From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun May 1 00:16:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 01:16:02 -0400 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <20050430233327.785fc488.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427201109.0115b870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <32185.217.196.231.69.1114691278.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <20050430233327.785fc488.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Unfortunately, a 4164 kit is 'rather late' for the IBM-PC. Now, if it > were a kit of nine 4116 chips for the original IBM PC1, it would be more > impressive. (the first generation IBM PC motherboard had four rows of > 16K DRAM chips with just the first row of nine soldered in, for a total > of 64K on the motherboard- any additional memory had to be on the I/O > channel.) I USED to have two of those first generation motherboards. > Yet another regret is that I don't have them anymore. Those are still cheap on ebay. > > From GOOI at oce.nl Sun May 1 03:46:14 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:46:14 +0200 Subject: Help: simulated OS/8 gen Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C29@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Dennis, this looks familiar to me :~) strugled with that too. With the help of Vince I got it OK (so far). Check www.pdp-11.nl and click the link "Homebrew PDP-8" at the left side, maybe it can be of help to you. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 1-5-2005 2:57 Subject: Help: simulated OS/8 gen Dear all, I'm trying to construct an OS/8 environment under SIMH. I'm trying to use an RK05 device for the SYS volume, but can't seem to get the BUILD procedure right. The OS/8 distribution I grabbed is dectape images of V3D from http://www.pdp8.net/images/images/misc_dectapes.shtml. Here's what I've done so far: sim> at dt0 Dectapes/AL-4711C-BA.tu56 DT0: 12b format, buffering file in memory sim> at dt1 Dectapes/AL-4712C-BA.tu56 DT1: 12b format, buffering file in memory sim> at rk0 sys.dsk sim> at rk1 user.dsk sim> b dt0 .R BUILD $ At this point, I can't seem to INSERT or SYS anything resembling an RK05 system disk. If I: $LOAD DTA1:RK08SY then I can: $SYS RK8:RKA0 but when I try to do BOOTSTRAP I get: $BO ?SYS $ I also fiddled with PIP and the /Y and /S flags, trying to just build a copy of the tape on the disk, to no avail. I'm sure I'm just a dunderhead. Can anyone provide some hints? Thanks, De From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 06:43:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:43:51 +0000 Subject: New Find: Apollo Workstation In-Reply-To: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1114947831.32283.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-30 at 23:24 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > Today at a local municipal auction I got an exciting new find: > > An H-P Apollo Series 735 Workstation. > > I blew it, in part, because all I got was the main system, an external > SCSI drive array (six differential SCSI drives in an HP box, with > wide-diff cable) and the external CDROM. Somebody else got the big > monitor (the main system has three BNC out video) Good-quality PC monitors will do sync-on-green quite happily by the way, so hack up a cable if needs be (or if you have an Iiyama display they've got BNC on the back anyway so it's easy) > and I never saw the keyboard, but it was probably there. These only use an HP-HIL keyboard from memory, so sourcing one of those should be pretty easy - it's the Domain keyboard on the earlier Apollos that's impossible to get hold of... > Will I be able to use this system over a serial console? I'm hoping it > will 'just come up' with whatever system is on the hard drive, though I > probably won't get past a login prompt. And won't be able to shut it down cleanly without a keyboard... I'd leave that for the moment if I were you! Console... hmm... I think the 7xx machines are really just stock HP boxes piggybacking on the Apollo name. One of the guys at the museum swears it will run Apollo's DomainOS (and that there was a port to the PA-RISC 7xx systems) but he's the only person I've ever heard that from. Earlier 68k-based Apollos certainly did support serial console as some of the range were specifically shipped without framebuffers for use as servers. > What OS did a system of this vintage run? By looking at chip markings, > etc, it appears to be about a 1990 vintage system. HP-UX and *BSD certainly - I think Linux too. See above though; I'm questionable about DomainOS (which is the interesting reason for owning an Apollo!) > I'm really upset with myself that I wasn't more 'on the ball' with this > system. Well it's not as bad as you may think. Proper keyboard and a suitable screen should be pretty easy to find, and the fact that it has a disk inside at least means there's a chance it has an intact OS. > I'm going to have to settle for serial console for the time being, if that's even possible. I'd pull the framebuffer, disconnect the internal disk, hook up a serial console, and see what happens to be honest. I can't see doing that breaking anything. I'm not sure if the lack of keyboard would be enough to convince it that it's running headless, but hopefully the lack of framebuffer will and there'll be the code in ROM to handle it. > Anyhow, it's a cool 'tall narrow' tower system to add to my collection > and it's beautifully high quality construction. Yep, we've got a couple, along with three 4xx machines (proper Apollos). Still short a couple of late-model Domain keyboards though, and one of the feet kits to allow the 4xx machines to stand upright... cheers Jules From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 07:03:58 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 05:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050501120358.9385.qmail@web53307.mail.yahoo.com> I had an 880 with the SCSi interface. It was a big Pertec to SCSI adapter that bolted right to the back of the drive. Wish I still had that adapter. I haven't seen one since. Brian. --- Tim Riker wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > I'm quite positive they were SCSI 1/2 mag tape > drives. However, some > > googling on the web seems to indicate that a TZ07 > is a 4mm dat? No, what > > I saw was clearly 1/2 mag tape, front loader, > horizontal drive. Reminded > > me of an M4 9914 or Cipher F880 or was it F990... > > F880 is shorter. M990 (not F) is the tallest. Then > came the M995S. > Simple googled page: > > http://www.electrovalueinc.com/9_track_drives.htm > > The M990 had a scsi option, but was pertec by > default. The F880 likely > had a scsi option as well. > > My M990 does not have the scsi interface, but I sure > wish it did. =( > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun May 1 07:41:56 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:41:56 -0400 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator in Basic References: <000d01c54d9b$f6e99520$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000901c54e4b$2a104430$0100a8c0@screamer> Yes, I have a paper tape reader emulator written in Visual Basic. GW Basic should be quick enough. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "Classic computer list" Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: Paper Tape Emulator in Basic > Hi, > > has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? I've had a go in > GW-BASIC, but I suspect that the implementation of the language is too > slow > to reliable drive the serial port - it doesn't always pick up the paper > advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). > > Will I have to go to a machine code routine to get the fast port access? > > I look forward to replies. > > Jim. > > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at > WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > From cmurray at eagle.ca Sun May 1 11:52:13 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:52:13 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net Message-ID: <200505011552.j41FqEF0024921@inferno.eagle.ca> I heartly concur. What a wonderful site indeed! And a great find you discovered. Kudos! Murray Message: 33 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:57:01 -0700 From: Marvin Johnston Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site To: ClassicCmp Message-ID: <4274538D.2A549180 at rain.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just ran across this site: http://www.1000bit.net/ It has some good information *and* photos of quite a few machines. The concept seems to be that people register and make public information about their machines. I had listed a bubble memory module (FBM43CA) on VCM with no knowledge of what it went to. The information on Norm's website at http://gallery.owt.com/~anheier/index.src told me that it goes to Fujitsu's first micro, an M-8. I *think* we have a nice find there! ------------------------------ From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 1 11:28:57 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some rack mount paper tape readers and some drums... Message-ID: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=584873&convertTo=USD Peter Wallace From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 1 11:30:34 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nova? Message-ID: I wonder if these are the Rolm Nova clone. They look old enough to be... http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=579804&convertTo=USD Peter Wallace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 1 14:15:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 15:15:24 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net Message-ID: <0IFT00IU3S5MXHDA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >From: Marvin Johnston >Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site > > >It has some good information *and* photos of quite a few machines. The >concept seems to be that people register and make public information >about their machines. I had listed a bubble memory module (FBM43CA) on >VCM with no knowledge of what it went to. The information on Norm's >website at http://gallery.owt.com/~anheier/index.src told me that it >goes to Fujitsu's first micro, an M-8. I *think* we have a nice find >there! > > >------------------------------ Speaking of bubble memory I have and use two BPK72 (intel 1MB BM evaluation module) for a few of my homebrew systems. 128kb is enough to be useful. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 15:08:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:08:26 +0000 Subject: PR1ME 750 Message-ID: <1114978106.32283.51.camel@weka.localdomain> grabbed a quick pic of the PR1ME 750 after we'd cleaned it all up: http://www.patooie.com/temp/prime750.jpg ... nothing quite like orange / brown / cream for a colour scheme! We've got a few spare PSUs (visible in the bottom-left of the image), plus a couple of spare CPU crates (to the right of the machine) with assorted boards intact. I'm waiting on the key for the rear doors to arrive in the mail before we can actually get inside (the cardcage is mounted backwards, so the boards are accessible from the rear). Some docs and a console terminal should be following on at a later date. Unfortunately the OS drive has long gone. These things use SMD drvies (and we have a few spare SMD disks kicking around) so that's not too much of a problem, but OS install media is possibly going to be tricky. Still, having a "VAX killer" to go alongside some of our other big machines is a Good Thing, even if booting it isn't possible right now... cheers Jules From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Sun May 1 13:42:02 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New Find: Apollo Workstation In-Reply-To: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Today at a local municipal auction I got an exciting new find: > An H-P Apollo Series 735 Workstation. Nice; the system I'm typing on (remotely) is a 735/125 . > I blew it, in part, because all I got was the main system, an external > SCSI drive array (six differential SCSI drives in an HP box, with > wide-diff cable) and the external CDROM. Somebody else got the big These are probably 2GB drives; you can still get 8GB drives. > monitor (the main system has three BNC out video) and I never saw the > keyboard, but it was probably there. What is the model number in the framebuffer? Some of the 735 framebuffers were really nice. > I only spied the system in the > mess of PC clones being sold as it came up for bid so I had to buy it in > a group with six other Intel boxes for $5. Shortly thereafter, and > before I noticed it, the monitor for it (marked HP, row of BNC > connectors on back, etc.) went for $1 to somebody else. SERIOUS > headslapping incident. The part that really bugs me is it likely went > to someone seeing 'big screen' and expecting a VGA connector on back. Too bad. But a good PC monitor that accepts sync on green will work. > I have a few questions for anybody on the list who has more experience > with Apollo workstations: > > Will I be able to use this system over a serial console? I'm hoping it > will 'just come up' with whatever system is on the hard drive, though I > probably won't get past a login prompt. This is the main way I use my > Sun boxes (serial console). Will it just sense the lack of a keyboard > and bring up serial port A? Sure, these can be used headless. You may have to reconfigure it "blind". Otherwise, I think that if you pull the framebuffer then the console will default to the serial port. > What OS did a system of this vintage run? By looking at chip markings, > etc, it appears to be about a 1990 vintage system. These can run HPUX 9.x and 10.2 . It is possible to install 11.0, but tricky as you have to know which stuff is 64-bit and leave it out. There were two varieties of 735; the original 99MHZ with an HPPA 7100 cpu and the 125 MHz with the newer HPPA 7150 cpu. The I/O cards needed to have the right PROM to support one or the other. > I'm really upset with myself that I wasn't more 'on the ball' with this > system. I know I saw the video cable (triple BNC) go away to somebody > else in another box they got really cheap, I saw the monitor there and > know it went for a dollar, and judging by the completeness of parts of > the system that I saw in boxes and the parts that I (thankfully) got, I > am fairly certain there was probably an HP keyboard in the mess, too. > I could have gotten a complete system here, and now I'm going to have to > settle for serial console for the time being, if that's even possible. Contact me off the list if you need install media. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 15:23:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:23:41 +0000 Subject: Microangelo S100 board(s) Message-ID: <1114979021.32266.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone able to tell me anything about this critter? Googles doesn't turn up much. It's something of a monster; a palette board plus three other S100 boards on a common bit of IDC cable, plus yet another S100 card with a Z80 on board (google suggests that this is just for controlling the graphics system, independant of the actual host system's CPU) I hate to think how expensive that all was when new. Anyone have docs / software / specs for the setup though? (we've now got a list of all the stray S100 boards we picked up the other week, plus an inventory of what's in all of those 19 Horizons that we got - soon as it lands in my inbox I'll post it to the list...) cheers Jules From James at jdfogg.com Sun May 1 15:30:47 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 16:30:47 -0400 Subject: PR1ME 750 Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045960@sbs.jdfogg.com> > grabbed a quick pic of the PR1ME 750 after we'd cleaned it all up: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/prime750.jpg > > ... nothing quite like orange / brown / cream for a colour scheme! I think this is the generation of PR1ME I worked on. It was a long time ago, in Framingham, MA. I was a Quality Engineer checking ECO work, reflow and component swaps for solder quality, revision levels and correctness. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 15:57:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:57:21 +0000 Subject: PR1ME 750 In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045960@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045960@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <1114981041.32266.61.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-05-01 at 16:30 -0400, James Fogg wrote: > > grabbed a quick pic of the PR1ME 750 after we'd cleaned it all up: > > > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/prime750.jpg > > > > ... nothing quite like orange / brown / cream for a colour scheme! > > I think this is the generation of PR1ME I worked on. It was a long time > ago, in Framingham, MA. I was a Quality Engineer checking ECO work, > reflow and component swaps for solder quality, revision levels and > correctness. To say that they must have been quite common machines at one point, there are very few left unfortunately - I'm surprised there aren't more survivors. Actually, I don't know of anyone else on this list who has any kind of PR1ME, but doubtless someone does... cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 1 12:32:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <42740A19.2050404@magnaspeed.net> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Apr 30, 5 05:43:37 pm Message-ID: > While we're on the topic, I've been trying to find an XT tech ref. I > want it for the BIOS listing of the hard drive adapter. This kind of It may not be in the XT TechRef!. Remember the XT motherboard BIOS does not support a hard disk, it just supports BIOS extension ROMs. The hard disk BIOS is on the hard disk controller card. That is covered (with BIOS source) in the Options and Adapters TechRef. Old XT TechRefs will also contain it (old == before the O&A TechRef, I think), later ones, like the one I have, do not. SO you might well really need an O&A TechRef. -tony From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun May 1 16:40:13 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:40:13 +0100 Subject: Anyone near Glasgow Message-ID: <26c11a640505011440417c09e0@mail.gmail.com> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5192249214&rd=1 Looks like there could be some good stuff here. Dan From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 1 16:55:58 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:55:58 +0100 Subject: Anyone near Glasgow In-Reply-To: <26c11a640505011440417c09e0@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640505011440417c09e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4275506E.9080809@gjcp.net> Dan Williams wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5192249214&rd=1 > > Looks like there could be some good stuff here. > > Dan > I'm in Glasgow, and I suspect I might be very near this guy. Weird, the two things mentioned on the mailing list in Glasgow (the other being the Sanyo CP/M-86 machine a while back) being 10 minutes from my house... Gordon. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 1 17:11:23 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:11:23 -0500 Subject: PR1ME 750 References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045960@sbs.jdfogg.com> <1114981041.32266.61.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <007a01c54e9a$b7e1b600$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > To say that they must have been quite common machines at one point, > there are very few left unfortunately - I'm surprised there aren't more > survivors. They were definitely common machines at one point... I worked on hundreds of them literally. > Actually, I don't know of anyone else on this list who has any kind of > PR1ME, but doubtless someone does... I know of a couple listmembers who have one or two... I don't, and would very much like one :) Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 1 17:15:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive Message-ID: I've noticed something odd with my 8" disk drive. It seems to produce a lot of errors on the last tracks on side 1 when using Anadisk. Anadisk will report "Gap in sector" and "Data error" errors, usually on tracks higher than 70, and always on side 1. The errors are also inconsistent. I use Anadisk to do a disk dump and note down the errors on one pass, then do it again and compare the errors on the second pass to the first and they are invariably different. I used the sector editor to read one track over and over several times. On most tries it gets errors. The errors are inconsistent from read to read. Sometimes some sectors will have "Gaps", other times data errors, and occasionally the entire track reads just fine. I have dumped some disks that are otherwise error free and the dumps have been consistent. What does "Gap in sectors" under Anadisk mean anyway? Is this just a case of disks that are just old and wearing out or something weird with my drive? Yes, I've cleaned the drive head, thoroughly. But that wouldn't explain why this is only happening on the higher tracks now, would it? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sun May 1 17:31:21 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:31:21 -0400 Subject: Anyone near Glasgow References: <26c11a640505011440417c09e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000b01c54e9d$80841920$3a92a8c0@maggie> that scsi card alone is worth 100-150# ;) but not the 300lbs to North America.. h "Dan Williams" wrote: >Subject: Anyone near Glasgow > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5192249214&rd=1 > > Looks like there could be some good stuff here. > > Dan From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun May 1 17:48:42 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:48:42 -0400 Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive Message-ID: <20050501224841.XNOM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Sellam, >What does "Gap in sectors" under Anadisk mean anyway? It means that ANADISK saw gaps in the sector numbering. For example, it might have seen sectors: 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 In this case there is a "gap" which is sector #5 missing. Note, it is entirely possible to format a diskette with missing sectors - but most people didn't do it - it most likely indicates that ANADISK failed to read one sector, which is why it reports this as a warning. >Is this just a case of disks that are just old and wearing out or >something weird with my drive? The higher the track, the smaller the "circle" on the disk with the data, hence the more densly packed the bits are - which can lead to more errors - this is also the area where head alignment etc. can be most critical, and worn drives do tend to give more errors on the inner tracks. But it's may also be a incompatibility between the diskette format and the PC disk controller (I am assuming this is the 8" drive that you have hooked up to a PC). The PC disk controller cannot handle gaps sizes as small as some other systems did - For example, I find that Cromemco disks do not read reliably on my PC. The interesting thing is that certain sectors consistantly do not read on one PC, while DIFFERENT sector(s) may not read reliable on a different PC. When I was working on my replacement for TELEDISK (which I still have not gotten back to), I found that I could sometimes read all the sectors by re-reading the same track multiple times (however at that point you lose the ability to detect the exact interleave), but sometimes even reading the track 50 times would not yield all the sectors. On a different PC, I could read a different set of sectors with about the same reliability. One thing I wanted to add to the program was the ability to merge multiple images read from different PCs into one to "collect" all the sectors. I also found that slowing the drive slightly can make a big improvement on reading some types of disks... (and of course - none of this may actually relate to the problem you are having ... just some of my experiences to help you figure it out) If you format a disk from the PC can you read it back reliably? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 1 17:54:23 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:54:23 -0500 Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive References: Message-ID: <001001c54ea0$bbb5b9b0$223cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 5:15 PM > I've noticed something odd with my 8" disk drive. It seems to produce a > lot of errors on the last tracks on side 1 when using Anadisk. Anadisk > will report "Gap in sector" and "Data error" errors, usually on tracks > higher than 70, and always on side 1. The errors are also inconsistent. > I use Anadisk to do a disk dump and note down the errors on one pass, then > do it again and compare the errors on the second pass to the first and > they are invariably different. I used the sector editor to read one track > over and over several times. On most tries it gets errors. The errors > are inconsistent from read to read. Sometimes some sectors will have > "Gaps", other times data errors, and occasionally the entire track reads > just fine. > > I have dumped some disks that are otherwise error free and the dumps have > been consistent. > > What does "Gap in sectors" under Anadisk mean anyway? > > Is this just a case of disks that are just old and wearing out or > something weird with my drive? > > Yes, I've cleaned the drive head, thoroughly. But that wouldn't explain > why this is only happening on the higher tracks now, would it? > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Every disk drive has a unique alignment, this means that one drive can read/write disks created on it but may have problems in another drive. You can make slight a slight alignment adjustment and see if the errors are worse or not. If the errors are worse move alignment the other way. "Gap in sectors" refers to Anadisk assuming that there are missing sectors, this can happen when data is misread and Anadisk believes there is an odd sector number. Having a disk drive "perfectly" aligned does not mean you can read all disks, if the disk was written with a mis-aligned drive and you need to read the data then you must adjust your drive to closely match the original drive. Recovery can also be done with multiple drives where some drives can read some tracks but not others, later the track data can be cut and pasted together. Even after aligning a drive it will still be unique for numerous reasons. Alignment refers to setting many mechanical adjustments on a drive to optimized tolerances, on two sided drives you need to offset each head off-center of tolerance to average them to optimized alignment. Alignment is generally based on adjusting track 00 and the center of the disk, this means that the last tracks are least likely to be within tolerance. As stated above the problem can be either your drive or the original drive but the result remains the same. If you must read the disk you can play with the drive but be careful you may not be able to restore the drive without the proper alignment disks & tools. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sun May 1 18:33:39 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 19:33:39 -0400 Subject: this is a crime - help ban vaxbars! References: <001001c54ea0$bbb5b9b0$223cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <002c01c54ea6$3462b930$3a92a8c0@maggie> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=5192324601&rd=1 People who rape and pillage good machines for making furniture or worse, just stealing the consoles should be shot! h From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun May 1 18:44:32 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 1 May 05 23:44:32 GMT Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor Message-ID: <0505012344.AA27072@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I have a Viewsonic PT813 21" CRT monitor, a very high-end professional model that I was told used to cost $1800 new (1997), has both DE15 and BNC inputs and supports both PeeCee video and sync on green. Unfortunately it is malfunctioning - the picture is smudged to the point of being totally unreadable. It seems like some component in its circuitry went bad - I don't think it's the CRT - so it's probably fixable. The person who sold it to me has agreed to refund me what I paid for it and let me keep the broken monitor, and OKed me offering it for free to the list. Since I believe it to be fixable, but lack the time, tools and skills necessary to do so, I offer it for free to anyone who thinks he can fix it. If fixed it would make a great monitor for classic computers, and has the added bonus that the VS3100 GPX board firmware is perfectly happy with this monitor connected (as I wrote in my other posts, it often throws up a tantrum with other perfectly good SoG monitors). So if you fix it, it should work beautifully with VS3100 GPX, VS3100 SPX, other DEC and other classic workstations. The monitor is near San Diego, California. If you want it, you must come and pick it up. I lack the materials and skills to properly pack it for shipping (if I shipped it, you would get a pile of broken plastic and glass instead of a bad-but-fixable monitor), and I don't even have a car to take it to a shipping store that could pack it for me. MS From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 18:46:04 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 00:46:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microangelo S100 board(s) Message-ID: <20050501234604.16390.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Some info here .. http://www.infinetivity.com/~delscott/frames/ua.htm Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 1 18:48:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 23:48:32 +0000 Subject: S100 haul - board inventory Message-ID: <1114991312.32283.97.camel@weka.localdomain> As promised - here's the list of all *loose* S100 boards we got. There are more inside the Northstars and the Minstrel S100 machines of course, so more yet to come :-) (We've looked inside the Northstars though and there's nothing *that* fancy inside - some are empty, others have just typical CPU / RAM / Floppy boards inside. One has a floating-point board from memory) CPU ----- 4 x Cromenco ZPU Ithaca IA1010 Z80 CPU Board NorthStar ZPB Z80 CPU Board HiTech SPAM Z80 CPU Board Morrow MPZ80 Z80 CPU Board JC Systems MCM80 Z80 CPU Board Polymorphic CPU 8080 CPU Video ------- Microdiversions Inc. Microangelo (5 board set) 7 x Microdiversions Inc. ScreenSplitter 3 sets - Vector Graphics 8K High-Res Graphics (2 board set) Memory (RAM / ROM) --------------------------- 3 x Measurement Systems & Control Inc. DMB6400 RAM Board 2 x Integrated Micro Products T256 256K RAM Board 3 x NorthStar 32K DRAM 32K Dynamic RAM Boards 4 x Industrial Micro Systems 8K Static RAM 2 x Godbout RAM20 64K Static RAM Boards Ithaca 2708/2716 Board 7 x CDC 64K RAM boards (variously populated) Godbout Econoram 2A 8K? RAM Board 9 x NorthStar RAM32A 32K RAM Board Transam ME3 EPROM Interface Board 3 x Comart CRAM64 64K RAM Board 2 x Cromenco 64KZ 64K RAM Board 2 x Heathkit H8 8K RAM Board Compupro Econoram X3A 32K RAM Board 3 x NorthStar RAM16 16K RAM Board 3 x ThinkerToys SuperRAM 16 16K RAM Board 2 x Godbout Econoram 2 RAM Board H-TE SAM64K 64K DRAM Board Godbout RAMXX 64K RAM Board NorthStar HRAM6 64K RAM Board SSM CyberRAM EPROM Interface Board Cromenco 16KPR EEPROM Interface Board Cromenco 8K BiteSaver 2 8K ROM Board Disk controllers -------------------- 12 sets - Xcomp SA1000/ST506 (ST506 Interface, 2 board set) Data Technology Corp. DTC10-1 SASI Controller 4 x NorthStar MDSAD3 Micro Disk Controller 3 x H-TE HTE-DC Disk Controller Morrow Winchester Controller (SMD) 2 x Microcomplex PhaseLock 2 Disk Controller 3 x Cromenco 4FDC Disk Controller Compupro Disk 1 Disk Controller 5 x Xcomp 1785-02 Single board of SA1000/ST506 Interface 2 x Xcomp 1790-03 Single board of SA1000/ST506 Interface 4 x Interam Disk Controller JC Systems SASI / Floppy SASI / Floppy Controller Tarbell Electronics MD2022 Floppy Disk Controller Serial controllers --------------------- Morrow MULT/IO Multiple I/O Interface NorthStar HSIO-4 4 Port Serial Card 6 x HiTech PAM (Serial Interface?) CityUni 4SRLIO Serial Interface 3 x Cromenco TUART Serial Interface 2 x Compupro Interfacer 2 Channel Serial Board Misc ----- DRC/BEC S100 SFX Generator 4 x Morrow Wunderbuss BackPlane IO Reseach Limited Pluto/S100 Interface Bob Mullen TV4 S100 Extender with On-Board Logic Analyser SSM 2708/2716 Programmer Godbout CP1 Active Terminator 2 x Cromenco D+7A IO (A/D Conversion?) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun May 1 19:23:53 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: this is a crime - help ban vaxbars! In-Reply-To: <002c01c54ea6$3462b930$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <001001c54ea0$bbb5b9b0$223cd7d1@randylaptop> <002c01c54ea6$3462b930$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <42757319.6070700@pacbell.net> Heinz Wolter wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=5192324601&rd=1 > > People who rape and pillage good machines for making furniture or worse, > just stealing the consoles should be shot! > h This machine was partially stripped before the seller came into possesion of it. Its previous owner had used it as a parts box to keep several other machines running. Those other machines (a 780 and two 785s), as well as many additional usable parts from the stripped machine, were rescued last weekend. I admit to not being too fond of the idea of a VAXbar, but it is better to do something useful and interesting with the cabinet than to simply scrap it for the metal. --Bill From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 19:42:25 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PR1ME 750 In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502004225.64195.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> Please no flames.... but back in my younger days when I used to (hack?) the Telenet X25 PADs, it seemed like every other machine I ran into was a Prime with its familiar "Primos" banner. I also had a grad student that worked for me that HATED the one he used in school so much that he bought it years later at the Universities surplus auction, held a party and handed out sledge hammers to everyone. You can guess the rest. Of all the years purusing the salvage yards, I have never seem one. Interesting. Brian. --- Jay West wrote: > It was written.... > > To say that they must have been quite common > machines at one point, > > there are very few left unfortunately - I'm > surprised there aren't more > > survivors. > They were definitely common machines at one point... > I worked on hundreds of > them literally. > > > Actually, I don't know of anyone else on this list > who has any kind of > > PR1ME, but doubtless someone does... > I know of a couple listmembers who have one or > two... > > I don't, and would very much like one :) > > Jay West > > > From vrs at msn.com Sun May 1 20:19:22 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:19:22 -0700 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: OK, here's the followup on my attempt to make an RL02 "0": http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/zero.html I think it turned out pretty well for a first attempt. (I did break the "1" getting it out of the mold, though.) Vince From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 20:37:08 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for../DEC questions Message-ID: <20050502013709.34996.qmail@web53308.mail.yahoo.com> First.. I am looking for SDI drive cables for a PDP 11/84 that I just picked up at the salvage yard. Its in great condition but unfortunately, it was deinstalled with wire snips. Also looking for a manual, DEUNA, RL11 for it as well. Haven't tested the RA80 that came with it but the RA60 sounds like it needs bearings BAD. Any suggestions on restoring this RA60 would be appreciated. Is it true that that the NPG jumpers are missing on all of the slots requiring the G727A grant cards? Also looking for anything on the VAX 6000 series. I have a 6000-510 that I would like to load up. Looking for extra CPU cards and any XMI options. Also would like to find a VAXBI backplane for it as well as VAXBI modules. I have some original IBM PC's, a Kaypro, HP laserjet printers, maybe some SUN stuff and I have a SUN V100 to trade for something really good. I have access to a lot of surplus older SUN's and Apples too for decent trades. Thanks, Brian. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 1 22:53:51 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 23:53:51 -0400 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") In-Reply-To: References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 5/1/05, vrs wrote: > OK, here's the followup on my attempt to make an RL02 "0": > > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/zero.html > > I think it turned out pretty well for a first attempt. Nice job. I was recently going through a box of plastic bits (to put away the handles I got from you, coincidentally), and found a 6 and a 7, from an RK07, no doubt (since the RL01/RL02 switches top out at 3)... IIRC, one can use them modulo 3 in an RL01/RL02 (i.e., these would work as 2 and 3) if one doesn't happen to have a full load of RK07s to populate with numbers. My recollection of the old days was that 1s and 2s were harder to find that 0s, but probably because we never misplaced our 0s... they were right there on the system drives. Somewhere in some old DEC reseller's warehouse there has to be an enormous box of numbers... much like teeth in the fabled elephant's graveyard. Anyway, nice work with the molds, Vince... as you get better at things, perhaps you might work your way up to PDP-11/70 toggles (no... I don't have any examples to mold from; my 11/70 panel came partially pre-stripped (thanks again, Jay!)) -ethan -ethan From drb at msu.edu Sun May 1 23:05:22 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 00:05:22 -0400 Subject: PR1ME 750 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 01 May 2005 20:08:26 -0000.) <1114978106.32283.51.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1114978106.32283.51.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200505020405.j4245MUn020893@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > http://www.patooie.com/temp/prime750.jpg > > I'm waiting on the key for the rear doors to arrive in the mail > before we can actually get inside (the cardcage is mounted backwards, > so the boards are accessible from the rear). > > Unfortunately the OS drive has long gone. These things use SMD drvies > (and we have a few spare SMD disks kicking around) so that's not too > much of a problem, but OS install media is possibly going to be tricky. Oooh, jealous. If you strike out on keys, I should have one I could copy. Don't forget that Prime SMD drives were formatted with 2080 byte sectors. As far as I know, all Primes were rigged with the card cage as you describe. My 2550 sits in the garage awaiting time, SMD disk, and install media, so if you get lucky on the latter, I'd love to mooch a copy. I have a few tapes laying around that I'm having trouble reading -- anyone have an affordable program that reads MAGSAV tapes? Theoretically they contain my home directory, our utilities collection, may be some Prime Australia tools. Not sure if I have OS source or compilers. Pretty sure I don't have install tapes though. Also on the project list, digging out the boxes of manuals and building a list of what I have. De From napier at waste.org Mon May 2 00:29:30 2005 From: napier at waste.org (John Napier) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:29:30 -0700 Subject: PR1ME 750 In-Reply-To: <20050502004225.64195.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050502004225.64195.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4275BABA.7090309@waste.org> Brian Roth wrote: > Please no flames.... but back in my younger days when I used to > (hack?) the Telenet X25 PADs, it seemed like every other machine I > ran into was a Prime with its familiar "Primos" banner. I also had a > grad student that worked for me that HATED the one he used in school > so much that he bought it years later at the Universities surplus > auction, held a party and handed out sledge hammers to everyone. You > can guess the rest. There was one at Harvey Mudd College -- it was hated by the programmers there as well. If I remember correctly, it was 8086-like in that it was a 16 bit architecture extended to address more memory, probably via segments. I do remember that arrays were limited to 64K. - J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 2 00:33:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 01:33:29 -0400 Subject: TSZ07 (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") In-Reply-To: <200504291414.j3TEEsgf018158@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <002701c54c35$ed06a320$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <200504291414.j3TEEsgf018158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Ashley Carder" wrote: > > > >I have a TSZ07, but I haven't tried to use it yet. Does anyone > >know what operating systems I can use it with on a PC? > > I'm assuming the linux scsi driver will "just work". I may try today. It does. When I first got my TSZ07 a few years ago, I pulled out an Adaptec 1640 PCMCIA SCSI card, threw it in my RedHat laptop, and was sending 'mt' commands a few seconds later. What I could use is a good breakdown of available tools to pull some old VMS backups off of some of my 1600 bpi tapes... I have used a variety of tools over the years, but do not know what the current 'best' tools are. Initially, I just want to preserve the backup archives themselves, but I also need to extract some C source code from the archives. ISTR 'vmstar' was one tool I used more than ten years ago. Not sure if it has been supplanted or is still the tool of choice. I really don't know what folks recommend for the initial extraction. I am sure 'dd' will work, but I'm/ curious what might work better/more reliably/more simply. -ethan From GOOI at oce.nl Mon May 2 01:51:25 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:51:25 +0200 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C2D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hello Ethan, I have 3 RK07 drives (two connected) and I have no READY "buttons" with numbers higher than 3. So before you start a job on your 6 or 7, would you consider a trade? You get a 2 and a 3 (or whatever you want), and I get the 6 and the 7. Instead of working with a rasp to remove some plastic, you have to walk to the Post Office :~) kind regards, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: maandag 2 mei 2005 5:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want > is a "0") > > > On 5/1/05, vrs wrote: > > OK, here's the followup on my attempt to make an RL02 "0": > > > > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/zero.html > > > > I think it turned out pretty well for a first attempt. > > Nice job. I was recently going through a box of plastic bits (to put > away the handles I got from you, coincidentally), and found a 6 and a > 7, from an RK07, no doubt (since the RL01/RL02 switches top out at > 3)... IIRC, one can use them modulo 3 in an RL01/RL02 (i.e., these > would work as 2 and 3) if one doesn't happen to have a full load of > RK07s to populate with numbers. > > My recollection of the old days was that 1s and 2s were harder to find > that 0s, but probably because we never misplaced our 0s... they were > right there on the system drives. Somewhere in some old DEC > reseller's warehouse there has to be an enormous box of numbers... > much like teeth in the fabled elephant's graveyard. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 2 02:38:22 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 03:38:22 -0400 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C2D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C2D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: On 5/2/05, Gooijen H wrote: > Hello Ethan, > > I have 3 RK07 drives (two connected) and I have no READY "buttons" > with numbers higher than 3. So before you start a job on your 6 > or 7, would you consider a trade? You get a 2 and a 3 (or whatever > you want), and I get the 6 and the 7. Instead of working with a > rasp to remove some plastic, you have to walk to the Post Office :~) I had no plans to modify my higher numbers. I was trying to suggest to people that if they had access to higher numbers they could use them intact in an RL01/RL02 and the drive itself would treat them as lower numbers (there are 2 microswitches in the RL drives, 3 in the RK drives). I would be willing to loan my numbers to Vince to copy (if he wants to try), but since they are the only ones I have over 3 as well, I'd prefer not to trade them away. I used to have a pair of RK07 drives and a score of packs, but they didn't survive the closing of Software Results 12 years ago (I had to leave them behind because they were too large to transport/store). Someday, I hope to replace them, but it's not a huge priority (they are easier to repair than more modern drives, but on a MB/volume/kWH curve, they are hard to justify for heavy usage). -ethan From GOOI at oce.nl Mon May 2 03:11:18 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:11:18 +0200 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C30@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ok, Ethan. I had the impression you were searching for a 2 or 3, and was thinking of doing a "job" on a 'READY' 6 or 7. I do not need the 6 or 7 as I will never have that many RK07 drives for several reasons - limited space for one, power, cables, etc. It is all in my museum, so hardly "heavy use" here :~) The 6 and 7 were a nice addition to my collection (hint - hint). Actually, I have never seen a 'READY' higher than 3! I hope to install the 230VAC power cabling within a few weeks. 6 groups, secured with 16A. fuses, but those 6 groups are derived from a single 3-phase 25 A. source. So I can "only" load the six 16A groups to a max of say 70A provided the load is distributed evenly. But running a 11/70 with TU77 and two RM03's ... yeah. I have an option to "upgrade" the 3-phase connection to 3x 35 A but I guess I will be needing an airco too when drawing that much! cheers, - Henk. > On 5/2/05, Gooijen H wrote: > > Hello Ethan, > > > > I have 3 RK07 drives (two connected) and I have no READY "buttons" > > with numbers higher than 3. So before you start a job on your 6 > > or 7, would you consider a trade? You get a 2 and a 3 (or whatever > > you want), and I get the 6 and the 7. Instead of working with a > > rasp to remove some plastic, you have to walk to the Post Office :~) > > I had no plans to modify my higher numbers. I was trying to suggest > to people that if they had access to higher numbers they could use > them intact in an RL01/RL02 and the drive itself would treat them as > lower numbers (there are 2 microswitches in the RL drives, 3 in the > RK drives). > > I would be willing to loan my numbers to Vince to copy (if he wants > to try), but since they are the only ones I have over 3 as well, I'd > prefer not to trade them away. I used to have a pair of RK07 drives > and a score of packs, but they didn't survive the closing of Software > Results 12 years ago (I had to leave them behind because they were > too large to transport/store). > Someday, I hope to replace them, but it's not a huge priority (they > are easier to repair than more modern drives, but on a MB/volume/kWH > curve, they are hard to justify for heavy usage). > > -ethan From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon May 2 06:03:37 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:03:37 +0100 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <200504271630.JAA09436@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <012501c54f06$a955d5a0$0200a8c0@geoff> > Hi > It is a little more complicated than that. You method would just make > a big pile of hot radioactive mess. No boom. If you put it in something > that would also evaporate, you could make a mess like Chernobel (sp?). Chernobyl. Which reminds me : Q. Why is a badly made pair of underpants reminiscent of a nuclear accident ? A. Chernobyl fallout. :>) Geoff. From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon May 2 07:40:06 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:40:06 EDT Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <13e.1265fb98.2fa779a6@aol.com> Check to see if the armature for the selector magnet is vibrating or "buzzing". If it is, there are 2 computer grade caps in the call control unit that have to be changed. Very common problem on 33's. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon May 2 08:27:43 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:27:43 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff> I guess nobody in DC watches Classic Star Trek and installed "manual over rides". Funny in WWI & WWII warships worked well with out puters but then they had 'sound powered phones" for commication on ship -- no electricty needed -- just wire between phones. Many years ago the husband of my wife's friend- who is an officer on a naval destoyer- was in a local port , and invited me on board - I was working there at the time - as part of a pr exercise in the locality. After the meal and g&t's I was given a tour of the ship -including the missile bay . Everything was hard wired and relay based - partly a distrust of software but mostly as protection against emp. Before we went in he said " If the fire alarm - or any alarm - goes off , hold your breath and bugger off out" - it wasn't a big space . Apparently the whole area gets flooded with halon ( sp?) to quickly absorb any oxygen from the air , so if you hang about ........ Geoff. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon May 2 08:45:32 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:45:32 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com><4269508F.6010005@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050422205613.W1279@localhost> Message-ID: <02ea01c54f1d$3d944420$0200a8c0@geoff> > > I wonder if the quality of AM radio ( not counting the decline in music > > taste) > > has gone down since every thing uses soild state diodes as compared to tube > > diodes. > > No. Narrow IFs and lack of design attention due to declining > worthwhile content on AM (plus novelty of FM in the '60s) and > other factors all conspired to make it sound crappy. > There was a design - in the late 60's?- which used a detector which demodulted both upper and lower am sidebands and fed the result to separate speakers. Apparently the effect during night time fading was exceptional. Anybody recall anything about this - Tony ? Sorry if this is ot. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon May 2 09:08:17 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:08:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> <02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> > Apparently > the whole area gets flooded with halon ( sp?) to quickly absorb any oxygen > from the air , so if you hang about ........ > > Geoff. > Ah yes, halon, we have two big tanks of those also hangin in our systems room. There's also a big red light on the outside of that room for obvious reasons.... From allain at panix.com Mon May 2 09:09:14 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:09:14 -0400 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C2D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <002e01c54f20$85d36a60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/zero.html > > > > I think it turned out pretty well for a first attempt. Thank-You for doing this! Best thing to do to save time is to mass-produce an all-legs-out button and just cut the right legs at the last minute to get whatever number a person needs. In some ID'ing systems this is either the first or last digit in the series, on other systems this digit may be an impossible hybrid that would always have to be cut first, EG number 7 in 0..6. Don't know if this has been suggested already, anyway it has been now. John A. From vrs at msn.com Mon May 2 09:11:40 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 07:11:40 -0700 Subject: I made a zero (was Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0") References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C30@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: From: "Gooijen H" > Ok, Ethan. > I had the impression you were searching for a 2 or 3, > and was thinking of doing a "job" on a 'READY' 6 or 7. While Ethan wasn't planning anything like that, there were several others who proposed modifying drives, filing drive keys, and what-not, which is what prompted me to see if the keys were as easy to make as they seemed. Which they are. However, the weekend seems to have delayed the flood of people interested in acquiring a replica "0" :-). BTW, I did some calculations, and it takes about $10 worth of rubber material to make a small mold like this. And about $1 worth of resin material to make each pair of castings. Vince From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 2 09:17:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 10:17:33 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> <4269508F.6010005@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050422205613.W1279@localhost> <02ea01c54f1d$3d944420$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <17014.13949.938773.85410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Geoffrey" == Geoffrey Thomas writes: >> No. Narrow IFs and lack of design attention due to declining >> worthwhile content on AM (plus novelty of FM in the '60s) and >> other factors all conspired to make it sound crappy. >> Geoffrey> There was a design - in the late 60's?- which used a Geoffrey> detector which demodulted both upper and lower am sidebands Geoffrey> and fed the result to separate speakers. Apparently the Geoffrey> effect during night time fading was exceptional. Anybody Geoffrey> recall anything about this - Tony ? Sorry if this is ot. Don't know about back then, but recently (within the past year) there was an article about a receiver using that approach. It probably was in the ham radio publication QEX, and I think that it was by Wes Hayward -- or at least he was connected in some way. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 2 09:21:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:21:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for../DEC questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 01 May 2005 18:37:08 PDT." <20050502013709.34996.qmail@web53308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200505021421.j42ELfGf011404@mwave.heeltoe.com> Brian Roth wrote: > >Haven't tested the RA80 that came with it I could use an RA80 HDA if you (or anyone else) has one they don't need. I have a full RA80 box, but no HDA for it. You probably want the ra80 for your '84, however. No idea about ra60's, sorry. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 2 09:26:35 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 May 2005 16:08:17 +0200." <33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <200505021426.j42EQZ34012621@mwave.heeltoe.com> birs23 at zeelandnet.nl wrote: >> >Ah yes, halon, we have two big tanks of those also hangin in our systems >room. There's also a big red light on the outside of that room for obvious >reasons.... It's not just halon - in those 'sealed' computer rooms if the refrigerant leaks you can get a nasty suprise when you walk in and take a big deep breath. Years ago we almost lost one of our backup operators. Fortunately someone heard the "clunk" when he hit the floor and dragged him out. (I think of all the time I spent in those rooms alone at night. hummm.) -brad From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 2 09:49:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 07:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive In-Reply-To: <20050501224841.XNOM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > It means that ANADISK saw gaps in the sector numbering. > For example, it might have seen sectors: > 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 > In this case there is a "gap" which is sector #5 missing. Gee, why can't it just say, "I didn't find sector 5" instead of the message it gives, which is akin to, "Hey, I did find a sector between 11-20...guess which one?" > The higher the track, the smaller the "circle" on the disk with the > data, hence the more densly packed the bits are - which can lead to > more errors - this is also the area where head alignment etc. can be > most critical, and worn drives do tend to give more errors on the > inner tracks. Makes sense I suppose. > But it's may also be a incompatibility between the diskette format and > the PC disk controller (I am assuming this is the 8" drive that you > have hooked up to a PC). Yes, 8" drive. It works fine for the most part. I can even format a disk with DOS and write files to it, read them back, etc. > The PC disk controller cannot handle gaps sizes as small as some > other systems did - For example, I find that Cromemco disks do not > read reliably on my PC. The interesting thing is that certain sectors > consistantly do not read on one PC, while DIFFERENT sector(s) may not > read reliable on a different PC. I would sometimes get back different errors from the same disk. > reliability. One thing I wanted to add to the program was the ability to > merge multiple images read from different PCs into one to "collect" all > the sectors. This would be useful. > If you format a disk from the PC can you read it back reliably? Yes. Thanks for the input. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From drb at msu.edu Mon May 2 10:04:06 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:04:06 -0400 Subject: PR1ME 750 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 01 May 2005 22:29:30 PDT.) <4275BABA.7090309@waste.org> References: <4275BABA.7090309@waste.org> <20050502004225.64195.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200505021504.j42F46IA000498@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > There was one at Harvey Mudd College -- it was hated by the programmers > there as well. If I remember correctly, it was 8086-like in that it > was a 16 bit architecture extended to address more memory, probably > via segments. I do remember that arrays were limited to 64K. Yes, 50-series machines had segmented architecture. Most code since 1980 or earlier ran in 64k segments. IIRC, 64R-mode code was limited to one segment; 64V-mode code could span many. Older addressing modes were limited to 16- or 32-k. In theory, the compilers would allow data structures to cross segment boundaries, but in practice, they often had bugs that prevented such behavior from working correctly. I was bitten several times by large array issues. Since it was all virtual, the usual mapping had user code in segments 4000-4???; stack was in segments 6000 and up. The OS lived in (some of) the first thousand (octal) segments. Seems like the shared code segment bits of various products (compilers, MIDASPLUS, etc.) lived in the 2000 range. De From vrs at msn.com Mon May 2 10:06:05 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:06:05 -0700 Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > On Sun, 1 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > It means that ANADISK saw gaps in the sector numbering. > > For example, it might have seen sectors: > > 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 > > In this case there is a "gap" which is sector #5 missing. > > Gee, why can't it just say, "I didn't find sector 5" instead of the > message it gives, which is akin to, "Hey, I did find a sector between > 11-20...guess which one?" Perhaps it is an accident that #5 was the one dropped (in the example). If the problem is that the controller chip isn't quite keeping up with the sectors rotating by, then which sector gets dropped may not be quite deterministic. In that case, it might be better to issue a general complaint, rather than an overly specific one. Vince From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon May 2 10:30:19 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:30:19 +0200 Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive References: Message-ID: <000c01c54f2b$d92b78a0$2101a8c0@finans> > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > On Sun, 1 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > It means that ANADISK saw gaps in the sector numbering. > > > For example, it might have seen sectors: > > > 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 > > > In this case there is a "gap" which is sector #5 missing. > > > > Gee, why can't it just say, "I didn't find sector 5" instead of the > > message it gives, which is akin to, "Hey, I did find a sector between > > 11-20...guess which one?" Could it be the case the the sectors you try to read have a length <> 512 ? I can very well imagine a situation where a PC-based floppy disk controller cannot handle off-size sectors very well. It will then probably have to do some error recovery (or whatever), and might miss the start of the next sector. Have your tried Octopus ? It has a very powerful dump routine. IIRC you can also specify the sequence in which the sectors are to be read. Nico From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 10:30:56 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 08:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for../DEC questions In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502153056.4958.qmail@web53301.mail.yahoo.com> Brad, Looks like tgis is a good one so I will be hanging onto it for now. I'll let you know if I come across another one. Brian. --- Brad Parker wrote: > > Brian Roth wrote: > > > >Haven't tested the RA80 that came with it > > I could use an RA80 HDA if you (or anyone else) has > one they don't need. > I have a full RA80 box, but no HDA for it. > > You probably want the ra80 for your '84, however. > > No idea about ra60's, sorry. > > -brad > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:16:53 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:16:53 +0100 Subject: RA7x OCP pinout In-Reply-To: <1114857604.10366.2.camel@mldek.lan> Message-ID: <009d01c54f32$5bdfcd40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Michael Loeblich wrote: > The are 20 pins at the RA7x OCP interface. I found RA81 OCP > pins, but this is different. Can anybody help with a pinout or > link? > Michael If you want RA81 details, I assume one of these manuals at least can help: http://vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra81 I'm reasonably sure that I have at least one RA7x manual scanned somewhere but it does not appear on Manx: http://vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra7 I'll see if I can dig it out and let you know. Remind me in a few days when I've forgotten :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 11:31:03 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:31:03 +0100 Subject: this is a crime - help ban vaxbars! In-Reply-To: <42757319.6070700@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <009e01c54f34$5698df00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> William Maddox wrote: > I admit to not being too fond of the idea of a VAXbar, but it > is better to do something useful and interesting with the > cabinet than to simply scrap it for the metal. > > --Bill If pretty sure that "defboo" is connected with the DFWLUG people who were collecting documentation in order to scan it and make it available. So this is probably part of that large sale mentioned a while ago here. Perhaps they realised that they could not get rid of it all in one go? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 2 11:37:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper Tape Emulator Message-ID: <200505021637.JAA12594@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jim There are several things that can couse problems. It might be that you are being too fast, not too slow. Most of the newer serial chips hold a larger buffer. Several characters may be buffered up in the chip. You need to make sure that the character has been sent and that you've waited for enough delay time for your other machine to respond before sending another character to the serial chip. You can't just handshake on the status lines from the serial chip. You may have to look at the time chip for timing information. Also, I assume you are using the system calls. If not, you may have issues if your running under windows or in a DOS box under windows because windows thinks it owns the serial and will periodically steal characters from the input. There is a way to remove a serial port from windows but I've never tried it for this particular problem. Dwight >From: "Jim Beacon" >Hi, > >has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? I've had a go in >GW-BASIC, but I suspect that the implementation of the language is too slow >to reliably drive the serial port - it doesn't always pick up the paper >advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). > >Will I have to go to a machine code routine to get the fast port access? > >I look forward to replies. > >Jim. > >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 2 12:12:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:12:33 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> <02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff> <33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <42765F81.nail6Z211BS1U@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Apparently the whole area gets flooded with halon (sp?) to quickly absorb > any oxygen from the air, so if you hang about ...... "Absorb any oxygen" is a bit harsh. Halon is pretty good at stopping things from burning but it doesn't make it impossible to breathe. It's not the most healthy thing to breathe but in the 80's and earlier a very common demo of halon extinguishers had the salesman in a halon filled booth, demonstrating how all fires go out, while happily breathing the stuff. Now, CO2 oxygen-displacement extinguishers, that's a different story. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 2 12:23:26 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:23:26 -0400 Subject: this is a crime - help ban vaxbars! In-Reply-To: <009e01c54f34$5698df00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <009e01c54f34$5698df00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <4276620E.nail72S1A9COA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [Selling the VAX 11/780 turned into vaxbar] I'm pretty sure that the original vaxbar conversion took place around 1990 or so. It's been going on for a while, and if this is indeed the original vaxbar then perhaps it has some value as being the original conversion. You can rail about preservation all you want, but 11/780's were cranked out by the hundreds of thousands and they are not the easiest system to keep operational (as compared to a similarly-powerful desktop Microvax). It's akin to getting a scrapyard Model T (to choose a car that was as commonly produced as the 11/780) and turning it into a hot rod with few original components other than a heavily modified frame. Yeah, the Model T certainly has collector value, but earlier it had value as common and easily found! Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 2 12:30:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:30:33 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0IFV006LPHYWZFCG@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com > Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:12:33 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Apparently the whole area gets flooded with halon (sp?) to quickly absorb >> any oxygen from the air, so if you hang about ...... > >"Absorb any oxygen" is a bit harsh. Halon is pretty good at stopping >things from burning but it doesn't make it impossible to breathe. It's >not the most healthy thing to breathe but in the 80's and earlier a >very common demo of halon extinguishers had the salesman in a halon filled >booth, demonstrating how all fires go out, while happily breathing the >stuff. > >Now, CO2 oxygen-displacement extinguishers, that's a different story. > >Tim. Halon does not absob Oxygen. It is an Oxygen displacement that is also heavier than air. In a closed room if enough is introduced under pressure (typically) it will push out all air (Oxygen too) leaving an unbreathable and incombustable mix. Because computer rooms are largely closed any major air displacement is dangerous for the users inside. A bunch of years back I was working at a pharmaceutical plant doing controls. While I was in a HEPA closed filling room some dolt fired up a Freon (R12) system used to pressurize the containers without checking to see if the lines were properly capped. Those 75GPM pumps were pushing liquid Freon that initially I thought was Glycol for cooling. It took only a few seconds for the Freon to vaporize and reduce the breathable air to nil by displacement. In the few seconds it took to evaluate what's going on and get out I was quite hypoxic. My boss was extremely upset with the dolt. I spent many months after that doing lockout/tagout training and used that case as the what can happen. Halon and Freon are similar in that they are "non toxic", incombustable and generally electronics friendly in the gas form. But life is only supported by Oxygen, anything else while not toxic is not breathable without causing hypoxia. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 2 12:43:39 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:43:39 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <0IFV006LPHYWZFCG@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFV006LPHYWZFCG@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <427666CB.nail76X11IYG4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [Halon] In a closed room if enough is introduced under prssure it > will push out all air leaving an unbreathable and incombustable mix. Also a bit extreme. I've been in two complete and unwarned (the electronic pre-alarm sounding system was never activated because the contractors directly operated the release valve) halon dumps and the resulting mix was quite breathable. We did open the closed doors and air out the room (which requires a lot of effort as we're deep underneath Washington DC) of course, and the fire department came and helped in this. Others here may want to testify as to the resulting brain damage that I suffered but I generally think I'm doing just fine :-). A halon dump in a control center environment is quite impressive. Most of the celing tiles flew loose, loose papers on the console were blown everywhere, and for maybe ten seconds after the dump there was zero visibility. I'm not sure how other halon installations elsewhere work, but ours have a pre-alarm system that is supposed to warn occupants to get out for some number of seconds before the dump. There are also switches by the door (deadman style) that will let you hold off the dump. So clearly breathing the stuff isn't the healthiest idea in the world. But it's not quite as totally lethal as you and others would imply. Tim. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon May 2 12:41:12 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:41:12 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca><02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff><33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <42765F81.nail6Z211BS1U@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <05ab01c54f3e$2fad9980$0200a8c0@geoff> Yes you're right about it not absorbing oxygen , but given that it was a missile room , I think it's fair to say that they would have pumped a hell of a lot of it in as quickly as possible - and it does have toxic by-products when subjected to high temperatures. http://erd.dli.state.mt.us/safetyhealth/brochures/halon.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 6:12 PM Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > > Apparently the whole area gets flooded with halon (sp?) to quickly absorb > > any oxygen from the air, so if you hang about ...... > > "Absorb any oxygen" is a bit harsh. Halon is pretty good at stopping > things from burning but it doesn't make it impossible to breathe. It's > not the most healthy thing to breathe but in the 80's and earlier a > very common demo of halon extinguishers had the salesman in a halon filled > booth, demonstrating how all fires go out, while happily breathing the > stuff. > > Now, CO2 oxygen-displacement extinguishers, that's a different story. > > Tim. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 2 13:01:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:01:56 -0600 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <200505021637.JAA12594@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505021637.JAA12594@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42766B14.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi Jim > There are several things that can couse problems. >It might be that you are being too fast, not too slow. >Most of the newer serial chips hold a larger buffer. >Several characters may be buffered up in the chip. >You need to make sure that the character has been >sent and that you've waited for enough delay time >for your other machine to respond before sending >another character to the serial chip. You can't just >handshake on the status lines from the serial chip. >You may have to look at the time chip for timing >information. > Also, I assume you are using the system calls. If >not, you may have issues if your running under windows >or in a DOS box under windows because windows thinks >it owns the serial and will periodically steal characters >from the input. There is a way to remove a serial port >from windows but I've never tried it for this particular >problem. >Dwight > > > I just read recently that the windows drivers DON'T handle handshaking correctly. Here is a link on some old PDF's about paper tape readers/punch interfacing. Anybody want to grab them for future reference. http://www.fastec.com/technotes/ Ben alias woodelf From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 2 13:07:43 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:07:43 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <05ab01c54f3e$2fad9980$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> <02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff> <33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1> <42765F81.nail6Z211BS1U@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <05ab01c54f3e$2fad9980$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <42766C6F.nail7DJ11TUWR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Oh yeah, getting back to the "manual override" OT thread: Our halon dump system has at least three manual overrides: 1. A switch on the wall by the door to initiate a dump. (I don't know if the delay and alarms get sounded before this kind of dump or not.) 2. A momentary toggle switch on the wall to inhibit a dump. I think the idea behind it being momentary is that it's a dead-man switch - when you abandon the room the dump will go ahead without you :-). 3. One intentional non-electronic way to initiate a dump. It's this big brass handle on the valve mechanism. My cow orkers have examined this and we think that after the valve opens a little bit, the flow will blow the valve the rest of the way open. And then there's the fourth way, which is to have a contractor messing around with the electric valve solenoid and trip it when nobody expects! The plumbing is quite impressive. The halon cylinders stand about 6 feet tall by about two feet in diameter, and the pipe is like 4 inches in diameter. The computer rooms (about 60 feet by 40 feet each) have 3 cylinders, and the operating theater (about half the size of a football field) has several clusters of 6 cylinders. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 2 13:14:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 11:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <42766B14.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 May 2005, woodelf wrote: > I just read recently that the windows drivers DON'T handle handshaking > correctly. Here is a link on some old PDF's about paper tape readers/punch > interfacing. Anybody want to grab them for future reference. > http://www.fastec.com/technotes/ As a general rule I don't do anything requiring serial access to older computers on Windows 9x unless it's a native Windows32 application. Otherwise, the serial port emulation really sucks and you invariably have problems. I either work under real DOS, or I use a native app (like a version of Procomm for Win32). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 2 13:11:18 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:11:18 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 May 2005 10:17:33 EDT." <17014.13949.938773.85410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505021811.TAA18771@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Paul Koning said: > >>>>> "Geoffrey" == Geoffrey Thomas writes: > > >> No. Narrow IFs and lack of design attention due to declining > >> worthwhile content on AM (plus novelty of FM in the '60s) and > >> other factors all conspired to make it sound crappy. > >> > Geoffrey> There was a design - in the late 60's?- which used a > Geoffrey> detector which demodulted both upper and lower am sidebands > Geoffrey> and fed the result to separate speakers. Apparently the > Geoffrey> effect during night time fading was exceptional. Anybody > Geoffrey> recall anything about this - Tony ? Sorry if this is ot. > > Don't know about back then, but recently (within the past year) there > was an article about a receiver using that approach. It probably was > in the ham radio publication QEX, and I think that it was by Wes > Hayward -- or at least he was connected in some way. Most of the fading is due to phase cancellation between the two sidebands. The usual technique is to eliminate one sideband and treat the signal as a single-sideband one, using either the transmitted carrier or a locally synthesised phase-locked one. My Racal RA1792 has facilities for an independent sideband system that would allow seperate demodulation of the two sidebands, but I've not found the relevant hardware yet... To get back to computers for a while, this Racal receiver has provision for remote computer control and I'm currently investigating the SCORE (Serial Control Of Racal Equipment) protocol it uses, with a view to writing a remote control program so I can control the receiver from downstairs and stream the audio over the network. It's even more-or-less on topic - the radio dates from 1987. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 2 12:51:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:51:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Weirdity with my 8" drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 1, 5 03:15:01 pm Message-ID: > > > I've noticed something odd with my 8" disk drive. It seems to produce a > lot of errors on the last tracks on side 1 when using Anadisk. Anadisk Rmemeebr that the last tracks are physically shorter, which means the bit density is higher on them. So if there's anything marginal -- a worn head, slight misalignment, etc -- it'll show up there first. > What does "Gap in sectors" under Anadisk mean anyway? IIRC, it means it found, say, sectors 0, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. It never found a sector numbered 3. This might be right (it's perfectly possible to format a disk like that), but often it means the sector header was unreadable. One thing to check is if the total number of sectors is the same on all tracks. For most systems (that can be read by a PC controller) it will be, so if you get the 'Gap in Sectors' message and there's one fewer sector found, it's almost vertain it didn't manage to read that sector header. > > Is this just a case of disks that are just old and wearing out or > something weird with my drive? If it was mine, I'd do the full set of tests on the drive, which would mean buying an alignment disk. And 8" alignment disks seem to be particularly expensive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 2 12:55:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:55:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: <0505012344.AA27072@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at May 1, 5 11:44:32 pm Message-ID: > I have a Viewsonic PT813 21" CRT monitor, a very high-end professional model > that I was told used to cost $1800 new (1997), has both DE15 and BNC inputs > and supports both PeeCee video and sync on green. Unfortunately it is > malfunctioning - the picture is smudged to the point of being totally > unreadable. It seems like some component in its circuitry went bad - > I don't think it's the CRT - so it's probably fixable. A word of warning to anyone who gets this... I had an Apple Mac+ that had a smeared display -- shaddows to the right of objects on the screen. Now, the Mac+ video circuit is pretty simple, but none-the-less I spent quite a time going through it, unable to find the fault. The reason I couldn't find a fault in the video amplifier was that there wasn't one. It was the CRT. Low emission, I think. Most of the time, a smeared picture _is_ a fault in the video amplifier, though. But it may not be. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 2 12:58:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:58:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for../DEC questions In-Reply-To: <20050502013709.34996.qmail@web53308.mail.yahoo.com> from "Brian Roth" at May 1, 5 06:37:08 pm Message-ID: > Haven't tested the RA80 that came with it but the RA60 > sounds like it needs bearings BAD. Any suggestions on > restoring this RA60 would be appreciated. I've got an RA60 that I really must get round to playing with... IIRC the printset is on bitsavers... As for the bad bearings, if it's the spindle itself, you've got problems. There's no way you're going to take one apart and replace the bearings. IIRC it's all pressed together (and sufficiently tight that no normal gear puller will shift things), you may well find a ferrofluid seal in there, etc. If it's the spindle motor, you can almost certainly do something. The motor will come apart, the bearings are most likely standard. Of course if you're very lucky, it's just the fan ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 2 13:06:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 19:06:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: this is a crime - help ban vaxbars! In-Reply-To: <4276620E.nail72S1A9COA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at May 2, 5 01:23:26 pm Message-ID: > You can rail about preservation all you want, but 11/780's were cranked > out by the hundreds of thousands and they are not the easiest system > to keep operational (as compared to a similarly-powerful desktop Microvax). Err, I'd much rather have to keep an 11/780 running (from what I rmemmber it's mostly TTL in there) than a microVAX (which has a number of undocumented custom devices in it). -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 14:53:37 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 20:53:37 +0100 Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) In-Reply-To: <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a701c54f50$a3052ad0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jay West wrote: > Anyways... I could be wrong about the TZ07 designation, but I > was pretty sure I remembered it right. Can anyone tell me if a > TZ07 is in fact a 1/2 front loading mag tape drive, and was it > typically a given set of densities or was it frequently only > one or two densities? As others have said, you probably saw a TSZ07. This is a 1/2" magtape with SCSI interface. It can do up to 6250bpi (the TSZ05 does 1600bpi IIRC). It is one of those front-loading drives that likes to remove the tape container itself (again, IIRC - the manuals are on Manx). The TLZ04 would be a DAT drive (the first generation DEC did). 60m tapes only - 90m and geater will wear the heads excessively. Easy to distinguish from a TSZ07 as your back is unlikely to hurt if you try a "clean and jerk" style lift :-) There are more advanced drives in the series (TLZ06, TLZ07 etc.). They all provide higher denisties (to be expected) and like to feed on tapes (ditto in my experience :-) [1]) Just for completeness, the TZ85/TZ86/TZ87/TZ88 drives are all DLTs with SCSI interface. I lost track of the native capacities over the years! I was given my TZ87 because it was "broken" - just needed the leader slipped back where it belonged! Antonio [1] Both my 8mm camcorders have done this too. Is it just me ... my TK50s and RD53/54s never gave me any problems when they were in daily use!! -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 2 14:59:55 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: References: <0505012344.AA27072@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at May 1, 5 11:44:32 pm Message-ID: <49813.207.145.53.202.1115063995.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > Most of the time, a smeared picture _is_ a fault in the video amplifier, > though. But it may not be. It can also be caused by use of a cheap video cable or a cheap KVM switch. (Note that I deliberately used the word "cheap" rather than "inexpensive". I've seen expensive video cables and KVMs that were "cheap", and inexpensive ones that were not "cheap".) From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 15:06:37 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for../DEC questions In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502200637.4326.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> Whew... I just spun it up and its definitely not the fan. I am going to pull it apart this weekend and see what I can find. I do have access to a press if the bearing can be pressed off. I did grab the drawings, thanks. Brian. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Haven't tested the RA80 that came with it but the > RA60 > > sounds like it needs bearings BAD. Any suggestions > on > > restoring this RA60 would be appreciated. > > I've got an RA60 that I really must get round to > playing with... IIRC the > printset is on bitsavers... > > As for the bad bearings, if it's the spindle itself, > you've got problems. > There's no way you're going to take one apart and > replace the bearings. > IIRC it's all pressed together (and sufficiently > tight that no normal > gear puller will shift things), you may well find a > ferrofluid seal in > there, etc. > > If it's the spindle motor, you can almost certainly > do something. The > motor will come apart, the bearings are most likely > standard. > > Of course if you're very lucky, it's just the fan > ;-) > > -tony > > From allain at panix.com Mon May 2 15:10:35 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 16:10:35 -0400 Subject: NPR : "Marketplace" on Human Computers today References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca><02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff><33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1><42765F81.nail6Z211BS1U@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><05ab01c54f3e$2fad9980$0200a8c0@geoff> <42766C6F.nail7DJ11TUWR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <06fc01c54f53$01a38260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> A Radio Commercial just reported to me and me to you, that today on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program they will discuss one of the stranger obsoleted jobskiills: "The Human Computer" We've talked about it here, it'll be interesting to see how they do... John A. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 2 15:25:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:25:48 -0500 Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42768CCC.9070902@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > A word of warning to anyone who gets this... I had an Apple Mac+ that had > a smeared display -- shaddows to the right of objects on the screen. Now, > the Mac+ video circuit is pretty simple, but none-the-less I spent quite > a time going through it, unable to find the fault. > > The reason I couldn't find a fault in the video amplifier was that there > wasn't one. It was the CRT. Low emission, I think. > > Most of the time, a smeared picture _is_ a fault in the video amplifier, > though. But it may not be. I had a trintron tube connected to the same computer for 8 years slowly go "smeary" on me and I never found out why (monitor was on for only 3-4 hours each day, not 24/7). The "smears" were always after a high-to-low or low-to-high contrast (ie biggest voltage change) on the screen and were always in the direction of the scan (ie left to right, eventually fading out at the far right). Video card never failed once, and produced a perfect picture on a new monitor. So what caused that? What went "bad" over time to cause such a thing, and is it fixable? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 2 15:33:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:33:47 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42768EAB.5030806@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>I don't have that either, but I've disassembled my own BIOS and found that it >>is nearly useless to me -- for example, there are instructions that take longer >>to execute out of RAM (4 cycles per byte opcode) than ROM (2 cycles) -- so it's > > Rememebr the true-blue IBMs didn't shaddow the ROM. The BIOS ran from ROM > all the time. Yes, but not sure what point you're making. Memory accesses to ROM were faster than RAM, so the ROM could get away with this code to put a character+attribute onscreen without "snow" during horizontal retrace: MOV AX,BX STOSW ...but doing so from RAM wouldn't work because the MOV AX,BX is a 2-byte opcode that took 8 cycles to fetch, so it wouldn't be fast enough and you'd see snow. This drove me quite insane until I figured it out; I modified my own code to use a 1-byte opcode: XCHG AX,BX STOSW ...since I didn't need to preserve either AX or BX after the STOSW. This did the trick. > When I got > my TechRefs, I went through all the schematics, and exclaimed at > approximately 2 minute intervals 'They did WAHT???' I can just imagine you doing this, LOL :-) The BIOS CGA code for putting a pixel element on the screen is particularly inefficient, for example, which is why it is so damn slow. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 16:04:34 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:04:34 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <427666CB.nail76X11IYG4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c54f5a$8bf16070$5b01a8c0@flexpc> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > Also a bit extreme. I've been in two complete and unwarned > (the electronic pre-alarm sounding system was never activated > because the contractors directly operated the release valve) > halon dumps and > the resulting mix was quite breathable. Indeed. That was a "selling point". Unlike the earlier "oxygen displacement" systems (like CO2) which work by pumping in enough stuff to dilute the oxygen to a level below that at which it will sustain a fire (and life ...), halon works by interfering only with the actual combustion process. So it only needs a 4% or 5% (or thereabouts) concentration. The idea was to set the system up so that it would very rapidly dump enough halon in the room to ensure that the 4% conc. was reached rapidly, at which point flames would (supposedly) be snuffed out. You were supposed to be able to breathe this level of halon without being affected and the oxygen around you would still be there (unless you were burning, I guess :-)). Of course, rapid decompression of enough halon to cope with even a smallish room is obviously going to result in a rapid inrush of gas and a very rapid drop in temperature. That means a bunch of stuff flying everywhere and an instant "thick fog". Still, at least you'll probably be alive (albeit possibly unconcious on the floor if hit by something) when someone decides to wander in and rescue you. With a CO2 dump you'd be dead in the minute or two that it would take or someone outside to go through the "oops, what was that? Was anyone in there. I can't see a thing. Ooh what's Bill doing lying down in that mist" routine! I do remember the demo of the guy in a transparent, large diameter pipe smoking a cigarette as the halon (a slowly increasing concentration) was turned on. At about 5% the cigarette, went out - the man continued to breathe without difficulty. At some point (film or installation technician - I forget) there was a warning that prolonged exposure to halon at certain levels (about 8%+ sticks in my mind) was considered to be a health risk. So hanging around after a halon dump was very much _not_ recommended. I wonder what people use in computer rooms for fire extinguishing these days. (That is, those people who don't still have stocks of pre-ban halon ... which is now presumably worth much more than its weight in gold)? I'd just like to know for future planning purposes :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon May 2 16:26:06 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:26:06 -0400 Subject: got a TTL computer ---- interface technology RS-432 Message-ID: It is a signal generator with a small TTL computer built in. The front panel is like that of an old PDP-11, with switches and LEDs to input programs. Does anybody have the manual/spec of this TTL computer? it has several memory boards with 93L420(256bitx1) or 93L425(1kx1) chips. From dundas at caltech.edu Mon May 2 16:29:22 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 14:29:22 -0700 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <00ac01c54f5a$8bf16070$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <00ac01c54f5a$8bf16070$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: At 10:04 PM +0100 5/2/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: >I wonder what people use in computer rooms for fire >extinguishing these days. I'm experimenting with a product called Inergen. Similar idea to others in the past: reduce the oxygen concentration to a level where fire cannot be sustained yet people can still function. The Inergen formulation is some combination of nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide. Big sales point is no CFCs or ozone depletion (the reason Halon was discontinued in the US). We've installed the system for our main data center. Have not had the mandatory dump for the fire department yet. Will soon. John From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon May 2 16:58:50 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:58:50 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <00ac01c54f5a$8bf16070$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <05c901c54f62$2b68b980$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" > Still, at least you'll probably be alive (albeit possibly > unconcious on the floor if hit by something) except halon is heavier than air and will tend to gather on the floor...... :>( From andyda at earthlink.net Sun May 1 12:15:59 2005 From: andyda at earthlink.net (Andy Dannelley) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:15:59 -0700 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: Just a note of thanks for help and encouragement. I finally got my AIM back running again with the help of a local who had some test equipment. First, before getting the help I found several stuck address lines and cleared them by blowing an brushing and vacuuming. We then found that 5 out of 8 2114 RAMs were bad, and the CPU just didn't have enough oomph. After cleaning the board and replacing parts, it works like a charm. Seems weird that the CPU and RAM went bad just sitting, and the board got something stuck in the address lines just sitting in the box for 20 years, It was the original shipping box for the AIM, but I guess more crud got in the box than I realized. Lessons learned anyway. Now the first thing I need to do is to get the 20 mil current loop to RS-252 working so I can use my Mac as a terminal and program development and storage. AndyD From aek at robot.net Mon May 2 11:24:57 2005 From: aek at robot.net (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 09:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for ../DEC questions Message-ID: <20050502162457.059F721E5A3D@robot.net> Also looking for a manual, DEUNA, RL11 for it as well. -- http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184 Something that would be nice to find are docs on the 94, and engineering drawings for either the 84 or 94. They appear to be very difficult to find. From drb at msu.edu Mon May 2 17:30:10 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:30:10 -0400 Subject: Help: simulated OS/8 gen Message-ID: <200505022230.j42MUA3N009405@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Thanks to several folks who offered suggestions and/or were willing to try to duplicate my setup to see if they could find a solution. I did manage to get this to work. I used the RK8ESY driver. This is the configuration I ended up with: .R BUILD $PRINT RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1 RKA2 RKB2 RKA3 RKB3 RX01: *RXA0 *RXA1 KL8E: *TTY LPSV: *LPT TC : *DTA0 *DTA1 DTA2 DTA3 DTA4 DTA5 DTA6 DTA7 RK8E: *SYS RKA0 RKB0 which means I had to delete the TC08 driver. I tripped a bit over zeroing the device, but finally got that right. Also, I can't find anything in the manual about how files are supposed to get from the distribution media to the system disk, so I just used COPY and hoped it would work. (So far so good.) Obviously my notes weren't good enough. Shoot me now. My next problem is that FORTRAN IV programs hang when executed. De From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 2 17:35:11 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:35:11 -0400 Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor Message-ID: <0IFV00265W2JK8AL@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:25:48 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Tony Duell wrote: >> A word of warning to anyone who gets this... I had an Apple Mac+ that had >> a smeared display -- shaddows to the right of objects on the screen. Now, >> the Mac+ video circuit is pretty simple, but none-the-less I spent quite >> a time going through it, unable to find the fault. >> >> The reason I couldn't find a fault in the video amplifier was that there >> wasn't one. It was the CRT. Low emission, I think. >> >> Most of the time, a smeared picture _is_ a fault in the video amplifier, >> though. But it may not be. > >I had a trintron tube connected to the same computer for 8 years slowly go >"smeary" on me and I never found out why (monitor was on for only 3-4 hours >each day, not 24/7). The "smears" were always after a high-to-low or >low-to-high contrast (ie biggest voltage change) on the screen and were always >in the direction of the scan (ie left to right, eventually fading out at the >far right). Video card never failed once, and produced a perfect picture on a >new monitor. > >So what caused that? What went "bad" over time to cause such a thing, and is >it fixable? Actually the most common thing I've seen short of a complete horizonal output failure is the CRT focus pot and associated resistor string fails. It's a gradual failure and for most color monitors that's part of the HV transformer assembly. A few I'e stretched the life by adjusting the focus but sooner or later it fails and the images are just plain fuzzy. I think currently I have 4 in the garage that have either focus or horizonal output problems. Anyone wants to pick them up and a few working tubes give me a email. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 2 17:44:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:44:03 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: <0IFV008GRWHBV1W9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: AIM 65 lives > From: Andy Dannelley > Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:15:59 -0700 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Just a note of thanks for help and encouragement. I finally got my AIM >back running again with the help of a local who had some test >equipment. > >First, before getting the help I found several stuck address lines and >cleared them by blowing an brushing and vacuuming. > >We then found that 5 out of 8 2114 RAMs were bad, and the CPU just >didn't have enough oomph. > >After cleaning the board and replacing parts, it works like a charm. >Seems weird that the CPU and RAM went bad just sitting, and the board >got something stuck in the address lines just sitting in the box for 20 >years, It was the original shipping box for the AIM, but I guess more >crud got in the box than I realized. People forget that plastic cased parts are not hermetic and therefore subject to internal corrosion and failure. The other is even assembled boards are susceptable to ESD damage. The last is I have brough many boards with odd problem back to life by running them through the dishwasher. I've seen odd failures due to conductive grunge on the board that could not bee seen with the naked eye. Last some brands and styles of scokets really didn't stand the test of time. I have a few NS* boards I've desocketed and soldered the chips directly in becuase of that. Allison From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 18:11:14 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 00:11:14 +0100 Subject: Anyone near Glasgow In-Reply-To: <000b01c54e9d$80841920$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <00bb01c54f6c$3ec0c450$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Heinz Wolter wrote: > that scsi card alone is worth 100-150# ;) but not the 300lbs > to North America.. I was wondering about the SCSI card. Might be worth checking whether it is a Qbus SCSI card or something else. Looks like two nice clean units. I wonder what the "featuring twin Q-Bus" bit means? Might be worth the ?50 just for the TK50s alone! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 2 18:35:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:35:43 -0500 Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: References: <0505012344.AA27072@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050502183543.52c639ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 2 May 2005 18:55:08 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I have a Viewsonic PT813 21" CRT monitor, a very high-end > > professional model that I was told used to cost $1800 new (1997), > > has both DE15 and BNC inputs and supports both PeeCee video and sync > > on green. Unfortunately it is malfunctioning - the picture is > > smudged to the point of being totally unreadable. It seems like > > some component in its circuitry went bad - I don't think it's the > > CRT - so it's probably fixable. > > A word of warning to anyone who gets this... I had an Apple Mac+ that > had a smeared display -- shaddows to the right of objects on the > screen. Now, the Mac+ video circuit is pretty simple, but > none-the-less I spent quite a time going through it, unable to find > the fault. > > The reason I couldn't find a fault in the video amplifier was that > there wasn't one. It was the CRT. Low emission, I think. > The CRT on a Mac Plus is probably one of the easiest video tubes to replace. It's nice and small, and it's not many screws to get a Plus apart enough to swap it. I'm not sure that (used) replacement CRTs are as plentiful as they were five years ago when I replaced one, though. There used to be Apple-oriented 'scrap' shops where you could get a pulled tube for ten dollars. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 19:34:51 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 17:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for ../DEC questions In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050503003452.96065.qmail@web53310.mail.yahoo.com> Got it...thanks. I had a line on a 11/94. The guy works at a wind tunnel in a defense plant and they had oodles of DEC stuff. I know he has the engineering drawings for it. All he wanted was beer and pizza of all things. I haven't had good luck getting back in touch with him but if (when) I do, I'll get the drawings out to you for bitsavers. Thanks, Brian. --- Al Kossow wrote: > > Also looking for a > manual, DEUNA, RL11 for it as well. > > -- > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184 > > Something that would be nice to find are docs on the > 94, and engineering > drawings for either the 84 or 94. They appear to be > very difficult to find. > From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 2 20:34:21 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:34:21 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? Message-ID: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys (well OK - Tony mostly :-), Started looking at the Compupro 8086 S-100 system this evening. As usual during initial power tests - pulled all cards, and began to power-up through variac and series light bulb - Bulb glows brightly as power comes up, suggesting system is drawing far more power than it should, and chassis voltages (+8, +16, -16) fail to come up hardly at all. After investigating, I discovered that there is a large capacitor attached to a separate winding off the transformer. This is a oval metal can capaciter (looks like a cylinder, except that end- on view would be oval). It reads: 4 MF 660 AC 60 HZ RONKEN P81A23405H01 Protected 900 AFC NO PCB'S CONTAINS FLAMMABLE FLUID 2483 Disconnecting this capacitor "cures" the excess current draw and the chassis voltages come up fine (still running through variac at reduced AC voltage with series light bulb as I expect this cap is part of a "line voltage regulator". The transformer is labled "C.V." (Constant Voltage?) I am reluctant to conduct a "full power" test as the light bulb glows and full intensity if I bring the Variac up to 120v with the cap connected - ie: the system is appearing as a very low impedance load - when it should be drawing virtually nothing. Ohm-meter tests of the CAP show that it is NOT shorted, and is functioning as a capacitor (brief current flow when leads reversed). It looks to me as if this Cap is acting as a low impedance load at 60hz and effectively "shorting" the winding that it is connected to, which causes the transformer to draw excessive power. Can anyone explain to me what is going on, and why the unloaded power supply is drawing so much on it's input? A brief tutorial on how this type of supply is supposed to work would be very helpful... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 2 20:37:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 18:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software company for sale on eBay Message-ID: Nothing special, but interesting/amusing (somewhat): 20 YEAR OLD INCORPORATED COMPUTER SOFTWARE COMPANY http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46685&item=7511521877&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW It's in Santa Barbara, California. Perhaps Marvin knows who this is? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Mon May 2 20:59:01 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:59:01 -0400 Subject: NPR : "Marketplace" on Human Computers today References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca><02a001c54f1a$c3042560$0200a8c0@geoff><33462.127.0.0.1.1115042897.squirrel@127.0.0.1><42765F81.nail6Z211BS1U@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><05ab01c54f3e$2fad9980$0200a8c0@geoff><42766C6F.nail7DJ11TUWR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <06fc01c54f53$01a38260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <006501c54f83$adbd46a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> FWIW, The Radio story was the five-minute introduction to the book "When Computers Were Human" by David Alan Grier. The author tracked down survivors stories from math workers before 1945. Sounds like he found out a lot about how people lived their careers before the Univac, etc took over. A book to check out at the store. John A. No affiliation with anybody mentioned, NPR, etc. re: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691091579 or Amazon.com, or "In Living Color", From cctalk at randy482.com Mon May 2 21:04:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 21:04:41 -0500 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? References: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <000e01c54f84$7b93fa60$2592d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 8:34 PM > Hi Guys (well OK - Tony mostly :-), > > Started looking at the Compupro 8086 S-100 system this evening. > As usual during initial power tests - pulled all cards, and began > to power-up through variac and series light bulb - Bulb glows > brightly as power comes up, suggesting system is drawing far more > power than it should, and chassis voltages (+8, +16, -16) fail to > come up hardly at all. > > After investigating, I discovered that there is a large capacitor > attached to a separate winding off the transformer. This is a > oval metal can capaciter (looks like a cylinder, except that end- > on view would be oval). It reads: > > 4 MF 660 AC 60 HZ > RONKEN P81A23405H01 > Protected 900 AFC > NO PCB'S CONTAINS > FLAMMABLE FLUID > 2483 > > Disconnecting this capacitor "cures" the excess current draw and > the chassis voltages come up fine (still running through variac at > reduced AC voltage with series light bulb as I expect this cap is > part of a "line voltage regulator". > > The transformer is labled "C.V." (Constant Voltage?) > > I am reluctant to conduct a "full power" test as the light bulb > glows and full intensity if I bring the Variac up to 120v with > the cap connected - ie: the system is appearing as a very low > impedance load - when it should be drawing virtually nothing. > > Ohm-meter tests of the CAP show that it is NOT shorted, and is > functioning as a capacitor (brief current flow when leads reversed). > It looks to me as if this Cap is acting as a low impedance load > at 60hz and effectively "shorting" the winding that it is connected > to, which causes the transformer to draw excessive power. > > Can anyone explain to me what is going on, and why the unloaded > power supply is drawing so much on it's input? A brief tutorial > on how this type of supply is supposed to work would be very > helpful... > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html My favorite chassis, it is a constant-voltage you need to keep the capacitor connected. CVT's are found on two S100 manufacturers - first TEI and later CompuPro. On systems like Cromemco's the power-supply runs high and the more cards you add (more load) the closer to 8v you get on the 8v line (starting at up to 11v), with CVT power-supplies it should stay near 8v independent of load. Do check that the other capacitors (filter) are not shorted. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 2 21:22:02 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? In-Reply-To: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200505030235.WAA22518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > As usual during initial power tests - pulled all cards, and began to > power-up through variac and series light bulb - Bulb glows brightly > as power comes up, suggesting system is drawing far more power than > it should, [...] > Can anyone explain to me what is going on, and why the unloaded power > supply is drawing so much on it's input? One possibility comes to mind immediately. Current flowing != power being drawn. A serial resistance will show you, approximately, current drawn. But if the load is heavily reactive, as may well be the case here, it's entirely possible for the current drawn to be all out of proportion to the power consumed. An ideal capacitor or inductor, for example, presents a purely reactive load and consumes no power even though it draws current. (Of course, real capacitors and inductors are not ideal; put a poorly chosen capacitor or inductor across mains voltage and you will get a rather forceful, and quite likely dangerous, lesson in how far from ideal they can be.) Mind you, that's not necessarily to say that that's what's going on in your case. Just a possibility. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 2 22:22:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 23:22:01 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? Message-ID: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:34:21 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Disconnecting this capacitor "cures" the excess current draw and >the chassis voltages come up fine (still running through variac at >reduced AC voltage with series light bulb as I expect this cap is >part of a "line voltage regulator". > >The transformer is labled "C.V." (Constant Voltage?) The cap needs to be there. An unloaded CVT runs hot and draws more current due to the highly reactive load. A side effect of storing power in a resonant circuit (floating coil and cap). As the transformer is loaded the current remains the same but more stored energy is transfered to the active load. I have a Compupro Chassis, TEI and even a spare supply of that style. I also have 120V/120V CVT for systems that do not have one internally. They tend to run warm under normal cases. It should with a modest load (auto headlamps are handy for this) behave and also not blow primary side fuse(s). By current switchmode tech they are scary but represent old magamp thinking and are reliable devices. Allison From news at computercollector.com Mon May 2 22:45:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:45:35 -0400 Subject: Report on VCF Europa 6.0 Message-ID: <200505030345.j433j4Wl079158@dewey.classiccmp.org> By Christine Finn: http://news.computercollector.com (click the link under the "About us" heading) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon May 2 22:54:02 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:54:02 -0400 Subject: Software company for sale on eBay References: Message-ID: <01ec01c54f93$be876be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> it says "Mission Software" in the listing ;) someone asked the question. From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > 20 YEAR OLD INCORPORATED COMPUTER SOFTWARE COMPANY > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46685&item=7511521877&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > It's in Santa Barbara, California. Perhaps Marvin knows who this is? From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue May 3 00:17:18 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 3 May 05 05:17:18 GMT Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor Message-ID: <0505030517.AA28794@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Eric Smith wrote: > It can also be caused by use of a cheap video cable or a cheap KVM switch. Not the case here - genuine DEC video cable and no KVM switches. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue May 3 01:08:33 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 3 May 05 06:08:33 GMT Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? MS From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 3 02:00:12 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 03:00:12 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: <01C54F8C.8F1A2C00@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> -------------Original message: From: Andy Dannelley Subject: AIM 65 lives >Just a note of thanks for help and encouragement. I finally got my AIM >back running again with the help of a local who had some test >equipment. Congratulations! Sounds like ya had fun. >Now the first thing I need to do is to get the 20 mil current loop to >RS-252 working so I can use my Mac as a terminal and program >development and storage. Depending on your Mac's input sensitivity, it may work as is. The AIM serial input (J1-Y) is RS-232 compatible (R24 should be 3K3; older versions were only 1K). The output (J1-U) is of course TTL level which is often adequate; if not and you've got +/- 12V available, an optoisolator does the trick, otherwise a Maxim MAX233 is a convenient single-chip solution. I'll send you the relevant app note off-list. mike From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 3 02:08:50 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 00:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> > So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? There's a big difference between "directly harmful to humans" and "damages the ozone layer". Though the scientific evidence for the latter is sketchy at best. Is it really banned? I though it was still in use. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue May 3 03:03:52 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:03:52 +0100 Subject: AIM 65 lives In-Reply-To: <01C54F8C.8F1A2C00@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> References: <01C54F8C.8F1A2C00@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: In message <01C54F8C.8F1A2C00 at H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> M H Stein wrote: > I'll send you the relevant app note off-list. Have you got any other AIM-65 or 6502 appnotes lying around anywhere? I've been trying to track down some of the old Rockwell ANs (IIRC one covered CRT controllers, another one covered DMA) but haven't had much luck. Datasheets are easy to find, but ANs seem to be the equivalent of gold dust :-/ Thanks, -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... SSC : Spare any Small Change? From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue May 3 03:28:59 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:28:59 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> Message-ID: <001901c54fc0$ab087320$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 8:08 AM Subject: RE: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > > So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? > > There's a big difference between "directly harmful to humans" and > "damages the ozone layer". > There is more than one "halon" with differing proportions of carbon ,chlorine , fluorine , bromine and iodine. Perhaps they're not totally banned but being phased out. Certainly considered to be harmful to the ozone layer. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue May 3 05:14:14 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:14:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: tube question Message-ID: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Hi all, Does anyone know what the commercial/civilian equivalent of the JAN CG504A tube is? Thanks, Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue May 3 05:21:38 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:21:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: tube question In-Reply-To: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <24021.62.177.191.201.1115115698.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Oeps, typo! Should be JAN CG-502A. > Hi all, > > Does anyone know what the commercial/civilian equivalent of the > JAN CG504A tube is? > > Thanks, > > Ed From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue May 3 05:49:28 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 06:49:28 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? Message-ID: <20050503104927.MJXI16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>Disconnecting this capacitor "cures" the excess current draw and >>the chassis voltages come up fine (still running through variac at >>reduced AC voltage with series light bulb as I expect this cap is >>part of a "line voltage regulator". >> >>The transformer is labled "C.V." (Constant Voltage?) > >The cap needs to be there. An unloaded CVT runs hot and draws >more current due to the highly reactive load. A side effect >of storing power in a resonant circuit (floating coil and cap). >As the transformer is loaded the current remains the same but >more stored energy is transfered to the active load. I have >a Compupro Chassis, TEI and even a spare supply of that style. >I also have 120V/120V CVT for systems that do not have one >internally. They tend to run warm under normal cases. It >should with a modest load (auto headlamps are handy for this) >behave and also not blow primary side fuse(s). > >By current switchmode tech they are scary but represent old >magamp thinking and are reliable devices. Thanks - yes, I figured the cap needs to be there, but removing it during low power tests identified it as the cause of the high current draw - I guess I was not clear on this as several people have emailed me to warn me not to run it without the cap. But I think you have provided the information I needed - normally I bring up a chassis with no load, initially at very low line voltage to allow the big electrolitic filter capacitors to take it easy as they reform.... But I've not encountered a resonant transformer design before - if I understand you correctly, not having any load at all is putting the transformer/cap into a state where it is drawing excessive power - I will try supplying a load. Do I need to load all of the windings, or will drawing from just the 8V supply be adaquate (I would expect the latter). Thanks, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 3 06:15:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 07:15:30 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? Message-ID: <0IFW00MAZV9JW9B0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? > From: Dave Dunfield > Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 06:49:28 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >But I think you have provided the information I needed - normally >I bring up a chassis with no load, initially at very low line voltage >to allow the big electrolitic filter capacitors to take it easy as >they reform.... But I've not encountered a resonant transformer >design before - if I understand you correctly, not having any load >at all is putting the transformer/cap into a state where it is drawing >excessive power - I will try supplying a load. Do I need to load all >of the windings, or will drawing from just the 8V supply be adaquate >(I would expect the latter). > >Thanks, >Dave >-- Load the 5V one at least 10%. In actuality it makes little difference if one or all of the winding are loaded as it's the load applied to the core that counts. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 3 06:19:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:19:57 +0000 Subject: Obituary - Andrew St Johnston Message-ID: <1115119197.2393.16.camel@weka.localdomain> One of the UK pioneers - obituary as reported in The Times yesterday: Andrew St Johnston, computer pioneer, was born on August 28, 1922. He died on April 3 2005, aged 82. Andrew St Johnston was one of Britain's computer pioneers. He led the team which developed Elliott Brothers' 400 series computer, a machine which introduced many features now taken for granted, such as modular architectures and removable magnetic storage. Andrew St Johnston took a degree in electrical engineering at the City and Guilds College in London, then part of Imperial College. After graduating in 1943 he joined the Navy and served as a radar officer, rising to the rank of lieutenant-commander. In 1949 he joined Elliott Brothers. A long-established British company which had diversified from scientific instruments into control systems, it was unusual among the early computer companies in that it made its own machines, instead of developing models of computers produced in universities. The 401, for which St Johnston was project leader, was run for the first time in public at the Physical Society on April 22, 1953. At the time Elliott computers were more popular than the early IBM models. St Johnston then worked on the more advanced, transistor-based, 803. His first marriage was dissolved and in 1958 he married Aldrina (Dina) Vaughan, a programmer at Elliott's who had worked on the Cambridge EDSAC. In 1959 she set up Vaughan Programming Services - it was Britain's first software house, offering programs and support for other companies' computers. St Johnston joined Vaughan in 1966 when it had established a reputation in control systems, warehouse automation and information display; it provided passenger information services for airports and railways. In 1996 it was sold to Harmon, a US company in the same field. St Johnston and Dina retired in 1999, after three years' running the renamed Vaughan-Harmon Systems on behalf of its new owner. In 1994 he and Dina donated an Elliott 803 to the Computer Museum at Bletchley Park. Having spent ten years in a barn, it was restored to working condition and remains on display. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 3 08:24:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:24:06 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? References: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <200505030235.WAA22518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17015.31606.696623.299780@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> As usual during initial power tests - pulled all cards, and began >> to power-up through variac and series light bulb - Bulb glows >> brightly as power comes up, suggesting system is drawing far more >> power than it should, [...] >> Can anyone explain to me what is going on, and why the unloaded >> power supply is drawing so much on it's input? der> One possibility comes to mind immediately. der> Current flowing != power being drawn. A serial resistance will der> show you, approximately, current drawn. But if the load is der> heavily reactive, as may well be the case here, it's entirely der> possible for the current drawn to be all out of proportion to der> the power consumed. der> An ideal capacitor or inductor, for example, presents a purely der> reactive load and consumes no power even though it draws der> current. That's what I figure, too. With a dual trace scope, or an X/Y scope, you can test this easily -- set one channel to measure the current (voltage across a *small* series resistor) and the other voltage. Trigger on one, and observe the two traces. Or feed them to X and Y and see how close the Lissajous figure is to a circle. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 3 08:42:39 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 08:42:39 -0500 Subject: Software company for sale on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050503084208.04f690e0@mail> At 08:37 PM 5/2/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Nothing special, but interesting/amusing (somewhat): >20 YEAR OLD INCORPORATED COMPUTER SOFTWARE COMPANY Amusing because he's so high? - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 3 08:36:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:36:22 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? Enviroscares. I'm puzzled by some of the earlier discussion. In particular, the "displace all air" stuff sounds bogus. I remember the Halon setup in our lab at DEC; I don't think those tanks were anywhere near big enough to displace a substantial fraction of the oxygen from the room. Note that the body works perfectly well with substantially less air than you get at sea level -- that's how you function in an airplane. >From what I remember, the concentration of Halon in the air for fire suppression is only a few percent. The real puzzle is how that can be -- there's lots of oxygen left, yet the fire goes out. I don't remember the mechanism. But the key point is that, as far as I have heard, Halon does NOT function by "displacing all oxygen from the room". paul From news at computercollector.com Tue May 3 08:57:00 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:57:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Good ham column in today's Merc News Message-ID: <200505031356.j43DuNsq083420@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/11551968.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From ml at hejoe.de Tue May 3 02:29:34 2005 From: ml at hejoe.de (Michael Loeblich) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:29:34 +0200 Subject: RA7x OCP pinout In-Reply-To: <009d01c54f32$5bdfcd40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <009d01c54f32$5bdfcd40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1115105374.21962.11.camel@mldek.lan> Thank you, Antonio. What I want was the RA7x OCP pinout. None of the mentioned documents gave that information. I think what I need is something like: MP-01428, MP-01429, MP-01434, MP-01435 or MP-01439 This are Field Maintenance Print Sets for RA70, BA27, RA71/72, SA7x or RA73 respectively. If not scanned (what I assume) can please somebody of the manual owner have a look for the OCP pinout? Michael On Mon, 2005-05-02 at 17:16 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Michael Loeblich wrote: > > The are 20 pins at the RA7x OCP interface. I found RA81 OCP > > pins, but this is different. Can anybody help with a pinout or > > link? > > Michael > > If you want RA81 details, I assume one of these manuals > at least can help: > > http://vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra81 > > I'm reasonably sure that I have at least one > RA7x manual scanned somewhere but it does not > appear on Manx: > http://vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=ra7 > > I'll see if I can dig it out and let you know. > Remind me in a few days when I've forgotten :-) > > Antonio From bv at norbionics.com Tue May 3 04:23:13 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:23:13 +0200 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 03 May 2005 09:08:50 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: >> So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? > > There's a big difference between "directly harmful to humans" and > "damages the ozone layer". > > Though the scientific evidence for the latter is sketchy at best. > > Is it really banned? I though it was still in use. > It was banned by international treaty many years ago, although some countries were dragging their feet about implementing it. There was a heated discussion about how a theoretical environmental problem (after all, the Halon was not supposed to be released unless there was a real fire) overruled a real danger to human life (replacing Halon with CO2 poses a great risk to anybody who does not get out before it is released). -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Tue May 3 04:23:13 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 11:23:13 +0200 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <50345.63.199.31.130.1115104130.squirrel@63.199.31.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 03 May 2005 09:08:50 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: >> So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? > > There's a big difference between "directly harmful to humans" and > "damages the ozone layer". > > Though the scientific evidence for the latter is sketchy at best. > > Is it really banned? I though it was still in use. > It was banned by international treaty many years ago, although some countries were dragging their feet about implementing it. There was a heated discussion about how a theoretical environmental problem (after all, the Halon was not supposed to be released unless there was a real fire) overruled a real danger to human life (replacing Halon with CO2 poses a great risk to anybody who does not get out before it is released). -- Bj?rn From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 3 09:40:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 07:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software company for sale on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050503084208.04f690e0@mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 08:37 PM 5/2/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Nothing special, but interesting/amusing (somewhat): > >20 YEAR OLD INCORPORATED COMPUTER SOFTWARE COMPANY > > Amusing because he's so high? Actually, at $128,000, and assuming the revenue figure is accurate, it's priced about right. As long as one can maintain the contracts (i.e. keep existing customers) and the contracts aren't based on some legacy technology that's being quickly phased out of the marketplace, it wouldn't be a bad investment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 3 10:15:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:15:27 +0000 Subject: Hollerith D11 wanted for hire (UK) Message-ID: <1115133327.2411.71.camel@weka.localdomain> We've just been contacted by a film company who are interested in hiring a Hollerith D11 - anyone in the UK happen to have one or know where there is one? We (as in the computer museum side of things) don't have one, and I gather that the Park Trust don't think that they own one either. Anyone have one in private hands or knows of a museum that owns one? cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 3 10:53:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bounty ($$$) Looking for Desktop Express for Macintosh Message-ID: I've got a new bounty out. I'm looking for Desktop Express for the Macintosh circa late 1980s. This was a package put out by Dow Jones to enable you to retrieve stock quotes and graph trends on the display. If you have a copy of this, it's worth some bucks to me. E-mail me privately, please. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 3 11:02:53 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 09:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <200505031602.JAA13195@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov at ivan.harhan.org > >So if halon is really so benign, why did they ban it? > >MS > Hi Like many things that were produced that were too stable, it doesn't break down until it gets someplace that it can cause problems. In its case, it would cause problems of ozone lay decay. For the purposes of putting out fires it worked well. It does produce some nasty hydrofluoric acid when heated enough. Early on, they tended to think that it was good to make things that didn't break down easily. Things like DDT and fluorocarbons were considered as the greatest thing. Now days, people talk about recycling and degradable. Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue May 3 11:30:36 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 17:30:36 +0100 Subject: OT: tube question References: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <24021.62.177.191.201.1115115698.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <003301c54ffd$75467880$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Ed, are you sure it is a CG? I have a listing for a CK502AX (=CV385, DL71), but not a CG502. Alternativly, does it have a NATO stock number or a CV number? I have some cross references for CV and NATO numbers, but not JAN (we never had much American kit at work) Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: Re: OT: tube question > > Oeps, typo! Should be JAN CG-502A. > > > > Hi all, > > > > Does anyone know what the commercial/civilian equivalent of the > > JAN CG504A tube is? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ed > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue May 3 12:40:42 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:40:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: tube question In-Reply-To: <003301c54ffd$75467880$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <24021.62.177.191.201.1115115698.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <003301c54ffd$75467880$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <13591.62.177.191.201.1115142042.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Hello Jim, Yes, the marking says 'CG'. The full text on the box label says : 5960-193-5122 1 EACH-ELECTRON TUBE JAN CG 502A 47438-PP-63-B1-BB MF'D BT G.E. PKD. 1/63 The tube itself is the one with the metal housing, like the 6SK7 f.e. Regards, Ed > Ed, > > are you sure it is a CG? I have a listing for a CK502AX (=CV385, DL71), > but > not a CG502. Alternativly, does it have a NATO stock number or a CV > number? > I have some cross references for CV and NATO numbers, but not JAN (we > never > had much American kit at work) > > Jim. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: OT: tube question > > >> >> Oeps, typo! Should be JAN CG-502A. >> >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Does anyone know what the commercial/civilian equivalent of the >> > JAN CG504A tube is? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Ed >> >> > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 3 13:21:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hollerith D11 wanted for hire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1115133327.2411.71.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > We've just been contacted by a film company who are interested in hiring > a Hollerith D11 - anyone in the UK happen to have one or know where > there is one? > > We (as in the computer museum side of things) don't have one, and I > gather that the Park Trust don't think that they own one either. > > Anyone have one in private hands or knows of a museum that owns one? Jules, I do believe the Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung in Sindelfingen, Germany, has one. At least one of the curators wrote a paper several years ago that made a convincing argument that the D11 was a full blown computer. Anyway, copntact information is here: http://www.netmuseum.de/m-ausgabe.asp?strAufrufer=Liste&strId=791 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue May 3 13:36:05 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:36:05 +0100 Subject: OT: tube question References: <19949.62.177.191.201.1115115254.squirrel@62.177.191.201><24021.62.177.191.201.1115115698.squirrel@62.177.191.201><003301c54ffd$75467880$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <13591.62.177.191.201.1115142042.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <004601c5500e$f73902c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi Ed, it's not in my list - 5960 in the NATO number indicates a thermionic device, but the number is to short to fit into the UK list, ours tend to be 5960-99-037-xxxx. 5961-99-037-xxxx would indicate a semiconductor. Good luck! Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 6:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: tube question > Hello Jim, > > Yes, the marking says 'CG'. > The full text on the box label says : > > 5960-193-5122 > 1 EACH-ELECTRON TUBE > JAN CG 502A > 47438-PP-63-B1-BB > MF'D BT G.E. > PKD. 1/63 > > The tube itself is the one with the metal housing, like the 6SK7 f.e. > > Regards, > > Ed > > > Ed, > > > > are you sure it is a CG? I have a listing for a CK502AX (=CV385, DL71), > > but > > not a CG502. Alternativly, does it have a NATO stock number or a CV > > number? > > I have some cross references for CV and NATO numbers, but not JAN (we > > never > > had much American kit at work) > > > > Jim. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 11:21 AM > > Subject: Re: OT: tube question > > > > > >> > >> Oeps, typo! Should be JAN CG-502A. > >> > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > Does anyone know what the commercial/civilian equivalent of the > >> > JAN CG504A tube is? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > Ed > >> > >> > > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 3 13:39:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:39:29 -0500 Subject: Software company for sale on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050503084208.04f690e0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050503133653.05131110@mail> At 09:40 AM 5/3/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Actually, at $128,000, and assuming the revenue figure is accurate, it's >priced about right. As long as one can maintain the contracts (i.e. keep >existing customers) and the contracts aren't based on some legacy >technology that's being quickly phased out of the marketplace, it wouldn't >be a bad investment. Just to keep it vintage, I've seen a few eBay auctions of small old one-owner software companies who made interesting products Back In The Day, and they have generally highly overestimated the value of their company. If their software can only be used in California, that limits the value. If the continuity of their contracts is based on personal contacts and history, they can easily be replaced and revenues can drop to zero. But with the ultra-brief description on the auction, we're both guessing. - John From tomj at wps.com Tue May 3 14:11:05 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? In-Reply-To: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050503115710.X713@localhost> On Mon, 2 May 2005, Allison wrote: >> Disconnecting this capacitor "cures" the excess current draw and >> the chassis voltages come up fine (still running through variac at >> reduced AC voltage with series light bulb as I expect this cap is >> part of a "line voltage regulator". >> >> The transformer is labled "C.V." (Constant Voltage?) > > The cap needs to be there. An unloaded CVT runs hot and draws > more current due to the highly reactive load. A side effect > of storing power in a resonant circuit (floating coil and cap). > As the transformer is loaded the current remains the same but > more stored energy is transfered to the active load. I have > a Compupro Chassis, TEI and even a spare supply of that style. > I also have 120V/120V CVT for systems that do not have one > internally. They tend to run warm under normal cases. It > should with a modest load (auto headlamps are handy for this) > behave and also not blow primary side fuse(s). > > By current switchmode tech they are scary but represent old > magamp thinking and are reliable devices. Allison is correct; I'd like to amplify on it. CV transformer power supplies are very inefficient; they draw tons of current and make a lot of heat. A CV transformer is basically a regular transformer with changes to the core and usually an added winding that has a capacitor on it. The extra winding and cap circuit is resonant at 60 (50) Hz as Allison points out. The core has a gap that makes it intentionally magnetically inefficient; the core is magnetically saturated; when the line voltage increases, more current flows, but no more magnetic field is generated, the extra power going up in heat. This is a "saturable core" transformer. They're run saturated, with excess input current, so that when the line voltage drops, the magnetic field does NOT drop -- because input power caused saturation, magnetic field was at maximum, dropping the line voltage to 100 (from 120, US) only lowers waste heat, the magnetic field stays the same. When the input goes below some point then yes, the output voltage will start to drop. THere's lots of variations, I don't know what your power supply uses. Some put out "square" waves (clipped sines due to saturation), or regulated sine. Hard to imagine now, but this setup was once a lot cheaper than a switcher. From tomj at wps.com Tue May 3 14:13:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? In-Reply-To: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050503121131.W713@localhost> You pretty much have to put a load on the thing for it to work right. The lightbulb test is just a go/no-go check, you can't rely on it for fine interpretation, especially with non-linear devices like the ferrorresonant or saturable reactor. Stick some cards in it and measure the amount of smoke. From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 3 15:26:27 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 15:26:27 -0500 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? References: <0IFW00IFO9CJXESE@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <20050503115710.X713@localhost> Message-ID: <001901c5501e$661e2620$cf3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:11 PM > Allison is correct; I'd like to amplify on it. > > CV transformer power supplies are very inefficient; they draw tons > of current and make a lot of heat. > > A CV transformer is basically a regular transformer with changes > to the core and usually an added winding that has a capacitor on > it. The extra winding and cap circuit is resonant at 60 (50) Hz as > Allison points out. > > The core has a gap that makes it intentionally magnetically > inefficient; the core is magnetically saturated; when the line > voltage increases, more current flows, but no more magnetic field > is generated, the extra power going up in heat. This is a > "saturable core" transformer. > > They're run saturated, with excess input current, so that when the > line voltage drops, the magnetic field does NOT drop -- because > input power caused saturation, magnetic field was at maximum, > dropping the line voltage to 100 (from 120, US) only lowers waste > heat, the magnetic field stays the same. > > When the input goes below some point then yes, the output voltage > will start to drop. > > THere's lots of variations, I don't know what your power supply > uses. Some put out "square" waves (clipped sines due to > saturation), or regulated sine. > > Hard to imagine now, but this setup was once a lot cheaper than a > switcher. This system handles brown-outs, surges, huge spikes, etc. It is especially handy in industrial areas that have heavy equpment destroying line quality. These systems can create an audible hum. For any delicate equipment in industrial areas you will often find 120/120 or 240/240 ferro-resonate transformers added (especially for phone systems). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 15:47:48 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:47:48 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001201c55021$5f13e790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > I'm puzzled by some of the earlier discussion. In particular, > the "displace all air" stuff sounds bogus. I'm sure it is. Even allowing for the fact that halon 1301 (or whichever was the commonly used one) is heavier than air and will therefore sink, I don't believe that a concentration of 5% by volume (presumably calculated over the whole room's volume) is going to become much high enough to displace enough oxygen to prevent combustion. (Especially since the sudden inrush of gas plus the presumed pre-existing combustion will both have caused considerable air currents and hence mixing). > From what I remember, the concentration of Halon in the air > for fire suppression is only a few percent. The real puzzle is how > that can be -- there's lots of oxygen left, yet the fire goes > out. Halon functions by interfering with the actual combustion. In the presence of combustion (or presumably, just at elevated temperatures) the halon reacts with oxygen, so at the actual flame (and nowhere else) the oxygen is consumed and no longer available to feed the fire. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 15:59:11 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:59:11 +0100 Subject: RA7x OCP pinout In-Reply-To: <1115105374.21962.11.camel@mldek.lan> Message-ID: <001301c55022$f5f1c5a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Michael Loeblich wrote: > Thank you, Antonio. What I want was the RA7x OCP pinout. > None of the mentioned documents gave that information. I think > what I need is something like: > MP-01428, MP-01429, MP-01434, MP-01435 or MP-01439 > This are Field Maintenance Print Sets for RA70, BA27, RA71/72, > SA7x or RA73 respectively. If not scanned (what I assume) can > please somebody of the manual owner have a look for the OCP > pinout? Michael Two manuals that don't help with this specific query but are genrally useful for RA7x drives anyway are: EK-ORA7X-SM-002 RA7x Disk Drive Service Manual EK-RSA7X-PG-002 RA7x/SA7x Pocket Reference Guide About the only thing they do not list are pinouts for an OCP. So you may be reduced to waiting for someone with one to buzz it out. There are two variants of the OCP - the one used in the BA200 series chassis and the one used in the SA7x enclosure (in an array of disk drives in a rack). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue May 3 16:06:13 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 22:06:13 +0100 Subject: RA7x OCP pinout In-Reply-To: <1115105374.21962.11.camel@mldek.lan> Message-ID: <001401c55023$f1693ad0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> One other thing I've just realised is that there are at least two more manuals available that describe the SA7x enclosure: EK-OSA7X-SM. C01 SA7x Enclosure Service Manual EK-OSA7X-UG. C01 SA7x Enclosure User Guide Neither of these seem to have an answer for you (but please check for yourself, as I just skimmed them quickly), however, they do provide a bunch of useful information. In addition, there are lists of related docs at the beginning of the each of these manuals, so you will at least have an idea of what you should be looking for. I don't think that my MicroVAX 3600 has an OCP, but if it does I'll see if I can get to it and buzz it out. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 3 16:02:10 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:02:10 -0500 Subject: Picked up VGB10 manual Message-ID: <008e01c55030$06266900$39406b43@66067007> I picked a new copy of the Digital VGB10 Video Terminal Installation and Operating Information manual at the local Goodwill. It has all the pin outs and is written in several languages. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 3 17:44:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:44:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: AIM 65 lives In-Reply-To: <0IFV008GRWHBV1W9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 2, 5 06:44:03 pm Message-ID: > Last some brands and styles of scokets really didn't stand the > test of time. I have a few NS* boards I've desocketed and soldered > the chips directly in becuase of that. I normally replace such sockets with good turned-pin (I think you call them machined-pin) ones. I've yet to have had a contact failure on one of those. If the ICs are rare/likely to need to be removed in the future (EPROMS, etc) then I'd want to keep them in sockets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 3 17:41:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:41:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: <0IFV00265W2JK8AL@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 2, 5 06:35:11 pm Message-ID: > Actually the most common thing I've seen short of a complete horizonal > output failure is the CRT focus pot and associated resistor string fails. Out of focus and ;'smeared' look totally different, though. But then again the general public never were much good at describing faults :-) > It's a gradual failure and for most color monitors that's part of the > HV transformer assembly. A few I'e stretched the life by adjusting > the focus but sooner or later it fails and the images are just plain > fuzzy. It happeend to me in an Amstrad VGA monitor. I managed to get the flyback transformer, fitting it completely cured the problem (of course). Fortuantely I had the sense to do a continuity check on the flyback pins -- the first one I was supplied with was totally incorrect and would have connected the CRT heater to the 95V line..... I heard of somebody taking a hacksaw to a flyback to cut away the connections ot the focus network, sealing the cut ends with epoxy or corona dope, and hanging an external voltage divder off the 25kV anode output. I've not been that desparate -- yet! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 3 17:48:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:48:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free: broken but possibly fixable sync-on-green monitor In-Reply-To: <20050502183543.52c639ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 2, 5 06:35:43 pm Message-ID: > > The CRT on a Mac Plus is probably one of the easiest video tubes to > replace. It's nice and small, and it's not many screws to get a Plus The other advantage is that it's a monochorme CRT, so there's little setting up to do.... Most people here won't have had to set up a delta-gun colour CRT from scratch, but there's about 20 adjustmets, many of which interact. I had to do the one in my Barco TV monitor which had been 'repaired' by its previous owner. After sorting out the EHT regulator, the kludges to the convergence board, etc, I then had to set everything up... -tony From william.layer at comcast.net Tue May 3 19:34:43 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:34:43 -0500 Subject: S-100 (Altair) SRAM board needed badly Message-ID: <20050503193443.057c3271.william.layer@comcast.net> Hi all, I read the recent threads about S-100 hauls, so I'm putting out the request for a SRAM board for the Altair 8800 that I'm putting back together. Just about anything is fine; 1K, 4K, 8K etc. As long as it's static ram, and will work with the original i8080 CPU. Can pay cash. Thanks, Bill -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From tponsford at theriver.com Tue May 3 19:43:04 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 17:43:04 -0700 Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal Message-ID: <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> Hi All, I picked up a Prime computer PDT-100 terminal, sans keyboard, today at the auction. I have not (yet) started to collect Prime computer stuff, so I anybody who want this, It's Free, just pay the shipping. I'm not sure if it works OK, but it does power on! Give me a shout off-list! Cheers Tom From oldcomp at cox.net Tue May 3 20:13:04 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 18:13:04 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net In-Reply-To: <200505011552.j41FqEF0024921@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505011552.j41FqEF0024921@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <427821A0.5090300@cox.net> What I found is that the site lifted photos from my site without asking or telling me. But, at least they give links to the source pages! -Bryan > > I just ran across this site: > > http://www.1000bit.net/ > > It has some good information *and* photos of quite a few machines. The > concept seems to be that people register and make public information > about their machines. I had listed a bubble memory module (FBM43CA) on > VCM with no knowledge of what it went to. The information on Norm's > website at http://gallery.owt.com/~anheier/index.src told me that it > goes to Fujitsu's first micro, an M-8. I *think* we have a nice find > there! > > > ------------------------------ > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 3 20:33:03 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 20:33:03 -0500 Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal References: <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> Message-ID: <009c01c55049$38b444a0$19406b43@66067007> Where is the terminal located? (city/state) ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom ponsford" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 7:43 PM Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal > Hi All, > > I picked up a Prime computer PDT-100 terminal, sans keyboard, today at the > auction. I have not (yet) started to collect Prime computer stuff, so I > anybody who want this, It's Free, just pay the shipping. I'm not sure if > it works OK, but it does power on! > Give me a shout off-list! > > Cheers > > Tom > From allain at panix.com Tue May 3 20:06:51 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 21:06:51 -0400 Subject: BNC'ed Monitors branded "Intergraph" References: <008e01c55030$06266900$39406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <03d001c55045$8edde740$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> 90% of US probably know where to get monitors easily. But since we've discussed sync-on green BNC'ed video monitors, I thought I'd mention there is a dealer in west L.I. that is essentially throwing Intergraph, and other such monitors out. Contact me off list if you want to go and get them. 1995 vintage I think. I grabbed one for myself but had no room for more. Intergraph name has a good history to get a mention on-list. John A. From drb at msu.edu Tue May 3 21:31:31 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 22:31:31 -0400 Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 03 May 2005 17:43:04 PDT.) <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> References: <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> Message-ID: <200505040231.j442VVre010972@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I picked up a Prime computer PDT-100 terminal, sans keyboard, today at > the auction. I have not (yet) started to collect Prime computer stuff, > so I anybody who want this, It's Free, just pay the shipping. I'm > not sure if it works OK, but it does power on! Sure it's P_D_T, not P_S_T? I'm hardly the ultimate authority, but I don't recall hearing of the former. The latter was the standard console terminal for some years. De From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 3 21:37:33 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 22:37:33 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: <10504282355.ZM24904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> <10504282355.ZM24904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4278356D.7070902@splab.cas.neu.edu> Well, it sounds like a "1" can be made into a zero, and I have two extra "1"s that are available for the postabe. Joe Heck > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 3 21:59:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net In-Reply-To: <427821A0.5090300@cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2005, Bryan Blackburn wrote: > What I found is that the site lifted photos from my site without asking > or telling me. But, at least they give links to the source pages! I don't know for certain, but I believe the photos are uploaded by the users who register and create their database. So I don't believe it's the site owners ripping your stuff without credit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 3 22:09:12 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? In-Reply-To: <17015.31606.696623.299780@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050503013419.QOUE5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <200505030235.WAA22518@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17015.31606.696623.299780@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505040319.XAA14650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Current flowing != power being drawn. [...reactive vs resistive >> loads and power consumed != RMS volts * RMS amps...] >> An ideal capacitor or inductor, for example, presents a purely >> reactive load and consumes no power even though it draws current. > With a dual trace scope, or an X/Y scope, [...] Trigger on one, and > observe the two traces. Or feed them to X and Y and see how close > the Lissajous figure is to a circle. But lest you be confused - a circle Lissajous figure, or power and voltage 90? out of phase on a dual-trace display, indicates no power consumed, a purely reactive load. A purely resistive load has current and voltage in phase with one another - waveforms in sync on dual-trace, or a straight (diagonal) line on an X-Y display. (I'm sure Paul Koning knows this. I'm writing more for people who don't.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 3 22:20:13 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505040326.XAA14680@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Note that the body works perfectly well with substantially less air > than you get at sea level -- that's how you function in an airplane. "Less air" for what value of "air"? What the body wants, as I understand it, is a partial pressure of oxygen at least vaguely equal to that in the air it's used to. On airplanes, this is done by using a gas mixture (proportionately) richer in oxygen than air, at a lower pressure. (There are other issues associated with this too; for example, you don't want to lower the pressure too fast or you risk giving your passengers the bends. And anyone who hasn't learned to equalize pressure by opening the eustachian tubes between the nose-mouth cavity and the ears is liable to have uncomfortable ears.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From KParker at workcover.com Tue May 3 22:57:53 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:27:53 +0930 Subject: All things ESDI Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE7E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I'd be most grateful for a little advice from this list please. I'm finally getting my shed into order with my X'teen dozen computers etc. During the clean and tidy up process I came across a couple of old drives I grabbed a while go. These are both ESDI drives. For your info they re: * a Maxtor XT-8380E * a MiniScribe 9380E At the size of house brick I have to admire the engineering, particularly the Maxtor. You pick it up and you can feel the quality metaphorically speaking. I did some Googling on these drives last night and I found plenty about geometry but little else. It seems ESDI fitted somewhere between MFM/RLL and IDE all be it a very brief appearance but certainly the rationale for introducing the ESDI drives at the time was impressive for those times. The connectors on the ESDI drive appear to be the same as MFM so I am assuming that I can use MFM cables. I want to see if these drives are still operational but at this stage I don't have an ESDI controler. I do have a PS/2 Model 80 which I believe uses an ESDI controller but I'm not too sure about that or if this might even work. I could just power the drives up to see if they spin (which doesn't necessarily mean they work but it is a start). My only concern is that I could not ascertain if these types of drives require the heads to be parked before spinning down so I'm reluctant to do this at this stage. What little info I could find apart from geometry suggested that the only comtroller for these was an Adaptec ESDI Controller Card (possibly the ACB-2322D or ACB-2322 http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/support/suppdetail.jsp?sess=no&language =English+US&prodkey=ACB-2322B )but again its not abundantly clear. I am also assuming that if I slot an ESDI controller into a motherboard that the motherboard will recognise it as a hard disk controller without doing much else. Any clues greatly appreciated!!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From tponsford at theriver.com Tue May 3 22:46:23 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 20:46:23 -0700 Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal In-Reply-To: <200505040231.j442VVre010972@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> <200505040231.j442VVre010972@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4278458F.4050605@theriver.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > > I picked up a Prime computer PDT-100 terminal, sans keyboard, today at > > the auction. I have not (yet) started to collect Prime computer stuff, > > so I anybody who want this, It's Free, just pay the shipping. I'm > > not sure if it works OK, but it does power on! > >Sure it's P_D_T, not P_S_T? I'm hardly the ultimate authority, but >I don't recall hearing of the former. The latter was the standard >console terminal for some years. > >De > > My Bad! You are right!! it is a PST-100. Sorry for the confusion with the PDT which is a DEC (which I collect!) and I'm in Arizona! From drb at msu.edu Tue May 3 23:16:42 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:16:42 -0400 Subject: Prime PDT-100 terminal In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 03 May 2005 17:43:04 PDT.) <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> References: <42781A98.50601@theriver.com> Message-ID: <200505040416.j444GgnS013117@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I think I have a set of PST-100 manuals, if anyone needs photocopies or can scan for the archives. De From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 4 05:14:41 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 06:14:41 -0400 Subject: All things ESDI Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04598E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I did some Googling on these drives last night and I found > plenty about geometry but little else. It seems ESDI fitted > somewhere between MFM/RLL and IDE all be it a very brief > appearance but certainly the rationale for introducing the > ESDI drives at the time was impressive for those times. They came along just before SCSI and SCSI displaced them in the market. They were excellent performers in their day. > The connectors on the ESDI drive appear to be the same as MFM > so I am assuming that I can use MFM cables. I always did, but cannot assure you it would be correct. > My only > concern is that I could not ascertain if these types of > drives require the heads to be parked before spinning down so > I'm reluctant to do this at this stage. They are "new" enough they should auto-park. > clear. I am also assuming that if I slot an ESDI controller > into a motherboard that the motherboard will recognise it as > a hard disk controller without doing much else. The PC type Adaptecs had a configurable BIOS overlay like the later SCSI cards and would appear as a "standard" drive. Adaptec also made some controllers that were intended for native support by OS's and hardware designed for ESDI, such as the 3Com 3+Open servers (I used to support a bunch of the 3Com servers). From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 4 05:52:05 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:52:05 +0200 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <002001c54da9$8ecf76e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002001c54da9$8ecf76e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4278A955.20106@hachti.de> Hi Jim, > has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? Not in BASIC, but in C. >- it doesn't always pick up the paper > advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). What kind of interface does your Paper tape reader have? Serial RS232? Then you need only linux and perhaps one little modification to get it working flawlessly - let me know and I'll explain. I have once written a parallel paper tape reader emulator for my Honeywell. It is written in C without any assembly language. Runs under Linux and is a rough solution - don't expect too much. But it may contain some useful hints. http://h316.hachti.de/download/sw/tapeload-0.2.tar.gz > Will I have to go to a machine code routine to get the fast port access? If you use C it is not necessary... but there may be very different opinions :-) Best wishes, Philipp :-) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 06:51:12 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "May 3, 5 07:59:35 pm" Message-ID: <200505041151.EAA09430@floodgap.com> > > What I found is that the site lifted photos from my site without asking > > or telling me. But, at least they give links to the source pages! > > I don't know for certain, but I believe the photos are uploaded by the > users who register and create their database. So I don't believe it's the > site owners ripping your stuff without credit. Actually, I think it is, at least for some of them (the contributor is "WebMaster"). The Commodore section has a couple of photos ripped off from Secret Weapons of Commodore, and they don't even link back. One example is the Commodore 232 entry, which even includes the same backplate photo Dan Benson permitted me to use, in the same dimensions I cropped it to, with the same serial number, as well as the rear ports image. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm a dyslexic amateur orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- From wacarder at usit.net Wed May 4 08:00:21 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:00:21 -0400 Subject: DEC PC05 Paper Taper reader/punch Message-ID: <000e01c550a9$3b8eda40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Anybody out there got a DEC PC05 paper tape reader / punch they'd be willing to part with? Ashley From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed May 4 08:09:42 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 06:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <200505031721.j43HJKZY085442@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here to settle a question. Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed over a major city in this country. Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? Would having them unplugged help? Or must they be shielded in some way? Regards, Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 4 08:13:15 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:13:15 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505040326.XAA14680@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17016.51819.208796.645415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Note that the body works perfectly well with substantially less >> air than you get at sea level -- that's how you function in an >> airplane. der> "Less air" for what value of "air"? What the body wants, as I der> understand it, is a partial pressure of oxygen at least vaguely der> equal to that in the air it's used to. On airplanes, this is der> done by using a gas mixture (proportionately) richer in oxygen der> than air, at a lower pressure. Not true, unless you're thinking about fighter planes. Unpressurized planes (small planes) simply have the ambient air inside. Pressurized planes (airliners) compress the outside air roughly to the pressure that prevails around 8000 feet or so. It's still plain old air, 21 percent oxygen. Moderately healthy humans function fine up to about 10,000 feet, less so as you go up from there. This is why aviation rules allow pilots to fly unpressurized planes without restriction up to 10,000 feet, but require supplemental oxygen if they stay above 10k for more than 30 minutes (or above 14k for any time). Needless to say, mountain dwellers are more tolerant than that. paul From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed May 4 08:29:44 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:29:44 -0500 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200505031721.j43HJKZY085442@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Faraday cage and unplugged... that's just my first impression, but I think that would largely protect you, provided you weren't in the blast radius. Of course, this assumes that the method of EMP production is "safe" enough that one has to worry about one's collection (e.g. non-nuclear). -dhbarr. On 5/4/05, Al Hartman wrote: > I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here > to settle a question. > > Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > over a major city in this country. > > Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? > > Would having them unplugged help? > > Or must they be shielded in some way? > > Regards, > Al > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 4 08:28:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 13:28:45 +0000 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1115213325.3960.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 06:09 -0700, Al Hartman wrote: > I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here > to settle a question. > > Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > over a major city in this country. For various values of "this country", presumably... From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 4 08:31:26 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:31:26 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200505031721.j43HJKZY085442@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/4/05, Al Hartman wrote: > I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here > to settle a question. > > Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > over a major city in this country. > > Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? He'd better flee to the countryside because it is going to be a major war. > > Would having them unplugged help? > > Or must they be shielded in some way? > > Regards, > Al > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 08:35:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:35:54 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment > From: Al Hartman >Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed >over a major city in this country. > >Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect >their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? Yes. >Would having them unplugged help? Yes. >Or must they be shielded in some way? It would help. The reason for the terse questions is your asking a broad question. Basically EMP is a sudden expansion then contraction of a magnetic field. From basic electronics there are two ways to generate power using magnets (or their fields) one is to move the wire and the other is to move the magnet. The amount of energy induced into a wire is dependent on how many lines of force you traverse and thats related to how strong the magnets field is (also how close). We get EMP from two sources, one common. The nuke version can be very strong but if your close enough for EMP then you may be too close to worry. The other common source is lightinging, every bolt we see represents a momentary huge current that collapses very quckly with the attendent magnetic fields. There are two protection methods applied for lightining. One being electrostatic and the other recognizes the electromagnetic. Protection for the latter is simple most of the time. Disconnect the power cord, antennas, and any control lines. In short remove any "wires" that can have an induced field and transfer that voltage inside to the sensitive parts. Ideally for complete protection a iron or steel case with no breaks is best protection against near misses. In both cases distance fromthe event is a really good thing as magnetic fields are squarelaw IE: at twice the distance it's one quarter strength. So yes you can protect your hardware, assuming your far enough away to survive. You still ahve to worry about high energy particles (neutrons, beta and gamma particles) and other radiations ( Xrays and infared). Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 4 08:42:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 13:42:18 +0000 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in the day they were always pretty reliable. I can't imagine the people who made these things threw out all the decent equipment and replaced it with something made out of snot and string. Presumably it's a quality control issue? About 25% of Sony branded floppies seem to die on the first format, which is nice... Maybe it's a cunning ploy by the manufacturers to make otherwise-awful blank CDs look better :-) (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy that actually works 100%...) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 4 08:43:15 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:43:15 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <17016.51819.208796.645415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0505030608.AA28873@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <17015.32342.653956.359674@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505040326.XAA14680@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <17016.51819.208796.645415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050504084237.05033398@mail> At 08:13 AM 5/4/2005, Paul Koning wrote: >Unpressurized planes (small planes) simply have the ambient air >inside. Pressurized planes (airliners) compress the outside air >roughly to the pressure that prevails around 8000 feet or so. It's >still plain old air, 21 percent oxygen. They control the humidity, though, to save weight. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 4 08:45:57 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:45:57 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 May 2005 21:47:48 BST." <001201c55021$5f13e790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200505041345.j44DjvnP001681@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Antonio Carlini" wrote: >Paul Koning wrote: > >> I'm puzzled by some of the earlier discussion. In particular, >> the "displace all air" stuff sounds bogus. > >I'm sure it is. Even allowing for the fact that halon 1301 >(or whichever was the commonly used one) is heavier than air >and will therefore sink, I don't believe that a concentration I think the 'problem' may be that because it's heavier than air it can displace all the air in your lungs. Not the room, however. That's just what I was told, and did witness, with refrigerant. (and why I'd heed the advice to hold your breath :-) but to be honest, I have no idea if this is actually true. -brad From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 4 08:51:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:51:45 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <001201c55021$5f13e790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200505041345.j44DjvnP001681@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> "Antonio Carlini" wrote: >> Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> I'm puzzled by some of the earlier discussion. In particular, >>> the "displace all air" stuff sounds bogus. >> I'm sure it is. Even allowing for the fact that halon 1301 (or >> whichever was the commonly used one) is heavier than air and will >> therefore sink, I don't believe that a concentration Brad> I think the 'problem' may be that because it's heavier than air Brad> it can displace all the air in your lungs. Not the room, Brad> however. Brad> That's just what I was told, and did witness, with refrigerant. Brad> (and why I'd heed the advice to hold your breath :-) Brad> but to be honest, I have no idea if this is actually true. I very much doubt it. The story you quoted doesn't seem to have any connection with physics as I know it. paul From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed May 4 08:55:23 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:55:23 -0500 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm For more information, scan the 1996 report found here regarding non-nuclear EMP devices of the coaxial FCG / Vircator type. Basically you've got a small chemical explosive which ramps up in series and either directly affects the source in the 1ghz range or is pumped through a Vircator to target a range of frequencies. The two points of entry are "front door" antennas, dishes, etc.; and "back door" comm cables, electrical lines, etc. Like previous posters mentioned, a Faraday cage, fibre network connections, and good design can contain a significant fraction of the damage. A good EMP hardened server design can be seen, as well. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/faraday.gif -dhbarr. PS: Ever since that Popular Mechanics article on the subject, I've been intrigued. I don't know why. On 5/4/05, Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment > > From: Al Hartman > > >Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > >over a major city in this country. > > > >Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > >their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? > > Yes. > > > >Would having them unplugged help? > > Yes. > > > >Or must they be shielded in some way? > > It would help. > > The reason for the terse questions is your asking a broad > question. Basically EMP is a sudden expansion then contraction > of a magnetic field. From basic electronics there are two ways > to generate power using magnets (or their fields) one is to move > the wire and the other is to move the magnet. > > The amount of energy induced into a wire is dependent on how many > lines of force you traverse and thats related to how strong the > magnets field is (also how close). > > We get EMP from two sources, one common. The nuke version can > be very strong but if your close enough for EMP then you may be > too close to worry. The other common source is lightinging, every > bolt we see represents a momentary huge current that collapses > very quckly with the attendent magnetic fields. There are two > protection methods applied for lightining. One being electrostatic > and the other recognizes the electromagnetic. Protection for the > latter is simple most of the time. Disconnect the power cord, > antennas, and any control lines. In short remove any "wires" that > can have an induced field and transfer that voltage inside to the > sensitive parts. Ideally for complete protection a iron or steel > case with no breaks is best protection against near misses. In > both cases distance fromthe event is a really good thing as > magnetic fields are squarelaw IE: at twice the distance it's > one quarter strength. > > So yes you can protect your hardware, assuming your far enough > away to survive. You still ahve to worry about high energy > particles (neutrons, beta and gamma particles) and other > radiations ( Xrays and infared). > > > Allison > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 4 08:58:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 06:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Al Hartman wrote: > I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here > to settle a question. > > Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > over a major city in this country. > > Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? > > Would having them unplugged help? > > Or must they be shielded in some way? No Al, I'm afraid you're just going to have to play nice with the rest of the world's children so that sort of thing won't ever need to happen. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 4 09:02:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <17016.51819.208796.645415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Moderately healthy humans function fine up to about 10,000 feet, less > so as you go up from there. This is why aviation rules allow pilots > to fly unpressurized planes without restriction up to 10,000 feet, but > require supplemental oxygen if they stay above 10k for more than 30 > minutes (or above 14k for any time). > > Needless to say, mountain dwellers are more tolerant than that. I spent a month at 12,000 feet in Cuzco, Peru. It took a couple days to get acclimated (chewing coca leaves would've reduced this time). After the initial queasiness passed, it was just a matter of conditioning to get used to having less oxygen. When I got back home I felt great :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rws at ripco.com Wed May 4 09:07:26 2005 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > the day they were always pretty reliable. To add to the problem- why are modern floppy drives such junk? I was recently doing a 20-disk transfer between two computers, and after the second pass I had one disk that developed some outrageous errors in a particular band of tracks. So I looked at it- the drive had scratched the oxide off the media in a nice circle on one side around track 50. Didn't do it to any other disks in the stack. This had happened to me before, on other drives (all modern) with very little usage, and had never happened to me using pre-1995-or-so hardware with tons more usage. (All the drives I'm referring to are 3-1/2" of course) Richard From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 4 09:06:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 07:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > the day they were always pretty reliable. That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. > About 25% of Sony branded floppies seem to die on the first format, > which is nice... It seems to be all brands. 3Ms are particularly bad as well. > (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy > that actually works 100%...) Once you do find one, hang on to it. They're becoming as precious as gold. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 09:17:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:17:09 -0400 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <0IFY00394YCEAHH0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Modern floppy disk question... > From: Richard Schauer > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:07:26 -0500 (CDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >To add to the problem- why are modern floppy drives such junk? I was >recently doing a 20-disk transfer between two computers, and after the >second pass I had one disk that developed some outrageous errors in a >particular band of tracks. So I looked at it- the drive had scratched the >oxide off the media in a nice circle on one side around track 50. Didn't >do it to any other disks in the stack. This had happened to me before, on >other drives (all modern) with very little usage, and had never happened >to me using pre-1995-or-so hardware with tons more usage. > >(All the drives I'm referring to are 3-1/2" of course) > >Richard I've seen this before. It's related to PCs having fans that suck dust INTO the box usually via any opening even the floppy door. If you had cleaned all the dust bunnies out of the drive it's less likely. Now you will have to clean the heads of oxide and binder. My cure, noisier fan (more volume) turn it around to blow in and put an external easily cleaned filter. Many of the S100 systems and other boxed and fan cooled machina also had this problem. I've also seens plain bad media that had bad shed. Once the crud hit the head it stays there till you clean it. Until you do it scratches other floppies ruining them. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 4 09:21:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:21:31 -0600 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4278DA6B.4090805@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > >>Would having them unplugged help? >> >> > >Yes. > > > And also disconected from the phone lines. > > >>Or must they be shielded in some way? >> Don't forget to make your foil hat :) >>The reason for the terse questions is your asking a broad >>question. Basically EMP is a sudden expansion then contraction >>of a magnetic field. From basic electronics there are two ways >>to generate power using magnets (or their fields) one is to move >>the wire and the other is to move the magnet. >> >>The amount of energy induced into a wire is dependent on how many >>lines of force you traverse and thats related to how strong the >>magnets field is (also how close). >> >>We get EMP from two sources, one common. The nuke version can >>be very strong but if your close enough for EMP then you may be >>too close to worry. The other common source is lightinging, every >>bolt we see represents a momentary huge current that collapses >>very quckly with the attendent magnetic fields. There are two >>protection methods applied for lightining. One being electrostatic >>and the other recognizes the electromagnetic. Protection for the >>latter is simple most of the time. Disconnect the power cord, >>antennas, and any control lines. In short remove any "wires" that >>can have an induced field and transfer that voltage inside to the >>sensitive parts. Ideally for complete protection a iron or steel >>case with no breaks is best protection against near misses. In >>both cases distance fromthe event is a really good thing as >>magnetic fields are squarelaw IE: at twice the distance it's >>one quarter strength. >> >>So yes you can protect your hardware, assuming your far enough >>away to survive. You still ahve to worry about high energy >>particles (neutrons, beta and gamma particles) and other >>radiations ( Xrays and infared). >> >> Except for your CLASSIC 8's ... you just can't kill them. Ben alias woodelf From marvin at rain.org Wed May 4 09:29:19 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:29:19 -0700 Subject: All things ESDI Message-ID: <4278DC3F.F43C69BA@rain.org> > The connectors on the ESDI drive appear to be the same as MFM so I am > assuming that I can use MFM cables. I have always used the same cables used for MFM on ESDI drives with no problems. > What little info I could find apart from geometry suggested that the > only comtroller for these was an Adaptec ESDI Controller Card (possibly > the ACB-2322D or ACB-2322 I don't believe that is true; any ESDI controller should work. A Core ESDI controller was what I used on some of the Maxtor ESDI drives with no problems. I do not know if changing the controller brand would require another low-level format for the drive to work properly. The controller cards (at least for the ones I used) have the formatting routines built into the BIOS and I *think* they are accessed in the same way as XT HD controller cards, i.e. debug g=C006 (?). > I am also assuming that if I slot an ESDI controller into a motherboard > that the motherboard will recognise it as a hard disk controller without > doing much else. I don't think that will work. ISTR that the instructions for the controller just said to set the HD Type to 1. While cleaning up here, I am looking for an ESDI HD that contains the BBS run by Harvey Wheeler (co-author of the book FailSafe.) Harvey ran a multiuser BBS called the Virtual Academy running PC Board that I would like to find again. (He died last September and a friend of mine has been getting stuff together that Harvey was involved with.) When I find it, I may be able to comment more about how it is set up. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Wed May 4 08:31:06 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:31:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > > the day they were always pretty reliable. > > That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely > read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk > 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern > 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. I've always put this down to the vast increase of track density on the media. Of course, I could be full of fluff, but it would certainly explain why I can read my 30 year old 8" floppies (Which I could almost use a microscope to pick out the 0s and 1s) and why 1.44MB (or greater?) 3.5" disks are such a disappointment. I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that cannot be killed. This, however, might be a false excuse - but I like to use it anyway. (Of course, sometimes I prefer to just say Maxtor's suck and dream of the day I can afford an all SCSI disk system) Anyways. My potential delusion unleashed. JP From marvin at rain.org Wed May 4 09:44:13 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:44:13 -0700 Subject: Seven Segment Displays Message-ID: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running between the two contacts. The only markings I see are "Japan" and "3015-5" on the back and "C-27-09" on the side. My suspicion is that they are incandescent but I haven't found any information on them yet using Google. Does anyone know what these things are called? From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 4 09:50:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:50:14 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays References: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> Message-ID: <17016.57638.305996.623679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Marvin" == Marvin Johnston writes: Marvin> I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP Marvin> package. These displays have a glass cover and each of the Marvin> segments have a wire running between the two contacts. The Marvin> only markings I see are "Japan" and "3015-5" on the back and Marvin> "C-27-09" on the side. My suspicion is that they are Marvin> incandescent but I haven't found any information on them yet Marvin> using Google. Does anyone know what these things are called? I don't remember any distinctive name for those, other than perhaps "incandescent 7 segment display". Yes, those existed for a short while back when LEDs were very expensive and not particularly bright. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 4 09:46:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:46:59 -0600 Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> References: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> Message-ID: <4278E063.8050603@jetnet.ab.ca> Marvin Johnston wrote: >I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These >displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running >between the two contacts. The only markings I see are "Japan" and >"3015-5" on the back and "C-27-09" on the side. My suspicion is that >they are incandescent but I haven't found any information on them yet >using Google. Does anyone know what these things are called? > > > look around here as they have pictures of several older display devices. > http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed May 4 10:07:45 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <4278DC3F.F43C69BA@rain.org> References: <4278DC3F.F43C69BA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I don't believe that is true; any ESDI controller should work. A Core > ESDI controller was what I used on some of the Maxtor ESDI drives with > no problems. I do not know if changing the controller brand would > require another low-level format for the drive to work properly. The > controller cards (at least for the ones I used) have the formatting > routines built into the BIOS and I *think* they are accessed in the same > way as XT HD controller cards, i.e. debug g=C006 (?). Back when the cost of SCSI drives was dear and MFM had limited capacity, I picked up a couple of refurbished ESDI drives and an Everex EV-348 controller (still have it). It was more or less a drop in replacment for a 16-bit ISA MFM controller, with an on board BIOS and support for 2 floppy and 2 hard drives. http://rtgo.hopto.org/th99/c/E-H/20101.htm Default BIOS address was C8000h and could be disabled. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed May 4 10:39:53 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:39:53 +0200 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: Message-ID: <002101c550bf$83fcb700$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:58 PM Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Al Hartman wrote: > > > I was hoping to tap in to the combined expertise here > > to settle a question. > > > > Let's say that tomorrow, and EMP weapon is employed > > over a major city in this country. > > > > Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > > their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? > > > > Would having them unplugged help? > > > > Or must they be shielded in some way? > > No Al, I'm afraid you're just going to have to play nice with the rest of > the world's children so that sort of thing won't ever need to happen. > > -- > This question is in my realm, as I am a CBRN specialist in the danish National Guard. There is only one thing that can be done : enclose all electronic things in a Faraday cage. So the answer to your question is : No, Joe Average cant do shit. Unplugging is no help, as the electromagnetic forces are so big, that even the small wire between e.g. an antenna jack and the HF amplifier will act as an antenna and fry the first stage. Wires towards the loudspeaker will take care of the rest. And with the plastic radios we have today, every single wire can and will act as an antenne, blowing everything in its vincinity skyhigh. Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 4 10:43:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:43:01 +0000 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1115221381.3943.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 08:31 -0500, JP Hindin wrote: > > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > > > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > > > the day they were always pretty reliable. > > > > That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely > > read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk > > 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern > > 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. > > I've always put this down to the vast increase of track density on the > media. Of course, I could be full of fluff, but it would certainly explain > why I can read my 30 year old 8" floppies (Which I could almost use a > microscope to pick out the 0s and 1s) and why 1.44MB (or > greater?) 3.5" disks are such a disappointment. Sorry, should have been clearer - I mean for the same type of media. i.e. 3.5 HD floppies from ten years ago seem to be consistently *way* better than brand-new branded 3.5" media. I can't believe there was a change in the equipment because typically the same manufacturers who used to make floppies still do, so presumably it's a quality issue. I've just been going through some floppies bought within the last two years (mainly Sony, but not likely to be from the same batch) - I've pulled apart the failures and they all seem to have discolouration or streaks / smears on the surfaces. In other words, it's not a density issue (i.e. higher density media is more prone to failure - although of course that holds true too) - more of a quality / fabrication issue. What I don't understand is how the "decent" manufaturers did a good job for so many years and then started churning out junk; it's not like 50 years passed and the knowledge of how to make a floppy disk got lost or anything!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 4 10:47:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:47:22 +0000 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1115221642.3960.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 07:06 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy > > that actually works 100%...) > > Once you do find one, hang on to it. They're becoming as precious as > gold. Heh heh, I remember in the mid/late 90's I had a HD floppy (Verbatim I think it was) that just would not die. It probably went through a full data cycle / format twice a week on average for many years and refused to ever throw up a bad block. You're right though; I think I'll just pitch these boxes of new media in the bin and fetch some surplus used media down from the loft to keep by the desk - at least it works! cheers J. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 10:24:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <54183.63.201.59.109.1115220251.squirrel@63.201.59.109> Jules wrote: > (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy > that actually works 100%...) I last purchased 1440K floppy diskettes about three years ago. Got two Maxell brand boxes of 100, and haven't run out yet, or had any failures. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 10:32:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 08:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <41784.63.201.59.109.1115220771.squirrel@63.201.59.109> Richard wrote: > To add to the problem- why are modern floppy drives such junk? For $10 you expect quality? (Other than the quality of being junk?) It's another triumph of crapitalism. When everyone (to a first approximation) is more concerned about price than quality, all the manufacturers produce low-priced junk, because there's not enough demand for a quality product to make it worthwhile to manufacture. If someone tried to sell a really high-quality drive today, they'd probably have to price it at $75 or more, and how many could they sell at that price? I haven't had too much trouble with new Teac drives purchased in the last year. I really don't understand how they can manufacture these, ship them across the ocean to a distributor, the distributor ships them to a dealer, and the dealer sells them to me for $10, and someone makes a profit at each step. Making a floppy drive (even not a very good one) still requires some precision manufacturing. If all they had to do was pick them up off the ground (like a rock), put it in a box, ship it across the ocean, to the distributor, to the dealer, and finally to me, I'd have expected to have to pay more than $10 for it. Eric From marvin at rain.org Wed May 4 11:01:06 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:01:06 -0700 Subject: Seven Segment Displays Message-ID: <4278F1C2.2F0FF67@rain.org> An amazing site; thanks for posting it! According to this site, they are called Minitrons and they even had the datasheet for them. Thanks!!! > >I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These > >displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running > > > look around here as they have pictures of several older display devices. > > http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 4 11:30:18 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:30:18 +0100 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE7E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE7E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <575131af0505040930671a790e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/4/05, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > I'd be most grateful for a little advice from this list please. Ick. I tried resurrecting some old ESDI drives a few years ago while rebuilding my PS/2 Model 80-A21. I managed to obtain MCA, ISA & EISA controllers and a bag of cables for free to go with the 2 or 3 drives I had. I used to install & run loads of these things in the late 1980s. I couldn't get a single one going. Endless errors about drives not found or not responding. In the end I gave them all to a mate of mine rebuilding a PDP/11 who has vastly more low-level knowledge than I - he writes BIOSes for a living. Same cables as MFM or RLL, yes, and software-compatible. AIUI it was essentially higher-performance RLL which moved more of the controller logic from the host adaptor onto the drive itself for better speed, a trend that ultimately resulted in IDE a few years later. IDE is also called ATA, of course, for AT-attachment - these drives are smart enough to connect straight into an AT (ISA) bus. ESDI was common in high-performance machines and for "large" drives - 120MB was about the smallest I saw (when 20MB - 40MB was still common) and ~330MB was typical. I have heard of ~600MB units but never installed one. It's an Int11 device, just like an ST-506 drive. The BIOS needs to be configured with the right number of heads, cylinders and sectors-per-track, tho' picking type 20 or so will usually give you enough to boot and read the true settings off the drive itself. They will probably need to be low-level formatted if moving them from one controller to another. DEBUG and then G=c800:5 is what I dimly recall for this, tho' in later years I used CheckIt or even SpinRite to do this. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 4 11:44:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:44:46 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4278FBFE.3020202@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I spent a month at 12,000 feet in Cuzco, Peru. It took a couple days to Now just what vintage systems were you salvaging in Peru? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 4 11:53:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:53:18 -0500 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely > read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk > 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern > 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. Two words: Track density. Old 5.25" disks spread (in the case of IBM PC-land) 180KB per side of 5.25" surface area... later disks crammed four times as much in roughly half the surface area. I have had exactly one 5.25" disk go bad in storage in the last 25 years, but my 3.5" disks haven't been as lucky. > Once you do find one, hang on to it. They're becoming as precious as > gold. ebay auctions are good for lots of 100 or more 3.5" disks for $15 or so... they're old disks, so the quality is probably better, and you can format them all and ditch the ones that have errors. Works for me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 4 11:57:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 11:57:19 -0500 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115221642.3960.59.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115221642.3960.59.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4278FEEF.9050208@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Heh heh, I remember in the mid/late 90's I had a HD floppy (Verbatim I > think it was) that just would not die. It probably went through a full > data cycle / format twice a week on average for many years and refused > to ever throw up a bad block. It performed well BECAUSE you put it through a format twice a week. You can punch a hole in the other side of a DDSD 720K disk and use it as a DSHD 1.44MB floppy 100% reliably *as long as you write to it once a week*. I did this in college to transfer data between friends every day (early 1990s, no networking) -- I took the school-issued DSDD disks and burnt a hole on the other side with my soldiering iron to make them work as 1.44MB disks. They were formatted once a month and written to at least once a day. I found a few of them a few years ago and tried to read them -- not a single single track was error-free :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 4 11:59:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:59:32 -0700 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: <0IFY00HWLWFN06N0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4278DA6B.4090805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4278FF74.CB9D7484@msm.umr.edu> woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > > > > >>Would having them unplugged help? > >> > >> > > > >Yes. > > > > no, EMP as related to an atmospheric nuclear explosion is caused because of the release of energy from the atmosphere ionized by the radiation pulse sent by the blast. when the ionized gases recombine, they release a huge amount of radio frequency radiation in a pulse. This causes any junctions to have induced a potential across them, unrelated to being plugged into anything. This is similar to the damage from static electricity, but is not related to direct conduction and release of potential to ground, which static usually is, but is rather induced potentially deep inside any devices however well shielded. The only way to guard against this is to engineer all junctions and circuits to withstand and survive this potential. This is also the reason that vacumn tube circuits recover faster or at least they should, if the circuits don't get damaged by a sudden jump in potential passing thru them and settle back down. They don't have solid state junctions to be damaged permanently in such an event, and in theory should settle back to original function. note that satellites in orbit, or airborne aircraft can be equally at risk to EMP. Note that the high potential caused by lighting is mostly caused by conduction, not by the field of the bolt. It is an excess of electrons looking for a path that cause the damage there. Nuke EMP is from the radiation pulse and is effective far from the point of the blast, which is why it could be an effective threat over hundreds of miles distant. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed May 4 12:24:23 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:24:23 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <200505041708.j44H82rt097101@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505041724.j44HOMWZ028292@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: It's another triumph of crapitalism ... I really don't understand how they can manufacture these, ship them across the ocean to a distributor, the distributor ships them to a dealer, and the dealer sells them to me for $10, and someone makes a profit at each step. Making a floppy drive (even not a very good one) still requires some precision manufacturing. If all they had to do was pick them up off the ground (like a rock), put it in a box, ship it across the ocean, to the distributor, to the dealer, and finally to me, I'd have expected to have to pay more than $10 for it. ...... It's only by the virtues of "capitalism" that you can buy a working floppy drive for $10. From cb at mythtech.net Wed May 4 12:34:35 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:34:35 -0400 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: > You can >punch a hole in the other side of a DDSD 720K disk and use it as a DSHD >1.44MB >floppy 100% reliably *as long as you write to it once a week*. I never found that to be true. I found that they would only last a handful of read/writes before having errors and dying entirely (once they had errors, they never seemed to reformat again after that). These would be continuous use. I always had to treat them like a time bomb, I'd format, copy files to it, and know that I have about 5 or 6 uses over the next half over before the disk went bad. Basically, it was reliable enough to act as an emergency disk to move files from one machine directly to another, and then expect to throw out the disk when done. I found the same to be true if you put tape over the HD hole and used it as DD. But most of my testing was on Macs so maybe they were more picky about the integrity of the disk then PCs were (I've done it on PCs as well, and I don't recall there being a different result, but I also never approached it scientifically and paid enough attention to all the variables, so maybe they worked better and I just didn't notice it). -chris From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 4 12:38:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:38:56 -0500 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <427908B0.6040904@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > the day they were always pretty reliable. I've said this several times recently - there are no good new-manufacture floppies on the shelves. There may be somebody still making good ones, but they don't sell through the major stores. In my job I use a lot of floppies as PeeCee boot disks, backup demonstrations, driver distribution, etc, and still go through a couple hundred 3.5" floppies a year. I'm ashamed to say that all my old stock is reserved for my own use, but what I hand out in class or to clients gets a LLF and verification, then a read test after the data's written, on *every* floppy. Believe it or not, Imation seems to be about the best anymore with a 15-20% first-write failure. If they survive the first low-level format, they're generally dependable for a dozen or so read-write cycles. IBM sends me unmarked black disks which I think are 3M, and about 35% of those fail the first LLF. They're also extremely likely to leave the shutter in the drive. > I can't imagine the people who made these things threw out all the > decent equipment and replaced it with something made out of snot and > string. Presumably it's a quality control issue? I just assume it's more of the "yeah, so whatcha gonna do about it?" attitude that permeates manufactured products in the 21st century. > About 25% of Sony branded floppies seem to die on the first format, > which is nice... I just snark up everything that shows up at the local thrifts. > Maybe it's a cunning ploy by the manufacturers to make otherwise-awful > blank CDs look better :-) I think you attribute an invalid level of organization and intelligence to said manufacturers.... > (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy > that actually works 100%...) Pretty pathetic when the old AOL floppies are better than you can buy. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 4 12:48:06 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:48:06 -0500 Subject: Speaking of ESDI Message-ID: <42790AD6.60800@mdrconsult.com> Does anyone have docs for a Dilog DQ656 Qbus ESDI controller? It's got a couple of banks of DIP switches and I'd like to know what they do before I try to run it. Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 4 12:48:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 10:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <200505041748.KAA13756@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "jim stephens" > >no, >EMP as related to an atmospheric nuclear explosion is caused because >of the release of energy from the atmosphere ionized by the radiation >pulse >sent by the blast. > Hi My understanding is that it is most effectively caused by an above atmosphere explosion? Still, if you are on the edge of where damage is minimum, unpowered equipment will survive better than powered up equipment. Things like unplugging can help if the pulse source is far enough way. Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 4 13:08:10 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:08:10 -0400 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... References: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00b301c550d4$3b7fb080$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Modern floppy disk question... > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely > > read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk > > 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern > > 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. > > Two words: Track density. Old 5.25" disks spread (in the case of IBM PC-land) > 180KB per side of 5.25" surface area... later disks crammed four times as much > in roughly half the surface area. I have had exactly one 5.25" disk go bad in > storage in the last 25 years, but my 3.5" disks haven't been as lucky. > > > Once you do find one, hang on to it. They're becoming as precious as > > gold. > > ebay auctions are good for lots of 100 or more 3.5" disks for $15 or so... > they're old disks, so the quality is probably better, and you can format them > all and ditch the ones that have errors. Works for me. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ ebay currently has a seller selling Mac formatted 1.44 disks for $6.99 BIN and $5 shipping for 250PCs look for quasiman Item number 5191185070 From drb at msu.edu Wed May 4 13:21:48 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:21:48 -0400 Subject: All things ESDI Message-ID: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ESDI was common in high-performance machines and for "large" drives > - 120MB was about the smallest I saw (when 20MB - 40MB was still > common) and ~330MB was typical. I have heard of ~600MB units but > never installed one. I think I handled a 600 in a Novell server once. > It's an Int11 device, just like an ST-506 drive. The BIOS needs > to be configured with the right number of heads, cylinders and > sectors-per-track, tho' picking type 20 or so will usually give you > enough to boot and read the true settings off the drive itself. They > will probably need to be low-level formatted if moving them from > one controller to another. DEBUG and then G=c800:5 is what I dimly > recall for this, tho' in later years I used CheckIt or even SpinRite > to do this. I'm inclined to disagree, though I'm hardly the expert. Specifically, I recall having trouble setting up several ESDI drives in servers. The fix was to tell the machine BIOS the disk didn't exist, then let the ESDI controller BIOS work out geometry. I think on some ESDI controllers, the C800:5 trick did work, though. That was a common disk interface, MFM, ESDI etc. De From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 13:38:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:38:53 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > From: jim stephens >EMP as related to an atmospheric nuclear explosion is caused because >of the release of energy from the atmosphere ionized by the radiation >pulse sent by the blast. Radiation as in Energetic Particles or as Waves like EM? >when the ionized gases recombine, they release a huge amount of radio >frequency radiation in a pulse. This causes any junctions to have >induced a potential across them, unrelated to being plugged into anything. That pulse wouldn't happen to be ELECTROMAGNETIC would it? >This is similar to the damage from static electricity, but is not related >to >direct conduction and release of potential to ground, which static >usually is, but is rather induced potentially deep inside any devices >however well shielded. Your confusing netrons and gamma particles that go through most everything to Electromagnetic waves that don't. Faraday shield will stop or suffifiently attenuate EM waves. >The only way to guard against this is to engineer all junctions and >circuits to withstand and survive this potential. That makes stuff resistant. >This is also the reason that vacumn tube circuits recover faster or at >least they should, if the circuits don't get damaged by a sudden jump >in potential passing thru them and settle back down. They don't have >solid state junctions to be damaged permanently in such an event, and >in theory should settle back to original function. Wrong in part. Tubes are more resistant as anything that nominally operates with hundreds of volts is less likely to be terminally affected by a 20V spike. However a piece of logic that runs on 5V will be totaled with even a 1V spike. >note that satellites in orbit, or airborne aircraft can be equally at >risk to EMP. Yes they are. At least the electronics will be. A C150 flying behind a real honest to dog Slick magneto won't even notice it. However Sats die not only from the EM fields from solar storms they also suffer from the ionizing radiation that literally posions the silicon and it's doping. >Note that the high potential caused by lighting is mostly caused by >conduction, not by the field of the bolt. It is an excess of electrons >looking for a path that cause the damage there. Really wrong! While that is the primary damage path it is far from the only path. Near hits are a danger due to the EM field resulting. I have a computer that was damaged by EMP from a direct hit to the house I was in at the time. It was not connected to power or terminal. The damaged chips were near the physical edges close to openings as the case (NS* horizon with wood cover) was not 100% enclosure. The terminal (an H19) was totaled. It too was no cables connected and line cord laying on the ground. Another machine in the house that was connected was totaled. A portable battery operated common 6 transistor AM radio was cooked, mixer/osc transistor connected to internal loopstick antenna was shorted(that's a magnetic loop!). Remember in an intense EM field any wire is the load side of a transformer (or field of a generator) and the connected circuits have to dissipate the power induced in that winding. > Nuke EMP is from the radiation pulse and is effective far from >the point of the blast, which is why it could be an effective >threat over hundreds of miles distant. Even then inverse square law says no, not that far. Check the various studies done with the Nevada desert blasts and out in the Pacific. Military field radios are EMP resistant. Ever look at field radios? They have everything going in or out through connectors, when connectors are unplugged there are conductive caps placed over the connector and the cases are all continous conductive including closeable covers on things like speakers. This is partially to protect against handeling and environment but also EMP. If "you" a user are far enough away to survive without ill effects likely those radios will. The key is anything too close is at risk. Distance is safety. For known cases, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Pacific Islands that safe distance only a few miles from ground zero. This does not include radioactive fallout and it's longer term poisoning. Further in the desert where thy did underground blasts for years at the top of the hole were older computers with CORE memory that were subjected to both EMP and physical shock waves. Usually the system was trashed due to the trailier being tossed around but, the cores would be pulled and read if the machines were too mechanically damaged. Fact, bombs are bad. Being close to them is very bad. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 13:41:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 14:41:50 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <0IFZ00H3BALI19Q1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > My understanding is that it is most effectively caused >by an above atmosphere explosion? > Still, if you are on the edge of where damage is minimum, >unpowered equipment will survive better than powered up >equipment. Things like unplugging can help if the pulse >source is far enough way. >Dwight > Distance is everything as it's a inverse square law thing. If it weren't the sun would have done us in already, though it does occasionally throw a good one at us like last fall. Allison From tomj at wps.com Wed May 4 13:45:22 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <41784.63.201.59.109.1115220771.squirrel@63.201.59.109> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> <41784.63.201.59.109.1115220771.squirrel@63.201.59.109> Message-ID: <20050504113745.F1126@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > If all they had to > do was pick them up off the ground (like a rock), put it in a box, ship > it across the ocean, to the distributor, to the dealer, and finally to > me, I'd have expected to have to pay more than $10 for it. ROFL! No shit -- for $12 I bought a replacement 3.5" floppy. All in all, it's pretty spectacular; this incredibly precise (though not precise enough :-) metal plastic and silicon thing. That's corporate culture for you. 99.9% of the western monied world rarely uses floppies at all, and even then only occasionally for the odd legacy floppy. Basically no one gives a shit anymore about floppies. There used to be entire magazine articles devoted to them. Today, many computer owners don't even know what one is. Floppies suck (as much as I like my 8" Shugart), good riddance. Let's bring back 1/2" magtape instead! Much cooler! Compare old sci fi movies; how many use burping floppy drives to impress? Zilch -- boring! A room full of floor-standing vacuum column tape drives! Tres f*cking cool! From tomj at wps.com Wed May 4 13:50:34 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050504114744.Y1126@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > the day they were always pretty reliable. Which OS are you talking about? In spite of my negative rant, I do occasionally use 3.5" floppies. Usually floor-sweepings, whatever crappy thing I have laying about (as it's usually non-critical xfers to old machines, that sort of thing, not precious legacy disks). I have few problems, but I do all floppy copying under linux or freebsd. I wouldn't be surprised if later microsoft OS products severely compromise floppy code out of disinterest. I use USB floppy drives, and one refurb HP desktop that runs WinXP Pro. No idea what drive is in it, but it always works. Can't recall a media problem on it. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 4 13:55:12 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:55:12 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <200505041724.j44HOMWZ028292@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c550da$ce6a4210$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Barry Watzman wrote: > It's only by the virtues of "capitalism" that you can buy a > working floppy drive for $10. But the original complaint is that he _cannot_ buy a _working_ floppy drive! Antonio PS - all mine work :-) -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 13:58:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 11:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <200505041724.j44HOMWZ028292@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200505041708.j44H82rt097101@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200505041724.j44HOMWZ028292@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <39776.207.145.53.202.1115233103.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Barry wrote. > It's only by the virtues of "capitalism" that you can buy a working floppy > drive for $10. Capitalism is good, but it's not perfect. There are some drawbacks, such as that I can only buy a *mostly* working floppy drive for $10 and mostly *nonworking* floppy diskettes for pennies. I can't buy newly manufactured high-quality drives or diskettes for any price, because they simply aren't made. Back in the mid-to-late 1980s, (some) floppy drives were of better manufacture, and also cost much more. Of course, there were poor-quality ones back then as well. The phenomenon that the poor quality products drive the good ones out of the market, due to consumers unwillingness to spen is called "crapitalism", or by less cynical people, the "race to the bottom". From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 4 14:22:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <4278FBFE.3020202@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I spent a month at 12,000 feet in Cuzco, Peru. It took a couple days to > > Now just what vintage systems were you salvaging in Peru? ;-) All I found was a copy of Programming the IBM 360 (Spanish edition) in a miscellaneous shop (yes, I bought it :) I also discovered the Quipu, which is what the Inca's used to store information. I wrote a paper on it: http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=002 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 4 14:25:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely > > read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk > > 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern > > 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. > > Two words: Track density. Old 5.25" disks spread (in the case of IBM > PC-land) 180KB per side of 5.25" surface area... later disks crammed > four times as much in roughly half the surface area. I have had exactly > one 5.25" disk go bad in storage in the last 25 years, but my 3.5" disks > haven't been as lucky. This being the case, it still doesn't explain, as Jules edified, why contemporary 3.5" disks suck and older 3.5" media worked fine. It also wouldn't explain why we have 300GB hard drives today that work just as reliably if not more so than 10MB drives of 20 years ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 14:28:28 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> References: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42964.207.145.53.202.1115234908.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim wrote: > Two words: Track density. Old 5.25" disks spread (in the case of IBM > PC-land) Track density is definitely NOT the problem. The track density of a 720K 3.5" floppy is so low compared to the flux density along a track that the former is essentially irrelevant. Track density is 135.5 TPI, but flux density ranges from 4885.8 FTPI on track 0 side 0 to 8323.0 FTPI on track 79 of side 1. (Double those FTPI numbers for 1440K disks.) The increases to the FTPI were accompanied by changes to the oxide formulation to have higher coercivity. Most 720K 3.5" disks from the early 1980s and 1440K 3.5" disks from the late 1980s are fine, though there was some bad stuff back then as well. But today it seems that none of it is good. It's definitely the quality of newly manufactured media at fault, since the older media still works well. Eric From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 4 14:43:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:43:53 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:31 AM 5/4/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 4 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to >> > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in >> > the day they were always pretty reliable. >> >> That's a really good question. I'd like an answer myself. I routinely >> read disks that are 20-25-30 years old with few problems, yet I can't walk >> 10 feet to another computer and recover a file I just copied onto a modern >> 3.5" disk without the disk going bad. Go figure. > >I've always put this down to the vast increase of track density on the >media. Of course, I could be full of fluff, but it would certainly explain >why I can read my 30 year old 8" floppies (Which I could almost use a >microscope to pick out the 0s and 1s) and why 1.44MB (or >greater?) 3.5" disks are such a disappointment. > >I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to >eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that >cannot be killed. This, however, might be a false excuse - but I like to >use it anyway. (Of course, sometimes I prefer to just say Maxtor's suck >and dream of the day I can afford an all SCSI disk system) It's not just high density. The newest maxtors DO suck! So do the latest Seagates. For the ones of you that didn't know it, Glen Goodwin operates a computer repair shop and has had LOTS of experience with this. I talked to him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. I bought one and have had NO trouble with it (knock on wood!). All of the Seagates and Maxtors that I've tried in the last few years have failed within six months. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 4 14:48:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:48:31 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <4278F1C2.2F0FF67@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050504154831.014ba320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Sphere has a VERY interesting site. Among other things they have a Tektronix and HP part number cross reference. If any of you have PN cross references, send them to him and he'll add them to the collection. Joe At 09:01 AM 5/4/05 -0700, Marvin wrote: > >An amazing site; thanks for posting it! According to this site, they are >called Minitrons and they even had the datasheet for them. Thanks!!! > >> >I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These >> >displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running >> > >> look around here as they have pictures of several older display devices. >> >> http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog >> >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:44:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050504133910.M79397@shell.lmi.net> It used to be that EVERY diskette manufacturer would occasionally put out a bad batch. For example, Verbatim was pretty decent. Then they came out with absolutely terrible disks. Then, when they fixed that, they came up with the "Datalife" product name as a way to try to tell us that their new ones were not the same as the recent crap. Even Dysan, who had the best reputation, occasionally had bad batches. Dysan's fall from prominence seems to have been due to betting the company on their Dysan 3.25" software publishing venture, not from losing their reputation. But these days EVERY manufacturer seems to be putting out poorer quality. And AOHell is sending out CDs instead of floppies. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 4 15:48:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM1 and perSYMone Message-ID: <200505042048.NAA13834@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Does anyone in this group have a perSYMone disk interface for the SYM1? Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 15:50:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050504130942.1442.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050504134720.Y79397@shell.lmi.net> > Is there anything an average citizen can do to protect > their Computers (Classic or otherwise)? > Would having them unplugged help? > Or must they be shielded in some way? average citizen? NO. But among THIS group, a large collection (such as Sellam's) has so many machines that the ones at the periphery would be sufficient to provide shielding for the ones in the middle. Q: How many HPaqs does it take to make an adequate Faraday cage? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 4 16:01:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:01:40 -0500 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42793834.3000108@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > I have a computer that was damaged by EMP from a direct hit to the > house I was in at the time. It was not connected to power or terminal. Your house was hit by a nuclear device? (Kidding, obviously; what caused the EMP? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhoger at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:03:31 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:03:31 -0700 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <20050504114744.Y1126@localhost> References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050504114744.Y1126@localhost> Message-ID: On 5/4/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > I use USB floppy drives, and one refurb HP desktop that runs WinXP > Pro. No idea what drive is in it, but it always works. Can't > recall a media problem on it. > > Allison made the point that fans sucking dirt into the drive probably causes problems. I've found the same thing. Using an external floppy drive, USB or otherwise, is one way to take the fan out of the equation. -- John. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 4 16:06:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:06:07 -0500 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <42964.207.145.53.202.1115234908.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> <42964.207.145.53.202.1115234908.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <4279393F.1080405@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Track density is definitely NOT the problem. The track density of a > 720K 3.5" floppy is so low compared to the flux density along a track that > the former is essentially irrelevant. Track density is 135.5 TPI, but > flux density ranges from 4885.8 FTPI on track 0 side 0 to 8323.0 FTPI > on track 79 of side 1. (Double those FTPI numbers for 1440K disks.) > > The increases to the FTPI were accompanied by changes to the oxide > formulation to have higher coercivity. Most 720K 3.5" disks from the > early 1980s and 1440K 3.5" disks from the late 1980s are fine, though > there was some bad stuff back then as well. But today it seems that > none of it is good. It's definitely the quality of newly manufactured > media at fault, since the older media still works well. I stand corrected :-) To which I can only conjecture: Today there is less of a demand for 3.5" media, so maybe the lack of competition/demand results in an inferior product due to cost cutting? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:21:47 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:21:47 -0500 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 5/4/05, Joe R. wrote: > At 08:31 AM 5/4/05 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >On Wed, 4 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > >> > often develop problems after only one or two writes - whereas back in > >> > the day they were always pretty reliable. > >> > >I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to > >eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that > >cannot be killed. This, however, might be a false excuse - but I like to > >use it anyway. (Of course, sometimes I prefer to just say Maxtor's suck > >and dream of the day I can afford an all SCSI disk system) > > It's not just high density. The newest maxtors DO suck! So do the latest > Seagates. For the ones of you that didn't know it, Glen Goodwin operates a > computer repair shop and has had LOTS of experience with this. I talked to > him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. I > bought one and have had NO trouble with it (knock on wood!). All of the > Seagates and Maxtors that I've tried in the last few years have failed > within six months. I thought Hitachi had all the IBM drive ops these days? -dhbarr. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 4 16:29:04 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:29:04 -0500 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <42793834.3000108@oldskool.org> References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <42793834.3000108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200505041629.04590.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 04 May 2005 16:01, Jim Leonard wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I have a computer that was damaged by EMP from a direct hit to the > > house I was in at the time. It was not connected to power or > > terminal. > > Your house was hit by a nuclear device? (Kidding, obviously; what > caused the EMP? Erm, lightning perhaps... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:34:20 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:34:20 -0500 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <42793834.3000108@oldskool.org> References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <42793834.3000108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 5/4/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I have a computer that was damaged by EMP from a direct hit to the > > house I was in at the time. It was not connected to power or terminal. > > Your house was hit by a nuclear device? (Kidding, obviously; what caused the EMP? This was in reference to lightning, I believe. -dhbarr. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 4 16:44:01 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 14:44:01 -0700 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200505041444.01637.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 04 May 2005 12:43, Joe R. wrote: --snip-- > It's not just high density. The newest maxtors DO suck! So do the latest > Seagates. For the ones of you that didn't know it, Glen Goodwin operates a > computer repair shop and has had LOTS of experience with this. I talked to > him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. I > bought one and have had NO trouble with it (knock on wood!). All of the > Seagates and Maxtors that I've tried in the last few years have failed > within six months. One of my large manufacturing clients here in Silicon Valley uses 100,000s of drives from various manufacturers. I've looked at their "return" numbers - and not surprisingly, ALL manufacturers have bad lots - even on server class drives. One trend I have noticed - whenever there is a significant "upgrade" - 7200RPM to 10K RPM or 10K RPM to 15K RPM - or in density - the return rate shoots up. Since most folks don't have access to this specific kind of data (it's highly confidential) - there are a few rules that I follow that have generally kept me out of trouble with drives: 1) Don't buy the "latest, supposedly greatest" drives. 2) When buying drive lots - go for the "former" best seller. For example when 72GB drives became the new "standard" in IBM/HP/Sun server systems - there was tons of 36GB drives that showed up almost immediately on the surplus market. Buy them and you'll likely be safe. 3) Buy server class drives as opposed to consumer class drives (They have better bearings, castings, etc.) You can't tell from how a drive looks on the outside - look at the specs and the MTBF numbers before you buy. 4) Most SCA and FC drives are very reliable because they are almost always server class drives. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 4 16:43:58 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:43:58 -0500 Subject: PET Haul Today Message-ID: <00fb01c550f2$621e0750$64406b43@66067007> I finally picked up the load of Pet items given to me last week and here some of what was in the load. Commodore PET 64 model 4064, 2-PET model 4032-12, 2-CBM 2001 Series Professional Computer, CBM 2001 Series model 2001-32B, PET 2001 Series Personal Computer model PET 2001-8, and PET model 4016-12 for a total of 8 Pet's. Also 6-C2N Cassette units, PET model 4010 Voice Response unit, 4-Tandy 1500 HD laptops, Tandy 3800 Notebook, GRID model 1660 notebook, CBM 2040 Dual Disk Drive, CBM 4040 Dual Disk Drive unit, CBM 2022 Tractor Printer, and two large boxes full of parts (motherboards (PET), keyboards, cables, and other items). I had not seen the PET 64 before and it still works. From drb at msu.edu Wed May 4 16:49:42 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:49:42 -0400 Subject: VK100 (gigi) Message-ID: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Curiosity question: I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market for a while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? De From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed May 4 16:48:57 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 22:48:57 +0100 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cb2f7654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message JP Hindin wrote: > I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to > eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that Never had a problem with Maxtors, aside from a 6-year-old 90845D4 (8.45GB) DiamondMax that failed earlier this year. Anyone know if Seagate's offerings are any good? Their Momentus laptop drives are interesting, and I've got a 4.5GB U4 and a 6GB Medalist here that work fine - 1997 and 1998 manufacture dates. I seem to recall a hideously bad batch of 2GB drives a few years back, 1995/1996 fab dates IIRC. I've also got an 850MB Maxtor (7850AV), a 420MB Conner (CP420?), a 120MB Fujitsu and an 80MB IBM here that just won't die... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... BS (bee ess): n. An uninformed statement. From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed May 4 16:54:19 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:54:19 +0200 (MEST) Subject: FREE IN NL: Tektronix TekXpress 19" color monitor Message-ID: Subject says it all.. anyone interested in it? It seems to work fine.. I just don't need it... Pse contact me off-list if interested. --fred From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 17:01:15 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: <00fb01c550f2$621e0750$64406b43@66067007> from Keys at "May 4, 5 04:43:58 pm" Message-ID: <200505042201.PAA14028@floodgap.com> > I had not seen the PET 64 before and it still works. You are so stinking lucky. If you ever get tired of playing with it, give me a holler. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In defeat, unbeatable; in victory, unbearable. -- Churchill, on Montgomery - From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 4 17:04:42 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 18:04:42 -0400 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... References: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> <42964.207.145.53.202.1115234908.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4279393F.1080405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <008d01c550f5$48581970$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Modern floppy disk question... > I stand corrected :-) To which I can only conjecture: Today there is less of > a demand for 3.5" media, so maybe the lack of competition/demand results in an > inferior product due to cost cutting? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Could it just be that few if any places manufacture 3.5" floppies anymore and all the stock being sold today was made back in the 90's? I could see a company buying a large lot at a good deal when floppies were somewhat still used and just selling small quantities of that stash to this day. For a company making commodity media to make a profit they would need to have some decent volume in production at any one time, so most if not all of those companies have probably retooled for some other semi profitable line of products after making a last run or 2 of floppies. If my theory is correct then a large stack of media is sitting in a warehouse going from a very hot climate in summer to a very cold one in winter over a period of years, maybe weakening the glue holding the magnetic material on the disk or slightly warping the housing just enough to cause more then the usual problems to the end user. Either that or they had to change the process of making the media because of new EPA regulations on adhesives or something. Most of the cheap floppies I have purchased in the last few years were from duplicators dumping their old stock since they don't need it anymore and those disks work great in my 8/16bit systems. The cheap low grade generic floppies I purchased bulk back in the 90's have had some reliability issues being written to once and then stored in disk boxes. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed May 4 17:12:47 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 23:12:47 +0100 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43e1f9654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > I talked to > him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. 1) IBM don't make hard drives anymore. Hitachi bought IBM's storage division after the 75GXP fiasco. 2) Fujitsu give the impression of not caring about customer satisfaction. I've dealt with them in the past (not their HDD division though). They really don't seem to care once they've got your money. Case in point: they made a batch of drives that had a near-99% failure rate over 12 months, due to Cirrus Logic changing the plastic they used for the chip packaging. Turned out the new stuff plated out silver over time - heat and electrical current accelerated it. Eventually the silver would build up on the bond wires and... Poof. Dead chip. Fujitsu's response? They voided the warranties on the affected drives. If you don't believe me, search for "Fujitsu" on www.theregister.co.uk. IIRC a lot of other IT news sources picked up on the story, and the resulting class-action suit. I swear by Maxtors, but I always buy drives from the middle of the model range. I got a 40GB 5T040H4 that failed in two years, but Maxtor RMA'd it without a fuss.. with a 6L080J4 - the next model series up, faster seek time, twice the capacity and IIRC they left it with the 3-year standard warranty, starting from the manufacture date on the replacement drive. It's probably worth mentioning that the '040 never failed completely. It just started having trouble spinning up on cold mornings. Holding the Reset button down for a few seconds got it spinning. Shame Ghost clobbered the superblock when I tried to copy from the '040 to the new '080. Lost a lot of data to that, then found a lovely technote on Symantec's website that mentioned the bug... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Mary had a little lamb. The doctor was surprised. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 4 17:17:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 18:17:18 -0400 Subject: VK100 (gigi) In-Reply-To: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 5/4/05, Dennis Boone wrote: > Curiosity question: > > I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market for a > while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? I've seen them at Dayton, and I've seen them on eBay, so they are around, but I don't see them come up as often as once a month, but perhaps a few a year. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 4 17:34:56 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:34:56 +0100 Subject: VK100 (gigi) In-Reply-To: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200505042235.j44MZ60s002886@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone > Sent: 04 May 2005 22:50 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: VK100 (gigi) > > Curiosity question: > > I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market > for a while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? I posted a message here a few weeks ago WRT someone wanting to pass one on to a collector...should be in the archives if I can't dig out the original message. They were in CT from what I remember...... cheers A From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 4 17:39:41 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:39:41 +0100 Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: <00fb01c550f2$621e0750$64406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200505042239.j44MdptQ002933@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Commodore PET 64 model 4064, 2-PET model 4032-12, 2-CBM 2001 Is this the Educator 64, aka a C64 in a PET case? I've never seen one of those apart from press photos from when they were released. > Series Professional Computer, CBM 2001 Series model 2001-32B, > PET 2001 Series Personal Computer model PET 2001-8, and PET > model 4016-12 for a total of 8 Nice haul of 2001 series machines too.....remember that if you've got chiclet keyboard machines and some of the keys don't work too well rub a 6B pencil on the contacts on the bottom of the keys and all should be well.... A From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 4 17:44:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:44:58 -0500 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... References: <8cb2f7654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <003601c550fa$e9ed0d40$883cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Philip Pemberton" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:48 PM > In message > JP Hindin wrote: > >> I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to >> eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that > > Never had a problem with Maxtors, aside from a 6-year-old 90845D4 (8.45GB) > DiamondMax that failed earlier this year. > Anyone know if Seagate's offerings are any good? Their Momentus laptop > drives > are interesting, and I've got a 4.5GB U4 and a 6GB Medalist here that work > fine - 1997 and 1998 manufacture dates. I seem to recall a hideously bad > batch of 2GB drives a few years back, 1995/1996 fab dates IIRC. > > I've also got an 850MB Maxtor (7850AV), a 420MB Conner (CP420?), a 120MB > Fujitsu and an 80MB IBM here that just won't die... > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, > 6GB, > philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, > 2-slice, > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI > ... BS (bee ess): n. An uninformed statement. I tend to buy Maxtors, I've had failures with them (5-10% failure within waranty). I've never had any problems replacing the drive in waranty. The Seagates & WD's I've bough have usually outlasted the waranty but the waranties were always shorter than Maxtors. In general I am happy with Maxtors so I stick with them, I don't go through that many. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 17:46:25 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: <200505042239.j44MdptQ002933@dewey.classiccmp.org> from Adrian Graham at "May 4, 5 11:39:41 pm" Message-ID: <200505042246.PAA14798@floodgap.com> > > Commodore PET 64 model 4064, 2-PET model 4032-12, 2-CBM 2001 > > Is this the Educator 64, aka a C64 in a PET case? I've never seen one of > those apart from press photos from when they were released. No. There are two collections classed as "PET 64s" -- the true PET or Educator 64, which is just a regular 64 in a PET case with a monochrome monitor; and the 4064, which also appears in PET cases, with a modified Kernal that turns the background to black, text colour to white and all sprite colours to black during interrupts. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "From Russia With Love" ---------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 4 17:17:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:17:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04598E@sbs.jdfogg.com> from "James Fogg" at May 4, 5 06:14:41 am Message-ID: > > The connectors on the ESDI drive appear to be the same as MFM > > so I am assuming that I can use MFM cables. > > I always did, but cannot assure you it would be correct. I am pretty sure you must use an untwisted 34-pin cable. Neither the IBM floppy drive twist nor the ST506 hard drive twist will work with ESDI drives. Other than that, they're just straight-through ribbon cables. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 4 17:26:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:26:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 4, 5 01:42:18 pm Message-ID: > > > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to Yes, they're too damn cheap.... I can rememebr paying \pounds 3.00 for a 5.25" floppy disk. One disk, not a box of 10. My old model 1 stored 88K on such a disk. And those disks are still readable 20+ years later. I now get 10 1.44M disks for not much more, and I'm lucky if they're readable a week later. Hmm.. Some progress :-( Floppy drives are the same. My first drive cost over \pounds 200. It was properly aligned and still works (as do plenty of older 8" drives here, of course). Modern drives seem to cost about \pounds 20, and a very poorly made. I've stuck an aligment disk in some of them to find the alignment is marginal (and that's being kind) on brand new drives. You guessed it. I'd like to be able to pay \pounds 200 or more for a modern drive, provided it came properly aligned and I could get real manuals for it (I have service manuals -- real service manuals -- for some of the older drives). > (I'm trying to remain cheerful here whilst attempting to find a floppy > that actually works 100%...) A few years back I was given 2 carrier bags full of bulk-erased RX50 disks -- they'd come from DEC software distribution kits, etc. I've yet to have one of those fail to format and work reliably -- even as double sided 80 cylinder (the RX50 was, of course, a single-sided drive). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 4 17:30:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:30:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at May 4, 5 07:44:13 am Message-ID: > > > I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These > displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running > between the two contacts. The only markings I see are "Japan" and > "3015-5" on the back and "C-27-09" on the side. My suspicion is that > they are incandescent but I haven't found any information on them yet > using Google. Does anyone know what these things are called? The name 'minitron' seems to be floating in my brain for some reason... They could well be incandescent. I've seen such devices in a 16 pin DIL package, in a smaller package with 9 socket contacts on the back arranged like a miniature DE9 connector (those are used in the ICL Temiprinters for the column display, for example), and in a wire-ended valve-shaped envelope. -tony From drb at msu.edu Wed May 4 17:58:35 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:58:35 -0400 Subject: search broken? Message-ID: <200505042258.j44MwZie008859@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Ok, it's meta-OT, but: if I search for "adrian" or "witchy" in the cctalk archives, I get no hits. Nor do I get hits for anything else I try. Unless it's personal, I'd say htdig has done on the classiccmp server what it likes to do on mine: malfunction occasionally. FWIW. De From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 17:59:03 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <62722.207.145.53.202.1115247543.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Joe wrote: > Glen Goodwin operates a > computer repair shop and has had LOTS of experience with this. I talked to > him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. Ain't no such thing. What used to be IBM's disk drive business is now Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (www.hgst.com), and they certainly do not sell drives made by Fujitsu, since they make their own. Like every brand, IBM drives had their own share of problems at times. As one of my friends observes, you should avoid drive manufacturers with an "m" in the in the name, and contrary to appearances "Seagate" does contain an "m". :-) The reality is that good or bad experiences with one generation of drives from one manufacturer don't tell you much about what to expect from the earlier or later generations from the same manufacturer. Most of the current disk drive manufacturers make reasonably good products most of the time, but there are occasional exceptions. The only way to really trust IDE drives is to run them with mirroring or RAID 5. Otherwise, you'd best to frequent backups. Which is a good idea even with mirroring or RAID. Also note that IDE drives really do NOT have the same quality level as SCSI/FC/SAS etc. This is not due to the interface, but due to actual mechanical differences in how the drives are engineered and manufactured. There is nothing inherent in the host interface that dictates this; rather it is due to the market that the drives target. SCSI etc. are targetted at high-reliability applications where cost is not the overriding concern, while IDE drives are targetted at the cost-is-everything consumer market. (There exist some "upscale" IDE drives, which are better than the cheapest ones, but they're still not in the same league as SCSI etc.) For an interesting paper that explains some of the technical details on how the "enterprise" drives differ from "consumer" drives, see the paper "More than an interface - SCSI vs. ATA" by Seagate Research: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~riedel/papers/SCSIvsATA.abstract.html Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 18:01:55 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4279393F.1080405@oldskool.org> References: <4278FDFE.4010101@oldskool.org> <42964.207.145.53.202.1115234908.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4279393F.1080405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <62867.207.145.53.202.1115247715.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim wrote: > To which I can only conjecture: Today there is less of > a demand for 3.5" media, so maybe the lack of competition/demand results > in an inferior product due to cost cutting? I think they went bad because of *intense* competition. Now that the competition may be easing up, the result is that the price goes up, but the quality doesn't. The manufacturers have learned that they can sell crap, so they have no incentive to improve the product. Eric From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 4 17:54:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:54:02 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You may be right but I THOUGHT it was Fujitsu. Whatever it was, it's working fine. It's already outlasted several Maxtors and Seagates. I just checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so it doesn't identify the actual manufacturer. Joe At 04:21 PM 5/4/05 -0500, you wrote: > >I thought Hitachi had all the IBM drive ops these days? > >-dhbarr. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 4 18:01:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:01:16 -0400 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <8cb2f7654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050504190116.01862510@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:48 PM 5/4/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message > JP Hindin wrote: > >> I also apply this logic to why the latest 300GB Maxtor disk lasts six to >> eight months before dying, as opposed to any number of <100MB disks that > >Never had a problem with Maxtors, aside from a 6-year-old 90845D4 (8.45GB) >DiamondMax that failed earlier this year. >Anyone know if Seagate's offerings are any good? The ones built in the last couple of years are trash IMO. Obviously I haven't used EVERY model that they make so that's only an opinion but I would be leary of them. My data and time are a lot more valuable than the drive so why take a chance? Their Momentus laptop drives >are interesting, and I've got a 4.5GB U4 and a 6GB Medalist here that work >fine - 1997 and 1998 manufacture dates. I seem to recall a hideously bad >batch of 2GB drives a few years back, 1995/1996 fab dates IIRC. > >I've also got an 850MB Maxtor (7850AV), a 420MB Conner (CP420?), a 120MB >Fujitsu and an 80MB IBM here that just won't die... I have a LOT of old drives that just keep running and running and running. And I used to really like the Maxtors but the stuff made in the last few years just seems to be crap. Like someone else mentioned, I started having lots of problems when they went to the 7200 RPM and faster drives. They all ran hot and were noisy and failed early. However this IBM(?) drive is working fine and is quiet and cool. Joe > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... BS (bee ess): n. An uninformed statement. > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 18:21:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <64862.207.145.53.202.1115248890.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Joe wrote: > I just checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so > it doesn't identify the actual manufacturer. Sure it does. The actual manufacturer was IBM. They made their own drives until they spun off that division as a partnership with Hitachi. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 4 18:27:25 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:27:25 +0100 Subject: search broken? In-Reply-To: <200505042258.j44MwZie008859@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200505042327.j44NRK1Z004467@dewey.classiccmp.org> Bizarre, maybe I didn't post it...still, here's the original text: ------------- Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail from: Don Coutu (barhornwine at snet.net) on February 15th, 2005 at 01:06AM (GMT). I have a GIGI in its' case, cables, manuals and a Barco BD233. I don't know if your actively looking to get a spare, however, your in the UK and I'm in the US in the State of Connecticut. ------------- Reply to Don if interested..... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone > Sent: 04 May 2005 23:59 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: search broken? > > Ok, it's meta-OT, but: if I search for "adrian" or "witchy" > in the cctalk archives, I get no hits. Nor do I get hits for > anything else I try. Unless it's personal, I'd say htdig has > done on the classiccmp server what it likes to do on mine: > malfunction occasionally. > > FWIW. > > De > From spare40tire at snet.net Wed May 4 18:36:15 2005 From: spare40tire at snet.net (Spare) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:36:15 -0400 Subject: VK100 (gigi) References: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <005701c55102$10db2930$13fafea9@New1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 5:49 PM Subject: VK100 (gigi) > Curiosity question: > > I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market for a > while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? > > De I have: a GIGI in its' case with multi connector video cable. a Barco CD233 monitor. and manuals: VK100 Terminal Installation GIGI Basic Data Plotting Package Slide Projection System GIGI Decrite Some of these require applications running on either RSTS/E, VAX/VMS or TOPS20. I do not plan to keep it or use it and 'I've been idly watching for' someone to express an interest or desire or to list it in stuff-I-want. Contact me directly to discuss. Spare . One problem is that I'm in the US in Connecticut, while most of classiccmp participants are in the UK. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 18:39:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:39:13 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <0IFZ003ZWOD2A9G2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:01:40 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> I have a computer that was damaged by EMP from a direct hit to the >> house I was in at the time. It was not connected to power or terminal. > >Your house was hit by a nuclear device? (Kidding, obviously; what caused the EMP? Lightining, direct hit to a TV antenna. Antenna and #6 CU ground lead were reduced to little BBs or otherwise vaporized. The affected systems were one floor down. Not less than two portable (battery only) radios had the RF stages fried. The term EMP is ElectroMagnetic Pulse refers to any large magnetic pulse. It is not exclusive to a nuke going off though that can generate a whale of a big one. Though dumping a sufficiently large (say 100KW/S) stored charge into a coil can really mess up local equipment. Years of working around commercial towers I've seen what those big sparks from the sky can do. Its impressive. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 18:46:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:46:36 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays Message-ID: <0IFZ00EWIOPCPFW0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Seven Segment Displays > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 23:30:20 +0100 (BST) > >The name 'minitron' seems to be floating in my brain for some reason... > >They could well be incandescent. I've seen such devices in a 16 pin DIL >package, in a smaller package with 9 socket contacts on the back arranged >like a miniature DE9 connector (those are used in the ICL Temiprinters >for the column display, for example), and in a wire-ended valve-shaped >envelope. I have a bunch of them too. Four are in a counter I made back in 73, the rest are spares for it. Actually they are fairly nice and at about 10MA brighter than leds of the time (I must ahve a dozen MAN-x series LED 7 segments as well). FYI: those things are considered rare as hens teeth as most systems that use them have burnt them out. One series of ARC (used in cessna aircraft) radios had them as they were bright enough for day use and I hear they cost about 100$+ per digit to replace. Allison From jpl15 at panix.com Wed May 4 18:55:55 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VK100 (gigi) In-Reply-To: <005701c55102$10db2930$13fafea9@New1200> References: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <005701c55102$10db2930$13fafea9@New1200> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Spare wrote: > > One problem is that I'm in the US in Connecticut, while most of classiccmp > participants are in the UK. > > Umm, no, actually, the majority of Classiccmpers are firmly ensconced upon your Very Own Landmass, safely surrounded by the Sovreign Borders of the United States. Don't let a buncha loudmouth laybouts over in Merry Olde, with nothin' better to do on a rainly English evening than flood the List, skew your statistics. Yeah. Cheers John PS: ;} From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 4 19:05:53 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:05:53 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 09:51:45 EDT." <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >I very much doubt it. The story you quoted doesn't seem to have any >connection with physics as I know it. I'm not disagreeing, but I am confused. If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? -brad From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 4 19:16:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <200505050016.RAA13988@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brad Parker" > > >Paul Koning wrote: >> >>I very much doubt it. The story you quoted doesn't seem to have any >>connection with physics as I know it. > >I'm not disagreeing, but I am confused. > >If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > >-brad > Hi You sink? Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 19:18:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 09:51:45 EDT." <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <36953.207.145.53.202.1115252297.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brad wrote: > If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? Like argon, for instance? Argon is heavier than "air", and for that matter heavier than O2, N2, and almost as heavy as CO2. The earth's atmosphere contains about 1% Argon. Since the atmosphere is about 80km tall, obviously there must not be anything but argon down here in the bottom 800m for us to breathe. Just like the claim that a room containing a few percent of halon will have no O2 near the floor. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 19:20:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505050016.RAA13988@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505050016.RAA13988@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <37103.207.145.53.202.1115252411.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brad wrote: > If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? Dwight wrote: > You sink? Nah, it just makes you talk like Goofy. As oppposed to helium, which makes you talk like Micky. From Tim at rikers.org Wed May 4 19:19:13 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:19:13 -0500 Subject: a few HP goodies Message-ID: <42796681.4090902@Rikers.org> I found the professor that used to use this old HP-2116A. He had a few things around from back then. I picked up a couple pocket manuals: * hp-2116a computer "micromanual" central processor * hp 21mx microprogramming pocket guide and 4 paper tapes: * hand labeled "block loader" with instructions * 24307-16001 rev 1419 DOS III B system generator program (large) * 24127-60001 rev a 16k sio teleprinter driver - ipl compati * hand labeled - non eau-lib 24146a (large) I've not gotten around to working on the tape reader, so just posting in case there's something someone has been searching for. Oh, and Jay isn't on irc at the moment or I'd ask him. ;-) #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net still having fun. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cmurray at eagle.ca Wed May 4 20:59:17 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:59:17 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? Message-ID: <200505050059.j450xHC2004452@inferno.eagle.ca> It seems I may have jumped the gun here and complimented the site as a 'find' when in fact it may not be that??? Is information blinding us when sober thought produces knowledge and then 'truth' emerges. Message: 30 Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <200505041151.EAA09430 at floodgap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>>>> > What I found is that the site lifted photos from my site without asking >>>>>>> > or telling me. But, at least they give links to the source pages! > >> > >>>> >>>> I don't know for certain, but I believe the photos are uploaded by the >>>> users who register and create their database. So I don't believe it's the >>>> site owners ripping your stuff without credit. Actually, I think it is, at least for some of them (the contributor is "WebMaster"). The Commodore section has a couple of photos ripped off from Secret Weapons of Commodore, and they don't even link back. One example is the Commodore 232 entry, which even includes the same backplate photo Dan Benson permitted me to use, in the same dimensions I cropped it to, with the same serial number, as well as the rear ports image. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm a dyslexic amateur orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- ------------------------------ From tomj at wps.com Wed May 4 20:13:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 18:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <36953.207.145.53.202.1115252297.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 09:51:45 EDT." <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> <36953.207.145.53.202.1115252297.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050504181223.Q1126@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Since the atmosphere is > about 80km tall, obviously there must not be anything but argon down > here in the bottom 800m for us to breathe. Well once we stop STIRRING IT ALL UP it'll settle out into nice pretty, orderly layers, dammit. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 20:46:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:46:03 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0IFZ00GK1U8E1FC2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > From: Brad Parker > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:05:53 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Paul Koning wrote: >> >>I very much doubt it. The story you quoted doesn't seem to have any >>connection with physics as I know it. > >I'm not disagreeing, but I am confused. > >If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? Thud! sound of body hitting floor. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 4 20:48:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:48:38 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0IFZ007ZJUCPY393@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:13:26 -0700 (PDT) > To: >Well once we stop STIRRING IT ALL UP it'll settle out into nice >pretty, orderly layers, dammit. Hey, that cyclonic storm was NOT MY idea! Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 4 20:54:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:54:46 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42797CE6.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: >Paul Koning wrote: > > >>I very much doubt it. The story you quoted doesn't seem to have any >>connection with physics as I know it. >> >> > >I'm not disagreeing, but I am confused. > >If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > >-brad > > You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your lungs. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 4 20:57:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:57:06 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050504181223.Q1126@localhost> References: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 09:51:45 EDT." <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> <36953.207.145.53.202.1115252297.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050504181223.Q1126@localhost> Message-ID: <42797D71.8030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Since the atmosphere is >> about 80km tall, obviously there must not be anything but argon down >> here in the bottom 800m for us to breathe. > > > Well once we stop STIRRING IT ALL UP it'll settle out into nice > pretty, orderly layers, dammit. So where does the FART layer go? From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed May 4 21:16:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 22:16:07 -0400 Subject: CV Transformer - Capacitor on separate winding ? Message-ID: <20050505021606.BDJN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Thanks to all thow responded - and for the excellent descriptions of how it all works. After experiementing with a load, I decided that it looked good enough to try at full power, and did so with no problems - the transformer buzzes more loudly than a standard one, however I am told that this is normal for a C.V. unit. Playing with the Variac, I confirmed that the power supply truly does provide superior line regulation - from 90v to 120v, the output of the supply is pretty constant at about 9v, and barely changes. It is also much more stable with changes in the load than a standard supply. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 21:34:18 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <200505050059.j450xHC2004452@inferno.eagle.ca> from Cmurray at "May 4, 5 08:59:17 pm" Message-ID: <200505050234.TAA12498@floodgap.com> > It seems I may have jumped the gun here and complimented the site as a > 'find' when in fact it may not be that??? I think it's just someone ripping off other people's sites. The information they furnish certainly isn't very compelling, and some of it seems to be inaccurate. And, of course, the images aren't even theirs, at least in these cases (I see newspaper scans and other things for other computers, tho'). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to type. - S. Gardner From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 21:39:48 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <42797CE6.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "May 4, 5 07:54:46 pm" Message-ID: <200505050239.TAA13948@floodgap.com> > > I'm not disagreeing, but I am confused. > > If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your lungs. Then we'd die from all that carbon dioxide and from accumulation of (as Eric mentioned) heavy minor components like argon. The killer gases kill not because of their weight, but their chemical effect on the body (mustard gases are corrosive, carbon monoxide binds tightly to haemoglobin, etc.). If you're cycling air normally, heavier air components don't stay. You have a certain "dead" capacity that is not routinely exchanged with breaths but even this is not a fixed, unchanging airspace with a constant composition. Inhaling a 100% argon atmosphere kills you because there's no oxygen in it, not because the argon itself does something. But if you got out into room air, you'd exchange out the argon (assuming you were still breathing), since the argon is inert and doesn't react with your tissues. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From KParker at workcover.com Wed May 4 21:41:50 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:11:50 +0930 Subject: XT 5160 Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to find a definitive answer on the net. TIA!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 21:48:27 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20050504194742.I91200@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 May 2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > find a definitive answer on the net. > TIA!!! PC-DOS 2.00 initially, then 2.10 From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 4 21:49:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 21:49:14 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <002201c5511d$0a3e3e80$a93cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Parker, Kevin" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 9:41 PM > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > find a definitive answer on the net. > > TIA!!! > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Consultant > WorkCover Corporation I believe it started with PC-DOS 2 and later version 2.10. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 4 21:57:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 19:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate .local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Kevin wrote: > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > find a definitive answer on the net. None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several other operating systems. From KParker at workcover.com Wed May 4 22:01:28 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:31:28 +0930 Subject: XT 5160 Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Do you know what the popular choice was? ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: XT 5160 Kevin wrote: > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem > to find a definitive answer on the net. None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several other operating systems. ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 4 22:04:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:04:39 -0600 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Parker, Kevin wrote: >Do you know what the popular choice was? > > > My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more popular with the clones. Now what programing languges did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran come to mind. From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 4 22:10:00 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:10:00 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <0IFZ00EWIOPCPFW0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFZ00EWIOPCPFW0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > I have a bunch of them too. Four are in a counter I made back in 73, > the rest are spares for it. Actually they are fairly nice and at about > 10MA brighter than leds of the time (I must ahve a dozen MAN-x series > LED 7 segments as well). > > FYI: those things are considered rare as hens teeth as most systems > that use them have burnt them out. One series of ARC (used in cessna > aircraft) radios had them as they were bright enough for day use > and I hear they cost about 100$+ per digit to replace. I saw some at a hamfest. I lost my interest as I figured out that they operated the same way as most VCR displays. vax, 9000 > > Allison > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 4 22:12:39 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:12:39 -0400 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? Message-ID: very heavy in cleveland, OH, USA From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 4 22:20:11 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 23:20:11 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <200505050059.j450xHC2004452@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505050059.j450xHC2004452@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <427990EB.70204@atarimuseum.com> I didn't see the original msg, whats the URL for this Vintage Computer site... I find my images and content from atarimuseum.com constantly commandeered by other sites and not so much as a simple text saying "stolen without permission" ;-) Curt Cmurray wrote: >It seems I may have jumped the gun here and complimented the site as a >'find' when in fact it may not be that??? >Is information blinding us when sober thought produces knowledge and then >'truth' emerges. > > > >Message: 30 >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 04:51:12 -0700 (PDT) >From: Cameron Kaiser >Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Web Site -www.1000bit.net >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <200505041151.EAA09430 at floodgap.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > >>>>>>>>>What I found is that the site lifted photos from my site without >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > >asking > > > >>>>>>>>>or telling me. But, at least they give links to the source pages! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>I don't know for certain, but I believe the photos are uploaded by the >>>>>users who register and create their database. So I don't believe it's >>>>> >>>>> > >the > > > >>>>>site owners ripping your stuff without credit. >>>>> >>>>> > > > >Actually, I think it is, at least for some of them (the contributor is >"WebMaster"). The Commodore section has a couple of photos ripped off from >Secret Weapons of Commodore, and they don't even link back. One example is >the Commodore 232 entry, which even includes the same backplate photo Dan >Benson permitted me to use, in the same dimensions I cropped it to, with >the same serial number, as well as the rear ports image. > >-- ---------------------------------- personal: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * >So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm a dyslexic amateur >orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- >------------------------------ > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005 From marvin at rain.org Wed May 4 22:52:42 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:52:42 -0700 Subject: Minitrons, was Re: Seven Segment Displays Message-ID: <4279988A.61B2DB78@rain.org> Many thanks to everyone who responded to my question! The site at http://www.sphere.bc.ca/ has a lot of older type displays and the Minitron Seven Segment Displays were among them *including* a datasheet! The pricing I've seen ranged from about $7.00 to $44.00 each used and tested but so far, I haven't seen any prices for NOS parts. I do like the $100.00 per digit though :). > >The name 'minitron' seems to be floating in my brain for some reason... > > > >They could well be incandescent. I've seen such devices in a 16 pin DIL > >package, in a smaller package with 9 socket contacts on the back arranged > >like a miniature DE9 connector (those are used in the ICL Temiprinters > >for the column display, for example), and in a wire-ended valve-shaped > >envelope. > > I have a bunch of them too. Four are in a counter I made back in 73, > the rest are spares for it. Actually they are fairly nice and at about > 10MA brighter than leds of the time (I must ahve a dozen MAN-x series > LED 7 segments as well). > > FYI: those things are considered rare as hens teeth as most systems > that use them have burnt them out. One series of ARC (used in cessna > aircraft) radios had them as they were bright enough for day use > and I hear they cost about 100$+ per digit to replace. > > Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 4 22:57:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050504204106.R91200@shell.lmi.net> > Kevin wrote: > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > > find a definitive answer on the net. On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several > other operating systems. Eric is right, of course, but IBM (and particularly some third party IBM dealers, such as Computerland) also liked to bundle a few products together. Since low level format of hard drives was only available in the "Advanced Diagnostics", if you bought a machine and OS at the same time, IBM would gladly "install" it. PC-DOS 1.00 was released simultaneously with the 5150. (8/11/1981) PC-DOS 1.10 added support for double sided drives. PC-DOS 2.00 was released simultaneously with the availability of the XT, and added support for 9 sectors per track (v 8), subdirectories, and hard drives. PC-DOS 2.10 was released simultaneously with the PCJr and "portable PC", and slowed down disk access for the lousy Qume 142 drives PC-DOS 3.00 was released simultaneously with the AT, and added support for 1.2M floppies. PC-DOS 3.10 added the network redirector and a few other items. PC-DOS 3.20 added support for 720K 3.5" drives. PC-DOS 3.30 was released simultaneously with the PS/2s, and added support for 1.4M drives. PC-DOS 4.00 added support for hard drives > 32M PC-DOS 5.00 add some bundled software PC-DOS 6.10 added bundled Compression. PC-DOS 7.00 is too new to worry about. NOTE: 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31 were only available as MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 5 01:28:48 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:28:48 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003201c5513b$b3cf6140$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Brad Parker wrote: > If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? You sink :-) Seriously, I don't see what "bad" things might happen. You should be able to exhale in the usual way. I do not think that exhaling depends on the gas inside your lungs being heavier than air - just on you muscles' ability to push the gas out. I've not tried this (for significant volumes of gas) so don't take my word for it :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 01:54:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: <200505042246.PAA14798@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Commodore PET 64 model 4064, 2-PET model 4032-12, 2-CBM 2001 > > > > Is this the Educator 64, aka a C64 in a PET case? I've never seen one of > > those apart from press photos from when they were released. > > No. There are two collections classed as "PET 64s" -- the true PET or > Educator 64, which is just a regular 64 in a PET case with a monochrome > monitor; and the 4064, which also appears in PET cases, with a modified > Kernal that turns the background to black, text colour to white and all > sprite colours to black during interrupts. So you're saying the 4064 is more interesting than the PET/Educator 64? I have one, FWIW. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 5 02:02:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 02:02:33 -0500 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> Joe R. wrote: > You may be right but I THOUGHT it was Fujitsu. Whatever it was, it's > working fine. It's already outlasted several Maxtors and Seagates. I just > checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so it doesn't > identify the actual manufacturer. IBM drives are most definitely Hitachi. And that being said, IBM/Hitachi drives are the only drives I've never had fail on me. I run them in mirrors: 2 75GXP 30GB, 2 120GB, 2 180GB... not a single failure and the 75GXPs are going on 5 years now. And they're fast!! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 02:01:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4279393F.1080405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > I stand corrected :-) To which I can only conjecture: Today there is less of > a demand for 3.5" media, so maybe the lack of competition/demand results in an > inferior product due to cost cutting? i.e. Crapitalism :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 02:02:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VK100 (gigi) In-Reply-To: <005701c55102$10db2930$13fafea9@New1200> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Spare wrote: > One problem is that I'm in the US in Connecticut, while most of classiccmp > participants are in the UK. Actually, it's quite the opposite. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 5 02:28:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:28:40 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> woodelf declared on Wednesday 04 May 2005 10:04 pm: > Parker, Kevin wrote: > >Do you know what the popular choice was? > > My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more > popular with the clones. Now what programing languges > did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran > come to mind. Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't require you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was probably more useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC had a cassette interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 02:29:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <427990EB.70204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I didn't see the original msg, whats the URL for this Vintage Computer > site... I find my images and content from atarimuseum.com constantly > commandeered by other sites and not so much as a simple text saying > "stolen without permission" ;-) Hey Curt! http://www.1000bit.net -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 02:29:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <42797D71.8030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, woodelf wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> Since the atmosphere is > >> about 80km tall, obviously there must not be anything but argon down > >> here in the bottom 800m for us to breathe. > > > > > > Well once we stop STIRRING IT ALL UP it'll settle out into nice > > pretty, orderly layers, dammit. > > So where does the FART layer go? New Jersey? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 02:34:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > Kevin wrote: > > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't > > > seem to find a definitive answer on the net. > > > > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several > > other operating systems. > > Do you know what the popular choice was? What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. P.S. :P -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu May 5 03:46:11 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:46:11 +0200 (MEST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050504204106.R91200@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Eric is right, of course, but IBM (and particularly some third party > IBM dealers, such as Computerland) also liked to bundle a few products > together. > Since low level format of hard drives was only available in the > "Advanced Diagnostics", if you bought a machine and OS at the same > time, IBM would gladly "install" it. In Europe, it was fairly impossible to get one without the OS; most ran DOS, I believe some people ran PC/IX as well. I know of at least four people who did, me being one. (not to worry, it wasn't my machine.. at that time, pricing of such machinery AND the software were liking drooling in front of a BMW store window to me ;-) > PC-DOS 1.00 was released simultaneously with the 5150. (8/11/1981) Great list! --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu May 5 03:48:04 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:48:04 +0200 (MEST) Subject: FREE IN NL: Tektronix TekXpress 19" color monitor In-Reply-To: <002801c55132$6e9acaa0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: Unit has been claimed, thanks ! --f From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 5 04:25:35 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 02:25:35 -0700 Subject: Seven Segment Displays References: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> Message-ID: <4279E734.658DE253@cs.ubc.ca> I have run across at least two variations of the 7-segment incandescent displays in 14/16 pin DIPs and they have different case size and pinouts. First ran across them when I bought four at Radio Shack circa 1972 when I was 12-or-so years old, to make a clock, but never heard the term 'minitron'. 'Minitron' *may* be a trade name for a particular manufacturer's version, rather than a 'type' name. Note that Numitrons are similar 7-segment incandescent displays from RCA, but in a small vacuum-tube style envelope. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 5 04:30:29 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 02:30:29 -0700 Subject: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) References: <0IFZ00EWIOPCPFW0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4279E85B.F1D81471@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > FYI: those things are considered rare as hens teeth as most systems > that use them have burnt them out. One series of ARC (used in cessna > aircraft) radios had them as they were bright enough for day use > and I hear they cost about 100$+ per digit to replace. > Allison Do you have any more specific model information regarding these aircraft radios (what is the ARC series?): Some time ago I noticed a small, somewhat-odd module of folded-up ~2 in. by ~6 in. printed circuit boards with a row of 10 7-segment incandescent displays in the trash [*]. I pulled it out, out of curiosity. It really was trashed: no case, no identification, mangled PCB interconnect wires, most of whatever it belonged in was gone. Turned out it contained a 4004 processor and other MCS-4 support chips. Some reverse engineering, application of appropriate supply voltages, assorted repairs (including constructing a substitute for the faulty MCS-4 4201 clock generator IC) and it was a functioning embedded 4004 system, albeit quite useless as anything but a curio/artifact. By appearance and function it is the digital control/display/front-end portion of a PLL-synthesised-tuning avionics radio, perhaps a NAV/COM unit (standard dual side-by-side tuners, right side tunes 108-118 MHz, left side 118-135 MHz (from the displays)). IC date codes are circa 1977. All the analog/RF stuff is missing. (I have since mounted it with a power supply to make it into a '4004 display'. One can turn the knobs and push the buttons to change the frequency display. The 4004 does all the processing between the knob inputs and 7-seg-display outputs, as well as feeding the divide-by-N factor to the missing PLL). But I have wondered just what the make/model of the full unit is. Another distinguishing characteristic is that it on both the far right and left sides there is a column of 3 square (~3/16") white pushbuttons for preset frequencies. Does any of this description match the avionics units you have in mind? [ * In the trash at the mentioned-in-earlier-messages radio museum. Barbarians. ] From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 5 04:46:03 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:46:03 +0100 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: <1115214138.3943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050504114744.Y1126@localhost> Message-ID: <4279EB5B.1020004@gjcp.net> John Hogerhuis wrote: > On 5/4/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > > >>I use USB floppy drives, and one refurb HP desktop that runs WinXP >>Pro. No idea what drive is in it, but it always works. Can't >>recall a media problem on it. >> >> > > > Allison made the point that fans sucking dirt into the drive probably > causes problems. I've found the same thing. > > Using an external floppy drive, USB or otherwise, is one way to take > the fan out of the equation. > > -- John. I have to say, I've not had any problems with external floppies on my IBM lappy at work - and one of the external drives is ex-field engineer "boot kit" and thus has been rattled about in the back of a Vectra (Vauxhall, not HP) with keyboards, toolboxes and ATM parts... Gordon. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 06:45:58 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 04:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "May 4, 5 11:54:46 pm" Message-ID: <200505051145.EAA15254@floodgap.com> > > > > Commodore PET 64 model 4064, 2-PET model 4032-12, 2-CBM 2001 > > > > > > Is this the Educator 64, aka a C64 in a PET case? I've never seen one of > > > those apart from press photos from when they were released. > > > > No. There are two collections classed as "PET 64s" -- the true PET or > > Educator 64, which is just a regular 64 in a PET case with a monochrome > > monitor; and the 4064, which also appears in PET cases, with a modified > > Kernal that turns the background to black, text colour to white and all > > sprite colours to black during interrupts. > > So you're saying the 4064 is more interesting than the PET/Educator 64? > I have one, FWIW. Well, they're both interesting. The PET 64 has a built-in amp for the speaker and a reset switch, and some people have reportedly converted it into a colour system, making a rather interesting all-in-one. Since the Kernal is standard, it's just a regular Commodore 64 in a big case. The 4064 is more interesting for its ROM changes, but it's rather more annoying to use than the PET 64 because of them (there's a POKE to make the Kernal stop doing that, but as soon as you reset it or hit RUN-STOP/RESTORE, it goes back to its old tricks -- for the curious, it's POKE 646,PEEK(646)OR128 ). Nevertheless, it's much more unique. And if you get bored with the 4064, let me know. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This signature is free of dihydrogen monoxide! Ban it now! www.dhmo.org ---- From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 5 07:56:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:56:26 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: <0IFZ003ZWOD2A9G2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17018.6138.480215.874574@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> The term EMP is ElectroMagnetic Pulse refers to any large Allison> magnetic pulse. It is not exclusive to a nuke going off Allison> though that can generate a whale of a big one. Though Allison> dumping a sufficiently large (say 100KW/S) stored charge Allison> into a coil can really mess up local equipment. That's not how PolyPhaser (a major player in the professional lightning/EMP protection business) uses the terminology. Lightning and (nuclear) EMP have rather different waveforms (EMP has faster risetime). So protectors designed to protect from lightning aren't necessarily helpful for EMP. (However, EMP protectors also do fine for lightning.) Calling a lightning strike "EMP" is certainly a confusing use of the term. paul From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 5 08:33:08 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:33:08 +0100 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> On 5/4/05, Dennis Boone wrote: > I think I handled a 600 in a Novell server once. Oooh! [Envy] ;?) > > It's an Int11 device, just like an ST-506 drive. The BIOS needs > > to be configured with the right number of heads, cylinders and > > sectors-per-track, tho' picking type 20 or so will usually give you > > enough to boot and read the true settings off the drive itself. They > > will probably need to be low-level formatted if moving them from > > one controller to another. DEBUG and then G=c800:5 is what I dimly > > recall for this, tho' in later years I used CheckIt or even SpinRite > > to do this. > > I'm inclined to disagree, though I'm hardly the expert. > > Specifically, I recall having trouble setting up several ESDI drives > in servers. The fix was to tell the machine BIOS the disk didn't > exist, then let the ESDI controller BIOS work out geometry. Oh really? Odd. I recall doing that for SCSI but not for ESDI - I'm pretty sure I needed to tell the BIOS there was /some/ drive there, and at least a 20MB to be reasonably sure of getting all of track 0 and the partition table and so on without splitting that track over several nonexistent cylinders. Mind you, whether my dim recollection of type 20 being true is anybody's guess, it's so long ago now. This entire bit could be false memory syndrome. :?) -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 5 08:24:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:24:06 -0400 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If that's what I think it is, a HP 9000 520, then it's a real find. They seem to be very rare. I have one but it doesn't work. Does it work? Is it the color version? (To self: I don't need any more projects, I don't need any more projects....) Joe At 11:12 PM 5/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >very heavy in cleveland, OH, USA > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 5 08:38:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:38:25 -0400 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050505093825.009436f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:28 AM 5/5/05 -0500, Pat wrote: >woodelf declared on Wednesday 04 May 2005 10:04 pm: >> Parker, Kevin wrote: >> >Do you know what the popular choice was? >> >> My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more >> popular with the clones. Now what programing languges >> did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran >> come to mind. > >Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't require >you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was probably more >useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC had a cassette >interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. FWIW Also left out Professional Fortran, IBM Cobal, RM Cobal, Basic Compiler without 8087, Basic Compiler with 8087, APL, Logo and several more. I've been collecting the stuff and I'm amazed how many different languages there were. I'm up to about four LARGE boxs of the stuff. BTW recently picked up an old AT and found an 8" disk drive controller in it. I can't remember who made it (Farmer Electonics?) but it's NOT a compaticard. I powered up the AT to look for any drivers but the CMOS has lost it's settings so I have to dig up a Setup disk and reset them before I can access the HD and look for drivers. Checked my stash and found that all the Setup disks that I have are all for PCs and XTs so I'e got to go dig deeper to find the right Setup disk. Joe From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 5 09:00:25 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:00:25 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427A26F9.7070305@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Sellam... Yup, just as expected, several photo's taken from my site, old ones too. Its not the case with this site, but have you ever seen the sites that take photo's from your own site, then the site that steals them put's their own watermark on them, that always raises an eyebrow for the contempt displayed. Well, dispite this 1000bit site plundering others to generate content to for itself, it is a nice looking, well setup site. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 4 May 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > >>I didn't see the original msg, whats the URL for this Vintage Computer >>site... I find my images and content from atarimuseum.com constantly >>commandeered by other sites and not so much as a simple text saying >>"stolen without permission" ;-) >> >> > >Hey Curt! > >http://www.1000bit.net > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005 From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 5 09:16:52 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:16:52 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050505095930.00b1d040@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Joe R. wrote: >> You may be right but I THOUGHT it was Fujitsu. Whatever it was, it's >>working fine. It's already outlasted several Maxtors and Seagates. I just >>checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so it doesn't >>identify the actual manufacturer. > >IBM drives are most definitely Hitachi. Yup... run 'em for years. > And that being said, IBM/Hitachi drives are the only drives I've never > had fail on me. Like so many others... depends on which drives... ;-) I've had great luck with the TravelStars and UltraStars... but the Death^WDeskStars I tend to avoid; Altho they're not as bad as some drives I've used, I've not had quite as good luck with them as Western Digital. > I run them in mirrors: 2 75GXP 30GB, 2 120GB, 2 180GB... not a single > failure and the 75GXPs are going on 5 years now. And they're fast!! I was amazed -- I have a 40G TravelStar in an external Firewire case, I'd intended it for just backup / "quasi-online" storage (stuff I wouldn't need fast or often) but it was less than 10% slower than the internal WD 30G drive I had - more than fast enough to use for "normal use" so I do! It was a very nice surprise... ;-) If I had the cash, I'd replace the 4200rpm Toshiba drive in my laptop with one of those slickety-neato 7200rpm Hitachi drives... but alas, I don't. [[ I do, however, think I can talk the wifey in into an IDE interface for my CoCo finally... I happen to have a NOS IDE 2.2G Castlewood removable drive that I think would be *schweetness* with that... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 5 09:25:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:25:26 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050505102526.018217c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've been e-mailing Jim for a couple of months and haven't gotten a reply. I found a phone number for him and tried it and found that now it belongs to someone else. The last message that I could find from him was in May 2003. Anybody know what's happened to him? Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 09:31:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 14:31:40 +0000 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1115303500.5845.27.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 09:24 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > If that's what I think it is, a HP 9000 520, then it's a real find. They > seem to be very rare. I have one but it doesn't work. > > Does it work? Is it the color version? (To self: I don't need any more > projects, I don't need any more projects....) We've got a T500. It's a huge grey Unix box, about the size of two 19" 6' cabs. Ours has six processors on it (@ 60MHz I think) and a GB of memory, along with a shed-load of disk. Nice enough system for museum display (wonderfully made), and can still do some useful work in terms of demos etc, but probably of less use to a home collector due to space versus wow-factor. cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 09:34:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050505095930.00b1d040@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "May 5, 5 10:16:52 am" Message-ID: <200505051434.HAA14954@floodgap.com> > I've had great luck with the TravelStars and UltraStars... but the > Death^WDeskStars I tend to avoid; Altho they're not as bad as some drives > I've used, I've not had quite as good luck with them as Western Digital. Old Western Digital drives, I had quite a lot of trouble with. They seem to have fixed their quality problems, though, and I use them exclusively now. I have an IBM drive in my desktop dual G4, though, and that seems to work pretty well. Also, the big Fujitsu half height SCSI disk in my Apple server has performed very well under constant pounding for quite awhile. I won't touch Maxtors. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Stand by to launch beef by-product into oscillating ventilation unit ... --- From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu May 5 09:48:14 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:48:14 -0500 Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505102526.018217c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050505094722.024b7ef8@mail.ubanproductions.com> I communicated via email with him in June 2004 at this address: "Jim Kearney" --tom At 10:25 AM 5/5/2005 -0400, you wrote: > I've been e-mailing Jim for a couple of months and haven't gotten a >reply. I found a phone number for him and tried it and found that now it >belongs to someone else. The last message that I could find from him was in >May 2003. Anybody know what's happened to him? > > Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 5 09:50:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:50:04 -0400 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? In-Reply-To: <1115303500.5845.27.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050505105004.014f34b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ok, it's not what I was thinking of then. The 520 is a big desktop calculator that runs Unix. AFIK it was the last big desktop machine that HP made. It was the replacement for the HP 9845. Joe At 02:31 PM 5/5/05 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 09:24 -0400, Joe R. wrote: >> If that's what I think it is, a HP 9000 520, then it's a real find. They >> seem to be very rare. I have one but it doesn't work. >> >> Does it work? Is it the color version? (To self: I don't need any more >> projects, I don't need any more projects....) > >We've got a T500. It's a huge grey Unix box, about the size of two 19" >6' cabs. Ours has six processors on it (@ 60MHz I think) and a GB of >memory, along with a shed-load of disk. > >Nice enough system for museum display (wonderfully made), and can still >do some useful work in terms of demos etc, but probably of less use to a >home collector due to space versus wow-factor. > >cheers > >Jules > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 09:58:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:58:04 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) Message-ID: <0IG000GY0UW81G44@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 02:30:29 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Do you have any more specific model information regarding these aircraft Line breaks every 80 or so chars would help. ARC 400 series. However, the ones they need have to have TSO offically or they are considered bootleg. Thats why they are rare and expensive. Allison From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 5 10:06:09 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:06:09 -0700 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm glad this thread came up. I had plenty of experience with SMD (and friends), MFM/ST506, and SCSI. But there is a gap of knowledge, corresponding with my dim recollection of the '80s, regarding ESDI. Are ESDI drives compatible with ST506 controllers? Are MFM drives compatible with ESDI controllers? I assume the answer to both of the above is no, but I'm looking for definitive verification. Anyone have information or manuals on the Sigma SCD-RQD11/EC controller? How about the Dilog DU686? Thanks, John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 10:06:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:06:38 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <0IG0007XWVAHY225@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > From: Paul Koning > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 08:56:26 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >That's not how PolyPhaser (a major player in the professional >lightning/EMP protection business) uses the terminology. Lightning >and (nuclear) EMP have rather different waveforms (EMP has faster >risetime). So protectors designed to protect from lightning aren't >necessarily helpful for EMP. (However, EMP protectors also do fine >for lightning.) They can call it what they like. EMP is only the Pulse and does not say other than loosely imply the source. While nuke has a faster rise time (wider bandwidth) the problem is essentially the same though the magnitude may be at issue. I also know Polyphasor Just outside this room is 30ft of Rohn25 with another 10ft of mast and antennas. Thats the hobby side of RF. I've also been in the commercial side of RF for some 35 years. >Calling a lightning strike "EMP" is certainly a confusing use of the >term. Only to those that only think bombs. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 10:11:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:11:35 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <0IG000G7SVIQLZM2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... > From: Cameron Kaiser > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Hard drives over the years (1981 to current) have all bee cause to curse the makers. Depending on the year I've had seagate, WD, Quantum, Maxtor, Fujitsu, Toshiba, and others on the do not touch list. It varied with model and subtle tech variations. Currently (since about the 9GB sizes came out) Maxtor is on the junk list. Before that it was Seagate and Connor. Ive found anything .0 is suspect and the latest and greatest HD of the max size is susceptable. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 5 10:12:01 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:12:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: slight OT: LED codes for Compaq Alpha PWS500au Message-ID: <50292.135.196.233.27.1115305921.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, Google's coming up dry for me (high signal/noise ratio) and the only link I can find to the service manual for these things comes up dead. Anyone got access to a service manual for 'em? I've got 2 dead ones now... cheers! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 5 10:12:14 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:12:14 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 17:20:11 PDT." <37103.207.145.53.202.1115252411.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <200505051512.j45FCEIo010376@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Eric Smith" wrote: >Brad wrote: >> If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > >Dwight wrote: >> You sink? lol. I'm not disputing what anyone is saying, but why did the backup operator hit the floor in about 5 paces? The room was full of refrigerant (freon?) which had leaked from the a/c unit (a big huge box unit with a chiller on the roof). I assumed it was because the refrigerant displaced all the air in his lungs. He passed out *very* quickly - like a few paces from the door. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 5 10:14:48 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:14:48 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 19:54:46 MDT." <42797CE6.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200505051514.j45FEmdp010842@mwave.heeltoe.com> woodelf wrote: >> >>If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? >> >>-brad >> >You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your lungs. That's what I always thought, but it seemed like people were refuting that. I thought the heavier gas sank into your lungs and displaced the air, which made you suffocate, effectively. All I can say is good thing someone heard the "thud"... -brad From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed May 4 18:19:37 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 00:19:37 +0100 Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <4278F1C2.2F0FF67@rain.org> References: <4278F1C2.2F0FF67@rain.org> Message-ID: <42795889.60501@gifford.co.uk> Marvin Johnston wrote: > An amazing site; thanks for posting it! According to this site, they are > called Minitrons and they even had the datasheet for them. Thanks!!! Wow, that name takes me back! I have a single Minitron, which I bought (new) in the late 1970s along with a 7447 decoder chip. Before I discovered computers, I had fun wiring up the 7447 to a 7490 counter and watching the Minitron display digits. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mhscc at canada.com Thu May 5 08:20:40 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:20:40 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: <01C55153.D6880120@H67.C223.tor.velocet.net> ------------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:03:52 +0100 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: AIM 65 lives Have you got any other AIM-65 or 6502 appnotes lying around anywhere? I've been trying to track down some of the old Rockwell ANs (IIRC one covered CRT controllers, another one covered DMA) but haven't had much luck. Datasheets are easy to find, but ANs seem to be the equivalent of gold dust :-/ Thanks, -- Phil. -------------------Reply: Phil, I have about a dozen, but not the two you're looking for. One day Real Soon Now I'll scan & send them to Rich Cini for inclusion in his most excellent AIM65 Web site section; I started to scan them but wasn't happy with the fine print detail. Meanwhile, I'll send you a list of what I've got, off-list. mike From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 5 10:26:33 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:26:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alpha PWS - forget it :) Found one buried Message-ID: <50504.135.196.233.27.1115306793.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> on compaq's website!! What are the chances of that :D -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 10:25:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505102526.018217c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I've been e-mailing Jim for a couple of months and haven't gotten a > reply. I found a phone number for him and tried it and found that now it > belongs to someone else. The last message that I could find from him was in > May 2003. Anybody know what's happened to him? The last I bumped into him was at VCF East 2.0 last July so this is a bit alarming. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 5 10:30:25 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:30:25 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505051030.26167.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 05 May 2005 02:34, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 5 May 2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > > Kevin wrote: > > > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I > > > > can't seem to find a definitive answer on the net. > > > > > > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were > > > several other operating systems. > > > > Do you know what the popular choice was? > > What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. I think you mean Xinu. (No, I don't know when Comer ported it to the PC, but I'm pretty sure it was there.) :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu May 5 10:33:25 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:33:25 -0400 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427A3CC5.7020507@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have the DQ 686 Qbus manual (not DU686 though) I also have the SCD-RQD11-EC manual. Joe Heck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 5 10:38:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:38:32 -0500 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505051038.32573.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 05 May 2005 10:06, John A. Dundas III wrote: > I'm glad this thread came up. I had plenty of experience with SMD > (and friends), MFM/ST506, and SCSI. But there is a gap of knowledge, > corresponding with my dim recollection of the '80s, regarding ESDI. > > Are ESDI drives compatible with ST506 controllers? > > Are MFM drives compatible with ESDI controllers? > > I assume the answer to both of the above is no, but I'm looking for > definitive verification. You'd be correct. They've got different interfaces. In general, ESDI drives have a lot higher bit-rate than ST506-interface drives do, as well. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 5 10:55:02 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 08:55:02 -0700 Subject: Manuals for Tektronix 4014 terminal Message-ID: <1115308502.7946.1.camel@linux.site> Hi, I'm looking for the maintenance manual for the Tektronix 4014 and/or 4014-1 terminals. Bitsavers only has the user manual and I need to fix the terminal. Any pointers? Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From allain at panix.com Thu May 5 11:06:11 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:06:11 -0400 Subject: Minitrons, was Re: Seven Segment Displays References: <4279988A.61B2DB78@rain.org> Message-ID: <00b401c5518c$5bec20c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > The pricing I've seen ranged from about $7.00 to $44.00 each > used and tested but so far, I haven't seen any prices for NOS > parts. I do like the $100.00 per digit though :). Let it be known that I have some NOS minitrons*, for the truly desperate. I used some back in ~1970 and was able to find a bunch more just a few years ago, that are still unused. Archer catalog #276-051, for reference, 100,000 hours stated lifespan. John A. *I was going to say 'evacuated DIP's but that has a wrong sound to it . From news at computercollector.com Thu May 5 11:31:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:31:57 -0400 Subject: Yet another reason... Message-ID: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> ...Why that "ten year rule" no longer applies: Java. http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/05/05/HNjavaat10_1.html I can already hear the moans of "hear we go again" but I figured this example is amusing enough... I recall that last time we sort of agreed that date alone is hardly what makes something "vintage". I still concur. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From news at computercollector.com Thu May 5 11:45:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:45:53 -0400 Subject: AmigaEast is cancelled Message-ID: <200505051645.j45GjAfg015160@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4627 Seems that the guy running the show didn't bother to secure his venue funding ahead of time. It was only six grand, and contrary to the comments beneath the story, it was to be held in an airport hotel in Queens, not in "New York City" in the urban Manhattan sense. (Yes I know Queens is part of NYC, I'm from NY; just saying that the people who commented in the thread don't seem to understand the context.) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 5 11:45:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:45:04 -0600 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't require >you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was probably more >useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC had a cassette >interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. > > > Well I don't consider BASIC a programing langauge ... I consider it a curse on mankind. I had forgot about BASIC but I was thinking of langauges that came on a floppy. I don't think C came out until after the AT. >Pat > > From news at computercollector.com Thu May 5 12:08:00 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:08:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Need some research help -- anyone speak Dutch? Message-ID: <200505051707.j45H7Chw015399@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hi, I need to find an email address for Karl de Leeuw, a professor at the University of Utrecht. I tried to explore the university's site but most of it isn't in English. Can anyone help? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu May 5 12:20:38 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 13:20:38 -0400 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? In-Reply-To: <1115303500.5845.27.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1115303500.5845.27.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 5/5/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 09:24 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > > If that's what I think it is, a HP 9000 520, then it's a real find. They > > seem to be very rare. I have one but it doesn't work. > > > > Does it work? Is it the color version? (To self: I don't need any more > > projects, I don't need any more projects....) > > We've got a T500. It's a huge grey Unix box, about the size of two 19" > 6' cabs. Ours has six processors on it (@ 60MHz I think) and a GB of > memory, along with a shed-load of disk. > > Nice enough system for museum display (wonderfully made), and can still > do some useful work in terms of demos etc, but probably of less use to a > home collector due to space versus wow-factor. Yes. It is the huge rack tower type. > > cheers > > Jules > > From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 5 12:30:41 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:30:41 -0400 Subject: Model 10x Chipmunk Disk OS Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050505125155.050c2b38@mail.30below.com> Dudez & Dudettez! Otay, I got everything I need..... Almost. :-/ I have an (apparently) functional Chipmunk drive, an (apparently) functional interface board for it, and now the cable as well. I have a computer with SuperROM in it, which seems to have no clue what the heck a Chipmunk drive is... So much for the "easy way out"... In what little I can find on the InterWeb there was a DOS boot disk for the 'munks, and IIRC it was called CDOS (bookmarks at home, /me at work right now)... *Anyone* out there have a copy of the boot disk for a Chipmunk drive? Will paypal or trade whatever necessary...[1] [[ My apologies to those who may be subbed to both lists -- It's ontopic for both, and I wanted to reach the widest audience possible. ]] BTW, Anyone know of a good US supplier for NiCd (or NiMH would work too, I suppose) battery packs, or at least soldertab AA, C and/or D cells? I have battery packs to rebuild for the following equipment: 3 chipmunk drives Tandy Model 600 Panasonic HHC Panasonic HHC Printer and offtopically, whist I'm at it I could "more easily" power 4 homebrew AVR boards I'm building... And that's just off the top of my head... I could possibly build soldertab batteries, I have some silver epoxy available, but it would be a fair amount of work to do... I'd much prefer to just buy the things. Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] I have a few spare Model T's available, I'll have 2 chipmunk drives available after the battery rebuilds, a couple of kids, maybe the wife, whaddya want? ;-P -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 5 12:49:40 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:49:40 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505102526.018217c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: He's here: jim at jkearney.com I communicated with him less than a week ago. Bill From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 5 13:00:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:00:03 +0100 Subject: PET Haul Today In-Reply-To: <200505042246.PAA14798@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200505051800.j45I06Js016627@dewey.classiccmp.org> > No. There are two collections classed as "PET 64s" -- the > true PET or Educator 64, which is just a regular 64 in a PET > case with a monochrome monitor; and the 4064, which also > appears in PET cases, with a modified Kernal that turns the > background to black, text colour to white and all sprite > colours to black during interrupts. Sounds grand - I've not heard of the other one before! */me files under 'today's learned things* :) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 13:02:06 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505051512.j45FCEIo010376@mwave.heeltoe.com> from Brad Parker at "May 5, 5 11:12:14 am" Message-ID: <200505051802.LAA09404@floodgap.com> > I'm not disputing what anyone is saying, but why did the backup operator > hit the floor in about 5 paces? The room was full of refrigerant > (freon?) which had leaked from the a/c unit (a big huge box unit with a > chiller on the roof). > > I assumed it was because the refrigerant displaced all the air in his > lungs. He passed out *very* quickly - like a few paces from the door. No -- in this case, it's likely a direct effect caused by the freon. Halogenated hydrocarbons are not inert in the body -- in fact, many gas anaesthetics like halothane, isoflurane, etc. are also halogenated hydrocarbons. He'd eventually have exchanged them out with exposure to room air, but the point is that the compound does have physiologic effects when inhaled (unlike, say, a noble gas like helium), and that's why he dropped (not merely from hypoxia). Here's a tox note from Vanderbuilt's med school on freon exposure, btw: http://www.toxicology.mc.vanderbilt.edu/Outreach/Poison/FREON.html -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 5 13:06:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:06:20 +0100 Subject: free TRS80 book available in Holland Message-ID: <200505051806.j45I6L0N016964@dewey.classiccmp.org> Folks, Had a mail from one Rudy Koopman who said: "rudy koopman (koopman365 at hotmail.com) on May 1st, 2005 at 11:09AM (BST). Goodmoring I found your site because I've got a book called "How to do it on the trs-80" written by William Barden Jr. ISBN 0 936200 08 1" It's free for the cost of shipping so contact Rudy directly if you're interested. Ta :) -- Adrian/Witchy Creator/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection. www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for letting you moan about adverts! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 13:15:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 14:15:36 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0IG100EE941EPHM3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > From: Brad Parker > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:14:48 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >woodelf wrote: >>> >>>If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? >>> >>>-brad >>> >>You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your lungs. > >That's what I always thought, but it seemed like people were refuting >that. I thought the heavier gas sank into your lungs and displaced the >air, which made you suffocate, effectively. Exactly. You feel like your getting foggy(near drunk feeling) as your breathing but not ridding oneself of CO2 and your getting no O2, hypoxia sets in fast under a minute. If you don't know the signs you will pass out before you even have a clue. Allison From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu May 5 13:15:31 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050504204106.R91200@shell.lmi.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050504204106.R91200@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41139.127.0.0.1.1115316931.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> On Wed, May 4, 2005 8:57 pm, Fred Cisin said: > > Eric is right, of course, but IBM (and particularly some third party > IBM dealers, such as Computerland) also liked to bundle a few products > together. > Since low level format of hard drives was only available in the > "Advanced Diagnostics", if you bought a machine and OS at the same > time, IBM would gladly "install" it. > > PC-DOS 1.00 was released simultaneously with the 5150. (8/11/1981) > > PC-DOS 1.10 added support for double sided drives. > > PC-DOS 2.00 was released simultaneously with the availability of the XT, > and added support for 9 sectors per track (v 8), subdirectories, and hard > drives. > > PC-DOS 2.10 was released simultaneously with the PCJr and "portable PC", > and slowed down disk access for the lousy Qume 142 drives > > PC-DOS 3.00 was released simultaneously with the AT, and added support for > 1.2M floppies. > > PC-DOS 3.10 added the network redirector and a few other items. > > PC-DOS 3.20 added support for 720K 3.5" drives. > > PC-DOS 3.30 was released simultaneously with the PS/2s, and added support > for 1.4M drives. > > PC-DOS 4.00 added support for hard drives > 32M > > PC-DOS 5.00 add some bundled software > > PC-DOS 6.10 added bundled Compression. > > PC-DOS 7.00 is too new to worry about. > > NOTE: 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31 were only available as MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS. > There was also a DOS 1.05 released between 1.00 and 1.10 that fixed a math bug in BASIC, if I recall correctly. It was available from retailers but it was never sold as a packaged item. I've got a copy of it, obtained from ComputerLand, in my DOS 1.0 box. I'm pretty sure it boots as DOS 1.0 but contains new BASIC and BASICA programs. I found this interesting resource while trying to back up my 1.05 memory: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Villa/6113/doshist.htm -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From sieler at allegro.com Thu May 5 13:18:38 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:18:38 -0700 Subject: Hollerith D11 wanted for hire (UK) In-Reply-To: <1115133327.2411.71.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <427A010E.343.1D905662@localhost> Re: > We've just been contacted by a film company who are interested in hiring > a Hollerith D11 - anyone in the UK happen to have one or know where > there is one? At one point, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum had one, according to a paper at http://www.temple.edu/tempress/chapters/1625_ch1.pdf The museum's home page is http://www.ushmm.org/ Their D11 is: USHMM COLLECTION (1990.48.1) USHMM # 9048-1 photo at http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/9048-1.htm -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From GOOI at oce.nl Thu May 5 13:34:18 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:34:18 +0200 Subject: Need some research help -- anyone speak Dutch? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C45@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I guess I speak Dutch :~) Actually a dialect, I live in the southern part. I found this link that allows you to enter the last name: http://www.uu.nl/uupublish/homeuu/deuniversiteit/wiewatwaar/solisugids/24594 main.html "leeuw" are a few, but none has as first name Karl ... It would help if you can tell in what department / study detail he works, perhaps I can do a better search ... - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 5-5-2005 19:08 Subject: OT: Need some research help -- anyone speak Dutch? Hi, I need to find an email address for Karl de Leeuw, a professor at the University of Utrecht. I tried to explore the university's site but most of it isn't in English. Can anyone help? From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 5 13:34:57 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 14:34:57 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505051514.j45FEmdp010842@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050505142226.03d1b118@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brad Parker may have mentioned these words: >woodelf wrote: > >> > >>If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > >> > >>-brad > >> > >You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your lungs. > >That's what I always thought, but it seemed like people were refuting >that. I thought the heavier gas sank into your lungs and displaced the >air, which made you suffocate, effectively. It sounds like you're assuming a cumulative effect -- if that was the case, we'd never be able to get the CO2 [which is heavier than air] out of our lungs! IANAD, but I would think that (at least in healthy people) the expulsion volume to total volume ratio of the lungs is rather high (60-70% maybe?) - and with the amount of air turbulence created during exhalation a lot of the argon/CO2/[insert heavy gas here] would be expelled. Once you breathe back in, as long as there's enough O2 to sustain life (and a low enough concentration of other molecules which would bind to hemoglobin quicker, say CO) you should be fine. Otherwise, once anyone caught a bit of pneumonia, they'd be dead. Mucus is one heckuva lot heavier and more dense than argon or CO2! In the example you gave, I would think the freon would knock him out a lot faster than the lack of O2 -- I've smelled it a few times, and I liken it to the CS gas I had to breathe in the US Army during boot camp -- nasty stuff. Even lighter than air inert gasses (helium) can be bad for you in high enough concentrations, if they still displace enough O2. You'd just have to climb a ladder instead of lay on the floor to be susceptible, tho. ;-) >All I can say is good thing someone heard the "thud"... Very true! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 5 13:48:51 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505051514.j45FEmdp010842@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505051514.j45FEmdp010842@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200505051905.PAA12886@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? >> You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your >> lungs. > That's what I always thought, but it seemed like people were refuting > that. I thought the heavier gas sank into your lungs and displaced > the air, which made you suffocate, effectively. You're forgetting that while gases do stratify based on weight, this takes time. If you were take a lungful of a mix of gases and hold it, completely still, for a long time (hours to days), yes, it would stratify out. But the typical time between inhaling and exhaling is so short that for anything nonviscous enough to breathe, the weight of the gas doesn't matter. As someone else poinetd out, it's the same reason we don't have some miles of argon and carbon dioxide at the bottom of the atmosphere: there is constant mixing going on. > All I can say is good thing someone heard the "thud"... This is a mystery to me. Even with no oxygen to breathe at all, a person can remain conscious for several seconds - a fairly long time when you're rushing for the exit door - and a lot longer than that with enough warning to get a lungful of good air. Sitting here typing this, I've held my breath for a minute and a half, without any more preparation that one deep breath; even deliberately stopping breathing at the empty end of a normal breath, I had no problem for fifteen seconds and only minor problem with thirty. I speculate that what happened is that this person got, by chance, a lungful with almost no air in it and panicked at the suffocating feeling, attention going to dealing with breathing rather than to getting out of there. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Thu May 5 14:14:46 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <42797D71.8030803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 09:51:45 EDT." <17016.54129.900633.16076@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505050005.j4505r0X007174@mwave.heeltoe.com> <36953.207.145.53.202.1115252297.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050504181223.Q1126@localhost> <42797D71.8030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050505121429.H757@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, woodelf wrote: > So where does the FART layer go? Texas. From tony.eros at machm.org Thu May 5 14:15:04 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:15:04 -0400 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505051030.26167.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> >> What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. >I think you mean Xinu. You mean the ancient evil alien responsible for all the ills of mankind, from whom only the enlightenment that comes with expensive Scientology training can protect us? No, wait -- that's Xenu... My bad. -- Tony From tomj at wps.com Thu May 5 14:16:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <000901c550da$ce6a4210$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000901c550da$ce6a4210$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <20050505121531.M757@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Antonio Carlini wrote: >> It's only by the virtues of "capitalism" that you can buy a >> working floppy drive for $10. > > But the original complaint is that he _cannot_ buy a > _working_ floppy drive! I forget the author: "America is the place where, you can buy a year's worth of aspirin for one dollar, and use it all up in a week." From tomj at wps.com Thu May 5 14:19:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050505121701.F757@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > It also wouldn't explain why we have 300GB hard drives today that work > just as reliably if not more so than 10MB drives of 20 years ago. When fixed rotating magnetic memory occupies the same industrial/economic niche as floppies, it will be just as crappy. Remember, radio tubes went through the same thing. Filamentary lightbulbs are similar now, Sylvania is about the only manufacturer of them domesically (US) and they suck. From tomj at wps.com Thu May 5 14:22:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: References: <0IFZ00EWIOPCPFW0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050505122145.G757@localhost> On Wed, 4 May 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: >> FYI: those things are considered rare as hens teeth as most systems >> that use them have burnt them out. One series of ARC (used in cessna >> aircraft) radios had them as they were bright enough for day use >> and I hear they cost about 100$+ per digit to replace. Wow, I guess I should go buy up that lot I know of. They're assembled into little 2-digit assemblies with cable, unused, 1/4" or 3/8" high digits, 5V. They're pretty, and dimmable. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 5 14:44:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <200505051944.MAA14549@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brad Parker" > > >"Eric Smith" wrote: >>Brad wrote: >>> If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? >> >>Dwight wrote: >>> You sink? > >lol. > >I'm not disputing what anyone is saying, but why did the backup operator >hit the floor in about 5 paces? The room was full of refrigerant >(freon?) which had leaked from the a/c unit (a big huge box unit with a >chiller on the roof). > >I assumed it was because the refrigerant displaced all the air in his >lungs. He passed out *very* quickly - like a few paces from the door. > >-brad > Hi I would assume that where he was, there wasn't enough oxygen. Remember that it takes some time for the gas to mix and diffuse throughout the room. I'm told that even for halon, one should hold ones breath so that you have some oxygen in your lungs until things have a chance to mix. As Eric noted, the gas will quickly mix with the air to become a percentage of the rest of the air. The diffusion forces on gas tend to out weigh the effects of the weigh of the gas. Once mixed, it doesn't unmix easily. It is similar to water and salt. One can carefully pour fresh water over salt water but if it is mixed, it will not separate by weight. Dwight From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu May 5 03:06:11 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:06:11 +0100 Subject: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 23:26:08 BST." Message-ID: <200505050806.JAA15550@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > > > > Anyone know why modern floppy disks are such total junk? They seem to > > Yes, they're too damn cheap.... > > I can rememebr paying \pounds 3.00 for a 5.25" floppy disk. One disk, not > a box of 10. My old model 1 stored 88K on such a disk. And those disks > are still readable 20+ years later. > Back in the mid '80s I got fed up with the high price charged for floppies in the shops and started to bulk-buy them. To make up sufficently large orders to get a decent discount I started to sell them locally to various users, including a school. I bought "noname" disks in thousands and repackaged them in tens and sold them with a lifetime no-quibble guarantee, if one failed I'd replace it. I never got any returns, so they were probably pretty reliable. I'm still using some of the disks and the lockable disk boxes my supplier threw in as freebies... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From eriksklein at pacbell.net Thu May 5 10:53:24 2005 From: eriksklein at pacbell.net (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050505155324.77914.qmail@web81404.mail.yahoo.com> There was also a DOS 1.05 released between 1.00 and 1.10 that fixed a math bug in BASIC, if I recall correctly. It was available from retailers but it was never sold as a packaged item. I've got a copy of it, obtained from ComputerLand, in my DOS 1.0 box. I'm pretty sure it boots as DOS 1.0 but contains new BASIC and BASICA programs. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum Fred Cisin wrote: > Kevin wrote: > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > > find a definitive answer on the net. On Wed, 4 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several > other operating systems. Eric is right, of course, but IBM (and particularly some third party IBM dealers, such as Computerland) also liked to bundle a few products together. Since low level format of hard drives was only available in the "Advanced Diagnostics", if you bought a machine and OS at the same time, IBM would gladly "install" it. PC-DOS 1.00 was released simultaneously with the 5150. (8/11/1981) PC-DOS 1.10 added support for double sided drives. PC-DOS 2.00 was released simultaneously with the availability of the XT, and added support for 9 sectors per track (v 8), subdirectories, and hard drives. PC-DOS 2.10 was released simultaneously with the PCJr and "portable PC", and slowed down disk access for the lousy Qume 142 drives PC-DOS 3.00 was released simultaneously with the AT, and added support for 1.2M floppies. PC-DOS 3.10 added the network redirector and a few other items. PC-DOS 3.20 added support for 720K 3.5" drives. PC-DOS 3.30 was released simultaneously with the PS/2s, and added support for 1.4M drives. PC-DOS 4.00 added support for hard drives > 32M PC-DOS 5.00 add some bundled software PC-DOS 6.10 added bundled Compression. PC-DOS 7.00 is too new to worry about. NOTE: 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31 were only available as MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu May 5 12:11:39 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:11:39 -0500 Subject: who wants an HP 9000 T500? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050505092406.00941100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I presume he has a T500...no color involved. It's a big cabinet. It was the followon to the HP9000/890. The T500 was followed by the T520 and later the T600. We have a T600 still in production. 12 CPU's (160mhz PA-8000) and 3.25G memory. A T500 is big and eats a lot of power. Nice toy though. I don't really have the power for one of them. :-( -Bob > If that's what I think it is, a HP 9000 520, then it's a real find. They >seem to be very rare. I have one but it doesn't work. > > Does it work? Is it the color version? (To self: I don't need any more >projects, I don't need any more projects....) > > Joe > > >At 11:12 PM 5/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >>very heavy in cleveland, OH, USA >> >> -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 5 12:41:12 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: All Things ESDI Message-ID: <20050505174112.22FBE70C66FC@bitsavers.org> National Semi had a very good series of App notes on disk interfaces back when they were in the biz. AN-500 describes the ESDI interface. There is another one that has a general overview of all the interfaces from the mid-80s AN-413 re: Dilog manuals, DQ686 and 696 should be up on bitsavers soon From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 5 13:27:44 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:27:44 +0200 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 05 May 2005 09:28:40 +0200, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > woodelf declared on Wednesday 04 May 2005 10:04 pm: >> Parker, Kevin wrote: >> >Do you know what the popular choice was? >> >> My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more >> popular with the clones. Now what programing languges >> did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran >> come to mind. > > Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't require > you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was probably more > useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC had a cassette > interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. > From 1980 onwards I worked for a computer center which was one of the original IBM PC-vendors (in Norway, but the release was worldwide - we were sworn to strict secrecy before the launch). We never sold any casette-only or single-sided diskette models. I recall that we had a number of boxes with CP-M 86 on the shelf, but we never sold a singele one. We also had UCSD-Pascal(an odd operating system, reasonably cross-platform), but almost everybody bought PC-DOS. All the IBM 8088-based PCs had ROM BASIC. That was not really useful for very much, except that you had a functioning computer even if you started it without a boot diskette. When the XT came around, we also got COBOL compilers which relied on BASIC for BCD arithmetic and conversion functions. When the first clone PCs arrived, the COBOL applications and compiler did not work on them until somebody came up with a TSR to replace the IBM BASIC interpreter. Most serious programming was done in Assembler, including large applications like word processors. FORTRAN was also much used, and an important banking application was made in IBM Pascal. All the compilers were very expensive. The big breakthrough for hobbyist programmers came with Turbo Pascal, the first affordable development tool for the PC. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 5 13:35:13 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:35:13 +0200 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 05 May 2005 18:45:04 +0200, woodelf wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't >> require you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was >> probably more useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC >> had a cassette interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. >> >> > Well I don't consider BASIC a programing langauge ... I consider it a > curse on mankind. > I had forgot about BASIC but I was thinking of langauges that came on a > floppy. > I don't think C came out until after the AT. > IBM C 3.0 came just before OS/2 1.0 as far as I'm able to recall. The first PC C compiler I used was odd - it did not have the standard function library, everything was slightly different. I think that would have been shortly after the XT was launched. -- -bv From mhscc at canada.com Thu May 5 13:37:06 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:37:06 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: <01C5517F.EA8E06C0@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> ------------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:03:52 +0100 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: Re: AIM 65 lives Have you got any other AIM-65 or 6502 appnotes lying around anywhere? I've been trying to track down some of the old Rockwell ANs (IIRC one covered CRT controllers, another one covered DMA) but haven't had much luck. Datasheets are easy to find, but ANs seem to be the equivalent of gold dust :-/ Thanks, -- Phil. -------------------Reply: Phil, I have about a dozen, but not the two you're looking for. One day Real Soon Now I'll scan & send them to Rich Cini for inclusion in his most excellent AIM65 Web site section; I started to scan them but wasn't happy with the fine print detail. Meanwhile, I'll send you a list of what I've got, off-list. mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 5 15:54:27 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:54:27 -0700 Subject: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) References: <0IG000GY0UW81G44@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <427A8804.97713C9B@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > ARC 400 series. However, the ones they need have to have TSO offically > or they are considered bootleg. Thats why they are rare and expensive. Thanks, googled and found a picture that matches the layout of what I have, labeling associated with the picture was ambiguous, but I think it's the ARC 400 DME unit. (http://www.barronthomas.com/21081t.htm, 3rd unit down in avionics stack, deep-red displays showing 118 and 108) > Line breaks every 80 or so chars would help. ...hmmm, figured everything would auto-wrap by this day ... 80 column limits: now that's vintage/legacy computing. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 5 15:37:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 16:37:57 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050505094722.024b7ef8@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: <3.0.6.32.20050505102526.018217c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050505163757.00947320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's the address that I used. I also used his xpace address. No reply to either one. Joe At 09:48 AM 5/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I communicated via email with him in June 2004 at this address: >"Jim Kearney" > >--tom > >At 10:25 AM 5/5/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >> I've been e-mailing Jim for a couple of months and haven't gotten a >>reply. I found a phone number for him and tried it and found that now it >>belongs to someone else. The last message that I could find from him was in >>May 2003. Anybody know what's happened to him? >> >> Joe > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 5 16:31:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? Message-ID: <200505052131.OAA14588@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Curt I just talked with Tix ( owner of the site ) and he seemed at dismay. He says that he gets the pictures from a number of people that send them in. He doesn't always have the ability to filter out those that have been lifted from those that are original. Also, in the past, his site didn't have a place for credits ( I've looked at his site before ). It seems that he has added this and I'd suspect that the picture in question may have been there a long time. In any case, work with him. If you feel that he needs to pull the picture, just let him know. His English is a little rough, being Italian, but he is a good sort. I think he does a good job overall and I've noticed that in many places, he does give credits to the various sources. I think that his intentions are good. Dwight >From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > >Thanks Sellam... > > Yup, just as expected, several photo's taken from my site, old ones >too. Its not the case with this site, but have you ever seen the >sites that take photo's from your own site, then the site that steals >them put's their own watermark on them, that always raises an eyebrow >for the contempt displayed. Well, dispite this 1000bit site >plundering others to generate content to for itself, it is a nice >looking, well setup site. > > > >Curt > > > >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>On Wed, 4 May 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> >> >> >>>I didn't see the original msg, whats the URL for this Vintage Computer >>>site... I find my images and content from atarimuseum.com constantly >>>commandeered by other sites and not so much as a simple text saying >>>"stolen without permission" ;-) >>> >>> >> >>Hey Curt! >> >>http://www.1000bit.net >> >> >> > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 5 16:52:34 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net> >> What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. >I think you mean Xinu. D'ya mean that PICK was NOT the most popular OS??? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 5 16:59:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 14:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <41139.127.0.0.1.1115316931.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050504204106.R91200@shell.lmi.net> <41139.127.0.0.1.1115316931.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20050505145351.P11751@shell.lmi.net> > > PC-DOS 7.00 is too new to worry about. > > NOTE: 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31 were only available as MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS. On Thu, 5 May 2005, Erik Klein wrote: > There was also a DOS 1.05 released between 1.00 and 1.10 that fixed a math > bug in BASIC, if I recall correctly. It was available from retailers but > it was never sold as a packaged item. Yes, there were several that I omitted (such as PC-DOS 4.01) My list was just off of the top of my head. > I found this interesting resource while trying to back up my 1.05 memory: > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Villa/6113/doshist.htm That's a pretty good list. But it has some errors, including some important dates that aren't accurate (the EXACT date of 5.00 is significant in MS-DOS history), and some poor choices of what the "important" differences were, such as completely missing the point of 6.2x I suppose somebody needs to do a definitive list for a FAQ. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 5 17:09:17 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:09:17 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200505051709.17330.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 05 May 2005 11:45, woodelf wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't > > require you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was > > probably more useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the > > PC had a cassette interface you could use with it, which the XT > > lacks. > > Well I don't consider BASIC a programing langauge ... I consider it a > curse on mankind. I think most of the people that collect late 70s and 80s microcomputers here will disagree with you on that one (along with people that used timesharing basics on minicomputers of the 70s). Personally, I first learned to write programs in BASIC on Apple ][e's when I was in grade school. Shortly after that came playing with gwbasic on the machine we had at home, and then using DEBUG to write assembly code, and then a combination of QuickBASIC and MASM to finally be able to write "real" programs (well, stuff that ended up as machine code in EXE files). Man, I miss my excursions in DEBUG some times. DEBUG taught me what happened when you lowered the memory refresh rate - when memory on PCs was still refreshed via a DMA channel - by too much. :) > I had forgot about BASIC but I was thinking of > langauges that came on a floppy. BASIC did come on a floppy as well... GWBASIC in MS-DOS and BASIC.COM/BASICA.COM in IBM-DOS (which used ROM BASIC to provide most of the functionality). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu May 5 17:30:25 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 17:30:25 -0500 Subject: Fwd: karl de leeuw Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050505172946.00bdba10@localhost> >From: "the Ranks" >To: >Cc: "Tom Peters" >Subject: karl de leeuw >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:18:29 -0500 >X-Spambayes-Classification: ham > >Hi > >I've searched the universities web site for you and found their e-mail >phone book at >https://solis-ugids.uu.nl/ > >However when I searched for leeuw.. the proper way the search for a "de >Leeuw" last name, nobody came up as a K. de Leeuw >If you can give me a department name and some more info... is he really in >Utrecht? I might be able to help you more. >I do speak dutch so surfing their web site is no problem. Hope this helps >somewhat > >Louisa [Philosophy] "I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." -- Robin Williams in "Awakenings" --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 5 17:31:46 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:31:46 -0700 Subject: All Things ESDI In-Reply-To: <20050505174112.22FBE70C66FC@bitsavers.org> References: <20050505174112.22FBE70C66FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, At 10:41 AM -0700 5/5/05, Al Kossow wrote: >National Semi had a very good series of App notes on disk interfaces >back when they >were in the biz. AN-500 describes the ESDI interface. There is >another one that has >a general overview of all the interfaces from the mid-80s AN-413 > >re: Dilog manuals, DQ686 and 696 should be up on bitsavers soon You're the best. Thanks again, John From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 5 17:38:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:38:52 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... References: <0IG000G7SVIQLZM2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17018.41084.443000.220461@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> Ive found anything .0 is suspect and the latest and greatest Allison> HD of the max size is susceptable. We've found that this is not necessarily true. Also, I don't think you can ever buy anything else. Drive generations follow one another very quickly, and manufacturers only sell the latest generation, whatever that is any particular quarter. A smaller than max size drive is either the max size of the previous generation, or simply a drive with fewer platters and heads than the max currently available. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 5 17:40:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:40:22 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <37103.207.145.53.202.1115252411.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200505051512.j45FCEIo010376@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17018.41174.858000.366621@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> "Eric Smith" wrote: >> Brad wrote: >>> If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? >> Dwight wrote: >>> You sink? Brad> lol. Brad> I'm not disputing what anyone is saying, but why did the backup Brad> operator hit the floor in about 5 paces? The room was full of Brad> refrigerant (freon?) which had leaked from the a/c unit (a big Brad> huge box unit with a chiller on the roof). Brad> I assumed it was because the refrigerant displaced all the air Brad> in his lungs. He passed out *very* quickly - like a few paces Brad> from the door. Different scenario. Halon fire suppression systems are designed to put only a few percent of halon into the room, not enough to "displace oxygen". The case you mentioned was an uncontrolled discharge, presumably a much larger amount. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 5 17:51:03 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 15:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200505051512.j45FCEIo010376@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 04 May 2005 17:20:11 PDT." <37103.207.145.53.202.1115252411.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <200505051512.j45FCEIo010376@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <40822.207.145.53.202.1115333463.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brad wrote: > but why did the backup operator > hit the floor in about 5 paces? > I assumed it was because the refrigerant displaced all the air in his > lungs. He passed out *very* quickly - like a few paces from the door. There's no way that something is going to display all the O2 in your lungs that quickly, and even if it did, you wouldn't pass out that quickly. It would take at least 30 seconds. So there must have been some other effect or reaction involved. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 5 17:53:11 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 15:53:11 -0700 Subject: HP 21mx on epay Message-ID: <427AA3D7.25D93DCE@msm.umr.edu> in penciltucky (aka Marietta, Pa) too far for me from the auction description: Model 21MX E series The price is for the lot. Includes 2 ea Model 7970E digital tape units, 1600 CPI read after write; General Electric TermiNet 340 pin feed printer; 3 ea Model 7920 disk drives; 6 ea Model 7925 disk drives here's the auction in case you can't get the following to play as a link 5193795534 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5193795534&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1 From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 5 18:00:47 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:00:47 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays References: <4278DFBD.E666A95B@rain.org> Message-ID: <002101c551c6$47b18d40$0100a8c0@screamer> Numitrons! Want to sell them?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 10:44 AM Subject: Seven Segment Displays > > I have eight NOS seven segment displays in a 16 pin DIP package. These > displays have a glass cover and each of the segments have a wire running > between the two contacts. The only markings I see are "Japan" and > "3015-5" on the back and "C-27-09" on the side. My suspicion is that > they are incandescent but I haven't found any information on them yet > using Google. Does anyone know what these things are called? > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 5 18:12:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:12:38 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002f01c551c7$ef52f420$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 2:38 PM Subject: Re: OT: EMP and Equipment > Your confusing netrons and gamma particles that go through most > everything to Electromagnetic waves that don't. Faraday shield > will stop or suffifiently attenuate EM waves. I've been told (during military service) that the dv/dt of an EMP is so fast a Faraday cage will saturate and the eddy currents are so strong it re-launches an EM wave inside the cage. 'Hardened' systems have redundant layers of protection and still assume there will be damage. If you want to protect your classic collection, its time to start living the lifestyle of a James Bond villain. But isn't that the real reason we have a basement full of blinking lights anyway? At least that often seems to be the case for the people with older mini's or real heavy iron. And these are the systems that stand a better chance of survival. The plastic cased consumer grade stuff would need to be sitting at the bottom of a silo to survive. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 5 18:12:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:12:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source)" (May 5, 14:48) References: <200505051514.j45FEmdp010842@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200505051905.PAA12886@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10505060012.ZM10046@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 5 2005, 14:48, der Mouse wrote: > >>> If you inhale a gas which is heavier than air, what happens? > >> You die rather quickly as you can't get the BAD air out of your > >> lungs. > > That's what I always thought, but it seemed like people were refuting > > that. I thought the heavier gas sank into your lungs and displaced > > the air, which made you suffocate, effectively. > > You're forgetting that while gases do stratify based on weight, this > takes time. If you were take a lungful of a mix of gases and hold it, > completely still, for a long time (hours to days), yes, it would > stratify out. Sorry, but that simply isn't so. Put two gasses together and each will diffuse evenly throughout the space they're contained in. Left undisturbed, they will not separate out in layers. Unlike liquids, all gasses are miscible with each other. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 17:54:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 23:54:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> from "Parker, Kevin" at May 5, 5 12:11:50 pm Message-ID: > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't seem to > find a definitive answer on the net. Microsoft ROM BASIC ? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 18:00:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:00:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at May 4, 5 11:10:00 pm Message-ID: > I saw some at a hamfest. I lost my interest as I figured out that they > operated the same way as most VCR displays. Not at all! The Minitrons are incandescent displays. The light comes from a hot filament wire, like a light bulb. Most VCRs (at least over here) use vacuum fluorescent displays. They're a bit like directly heated triode valves with fluorescent compounds on the anode (plate). There's a filament (or two) across the front of the device, operated below red heat, so you don't see it glow. The anodes are the shape of the segments and other symbols and glow when hit by electrons emitted by the filament. And there's a grid between them. Normally corresponding segments of the various digits are connected together inside the device, the grids are used to select a particular digit -- it's a stnadard multiplexred drive. [One of my VCRs has a load of LED 7 segment displays on the front, but that's another story...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 18:13:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:13:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: from "=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=" at May 5, 5 08:27:44 pm Message-ID: > All the IBM 8088-based PCs had ROM BASIC. That was not really useful for The PC/AT does too... > very much, except that you had a functioning computer even if you started > it without a boot diskette. When the XT came around, we also got COBOL It's _very_ useful when you've got a malfunctioning disk controller and want to send bytes to various registers on the card to figure out what the problem is. (If that sounds like the voice of experience, you're right. The 765 o nthe IBM disc controller can be reset in software IIRC, and one of the chips -- either the output port latch or an inverter, I forget -- failed on the card in my XT. Being able to toggle that port bit by hand let me find the problem in a few seconds). -tony From KParker at workcover.com Thu May 5 18:32:35 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:02:35 +0930 Subject: All things ESDI Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE9A@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <<< I think on some ESDI controllers, the C800:5 trick did work, though. I located the manual on Adaptec's web site and this is basically the only instruction you give the controller after loading debug. Whilst I haven't tried or seen it, it supposedly loads some option driven system to setup the drives. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone Sent: Thursday, 5 May 2005 3:52 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: All things ESDI > ESDI was common in high-performance machines and for "large" drives > - 120MB was about the smallest I saw (when 20MB - 40MB was still > common) and ~330MB was typical. I have heard of ~600MB units but > never installed one. I think I handled a 600 in a Novell server once. > It's an Int11 device, just like an ST-506 drive. The BIOS needs > to be configured with the right number of heads, cylinders and > sectors-per-track, tho' picking type 20 or so will usually give you > enough to boot and read the true settings off the drive itself. They > will probably need to be low-level formatted if moving them from > one controller to another. DEBUG and then G=c800:5 is what I dimly > recall for this, tho' in later years I used CheckIt or even SpinRite > to do this. I'm inclined to disagree, though I'm hardly the expert. Specifically, I recall having trouble setting up several ESDI drives in servers. The fix was to tell the machine BIOS the disk didn't exist, then let the ESDI controller BIOS work out geometry. I think on some ESDI controllers, the C800:5 trick did work, though. That was a common disk interface, MFM, ESDI etc. De ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu May 5 18:57:22 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:57:22 -0400 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [ESDI drives] > I think I handled a 600 in a Novell server once. In the early 90's, I was a huge fan of ESDI drives. The largest I ever dealt with were 1.3 Gig Hitachi's. The larger-capacity drives generally had higher data rates and most WD-based PC-clone controllers couldn't handle them. I think the largest were targetted towards ESDI-based RAID arrays. They were built like Bentley's - solid! The ESDI interface was sort-of like a slightly scaled down SMD interface. The drives did seek counting, and there were medium-level commands that the controller could send to a drive. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 19:14:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:14:10 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) Message-ID: <0IG100KNVKMXZWD5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) > From: Brent Hilpert > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:54:27 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Thanks, googled and found a picture that matches the layout of what I have, >labeling associated with the picture was ambiguous, but I think it's the ARC 400 DME unit. > >(http://www.barronthomas.com/21081t.htm, 3rd unit down in avionics stack, >deep-red displays showing 118 and 108) They also had a Navcom with flipflop displays. They may not have been the only user. I just happen to know about that case as I fly a Cessna and live by a unusually relaible ARC308C. >> Line breaks every 80 or so chars would help. >....hmmm, figured everything would auto-wrap by this day ... >80 column limits: now that's vintage/legacy computing. Any your expect what on a Classic list? So happens I use Popcorn for to watch this list and it's dumb as a stump and fairly virus proof. Otherwise T-bird is the regular mailer an issue. I hate Mickyspooge and even though I use the OS I try to NOT use the associated apps that are buggy, insecure and leaky. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu May 5 19:14:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:14:41 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <002f01c551c7$ef52f420$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <002f01c551c7$ef52f420$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <427AB6F1.nailFFQ1DSW2R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Your confusing neutrons and gamma particles that go through most > everything to Electromagetic waves that don't. Umm, dude, Gammas are photons are electromagnetic waves. Wave-particle duality and all that. And neutrons are easily stopped by a piece of paper :-). > Faraday shield will stop or siffifiently attenuate EM waves. Gammas get through many shields because their wavelength can be small compared to atom-to-atom spacing in a solid, if they're high enough energy. At even higher energies other effects take over. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu May 5 19:18:07 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:18:07 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <002f01c551c7$ef52f420$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <0IFZ00LTFAGJ0L81@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <002f01c551c7$ef52f420$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <427AB7BF.nailFGA1XX0UE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > its time to start living the lifestyle of a James Bond villain I already have my extensive network of underground tunnels controlled by VAXen :-). > [...] older mini's or real heavy iron. And these are the systems that > stand a better chance of survival. Any external cabling outside the metal box (or even running between metal boxes inside a metal box) will pick up huge spikes from an EMP. Compactness and self-containedness (attributes of some but not all mini's and mainframes) goes a long way in reducing susceptibility. Tim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 5 19:21:02 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 17:21:02 -0700 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <427AB86E.9B26F49B@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: > >> What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. > >I think you mean Xinu. > > D'ya mean that PICK was NOT the most popular OS??? For what it's worth I own the original Pick PC, on which the three developers that worked for Pick, made the first release. It was on an XT with two half high 10mb drives, and two half high 5 1/4" floppies. It was quite a long time after the PC was out before Pick started to port to it, due to his licencee structure. I also recieved the first copy ever delivered for revenue, s/n 44, which I paid for the first day the announcement came out they would ship the OS. With a friend, John Bohner, we collect all things Pick, so if anyone has any old moldy versions of any version of Pick (Prime recently came up, not a mention that more Pick Prime systems were shipped than Prime OSs), please contact me for proper disposal. Jim From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu May 5 19:20:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:20:41 -0400 Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427AB859.nailFH31EVJTK@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > One of my VCR's has a load of LED 7 segment displays My family's first VCR had a mechanical timer (not too much different than an alarm clock) and a knob-tuner (obviously using the same tuner mechanism as knob-tuned TV's) for selecting the channel. No, it wasn't one of the very first, it was just a cheap low-end model from a few years later! Tim. From lcourtney at mvista.com Thu May 5 19:20:57 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:20:57 -0700 Subject: HP 21mx on epay In-Reply-To: <427AA3D7.25D93DCE@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: Nice. This could be a really nice system, or a huge boat anchor. This looks a lot like a development system we'd have in the RTE Lab in the late 70s/early 80s. 7925s were 120MB removeable packs, 7920s were 100MB(IIRC). Across a string of several drives I remember 7925s having fairly frequent head crashes - maybe on the order of one every 6 months or so. Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim stephens > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 3:53 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: HP 21mx on epay > > > in penciltucky (aka Marietta, Pa) too far for me > > from the auction description: > Model 21MX E series > The price is for the lot. > Includes > 2 ea Model 7970E digital tape units, > 1600 CPI read after write; > General Electric TermiNet 340 pin feed printer; > 3 ea Model 7920 disk drives; > 6 ea Model 7925 disk drives > > here's the auction in case you can't get the following to play as a > link 5193795534 > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5193795534&ssPa geName=ADME:B:EF:US:1 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 5 19:36:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 17:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 21mx on epay Message-ID: <200505060036.RAA14671@clulw009.amd.com> Hi It even has the battery bypass jumper plug. I don't see any cables though. I wish I had the space and some cheap way to transport this. Dwight >From: "jim stephens" > >in penciltucky (aka Marietta, Pa) too far for me > >from the auction description: >Model 21MX E series >The price is for the lot. >Includes >2 ea Model 7970E digital tape units, >1600 CPI read after write; >General Electric TermiNet 340 pin feed printer; >3 ea Model 7920 disk drives; >6 ea Model 7925 disk drives > >here's the auction in case you can't get the following to play as a >link 5193795534 > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5193795534&ssPageName=ADME:B :EF:US:1 > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 5 19:45:43 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 01:45:43 +0100 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > In the early 90's, I was a huge fan of ESDI drives. The largest > I ever dealt with were 1.3 Gig Hitachi's. /Wow!/ > The larger-capacity drives generally had higher data rates and most > WD-based PC-clone controllers couldn't handle them. I think the largest > were targetted towards ESDI-based RAID arrays. They were built like > Bentley's - solid! Oh, absolutely. > The ESDI interface was sort-of like a slightly scaled down SMD interface. SMD? -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 5 19:48:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:48:00 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <0IG1009D1M7ANSB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... > From: Paul Koning > Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 18:38:52 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: > > Allison> Ive found anything .0 is suspect and the latest and greatest > Allison> HD of the max size is susceptable. > >We've found that this is not necessarily true. > >Also, I don't think you can ever buy anything else. Drive generations >follow one another very quickly, and manufacturers only sell the >latest generation, whatever that is any particular quarter. A smaller >than max size drive is either the max size of the previous generation, >or simply a drive with fewer platters and heads than the max currently >available. Well I"ve had too many bad experiences. I was sole IT for a small company for 5 years and down time was not a condition that was acceptable. So when the latest and greatest came out I was 6 months to a years behind it. Getting drives one or even three generatiosn back as NOS was not a problem. That was easy is that by 6 months to a year you were hearing what was problematic or unusually good. Also by then I could get a better price and our needs never grew as fast as they new tech could produce so space was always in excess. Notable really bad drives. St251 40mb runs hot, dies early. Wren 3.5" half height. Had 6 given to me working all died within a year save one. Various Prodrives, up and down QA. various Segate IDE, up and down QA. If it was good after a year it would likely last well past the time it was too small. WD during the time of the 300-500mb drives, good drive design, bad QC. Those that failed were early life those that didn't corak early still work. Segate 3.2gb IDE first version, really bad 80% failure in 90 days. Whole lot returned for -A version. Maxtor 9gb scsi, failure rate 50% per year, sample 16 drives in use and warrenty replacements for not less than 4 every 6 months. After two years ALL 16 replaced with seagate 37GB no failures at 1.5 years. Noteably good drives: St225 I have a bunch and they are workhorse. Quantum D540 31mb I have 14 of them all with 5+ YEARS runtime all still running. Maxtor 2190 (mfm 153mb aka RD54). Fujitsu 500mb IDE Toshiba 500mb 2.5" IDE, unbreakable. Various Segate 3.2GB 32011A was good, non A was bad. WD 4.3GB IDE a time tested winner. cheap too. Seagate 2600020A 60GB IDE, put 20 in service and All still running at 2years in business desktop use. DEC RZ55 680mb 5" full height scsi. Ihave 14 of them in use that were pulls and still work fine after years of use. Seagate 1gb SCSI Segate Baracudas 1gb -> 4.3 noisy but reliable. Plenty of others as well. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 20:00:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505051030.26167.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 05 May 2005 02:34, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 5 May 2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: > > > > Kevin wrote: > > > > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I > > > > > can't seem to find a definitive answer on the net. > > > > > > > > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were > > > > several other operating systems. > > > > > > Do you know what the popular choice was? > > > > What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. > > I think you mean Xinu. No, I really meant OS/360, because we all know it was the most popular OS for the original IBM PC, just after PC-DOS 1.00. But this is just speculation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 20:11:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Tony Eros wrote: > >> What, are you serious? Ok, it was Multics. > > >I think you mean Xinu. > > You mean the ancient evil alien responsible for all the ills of mankind, > from whom only the enlightenment that comes with expensive Scientology > training can protect us? No, wait -- that's Xenu... > > My bad. You're not supposed to know that until at least level 15 (and a quarter million dollars later). The next knock on your door will be the Scientology storm troopers. Resistance is futile. P.S. No apologies to any followers of El Ron Hubbardism. Thrrt. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 5 20:16:40 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 02:16:40 +0100 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0505051816cdd2399@mail.gmail.com> On 5/5/05, John A. Dundas III wrote: > Are ESDI drives compatible with ST506 controllers? > > Are MFM drives compatible with ESDI controllers? No. TTBOMK, the tecnological progression went: Generation 1: ST-506 G2: RLL (which was just ST-506 with different encoding giving about 25% greater capacity; drives *could* be exchanged but weren't rated or guaranteed at the higher capacity and might work, might not, or might work for a while then fail) G3: ESDI (higher capacities, greater transfer rates, slightly more intelligence on the drive and less in the controller) G4: IDE (all controller logic is embedden in the drive, which attaches straight onto the PC ISA AT bus, thus the name AT Attachment or ATA; first change of cabling, from one shared control cable for each pair of drives plus two data cables) (Next came the ATA Packet Interface, allowing non-HD devices to be attached, primarily optical drives - CD-ROMs etc. - but also Zip & Jaz type removable drives, tape drives and so on) G5: EIDE (unsure of the exact technical difference, but I think it's the addition of Logical Block Addressing - LBA - in place of simple Cylinder:Head:Sector (CHS) addressing) G6: UltraIDE (doubled the nunber of conductors in the cable to 80 to reduce crosstalk, allowing doubling of the transfer speed to 16Mb/sec; AKA UltraDMA and other names) G7: UltraDMA/33 (another doubling) G8: UltraDMA/66 (and another) G9: UltraDMA/100 (running out of headroom now) G10: UltraDMA/133 G9: SATA, Serial ATA. Another change of cabling, to serial cables, one per drive; no more sharing, no more master/slave assignments or jumper settings. SATA 1 ran at a nominal 150Mb/s but initial drive mechanisms couldn't deliver data off disk that fast, so it was no faster than UltraDMA/133. However, now we're heading towards... G10: SATA2. I can't recall the speeds offhand but it's more than doubled, I think. Of course, in the same timeframe, SCSI has been doing its own thing, more than keeping pace overall. Then there's Fibre Channel, and in the olden days there was Xilinx and other systems... -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 20:14:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: He who dies with the most toys... Message-ID: Um, Paul Allen wins: http://www.monogon.org/other/Octopus.ppt -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 20:18:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <200505052131.OAA14588@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I just talked with Tix ( owner of the site ) and he <...> > I think that his intentions are good. I've met Tix in person and have communicated with him through e-mail a couple times. He's a very nice guy. It is certainly not his intention to rip off other people's photos without credit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 20:19:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050505145351.P11751@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > That's a pretty good list. But it has some errors, including some > important dates that aren't accurate (the EXACT date of 5.00 is > significant in MS-DOS history), and some poor choices of what the Oh yeah? Why so? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 5 20:44:38 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:44:38 -0500 Subject: HP 21mx on epay References: <427AA3D7.25D93DCE@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <031d01c551dd$2c6c8960$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > from the auction description: > Model 21MX E series > The price is for the lot. > Includes > 2 ea Model 7970E digital tape units, > 1600 CPI read after write; > General Electric TermiNet 340 pin feed printer; > 3 ea Model 7920 disk drives; > 6 ea Model 7925 disk drives Yeah, I want this stuff. I was going to put in a bid last night till I saw who was already bidding. Shame, as I have another system in that area waiting for me to pick up. All I want is a 7920/25 or two. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 5 20:53:16 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:53:16 -0500 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net> <427AB86E.9B26F49B@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... >> D'ya mean that PICK was NOT the most popular OS??? Acutally, pick was extremely popular. People just didn't know it because of the licensing paradigm that Dick used. Each licensee called it something totally different. Universe, Unidata, Prime Information, R83, Zebra/Pick, Reality, Mentor, UltimateOS, Revelation, R91, Pick, Advanced Pick, Sequel, etc. etc. There was at least 30 different ones. Most folks loyal to one didn't know it by any of the other names. Anheuser-Busch ran virtually all dataprocessing, both corporate and at the breweries, on pick. Fidelity Investments used it for a majority of their operations too. And on and on... Those who aren't up on Pick BASIC would be quite suprised by it. It was clearly basic, but virtually everything people didn't like about "other" basics, wasn't applicable to Pick BASIC. And file I/O was SUCH a dream. I have never, ever - bar ANY programming environment, where the programming interface to the database was so natural. > For what it's worth I own the original Pick PC, on which the three > developers that worked for Pick, made the first release. I don't own the original Pick PC. But I do have an original distribution of "Pick on the PC/XT", the first release, personally handed to my by Dick. Should have had him autograph it. In the same binder as the OS distribution, I acquired a copy of the ASSEMBLER account - something they tried not to make available. In the collection I have a PC/XT (running pick), a Microdata M2000, a GA Zebra 1750, a GA Zebra 2820, and an HP D220 running Universe. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 5 21:00:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:00:28 -0500 Subject: search broken? References: <200505042258.j44MwZie008859@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <032901c551df$60cf1c70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > Ok, it's meta-OT, but: if I search for "adrian" or "witchy" in the > cctalk archives, I get no hits. Nor do I get hits for anything else > I try. Unless it's personal, I'd say htdig has done on the classiccmp > server what it likes to do on mine: malfunction occasionally. It's not broken, it's dysfunctional. The way that htdig was integrated into mailman (not by me), is that is reindexes everything in the entire archive every night. That's rather silly, but not nearly trivial to change, due to the way it's integrated into mailman. I simply haven't had time to mess with anything the past week or two, work has decided to pretty much monopolize my waking moments. It'll pass. The search function doesn't work while htdig is rebuilding the indexes. The index build starts every night at midnight, and doesn't finish till about 4pm or so. As a result, the search function generally only works from about 4pm till midnight, CST. I will get around to fixing it sometime, in the not TOO terribly distant future. Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 21:01:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "May 5, 5 08:53:16 pm" Message-ID: <200505060201.TAA16436@floodgap.com> > I don't own the original Pick PC. But I do have an original distribution of > "Pick on the PC/XT", the first release, personally handed to my by Dick. > Should have had him autograph it. In the same binder as the OS distribution, > I acquired a copy of the ASSEMBLER account - something they tried not to > make available. I've always wanted to see what Pick assembly looked like. Is there a reference anywhere? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 21:10:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "May 5, 5 06:18:48 pm" Message-ID: <200505060210.TAA16614@floodgap.com> > > I just talked with Tix ( owner of the site ) and he > <...> > > I think that his intentions are good. > > I've met Tix in person and have communicated with him through e-mail a > couple times. He's a very nice guy. It is certainly not his intention to > rip off other people's photos without credit. I'm sure he's indeed a very nice guy, but whether it was his intention or not, he *did* do it. I don't see any credit on the images I know were taken from SWoC, and unlike the case wth Bryan B, he didn't even bother linking back. I put up my image use policy on each page, and as a condition I request that clearance be obtained both from me and the original submitter. He may have asked Dan to use the image, but he certainly didn't credit him, and I know he didn't credit or ask me. I get plenty of image use requests, so it's not as if the policy is opaque or ill-advertised. Whatever his intentions are, his actions are strictly parasitic and should not be encouraged. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 21:17:47 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <200505060210.TAA16614@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 5, 5 07:10:11 pm" Message-ID: <200505060217.TAA09360@floodgap.com> Dwight's message finally arrived (must be something with my backup mail host). I guess it's an issue of him not thoroughly checking his sources. I'll ask him to fix the issue with the SWoC images and see what he says. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not enough to be Hungarian. You must have talent too. -- Alex Korda --- From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 5 21:18:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:18:38 -0400 Subject: Minitrons, was Re: Seven Segment Displays References: <4279988A.61B2DB78@rain.org> <00b401c5518c$5bec20c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <007c01c551e1$eafd08b0$0100a8c0@screamer> How many do you have?? As I recall, your not too far from me, and interested in an Apollo system. I might entertain a rather absurd trade if your interested. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Minitrons, was Re: Seven Segment Displays >> The pricing I've seen ranged from about $7.00 to $44.00 each >> used and tested but so far, I haven't seen any prices for NOS >> parts. I do like the $100.00 per digit though :). > > Let it be known that I have some NOS minitrons*, > for the truly desperate. > > I used some back in ~1970 and was able to find a bunch > more just a few years ago, that are still unused. > Archer catalog #276-051, for reference, 100,000 hours > stated lifespan. > > John A. > *I was going to say 'evacuated DIP's but that has a wrong sound to it . > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 21:21:13 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 03:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <20050506022113.87504.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I've been told (during military service) that the dv/dt > of an EMP is so fast a Faraday cage will saturate and the > eddy currents are so strong it re-launches an EM wave > inside the cage. Not quite. What happens is that the surfaces parallel to the incident wave behave as capacitance and the surfaces perpendicular to the incident wave behave as indictors. The initial pulse sets this LC circuit resonating much like a struck bell and creates it's own internal EM field as the energy dissipates in the resistance. This can be effectively damped by placing low value resistors, 50 to 100 ohms, across surfaces to reduce the Q of the shield and absorb the energy. Similar damping Rs are used in high power Tx equipment to stop parasitic resonance in structural parts. It's not uncommon to see a couple of 700W 68ohm resistors bolted to the anode boiler of an HF output tube. Without them the boiler suffers greatly from burnt supports and melted bolts. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu May 5 21:21:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:21:56 -0500 Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 References: <200505060201.TAA16436@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <035d01c551e2$60670470$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Cameron wrote... > I've always wanted to see what Pick assembly looked like. Is there a > reference > anywhere? I could pull up some of my old code for you if you want. Pick Assembler is quite difficult. Not because of the instruction set (although the instruction set is only 1/2 the issue), but because there was no protection among modes, and all the conventions were completely undocumented. You could read the assembler manual cover to cover and understand it thoroughly, and still only write code that was pretty much guaranteed to crash the machine every run. In addition, the instruction set was created before the hardware was even selected. As a result, the instruction set is very highly tied in to the data formats on disk. So unless you understand the internal formats and structures used for data storage, again - the assembler would seem meaningless - or, well, odd at the least. That all being said though, it was the most enjoyable instruction set I ever worked with. Since it was so thoroughly undocumented, even in the released manuals, there weren't a ton of people that knew it well. That's why folks like me worked on contract for several of the Pick licensees developing the OS. Too hard to find and hire enough people in-house that knew it. But once the lightbulb goes off in your head when you get the whole picture, it's an incredibly neat environment. Jay West From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 21:40:42 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 19:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <035d01c551e2$60670470$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "May 5, 5 09:21:56 pm" Message-ID: <200505060240.TAA13630@floodgap.com> > Cameron wrote... > > I've always wanted to see what Pick assembly looked like. Is there a > > reference anywhere? > > I could pull up some of my old code for you if you want. Pick Assembler is > quite difficult. Not because of the instruction set (although the > instruction set is only 1/2 the issue), but because there was no protection > among modes, and all the conventions were completely undocumented. Sounds deliciously challenging. Gimme. :) (Seriously, yes, I would be interested in some of your examples, mostly just to get a feel for what it could do internally. I had a Pick PC at one stage but it suffered a hard disk crash and we weren't able to recover it, since we were just fooling around with it -- something that came in a lot with other stuff we were playing with. I'd been curious about it ever since.) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The Internet is, once again, your friend" (I wrote this *before* PacBell!) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 5 21:58:34 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505060240.TAA13630@floodgap.com> References: <200505060240.TAA13630@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200505060302.XAA15651@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I've always wanted to see what Pick assembly looked like. [...] >> I could pull up some of my old code for you if you want. Pick >> Assembler is quite difficult. Not because [...], but [...]. > Sounds deliciously challenging. Gimme. :) > (Seriously, yes, I would be interested in some of your examples, > mostly just to get a feel for what it could do internally. [...]) And an AOL to all of that from me. I love unusual programming paradigms. (Not necessarily unusual programming _languages_, like (say) befunge. That's just an obfuscated representation of a relatively straightforward machine. I'm talking about things like INTERCAL (its flow control constructs and unary boolean operators are the first two things that come to mind) or Icon (generators, coroutines, etc), Lisp (too many things to list), Prolog (still don't really have my head around its paradigm).... Sounds as though Pick assembly would be a worthy item for the list. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Thu May 5 22:17:57 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:17:57 -0700 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <427AE1E5.7070106@ix.netcom.com> Joe wrote: > It's not just high density. The newest maxtors DO suck! So do the latest > Seagates. For the ones of you that didn't know it, Glen Goodwin operates a > computer repair shop and has had LOTS of experience with this. I talked to > him about this and he recommended buying an IBM drive made by Fujitsu. I > bought one and have had NO trouble with it (knock on wood!). All of the > Seagates and Maxtors that I've tried in the last few years have failed > within six months. > > Joe The Pleasanton schoold distict bought a batch of systems with Fujitsu drives in them They started failing in such large numbers that the district bought enough spares to replace every one. Each school has somebody trained to do the swap. Last time I talked to one of their techs, they had replaced more than half of them and still had several failures a week. Failure was typically after several months of use. Because of summer shut down, many failured right after the warrenty ran out (beginning of 2nd year). Fujitsu won't replace them. The district now has standing orders to never buy another Fujitsu HD. I've replaced a lot of drives around the house and in old Apple systems. But I don't recall ever replacing anything less than 5 years old regardless of brand. Maybe I'm just lucky, or live right. Billy From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 5 22:49:36 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't think C came out until after the AT. On Thu, 5 May 2005, [iso-8859-15] Bj?rn wrote: > IBM C 3.0 came just before OS/2 1.0 as far as I'm able to recall. The The first IBM (MS) C compiler ("3.0"?) was purchased from Lattice. > first PC C compiler I used was odd - it did not have the standard function > library, everything was slightly different. I think that would have been > shortly after the XT was launched. ALthough it was NOT the "first" one, I kinda liked DeSmet C. I still use it (now called "Personal C Compiler") to introduce my students to the concept of a command line compiler. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu May 5 22:58:32 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 6 May 05 03:58:32 GMT Subject: XT 5160 Message-ID: <0505060358.AA05250@ivan.Harhan.ORG> woodelf wrote: > Well I don't consider BASIC a programing langauge ... I consider it a > curse on mankind. Oooooooooh - we think alike! MS From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu May 5 23:12:40 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:12:40 -0700 Subject: OT: He who dies with the most toys... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505052112.40126.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 05 May 2005 18:14, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Um, Paul Allen wins: > > http://www.monogon.org/other/Octopus.ppt You can't take it with you... ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim at jkearney.com Thu May 5 23:16:07 2005 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:16:07 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what's happened to Jim Kearney? References: Message-ID: <008601c551f2$53b82640$6401a8c0@jkearney.com> > The last I bumped into him was at VCF East 2.0 last July so this is a bit > alarming. Don't be alarmed, I've just been busy as all get out in a start-up job, and it looks like my touchy anti-spam filter has been bit-bucketing Joe's mail. Since VCF East I've managed to acquire a couple of interesting vintage devices, though I haven't had much time to play with them, including a KTM-2 (the Synertek SYM-1 terminal), an ELI Mini-Micro-Designer (8080 trainer), and some spares for my PDP/8. I unfortunately lack any kind of mass storage for the PDP, so I've been putting together the VHDL to emulate a set of RX8E/RX02 and RK8E/RK05 drives on an SD memory card. - Jim From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 5 17:13:38 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 00:13:38 +0200 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050505155324.77914.qmail@web81404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050505155324.77914.qmail@web81404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 05 May 2005 17:53:24 +0200, Erik Klein wrote: > > PC-DOS 3.30 was released simultaneously with the PS/2s, and added support > for 1.4M drives. It was also the first version with full NLS, very important for non-English laguage support. ... > > NOTE: 1.25, 2.11, and 3.31 were only available as MS-DOS, NOT PC-DOS. Not quite - IBM supplied CSDs (patches) bringing PC-DOS to 2.11 and 3.31. -- -bv From korpela at gmail.com Thu May 5 18:05:09 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:05:09 -0700 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 5/5/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > And that being said, IBM/Hitachi > drives are the only drives I've never had fail on me. I've had some bad experiences with drives from many manufacturers, including IBM/Hitachi. The problem in the IBM/Hitachi case was that upgrading to Windows 2000 on a ThinkPad would often overwrite "protected" cylinders containing drive configuration info. It was a case of "upgrade windows"=="lose your drive". Since these cylinders never did exist according to the controller, it wasn't fixable by mere mortals even with a swap of the drive controller boards. I've also had drives go simultaneously in RAID 1 configurations, which also leads me to believe that it was a bad command to the drive that did it. In that case it was fixable by a controller swap from drive that died from a mechanical failure. The whole business of putting drive configuration info in modifiable memory has bitten me more than once. I would guess that more than half of the recent vintage dead drives I have seen with "controller failures" have been physically and electronically fine, but with overwritten flash or on-disk configuration info. From korpela at gmail.com Thu May 5 18:05:09 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:05:09 -0700 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4279C509.7080405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 5/5/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > And that being said, IBM/Hitachi > drives are the only drives I've never had fail on me. I've had some bad experiences with drives from many manufacturers, including IBM/Hitachi. The problem in the IBM/Hitachi case was that upgrading to Windows 2000 on a ThinkPad would often overwrite "protected" cylinders containing drive configuration info. It was a case of "upgrade windows"=="lose your drive". Since these cylinders never did exist according to the controller, it wasn't fixable by mere mortals even with a swap of the drive controller boards. I've also had drives go simultaneously in RAID 1 configurations, which also leads me to believe that it was a bad command to the drive that did it. In that case it was fixable by a controller swap from drive that died from a mechanical failure. The whole business of putting drive configuration info in modifiable memory has bitten me more than once. I would guess that more than half of the recent vintage dead drives I have seen with "controller failures" have been physically and electronically fine, but with overwritten flash or on-disk configuration info. From gtn at rbii.com Thu May 5 19:15:58 2005 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:15:58 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <43e1f9654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <43e1f9654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On May 4, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I swear by Maxtors, but I always buy drives from the middle of the > model > range. About 3 years ago we bought about 40 Maxtor 20GB drives... about 100% failure rate within 2 years, 60% within a year. I've not touched one since. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 5 22:47:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 Message-ID: <20050506034702.B2C9870C677A@bitsavers.org> >>> I've always wanted to see what Pick assembly looked like. http://www.bitsavers.org/microdata/771009A_REALITYasmRef_May76.pdf From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 5 23:07:40 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 00:07:40 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 lives Message-ID: <01C551CF.BEF2F200@H77.C223.tor.velocet.net> If I duplicated a message to cctech, my apologies; what I meant to send was: I just confirmed that my recollection was correct and that the AIM65's TTY I/O is effectively RS-232 compatible. I connected an AIM65 to 3 different computers and they all communicated just as is, i.e. without any level conversion. Needless to say this assumes that the distance is fairly short. Just connect ground, J1-Y and J1-U to RS-232 ground, TX data & RX data respectively and if your RS-232 port is like mine, away you go. If you have trouble with autobaud, set the baud rate manually at A417/18 before switching to TTY. (Set the terminal/computer to 7 bits). Unfortunately the KIM-1 doesn't seem to have an RS-232 compatible serial input, so you'll have to add a limiting resistor & two clamping diodes and connect to U15-12 as the AIM does. mike From Tim at rikers.org Thu May 5 23:50:54 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:50:54 -0500 Subject: search broken? In-Reply-To: <032901c551df$60cf1c70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200505042258.j44MwZie008859@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <032901c551df$60cf1c70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <427AF7AE.3050308@Rikers.org> Jay West wrote: > The search function doesn't work while htdig is rebuilding the indexes. > The index build starts every night at midnight, and doesn't finish till > about 4pm or so. As a result, the search function generally only works > from about 4pm till midnight, CST. My simple fix for this is to re-index in a different directory and then copy the files over when complete. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at rikers.org Thu May 5 23:55:06 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:55:06 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200505051709.17330.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505051709.17330.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <427AF8AA.2020206@Rikers.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Personally, I first learned to write programs in BASIC on Apple ][e's > when I was in grade school. Oh, another nitmick opportunity. it's a ][, ][+, //e, //c there is no ][e =) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 5 23:55:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 21:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site - may not be??? In-Reply-To: <200505060210.TAA16614@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I just talked with Tix ( owner of the site ) and he > > <...> > > > I think that his intentions are good. > > > > I've met Tix in person and have communicated with him through e-mail a > > couple times. He's a very nice guy. It is certainly not his intention to > > rip off other people's photos without credit. > > I'm sure he's indeed a very nice guy, but whether it was his intention or > not, he *did* do it. I don't see any credit on the images I know were taken > from SWoC, and unlike the case wth Bryan B, he didn't even bother linking > back. But he's not personally doing it himself. His users create the database and upload images as new computers are added. To build your collection online, you pick & choose the computers from those already entered into the database and add them to your own collection. If you own a machine that's not in the database, you have the option to create the entry and then upload a photo to go along with it. Folks who've been uploading photographs have not been exercising proper courtesy. Tix hasn't done a good job monitoring his site. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 5 23:53:50 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 22:53:50 -0600 Subject: Seven Segment Displays (but in avionics) In-Reply-To: <427A8804.97713C9B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0IG000GY0UW81G44@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <427A8804.97713C9B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <427AF85E.2090009@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: >Allison wrote: > > >>ARC 400 series. However, the ones they need have to have TSO offically >>or they are considered bootleg. Thats why they are rare and expensive. >> >> > >Thanks, googled and found a picture that matches the layout of what I have, >labeling associated with the picture was ambiguous, but I think it's the ARC 400 DME unit. > >(http://www.barronthomas.com/21081t.htm, 3rd unit down in avionics stack, >deep-red displays showing 118 and 108) > > > > >>Line breaks every 80 or so chars would help. >> >> >...hmmm, figured everything would auto-wrap by this day ... >80 column limits: now that's vintage/legacy computing. > > > No 72 column limit for the people that surf the web with a TTY. From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 6 00:05:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: He who dies with the most toys... In-Reply-To: <200505052112.40126.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 05 May 2005 18:14, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Um, Paul Allen wins: > > > > http://www.monogon.org/other/Octopus.ppt > > You can't take it with you... ;-) When you have as much money as Paul Allen, I think you can choose not to go ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri May 6 01:39:56 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:39:56 +0800 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <20050506022113.87504.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050506022113.87504.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/6/05, lee davison wrote: > uncommon to see a couple of 700W 68ohm resistors bolted to Wow! That is a mother of a resistor! :-) Must be one of those aluminum clad ones? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 6 02:02:53 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 08:02:53 +0100 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <43e1f9654d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <703fae664d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > On May 4, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > I swear by Maxtors, but I always buy drives from the middle of the > > model > > range. > > About 3 years ago we bought about 40 Maxtor 20GB drives... about 100% > failure rate within 2 years, 60% within a year. I've not touched one > since. Eek. That's nasty... Might see if WD have recovered from their quality "issues" (the Caviar series were pretty dire IIRC). Or Seagate for that matter - I had pretty bad luck with the 1GB->4GB Medalists, but the 6GB Medalist and 4GB U4 aren't too bad. The 5-year warranty is a plus, too (though if you have to jump through burning hoops to get an RMA number...) Probably helps that the D740X series were effectively Quantum drives - mine looks like a Quantum, right down to the type and positioning of the label (it's silkscreened onto the drive casing in black ink - Maxtor use a white paper label). The only thing that seems to differ from a Quantum is the fact that it's got Maxtor's logo on it. 'Tis a very nice drive. I've got a 20GB D740X in the cupboard too, waiting for a use (ran Powermax on it, passed the selftests - notbad for a hamfest find) :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Hailing frequencies open Mr. Worf. - Hi, this is Steve Wright on 1 FM. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 6 03:01:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 04:01:41 -0400 Subject: All things ESDI In-Reply-To: <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > [ESDI drives] > > I think I handled a 600 in a Novell server once. > > In the early 90's, I was a huge fan of ESDI drives. The largest > I ever dealt with were 1.3 Gig Hitachi's. > > The larger-capacity drives generally had higher data rates and most > WD-based PC-clone controllers couldn't handle them. I think the largest > were targetted towards ESDI-based RAID arrays. They were built like > Bentley's - solid! I have a pair of 1.2GB ESDI drives attached to an ESDI<->SDI board that's presently hooked to my VAX 8300. Much lighter and much less power hungry than five or six RA81s. :-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 6 03:10:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 04:10:38 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/05, Liam Proven wrote: > > The ESDI interface was sort-of like a slightly scaled down SMD interface. > > SMD? SMD was another drive interface of 20-something years ago.... rather than a 34-pin digital controller cable and a 20-pin analog one-per-drive cable, it used a 60-pin digital cable and a 26-pin one-per-drive analog cable. Among the more famous SMD devices in DEC world were the CDC 9762, 9766, and Fujitsu Eagle and Super Eagle. SMD drives were routinely in the 14" to 8" range, going from dozens to hundreds of megabytes, with some later ones in the 5.25" size. I do not know if all of the 5.25" devices were SMD-E or not (newer version of the interface for faster drives). Perhaps someone could chime in about that. ISTR there were Qbus controllers for SMD-E as well as SMD. DEC didn't officially support SMD (there were some SMD-like interfaces embedded in some of DECs drive lines like the RB80 or the RM03, but they weren't entirely compatible with true SMD, and they weren't meant to be fiddled with by the end users), but there _were_ 3rd party true SMD disk controllers by Emulex, Dilog, and others. I have a few Systems Industries SI9900s that were SMD to the drives, and proprietary SI interface to an SI host card for Qbus or Massbus (perhaps Unibus, too; but I've never seen that interface). While they aren't the only drives in town, I have yet to see an S9900 that does not have a Fuji Eagle attached. They used to be a good value and quite robust (and around 400MB!) SMD drives were uncommon for PC-class hardware, but were quite common for minicomputers, especially in the PDP-11 and VAX worlds where people didn't want to pay DEC's prices for DEC's disks. -ethan From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri May 6 04:15:15 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:15:15 +0200 (MEST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I don't think C came out until after the AT. > On Thu, 5 May 2005, [iso-8859-15] Bj?rn wrote: > > IBM C 3.0 came just before OS/2 1.0 as far as I'm able to recall. The > > The first IBM (MS) C compiler ("3.0"?) was purchased from Lattice. > > > first PC C compiler I used was odd - it did not have the standard function > > library, everything was slightly different. I think that would have been > > shortly after the XT was launched. > > ALthough it was NOT the "first" one, I kinda liked DeSmet C. I still use > it (now called "Personal C Compiler") to introduce my students to the > concept of a command line compiler. I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was around ~84 or so.. --f From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 6 05:56:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:56:34 -0400 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/6/05, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, > called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" > setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was > around ~84 or so.. I remember them in the 1986-1990 timeframe with their Amiga product. They were competing with Lattice (later SAS) C. I personally went with Lattice for several reasons, none of which I can recall right now. I do remember that Manx did embedded assembly just different enough from Lattice that it was not trivial to port from one to the other. Makefiles were different, too. I'm not saying which one was 'better' or 'more like the Unix environment', but from my experiences with Lattice, it was not hard to port stuff from comp.sources.games, etc, once one got past differences between the Unix environment and the Amiga environment vis-a-vis real VT100s vs text mode consoles, etc., but that wasn't a problem with the C compiler. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 6 06:57:23 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 07:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 21mx on epay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2005, Lee Courtney wrote: > This looks a lot like a development system we'd have in the RTE Lab in the > late 70s/early 80s. 7925s were 120MB removeable packs, 7920s were > 100MB(IIRC). Across a string of several drives I remember 7925s having > fairly frequent head crashes - maybe on the order of one every 6 months or > so. The 7920s were 50Mb. The head crashes had a lot to do with how clean your computer room was. I used to work for a company doing 3rd party maintenance on HP3000 systems. We had a couple of customers who installed a humidifier in their computer room, unfortunately the type that left a fine white powder residue. I ended up replacing multiple heads in the 7925s and practically disassembling them to clean them up. The white powder goes straight through the foam filters. As I recall, the usual cause of head failure on the 7920s and 7925s was one of the wires to the head breaking. They could be replaced and aligned without too much pain, with an alignment pack and a scope. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 6 07:26:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:26:45 -0400 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment References: <20050506022113.87504.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17019.25221.648000.483129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: Wai-Sun> On 5/6/05, lee davison wrote: >> uncommon to see a couple of 700W 68ohm resistors bolted to Wai-Sun> Wow! That is a mother of a resistor! :-) Must be one of Wai-Sun> those aluminum clad ones? No, not in a transmitter. More likely they are the carborundum high power noninductive resistors (made by what used to be Carborundum Co in Niagara Falls -- now Kalthan or some similar name). If you need a kilowatt dummy load, they are the people to see. paul From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 6 07:28:20 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:28:20 +0100 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0505060528221b87cb@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > SMD was another drive interface of 20-something years ago.... > SMD drives were uncommon for PC-class hardware, but were quite common > for minicomputers, especially in the PDP-11 and VAX worlds where > people didn't want to pay DEC's prices for DEC's disks. OIC. TFTI! That explains why I'd not met them, then - I went straight from 1980s 8-bit home micros to Macs & x86 PCs. Aside from a little fiddling with Amigas, STs, QLs & Acorn RISC machines, plus the odd Sun, I know little of any earlier hardware. I can drive a VAX but not build one. :?( -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 6 07:39:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 06:39:57 -0600 Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment In-Reply-To: <17019.25221.648000.483129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050506022113.87504.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <17019.25221.648000.483129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <427B659D.5000508@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >No, not in a transmitter. More likely they are the carborundum high >power noninductive resistors (made by what used to be Carborundum Co >in Niagara Falls -- now Kalthan or some similar name). If you need a >kilowatt dummy load, they are the people to see. > > > That could be several people here who need test the BIG power supplies for the BIG Iron. > paul > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 6 07:39:08 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 07:39:08 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072028.05306d08@mail> At 04:15 AM 5/6/2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, >called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" >setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was >around ~84 or so.. Nitpick: Manx Software was the company, "Aztec C" was the product, but it often became "Manx C" in conversation. I think they closed up shop in the mid 90s. At 05:56 AM 5/6/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I remember them in the 1986-1990 timeframe with their Amiga product. >They were competing with Lattice (later SAS) C. I personally went >with Lattice for several reasons, none of which I can recall right >now. I do remember that Manx did embedded assembly just different >enough from Lattice that it was not trivial to port from one to the >other. Makefiles were different, too. Back in the Amiga days, both Lattice and Manx were small enough that the guys who wrote the compilers would hang out at the developer conferences, so we all knew Jim Goodnow, the main brains behind their C compiler. Same for the original guys at Lattice and the later SAS team at Lattice. They were always showing off their latest features in order to entice developers to switch. Many developers owned Lattice because it was the first officially supported compiler. Jim was quick to come up with many features that outpaced Lattice. I remember Jim explaining how they got started with cross-compilation on a PDP-11, moving into the 6502 market with Apple II, and Z-80 undr CP/M, then to the 68000 market with Mac, Atari and Amiga, as well as a PC version. The first developer kits for Amiga included the Lattice PC-hosted cross compiler. Inside Amiga, there were also Sun and Stride hosted systems, too. I remember editing and compiling on a Compaq luggable, then sending my executables over the serial port. Compilation on one- or two-floppy Amiga systems was a real pain. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 6 08:05:56 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 08:05:56 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072049.05306930@mail> At 05:56 AM 5/6/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I remember them in the 1986-1990 timeframe with their Amiga product. >They were competing with Lattice (later SAS) C. I personally went >with Lattice for several reasons, none of which I can recall right >now. I do remember that Manx did embedded assembly just different >enough from Lattice that it was not trivial to port from one to the >other. Makefiles were different, too. Damn. Had a long historical anecdote composed, then Eudora crashed opening a piece of spam and all was lost. Yes, Manx Software's Axtec C was popular on the Amiga. Lattice C had the jump because they were the first officially recommended compiler. They were a bit less agile in the market, so Manx was able to steal away developers. Both compiler's developers would show up at the Amiga developer conferences, eager to show off their latest features. I remember Jim Goodnow of Manx telling me how they started with a PDP-11 cross-compiler to create their CP/M Z-80 (in October 1982) version. Was the Apple II 6502 version out before that? And then they went into the 68000 market with Mac, Atari and Amiga compilers, and they had a PC version of course, too. Inside Amiga itself, they started out with Sun and Stride hosted cross-compilers. The first developer kits included the Lattice PC cross-compiler. I remember editing and compiling on a Compaq luggable, then sending programs over the serial port to my Amiga 1000, which was something like serial number 36. Compiling on early Amigas was a real pain. It was many months before hard disks became available. The RAM disk that could survive a crash and warm reboot was a big help, too. I think Manx closed up in the early to mid 90s. Jim went on to help with REBOL. - John From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri May 6 08:32:05 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:32:05 +0200 (MEST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072028.05306d08@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 04:15 AM 5/6/2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, > >called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" > >setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was > >around ~84 or so.. > > Nitpick: Manx Software was the company, "Aztec C" was the product, > but it often became "Manx C" in conversation. I think they closed > up shop in the mid 90s. Yes, sorry. It was Aztec. Very neat little compiler. On more thought, it did NOT have a Make included, I believe I stole the one from Borland, or some PD make. > Back in the Amiga days, both Lattice and Manx were small enough > that the guys who wrote the compilers would hang out at the developer > conferences, so we all knew Jim Goodnow, the main brains behind > their C compiler. Same for the original guys at Lattice and > the later SAS team at Lattice. They were always showing off their > latest features in order to entice developers to switch. > > Many developers owned Lattice because it was the first officially > supported compiler. Jim was quick to come up with many features > that outpaced Lattice. > > I remember Jim explaining how they got started with cross-compilation > on a PDP-11, moving into the 6502 market with Apple II, and Z-80 > undr CP/M, then to the 68000 market with Mac, Atari and Amiga, > as well as a PC version. Gawd, I would love a copy of that compiler again, especially if they used the (more or less same) codebase for several backends, most of which I use ;-) --f From unibus at gmail.com Fri May 6 09:17:29 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 00:17:29 +1000 Subject: VK100 In-Reply-To: <200505042228.j44MS3oj002703@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505042228.j44MS3oj002703@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:49:42 -0400 > From: Dennis Boone > Subject: VK100 (gigi) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200505042149.j44LngE2007511 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Curiosity question: > > I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market for a > while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? Anyone have pointers to the manuals on the net. Regards, Garry From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 6 09:43:30 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:43:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: VK100 In-Reply-To: References: <200505042228.j44MS3oj002703@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <60353.135.196.233.27.1115390610.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> I've been idly watching for a GIGI to appear on the market for a >> while now. Are these things scarce like hens teeth? > > Anyone have pointers to the manuals on the net. I've got some GIGI manuals on my webserver somewhere if you get stuck. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 6 09:58:56 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:58:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC BA356 termpwr oddity Message-ID: <60693.135.196.233.27.1115391536.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi folks, I came across weirdness this morning with an 8-bit BA356 shelf and some TLZ09-VA tape drives....hopefully someone here has seen it before. Basically, said BA356 had an RZ disk of indeterminate size (I didn't look :) and 4 TLZ09s; the shelf has a BA35X-MG 8 bit personality module and is plugged into an Alpha 3000-300LX. All well and good. However, while the TLZ's could be seen at the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) VMS 6.2 was having none of it. On swapping one of the tape drives for another spare all of a sudden the whole shelf came to life and VMS was happy. The only difference between this last drive used and all the others was that this drive had the TERMPWR jumper installed (default config I thought) and so was providing TERMPWR to the backplane. Since the SCSI adapter in the 3000-300LX should have been providing this power and the personality module in the shelf provided termination why should this jumper make so much difference to the bus? It's not a length issue since I've duplicated the setup this afternoon using a DS10 and half metre cables. Also I thought too much TERMPWR was a Bad Thing. Interestingly, swapping the shelf for a blue UltraSCSI BA356 and using an Ultra personality module made the problem vanish and the drives were happy whether there was a TERMPWR jumper installed or not. Since these drives are destined for non-ultra environments do I have to crack them all open and fit the jumpers or is there something I'm missing? Ta! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 6 10:42:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 08:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Manx C (was Re: XT 5160) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I remember them in the 1986-1990 timeframe with their Amiga product. > They were competing with Lattice (later SAS) C. I personally went > with Lattice for several reasons, none of which I can recall right > now. I do remember that Manx did embedded assembly just different > enough from Lattice that it was not trivial to port from one to the > other. Makefiles were different, too. I have Manx C for the Apple ][. It was really made to be run from a hard drive. Long ago, I was developing a BBS and needed to convert the message editor that I'd written in BASIC to something much faster. I could've done it in machine language but that would've taken more time than I wanted to spend. I'd known about C and wanted to learn it, and so I thought this might be a good opportunity to do so: a practical project needing a solution. So I went about trying to teach myself C on Manx C. After my first "Hello World!" program took about 3 minutes to compile, involving multiple disk accesses across different volumes, I gave up and just used the Beagle Compiler to compile my BASIC program ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kth at srv.net Fri May 6 11:48:13 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:48:13 -0600 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427B9FCD.9000604@srv.net> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >Yes, sorry. It was Aztec. Very neat little compiler. On more >thought, it did NOT have a Make included, I believe I stole the >one from Borland, or some PD make. > > >Gawd, I would love a copy of that compiler again, especially if >they used the (more or less same) codebase for several backends, >most of which I use ;-) > >--f > > > Probaly not the version you are looking for, but: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/lang/lang.htm From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 6 11:36:45 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gavin Thomas Nicol" > > >On May 4, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I swear by Maxtors, but I always buy drives from the middle of the >> model >> range. > >About 3 years ago we bought about 40 Maxtor 20GB drives... about 100% >failure rate within 2 years, 60% within a year. I've not touched one >since. > > Hi Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. On, I think it was 2G drives, we had 100% failure in 2 weeks. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 6 11:46:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 11:46:16 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072028.05306d08@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506114550.05271e10@mail> At 08:32 AM 5/6/2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >Gawd, I would love a copy of that compiler again, especially if >they used the (more or less same) codebase for several backends, >most of which I use ;-) Which compiler on which platform and which target? - John From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 6 13:00:19 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:00:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: EMP and Equipment Message-ID: <20050506180019.92164.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Wow! That is a mother of a resistor! :-) > Must be one of those aluminum clad ones? The traditional type are coated glass tubes about 50mm in diameter. The newer type are some sort of sintered material and around 20mm in diameter. When the new type fail they just burn amd crumble, the older glass type would bubble and run like a small child's nose does. 8^)= Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 6 13:33:46 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:33:46 -0500 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. On, I think it was > 2G drives, we had 100% failure in 2 weeks. Because it's spelled "Micropolis"? sorry, couldn't resist. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From tomj at wps.com Fri May 6 13:50:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050506114057.I757@localhost> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > SMD drives were uncommon for PC-class hardware, but were quite common > for minicomputers, especially in the PDP-11 and VAX worlds where > people didn't want to pay DEC's prices for DEC's disks. I ran two different SMD drives and two different SMD controllers in the S100 world, both CP/M-80 and PDOS. 1979 - 1982 or so. Both the Konan two-board controller and some clever thing with a serial hardware state machine, single board. I could look it up, I still have the source to the driver printed out. Name had an X in it. Drives were some rack mount boat-anchor Fujitsu monstrosity (14"?) that never really worked right, and a BASF 6172 (8", voicecoil, 3 heads) spectaculary fast and spectacularly unreliable POS. The 4th surface was servo, it would get lost, the drive would go "wooooOOOOOP KLUNK" and you had to power it down and restart. Ugh. I always pictured the problem as the track register wrappign around and seeking to track fffffff instead of 0. Man I spent a lot of time on that drive with a scope. The x-named controller had some internal statemachine that you had to squirt microcode to; the microcode was provided as a printed table of bytes, unique to the drive, and provided by the manufacturer. If I recall the interface was peculiar but it worked. Programmed IO (INIR, Z80) I think; less performance, but reliable. The Konan was DMA, and you had to adjust buss timing on the CPU, memory, and Konan and it wasn't really possible to get all three reliably compatible all the time. That Konan controller had more jumpers than any other computer board I ever used! From tomj at wps.com Fri May 6 13:56:23 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050506115133.L757@localhost> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >> ALthough it was NOT the "first" one, I kinda liked DeSmet C. I still use >> it (now called "Personal C Compiler") to introduce my students to the >> concept of a command line compiler. > I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, > called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" > setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was > around ~84 or so.. Slightly OT, my hands-down favorite C compiler to this day is Leor Zolman's BDS C for CP/M-80. The fact it existed at all was wonderful. Its still an amazing piece of software if you ask me, a lot of functionality in a tiny package. No std library but that was easy to write. Flexible, open (you got M80 source to the libs and main() support), friendly (you could call Leor at home), cheap, reliable, made small binaries, true standalone no runtime crapola ala M$ basic compiler. It should be on a short list of historically significant software. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 6 13:55:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:55:12 -0600 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> References: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <427BBD90.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Riker wrote: >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >> Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. On, I think it was >>2G drives, we had 100% failure in 2 weeks. >> >> > >Because it's spelled "Micropolis"? > > > umm My-Crap-olis is the way I would spell that. :) >sorry, couldn't resist > > Speaking of old HD's don't forget many old drives had special drivers that hacked into DOS. So save the drivers and formating stuff and DOS now* before your HD fails. Ben alias woodelf * A good use for your paper take punch :) From kth at srv.net Fri May 6 16:12:15 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:12:15 -0600 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050506115133.L757@localhost> References: <20050506115133.L757@localhost> Message-ID: <427BDDAF.9020305@srv.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 6 May 2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >>> ALthough it was NOT the "first" one, I kinda liked DeSmet C. I >>> still use >>> it (now called "Personal C Compiler") to introduce my students to the >>> concept of a command line compiler. >> >> I remember using a very much UNIX-like C environment for DOS, >> called "Manx C". It was small, has the usual "make-cc-as-ld-ar" >> setup, and produced nice code. What happened to them? This was >> around ~84 or so.. > > > Slightly OT, my hands-down favorite C compiler to this day is Leor > Zolman's BDS C for CP/M-80. The fact it existed at all was > wonderful. Its still an amazing piece of software if you ask me, a > lot of functionality in a tiny package. No std library but that > was easy to write. Flexible, open (you got M80 source to the libs > and main() support), friendly (you could call Leor at home), > cheap, reliable, made small binaries, true standalone no runtime > crapola ala M$ basic compiler. > > It should be on a short list of historically significant software. > > BDS C official web page: http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html Now Open Source and Public Domain. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 6 16:29:25 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:29:25 -0700 Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <035d01c551e2$60670470$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200505060201.TAA16436@floodgap.com> <035d01c551e2$60670470$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <427BE1B5.1080905@deltasoft.com> > in-house that knew it. But once the lightbulb goes off in your head when > you get the whole picture, it's an incredibly neat environment. Have you seen OpenQM? It's a neat GPLed multi-valued system. It's default flavor is UniVerse I think. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 6 17:48:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:48:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Seven Segment Displays In-Reply-To: <427AB859.nailFH31EVJTK@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at May 5, 5 08:20:41 pm Message-ID: > > > One of my VCR's has a load of LED 7 segment displays > > My family's first VCR had a mechanical timer (not too much different than > an alarm clock) and a knob-tuner (obviously using the same tuner mechanism > as knob-tuned TV's) for selecting the channel. I have a VCR with a mechanical timer -- and it is one of the first domestic VCRs, a Philips N1500. The timer driven by a synchronous motor from the AC line (I think via a dropping resistor, maybe also using the mains transformer primary winding as an autotransformer). It has an analogue clock face with a coloured band you can move round and adjust in length (up to 1 hour, the longest tapes that were made for this machine). There's another control on the clock that selects whether it will trigger on the first or second time the hour hand gets to the coloured segment (i.e. giving a total range of up to 24 hours in the future). The tuner, though, is electronic. There's a set of interlocked buttons on tope, and the same number of multi-turn presets under a flap. In fact much of the tuner/IF circuitry is the same as in Philips TVs of the period. It's a strange machine. The cassettes have the 2 spools stacked on top of each other, there's a complex dual concentric drive spindle. One result of this is that the head drum is almost -- but not quite -- parallel to the deck surface. That machine is now about 33 years old. In that time it's needed nothing more than a new set of belts, a repair to the threading pulley, and one new transistor in the audio mute circuit. The machine with the 7 segment LEDs is also a Philips -- a VR2022. This is one of the later V2000 machines, taking a flipover cassette with up to 4 hours recording per side. The video heads are mounted on piezo crystals (with a set of brush contacts on top of the head drum), which allows them to be servo-tracked along the video tracks -- a bit like a hard disk head (to get this towards being on-topic ;-)). You can therefore have a noiseless freeze-frame -- one of the problems with other vcr systems is that the apparanet angle of the recorded track to the edge of the tape depends on the tape speed, so if you stop the tape for a freeze-frame, the head wanders off the edges of the track. The V2000 machines apply some amazingly large (over 100V) waveforms to the actuator crystals in this mode, but the heads stay on the video tracks. It's also a machine with very few mechanical parts. The only rubber part is the pinch roller. The capstan, drum, and both reels are directly driven by their own motors (there's a 5th motor for lacing up the tape). There's no back-tension band, back tension is applied by a small current through the rewind motor. Oh, and the electronics is all on plug-in boards, apart from the tuners, RF splitter and modulator, which are soldered to the backplane PCB. There must be about 20 such boards, including half a dozen for the various servos. The service manual (I have it, of course), documents each board sepaarately, and also explains the complete machine. I'd love to find the diagnostic tool for it. This was a box containing a ROM and an address latch with a bit of ribbon cable coming out of it ending in a 40 pin DIL clip. You clipped it over the 8048 on the syscon board and it disabled that chip's intenral ROM and ran the program from the external ROM instead. It would let you do all sorts of useful things. I'd also like to find the baseband I/O adapater. There's a 20 pin non-standard plug on the back that this connects to. It gives composite video and (mono) audio I/O, a remote pause facility, etc. Oh well, enough off-topic rambling... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 6 17:58:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:58:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> from "Tim Riker" at May 6, 5 01:33:46 pm Message-ID: > > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. On, I think it was > > 2G drives, we had 100% failure in 2 weeks. > > Because it's spelled "Micropolis"? THis m,ust be the new Micropolis drives. The old 8" 1200 series winchesters seem to be pretty reliable (and are used on classic computers like the Tekky 8500-seires developments systems and the PERQ 2 T1). -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 6 19:39:40 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:39:40 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <20050506114057.I757@localhost> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> <20050506114057.I757@localhost> Message-ID: <427C0E4C.nail2TU1U1WJ7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > rack mount boat-anchor Fujitsu montrosity (14"?) See-through smoked grey cover? Then it was probably of the 2284 series. While not as good reliability-wise as the Eagle or the 8" Fujitsu SMD's, they weren't bad. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 6 19:49:11 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:49:11 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <427C1087.nail2W51I1FHW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > SMD drives [...] going from dozens to hundreds of megabytes The largest I met were 8" Fujitsus that were in the 2 Gbyte range. If we want to get into the "drive interfaces that were the next big thing but never quite caught on in the wide world", we can start talking IPI :-). I've seen VME and TurboChannel IPI interface boards. We may still have some dead IPI drives in a chassis at work... IPI cabling looks a lot like SCSI cabling but that's about all I can say about the interface standard. Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 6 20:15:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:15:55 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050506201555.46e070c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 4 May 2005 19:57:13 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Kevin wrote: > > Can anyone advise what OS shipped with the IBM XT 5160 - I can't > > seem to find a definitive answer on the net. > > None. IBM-DOS was available for separate purchase, as were several > other operating systems. > > In other words, it 'shipped' with Cassette Basic, but minus the cassette interface. All IBM XTs will boot to the Cassette Basic prompt, if no disk controller is found, or no diskette is found in the A drive. You can type in BASIC programs and run them, even writing to drives and whatnot if I'm not mistaken. My IBM PC Convertable will do the same thing, it's from the same generation of IBM 8088 machine as the PC-XT. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 6 20:31:50 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 21:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <427C1087.nail2W51I1FHW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> <427C1087.nail2W51I1FHW@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200505070135.VAA00699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If we want to get into the "drive interfaces that were the next big > thing but never quite caught on in the wide world", we can start > talking IPI :-). Oh, that brings back memories. Back when our SPARCserver 470s were new, I think we had IPI disk on them. > IPI cabling looks a lot like SCSI cabling but that's about all I can > say about the interface standard. Well, a lot like Sun SCSI cabling of the time, in that it used DD-50 connectors. But the cables were DD50M on one end and DD50F on the other, unlike the SCSI DD50M on each end. Similarly, each drive had a DD50F and a DD50M, instead of the SCSI way of 2xDD50F on drives. I remember noticing this specifically because it was the only obvious difference between the IPI cables and short SCSI cables. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 6 20:50:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:50:45 -0500 Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 04 May 2005 21:04:39 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Parker, Kevin wrote: > > >Do you know what the popular choice was? > > > > > > > My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more > popular with the clones. Now what programing languges > did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran > come to mind. > > I have the IBM Basic Compiler, version 1.0 and the Pascal Compiler 1.0. There were a useful number of BASIC programs included with DOS 1.0. The amoritzation program comes to mind. There were also some early games. There were also a series of early commercial packaged games for the PC sold on the IBM label. I have the 'Strategy Games' diskette sold by IBM, and also Microsoft Adventure, which is the regular 'UNIX' adventure game ('xyzzy' password, etc.) ported to the PC on a bootable diskette (no DOS required). I knew it first as 'Microsoft Adventure' due to early exposure to it on dad's PC. People from the UNIX culture would obviously object to this name. In the interest of sharing, I just stopped typing this message and shot some photographs of the packages of the early IBM-PC games I have. I've thrown a web page up on it and you're welcome to take a look. http://sasteven.multics.org/IBM-games/EarlyPCGames.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 6 20:58:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:58:05 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050505093825.009436f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.32.20050505093825.009436f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050506205805.4d7dfaac.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 05 May 2005 09:38:25 -0400 "Joe R." wrote: > At 02:28 AM 5/5/05 -0500, Pat wrote: > >woodelf declared on Wednesday 04 May 2005 10:04 pm: > >> Parker, Kevin wrote: > >> >Do you know what the popular choice was? > >> > >> My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more > >> popular with the clones. Now what programing languges > >> did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran > >> come to mind. > > > >Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't > >require you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was > >probably more useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC > >had a cassette interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. > > FWIW Also left out Professional Fortran, IBM Cobal, RM Cobal, Basic > Compiler without 8087, Basic Compiler with 8087, APL, Logo and several > more. I've been collecting the stuff and I'm amazed how many different > languages there were. I'm up to about four LARGE boxs of the stuff. > > BTW recently picked up an old AT and found an 8" disk drive > controller > in it. I can't remember who made it (Farmer Electonics?) but it's NOT > a compaticard. I powered up the AT to look for any drivers but the > CMOS has lost it's settings so I have to dig up a Setup disk and reset > them before I can access the HD and look for drivers. Checked my stash > and found that all the Setup disks that I have are all for PCs and XTs > so I'e got to go dig deeper to find the right Setup disk. > > Joe > I belive that the common generic, i.e. third party, 'AT Setup' utilities that you'll find on archives like Simtelnet are fully AT Compatible and should let you set the drive type. They should be available in one of the utility sections of the archive. If you can't find a vintage-enough Simtelnet archive, I know I have some of that stuff on old CDROM collections and can dig for it for you. > From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 6 21:04:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 21:04:22 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200505050228.40699.pat@computer-refuge.org> <427A4D90.3060300@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050506210422.0c864757.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I don't think C came out until after the AT. > On Thu, 5 May 2005, [iso-8859-15] Bj?rn wrote: > > IBM C 3.0 came just before OS/2 1.0 as far as I'm able to recall. > > The > > The first IBM (MS) C compiler ("3.0"?) was purchased from Lattice. > > > first PC C compiler I used was odd - it did not have the standard > > function library, everything was slightly different. I think that > > would have been shortly after the XT was launched. > > ALthough it was NOT the "first" one, I kinda liked DeSmet C. I still > use it (now called "Personal C Compiler") to introduce my students to > the concept of a command line compiler. > I have several versions of Aztec C that are from the early 8088 era. A 'light' version and the full-blown product. I believe the manual for my copy is also the manual for the CP/M version. I just have the DOS version. I was poking around coding with it about a year ago on an old DOS laptop. I was trying to get it up and running on my HP-95LX palmtop if I remember correctly (which I have an old version of masm.com on the cmos drive of) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 6 21:34:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 21:34:42 -0500 Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 5 May 2005 12:31:57 -0400 "Computer Collector Newsletter" wrote: > ...Why that "ten year rule" no longer applies: Java. > > http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/05/05/HNjavaat10_1.html > > I can already hear the moans of "hear we go again" but I figured this > example is amusing enough... I recall that last time we sort of agreed > that date alone is hardly what makes something "vintage". I still > concur. > Oh, I dunno. There's a certain folkloric amusement in collecting examples of early Java hype. It's kinda like looking back at old issues of Mondo 2000 magazine. Was there anything 'java' *except* hype for the first few years? All those vacuous early 'Java' books from the era when common knowledge was that 'java is a mechanism for selling books and magazine articles' will one day be collectable. I have a copy of 'Corel Office for Java' (it's just an executable: COJ.EXE) that they put out as a beta-experiment back in the late 90's. I fired it up recently on a Pentium III system in Windows 2000 and it's pretty snappy and nice. Shouldn't have flopped, but there was a lot of odd stuff happening back then... This all detracts from what people on this list hold in common as 'interesting' though so I will shut up. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 6 21:39:43 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <56298.207.145.53.202.1115433583.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Scott wrote: > and also Microsoft Adventure, which is the regular 'UNIX' adventure > game ('xyzzy' password, etc.) ported to the PC on a bootable diskette > (no DOS required). I knew it first as 'Microsoft Adventure' due to > early exposure to it on dad's PC. People from the UNIX culture would > obviously object to this name. I don't see why. It's not fundamentally a "Unix game". It originated on TOPS-10 on a DECsystem-10 (PDP-10 processor). The Apple II edition of Microsoft Adventure was the first commercial software I ever purchased, though I'd already almost completed the original version on the DECsystem-10. I thought it was nice being able to run it at home. At the time, the game cost almost two week's take-home pay (part-time fast-food job). Soon followed by Zork II; I'd already played Zork I on a friend's computer. Eric From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Fri May 6 22:09:33 2005 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 22:09:33 -0500 Subject: Need Altos ACS8000 diagnostic files In-Reply-To: <56298.207.145.53.202.1115433583.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: I had an Altos ACS8000 diagnostic disk, but it's gone bad. I am able to use 22disk and Anadisk to recreate it if someone can email me the .dia files. Anyone have them? I need version 2.6. Richard From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 6 22:08:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <200505070135.VAA00699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 May 2005, der Mouse wrote: > Well, a lot like Sun SCSI cabling of the time, in that it used DD-50 > connectors. But the cables were DD50M on one end and DD50F on the > other, unlike the SCSI DD50M on each end. Similarly, each drive had a > DD50F and a DD50M, instead of the SCSI way of 2xDD50F on drives. I > remember noticing this specifically because it was the only obvious > difference between the IPI cables and short SCSI cables. Oh, now I know what those weird cables are that I have bunches of ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 6 22:20:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:20:10 -0400 Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 5/6/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > Oh, I dunno. There's a certain folkloric amusement in collecting > examples of early Java hype. It's kinda like looking back at old issues > of Mondo 2000 magazine. Hey! I got an article published in "Mondo 2000"... it was on VR. Wait? Was it hype we were talking about? Nevermind. *mumble* -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 6 22:25:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:25:20 -0400 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072049.05306930@mail> References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072049.05306930@mail> Message-ID: On 5/6/05, John Foust wrote: > Compiling on early Amigas was a real pain. Any floppy-based C compiler is a pain. It's worse on early Amigas because malloc() would guru the OS rather than return a null pointer (not the C compiler's fault - the lowest level memory allocation routine in the kernel did it). It gave rise to a lot of old software that would *never* fly in the UNIX world because AmigaDOS 1.0 and 1.1 developers assumed that if malloc() returned, the pointer *must* be valid. Not a safe assumption on a machine that doesn't have virtual memory (and not that safe when you _do_ have virtual memory, either). -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 6 22:31:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 23:31:49 -0400 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050506205805.4d7dfaac.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050505093825.009436f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <3.0.6.32.20050505093825.009436f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050506233149.0153a380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:58 PM 5/6/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 05 May 2005 09:38:25 -0400 >"Joe R." wrote: > >> At 02:28 AM 5/5/05 -0500, Pat wrote: >> >woodelf declared on Wednesday 04 May 2005 10:04 pm: >> >> Parker, Kevin wrote: >> >> >Do you know what the popular choice was? >> >> >> >> My Guess is IBM-DOS ... MS-DOS only came more >> >> popular with the clones. Now what programing languges >> >> did you have back then? Assembler , Pascal and Fortran >> >> come to mind. >> > >> >Erm, you seem to have left out BASIC, one version of which didn't >> >require you to have disks to use (ROM BASIC); however, that was >> >probably more useful on the 5150 PC than the 5160 PC/XT since the PC >> >had a cassette interface you could use with it, which the XT lacks. >> >> FWIW Also left out Professional Fortran, IBM Cobal, RM Cobal, Basic >> Compiler without 8087, Basic Compiler with 8087, APL, Logo and several >> more. I've been collecting the stuff and I'm amazed how many different >> languages there were. I'm up to about four LARGE boxs of the stuff. >> >> BTW recently picked up an old AT and found an 8" disk drive >> controller >> in it. I can't remember who made it (Farmer Electonics?) but it's NOT >> a compaticard. I powered up the AT to look for any drivers but the >> CMOS has lost it's settings so I have to dig up a Setup disk and reset >> them before I can access the HD and look for drivers. Checked my stash >> and found that all the Setup disks that I have are all for PCs and XTs >> so I'e got to go dig deeper to find the right Setup disk. >> >> Joe >> > >I belive that the common generic, i.e. third party, 'AT Setup' utilities >that you'll find on archives like Simtelnet are fully AT Compatible and >should let you set the drive type. They should be available in one of >the utility sections of the archive. If you can't find a vintage-enough >Simtelnet archive, I know I have some of that stuff on old CDROM >collections and can dig for it for you. Thanks but I'm sure I have something around here. I just have to get the time to dig it out or download it. FWIW my daughter is graduating from university tomorrow so we're pretty busy at the moment. Joe From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 7 00:36:10 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 00:36:10 -0500 Subject: compucolor Message-ID: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> Although many people on this list won't be particularly interested in the auction part of this post, scan down a bit to read some more traditional cctalk fare. I want to bring notice to the sale of a compucolor machine on ebay. They are rare enough that it seemed worth mentioning. Also, it is filed in a category that would make it easy to miss (Computers, IT & Office > Vintage). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5192237918&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW It is located in Australia. There is about a day left. disclaimer: I'm not the seller, but have bought disks from him before. Since we are on the subject, the purchase of the said disks motivated me to get my Compucolor working. I've had it for a couple of years but between moving, having other old computers to tend to, and the fact that it was reported to have produced smoke the last time it was powered up, I never got around to it. The first step was to check for any damaged components or traces, but none were apparent, so I just gave it a go. Before the variac police come and get me, it was powered up just before I received it. Miraculously, it simply just worked. I imagine the smoke that the original owner experience was due to dust on the CRT burning off. I have no other explanation. Anyway, the disk drive wouldn't read anything. I tried to INItialize a blank disk but that failed too. Lacking a strobe or even fluorescent lights, I couldn't tell from the tach disk on the drive if the speed was off or not, but it seemed like a plausible cause for all the disks to be dead (I should mention I scoped the read logic and it was detecting transitions). I finally just twiddled with the speed pot to find that the speed was way off. Although incandescents have a lot of glow during the power line's zero crossing, near the right speed I could see the strobe pattern well enough. The real reason I couldn't see the pattern was that the speed had been so far off. After adjusting the speed I was able to read most of the disks, although sometimes with retries. Fortunately, all the disks that ISC put out for the compucolor recorded all the programs on both sides (it was a single sided drive) so even with hard sector failures I was able to get everything. Now the main problem is pincushioning and color convergence. I did some simple adjustments to improve color convergence, but without doing something much more involved, it isn't possible to get all regions to converge at the same time. For now I'll just live with the problem. One of the disks that I have is the disk formatter program. ISC sold preformatted disks at $10 for two, and they didn't supply the software so that one could format the disks at home. Apparently late in the game they relented and sold the formatter program, which eventually made its way to me. Now I can mint more formatted disks (I hope -- I haven't actually tried running the program yet). Disks couldn't be formatted using other computers because of the hokey (although dirt cheap) disk interface. The Compucolor has a TMS 5501 multifunction interface chip which contains, in part, a serial port controller. This serial port controller is used for the RS-232 serial port of the machine, and it is good up to 9600 baud (but there is no hardware flow control). Anyway, ISC took advantage of an undocumented test mode of the chip to drive the serial port at 8x speed. The disk looks like a high speed serial channel and the data is simply conditioned and drives the r/w head of the disk drive. I haven't looked into it yet, but they must be encoding each real data byte into two transmitted bytes in order to ensure sufficient transition density and no accumulated DC bias. The net effect is that the disk holds only a bit over 50 KB. From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 7 01:22:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > Since we are on the subject, the purchase of the said disks motivated me > to get my Compucolor working. I've had it for a couple of years but > between moving, having other old computers to tend to, and the fact that > it was reported to have produced smoke the last time it was powered up, > I never got around to it. Mine produced smoke too :( Where did yours smoke from? I want to get mine working again. It seemed to have come from the CRT section. I'll bet I have a smoked cap somewhere. > Disks couldn't be formatted using other computers because of the hokey > (although dirt cheap) disk interface. The Compucolor has a TMS 5501 > multifunction interface chip which contains, in part, a serial port > controller. This serial port controller is used for the RS-232 serial > port of the machine, and it is good up to 9600 baud (but there is no > hardware flow control). Anyway, ISC took advantage of an undocumented > test mode of the chip to drive the serial port at 8x speed. The disk > looks like a high speed serial channel and the data is simply > conditioned and drives the r/w head of the disk drive. I haven't looked > into it yet, but they must be encoding each real data byte into two > transmitted bytes in order to ensure sufficient transition density and > no accumulated DC bias. The net effect is that the disk holds only a > bit over 50 KB. Way cool! Not as cool as the Apple Disk ][ interface though :) I can't remember what disks I got with mine but I should dig them out and then maybe get my CompuColor working so I can see what's on them while I still can. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sat May 7 01:48:55 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 02:48:55 EDT Subject: IBM Winchesters Message-ID: <77.4508e6e1.2fadbed7@aol.com> O.K- I'm confused. (a) Are the bad IBM drives the ones that say "Frame Electronics" "Manufactured in San Jose, CA, USA" (got several in RS/6ks, etc.- seem to work O.K (they're on topic and still chugging along) but I want to be forewarned Just In Case. (b) are, as discussion indicates, the "Incredibly Dubious Engineering" interface drives from IBM/Hitachi O.K.? I'm looking for decent IDEs as it seems time is running out for some of my drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 7 02:02:09 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 00:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Winchesters In-Reply-To: <77.4508e6e1.2fadbed7@aol.com> References: <77.4508e6e1.2fadbed7@aol.com> Message-ID: <56460.67.116.5.237.1115449329.squirrel@67.116.5.237> > O.K- I'm confused. (a) Are the bad IBM drives the ones that say "Frame [...] > I'm looking for decent IDEs as it seems time is running out for some of > my drives. The problematic Deskstar drives were before IBM and Hitachi merged their disk operations, and have long since been fixed. In general, recent HGST drives seem to be fine. I use a *lot* of Maxtor IDE drives, mostly 80MB and 200MB, on 3ware RAID controllers in Linux boxes, and I've found them to be fairly reliable, contrary to the opinions expressed here by some people. However, I basically will not trust my data to any single disk drive any more; I now keep all my data on RAIDs (either the 3ware or the Linux "md" software RAID driver), except for my laptop, and I back that up frequently. Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 02:57:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 02:57:41 -0500 Subject: Pick assembly, was Re: XT 5160 References: <200505060201.TAA16436@floodgap.com><035d01c551e2$60670470$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <427BE1B5.1080905@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <001c01c552da$71fd48e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gene wrote.... > Have you seen OpenQM? It's a neat GPLed multi-valued system. It's > default flavor is UniVerse I think. There's a term I used to live by... haven't heard it in years!!! (multi-valued system). Picks strong suit was the way all disk records were multidimentional. No sleep... will post more later From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 03:00:47 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 03:00:47 -0500 Subject: compucolor References: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002901c552da$e1c10a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Although many people on this list won't be particularly interested in the > auction part of this post, scan down a bit to read some more traditional > cctalk fare. > > I want to bring notice to the sale of a compucolor machine on ebay. I spent a lot of time on a compucolor system, doing some customer programming for Anheuser-Busch. We used it for displaying graphics of the brewing process in real time. I think it was a compucolor II actually? Very very old foggy memory... I'd love to stumble on one some day, but not bad enough to pay shipping from AU. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 03:12:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 03:12:08 -0500 Subject: apologies Message-ID: <002f01c552dc$769c3a80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> My apologies folks, quite a few people have emailed me and I've been extremely difficult to get ahold of lately. I've had a mishmash of severe work issues lately. Geeze, I'm supposed to be semi-retired. Got a flood of emergencies all at once and I'm going to be out of pocket for a week or so yet. Sampling of the crap for those who care to commisurate... We host a lot of websites for music groups... John Fogharty, Steve Winwood, Keller Williams, DoubleDose, String Cheese Incident... and... the DresdenDolls. The dresden dolls announced recently that they were going on tour with Nine Inch Nails. Wonder of wonder, suddenly their website was sucking up to 45mbps sustained. Maybe it had to do with all those live performance videos & mp3 files. Anyways... I've spent a lot of time dealing with that (as well as the politics of getting them to pay for the bandwidth). bw_mod has become my friend. Then, for the past two days I noticed some network oddities (you know, when an admin can't quite put their finger on it but knows something is amiss)... well, about 6pm tonight I found the culprit. One of the servers that is colocated with us by another band (not managed by us) got hacked. I found all kinds of wonderful udp flood scripts, paypal scripts, irc bots, etc. When will admins learn that their laziness affects others. Anyways, they've charged me with cleaning up their mess. Add that to the part time work I'm supposed to be doing, and, well... loosely translated, forgive me if I take a while to get back to people for a short bit. Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 7 05:37:10 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 05:37:10 -0500 Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: References: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050507053253.050acf48@mail> At 10:20 PM 5/6/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Hey! I got an article published in "Mondo 2000"... it was on VR. >Wait? Was it hype we were talking about? Nevermind. *mumble* Come to think of it, I'm sure classic VR gear will be very, very rare for collectors. Best I've got is two pair of LCD shutter-glasses, one for PC, one for Amiga. I've willed my collection of "Morph's Outpost" to Sellam. Or maybe I should just send it to him now. Even Jaron Lanier has slightly apologized: http://www.advanced.org/jaron/topeleven.html - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 7 05:58:30 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 05:58:30 -0500 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072049.05306930@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050507054950.04e78978@mail> At 10:25 PM 5/6/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 5/6/05, John Foust wrote: >> Compiling on early Amigas was a real pain. > >Any floppy-based C compiler is a pain. It's worse on early Amigas >because malloc() would guru the OS rather than return a null pointer >(not the C compiler's fault - the lowest level memory allocation >routine in the kernel did it). It gave rise to a lot of old software >that would *never* fly in the UNIX world because AmigaDOS 1.0 and 1.1 >developers assumed that if malloc() returned, the pointer *must* be >valid. Not a safe assumption on a machine that doesn't have virtual >memory (and not that safe when you _do_ have virtual memory, either). I'm not remembering this sort of malloc() bug. Are you thinking of something with the AmigaDOS AllocMem()/FreeMem() calls? Or something in a particular C compiler's library? I can see how a particularly poorly written C application that never checked malloc()'s return value could crash if it wrote to a null pointer. What will be humbling is that when we find the answer, we will find it in an article that I wrote in the 80s. :-) I've been meaning to put all my old Amazing Computing articles online. - John From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 7 06:23:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:23:35 -0400 Subject: Free uVax III, 9-track tape drives, Q-bus SCSI controller, etc. Message-ID: <427CA537.nail7DH112XVN@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Seeing how the demand for Q-bus SCSI controllers is, I would've thought I'd have gotten rid of this by now. But again: Free, for pickup only in the Washington DC area: A DEC H960 (6-foot) rack with a BA213 chassis, KA650 CPU + memory, Ethernet, TK70, Emulex Pertec Formatted tape controller (QT13), and a Q-bus SCSI controller. Also in the rack: Fujitsu M2444 1600/6250 BPI 9-track drive. There's a complete (but disassembled) M2444 in addition for spare parts. A BA23 for Q-bus expansion. The Q-bus extender paddles and cables. A Trimm Industries SCSI enclosure (styled just like the BA23) and associated SCSI cabling. Outside the rack are some miscellaneous Q-bus cards that I've dug up since the last giveaway. I want this system to go to a hobbyist so I'm not selling off the "valuable" cards and sending the rest to the metal recycler. So I'm insisting that it be picked up from my basement just outside Washington DC. Don't worry, you get lots of help de-racking the components and carrying up the steps. But you do need a vehicle that'll hold the rack and components, an empty Minivan or a pickup will do quite nicely. (All but the smallest pickups will hold a 6-foot rack if you unscrew the casters...) Also, you're welcome to take away as many VAX/VMS and Alpha/VMS condists as you want. And I'll probably find some other stuff that I'll want you to take (but you can say no). If you're interested, mail me at my regular off-list E-mail address, "shoppa at trailing-edge.com", or call at 301-767-5917. I'm available for getting it out of the basement most weeknights and most weekends. Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat May 7 06:33:13 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:33:13 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 May 2005 11:02:06 PDT." <200505051802.LAA09404@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200505071133.j47BXDxP023665@mwave.heeltoe.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: ... >room air, but the point is that the compound does have physiologic effects >when inhaled (unlike, say, a noble gas like helium), and that's why he >dropped (not merely from hypoxia). Ah. I always assumed it was hypoxia. thanks! -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat May 7 06:44:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:44:17 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 May 2005 20:39:40 EDT." <427C0E4C.nail2TU1U1WJ7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200505071144.j47BiH0g024312@mwave.heeltoe.com> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> rack mount boat-anchor Fujitsu montrosity (14"?) > >See-through smoked grey cover? Then it was probably of the 2284 >series. While not as good reliability-wise as the Eagle or the >8" Fujitsu SMD's, they weren't bad. Yup. I've got 2. They still work. And fun to watch :-) -brad From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 06:49:43 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 12:49:43 +0100 Subject: VK100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c552fa$dd687800$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Unibus wrote: > Anyone have pointers to the manuals on the net. Try VK100 and GIGI in Manx: http://vt100.net/manx That should find you a few useful ones. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Sat May 7 07:01:25 2005 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 14:01:25 +0200 Subject: tapestreamer free in Arnhem,NL Message-ID: <427CAE15.9040906@worldonline.nl> Hi, I am about to throw away an Archive corp. tapestreamer model 2150L with SC402 controller. (150 Mb) If somebody wants it, mail me. Wim From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 7 07:56:56 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 08:56:56 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <427CBB18.nail8PV11LN85@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [Microcomputers that support/didn't support SMD drives] The IMSAI sales brochures circa 1977 promised a S-100 controller for what was obviously one of the larger CDC SMD removable pack drives. Ah, here's the quote, August 1976 color sales brochure: Disk Drives: Disk-50, Disk-80, Disk-200 You can sp;ecify 3330-type disk drives with 50, 80, or 200-megabyte capacities. Each drive is supplied with Disk Drive Interface HDIF. Please Contact the factory for additional information. Was the HDIF purely vaporware, or was it a real shipped item? 200 Megabytes would be a lot in the mid-70's, even for a minicomputer system! Tim. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat May 7 08:35:01 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:35:01 -0400 Subject: apologies In-Reply-To: <002f01c552dc$769c3a80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507091206.00b1d2e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >My apologies folks, quite a few people have emailed me and I've been >extremely difficult to get ahold of lately. I haven't tried... I *know* my arms won't reach from yooperland... ;-) No need to apologize, for sure! I just went through a week of the same stuff, diddling a database for a friend of a friend... >[snippage] >... We host a lot of websites for music groups... John Fogharty, Steve >Winwood... Have you ever met Mr. Winwood? My wife would be all a-twitter if I told her I know a guy that met him... ;-) =-=-=-= On a related note, back in the early days of my learning about this interweb thingy, I was sent down to Duh-troit for a week of "training" --> well, these folks were great at their jobs of setting up & hosting websites, but they really weren't cut out for the education jazz. Anyway, one of the websites they hosted was Thomas Dolby's -- he was an "early adopter" of the 'net; his website couldn't truly be appreciated unless you had high bandwidth - (read: at least fractional T1; and a pretty fair fraction at that[1]) and the guy who was "educating" me took a call one day from Mr. Dolby himself -- as I sat right next to him. Believe you me, Bubba: Looking back, it was rather anticlimactic -- hearing the speakerfone: "Andy... Mr. Dolby on line 2 for you." and then 20 minutes of "Yea... Neat... We could try that... How about this... That would take some time..." whilst I had nothing to do but watch him click fervently at the website's links and get the short end of a 1-sided conversation. But at the time, it was kinda neat... (This was *almost* 10 years ago, but the machines we worked on at the time are all over 10 years old now... Yea, lame attempt, but it's a Saturday morning and I'm at work...) Laterz, "Merch" [1] This was at a time that 14.4 modems were still pretty expensive, and 28.8 was almost an unaffordable luxury... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From zmerch at 30below.com Sat May 7 09:05:42 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:05:42 -0400 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> How's this for *strange*??? About 8 years ago, the wife and I bought a dual-recliner sofa at an auction for $75. It served it's purpose well, through 3 kids and a fat husband. ;-) However, it was time to go. Between taxes and selling my JCB backhoe, we figured we could afford a new couch, so off we went to the furniture store (2 hours away, one way).[1] $30 delivery for the new couch - considering the hassle of hitching a trailer, burning a good $25 in gas *anyway* I figured this was a good deal. *Another* $30 to pick up the old one, and I said "Noper -- I have a sawz-all and a fireplace. We'll take care of it."[2] Whilst disassembling the old couch to become firefood, under the fabric in the bottom of the couch, I found an APL "quick reference" card! It's the size of a playing card, and made of the same material of some really high end card decks made 25-30 years ago[3]. It's called an "APL Vadis Enum" or something -- it's Latin, of which I don't speak, and the card's at home, /me's at work right now. If anyone's interested, I can post an update when I get another look at the card, and prolly post pictures as well. It lists most monadic and dyadic functions, some quad functions, etc... Kinda neat, especially since I learned APL back in college. Anyway, that's the strangest place I ever found anything classiccmp related; especially considering the fact that it's been under my... uhhh... nose all along. ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] I shop locally when possible, but none of the local stores had anything close to what we were looking for. [2] The salesman was pretty decent overall, but after I told him I had a sawz-all, he said "Do you know that recliner sofas have metal in them?" My reply: "Uhhh... yea. That's why God invented carbide sawblades." Sheesh. [3] My parents had a set of these -- their "good set" of cards. They said for 2 decks of cards, they cost nearly $10USD 30 years ago... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat May 7 09:35:35 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:35:35 +0100 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <012e01c55312$08918b40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> >From: "Roger Merchberger" > Between taxes and selling my JCB backhoe, Good to see someone supporting the British economy for a change - we need to get some of our cash back from Microsoft...... Jim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat May 7 09:55:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 09:55:30 -0500 Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <56298.207.145.53.202.1115433583.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <56298.207.145.53.202.1115433583.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050507095530.1a4fd73f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 6 May 2005 19:39:43 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Scott wrote: > > and also Microsoft Adventure, which is the regular 'UNIX' adventure > > game ('xyzzy' password, etc.) ported to the PC on a bootable > > diskette(no DOS required). I knew it first as 'Microsoft Adventure' > > due to early exposure to it on dad's PC. People from the UNIX > > culture would obviously object to this name. > > I don't see why. It's not fundamentally a "Unix game". It originated > on TOPS-10 on a DECsystem-10 (PDP-10 processor). > You're correct; I was uncertain of the origin of the game. I should have typed instead of Unix. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 7 10:05:20 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:05:20 -0500 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427CD930.6000707@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > ... > Mine produced smoke too :( Where did yours smoke from? I want to get > mine working again. It seemed to have come from the CRT section. I'll > bet I have a smoked cap somewhere. I didn't see any smoke. The previous owner reported it, so it was just speculation on my part that it was dust cooking off the CRT neck. A very common problem reported is that the switching power supply sometimes wouldn't start oscillating and it would result in a cooked machine. >>Disks couldn't be formatted using other computers because of the hokey >>(although dirt cheap) disk interface. .... >>Anyway, ISC took advantage of an undocumented >>test mode of the chip to drive the serial port at 8x speed. The disk >>looks like a high speed serial channel and the data is simply >>conditioned and drives the r/w head of the disk drive.> > > Way cool! Not as cool as the Apple Disk ][ interface though :) I have to respect both, for different reasons. The compucolor design (given the fact that the RS-232 chip was already there) cost them one jellybean chip -- they mux/demux the data to the RS-232 port or the disk drive using a few sections of a tristate buffer. The apple II design by comparison was 10x more complicated. The apple II design also had super critical timing requirements of the driver code but the compucolor design didn't. On the flip side, the apple design had better density and was incredibly flexible. So I respect the compucolor for minimalism and the apple design on esthetics. It has been reported that originally the compulor was designed to store to an 8-track cart, but then they ECO'd it to drive a floppy disk instead. The disk allocation is very simple and perhaps derives from its original tape cart implementation. Files are contiguously allocated on the disk and files are kept packed. Files can only be added to the end and if you delete a file in the middle, all the later files get shuffled down. And in order to make it go faster, they use the 4K of video RAM to buffer multiple sectors during the shuffling. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 7 10:58:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:58:55 -0400 Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050507053253.050acf48@mail> References: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050507053253.050acf48@mail> Message-ID: On 5/7/05, John Foust wrote: > Come to think of it, I'm sure classic VR gear will be very, very rare > for collectors. Best I've got is two pair of LCD shutter-glasses, > one for PC, one for Amiga. I have a VR headset (old enough to be on-topic), and a couple of pairs of shutter glasses... and... somewhere I have the game that came with the Amiga glasses where you shoot potatoes flying at you in space to keep your in-game avatar from gaining weight. Those were some crazy days. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 7 10:58:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050506201555.46e070c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE8D@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <44908.207.145.53.202.1115261833.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050506201555.46e070c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050507085652.U53044@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > In other words, it 'shipped' with Cassette Basic, but minus the cassette > interface. All IBM XTs will boot to the Cassette Basic prompt, if no > disk controller is found, or no diskette is found in the A drive. You > can type in BASIC programs and run them, even writing to drives and > whatnot if I'm not mistaken. Cassette BASIC did not include any built-in support for disk drives. 'course it did have peek and poke, with which you could do "anything", including talk to the FDC, or put machine language code into memory. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 7 11:00:44 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 09:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050507085939.O53044@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > There were a useful number of BASIC programs included with DOS 1.0. The > amoritzation program comes to mind. > There were also some early games. Don't forget "DONKEY"! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 7 10:58:36 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 09:58:36 -0600 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <002901c552da$e1c10a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> <002901c552da$e1c10a40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <427CE5AC.50401@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > > I'd love to stumble on one some day, but not bad enough to pay > shipping from AU. > Well just collect it in OZ and travel once a year to see it. You would not want the EARTH's rotation to go out of whack with all the computer hords stashed in the USA. Australia would just balance things out. > Jay And to get even with all the stupid email disclamers. ------------------------- "Export your PEE-CEES to OZ and save the ORBIT of the EARTH." The views here are all my own insanity not somebody else's stupidy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 7 11:03:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:03:56 -0600 Subject: apologies In-Reply-To: <002f01c552dc$769c3a80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002f01c552dc$769c3a80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <427CE6EC.2050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > > The dresden dolls announced recently that they were going on tour with > Nine Inch Nails. Wonder of wonder, suddenly their website was sucking > up to 45mbps sustained. Maybe it had to do with all those live > performance videos & mp3 files. Anyways... I've spent a lot of time > dealing with that (as well as the politics of getting them to pay for > the bandwidth). bw_mod has become my friend. > I guess getting 45's may be a little hard from them. With all the download stuff just what do Bands sell anymore? > Then, for the past two days I noticed some network oddities (you know, > when an admin can't quite put their finger on it but knows something > is amiss)... well, about 6pm tonight I found the culprit. One of the > servers that is colocated with us by another band (not managed by us) > got hacked. I found all kinds of wonderful udp flood scripts, paypal > scripts, irc bots, etc. When will admins learn that their laziness > affects others. Anyways, they've charged me with cleaning up their mess. Install unix on a old PDP ... that may speed things up. Runs and ducks. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 7 14:05:51 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 15:05:51 -0400 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <427D118F.nailC1E1PJSGO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > especiall considering the fact that it's been under my ...nose all along. I can pull lots of boxes off the shelf and find stuff that I haven't seen in a couple decades. It's been so long since I thought about that particular item, it's like finding it new all over again! With so little time to play it goes back in the box on the shelf for another twenty years :-(. Tim. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat May 7 14:25:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 15:25:45 -0400 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! In-Reply-To: <427D118F.nailC1E1PJSGO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507151944.03b1bd80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com may have mentioned these words: > > especiall considering the fact that it's been under my ...nose all along. > >I can pull lots of boxes off the shelf and find stuff that I haven't >seen in a couple decades. It's been so long since I thought about that >particular item, it's like finding it new all over again! > >With so little time to play it goes back in the box on the shelf for >another twenty years :-(. The kicker about this story, is I bought the couch *used* --> I've never ever seen one of these cards before! Either the couch picked it up at the factory (unlikely) or a bigger geek than me owned the couch previous to my purchasing it at auction. ;^> BTW, it's an "APL Vade Mecum" (I'm at home now) it's copyright 1983 by APL Press in Palo Alto. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 7 14:42:13 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 14:42:13 -0500 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <427CBB18.nail8PV11LN85@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <427CBB18.nail8PV11LN85@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200505071442.13684.pat@computer-refuge.org> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com declared on Saturday 07 May 2005 07:56 am: > 3330-type disk drives I saw this in the technical manual for the Century Data disk drives I posted on here about a few weeks ago. Are they referring to IBM 3330 type drives? That was my first guess, but I couldn't decide if that's what they meant, or if there was something else that they were referring to, since it didn't say "IBM 3330" just "3330". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat May 7 15:17:39 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 13:17:39 -0700 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay Message-ID: ISTR someone looking for one of these 5153 IBM CGA Monitors. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5194458575 No connection with sale. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 15:52:24 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:52:24 -0500 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com><5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050507151944.03b1bd80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002001c55346$d059f660$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Roger wrote.... > BTW, it's an "APL Vade Mecum" 4 year latin student here.... Vade Mecum = "Go with me" More commonly used (not in latin) to refer to a manual or reference guide. Sounds appropriate for a pocket reference card. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 15:58:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 15:58:55 -0500 Subject: apologies References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507091206.00b1d2e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002501c55347$94eb01e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >>... We host a lot of websites for music groups... John Fogharty, Steve >>Winwood... > > Have you ever met Mr. Winwood? My wife would be all a-twitter if I told > her I know a guy that met him... ;-) Never met him in person, but talked to his wife Genia on the phone quite a bit. Jay From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 7 16:16:42 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:16:42 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <001d01c5534a$112f6050$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I just got a Dell Pocket PC last week and I want to start seeking out some "classic" stuff for it. For starters, I've done some Googling for the adventure game interpreter ScottFree for thr PocketPC but I've come up empty. Does anyone have a pointer to one? Also, I'd appreciate any links to other classic stuff for the PocketPC. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 7 16:35:59 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:35:59 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <200505071442.13684.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <427CBB18.nail8PV11LN85@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200505071442.13684.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <427D34BF.nailCYZ1195WD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> 3330-type disk drives > I saw this in the technical manual for the Century Data disk drives > I posted on here about a few weeks ago. Are they referring to IBM > 3330 type drives? In this context I think it means "removable pack drive". And I'm 99% certain they are referring to the CDC SMD removable pack drives (9762, 9766, etc.) I believe that Memorex sold a SMD removable pack drive whose model number was 3330, too. Maybe it was media compatible with the IBM of the same number. I'm not sure where (it's *not* the Aug 1976 glossy) but I think I've seen a picture of a IMSAI next to a CDC 9762, with the implication that they were connected. Don't know if that was an IMSAI ad or not. Tim. (After 30 years I still think it was probably vaporware... Of course there were non-SMD hard drives (SA4000 style) that were succesfully interfaced to S-100 stuff.) From ragooman at comcast.net Sat May 7 17:08:44 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:08:44 -0400 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> References: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <427D3C6C.2050108@comcast.net> I see this is a Compucolor II. My biggest wish list is a Compucolor I. I remember vividly staring at this in a computer store in NYC when it was first released while I was in High school. In fact I was drooling at the mouth, knowing I couldn't never afford one then. My brother settled for an Altair 680 kit which we built together(which I still have to this day). So I never came across one of those yet in all these times :( Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ My Corner of Cyberspace ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] [ Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot ? ] [ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Pittsburgh Vintage Computer Society Classic Computers ] [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim Battle wrote: > Although many people on this list won't be particularly interested in > the auction part of this post, scan down a bit to read some more > traditional cctalk fare. > > I want to bring notice to the sale of a compucolor machine on ebay. > They are rare enough that it seemed worth mentioning. Also, it is > filed in a category that would make it easy to miss (Computers, IT & > Office > Vintage). > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5192237918&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > It is located in Australia. There is about a day left. > -- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 5/6/2005 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 7 17:18:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 18:18:59 -0400 Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050507054950.04e78978@mail> References: <20050505204522.U22923@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050506072049.05306930@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050507054950.04e78978@mail> Message-ID: On 5/7/05, John Foust wrote: > I'm not remembering this sort of malloc() bug. Are you thinking > of something with the AmigaDOS AllocMem()/FreeMem() calls? Or something > in a particular C compiler's library? I can see how a particularly > poorly written C application that never checked malloc()'s return > value could crash if it wrote to a null pointer. Back in the days of AmigaDOS 1.0 (and probably 1.1), you never saw it. AllocMem() used to return a valid pointer or wouldn't return at all. Programmers got lazy and never checked for valid pointers because they were defacto valid. A poorly written C program will crash the OS because just past 0x0000000 is 0x00000004, called 'ExecBase', which is, if you remember, where the OS stores the master pointer to find libraries, the Exec, and pretty much everything that follows. Make a write to absolute location 4 and the entire machine blows up spectacularly. Later machines (with MMUs) were able to protect the lowest page of memory, but that wasn't possible with a plain-old 68000. Also, 0x00000000 was not guaranteed to contain 0x0000... it usually did, but it wasn't an OS requirement. Many programmers who confused a null pointer with a pointer to a null got bit later, when things changed (which is why the program Enforcer exists now). > What will be humbling is that when we find the answer, we will > find it in an article that I wrote in the 80s. :-) I've been meaning > to put all my old Amazing Computing articles online. Heh... that might be. Can't wait to see that stuff online. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:23:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:23:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427C53CA.8030506@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 7, 5 00:36:10 am Message-ID: > The first step was to check for any damaged components or traces, but > none were apparent, so I just gave it a go. Before the variac police > come and get me, it was powered up just before I received it. I'd be more worried about damage to the rest of the machine (avoided by testing the PSU on dummy load before connecting the logic) than damage to the PSU (possibly avoided by running it up slowly on a Variac). I've never found a Variac that useful. Light bulbs in series as a current limiter (when fixing SMPSUs), sure. But I am not sure how much good running up the voltage slowly does (and with some SMPSUs it seems it could do some damage!) > Miraculously, it simply just worked. I imagine the smoke that the > original owner experience was due to dust on the CRT burning off. I > have no other explanation. > > Anyway, the disk drive wouldn't read anything. I tried to INItialize a > blank disk but that failed too. Lacking a strobe or even fluorescent > lights, I couldn't tell from the tach disk on the drive if the speed was > off or not, but it seemed like a plausible cause for all the disks to be 'Scope or frequency counter on the index testpoint? > dead (I should mention I scoped the read logic and it was detecting It's one possibilty. It could also have been a lot of other things, drive or controller related. Personally, I'd have done a lot more tests before twiddling anything (but then again, I once spent an afternoon figuring out why a CBM 8250 was ubreliable on one drive, only to find the cause was dirty heads...) > transitions). I finally just twiddled with the speed pot to find that > the speed was way off. Although incandescents have a lot of glow during > the power line's zero crossing, near the right speed I could see the > strobe pattern well enough. The real reason I couldn't see the pattern > was that the speed had been so far off. Did it look like it'd been twiddled before? If not, then I wonder if some other component (capacitor?) is failing, and the speed will therefore drift again. > > After adjusting the speed I was able to read most of the disks, although > sometimes with retries. Fortunately, all the disks that ISC put out for > the compucolor recorded all the programs on both sides (it was a single > sided drive) so even with hard sector failures I was able to get everything. > > Now the main problem is pincushioning and color convergence. I did some > simple adjustments to improve color convergence, but without doing > something much more involved, it isn't possible to get all regions to > converge at the same time. For now I'll just live with the problem. Assuming this is an in-line gun CRT, you normally use the ring magnets on the back of the yoke to do the static (centre) convergence, then tilt/wedge the yoke to get the edges right. But sort out that pincushioning -- which could well be a component failure in the raster correction circuit -- first. Most colour monitors, at least over here, followed pretty standard designs at that time. If the monitor was built by a consumer electronics compeany (NEC, Hitachi, Zenith, etc), look at the service manuals for contemporary TVs from the same manufacturer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:33:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:33:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050507053253.050acf48@mail> from "John Foust" at May 7, 5 05:37:10 am Message-ID: > Come to think of it, I'm sure classic VR gear will be very, very rare > for collectors. Best I've got is two pair of LCD shutter-glasses, > one for PC, one for Amiga. Somewhere I've got a couple of pairs of LCD glasses for an Evans and Sutherland PS390 display system... And yes, I do have the controller for them (which is very simple) and the rest of the PS290 (which is very complicated). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:09:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:09:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050506201555.46e070c1.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 6, 5 08:15:55 pm Message-ID: > In other words, it 'shipped' with Cassette Basic, but minus the cassette > interface. All IBM XTs will boot to the Cassette Basic prompt, if no Correct (as for that matter, did the PC/AT) > disk controller is found, or no diskette is found in the A drive. You > can type in BASIC programs and run them, even writing to drives and > whatnot if I'm not mistaken. My IBM PC Convertable will do the same No, there's no support for the disks at all. Loading and saving uses the appropriate INT call (INT 15???) which was used for the cassette interface on the 5150. It's a NOP on the 5160 I've hald-considered making a paper tape punch/reader interface with a BIOS extension ROM that takes over that INT. Then the ROM basic would use paper tape for I/O on the XT and AT... > thing, it's from the same generation of IBM 8088 machine as the PC-XT. > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:37:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:37:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 7, 5 10:05:42 am Message-ID: > Whilst disassembling the old couch to become firefood, under the fabric in > the bottom of the couch, I found an APL "quick reference" card! It's the > size of a playing card, and made of the same material of some really high > end card decks made 25-30 years ago[3]. It's called an "APL Vadis Enum" or > something -- it's Latin, of which I don't speak, and the card's at home, 'Vade mecum'? Roughly that means 'go with me' -- i.e. a handbook or card or whatever you carry around with you. Sounds like a good find anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:39:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:39:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427CD930.6000707@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 7, 5 10:05:20 am Message-ID: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > ... > > Mine produced smoke too :( Where did yours smoke from? I want to get > > mine working again. It seemed to have come from the CRT section. I'll > > bet I have a smoked cap somewhere. > > I didn't see any smoke. The previous owner reported it, so it was just > speculation on my part that it was dust cooking off the CRT neck. I still wonder about the diodes/capacitors (assuming a conventional circuit) in the raster correction area.... > > A very common problem reported is that the switching power supply > sometimes wouldn't start oscillating and it would result in a cooked > machine. If an SMPSU fails to oscillate, it gives no outputs (well, an isolating one does anyway, and anyone who designs a computer that's not isolated from the mains input is criminally insane!). It will not cook anything else. But it'll probalby blow its own chopper transistor and assorted other parts... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:12:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:12:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 6, 5 08:50:45 pm Message-ID: > There were also a series of early commercial packaged games for the PC > sold on the IBM label. I have the 'Strategy Games' diskette sold by > IBM, and also Microsoft Adventure, which is the regular 'UNIX' adventure I haev (somewhere) the same Microsoft Adventure (and so-labelled) for the TRS-80 moduel 1. It's a self-booting disk, with strange sector numbers so it's so-say copy protected. Hmm... I also rememeber a Microsoft Decathlon game for the Model 1. I have no idea if it was ever availble on the PC. It was great for ruining keyboards, though (for the 'running' events, you had to press 1 and 2 alternately as quickly as possible...) I don't think I ever had that one, though, just saw it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 17:40:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:40:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <20050507085652.U53044@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 7, 5 08:58:55 am Message-ID: > Cassette BASIC did not include any built-in support for disk drives. > 'course it did have peek and poke, with which you could do "anything", > including talk to the FDC, or put machine language code into memory. I'd love to see you talk to the disk controller with peek and poke :-). It's not memory mapped. You need the port I/O commands which were something like INP and OUT.... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 7 18:11:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:11:56 -0400 Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <20050507085939.O53044@shell.lmi.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050507085939.O53044@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/7/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 6 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > There were a useful number of BASIC programs included with DOS 1.0. The > > amoritzation program comes to mind. > > There were also some early games. > > Don't forget "DONKEY"! Or "GORILLA" -ethan From allain at panix.com Sat May 7 19:11:50 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:11:50 -0400 Subject: Yet another reason... References: Message-ID: <010501c55362$88b9b720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ...I've got is two pair of LCD shutter-glasses, one for... Every once in a while I see PeeCee VGA controller cards with an extra 1/8" phono jack on them. Wonder what the probability is that those are for synching Stereo shutters? There are millions of moderate cost DigiCams out there with ~$50 cost color eyepiece monitors in them. Why can't someone sell a decent NTSC monitor of the same size/price, or the glasses? John A. From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 7 19:13:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 17:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: <427D34BF.nailCYZ1195WD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > I'm not sure where (it's *not* the Aug 1976 glossy) but I think > I've seen a picture of a IMSAI next to a CDC 9762, with the > implication that they were connected. Don't know if that was an > IMSAI ad or not. > > Tim. > > (After 30 years I still think it was probably vaporware... Of course > there were non-SMD hard drives (SA4000 style) that were succesfully > interfaced to S-100 stuff.) I seem to recall reading in _Once Upon a Time in Computerland_ that they were trying to develop a hard drive interface with limited success. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tony.eros at machm.org Sat May 7 19:31:56 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:31:56 -0400 Subject: Paging... Wayne Smith In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200505080032.j480W1xI048612@dewey.classiccmp.org> Does anyone have a current email address for Wayne Smith? I've been trying a few, but I think I may have some out-of-date ones... -- Tony From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 7 19:33:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 17:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I haev (somewhere) the same Microsoft Adventure (and so-labelled) for the > TRS-80 moduel 1. It's a self-booting disk, with strange sector numbers so > it's so-say copy protected. Hmm... I have Adventure for a bunch of different platforms: Apple ][, TRS-80, Commodore, PC, etc. I like to brag about my original copy of Zork I on 8" for CP/M ;) > I also rememeber a Microsoft Decathlon game for the Model 1. I have no > idea if it was ever availble on the PC. It was great for ruining > keyboards, though (for the 'running' events, you had to press 1 and 2 > alternately as quickly as possible...) I don't think I ever had that one, > though, just saw it. I used to love playing that on the APple ][. Definitely was a keyboard and joystick killer. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From James at jdfogg.com Sat May 7 20:31:46 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 21:31:46 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459BA@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I just got a Dell Pocket PC last week and I want to > start seeking out some "classic" stuff for it. For starters, > I've done some Googling for the adventure game interpreter > ScottFree for thr PocketPC but I've come up empty. > > Does anyone have a pointer to one? Also, I'd appreciate > any links to other classic stuff for the PocketPC. Classic? PocketPC? Kinda new for "classic". I can help you out with Adventure for the Palm, and the palm is 10 years old now (or more). From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat May 7 20:33:32 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 20:33:32 -0500 Subject: Mystery board Message-ID: I have an unknown hex-height board which was included in a miscellaneous lot of PDP-8A boards I recently purchased. But there is no manufacturer's info except what looks like "K-3VO" in the lower left corner, where there is a strange looking clamp-on connector. Nothing is engraved on the metal "handles". There is a Mostek 3880 (Z80 CPU) at the upper right, too. Date codes on all the chips are '82 - '83. Here is a link to a picture of it: http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/6gj14927.jpg and a closeup: http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/aqw15714.jpg Anyone know what this board is? thanks Charles From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 7 20:50:12 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 21:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505080154.VAA15662@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I like to brag about my original copy of Zork I on 8" for CP/M ;) I fondly remember playing DUNGEON on VMS, back in my larval-stage days. I still remember my "warp to the endgame" incantation. (Get to the endgame and you get to provide a name, to which it responds with a magic password. Use the "incant" verb with the pair when in the main game and it warps you to the endgame. "incant, mouse fcjpzm" was mine; even then, the Mouse identity was at least somewhat established. I remember picking the code apart with a debugger to figure out the algorithm for turning the name into the password, though I've forgotten the algorithm itself.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 7 20:56:43 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 20:56:43 -0500 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427D71DB.80002@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>The first step was to check for any damaged components or traces, but >>none were apparent, so I just gave it a go. Before the variac police >>come and get me, it was powered up just before I received it. ... >>Miraculously, it simply just worked. I imagine the smoke that the >>original owner experience was due to dust on the CRT burning off. I >>have no other explanation. ... >> dead (I should mention I scoped the read logic and it was detecting > > It's one possibilty. It could also have been a lot of other things, drive > or controller related. Personally, I'd have done a lot more tests before > twiddling anything (but then again, I once spent an afternoon figuring > out why a CBM 8250 was ubreliable on one drive, only to find the cause > was dirty heads...) True, in an ideal world I would have the time to do stuff like that. For my job I get paid to spend the time to do things right. For home projects where I can sometimes go weeks without a free hour and more typically have one to two hours a night to tinker, I get a lot more fast and loose. Tony, as far as I can tell, your job *is* answering cctalk questions. :-) >>transitions). I finally just twiddled with the speed pot to find that >>the speed was way off. Although incandescents have a lot of glow during >>the power line's zero crossing, near the right speed I could see the >>strobe pattern well enough. The real reason I couldn't see the pattern >>was that the speed had been so far off. > > Did it look like it'd been twiddled before? If not, then I wonder if some > other component (capacitor?) is failing, and the speed will therefore > drift again. There was no seal on the pot so there is no way to tell if it had been adjusted. It very well might drift later. For now my concern is to recover the data off the disks, and my quick and dirty adjustment has served its purpose. If I was spending a lot of time using the machine I'd be more concerned about it. > ... >>Now the main problem is pincushioning and color convergence. I did some >>simple adjustments to improve color convergence, but without doing >>something much more involved, it isn't possible to get all regions to >>converge at the same time. For now I'll just live with the problem. > > > Assuming this is an in-line gun CRT, you normally use the ring magnets on > the back of the yoke to do the static (centre) convergence, then > tilt/wedge the yoke to get the edges right. But sort out that > pincushioning -- which could well be a component failure in the raster > correction circuit -- first. > > Most colour monitors, at least over here, followed pretty standard > designs at that time. If the monitor was built by a consumer electronics > compeany (NEC, Hitachi, Zenith, etc), look at the service manuals for > contemporary TVs from the same manufacturer. I have the service manual that compucolor put out for the machine. they give a procedure for doing a quick and dirty alignment (twiddle four pots corresponding to convergence in the top, bottom, left, and right sides of the screen) and a more involved one if the quick and dirty one doesn't work. It didn't involve adjusting yoke magnets, just pots. Tony you may shake your head at my cavalier attitude about the state of the hardware, but I feel like what I'm doing isn't harming the machine and if I (or the next owner) wants to do it right, I haven't precluded that. My only interest right now is archiving what I can (scanning manuals, capturing disks, etc.) From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 7 21:01:44 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 21:01:44 -0500 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427D7308.3000802@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> >>>On Sat, 7 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: >>> >>> >> >>... >> >>>Mine produced smoke too :( Where did yours smoke from? I want to get >>>mine working again. It seemed to have come from the CRT section. I'll >>>bet I have a smoked cap somewhere. >> >>I didn't see any smoke. The previous owner reported it, so it was just >>speculation on my part that it was dust cooking off the CRT neck. > > > I still wonder about the diodes/capacitors (assuming a conventional > circuit) in the raster correction area.... > > >>A very common problem reported is that the switching power supply >>sometimes wouldn't start oscillating and it would result in a cooked >>machine. > > > If an SMPSU fails to oscillate, it gives no outputs (well, an isolating > one does anyway, and anyone who designs a computer that's not isolated > from the mains input is criminally insane!). It will not cook anything > else. But it'll probalby blow its own chopper transistor and assorted > other parts... When I said it results in a cooked computer, I didn't mean to say it fried the whole thing, it just broke it. I believe the failure mechanism is exactly as you say, the commutating transistor in the switcher overheats and dies. The compucolor also another failure mode; it is a rare example of how a software bug can cause physical damage. The compucolor logic is stuffed inside a normal TV case (there are even empty holes for tint/brightness/contrast along the bottom and a convenient carrying handle on the top) with the board driving baseband video to the normal TV logic. The CRT timing is generated by a chip that has timing registers loaded from an on-chip ROM. However, the CPU is free to write new values to the timing registers, and if the wrong value is entered, it causes something dire to happen in the TV section's logic (eg, if the horizontal frequency is too low then the flyback transformer's impedence drops and draws a lot of current and smokes). From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 7 21:16:30 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 22:16:30 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459BA@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <002601c55373$f2b834b0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Not the PocketPC itself (although Windows CE is about 10 years old by now), but classic emulators for it. I'm sure that there are a lot of emulations you can do on PDA platforms. One that comes to mind is the KIM-1, or maybe even a CP/M emulator if running the PDA in "landscape" mode. I actually downloaded the SDK for the PocketPC platform so I can see if I can get the Altair32 running on it. It's going to be a challenge fitting the Altair32 into a QVGA screen. Anyway, I felt that running the Scott Adams text adventure games in an emulator qualified as "classic". {OK, a bit of Googling proved that Windows CE 1.0 was introduced in November 1996. I'm going with the fact that it was in beta in 1995). Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Fogg Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC > I just got a Dell Pocket PC last week and I want to > start seeking out some "classic" stuff for it. For starters, > I've done some Googling for the adventure game interpreter > ScottFree for thr PocketPC but I've come up empty. > > Does anyone have a pointer to one? Also, I'd appreciate > any links to other classic stuff for the PocketPC. Classic? PocketPC? Kinda new for "classic". I can help you out with Adventure for the Palm, and the palm is 10 years old now (or more). From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 7 21:28:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 21:28:59 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: <002601c55373$f2b834b0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <002f01c55375$b12024c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > {OK, a bit of Googling proved that Windows CE 1.0 was introduced in > November 1996. I'm going with the fact that it was in beta in 1995). Yes, but I've said time and time again that there isn't a "10 year rule" here anymore. 10 year limit just doesn't work, it's gotta be "classic". Jay From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat May 7 21:39:15 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:39:15 -0400 Subject: compucolor References: <427D7308.3000802@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002501c55377$20d26480$3a92a8c0@maggie> I have a spare logic board for one of these. it was a neat unit til the tube failed;) if someone is looking to get a dead machine running, please contact me off-list regards, -h From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 7 22:00:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <427D34BF.nailCYZ1195WD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <59064.207.145.53.202.1115521211.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Sellam wrote: > I seem to recall reading in _Once Upon a Time in Computerland_ that they > were trying to develop a hard drive interface with limited success. For anyone that is interested in the history of microcomputers, that book is a MUST READ! I had no idea when I got it at a used bookstore just how amazing the story would be. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 7 22:03:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 20:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59154.207.145.53.202.1115521390.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Charles wrote: > But there > is no manufacturer's info except what looks like "K-3VO" in the > lower left corner, That doesn't tell you anything about the manufacturer of the product. It just indicates the flame-resistance of the PCB material, or some such thing. I don't even have a SWAG as to what that card is. I'm a little dubious about it belonging in a PDP-8/a, but I suppose anything is possible. Eric From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 7 22:18:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 23:18:20 -0400 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) Message-ID: <0IG5002LBII27VH3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:13:31 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sat, 7 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I'm not sure where (it's *not* the Aug 1976 glossy) but I think >> I've seen a picture of a IMSAI next to a CDC 9762, with the >> implication that they were connected. Don't know if that was an >> IMSAI ad or not. >> >> Tim. >> >> (After 30 years I still think it was probably vaporware... Of course >> there were non-SMD hard drives (SA4000 style) that were succesfully >> interfaced to S-100 stuff.) I've seen a vanilla S100 box with a CDC hawk on it back around '79. Seems the interface was partially external and the S100 interface made the bus interface. The system was not a commercial product but, the hawk disk and the controller was. A similar idea was used for RK05 drives to DEC boxen. Allison From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Sat May 7 23:07:18 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 15:07:18 +1100 Subject: Decathlon on the TRS-80 was Re: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: References: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050508150718.009934a0@pop-server> >I also rememeber a Microsoft Decathlon game for the Model 1. I have no >idea if it was ever availble on the PC. It was great for ruining >keyboards, though (for the 'running' events, you had to press 1 and 2 >alternately as quickly as possible...) I don't think I ever had that one, >though, just saw it. I remember playing that a LOT on my Model III with my brother. Yes, it did eventually kill several keys. If I remember correctly it was possible to hit your player in the head the both the shot put and discus, to which the game would respond with "I have a headache" or something similar. From memory the original was a self booting disc, though the copy that came with my Model III was modified to run from TRSDOS. I think there was a similar PC version, also a self booting disc. I think I downloaded a disc image from somewhere, but I never got around to trying it it. From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 00:20:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <002601c55373$f2b834b0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Not the PocketPC itself (although Windows CE is about 10 years old by > now), but classic emulators for it. I'm sure that there are a lot of > emulations you can do on PDA platforms. One that comes to mind is the > KIM-1, or maybe even a CP/M emulator if running the PDA in "landscape" > mode. Heck, I have an Apple //e emulator on my Psion Series 5. It turns it into a miniature Apple //e :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tiziano.garuti at tin.it Sun May 8 01:27:27 2005 From: tiziano.garuti at tin.it (Tiziano) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 08:27:27 +0200 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster References: <200505071700.j47H025S044811@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003801c55397$014feef0$43457450@tizianoxp> Hi to everybody, I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the pictures problem you are talking about. First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, thanks to Sellam. My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a lot of my own pictures, a lot of users pictures, a lot of pictures taken from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have any kind of credits or references. In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your site without any kind of problems. My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my intent is clear. Tix www.1000bit.net From news at computercollector.com Sun May 8 02:16:55 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 03:16:55 -0400 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <003801c55397$014feef0$43457450@tizianoxp> Message-ID: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> There is something I don't understand. How can you have a policy that "all the material present on the site is absolutely freely usable" if the site includes material your users didn't give permission to share? If I were to post information or photos on your site, I would assume it's only for that purpose. It is unethical to open-source things that you don't own. That is stealing. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tiziano Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:27 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster Hi to everybody, I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the pictures problem you are talking about. First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, thanks to Sellam. My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a lot of my own pictures, a lot of users pictures, a lot of pictures taken from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have any kind of credits or references. In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your site without any kind of problems. My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my intent is clear. Tix www.1000bit.net From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 12:05:35 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: <20050506170535.8D2DE70C6830@bitsavers.org> > Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. Because their drives were crap, and they are dead, dead, dead (good riddance) "Never buy a drive from a vendor starting with 'M'" Seagate and Quantum have honorary M's in their names, too. I just made the mistake of buying three 300 gig Seagates. One was DOA, the others are very picky about operating temperature ( I have to run them in open air with the logic board facing up). They also will only run on firewire bridge boards in with a G4 powermac (they hang the system on any of the internal PATA busses). Hitachi 400's worked perfectly (I have 4 running in this machine right now). No doubt one of them will crap out now that I've posted this. The only recent IBM/Hitachi drives I know of that were dogs were 120's made in Hungary (the ones from Thailand are fine). From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 15:01:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BDS C Message-ID: <20050506200132.76C0670C6857@bitsavers.org> > It should be on a short list of historically significant software. Indeed.. Leor released the sources to it a year or two ago as well. From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 6 07:11:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 14:11:09 +0200 Subject: SMD (was Re: All things ESDI) In-Reply-To: References: <200505041821.j44ILmK1001848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <575131af05050506337bdcd8a9@mail.gmail.com> <427AB2E2.nailFB7119BCS@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <575131af05050517451344e872@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 May 2005 10:10:38 +0200, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/5/05, Liam Proven wrote: >> > The ESDI interface was sort-of like a slightly scaled down SMD >> interface. >> >> SMD? > > SMD was another drive interface of 20-something years ago I think we used SMD-drives on our kongsberg SM-4 and KS-500 minicomputers as early as 1976, but I am not quite certain. The drives in question were top-loaders with 5-disk Memorex diskpacks. Stored something like 40MB. ... > > SMD drives were uncommon for PC-class hardware, but were quite common > for minicomputers, especially in the PDP-11 and VAX worlds where > people didn't want to pay DEC's prices for DEC's disks. I have a couple of Nestar fileservers with 120MB Priam 14" drives. That is probably as close as you get to PCs using SMD - the diskless PCs booted off the fileserver. Does anybody know the bus specs for the Nestar servers? They were not willing to give out any detailed hardware information, and their software developer kit was way too expensive. The operating system was Merlin (not the OS/2 version, this was mid-1980's, something vaguely Unix-like on the surface of it) running on a 6800 processor. -- Bj?rn From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 6 12:32:44 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:32:44 -0500 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... Message-ID: >Hi > Why doesn't anyone mention Micropolus. On, I think it was >2G drives, we had 100% failure in 2 weeks. >Dwight One of our local companies APS went out of business after the Micropolis debacle. I heard they had hundreds of Micropolis drives they had replaced under warrantee and when Micropolis went under they were stuck with bad drives and no repair, replacement, or money. Mike From tix at 1000bit.net Sat May 7 02:44:07 2005 From: tix at 1000bit.net (Tix) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 09:44:07 +0200 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster Message-ID: <003b01c552d8$8da065c0$64457450@tizianoxp> Hi to everybody, I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the pictures problem you are talking about. First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, thanks to Sellam. My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a lot my own pictures, a lot of users' pictures, a lot of pictures taken from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have any kind of credits or references. In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your site without any kind of problems. My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my intent is clear. Tix www.1000bit.net From tix at 1000bit.net Sat May 7 14:54:19 2005 From: tix at 1000bit.net (Tix) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 21:54:19 +0200 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster References: <200505071700.j47H025S044811@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001d01c5533e$8fda3fd0$33457450@tizianoxp> Hi to everybody, I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the pictures problem you are talking about. First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, thanks to Sellam. My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a lot my own pictures, a lot of users' pictures, a lot of pictures taken from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have any kind of credits or references. In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your site without any kind of problems. My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my intent is clear. Tix www.1000bit.net From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 6 15:19:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 22:19:09 +0200 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net> <427AB86E.9B26F49B@msm.umr.edu> <032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 May 2005 03:53:16 +0200, Jay West wrote: > > I don't own the original Pick PC. But I do have an original distribution > of "Pick on the PC/XT", the first release, personally handed to my by > Dick. Should have had him autograph it. In the same binder as the OS > distribution, I acquired a copy of the ASSEMBLER account - something > they tried not to make available. > Can anybody tell me anything about the connection between Pick and Revelation? I never saw Pick on a PC, but I have Revelation (for MS-DOS) as well as Advanced Revelation multisuser for both OS/2 and DOS. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 6 15:29:38 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 22:29:38 +0200 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <427BBD90.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> <427BBD90.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 May 2005 20:55:12 +0200, woodelf wrote: >> > Speaking of old HD's don't forget many old drives had special > drivers that hacked into DOS. So save the drivers and formating > stuff and DOS now* before your HD fails. > Ben alias woodelf > * A good use for your paper take punch :) > I think I may have some which my wife thinks I should let myself be persuaded to part with. She's OK, though - she is a passable geek in her own right. I also should be able to find in my basement a prototype of an RMS 2.5MB disk drive and a separate data separator for it. I have been clinging to it all since I paid a small fortune for it during a visit to the fledgeling factory. -- -bv From tomj at wps.com Sun May 8 03:13:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 01:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BDS C In-Reply-To: <20050506200132.76C0670C6857@bitsavers.org> References: <20050506200132.76C0670C6857@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050508010116.T10273@localhost> On Fri, 6 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: >> It should be on a short list of historically significant software. > > Indeed.. > > Leor released the sources to it a year or two ago as well. A cool guy as always. It can be found here: http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html The README is pretty informative if you don't have the time: http://www.bdsoft.com/dist/bdsc-readme.txt I distinctly recall evaluating BDS against Whitesmith's 7-pass compiler. I don't recall the specific results, but I do remember it being difficult to operate, sloooooooow, fussy, and expensive. We ended up using BDS. From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun May 8 03:55:23 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 01:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eric Smith, are you there? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050508085523.65130.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Eric? I apparently cannot make contact with your other email address, so I'll try here. I haven't received payment yet (2 months!) for that printer I sent you. Please respond. Steve. --- Eric Smith wrote: > > I meant to email you yesterday. Apparently it > arrived a long time > ago, but the staff at Mail Boxes Etc. didn't put a > slip in my box, > so it went unnoticed until I specifically asked them > to try to find > it. So the postal service is not at fault this > time. > > I'll put a check in the mail to you tonight. > > Best regards, > Eric > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun May 8 06:37:36 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 07:37:36 -0400 Subject: Mystery board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427DFA00.5000008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Well, I cannot tell exactly what it is, but there are lots of clues: Not Qbus, it's a hex board. Well, I have actually seen some custom backplanes that are six wide and use qbus cards, but that is pretty rare. Very few external connectors that I can see. Probably not disk/tape. At least three types of memory, although I cannot read the numbers. It looks like a bank of 8 dynamic memory chips, then three static ram and finally an EPROM. I'll bet on the top edge is the Z80, but the I/O chip next to it (if that is what it is) would give some more clues. It would be good to see if the crystal is divided for various baud rates, and if the connector on top has 8 bits or is serial. the missing chip on the upper left might be serial i/o. best guess, some sort of intelligent slave serial communications I/O processor. But it's just a guess. Joe Heck Charles wrote: > I have an unknown hex-height board which was included in a > miscellaneous lot of PDP-8A boards I recently purchased. But there > is no manufacturer's info except what looks like "K-3VO" in the > lower left corner, where there is a strange looking clamp-on > connector. Nothing is engraved on the metal "handles". There is a > Mostek 3880 (Z80 CPU) at the upper right, too. Date codes on all > the chips are '82 - '83. > > Here is a link to a picture of it: > http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/6gj14927.jpg > > and a closeup: > http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/aqw15714.jpg > > Anyone know what this board is? > > thanks > Charles > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 8 06:37:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:37:11 +0000 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1115552231.10961.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 03:16 -0400, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > There is something I don't understand. > > How can you have a policy that "all the material present on the site is > absolutely freely usable" if the site includes material your users didn't > give permission to share? If I were to post information or photos on your > site, I would assume it's only for that purpose. Personally I'd assume the opposite though - if I joined the site and put my pictures up without any kind of copyright/use statement, anyone should be able to use them as they see fit. (not saying that my view or your view are wrong, just that there are different ways of looking at it) The bad part is if someone provides material for the site and supplies images which aren't theirs, ripped off from other sites where a copyright/use statement is present. As a webmaster Tix probably doesn't / can't have much control over that - except for the reasonable request that if someone objects to content it will be removed. cheers Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 8 06:42:01 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 07:42:01 -0400 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <003801c55397$014feef0$43457450@tizianoxp> Message-ID: <000801c553c2$f2f2b3c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I can tell you as fact that many of the Northstar and Altair docs came from my collection. Annoyed...yes. Did I try to do something about it...no. The more places that this information is available, the better it is for everyone. It's like free mirroring. I had the same discussion with Dynacompcorp on eBay who is selling compilation CDs including material of mine (and my emulator). He didn't ask permission to redistribute the documents and emulator from my Web site but again, it's a convenience for those who don't have broadband to D/L a 12mb file. And, it gets it into the hands of another "customer" so to speak. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tiziano Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:27 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster Hi to everybody, I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the pictures problem you are talking about. First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, thanks to Sellam. My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a lot of my own pictures, a lot of users pictures, a lot of pictures taken from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have any kind of credits or references. In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your site without any kind of problems. My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my intent is clear. Tix www.1000bit.net From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 8 06:45:40 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 07:45:40 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Last night after some googling I came up with a //e emulator and a "Pocket Atari 2600". There's also a pocket C64, including a "commercial" one from Commodore. There are some others, like a pocket Sinclair. There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME emulator. I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 1:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC On Sat, 7 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Not the PocketPC itself (although Windows CE is about 10 years old by > now), but classic emulators for it. I'm sure that there are a lot of > emulations you can do on PDA platforms. One that comes to mind is the > KIM-1, or maybe even a CP/M emulator if running the PDA in "landscape" > mode. Heck, I have an Apple //e emulator on my Psion Series 5. It turns it into a miniature Apple //e :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 8 07:04:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 12:04:28 +0000 Subject: Yet another reason... In-Reply-To: <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200505051631.j45GVHVe014779@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050506213442.6ace508e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1115553868.10961.38.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-06 at 21:34 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Thu, 5 May 2005 12:31:57 -0400 > "Computer Collector Newsletter" wrote: > > > ...Why that "ten year rule" no longer applies: Java. > > > > http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/05/05/HNjavaat10_1.html > > > > I can already hear the moans of "hear we go again" but I figured this > > example is amusing enough... I recall that last time we sort of agreed > > that date alone is hardly what makes something "vintage". I still > > concur. > > > > Oh, I dunno. There's a certain folkloric amusement in collecting > examples of early Java hype. It's kinda like looking back at old issues > of Mondo 2000 magazine. Was there anything 'java' *except* hype for the > first few years? Well, back in 1996 I was involved in a large client-server Java project for a company that attempted to drag SSA's business planning / control software into something resembling modern times... Their software was all based on AS/400s with users sitting at dumb terminals at this time; the only way for us to intelligently talk to the back-end servers was via screen-scraping middleware. Long story short though, we ended up with about 30k lines of client and server Java code, plus a million or so lines of autogenerated code to produce the screen layouts which mimiced the fields that a user of a dumb terminal would see, with the client-side code all running in a browser. It was probably one of the first serious attempts anywhere at server- side Java, as well as one of the biggest Java apps around, and certainly proved that the technology worked. (I remember we got early access to Sun's attempts at a Java NC, and they were bloody awful bits of equipment) SSA's big clients were using all sorts of hardware alongside the big AS/400 systems and terminals, so the fact we could run on anything that supported a Java VM was a definite bonus. Of course it was too little too late for SSA; they'd spent the preceding years just selling the same old stuff whilst competitors like SAP were moving with the times... cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 8 07:46:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:46:35 -0400 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <000801c553c2$f2f2b3c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000801c553c2$f2f2b3c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <427E0A2B.nailIUL11OUGE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I can tell you as a fact that many of the Northstar and Altair docs > came from my collection. There's a thin line... acknowledgment of effort is always good. But if I have a manual (or have made a scan of the manual) I feel that the effort I put in is absolutely negligible compared to the original authors/compilers effort in writing and assembling and publishing the document in the first place. We're just custodians, mostly. What we might feel that we own, in terms of scanning old docs, is any value added by the assembly of multiple related docs and indexing, cross-indexing, etc. between docs and between docs and the "wide world". I think that there is much that we all can contribute in continuing to make this stuff accessible and relevant. Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 8 07:26:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:26:02 -0400 Subject: My *weirdest* find *ever*!!! In-Reply-To: <012e01c55312$08918b40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050507094323.03cbf1c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050508082602.0150bea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:35 PM 5/7/05 +0100, Jim wrote: > >>From: "Roger Merchberger" > >> Between taxes and selling my JCB backhoe, > >Good to see someone supporting the British economy for a change - we need to >get some of our cash back from Microsoft...... What for? Like any government, they can simply print more when they want it! Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 8 07:57:26 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:57:26 -0400 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <003b01c552d8$8da065c0$64457450@tizianoxp> References: <003b01c552d8$8da065c0$64457450@tizianoxp> Message-ID: <427E0CB6.nailIY01KHLC1@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" ??? At the bottom of every single web page, there's the notice Copyright C 1998-2004 All rights reserved You don't say what's copyrighted, so many would assume (incorrectly) that the materials are owned by you, and that they may not be redistributed without your permission, and that if they're found on any other website that the other website is infringing on your copyright. I realized that most of this is probably a language barrier issue, but claiming copyright over others' materials is not a good thing. Undoubtedly parts of the website and its organization are copyrighted by you, maybe you meant that, but you should be absolutely clear what you are claiming copyright on. Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 8 08:19:02 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 09:19:02 -0400 Subject: BDS C In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 08 May 2005 01:13:48 PDT." <20050508010116.T10273@localhost> Message-ID: <200505081319.j48DJ29J025758@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > >I distinctly recall evaluating BDS against Whitesmith's 7-pass >compiler. I don't recall the specific results, but I do remember >it being difficult to operate, sloooooooow, fussy, and expensive. >We ended up using BDS. Not really a fair comparison, imho. but both products changed my life :-) Whitesmith's was out much earlier and did, in fact work. It was just really slow on floppies. And it was available on rt-11/rsts, which turned out to be really handy. BDS was fast, but not as complete. I ended up using BDS for most production work. (it was "load and go fortran" for s-100 :-) An amazing product for the time. Much like "Think C" for macintosh. -brad From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun May 8 08:35:11 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:35:11 +0100 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <26c11a640505080635638ff169@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/05, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Last night after some googling I came up with a //e emulator and a > "Pocket Atari 2600". There's also a pocket C64, including a "commercial" > one from Commodore. There are some others, like a pocket Sinclair. > There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME > emulator. > > I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 1:20 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC > > On Sat, 7 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > Not the PocketPC itself (although Windows CE is about 10 years old by > > now), but classic emulators for it. I'm sure that there are a lot of > > emulations you can do on PDA platforms. One that comes to mind is the > > KIM-1, or maybe even a CP/M emulator if running the PDA in "landscape" > > > mode. > > Heck, I have an Apple //e emulator on my Psion Series 5. It turns it > into a miniature Apple //e :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > It depends on how big your pockets are, but this is a fun machine and it runs BBC Basic and has a cp/m emulator. Not only that it's even on topic. http://www.ncus.org.uk/ Dan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 8 08:44:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 09:44:03 -0400 Subject: Mystery board Message-ID: <0IG600FOGBGR02M3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Mystery board > From: joe heck > Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 07:37:36 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Well, I cannot tell exactly what it is, but there are lots of clues: > >Not Qbus, it's a hex board. Well, I have actually seen some custom >backplanes that are six wide and use qbus cards, but that is pretty rare. > >Very few external connectors that I can see. Probably not disk/tape. > >At least three types of memory, although I cannot read the numbers. It >looks like a bank of 8 dynamic memory chips, then three static ram and >finally an EPROM. I'll bet on the top edge is the Z80, but the I/O chip >next to it (if that is what it is) would give some more clues. > >It would be good to see if the crystal is divided for various baud >rates, and if the connector on top has 8 bits or is serial. the missing >chip on the upper left might be serial i/o. best guess, some sort of >intelligent slave serial communications I/O processor. > >But it's just a guess. > >Joe Heck > >Charles wrote: > >> I have an unknown hex-height board which was included in a >> miscellaneous lot of PDP-8A boards I recently purchased. But there >> is no manufacturer's info except what looks like "K-3VO" in the >> lower left corner, where there is a strange looking clamp-on >> connector. Nothing is engraved on the metal "handles". There is a >> Mostek 3880 (Z80 CPU) at the upper right, too. Date codes on all >> the chips are '82 - '83. >> >> Here is a link to a picture of it: >> http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/6gj14927.jpg >> >> and a closeup: >> http://img2.imageweb.info/img2/aqw15714.jpg >> >> Anyone know what this board is? >> >> thanks >> Charles >> Another SWAG is a cp/m board for a UNIBUS VAX class system. Actually got to use one once. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 8 09:10:42 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 07:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <427E0A2B.nailIUL11OUGE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at "May 8, 5 08:46:35 am" Message-ID: <200505081410.HAA16418@floodgap.com> > > I can tell you as a fact that many of the Northstar and Altair docs > > came from my collection. > > There's a thin line... acknowledgment of effort is always good. But > if I have a manual (or have made a scan of the manual) I feel that the > effort I put in is absolutely negligible compared to the original > authors/compilers effort in writing and assembling and publishing the > document in the first place. In my particular case, the images of the Commodore 232 were provided to me by actual owners. The policy on SWoC has always been to get both the original contributor's permission as well as my own, which is clearly noted on each page. Refer to the policy at http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/note.html This policy actually has been specifically cited by a number of contributors as being the only reason they submitted stuff to me, as they know that it will be handled respectfully, and I do my darndest to preserve that because Secret Weapons of Commodore wouldn't exist without their generosity. For that reason, since I'm on the subject, please remove these images from 1000bit.net, as they were secured without permission: * Back view and "A detail" from the Commodore 232 entry. These were improperly used from http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/x64.html (the detail image is the backplate image I cropped) If you like, I can ask the original contributor if he objects, but until he gives his approval, they should be taken down until I have confirmation. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From unibus at gmail.com Sun May 8 09:20:16 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 00:20:16 +1000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 21, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <200505061700.j46H02pa033843@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505061700.j46H02pa033843@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "Witchy" > > Anyone have pointers to the manuals on the net. > > I've got some GIGI manuals on my webserver somewhere if you get stuck. I would be interested as I bought one many years ago from Monash University and never had any manuals. Its been sitting in storage for years in my shed as I never had any info or a display. Regards, Garry Page From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 8 10:10:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 11:10:37 -0400 Subject: Mystery board In-Reply-To: <59154.207.145.53.202.1115521390.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <59154.207.145.53.202.1115521390.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On 5/7/05, Eric Smith wrote: > Charles wrote: > > But there > > is no manufacturer's info except what looks like "K-3VO" in the > > lower left corner, > > I don't even have a SWAG as to what that card is. I'm a little dubious > about it belonging in a PDP-8/a, but I suppose anything is possible. Well... given that there are no connections whatsoever on the front to the signals on the 'F' finger, and only a few (power and ground) on 'E', that resembles a hex-height OMNBUS layout. The fact that the off-board connectors are by the 'F' finger is also suggestive of a PDP-8/a OMNIBUS (Unibus cards would have a Unibus connector there; the PDP-8/a chassis has a hole out the back, and no backplane connectors on 'F') The presence of the 2114s and 2016s (SRAM) plus the individual gold coax connectors suggests to me that this is a frame buffer. Perhaps you could hook an o-scope to one or two of the leads and apply voltages to the board and see if it pumps out anything that resembles sync signals. Never seen this board before; I'll be curious to hear what you find. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 8 10:34:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 11:34:34 -0400 Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I like to brag about my original copy of Zork I on 8" for CP/M ;) Nice. I have an original Personal Software-published disk and manual for the TRS-80. I once saw "Planetfall" on the wall of the local DEC store for RT-11. Never seen any other Infocom games for the PDP-11 anywhere else. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 11:10:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > There is something I don't understand. > > How can you have a policy that "all the material present on the site is > absolutely freely usable" if the site includes material your users didn't > give permission to share? If I were to post information or photos on your > site, I would assume it's only for that purpose. > > It is unethical to open-source things that you don't own. That is stealing. I don't presume to speak for Tiziano but I think the intent was that anything that was uploaded was supposed to be owned by the uploader and was to be made freely downloadable by visitors and other users. Tiziano perhaps didn't think that people would be uploading content they found elsewhere on the Internet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 8 11:32:21 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:32:21 -0500 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <003801c55397$014feef0$43457450@tizianoxp> <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050508112320.051ff048@mail> At 02:16 AM 5/8/2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >There is something I don't understand. >It is unethical to open-source things that you don't own. That is stealing. Having argued about piracy for a few decades, I can assure you that it is much harder to argue about intellectual property issues when there's a language barrier. Nearly impossible. This sort of harvesting and re-aggregating of web site material is endless these days, particularly when people get an itch to harvest "free money" from affiliate programs. A lot of it is automated. - John From James at jdfogg.com Sun May 8 11:47:48 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:47:48 -0400 Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> I've been offered a TeleType Model 15 or 19 with Western Union markings. Does anyone know if this can be used as a printing terminal with a computer? I'm guessing it'd be current-loop and not RS232. From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 11:46:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Last night after some googling I came up with a //e emulator and a > "Pocket Atari 2600". There's also a pocket C64, including a "commercial" > one from Commodore. There are some others, like a pocket Sinclair. > There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME > emulator. Oh yeah? Post some links! :) > I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. Install CP/M-86 on a Poqet PC ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 11:49:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <26c11a640505080635638ff169@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Dan Williams wrote: > It depends on how big your pockets are, but this is a fun machine and > it runs BBC Basic and has a cp/m emulator. Not only that it's even on > topic. > > http://www.ncus.org.uk/ That's in the portable class. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 11:52:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I like to brag about my original copy of Zork I on 8" for CP/M ;) > > Nice. I have an original Personal Software-published disk and manual > for the TRS-80. I once saw "Planetfall" on the wall of the local DEC > store for RT-11. Never seen any other Infocom games for the PDP-11 > anywhere else. Oooh, as far as I know that's the first commercially published version of Zork. Very nice. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 8 12:04:29 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:04:29 -0500 Subject: digital items Message-ID: <00e101c553f0$01238a50$08406b43@66067007> Today while checking out the bus I found a digital VaxServer 4000-200 and a R215F cabinet with drives on the floor under a pile of stuff. Not sure of the working condition yet, anyone have some info on the VaxServer? Thanks From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 8 12:15:43 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 13:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, James Fogg wrote: > I've been offered a TeleType Model 15 or 19 with Western Union markings. > Does anyone know if this can be used as a printing terminal with a > computer? I'm guessing it'd be current-loop and not RS232. > James - this can definitely be used with any machine having a serial port and that can be coerced (somehow) into talking in 45.45 baud ITA2 5-level code.... you'll need to key the unit with a current of 60Ma at around 115VDC. Much modern hardware exists for this purpose. Go here: www.rtty.com for a ton of info and links to several programs and hardware interfaces for this, and I'd suggest subscribing to the Greenkeys maillist - which you can also do from the RTTY pages. Also, you can go to www.shoutcast.com and search on the word 'teletype' for an audio-coded (AFSK) stream of news and info via Baudot code... you'll need any of the popular RTTY decoding programs (I use TrueTTY or MTTY) and of course Winamp or something to get the audio decoded. Of course the output of these will be to your screen, or a file which can be printed later. The model 15 (and it's UK Creed analogs) were the first computer printing I/O devices, plus they're getting rather rare nowadays. Many of us here on Classiccmp are also ClatterPrinter lovers, as well as hams who are into radio retro-tech. I personally have a Model 19, a 15, a 26, four 28s and a 35. Not all running at once though - can you imagine the Noise that would make??? I also have the complete docset for the Mod 15/19 and associated peripherals, desks, cabinets, etc, of you need. For sure rescue the old girl - even if it turns out it's not your cuppa - there are plenty of folks waiting to adopt these machines. Cheers John kkk From zmerch at 30below.com Sun May 8 12:18:24 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 13:18:24 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050508131419.03c99048@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Sun, 8 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. > >Install CP/M-86 on a Poqet PC ;) Being from the CoCo world, I've always wanted a pocket OS-9 machine -- I always thought that would be "the next logical upgrade" to my CoCo - and I wish Radisys/MicroWare would've ported it to the 68K palms... I could see the headlines: "OS-9: Small, Fast, Portable. Pick any 3." ;-) Speaking of them, I have a Palm3c I've been wanting to resurrect and just maybe "depalmatize" -- any good memory maps, I/O maps or somesuch for older 68K palms? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun May 8 12:32:58 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 08 May 2005 12:00:47 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >I once saw "Planetfall" on the wall of the local DEC >store for RT-11. Never seen any other Infocom games for the PDP-11 >anywhere else. > >-ethan Waaay back in 1981 I worked for a small defense contractor with an 11/03, later upgraded to 11/73. If I remember the name correctly, there was an Infocom game installed, called "Infidel" which started out in a desert somewhere in the Middle East. You had to dig into the sand to find the entrance to the tomb... -Charles From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 8 12:44:11 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 18:44:11 +0100 Subject: digital items In-Reply-To: <00e101c553f0$01238a50$08406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <006601c553f5$8c5c2870$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Keys wrote: > Today while checking out the bus I found a digital VaxServer > 4000-200 and a R215F cabinet with drives on the floor under a > pile of stuff. Not sure of the working condition yet, anyone > have some info on the VaxServer? Thanks This is the same as a VAX 4000-200 but the ROM has a byte or two that is different that allows the OS to decide that it is a VAXserver instead. The OS then has the option of restricting logins or applying the appropriate licences etc. You can find a bunch of info by search for "VAX 4000" on Manx (http://vt100.net/manx). You should also search for "KA660", which is the CPU module ID. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 8 13:05:33 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada Message-ID: Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and matching 9Trk tape drive. This is "free, come and get it" - and there are loading facilities on-site to do this. It will easily fit in the bed of most full-sized pickup trucks. We just need it to go away, fast. This gear is located in the Carson City area of northern Nevada - about a 5 hour (beautiful!) drive from the Silicon Valley. It wieghs all up about 600 pounds. For the right amount of bribe-money, I'd even consider delivering it myself. OTHERWISE, this equipment will be broken up for scrap and the cabinets taken to the junk yard - it is in storage at a friend's and he needs the space the computer is currently taking. If there is no interest by this time next week, we're going to get out the torches and the chainsaws - there are no other options. Speak up, Folks! Don't make me have to kill a rare machine!!! Cheers John From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 8 13:07:01 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada Message-ID: Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and matching 9Trk tape drive. This is "free, come and get it" - and there are loading facilities on-site to do this. It will easily fit in the bed of most full-sized pickup trucks. We just need it to go away, fast. This gear is located in the Carson City area of northern Nevada - about a 5 hour (beautiful!) drive from the Silicon Valley. It wieghs all up about 600 pounds. For the right amount of bribe-money, I'd even consider delivering it myself. OTHERWISE, this equipment will be broken up for scrap and the cabinets taken to the junk yard - it is in storage at a friend's and he needs the space the computer is currently taking. If there is no interest by this time next week, we're going to get out the torches and the chainsaws - there are no other options. Speak up, Folks! Don't make me have to kill a rare machine!!! Cheers John From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 8 13:11:37 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 13:11:37 -0500 Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada References: Message-ID: <011101c553f9$61c54ed0$08406b43@66067007> I wish you were only 5 hours from me, I would be at your front door in the morning. :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada > > Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' > commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and > matching 9Trk tape drive. > > This is "free, come and get it" - and there are loading facilities > on-site to do this. It will easily fit in the bed of most full-sized > pickup trucks. We just need it to go away, fast. > > This gear is located in the Carson City area of northern Nevada - about > a 5 hour (beautiful!) drive from the Silicon Valley. It wieghs all up > about 600 pounds. For the right amount of bribe-money, I'd even consider > delivering it myself. > > OTHERWISE, this equipment will be broken up for scrap and the cabinets > taken to the junk yard - it is in storage at a friend's and he needs the > space the computer is currently taking. > > If there is no interest by this time next week, we're going to get out > the torches and the chainsaws - there are no other options. > > Speak up, Folks! Don't make me have to kill a rare machine!!! > > > Cheers > > John > > > From stefan at mansier.net Sun May 8 06:48:29 2005 From: stefan at mansier.net (Stefan) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 13:48:29 +0200 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster In-Reply-To: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <003801c55397$014feef0$43457450@tizianoxp> <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050508134634.031fd1a8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Give it a break, its just pictures and its not like he's making a fuss about giving credits, removing it etc. If you absolutely dont want someone using a picture from your site on the internet, dont put it there..... At 09:16 8-5-2005, you wrote: >There is something I don't understand. > >How can you have a policy that "all the material present on the site is >absolutely freely usable" if the site includes material your users didn't >give permission to share? If I were to post information or photos on your >site, I would assume it's only for that purpose. > >It is unethical to open-source things that you don't own. That is stealing. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tiziano >Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:27 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster > >Hi to everybody, > I am the webmaster of 1000bit.net site, I am here to answer about the >pictures problem you are talking about. > >First of all, I would like to tell you something about me. >I am involved in this hobby since the beginning, every computer I bought is >still with me. I am one of the organizer of vintage computer events in >Italy, last year we setup the first Vintage Computer Festival in Italy, >thanks to Sellam. > >My site is online since 1998, under different urls, and this is really a >long time in internet era. In all this time many things are changed and my >policy about the use of the pictures is changed too. On my site there are a >lot of my own pictures, a lot of users pictures, a lot of pictures taken >from online auctions and some pictures sent by users. > >As you can see on my site there isn't any "copyright notice" or "picture >policy", so all the material present on the site is absolutley freely usable >and downloadable from anyone, beacuse is intended right in this way. > >In the last years I have choosed to keep track and so to give credits to any >pictures that i found on the net, but the older ones actually doesn't have >any kind of credits or references. > >In all these years no one asked me to remove pictures or something else. > >Finally, please don't get angry if you want that I remove "your" picture, >just drop me an email or better I can give you the credits to you or your >site without any kind of problems. > >My english is worse than "little rough" (thanks Dwight :-))), but I hope my >intent is clear. > >Tix >www.1000bit.net ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sun May 8 10:09:03 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 11:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System Message-ID: Dear Community, Free to a good home (knowledgeable collector): Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System with documentation Location: Upper Manhattan Condition: Previous owner said it worked when it was last turned on. -kurt From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 13:26:24 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 14:26:24 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <427E59D0.1040407@gbronline.com> Finally getting nearly up-to-date on the classiccmp mail . . . Joe R. wrote: > You may be right but I THOUGHT it was Fujitsu. Whatever it was, it's > working fine. It's already outlasted several Maxtors and Seagates. I just > checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so it doesn't > identify the actual manufacturer. Sorry, Joe, but you're mistaken. The drive you got is an IBM-branded Hitachi (as are all of the drives we used in our final 200 or so systems -- we'll be shutting down the computer facility sometime in the next couple of months). I'd have to pull some records but I'd say we used at least 500 of the IBM/Hitachi drives -- and I KNOW that we had a zero failure rate on them. Glen 0/0 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 8 13:26:13 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505081830.OAA06930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Dear Community, > Free to a good home (knowledgeable collector): > Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System with documentation Oh my, that brings back memories. Back in the early '80s, in my larval-stage years, I worked with a VAX. (It had no name - why name computers when you have only the one?) It had a Grinnell display. All of 256x240, but it had some very nice facilities I have yet to find anywhere else, and I have rather fond memories of it. No, though, I am not going to take this one. Not even for nostalgia value - if it's the one I worked with, it's Unibus and I have nothing to connect it to, and if not, it doesn't have the nostalgia value. Besides, I have no good way to get it from NYC to here in any case. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun May 8 13:35:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:35:04 -0400 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster References: <200505080713.j487DV8Q051525@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1115552231.10961.12.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17022.23512.702878.484559@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Sun, 2005-05-08 at 03:16 -0400, Computer Collector Jules> Newsletter wrote: >> There is something I don't understand. >> >> How can you have a policy that "all the material present on the >> site is absolutely freely usable" if the site includes material >> your users didn't give permission to share? If I were to post >> information or photos on your site, I would assume it's only for >> that purpose. Jules> Personally I'd assume the opposite though - if I joined the Jules> site and put my pictures up without any kind of copyright/use Jules> statement, anyone should be able to use them as they see Jules> fit. (not saying that my view or your view are wrong, just Jules> that there are different ways of looking at it) The law says you're wrong, in the USA at least. Everything is covered by copyright -- if you want to place something in the public domain, that takes an explicit action on your part. I suspect the same is true in Europe as well, since the USA copyright laws have been moving towards harmonization with European practice lately. It was true in the USA, two decades or so ago, that you had to assert copyright explicitly or you would not have it. But that is no longer the case. paul From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 13:38:47 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 14:38:47 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <64862.207.145.53.202.1115248890.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504154353.014b6b70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050504185402.01862d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <64862.207.145.53.202.1115248890.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <427E5CB7.70803@gbronline.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Joe wrote: > >>I just checked the device manager and it says that it's an IBM drive so >>it doesn't identify the actual manufacturer. > > > Sure it does. The actual manufacturer was IBM. They made their own > drives until they spun off that division as a partnership with Hitachi. Well, uh, no, Joe got the drive through me just a couple of months ago and right on the label it has both the IBM (prominently, displayed as the "brand" name) and Hitachi ("manufactured by") names. Glen 0/0 From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 8 13:49:51 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 14:49:51 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c553fe$b7d7a9d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Ok, here's a few: http://www.pdagold.com/software/list.asp?p=1&c=3&sc=37 http://www.pocketdos.com/ http://www.pocketemulator.com/ http://www.pocketgear.com/software_browse.asp?cat=96 (at the bottom: Pocket //e and 2600) http://pocketvcs.emuunlim.com/ (same as above I think but the home site) http://www.retrogames.com/pocketpc.html http://www.xt-ce.com/ http://www.zophar.net/ppc/ppc.phtml Most of these are arcade-related except for the //e XT-CE and PocketDOS ones. What I was toying with was getting XT-CE and running CP/M-86 on it. Or, if I have some time, taking the MESS distribution and developing a PPC Z80 emulation. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC On Sun, 8 May 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Last night after some googling I came up with a //e emulator and a > "Pocket Atari 2600". There's also a pocket C64, including a > "commercial" one from Commodore. There are some others, like a pocket > Sinclair. There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of > the MAME emulator. Oh yeah? Post some links! :) > I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. Install CP/M-86 on a Poqet PC ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tiziano.garuti at tin.it Sun May 8 14:10:17 2005 From: tiziano.garuti at tin.it (Tiziano) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:10:17 +0200 Subject: Public excuses from 1000bit.net webmaster (Tix) References: <200505081700.j48H06BN057152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003801c55401$92648990$8d05d33e@tizianoxp> Ok, these are the fixes done till now: - added a notice on the homepage asking to help me to fix the credits - removed the commodore 232 pictures, Cameron can you help me ? - removed the copyright notice, now there is a "NO copyright" notice. Freely usable is intended the images and the scanned material that I done myself, and the concept is to mirror all the interesting material because the sites will not be there for ever as you know. I am not always the owner of the original manuals that I scan and I don't want to be the owner of the scanned manual, I want to share these infos with other people who has my same interests. Mirroring mirroring and only mirroring, I don't sell nothing and I don't earn nothing. Tix www.1000bit.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun May 8 14:09:50 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 12:09:50 -0700 Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200505081209500675.12F8703A@192.168.42.129> Good day, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 08-May-05 at 12:47 James Fogg wrote: >I've been offered a TeleType Model 15 or 19 with Western Union markings. >Does anyone know if this can be used as a printing terminal with a >computer? I'm guessing it'd be current-loop and not RS232. That's a wonderful collectible, most definitely in the 'antique' class. I would take it for that if nothing else, as those particular machines are quite rare these days. Computer-wise? You would have to teach your computer to speak five-bit Baudot code. The 15 and 19 (a version of the 15 with a paper tape reader/punch) used it. Yes, it is current-loop, but it's 60mA as opposed to 20, and the loop voltage is 130+ DC. If you're going to get it, get it for the 'museum' value, not as an actual use-it-everyday device (unless you want to stick it on amateur radio RTTY). Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 14:17:13 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 15:17:13 -0400 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <0IG1009D1M7ANSB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IG1009D1M7ANSB6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <427E65B9.6030605@gbronline.com> Allison wrote: > Notable really bad drives. > [snip list of dog drives] In my experience, the winner is the 4.3 gig 5-1/4" form-factor Quantum Bigfoot IDE drive -- slow as molasses, 50%+ failure rate straight out of the box, and creeping crud resulting in data loss and ultimate untimely death in the few which actually would hold up long enough to withstand partitioning and formatting. I agree with you on the ST225 -- I've got around a dozen of them in and out of various systems and they are very reliable IF there is adequate ventilation. Those suckers run a little on the warm side, so if they're in a crowded environment the platters expand and contract . . . Glen 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 14:39:37 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 15:39:37 -0400 Subject: Aztec C (was Re: XT 5160) In-Reply-To: <427B9FCD.9000604@srv.net> References: <427B9FCD.9000604@srv.net> Message-ID: <427E6AF9.3000602@gbronline.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >> Yes, sorry. It was Aztec. Very neat little compiler. On more >> thought, it did NOT have a Make included, I believe I stole the >> one from Borland, or some PD make. >> >> >> Gawd, I would love a copy of that compiler again, especially if >> they used the (more or less same) codebase for several backends, >> most of which I use ;-) >> >> --f >> >> >> > Probaly not the version you are looking for, but: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/lang/lang.htm Hmm. I recall porting a fairly large application from Hitech C (CP/M-80) to Aztec C 3.02 (CP/M-86) a couple of years ago and running into all kinds of foolishness with it, particularly regarding function prototypes and struct pointers. Easy enough to fix with some conditional compilation #defines, but still a pain. Glen 0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 8 14:40:56 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:40:56 -0700 Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' >commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and >matching 9Trk tape drive. Erk! Do you have an OS or documentation with that? What about drives? Sadly Doc's and the OS are what seem to be far rarer than the systems themselves. Try to convince Sellam he needs it for spares. Thankfully I don't have room, or I'd actually be almost tempted. A emulator actually exists for the DPS-6. We used it to run production GCOS-6 software on HP9000/750's running HP-UX (either 7 or 8, I can't remember). Of course the odds of anyone getting there hands on it are probably slimmer than getting ahold of the OS. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 14:41:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, John Lawson wrote: > Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' > commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and > matching 9Trk tape drive. This is a system that I used to own but decided I'd never do anything with and realized the space it was taking up was valuable. Here's a photo of the system: http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg John graciously offered to haul and store it for list member A (who flaked) until list member B (who flaked even more) was suppose to come get it to haul it to list member A. I really do hope someone ends up taking this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 14:42:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada In-Reply-To: <011101c553f9$61c54ed0$08406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Keys wrote: > I wish you were only 5 hours from me, I would be at your front door in the > morning. :-( Shipping via ForwardAir would not be that much. It's a relatively lightweight load and would fit on one pallet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 8 14:52:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:52:39 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/8/05, Charles wrote: > On Sun, 08 May 2005 12:00:47 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: > > >I once saw "Planetfall"... for RT-11. > > Waaay back in 1981 I worked for a small defense contractor with an > 11/03, later upgraded to 11/73. If I remember the name correctly, > there was an Infocom game installed, called "Infidel" which > started out in a desert somewhere in the Middle East. You had to > dig into the sand to find the entrance to the tomb... Infidel is old enough that I can easily believe it was out for RT-11. They probably wouldn't have produced any games for it newer than about 1983 or 1984. The engine would have supported some of the later games (the small ones, known in Infocom circles as 'v3'), but I don't think they bothered to package them up. One Infidel technology tie-in... the in-game copy protection is that you get what is not described as, but is in effect, a GPS box airdropped to your character, then you go out in the desert with a map (included in the game packaging) and use the GPS to walk to the 'X' on the map. If you don't have the real paper map, your character dies of thirst before spending more than about 4-5 turns in the desert. Infocom spent a lot of time, effort, and money on these items (and at $30-$40 MSRP per game, they needed some way to encourage purchase over piracy). I have all the old game, either in the original boxed form, some folios (especially the Commodore-64 editions printed by Commodore), and the later compilations sets like "The Lost Treasures of Infocom". I do not have any of the really cool first-edition wierd boxes like the flying saucer "Starcross" package, or the plastic face "Suspended" package. I did see the flying saucer for sale at Dayton once, but they wanted more than I had in my pocket for it. -ethan (a long-time Infocom nut, and modern-day Inform developer) From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 8 14:51:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 rescue in Nevada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Due to the inability of more one individual to follow up on 'firm' > >commitments, I must now dispose of a Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe and > >matching 9Trk tape drive. > > Erk! Do you have an OS or documentation with that? What about > drives? Sadly Doc's and the OS are what seem to be far rarer than > the systems themselves. I never got docs or software with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun May 8 15:31:54 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 13:31:54 -0700 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net> <427AB86E.9B26F49B@msm.umr.edu> <032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <427E773A.EE03995F@msm.umr.edu> Revelation was written as a near singlehanded effort by a man named Roger Harpel. He wrote enough to be able to run databasic, the programming language that pick used, and made up a set of guis to do the file report generation stuff that was quite different from pick, but ran much better on a pc with two floppies. Ulimate considered buying revelation, and Microdata licensed a version of it to run on the M1000 that was pretty horrible. it still is heavily used and is marketed by revelation technologies today. Roger harpel left the pick programming industry, and I believe emmigrated to Thailand and died there as I have heard. He was not involved in computing when he passed. There are a huge amount of packages that run large chain stores such as auto parts stores, and other such chains that are pick that don't even know they are run by pick systems. Many have absorbed their own derivatives that are not known to be pick based even by their maintainers in some cases. IBM owns the biggest competitor in the unix arena to pick, Universe and unidata. They continue to thrive there. Pick systems was merged with a small has been mac database vendor, omnis and still struggles in the arena. (I have my body armour on). My background is as a system developer for pick vendors and I worked in the pick assembler system code from 1975 to 1990. I don't think a reasonable living can be made in pick these days, as most "IT" approaces to systems software and application programming comoditize the skillsets and do not recognize the innovation that pick epitomized in its heyday. You have to be somr sort of rock star these days at the top of the IT pile, and those doing the real work seem to bee treated like surfs. I have luckily had the connection to this sort of group, and I think that a lot of those here are like me and have a hardware / software sort of skil that is valued still to some extent, and that is what I do now. sorry for the personal comments, just got carried away. jim Bj?rn wrote: > On Fri, 06 May 2005 03:53:16 +0200, Jay West wrote: > > > > > I don't own the original Pick PC. But I do have an original distribution > > of "Pick on the PC/XT", the first release, personally handed to my by > > Dick. Should have had him autograph it. In the same binder as the OS > > distribution, I acquired a copy of the ASSEMBLER account - something > > they tried not to make available. > > > Can anybody tell me anything about the connection between Pick and > Revelation? > I never saw Pick on a PC, but I have Revelation (for MS-DOS) as well as > Advanced Revelation multisuser for both OS/2 and DOS. > > -- > -bv From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 8 15:43:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 16:43:07 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/8/05, Charles wrote: > Waaay back in 1981 [on an ] 11/03... there was an Infocom game installed, called > "Infidel"... I went digging around to find a grid of Infocom products and platform, and ran across this... http://www.if-legends.org/~pdd/infocom/fact-sheet.txt One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton Program - the game engine) for the DECmate. If anyone has ever seen an Infocom title for the DECmate, I'd love to play with it. I'd expect that it was for an optional 8-bit coprocessor board, not for the primary 12-bit 6100 processor, but I'd like to know for sure. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:12:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:12:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427D71DB.80002@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 7, 5 08:56:43 pm Message-ID: > > It's one possibilty. It could also have been a lot of other things, drive > > or controller related. Personally, I'd have done a lot more tests before > > twiddling anything (but then again, I once spent an afternoon figuring > > out why a CBM 8250 was ubreliable on one drive, only to find the cause > > was dirty heads...) > > True, in an ideal world I would have the time to do stuff like that. > For my job I get paid to spend the time to do things right. For home > projects where I can sometimes go weeks without a free hour and more > typically have one to two hours a night to tinker, I get a lot more fast I've heard the reverse from other people -- for their job, 'anything will do' provided it gets the problem moved to someone else, but for their hobbies they spend as much time as needed to do it right, becuase that's what they enjoy doing. For most of us here, classic computers are a hobby. We mess around with them because we enjoy it, we want to get them working and use them, but it doesn't really matter if it takes a few more days -- there's no deadline... Sure there are jobs we don't like (cleaning keycaps one at a time has to be high on that list for me...), but most of the time we're having fun. And it therefore makes sense IMHO to get things done in the best way we can... Personally, I always try to do things properly, whether I am being paid for it or not. > and loose. Tony, as far as I can tell, your job *is* answering cctalk > questions. :-) Many a true word is spoken in jest. Nobody is likely to employ me again, so I might as well share what little knowledge I have here > I have the service manual that compucolor put out for the machine. they > give a procedure for doing a quick and dirty alignment (twiddle four > pots corresponding to convergence in the top, bottom, left, and right This is an in-line tube, right, not a delta-gun? It sounds a little unusual. > Tony you may shake your head at my cavalier attitude about the state of > the hardware, but I feel like what I'm doing isn't harming the machine > and if I (or the next owner) wants to do it right, I haven't precluded Firstly with regard to adjustments, they rarely, if ever, drift. If something needs re-adjusting then there is a fault. Maybe an adjustment will provide a temporary fix, maybe not... There are several types of adjustmnets. There are those that, if you get them wrong, will do major damage -- like PSU voltage tweakers. There are those that take a lot of skill and equipment to set up properly (some of the mechanicla adjustmments in hard drives, for example). And there are those that are relatively easy to set up, and which don't do damage if you get them wrong. Your disk spindle speed pot is one of the last types. And in that case there is little harm in adjusting it to see what happens. What I want to discourage is the idea of tweaking things at random in the hope it'll fix the problem. It won't, you'll probably make things a lot worse. Of course in some circumstances, adjusting things and seeing the effect on the fault can give useful information. But only do this if you know you can set things up again afterwards. As regards a 'cavalier attitude' to hardware, it depends on how experienced you are. Some people might hear the noise of the spindle motor (say) and know it's running way off speed. The rest of us have to make measurements first :-). Experienced ASR33 hackers can probably test most spring tensions with their fingers -- and find the bit that's too stiff, or too tight, or... The rest of us do battle with a tension gauge and the service manual. And so on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:16:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:16:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: <427D7308.3000802@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 7, 5 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: > The compucolor also another failure mode; it is a rare example of how a > software bug can cause physical damage. The compucolor logic is stuffed > inside a normal TV case (there are even empty holes for > tint/brightness/contrast along the bottom and a convenient carrying > handle on the top) with the board driving baseband video to the normal > TV logic. The CRT timing is generated by a chip that has timing > registers loaded from an on-chip ROM. However, the CPU is free to write > new values to the timing registers, and if the wrong value is entered, > it causes something dire to happen in the TV section's logic (eg, if the > horizontal frequency is too low then the flyback transformer's impedence > drops and draws a lot of current and smokes). This is not as rare as you might think. Several machines -- the IBM PC MDA card + 5151 monitor, for exampe -- suffer from this. There is no horizontal oscillator chip in the monitor circuit, the line output stage (horizontal output stage) is driven from the signal produced by a software-contorlled IC (in the case of the MDA card, it's a 6845). Mis-programming that does just what you said.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:18:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:18:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <002f01c55375$b12024c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at May 7, 5 09:28:59 pm Message-ID: > Yes, but I've said time and time again that there isn't a "10 year rule" > here anymore. 10 year limit just doesn't work, it's gotta be "classic". And what is the definition of 'classic'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 15:20:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:20:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mystery board In-Reply-To: <59154.207.145.53.202.1115521390.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at May 7, 5 08:03:10 pm Message-ID: > I don't even have a SWAG as to what that card is. I'm a little dubious > about it belonging in a PDP-8/a, but I suppose anything is possible. Well, IIRC, there was some kind of connector/clamp just above the 'F' edge connector fingers. If the board was put in the normal 8/a box, there'd be access to that connector through that hole where you connect the console cable, etc. So it might well be for an 8/a -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 8 16:06:15 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 22:06:15 +0100 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: In message Ethan Dicks wrote: > One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton > Program - the game engine) for the DECmate. If anyone has ever seen > an Infocom title for the DECmate, I'd love to play with it. I'd > expect that it was for an optional 8-bit coprocessor board, not for > the primary 12-bit 6100 processor, but I'd like to know for sure. I'm not sure just how powerful the 6100 is, but I doubt it would be too difficult to port one of the simpler Z-machine engines from Linux or BSD to whatever the DECmate runs (VMS?) Forgive my lack of knowledge of all things DEC.. My collection (if you could call it that) is predominantly microcomputers... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Flash Gordon exposed himself to all sorts of danger. From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 16:15:09 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:15:09 -0400 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427E815D.5090908@gbronline.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: > ISTR someone looking for one of these 5153 IBM CGA Monitors. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5194458575 > > No connection with sale. Hmm, $10 + $30 shipping inside the continental USA -- that's $40 for a CGA monitor! Glad I have a few 5153s stashed away . . . out of curiosity, are they hard to find now? Glen 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 8 16:42:24 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:42:24 -0400 Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <427E87C0.1040405@gbronline.com> John Lawson wrote: > Cheers > > John > > kkk ^^^ ??? Glen 0/0 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 8 16:45:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:45:00 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Philip Pemberton > Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 22:06:15 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >In message > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton >> Program - the game engine) for the DECmate. If anyone has ever seen >> an Infocom title for the DECmate, I'd love to play with it. I'd >> expect that it was for an optional 8-bit coprocessor board, not for >> the primary 12-bit 6100 processor, but I'd like to know for sure. It was for either the Z80 apu running CP/M making its a terminal/media thing rather than new version. >I'm not sure just how powerful the 6100 is, but I doubt it would be too >difficult to port one of the simpler Z-machine engines from Linux or BSD to >whatever the DECmate runs (VMS?) Decmate II/III uses 6120 (PDP-8 with EMA). There is no *nix for the PDP-8 and OS278 is common. FYI: VMS runs on VAX(32bit) and Alpha(64bit). If you can fit the game format into a 32Kword 12bit machine it's possible. Generally speaking there isn't a C compiler for PDP-8 I know of and the 4k paged addressing and very minimalist instruction set would be an interesting challenge. I've seen Fortan, Focal, Basic and even algol on an 8 but never C. There is also the VAXmate, a flavor of a 286 clone. Allison From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 8 17:12:02 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 18:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 In-Reply-To: <427E87C0.1040405@gbronline.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459C4@sbs.jdfogg.com> <427E87C0.1040405@gbronline.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > John Lawson wrote: >> Cheers >> >> John >> >> kkk > ^^^ > > ??? > > Glen > 0/0 > ooops.... I Pine, CTRL-K is "Line Delete". Looks like I didn't have the CTRL key down for the entire seqeunce of deletes that I used to trim the reply... A single 'k' at the end of a CW transmission means "invite to transmit"... but I think I just didn't see the Offending String when I hit the 'SEND' button. And I hate when that happens... ;} Cheers John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 8 17:14:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:14:03 -0600 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427E8F2B.5080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>Yes, but I've said time and time again that there isn't a "10 year rule" >>here anymore. 10 year limit just doesn't work, it's gotta be "classic". >> >> > >And what is the definition of 'classic' > > Coke - a - Cola. :) In this case I would guess any computer that has some special quality as compared to the Millions of Pee Cee's you can find. Full documentation and reparable are features often needed too. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 8 17:17:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:17:54 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <427E9012.7080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >Decmate II/III uses 6120 (PDP-8 with EMA). There is no *nix for the PDP-8 >and OS278 is common. FYI: VMS runs on VAX(32bit) and Alpha(64bit). > >If you can fit the game format into a 32Kword 12bit machine it's possible. >Generally speaking there isn't a C compiler for PDP-8 I know of and the >4k paged addressing and very minimalist instruction set would be an >interesting challenge. I've seen Fortan, Focal, Basic and even algol >on an 8 but never C. > > > The lack of local variables makes C very dificult. >There is also the VAXmate, a flavor of a 286 clone. > > >Allison > >. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 8 17:45:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:45:10 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IG7009BN0IPNZHF@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:17:54 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>on an 8 but never C. >> >> >> >The lack of local variables makes C very dificult. Recursion on an 8 is harder to do. The DECmate II/III use the 6120 and implement the PDP-8a hardware stack for data or addresses but, it's still a bit more work. Than again programming in native assembly is fun on that machine. Allison From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun May 8 17:55:41 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? Message-ID: <7m4t71tna13t1493n6cp0lj16e2h7a4hm2@4ax.com> I have a Tally 420PR paper tape punch mechanism with no electronics, and would like to build a driver board for it. I have a DEC PC8E (M840) interface card for my 8/A project which would be the logical starting point. I was able to find a schematic of the punch online but no other manual or information. The solenoids run on -48VDC but I have no data as to pulse widths and duration, or even the speed of the mechanism (30cps?) There are solenoids for each of eight (data) punch pins, a sprocket-hole punch, tape feeder (which also operates a contact to actuate the forward ratchet mechanism), and reverse ratchet (for rubout I assume). Any ideas? I am not sure how much of the timing is generated by the M840 card and how much by the M710 inside the PC04 assembly. Also, the connector is a Continental 25034-16P. Does anyone have a mating female connector? thanks Charles From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun May 8 18:09:22 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 19:09:22 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <20050508230921.IFXO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Last night after some googling I came up with a //e emulator and a >"Pocket Atari 2600". There's also a pocket C64, including a "commercial" >one from Commodore. There are some others, like a pocket Sinclair. >There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME >emulator. > >I would really like to find a "pocket CP/M" machine. I purchased a package called "pocketdos" (a search should find them), which works quite nicely ... I can run all of my DOS based emulators on it, so in my shirt pocket I have an Altair, H8, Horizon, Vector, and a bunch of others. It's pretty neat actually. Note that it does NOT emulate an 80386 - just an 80186 ... so programs which need a "dos extender" will NOT run. It will let you define your own boot disk, so it should be possible to boot CP/M-86 on it, although I have not looked into doing so yet. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun May 8 18:10:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 19:10:08 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <427E9012.7080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17022.40016.88991.459072@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> Allison wrote: >> Decmate II/III uses 6120 (PDP-8 with EMA). There is no *nix for >> the PDP-8 and OS278 is common. FYI: VMS runs on VAX(32bit) and >> Alpha(64bit). >> >> If you can fit the game format into a 32Kword 12bit machine it's >> possible. Generally speaking there isn't a C compiler for PDP-8 I >> know of and the 4k paged addressing and very minimalist >> instruction set would be an interesting challenge. I've seen >> Fortan, Focal, Basic and even algol on an 8 but never C. >> >> >> woodelf> The lack of local variables makes C very dificult. Huh? You're confusing the lack of a hardware stack with the lack of local variables. They are not at all related. The IBM 360/370 series doesn't have a stack, and some of its restrictions are vaguely PDP-8 like. Nevertheless, GCC supports C (and C++) quite nicely on those machines. For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was invented, and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. (Then again, that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an intermediate form that looks very much like a subset of the Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) And Unix originally appeared on the PDP-7, which you can describe quite reasonably as an 18-bit superset of the PDP-8. (That's historically nonsense, but as a description it fits.) Did C exist back then, or did that wait until Unix was ported to the PDP-11? I don't know. Finally, CDC 6000s don't have a stack either, but the first Pascal compiler ran on that machine. Implementing a stack on a non-stack machine (or non-stack language like Fortran-II) is a nice elementary Exercise for the Student. paul From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 8 18:27:18 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 00:27:18 +0100 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <427E8F2B.5080900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <427E8F2B.5080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <427EA056.2070608@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Yes, but I've said time and time again that there isn't a "10 year >>> rule" here anymore. 10 year limit just doesn't work, it's gotta be >>> "classic". >>> >> >> >> And what is the definition of 'classic' >> >> > Coke - a - Cola. :) > > In this case I would guess any computer that has some special quality > as compared to the Millions of Pee Cee's you can find. > Full documentation and reparable are features often needed too. I still think that even relatively modern machines could *just* squeeze into the definition of "classic" - as in, the expectation that they will be a classic given time - if they're interesting enough. Gordon. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 18:26:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 00:26:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? In-Reply-To: <7m4t71tna13t1493n6cp0lj16e2h7a4hm2@4ax.com> from "Charles" at May 8, 5 05:55:41 pm Message-ID: > > I have a Tally 420PR paper tape punch mechanism with no > electronics, and would like to build a driver board for it. I have I knew I had the Tally Model 420 manual somewhere, and amazingly it was where I thought I'd put it.... > a DEC PC8E (M840) interface card for my 8/A project which would be > the logical starting point. I was able to find a schematic of the > punch online but no other manual or information. > > The solenoids run on -48VDC but I have no data as to pulse widths There are 2 versions : 24V and 48V. The way to tell them apart seems to be to measure the resistance of the coils -- 48V ones are 220 Ohm, 24V ones are 50 OHm (all should be the same in a given machine). FWIW, there's a recomended suppression circuit in the manual consisting of an RC series circuit in parallel with each coil. For 48V, use 10 Ohms and 0.5 uF (I guess 0.47uF is near enough), for 24V use 5 Ohms and 0.7uF (4.7 Ohms and 0.68uF?) The manuals says 'The escapment assmbiles for the capstan drive and perforator drive mecahnisms require dc pulses of 4.5 +/- 0.5 milliseconds duration at 48 or 24 +/- 10% volts according to customer requirements. One pulse must be supplied for each movement of the tape and for each character to be punched. Puchn pulese for all 8 channels are normally derived from a common pulse, but if individual pulse sources are used for each channel, all pulses for any individual character must be simultaneosus within +/- 0.5 millisecond'. It also claims it'll go up to 60cps, which gives the maximum repitition rate for these pulses. You can go as slowly as you like, it's entirely asynchronous (unlike, say, a BRPE, which can be a right pain to interface). The manual also says 'CAUTION: A steady curret of the rated voltage will burn out the coils.' I assume you know the machine runs in an oil sump, level to be kept between the min and max marks, The recomended oil is 'Light turbine oil viscosity 160 SSU. Texaco A R & O or equivalent'. You should alos lubricate the motor bearings twice yearly (Bardahl BOA30 or equivalent) and the folloing points every 500 houes : Bearing bushces in the capstan drive, reel drive and ideler (Bardahl BOA30), wipe each armature and pole face and put 1 or 2 drops of lubricant on the felt pads (Bardahl BPA30, do not overlubricate) and one drop of lubricant on each armature tip (silicone fluid 250cs, Dow Corning 200). Don't ask me where to get these lubricants.... > and duration, or even the speed of the mechanism (30cps?) There > are solenoids for each of eight (data) punch pins, a sprocket-hole > punch, tape feeder (which also operates a contact to actuate the > forward ratchet mechanism), and reverse ratchet (for rubout I > assume). > > Any ideas? I am not sure how much of the timing is generated by > the M840 card and how much by the M710 inside the PC04 assembly. Having built a PC04 (well, converted a PC05 into one...) I seem to remember that the DEC punch mechanism is a synchronous one. The motor runs all the time, turnign the camshaft, you get a pulse per revolution fro ma pickup head, and the interface then drives solenoids to operate the punch pins and feed mechanism based on that timing. Now whether if you fed a suitable clock into the inferface card, you'd get out pulses that could be used to drive the asynchronous Tally mechanism I don't know, but it seems like a starting point. > > Also, the connector is a Continental 25034-16P. Does anyone have a > mating female connector? Alas the manaul tells me that a mating connector is supplied with the machine. Not a lot of help... -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 8 18:55:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:55:54 -0500 Subject: Early PC software, forked to 'Early PC Games' In-Reply-To: <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BE90@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <42798D47.2090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050506205046.01778c3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <427EA70A.6040603@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > In the interest of sharing, I just stopped typing this message and shot > some photographs of the packages of the early IBM-PC games I have. I've > thrown a web page up on it and you're welcome to take a look. > > http://sasteven.multics.org/IBM-games/EarlyPCGames.html Very nice! Mobygames has a history of old PC games: For bootable disks (ie no DOS), check these: http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/pc-booter/1981/ http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/pc-booter/1982/ For DOS games, check these: http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/dos/1981/ http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/dos/1982/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 8 19:01:41 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:01:41 -0500 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <427E815D.5090908@gbronline.com> References: <427E815D.5090908@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <427EA865.8000603@oldskool.org> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Hmm, $10 + $30 shipping inside the continental USA -- > that's $40 for a CGA monitor! Glad I have a few 5153s > stashed away . . . out of curiosity, are they hard to > find now? God, I hope not! There's one at a local shop that isn't going away any time soon; $10 if memory serves. I have one working set up on my other desk... I love those things. There were probably other CGA monitors made that were better, but I like the styling of the 5153 as it matches my 5150. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 8 19:03:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:03:35 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>Yes, but I've said time and time again that there isn't a "10 year rule" >>here anymore. 10 year limit just doesn't work, it's gotta be "classic". > > And what is the definition of 'classic'? Not sure if you're trolling :-) but I would HOPE that the "10 year rule" is invalid and that the new rule is "anything that ISN'T what is currently sold today". Meaning, Windows PCs and Mac OS X -- everything else, being around 10 years old or older, would be valid. For me, this translates to "everything up to and including Amiga". (1994) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 8 19:04:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:04:21 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <427EA905.9010408@oldskool.org> Richard A. Cini wrote: > There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME Do you have more information on this? I would love to carry around a pocket XT (that didn't cost $200 like HP 200lx's do) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 8 19:40:02 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:40:02 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <427EA905.9010408@oldskool.org> References: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <427EA905.9010408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <427EB162.nailOQE15JQSE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > pocket XT Getting back to the ten-year rule, many of the "smart" barcode scanners used for inventory/warehouse tracking are 8088- or 80286-based and in fact run MS-DOS (or compatible) from ROMdisk. These have a multi-line LCD character display and a fairly full keyboard, and will fit in a really big shirt pocket. I first saw these around 1990/1991 and the ones I see today are in fact very little different than the ones from 15 years ago. Tim. From cb at mythtech.net Sun May 8 20:01:28 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:01:28 -0400 Subject: IBM Mainframe stuff in Northern NJ Message-ID: I'm going to be picking up some manuals from a guy in Northern NJ. He told me he also has a bunch of IBM Mainframe manuals. I'm not sure what all that means. I'm not interested in them, but I told him I might be able to come up with some people that are. To the best of my knowledge the stuff will be free, but it is pickup only. So if anyone is interested in IBM Mainframe manuals, and can pickup stuff from North Eastern NJ (Franklin Lakes area), and would like me to pass on their email address to the guy, then let me know what address you want me to give him. If no one that can pickup speaks up, I'll take a note of what he has (if it isn't much, I may just grab it), and I can ship to others for cost of shipping (plus a buck or two for the gas to pick it up). -chris From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 8 20:29:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 21:29:27 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Paul Koning > Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:10:08 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > woodelf> The lack of local variables makes C very dificult. > >Huh? That is really just convention. I can't see why it's relevent. >You're confusing the lack of a hardware stack with the lack of local >variables. They are not at all related. Correct. But a stack makes some forms of programming easier. >The IBM 360/370 series doesn't have a stack, and some of its >restrictions are vaguely PDP-8 like. Nevertheless, GCC supports C >(and C++) quite nicely on those machines. IBM360 like a PDP-8???? Explain please. >For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was invented, >and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. (Then again, >that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an intermediate form that >looks very much like a subset of the Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) Using an IL was a way of making the complier easier I'd guess. Compiler deign has become more sophisticated since. >And Unix originally appeared on the PDP-7, which you can describe >quite reasonably as an 18-bit superset of the PDP-8. (That's >historically nonsense, but as a description it fits.) In many ways it's pretty close. PDP-8 and PDP-7 had more similar than different. Same for The PDP-1 and 5 that preceded both. The PDP6 and 11 were departures as was VAX. The departures were PDP-6,11 and VAX are very CISC in the vax case, to the extreme. >Did C exist >back then, or did that wait until Unix was ported to the PDP-11? I >don't know. NO, PDP-11 was the first occurance for C. After that it was ported to Honeywell6000 and the Interdata 8/32 and even the IBM System/370. The native language for unix on PDP-7 was B and it's influence was from BCPL. The introduction of PDP-11 was early in the life of the machine to Bell Labs and K&R were quick to take the bare iron and endevor to put all their previous work on the -11 to make it useful. A lot of the register, local variable and addressing conventions directly reflect the PDP-11 hardware, instruction set and native addressing modes under C. >Finally, CDC 6000s don't have a stack either, but the first Pascal >compiler ran on that machine. Implementing a stack on a non-stack >machine (or non-stack language like Fortran-II) is a nice elementary >Exercise for the Student. Be very careful what you call a stack or not. The PDP-8 (Straight 8) has no hardware stack but, it has autoindex registers that are very handy for stack implmentation. It's also not hard to store a return address elsewhere to implement subroutine recursion. Later PDP-8a and the 6120 chip versions had a real hardware stack added. The stacks were implemented using IOTs so it was possible to add them to any -8. The lack of a return stack doesn't mean there isn't a set of addressing modes to implement a software stack from all the minis and micros I've seen. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 8 20:49:59 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:49:59 -0400 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay References: <427E815D.5090908@gbronline.com> <427EA865.8000603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001c01c55439$7303b8e0$c3781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:01 PM Subject: Re: CGA monitor on eBay > Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Hmm, $10 + $30 shipping inside the continental USA -- > > that's $40 for a CGA monitor! Glad I have a few 5153s > > stashed away . . . out of curiosity, are they hard to > > find now? > > God, I hope not! There's one at a local shop that isn't going away any time > soon; $10 if memory serves. I have one working set up on my other desk... I > love those things. There were probably other CGA monitors made that were > better, but I like the styling of the 5153 as it matches my 5150. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ So who did make the best CGA monitor? The only one I have is a Tandy CM-11 on my Tandy 1000HX. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 20:55:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:55:04 -0500 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 References: <200505051915.j45JF5jw018435@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050505145141.C11751@shell.lmi.net><427AB86E.9B26F49B@msm.umr.edu><032401c551de$5ee913d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <427E773A.EE03995F@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <005601c5543a$1eeaae20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > Revelation was written as a near singlehanded effort by a man > named Roger Harpel. And then there's "Advanced Revelation" which was actually quite different from the outside. Then there was "Open Insight" which was vastly different inside and out :) To this day I actually still support one Advanced Revelation customer. > Ulimate considered buying revelation, and Microdata licensed a version > of it to run on the M1000 that was pretty horrible. Revelation, I can believe that. But Advanced Revelation (which I used extensively) seemed to be way too tightly integrated to the PC/DOS environment. I'm assuming it was the older Revelation that they had up on an M1000? I was a Microdata dealer for a while, and I never ran into Revelation there. Nifty, I have learned something :) > There are a huge amount of packages that run large chain stores such > as auto parts stores, and other such chains that are pick that don't even > know they are run by pick systems. It was also quite prevalent in Health Care, video rental, and hardware stores. > IBM owns the biggest competitor in the unix arena to pick, Universe and > unidata. They continue to thrive there. Last I half-way followed the old MV markets, IBM was actually continuing to enhance uniVerse, which suprised me. I figured they bought it to kill it. But I haven't heard of any major updates in the past few years (not that I still follow it really). > My background is as a system developer for pick vendors and I worked > in the pick assembler system code from 1975 to 1990. Yes, I remember talking to you on the phone. I didn't recall past knowledge of you specifically, but I definitely noticed we knew all the same people it sounded like :) What vendors and subsystems did you work on? I spent time in GA's overflow management routines as well as some monitor work, a few years prior to Ian's reign (Mike Bender I believe I recall?). Also did a stint at MDCS working on the tapeio modes for sequel. Then MDCS tapped me to implement Forth on the MDCS platforms so they could migrate some healthcare product - I forget the particulars - but I turned down the job. Many times I wish I hadn't, that would have been fun. > I don't think a > reasonable > living can be made in pick these days, Sad, but true. Pick was really an incredible database, unfortunately they added OS cruft to it in the beginning. By the time they stripped out the OS stuff and made it run as a layer on unix & DOS/WIN, it was just too late. Normally, accessing a real database inside of BASIC is rather a pain, and you spend a lot of time thinking about other things than the application problem at hand. With Pick, touching the database was so intuitive... like programming with fine thin leather gloves on instead of mittens. The only thing I wished they did different was tie the dictionary straight into basic, as opposed to referencing via separate variables and the like. Yes, you could program around this, but... twas the only shortcoming. > sorry for the personal comments, just got carried away. I know exactly how you feel. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:06:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:06:49 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: Message-ID: <007101c5543b$c3232070$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > And what is the definition of 'classic'? I posted this a while back, and won't regurgitate it every time the subject comes up. Instead, it'll get put into the faq :> Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:07:25 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:07:25 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: <427E8F2B.5080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007801c5543b$d856d4a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> woodelf wrote... > In this case I would guess any computer that has some special quality > as compared to the Millions of Pee Cee's you can find. That's a fairly good distillation of it. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:11:52 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:11:52 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: <427E8F2B.5080900@jetnet.ab.ca> <427EA056.2070608@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <008101c5543c$77d69650$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gordon wrote... > I still think that even relatively modern machines could *just* squeeze > into the definition of "classic" - as in, the expectation that they will > be a classic given time - if they're interesting enough. You are correct in that some more relatively modern machines could be considered classic. Something can only be classic once the current paradigm is sufficiently different from the paradigm in place at the time of the machine in question. When Windows based PC's are no longer the mainstay of the market, then, possibly, they could be considered classic, if the new paradigm is vastly different. However, we can talk about this when PC's are no longer the concept of the common computer. That will be a long long time most likely. My own personal prediction is that (currently) modern PC's won't be classic in our lifetimes. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 8 21:16:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:16:28 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <009101c5543d$1c36d160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > but I would HOPE that the "10 year rule" is invalid and that the new rule > is "anything that ISN'T what is currently sold today". The ten year rule is invalid. It no longer fits. I'll keep repeating that till the topic stops coming up ;) I agree with your definition above, with one addition. Just because it isn't sold anymore doesn't make it classic. Something that is currently sold may in fact be classic (but not very commonly). The key is - if the item is representative of something that is very different, or innovative, that isn't generally done that way today. Jay From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 8 21:44:33 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 03:44:33 +0100 Subject: compucolor In-Reply-To: References: <427D7308.3000802@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <575131af0505081944da00862@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > [...] if the wrong value is entered, > > it causes something dire to happen in the TV section's logic (eg, if the > > horizontal frequency is too low then the flyback transformer's impedence > > drops and draws a lot of current and smokes). > > This is not as rare as you might think. Several machines -- the IBM PC > MDA card + 5151 monitor, for exampe -- suffer from this. There is no > horizontal oscillator chip in the monitor circuit, the line output stage > (horizontal output stage) is driven from the signal produced by a > software-contorlled IC (in the case of the MDA card, it's a 6845). > Mis-programming that does just what you said.... Aha! The famed HCF instruction? :?) -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 8 21:45:22 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 21:45:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Mainframe stuff in Northern NJ References: Message-ID: <00c201c55441$271a0030$1b406b43@66067007> Put me on your list for shipping once you get a list, that is if no one else takes them. Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:01 PM Subject: IBM Mainframe stuff in Northern NJ > I'm going to be picking up some manuals from a guy in Northern NJ. He > told me he also has a bunch of IBM Mainframe manuals. I'm not sure what > all that means. I'm not interested in them, but I told him I might be > able to come up with some people that are. To the best of my knowledge > the stuff will be free, but it is pickup only. > > So if anyone is interested in IBM Mainframe manuals, and can pickup stuff > from North Eastern NJ (Franklin Lakes area), and would like me to pass on > their email address to the guy, then let me know what address you want me > to give him. > > If no one that can pickup speaks up, I'll take a note of what he has (if > it isn't much, I may just grab it), and I can ship to others for cost of > shipping (plus a buck or two for the gas to pick it up). > > -chris > > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun May 8 21:50:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 22:50:01 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <20050509025000.CYPY16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 19:04 08/05/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Richard A. Cini wrote: >> There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME > >Do you have more information on this? I would love to carry around a pocket XT >(that didn't cost $200 like HP 200lx's do) He may have been referring to pocketdos, which I've just checked, and can be found at: www.pocketdos.com - IIRC it was about $40 - but the catch is that you have to have a WinCE based handhelp - Pocketdos is just a software package which emulates an XT on these devices. I bought pocketdos, and aside from their registration system being a bit clumsy (long user key to enter) and being tied to the ID of your handheld, I have been pretty happy with it. I haven't updated mine in a while (haven't found any problems), but I assume the current version is very similar. It simulates an 80186 and the hardware of an XT - so it knows the extra stack instructions, no form of protected mode at all (which means no DOS extender). On my viewsonic V37 which is a 400Mhz x-scale, IIRC it does the equivlent of a 25Mhz processor, which is a tad on the slow side, but fast enough for most DOS stuff. IIRC it's looks like a text mode CGA screen, and I don't recall if there is any graphic capability or not. It comes with DataLight ROMdos, which so far has worked for all of my stuff, and you can define your own boot disk if you want to boot something else. It has utilities to map "disk drives" to directories on the native OS, and can also talk to the serial port (which I use as a portable download station). It's a but clumsy typing on the little keyboard, but they do provide a virtual mouse driver for the screen - if anyone is interested, I wrote a little DOS based file manager which lets you manipulate files, run apps etc. by tapping lists and menus on the screen. To put a bit of OT info in here, I carry all of my simulators on mine - if I get the urge to show someone what it's like to boot up the Altair or H8, I can do so "most anywhere" ... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sun May 8 23:22:17 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 21:22:17 -0700 Subject: IBM Manuals - et al, On EBay Message-ID: <427EE579.6040207@ix.netcom.com> EBay tonight has an entire library of IBM manuals for sale, but one at a time. Look in Vintage Computers. All from the same era. There's a huge set for the 1401/1410 and associated peripherals that really belong with all the hard workers at the museum. To bad somebody can't talk this guy into donating them. He also had many other early floppy manuals - Shugart, PerSci, Seimens etc. And a little something from many of the early systems - Intel, Mostek, etc. It's a damn shame that this lot wasn't donated or sold so it could stay together instead of being scattered to the wind. I hope that those who are interested get what they bid on. Billy From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun May 8 23:51:46 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 00:51:46 EDT Subject: Digital Items (VaxServer 4000/200) Message-ID: <206.9dd489.2fb04662@aol.com> Picked up a VAX 4000/200 myself recently. Fairly nice machine, heavy, same processor type as a Vaxstation 4000-VLC. Each memory board is 16 MB, system can address up to 4. DSSI drives standard, probably also has SCSI Qbus card (the connector at the far side of the chassis is DSSI NOT SCSI). Rumor has it that there is some way to hack the SCSI through to the backplane shelf in lieu of the DSSI. Haven't put VMS on it yet (no drives installed), but for 32MB RAM it's much faster to the "dead sargent" (is it called SRM in VAX too?) than my 3100/76. Unfortunately, not upgradeable to better VAXen withoug a backplane swap (best thought of as the king of the classic Qbus MicroVAXen than a "real VAX") Won't run Ultrix so don't ask. Manx is great- looks like all manuals are there. If you can get it cheap, go for it- the BA430 really needs two people to load (over 100lbs, I'm still sore) but the 215 is probably a one-person deal. P.S.- it runs on 120- you need to get either a "keyed" CEE or hack a standard with a Dremel and drill. Does anyone here know if DSSI is worth the bother? seems to be hard to find, small and expensive but I have no experience with it. -Scott Quinn P.S. Note to all who asked for the Asimov archives- mine are a bit old, it seems. I'm trying to get them updated, that's what's taking a while. From drb at msu.edu Mon May 9 00:11:29 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:11:29 -0400 Subject: IBM Manuals - et al, On EBay Message-ID: <200505090511.j495BTop021116@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> To make this quicker for others, here's a URL: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZbilld2626 De From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon May 9 00:30:20 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 01:30:20 -0400 Subject: compucolor HCF References: <427D7308.3000802@pacbell.net> <575131af0505081944da00862@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a401c55458$310da440$3a92a8c0@maggie> when I was in high school (teaching the grade 9 class, not taking it) - one kid got to pay the repair bill on the Commodore PET. One magic poke to the 6845, and PPPPFT! there goes the monitor cicuitry;) But thwen again, random pokes to random locations will cause havoc... The real (blue) screen of death! (monochrome 40 col. version) h Liam wrote: > > This is not as rare as you might think. Several machines -- the IBM PC > > MDA card + 5151 monitor, for exampe -- suffer from this. There is no > > horizontal oscillator chip in the monitor circuit, the line output stage > > (horizontal output stage) is driven from the signal produced by a > > software-contorlled IC (in the case of the MDA card, it's a 6845). > > Mis-programming that does just what you said.... > > Aha! The famed HCF instruction? :?) From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 00:45:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 22:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have all the old game, either in the original boxed form, some > folios (especially the Commodore-64 editions printed by Commodore), > and the later compilations sets like "The Lost Treasures of Infocom". > I do not have any of the really cool first-edition wierd boxes like > the flying saucer "Starcross" package, or the plastic face "Suspended" > package. I did see the flying saucer for sale at Dayton once, but > they wanted more than I had in my pocket for it. I have the over-sized Sorcerer packaging and the "case file" Deadline packaging. Still looking for the saucer ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 00:47:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 22:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/8/05, Charles wrote: > > Waaay back in 1981 [on an ] 11/03... there was an Infocom game installed, called > > "Infidel"... > > I went digging around to find a grid of Infocom products and platform, > and ran across this... > > http://www.if-legends.org/~pdd/infocom/fact-sheet.txt > > One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton > Program - the game engine) for the DECmate. If anyone has ever seen > an Infocom title for the DECmate, I'd love to play with it. I'd > expect that it was for an optional 8-bit coprocessor board, not for > the primary 12-bit 6100 processor, but I'd like to know for sure. I'll check my stash. I'm pretty sure I have a couple games that are for the Rainbow 100 (HHGTTG?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 00:50:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 22:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <427E815D.5090908@gbronline.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Paxton Hoag wrote: > > ISTR someone looking for one of these 5153 IBM CGA Monitors. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5194458575 > > > > No connection with sale. > > Hmm, $10 + $30 shipping inside the continental USA -- > that's $40 for a CGA monitor! Glad I have a few 5153s > stashed away . . . out of curiosity, are they hard to > find now? They're certainly less common than they used to be, but there are still, I'd guess, thousands out there. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 9 00:57:16 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 23:57:16 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17022.40016.88991.459072@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <427E9012.7080708@jetnet.ab.ca> <17022.40016.88991.459072@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <427EFBBC.1000304@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >Huh? > >You're confusing the lack of a hardware stack with the lack of local >variables. They are not at all related. > > > But the IBM does have INDEX registers that makes emulating a stack easy. >The IBM 360/370 series doesn't have a stack, and some of its >restrictions are vaguely PDP-8 like. Nevertheless, GCC supports C >(and C++) quite nicely on those machines. > > > But GCC does not need to fit into 4096 words of memory. If you compiled C into a P-code type code I am sure you would have no problems but a very tiny memory space. >For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was invented, >and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. (Then again, >that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an intermediate form that >looks very much like a subset of the Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) > >And Unix originally appeared on the PDP-7, which you can describe >quite reasonably as an 18-bit superset of the PDP-8. (That's >historically nonsense, but as a description it fits.) Did C exist >back then, or did that wait until Unix was ported to the PDP-11? I >don't know. > > > C was developed around the time Unix was developed but only one they ported did they have a real machine to use. Primeval C == http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/primevalC.html >Finally, CDC 6000s don't have a stack either, but the first Pascal >compiler ran on that machine. Implementing a stack on a non-stack >machine (or non-stack language like Fortran-II) is a nice elementary >Exercise for the Student. > > But if you have subscripted varibles, then you can have stacks and other data structures. you have to do the work the hard way rather than use hardware. > paul > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 01:07:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 23:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <005601c5543a$1eeaae20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sad, but true. Pick was really an incredible database, unfortunately they > added OS cruft to it in the beginning. By the time they stripped out the OS > stuff and made it run as a layer on unix & DOS/WIN, it was just too late. > Normally, accessing a real database inside of BASIC is rather a pain, and > you spend a lot of time thinking about other things than the application > problem at hand. With Pick, touching the database was so intuitive... like > programming with fine thin leather gloves on instead of mittens. The only > thing I wished they did different was tie the dictionary straight into > basic, as opposed to referencing via separate variables and the like. Yes, > you could program around this, but... twas the only shortcoming. This is starting to sound like dBase/Foxbase/Foxpro/Clipper/etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 01:12:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 23:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <008101c5543c$77d69650$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > different. However, we can talk about this when PC's are no longer the > concept of the common computer. That will be a long long time most likely. > My own personal prediction is that (currently) modern PC's won't be classic > in our lifetimes. I think you're wrong. Look at how far we've come and how fast. 1950 -> 1960 Major leaps in computing technology 1960 -> 1970 Much change, but not as much as the previous decade 1970 -> 1980 Everything gets smaller, cheaper, and on a single chip 1980 -> 1990 Refinement of what came out in the 1970s 1990 -> 2000 PC dreck The timeline is getting compressed. Stuff that took 10-20 years to be considered "ancient" or even "retro" is now only taking 5-10. To that end, I was just thinking the other day that I better stash away a generic crap 386 clone before I stop coming across them. We'll need samples to demonstrate to people 20-30 years now the low-point of computing in our more recent era ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon May 9 01:51:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 23:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BDS C In-Reply-To: <200505081319.j48DJ29J025758@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505081319.j48DJ29J025758@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20050508234809.I10273@localhost> On Sun, 8 May 2005, Brad Parker wrote: >> I distinctly recall evaluating BDS against Whitesmith's 7-pass >> compiler. I don't recall the specific results, but I do remember >> it being difficult to operate, sloooooooow, fussy, and expensive. >> We ended up using BDS. > > Not really a fair comparison, imho. but both products changed my life :-) > > Whitesmith's was out much earlier and did, in fact work. It was just > really slow on floppies. And it was available on rt-11/rsts, which > turned out to be really handy. > > BDS was fast, but not as complete. I ended up using BDS for most > production work. (it was "load and go fortran" for s-100 :-) > > An amazing product for the time. Much like "Think C" for macintosh. Agreed; Whitesmiths was the "real thing" but when push came to shove, BDS got the job done better. Unix compatibility wasn't an issue, and BDS sure beat M80 for program development! Besides basic std lib wasn't hard to code using the FCB file junk BSD supported. From cc at corti-net.de Mon May 9 03:55:51 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:55:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton > Program - the game engine) for the DECmate. If anyone has ever seen > an Infocom title for the DECmate, I'd love to play with it. I'd > expect that it was for an optional 8-bit coprocessor board, not for > the primary 12-bit 6100 processor, but I'd like to know for sure. Porting a Z-Code interpreter to a new machine is a nice exercise. In my case I ported the Infocom interpreter from the InfoTaskforce (written in C) to the IBM 5110 (yes, the 5110, not the 5150) in machine language (yes, you can program that beast in machine language, it has a very nice instruction set IMHO). The binary's size is only 9.5kB and will run any V3 games. It includes save/restore, a paging mechanism for fetching needed non-resident code parts from disk (and throwing out LRU ones), line wrapping / 'more'-style pausing for the 64x16 display etc. The interpreter requires at least one 5114 disk drive and 16kB of RWS. If more RWS is available, less page swapping is needed during the game. Anyone interested in playing Zork on an IBM 5110 ? Christian From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 9 08:58:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:58:58 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> Correct. But a stack makes some forms of programming Allison> easier. Sure, just like CISC instructions make some things seem easier. (They actually shift the burden to a different spot.) >> The IBM 360/370 series doesn't have a stack, and some of its >> restrictions are vaguely PDP-8 like. Nevertheless, GCC supports C >> (and C++) quite nicely on those machines. Allison> IBM360 like a PDP-8???? Explain please. Small directly addressable range (128 words for the 8, 4k for the 360) is what I was thinking about. >> For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was >> invented, and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. >> (Then again, that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an >> intermediate form that looks very much like a subset of the >> Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) Allison> Using an IL was a way of making the complier easier I'd Allison> guess. Compiler deign has become more sophisticated since. I believe the main reason is to make the code smaller. P-code compilers have been used on the PDP-11 (the Algol compiler was ported there, and Fortran-4 was P-code). Basic-Plus is P-code of course, and so is Forth. Then there is UCSD Pascal. >> Finally, CDC 6000s don't have a stack either, but the first Pascal >> compiler ran on that machine. Implementing a stack on a non-stack >> machine (or non-stack language like Fortran-II) is a nice >> elementary Exercise for the Student. Allison> Be very careful what you call a stack or not. The PDP-8 Allison> (Straight 8) has no hardware stack but, it has autoindex Allison> registers that are very handy for stack implmentation. It's Allison> also not hard to store a return address elsewhere to Allison> implement subroutine recursion. Later PDP-8a and the 6120 Allison> chip versions had a real hardware stack added. The stacks Allison> were implemented using IOTs so it was possible to add them Allison> to any -8. The lack of a return stack doesn't mean there Allison> isn't a set of addressing modes to implement a software Allison> stack from all the minis and micros I've seen. Sure. But my point is that, even when you have NO help from the processor instruction set, you can do a block oriented language. The Cyber is about the most unhelpful architecture you can find: no stack, no autoincrement registers, function call works by writing the return address into the first word of the function, etc. And sure enough, Wirth bitched a lot about that, but the compiler works, anyway. In fact, it worked well enough that the first VMS Pascal compiler was a quick hackjob on the Cyber compiler -- you can still see the Cyber code patterns when you look at the VAX machine code that VAX Pascal V1.0 generates -- which is quite hilarious. paul From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 09:00:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 07:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2005, Christian Corti wrote: > Porting a Z-Code interpreter to a new machine is a nice exercise. In my > case I ported the Infocom interpreter from the InfoTaskforce (written in > C) to the IBM 5110 (yes, the 5110, not the 5150) in machine language (yes, > you can program that beast in machine language, it has a very nice > instruction set IMHO). The binary's size is only 9.5kB and will run any V3 > games. It includes save/restore, a paging mechanism for fetching needed > non-resident code parts from disk (and throwing out LRU ones), line > wrapping / 'more'-style pausing for the 64x16 display etc. > The interpreter requires at least one 5114 disk drive and 16kB of RWS. If > more RWS is available, less page swapping is needed during the game. Totally cool! Was this just for fun or did Infocom suspect a 5100 series market and hire you to do it? :) > Anyone interested in playing Zork on an IBM 5110 ? For certain. I just need to find a 5110 first :/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:31:05 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:31:05 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/9/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'll check my stash. I'm pretty sure I have a couple games that are for > the Rainbow 100 (HHGTTG?) That might be interesting, too, but I gave all my Rainbows away a number of years ago to a friend down the street. Since I don't have the CP/M card for the DECmate II, I probably wouldn't even be able to use a DECmate version right away, but I'd still like to lay hands on a disk/disk image for the future. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 9 09:34:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:34:26 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IG800IFZ8GMX2E0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Paul Koning > Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 09:58:58 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Allison> IBM360 like a PDP-8???? Explain please. > >Small directly addressable range (128 words for the 8, 4k for the >360) is what I was thinking about. Not unusual for machine that address a larger memory with shorter words or worse use a extended memory hack. However the PDP-8 is a bit different. You have a direct addressing of 128 words in the current field and Page zero field. Makes it easier to have variables that can be accesses from anywhere in the 4k frame and since the EMA allows for I&D you can still access the zero'th field from code anywhere in the 32kW space. Also the 8 autoindex memory locations are in zero field. Programming the -8 is a good exercise in what is really needed, and how to exploit it. >I believe the main reason is to make the code smaller. P-code >compilers have been used on the PDP-11 (the Algol compiler was ported >there, and Fortran-4 was P-code). Basic-Plus is P-code of course, and >so is Forth. Then there is UCSD Pascal. Actually it also allows one other thing. Machines like the PDP-8 only address 4k, they got to 32kW with EMA and using the IL interpreter to do the memory management so programs can exceed 4k hides a lot of stuff the compiler would have to deal with. The PDP-11 is a good stack machine so doing any programming style on that ends up compact and fairly fast. I used to run UCSD Psystem on an 11/23, not bad. >Sure. But my point is that, even when you have NO help from the >processor instruction set, you can do a block oriented language. The I figured that was a given if the basic addressing range was large enough to reasonably fit the code. >Cyber is about the most unhelpful architecture you can find: no stack, >no autoincrement registers, function call works by writing the return >address into the first word of the function, etc. And sure enough, Never looked at the Cyber, sounds like the other earlier PDP-n systems. The PDP-8 has the same subroutine call as Cyber, the return address is the first byte of the routine. The problem for the -8 programmer is that subroutine must be in the same 4k bank otherwise you have to invoke a small potload of code to set up a bank change then do the call (JMS I,target). >Wirth bitched a lot about that, but the compiler works, anyway. In >fact, it worked well enough that the first VMS Pascal compiler was a >quick hackjob on the Cyber compiler -- you can still see the Cyber >code patterns when you look at the VAX machine code that VAX Pascal >V1.0 generates -- which is quite hilarious. Never saw V1 of the VMS Pascal. Sound like the typical things that happen when you try to reuse code across widely different archetectures. I have to admit I'm a bit soft for anything PDP-8 or "8" like and as a result I have an 8f, DecmateIII, 6100 and 6120 based hardware. I suspect it was from my first contact with one 36 years ago. I've worked with just about every 8bitter save for the 2650. But the minis are definately different from any micro. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 9 09:41:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:41:10 -0400 Subject: need info RE: Dataram DR118A core Message-ID: <0IG8002XZ8RS7RN7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Real simple one but lacking data... I have a Dataram DR-118A 16KWx12bit core for PDP-8 omnibus. what I need is the setup to configure it as the first 16k in the system. This way my PDP-8f will have 24k of operating core. The points for this on the board are P1 and TB1, I think. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:45:16 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:45:16 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/9/05, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > One of the events in the timeline mentions a ZIP (Zork Implementaton > > Program - the game engine) for the DECmate... > > Porting a Z-Code interpreter to a new machine is a nice exercise. In my > case I ported the Infocom interpreter from the InfoTaskforce (written in > C) to the IBM 5110 Nice. I don't have a 5110, or I'd want it. I have a work in progress of porting a v3 interpreter to the PET, but I just haven't gotten around to finishing it. It starts up and displays text, but depending on the game, accepts input to one degree or another. I'm fairly certain I'm stepping on some zero page variable that I shouldn't be, and it's also being used by the kernel for CHARIN/CHROUT stuff (I/O to disk and the screen). This same program does work with the VIC-20 (as tested under VICE with 24K of RAM), but the screen size there makes it hard to play a game. Obviously, the nature of the 6502 makes writing an interpreter feasible (since Infocom directly supported the C-64, Apple II, and the Atari). Pretty much any 1MHz micro that has at least 32K of usable storage (48K or 64K is better) and a disk system with random block access (for the demand-paged virtual memory scheme used to keep only as much of the game in memory as needed at the moment) that is large enough to hold the game file (80-something K in the case of Zork I) is all that's required. The limiting factor in playing the game is disk speed, not CPU speed. With more memory, the game spends more time playing out of RAM than paging off the disk, but even a 32K machine should have enough to hold the varable store, the interpreter, and enough of the paged store to contain the parser and the present room code. Mapping all of this onto the PDP-8, however, is somewhat problematic... the Z-machine, the foundation of Infocom's success in the days of competing micro architectures, is a byte-oriented virtual machine with 16-bit (stored) pointers (depending on the interpreter that can be expanded to 17 or 18 bits like BCPLs BPTRs). I have often mused over the years how best to map that virtual machine onto the PDP-8, with no real progress. With large 16-bit and 32-bit host platforms (Amiga, Mac, UNIX, VMS, PC...), it is not necessary to implement a virtual memory scheme. With the PDP-8 and its own page-oriented memory system, it's certainly necessary, and doubly difficult. At least in the case of a 6502, the virtual memory routines simply hit a page boundary, pull in the next 256 bytes of the game to some available hole, and map the upper 8 bits of the Zpointers in software. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 9 09:47:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:47:50 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <200505081700.j48H0ddE057186@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/8/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm not sure just how powerful the 6100 is, but I doubt it would be too > difficult to port one of the simpler Z-machine engines from Linux or BSD to > whatever the DECmate runs (VMS?) In theory, it's not impossible. In practice, with the 16-bit/12-bit span problem I mentioned in another post, there are difficulties. Also, one would not be porting a C program to the -8... one would be writing it in assembler (also done back in the old days, with pretty much every 8-bit micro interpreter that Infocom did. The one for the C-64 is about 6K bytes vs about 35K bytes for the initial Amiga interpreter in C). -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 9 09:55:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:55:36 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IG8004KC9FVALR2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 07:00:44 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 9 May 2005, Christian Corti wrote: > >> Porting a Z-Code interpreter to a new machine is a nice exercise. In my >> case I ported the Infocom interpreter from the InfoTaskforce (written in >> C) to the IBM 5110 (yes, the 5110, not the 5150) in machine language (yes, >> you can program that beast in machine language, it has a very nice >> instruction set IMHO). The binary's size is only 9.5kB and will run any V3 >> games. It includes save/restore, a paging mechanism for fetching needed >> non-resident code parts from disk (and throwing out LRU ones), line >> wrapping / 'more'-style pausing for the 64x16 display etc. >> The interpreter requires at least one 5114 disk drive and 16kB of RWS. If >> more RWS is available, less page swapping is needed during the game. Well if you can do that then PDP-8 is doable. The constraints there is much of the "core" interpreter must fit in the 4KW Field and have the guts needed to do the EMA management for Field linkage. Definately a assembly languge project. One note it would coolest with TU55/56 dectape rolling for swapping but for speed the RK-08 or other databreak disk would be interesting. Allison Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 9 10:01:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:01:01 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: Message-ID: <006a01c554a7$ea769a00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > I think you're wrong. Look at how far we've come and how fast. Yeah, I could be wrong. And in this case, I'd be very happy to be wrong. Again, let's table this for discussion until it's appropriate - which is when PC/Windows machines are no longer the current paradigm. I say it's going to be many many years, you say it's not - but neither really matters, let's see what happens :) Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 9 10:13:39 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:13:39 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050509101130.052c83b0@mail> At 08:58 AM 5/9/2005, Paul Koning wrote: >I believe the main reason is to make the code smaller. P-code >compilers have been used on the PDP-11 (the Algol compiler was ported >there, and Fortran-4 was P-code). Basic-Plus is P-code of course, and >so is Forth. Then there is UCSD Pascal. I remember the Basic+ "decompiler"... but it was simply detokenizing and not turning a p-code back into BASIC, was it? - John From kth at srv.net Mon May 9 11:22:34 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:22:34 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <427F8E4A.7040601@srv.net> Allison wrote: > Decmate II/III uses 6120 (PDP-8 with EMA). There is no *nix for the PDP-8 > >and OS278 is common. FYI: VMS runs on VAX(32bit) and Alpha(64bit). > > And the almost dead Intel IA-64 bit line. >If you can fit the game format into a 32Kword 12bit machine it's possible. >Generally speaking there isn't a C compiler for PDP-8 I know of and the >4k paged addressing and very minimalist instruction set would be an >interesting challenge. I've seen Fortan, Focal, Basic and even algol >on an 8 but never C. > > > I think that C really needs to have a stack to be useful: recursive calls, pass by (alterable) value, multiple levels of local variables, etc. At least it is much easier to implement if you have a stack. Does there exist a good C compiler for any machine lacking a stack? >There is also the VAXmate, a flavor of a 286 clone. > > >Allison > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 9 10:54:41 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:54:41 +0200 Subject: Digital Items (VaxServer 4000/200) In-Reply-To: <206.9dd489.2fb04662@aol.com> References: <206.9dd489.2fb04662@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050509175441.4b9b58de.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 9 May 2005 00:51:46 EDT Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Picked up a VAX 4000/200 myself recently. Fairly nice machine, heavy, > same processor type as a Vaxstation 4000-VLC. Each memory board is 16 > MB, system can address up to 4. DSSI drives standard, probably also > has SCSI Qbus card (the connector at the far side of the chassis is > DSSI NOT SCSI). Rumor has it that there is some way to hack the SCSI > through to the backplane shelf in lieu of the DSSI. If it is a BA400 enclosure you can route SCSI to the right drive bay for removable drives. There is the (IIRC) KZQSA SCSI adapter common on this machines. This is a dump non-MSCP SCSI Adapter. It was intended as a CDROM and tape only adapter. Not of much use without VMS. > the BA430 really needs two people to load (over 100lbs, I'm still > sore) Remove the disk drives and the PSU before lifting. I doo this all the time when I move my VAX 4000-400 in a BA440... > but the 215 is probably a one-person deal. Yes. I have a VAX 4000-200 in a BA215 and it is easy to lift for a single person. > Does anyone here know if DSSI is worth the bother? seems to be hard to > find, small and expensive but I have no experience with it. DSSI is cool. It is a smaler version of CI. DSSI disks appear as a complete CI HSC with a single disk attached. You can use DSSI like CI to cluster VAXen. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vrs at msn.com Mon May 9 10:57:27 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:57:27 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > Decmate II/III uses 6120 (PDP-8 with EMA). There is no *nix for the PDP-8 > and OS278 is common. FYI: VMS runs on VAX(32bit) and Alpha(64bit). > > If you can fit the game format into a 32Kword 12bit machine it's possible. > Generally speaking there isn't a C compiler for PDP-8 I know of and the > 4k paged addressing and very minimalist instruction set would be an > interesting challenge. I've seen Fortan, Focal, Basic and even algol > on an 8 but never C. I don't expect to ever see a true C compiler for the PDP-8. The lack of stacks, etc. are easily gotten around, but the 12 bit word size isn't. On a PDP-8, a short (or a pointer, for that matter) would have to be 2 words (and a long would be 3). The C data types just don't fit efficiently into 12 bit words. So writing a C compiler would be difficult, and the resulting code would be horrible (at least by PDP-8 standards) :-). Now a "C-like" language, with 12-bit shorts and ints, would be kinda cool. (To generate efficient code, it would likely need to have something like "near" and "far" pointers, though.) Vince From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon May 9 09:40:55 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 09:40:55 -0500 Subject: IBM Manuals - et al, On EBay References: <200505090511.j495BTop021116@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <00b601c554a5$1cf7dc30$58406b43@66067007> Thanks for the url, I bid on two of the manuals. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" To: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 12:11 AM Subject: Re: IBM Manuals - et al, On EBay > To make this quicker for others, here's a URL: > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZbilld2626 > > De > From kth at srv.net Mon May 9 11:56:26 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:56:26 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050509101130.052c83b0@mail> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.1.2.2.20050509101130.052c83b0@mail> Message-ID: <427F963A.8040901@srv.net> John Foust wrote: >I remember the Basic+ "decompiler"... but it was simply detokenizing >and not turning a p-code back into BASIC, was it? > >- John > > There were Basic+ decompilers that would produce normal basic+ programs as output. All your comments and formatting would be lost. They usually had problems with strange items like implied 'until's, but usually did a good job. I actually used a couple of versions. Very useful for those programs where the source code was lost. One version I used would notice if you tried to decompile itself, and would output PRINT ''Type "?" for Help' PRINT "[]"; \ GET \ FIELD RECOUNT AS A$ DECOMPILE A$ END From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 9 11:34:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:34:21 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.1.2.2.20050509101130.052c83b0@mail> Message-ID: <17023.37133.255780.883478@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 08:58 AM 5/9/2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> I believe the main reason is to make the code smaller. P-code >> compilers have been used on the PDP-11 (the Algol compiler was >> ported there, and Fortran-4 was P-code). Basic-Plus is P-code of >> course, and so is Forth. Then there is UCSD Pascal. John> I remember the Basic+ "decompiler"... but it was simply John> detokenizing and not turning a p-code back into BASIC, was it? I would assume so; going all the way back to BASIC would be rather hard. On the other hand, there was RT11 BASIC, which also used a compact internal format, but that one was sufficiently close to the source that a LIST command would reconstruct the source code from the compacted internal form. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 9 11:37:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:37:52 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <427F8E4A.7040601@srv.net> Message-ID: <17023.37344.493368.923505@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> I think that C really needs to have a stack to be useful: Kevin> recursive calls, pass by (alterable) value, multiple levels of Kevin> local variables, etc. At least it is much easier to implement Kevin> if you have a stack. Kevin> Does there exist a good C compiler for any machine lacking a Kevin> stack? There is no "machine lacking a stack". There are plenty of machines that don't have a "hardware stack" or stack-oriented instructions, or stack-oriented addressing modes. The Cyber, IBM S/360 and its successors, many (perhaps all) DSPs, etc. all come to mind. But on such machines, creating a stack is just a trivial programming exercise, and C compilers of course do just that. There's a GCC for the S/390, just to name one example. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 9 11:49:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 10:49:11 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17023.37133.255780.883478@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <17023.27810.709000.268886@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.1.2.2.20050509101130.052c83b0@mail> <17023.37133.255780.883478@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <427F9487.1020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: > detokenizing and not turning a p-code back into BASIC, was it? > >I would assume so; going all the way back to BASIC would be rather >hard. > >On the other hand, there was RT11 BASIC, which also used a compact >internal format, but that one was sufficiently close to the source >that a LIST command would reconstruct the source code from the >compacted internal form. > > > Basic 09 ( 6809 OS9 Basic ) Also would do the same thing. This was too nice a programing language to be called Basic. It also compiled into a Internal Code or Machine code depending how fast you wanted to run. > paul > >. > > > From allain at panix.com Mon May 9 13:39:11 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:39:11 -0400 Subject: RL02 moron? References: Message-ID: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Meaning me as the moron... I was trying to activate somebodies 11/23-RL02 system this morning and had fun cabling it up, etc. But I was not able to get the RL02 up. I was able to: Find all the power switches including the master. Read the booting sequence from the terse manual. Ensure that the RL02 was cabled to the CPU, and terminated. Get the VT100 to run the bootstrap up to the disk load point. Seat the pack and it's cover and re-close the drive. See the load light come on. Depress the load switch: The light goes off immediately. Hear 15 seconds quiet of revving up. The load light stays off. We did Not see: The load light ever flash or come back on. The Ready light never comes on. Rebooting just the CPU at this point does not change the status. Attempting to load the disk just error dumped to an address. I had used several CDC type pack drives in the early 90's, but never an RL02. Was I doing something stupid? Your help is appreciated. John A. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 9 13:44:41 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:44:41 +0100 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c554c7$2aac57d0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >To that end, I was just thinking the other day that I better stash away a >generic crap 386 clone before I stop coming across them. We'll need >samples to demonstrate to people 20-30 years now the low-point of >computing in our more recent era ;) What makes you think things cannot get any worse :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From allain at panix.com Mon May 9 13:53:06 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:53:06 -0400 Subject: 1980's Word Processing converter References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004f01c554c8$571c6c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> In case somebody out there is going nuts looking for a converter for early model word processors, I went to see this sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5192961898 The paper on the front of the machine is detailed here: http://www.panix.com/~allain/P5090005e.jpg This machine is actually a converter for about 100 different 5.25" and 8" Word processing formats. The paper says: "Antares CF4661, Landart Systems, 1988" and then lists about a hundred formats. John A. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 9 14:08:55 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:08:55 +0100 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <427FB547.1080001@gjcp.net> John Allain wrote: > Meaning me as the moron... > > I was trying to activate somebodies 11/23-RL02 system > this morning and had fun cabling it up, etc. > But I was not able to get the RL02 up. > > I was able to: > Find all the power switches including the master. > Read the booting sequence from the terse manual. > Ensure that the RL02 was cabled to the CPU, and terminated. > Get the VT100 to run the bootstrap up to the disk load point. > Seat the pack and it's cover and re-close the drive. > See the load light come on. > Depress the load switch: The light goes off immediately. > Hear 15 seconds quiet of revving up. > The load light stays off. > We did Not see: > The load light ever flash or come back on. > The Ready light never comes on. > > Rebooting just the CPU at this point does not change the status. > Attempting to load the disk just error dumped to an address. > > I had used several CDC type pack drives in the early 90's, > but never an RL02. Was I doing something stupid? > Your help is appreciated. > > John A. > Check that the bulb hasn't blown. Seriously. I won't even tell you how much time I wasted with that the first time I got my hands on an RL02... Gordon. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon May 9 14:09:12 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 14:09:12 -0500 Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? In-Reply-To: <200505091707.j49H7U8b074074@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505091707.j49H7U8b074074@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 09 May 2005 12:07:36 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >I knew I had the Tally Model 420 manual somewhere, and amazingly it was >where I thought I'd put it.... Thanks very much, this is exactly the kind of information I needed! >Don't ask me where to get these lubricants.... It won't be punching miles of tape so sewing machine oil will probably work in the mechanism (there is a sticker on the Lexan cover that indicates the "light turbine oil"). >Having built a PC04 (well, converted a PC05 into one...) I seem to >remember that the DEC punch mechanism is a synchronous one. The motor >runs all the time, turnign the camshaft, you get a pulse per revolution You recall correctly. I found the PC04/05 manual as well as the PC8E interface schematics on bitsavers.org. I think your approach to clock the interface card at slightly below the maximum punch rate is a good one. I would use a one-shot to "reply" the sync pulse to the PC8E but then it wouldn't have any way to start the first character. >Alas the manaul tells me that a mating connector is supplied with the >machine. Not a lot of help... It seems that Continental Connector is still in business and that 25034 is a member of their 250 series power connector family. I'm waiting for a reply from their sales dept. to find out where to buy a single quantity... thank goodness for the Web! -Charles From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 9 14:25:03 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 14:25:03 -0500 Subject: 1980's Word Processing converter In-Reply-To: <004f01c554c8$571c6c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <004f01c554c8$571c6c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050509142144.04f69e88@mail> At 01:53 PM 5/9/2005, you wrote: >The paper says: "Antares CF4661, Landart Systems, 1988" >and then lists about a hundred formats. Hmm, a little quick googling shows them only in circa 1987 references from the Legion of Doom, spreading lists of Telenet nodes, and they're listed as having a TOPS-20 system. Another link turned up a resume that said they were still a service / support bureau in 1995. - John From dundas at caltech.edu Mon May 9 15:09:41 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 13:09:41 -0700 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <427FB547.1080001@gjcp.net> References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <427FB547.1080001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: I wouldn't say you're a moron; sometimes these things have problems. Looks like you got past the first common problem with RL0xs: the RL/RLV controller must be active for the drive to acquire timing information. But as Gordon posted, checking the lights is also important. I needed to replace the bulbs in my drive as well. Found a company here in Pasadena that has them for a reasonable cost, thanks to Tim Shoppa. But sadly, my drive once worked but not longer works also. I am not in a position to spend some quality time with it yet. John From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 9 15:39:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:39:35 -0400 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <427FCA87.nail741119NRO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The Ready light never comes on It *could* be that the ready bulb is burnt out. In fact, it's rather likely. Tim. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 9 16:31:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:31:00 -0500 Subject: Now hard drives too. Re: Modern floppy disk question... In-Reply-To: <427BBD90.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200505061636.JAA15095@clulw009.amd.com> <427BB88A.3070004@Rikers.org> <427BBD90.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <427FD694.2090502@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Speaking of old HD's don't forget many old drives had special > drivers that hacked into DOS. So save the drivers and formating > stuff and DOS now* before your HD fails. This reminds me of the (Quantum) Plus hardcard series. I have 4 of them -- some 8-bit ISA and some 16-bit ISA -- and all of them have gone bad because the EPROM that holds the onboard BIOS has "faded" (which is odd because only two of them have the little window, the other two are sealed). Without the BIOS, you can't access the drive because the controllers are, IIRC, nonstandard. (BTW, if anyone thinks they can use them, they're yours -- I'm very close to just tossing them out.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon May 9 16:57:58 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:57:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200505091707.j49H745O074047@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505091707.j49H745O074047@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2005 Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 9 May 2005, Christian Corti wrote: > > > Porting a Z-Code interpreter to a new machine is a nice exercise. In my > > case I ported the Infocom interpreter from the InfoTaskforce (written in > > C) to the IBM 5110 (yes, the 5110, not the 5150) in machine language (yes, > > you can program that beast in machine language, it has a very nice > > instruction set IMHO). The binary's size is only 9.5kB and will run any V3 > > games. It includes save/restore, a paging mechanism for fetching needed > > non-resident code parts from disk (and throwing out LRU ones), line > > wrapping / 'more'-style pausing for the 64x16 display etc. > > The interpreter requires at least one 5114 disk drive and 16kB of RWS. If > > more RWS is available, less page swapping is needed during the game. > > Totally cool! Was this just for fun or did Infocom suspect a 5100 series > market and hire you to do it? :) > > > Anyone interested in playing Zork on an IBM 5110 ? > > For certain. I just need to find a 5110 first :/ For that matter, I've written ZEMU, which is a Z-machine implementation for the PDP-11. Runs on RSX and RT-11. Should probably work on RSTS/E as well, but might need some tweaking. Plays anything from version 1 to 8, I believe. I've tested it some on Zork Zero (which is my only V6 game), and it works as far as expected, considering that it don't appear to work without special hacks that I haven't done. V3 to V5 has done major testing and works like a charm however. ZEMU is written entirely in MACRO-11, and is only understands DEC terminals. But it does do some pretty good work and tricks with the terminals. Very nice if I may say so myself. :-) Oh, and the source is available. The RT-11 work was done by Megan Gentry. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 9 17:04:13 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:04:13 -0400 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <427FDE5D.3080403@atarimuseum.com> List your devices, see if the system see's it online, try mounting it and set def to the drive and see if you can access it. Curt John Allain wrote: >Meaning me as the moron... > >I was trying to activate somebodies 11/23-RL02 system >this morning and had fun cabling it up, etc. >But I was not able to get the RL02 up. > >I was able to: > Find all the power switches including the master. > Read the booting sequence from the terse manual. > Ensure that the RL02 was cabled to the CPU, and terminated. > Get the VT100 to run the bootstrap up to the disk load point. > Seat the pack and it's cover and re-close the drive. > See the load light come on. > Depress the load switch: The light goes off immediately. > Hear 15 seconds quiet of revving up. > The load light stays off. >We did Not see: > The load light ever flash or come back on. > The Ready light never comes on. > > Rebooting just the CPU at this point does not change the status. > Attempting to load the disk just error dumped to an address. > >I had used several CDC type pack drives in the early 90's, >but never an RL02. Was I doing something stupid? >Your help is appreciated. > >John A. > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 17:56:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:56:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 5 07:03:35 pm Message-ID: > Not sure if you're trolling :-) but I would HOPE that the "10 year rule" is > invalid and that the new rule is "anything that ISN'T what is currently sold > today". Meaning, Windows PCs and Mac OS X -- everything else, being around 10 One minor problem (I hope...). Unix-like OSes and machines to run are still sold today, in that I can go to a PC shop and buy a modern PC and a book with a Linux CD-ROM in the back.... Now this list is not appropriate for linux discussions in general (there are many better places for such things), but surely we can talk about old unix boxen... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 17:58:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:58:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <001c01c55439$7303b8e0$c3781941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at May 8, 5 09:49:59 pm Message-ID: > So who did make the best CGA monitor? The only one I have is a Tandy CM-11 Barco? I would be suprised if they didn't make a monitor with digital RGBI inputs, and back then Barco mnitors were nothing short of excellent. Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones do. Admittedly they're analogue, with a separate composite sync signal, but it's fairly easy to convert the CGA signals into that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 18:16:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:16:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 9, 5 02:39:11 pm Message-ID: > > Meaning me as the moron... > > I was trying to activate somebodies 11/23-RL02 system > this morning and had fun cabling it up, etc. > But I was not able to get the RL02 up. > > I was able to: > Find all the power switches including the master. > Read the booting sequence from the terse manual. > Ensure that the RL02 was cabled to the CPU, and terminated. > Get the VT100 to run the bootstrap up to the disk load point. > Seat the pack and it's cover and re-close the drive. > See the load light come on. > Depress the load switch: The light goes off immediately. > Hear 15 seconds quiet of revving up. > The load light stays off. > We did Not see: > The load light ever flash or come back on. > The Ready light never comes on. First thing : check the bulbs in the RL02 switches. The caps just pull off, then the bulbs pull out (wedge-ended all-glass bulbs). If I need to tell you how to test them, you haven't a hope of finding logic problems in the '11 or drives :-) In particular, make sure the fault lamp bulb is OK. I want to be sure the drive isn't indicating a fault. In fact you might try powering down and disconnecting the controller cable from the RL02. Then power up. The drive fault lamp should come on (loss of the drive clock). If not, then we ened to find out why not. It sounds like the heads aren't loading. There is a mechanical lock on the positioned to lock the heads for shipping. Make sure it's not locked!. Then stick a pack in and take off the drive logic access cover (4 captive screws on top, unhook it from under the drive cartridge access door). Hookl the cover onto the back edge of the drive, then lift the R/W module (in the middle), hook that on the side of its hole without unplgging anything. You can now see the positioner and heads. Power up, hit the load switch, and see if the heads move at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 18:05:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:05:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 8, 5 11:12:02 pm Message-ID: > I think you're wrong. Look at how far we've come and how fast. > > 1950 -> 1960 Major leaps in computing technology > 1960 -> 1970 Much change, but not as much as the previous decade > 1970 -> 1980 Everything gets smaller, cheaper, and on a single chip > 1980 -> 1990 Refinement of what came out in the 1970s > 1990 -> 2000 PC dreck > > The timeline is getting compressed. Stuff that took 10-20 years to be > considered "ancient" or even "retro" is now only taking 5-10. I see it the other way. A lot changed between, say 1960 and 1970. The older machines were still useful and in use in 1970, but the then-current machines were quite different. Whereas now, all that's happening is the clock rate is going up. OK, that's something of an oversimplfication, but not much :-). Todays PC and a PC of 5 years ago are still the same, broken, design. So today's stuff will take longer to become classic, simply because it's not reallyt changing so fast. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 18:20:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:20:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper tape punch interfacing? In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at May 9, 5 02:09:12 pm Message-ID: > It won't be punching miles of tape so sewing machine oil will > probably work in the mechanism (there is a sticker on the Lexan > cover that indicates the "light turbine oil"). Would you believe I even have a tin of the oil (!). It's the sort of tin you open with a can opener, and it's never been used. But I also have a Tally 420 that will need it one day. > > >Having built a PC04 (well, converted a PC05 into one...) I seem to > >remember that the DEC punch mechanism is a synchronous one. The motor > >runs all the time, turnign the camshaft, you get a pulse per revolution > > You recall correctly. I found the PC04/05 manual as well as the > PC8E interface schematics on bitsavers.org. I think your approach > to clock the interface card at slightly below the maximum punch > rate is a good one. I would use a one-shot to "reply" the sync > pulse to the PC8E but then it wouldn't have any way to start the > first character. It's also easier to make a stable-frequency clock than a stable 1-shot... Thinking aobut this, you might need to trigger a 1-shot off the feed solenoid signal coming from the PC8E to provide the right pulse width to drive the Tally 420. You can then use the output of that to gate the data channel signals. You will need to experiment a bit, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 18:21:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:21:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <427FCA87.nail741119NRO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at May 9, 5 04:39:35 pm Message-ID: > > > The Ready light never comes on > > It *could* be that the ready bulb is burnt out. In fact, it's rather > likely. Ands the reason it doesn't boot from that drive is a separate fault? -tony From allain at panix.com Mon May 9 18:40:45 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:40:45 -0400 Subject: RL02 moron? References: <004101c554c6$64e7d560$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <427FDE5D.3080403@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <000f01c554f0$85d462a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > List your devices, see if the system see's it online, try mounting > it and set def to the drive and see if you can access it. This is an 11/23 (How to do a list there?) with it's primary O/S on That RL02 (no set def command in memory yet). John A. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon May 9 18:37:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505092347.TAA23437@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > One minor problem (I hope...). Unix-like OSes and machines to run > are still sold today, in that I can go to a PC shop and buy a modern > PC and a book with a Linux CD-ROM in the back.... > Now this list is not appropriate for linux discussions in general > (there are many better places for such things), but surely we can > talk about old unix boxen... Yes - but not in their capacities as generic Unix boxen. (Except peripherally, in much the same way that we tolerate some discussion of modern Wintel stuff, or just about anything else for tha matter, provided it's got some suitable relevance.) That is, if someone were to ask here (about a Unix) "how do I see what's in a directory?" I'd say it's off-topic, or at least inappropriate, even if the Unix variant in question happens to be V7 running on a PDP-11 - because it's really a generic Unix question. (Of course, context can modify this; if the poster goes on to say something like "ls doesn't work for me because..." and makes it relevant to the way(s) in which the box is outside the commodity-Unix-box paradigm, then I'd be fine with it.) And of course not everything inappropriate needs slapping down. One of the things I like about our mini-society is that we *are* a mini-society and do a certain amount of socializing and the like, even if it is, strictly, not proper subject matter for the list. (But that needs to be kept in moderation, too.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bshannon at tiac.net Mon May 9 19:09:05 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:09:05 -0400 Subject: Free to a new home (local pickup only) References: <206.9dd489.2fb04662@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c554f4$7b781d70$0100a8c0@screamer> NEC 7715 spinwriter, complete, has not been run in years. Stored indoors only. I think this came off of an Apollo diskless server, so its setup for an RS-232 interface. Located in centeral MA. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 9 19:15:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:15:15 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 9 May 2005 23:56:17 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Not sure if you're trolling :-) but I would HOPE that the "10 year > > rule" is invalid and that the new rule is "anything that ISN'T what > > is currently sold today". Meaning, Windows PCs and Mac OS X -- > > everything else, being around 10 > > One minor problem (I hope...). Unix-like OSes and machines to run are > still sold today, in that I can go to a PC shop and buy a modern PC > and a book with a Linux CD-ROM in the back.... > > Now this list is not appropriate for linux discussions in general > (there are many better places for such things), but surely we can talk > about old unix boxen... > > -tony I consider 'classic UNIX hardware' to be anything that isn't a PC, especially machines specifically designed for UNIX. I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a pee-cee. It runs a Xenix produced by Microsoft (pre-SCO) and is classic hardware. And is evidence of a slice of history now mostly forgotten, i.e. the days of Microsoft before the IBM-PC deal, when they were actually a UNIX vendor for the 8086 processor. Early Sun boxes are also classic. My oldest Power1 RS/6000 box is classic hardware. Truly classic UNIX would be DEC hardware running 'Ancient UNIX' of course. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 9 19:18:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:18:50 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <427EA905.9010408@oldskool.org> References: <000901c553c3$75be48a0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <427EA905.9010408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050509191850.6c3bd533.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 08 May 2005 19:04:21 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > There's also a commercial Pocket PC-XT ($40), and a port of the MAME > > Do you have more information on this? I would love to carry around a > pocket XT (that didn't cost $200 like HP 200lx's do) You should get an HP 95LX. Mine set me back under $40 on eBay and it's a full XT. I have masm installed and fiddle with assembly language on it. It's not anywhere near as nice or expandable as the HP 100LX or 200LX but the price is sure right. The HP pocket machines have the distinction of coming from the HP Corvalis division, the folks who made the HP calculators. These machines have the same build quality as the HP calculators. From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon May 9 19:22:04 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 19:22:04 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 5/9/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Mon, 9 May 2005 23:56:17 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Not sure if you're trolling :-) but I would HOPE that the "10 year > > > rule" is invalid and that the new rule is "anything that ISN'T what > > > is currently sold today". Meaning, Windows PCs and Mac OS X -- > > > everything else, being around 10 > > > > One minor problem (I hope...). Unix-like OSes and machines to run are > > still sold today, in that I can go to a PC shop and buy a modern PC > > and a book with a Linux CD-ROM in the back.... > > > > Now this list is not appropriate for linux discussions in general > > (there are many better places for such things), but surely we can talk > > about old unix boxen... > > > > -tony > > I consider 'classic UNIX hardware' to be anything that isn't a PC, > especially machines specifically designed for UNIX. I have an Altos > 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a pee-cee. This seems to be the general consensus, not only in the classiccmp lists but pretty much any "older" environment of which I've been a member. For instance, it's very close to the definition over at freeshell.org , AKA Super Dimensional Fortress. They run *BSD on Alpha, as a descendant of the AT&T 3b2's all the way back to an APPLE ][e. -dhbarr. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon May 9 19:25:02 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:25:02 -0700 Subject: Data General Eclipse Mislisted on epay References: <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <427FFF5E.F9C77ADA@msm.umr.edu> Data General Eclipse Mislisted on epay "ECLIPSE S/230 COMPUTER ALTAIR IMSAI" Item number: 5194207191 Sale listing ends 5/10 at 11am PDT Hope this gets thru to interested parties in time. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 9 19:29:40 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <20050509191850.6c3bd533.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "May 9, 5 07:18:50 pm" Message-ID: <200505100029.RAA16404@floodgap.com> > > Do you have more information on this? I would love to carry around a > > pocket XT (that didn't cost $200 like HP 200lx's do) > > You should get an HP 95LX. Mine set me back under $40 on eBay and it's > a full XT. I have masm installed and fiddle with assembly language on > it. It's not anywhere near as nice or expandable as the HP 100LX or > 200LX but the price is sure right. I also have a stack of 95LXes. They're cheap and in the rush for the bigger better LX series palmtops are often overlooked. Mine was my only PDA until I got a Palm. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!" ----------------- From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 9 19:39:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <006a01c554a7$ea769a00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > > I think you're wrong. Look at how far we've come and how fast. > > Yeah, I could be wrong. And in this case, I'd be very happy to be wrong. > > Again, let's table this for discussion until it's appropriate - which is > when PC/Windows machines are no longer the current paradigm. I say it's > going to be many many years, you say it's not - but neither really matters, > let's see what happens :) I wasn't arguing regarding the "rule". I think the updated definition is fine. I would just as soon not argue over it ever again and just hope people have enough sense to understand what "classic" means. I was just pointing out that things are becoming "classic" more quickly than you might imagine ;) I also used to think PCs wouldn't be classic or interesting for decades, but that's proving to be completely wrong--at least in my case. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 9 19:47:16 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:47:16 -0400 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42800494.nail9IN111Z3P@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > And the reason it doesn't boot from that drive is a separate fault? Maybe it's a non-bootable pack without the "bozo" boot block telling you it's not bootable. If the RL02 drive is working right and the heads don't load, I think it'll spin back down after some finite (measured in tens of seconds) of time. If the RL02 drive isn't working right then it may indeed end up in some indeterminate state. Lack of clock from the controller can cause some rather weird symptoms, as can lack of termination. Sometimes without termination it works, other times it just spins and never comes ready.... Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 9 19:54:41 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:54:41 -0400 Subject: Musings on drive form factors Message-ID: <42800651.nail9NP1Z0OXP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> 14" drives - full rack width, with room for some casting on either side. 8" drives - two side-by-side in a rack width. (Perfect fit, in fact.) 5.25" drives - probably completely unconstrained by rack widths. I think a recent document on bitsavers details the IBM DemiDiskette, which was something like 4" :-). Height of a FH 5.25" drive is the same as an 8" drive. 3.5" drives - ???? No idea There was a joke in BYTE in the early 80's about diskette manufacturers keeping the punched out "holes" from each size of floppy for use as future floppy sizes :-). Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 9 20:07:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:07:48 -0500 Subject: Data General Eclipse Mislisted on epay References: <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> <427FFF5E.F9C77ADA@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00f001c554fc$f647a770$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > "ECLIPSE S/230 COMPUTER ALTAIR IMSAI" Yeah, I was watching this. I thought it was a bit pricey for just the cpu. Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 01:59:06 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:59:06 +0100 Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <000f01c554f0$85d462a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> > > List your devices, see if the system see's it online, try > mounting it > > and set def to the drive and see if you can access it. > > This is an 11/23 (How to do a list there?) with it's primary > O/S on That RL02 (no set def command in memory yet). You can't if you're booting RT11, IIRC the system will try and boot from whatever is at address 7772150, in your case hopefully an RLV12. Did the system boot from an RL02 before? I'm also assuming you mean a rackmount 11/23 as opposed to a micro 11/23 in a BA2(1)3 floor standing enclosure. Also, it's good to see my initial guess about the drive heads not loading may prove to be right - I didn't post that because I couldn't tell you what to do next :) You can actually hear them load if they're working correctly; if they're not then the fault light comes on. I really should drag my own micro 11/23 down here so I can test my own RL02....it hasn't been powered up for many years now. cheers a From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 10 09:03:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay References: <001c01c55439$7303b8e0$c3781941@game> Message-ID: <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones Tony> do. Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end monitors might, but your average TV set starts with an RF input, next would add composite video, then S-video, finally "component video" which is the 3 components of the color TV transmission split apart. After that you might see the digital video interface, and RGB. paul From GOOI at oce.nl Tue May 10 09:11:54 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:11:54 +0200 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C65@gd-mail03.oce.nl> My guess is that Tony is thinking of the SCART plug. It has the green, blue and red connection pins and also the audio channel, IIRC. - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: dinsdag 10 mei 2005 16:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: CGA monitor on eBay > > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones > Tony> do. > > Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end > monitors might, but your average TV set starts with an RF input, next > would add composite video, then S-video, finally "component video" > which is the 3 components of the color TV transmission split apart. > After that you might see the digital video interface, and RGB. > > paul From allain at panix.com Tue May 10 09:17:25 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:17:25 -0400 Subject: OT: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers References: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an RS232 monitor? My cousin wants somebody to debug a serial device for him. Alternately, anybody in the northeast with a bidirectional serial comm monitor they can loan out for a few days, get in touch. John A. From bkotaska at charter.net Tue May 10 09:59:48 2005 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:59:48 -0500 Subject: More Teletype Questions Message-ID: <001601c55570$eaf12ee0$0500a8c0@ath700> My teletype is the TWX type with a 101C data set (modem) in the stand. The CCU has a touch tone dialer and 6 lighted pushbuttons at the bottom. It appears the CCU wiring is mostly an extension of the data set wiring. There are two 50 pin connecters routing wires between the two. I am trying to track down the local mode current generator. I believe it originates in the data set. Anyone know if this is correct? I can't find any circuitry in my CCU which generates this. With the data set connected I get no local mode current so the selector continously cycles. I can disconnect the data set and inject a current to get it to stop. Does anyone have a schematic for the 101C or the CCU in the teletype? There are some descriptions (text only) in the ASR manuals but not enough for troubleshooting. My only other option is to start trying to trace the wiring. Given the 7 circuit cards and numerous relays in the data set, this would be a very big job. Thanks, Bill From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 10 09:45:58 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:45:58 -0400 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001c01c55439$7303b8e0$c3781941@game> <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4280C926.7080002@atarimuseum.com> Many new TV, especially HDTV's are now coming with a plethora of inputs, most TV's now have the RF/Composite and SVideo as standard or at least one the low end RF & Composite. HDTV's have all of those, plus component, HDMI and VGA in. A lot of early high end Sony TV's had RGB in, you can find some great 20-27" used Sony TVs with all inputs for very good prices on Ebay and those TVs last forever it seems, really good quality tubes and flybacks. Curt Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones > Tony> do. > >Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end >monitors might, but your average TV set starts with an RF input, next >would add composite video, then S-video, finally "component video" >which is the 3 components of the color TV transmission split apart. >After that you might see the digital video interface, and RGB. > > paul > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 10 09:48:18 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:48:18 -0400 Subject: OT: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4280C9B2.4010108@atarimuseum.com> You can download a trial version of some of the serial monitors that are on-line: http://www.aggsoft.com/download/ You can get 2 weeks worth of use out of them before they timeout. Curt John Allain wrote: >Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an >RS232 monitor? My cousin wants somebody to debug a serial device for >him. > >Alternately, anybody in the northeast with a bidirectional serial comm >monitor they can loan out for a few days, get in touch. > >John A. > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue May 10 09:48:43 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:48:43 +0200 Subject: OT: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050510144843.GG8176@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2005-05-10 10:17:25 -0400, John Allain wrote: > Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an > RS232 monitor? My cousin wants somebody to debug a serial device for > him. The Linux-based OS "Debian" ships with a package called 'snooper', which reads as if it could fulfill your needs: $ apt-cache show snooper Package: snooper Priority: optional Section: comm Installed-Size: 38 Maintainer: David Coe Architecture: i386 Version: 19991202-3 Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.5-13), liblockdev1, libncurses5 (>= 5.2.20020112a-1) Filename: pool/main/s/snooper/snooper_19991202-3_i386.deb Size: 15216 MD5sum: 2896d70d54ffdfafe59016242fc19d59 Description: Captures communication between two external serial devices Snooper passes data transparently between two serial (RS232C) devices, capturing and logging the data and occasional comments you want to insert into the logs. . It is useful for debugging or analyzing the communications protocol between two devices that would normally be connected directly to each other, e.g. a digital camera and a personal computer. By sitting "in the middle" (after you connect the two devices to serial ports on your Linux machine) snooper is able to capture data traveling in either direction while also passing it unmodified to the other device. . It is also possible to operate with a single serial device, using your console and keyboard as the second device. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From asholz at topinform.de Mon May 9 10:40:03 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:40:03 +0200 Subject: RK05 - PDP8 Media In-Reply-To: <001e01c4fe4e$bcb41840$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <001e01c4fe4e$bcb41840$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <427F8453.1090700@topinform.com> Hi all, as I got a PDP8E and an RK05 yesterday I'm looking for ONE media for the rk05 drive. Andreas From korpela at gmail.com Mon May 9 10:55:24 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:55:24 -0700 Subject: BDS C In-Reply-To: <20050508234809.I10273@localhost> References: <200505081319.j48DJ29J025758@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050508234809.I10273@localhost> Message-ID: If you are looking for a CP/M compiler today, don't forget Hi-Tech's compiler. (Do they still offer it free on the web? I don't see their site, but I do see others offering it.) I seem to recall theirs is Z80 only, but it has the advantage of being nealy ANSI, which is good for those of us who no longer type in K&R syntax. Eric From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue May 10 10:09:12 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:09:12 +0200 Subject: OT: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050510150912.GH8176@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2005-05-10 10:17:25 -0400, John Allain wrote: > Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an > RS232 monitor? My cousin wants somebody to debug a serial device for > him. [1st email seems to be lost...] Debian (a Linux derivate) ships with 'snooper', which was downloaded from ftp://ftp.foretune.co.jp/pub/tools/snooper/ . MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 10 10:17:10 2005 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:17:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: need info RE: Dataram DR118A core In-Reply-To: <0IG8002XZ8RS7RN7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200505101517.KAA04759@caesar.cs.umn.edu> There is a plastic 16 pin DIP box on the top circuit board, in the middle of the board near the bottom. It is socketed. If you are careful, you cal remove the top of the box without pulling the entire thing out of the socket. This will reveal the 4 jumper wires you need to move in order to configure it. If I recall correctly, the 8 pins on the left correspond to the 8 possible 4K memory fields, and the middle 4 pins on the right correspond to the actual memory fields on the DR-118. -Larry LeMay > > Real simple one but lacking data... > > I have a Dataram DR-118A 16KWx12bit core for PDP-8 omnibus. > what I need is the setup to configure it as the first 16k > in the system. This way my PDP-8f will have 24k of operating > core. > > The points for this on the board are P1 and TB1, I think. > > Allison > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 10 10:21:35 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:21:35 -0500 Subject: BDS C In-Reply-To: References: <200505081319.j48DJ29J025758@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050508234809.I10273@localhost> Message-ID: <4280D17F.3020503@pacbell.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: > If you are looking for a CP/M compiler today, don't forget Hi-Tech's > compiler. (Do they still offer it free on the web? I don't see their > site, but I do see others offering it.) I seem to recall theirs is > Z80 only, but it has the advantage of being nealy ANSI, which is good > for those of us who no longer type in K&R syntax. > > Eric Is this the link you are looking for? http://www.htsoft.com/products/CPM.php From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 10 11:12:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:12:13 -0400 Subject: RK05 - PDP8 Media In-Reply-To: <427F8453.1090700@topinform.com> References: <001e01c4fe4e$bcb41840$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <427F8453.1090700@topinform.com> Message-ID: On 5/9/05, Andreas Holz wrote: > Hi all, > > as I got a PDP8E and an RK05 yesterday I'm looking for ONE media for the > rk05 drive. That's a toughie. It took me years and the kindness of list members to rectify my lack of 16-sector media. I have wads and wads of 12-sector packs (PDP-11), but that doesn't help. Since this is a re-occurring question, I might as well launch into the two methods we've hashed about repeatedly to resolve the lack of 16-sector media... 1) modify the hub of a 12-sector pack to have cuts at the right places (plug some old ones, cut some new ones), and 2) build a circuit between the hub sensor and the drive electronics to read the pulses from a 12-sector pack and emit pulses as if it were a 16-sector pack. Since I managed to score media before I have had the chance to fire up my RK8E, I have never had the need to try either of these hacks, but in principle they should work. Hack 1 would remake a 12-sector pack into a real 16-sector pack that could be mounted on any drive anywhere, but requires each pack be modded. Hack 2 would only be useful for interchance with a similarly modified drive. One advantage of Hack 2 is that the mod would be easy to make in a completely reversible fashion, whereas Hack 1 would not be quite so bi-directional. One possible compromise between the two would be to locate a crashed 16-sector pack and steal a platter from a 12-sector pack... Good luck on your search. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 10 11:41:12 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > pee-cee. Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than with the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes to my mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 10 11:56:17 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:56:17 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4280E7B1.40601@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >>I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a >>pee-cee. > > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? > > I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than with > the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes to my > mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). The SGI 320 and 540 are arguably not PeeCees even though they run Windows. The firmware is nothing like the normal x86 BIOS. Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 10 12:06:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:06:13 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <0IGA00LOIA5J5ZO2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC > From: der Mouse > Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a >> pee-cee. > >Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there >built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? There were many multibus systems that used the 8086 (or 88) even before the PC. I used one in summer of '81 with 4 NEC 8" DSDD drives for 4mb online floppy and just under 1mb ram (the top 128K had ram and rom mixed). Ran at 8mhz too. Compupro had an 8085/8088 hybrid, and later there were 286 and even 386 cpus for S100. So there were a fair number of non-PC 8086/88 and even later systems. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 10 12:07:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:07:01 -0400 Subject: need info RE: Dataram DR118A core Message-ID: <0IGA007OUA6W1OF0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: need info RE: Dataram DR118A core > From: Lawrence LeMay > Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:17:10 -0500 (CDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >There is a plastic 16 pin DIP box on the top circuit board, in >the middle of the board near the bottom. It is socketed. If you >are careful, you cal remove the top of the box without pulling >the entire thing out of the socket. This will reveal the 4 >jumper wires you need to move in order to configure it. > >If I recall correctly, the 8 pins on the left correspond to >the 8 possible 4K memory fields, and the middle 4 pins on the >right correspond to the actual memory fields on the DR-118. > >-Larry LeMay Not enough info. The core I have has the DIP socket but nothing in it. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 10 12:08:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <200505101708.KAA17823@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a >> pee-cee. > >Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there >built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? Hi Convergent Technologies made a 8086 based machine that was not PeeCee. It had some expansion slots that were Multi-Bus but the processor board was not Multi-Bus. I wish I had save one from a company that I worked for that folded. Rats! Dwight > >I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than with >the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes to my >mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 10 12:10:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:10:55 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <4280E7B1.40601@mdrconsult.com> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4280E7B1.40601@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: der Mouse wrote: > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? Depending on how generous or tight ones defintion of 'peecee' is, perhaps the NCR 34xx line... ISTR we had quad P90s with 4? 8? Microchannels and wads of SCSI cards and local disks when I was at Lucent c. 1996. From one standpoint, a box the size of a small fridge is not a peecee, from the other, I was told that one could plug a VGA monitor in, boot from a DOS floppy and play Doom... I think these uber-peecees were around $100K. They were certainly tens of thousands of dollars base, plus disk. These ran UNIX, for the record, but if one ignored the multiprocessor aspect of them, they'd run Windows fine, too. -ethan From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue May 10 12:16:48 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 19:16:48 +0200 Subject: RK05 - PDP8 Media In-Reply-To: <427F8453.1090700@topinform.com> Message-ID: <4B07A0BA-C177-11D9-BF32-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am maandag, 09.05.05, um 17:40 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Andreas Holz: > Hi all, > > as I got a PDP8E and an RK05 yesterday I'm looking for ONE media for > the rk05 drive. > > Andreas Na dann Gluckwunsch. Wieviel Core ? Funktionsf?hig ? Wenn keine andere Reaktionen kommen, kannst Du mich kontaktieren wegen Rk05 medium. Bitte sei dir sicher dass das RK05 in ordnung ist (NiCd pack usw) bevor ein Medium rein kommt, die Media sind wirkliche Mangelware. Nachteil : ich verkaufe nicht, tausche nur mit anderen Classicmp Sachen. Wo : Zurich CH mfg Jos Dreesen From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 10 12:46:23 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:46:23 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200505101246.23356.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 10 May 2005 11:41, der Mouse wrote: > > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > > pee-cee. > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? > > I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than > with the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes > to my mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). There's a few that I can think of off the top of my head. DEC Rainbow. (got one at home) 8088(?) and Z80. It ran a somewhat modified version of DOS IIRC, but isn't really what I'd call a PC. NCR WorldMark 5100 - up to 32-way Pentium Pro machine, dual microchannel busses, ran NCR Unix or potentially a somewhat modified Redhat. These are in the same class as what Ethan talks about in a message, except I don't think that these are capable of running Windows. They're not classic, but Cray's (use to be OctigaBay) XD1 and their XT3 (aka Sandia's Redstorm) use AMD Opterons in a very non-PC-like configuration. Those are the examples I could think of off the top of my head. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 10 12:45:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4280E7B1.40601@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4280F342.4000201@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Depending on how generous or tight ones defintion of 'peecee' is, > perhaps the NCR 34xx line... ISTR we had quad P90s with 4? 8? > Microchannels and wads of SCSI cards and local disks when I was at > Lucent c. 1996. From one standpoint, a box the size of a small fridge > is not a peecee, from the other, I was told that one could plug a VGA > monitor in, boot from a DOS floppy and play Doom... I think these > uber-peecees were around $100K. They were certainly tens of thousands > of dollars base, plus disk. I work at Lucent, and I support these things (which I hate, btw -- I'd rather admin a clone PC running ANYTHING (BSD, Linux, whatever) than the NCR boxen I have assigned to me :-) They are more Unix-ish than a regular winbox -- multiple CPUs, Microchannel -- but they are, technically, x86 PCs. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 10 13:04:26 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:04:26 -0400 Subject: x86 non-PeeCees. In-Reply-To: <200505101246.23356.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050510135529.03a2acf8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >On Tuesday 10 May 2005 11:41, der Mouse wrote: > >DEC Rainbow. (got one at home) 8088(?) and Z80. It ran a somewhat >modified version of DOS IIRC, but isn't really what I'd call a PC. Off the top of my head: Zenith(Heathkit) Z100 -- 8085 and 8086, IIRC. Ran both CP/M and a specialized MS-DOS. Tandy 600 "laptop" -- ran Microsoft's HH/OS (Hand Held OS) - don't remember if it was an 8088 or 8086; I'll have to look next chance I get, tho it'll be a little while. CompuGraphic PowerView 5 & 10. Computerized typesetting machines; monochrome grafix. Very specialized; runs only the built-in OS. Haven't touched one in *years* so the memory's a little rusty. IIRC, 1Meg Max RAM, 80186 CPU. Somewhat "macro" programmable; I did some *weird* things with the colon character and the macro loops to make "screened areas" on forms. Only good for *small* areas -- else the computer would run out of memory (if you're lucky) or totally crash. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue May 10 13:12:35 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:12:35 +0200 Subject: need info RE: Dataram DR118A core In-Reply-To: <0IGA007OUA6W1OF0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <161AD0C2-C17F-11D9-BF32-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > Not enough info. The core I have has the DIP socket but nothing in it. > > Allison > > I have a 10 page specification for the DR118. ( may or may not be equal to a DR118A....) The DR118 exists in 8K (pn61801) and 16K versions (pn 61802) I can provide you ( and/or Al ? ) with a copy if interested. ( Low quality 7th generation photocopy I'm afraid) (if in hurry provide a fax number ...) In short : dip position 1 until 8 are the decoded enables for the 8 4K fields 0..7( generated by a 74s138) Dip position 11 to 14 are the inputs to a 74s20 the output of which is the actual enable. Position 9,10 and 15 16 are unused. Jos Dreesen From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 10 13:16:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: x86 non-PeeCees. Message-ID: <200505101816.LAA17857@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Roger Merchberger" ---snip--- > >CompuGraphic PowerView 5 & 10. Computerized typesetting machines; ---snip--- Hi There were a number of CAD machines as well but I just can't recall the names. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 10 13:18:07 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:18:07 -0500 Subject: Musings on drive form factors References: <42800651.nail9NP1Z0OXP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000601c5558c$a1130d90$213cd7d1@randylaptop> From: Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:54 PM > 14" drives - full rack width, with room for some casting on either side. > > 8" drives - two side-by-side in a rack width. (Perfect fit, in fact.) 8" drives - 8.55"W x 4.50H full height, 8.55"W x 2.28"H half height. > 5.25" drives - probably completely unconstrained by rack widths. I > think a recent document on bitsavers details the IBM DemiDiskette, > which was something like 4" :-). > > Height of a FH 5.25" drive is the same as an 8" drive. 5.25" drives - 5.75"W x 3.25"H for full height, 5.75"W x 1.63"H for half-height. > 3.5" drives - ???? No idea 3.5" drives - 4"W x 1"H > There was a joke in BYTE in the early 80's about diskette manufacturers > keeping the punched out "holes" from each size of floppy for use > as future floppy sizes :-). > > Tim. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue May 10 14:45:56 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050510194556.19332.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Don't forget the Wang Professional Computer. The Wang 'Classic' was 8086-based IIRC. It ran MSDOS but could not run PC software by default (because the BIOS was 'special', I believe). Dave > der Mouse wrote: > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What > machines are there > > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not > peecees? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 10 14:54:44 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:54:44 -0400 Subject: ebay encryption? Message-ID: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people here use ebay. Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the SSL negotiation failed to converge) Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? -brad From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 10 15:00:43 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's > server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the > SSL negotiation failed to converge) > > Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? I've seen it, with Firefox 1.0 on Solaris 9. Haven't had time to research it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 10 15:03:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers In-Reply-To: <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2005, John Allain wrote: > Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an > RS232 monitor? My cousin wants somebody to debug a serial device for > him. > > Alternately, anybody in the northeast with a bidirectional serial comm > monitor they can loan out for a few days, get in touch. Hi John. I found my copy of the software I referred to earlier. I forgot what it was called (again). E-mail me off-list to get a copy. Your cousin will still need to make up the Y cable to use it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 10 15:20:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <4280E7B1.40601@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > >>I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > >>pee-cee. > > > > > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? > > > > I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than with > > the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes to my > > mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). > > The SGI 320 and 540 are arguably not PeeCees even though they run > Windows. The firmware is nothing like the normal x86 BIOS. Convergent Technologies IWS http://wwwacs.gantep.edu.tr/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?Convergent+Technologies Convergent Technologies stackable stuff (forgot what it's called) Seattle Computer Products Gazelle (argubly non-PC) Can't think of any more off the top of my head but there are more, including the 8086 S-100 boards that CompuPro made. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 10 15:27:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:27:00 -0400 Subject: ebay encryption? References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17025.6420.973783.547635@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people Brad> here use ebay. Brad> Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained Brad> about ebay's server and being unable to match the security Brad> protocol (I'm guessing the SSL negotiation failed to converge) Brad> Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? Weird. I see the message pop up but then Mozilla does display the "locked" icon at the bottom, and clicking that produces a page that claims AES-256 is being used. This is rather disturbing. How about asking Ebay? Either we're being pharmed, or Ebay has broken its crypto setup; either way they need to do something about it. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 10 15:36:19 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:36:19 -0400 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050510163443.04fc2fc0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mike Loewen may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 10 May 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > >>Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's >>server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the >>SSL negotiation failed to converge) >> >>Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? > > I've seen it, with Firefox 1.0 on Solaris 9. Haven't had time to > research it. Datapoint: It borked on me with Firefox 1.0.3 on Win2k. I'm guessing it's ePay's fumble; they'll prolly straighten it out soon. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue May 10 15:38:24 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <59133.127.0.0.1.1115757504.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> On Tue, May 10, 2005 12:54 pm, Brad Parker said: > > I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people here use > ebay. > > Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's > server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the > SSL negotiation failed to converge) > > Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? I've seen it. I'm pretty sure it had something to do with their outage the other day (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/announce.shtml). It seems to have hosed AuctionSniper as well. . . -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 10 15:41:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:41:29 +0100 Subject: x86 non-PeeCees. In-Reply-To: <200505101816.LAA17857@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505101816.LAA17857@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42811C79.7060706@gjcp.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Roger Merchberger" > > ---snip--- > >>CompuGraphic PowerView 5 & 10. Computerized typesetting machines; > > ---snip--- > > Hi > There were a number of CAD machines as well but I > just can't recall the names. > Dwight > My Altos 386 has an 80386 (surprisingly!), 80387 and 80186 on the main board, and an 80286 on the network and six more serial ports board. Gordon. From jpl15 at panix.com Tue May 10 15:48:18 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <17025.6420.973783.547635@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> <17025.6420.973783.547635@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: > Brad> Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained > Brad> about ebay's server and being unable to match the security > Brad> protocol (I'm guessing the SSL negotiation failed to converge) > > This is rather disturbing. How about asking Ebay? Either we're being > pharmed, or Ebay has broken its crypto setup; either way they need to > do something about it. > Yesterday evening eBay suffered a rather serious meltdown, which they blame on a 'power failure' at the company in San Francisco who (apparently) does thier physical hosting. Since then, I too have been getting that meesage in Mozilla. Coincidence? Proximate cause? I dunno... Cheers From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue May 10 15:51:55 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:51:55 -0400 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC Message-ID: <20050510205154.XDRV5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 12:41 10/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a >> pee-cee. > >Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there >built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? Nabu 1600 - Ran Xenix and later QNX. I also have CP/M-86 for it. I have photos and more info on my site. Definately not a PC (serial terminals only, different disk system, proprietary memory management unit etc.) Icon - ran Qnx. It think most of these were 186 based. I just scanned the technical manual if anyone wants it. Compupro 8086 S-100 system. NEX APC, a bit PC compatible, but I think the 8" drive make it qualify as a non-PC (and it ain't THAT compatible). DEC Rainbow - dual mode, the 8086 side would probably have been considered as a "PC compatible" before people figured out that just running a port of the same OS didn't make it so. I'm sure there are lots more ... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 10 15:57:33 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:57:33 +0100 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001c01c55439$7303b8e0$c3781941@game> <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4281203D.8000906@gjcp.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > > Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones > Tony> do. > > Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end Most UK televisions outside the really, *really* budget level have RGB inputs, and have had for about 15 years... Gordon. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 10 15:56:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay encryption? Message-ID: <200505102056.NAA17907@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I think it is someone flooding their input. There have been a burst of phishing emails to my hotmail account. When people see ebay not responding they may think there is a problem with their account and fall for the phishing email. Dwight >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: > > Brad> I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people > Brad> here use ebay. > > Brad> Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained > Brad> about ebay's server and being unable to match the security > Brad> protocol (I'm guessing the SSL negotiation failed to converge) > > Brad> Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? > >Weird. > >I see the message pop up but then Mozilla does display the "locked" >icon at the bottom, and clicking that produces a page that claims >AES-256 is being used. > >This is rather disturbing. How about asking Ebay? Either we're being >pharmed, or Ebay has broken its crypto setup; either way they need to >do something about it. > > paul > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 10 16:16:34 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:16:34 -0400 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <428124B2.1090802@atarimuseum.com> Ebay was having numerous "hiccups" yesterday in general, among them was item search and SSL connections Curt Brad Parker wrote: >I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people here use >ebay. > >Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's >server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the >SSL negotiation failed to converge) > >Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? > >-brad > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue May 10 16:46:00 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:46:00 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions Message-ID: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hi folks, Having repaired my GIGI power supply and found my local copy of the user and techical manuals (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are tools available to let me convert these to PDFs?) I notice that while the manuals explicitly mention the Barco GD33 and 'monochrome monitors' they also mention 'other commercial color monitors. This begs questions that I can't try since I don't have the appropriate cables here yet, but has anyone used a GIGI on the likes of the VRT19 (19" RGB sync-on-green with 75 ohm switches like the GD33), VR262 (composite mono) and indeed the retro collector's friend the Philips CM8833 composite colour? TIA! -- Adrian/Witchy Creator/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection. www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for letting you moan about adverts! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 10 16:58:45 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:58:45 +0200 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050510235845.66f34792.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 10 May 2005 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? - Sequent build early SMP and a bit later big NUMA machines based on 80[3456]86 CPUs. The early machines run some BSD UNIX, IIRC 4.2BSD, later replaced by some SysV flavor. Finaly they supported WinNT... - Siemens MX300. The first models had some NatSemi 32k CPU, the later 80486. Used Multibus, designed to run Sinix, the Siemes interpretation of Unix. - Cray XT3. Current machine, based on AMD Opteron, "scale steadily from 200 to 30,000 processors". =:-() - SGI Visual Workstation 320 and 540, dual / quad Intel P II / P III, doomed to run WinNT but finaly there came some Linux support. - Didn't DG build some Intel based machines to replace the M88k based AViiON? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:01:57 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:01:57 +0100 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <200505102056.NAA17907@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505102056.NAA17907@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <26c11a6405051015012d8cbb4c@mail.gmail.com> On 5/10/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I think it is someone flooding their input. There > have been a burst of phishing emails to my hotmail > account. When people see ebay not responding they > may think there is a problem with their account and fall > for the phishing email. > Dwight > I have had 7 emails today, which hasn't happened before. I was wondering where they got my email address from. But I suppose they could be sending them out without knowing I have an ebay account. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 10 17:12:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:12:32 +0000 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1115763152.14621.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 22:46 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Having repaired my GIGI power supply and found my local copy of the user and > techical manuals (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are tools available to let me > convert these to PDFs?) I seem to remember doing it with Imagemagick's convert utility before - from a shell or DOS prompt it's probably as simple as: convert '*.tif' output.pdf (with scaling / rotation etc. hints as necessary) I'm not sure if it'll "explode" multi-image TIFFs and append in sequence to the output file or not without any help. Note that it's *not* quick by any means and eats memory; Imagemagick buffers everything as 32bit internally (the one thing I hate about it!) so even if you have mono images as input it's still going to treat the images as 32bit before appending to the output pdf file. For that reason some of the alternatives might be better for mono images (ISTR 'tumble' does the same job, although I've never tried it) Funnily enough the first thing I do when I download a bunch of scans in PDF format is convert them to multiple TIFF images, as they're easier to handle in whatever app is appropriate for what I'm trying to do versus some sucky PDF viewer ;-) > This begs questions that I can't try since I don't have the appropriate > cables here yet, but has anyone used a GIGI on the likes of the VRT19 (19" > RGB sync-on-green with 75 ohm switches like the GD33), VR262 (composite > mono) and indeed the retro collector's friend the Philips CM8833 composite > colour? I doubt you'll break anything trying. One of our ones certainly works on that huge TV that we normally hook up to the Domesday system... cheers J. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue May 10 17:00:50 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (als at thangorodrim.de) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:00:50 +0200 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050510220049.GA22037@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 12:41:12PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > > pee-cee. > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? AFAIK Sequent built a massive parallel system with 80386 CPUs running Dynix/ptx. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:17:06 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:17:06 -0500 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: I use Firexox on Linspire and had the message once yesterday. But what really concerns me more after reading this thread, I had seven auctions that ended this morning and most of them went without bids even though there were over 30 people "watching" each of them. I wonder if their sniping which usually happens in the last hour somehow got stifled. I also noticed that the only bids I got came from the north eastern part of the country. I am beginning to think I got hosed with three minimum bids that got away with it. On 5/10/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > I hate to ask an ebay question *here*, but I know some people here use > ebay. > > Two different browsers in the past 24 hours have complained about ebay's > server and being unable to match the security protocol (I'm guessing the > SSL negotiation failed to converge) > > Has anyone else seen this? Just curious. Any idea what it is? > > -brad > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From spc at conman.org Tue May 10 17:25:04 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 10, 2005 12:41:12 PM Message-ID: <20050510222504.EC1C373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > > pee-cee. > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? Siemens telephone switches use Intel chips (started with the 8086, back when my friend worked there they were up to 80486s I believe); software written in a proprietary langauge called Chill. -spc (Which was a very Intel x86 specific langauge ... ) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 10 17:46:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay encryption? Message-ID: <200505102246.PAA17991@clulw009.amd.com> Hi They could be getting them form just about anywhere. It could be from a post here, a friend that has had his mail box scanned or a newsgroup post. You most likely got the same ones I did. I look at the source and if there is a new address, I forward it to spoof at ebay.com. They follow up on these when they can ( contry that really cares and has laws enforces ). From other post, I suspect they were taking advantage of ebays problems. It is a good time to send out such stuff when ebay can't imediately respond. Dwight >From: "Dan Williams" > >On 5/10/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi >> I think it is someone flooding their input. There >> have been a burst of phishing emails to my hotmail >> account. When people see ebay not responding they >> may think there is a problem with their account and fall >> for the phishing email. >> Dwight >> >I have had 7 emails today, which hasn't happened before. I was >wondering where they got my email address from. But I suppose they >could be sending them out without knowing I have an ebay account. > >Dan > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 10 17:56:21 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:56:21 -0500 Subject: Looking for Magazine Message-ID: <019001c555b3$7d614200$4d406b43@66067007> Anyone have a copy of Robotic Age May 1981 I need a article from it. Thanks John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 10 18:07:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:07:20 +0000 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: References: <200505101954.j4AJsiJO011698@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1115766440.14621.79.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 17:17 -0500, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I use Firexox on Linspire and had the message once yesterday. But > what really concerns me more after reading this thread, I had seven > auctions that ended this morning and most of them went without bids > even though there were over 30 people "watching" each of them. I > wonder if their sniping which usually happens in the last hour somehow > got stifled. I also noticed that the only bids I got came from the > north eastern part of the country. I am beginning to think I got > hosed with three minimum bids that got away with it. Someone over on the BBC micro mailing list just mentioned exactly the same thing happening to them, FWIW... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 17:31:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:31:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505100029.RAA16404@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 9, 5 05:29:40 pm Message-ID: > I also have a stack of 95LXes. They're cheap and in the rush for the I also have a coyple. Great little machines, I use mine for making notes when working on classic computers (things like : 'Wires on terminal strip starting from the ledt : red, black, blcak, orange, blue') and as a portable terminal. The built-in spreadsheet (essentially Lotus 123) does all I'll ever need from such a program. And there's a reasonable calculator with an RPN mode (standard 4 level stack). I don't find the 40 column display to be a major disadvantage, in fact I find it more readable than the 80 column display of later machines. > bigger better LX series palmtops are often overlooked. Mine was my only > PDA until I got a Palm. Mine were my only PDAs until I got an HP100LX. And that's all I have now... I don't need the functions of a normal PDA. A good programmable calculator on the other hand.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 17:59:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:59:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 - PDP8 Media In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 10, 5 12:12:13 pm Message-ID: > 16-sector media... 1) modify the hub of a 12-sector pack to have cuts > at the right places (plug some old ones, cut some new ones), and 2) It should be possible to make a new indexing ring for the hub with slots in the right places. One day I might even have a go. I think I have one 16 secrtor hub, but as luck would have it, it's an alignment disk, so I am not going to modify it. > One possible compromise between the two would be to locate a crashed > 16-sector pack and steal a platter from a 12-sector pack... Be warned if you try this (or if you remove the disk from the hub for any other reason), you'll need a DTI to get it centred again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 17:33:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:33:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL02 moron? In-Reply-To: <42800494.nail9IN111Z3P@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at May 9, 5 08:47:16 pm Message-ID: > If the RL02 drive is working right and the heads don't load, I think > it'll spin back down after some finite (measured in tens of seconds) I don;'t think it does. One of the alignment procedures involves disconnecting the motor signal at an in-line connector and moving the heads by hand. There's no mention of preventing it from spinning down under these conditions. I will have to check the state machine diagrams to be sure, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 18:03:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:03:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 10, 5 12:41:12 pm Message-ID: > > > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > > pee-cee. > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? Off the top of my head (and missing out all the peripherals that contain 80x86s -- I've repaired a laser printer with an 80186 in it, I've got a modem with an 8088 as the 'DSP', etc): Rainbow HP150, HP150-II HP110, HP110+ Tandy 2000 Sirius/Victor 9000 (Those all run MS-DOS, but are not PC compatible) FTS88 FTS86 (Run an OS called FTOS-C, which is really CP/M 86) Sequent Symmetry (IIRC a set of 80386s or 80486s running in parallel) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 18:07:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:07:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101708.KAA17823@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 10, 5 10:08:43 am Message-ID: > Convergent Technologies made a 8086 based machine that > was not PeeCee. It had some expansion slots that were > Multi-Bus but the processor board was not Multi-Bus. > I wish I had save one from a company that I worked for > that folded. Rats! Was that the think that consisted of a long base plate with a monitor fixed to one end and the logic box fixed to the other? I have one that I cut in hald (and finsihed off the edges, etc) to make a it a lot more convenient to accomodate. The original design was nothing short of ridiculous! IIRC there are 3 main logic boards (CPU, memory, video), with 2 multibus slots. I never had the external disk unit for it, alas. I think mine has a couple of comms cards in the multibus slots. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 17:39:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:39:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <17024.48938.325000.731833@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at May 10, 5 10:03:22 am Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones > Tony> do. > > Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end Most european TVs have been fitted with something called a SCART socket for over 20 years now. This is a horrible 21 pin connector (Well, 20 pins and an overall screen) which carries 2 channels of audio in and out, compositie video in and out (also used for the sync signal for the RGB signals), RGB in (to the TV), blanking, etc. More recently, S-video (separate luminance and chromanance) has been put on the SCART connector too, using 2 of the RGB pins IIRC. But I've yet to see a TV which doesn't also allow them to be used for the original RGB functions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 18:13:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:13:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Musings on drive form factors In-Reply-To: <000601c5558c$a1130d90$213cd7d1@randylaptop> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 10, 5 01:18:07 pm Message-ID: > > 3.5" drives - ???? No idea > > 3.5" drives - 4"W x 1"H That's a half-height 3.5" drive -- the original ones were (not suprisingly) about twice as high. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 18:18:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 00:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Adrian Graham" at May 10, 5 10:46:00 pm Message-ID: > This begs questions that I can't try since I don't have the appropriate > cables here yet, but has anyone used a GIGI on the likes of the VRT19 (19" > RGB sync-on-green with 75 ohm switches like the GD33), VR262 (composite > mono) and indeed the retro collector's friend the Philips CM8833 composite > colour? Not having got a GIGI (hint :-)), I've not tried anything, but I would be suprised if it worked with either of the first two -- I would guess the GIGI uses US TV scan frequencies. The good old CM8833 should work with a bit of fiddling, though. -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 10 18:48:06 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050510234806.79063.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> eBay had a *major* outage last night for several hours, beginning around 7:30PM. Several of my snipes failed with strange error reports. I also noticed that these auctions had been extended for another day after eBay had come back up. For several hours, eBay was artially functional, but some categories were missing, and "My Ebay" was reporting that much information was unavailable. A status notice on eBay claimed there had been a power failure at an eBay datacenter. --Bill From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue May 10 19:23:07 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 01:23:07 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: In message <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439 at dewey.classiccmp.org> "Adrian Graham" wrote: > (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are tools available to let me Tumble. . Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI SLEEP.COM *** Process interrupted. Kill intruder (Y/N)? From CCTalk at catcorner.org Tue May 10 19:32:24 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:32:24 -0400 Subject: Hitachi/Todd Engineering 4CD tower for free Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D86@mail.catcorner.org> Last chance. If anyone wants this, shipping would be from New Jersey USA (or you pick up). It is a case with 4 Hitachi interface (proprietary, not IDE), 8-bit (PEECEE) controller card, cable and some of the driver software (I think it is a complete set). As is. You pay shipping if you want it. Next step (if no one wants it) is to gut it and install the 8" tandon floppy drive in it that I just got working with my catweasel and linux. Kelly From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue May 10 19:45:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 17:45:32 -0700 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC References: Message-ID: <428155AC.8E4A0FF7@msm.umr.edu> Convergent also had a box that ran MSDOS that was not a PC that was the M-1000 or such at Microdata. Had no resemblence internally to the PC, which killed it. At the time Convergent had been making a unix box, which I think was cheap and 68000 based (anyone have one). They got into the commodity business for PC x86 based stuff with a box that was nice and modular, but not pc compatable because "big" companies didn't want to be meer copiers of the IBM PC (remember victors?). That box was dressed up and a licenced copy of revelation was munged to be compatable with reality rather than pick. For Jay's benefit, I think the changes were read back to revelation and are still in AREV. Jim Tony Duell wrote: > > Convergent Technologies made a 8086 based machine that > > was not PeeCee. It had some expansion slots that were > > Multi-Bus but the processor board was not Multi-Bus. > > I wish I had save one from a company that I worked for > > that folded. Rats! I could be mistaken, but I don't think the CT box I'm thinking of above had Multibus, but was proprietary. It consisted of a couple of 8 x 8 x 8 boxes with cpu and disk drives, a monitor, and then you added 8 x 8 x 4 modules to expand it. all packaged in a plastic box like affair. jim From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue May 10 20:00:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:00:06 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050510200006.2171dcbd.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 10 May 2005 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > > I have an Altos 586, an 8086 machine that is completely NOT a > > pee-cee. > > Hm, that might be an interesting question. What machines are there > built around x86 CPUs but which are definitely not peecees? > > I suspect there are more of them with the earlier CPUs (8086) than > with the later ('386, '486, Pentium, etc). The latest one that comes > to my mind immediately is Sun's 386i (the "Road Runner"). I would love to have a Sun 386i. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 10 20:31:49 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:31:49 EDT Subject: Non PC x86s Message-ID: <154.50df6a2f.2fb2ba85@aol.com> In the "not-quite" category there is always the TI Professional Around 1990 there were, AFAIK, several "superservers" that were supposed to de-VAX the buisiness world, running XENIX/UNIX on multiple 3/486s Mitac? made some, and NetFrame. Same period as the CPQ SystemPro. I think they were serial-terminal console. Remember reading about it in PC magazine back-issues. I suppose we should *like* PCs-a bit- so much of the underlying contortions are ca-1985 hacks, so it's not like we're running POWER, Alpha or PA-WideWord based machines with modified Open Firmware (add touches of SRM and SGI ARCS), extensible windowing system . . . -Scott Quinn From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 10 21:12:50 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: modern and Classic RS232 debuggers References: <200505100659.j4A6x7dg080548@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00ae01c5556a$fdf1be20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00f901c555ce$eecccbb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote.... > Anybody on list have a PC program to turn a 2-serial ported PC into an > RS232 monitor? I have a licensed copy of "Breakout II", quite nice actually. You're welcome to get a copy from me to replace your lost copy J From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 10 21:20:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:20:56 -0500 Subject: ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC In-Reply-To: <20050510235845.66f34792.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <427EA8D7.2080909@oldskool.org> <20050509191515.4309490e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200505101643.MAA09112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050510235845.66f34792.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <42816C08.1080409@mdrconsult.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > - SGI Visual Workstation 320 and 540, dual / quad Intel P II / P III, > doomed to run WinNT but finaly there came some Linux support. Not so's you'd notice. The 320 runs NT or Win2K like a scalded ape, and runs Linux very well, but there's no support at all for the SGI graphics. Under Linux, it's Just Another PC. Which really sucks, because I have a nice 320 with flat panel adapter and 1600SW, but I can't abide looking at Explorer. :( Doc From tomj at wps.com Wed May 11 00:10:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050510215809.P806@localhost> On Sun, 8 May 2005, Allison wrote: >> You're confusing the lack of a hardware stack with the lack of local >> variables. They are not at all related. > > Correct. But a stack makes some forms of programming easier. Eh. What's easy got to do with it? :-) >> For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was invented, >> and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. (Then again, >> that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an intermediate form that >> looks very much like a subset of the Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) > > Using an IL was a way of making the complier easier I'd guess. > Compiler deign has become more sophisticated since. I dunno about that. I just read (and worked out on paper) Randell's 1964 ALGOL IMPLEMENTATION book. Algol had(has) stuff no (or few) language has today, like runtime evaluation of stacked dynamic arguments. As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed from the far-flung future. A lot of the "compilers" from that era we'd today call p-code interpreters (terminology changes) but man, Algol60 is neat stuff. (Not the bloated monster Algol68 (I think it was) became. The Whetsone Algol compiler ran, in one pass, as fast as the source-input reader hardware, in 7000 words of memory! Though slow, it's a full-featured language, unlike C which is basically a portable assembler (I loved writing in C). Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for nearly all modern languages. C's block and scope structure came directly from Algol. Python's objects (the best done of any language I've used, I hate to admit, since I find the python culture utterly hideous) are directly analogous to the Whetstone's scoping -- hell you could put OO structure into the Whetstone compiler without ruining it! From als at thangorodrim.de Wed May 11 00:55:15 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (als at thangorodrim.de) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:55:15 +0200 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <1115763152.14621.77.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1115763152.14621.77.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050511055515.GB22037@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, May 10, 2005 at 10:12:32PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 22:46 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > Having repaired my GIGI power supply and found my local copy of the user and > > techical manuals (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are tools available to let me > > convert these to PDFs?) > > I seem to remember doing it with Imagemagick's convert utility before - > from a shell or DOS prompt it's probably as simple as: > > convert '*.tif' output.pdf > > (with scaling / rotation etc. hints as necessary) > > I'm not sure if it'll "explode" multi-image TIFFs and append in sequence > to the output file or not without any help. > > Note that it's *not* quick by any means and eats memory; Imagemagick > buffers everything as 32bit internally (the one thing I hate about it!) > so even if you have mono images as input it's still going to treat the > images as 32bit before appending to the output pdf file. Yes, it is a _serious_ memory hog and quite slow too. > For that reason some of the alternatives might be better for mono images > (ISTR 'tumble' does the same job, although I've never tried it) Yes, tumble does a great job converting a series of monochrome TIFFs into a single PDF. Any stuff I'm archiving is first scanned at 600 dpi and saved as G4 compressed TIFF. The I create both PDF and DJVU files from the TIFF images. Finally, the TIFF images (archived as a tar archive for convenience - I prefer to keep the original scan data, just in case) and the PDF + DJVU files are dropped into the archive FS. > > Funnily enough the first thing I do when I download a bunch of scans in > PDF format is convert them to multiple TIFF images, as they're easier to > handle in whatever app is appropriate for what I'm trying to do versus > some sucky PDF viewer ;-) Just for reading a scanned article I find the PDF version easier to handle. But still keep the original TIFF files just in case. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 01:19:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:19:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Adrian Graham" at May 10, 5 10:46:00 pm Message-ID: <1056.82.152.112.73.1115792384.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> RGB sync-on-green with 75 ohm switches like the GD33), VR262 (composite >> mono) and indeed the retro collector's friend the Philips CM8833 >> composite >> colour? > > Not having got a GIGI (hint :-)), I've not tried anything, but I would be > suprised if it worked with either of the first two -- I would guess the > GIGI uses US TV scan frequencies. If I get offered another one I'll let you know :) It seems that SW1 on the DIP pack on the back of the machine swaps between 50/60hz for the output so that's ok.....somewhere (ha) I've got a BNC-RCA converter so I'll give that a go with the CM8833. cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 01:21:26 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:21:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1064.82.152.112.73.1115792486.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are tools available to let me > > Tumble. . Excellent.....I'll do that tonight! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed May 11 02:42:04 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:42:04 +0200 Subject: INS8073 interface? Message-ID: <4281B74C.3020407@ais.fraunhofer.de> Hi all, I recently found several INS8073 (aka SC/MP III, with Tiny Basic in ROM) which I want to build a complete system for. I have the datasheet for the 8070 which is the ROMless version. This gives of course hints how to add RAM. The question is how to talk to the BASIC interpreter. From the 8060 (the SC/MP II) with NIBL BASIC I know that the CPU itself uses two pins to implement a 1200Bd serial line which just needs some additional RS232 drivers to work; serial I/O is done by software in the NIBL ROM. I assume this works the same for the 8073. Unfortunately, the SC/MP III does not have these specific pins. So: how does the interface look like for the 8073? Does anyone have a specific application note for this processor? Regards & THX in advance Holger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 11 02:57:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 03:57:17 -0400 Subject: INS8073 interface? In-Reply-To: <4281B74C.3020407@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4281B74C.3020407@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 5/11/05, Holger Veit wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently found several INS8073... which I want to build a complete system for. > ...So: how does the interface look like > for the 8073? Does anyone have a specific application note for this > processor? I have a quantity of INS8073 docs, including a National App Note that describes a reference system with a couple of 2114 SRAMs, an op amp as a level shifter (can use MAX232, or 1488/1489 if you have +/-12V handy). It uses three? resistors to implement the INS8073 baud rate jumpers (110, 1200, 4800) - they pull certain data lines one way or the other when reading a non-existent memory address around $FC00 or so. The internal ROM code interprets the byte read to select a baud rate. It's a trivial chip to make a minimal system from - RAM, TTL-to-EIA conversion, and baud-rate resistors. An expanded system isn't much harder; I have an MC-1N board that I reverse engineered before tracking down the maker (who is still around in the embedded market). His design uses a 32x8 PROM as an address selector. It specifically selects no devices at that magic $FC00 (I think) block so that the resistors can be properly sensed (i.e., no valid device is also trying to drive the bus). The MC-1N has a 24-pin RAM socket (6116, nominally), a 24-pin ROM socket (2732 EPROM), some National clock/calendar chip, and an 8255 PPI chip for I/O. The MC-1N manual described how to set/read the clock and how to fiddle the 8255 lines. I'm part of the way through a hand-wired knock-off of the MC-1N, but I haven't had the time to finish. I'm thinking I'm going to want to whip up a 16V8 GAL to replace the PROM since I have wads of GALs and no tiny PROMs. To more specifically answer your console I/O question, there are, ISTR, three input flag lines and two output flag lines. One each of them is taken over by the code in the internal ROM and used for communicating with the BASIC interpreter. I _think_ one of the manuals mentions that as long as you never PRINT or INPUT, you can steal those lines back for user-defined I/O, but it is not recommended. Write me off-line and let me know how I can throw several hundred Kbytes at you. -ethan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed May 11 03:04:35 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:04:35 +0100 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 May 2005 21:57:33 BST." <4281203D.8000906@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200505110804.JAA20293@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Gordon JC Pearce said: > Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>"Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > > > > > Tony> Don't US TVs have RGB inputs? Almost all UK/European ones > > Tony> do. > > > > Interesting, that must be something new. Not around here; high end > > Most UK televisions outside the really, *really* budget level have RGB > inputs, and have had for about 15 years... The tv in my den here (UK) is a *real* budget 14-inch one, it has SCART and composite video in. The black and white 5-inch portable I bought last year (to run my ZX-81) cost about 25 pounds ($45) - that has composite video in. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From veeke200 at tech.nhl.nl Wed May 11 05:57:13 2005 From: veeke200 at tech.nhl.nl (veeke200 at tech.nhl.nl) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP veeke200@tech.nhl.nl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18502.212.238.157.69.1115809033.squirrel@webmail.nhl.nl> -- SMTP-server Noordelijke Hogeschool Leeuwarden. From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 11 06:14:45 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:14:45 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte magazine discussing Moore's Law is still good? In talking with friends here I found out that I know many of the editors and journalists who worked for the early computer magazines, including Byte. I'm told I can find about any edition I desire from this crowd if I ask. I'm not going to try and rip off friends, but they were interested when I mentioned it. I also found out I know the staff of Wayne Green's magazine empire (mostly Ham Radio stuff). From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 11 07:03:07 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:03:07 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <005c01c55621$66327720$16406b43@66067007> The money was claimed weeks ago. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fogg" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:14 AM Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine > Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte magazine > discussing Moore's Law is still good? In talking with friends here I > found out that I know many of the editors and journalists who worked for > the early computer magazines, including Byte. I'm told I can find about > any edition I desire from this crowd if I ask. I'm not going to try and > rip off friends, but they were interested when I mentioned it. > > I also found out I know the staff of Wayne Green's magazine empire > (mostly Ham Radio stuff). > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 11 07:59:43 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:59:43 +0100 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <575131af05051105592b3e344@mail.gmail.com> On 5/11/05, James Fogg wrote: > Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte magazine > discussing Moore's Law is still good? Nope, you're too late. Despite several copies of the issue being stolen from libraries, they bought it from an English collector who stores vast numbers of old magazines under his floorboards. Apparently, after years of giving him grief, his wife has somewhat relented when one of them make him rather more than ?5,000. :?) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4472549.stm -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 11 07:49:09 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:49:09 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050510215809.P806@localhost> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> At 12:10 AM 5/11/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how >clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of >the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed >from the far-flung future. [...] >Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for >nearly all modern languages. Links for the intrigued... the report: http://www.masswerk.at/algol60/report.htm and an implementation for MS-DOS and CP/M, with source examples: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/algol60.html Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression calculates the label? Eeek. Certainly it was a step forward, but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 08:13:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:13:44 -0400 Subject: GIGI questions References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1115763152.14621.77.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17026.1288.171000.89289@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 22:46 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> Having repaired my GIGI power supply and found my local copy of >> the user and techical manuals (big TIFs, I'm assuming there are >> tools available to let me convert these to PDFs?) Jules> I seem to remember doing it with Imagemagick's convert utility Jules> before - from a shell or DOS prompt it's probably as simple Jules> as: Jules> convert '*.tif' output.pdf Jules> (with scaling / rotation etc. hints as necessary) Jules> I'm not sure if it'll "explode" multi-image TIFFs and append Jules> in sequence to the output file or not without any help. If you have access to a copy of "full" Acrobat (as opposed to the free reader), it will do that too, and it does know how to handle multipage TIFF files. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 08:22:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:22:17 -0400 Subject: GIGI questions References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17026.1801.671000.965178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> This begs questions that I can't try since I don't have the >> appropriate cables here yet, but has anyone used a GIGI on the >> likes of the VRT19 (19" RGB sync-on-green with 75 ohm switches >> like the GD33), VR262 (composite mono) and indeed the retro >> collector's friend the Philips CM8833 composite colour? Tony> Not having got a GIGI (hint :-)), I've not tried anything, but Tony> I would be suprised if it worked with either of the first two Tony> -- I would guess the GIGI uses US TV scan frequencies. Correct. It was designed for the DEC VR241, the same color monitor that the Pro series uses. Those have RGB inputs, sync on green, US TV scan parameters (timing and line count). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 08:34:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:34:47 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> Message-ID: <17026.2551.438000.412659@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: >>> For that matter, Algol had local variables long before C was >>> invented, and as you pointed out, there's an Algol for the PDP-8. >>> (Then again, that's not a true compiler -- it compiles to an >>> intermediate form that looks very much like a subset of the >>> Burroughs 5500 instruction set.) >> Using an IL was a way of making the complier easier I'd guess. >> Compiler deign has become more sophisticated since. Tom> I dunno about that. I just read (and worked out on paper) Tom> Randell's 1964 ALGOL IMPLEMENTATION book. Algol had(has) stuff Tom> no (or few) language has today, like runtime evaluation of Tom> stacked dynamic arguments. You mean "call by name". Indeed. That's one of several Algol 60 features that were subsequently recognized as mistakes, and never repeated. (Label assignment is another; I forgot the correct term.) Tom> As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply Tom> how clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the Tom> state of the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like Tom> stuff robbed from the far-flung future. A lot of the "compilers" Tom> from that era we'd today call p-code interpreters (terminology Tom> changes) but man, Algol60 is neat stuff. (Not the bloated Tom> monster Algol68 (I think it was) became. Then again, Algol 68 is the source of many C++ features -- iostreams for example. Let's see, Algol 60 brought us: - Formal grammars (BNF) - Block structure - Local variables - Scope of names - Declarations - Type safety and indirectly - structured programming - parser generators Tom> The Whetsone Algol compiler ran, in one pass, as fast as the Tom> source-input reader hardware, in 7000 words of memory! Though Tom> slow, it's a full-featured language, unlike C which is basically Tom> a portable assembler (I loved writing in C). I don't know how big the first Algol 60 compiler (at MC Amsterdam) was -- probably similar, quite possibly smaller. Tom> Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for Tom> nearly all modern languages. C's block and scope structure came Tom> directly from Algol. Lobotomized, of course -- C left out a bunch of important parts from the Algol block structure. Tom> Python's objects (the best done of any Tom> language I've used, I hate to admit, since I find the python Tom> culture utterly hideous) are directly analogous to the Tom> Whetstone's scoping -- hell you could put OO structure into the Tom> Whetstone compiler without ruining it! Hm. Algol 60 certainly has no OO nature. Algol 68 does, the beginnings of it. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 11 08:38:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:38:05 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IGB0003JV79JF97@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: John Foust > Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:49:09 -0500 > To: > >At 12:10 AM 5/11/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >>As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how >>clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of >>the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed >>from the far-flung future. [...] >>Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for >>nearly all modern languages. > >Links for the intrigued... the report: > >http://www.masswerk.at/algol60/report.htm > >and an implementation for MS-DOS and CP/M, with source examples: > >http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/algol60.html > >Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes >me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet >been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression >calculates the label? Eeek. Certainly it was a step forward, >but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain >that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them >of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. > >- John Humm, Computed goto.. Sorta like Cs pointer to function. GOTOs are just another things that can be handy if not abused. There nothing worse than QB45/dos using nicely structured data and then littering it with gotos. I've found most languages that can do something useful contain cruft. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 11 08:42:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:42:36 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IGB00IWJVETMGR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:08 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how >clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of >the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed >from the far-flung future. A lot of the "compilers" from that era >we'd today call p-code interpreters (terminology changes) but man, >Algol60 is neat stuff. (Not the bloated monster Algol68 (I think >it was) became. Having programmed in algol on the PDP-8 back when it was a real eye opener for a new basic programmer. The PDP-8 Timeshare didn't know strings. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 08:54:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:54:13 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IGB00IWJVETMGR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17026.3717.834000.673223@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> Having programmed in algol on the PDP-8 back when it was a Allison> real eye opener for a new basic programmer. The PDP-8 Allison> Timeshare didn't know strings. Standard Algol 60 doesn't either -- it has string constants but not string variables. Those are a Burroughs extension, and PDP-8 Algol is a Burroughs Extended Algol subset. paul From korpela at gmail.com Tue May 10 17:50:02 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:50:02 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > I don't expect to ever see a true C compiler for the PDP-8. The lack of > stacks, etc. are easily gotten around, but the 12 bit word size isn't. On a > PDP-8, a short (or a pointer, for that matter) would have to be 2 words (and > a long would be 3). The C data types just don't fit efficiently into 12 bit > words. So writing a C compiler would be difficult, and the resulting code > would be horrible (at least by PDP-8 standards) :-). The C data types only have minimum sizes. Actual sizes are up to the implementation. The resulting C data types for a PDP-8 would be 12-bit char, 24 bit short and int, 36 bit long. As long as limits.h contains the correct values and the sizeof() operator correctly returns 1, 2 and 3 for the above. I'd go with 12 bits pointers for a start, you could also make a "large model" compiler to use more than 4k. I'd put declared autos in the current page and expand the address to 12 bits if it get stored in a pointer or the routine gets too large. Passed parameters could be zero page, and it would be up to the caller to save ones that they need later. (Yes, there really doesn't need to be a stack. You can do variable size local allocations on the heap.) All in all, a cross compiler built from LCC should be a doable task (although there will be some 32-bit assumption issues). It's certainly easier than building a mixed-model 8086 compiler (as there is less garbage to deal with). Don't ask me to write the floating point library, though... The only real problem is that too much C code floating around assumes that CHAR_BIT==8 and that sizeof(void *), sizeof(int) and sizeof(long) are equal to each other. It would still compile and run, since you can convert a 12 bit pointer to a 24 bit int and back with no loss. It wouldn't be efficient, though. Eric From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed May 11 09:34:49 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:34:49 +0100 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.2551.438000.412659@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <000201c55636$95d4c860$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Then again, Algol 68 is the source of many C++ features -- iostreams > for example. > > Let's see, Algol 60 brought us: > - Formal grammars (BNF) > - Block structure > - Local variables um, Fortran's variables were local - but only local or global (Common) - nothing in between > - Scope of names > - Declarations make that Mandatory declarations ... and even there the predecessors of COBOL were earlier > - Type safety > > and indirectly > - structured programming everybody has their own definition of structured programming ... > - parser generators > > Tom> The Whetsone Algol compiler ran, in one pass, as fast as the > Tom> source-input reader hardware, in 7000 words of memory! Though > Tom> slow, it's a full-featured language, unlike C which is basically > Tom> a portable assembler (I loved writing in C). Tho' those 7000 words were 48-bit (on the KDF9). The ICT/ICL1900 series had an Algol (subset) that ran on a 4K (24-bit word) computer and a full compiler for an 8K machine ... I can't remember, but I think the #XALE (disk compiler) and #XALM (corresponding tape-based compiler) were for 16K. I think, also, that IBM's Algol compiler was an "E" code so intended for a 32KB '360 ... not that the PL/I E compiler would run on that size machine :-( > > I don't know how big the first Algol 60 compiler (at MC Amsterdam) was > -- probably similar, quite possibly smaller. > > Tom> Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for > Tom> nearly all modern languages. C's block and scope structure came > Tom> directly from Algol. > > Lobotomized, of course -- C left out a bunch of important parts from > the Algol block structure. Some because C is really from the Fortran tradition (Dirty tricks are sometimes useful and too strong typing and structure prevent such); some because they had been discovered to be more problematic than helpful. Algol 60 -> CPL -> BCPL -> B -> C (importing much from PL/I* ... which was a union of concepts from Algol 60, Fortran IV, and COBOL using Algol structure) * this linkage is not normally recognised in histories of programming languages, but when it is considered that the originators of C had been involved in the Multics project ... an OS written in PL/I; the only previous production OS that had been written in a HLL was that of the Burroughs machines ... using a version of Algol (to complete the circularity of these references). > Hm. Algol 60 certainly has no OO nature. Algol 68 does, the > beginnings of it. Simula 67 was a derivative of Algol 60 that is normally recognised as the foundation of OO. Andy -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/05 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 11 09:48:53 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:48:53 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <000201c55636$95d4c860$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <000201c55636$95d4c860$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <42821B55.3000706@jetnet.ab.ca> Andy Holt wrote: >> Tom> The Whetsone Algol compiler ran, in one pass, as fast as the >> Tom> source-input reader hardware, in 7000 words of memory! Though >> Tom> slow, it's a full-featured language, unlike C which is basically >> Tom> a portable assembler (I loved writing in C). >> >> But remember too you really had only two sized variables, ints and floating point. I think the big problem with algol you never were ment to compile it, just write programns in it. 8K words are ample for a language that does not have character data. 32KB seems to be the smallest size a character orientated language like C or Pascal. Also most machines had built in floating point so the run time size was small >>I don't know how big the first Algol 60 compiler (at MC Amsterdam) was >>-- probably similar, quite possibly smaller. >> >> Tom> Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for >> Tom> nearly all modern languages. C's block and scope structure came >> Tom> directly from Algol. >> >>Lobotomized, of course -- C left out a bunch of important parts from >>the Algol block structure. >> >> >Some because C is really from the Fortran tradition (Dirty tricks are >sometimes useful and too strong typing and structure prevent such); some >because they had been discovered to be more problematic than helpful. >Algol 60 -> CPL -> BCPL -> B -> C (importing much from PL/I* ... which > was a union of concepts from Algol 60, Fortran IV, and COBOL using > Algol structure) >* this linkage is not normally recognised in histories of programming >languages, but when it is considered that the originators of C had been >involved in the Multics project ... an OS written in PL/I; the only >previous production OS that had been written in a HLL was that of the >Burroughs machines ... using a version of Algol (to complete the >circularity of these references). > > > The PDP-7 with 8K of memory had a major impact on what B had for features. Only with >8K of memory on the PDP-11 could you get a real compiler. >>Hm. Algol 60 certainly has no OO nature. Algol 68 does, the >>beginnings of it. >> >> > >Simula 67 was a derivative of Algol 60 that is normally recognised as the >foundation of OO. > >Andy >-- >Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 04/05/05 > >. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 11 10:05:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:05:01 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <0IGB002L3Z8DEF87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 > From: Eric J Korpela > Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:50:02 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >The C data types only have minimum sizes. Actual sizes are up to the >implementation. >The resulting C data types for a PDP-8 would be 12-bit char, 24 bit >short and int, 36 bit long. As long as limits.h contains the correct >values and the sizeof() operator correctly returns 1, 2 and 3 for the What about byte as in 6bits. Thats a valid item for PDP-8 as one intruction BSW swaps accumulator halfs. Also much of the character IO was 6bit. >Don't ask me to write the floating point library, though... Don't have to as there was a good asm one supplied with the machine. ;) Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 10:09:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:09:03 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <000201c55636$95d4c860$4d4d2c0a@atx> <42821B55.3000706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17026.8207.454187.683656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> But remember too you really had only two sized variables, woodelf> ints and floating point. I think the big problem with algol woodelf> you never were ment to compile it, just write programns in woodelf> it. Nonsense. It certainly wasn't designed as a paper language, and it wasn't used as a paper language. The first compiler (MC Amsterdam, by Dijkstra) was a real compiler, and at the T.U. Eindhove the "THE" operating system used Algol exclusively, so all the programming for many years at that major university was done in Algol 60. paul From vrs at msn.com Wed May 11 10:10:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:10:23 -0700 Subject: C on the PDP-8 (was Re: Infocom on PDP-11) References: <0IG6004P7XQ7B9J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > > I don't expect to ever see a true C compiler for the PDP-8. The lack of > > stacks, etc. are easily gotten around, but the 12 bit word size isn't. On a > > PDP-8, a short (or a pointer, for that matter) would have to be 2 words (and > > a long would be 3). The C data types just don't fit efficiently into 12 bit > > words. So writing a C compiler would be difficult, and the resulting code > > would be horrible (at least by PDP-8 standards) :-). > > The C data types only have minimum sizes. Actual sizes are up to the > implementation. Sure. > The resulting C data types for a PDP-8 would be 12-bit char, 24 bit > short and int, 36 bit long. As long as limits.h contains the correct > values and the sizeof() operator correctly returns 1, 2 and 3 for the > above. I'd go with 12 bits pointers for a start, you could also make > a "large model" compiler to use more than 4k. Agreed. But these sizes would lead to bloated PDP-8 code for simple operations, which in turn would mean you could get almost nothing useful done in 4Kw. Average data size around 2 words makes this worse, too. Witness the complexity of the largest Focal 69 programs that can be fit in 4K. There's only so much you can do in the space available. Here the reason for the space constraints would be different (the co-resident code is run-time libraries instead of the interpreter), but I suspect the result would be similar. > I'd put declared autos > in the current page and expand the address to 12 bits if it get stored > in a pointer or the routine gets too large. Passed parameters could be > zero page, and it would be up to the caller to save ones that they > need later. (Yes, there really doesn't need to be a stack. You can > do variable size local allocations on the heap.) All in all, a cross > compiler built from LCC should be a doable task (although there will > be some 32-bit assumption issues). It's certainly easier than > building a mixed-model 8086 compiler (as there is less garbage to deal > with). I think the challenges would be to determine when recursion is actually used, etc. Otherwise, the entry and exit from subroutines will be expensive (especially if you are calling a heap allocator). I actually think the task is only manageable if you virtualize a processor that is more amenable to C. Which is also time-inefficient, but could potentially be at least a little more space-efficient. (Maybe a 24-bit two operand machine? Or something like a Nova, but 24 bit?) > Don't ask me to write the floating point library, though... That shouldn't be that bad; there are plenty of floating point routines around for the PDP-8. > The only real problem is that too much C code floating around assumes > that CHAR_BIT==8 and that sizeof(void *), sizeof(int) and sizeof(long) > are equal to each other. It would still compile and run, since you > can convert a 12 bit pointer to a 24 bit int and back with no loss. > It wouldn't be efficient, though. I think the broken code in the world is either too large for the PDP-8, or small enough to fix :-). Vince From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 11 10:12:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes > me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet > been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression > calculates the label? Eeek. Certainly it was a step forward, > but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain > that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them > of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox by elitist academics. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 10:31:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:31:58 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> Message-ID: <17026.9582.10800.454140@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the Vintage> programmmer's toolbox by elitist academics. Last I looked it was still alive and well; I just used it in a C++ program a few weeks ago. That was the first time in many years -- on this topic I agree with Dijkstra. But I don't believe he ever advocated not using it ever, only that it should be avoided when there's a better answer, which is in about 99% of the cases, but not 100%. paul From vrs at msn.com Wed May 11 10:33:18 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:33:18 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IGB002L3Z8DEF87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > >The C data types only have minimum sizes. Actual sizes are up to the > >implementation. > >The resulting C data types for a PDP-8 would be 12-bit char, 24 bit > >short and int, 36 bit long. As long as limits.h contains the correct > >values and the sizeof() operator correctly returns 1, 2 and 3 for the > > What about byte as in 6bits. Thats a valid item for PDP-8 as one > intruction BSW swaps accumulator halfs. Also much of the character > IO was 6bit. Afraid those would have to be user data types, as the C standards require 8 or more bits for "char". I think they would be useful (even necessary) additions to a "C-like" system programming language for the PDP-8, though. Vince From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed May 11 10:35:16 2005 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:35:16 -0500 Subject: MIPS, 3B2, PPC available Central Illinois Message-ID: <67bf7ccf.fad6d428.8378400@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> A fellow had a garage sale recently with a lot of classic hardware, and we got to talking about classic computer resources online, and I offered to post whatever he might have left-over to the list in case anyone is interested. He's got: >A MIPS Magnum 4000PC.50 >(2) AT&T 3B2/310 with many (!) boxes of documentation >Motorola PPC 801 >A Cray Amber terminal >(2) SCSI1 External DAT drives. >misc AT era PC cases/motherboards >borken laser printer >Epson LQ1100 dot matrix printer I don't know any further details about this stuff, and he's mostly looking to just get rid of it. If you have serious inquiries and really want one or more items, I can pass along questions. He'd rather see this stuff go to a nice home rather than to the recycler, but he's under some pressure to get rid of it this week. If you'd like something off the list, here's my preference list: 1. Pick up in Champaign/Urbana, Illinois. If you want something and can pick it up over the Summer, I can store it at my storage place until you can stop by, before August please. Make an offer, no reasonable offer refused. He's looking for garage sale money here, nothing over $20. I'm justmiddle-manning for the sake of the community and preservation. 2. Meet me at the Dayton Hamvention. I'll drag items to the Hamvention and you take them from me Thursday night or Friday. Hey, if you want something off his list, you get a guaranteed good bargain at the Hamvention without even scrounging! 3. We could ship if you're really interested in an time. We'll fix pricing at 125% of the packing/shipping costs, which should work out about the same as shipping + what he was asking at the garage sale. Like I said, I'll be passing all the money back to him; I'm just acting as a go-between to save some nifty machines that I just don't have time to work on. Thanks, Dan From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed May 11 10:49:53 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:49:53 -0500 Subject: MIPS, 3B2, PPC available Central Illinois In-Reply-To: <67bf7ccf.fad6d428.8378400@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> References: <67bf7ccf.fad6d428.8378400@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I'd be very very interested in the 3b2 stuff, especially if it's the sort with it's software still inside. -dhbarr. On 5/11/05, Dan Linder wrote: > > > A fellow had a garage sale recently with a lot of classic hardware, > and we got to talking about classic computer resources online, and I > offered to post whatever he might have left-over to the list in > case anyone is interested. > > He's got: > > >A MIPS Magnum 4000PC.50 > >(2) AT&T 3B2/310 with many (!) boxes of documentation > >Motorola PPC 801 > >A Cray Amber terminal > >(2) SCSI1 External DAT drives. > >misc AT era PC cases/motherboards > >borken laser printer > >Epson LQ1100 dot matrix printer > > I don't know any further details about this stuff, and he's mostly > looking to just get rid of it. If you have serious inquiries and > really want one or more items, I can pass along questions. > > He'd rather see this stuff go to a nice home rather than to the > recycler, but he's under some pressure to get rid of it this week. > > If you'd like something off the list, here's my preference list: > > 1. Pick up in Champaign/Urbana, Illinois. If you want something and > can pick it up over the Summer, I can store it at my storage place > until you can stop by, before August please. Make an offer, no > reasonable offer refused. He's looking for garage sale money here, > nothing over $20. I'm justmiddle-manning for the sake of the > community and preservation. > > 2. Meet me at the Dayton Hamvention. I'll drag items to the > Hamvention and you take them from me Thursday night or Friday. > Hey, if you want something off his list, you get a guaranteed > good bargain at the Hamvention without even scrounging! > > 3. We could ship if you're really interested in an time. We'll > fix pricing at 125% of the packing/shipping costs, which should > work out about the same as shipping + what he was asking at the > garage sale. > > Like I said, I'll be passing all the money back to him; I'm just > acting as a go-between to save some nifty machines that I just > don't have time to work on. > > Thanks, > > Dan > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 11 11:08:05 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:08:05 -0400 Subject: was "C on the PDP-8 (was Re: Infocom on PDP-11)", now "FOCAL source" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 May 2005 08:10:23 PDT." <005901c5563b$8e964880$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200505111608.j4BG85i4027708@mwave.heeltoe.com> "vrs" wrote: > >I actually think the task is only manageable if you virtualize a processor >that is more amenable to C. Which is also time-inefficient, but could >potentially be at least a little more space-efficient. (Maybe a 24-bit two >operand machine? Or something like a Nova, but 24 bit?) heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. Does anyone have the source for FOCAL on line? I used something called FOCARL and COLPAC also, derivatives created by some smart guys at Carleton College. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 11 11:12:19 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:12:19 -0400 Subject: ebay encryption? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 May 2005 16:27:00 EDT." <17025.6420.973783.547635@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >This is rather disturbing. How about asking Ebay? Either we're being >pharmed, or Ebay has broken its crypto setup; either way they need to >do something about it. I did ask and I got a form letter back about the outage. I asked again, asking them *read* the question. -brad From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 11 11:57:13 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:57:13 +0200 Subject: Xerox 820 References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> Hello everybody. I've obtained recently one Xerox 820 without the floppies unit box :-) In these circumstances the system is lightly unuseful. Someone has one floppy units box for this system available for free or trade ? There is another question in addition... the floppies connector has 37 pin. I suppose it allows the Xerox to use 5.25 floppies. But in some place I've read about 8" floppy units for the 820. What's about that ? Regards Sergio From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 11 12:01:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:01:38 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511115255.05500e28@mail> At 10:12 AM 5/11/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox >by elitist academics. It's a tool. Why, I discussed this with a "Sam Ismail" back in 1999: - John >Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:00:07 +0000 >To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu, >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: Computers for children > >At 11:37 PM 1/14/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >> >>Remember, C has a goto statement, although I don't think in my nearly 10 >>years of C programming I've ever used it, although on certain rare >>occasions it seemed the easy way out to a sticky coding problem. >> [...] but C really suffers from a lack of >>a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of >>loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can >>never find an appropriate way to implement it. > >I use "goto" in C on a regular and consistent basis for error exceptions: > >USHORT firstFunction( void ) >{ >USHORT lerr; > > if ((lerr=secondFunction()) != TE_NOERROR) { > goto out; > } > >out: > return lerr; >} > >The benefit is that all functions propogate an error code, any >function can fail, and all functions clean up after themselves >after their "out" label. > >- John From vrs at msn.com Wed May 11 12:18:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:18:55 -0700 Subject: was "C on the PDP-8 (was Re: Infocom on PDP-11)", now "FOCAL source" References: <200505111608.j4BG85i4027708@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL > source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. I spent a summer doing the same thing, but without benefit of source code. (I still have my reverse-engineered source code for a variety of versions of PDP-8 Focal.) > Does anyone have the source for FOCAL on line? I used something called > FOCARL and COLPAC also, derivatives created by some smart guys at > Carleton College. I found a copy of what looks like the usual version at: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Focal/Focal1/OS8/ Vince From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 11 12:18:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.9582.10800.454140@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the > Vintage> programmmer's toolbox by elitist academics. > > Last I looked it was still alive and well; I just used it in a C++ > program a few weeks ago. > > That was the first time in many years -- on this topic I agree with > Dijkstra. But I don't believe he ever advocated not using it ever, > only that it should be avoided when there's a better answer, which is > in about 99% of the cases, but not 100%. Right. But the way it's taught generally (at least in my experience and observation) is that you should expend an hour of thinking and 10 lines of code development rather than use a simple GOTO which would suffice quite nicely and be more logical and readable. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 11 12:22:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511115255.05500e28@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 10:12 AM 5/11/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox > >by elitist academics. > > It's a tool. Why, I discussed this with a "Sam Ismail" back in 1999: This just goes to show how brainwashed I've become with regards to the use of GOTO's ;) I'm going to stick a GOTO into some code at an inappropriate place today just to spite the Man! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Tim at rikers.org Wed May 11 12:46:35 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:46:35 -0500 Subject: TI-980B Message-ID: <428244FB.3080303@Rikers.org> In looking through some salvage equipment I came across a TI-980B (1974ish) in unknown condition. I don't have a use for it. Does someone else? It's in Dallas, TX. I don't yet know how much I'd have to pay for it, but I'll need to decide by tomorrow. Please contact me off list if interested. Feel free to reply to the list if you have other useful info on the system. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-20050511 Related Links: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/980/ http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 11 13:21:30 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:21:30 -0400 Subject: was "C on the PDP-8 (was Re: Infocom on PDP-11)", now "FOCAL source" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 May 2005 10:18:55 PDT." <00a501c5564d$832f1aa0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200505111821.j4BILUmf002825@mwave.heeltoe.com> "vrs" wrote: > >I found a copy of what looks like the usual version at: >http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/La >ngs/Focal/Focal1/OS8/ glug. what format is that in? is it a byte-ized version of a 12 bit file which has 3-chars-per-2-words ? any idea how I can turn that back into an ascii byte stream? (at least I'm on topic :-) -brad From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 11 13:24:55 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:24:55 +0200 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C67@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ah yes, good memories! At the Technical High School in Heerlen (very southern part of Holland) our computer class program tasks were written in BEATHE. I can't remember what the B and E stand for, but the "ATHE" stand for Algol(60) Technical High school Eindhoven. The school in Heerlen used at that time (1975 era) IBM 027's (?) to enter the program on punch *card*. We always had a fight for the few desks that had a punch that also *printed* the line of Algol on the top of the punch card. You learned to want to enter your work on such a desk after your deck of cards had once slipped out of your hands and fell on the ground ... You turned in the deck of cards, and one or two days later you got the print out on green bar paper. In the beginning your program hadn't even run because the compiler found a missing ";" Get the correct card, remove it from the deck and put in the corrected one. Submit the deck again, and before you knew a week had passed. Turning in the deck more than 5 times would seldom produce a good score, so I guess I learned at that time to be precise. - Henk, PA8PDP. >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> But remember too you really had only two sized variables, woodelf> ints and floating point. I think the big problem with algol woodelf> you never were ment to compile it, just write programns in woodelf> it. > Nonsense. It certainly wasn't designed as a paper language, and it > wasn't used as a paper language. The first compiler (MC Amsterdam, by > Dijkstra) was a real compiler, and at the T.U. Eindhove the "THE" > operating system used Algol exclusively, so all the programming for > many years at that major university was done in Algol 60. > > paul From vrs at msn.com Wed May 11 13:38:27 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:38:27 -0700 Subject: was "C on the PDP-8 (was Re: Infocom on PDP-11)", now "FOCAL source" References: <200505111821.j4BILUmf002825@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > >I found a copy of what looks like the usual version at: > >http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu /La > >ngs/Focal/Focal1/OS8/ > > glug. what format is that in? is it a byte-ized version of a 12 bit file > which has 3-chars-per-2-words ? > > any idea how I can turn that back into an ascii byte stream? > > (at least I'm on topic :-) Ah. You are probably looking for the version up and over in ../Ascii, if you want to view it on your non-classic machine :-). Vince From tomj at wps.com Wed May 11 13:38:34 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> Message-ID: <20050511112757.G992@localhost> > At 12:10 AM 5/11/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how >> clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of >> the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed >> from the far-flung future. [...] >> Algol had it's share of horrors, but man it is the basis for >> nearly all modern languages. On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > Links for the intrigued... the report: > > http://www.masswerk.at/algol60/report.htm > > and an implementation for MS-DOS and CP/M, with source examples: > > http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/algol60.html > Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes > me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet > been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression > calculates the label? Eeek. Oh yeah, it has !TERRIBLE! features in it! Computed gotos are one of the more amusing, and some of the side effects of it are just plain bizarre. But the scoping, for example, is pretty well accepted, though Algol had some strange features, such as visibility of names in blocks "upward" (I think it is). I'm not claiming algol to be superior in any way (one item though, dynamic evaluation is pretty neat), I'm not a 'in the past, everything was better! TTL > CMOS!' person, specifically I was observing that as a change/improvement in the then-current state-of-the-art, Algol was the most successful failed language ever. (Computing program labels, as a floating number, with automatic conversion to integer before execution, has got to one-up the IBM FORTRAN 3-way branch on the silliness list. At least that fit a hardware feature.) But you have to feel for the poor bastards, trying to work out these issues where you don't even have a character mapping you can rely on. All the quoting/escaping bizarreness, that the unix Algol interpreter a60 supports. Ugh. > Certainly it was a step forward, > but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain > that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them > of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. From jhoger at gmail.com Wed May 11 13:38:36 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:38:36 -0700 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <575131af05051105592b3e344@mail.gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> <575131af05051105592b3e344@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "No Angela, I cannot throw it out!!! One day all of this crap will be more valuable than we can possibly imagine." Yeah, that will work for me... -- John. On 5/11/05, Liam Proven wrote: > Apparently, after years of giving him grief, his wife has somewhat > relented when one of them make him rather more than ?5,000. :?) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 11 13:42:19 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:42:19 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <17026.1801.671000.965178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505111842.j4BIgMln005755@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Tony> Not having got a GIGI (hint :-)), I've not tried > anything, but Tony> I would be suprised if it worked with > either of the first two Tony> -- I would guess the GIGI uses > US TV scan frequencies. > > Correct. It was designed for the DEC VR241, the same color > monitor that the Pro series uses. Those have RGB inputs, > sync on green, US TV scan parameters (timing and line count). That's handy, I've got a VR241 at home up north - it was my Amiga monitor for many years and I was considering bringing it down here anyway......excellent. I've just powered GIGI up for the hell of it and got the reassuring beep plus lightshow so it seems OK despite a bit of chip corrosion..... cheers a From tomj at wps.com Wed May 11 13:43:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.2551.438000.412659@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <17026.2551.438000.412659@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050511113930.B992@localhost> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Hm. Algol 60 certainly has no OO nature. Algol 68 does, the > beginnings of it. I don't mean to imply anyone in 1964 saw this, I'm only saying after looking at the compiler design it seemed 'obvious' to me language extentions to accomodate scope at the top level could fit without ruining it. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 13:51:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:51:47 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C67@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <17026.21571.507874.305205@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> Ah yes, good memories! At the Technical High School in Gooijen> Heerlen (very southern part of Holland) our computer class Gooijen> program tasks were written in BEATHE. I can't remember what Gooijen> the B and E stand for, but the "ATHE" stand for Algol(60) Gooijen> Technical High school Eindhoven. That's Burroughs Extended Algol THE edition. Different language. It's essentially the standard Burroughs Extended Algol (for the B6700), modified to look more like the older Algol of the THE system. (The THE system ran on a Philips EL-X8.) I only used BEATHE briefly; my recollection is that it used quotes to mark ALGOL keywords rather than reserved words, i.e., 'i'f i=1 't'h'e'n ... instead of if i=1 then ... which added no real value but did use up a lot more cards and finger-power... paul From tomj at wps.com Wed May 11 13:57:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.3717.834000.673223@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IGB00IWJVETMGR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <17026.3717.834000.673223@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050511115440.K992@localhost> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Standard Algol 60 doesn't either -- it has string constants but not > string variables. Those are a Burroughs extension, and PDP-8 Algol is > a Burroughs Extended Algol subset. Yeah, strings are pretty new-fangled. Standardized character sets, cheap memory, and human I/O devices are needed. I'd forgotten (somehow) that FORTRAN IV didn't know strings until I wrote a "more" program as an exercise on the Nova. Surprise! FORTRAN V had 'em (as a hack job on integer arrays) so I used that. From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 11 14:35:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.21571.507874.305205@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > I only used BEATHE briefly; my recollection is that it used quotes to > mark ALGOL keywords rather than reserved words, i.e., > 'i'f i=1 't'h'e'n ... > instead of > if i=1 then ... > > which added no real value but did use up a lot more cards and > finger-power... You have GOT to be kidding. Who's the genius that came up with that scheme? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 11 14:39:22 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:39:22 -0700 Subject: TIL-311 displays In-Reply-To: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <17025.6420.973783.547635@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905051112396b551c37@mail.gmail.com> Was someone looking for some TIL-311 displays recently for an Elf project? This seller on eBay has some for around $3.25 each (with shipping) in lots of 10 or 20. Unless you can find them cheaper seems like an ok deal. No connection with this seller other than having bought something from them in the past. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7514949973 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7515200622 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 11 14:40:59 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <200505111940.MAA18176@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Anyway, it wasn't a Byte magazine. It was one of the trade magazines ( forget the name ). Dwight >From: "John Hogerhuis" > >"No Angela, I cannot throw it out!!! One day all of this crap will be >more valuable than we can possibly imagine." > >Yeah, that will work for me... > >-- John. > >On 5/11/05, Liam Proven wrote: >> Apparently, after years of giving him grief, his wife has somewhat >> relented when one of them make him rather more than ?5,000. :?) > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 11 14:49:36 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:49:36 -0400 Subject: 30 6502 book collection on epay... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> Anyone who may be interested in a nice collection, at first I thought the price steep, but when you count that its 30 books, thats not as bad a deal as it sounds, especially if any of those books may be hard to find, not my auction btw: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3522&item=5196231351&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 5/9/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 11 14:52:21 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <200505111952.MAA18200@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> At 10:12 AM 5/11/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox >> >by elitist academics. >> >> It's a tool. Why, I discussed this with a "Sam Ismail" back in 1999: > >This just goes to show how brainwashed I've become with regards to the use >of GOTO's ;) > >I'm going to stick a GOTO into some code at an inappropriate place today >just to spite the Man! > Hi It just doesn't fit nicely with things like memory allocation, scoping and pointers. It still has a place in error and exception handling. I guess one is suppose to handle such things in assembly. This is not a high level function? How can one make a system robust and not consider the need for such things? Dwight From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 11 15:16:57 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:16:57 +0200 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> No, I can not remember those quotes either. Must have been something else, Paul. For what I remember, BEATHE looked a bit like PASCAL; all the statements ended with a semicolon (;). Admitted, memories are vague after 30 years not using BEATHE :~) but I would certainly remember something as idiot as a quote for every letter of a reserved word of the language. - Henk, PA8PDP. On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > I only used BEATHE briefly; my recollection is that it used quotes to > mark ALGOL keywords rather than reserved words, i.e., > 'i'f i=1 't'h'e'n ... > instead of > if i=1 then ... > > which added no real value but did use up a lot more cards and > finger-power... You have GOT to be kidding. Who's the genius that came up with that scheme? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 11 15:21:31 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:21:31 +0200 Subject: 30 6502 book collection on epay... References: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <000d01c55667$05268d40$1502a8c0@ACER> It would be even better if the auction would be worldwide. Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: ; "Discussion at smtp2.suscom.net :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:49 PM Subject: 30 6502 book collection on epay... > Anyone who may be interested in a nice collection, at first I thought > the price steep, but when you count that its 30 books, thats not as bad > a deal as it sounds, especially if any of those books may be hard to > find, not my auction btw: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3522&item=5196231351& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > Curt > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 5/9/2005 > From Tim at rikers.org Wed May 11 15:46:20 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:46:20 -0500 Subject: TI-980B In-Reply-To: <428244FB.3080303@Rikers.org> References: <428244FB.3080303@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42826F1C.3030703@Rikers.org> After prompting by someone on the list, I dropped by again and managed to get the chassis open. It's completely gutted. just the power supply remains. =( It's a shame too cause the chassis is still in nice shape. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 11 15:44:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:44:38 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42826EB6.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > >I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox >by elitist academics. > > Real programers use 'Come from' :D From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 11 15:53:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:53:28 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> No, I can not remember those quotes either. Must have been Gooijen> something else, Paul. For what I remember, BEATHE looked a Gooijen> bit like PASCAL; all the statements ended with a semicolon Gooijen> (;). Admitted, memories are vague after 30 years not using Gooijen> BEATHE :~) but I would certainly remember something as idiot Gooijen> as a quote for every letter of a reserved word of the Gooijen> language. No -- neither in Pascal nor in Algol do statements end in semicolon. Instead, statements are SEPARATED by semicolons. An important difference, which PL/1 and C both got wrong, in different ways. I may have the quoting thing mixed up. It probably was quotes around the keywords, i.e., 'begin' 'int' i; 'if' j=1 'then' ..... The reason for this notation is that traditional Algol does not have any notion of reserved words (the spec has two different typefaces, one for keywords, one for identifiers). The THE system Algol used underlining for keywords (using Flexowriter punch-tape machines where underline was a non-spacing character). So BEATHE was created to preserve that "no reserved words" property. It may have done other things as well, again for the purpose of being maximally compatible with the older language. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 11 15:51:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:51:32 -0600 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <42827054.10007@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen H wrote: >No, I can not remember those quotes either. >Must have been something else, Paul. >For what I remember, BEATHE looked a bit like PASCAL; all the >statements ended with a semicolon (;). >Admitted, memories are vague after 30 years not using BEATHE :~) >but I would certainly remember something as idiot as a quote for >every letter of a reserved word of the language. > > I have not used algol but I looked at the tiny algol for the PDP-8. I think that had quotes around the entire reserved word. Ben alias woodelf From spc at conman.org Wed May 11 16:43:49 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") In-Reply-To: <200505111608.j4BG85i4027708@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at May 11, 2005 12:08:05 PM Message-ID: <20050511214349.BF3C77302C@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Brad Parker once stated: > > heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL > source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. What does PUSHJ actually do? I remember reading about it in Steven Levy's Hackers, but never got what was so special about it. -spc (Saves the register J, right?) From vrs at msn.com Wed May 11 17:06:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:06:23 -0700 Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") References: <20050511214349.BF3C77302C@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: > It was thus said that the Great Brad Parker once stated: > > > > heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL > > source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. > > What does PUSHJ actually do? I remember reading about it in Steven Levy's > Hackers, but never got what was so special about it. PUSHJ does a CALL, using a software implementation of a stack, which allows the target subroutine to be recursive. JMS stores the return address in the entry point, so it won't do (without help) for recursive routines. (Similarly, POPJ is like RET.) Both are quite odd, if you are used to the PDP-8 calling conventions, and unfamiliar with stacks. (Once you have used them for a while, they seem obvious.) Vince From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 11 17:14:30 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:14:30 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050511112757.G992@localhost> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> <20050511112757.G992@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170331.056cfe10@mail> At 01:38 PM 5/11/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >Oh yeah, it has !TERRIBLE! features in it! Computed gotos are one >of the more amusing, and some of the side effects of it are just >plain bizarre. The inverted syntax of "goto 60 if expression" was another that caught my eye; it certainly reproduced in BASIC+ and today still lives in Perl for the same ancestral reasons. >But you have to feel for the poor bastards, trying to work out >these issues where you don't even have a character mapping you can >rely on. All the quoting/escaping bizarreness, that the unix Algol >interpreter a60 supports. Ugh. One of the aforementioned references points out that Algol preceded ASCII and influenced its development. At one point, they wanted 'do' and other keywords to be their own character (!) so you could have 'do' as a variable name? Algol, of course, lives on in Algore, an early supporting component of the Internet. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 11 17:12:19 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:12:19 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200505111952.MAA18200@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505111952.MAA18200@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170838.052a2648@mail> At 02:52 PM 5/11/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > How can one make a system robust and not consider the need >for such things? Among my geezer-rants is the one about how the original Windows tutorial books by Petzold failed to include proper error checking on the results from Windows calls. Gee, it would've made the examples less clear, but it would've saved a lot of trouble and future (and lingering) bugs for all the cut-and-paste programmers out there. - John From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed May 11 16:45:29 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:45:29 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <42826EB6.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42827CF9.123B549F@msm.umr.edu> I especially like the rabbit command which requires the multipunch of 12-3-7-8 along with the rabbit ears (") and tail (.). Okay, so I went and read the Intercal manual again, it was a very nice diversion for this particular afternoon. Also remember to code PLEASE when doing assignments. jim woodelf wrote: > > > > > Real programers use 'Come from' :D From spc at conman.org Wed May 11 17:22:43 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") In-Reply-To: <00dd01c55675$abbed5a0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> from "vrs" at May 11, 2005 03:06:23 PM Message-ID: <20050511222244.11FE773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great vrs once stated: > > > What does PUSHJ actually do? I remember reading about it in Steven Levy's > > Hackers, but never got what was so special about it. > > PUSHJ does a CALL, using a software implementation of a stack, which allows > the target subroutine to be recursive. JMS stores the return address in the > entry point, so it won't do (without help) for recursive routines. > (Similarly, POPJ is like RET.) Oh, PUSH-JUMP. -spc (Okay, that makes sense now ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 11 17:32:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:32:37 -0400 Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") Message-ID: <0IGC00253JY8H2B7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") > From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) > Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:43:49 -0400 (EDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >It was thus said that the Great Brad Parker once stated: >> >> heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL >> source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. > > What does PUSHJ actually do? I remember reading about it in Steven Levy's >Hackers, but never got what was so special about it. > It's a PAL macro for push and jump and there is a return and pop. Come from the fact that PDP-8 put the return address at the called location and the next location is executed. MAIN ; do something JMS I,FOO ; more something FOO ; return stored here Add I,BLAH JMP I,FOO In PDP-8 the I in the addressing is use the contents at the address pointed to. Now if you want recursion You call a standard call and return routine (COSMAC 1802 requires this too). The routine gets the target address(work routine) and the return adddress (caller) and saves the return and dispatches to the work routine. The reverse is done to get back to the originating caller. In the PDP-8A and 6120 there are IOTs to push/pop the ACC on the stack and and also there are a set of push/pops for the PC register. The general PDP-8 archetecture is very unique in that IOTs are really a handoff of the CPU core and registers to the device. So it's possible for IO hardware to get the PC save it and add a number to it and put it in the PC. The EMA is IO hardware. Oh, and they can also ouput/input from the ACC too. However the PDP-8 programmer is less likely to use a stack than a flavor of computed jump or call. PDP-8 is good candidate for an state machine coding. Allison From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed May 11 17:43:30 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 for sale Message-ID: <45779.127.0.0.1.1115851410.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> I've been contacted by someone who is looking to sell an Altair 8800. >From the pictures the machine looks pretty nice with a very clean front panel and no major dings on the chassis. The seller was able to power it up, deposit values into memory and recover (examine) those same values back. The machine comes with the processor card, a RAM card and what appears to be an IO card installed in what looks like a MITS 18 slot motherboard. Pictures are available at http://www.vintage-computer.com/KGAltair.shtml Nothing else is being offered with the computer. He is asking for "market value" for the machine. It will be shipped from Memphis TN. Contact me (webmaster at vintage-NOSPAMcomputer.com - removing the obvious) for his email address, etc. This is not my machine, I am only passing on the word for the seller. The usual disclaimers apply. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed May 11 17:53:57 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:53:57 +0200 Subject: Floppy Sleeves Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050512005354.025c51f8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Seems I had some extra time on my hands for another useless thingie, this time its a collection of Floppy Sleeves. I know there is already one out there but it hasn't been maintained in ages so I thought I start it again. Check it out at http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/floppysleeves/ Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 11 18:05:24 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:05:24 -0400 Subject: Floppy Sleeves In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050512005354.025c51f8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050512005354.025c51f8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <42828FB4.9010309@atarimuseum.com> Speaking of floppy sleeves, anyone know of any retailer that may still stock the ond pull out plastic cabinet draws for 5.25" and 3.5" floppy disks, the ones that you could stack on top of one another. I've got a massive collection of 5.25"s and 3.5"s that I'd like to set up onto storage shelving and more easily have access to. Curt Stefan wrote: > Seems I had some extra time on my hands for another useless thingie, > this time its a collection of Floppy Sleeves. I know there is already > one out there but it hasn't been maintained in ages so I thought I > start it again. Check it out at > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/floppysleeves/ > > Cheers, > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 5/9/2005 From KParker at workcover.com Wed May 11 18:32:38 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:02:38 +0930 Subject: Dec stuff Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BEED@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Can anyone help please - I'm looking for a keyboard and mouse for a DEC Station 5000/125 to complete my machine - I'm located in Australia but will gladly pay packing and shipping costs. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 11 18:37:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:37:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <17026.1801.671000.965178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at May 11, 5 09:22:17 am Message-ID: > Correct. It was designed for the DEC VR241, the same color monitor > that the Pro series uses. Those have RGB inputs, sync on green, > US TV scan parameters (timing and line count). I wondered about that, but I thought it was such an obvious choice that Witchy would have mentioned it if it was a recomended monitor. From what I remmeber there's a switch on the back to select between sync-on-green and separate (composite) sync. The VR241 is, of couree, a Hitachi chassis. A rather unpleasant design, actually. The PSU is driven by the horizotal oscillator, via a winding on the flyback IIRC. Of course the PSU powers the horizontal section. To get it started, there's an astable on the mains side of the PSU that's disabled after a short time, by which point the horizontal side should have got going. So for the PSU to work, the horizontal section -- the most unreliable part of any monitor -- has to be working too. Debugging it is a right pain -- I found that the hard way. Oh, and the deflection driving IC, vertical output stage, etc are part of a thick film hybrid module on the scan PCB. Oh well... -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed May 11 19:14:12 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:14:12 +0100 Subject: 30 6502 book collection on epay... In-Reply-To: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> References: <428261D0.5050207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In message <428261D0.5050207 at atarimuseum.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Anyone who may be interested in a nice collection, at first I thought > the price steep, but when you count that its 30 books, thats not as bad > a deal as it sounds, especially if any of those books may be hard to > find, not my auction btw: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3522&item=5196231351&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Gah. Full of multiple copies. I don't obsess over having a first-run copy of a book - I'd rather have the revised 233rd edition with all the bugfixes. $400 is pretty steep anyway. FWICT there's not many unique titles in there. I'd be surprised if anyone actually paid the starting bid. Then again, I've found a lot of mis-listed stuff on ebay that I got fairly cheap - my copy of "PET and the IEEE488 Bus" for instance. I also got a copy of "Electronic Prototype Construction" (the book that covers CuCl etching chemistry) via Amazon - shame it arrived in pretty bad shape, despite being listed as a "near mint ex-library copy". Peeling cover print is not "near mint" IMO, but at least all the pages were present. Also got a copy of the "CRT Controller Cookbook" by Gerry Kane for ?2 at a computer show - the one book I never managed to get through Amazon or any of the local rare book "specialists". Ideally I'd like to get a few of the books in my collection scanned for preservation reasons. Problem is, I don't have a scanner that can scan books without bending the spine 180 degrees (or attempting to). IIRC Microtek make a proper edge-to-edge book scanner, but I can't see the point in spending ?200+ on something that'll get used maybe five or six times and then get shoved in a cupboard :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Are those cookies made with real Girl Scouts? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 11 20:17:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:17:17 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4282AE9D.103@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm going to stick a GOTO into some code at an inappropriate place today > just to spite the Man! You'll spite yourself! Unnecessary GOTOs are JMPs and will empty your prefetch queue (if your CPU has one :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cmurray at eagle.ca Wed May 11 21:56:32 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:56:32 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> I absolutely concur with John's conclusion: Academia, the elites or otherwise, saw the 'horrors' of goto and declared it an evil that was to be expunged from any language. The toolbox was diminished by this action in my humble opinion. Yet for us QBasic guys we still employ it. Boy does it get one out of a jam. Mimics real life doesn't it? Computing forever! Murray On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: >> Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes >> me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet >> been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression >> calculates the label? Eeek. Certainly it was a step forward, >> but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain >> that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them >> of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox by elitist academics. From tomj at wps.com Wed May 11 20:56:54 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.21571.507874.305205@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C67@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <17026.21571.507874.305205@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050511184156.J992@localhost> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > I only used BEATHE briefly; my recollection is that it used quotes to > mark ALGOL keywords rather than reserved words, i.e., > 'i'f i=1 't'h'e'n ... > instead of > if i=1 then ... Related, the Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 (and the LGP-21) console/paper tape input system seems bizarre today. The INPUT instruction reads tty characters and shifts them into the accumulator until it receives an apostrophe character (yes, '). The machine actually halts (well, infinite I/O wait) for each character. Computer response on each keystroke is therefore impossible. A minimum of two keystrokes (or paper tape characters) is needed for the CPU to see a "keystroke" -- KEY then ' LGP's ACT compiler (which they called fortran-like or algol-like, depending on who you asked) source code looks awful: s1'dim'a'500'm'500'q'500'' index'j'j+1'j-1'' daprt'e'n't'e'r' 'd'a't'a''cr'' rdxit's35'' s2iread'm'1''iread'q'1''iread'd''iread'n'' 1';'j'' 0'flo'd';'d.'' s3'sqrt'd.';'sqrd.'' 1'unflo'sqrd.'i/'10';'sqrd'' 2010'print'sqrd.''2000'iprt'sqrd''cr''cr'' (from http://world.std.com/~reinhold/comp-hist/actiiisample.html) Modern character-based I/O paradigms were not universal and are not the simplest. This kinda stuff was a major stumbling block for program and language development. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 11 21:01:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:01:04 -0500 Subject: TI-980B References: <428244FB.3080303@Rikers.org> <42826F1C.3030703@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <004901c55696$7467f3e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote... > It's a shame too cause the chassis is still in nice shape. I have a TI-990, but mine has the "dumbed down" panel instead of the operators panel. I've been half-heartedly looking for a programmers console. I wonder if my boards would work in that one (if it has an operators panel). Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 11 21:16:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:16:49 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ya know, I gotta disagree... and this is coming from a programmer who made liberal use of the GOTO statement. I was preached to in college about not using it, but I still did. For many years in professional life as well. But when I got the C bug, I started conciously trying to keep it out of the other languages I used. I found the code to be prettier, more easy to follow, and easier to modify. But then, I've always been obsessive about modularization, most routines are just a few lines of code. Not that I look down on programmers who use it, not in the least. But for me, I'm fairly happy it's less common nowdays. And this is coming from someone who adored HP TSB, where GOTO's are extremely frequent :) Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 11 21:37:12 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050511193452.V66777@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox > by elitist academics. Most particularly Dijkstra. But you might enjoy some of his other statements, such as: FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use. PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to the problem set than to the solution set. It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 11 21:46:00 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 03:46:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050512024601.86280.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Ya know, I gotta disagree... and this is coming from a programmer > who made liberal use of the GOTO statement. ... > Not that I look down on programmers who use it, not in the least. > But for me, I'm fairly happy it's less common nowdays. Programming mostly in assembler I couldn't avoid GOTO, relative or absolute, if I wanted to so it's fortunate that I don't. Computed GOTOs are not only 'not a bad thing' they are a very usefull tool at this level, condensing long lists of compares to a simple calculation and table. To proscribe the use of any particular construct within a language wastes effort when that constuct could provide a solution, it's up to the programmer to use all of a language appropriately. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spc at conman.org Wed May 11 22:04:02 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050511193452.V66777@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 11, 2005 07:37:12 PM Message-ID: <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > Most particularly Dijkstra. > > But you might enjoy some of his other statements, such as: > > > FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 years old, is ... > PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to the problem set than ... > The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, ... > APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language ... > Um ... what language *did* he like then? -spc (Let me guess ... Lisp?) From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 11 22:04:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:04:53 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050512024601.86280.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002301c5569f$62768350$fa3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "lee davison" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:46 PM >> Ya know, I gotta disagree... and this is coming from a programmer >> who made liberal use of the GOTO statement. > ... >> Not that I look down on programmers who use it, not in the least. >> But for me, I'm fairly happy it's less common nowdays. > > Programming mostly in assembler I couldn't avoid GOTO, relative or > absolute, if I wanted to so it's fortunate that I don't. Computed > GOTOs are not only 'not a bad thing' they are a very usefull tool at > this level, condensing long lists of compares to a simple calculation > and table. > > To proscribe the use of any particular construct within a language > wastes effort when that constuct could provide a solution, it's up > to the programmer to use all of a language appropriately. > > Lee. I don't know of any compiler that doesn't throw in jumps all over the place. Goto's can be bad if they make the code hard to follow but I find that most people write such sloppy code that it's hard to follow anyway as well as making code more complicated trying to avoid goto's. I rarely use goto's unless I am programming in assembler, I am not sure about my motives probably just because of peer pressure. With most languages goto's can still be clear about what is happening, my pet peeve is a call followed by a return, a goto is just as clear and it is faster. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 11 22:45:30 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: goat ooze [was mostly Re: Infocom on PDP-11] In-Reply-To: <17026.9582.10800.454140@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170838.052a2648@mail> <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17026.9582.10800.454140@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505111952.MAA18200@clulw009.amd.com> <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170838.052a2648@mail> Message-ID: <200505120358.XAA28777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Paul Koning ] > That was the first time in many years -- on this topic I agree with > Dijkstra. But I don't believe he ever advocated not using it ever, > only that it should be avoided when there's a better answer, which is > in about 99% of the cases, but not 100%. [Vintage Computer Festival ] >> That was the first time in many years [...rest of above quote...] > Right. But the way it's taught generally (at least in my experience > and observation) is that you should expend an hour of thinking and 10 > lines of code development rather than use a simple GOTO which would > suffice quite nicely and be more logical and readable. [Jay West ] > I was preached to in college about not using [the goto], but I still > did. For many years in professional life as well. But when I got > the C bug, I started conciously trying to keep it out of the other > languages I used. [...and it's been good...] My position on the goto is that "don't use gotos" is a good thing to teach students. As long as they are coders who need to rely on what they're taught, they shouldn't use gotos, because they won't know when to use them and when not to. As with many other fields, you have to first learn the rules and fully internalize them before you're good enough to know when it's okay to break them. Yes, I use gotos. Very occasionally. Except for throwing out of nested functions in gcc, or when semi-mechanically translating labeled control structure for use with compliers that don't have it, I can't remember the last time I used one. (In neither use do I know of any real alternative, though I do wish for an unwind-protect for the former.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 11 23:01:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20050511210021.V66777@shell.lmi.net> > > Most particularly Dijkstra. > > But you might enjoy some of his other statements, such as: > > > > FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 years old, is ... > > PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to the problem set than ... > > The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, ... > > APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language ... > > On Wed, 11 May 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Um ... what language *did* he like then? > -spc (Let me guess ... Lisp?) I'm going to guess Pascal From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 11 23:09:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050511210021.V66777@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 11, 5 09:01:25 pm" Message-ID: <200505120409.VAA17570@floodgap.com> > > Um ... what language *did* he like then? > > -spc (Let me guess ... Lisp?) > > I'm going to guess Pascal program lart(yo, mama); begin; writeln('You had best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); end. { ;) } -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft ----------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 11 22:58:34 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505120410.AAA04049@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > No -- neither in Pascal nor in Algol do statements end in semicolon. > Instead, statements are SEPARATED by semicolons. An important > difference, which PL/1 and C both got wrong, in different ways. How did C get it wrong? I think Pascal got it wrong and C got it right, because C did it much more the way humans tend to think of it (and that, after all, is really what a programming language is all about: communicating from a human to a computer.) Of course, in C, semicolons don't terminate statements. They terminate *some* statements - specifically, expression statements. (Well, that's the big one. There are also null statements, the do-while, break/continue/return, and (if you count them) declarations, and semicolons occur embedded in a few places like the for statement. And I may have forgotten something.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 11 23:27:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200505120409.VAA17570@floodgap.com> References: <200505120409.VAA17570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050511212434.I66777@shell.lmi.net> > > > Um ... what language *did* he like then? > > > -spc (Let me guess ... Lisp?) > > > > I'm going to guess Pascal On Wed, 11 May 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > program lart(yo, mama); > > begin; > writeln('You had best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); > end. > > { ;) } Of course not. Just going by the fact that it is a lot harder to write a FORTRAN program in Pascal than in most other languages. (and you didn't use any form of GOTO) OB_OT: My previous dog was named 'Pascal'. Current dog is 'Mac' From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 11 23:28:58 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170838.052a2648@mail> References: <200505111952.MAA18200@clulw009.amd.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170838.052a2648@mail> Message-ID: <200505120431.AAA04199@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Among my geezer-rants is the one about how the original Windows > tutorial books by Petzold failed to include proper error checking on > the results from Windows calls. > Gee, it would've made the examples less clear, but it would've saved > a lot of trouble and future (and lingering) bugs for all the > cut-and-paste programmers out there. Would that really have been a good thing? I'm not convinced. (Mind you, I'd still more prefer that cut-and-paste programmers' code were *blatantly* broken, since no matter what's in the examples their code will be subtly broken much of the time anyway.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordon at gjcp.net Wed May 11 23:52:24 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 05:52:24 +0100 Subject: Anyone near Glasgow In-Reply-To: <4275506E.9080809@gjcp.net> References: <26c11a640505011440417c09e0@mail.gmail.com> <4275506E.9080809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4282E108.30909@gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5192249214&rd=1 >> >> >> Looks like there could be some good stuff here. >> >> Dan >> > > I'm in Glasgow, and I suspect I might be very near this guy. > > Weird, the two things mentioned on the mailing list in Glasgow (the > other being the Sanyo CP/M-86 machine a while back) being 10 minutes > from my house... > > Gordon. > I was indeed very near this guy, but the whole area (all around Glasgow) lost cable modems yesterday morning. By the time I got into work and got a chance to look at it, bidding had closed and it was *way* over what I'm allowed to spend on toys. Damn shame, it had been used for developing software under VMS, and had a full complement of developer tools and info. I've got first shout on it if the buyer bails, which is good. The seller said he'd keep in touch. Gordon. From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu May 12 00:38:37 2005 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:38:37 -0500 Subject: 3B2/MIPS/PPC/Cray Garage Sale Update Message-ID: <2fbc6c07.fb2409bd.8198b00@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu> The 3B2s, Motorola PPC 801, and Cray Amber terminal have been claimed. Still available: >A MIPS Magnum 4000PC.50 >(2) SCSI1 External DAT drives. >misc AT era PC cases/motherboards >borken laser printer >Epson LQ1100 dot matrix printer Once again, I don't have details, but can pass along questions, comments, or snyde remarks. Pickup in Champaign/Urbana, IL is preferred, or I can meet you at the Dayton Hamvention next week (!). The owner will also consider shipping if it's something you're interested in and you can pay a bit to cover packing, shipping, etc. Thanks, Dan From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 12 01:13:13 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:13:13 -0500 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170331.056cfe10@mail> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> <20050511112757.G992@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170331.056cfe10@mail> Message-ID: <4282F3F9.1000408@pacbell.net> John Foust wrote: ... > Algol, of course, lives on in Algore, an early supporting > component of the Internet. Don't forget to mention that he invented the algoreithm. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 12 02:15:40 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:15:40 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200505120715.j4C7FesH014621@dewey.classiccmp.org> > I wondered about that, but I thought it was such an obvious > choice that Witchy would have mentioned it if it was a > recomended monitor. From what I remmeber there's a switch on > the back to select between sync-on-green and separate > (composite) sync. I'd have mentioned it if I'd read anywhere that the VR241 was supported :) Everything I've found online talks about the Barco GD33 which surprised me given DEC's 'thou must use our own hardware' point of view, though doesn't the GIGI predate the VR241 by a good couple of years? > Debugging it is a right pain -- I found that the hard way. > Oh, and the deflection driving IC, vertical output stage, etc > are part of a thick film hybrid module on the scan PCB. Eep. I hope mine doesn't give up on me then! cheers a From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu May 12 03:30:31 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: What does PUSHJ do? In-Reply-To: <200505120024.j4C0M69M010407@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505120024.j4C0M69M010407@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005 Allison wrote: > >Subject: What does PUSHJ do? (was Re: was "C on the PDP-8 ... ") > > From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) > > Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:43:49 -0400 (EDT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >It was thus said that the Great Brad Parker once stated: > >> > >> heh. I remember puzzling at the the "pushj"'s and "popj"'s in the FOCAL > >> source code. This was before I had seen a pdp-11 or dec-10. > > > > What does PUSHJ actually do? I remember reading about it in Steven Levy's > >Hackers, but never got what was so special about it. > > > > It's a PAL macro for push and jump and there is a return and pop. Not to mention the fact that on the PDP-10 there actually was the instructions PUSHJ and POPJ, which probably was the inspiration for the macros on a PDP-8. The PDP-10 is a fun architecture. You can do subroutine calls in all the paradigms available. Stack? Sure. Return address at the start of the routine? Sure. Return address in a register? No problem. > Come from the fact that PDP-8 put the return address at the called location and the next > location is executed. > > MAIN ; do something > JMS I,FOO > ; more something > > > FOO ; return stored here > Add I,BLAH > JMP I,FOO > > In PDP-8 the I in the addressing is use the contents at the address > pointed to. Not a good example. It should really be JMS FOO, and at the label FOO you need to place a 0, which is overwritten by the return address. (What assembler do you usually use, btw? Comments come after a slash... :-) ) > Now if you want recursion > > You call a standard call and return routine (COSMAC 1802 requires this too). > > The routine gets the target address(work routine) and the return adddress > (caller) and saves the return and dispatches to the work routine. The > reverse is done to get back to the originating caller. Yup. > In the PDP-8A and 6120 there are IOTs to push/pop the ACC on the stack > and and also there are a set of push/pops for the PC register. Eh? No. The PDP-8/a don't have any stack IOT. Same set as the 8/e. The only difference is how some illegal combinations of OPR instructions act. The CPU deals with almost no IOTs itself. You then have the KK8A and DKC-8AA which handles most IOTs of the machine which are considered to be built in. > However the PDP-8 programmer is less likely to use a stack than a > flavor of computed jump or call. PDP-8 is good candidate for an > state machine coding. Of course, since there isn't any stack in hardware. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 08:08:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:08:44 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> <20050511112757.G992@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170331.056cfe10@mail> Message-ID: <17027.21852.843000.235660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 01:38 PM 5/11/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> Oh yeah, it has !TERRIBLE! features in it! Computed gotos are one >> of the more amusing, and some of the side effects of it are just >> plain bizarre. John> The inverted syntax of "goto 60 if expression" was another that John> caught my eye; ??? There isn't any such syntax in Algol. Maybe you misread a statement that had a conditional expression in it -- the Algol predecessor to what in C is (foo<0) ? 1 : 2 -- but without the unnecessary different tokens. >> But you have to feel for the poor bastards, trying to work out >> these issues where you don't even have a character mapping you can >> rely on. All the quoting/escaping bizarreness, that the unix Algol >> interpreter a60 supports. Ugh. John> One of the aforementioned references points out that Algol John> preceded ASCII and influenced its development. At one point, John> they wanted 'do' and other keywords to be their own character John> (!) so you could have 'do' as a variable name? You seem to be talking about APL. Algol 60 has keywords distinct from variable names, but doesn't say how to implement that. Some implementations have used quoting, some have used reserved words. In Algol 68, that issue was addressed explicitly rather than left unanswered. I don't see how Algol 60 had anything to do with ASCII. Certainly the ASCII character set (never mind the early versions) don't match what the Algol 60 spec uses -- things like the sign for <= or for boolean equivalence or "not" didn't show up in standard character sets until Unicode. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 08:13:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:13:08 -0400 Subject: GIGI questions References: <17026.1801.671000.965178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17027.22116.49000.499277@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: Tony> The VR241 is, of couree, a Hitachi chassis. A rather unpleasant Tony> design, actually. The PSU is driven by the horizotal Tony> oscillator, via a winding on the flyback IIRC. Of course the Tony> PSU powers the horizontal section. ... If you think that's bad, how about the VR201? It may have seemed like a cute idea to use 12 volts to power a CRT, but it turns out to be a major mistake. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 08:19:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:19:39 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C67@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <17026.21571.507874.305205@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050511184156.J992@localhost> Message-ID: <17027.22507.879000.487602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> I only used BEATHE briefly; my recollection is that it used quotes >> to mark ALGOL keywords rather than reserved words, i.e., 'i'f i=1 >> 't'h'e'n ... instead of if i=1 then ... Tom> Related, the Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 (and the Tom> LGP-21) console/paper tape input system seems bizarre today. Tom> The INPUT instruction reads tty characters and shifts them into Tom> the accumulator until it receives an apostrophe character (yes, Tom> '). The machine actually halts (well, infinite I/O wait) for Tom> each character. Ditto the IBM 1620, where all I/O instructions on all the devices would stall the CPU while the I/O was in progress. In that case, the input might terminate by one of several rules -- always a card for the card reader, terminated by CR on the typewriter, or terminated by a "record mark" (a distinct character) on the paper tape reader if I remember right. On the other hand, this approach did make I/O very easy -- a "card to printer" program would take only three instructions and fit easily on one machine language (decimal, not binary) card. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 08:25:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:25:38 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <20050511193452.V66777@shell.lmi.net> <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <17027.22866.785000.346394@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sean" == Sean Conner writes: Sean> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: >> Most particularly Dijkstra. >> >> But you might enjoy some of his other statements, such as: >> >> FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 >> years old, is ... PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to >> the problem set than ... The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its >> teaching should, therefore, ... APL is a mistake, carried through >> to perfection. It is the language ... Sean> Um ... what language *did* he like then? Algol 60. After all, he was involved in its creation. Then again, his later work was done in a paper language, somewhat Algol-like but without the quirks. It would be an interesting classroom project to create a formal grammar and compiler for that. But not Algol 68. I once made the mistake of mentioning Algol 68 to him. I got an earful. I think it took me half an hour to extricate myself from that one... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 08:30:00 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C68@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <17026.28872.655548.394494@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505120410.AAA04049@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17027.23128.478000.991676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> No -- neither in Pascal nor in Algol do statements end in >> semicolon. Instead, statements are SEPARATED by semicolons. An >> important difference, which PL/1 and C both got wrong, in >> different ways. der> How did C get it wrong? I think Pascal got it wrong and C got der> it right, because C did it much more the way humans tend to der> think of it (and that, after all, is really what a programming der> language is all about: communicating from a human to a der> computer.) der> Of course, in C, semicolons don't terminate statements. They der> terminate *some* statements - specifically, expression der> statements. Exactly. C has a random grammar -- the random rules for semicolons is just one example. It's especially bad with K&R function headers -- I dropped those like a hot potato when I learned about ANSI headers, where I actually had a chance to get the syntax right on the first attempt. The Algol/Pascal rule is very simple: semicolons between statements. Since Algol at least has null statements, if you throw in an extra one it doesn't hurt, but that's the rule and it works very well. Thus the program that Cameron quoted as begin; writeln('You had best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); end. should be written without either of the semicolons. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 12 08:38:58 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17027.23128.478000.991676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "May 12, 5 09:30:00 am" Message-ID: <200505121338.GAA15606@floodgap.com> > The Algol/Pascal rule is very simple: semicolons between statements. > Since Algol at least has null statements, if you throw in an extra one > it doesn't hurt, but that's the rule and it works very well. > > Thus the program that Cameron quoted as > begin; > writeln('You had best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); > end. > > should be written without either of the semicolons. Why? (Unless you're talking about Algol.) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 12 08:44:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:44:47 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:04:53 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Goto's can be bad if they make the code hard to follow but I find that most >people write such sloppy code that it's hard to follow anyway as well as >making code more complicated trying to avoid goto's. Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. I'm one of the few that was mostly BASIC and ASM until UCSD P-system and decided to learn a "structured" language. I was eye opening the difference coding learned. After that I tried writing basic using block structure and treating goto and return like Call and JUMP with better looking results. I can see the effect it had looking at some of my really old code. I agree with an earlier post. BASIC improperly can rot your mind, it's bad drugs for programmers. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 12 08:57:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:57:54 -0400 Subject: What does PUSHJ do? Message-ID: <0IGD007OKQS5UCR7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: What does PUSHJ do? > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:31 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Not a good example. It should really be JMS FOO, and at the label FOO you >need to place a 0, which is overwritten by the return address. (What >assembler do you usually use, btw? Comments come after a slash... :-) ) Mindeye. Neumonics to octal on paper usually. My 8 doesn't have any mass store not even TTY. I plan to take some EEprom and make a RS08 or other disk equivelent. >Eh? No. The PDP-8/a don't have any stack IOT. Same set as the 8/e. The >only difference is how some illegal combinations of OPR instructions act. I've used one that did. Might have been a hack. The 6120 however does and the DEC purchase spec is clear on that too. It's still done with IOTs. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 08:58:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:58:37 +0000 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal Message-ID: <1115906317.17990.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone out there have a Tek 4109 terminal, better still with manuals, and even better still with service info? Witchy chucked his one this way last night. It's powering up now, which is a start... ... sometimes it powers up to just a blank screen, sometimes to a screen with just a flashing cursor (possibly that's right behaviour :) and sometimes a blank screen along with a flashing caps-lock LED. On a reset, sometimes it gives a blank screen and two long beeps from the speaker. Anyone able to tell me what the beep codes mean, what the flashing caps LED means, and what the default power-up state should be? Possibly it's waiting for something from a host (yuck), or at least indication that it's connected to a host via serial port control lines - but the varying power up / reset states suggests that it's not entirely happy anyway... Oh, confirmation that it has all its ROMs would be nice. Of the two rows of four columns, the leftmost column is empty - is that OK, or has someone swiped those two chips for something else? Presumably the fact that it has 6 ROM chips in place (and they're externally accessible and obviously designed to be pluggable) hints that it has some sort of custom on-board app? There's a Tek tablet with it too (4197 IIRC) - no idea which of the two COM ports this should plug into, but I'd assume if the terminal was going to do anything it'd do it whether the tablet was present or not... anyone? :) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 09:28:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:28:12 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <17027.23128.478000.991676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505121338.GAA15606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <17027.26620.598000.591106@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> The Algol/Pascal rule is very simple: semicolons between >> statements. Since Algol at least has null statements, if you >> throw in an extra one it doesn't hurt, but that's the rule and it >> works very well. >> >> Thus the program that Cameron quoted as begin; writeln('You had >> best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); end. >> >> should be written without either of the semicolons. Cameron> Why? (Unless you're talking about Algol.) Because Pascal uses the same rule of semicolons as Algol does. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 12 09:38:22 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17027.26620.598000.591106@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "May 12, 5 10:28:12 am" Message-ID: <200505121438.HAA15754@floodgap.com> > > > The Algol/Pascal rule is very simple: semicolons between > > > statements. Since Algol at least has null statements, if you > > > throw in an extra one it doesn't hurt, but that's the rule and it > > > works very well. > > > > > > Thus the program that Cameron quoted as begin; writeln('You had > > > best not be dissing Pascal, boy'); end. > > > > > > should be written without either of the semicolons. > > Why? (Unless you're talking about Algol.) > Because Pascal uses the same rule of semicolons as Algol does. I was all set to disagree with you, so I ran it through Turbo Pascal without the semicolons and ... it worked. However, when you say semicolons between statements, that's what I did. So why could I have dropped the semicolons, unless I have the wrong idea about what Pascal (and presumably Algol) considers a statement? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 09:45:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:45:22 -0400 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 References: <17027.26620.598000.591106@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505121438.HAA15754@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <17027.27650.271000.170117@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> > > should be written without either of the semicolons. >> > Why? (Unless you're talking about Algol.) >> Because Pascal uses the same rule of semicolons as Algol does. Cameron> I was all set to disagree with you, so I ran it through Cameron> Turbo Pascal without the semicolons and ... it worked. Cameron> However, when you say semicolons between statements, that's Cameron> what I did. So why could I have dropped the semicolons, Cameron> unless I have the wrong idea about what Pascal (and Cameron> presumably Algol) considers a statement? "begin" and "end" are not statements -- they are keywords. Think of them as parentheses. (In fact, in Algol 68 they are synonymous with parentheses.) Similarly, you don't put semicolons into the middle of an if/then/else either. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 12 09:54:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17027.27650.271000.170117@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "May 12, 5 10:45:22 am" Message-ID: <200505121454.HAA17726@floodgap.com> > > However, when you say semicolons between statements, that's > > what I did. So why could I have dropped the semicolons, > > unless I have the wrong idea about what Pascal (and > > presumably Algol) considers a statement? > "begin" and "end" are not statements -- they are keywords. Think of > them as parentheses. (In fact, in Algol 68 they are synonymous with > parentheses.) Similarly, you don't put semicolons into the middle of > an if/then/else either. Ahhh, okay. That explains it. Thanks for the clarification. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 12 10:09:39 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:09:39 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050512030403.3020973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: At 11:04 PM -0400 5/11/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: >> >> Most particularly Dijkstra. >> >> But you might enjoy some of his other statements, such as: >> >> >> FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 years old, is ... >> PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to the problem set than ... >> The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, ... >> APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language ... >> > > Um ... what language *did* he like then? > > -spc (Let me guess ... Lisp?) No, I believe that was around the time he was pushing Modula-2 as a teaching tool. I saved that SIGPlan Notices issue too as I really enjoyed those quotes. Think Intel would pay $5K for that? John From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 12 10:22:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Koan programs (was RE: Infocom on PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <17027.22507.879000.487602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Ditto the IBM 1620, where all I/O instructions on all the devices > would stall the CPU while the I/O was in progress. In that case, the > input might terminate by one of several rules -- always a card for the > card reader, terminated by CR on the typewriter, or terminated by a > "record mark" (a distinct character) on the paper tape reader if I > remember right. > > On the other hand, this approach did make I/O very easy -- a "card to > printer" program would take only three instructions and fit easily on > one machine language (decimal, not binary) card. I recently learned of "Koan" programs, which are one card programs, i.e. one card card-to-tape or card-to-printer, etc. It's sort of like the 1- or 2-line BASIC programming contests that Nibble magazine used to run (I loved those) or the more recent 1K coding contests. Does anyone know where the term "Koan" originates? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 12 10:26:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005, Allison wrote: > Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. > > I'm one of the few that was mostly BASIC and ASM until UCSD P-system > and decided to learn a "structured" language. I was eye opening the > difference coding learned. After that I tried writing basic using > block structure and treating goto and return like Call and JUMP with > better looking results. I can see the effect it had looking at some > of my really old code. My high school compsci teacher introduced me to "structured programming" in BASIC, and I accepted it, but it still seemed to stifle my creativity. In the second semester he forced me into Pascal. Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal system just sucks. I was willing to go along with it and learn Pascal until one day I put in the wrong disk during a proscribed disk swap and, instead of having proper error recovery, the OS proceeded to overwrite my disk with something else, losing all my source code. I swore off Pascal from that moment on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 12 10:35:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:35:43 -0500 Subject: Koan programs (was RE: Infocom on PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <17027.22507.879000.487602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050512103207.051ff1a8@mail> At 10:22 AM 5/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Does anyone know where the term "Koan" originates? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=koan http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ai%20koan My favorite is the first one listed there; this happens to me all the time. "Please don't think you can fix that whining sound by just whacking the computer." Then I spank it in the right spot and the fan stops whining at least long enough for me to leave the building. - John From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 12 10:41:17 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:41:17 -0500 Subject: Koan programs (was RE: Infocom on PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4283791D.2020906@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 12 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: ... > Does anyone know where the term "Koan" originates? japanese zen philosophy From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 12 10:49:00 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:49:00 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050512103825.05185240@mail> At 10:26 AM 5/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal system just sucks. Of course Pascal has its flaws, and they became more obvious as people tried to use this designed-for-education language as a application production language. In its best years, it was a very useful packaging of an integrated editor, file system and interactive compilation and almost-debugging. For several years in college in the early 80s, I made a relatively tremendous amount of cash as a private tutor of business students who were required to take a entry-level programming language course. Most took Pascal. It was a wonderful lesson for my future consulting work, too, learning that you can make more money less strenuously by patiently explaining something to someone than if you had been paid to do it for them. >I was willing to go along with it and learn >Pascal until one day I put in the wrong disk during a proscribed disk >swap and, instead of having proper error recovery, the OS proceeded to >overwrite my disk with something else, losing all my source code. I swore >off Pascal from that moment on. That's the P-System operating system shell or your app, not Pascal. "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language", by Brian Kernighan, circa 1981: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/whypascal.html - John From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu May 12 10:52:06 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:52:06 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <1115913126.6611.14.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 21:56 -0500, Cmurray wrote: > I absolutely concur with John's conclusion: > Academia, the elites or otherwise, saw the 'horrors' of goto and declared it > an evil that was to be expunged from any language. The toolbox was > diminished by this action in my humble opinion. Yet for us QBasic guys we > still employ it. Boy does it get one out of a jam. Mimics real life doesn't > it? > Actually goto and it's ilk (continue, break, ...) are extremely useful and when used properly can actually improve readability and maintainability of code. The best example is for use in an error path were some (a lot?) of cleanup needs to be done. I assert that having the cleanup code replicated 4 or 5 (or ??) times is *less* clear and *less* maintainable than having the cleanup code (at the end of the function) once and all of the error paths "goto" it. For example: if (p == NULL) { rc = RC_P_NULL; goto err_exit; } ... if (q == NULL) { rc = RC_Q_NULL; goto err_exit; } ... err_exit: if (p != NULL) free(p); if (q != NULL) free(q); return(rc); > Computing forever! > > Murray > > > On Wed, 11 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > > >> Speaking as that voice from the future, reading ALGOL makes > >> me say "You don't want to do it that way." GOTO had not yet > >> been exorcised. Did I see a computed goto, where the expression > >> calculates the label? Eeek. Certainly it was a step forward, > >> but we've also learned a lot since then. When people complain > >> that computer languages haven't changed much, remind them > >> of the stuff that's fallen out of recommended practice. > > > I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox > by elitist academics. > > -- TTFN - Guy From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Thu May 12 10:00:07 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 02:00:07 +1100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <200505120715.j4C7FesH014621@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050513020007.009ceb40@pop-server> At 08:15 AM 5/12/05 +0100, you wrote: >I'd have mentioned it if I'd read anywhere that the VR241 was supported :) >Everything I've found online talks about the Barco GD33 which surprised me >given DEC's 'thou must use our own hardware' point of view, though doesn't >the GIGI predate the VR241 by a good couple of years? > >> Debugging it is a right pain -- I found that the hard way. >> Oh, and the deflection driving IC, vertical output stage, etc >> are part of a thick film hybrid module on the scan PCB. > >Eep. I hope mine doesn't give up on me then! >From memory the manual recommended Barco monitors, so I doubt DEC sold a matching color monitor at the time. I had a GiGi a few years back. I ran it on a VR241 and it worked well. The same VR241 served me well on my Amiga and various other home computers for a couple of years before it finally died. It may even still be here somewhere, by the time it died I'd picked up various other monitors so I never attempted to get it running again. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 12 11:06:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:06:10 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17027.32498.404228.69904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Allison wrote: >> Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. >> >> I'm one of the few that was mostly BASIC and ASM until UCSD >> P-system and decided to learn a "structured" language. I was eye >> opening the difference coding learned. After that I tried writing >> basic using block structure and treating goto and return like Call >> and JUMP with better looking results. I can see the effect it had >> looking at some of my really old code. Vintage> My high school compsci teacher introduced me to "structured Vintage> programming" in BASIC, and I accepted it, but it still Vintage> seemed to stifle my creativity. No wonder -- structured programming in Basic is like doing carpentry with a nail file and a brick as your only tools. Vintage> In the second semester he Vintage> forced me into Pascal. Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal Vintage> system just sucks. I was willing to go along with it and Vintage> learn Pascal until one day I put in the wrong disk during a Vintage> proscribed disk swap and, instead of having proper error Vintage> recovery, the OS proceeded to overwrite my disk with Vintage> something else, losing all my source code. I swore off Vintage> Pascal from that moment on. I didn't realize the implementation was that bad. Unfortunate that you mistook implementation incompetence as a reflection on the language rather than on the implementers. My experience was just the opposite -- started in high school with Algol (THE system), detoured through Fortran 2, assembler, and BASIC-PLUS, then at U of Ill took a compiler course where the prof forced us to use his (Cornell U) PL/1 "compiler" -- an utter piece of trash. In mid-course its defects were so obvious even to its creator that he allowed us to switch to Pascal on the DEC-10, which was excellent. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu May 12 11:27:24 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:27:24 -0400 Subject: Manuals needed - S-100 cards In-Reply-To: <200505121505.j4CF54W4018897@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505121627.j4CGRLWZ017167@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I recently picked up some memory boards for which I have no manuals. If anyone has documentation for these and will loan the hard copy to me, I will scan the manuals to PDF files and make them available on Howard's site, and return the originals. Of course if anyone has a scanned version in any format, that works also. There are two boards: -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 32K Superram S-100 memory board, (c)1978. Board has 64 type 4044 or 5257 4kx1 static memory chips -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 16K Superam S-100 memory board, (c) 1978. Board has 32 type 2114 memory chips (are these and the 4044/5257 all interchangeable?). Board has six 8-position dip switches on it, plus an 8 position jumper. Even allowing for both bank switching and 24-bit addressing, it seems like a lot. Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:28:27 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:28:27 -0700 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: <1115906317.17990.14.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115906317.17990.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Do you have the Tek mouse also? Turn it on. While you hold down the self test button, you press and release the reset button. Hold in the self test button for another 2 seconds, then release it You should see a white cross hair cursor in the middle of the screen. After about 30 seconds the keyboard beeps and a test menu is displayed. Press F7 for the extended test. After about 4 minutes an extended menu appears. When it boots to the Astric prompt try entering "status" that should give you more information. Two beeps on the keyboard indicates an error. Do any error codes get displayed on the screen at that time. 6 ROMs is about right. I doubt you are missing any. I have the docs but they are burried in storage and I havn't seen them for a couple of years. I did find a generic CX4100 series terminal manual which covers the IBM (3270) versions of the terminals so I can answer some questions. Paxton Astoria,OR On 5/12/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone out there have a Tek 4109 terminal, better still with manuals, > and even better still with service info? > > Witchy chucked his one this way last night. It's powering up now, which > is a start... > > ... sometimes it powers up to just a blank screen, sometimes to a screen > with just a flashing cursor (possibly that's right behaviour :) and > sometimes a blank screen along with a flashing caps-lock LED. > > On a reset, sometimes it gives a blank screen and two long beeps from > the speaker. > > Anyone able to tell me what the beep codes mean, what the flashing caps > LED means, and what the default power-up state should be? > > Possibly it's waiting for something from a host (yuck), or at least > indication that it's connected to a host via serial port control lines - > but the varying power up / reset states suggests that it's not entirely > happy anyway... > > Oh, confirmation that it has all its ROMs would be nice. Of the two rows > of four columns, the leftmost column is empty - is that OK, or has > someone swiped those two chips for something else? Presumably the fact > that it has 6 ROM chips in place (and they're externally accessible and > obviously designed to be pluggable) hints that it has some sort of > custom on-board app? > > There's a Tek tablet with it too (4197 IIRC) - no idea which of the two > COM ports this should plug into, but I'd assume if the terminal was > going to do anything it'd do it whether the tablet was present or not... > > anyone? :) > > cheers > > Jules > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From news at computercollector.com Thu May 12 11:34:12 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:34:12 -0400 Subject: Manuals needed - S-100 cards In-Reply-To: <200505121627.j4CGRLWZ017167@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200505121633.j4CGXMdL020378@dewey.classiccmp.org> If anyone can help you, I think it'd be Herb J. -- http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s100.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:27 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Manuals needed - S-100 cards I recently picked up some memory boards for which I have no manuals. If anyone has documentation for these and will loan the hard copy to me, I will scan the manuals to PDF files and make them available on Howard's site, and return the originals. Of course if anyone has a scanned version in any format, that works also. There are two boards: -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 32K Superram S-100 memory board, (c)1978. Board has 64 type 4044 or 5257 4kx1 static memory chips -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 16K Superam S-100 memory board, (c) 1978. Board has 32 type 2114 memory chips (are these and the 4044/5257 all interchangeable?). Board has six 8-position dip switches on it, plus an 8 position jumper. Even allowing for both bank switching and 24-bit addressing, it seems like a lot. Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 12 11:52:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050512103825.05185240@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 10:26 AM 5/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal system just sucks. > > Of course Pascal has its flaws, and they became more obvious as > people tried to use this designed-for-education language as a > application production language. In its best years, it was > a very useful packaging of an integrated editor, file system > and interactive compilation and almost-debugging. My comment was directed specifically at the UCSD Pascal system, and furthermore directly at the Apple version. Pascal as a language is not bad, and is probably the best language for doing what it was invented for, which is teaching high level programming. And of course, tons of useful production software has been developed in Pascal. > >I was willing to go along with it and learn > >Pascal until one day I put in the wrong disk during a proscribed disk > >swap and, instead of having proper error recovery, the OS proceeded to > >overwrite my disk with something else, losing all my source code. I swore > >off Pascal from that moment on. > > That's the P-System operating system shell or your app, not Pascal. Right. Just for the record, it was you knocking Pascal and not me, so all flames should be directed at you ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 11 05:35:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:35:19 +0000 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <20050511055515.GB22037@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <200505102146.j4ALk2PL091439@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1115763152.14621.77.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050511055515.GB22037@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <1115807719.16331.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 07:55 +0200, als at thangorodrim.de wrote: > > [imagemagick] > > Note that it's *not* quick by any means and eats memory; Imagemagick > > buffers everything as 32bit internally (the one thing I hate about it!) > > so even if you have mono images as input it's still going to treat the > > images as 32bit before appending to the output pdf file. > > Yes, it is a _serious_ memory hog and quite slow too. To be fair, it's seriously quick on large images with multiple bit depths though (say, digital camera sorts of resolutions and above). It's probably efficient on memory usage for those types of images, although I've never checked... We used to regularly chuck 10k x 10k pixel images at it and apply various transforms, and it was *way* quicker than anything else we could find on the market (free or otherwise) at the time. Hopefully one day they'll modify the code so that images with 8bpp or less are handled more efficiently for certain operations (probably controlled via a command-line flag) > > Funnily enough the first thing I do when I download a bunch of scans in > > PDF format is convert them to multiple TIFF images, as they're easier to > > handle in whatever app is appropriate for what I'm trying to do versus > > some sucky PDF viewer ;-) > > Just for reading a scanned article I find the PDF version easier to > handle. But still keep the original TIFF files just in case. Each to their own :) Usually I'll just use my favourite thumbnail viewer to browse / read - I just find it handy to be able to quickly deal with individual pages rather than something encapsulated in another file I suppose. Plus of course I use Linux on the desktop and all the Linux PDF viewers are crap :-) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 12 12:13:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:13:06 -0600 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42838EA2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Thu, 12 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > > >>At 10:26 AM 5/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> >>>Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal system just sucks. >>> >>> >>Of course Pascal has its flaws, and they became more obvious as >>people tried to use this designed-for-education language as a >>application production language. In its best years, it was >>a very useful packaging of an integrated editor, file system >>and interactive compilation and almost-debugging. >> >> > >My comment was directed specifically at the UCSD Pascal system, and >furthermore directly at the Apple version. Pascal as a language is not >bad, and is probably the best language for doing what it was invented for, >which is teaching high level programming. And of course, tons of useful >production software has been developed in Pascal. > > > Pascal was punch card user input , C at least used TTY's :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 12:16:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:16:33 +0000 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1115906317.17990.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1115918193.17990.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 09:28 -0700, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Do you have the Tek mouse also? No mouse, just the tablet - but I assume they'll be interchangeable... (failing that, there's a Tek quadrature mouse on my XD88 which I assume would work) Minor problem, in that I found the keyboard's pretty hosed. It uses metal foil circles for the switch contacts; these are attached to the switch plungers via foam spacers which give he correct clearance and presumably help with the keyboard's feel... Unfortunately it's the same stuff normally used for fan filters, and has totally decayed :-( I *might* have a bit of foam sheet of the right thickness from which I can cut replacements, but doing it for that many keys is going to take me a while! :) Hmm... I suppose if the self-tests are mouse driven I can run the keyboard with no keys just for the purpose of testing the terminal though (and short pads where necessary to simulate keypresses) Thanks for the info! (I'd tried powering up with self-test held in, but not doing a reset with self-test held in :) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 12 12:26:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17027.32498.404228.69904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Allison wrote: > >> Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. > >> > >> I'm one of the few that was mostly BASIC and ASM until UCSD > >> P-system and decided to learn a "structured" language. I was eye > >> opening the difference coding learned. After that I tried writing > >> basic using block structure and treating goto and return like Call > >> and JUMP with better looking results. I can see the effect it had > >> looking at some of my really old code. > > Vintage> My high school compsci teacher introduced me to "structured > Vintage> programming" in BASIC, and I accepted it, but it still > Vintage> seemed to stifle my creativity. > > No wonder -- structured programming in Basic is like doing carpentry > with a nail file and a brick as your only tools. Well, the intent was to get us ready for something entirely new. The class was small (only about 5 of the geekiest geeks in school), and all of us were basically BASIC programmers. I guess our teacher felt if he threw us into Pascal without first introducing the concepts of structured programming in something we knew then we might get totally lost. It would probably have been better to just be dunked in the pool and forced to learn how to swim. > Vintage> In the second semester he > Vintage> forced me into Pascal. Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal > Vintage> system just sucks. I was willing to go along with it and > Vintage> learn Pascal until one day I put in the wrong disk during a > Vintage> proscribed disk swap and, instead of having proper error > Vintage> recovery, the OS proceeded to overwrite my disk with > Vintage> something else, losing all my source code. I swore off > Vintage> Pascal from that moment on. > > I didn't realize the implementation was that bad. Unfortunate that > you mistook implementation incompetence as a reflection on the > language rather than on the implementers. Again, I swore off Pascal because of the UCSD system. If I'd had Turbo Pascal to learn on then things might've turned out much different. Of course, Turbo Pascal required a CP/M card and a license. It was easier for teacher to just copy UCSD Pascal ;) Pascal is not a bad language to develop in. But I much prefer the succinctness of C. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kth at srv.net Thu May 12 12:36:45 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:36:45 -0600 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: <1115918193.17990.29.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1115906317.17990.14.camel@weka.localdomain> <1115918193.17990.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4283942D.9070709@srv.net> Jules Richardson wrote: >Minor problem, in that I found the keyboard's pretty hosed. It uses >metal foil circles for the switch contacts; these are attached to the >switch plungers via foam spacers which give he correct clearance and >presumably help with the keyboard's feel... > >Unfortunately it's the same stuff normally used for fan filters, and has >totally decayed :-( > >I *might* have a bit of foam sheet of the right thickness from which I >can cut replacements, but doing it for that many keys is going to take >me a while! :) > > Go to a hobby shop (scrapbooking, etc.), and look at their selection of paper punches. They often have a very large selection. You may need to buy two (one for center hole, one for outside ring). I'd think they would handle thin foam fairly well. Would by much easier and faster than trying to cut them out with scissers or a knife. >Hmm... I suppose if the self-tests are mouse driven I can run the >keyboard with no keys just for the purpose of testing the terminal >though (and short pads where necessary to simulate keypresses) Thanks >for the info! (I'd tried powering up with self-test held in, but not >doing a reset with self-test held in :) > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 12 12:37:19 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505121737.KAA18715@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I'd suspect that most didn't like the goto because it becomes hard to implement in a structured language. Things like random nesting of subroutines and then goto's to various points can make things really messed up. There are also the problems of allocated memory. Do you keep it or clean it? Forth, like many languages doesn't specifically have a goto but in to Forth philosophy, you can always write your own. Most newer Forths have an error handling method called catch and throw. This tidies up the stacks and still allows one to goto an outer level of hierarchy at random depths, like a goto should. It doesn't work at all to go to a deeper level of hierarchy. I think this is where BASIC gets it self into trouble. Many think of goto as being similar to jmp in assembly. Actually in a high level language, it is more complicated than that. The language tend to lead one to think they can use it just anywhere. In assembly, you are more conscious ( or should be ) of thing like stack depth and allocated space, since you explicitly handle these things. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 12 12:43:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:43:00 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <0IGE004IY17OY6M0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:26:41 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Again, I swore off Pascal because of the UCSD system. If I'd had Turbo >Pascal to learn on then things might've turned out much different. Of >course, Turbo Pascal required a CP/M card and a license. It was easier >for teacher to just copy UCSD Pascal ;) Depends on the boxen used and it's storage limits. I had a NS* with three 89k drives and that was adaquate to avoid swapping media. In the end it was ok. Though it beat the Univac1180, greatly. The reason was I was developing code infront of a H19 terminal with an anadex 80cps printer rather than submitting card decks. My intro to Pascal in '79 was a Data Structures course with asm and BASIC as a "what I had before". >Pascal is not a bad language to develop in. But I much prefer the >succinctness of C. Pascal is OK. C on the other hand I found had some syntax odditites that still trips me. I find C is like reading weather sequence reports for the first time. I'll repeat that in that form. I fnd C rd wx sq rpts trbl. It's often cryptic to the extreme and nearly as readable as uncommented ASM. The OO versions are plainly pain. Allison From gstreet at indy.net Thu May 12 12:51:23 2005 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert Greenstreet) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:51:23 -0500 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer In-Reply-To: <200505121703.j4CH3mPv020763@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> In 1981, down by Fisherman's wharf (SFO), a friend and I got our "picture" taken via video capture software. The image was printed out via a "commercial" quality dot matrix printer (it was capable of fairly large sized print outs). From a distance, the "picture" quality was striking. What hardware and software were used for this process? Does anything similar currently exist? Thanks, Robert Greenstreet From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 12 12:56:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:56:22 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <0IGE00JRT1TYXWT4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi > I'd suspect that most didn't like the goto >because it becomes hard to implement in a structured >language. Things like random nesting of subroutines and >then goto's to various points can make things really >messed up. There are also the problems of allocated >memory. Do you keep it or clean it? Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles get mixed with gotos. It's more about readability. Old basic was bad as often people were also cramped for space (especially interpreted basics.). > Many think of goto as being similar to jmp in assembly. It is. >Actually in a high level language, it is more complicated >than that. The language tend to lead one to think they >can use it just anywhere. In assembly, you are more >conscious ( or should be ) of thing like stack depth >and allocated space, since you explicitly handle these >things. You seem to confuse JMP/Jump/goto with Call/JMS/GOSUB as only the latter affects the stack (in asm). In assembly you often have jumps as a result of branch conditions In some cpus the logic is actully skip next instuction on condition. in basic the conditional is IF xx then Goto YYYY (some allow operations.). The computed goto is only a replacement for SWITCH or IF THEN trees and a improvement over the latter. In the end GOTO is not bad, it is random stringy pasta code that can result from misuse. Allison From Mark at Misty.com Thu May 12 13:03:08 2005 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:03:08 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 06:57:13PM +0200, SP wrote: > Hello everybody. > > I've obtained recently one Xerox 820 without the floppies unit box :-) In > these circumstances the system is lightly unuseful. Someone has one floppy > units box for this system available for free or trade ? I'm relatively sure there is nothing significant in the floppies unit box other than the disk drives and power supply. In the mid-80's I obtained an 820-II motherboard, and simply soldered "D" connector pins onto a floppy drive ribon cable, to connect a pair of 8" floppies to the thing, making up my first CP/M computer system. The 8" drives were cheap and common then, but the ones in the Xerox box and the Xerox cable were not so common. > There is another question in addition... the floppies connector has 37 pin. > I suppose it allows the Xerox to use 5.25 floppies. But in some place I've > read about 8" floppy units for the 820. What's about that ? Both are possible. If you obtain and attach 8" drives, I can send you a bootable floppy, once I get my system up and running again. If someone provides more info about 5.25" drives, maybe I'll be able to get them working on my 820-II. Better yet, maybe someone knows of more modern storage alternatives that could be made to work with these. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 12 13:06:28 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:06:28 -0400 Subject: Manuals needed - S-100 cards In-Reply-To: <200505121627.j4CGRLWZ017167@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: > -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 32K Superram S-100 memory board, (c)1978. Board > has 64 type 4044 or 5257 4kx1 static memory chips > > -"Thinker Toys" (Morrow) 16K Superam S-100 memory board, (c) 1978. Board > has 32 type 2114 memory chips (are these and the 4044/5257 all > interchangeable?). No, 2114s are 1kx4bits. Usually activated in pairs to give 1kbyte storage units. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 12 13:15:11 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:15:11 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <0IGE00JRT1TYXWT4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGE00JRT1TYXWT4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050512131423.0510ee70@mail> At 12:56 PM 5/12/2005, Allison wrote: >Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine >usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles >get mixed with gotos. Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. - John From liste at artware.qc.ca Thu May 12 13:32:22 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512024601.86280.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'goto' is still very much alive : only they call it throwing an exception these days. -Philip From liste at artware.qc.ca Thu May 12 13:32:22 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512024601.86280.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'goto' is still very much alive : only they call it throwing an exception these days. -Philip From jhoger at gmail.com Thu May 12 13:32:21 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:32:21 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505121737.KAA18715@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505121737.KAA18715@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: Actually I like exception handling even less than C-style goto; when an exception comes, in the middle of any routine you jump scope practically at/to a random point or circumstance and start executing code in a sequence that the programmer couldn't really have intended. It violates the designed control flow and is therefore evil. At least a C-style goto scope is limited to a single subroutine. Exceptions actually jump scope between routines. What are they thinking??? No, I prefer to get status codes and write explicit error handlers where they make sense. Now true exceptions like a divide-by-zero, well, I can see having exception handlers for that. But for the modern usage of sending error codes? Horrible. I do use goto in specific, limited ways. For example, to enter a loop just after the top (useful in printing comma separated lists, for example without use of a flag variable), or common exit/cleanup handlers. All computer scientists have ever proved is that you could get by without goto. They jumped to an unwarranted conclusion when they decided it should never be used. -- John. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 12 13:39:02 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:39:02 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050513020007.009ceb40@pop-server> Message-ID: <200505121838.j4CIcpD3022176@dewey.classiccmp.org> > matching color monitor at the time. I had a GiGi a few years > back. I ran it on a VR241 and it worked well. The same > VR241 served me well on my Amiga and various other home > computers for a couple of years before it finally died. It That's good to know, I'll try and dig out a cable (or cables) this weekend assuming I don't get sidelined into DIY at home :) Ta! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 12 13:41:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:41:03 +0100 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: <1115918193.17990.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200505121840.j4CIeoaQ022253@dewey.classiccmp.org> > On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 09:28 -0700, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > Do you have the Tek mouse also? > > No mouse, just the tablet - but I assume they'll be interchangeable... You should have the mouse - it was in the box with the keyboard and tablet! a From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 12 13:47:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505121847.LAA18731@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>Hi >> I'd suspect that most didn't like the goto >>because it becomes hard to implement in a structured >>language. Things like random nesting of subroutines and >>then goto's to various points can make things really >>messed up. There are also the problems of allocated >>memory. Do you keep it or clean it? > >Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine >usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles >get mixed with gotos. It's more about readability. Old basic >was bad as often people were also cramped for space (especially >interpreted basics.). > >> Many think of goto as being similar to jmp in assembly. > >It is. > >>Actually in a high level language, it is more complicated >>than that. The language tend to lead one to think they >>can use it just anywhere. In assembly, you are more >>conscious ( or should be ) of thing like stack depth >>and allocated space, since you explicitly handle these >>things. > >You seem to confuse JMP/Jump/goto with Call/JMS/GOSUB as only >the latter affects the stack (in asm). Hi I have no confusion, I meant that jmp instruction does not effect the stacks, for good or bad. It is that most high level languages hide the stack actions giving the false impression that one can goto anywhere. In assembly, one keeps track of such stuff themselves so they don't get into such trouble. > >In assembly you often have jumps as a result of branch conditions >In some cpus the logic is actully skip next instuction on condition. >in basic the conditional is IF xx then Goto YYYY (some allow operations.). >The computed goto is only a replacement for SWITCH or IF THEN trees >and a improvement over the latter. else is a jmp. A computed goto is usually done from a table lookup in assembly although I've seen it done directly for interupt vectors. Dwight > >In the end GOTO is not bad, it is random stringy pasta code that can >result from misuse. > > >Allison > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 12 14:28:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:28:36 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <0IGE00MNW63O0Q71@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! > From: John Foust > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:15:11 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >At 12:56 PM 5/12/2005, Allison wrote: >>Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine >>usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles >>get mixed with gotos. > >Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. > However, GOTO is not a CALL. GOSUB can kill the stack. Allison From spedraja at ono.com Thu May 12 15:32:22 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:32:22 +0200 Subject: Xerox 820 References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com><003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: <001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> Hi ! > I'm relatively sure there is nothing significant in the floppies unit box > other than the disk drives and power supply. In the mid-80's I obtained an > 820-II motherboard, and simply soldered "D" connector pins onto a floppy drive > ribon cable, to connect a pair of 8" floppies to the thing, making up > my first CP/M computer system. The 8" drives were cheap and common then, > but the ones in the Xerox box and the Xerox cable were not so common. I confess my absolute inutility in these matters, but never is too late to begin the training. Do you mean one complete male D connector or D-Sub ? There is some order in the soldering of the pins ? I have three or four shugart 8" units but never tried to put them to work. Mostly cause of the fault of one power supply. If someone knows of the specs of one Power supply for these floppy units, I should agree to get it. > Both are possible. If you obtain and attach 8" drives, I can send you a > bootable floppy, once I get my system up and running again. If someone > provides more info about 5.25" drives, maybe I'll be able to get them > working on my 820-II. Better yet, maybe someone knows of more modern > storage alternatives that could be made to work with these. Mmm... I should like to know if one 5'25 unit like the used for the PS/2 (with 37 pin) could work connected to one Xerox 820. It was one 360k unit, I think. And I have one. Another option, if there is no cabling problem, would be to use a couple of IBM PC 5.25 floppy units, arranging one ribbon floppy cable in the same that you used with the 8" inch. I suppose would be easy to use one program to copy the "standard" CP/M image available in some websites (prepared for the Xerox 820) to 5.25 floppies. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 12 15:41:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:41:18 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> References: <200505121703.j4CH3mPv020763@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> Message-ID: On 5/12/05, Robert Greenstreet wrote: > In 1981, down by Fisherman's wharf (SFO), a friend and I got our "picture" > taken via video capture software. The image was printed out via a > "commercial" quality dot matrix printer (it was capable of fairly large > sized print outs). From a distance, the "picture" quality was striking. > What hardware and software were used for this process? Does anything > similar currently exist? I don't know what equipment was used where you went, but a family friend had one of those setups when I was a kid (c. 1979). His was, IIRC, attached to his Ohio Scientific Challenger III (that was trashed when he loaned it to a local youth group for a fundraiser :-( ). My friend used to make calendars on cloth and T-shirts, mostly. I don't think he had the coffee mug rig. I think Apple IIs were also commonly used for this sort of commercial activity. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu May 12 15:57:03 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:57:03 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > In 1981, down by Fisherman's wharf (SFO), a friend and I got > our "picture" > > taken via video capture software. The image was printed out via a > > "commercial" quality dot matrix printer (it was capable of fairly large > > sized print outs). From a distance, the "picture" quality was striking. > > What hardware and software were used for this process? Does anything > > similar currently exist? > > I don't know what equipment was used where you went, but a family > friend had one of those setups when I was a kid (c. 1979). His was, > IIRC, attached to his Ohio Scientific Challenger III (that was trashed > when he loaned it to a local youth group for a fundraiser :-( ). I second the OSI nomination. A couple of years ago, one of those machines sold on ebay. I was struck by the look of the machine. It was a tan/brown metal chasis, similar to a C1P but with a bigger back end. It also looked like it had the same keyboard layout. I had never seen any other machine that used the OSI keyboard layout. I intended to bid on the lot but forgot. I emailed the winner, asking him if he would let me know if it was, in fact, OSI hardware. He replied, saying that he would when he received the unit, but never did. Bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 12 16:07:19 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:07:19 +0100 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004101c55736$96e30cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John Hogerhuis wrote: > All computer scientists have ever proved is that you could get > by without goto. They jumped to an unwarranted conclusion when > they decided it should never be used. One of Dijkstra's interests was formal specification and verification: basically unambigously describing what you want to do and then proving afterwards that you've done it. You'll notice that the bit in the middle doesn't get a look in :-) In fact, you could argue that the bit in the middle needs to be constrained just so the proof is a practical proposition. So it's nothing to do with stifling your creativity: be as creative as you like. It's just unlikely that any of us (including you) will ever know whether your prorams (or at least any of them of significant size) are correct or not. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jhoger at gmail.com Thu May 12 16:16:55 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:16:55 -0700 Subject: Koan programs (was RE: Infocom on PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: <17027.22507.879000.487602@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: A koan (co-un) is a short story which is a kind of zen buddhist training to put your mind into a certain state of awareness of reality. Basically it is a kind of mental or spiritual technology. You work on it mentally, and your teacher tests you by asking certain questions until he is satisfied that your mind has attained the desired state. Example koans (note you are normally assigned a koan by a Roshi (teacher), you should not assign them to yourself, but just to give you an idea): What is the sound of one hand clapping? What did your face look like before your ancestors were born? Does a dog have a buddha nature? etc. For popular literature which hits on this kind of stuff read Zen and the Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig, or for the real thing, any of the manuals by Roshi Philip Kapleau (sp.?) -- John. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 12 15:51:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:51:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <200505120715.j4C7FesH014621@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Adrian Graham" at May 12, 5 08:15:40 am Message-ID: [VR241] > > Debugging it is a right pain -- I found that the hard way. > > Oh, and the deflection driving IC, vertical output stage, etc > > are part of a thick film hybrid module on the scan PCB. > > Eep. I hope mine doesn't give up on me then! Well, put it this way... It's my least favourite monitor to work on of all the ones I have worked on. I susepct I'd like the 110V version of the original TRS-80 monitor even less (it has a live chassis.....) but fortunately i've only ever had to work on the 230V version which has a step-down isolating transforme in it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 12 15:53:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:53:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> from "Cmurray" at May 11, 5 09:56:32 pm Message-ID: > > I absolutely concur with John's conclusion: > Academia, the elites or otherwise, saw the 'horrors' of goto and declared it > an evil that was to be expunged from any language. The toolbox was > diminished by this action in my humble opinion. Yet for us QBasic guys we > still employ it. Boy does it get one out of a jam. Mimics real life doesn't > it? I regard 'goto as the programming equivalent of the adjustable spanner. There are often better tools to use, using it wrongly can get you into real trouble, but it's rare to find a hacker who's not used it (just as mo hardware guy will use an adjustable spanner when there are better tools available, but I don't know of a serious hardware hacker who doesn't have one in the toolbox...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 12 16:02:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:02:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: <17027.22116.49000.499277@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at May 12, 5 09:13:08 am Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > Tony> The VR241 is, of couree, a Hitachi chassis. A rather unpleasant > Tony> design, actually. The PSU is driven by the horizotal > Tony> oscillator, via a winding on the flyback IIRC. Of course the > Tony> PSU powers the horizontal section. ... > > If you think that's bad, how about the VR201? It may have seemed like I have no problem at all with the VR201. It's a pretty standard and simple design. > a cute idea to use 12 volts to power a CRT, but it turns out to be a > major mistake. Actually, it's very common. Many mono monitors do the same thing. OK, the mains PSU may be intenral, but it's common for said PSU to give out one voltage at around 12V, to use that directly to run the CRT heater and some of the low-level circuitry, and to get the other voltages from the flyback, which in turn is powered by the 12V supply. The IBM 5151 does this, so does a little Zenith MDA monitor I have (but that has the craziest PSU I've ever seen [1]). The IBM PortablePC has a 12V-powered monitor. KME (Kent Modular Electronics) made a mono monitor that ran off 48V. It was used, with slight differences on the PERQ 2T1, where it ran off the 55V output from the main PSU via a linear regulator, and on the Whitechapel MG1, where it ran from the 24V PSU output via a step-up switching regulator (no, I am serious, and that 24V output was used for nothing else....) [1] A free-running chopper driving a transformer producing about 18V. This is half-wave rectified and brought down to 12V with a linear regulator. This combines the reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear ;-) When mine blew up spectacularly (shorted turns on the chopper transformer, took out most of the primary side components), I replaced the whole mess with a normal mains transformer. It was actually smaller..... Oh yes, that linear regulator takes its referencee not from a zener or an IC regulator, but from the green power-on LED... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 12 16:11:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:11:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: <1115918193.17990.29.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 12, 5 05:16:33 pm Message-ID: > Minor problem, in that I found the keyboard's pretty hosed. It uses > metal foil circles for the switch contacts; these are attached to the > switch plungers via foam spacers which give he correct clearance and > presumably help with the keyboard's feel... > > Unfortunately it's the same stuff normally used for fan filters, and has > totally decayed :-( Ah, a Keytronics keyboard.... and alas I know the problem well, as the keyboard on my PERQ 2T1 has suffered :-(. When I get a round tuit, I think I should make some kind of cutting punch and stemp out 100 or so foam circles to fix the darn thing.... Or if you find a quciker way of doing it, let me know... [...] > Hmm... I suppose if the self-tests are mouse driven I can run the > keyboard with no keys just for the purpose of testing the terminal > though (and short pads where necessary to simulate keypresses) Thanks It's capacitive (not contacts). You'll discover the conducting layer is on the _top_ (foam-side) of the lower plastic disk, and doesn't actually short anything). My experience is that a finger placed on the pads provided enough extra capacitance to simulate a keypress... -tony From jhoger at gmail.com Thu May 12 16:28:05 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:28:05 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <004101c55736$96e30cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <004101c55736$96e30cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On 5/12/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > John Hogerhuis wrote: > > > All computer scientists have ever proved is that you could get > > by without goto. They jumped to an unwarranted conclusion when > > they decided it should never be used. > > One of Dijkstra's interests was formal specification and verification: > basically unambigously describing what you want to do and then proving > afterwards that you've done it. You'll notice that the bit in the > middle doesn't get a look in :-) In fact, you could argue that the > bit in the middle needs to be constrained just so the proof is a > practical proposition. > Yeah there can be no algorithm to test algorithm correctness. Halting problem... so naturally you would have to restrict yourself to something less than a turing machine to get this. > So it's nothing to do with stifling your creativity: be as > creative as you like. It's just unlikely that any of us > (including you) will ever know whether your prorams (or at > least any of them of significant size) are correct or not. > Agreed, but nor should anyone really care about provable correctness, right? Engineering is about making things that are practically useful, i.e. "good enough"-- we're not designing stained glass windows for the Church of Reason, we're simply making and maintaining tools to solve todays problems more efficiently than if those tools were not available. -- John. From m_thompson at ids.net Thu May 12 16:32:41 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:32:41 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <200505121703.j4CH3mPv020763@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050512172941.048a12f0@155.212.1.107> At 04:41 PM 5/12/2005, you wrote: >On 5/12/05, Robert Greenstreet wrote: > > In 1981, down by Fisherman's wharf (SFO), a friend and I got our "picture" > > taken via video capture software. The image was printed out via a > > "commercial" quality dot matrix printer (it was capable of fairly large > > sized print outs). From a distance, the "picture" quality was striking. > > What hardware and software were used for this process? Does anything > > similar currently exist? > >I don't know what equipment was used where you went, but a family >friend had one of those setups when I was a kid (c. 1979). His was, >IIRC, attached to his Ohio Scientific Challenger III (that was trashed >when he loaned it to a local youth group for a fundraiser :-( ). > >My friend used to make calendars on cloth and T-shirts, mostly. I >don't think he had the coffee mug rig. > >I think Apple IIs were also commonly used for this sort of commercial >activity. > >-ethan I saw one at our local mall about 25 years ago that was based on a Data General Nova. It wasn't working at the time. I got a free t-shirt for plugging the disk terminator back on. Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 12 16:35:21 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:35:21 -0700 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer References: <200505121703.j4CH3mPv020763@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> Message-ID: <4283CC19.80C9F79B@msm.umr.edu> Princeton university released a famous set of pictures done on impact printers with fixed character sets, such as chain or drum type printers. They had a 256 bit grey scale that was transated to a 6 character overlay for each "pixel". In the actual data, one would transmit a line of information for each raster line in the picture, with the appropriate character for each pixel in the raster, and have 6 lines of data to be overprinted for each line or raster. The princeton set I have had 2 or three sections that all had to be printed, trimmed and fitted together. The Einstein, and spock, and nude photos were very good. I reproduced them on a 1403 on a 360/50 (MVT 21) in college using direct printing, since the tapes I have had fortran carriage control (first column + or space to indicate overstrikes, etc). you could just send it to a 1403, which hardware actually accepted this (or at least the 360 print controller did) and didn't have to code a thing. Later I ran it on Dataproducts 2230's and 2260's and had identical results. All used the back side of 11 x 14 greenbar or similar, and were about 4' tall by 3' wide in dimension. The dot matrix printers can do something that the impact printers cant, and that is dithering. besides just assigning a value to each pixel, dithering recognizes that areas of light and dark exist on a picture, and that pixels are not ideal 0 dimension points, but have area. Dithering is an analysis to cause the colors and shade of pixels to "lean" to the direction of concentrations that exist in areas of an image, and smooth over transistions or aliasing at the same time. I saw this in some dot matrix programs that ran on Printronix p-300's, but again, they did not have imaging, only printing either datasets (like early jpegs or whatever). I never had access to scanners or cameras to play with though i'd love to have. Most of the newer stuff that I saw used a dye transfer process type printer to go from video feed directly onto paper, such as the sony mavica printers which went with their video still cameras. Canon and epson had video still to paper devices that would do that as well. I saw the images transfered via thermal from the paper to specially prepared coffee mugs (the ones that didn't smear) though a white glaze mug would take an image off most of those papers. It just would smear if rubbed or washed. One mug I bought at one time with the treatment had something that absorbed the dye when the heating went on, and you could actually supposedly wash it, and it seemed pretty much rub proof, though I've never pushed it to actually mess up the image (it is now an heirloom, given it has a photo of my dad on it). Jim > > > What hardware and software were used for this process? Does anything > > similar currently exist? > > I don't know what equipment was used where you went, bu From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 12 17:04:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:04:01 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050512131423.0510ee70@mail> References: <0IGE00JRT1TYXWT4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050512131423.0510ee70@mail> Message-ID: On 5/12/05, John Foust wrote: > At 12:56 PM 5/12/2005, Allison wrote: > >Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine > >usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles > >get mixed with gotos. > > Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. On a 6502 (PET, Apple II...) it's not that deep because of the 1-page stack. ISTR about 5 levels of GOSUBs were possible before you ran the risk of stack overflow, but it might have been as deep as 8. -ethan From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 17:37:10 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:37:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050512223710.67957.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. > On a 6502 (PET, Apple II...) it's not that deep because of > the 1-page stack. ISTR about 5 levels of GOSUBs were possible > before you ran the risk of stack overflow, but it might have > been as deep as 8. Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to 50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. FOR ... NEXT is the stack hog, you can usually only nest that 15 deep or less. With C= BASIC you have lass room as the top 10 bytes or so of the stack are reserved for float to ASCII conversion. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 12 17:44:22 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:44:22 +0100 Subject: GIGI questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004f01c55744$25522420$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tony Duell wrote: > mess with a normal mains transformer. It was actually > smaller..... Oh yes, that linear regulator takes its > referencee not from a zener or an IC regulator, but from the > green power-on LED... There should be an award for component-saving designs like that :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 12 17:50:51 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:50:51 +0100 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005001c55745$0d576b40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John Hogerhuis wrote: > Agreed, but nor should anyone really care about provable > correctness, right? Engineering is about making things that > are practically useful, i.e. "good enough"-- we're not > designing stained glass windows for the Church of Reason, > we're simply making and maintaining tools to solve todays > problems more efficiently than if those tools were not > available. Certainly we should not immediately drop our coding sticks and not touch them again until we _know_ we have attained perfection. But I disagree strongly that we should not strive to reach that goal. If we had a mechanism now to create provably correct programs (that met specifications that we could be sure meant what we intended them to mean) - and further assuming that use of such a mechanism did not impose excessive cost or efficiency burdens etc, - then I think we would have to use them for all serious programs. Given the choice, I'd prefer the programs I use to work perfectly rather than imperfectly - and I'd prefer to spend the time I program at work creating correct code rather than being dragged back to fix yesterday's mistake. I'm more than willing to trade an occasional goto for that! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 12 18:16:27 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:16:27 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <005001c55745$0d576b40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <004601c55748$a3416180$0c3fd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Antonio Carlini" Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 5:50 PM > John Hogerhuis wrote: >> Agreed, but nor should anyone really care about provable >> correctness, right? Engineering is about making things that >> are practically useful, i.e. "good enough"-- we're not >> designing stained glass windows for the Church of Reason, >> we're simply making and maintaining tools to solve todays >> problems more efficiently than if those tools were not >> available. > > Certainly we should not immediately drop our coding sticks > and not touch them again until we _know_ we have attained > perfection. But I disagree strongly that we should not strive > to reach that goal. > > If we had a mechanism now to create provably correct > programs (that met specifications that we could be > sure meant what we intended them to mean) - and > further assuming that use of such a mechanism did > not impose excessive cost or efficiency burdens etc, - > then I think we would have to use them for all > serious programs. > > Given the choice, I'd prefer the programs I use to > work perfectly rather than imperfectly - and I'd prefer > to spend the time I program at work creating correct > code rather than being dragged back to fix yesterday's > mistake. > > I'm more than willing to trade an occasional goto for that! > > Antonio One big problem with goto comes from Fortran, with FORTRAN and early Basic's the goto uses line numbers. Newer languages allow better labels: go to 4000 Doesn't tell you much. C C Cleanup files and exit C go to 4000 This at least tells you something. Another problem is that many programmers don't understand the compilers they are using. If you don't understand how the compiler handles stacks etc then we know where the problem is: It is the Programmers fault for using a tool that they don't understand. It is a problem with the Programmers not the tools. It reminds me of stopping to help someone with a flat tire: It was a young guy with a new car with his girlfriend. He had a scissor jack that he had just shoved under the car and jacked it up. He had it under the passenger side floor board and it punched through. Someone else had stopped and lent him an old-fashioned bumper-jack. It had ripped through the plastic bumper. When I stopped he was angry and unwilling to accept any help, it was sad, thousands of dollars worth of damage over a flat tire. It was not either of the jacks fault that they had done all the damage to the car, both jacks were able to do the job that they were designed for but the guy was not trained in how to use them but felt he was smart enough to know what he was doing. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 18:38:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:38:00 +0000 Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1115941080.17990.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 22:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Minor problem, in that I found the keyboard's pretty hosed. It uses > > metal foil circles for the switch contacts; these are attached to the > > switch plungers via foam spacers which give he correct clearance and > > presumably help with the keyboard's feel... > > > > Unfortunately it's the same stuff normally used for fan filters, and has > > totally decayed :-( > > Ah, a Keytronics keyboard.... and alas I know the problem well, as the > keyboard on my PERQ 2T1 has suffered :-(. Rats - first time I've come across it, but I suppose our 2T1 is going to suffer at some point too! > When I get a round tuit, I think I should make some kind of cutting punch > and stemp out 100 or so foam circles to fix the darn thing.... Or if you > find a quciker way of doing it, let me know... Well at the moment I did a quick-fix using cut squares of that draught- excluder strip that you put around doors to seal them. It's sticky on both sides of course, with foam of about the right thickness, so is a reasonably good match. I've only done the worst-looking keys though, not all of them. Using squares rather than circles doesn't seem to be causing a problem so far; whether it'll stand up to regular use is another matter. I did try a bit of foam cut into a circle first just as an experiment, but it looks like getting the right glue there would be tricky (to avoid the glue soaking into the foam and making it go solid) > It's capacitive (not contacts). You'll discover the conducting layer is > on the _top_ (foam-side) of the lower plastic disk, and doesn't actually > short anything). My experience is that a finger placed on the pads > provided enough extra capacitance to simulate a keypress... Aha, interesting. Explains why my trick of shorting pads with a screwdriver to simulate a keypress didn't work! :) The terminal seems to run self-tests ok, but I haven't found a RAM test yet. The random crashes / power-up problems could be a whole host of problems I suppose (I'll put the PSU lines on a 'scope too and check there isn't something funny going on there...) When it works, it looks like quite a nice beastie though... cheers Jules From jhoger at gmail.com Thu May 12 20:45:45 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:45:45 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <005001c55745$0d576b40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <005001c55745$0d576b40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On 5/12/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > If we had a mechanism now to create provably correct > programs (that met specifications that we could be > sure meant what we intended them to mean) - and > further assuming that use of such a mechanism did > not impose excessive cost or efficiency burdens etc, - > then I think we would have to use them for all > serious programs. > That's a big if. I'm pretty well convinced it's a pipe dream. We'll have reasoning machines capable of programming themselves when such a scheme would prove useful (because I believe it is the same problem). Of course if I had *this* I would use it (in fact, someone else would be using it and I'd have to find a new line of work). Today all you can do is trade a specification language for a programming language. I think the programming language is the most succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. You cannot say anything in a programming language that cannot be done. This is more clear on a small language like C or Forth or assembler than it is in something like Perl or even C++. But true nonetheless for those languages as well. -- John. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 12 21:15:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:15:52 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512223710.67957.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050512223710.67957.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/12/05, lee davison wrote: > >> Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. > > > On a 6502 (PET, Apple II...) it's not that deep because of > > the 1-page stack. ISTR about 5 levels of GOSUBs were possible > > before you ran the risk of stack overflow, but it might have > > been as deep as 8. > > Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to > 50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. > > FOR ... NEXT is the stack hog, you can usually only nest that > 15 deep or less. > > With C= BASIC you have lass room as the top 10 bytes or so of > the stack are reserved for float to ASCII conversion. Maybe that was it... MS BASIC on a C= PET, with subroutine calls and FOR/NEXT nested deep enough that one _could_ see the bottom. I never did a GOSUB-only test, but ISTR having to design some stuff with stack depth in mind (I did a lot of stuff with Interactive Fiction/Adventure Games in the late 1970s in BASIC, then I learned 6502 assembly ;-) -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 12 22:34:52 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505130343.XAA09194@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 'goto' is still very much alive : only they call it throwing an > exception these days. Disgaree. if (index(s,'/')) { ... process ... if (! index(s,'*')) { ... compute new pointer and store it in is ... goto no_slash_after_all; } } else { ... process ... no_slash_after_all: ... more processing ... } A certain kind of goto usage turns into throwing an exception, perhaps. But that doesn't mean that goto is alive and well, any more than some uses of punched cards being replacable with magnetic disks means that punched cards are alive and well. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From drb at msu.edu Thu May 12 22:43:55 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:43:55 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer Message-ID: <200505130343.j4D3htsO030551@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Mona Lisa prints. The I/O room at MSU's Computer Center had a large image generated by scanning a photo of the painting. A scheme was worked out of which characters (multiples in some cases) were drawn in any given cell to add up to the appropriate darkness. I believe it was actually output to a plotter which took a substantial amount of time to complete the job. I would have guessed most large centers would have had such things. On a more personal note, in the 1985-86 time frame I was working for a software outfit that did real estate systems. The R&D wizard there built hardware which went into standard serial terminals (Esprit 6310's; can't recall if there was ever a version in the TeleVideo 925's) to display 4 bit images of homes. The card worked by going into the video chain of the terminal to overlay images, and into the serial chain to grab bits. It was not intelligent; simply a marble machine which recognized a specific introductory escape sequence and then clocked nibbles into its video ram. The images were taken with Sony cameras which wrote them to 2" floppies. I think the storage may have been analog video, actually. They were then digitized using a video frame grabber board in a standard PC and uploaded to the host. In addition to screen display, we did MLS books with the images integrated, etc. The output was generally done on Printronix P-300 printers, which were dot-addressable. (For those who haven't met one of these machines, they had a shuttle with 132 "pixel" hammers. The shuttle would work from left to right stopping at 8 or so positions. The hammers would print the top row of dots in the characters of the current line, then the paper would move up one "raster" line and the shuttle would run right to left doing the next row. Eventually one row of characters would be completely printed. A P-300 could print about 300 lines per minute. The shuttle and the many print hammers gave the printers a distinctive sound. In addition to the all-points-addressable mode, you could build or buy custom ROMs with special characters in them.) A few of us went into the office one weekend evening shortly after the "Live Aid" concert with a video tape of the show, and grabbed and printed a fair number of images from the performances. The 4-bit graphics made interesting work of lens stars from the stage lighting. De From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 12 22:49:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <004101c55736$96e30cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <004101c55736$96e30cc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200505130352.XAA09246@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So it's nothing to do with stifling your creativity: be as creative > as you like. It's just unlikely that any of us (including you) will > ever know whether your prorams (or at least any of them of > significant size) are correct or not. And this is just as true of people who use such formal methods. Manual verification is as prone to errors as anything else humans do, and automated verification involves programs far too large and complex to be even moderately confident they're bug-free. (Which is not to say that verifiers can't be useful tools. Just that they don't provide the kind of "proof" level of confidence that your implicit contrast implies you think they do.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 12 23:02:01 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:02:01 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer In-Reply-To: <200505130343.j4D3htsO030551@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200505130343.j4D3htsO030551@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <428426B9.1040108@atarimuseum.com> Atari actually cashed in on this capability in the mid 70's with its Compugrah Foto booths: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/arcade/fullsize/compugraph-back.jpg Curt Dennis Boone wrote: >I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Mona Lisa prints. The I/O room >at MSU's Computer Center had a large image generated by scanning a >photo of the painting. A scheme was worked out of which characters >(multiples in some cases) were drawn in any given cell to add up >to the appropriate darkness. I believe it was actually output to a >plotter which took a substantial amount of time to complete the job. >I would have guessed most large centers would have had such things. > >On a more personal note, in the 1985-86 time frame I was working for >a software outfit that did real estate systems. The R&D wizard there >built hardware which went into standard serial terminals (Esprit >6310's; can't recall if there was ever a version in the TeleVideo >925's) to display 4 bit images of homes. The card worked by going >into the video chain of the terminal to overlay images, and into the >serial chain to grab bits. It was not intelligent; simply a marble >machine which recognized a specific introductory escape sequence and >then clocked nibbles into its video ram. The images were taken with >Sony cameras which wrote them to 2" floppies. I think the storage >may have been analog video, actually. They were then digitized using >a video frame grabber board in a standard PC and uploaded to the host. > >In addition to screen display, we did MLS books with the images >integrated, etc. The output was generally done on Printronix P-300 >printers, which were dot-addressable. (For those who haven't >met one of these machines, they had a shuttle with 132 "pixel" >hammers. The shuttle would work from left to right stopping at 8 >or so positions. The hammers would print the top row of dots in >the characters of the current line, then the paper would move up one >"raster" line and the shuttle would run right to left doing the next >row. Eventually one row of characters would be completely printed. >A P-300 could print about 300 lines per minute. The shuttle and the >many print hammers gave the printers a distinctive sound. In addition >to the all-points-addressable mode, you could build or buy custom >ROMs with special characters in them.) > >A few of us went into the office one weekend evening shortly after the >"Live Aid" concert with a video tape of the show, and grabbed and >printed a fair number of images from the performances. The 4-bit >graphics made interesting work of lens stars from the stage lighting. > >De > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 5/12/2005 From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 12 23:02:20 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:02:20 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050512223710.67957.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428426CC.4050809@pacbell.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/12/05, lee davison wrote: > >>>>Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. >> >>>On a 6502 (PET, Apple II...) it's not that deep because of >>>the 1-page stack. ISTR about 5 levels of GOSUBs were possible >>>before you ran the risk of stack overflow, but it might have >>>been as deep as 8. >> >>Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to >>50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. >> >>FOR ... NEXT is the stack hog, you can usually only nest that >>15 deep or less. >> >>With C= BASIC you have lass room as the top 10 bytes or so of >>the stack are reserved for float to ASCII conversion. > > > Maybe that was it... MS BASIC on a C= PET, with subroutine calls and > FOR/NEXT nested deep enough that one _could_ see the bottom. I never > did a GOSUB-only test, but ISTR having to design some stuff with stack > depth in mind (I did a lot of stuff with Interactive Fiction/Adventure > Games in the late 1970s in BASIC, then I learned 6502 assembly ;-) Since we are about vintage computers here, I tried the following on a few emulators and real machines: 10 I=0 20 PRINT I:I=I+1:GOSUB 20 10 I=0 20 FOR J=1 TO 10:I=I+1:PRINT I:GOTO 20 Wang 2200 BASIC: 45 GOSUBs, 54 FOR loops Wang 2200 BASIC-2: 61 GOSUBs, 61 FOR loops Applesoft BASIC: 25 GOSUBs, 11 FOR loops* TRS-80 48K Model III: 9596 GOSUBs, ** HP87-XM BASIC: 255 GOSUBs, ** Sol-20 BASIC/5: 33 GOSUBs, 6 FOR loops Sol-20 Extended BASIC (48K): 11223 GOSUBs, 1978 FOR loops IBM 5120: 20 GOSUBs, *** * Applesoft: The test program for FOR loops didn't fail. I had to nest 11 FOR loops deep to find the limit. ** TRS-80, HP-87: BASIC apparently doesn't allow stacking FOR loops using the same index variable. The program just runs forever, and I didn't feel like attempting hundreds/thousands of nested FOR loops manually. *** IBM 5120: refused to run program and I didn't attempt to nest dozens manually From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 00:22:55 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050512221733.X836@localhost> On Wed, 11 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > Ya know, I gotta disagree... and this is coming from a programmer who made > liberal use of the GOTO statement. I have to agree with you too; GOTO is just another tool in the toolbox. It's useful as hell (eg. error-exit it switch() or whatever). A lot of reaction against excessive GOTOs was from the horrible things early FORTRANs made you do, and macho programmers who stopped learning early. I have to wonder what the cultures of optimization that sprung up around drum machines did too. From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 00:44:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <17027.21852.843000.235660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IG7006OU84GJL45@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <20050510215809.P806@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511074300.04fd6eb0@mail> <20050511112757.G992@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050511170331.056cfe10@mail> <17027.21852.843000.235660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050512222614.H836@localhost> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > John> The inverted syntax of "goto 60 if expression" was another that > John> caught my eye; > > ??? There isn't any such syntax in Algol. Maybe you misread a > statement that had a conditional expression in it -- the Algol > predecessor to what in C is (foo<0) ? 1 : 2 -- but without the > unnecessary different tokens. There are some severe umm let's say non-linearities in the conditional expression evaluation; the algol60 spec "explains" it but I found it extremely hard to follow -- it allows things that are very, very non-obvious 'if if ... then then' type things; clearly not that but things equally weird. I forget and am too lazy to look up. > >> But you have to feel for the poor bastards, trying to work out > >> these issues where you don't even have a character mapping you can > >> rely on. All the quoting/escaping bizarreness, that the unix Algol > >> interpreter a60 supports. Ugh. > > John> One of the aforementioned references points out that Algol > John> preceded ASCII and influenced its development. At one point, > John> they wanted 'do' and other keywords to be their own character > John> (!) so you could have 'do' as a variable name? > > You seem to be talking about APL. Algol 60 has keywords distinct from > variable names, but doesn't say how to implement that. Some > implementations have used quoting, some have used reserved words. In > Algol 68, that issue was addressed explicitly rather than left > unanswered. > > I don't see how Algol 60 had anything to do with ASCII. Certainly the > ASCII character set (never mind the early versions) don't match what > the Algol 60 spec uses -- things like the sign for <= or for boolean > equivalence or "not" didn't show up in standard character sets until > Unicode. The algol designers were very careful here; it's one of the better things they did (though it was also their undoing since it messed up source portability (a holy grail). Algol had *three* formal specifications, I forget what they were called precisely, but in essence: 1. the language description, in Backus-Naur and prose. 2. The reference language (exact phrase). 3. The implemented language (not exact). 1. is obvious. 2 is an "idealized" language with a glyph for each language component; for example: if x < y then begin; ... end; "<" is a unique glyph of course, and one of the now-standard ASCII characters; but Algol specified one for less than, less-than-equal, divide, modulo, multiply, etc, in traditional mathematician culture. It was stated that the glyphs/symbols used had no particular implementation value and represented only their meaning(s) within the language (eg. < means arithmetic less-than). The reference language used these and was referred to as an idealization of an implementation. It was up to the implementors to choose parsable characters/sequences in the local character set (back when every machine had its own character set). I doubt any actual computer had a character code/set with enough unique glyphs to match the reference language; it was assumed that there would be multi-charater mappings (I think). This was very smart. This is how things like "<=" came about. I vaguely remember references somewhere to implementation issues on really small character sets (like ITA2). It was a tough world, they made some good decisions, and some laughably bad ones. From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 00:54:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050512224923.J836@localhost> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Allison wrote: > Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. THat's an understatement! :-) > I'm one of the few that was mostly BASIC and ASM until UCSD P-system > and decided to learn a "structured" language. I was eye opening the > difference coding learned. After that I tried writing basic using > block structure and treating goto and return like Call and JUMP with > better looking results. I can see the effect it had looking at some > of my really old code. > > I agree with an earlier post. BASIC improperly can rot your mind, > it's bad drugs for programmers. I write "BASIC" today -- in PICs. The compilers are often appropriate for the target machine -- a non-orthogonal processor with no real addressing modes, etc. The compiler just generates (not very good) inline code and links in library functions. I write very structured and hopefully readable code in PIC BASIC. I use knowledge of the chip and the compiler to "optimize" (eg. avoid * and / if at all possible (usually). The bottom line is: Programming is programming. You do good work, or shit work, your choice! It's a poor workmammal who blames their tools! (Though around computers there are truly bad tools... :-) From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 00:58:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Algol, Pascal sytax In-Reply-To: <200505121438.HAA15754@floodgap.com> References: <200505121438.HAA15754@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050512225709.A836@localhost> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Because Pascal uses the same rule of semicolons as Algol does. > > I was all set to disagree with you, so I ran it through Turbo Pascal without > the semicolons and ... it worked. I don't doubt that this assertion is true, but the behavior of one compiler doesn't have any bearing on the language definition. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri May 13 01:16:05 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:16:05 +0200 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <200505110804.JAA20293@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200505110804.JAA20293@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1115964965.9572.18.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 09:04 +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > > Most UK televisions outside the really, *really* budget level have RGB > > inputs, and have had for about 15 years... > > The tv in my den here (UK) is a *real* budget 14-inch one, it has SCART > and composite video in. The black and white 5-inch portable I bought > last year (to run my ZX-81) cost about 25 pounds ($45) - that has > composite video in. Yeah, but likely the RGB in isn't wired. Pretty much every TV made in Europe since some time in the 80s has had SCART, but the RGB signal is probably a fairly new thing. -- Tore S Bekkedal From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 13 03:25:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 01:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Gazette Volume 3 Issue 1 Message-ID: VCF Gazette Volume 3, Issue 1 A Newsletter for the Vintage Computer Festival May 12, 2005 Wow! The VCF Gazette marks a milestone as it rolls in to its 3rd year. And boy are we late. Later than usual. Very late. In fact, I'm positive we're later than we've ever been. But my we're busy here at VCF central. Busier than usual. Very busy. In fact, I'm positive we're busier than we've ever been. So there you have it. Anyway, on with the news! In This Issue: VCF 7.0 Wrap Up VCF 7.0 Exhibit Awards and Photo Gallery VCF Midwest "Lite" VCF Inaugurates Long-Term Data Archiving Standard: FutureKeep New VCF Website Features VCF 7.0 Wrap Up --------------- The 7th annual Vintage Computer Festival was held on November 6-7 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. It's pretty much cliche at this point to say it was the best event yet, but it really was! Just ask the 450+ people who attended. The main feature of the VCF this last time around was the Maze War Retrospective hosted by Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn. The authors of Maze War, which is the original "first person shooter" videogame, discussed the development of the game in the early 1970s. The Maze War server was ported to the PC by Ken Harrenstien and a Maze War network of three PCs plus an Imlac PDS-1D (heroically provided by Tom Uban) was installed at the VCF, allowing attendees to experience the original thrill of Maze War. The DigiBarn has created a terrific web page on the DigiBarn website to commemorate this event: http://www.digibarn.com/history/04-VCF7-MazeWar/index.html VCF 7.0 also featured the debut screening of BBS: The Documentary, a multi-part documentary series by Jason Scott of textfiles.com fame. This documentary traces the history of the computer bulletin board system, or BBS, from its origins through to its decline brought on by the rise of the modern Internet. BBS: The Documentary is now available for order and is highly recommended by the VCF: http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/ The exhibits at VCF 7.0 continued their evolution towards ever more elaborate displays, with great skill and creativity being demonstrated by the exhibitors. The next section contains more information about the exhibits and a link to the VCF 7.0 Photo Gallery. We're now looking forward to VCF 8.0 to be held November 5-6. See you there! VCF 7.0 Exhibit Awards and Photo Gallery ---------------------------------------- The VCF 7.0 Exhibition featured another stunning set of exhibits. The creativity of the exhibitors and their dedication to producing displays that brilliantly showcase their prized computers while presenting historical and educational background is simply amazing. For all the hard work that it takes to produce the VCF, the exhibits alone make it worth the effort. And so, we are pleased to present the results of the exhibit awards. Class Awards First, Second and Third Place ribbons are awarded in each of five classes that represent major areas of effort in computer collecting and preservation. Judging is based on a set of criteria including: appearance, condition, originality, authenticity, completeness, and functionality. Additional judging takes into account the breadth of the exhibit by assessing the inclusion of documentation and software. Note that the exhibit categories were re-worked for VCF 7.0 to reflect the evolution in subject matter and presentations that has occured over the past few years. The classes and class winners of each class respectively are as follows: Class A: Microcomputer 1st Place: Bryan Blackburn - Digital Group Computers 2nd Place: Erik Klein - Altair 30th Anniversary 3rd Place: Cameron Kaiser - Secret Weapons of Commodore Live! Class B: Mini, Multi-User, or Larger Computer 1st Place: Pavl Zachary - PDP 11/40 Running Ancient Unix 2nd Place: Bob Fowler - Alpha Microsystems AM-1000 3rd Place: Stephen Jones - SDF Public Access Unix System Class C: PDA, Handheld Computer, or Calculator 1st Place: Fritz Schneider - Curta Calculator 2nd Place: Boris Debic - Handheld Math 3rd Place: Hans Franke - Calculators of Mass Destruction Class D: Home-brew, Kit, or Educational Computer 1st Place: Michael Holley - SWTPC TV Typewriter 2nd Place: Wayne Smith - Tiger Learning Computer 3rd Place: Larry Pezzolo - OSI Superboard Class E: Re-creation, Emulation, or Contemporary Enhancement 1st Place: Tim Robinson - Differential Analyzer 2nd Place: Tim Robbinson - Computing by Steam 3rd Place: Eric Rothfus - Semi-Virtual Diskette Class F: Open/Other 1st Place: Wayne Smith - Bandai Pippin 2nd Place: Michael Holley - Southwest Technical Products Corp. 3rd Place: Larry Anderson - Commodore Gold Special Awards Special Awards are given to exhibits based on various practical and esthetic criteria. These accolades are intended to award exhibits that advance the state of computer collecting and preservation. Best Presentation: Research Bryan Blackburn - Digital Group Computers Best Presentation: Completeness Erik Klein - Altair 30th Anniversary Best Presentation: Display Bryan Blackburn - Digital Group Computers Best Presentation: Originality Pavl Zachary - PDP 11/40 Running Ancient Unix Best Preservation: Restoration Bryan Blackburn - Digital Group Computers Best Preservation: Obscurity Wayne Smith - Bandai Pippin Best Technology: Analog Tim Robinson - Differential Analyzer Best Technology: Non-Electronic Tim Robinson - Computing by Steam Best of Show The Best of Show award determines, based on the best overall score achieved, which exhibit deserves to be singled out for extra special recognition. The VCF 7.0 Best of Show award went to Bryan Blackburn for his Digital Group Computers. Bryan walked away once again with 5 separate awards this year, matching his performance from last year. Congratulations, Bryan! People's Choice Award Finally, the People's Choice Award taps into the pulse of the VCF crowd. Attendees are encouraged to submit a ballot naming their favorite exhibit of the show. The exhibit that attracted the most votes this year was Tim Robinson's Differential Analyzer, a functional differential analyzer modeled after designs by early computing pioneer Vannevar Bush and built entirely out of Meccano parts. I would like to thank and congratulate all VCF 7.0 exhibitors for contributing to yet another excellent exhibition. We've put together a photo gallery of the exhibits to showcase the talents and creativity of the VCF exhibitors: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCF70 We're already looking forward to this year's exhibits. You might want to consider joining in the fun! VCF Midwest "Lite" ------------------ The VCF is introducing the new concept of the VCF "Lite" event. VCF Lite events feature all of the elements of a traditional VCF event (including speakers, exhibitors and vendors) but the event is held on a single day instead of across two days. VCF Midwest 1.0 will be held on Saturday, July 30th at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana. Doors will open at 9:30am, with speakers beginning at 10:00am and exhibits starting at 12:00pm. The event ends at 5:00pm. Admission is $5 per person. Exhibitors and vendors are wanted, so if you want to show off part of your collection or want to sell some of it, register now at the VCF Midwest website at: http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/ Additional VCF Midwest 1.0 information will be posted to the VCF Midwest website in the coming weeks, so get yourself onto the VCF mailing list to be informed of updates as they are announced. You can add yourself to the VCF mailing list here: http://www.vintage.org/maillist.php A separate announcement for VCF Midwest 1.0 with more information about the event will be distributed in the coming days so be on the look-out for that. If you'd like to organize a VCF Lite in your area, please contact Sellam Ismail at . VCF Inaugurates Long-Term Data Archiving Standard: FutureKeep ------------------------------------------------------------- The VCF has lauched a project to create a file format standard for imaging and archiving software from virtually any data media ever devised, from punched cards to DVD-ROM and beyond. In a nutshell, the intent of the standard is to allow for software stored on any type of media to be digitally imaged in a manner that would allow the original media to be reconstructed from the image at which time it might be necessary to do so. The main purpose of this standard is to provide a universally recognized standard for preserving software. Media such as floppy disks and magnetic tape has a limited lifetime. The physical medium will fail over time resulting in data loss. While more durable, software stored on paper-based media such as punched cards and paper tape is also at risk. Even ROM chips are not forever: the bits contained within the silicon will dissipate over time, leaving behind an empty shell. In the absence of a durable, long-term (as in aeons), failure-proof digital storage medium, steps must be taken now to preserve the existing base of software and to ensure it will be available for the benefit of future generations. This standard is being designed to provide a uniform methodology for storing imaged media to facilitate the storage and maintenance of large archives of software. Other uses of the standard will be to provide a singular uniform file format for computer emulators to use as virtual storage devices. The design of the format is still in its initial stages, so if you're interested in being part of this historic development, you can join the committee responsible for devising the standard. Draft outline notes for the standard are available on the project website: http://www.futurekeep.org A mailing list has been created to provide a forum for discussing the development of the standard. For instructions on how to join the mailing list, e-mail project coordinator Sellam Ismail at . New VCF Website Features ------------------------ The VCF is always striving to add useful features to the VCF website. The latest enhancements include a computer history reference library index, a photo gallery, a VCF Gazette browsing library, and an RSS feed. The VCF Library is a new feature which lists hundreds of computer history resources available on books, video and computer media. The list is organized into relevant categories and each entry includes a link to where that resource can be purchased on the web. Most link to Amazon product listings, and any purchase made through links from the VCF Library earns a commission for the VCF, so it's a great way to support the Vintage Computer Festival! The list is constantly being added to as new resources are identified, and we appreciate suggestions for additional resources to add. The library is available on the VCF website at: http://www.vintage.org/library.php The VCF Gazette now has its own page featuring a link to the current issue as well as links providing easy access to all past issues. The VCF Gazette home page is here: http://www.vintage.org/gazette.php The VCF periodically produces photo galleries of VCF events or items and activities the VCF is involved with. All the VCF photo galleries can now be viewed from one convenient location by jumping to the Photo Gallery index: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php We've also installed an RSS News feed. RSS is a mechanism based on XML used for sharing and syndicating news or stories from sites that generate content. The VCF's RSS feed allows VCF fans to syndicate our news. The VCF RSS feed is provided at: http://www.vintage.org/rss.php Our first RSS subscriber is Kevin Savetz's Retro Roundup page, which aggregates classic computer and retro video game news from around the web: http://www.retroroundup.com/ Look for more excellent features to be added to the VCF Website in the near-term future. That wraps it up for this issue of the VCF Gazette! Until next time... Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ This issue of the VCF Gazette can be found online at: http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=g31 The Vintage Computer Festival is a celebration of computers and their history. The VCF Gazette goes out to anyone who subscribed to the VCF mailing list, and is intended to keep those interested in the VCF informed of the latest VCF events and happenings. The VCF Gazette is guaranteed to be published in a somewhat irregular manner, though we will try to maintain a quarterly schedule. If you would like to be removed from the VCF mailing list, and therefore not receive any more issues of the VCF Gazette, visit the following web page: http://www.vintage.org/remove.php P[RE|ER]SE[R]VE[RE] ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 13 03:55:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:55:37 +0000 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <1115964965.9572.18.camel@fortran> References: <200505110804.JAA20293@citadel.metropolis.local> <1115964965.9572.18.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <1115974537.19442.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 08:16 +0200, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Wed, 2005-05-11 at 09:04 +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > > > Most UK televisions outside the really, *really* budget level have RGB > > > inputs, and have had for about 15 years... > > > > The tv in my den here (UK) is a *real* budget 14-inch one, it has SCART > > and composite video in. The black and white 5-inch portable I bought > > last year (to run my ZX-81) cost about 25 pounds ($45) - that has > > composite video in. > Yeah, but likely the RGB in isn't wired. Pretty much every TV made in > Europe since some time in the 80s has had SCART, but the RGB signal is > probably a fairly new thing. Surely it's easier to provide RGB inputs than composite though - to do RGB (and seperate sync inputs) isn't it almost as simple as feeding the signals into the right point of the existing TV circuitry, whereas to cope with composite you'd need circuitry to split the signals out at extra cost? You could well be right though - I'm almost certain that my Domesday setup (which only does video overlay on RGB outputs) wouldn't work with my cheap 14" TV via the SCART connector when I tried it. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 04:18:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 03:18:56 -0600 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512221733.X836@localhost> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050512221733.X836@localhost> Message-ID: <42847100.8030403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > > A lot of reaction against excessive GOTOs was from the horrible > things early FORTRANs made you do, and macho programmers who > stopped learning early. I have to wonder what the cultures of > optimization that sprung up around drum machines did too. Well it has come back to haunt us since random access memory has got replaced by cashe and deep pipelined cpu's. Try writing a loop and see what happens ... No wait a loop has the dreaded GOTO. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri May 13 04:56:37 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:56:37 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 May 2005 14:32:22 EDT." Message-ID: <200505130956.j4D9ubcj031507@mwave.heeltoe.com> liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: >'goto' is still very much alive : only they call it throwing an exception >these days. fresh from the world of lisp & java, I'll claim this is quite an oversimplification. but this isn't the place to explain why. -brad From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 13 08:29:53 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:29:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay Message-ID: <20050513132953.17190.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I'm almost certain that my Domesday setup (which only does > video overlay on RGB outputs) wouldn't work with my cheap > 14" TV via the SCART connector when I tried it. It could be it needs a signal on the switch input to select RGB as opposed to composite in. I remember having to do this on an Amiga RGB to scart lead for my brother's TV. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 13 09:05:07 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:05:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050513132953.17190.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050513132953.17190.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46686.135.196.233.27.1115993107.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> I'm almost certain that my Domesday setup (which only does >> video overlay on RGB outputs) wouldn't work with my cheap >> 14" TV via the SCART connector when I tried it. > > It could be it needs a signal on the switch input to select > RGB as opposed to composite in. I remember having to do this > on an Amiga RGB to scart lead for my brother's TV. When I use my Domesday with an old Matsui TV I have to select the SCART input manually with the TV remote..... cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From zmerch at 30below.com Fri May 13 09:05:17 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:05:17 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <005001c55745$0d576b40$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050513093721.051a8d10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Antonio Carlini may have mentioned these words: >John Hogerhuis wrote: > > Agreed, but nor should anyone really care about provable > > correctness, right? Engineering is about making things that > > are practically useful, i.e. "good enough"-- we're not > > designing stained glass windows for the Church of Reason, > > we're simply making and maintaining tools to solve todays > > problems more efficiently than if those tools were not > > available. > >Certainly we should not immediately drop our coding sticks >and not touch them again until we _know_ we have attained >perfection. But I disagree strongly that we should not strive >to reach that goal. Couple of things: 1) In a few instances, we should pick up those "coding sticks" and beat the living *$&#^@~( out of a few people who should have never been allowed to code in the first place... ;^> 2) Until we're all clones from a single gene base (and believe you me, you don't wanna be *my* clone!!!), the goal of "perfection" is unattainable. I'm not saying that we shouldn't *try*, for that will give us tools better than what we have now -- but absolute perfection will not be the same for all people. Oh, and 3) If "perfection" actually did exist, I doubt any one of us on this list could afford it... ;-) >If we had a mechanism now to create provably correct >programs (that met specifications that we could be >sure meant what we intended them to mean) - and >further assuming that use of such a mechanism did >not impose excessive cost or efficiency burdens etc, - >then I think we would have to use them for all >serious programs. Gonna make sure I eat my vegetables, too? ;-) What happens when the specification itself is wrong, or ambiguous, or someone writes a virus that infects the "perfection checker" program? I'd put a lot more faith into 10 people looking over each other's shoulders than 1 computer program. >Given the choice, I'd prefer the programs I use to >work perfectly rather than imperfectly - and I'd prefer >to spend the time I program at work creating correct >code rather than being dragged back to fix yesterday's >mistake. > >I'm more than willing to trade an occasional goto for that! What happens if the only way to attain "programming perfection" is through the use of gotos? ;-P It's a grumpy Friday the 13th... I'll crawl back into my hole now. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 10:13:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stamps! Message-ID: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> Way OT! So sue me. Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I think. From allain at panix.com Fri May 13 10:20:39 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:20:39 -0400 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer References: <200505121703.j4CH3mPv020763@dewey.classiccmp.org><3.0.6.32.20050512125123.00ebf5f0@pop.onemain.com> Message-ID: <01b801c557cf$52cc61a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Does anything similar currently exist? On this thread you are getting excellent descriptions of the history of the situation. To simulate dot matrix in the current environment I would set resolution of about 80 x 5 = 400 by 66 x 7 = 462 and then downcast to black and white via the method referred to as "Error Diffusion". Just tried this... > From a distance, the "picture" quality was striking. Yup, same here. John A. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri May 13 11:29:23 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:23 -0700 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com> <001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: There was a business in Beaverton who sold a simple board to run both 5 1/4" drives and 8 inch drives on the Xerox 820 at the same time. Evergreen technology??? Closed about 1990. I seem to remember it wasn't hard to build. If anyone comes uiop with the info I would be intersted too as I still have an 820. Paxton Astoria, OR On 5/12/05, SP wrote: > > Hi ! > > > I'm relatively sure there is nothing significant in the floppies unit box > > other than the disk drives and power supply. In the mid-80's I obtained > an > > 820-II motherboard, and simply soldered "D" connector pins onto a floppy > drive > > ribon cable, to connect a pair of 8" floppies to the thing, making up > > my first CP/M computer system. The 8" drives were cheap and common then, > > but the ones in the Xerox box and the Xerox cable were not so common. > > I confess my absolute inutility in these matters, but never is too late to > begin > the training. Do you mean one complete male D connector or D-Sub ? > There is some order in the soldering of the pins ? > > I have three or four shugart 8" units but never tried to put them to work. > Mostly > cause of the fault of one power supply. If someone knows of the specs > of one Power supply for these floppy units, I should agree to get it. > > > Both are possible. If you obtain and attach 8" drives, I can send you a > > bootable floppy, once I get my system up and running again. If someone > > provides more info about 5.25" drives, maybe I'll be able to get them > > working on my 820-II. Better yet, maybe someone knows of more modern > > storage alternatives that could be made to work with these. > > Mmm... I should like to know if one 5'25 unit like the used for the PS/2 > (with 37 pin) > could work connected to one Xerox 820. It was one 360k unit, I think. And I > have > one. > > Another option, if there is no cabling problem, would be to use a couple of > IBM PC 5.25 floppy units, arranging one ribbon floppy cable in the same that > you > used with the 8" inch. I suppose would be easy to use one program to copy > the "standard" CP/M image available in some websites (prepared for the Xerox > 820) > to 5.25 floppies. > > Thanks and Greetings > Sergio > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri May 13 12:31:31 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:31:31 -0700 Subject: was stamps!... is Feynman Unveiling and JPL Open house References: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> Message-ID: <4284E473.153230C1@msm.umr.edu> For those interested Feynman stamp to be unveiled at CalTech at public event 5/20/2005 JPL Open house 5/14/2005 and 5/15/2005 Tom Jennings wrote: > Way OT! So sue me. > > Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, > Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I > think. Feynman unveiling http://events.caltech.edu/events/event-2361.html JPL Open House http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2005-067 From spc at conman.org Fri May 13 12:38:51 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: from "John Hogerhuis" at May 12, 2005 06:45:45 PM Message-ID: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great John Hogerhuis once stated: > > Today all you can do is trade a specification language for a > programming language. I think the programming language is the most > succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. > Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. You > cannot say anything in a programming language that cannot be done. > This is more clear on a small language like C or Forth or assembler > than it is in something like Perl or even C++. But true nonetheless > for those languages as well. So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of int i = 0; printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); (That's C code, just to let you know). -spc (Who knows the answer and is driving you towards the murkier parts of the C specification ... ) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 12:47:42 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:47:42 +0100 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <000f01c557e3$de013160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great John Hogerhuis once stated: >> programming language. I think the programming language is the >> most succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language > So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the > result of > > int i = 0; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); Your computer morphs into the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy. If you're lucky. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From bpope at wordstock.com Fri May 13 12:41:26 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:41:26 -0400 (edt) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at May 13, 05 01:38:51 pm Message-ID: <200505131741.NAA08959@wordstock.com> And thusly Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner spake: > > So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > int i = 0; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > IIRC it should output: 2 1 0 Cheers, Bryan Pope From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 13 12:58:12 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505131741.NAA08959@wordstock.com> References: <200505131741.NAA08959@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >> > > IIRC it should output: > > 2 1 0 Not on my system: 0 1 2 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spedraja at ono.com Fri May 13 13:00:13 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:00:13 +0200 Subject: Xerox 820 References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com><003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER><20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com><001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <000e01c557e5$9d056170$1502a8c0@ACER> > There was a business in Beaverton who sold a simple board to run > both 5 1/4" drives and 8 inch drives on the Xerox 820 at the same > time. Uh... Four floppies? > If anyone comes uiop with the info I would be intersted too as I still > have an 820. Me too :-) Regards Sergio From bpope at wordstock.com Fri May 13 13:07:46 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:07:46 -0400 (edt) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: from "Mike Loewen" at May 13, 05 01:58:12 pm Message-ID: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > > On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > >> > >> int i = 0; > >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > >> > > > > IIRC it should output: > > > > 2 1 0 > > Not on my system: > > 0 1 2 > I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 0"... I am using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. Cheers, Bryan Pope From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Fri May 13 13:16:53 2005 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:16:53 -0700 Subject: stamps! In-Reply-To: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> References: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> Message-ID: <4284EF15.7090905@wavecable.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > Way OT! So sue me. > > Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, > Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I > think. What? No Grace Hopper or Ada Byron? What manner of blasphemy is this? :D From spc at conman.org Fri May 13 13:24:20 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at May 13, 2005 02:07:46 PM Message-ID: <20050513182421.7DBBA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > > > > On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > >> > > >> int i = 0; > > >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > > >> > > > > > > IIRC it should output: > > > > > > 2 1 0 > > > > Not on my system: > > > > 0 1 2 > > > > I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 0"... I am > using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. I was replying to this statement from John Hogerhuis: > I think the programming language is the most > succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. > Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. And this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get across (and so far, no one has stated the correct answer, yet both Bryan's and Mike's compilers have produced a correct answer. To add fuel to the conversation, the IRIX 4.0.5 C compiler would produce 0 0 0 which is also a correct answer. -spc (On topic, since this applies to C89 ... ) From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 13 13:24:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:24:43 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bryan" == Bryan Pope writes: Bryan> And thusly Mike Loewen spake: >> On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the >> result of >> >> >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >> >> >> > >> > IIRC it should output: >> > >> > 2 1 0 >> >> Not on my system: >> >> 0 1 2 >> Bryan> I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 Bryan> 0"... I am using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. I think the answer is that it should display 3 numbers, each in the range 0 to 2. GCC produces 2 1 0 on x86 and 0 1 2 on MIPS. paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 13 13:26:33 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Mike Loewen spake: >> >> On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: >> >>>> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of >>>> >>>> int i = 0; >>>> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >>>> >>> >>> IIRC it should output: >>> >>> 2 1 0 >> >> Not on my system: >> >> 0 1 2 >> > > I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 0"... I am > using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. Interesting. Mine was gcc 3.42 under Solaris 2.9 (Ultra 10). Same thing under AIX 4.3.3, with IBM's cc. However, under Linux (Redhat 7.1) on an x86 platform with gcc 2.96, it gave "2 1 0". Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 13 13:30:35 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:30:35 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup: hotrod kaypro [Austin, TX, USA] Message-ID: <4284F24B.3070809@pacbell.net> A couple years ago I picked up a modified kaypro II at one of the monthly the livermore, california swap meets. Here is my best description of it. Start with a Kaypro II. It has a modification to run at 5.0 MHz as well as the standard 2.5 MHz. One of the floppies has been replaced with a hard drive, partitioned as drives A/B/C/D. The remaining floppy is drive E. I have the original floppy that was displaced by the hard drive. It has been modified to have a fan. It has a RAM disk installed in it as well. It sports the Advent Turborom. The only problem with it is that partition A has some bad sectors. I when you boot or any time you do a dir operation on drive A, you get a message about a bad sector. In fact, IIRC, you get it nine times. Then you get the A0> prompt and everything else is fine. Drives B/C/D are OK. Drive A, however, is missing any kind of program (such as the stock CP/M utilities like STAT, PIP, etc) since the dir is unreadable. Drives B/C/D have a few programs and files, but nothing very interesting. In those past two years, I've replaced the screetching fan (which cost me as much as the machine did originally!), and picked up a number of kaypro manuals here and there. Don Maslin, RIP, sent me a teledisk image of a kaypro boot disk, which I was able to regenerate and indeed, I can run programs off of the floppy. What I'm missing is the time and desire to figure out how to get the A drive in a runnable state. After two years of doing not much with it, it is time for it to find a more caring owner. The machine and the original 2nd floppy and the manuals and boot disk are free to anybody who cares to come and pick them up in Austin, Texas. I have pictures of it and its innards if you want to preview it. From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 13 13:30:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/12/05, John Foust wrote: > > At 12:56 PM 5/12/2005, Allison wrote: > > >Often reading it is the challenge. Goto within a subroutine > > >usually reads fine. Its when there are subs within Loop/whiles > > >get mixed with gotos. > > > > Even BASIC has a call stack that will eventually overflow. > > On a 6502 (PET, Apple II...) it's not that deep because of the 1-page > stack. ISTR about 5 levels of GOSUBs were possible before you ran the > risk of stack overflow, but it might have been as deep as 8. I'm pretty sure Applesoft BASIC had up to 16 levels. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Fri May 13 13:28:27 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:28:27 -0400 (edt) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513182421.7DBBA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at May 13, 05 02:24:20 pm Message-ID: <200505131828.OAA18892@wordstock.com> And thusly Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner spake: > > It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > > > And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > > > > > > On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > > > >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > > >> > > > >> int i = 0; > > > >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > > > >> > > > > > > > > IIRC it should output: > > > > > > > > 2 1 0 > > > > > > Not on my system: > > > > > > 0 1 2 > > > > > > > I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 0"... I am > > using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. > > I was replying to this statement from John Hogerhuis: > > > I think the programming language is the most > > succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. > > Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. > > And this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get across (and so > far, no one has stated the correct answer, yet both Bryan's and Mike's > compilers have produced a correct answer. To add fuel to the conversation, > the IRIX 4.0.5 C compiler would produce > > 0 0 0 > > which is also a correct answer. > Now I am going to have to find my K & R book... I believe it says that the order for a printf it right to left and since the "++" is after the variable, the increment gets done after the value of retrieved. Cheers, Bryan Pope From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 13:40:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 11:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505131840.LAA19321@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Bryan" == Bryan Pope writes: > > Bryan> And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > >> On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> > >> >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the > >> result of > >> >> > >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > >> >> > >> > > >> > IIRC it should output: > >> > > >> > 2 1 0 > >> > >> Not on my system: > >> > >> 0 1 2 > >> > > Bryan> I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 > Bryan> 0"... I am using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. > >I think the answer is that it should display 3 numbers, each in the >range 0 to 2. > >GCC produces 2 1 0 on x86 and 0 1 2 on MIPS. Hi I can't help but put another plug in here. This is why I like languages like Forth and LISP that specify explicit execution order and don't leave it to some compiler writer to arbitrarily choose. It looks like spc's test is part of a compliance test. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri May 13 13:50:08 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:50:08 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050513185006.QKSB16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of >> >> >> >> int i = 0; >> >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >> >> >> > >> > IIRC it should output: >> > >> > 2 1 0 >> >> Not on my system: >> >> 0 1 2 >> > >I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 0"... I am >using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. This is three modifications to the same Lvalue within the same sequence interval - it is therefore possible for the increment operations to be performed in any order, and even deferred to just before the next sequence point, so results could be: 2 1 0 0 1 2 (or any other ordering of these numbers) 0 0 0 The only thing you can be *reasonably certain of* (see below) is that at least one of the "results" must be < 1, at least two of the results must be < 2, and all three results must be < 3 (since each operation must return the value prior to the increment, and only one increment is associated with each operation). So, although unlikely that the compiler would defer two operations and not another, it is potentially possible that the "results" could also be 0 0 1, 0 0 2, 0 1 1 etc. (in any order). Officially this type of code (that which modifies an Lvalue multiple times within the same sequence interval) invokes "undefined behaviour", which means that the compiler can do "anything" - although highly unlikely, the compiler can happily return 6 6 6 in this case, and leave the value of i at 31415 (or anything else) ... and be performing in a perfectly legal sense - undefined operation is exactly that. The function performed is not defined by the standard. On other words, it's not valid 'C' (although it is syntactically correct, and most compilers will accept it without a diagnostic). I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is a inherently very definitive and detailed specification). Regards, Dave (In a way this is topical for me since my compiler is 17 years old this year) -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri May 13 13:01:51 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:01:51 +0100 Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 May 2005 14:29:53 BST." <20050513132953.17190.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200505131801.TAA21083@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, lee davison said: > > I'm almost certain that my Domesday setup (which only does > > video overlay on RGB outputs) wouldn't work with my cheap > > 14" TV via the SCART connector when I tried it. > > It could be it needs a signal on the switch input to select > RGB as opposed to composite in. I remember having to do this > on an Amiga RGB to scart lead for my brother's TV. > It's possible, all my tvs, including my battered old Sony, getting on for 20 yrs old, automatically switch to rgb if there is a voltage on the correct SCART pin (pin 8??) (but will switch to tv or the composite video, and audio, phono sockets from the remote). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri May 13 13:58:29 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:58:29 -0400 Subject: More photos of odd find and AES computer? In-Reply-To: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200505131458.30751.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On April 28, 2005 3:59 pm, Mike wrote: > Approximately 5' x 1' aluminum sides > inside there are 5 sets of 16 fan folded plates, All the connectors come > off the one end. > > pictures here > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000165.JPG > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000166.JPG > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000167.JPG > > Is it of any use as one peice or should I separate out the fan folded > plates? Well I took off the side panels http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000168.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000169.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000170.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000171.JPG Todays mystery http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000172.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000173.JPG it came with several boxes of AES labeled disks and schematics http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000174.JPG a pair of international terminals (adm-31) and boxes of parts (zilog super 8, fairchild proto kits, 44.3750 crystals, 5.25" and 3.5" shugart drives stepper motors,....) -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri May 13 14:03:00 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:03:00 -0400 Subject: More photos of odd find and AES computer? correction In-Reply-To: <200505131458.30751.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200505131458.30751.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200505131503.01479.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On May 13, 2005 2:58 pm, Mike wrote: > On April 28, 2005 3:59 pm, Mike wrote: > > Approximately 5' x 1' aluminum sides > > inside there are 5 sets of 16 fan folded plates, All the connectors come > > off the one end. > > > > pictures here > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000165.JPG > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000166.JPG > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000167.JPG > > > > Is it of any use as one peice or should I separate out the fan folded > > plates? the photos shoudl be jpg not JPG Well I took off the side panels http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000168.jpg http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000169.jpg http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000170.jpg http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000171.jpg Todays mystery http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000172.jpg http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000173.jpg it came with several boxes of AES labeled disks and schematics http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000174.jpg a pair of international terminals (adm-31) and boxes of parts (zilog super 8, fairchild proto kits, 44.3750 crystals, 5.25" and 3.5" shugart drives stepper motors,....) -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From news at computercollector.com Fri May 13 14:08:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:08:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? Message-ID: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> >From the email list of the NJ Antique Radio Club: ------------------ Tonight, Friday May 13th, the Tonight Show will feature a message sending/receiving contest between a cell phone text messaging team and a Morse code team. The Morse code team will consist of Chip Margelli, K7JA and Ken Miller, K6CTW. The Tonight Show people called the store yesterday to see if we could come up with two fast Morse operators. Chip and Ken does a lot of contests and DXpeditions. Joe Drago, props manager for the show is KF6OCP. ------------------- Evan speaking again: am I just out of the loop on radio collector terms -- do they have something called the "Tonight Show" -- or do ya'll expect they mean the ACTUAL show with Jay Leno? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vrs at msn.com Fri May 13 14:11:51 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:11:51 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050513185006.QKSB16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: From: "Dave Dunfield" > So, although unlikely that the compiler would defer two operations and not > another, it is potentially possible that the "results" could also be 0 0 1, > 0 0 2, 0 1 1 etc. (in any order). Agreed. > Officially this type of code (that which modifies an Lvalue multiple times > within the same sequence interval) invokes "undefined behaviour", which > means that the compiler can do "anything" - although highly unlikely, the > compiler can happily return 6 6 6 in this case, and leave the value of i at > 31415 (or anything else) ... and be performing in a perfectly legal sense > - undefined operation is exactly that. The function performed is not defined > by the standard. I think the functions to be performed are defined, and only their order is undefined. > On other words, it's not valid 'C' (although it is syntactically correct, and > most compilers will accept it without a diagnostic). Which would make this an overstatement. I think it is perfectly valid C, and the compiler has (after much deliberation) been allowed to generate the most efficient code. > I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is a > inherently very definitive and detailed specification). I thought the point was that, at the margins, the "valid program" is *not* as detailed a specification as was claimed/expected. (Though I still don't know of anything more detailed. In fact, I think most programs are over-specifications of the desired behavior. That is, they require a lot of specific behavior that is actually unimportant to the correct result.) Vince From spc at conman.org Fri May 13 14:14:37 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513185006.QKSB16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at May 13, 2005 02:50:08 PM Message-ID: <20050513191438.3F8FC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Dave Dunfield once stated: > > >> >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > >> >> > >> >> int i = 0; > >> >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > >> >> > > Officially this type of code (that which modifies an Lvalue multiple times > within the same sequence interval) invokes "undefined behaviour", which > means that the compiler can do "anything" - although highly unlikely, the > compiler can happily return 6 6 6 in this case, and leave the value of i at > 31415 (or anything else) ... and be performing in a perfectly legal sense > - undefined operation is exactly that. The function performed is not defined > by the standard. *Ding ding ding* we have a winner! > On other words, it's not valid 'C' (although it is syntactically correct, and > most compilers will accept it without a diagnostic). At least the later version of GCC pick up on it: [spc]tech1:/tmp>gcc --version gcc (GCC) 3.4.3 20041212 (Red Hat 3.4.3-9.EL4) Copyright (C) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. [spc]tech1:/tmp>gcc -Wall -ansi -pedantic -c t.c t.c: In function `main': t.c:8: warning: operation on `i' may be undefined t.c:8: warning: operation on `i' may be undefined [spc]tech1:/tmp> > I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is a > inherently very definitive and detailed specification). What I was commenting on was this statement by John Hogerhuis: > I think the programming language is the most > succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. > Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. Which really depends upon the language. -spc (And C leaves some stuff underspecified like this to help compiler writers wring performance out of compiled code ... ) From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri May 13 14:17:30 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:17:30 +0100 Subject: OT: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? In-Reply-To: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <26c11a64050513121771a9de15@mail.gmail.com> On 5/13/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > >From the email list of the NJ Antique Radio Club: > > ------------------ > > Tonight, Friday May 13th, the Tonight Show will feature a message > sending/receiving contest between a cell phone text messaging team and > a Morse code team. > > The Morse code team will consist of Chip Margelli, K7JA and Ken Miller, > K6CTW. The Tonight Show people called the store yesterday to see if we could > come up with two fast Morse operators. Chip and Ken does a lot of contests > and DXpeditions. Joe Drago, props manager for the show is > KF6OCP. > > ------------------- > > Evan speaking again: am I just out of the loop on radio collector terms -- > do they have something called the "Tonight Show" -- or do ya'll expect they > mean the ACTUAL show with Jay Leno? > I read this while back : http://engadget.com/entry/1234000463042528/ I guess they must be trying to replicate it, sounds like a tonight show sort of thing. Dan From spc at conman.org Fri May 13 14:21:19 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505131828.OAA18892@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at May 13, 2005 02:28:27 PM Message-ID: <20050513192119.99C4873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > And thusly Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner spake: > > > > And this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get across (and so > > far, no one has stated the correct answer, yet both Bryan's and Mike's > > compilers have produced a correct answer. To add fuel to the conversation, > > the IRIX 4.0.5 C compiler would produce > > > > 0 0 0 > > > > which is also a correct answer. > > > > Now I am going to have to find my K & R book... I believe it says that > the order for a printf it right to left and since the "++" is after the > variable, the increment gets done after the value of retrieved. The order of evaluation of parameters to a function go right to left (due that functions can received a variable number of arguments, and *most* implementations pass parameters on the stack (used to save return addresses) it makes things consistent if you go right to left and have the return address always in the same place on the stack when a function is called---did that make sense?), *but* the writeback of the post-increment (x++) can be held until the end of a sequence point (or statement, it's been a while since I knew the actual details, since I know better than to write such code 8-). Just one of the murkier points of C. -spc (Also, bare 'char' declarations can be signed or unsigned) From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri May 13 14:22:46 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:22:46 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513182421.7DBBA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: Sean 'Captain Napalm'Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > > > And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > > > > > > On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > > > >> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is > the result of > > > >> > > > >> int i = 0; > > > >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > > > >> > > > > > > > > IIRC it should output: > > > > > > > > 2 1 0 > > > > > > Not on my system: > > > > > > 0 1 2 > > > > > > > I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 > 0"... I am > > using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. > > To add fuel to the conversation, > the IRIX 4.0.5 C compiler would produce > > 0 0 0 > > which is also a correct answer. For those of you playing the home version of the game... It entirely depends on the definition of an "execution unit" which is left up to the compiler vendor. From jhoger at gmail.com Fri May 13 14:42:59 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:42:59 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: Point taken; my first guess was 0 0 0, but it is apparently left ambiguous by the standards committee. I did use the term "almost always" to hedge, but still, you're right. Nevertheless, for any given compiler there is only one interpretation. So I hereby clarify my statement to say that programming languages as implemented by actual compilers or interpreters are the most succinct, clear and unambigious specification languages imaginable. To another poster's point about "overspecification," I guess that's true. So? That's what comments and thoughtful use of identifiers is for. Sorry my first couple of posts on the list are to OT threads. I'll try to do better in the future :-) -- John. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 13 14:48:35 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:48:35 -0400 Subject: stamps! References: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> <4284EF15.7090905@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <001501c557f4$c070c5a0$985d1941@game> How can they leave the father of the internet out (Al Gore). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scarletdown" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:16 PM Subject: Re: stamps! > Tom Jennings wrote: > > Way OT! So sue me. > > > > Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, > > Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I > > think. > > What? No Grace Hopper or Ada Byron? What manner of blasphemy is > this? :D From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri May 13 14:50:14 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:50:14 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050513195013.RISH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Officially this type of code (that which modifies an Lvalue multiple times >> within the same sequence interval) invokes "undefined behaviour", which >> means that the compiler can do "anything" - although highly unlikely, the >> compiler can happily return 6 6 6 in this case, and leave the value of i >> at 31415 (or anything else) ... and be performing in a perfectly legal sense >> - undefined operation is exactly that. The function performed is not >> defined by the standard. > >I think the functions to be performed are defined, and only their order is >undefined. Thats is the expected result, however since we are performing multiple modifications to an Lvalue within one sequence interval, the behaviour is "undefined" according to the C standard - this means that "anything goes", and there is no guarantee that it will be the expected result, or even one of several expected results (although this will be almost always the case). Although highly unlikely that the compiler writer would go to lengths to detect this happening and produce non-intuitive results, other factors in the compilation process might cause results you didn't expect - for example, a compiler may defer the increments until the next sequence point, and just do a single addition of 3 - a simple optimization, allowed by the definition of the language, but it would cause the three intermediate results to be 0 0 0 - not what you expected (as described above), yet perfectly reasonable to a compiler writer. This is perfectly legal in this case because the effect of the '++' is a side effect, and does not have to be applied until the next sequence point. >> On other words, it's not valid 'C' (although it is syntactically correct, >> and most compilers will accept it without a diagnostic). > >Which would make this an overstatement. I think it is perfectly valid C, >and the compiler has (after much deliberation) been allowed to generate the >most efficient code. It is not a valid conforming C program (or fragment thereof). Any C program which relies on undefined behaviour is non-conforming. This does not mean that it doesn't work, or even that it does not happen to do what you expect - it does mean that it is not guaranteed by the C standard to do what you expect (or any particular thing). Sometimes a compiler may choose one particular approach over another for the sake of efficency, however often the exact ordering of operations performed within sequence points have more to do with details of the compiler architecture and not necessarily in a given case to do with efficiency. >> I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is >> a inherently very definitive and detailed specification). > >I thought the point was that, at the margins, the "valid program" is *not* >as detailed a specification as was claimed/expected. (Though I still don't >know of anything more detailed. In fact, I think most programs are >over-specifications of the desired behavior. That is, they require a lot of >specific behavior that is actually unimportant to the correct result.) IIRC the original posters point was as I stated (more or less), and it was in a followup that someone contrived an example of how to use undefined behaviour to make a specific program which was non-deterministic (at least between various compilers). In any case, it doesn't matter - there is no reason to invoke undefined behaviour in your program. If you wish to print the value of i, i+1 and i+2 and leave i advance by three, use: printf("%d %d %d", i, i+1, i+2); i += 3; Your program will now be deterministic across all conforming implementations. Now, tell me what will be printed: int i = 0; i = i++; printf("%d\n", i); Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 13 14:54:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:54:59 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <17029.1555.922646.540805@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Hogerhuis writes: John> Point taken; my first guess was 0 0 0, but it is apparently John> left ambiguous by the standards committee. I did use the term John> "almost always" to hedge, but still, you're right. Actually, I don't think the example was "ambiguous". It's "undefined" which is actually a term with a precise meaning. So you were right -- a program is a precise statement. But for some programs, that precise statement doesn't define just one possible outcome. A number of programming languages intentionally make certain things unspecified, or undefined -- the reason for doing that is to give implementations more choices and allow more efficient implementation. The sample program that started this discussion is one example. C isn't the only language that does this; Algol 68 is another. For example, it quite explicitly and intentionally says that it's unspecified whether the left or the right side of + (or neither) is evaluated first. John> Nevertheless, for any given compiler there is only one John> interpretation. So I hereby clarify my statement to say that John> programming languages as implemented by actual compilers or John> interpreters are the most succinct, clear and unambigious John> specification languages imaginable. Not true. For example, you may have a program in which several things happen in an order that depends on timing, or interrupts, or things like that; if so, you may not get the same answer when you run it twice. Embedded systems programmers are painfully familiar with this. To use Algol 68 as an example again: int i := 0; int j := (i := i+1) + (i := i+1) (which in C could be written as: j=(++i)+(++i) ) On completion, j might be 1 or 2, and i might be 1 or 2 -- and in implementations that take advantage of paralellism, the answer might change from run to run. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 13 14:58:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:58:33 -0400 Subject: stamps! In-Reply-To: <001501c557f4$c070c5a0$985d1941@game> References: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> <4284EF15.7090905@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050513155833.009989e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> ROFL! They're saving his picture for the idiot of the decade series. Joe At 03:48 PM 5/13/05 -0400, you wrote: >How can they leave the father of the internet out (Al Gore). > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scarletdown" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 2:16 PM >Subject: Re: stamps! > > >> Tom Jennings wrote: >> > Way OT! So sue me. >> > >> > Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, >> > Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I >> > think. >> >> What? No Grace Hopper or Ada Byron? What manner of blasphemy is >> this? :D > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri May 13 15:08:29 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:08:29 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513195013.RISH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: Dave Dunfield wrote: > Now, tell me what will be printed: > > int i = 0; > i = i++; > printf("%d\n", i); Again, it depends on the compiler vendor's definition of an execution unit (maybe I'm using old terminology here?). If the vendor says that the sub-expression evaluation is an execution unit, then i will evaluate to 0, the incrementation operator will be honored at the end of the execution unit (i now 1) then the result of the previous evaluation will be stored in i, setting i back to 0, the value it will have at the printf. If the vendor says that the assignment is an execution unit, then i will evaluate to 0, 0 will be stored back into i, then the incrementation operator will be honored at the end of the execution unit, resulting in i being 1 at the printf. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri May 13 15:11:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:11:30 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050513201129.RPTE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is a >> inherently very definitive and detailed specification). > > What I was commenting on was this statement by John Hogerhuis: > >> I think the programming language is the most >> succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. >> Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. > > Which really depends upon the language. I agree with his statement - however in a public forum, one needs to add some fire resistant padding like "programming language when properly used" or "a valid program". C like many languages (including FORTH :-) has loopholes where one can create program which invoke undefined behaviour, however these constructs generally exist in the real world only at the hand of someone very new to the language, or intentially contriving an "example". Generally speaking, a programming language is more succinct, clear and unambiguous than many other forms of abstraction - the fact that it is possible to abuse it to other ends in specific cases does not invalidate that claim. > -spc (And C leaves some stuff underspecified like this to help compiler > writers wring performance out of compiled code ... ) and for historical reasons. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri May 13 15:11:33 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:11:33 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050513201132.RPTS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 12:42 13/05/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Point taken; my first guess was 0 0 0, but it is apparently left >ambiguous by the standards committee. I did use the term "almost >always" to hedge, but still, you're right. > >Nevertheless, for any given compiler there is only one interpretation. >So I hereby clarify my statement to say that programming languages as >implemented by actual compilers or interpreters are the most succinct, >clear and unambigious specification languages imaginable. Now I disagree with you - if you rely on a particular implementations handling of undefined behaviour, your abstraction is no longer clear or unambiguous - in fact, quite the opposite... The only correction to be made to your original statement, is that the programming language must be used correctly - an idea that I automatically assumed from the beginning, hence I originally had nothing to add to it. >To another poster's point about "overspecification," I guess that's >true. So? That's what comments and thoughtful use of identifiers is >for. ... and avoid undefined bahaviour ... >Sorry my first couple of posts on the list are to OT threads. I'll try >to do better in the future :-) [I've seen worst OT go on a lot longer :-] but yeah - this is getting to far away from where we should be - time to go down to the basement and blink some lights! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jhoger at gmail.com Fri May 13 15:22:22 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:22:22 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17029.1555.922646.540805@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> <17029.1555.922646.540805@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 5/13/05, Paul Koning wrote: it > twice. Embedded systems programmers are painfully familiar with this. Well I don't know how painful I've found it (as an embedded systems programmer). An interrupt is just another event source, albeit one that must be handled with kid gloves. Your program will follow different paths depending on the events inputs to it. Just because you don't understand what has happened if you do a poor job on your interrupt handler doesn't mean that the outcome isn't completely predictable based on analysis of the code and understanding how the machine works. I have heard of systems where a randomness is allowed in: for example, cases where FPGAs + genetic programming are used to evolve an algorithm. It turns out that this can work, but unless you take special measures you will end up with strange dependencies on noise from the power source, etc. -- John. From jhoger at gmail.com Fri May 13 15:59:13 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:59:13 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513201132.RPTS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050513201132.RPTS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On 5/13/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Now I disagree with you - if you rely on a particular implementations > handling of undefined behaviour, your abstraction is no longer clear > or unambiguous - in fact, quite the opposite... > > The only correction to be made to your original statement, is that > the programming language must be used correctly - an idea that I > automatically assumed from the beginning, hence I originally had > nothing to add to it. > Well yeah, I'll buy that... there's usually no good reason to make dependencies on implementation dependent behavior. I'd make exception for areas where standards committees don't define something just because they can't get squabbling vendors to agree... SQL standard comes to mind... last version I looked at (a long time ago) couldn't come to a standard 'date' type. Also some languages like Forth have a culture of extending the language and room must be made for differing implementations of even the same words. All I was saying is that implementation dependent behavior is real as opposed to abstract so you can determine exactly what any given line of code will do as opposed to a dodgy/out-of-date specification or design document. -- John. From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Fri May 13 16:10:13 2005 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stamps and epay auction In-Reply-To: <200505131700.j4DH0glQ033427@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505131700.j4DH0glQ033427@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Whoa dude, how could you forget J. Willard Gibbs? I know, brain entropy. Available in post offices "nationwide" (offer only good in the US) Meanwhile, back at epay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5196808330&rd=1 He's right --- it's a Alto Hawley mouse. The boards I recognize are the Alto CRAM board and also the Alto MOS memory board. The rest of the boards are wirewrap prototypes of something, but what is the question. And, the price is only $2K-$1.01; what a bargain. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri May 13 16:16:33 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:16:33 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050513201132.RPTS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200505131416.33591.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 May 2005 13:59, John Hogerhuis wrote: > On 5/13/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Now I disagree with you - if you rely on a particular implementations > > handling of undefined behaviour, your abstraction is no longer clear > > or unambiguous - in fact, quite the opposite... > > > > The only correction to be made to your original statement, is that > > the programming language must be used correctly - an idea that I > > automatically assumed from the beginning, hence I originally had > > nothing to add to it. > > Well yeah, I'll buy that... there's usually no good reason to make > dependencies on implementation dependent behavior. I'd make exception > for areas where standards committees don't define something just > because they can't get squabbling vendors to agree... SQL standard > comes to mind... last version I looked at (a long time ago) couldn't > come to a standard 'date' type. Also some languages like Forth have a > culture of extending the language and room must be made for differing > implementations of even the same words. > > All I was saying is that implementation dependent behavior is real as > opposed to abstract so you can determine exactly what any given line > of code will do as opposed to a dodgy/out-of-date specification or > design document. In K&R's "THE C PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE", 1978, section 2.12 "Precedence and Order of Evaluation" is a discussion of compilers generating different answers depending on interpretation (side effects). The first sentence in the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that writing code which depends on order of evaluation is a bad programming practice in any language." I'll buy that. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 16:22:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:22:45 -0400 Subject: Friday the 13th "General-ly" lucky (Nova rescue) Message-ID: I have finally managed to schedule a rescue near my house, a Data General Nova 4 in a 5' blue DG rack. It's a one-owner system, bought 20+ years ago as a general purpose office computer for a machine shop north of town. Unfortunately, the owner pitched out everything except the rack and rack contents, several years ago. I haven't looked yet, but I suspect that there's stuff to be found on bitsavers. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 16:23:12 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505132123.OAA19514@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I can think of at least one that might do something funny in Forth. Example: : DoSomething 20 0 DO R> 1+ >R I . LOOP ; Still, execution order is well defined. This operation will do different things based on the Forth it was used with but the order of doing things is not under question. It might even crash the computer. This kind of thing is usually specified to not be covered by the specifications in most Forth standards. Usually, the release does specify the behavior in any case. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >>> I think the OP's point has been completely missed (that a valid program is a >>> inherently very definitive and detailed specification). >> >> What I was commenting on was this statement by John Hogerhuis: >> >>> I think the programming language is the most >>> succinct, clear, and unambiguous specification language imaginable. >>> Almost always each construct has one and only one interpretation. >> >> Which really depends upon the language. > >I agree with his statement - however in a public forum, one needs to add >some fire resistant padding like "programming language when properly used" >or "a valid program". C like many languages (including FORTH :-) has loopholes >where one can create program which invoke undefined behaviour, however these >constructs generally exist in the real world only at the hand of someone very >new to the language, or intentially contriving an "example". > >Generally speaking, a programming language is more succinct, clear and >unambiguous than many other forms of abstraction - the fact that it is possible >to abuse it to other ends in specific cases does not invalidate that claim. > > >> -spc (And C leaves some stuff underspecified like this to help compiler >> writers wring performance out of compiled code ... ) > >and for historical reasons. > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From dwight.elvey at AMD.com Fri May 13 16:29:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <200505132129.OAA19519@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I'm looking at an application of the 8X300 by Signetics. This is for a hard disk controller. Is anyone fiddling with simmulators for this processor. It seems like someone was a while back. My current application is on an Olivetti M20 not a TRS80. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 13 16:37:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:37:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <0IGG00MRF6Q2YW95@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi > I'm looking at an application of the 8X300 by >Signetics. This is for a hard disk controller. >Is anyone fiddling with simmulators for this processor. >It seems like someone was a while back. > My current application is on an Olivetti M20 not >a TRS80. >Dwight > Ah the classic first of the fast microcontrollers. I'd have to dig but I vaguely remember the 8x300 as a disk controller apnote. Nasty beast to program. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 16:37:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505132137.OAA19523@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lyle Bickley" ---snip--- The first sentence in >the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that writing code >which depends on order of evaluation is a bad programming practice in any >language." > >I'll buy that. Hi Interesting! I've always considered order of execution to be one of the fundamentals of being able to predict what a computer does. I've always thought of it as an accentual part of programming with predictable results. Each to their own I say. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 13 16:41:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:41:07 -0400 Subject: Free for pickup: hotrod kaypro [Austin, TX, USA] Message-ID: <0IGG00JOG6WFXTT8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Free for pickup: hotrod kaypro [Austin, TX, USA] > From: Jim Battle > Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:30:35 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Start with a Kaypro II. > >It has a modification to run at 5.0 MHz as well as the standard 2.5 MHz. > >One of the floppies has been replaced with a hard drive, partitioned as >drives A/B/C/D. The remaining floppy is drive E. I have the original >floppy that was displaced by the hard drive. > >It has been modified to have a fan. > >It has a RAM disk installed in it as well. > >It sports the Advent Turborom. Sounds like my 4/84! Rather than a hard disk I used a 3.5" floppy internal and one in the 5.25 slot via an adaptor along with the HH 5.25 48tpi for compatability. I alsohave the Advent turborom with the personality card so it knows 96tpi 80tr DSdd. Plus mine has the handyman rom/ piggyback board with RTC. Sweet machine to use and tote around for effect. Allison From CCTalk at catcorner.org Fri May 13 16:46:22 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:46:22 -0400 Subject: SASI to MFM boards available WD1002S-SHD Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D90@mail.catcorner.org> I have quite a few of these. 3.5" form factor. If anyone needs them let me know. You just pay for shipping plus pay pal fees from New Jersey. Most are New In Box units. I also have the appnotes. Kelly From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 13 16:53:50 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:53:50 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <200505132137.OAA19523@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <17029.8686.781000.722649@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> From: "Lyle Bickley" Dwight> ---snip--- The first sentence in >> the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that >> writing code which depends on order of evaluation is a bad >> programming practice in any language." >> >> I'll buy that. Dwight> Hi Interesting! I've always considered order of execution to Dwight> be one of the fundamentals of being able to predict what a Dwight> computer does. I've always thought of it as an accentual part Dwight> of programming with predictable results. That's true for a single CPU sequential computer without any interrupts going on. It isn't true if you run things in parallel on several CPUs. It may not be true in multi-issue computer (which is most modern fast CPUs) if the architecture has sufficiently relaxed ordering rules. But all that applies to the hardware. Many programming languages don't specify a single order of doing everything in every possible program, but instead leave things partially unspecified, so the translation from source code to machine language has more opportunities for optimization. So even if a machine is fully sequential and fully ordered, the high level language programs you feed it might not be. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 16:57:09 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <200505132157.OAA19528@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>Hi >> I'm looking at an application of the 8X300 by >>Signetics. This is for a hard disk controller. >>Is anyone fiddling with simmulators for this processor. >>It seems like someone was a while back. >> My current application is on an Olivetti M20 not >>a TRS80. >>Dwight >> > >Ah the classic first of the fast microcontrollers. >I'd have to dig but I vaguely remember the 8x300 >as a disk controller apnote. Nasty beast to program. > >Allison > Hi Don't know why you'd say this, it only has 8 instructions! I've got the spec posted to Al's site. This controller application is a little interesting in that who ever designed this board, also must have done a bitslice designs at one time or another. To save a machine cycle, all I/O addresses are selected by a ROM tied to the instruction addressing. Normally it would take two cycles, one to write the I/O address and one to transfer the data. With the ROM, the address is understood by the program's execution address location. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 17:05:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505132205.PAA19533@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: > > >> From: "Lyle Bickley" > Dwight> ---snip--- The first sentence in > >> the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that > >> writing code which depends on order of evaluation is a bad > >> programming practice in any language." > >> > >> I'll buy that. > > Dwight> Hi Interesting! I've always considered order of execution to > Dwight> be one of the fundamentals of being able to predict what a > Dwight> computer does. I've always thought of it as an accentual part > Dwight> of programming with predictable results. > >That's true for a single CPU sequential computer without any >interrupts going on. It isn't true if you run things in parallel on >several CPUs. It may not be true in multi-issue computer (which is >most modern fast CPUs) if the architecture has sufficiently relaxed >ordering rules. > >But all that applies to the hardware. Many programming languages >don't specify a single order of doing everything in every possible >program, but instead leave things partially unspecified, so the >translation from source code to machine language has more >opportunities for optimization. So even if a machine is fully >sequential and fully ordered, the high level language programs you >feed it might not be. > > paul Hi The last place I worked, the processor was designed to be able to optimize by doing out of order execution ( HaL computer system, first Sparc64 ). They soon discovered the problem when dealing with I/O. They, luckily, had a sequential mode that they could switch to during I/O operations that made the order predictable. You'd have thought that someone in the design team might have realized the problem. Dwight From allain at panix.com Fri May 13 17:12:41 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:12:41 -0400 Subject: Stamps and epay auction References: <200505131700.j4DH0glQ033427@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00d601c55808$e24ce500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196808330 > He's right --- it's a Alto Hawley mouse. Interesting, a second, earlier version of the Hawley. >From the outside looks alot like the (VaxStation) VS10X-EA metal ball mouse, including the use of the two secondary balls. (Opening) Yes, it says "Hawley X063X Mark II Mouse" and "Mouse House, Berkeley, CA 1983" Zowie, thanks for mentioning. John A. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 13 17:16:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:16:42 -0500 Subject: OT: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? In-Reply-To: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050513171617.05353df8@mail> At 02:08 PM 5/13/2005, you wrote: >>From the email list of the NJ Antique Radio Club: > >Tonight, Friday May 13th, the Tonight Show will feature a message >sending/receiving contest between a cell phone text messaging team and >a Morse code team. Probably due to : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-1571664,00.html and http://engadget.com/entry/1234000463042528/ - John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 13 17:33:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513195013.RISH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050513195013.RISH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200505132234.SAA18724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Now, tell me what will be printed: > int i = 0; > i = i++; > printf("%d\n", i); Whatever the implementation feels like giving you. Again, i is being modified multiple times between sequence points, so it's nasal demon time. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 13 17:38:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:38:29 -0500 Subject: HP RTE (or A900) help? Message-ID: <015901c5580c$7c930970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I know an ex-HP field engineer that needs to read some data off 4mm DAT that was created on an HP A900 RTE-A system. The tapes are in either ASave or FC format. I have no A900's in my collection or I'd help him out myself. Does anyone know of a program that will read ASave or FC format tapes from RTE, and just dump the files on the local drive of a unix box? Or, in the absence of such a program, does anyone have an A900 with DAT, and LAN that they would loan/rent for a short period? Please reply off-list Kind regards, Jay West From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 13 17:44:46 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:44:46 -0500 Subject: More photos of odd find and AES computer? correction In-Reply-To: <200505131503.01479.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200505131458.30751.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200505131503.01479.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <42852DDE.8030509@Rikers.org> Can you take a closer picture of the inside of a panel? http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000171.jpg Could that all be core memory? -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 13 17:49:38 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:49:38 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <42852F02.7080604@Rikers.org> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > int i = 0; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); depends on the compiler. The spec leaves it open. gcc will likely do "0 1 2" but any where: 0 <= first <= second <= third <= 2 are valid iirc. > > (That's C code, just to let you know). > > -spc (Who knows the answer and is driving you towards the murkier parts of > the C specification ... ) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From marvin at rain.org Fri May 13 17:53:19 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:53:19 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/300 Message-ID: <42852FDF.C5D7B1B8@rain.org> I picked up an HP 9000/300 w/cabinet this week that I was told works, but know nothing (yet) about it. The 9000/300 has four modules in it; 98625B, 98550A, HPIB/RS-232/HP-HIL/Audio/other connectors, and an unmarked module. Included in the cabinet are the HP9144, 9122C, and 92628 w/two 152 MB HDs. I wasn't able to find the RGB monitor but will pick it up at some point. It also included the keyboard and I do have the root password. Since I dont' really know much about HP equipment, is this a worthwhile system to play with? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 17:30:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:30:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512223710.67957.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at May 12, 5 11:37:10 pm Message-ID: > Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to > 50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. Is there any reason why the BASIC subroutine stack has to be the processor hardware stack? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 17:35:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:35:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tek 4109 terminal In-Reply-To: <1115941080.17990.56.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 12, 5 11:38:00 pm Message-ID: > > Ah, a Keytronics keyboard.... and alas I know the problem well, as the > > keyboard on my PERQ 2T1 has suffered :-(. > > Rats - first time I've come across it, but I suppose our 2T1 is going to > suffer at some point too! Keytronics keyboard turn up everywhere... Not just on PERQs (all PERQ 2s...), but also on Apricots, Tektronices (presumably that's the plural of Tektronix :-)), Compaqs, Whitechapel MG1s, etc, etc, etc. The good news is that the many parts (including the custom chips) will interchange between machines. > > > When I get a round tuit, I think I should make some kind of cutting punch > > and stemp out 100 or so foam circles to fix the darn thing.... Or if you > > find a quciker way of doing it, let me know... > > Well at the moment I did a quick-fix using cut squares of that draught- > excluder strip that you put around doors to seal them. It's sticky on > both sides of course, with foam of about the right thickness, so is a Where did you get draught excluder that was sticky on both sides? Sounds like quite a good solution, actually. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 17:41:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:41:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <1115964965.9572.18.camel@fortran> from "Tore S Bekkedal" at May 13, 5 08:16:05 am Message-ID: > Yeah, but likely the RGB in isn't wired. Pretty much every TV made in > Europe since some time in the 80s has had SCART, but the RGB signal is > probably a fairly new thing. Perhaps I've been lucky (or have never worked on really low-end stuff), but every _TV_ I've worked on with a SCART socket has had the RGB pins wired up (as inputs). Conversely, I've never seen a VCR with the RGB pins used. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 17:44:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:44:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: CGA monitor on eBay In-Reply-To: <1115974537.19442.8.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 13, 5 08:55:37 am Message-ID: > Surely it's easier to provide RGB inputs than composite though - to do > RGB (and seperate sync inputs) isn't it almost as simple as feeding the > signals into the right point of the existing TV circuitry, whereas to > cope with composite you'd need circuitry to split the signals out at > extra cost? Yes, but that circuity -- the colour decoder -- must exist in a TV anyway. The signal you get from the video detector (at the output of the video IF strip) is essentially a composite video signal. RGB is slightly harder to provide (you have to switch 3 or 4 signals, not just 1), but only slighty. > > You could well be right though - I'm almost certain that my Domesday > setup (which only does video overlay on RGB outputs) wouldn't work with > my cheap 14" TV via the SCART connector when I tried it. That could be a lot of things, including not enabling the RGB inputs on the SCART connector. This is sometimes done by selecting a special 'channel' with the remote control, sometimes by applying 12V or so to the right pin on the SCART connector. Do you have a service manual for the TV (and if not, why the heck not?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 17:47:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:47:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at May 13, 5 01:38:51 pm Message-ID: > So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > int i = 0; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > > (That's C code, just to let you know). Nasal demons? -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 13 18:08:36 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:08:36 +0100 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <42852F02.7080604@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <002f01c55810$b2b87040$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tim Riker wrote: > depends on the compiler. The spec leaves it open. gcc will > likely do "0 1 2" but any where: > > 0 <= first <= second <= third <= 2 > > are valid iirc. undefined really does mean undefined. The compiler could call printf with any three values it has lying around and still be conforming. The order of argument evaluation is explicitly left unspecified so as to give the implementation more freedom to optimise. There is no 1st,2nd,3rd - the arguments might be evaluated from the middle outwards or the outside inwards or whatever makes sense. You cannot even assume that if you write that line out twice, that the order of evaluation will be the same the second time round. If the printf is within a loop, the order of evaluation might vary on each invocation. Optimisers do all kinds of fun stuff! Since the behaviour is undefined, anything can happen. In practice the compiler won't turn into a bowl of geraniums, but it could do something far worse, and emit code that does whatever it is that you might have expected. That way you think you've written something reasonable only to find that it all blows up horribly when the platform changes or you get a new compiler or you update your existing compiler or whatever. About the only thing that is guaranteed is that, if you fall prey to this problem, your QA org will miss the problem and your customers will find it :-) To top it all, you cannot even be sure what the value of i will be after the call. I think gcc 3.3 spots this kind of thing (and the other common variant: a[++i] = ++i; Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri May 13 18:22:37 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:22:37 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505132137.OAA19523@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505132137.OAA19523@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200505131622.37639.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 May 2005 14:37, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > From: "Lyle Bickley" > ---snip--- > The first sentence in > > >the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that writing > > code which depends on order of evaluation is a bad programming practice > > in any language." > > > >I'll buy that. > > Hi > Interesting! I've always considered order of execution > to be one of the fundamentals of being able to predict > what a computer does. I've always thought of it as > an accentual part of programming with predictable results. > Each to their own I say. > Dwight The section (and prior discussion) was related to writing code dependent on a compilers interpretation of order - as opposed to the programmers purposeful order. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 18:23:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505132323.QAA19583@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to >> 50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. > >Is there any reason why the BASIC subroutine stack has to be the >processor hardware stack? > >-tony > Hi There is no rule, just that it was fast so why not? Dwight From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 13 18:36:54 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:36:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050513233654.85243.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> Assuming the stack is cleared by RUN then you can nest 40 to >> 50 levels of GOSUBs in most 6502 BAISCs. > Is there any reason why the BASIC subroutine stack has to be > the processor hardware stack? No, it's just quicker and easier that way. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri May 13 18:55:33 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:55:33 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <002f01c55810$b2b87040$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <002f01c55810$b2b87040$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <42853E75.5040705@compsys.to> >Antonio Carlini wrote: >[Snip] >I think gcc 3.3 spots this kind of thing (and the >other common variant: > a[++i] = ++i; > Jerome Fine replies: I assume that the above statement could have two possible interpretations: (a) j = ++i; k = ++i; a[j] = k; (b) j = ++i; k = ++i; a[k] = j; (i) Are there any other interpretations? If so, what is the equivalent code? (ii) Does gcc 3.3 produce a warning or an error message? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri May 13 19:06:28 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:06:28 -0700 Subject: Hawley Mouse References: <42852E4B.7060901@spies.com> Message-ID: <42854104.212DE4B2@msm.umr.edu> Is Atarimuseum (ebay id) on here? I'd submit a bid, but if someone on the list wants this I won't cross bid for now. I'd like to see the photos he has published w/o watermarks. there is a lot of nice imagery there of these items, but obviously no one here can publish them. jim Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196808330 > > He's right --- it's a Alto Hawley mouse. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 13 19:01:07 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <42853E75.5040705@compsys.to> References: <002f01c55810$b2b87040$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <42853E75.5040705@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200505140009.UAA19156@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> a[++i] = ++i; > I assume that the above statement could have two possible > interpretations: > (a) j = ++i; k = ++i; a[j] = k; > (b) j = ++i; k = ++i; a[k] = j; True; those are two of the many possibilities. > (i) Are there any other interpretations? Yes. > If so, what is the equivalent code? There may not be any. When code wanders into realms specified to produce undefined behaviour (as here, where i is modified twice without an intervening sequence point), there is nothing compelling the compiler to produce output that corresponds to any well-formed C code at all. (I'm not even sure there's anything in the C spec calling for the compiler to produce *any* output in such circumstances.) If you want possible interpretations that *do* correspond to writable C code, here's one for you: a[i*i]=314156; i=a[0]/a[-1]; (Of course, a real compiler would be unlikely to do that....) > (ii) Does gcc 3.3 produce a warning or an error message? I don't know (and mostly don't care). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri May 13 19:11:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:11:18 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050514001116.UJGS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 18:33 13/05/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> Now, tell me what will be printed: > >> int i = 0; >> i = i++; >> printf("%d\n", i); > >Whatever the implementation feels like giving you. EXACTLY! - that is the only truly correct answer. Expected/likely answers are 0 and/or 1 ... but this is NOT guaranteed by the standard. >Again, i is being modified multiple times between sequence points, so >it's nasal demon time. Although the nasal demon theory has been around for a long time, I am certain that this will not be the result here - not of my machines are fitted with appropriate I/O hardware to cause this - but as was pointed out many years ago - it COULD be the result! Yes - this is essentually the same scenario - I just removed any doubt caused by order of execution of function parameters - this is an example of prime undefined behaviour. >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B PS: Sorry to be so brief on the phone (family movie in progress)... see you on sunday. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 13 19:10:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:10:37 -0400 Subject: Hawley Mouse In-Reply-To: <42854104.212DE4B2@msm.umr.edu> References: <42852E4B.7060901@spies.com> <42854104.212DE4B2@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <428541FD.9000007@atarimuseum.com> Yup, thats me. I've wanted one of those for quite some time. Curt jim stephens wrote: >Is Atarimuseum (ebay id) on here? I'd submit a bid, but if someone on >the list >wants this I won't cross bid for now. I'd like to see the photos he has >published >w/o watermarks. there is a lot of nice imagery there of these items, >but obviously >no one here can publish them. > >jim > >Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196808330 >> > He's right --- it's a Alto Hawley mouse. >> >> > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 5/12/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 13 19:13:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505140013.RAA19599@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Lyle Bickley" > >On Friday 13 May 2005 14:37, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Lyle Bickley" >> ---snip--- >> The first sentence in >> >> >the final paragraph reads: "The moral of this discussion is that writing >> > code which depends on order of evaluation is a bad programming practice >> > in any language." >> > >> >I'll buy that. >> >> Hi >> Interesting! I've always considered order of execution >> to be one of the fundamentals of being able to predict >> what a computer does. I've always thought of it as >> an accentual part of programming with predictable results. >> Each to their own I say. >> Dwight > >The section (and prior discussion) was related to writing code dependent on a >compilers interpretation of order - as opposed to the programmers purposeful >order. > >Lyle Sorry, I must have read it out of order :) My point was that the language should always have defined order, regardless of what the compiler was interpreting. Maybe there is something basically flawed in the concept of that method of interpreting! The basic concept of a computer language is to define the operations you'd like done in order! I know that one could break the sequence into several pieces to enforce order but I consider it a serious flaw that one has to be careful about how it interprets order. I consider order to be one of the most fundamental concepts of programming. Most everything else is just nice features. I repeat, there are languages that do not have ambiguous order issues. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Fri May 13 19:47:36 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:47:36 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <200505140013.RAA19599@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5581e$89bdfd00$023cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 7:13 PM > Sorry, I must have read it out of order :) > My point was that the language should always > have defined order, regardless of what the compiler > was interpreting. Maybe there is something basically > flawed in the concept of that method of interpreting! > The basic concept of a computer language is to define > the operations you'd like done in order! I know that > one could break the sequence into several pieces to > enforce order but I consider it a serious flaw that > one has to be careful about how it interprets order. > I consider order to be one of the most fundamental > concepts of programming. Most everything else is just > nice features. > I repeat, there are languages that do not have ambiguous > order issues. > Dwight No all languages of any complexity have ambiguous elements. What is important is what is unambiguous. A good programmer learns the limits and works within them. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 19:51:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:51:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505132323.QAA19583@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 13, 5 04:23:35 pm Message-ID: > >Is there any reason why the BASIC subroutine stack has to be the > >processor hardware stack? > There is no rule, just that it was fast so why not? Because, IIRC, the 6502 stack is only 256 bytes long. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 19:57:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:57:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050514001116.UJGS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at May 13, 5 08:11:18 pm Message-ID: > Although the nasal demon theory has been around for a long time, I > am certain that this will not be the result here - not of my machines > are fitted with appropriate I/O hardware to cause this - but as was Assuming you're running on machines more modern than the sort of stuff I use, I can't believe you've got real technical and/or service manuals for the hardware. In which case, you can't be _sure_ there's not a nasal demon generator hidden in one of the ASICs. [:-) of course] -tony From charlesb at otcgaming.net Fri May 13 20:09:01 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:09:01 +0100 Subject: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? In-Reply-To: <200505131908.j4DJ8D9G035250@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <018e01c55821$84a41cc0$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Probably a bit late, but could sum1 record it and post it for us non-US people that don?t get it? Regards and 73 Charles 2E0GOM ARICC UK Co-ordinator - http://www.aricc.org -----Original Message----- From: Computer Collector Newsletter [mailto:news at computercollector.com] Sent: 13 May 2005 20:09 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: OT: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? >From the email list of the NJ Antique Radio Club: ------------------ Tonight, Friday May 13th, the Tonight Show will feature a message sending/receiving contest between a cell phone text messaging team and a Morse code team. The Morse code team will consist of Chip Margelli, K7JA and Ken Miller, K6CTW. The Tonight Show people called the store yesterday to see if we could come up with two fast Morse operators. Chip and Ken does a lot of contests and DXpeditions. Joe Drago, props manager for the show is KF6OCP. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 13 20:14:58 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:14:58 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505132205.PAA19533@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505132205.PAA19533@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42855112.4020903@pacbell.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: ... > Hi > The last place I worked, the processor was designed to > be able to optimize by doing out of order execution ( HaL > computer system, first Sparc64 ). They soon discovered the > problem when dealing with I/O. They, luckily, had a > sequential mode that they could switch to during I/O > operations that made the order predictable. You'd have > thought that someone in the design team might have realized > the problem. > Dwight Dwight, I'm more than a little sceptical that the architects at Hal didn't understand that reordering memory accesses would cause problems with programmed I/O. I'm sure that they put in instruction serialization and memory barrier instructions for precisely those reasons. It wasn't a matter of "luckily" at all. Even before OOO (out of order) execution at the instruction level was practical in the 90s, there were designs that performed memory access reordering since the 60s, leading to some of the same issues. As a side note, I believe the first company to attempt (thought they didn't execute) real out of order instruction execution was Metaflow. Some have said that Metaflow's architectects (Bruce Lightner primarily) were ahead of their time, but the hallmark of good engineering is having the judgement to specifify something that can be built within constraints of practicality, not just specifying something with all the cool ideas you can come up with. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 13 20:36:10 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:36:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 In-Reply-To: <200505132157.OAA19528@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505132157.OAA19528@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4285560A.nailDHT11WK20@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > also must have done a bitslice designs at one time or another I always thought of the 8x300 as a near-bitslice processor... bipolar, data port, etc. While it doesn't chain together to make bigger wordsizes like AMD2901/Intel 3002, it really was a programmable sequencer very much like those bitslice parts. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 13 20:46:08 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 18:46:08 -0700 Subject: HP 9000/300 Message-ID: <42855860.5020706@bitsavers.org> Since I dont' really know much about HP equipment, is this a worthwhile system to play with? -- http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/FAQ/rossspon/hp300faq.htm is an interesting place to start indentifying what you have. From vrs at msn.com Fri May 13 21:01:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:01:55 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050513195013.RISH16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: From: "Dave Dunfield" > >I think the functions to be performed are defined, and only their order is > >undefined. > > Thats is the expected result, however since we are performing multiple modifications > to an Lvalue within one sequence interval, the behaviour is "undefined" according to > the C standard - this means that "anything goes", and there is no guarantee that it > will be the expected result, or even one of several expected results (although this > will be almost always the case). Sorry to belabor the point, but... This is the part that I can't find in my C documentation. I get that there are multiple assignments before the sequence point, whose order is "unspecified". But can't find anything that says the result should be "undefined", so I assume it should be one of the values (but which one would still be "unspecified"). Then again, I am working from the lexical guide, rather than the standards documents themselves. (Can you cite chapter and verse?) Vince From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri May 13 21:14:34 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:14:34 -0700 Subject: Free 24 pin cardedge connectors Message-ID: <000901c5582a$b24bf400$0200a8c0@downstairs2> I wanted 20 pin connectors for my Nixie tube project but ordered 24 pin ones.(It was late.) I have three that I don't need. I understand these are used for Commodore Pet I/O ports, does anyone want them? Edgeboard Connector, 24 contact, .156" pitch, solder-eye connectors, .200" gap. EDAC part number 307-024-500-202 The Digi-Key stock number is EDC307240-ND Here is a picture. http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/EDAC/Web%20Photo/307-024-500-202.jpg Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley Here is the Nixie project. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Dec1970/PE_Dec1970.htm From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri May 13 22:04:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:04:00 -0400 Subject: Anybody know what this front panel is for? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050513230400.0154e210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found this today . Anybody know what it's for? It's obviously for some kind of computer or computer based systems since it talks about ROM Address and the like. But it has some terms that I don't recognize, TU Status, Romar/Bromar, etc. This thing is almost three foot wide so I had to take three pictures in order to get closeups of the legends. See for more pictures. BTW this is all of the system that I found and this is exactly the way that I found the panel except for wiping some dust and dirt off of it. The HP 700i isn't part of it, it's picture just happened to be on the same disk. Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 13 22:13:25 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:13:25 -0700 Subject: Anybody know what this front panel is for? Message-ID: <42856CD5.90102@bitsavers.org> My guess is a Honeywell tape channel control. The stuff on the left is for a tape drive, and it sort of looks like the panels in the Computer Museum's Multics machine. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 13 22:23:53 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call Message-ID: In the next two weeks, we must dispose of the Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe - somehow. So far two possiblities have fallen through. Therefore, be it Known to All by these Presentments: There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate, as they say, and speak those rare words: "I'll take that..." System will fit in a std-sized pick-up truck, forklift and loading assistance is provided. Sombody adopt this machine before we are forced to KILL it. Cheers (Hopefully Not The Grim Computer Reaper) John From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 13 22:24:50 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call Message-ID: In the next two weeks, we must dispose of the Honeywell DPS-6 mainframe - somehow. So far two possiblities have fallen through. Therefore, be it Known to All by these Presentments: There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate, as they say, and speak those rare words: "I'll take that..." System will fit in a std-sized pick-up truck, forklift and loading assistance is provided. Sombody adopt this machine before we are forced to KILL it. Cheers (Hopefully Not The Grim Computer Reaper) John From tomj at wps.com Fri May 13 22:42:50 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <42847100.8030403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050512221733.X836@localhost> <42847100.8030403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050513204003.J836@localhost> >> A lot of reaction against excessive GOTOs was from the horrible >> things early FORTRANs made you do, and macho programmers who >> stopped learning early. I have to wonder what the cultures of >> optimization that sprung up around drum machines did too. On Fri, 13 May 2005, woodelf wrote: > Well it has come back to haunt us since random access memory > has got replaced by cashe and deep pipelined cpu's. Try writing > a loop and see what happens ... No wait a loop has the dreaded GOTO. So what exactly are you complaining about? :-) From marvin at rain.org Fri May 13 22:58:36 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:58:36 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <4285776C.E3311AD2@rain.org> > >> A lot of reaction against excessive GOTOs was from the horrible > >> things early FORTRANs made you do, and macho programmers who > >> stopped learning early. I have to wonder what the cultures of > >> optimization that sprung up around drum machines did too. > > On Fri, 13 May 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > Well it has come back to haunt us since random access memory > > has got replaced by cashe and deep pipelined cpu's. Try writing > > a loop and see what happens ... No wait a loop has the dreaded GOTO. One of my first programming projects in college was write a program to printout 26 hands of Bridge ... I was a Bridge major :). Not knowing enough, I exited one of the Fortran IV loops with a goto. Big mistake! Finally one of the professors found the problem on a second or third look after I had shown the code to almost everyone in the department with no success. I still like the goto ... just not to exit loops :). From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 13 23:04:59 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:04:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9000/300 Message-ID: <20050514040459.15109.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Since I dont' really know much about HP equipment, is > this a worthwhile system to play with? It can't be that good as I couldn't even give mine away. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 13 23:11:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:11:40 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <0IGG00MHPOZ8YZ16@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone playing with the 8x300 > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:57:09 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >>Ah the classic first of the fast microcontrollers. >>I'd have to dig but I vaguely remember the 8x300 >>as a disk controller apnote. Nasty beast to program. >> >>Allison >> > >Hi > Don't know why you'd say this, it only has 8 instructions! >I've got the spec posted to Al's site. > This controller application is a little interesting in that >who ever designed this board, also must have done a bitslice >designs at one time or another. To save a machine cycle, all >I/O addresses are selected by a ROM tied to the instruction >addressing. Normally it would take two cycles, one to write >the I/O address and one to transfer the data. With the >ROM, the address is understood by the program's execution >address location. >Dwight It's more of a sequencer or state machine with a crude ALU. As to those 8 instructions, looks at what the fields are for each one. I've done horizontal microcode and that is similar. Due to it's very harvard design it's not one you will do constans in rom much. Also the IO devices are really IO specific as in the address of each is coded into the part. One use for it was an 8bit wide DSP. I have a real one here of the later 8x305 I2L that was a bit faster. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 13 23:12:56 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:12:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <0IGG004YVP1CS2Y7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone playing with the 8x300 > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com > Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:36:10 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> also must have done a bitslice designs at one time or another > >I always thought of the 8x300 as a near-bitslice processor... bipolar, >data port, etc. While it doesn't chain together to make bigger >wordsizes like AMD2901/Intel 3002, it really was a programmable >sequencer very much like those bitslice parts. > >Tim. think of it as two 2901s and a 2911 with fixed sequencing and instruction decode rom. Fast, but strange to program. Allison From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 13 23:19:26 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:19:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050514041926.17263.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >>> Is there any reason why the BASIC subroutine stack has >>> to be the processor hardware stack? >> There is no rule, just that it was fast so why not? > Because, IIRC, the 6502 stack is only 256 bytes long. You really have to try hard to get a 6502 BASIC interpreter to use more than 20 or so bytes of the stack purely for interpreter code calls, so why not use it for the interpreted code as well? Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From wpileggi at juno.com Fri May 13 23:33:24 2005 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:33:24 GMT Subject: PDP series/DEC Prototyping cards Message-ID: <20050513.213403.17376.4647@webmail27.lax.untd.com> I have a few PDP series/DEC Prototyping cards. Anybody interested? Will scan a picture for you. Bill ___________________________________________________________________ Get Juno Platinum for as low as $4.97/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 250MB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/half to sign up today! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:02:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:02:35 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS Message-ID: The Palm isn't quite 10 years old yet, but at least this is cool hand-held tech... I have this Rand McNally Navman/Streetfinder GPS that wraps around a Palm III, and I have lost track of which wall wart charges it up. There is, of course, no power information molded into the case, and as of yet, I have been unable to google any specs. Does anyone on the list happen to have one of these, or even just know what the input voltage is? I suspect it might be 12V, so that a simple lead can charge it in the car, but even an examination of the innards hasn't been revealing. I did run across a variable voltage car adapter with the right tip set to 9V. Since I don't have many devices with that particular tip (it's the smallest female coax connector in the standard Radio Shack kit), I have reason to suspect that I may have rigged this up some years ago, but I have no direct proof. I realize I should have scrawled the power info on the back with a Sharpie, something I will now do, once I put this thing back in service. Thanks for any tips, -ethan From dhbarr at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:06:57 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:06:57 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://mightygps.com/pseries.htm seems to indicate (if this is indeed the right model) that yes, it does take 12v. -dhbarr. On 5/14/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The Palm isn't quite 10 years old yet, but at least this is cool > hand-held tech... > > I have this Rand McNally Navman/Streetfinder GPS that wraps around a > Palm III, and I have lost track of which wall wart charges it up. > There is, of course, no power information molded into the case, and as > of yet, I have been unable to google any specs. Does anyone on the > list happen to have one of these, or even just know what the input > voltage is? I suspect it might be 12V, so that a simple lead can > charge it in the car, but even an examination of the innards hasn't > been revealing. I did run across a variable voltage car adapter with > the right tip set to 9V. Since I don't have many devices with that > particular tip (it's the smallest female coax connector in the > standard Radio Shack kit), I have reason to suspect that I may have > rigged this up some years ago, but I have no direct proof. > > I realize I should have scrawled the power info on the back with a > Sharpie, something I will now do, once I put this thing back in > service. > > Thanks for any tips, > > -ethan > > From dhbarr at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:13:00 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:13:00 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, http://www.qsl.net/n2ixd/tracker/ indicates: [snip] The 12-channel OEM GPS board is manufactured by Talon Technology. The one I used was 'hacked' from a Rand McNally Streetfinder GPS for Palm III. [snip] With a little experimenting I've found that the board will operate satisfactorily from a supply voltage of +4.5V to +15V DC. -dhbarr. On 5/14/05, David H. Barr wrote: > http://mightygps.com/pseries.htm seems to indicate (if this is indeed > the right model) that yes, it does take 12v. > > -dhbarr. > > On 5/14/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The Palm isn't quite 10 years old yet, but at least this is cool > > hand-held tech... > > > > I have this Rand McNally Navman/Streetfinder GPS that wraps around a > > Palm III, and I have lost track of which wall wart charges it up. > > There is, of course, no power information molded into the case, and as > > of yet, I have been unable to google any specs. Does anyone on the > > list happen to have one of these, or even just know what the input > > voltage is? I suspect it might be 12V, so that a simple lead can > > charge it in the car, but even an examination of the innards hasn't > > been revealing. I did run across a variable voltage car adapter with > > the right tip set to 9V. Since I don't have many devices with that > > particular tip (it's the smallest female coax connector in the > > standard Radio Shack kit), I have reason to suspect that I may have > > rigged this up some years ago, but I have no direct proof. > > > > I realize I should have scrawled the power info on the back with a > > Sharpie, something I will now do, once I put this thing back in > > service. > > > > Thanks for any tips, > > > > -ethan > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:29:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:29:43 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/14/05, David H. Barr wrote: > http://mightygps.com/pseries.htm seems to indicate (if this is indeed > the right model) that yes, it does take 12v. Mine is the older model with the flat antenna, not the helical antenna in the stubby bit, but it does bode well for a nominal 12V supply. Thanks for the link. -ethan From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:32:31 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:32:31 -0700 Subject: More photos of odd find and AES computer? correction In-Reply-To: <200505131503.01479.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200505131458.30751.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200505131503.01479.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I think that is a nice chunk of core. If the planes are truly 12X12 inches it is a lot of core. Can't tell if it is big or small core. Any date codes or numbers besides the handwritten, the R150-1568 & the frame numbers visible in the pictures? Paxton, Astoria, OR On 5/13/05, Mike wrote: > On May 13, 2005 2:58 pm, Mike wrote: > > On April 28, 2005 3:59 pm, Mike wrote: > > > Approximately 5' x 1' aluminum sides > > > inside there are 5 sets of 16 fan folded plates, All the connectors come > > > off the one end. > > > > > > pictures here > > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000165.JPG > > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000166.JPG > > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000167.JPG > > > > > > Is it of any use as one peice or should I separate out the fan folded > > > plates? > > the photos shoudl be jpg not JPG > > Well I took off the side panels > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000168.jpg > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000169.jpg > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000170.jpg > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000171.jpg > > Todays mystery > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000172.jpg > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000173.jpg > > it came with several boxes of AES labeled disks and schematics > > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/11000174.jpg > > a pair of international terminals (adm-31) > and boxes of parts (zilog super 8, fairchild proto kits, 44.3750 crystals, > 5.25" and 3.5" shugart drives stepper motors,....) > > -- > Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html > Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 01:43:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:43:38 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/14/05, David H. Barr wrote: > Also, http://www.qsl.net/n2ixd/tracker/ indicates: > > [snip] > The 12-channel OEM GPS board is manufactured by Talon Technology. The > one I used was 'hacked' from a Rand McNally Streetfinder GPS for Palm > III. > [snip] > With a little experimenting I've found that the board will operate > satisfactorily from a supply voltage of +4.5V to +15V DC. Ah-ha! That's quite revealing, especially the NZ connection to Talon (the Streetfinder has a 'made in New Zealand' sticker). The picture of the innards does match the innards of mine, so I think we have a winner. I've always wanted to get an APRS system set up... I think I may have to pick up another one of these to hack. Thanks! -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 14 03:06:07 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:06:07 +0200 Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050514100607.3d4c74b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) John Lawson wrote: > There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to > be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate Isn't a DPS-6 capable of running Multics? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 03:18:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:18:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for Palm Pilot parts (slightly OT) Message-ID: OK... now that I have the GPS issue squared away, I have one final Palm query - does anyone on the list have a box of dead Palms or Palm parts. I am specifically interested in the SIMMs from Palm IIIs and older. I have a U.S. Robotics 512K Palm w/PalmOS 2.0 in ROM, and a 1MB IBM WorkPad w/PalmOS 2.0.3 in ROM, and I would like to use them with more modern apps that depend on the serial port, thus I need at least a 3.0 SIMM. The ones in a Palm III are perfect - partially because they have 2MB of RAM, and partially because they typically have PalmOS 3.0 in FlashROM. Palms with dead screens would make nice donors, if anyone has such things lying around. If not, perhaps I'll find some bits at Dayton, but people usually only bring working ones, and I really am looking for parts to take presently working ones and make them into _useful_ ones. The three things I most need to run are a VT100 emulator, PalmORB, and a GPS app - all serial-dependent apps. Please write me off-list if you happen to have a small box of dead Palms of any variety. Thanks, -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat May 14 06:30:12 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:30:12 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050514113011.JPYG5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Sorry to belabor the point, but... > >This is the part that I can't find in my C documentation. I get that there >are multiple assignments before the sequence point, whose order is >"unspecified". But can't find anything that says the result should be >"undefined", so I assume it should be one of the values (but which one would >still be "unspecified"). If it were just a matter of assignments, I might agree with you, however in this particular case, the code contains three read-modify-write operations on the same Lvalue all of which occur within the context of side effects within a single sequence interval. IIRC the behavior in this instance is undefined. >Then again, I am working from the lexical guide, rather than the standards >documents themselves. (Can you cite chapter and verse?) Sorry, I'm operating from memory - haven't got a clue where my copy is at the moment (haven't had to make major changes to my compiler in quite a long time). Here is a reference to a C faq page which cites an example exactly like the code in this discussion, with references to K&R, ANSI and ISO documents: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q3.2.html Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat May 14 06:30:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:30:15 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050514113014.JPYQ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Although the nasal demon theory has been around for a long time, I >> am certain that this will not be the result here - not of my machines >> are fitted with appropriate I/O hardware to cause this - but as was > >Assuming you're running on machines more modern than the sort of stuff I >use, I can't believe you've got real technical and/or service manuals for >the hardware. In which case, you can't be _sure_ there's not a nasal >demon generator hidden in one of the ASICs. > >[:-) of course] While it's entirely possible that such a device exists in the "black boxes", my point is that all of my machines lack the physical delivery channel to conduct the demons to the nazal outlet, so I think the worst that ever happens is having them ejected from a ventalation opening or disk slot within the unit itself ... (sometimes when I've been coding long enough in one stretch I have observed this!) On the other hand, I am absolutely convinced that the microsloth software in these boxes has deeply embedded simulation and virtualization of demons of all kinds, nazal and otherwise - but thats a whole n'other discussion, and none of the truly possessed boxes are old enough to really qualify for discussion on this list. Cheers, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Sat May 14 07:11:22 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 08:11:22 -0400 Subject: PDP series/DEC Prototyping cards References: <20050513.213403.17376.4647@webmail27.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <002e01c5587e$0ba651a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I have a few PDP series/DEC Prototyping cards. > Anybody interested? Will scan a picture for you. Bill I'm surprised there hasn't been a response yet. Anyway, sure, thanks... John A. From vrs at msn.com Sat May 14 09:41:28 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 07:41:28 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050514113011.JPYG5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: From: "Dave Dunfield" > >Then again, I am working from the lexical guide, rather than the standards > >documents themselves. (Can you cite chapter and verse?) > > Sorry, I'm operating from memory - haven't got a clue where my copy is at the > moment (haven't had to make major changes to my compiler in quite a long time). > Here is a reference to a C faq page which cites an example exactly like the > code in this discussion, with references to K&R, ANSI and ISO documents: > > http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/q3.2.html Thanks! I'll see if I can follow up on the references there. Vince From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Sat May 14 09:46:28 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 10:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 9000/300 In-Reply-To: <42852FDF.C5D7B1B8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I picked up an HP 9000/300 w/cabinet this week that I was told works, > but know nothing (yet) about it. The 9000/300 has four modules in it; > 98625B, This is the high-speed HPIB module for mass storage if I recall correctly > 98550A, Topcat framebuffer; 1280x1024x256 @60Hz, one of the nicest available for the 300 series > HPIB/RS-232/HP-HIL/Audio/other connectors, and an You don't mention the number in the cpu board, or the processor and memory in it. But the cards included suggest one of the better series 300 models, perhaps a 370. I had one of those at one point: http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp370rack.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp370front.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp370back.jpg The number for a 370 system board is 98579; mine had a 33MHz 68030RC. The RAM controller is a 98264. > unmarked module. There should be a number in the board itself. > Included in the cabinet are the HP9144, 9122C, and > 92628 w/two 152 MB HDs. Nice amount of HD for the time. You could have HPUX 9.x and some extra room for users. >I wasn't able to find the RGB monitor but will Typical monitor models that work with the 98550A framebuffer: 98752A, 98754A, 98789A. http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp98752a.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp98754a.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/machinepics/hp98789a.jpg > pick it up at some point. It also included the keyboard Did you not get the HP-HIL mouse? > and I do have > the root password. Since I dont' really know much about HP equipment, is > this a worthwhile system to play with? Yes. You can run netbsd on it or HPUX. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 14 11:38:02 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:38:02 -0700 Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call In-Reply-To: <20050514100607.3d4c74b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20050514100607.3d4c74b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM +0200 5/14/05, Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) >John Lawson wrote: > >> There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to >> be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate >Isn't a DPS-6 capable of running Multics? No, that would be select DPS-8 models. The DPS-6 is basically a Minicomputer. It runs GCOS-6 and maybe other OS's. Someone *really* needs to save this system. It can't be me for multiple reasons. These systems are *VERY, VERY* rare to find in Hobbyist hands. Since this is the system that Sellam had, I think there is only one, maybe two, other systems in Hobbyist hands. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at panix.com Sat May 14 12:05:05 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honeywell DPS6 Clarification Message-ID: If someone can just make a comittment on this, arrangements can then be made - it's the complete lack of any interest that's driving it's disposition currently. So if someone in interested, at all, in this system - write me please and let's figure it out... I don't want to scrap the old girl any more than you guys do. If we know that it's got a home, then the 'time element' can be adjusted to fit your schedules. All somebody has to say is "Yes, I want the DPS-6." and then we can contrive wild schemes to get it transported - as long as that is the case, then the 'execution' can be stayed. Cheers John From dhbarr at gmail.com Sat May 14 12:09:44 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:09:44 -0500 Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call In-Reply-To: References: <20050514100607.3d4c74b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Hrmm... I think maybe, =MAYBE= I can schedule a =TEMPORARY= intervention on this. I have kin in Reno, NV, which is only about 40 minutes off. What are the dimensions on a thing like this? Approximate weight? -dhbarr. On 5/14/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:06 AM +0200 5/14/05, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) > >John Lawson wrote: > > > >> There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to > >> be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate > >Isn't a DPS-6 capable of running Multics? > > No, that would be select DPS-8 models. The DPS-6 is basically a > Minicomputer. It runs GCOS-6 and maybe other OS's. > > Someone *really* needs to save this system. It can't be me for > multiple reasons. These systems are *VERY, VERY* rare to find in > Hobbyist hands. Since this is the system that Sellam had, I think > there is only one, maybe two, other systems in Hobbyist hands. > > Zane > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From dhbarr at gmail.com Sat May 14 12:09:44 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:09:44 -0500 Subject: Honeywell DSP-6 Last Call In-Reply-To: References: <20050514100607.3d4c74b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Hrmm... I think maybe, =MAYBE= I can schedule a =TEMPORARY= intervention on this. I have kin in Reno, NV, which is only about 40 minutes off. What are the dimensions on a thing like this? Approximate weight? -dhbarr. On 5/14/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:06 AM +0200 5/14/05, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >On Fri, 13 May 2005 23:23:53 -0400 (EDT) > >John Lawson wrote: > > > >> There is a fee DPS-6 in Carson City, Nevada, that is going to have to > >> be reduced to scrap, unless someone can step up to the plate > >Isn't a DPS-6 capable of running Multics? > > No, that would be select DPS-8 models. The DPS-6 is basically a > Minicomputer. It runs GCOS-6 and maybe other OS's. > > Someone *really* needs to save this system. It can't be me for > multiple reasons. These systems are *VERY, VERY* rare to find in > Hobbyist hands. Since this is the system that Sellam had, I think > there is only one, maybe two, other systems in Hobbyist hands. > > Zane > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From dwight.elvey at AMD.com Sat May 14 13:43:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <200505141843.LAA20136@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Battle" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >... >> Hi >> The last place I worked, the processor was designed to >> be able to optimize by doing out of order execution ( HaL >> computer system, first Sparc64 ). They soon discovered the >> problem when dealing with I/O. They, luckily, had a >> sequential mode that they could switch to during I/O >> operations that made the order predictable. You'd have >> thought that someone in the design team might have realized >> the problem. >> Dwight > >Dwight, I'm more than a little sceptical that the architects at Hal >didn't understand that reordering memory accesses would cause problems >with programmed I/O. I'm sure that they put in instruction >serialization and memory barrier instructions for precisely those >reasons. It wasn't a matter of "luckily" at all. The sequential mode was for boot ( and I/O ). I suspect that the original architects understood the need but a hole team of software fellows had no idea what was wrong. Trust me on this, I was there and went to the debug meetings. > >Even before OOO (out of order) execution at the instruction level was >practical in the 90s, there were designs that performed memory access >reordering since the 60s, leading to some of the same issues. > >As a side note, I believe the first company to attempt (thought they >didn't execute) real out of order instruction execution was Metaflow. >Some have said that Metaflow's architectects (Bruce Lightner primarily) >were ahead of their time, but the hallmark of good engineering is having >the judgement to specifify something that can be built within >constraints of practicality, not just specifying something with all the >cool ideas you can come up with. It would look ahead to see if it could execute anything that wasn't dependent on something that needed a current pending calculation or something that wasn't already in cache. Because it is a memory mapped I/O, it didn't treat the I/O and different then data. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Sat May 14 13:46:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <200505141846.LAA20140@clulw009.amd.com> >From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com > >> also must have done a bitslice designs at one time or another > >I always thought of the 8x300 as a near-bitslice processor... bipolar, >data port, etc. While it doesn't chain together to make bigger >wordsizes like AMD2901/Intel 3002, it really was a programmable >sequencer very much like those bitslice parts. > >Tim. > Hi With the way it had rotates and masking through th I/O bus, I could see how one could sequentially chain several processors with only a cycle per processor delay. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Sat May 14 14:14:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <200505141914.MAA20190@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: Anyone playing with the 8x300 >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:57:09 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>> >>>Ah the classic first of the fast microcontrollers. >>>I'd have to dig but I vaguely remember the 8x300 >>>as a disk controller apnote. Nasty beast to program. >>> >>>Allison >>> >> >>Hi >> Don't know why you'd say this, it only has 8 instructions! >>I've got the spec posted to Al's site. >> This controller application is a little interesting in that >>who ever designed this board, also must have done a bitslice >>designs at one time or another. To save a machine cycle, all >>I/O addresses are selected by a ROM tied to the instruction >>addressing. Normally it would take two cycles, one to write >>the I/O address and one to transfer the data. With the >>ROM, the address is understood by the program's execution >>address location. >>Dwight > >It's more of a sequencer or state machine with a crude ALU. >As to those 8 instructions, looks at what the fields are >for each one. I've done horizontal microcode and that is >similar. Due to it's very harvard design it's not one you >will do constans in rom much. Also the IO devices are >really IO specific as in the address of each is coded >into the part. Hi Allison It is interesting that this application didn't use that method of I/O addressing. All I/O devices are typical bus type devices. It has a ROM connected to the instruction addresses that selects the I/O based on the address being executed. They don't seem to be taking advantage of the read modify write I/O, either. The ports are all wired as unidirectional ports. Dwight > >One use for it was an 8bit wide DSP. I have a real one here >of the later 8x305 I2L that was a bit faster. > >Allison > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Sat May 14 14:15:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody know what this front panel is for? Message-ID: <200505141915.MAA20194@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > I found this today . >Anybody know what it's for? It's obviously for some kind of computer or >computer based systems since it talks about ROM Address and the like. But >it has some terms that I don't recognize, TU Status, Romar/Bromar, etc. >This thing is almost three foot wide so I had to take three pictures in >order to get closeups of the legends. See > for more pictures. BTW this is all >of the system that I found and this is exactly the way that I found the >panel except for wiping some dust and dirt off of it. > > The HP 700i isn't part of it, it's picture just happened to be on the >same disk. > > Joe Hi Joe I'm not much help but it is a great looking panel. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat May 14 14:31:52 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:31:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anybody know what this front panel is for? In-Reply-To: <200505141915.MAA20194@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505141915.MAA20194@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4831.192.168.0.10.1116099112.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> The HP 700i isn't part of it, it's picture just happened to be on the >>same disk. >> >> Joe > > Hi Joe > I'm not much help but it is a great looking panel. > Dwight I was just thinking that - blinkenlight-tastic! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From news at computercollector.com Sat May 14 14:42:25 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:42:25 -0400 Subject: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? In-Reply-To: <018e01c55821$84a41cc0$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Message-ID: <200505141941.j4EJfbu8051713@dewey.classiccmp.org> I didn't record it, but that's okay, as it turned out to be not worth recording. The "contest" was ridiculous. The guys doing Morse Code had a direct connection to each other, with what appeared to be ordinary wireless computer routers. The kids doing text messaging were just using their cell phones, which means the signal had to travel through the theater walls, onto the cloud, and back into the theater. The contest was billed as "who is the fastest messager" but that's just silly because obviously the kids cannot control what the phone companies do. Granted, it was just for entertainment value, and succeeded at that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Blackburn Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:09 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? Probably a bit late, but could sum1 record it and post it for us non-US people that don't get it? Regards and 73 Charles 2E0GOM ARICC UK Co-ordinator - http://www.aricc.org -----Original Message----- From: Computer Collector Newsletter [mailto:news at computercollector.com] Sent: 13 May 2005 20:09 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: OT: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? >From the email list of the NJ Antique Radio Club: ------------------ Tonight, Friday May 13th, the Tonight Show will feature a message sending/receiving contest between a cell phone text messaging team and a Morse code team. The Morse code team will consist of Chip Margelli, K7JA and Ken Miller, K6CTW. The Tonight Show people called the store yesterday to see if we could come up with two fast Morse operators. Chip and Ken does a lot of contests and DXpeditions. Joe Drago, props manager for the show is KF6OCP. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 From jpl15 at panix.com Sat May 14 14:52:19 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honywell DPS-6 Rescued Message-ID: It loos like a Listmember has arranged to keep the DPS-6 safe from the Hammer and Blowtorch - I'll keep y'all informed on the progress of said rescue. Thanks to all who responded on this. Looks like it'll be safe and loved, now. Cheers John From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat May 14 15:24:03 2005 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> For any newbies to the group: 1. Don Maslin (San Diego, CA) collected what I believe is the largest and most complete archive of CP/M/S100 operating systems amongst us 'hobbyists'. 2. Don died 28 August 2004, leaving no plans for his archive. 3. Because his widow Winnie was distressed with the enquiries from those in our community regarding Don's archive (of which she knew nothing), after discussing this with her, with her heartfelt appreciation and agreement, it having been read to her before posting and sent to her in letter form, as Don's friend and collaborator of some 15 years, I published the following statement on ClassicCmp and comp.os.cpm on 22 September 2004: * "I have of course talked with his wife Winnie, and she has asked that people interested in Don's software archives and his hardware collection hold off on contact until further notice through this list. "Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, and I will personally guarantee that the archives will be duplicated and copies deposited with people and institutions which will honor the attitude that Don put into this effort - one of love for old stuff and and of service to the community. "In time his hardware collection will also be made available to the community. "I ask you to consider Mrs. Maslin's position and not attempt to intervene at this time." (You can see the full text in the ng or ClassicCmp archive.) * Many of you have enquired of me in private e-mail as to the status, many have made generous offers of time, energy, web hosting space, etc., and Winnie has been left free of bother. I NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT I CAN KEEP MY PERSONAL GUARANTEE THAT THE ARCHIVES WILL BE SAVED. I MADE THAT PROMISE IN GOOD FAITH, ON THE WORD OF WINNIE MASLIN. My intent was to locate the base archive, gather the materials not yet incorporated, make certain the structure was fully documented and sensibly usable, and write it off to CD-ROM - to be distributed to computer museums, universities, and to be hosted on web sites so that all could download the full archive, guaranteeing that it would never be lost. I seemed to be the logical one to do this - close by, long association with Don, his project having come out of the Dina-SIG which I founded, and a feeling for his work habits. I have talked with Winnie at least four times since Don died, and with a member of the family who has understanding of modern Windoze computers. I wrote an 'Appreciation' of Don for Sellam's last Vintage Computer Fair (did you use it, Sellam? you never told me), with a photo of Don and Winnie supplied by that member of the family. I HAVE GOTTEN NOWHERE. The weekend following Thanksgiving was suggested by a family member as good time to enter the garage and find the archive and take first stock of Don's 'stuff'. Winnie said no, she was too busy. Sometime around Christmas was again suggested as a good time, as a family member would be available to move things so that my wheelchair could get to Don's machine. Again, Winnie said no, she was too busy. She told me that she would contact me after the holidays, and that she still intended to have me do the job. When I had not heard from her at the end of February, I called again. She said she was angry with Don for never having told her of the major intellectual work of the last 15 years of his life, for having left no instructions. Of course, she had no interest in his computer life and he would not have tried to explain this to her. She knew that he sent and received disks - but never had the interest to ask about them. >From Winnie's view, Don left her with a burden that she does not want to deal with. In my last talk with her, I repeated my offer to inventory the contents of the garage, remove the contents to a storage facility of my own, do the archival work, get rid of the junk machines, and sell the valuable machines FOR HER ACCOUNT, ON MY OWN NICKEL. The sentences I recall most vividly from that conversation are "you will just have to wait until I decide. After all, what else can you do?" And, "I'll have Debbie [a family member who uses computers in her work life] call you sometime - but she's very busy." Her manner with me was unsupportable; I made an sgreement which kept her free from annoyance, and she will not honor her part. It's been 8 months now, time to keep her part of the agreement. No, she hasn't the slightest idea what an operating system or what the archive is and, despite extended explanations, will not learn or care. I believe she cannot understand that any adult could be interested in old computers. I believe the day will come when she will simply call a trash man and have her garage cleared. I do NOT believe that she will honor her committment to me. * So - where do we go from here? I have done all I can. I have agonized over this statement, wanting to release a progress report, unable to do so when there was no progress to report. But now, I have to do this. As I see it, there are four likely possibilities. 1. The community decide to inundate her with letters requesting her to allow me to do as I have said I would do. 2. A reputable member of the community (I would suggest Jay West) approach her and try to get her to see reason and work out some arrangement. 3. Allow Don's archive to go to the trash bin when she finally decides to have her garage cleaned out. 4. Allow the sharks to go after her, trying to get their hands on the stuff in Don's garage. * I AM NOT SUGGESTING ACTION AT THIS POINT. I AM SUGGESTING A DISCUSSION WITHIN THIS GROUP (WHERE DON SPENT MOST OF HIS ONLINE TIME), FOLLOWED BY A GROUP DECISION TO BE IMPLEMENTED. (For that purpose, I will be turning on individual messages instead of the digest form in which I read this group.) I WOULD STILL SAY THAT, UNTIL CLASSICCMP HAS ACHIEVED A CONSENSUS OF THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION, DO ***NOT*** CONTACT WINNIE MASLIN. I will send a copy of this message to Winnie by post. Vern Wright vern4wright at yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat May 14 15:27:41 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:27:41 +0100 Subject: Vax 4000/90 Message-ID: <26c11a64050514132776baf8d2@mail.gmail.com> I had a good buy on ebay. Friday night when I came home from the pub I must of been looking through ebay and bid ?25 on a 4000/90. I only remembered doing it when I got an email today to say I'd won. Should do that more often. Dan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 14 15:34:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:34:04 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428660BC.nailOR51Y90YV@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Vern - I appreciate all your efforts. Don and I traded floppies back and forth several times in the 90's, and I know that I only ever saw a tiny segment of all that he had archived. I wish I could offer you good advice but I have seen large academic and corporate archives disappear when a division is eliminated or folded into another entity, and all efforts of those who were truly interested came to naught. I hope, that because this is only a single person who has to be convinced, that your work efforts do pay off. Good luck! Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 14 15:35:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:35:42 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050514153019.05297670@mail> Thank you for your sincere efforts. Apart from our desire to preserve Don's disk collection and documents, I'm sure his wife is still dealing with grief and associated connections to all of his "stuff" being around. I am sure you can imagine that she may not be able to voice the feeling that if all of his stuff goes, it makes more concrete his absence. If there's any route to her slow reassurance and eventual willingness to pass along these possessions to others, it might be through her kids or other relatives. Did she have any? Are there other local or close friends who might be able to lend her advice? - John From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 14 15:42:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIVAC drum printer available in Czech Republic Message-ID: A fellow called me from Australia to tell me he has a UNIVAC drum printer that he needs to let go of. He said it's sentimentally important to him because apparently he acquired it and modified it so he could use it (on what machine he did not say). He was interested in getting some money for it if he could. I don't know the model or age. The printer is available in the Czech Republic, where this man is I believe moving back to. He asked that anyone interested contact his son in the Czech Republic, whose cell phone number is +420 606 75 0654. Please let me know if someone decides to rescue this. Perhaps one of the more formal computer museums in the EU? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 14 16:08:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:08:37 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <0IGI00A9U01VMWC1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone playing with the 8x300 > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:14:26 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi Allison > It is interesting that this application didn't use >that method of I/O addressing. All I/O devices are typical >bus type devices. It has a ROM connected to the instruction >addresses that selects the I/O based on the address being >executed. They don't seem to be taking advantage of the >read modify write I/O, either. The ports are all wired as >unidirectional ports. >Dwight > There were many ways to address IO on that beastie. The basic machine was very unlike most micros and there was no concept of addressing for ram in the data path. IO was almost an after thought in many ways. But, it was fast and being very microcoded it was useful for datain/process/dataout things that didn't require much or any intermediate storage. There were whole clases of appications it was useful for but often designers rather than and deal with it's peculiar implmentation just grew their own from the ground up like the RX02 and SMS disks. It's lifespan in the market was short due to parts like the 29116 and other faster and more commonplace micros. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 16:11:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:11:52 -0400 Subject: Today's garage sale findings Message-ID: Not much to report except a $25 table-top multispeed drill press (belts and pulleys, just like the big boys), and a free Atari 800 (CPU only, no PSU, disk...) with three broken keys from the same house. The first project on the drill press is entirely on-topic - manufacturing an ABS front panel for my Elf2K (http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm). Speaking of which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed _plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? I know I can pick up an 8.5"x11" paper label from any office supply place. I am hoping to find something that will resist water and abrasion (from raspy palms) better than paper. I'm also hoping to print some new keytops for the switches from an MSI 88/e keyboard (square, flush pushbuttons, with a lip and stick-on key labels). I am constructing a hex keypad for my Micro/Elf, and potentially for the Elf2K, and I don't have A-F to pick from. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 16:16:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:16:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 In-Reply-To: <0IGI00A9U01VMWC1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGI00A9U01VMWC1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/14/05, Allison wrote: > There were whole clases of appications it was useful for but often > designers rather than and deal with it's peculiar implmentation just grew > their own from the ground up like the RX02 and SMS disks. It's lifespan > in the market was short due to parts like the 29116 and other faster > and more commonplace micros. I've only ever seen them on MFM disk boards... I have one board from a Davong enclosure that I _think_ is of the Northstar-era with a CPU-bus interface of 40 or 50 pins (_not_ SCSI or SASI; yes, I'm sure), and another couple from the DEC Professional 350/380. Presumably one of the early designs that was kicked around in several forms was a disk controller, and future engineers (like at DEC) built on what came before. I'm sure there were other uses, but I've only ever seen them talking to disks. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Sat May 14 16:21:37 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:21:37 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 May 2005 21:27:41 BST." <26c11a64050514132776baf8d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200505142121.j4ELLbFA016301@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dan Williams wrote: >I had a good buy on ebay. Friday night when I came home from the pub I >must of been looking through ebay and bid ?25 on a 4000/90. I only >remembered doing it when I got an email today to say I'd won. Should >do that more often. umm. I should be so lucky. I stalked a 4000/500 for 5 days, had the auction won and got sniped at the last second for $2. mumble. don't like snipers. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 14 15:52:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:52:43 +0000 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1116103963.21460.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 13:24 -0700, Vernon Wright wrote: > 2. A reputable member of the community (I would > suggest Jay West) approach her and try to get her to see > reason and work out some arrangement. I'd suggest someone from a museum on that side of the pond - if approach by an official non-profit entity doesn't get the point across that it's the preservation of the archive that's important, then I doubt any private collectors will. It sounds like she doesn't want the trouble of dealing with it all, but doesn't want anyone potentially making a profit out of it (fair enough). Not that anyone would be making a profit, but it sounds like she has it in her head that someone might. Approach by a museum might persuade her, and be able to take over farming out of the preservation to appropriate people... (and disposing of assets on her behalf where appropriate) cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Sat May 14 16:45:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:45:58 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <1116103963.21460.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200505142144.j4ELidEV054906@dewey.classiccmp.org> Unfortunately, the San Diego Computer Museum (formerly the Computer Museum of America) has its own problems right now -- they need a new home. http://www.computer-museum.org/ Of course I can't speak for them. Vernon, maybe SDCM's David Weil can help. Sellam -- can CHM help? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 4:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: The Don Maslin Software Archive On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 13:24 -0700, Vernon Wright wrote: > 2. A reputable member of the community (I would suggest Jay West) > approach her and try to get her to see reason and work out some > arrangement. I'd suggest someone from a museum on that side of the pond - if approach by an official non-profit entity doesn't get the point across that it's the preservation of the archive that's important, then I doubt any private collectors will. It sounds like she doesn't want the trouble of dealing with it all, but doesn't want anyone potentially making a profit out of it (fair enough). Not that anyone would be making a profit, but it sounds like she has it in her head that someone might. Approach by a museum might persuade her, and be able to take over farming out of the preservation to appropriate people... (and disposing of assets on her behalf where appropriate) cheers Jules From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat May 14 17:01:55 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T 6300 for rescue Message-ID: <33184.127.0.0.1.1116108115.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> I was contacted by someone from the Washington DC area who has an AT&T PC 6300 that they need to get rid of. "I have an old, old AT&T PC6300 ("IBM clone") from about 1983. It has a monitor and keyboard and all necessary cables, plus lots of vintage software such as Quicken and PrintShop." They also indicated that they have tutorials for a lot of the software but that there are some intermittent display issues on an otherwise functional machine. Email Chad_LorenzNOSPAM at msn.com for details and to arrange pickup or transport. (Adjust the email for spam prevention) The usual disclaimers apply. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 14 17:23:15 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:23:15 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401c558d3$9f8674e0$3092d6d1@randylaptop> I had dealt with Don for years, sending him disks when I came accross them and getting them from him when needed. His archive is irreplaceable. If it would help we can create a list of signatures (or at least email addresses) of people that Don has helped in the past to show the significance. As far as Don's collection goes I personally believe the disks and disk images I sent to Don were for the good of all but after the data is rescued any monetary value is part of his estate. Don always advertized the archive as the DynaSig archive not as Don's personal cash cow. Don put sweat and effort in to help all and I for one am grateful, I hope his wife gets fair market value for his computers. It may be useful to start a new archive anyway, even if Don's archive is rescued it could be handy to have more ready. If people are interested maybe we can make a list of what we have to donate. Right now I am already working with others to archive several systems. Please remember archiving does not just mean the latest or best system but as many versions as possible even if you only prefer one specific version. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 14 17:55:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:55:46 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050514185546.00992630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:02 AM 5/14/05 -0400, you wrote: >The Palm isn't quite 10 years old yet, but at least this is cool >hand-held tech... > >I have this Rand McNally Navman/Streetfinder GPS that wraps around a >Palm III, and I have lost track of which wall wart charges it up. I have the same problem. Too many wall warts amd too many things that use them. I now TRY to label the WWs to tell what they're used for as I as get them. I also take a permanent marker and mark the voltage/current/polarity on every device so I know what to look for when I can't find the proper wall wart. Joe From kth at srv.net Sat May 14 18:19:36 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:19:36 -0600 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42868788.3050100@srv.net> Vernon Wright wrote: >For any newbies to the group: > >1. Don Maslin (San Diego, CA) collected what I >believe is the largest and most complete archive >of CP/M/S100 operating systems amongst us 'hobbyists'. > > It's beginning to sound like it might be easier to start a new archive than try to recover this one. Whatever is done, it should be easily distributed so a similiar problem does not happen again. If one site disappears, there should be several others ready to continue. Make all the images available over the internet, with instructions on how to create "physical" versions, as well as the software necessary to create them (source code preferred). Some of the disks would need special hardware to recreate, but that could be documented with the image, along with a list of anyone who has the necessary equipment and would be willing to recreate it for them. Set it up so that it is easy for anyone to supply such image files. Maybe at some point, Don's library could be merged back in. From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 14 18:51:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:51:53 -0500 Subject: Creating a new CP/M archive was Re: The Don Maslin Software Archive References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <42868788.3050100@srv.net> Message-ID: <000e01c558df$eb72ae80$0692d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Kevin Handy" Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 6:19 PM > Vernon Wright wrote: > >>For any newbies to the group: >> >>1. Don Maslin (San Diego, CA) collected what I believe is the largest and >>most complete archive of CP/M/S100 operating systems amongst us >>'hobbyists'. >> > It's beginning to sound like it might be easier to start a > new archive than try to recover this one. > > Whatever is done, it should be easily distributed so a > similiar problem does not happen again. If one site > disappears, there should be several others ready to > continue. > > Make all the images available over the internet, with > instructions on how to create "physical" versions, > as well as the software necessary to create them (source > code preferred). > > Some of the disks would need special hardware to > recreate, but that could be documented with the > image, along with a list of anyone who has the > necessary equipment and would be willing to > recreate it for them. > > Set it up so that it is easy for anyone to supply such > image files. > > Maybe at some point, Don's library could be merged > back in. Some disk formats are completely incompatible with standard PC hardware (such as Altair hard sectored disks). Some disk formats are incompatible with some PC hardware, most PC's do not support FM - Single Density, some systems used formats that were specific to WD controllers and not compatible to the NEC (and NEC clones) used by PC's. For formats compatible with PC controllers there is a utility called teledisk that is commonly used to backup/restore. Anadisk is another tool that can extract the data. For other formats there are a variety of methods including: Catweasel - handles anything. SVD - Semi-Virtual Diskette (http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/) that emulates a standard drive and requires a working classic computer to create the image. Serial port transfer of disk image - Dave Dunfield has one for NorthStar and one for Cromemco (http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/) There are plenty of other methods, the problem is finding/building the right hardware. If anyone has disks that they would like to donate I'd be happy to help by either walking you through creation of the disk image or for most formats you can send me a disk and I can create a disk image. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat May 14 19:05:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:05:10 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI Silent 700/Alpha Micro Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What a day! I've been on the go non-stop for over 12 hours but I've made some GREAT hauls! First I went to tiny hamfest in a nearby town. Sold a LOT of coax cables there even though I hadn't set up. People were asking for cables and I had a bunch of them in the car trunk that I was going to take to a friend that owns a surplus store so I kept going out to the car and bringing back cables! Then I meet a guy and got to talking to him about hobbies. When he found out that I was interested in vintage computers he asked if I was intersted in a Sage computer. (You KNOW what the answer to that was!) Then he said he also had a couple of Grid laptops in search of a new home. Then asked if I wanted an Apple. I said no but then he added that it was one made for business. I asked if it was an Apple III and he said yes! Then found out that he also had a HP 9845 that needed another home! I found out that he lived near where I was supposed to be headed so I made arrangements to meet him later in the afternoon. Then went to Melbourne and stopped at an electronics scrap yard that I frequent. I quickly found a TI Silent 700 terminal in a transit case. Then checked a second transit case and found a "Micro 5000" made by Harris Corp. I opened it up and whatta ya know! an intel 8008 CPU, eight 1101 RAMs and a bunch of 1702 EPROMS! Definitely a keeper!!! Searched through the scrap bins and found an industrial looking chassis that has the same computer in it. Wow! My first 8008 computers and TWO in one day! Found one more but it was almost completely gutted but I did get some more 1101 RAMS and some early 70s TTL ICs. (yippee! spare parts!) The industrial chassis are marked "50-0300 Simulator" but it looks like the same board in a different package. These look like some kind of data logging equipment. In the same pile I also found a Televideo 910 CRT Terminal Installation and User's Guide, a Silent 700 Operating Instructions book and some other docs. Looked around some more a found a buttload of the twist lock power plugs like those used on the old Tektronix equipment and some Intels. Needless to say I left happy. Next I went to the surplus store and sold him a trunk full of cables that I had picked up somewhere else for nothing, $$$$ :-) (Don't worry, he'll get it all back in sales. I'm down there at LEAST once a week!) While there I found a half a dozen keyboards with the switchs and keepcaps like those used on the Intel and a lot of other old SBCs. The same boards also have some nice gold and purple M6820s and 6821s. Also got a phone call while I was there from an old friend that had a bunch of old computer stuff that he'd found and he said he was going to be in my neighberhood later today. (Aren't cells phones great!) Also while there I found a package of Davong Multi-OS for the IBM PC and XT. I've never heard of this before. Does anyone know anything about it? Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the docs, a working HP 9845B, a stack of manuals for the 9845, a couple of HP catalogs, a promise of a pile of early Byte magazines when he can dig them out, two Grid laptops, a service manual for the HP Vectra LS-12 laptop computer (HP sent it to him by mistake. It's probably one of those service books that HP won't admit that they ever made.) He still "owes" me the Apple III and a second set of docs for the Sage :-) FINALLY went home and got to sit down for the first time since 6:30 AM! Then called up the guy that was visiting over in my neighberhood and went to see him. (Switched cars first since the first one was overflowing!) He gave me an AlphaMicro 2000M along with some other odds and ends. OH! and some original disks for my Rubicon CPM machine!! I found out that the company that he works for used to be an AM dealer/service center so I made him promise to look for any AM manuals, parts, etc left around there. He also knows of an AM that was JUST taken out of service and is complete and 100% functional. He's supposed to check and see if he can get it for me. That's it! Now I just have to unload two cars full of computers and find a way to sneak it all inside before the OL finds it! Happy Hunting! Joe From dmabry at mich.com Sat May 14 19:12:22 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:12:22 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI Silent 700/Alpha Micro In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <428693E6.8080309@mich.com> Joe R. wrote: > What a day! I've been on the go non-stop for over 12 hours but I've made >some GREAT hauls! First I went to tiny hamfest in a nearby town. Sold a LOT > > >snip... > > > That's it! Now I just have to unload two cars full of computers and find >a way to sneak it all inside before the OL finds it! > > Happy Hunting! > > Joe > > > Hey Joe! Nice haul. Good thing you have lots of room to store it all. ;) BTW, what GRiD laptops did you get? I have a few of them and used them a lot in the past. So if you need any info on them, let me know. It's fun to put boot roms into them. Dave From cb at mythtech.net Sat May 14 19:16:21 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:16:21 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: >I AM NOT SUGGESTING ACTION AT THIS POINT. I AM >SUGGESTING A DISCUSSION WITHIN THIS GROUP (WHERE DON >SPENT MOST OF HIS ONLINE TIME), FOLLOWED BY A GROUP >DECISION TO BE IMPLEMENTED. (For that purpose, I will >be turning on individual messages instead of the >digest >form in which I read this group.) My guess would be, she is still mourning the loss of her husband. The archive is all she has left of him. She may not understand it, but as long as it is in her garage, she still has something to hold onto. Death is a funny thing and makes people do equally funny things. She doesn't want to complete the transaction, because she isn't mentally ready to let the items go. But I also believe you are correct, eventually she will be ready, and if someone isn't standing at the door, she will just hire some local kid to haul it all to the trash. I think the best course of action is to discuss the matter with someone OTHER than Winnie, but who is going to be close enough all the time to keep a careful eye on the items. The Debbie person may be the best contact. Someone other than Winnie will not be in a mental state that keeps them from wanting to let the items go. So you will have a better chance of really pointing out the historical value of the items, and stress the importance that they not be thrown out. That person can then keep a careful passive eye on the items, and will know when the time is right to press for giving them to the classic computer community where they can be saved. -chris From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat May 14 19:46:53 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:46:53 -0500 Subject: VCF Gazette Volume 3 Issue 1 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 May 2005 01:25:04 -0700 (PDT) . Message-ID: <20050515004707.KUTG11479.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message , Vintage Comp uter Festival writes: >VCF Midwest "Lite" >------------------ > >VCF Midwest 1.0 will be held on Saturday, July 30th at Purdue >University in West Lafayette, Indiana. Doors will open at 9:30am, >with speakers beginning at 10:00am and exhibits starting at 12:00pm. >The event ends at 5:00pm. Admission is $5 per person. Oh bummer! I was looking forward to the fact that I'd be in the area that weekend for my niece's graduation. Unfortunately, it's on Saturday. I was planning to visit one of my alma maters and do VCF on Sunday. Oh well, maybe I'll be able to make it to St. Louis. Have fun everyone. Brian L. Stuart From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat May 14 19:51:22 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:51:22 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <200505142121.j4ELLbFA016301@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <26c11a64050514132776baf8d2@mail.gmail.com> <200505142121.j4ELLbFA016301@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 5/14/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > Dan Williams wrote: > >I had a good buy on ebay. Friday night when I came home from the pub I > >must of been looking through ebay and bid ?25 on a 4000/90. I only > >remembered doing it when I got an email today to say I'd won. Should > >do that more often. > > umm. I should be so lucky. I stalked a 4000/500 for 5 days, had the > auction won and got sniped at the last second for $2. He might have bid $500 more, but he needed to pay only $2 more than your bid. vax, 9000 > > mumble. don't like snipers. > > -brad > > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat May 14 19:57:17 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:57:17 -0500 Subject: Altair 8800 for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 May 2005 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) . <45779.127.0.0.1.1115851410.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20050515005731.KVVK11479.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <45779.127.0.0.1.1115851410.squirrel at www.vintage-computer.com>, "Eri k Klein" writes: >He is asking for "market value" for the machine. It will be shipped from >Memphis TN. Contact me (webmaster at vintage-NOSPAMcomputer.com - removing >the obvious) for his email address, etc. It's possible I might be interested. As it turns out I'm local to Memphis so would at least save shipping. Unfortunately, I'm not too up on what the "market value" would be for this configuration and am honestly a little worried that the A/C systems I've got to replace next week may prohibit any new toys. Still I'm loathe to pass up the chance at an Altair. So do you know if it's still available and do you have any idea what sort of price he's expecting? Thanks in advance, Brian L. Stuart From technobug at comcast.net Sat May 14 21:00:23 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:00:23 -0700 Subject: Drill Press Project (was: Today's garage sale findings) In-Reply-To: <200505150102.j4F12Ync058407@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505150102.j4F12Ync058407@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7B1BD2F4-1307-4263-9A24-43F5878D5175@comcast.net> On Sat, 14 May 2005 17:11:52 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: [...] > The first project on the drill press is entirely on-topic - > manufacturing an ABS front panel for my Elf2K > (http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm). Speaking of > which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed > _plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? I know I can > pick up an 8.5"x11" paper label from any office supply place. I am > hoping to find something that will resist water and abrasion (from > raspy palms) better than paper. I'm also hoping to print some new > keytops for the switches from an MSI 88/e keyboard (square, flush > pushbuttons, with a lip and stick-on key labels). I am constructing a > hex keypad for my Micro/Elf, and potentially for the Elf2K, and I > don't have A-F to pick from. > > Thanks, > > -ethan For prototypes I've had good luck printing on label paper and then using plastic laminate over the label. You can buy the laminate at any stationary store. The drawback, in my mind, is the glossy finish which detracts esthetically. For a more professional job I've begged and scrounged laminate from the local graphics companies. It comes in various levels of matte and is quite a bit thicker than the stationary store product. Good luck, CRC From h.godavari at shaw.ca Sat May 14 21:20:29 2005 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (harsha godavari) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:20:29 -0500 Subject: Honeywell DPS6 Clarification References: Message-ID: <4286B1ED.38D8DFA3@shaw.ca> John: I would love to give it a home but I am in Winnipeg Canada. What would you guestimate the cost of shipping? Of course some one closer might beat me to it, which is OK. Regards Harsha Godavari John Lawson wrote: > > If someone can just make a comittment on this, arrangements can then be > made - it's the complete lack of any interest that's driving it's > disposition currently. > > So if someone in interested, at all, in this system - write me please > and let's figure it out... I don't want to scrap the old girl any more > than you guys do. If we know that it's got a home, then the 'time element' > can be adjusted to fit your schedules. > > All somebody has to say is "Yes, I want the DPS-6." and then we can > contrive wild schemes to get it transported - as long as that is the case, > then the 'execution' can be stayed. > > Cheers > > John > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/05 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 22:46:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 23:46:47 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050514185546.00992630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050514185546.00992630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 5/14/05, Joe R. wrote: > I have the same problem. Too many wall warts amd too many things that > use them. I now TRY to label the WWs to tell what they're used for as I as > get them. I also take a permanent marker and mark the > voltage/current/polarity on every device so I know what to look for when I > can't find the proper wall wart. I frequently do that, but in this case, for some reason, I did not. :-( The good news is that it's a very flexible device and can take most of what gets thrown at it. I happened to have a fixed 6VDC car adapter with the right plug permanently attached, so I'm using that, but it turns out that if I find a 12V car lead with the right plug, that will work, too (13.6VDC and noisy). Now I just need a way to power the Palm III from an external source (the batteries don't last when the Palm stays on, as when it's being used for navigation)... I happen to supplement my paper aviation maps with my Palm and "Fly!", a PalmOS aviation navigation program, but I am limited to about 2 hours before having to swap batteries. I now carry one of those portable car jumper batteries to charge the GPS while I'm at my destination enjoying my $100 hamburger (so as to avoid attaching this rig to the airplane's power system), but even with that, the Palm itself doesn't last through a longer flight. At least I have the nav app and a GPS compass app written into Flash... I lose the maps when I lose power, but I can still use the Palm for location, bearing, and ground speed without a sync, after swapping batteries. If the old Rand McNally Palm V GPS happens to provide power to the Palm V when the GPS is on its tether, then that might be a better solution. For now, what I have works great, as long as I don't have to depend on it for long flights (thus the reliance on paper maps with GPS supplement) Cheers, -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 14 22:45:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:45:29 -0600 Subject: Honeywell DPS6 Clarification In-Reply-To: <4286B1ED.38D8DFA3@shaw.ca> References: <4286B1ED.38D8DFA3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4286C5D9.1020702@jetnet.ab.ca> harsha godavari wrote: >John: > > I would love to give it a home but I am in Winnipeg Canada. What >would you guestimate the cost of shipping? Of course some one closer >might beat me to it, which is OK. > >Regards >Harsha Godavari > > I suspect getting it thru customs would be your major problem. The cost of shipping to Canada I guess would be about 50% more. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat May 14 23:00:21 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:00:21 -0700 Subject: Making Fontpanel Labels Message-ID: <002a01c55902$a48d56a0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Ethan Dicks asked about label sheets for front panels. In the past you could get brushed aluminum material with a black coating that was etched away with printed circuit board chemicals. (Kepro made it but they are going out of business.) The front panels of SWTPC equipment used this material. I have not found anyone who does this in small quantizes (One or two units.) There is a fellow selling Altair front panel labels on eBay, so someone must do it. There is a mail order company here is Seattle, Rippedsheets.com, that sells satin finished aluminum sheet you can run through a inkjet printer. They sell a bunch of different types of material for inkjet and laser printers. http://www.rippedsheets.com/inkjet/alumi.html http://www.rippedsheets.com/inkjet/whitepoly.html I have not used it because it works with Epson printers (they keep the stock flat.) I used FrontPanelExpress to make the back panel of my TV Typewriter. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/CT_1024/Restore/BackPanel.htm Back in the 1960s and 1970s I would hand ink my panels with a Leroy Lettering Set and spray clear Krylon on them. A lot of work but they looked nice. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Today's garage sale findings > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Speaking of > which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed > _plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? I know I can > pick up an 8.5"x11" paper label from any office supply place. I am > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 14 22:58:47 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:58:47 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT - looking for power adapter info for Palm III GPS In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050514185546.00992630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4286C8F7.5080504@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: Now I just need a way to power the Palm III from an external source (the batteries don't last when the Palm stays on, as when it's being used for navigation)... I happen to supplement my paper aviation maps with my Palm and "Fly!", a PalmOS aviation navigation program, but I am limited to about 2 hours before having to swap batteries. I now carry one of those portable car jumper batteries to charge the GPS while I'm at my destination enjoying my $100 hamburger (so as to avoid attaching this rig to the airplane's power system), but even with that, the Palm itself doesn't last through a longer flight. At least I have the nav app and a GPS compass app written into Flash... I lose the maps when I lose power, but I can still use the Palm for location, bearing, and ground speed without a sync, after swapping batteries. Forget all that ... just follow the burger wrappers home. :) I was wondering if you get ample sun to say have a solar panel on the aircraft to keep a spare set of batteries at charge. BG micro has a 12V 70 ma solar panel for about $27. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat May 14 23:18:55 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:18:55 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI Silent 700/Alpha Micro References: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c55905$363e2c80$0100a8c0@screamer> I've got a Silent 700, and I need the pin-out info for the non-standard connector! From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 14 23:40:40 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 05:40:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making Fontpanel Labels Message-ID: <20050515044040.61838.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > There is a mail order company here is Seattle, Rippedsheets.com, > that sells satin finished aluminum sheet you can run through an > inkjet printer. Another method is to print the artwork for the panel out using a laser printer, not inkjet, and then iron it on. You don't even need to cover the finished artwork with a clear coat afterwards as it is quite a tough finish by itself. See this page .. http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm .. about half way down, the component layout for a board has been done using this method. I've used draughting film, like tracing paper but heavier, as that doesn't leave fibers embedded in the toner. It's an easy method to try out if you have a laser printer and an iron, best bit is if you do screw it up you can clean it off and try again, though without solvent cleaning it off can be hard work. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 14 23:44:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:44:29 -0400 Subject: Making Fontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: <002a01c55902$a48d56a0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <002a01c55902$a48d56a0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On 5/15/05, Michael Holley wrote: > Ethan Dicks asked about label sheets for front panels. Sort-of... I was asking in particular about adhesive plastic sheet that could be run through a printer... the switch panel (no LEDs) for the Elf2K is made up of a color printed label affixed to an ABS plate and drilled. This is different than the Poptronics Elf that has a metal plate, painted, with rub-on letters. I was hoping to make something more durable than an exposed paper label, especially a ink-jet-printed paper label that might get spotty with sweat from the user's hands, etc. > Back in the 1960s and 1970s I would hand ink my panels with a Leroy > Lettering Set and spray clear Krylon on them. A lot of work but they looked > nice. That's more like the Poptronics Elf, but that was the style of the day... -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:01:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:01:20 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com> <001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <20050515010120.2e216135.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:23 -0700 Paxton Hoag wrote: > There was a business in Beaverton who sold a simple board to run both > 5 1/4" drives and 8 inch drives on the Xerox 820 at the same time. > Evergreen technology??? Closed about 1990. I seem to remember it > wasn't hard to build. > > If anyone comes uiop with the info I would be intersted too as I still > have an 820. > > Paxton > Astoria, OR > I'm fairly certain that my BigBoard (I believe it was a clone of the Xerox 820, I know it's an exact workalike) has a 50 pin connector for the diskette drive. I haven't ever brought up this particular BigBoard, but I had another just like it in the 80's, which I used with 8" DSDD (720K) diskettes. As I've said before I have my BigBoard all squirreled away with complete docs including schematics. I'm involved in a BUNCH of spring housecleaning and hope to locate it in the near future. -Scott -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:04:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:04:51 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050515010451.0febe027.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:14:45 -0400 "James Fogg" wrote: > Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte > magazine discussing Moore's Law is still good? In talking with friends > here I found out that I know many of the editors and journalists who > worked for the early computer magazines, including Byte. I'm told I > can find about any edition I desire from this crowd if I ask. I'm not > going to try and rip off friends, but they were interested when I > mentioned it. > > I also found out I know the staff of Wayne Green's magazine empire > (mostly Ham Radio stuff). > Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte issues, what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he discusses the Z-180 bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can order the docs (supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been too cheap to do so. (anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to chime in) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:06:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:06:12 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> <575131af05051105592b3e344@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050515010612.2a4943b0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 11 May 2005 11:38:36 -0700 John Hogerhuis wrote: > "No Angela, I cannot throw it out!!! One day all of this crap will be > more valuable than we can possibly imagine." > > Yeah, that will work for me... > > -- John. > I wish it had worked for my father, who threw out a complete, from the beginning, collection of Datamation magazine back in aprox. 1985. -Scott From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 15 01:15:51 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:15:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com><003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER><20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com><001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050515010120.2e216135.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c55915$8f2d1990$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:01 AM > On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:29:23 -0700 > Paxton Hoag wrote: > >> There was a business in Beaverton who sold a simple board to run both >> 5 1/4" drives and 8 inch drives on the Xerox 820 at the same time. >> Evergreen technology??? Closed about 1990. I seem to remember it >> wasn't hard to build. >> >> If anyone comes uiop with the info I would be intersted too as I still >> have an 820. >> >> Paxton >> Astoria, OR >> > > I'm fairly certain that my BigBoard (I believe it was a clone of the > Xerox 820, I know it's an exact workalike) has a 50 pin connector for > the diskette drive. > > I haven't ever brought up this particular BigBoard, but I had another > just like it in the 80's, which I used with 8" DSDD (720K) diskettes. > > As I've said before I have my BigBoard all squirreled away with complete > docs including schematics. I'm involved in a BUNCH of spring > housecleaning and hope to locate it in the near future. > > -Scott The 820 is a clone of the BigBoard with some modifications. The BigBoard was cloned by many including KayPro. I have a large stack of Micro Cornucopia magazines that supported them I need to scan. If anyone can scan there docs and or send me disk images of the boot disks I'll post them on my site. This goes for any classic system, I have 7gb of webspace which should hold quite a few disk images :-) I am particularly interested in CP/M, Cromemco CDOS/CROMIX, and UCSD Pascal and related sources for CBIOS & utilities but I am happy to post most classic OS's (unless copyright holder objects). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 15 01:18:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:18:01 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> <20050515010451.0febe027.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000d01c55915$dc984880$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:04 AM > On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:14:45 -0400 > "James Fogg" wrote: > >> Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte >> magazine discussing Moore's Law is still good? In talking with friends >> here I found out that I know many of the editors and journalists who >> worked for the early computer magazines, including Byte. I'm told I >> can find about any edition I desire from this crowd if I ask. I'm not >> going to try and rip off friends, but they were interested when I >> mentioned it. >> >> I also found out I know the staff of Wayne Green's magazine empire >> (mostly Ham Radio stuff). >> > Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte issues, > what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he discusses the Z-180 > bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can order the docs > (supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been too cheap to do so. > > (anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to chime > in) As I said in one of your other posts if you get the disks/info I'll post it for all. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:20:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:20:54 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <20050515012054.6776b993.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 12 May 2005 21:53:28 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > I absolutely concur with John's conclusion: > > Academia, the elites or otherwise, saw the 'horrors' of goto and > > declared it an evil that was to be expunged from any language. The > > toolbox was diminished by this action in my humble opinion. Yet for > > us QBasic guys we still employ it. Boy does it get one out of a jam. > > Mimics real life doesn't it? > > I regard 'goto as the programming equivalent of the adjustable > spanner. There are often better tools to use, using it wrongly can get > you into real trouble, but it's rare to find a hacker who's not used > it (just as mo hardware guy will use an adjustable spanner when there > are better tools available, but I don't know of a serious hardware > hacker who doesn't have one in the toolbox...) > > -tony Heck, I even have an adjustable box-end wrench. *ducks* The folks who deplore GOTO are the 'Structured Programming' folks. Who have a lot of flavors and attempts at 'structured programming' behind them now, and keep chugging along. It's about sociable coding, as opposed to asocial 'solitary' coding. Which is important. But as an over-experienced Assembly Language programmer, I got into trouble in my 'Intro to C' course because I was in the habit of writing my own functions instead of using The Standard Library. -scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:24:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:24:10 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <42838EA2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42838EA2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050515012410.03deb990.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 12 May 2005 11:13:06 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >On Thu, 12 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > > > > > > >>At 10:26 AM 5/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Let's face it: the UCSD Pascal system just sucks. > >>> > >>> > >>Of course Pascal has its flaws, and they became more obvious as > >>people tried to use this designed-for-education language as a > >>application production language. In its best years, it was > >>a very useful packaging of an integrated editor, file system > >>and interactive compilation and almost-debugging. > >> > >> > > > >My comment was directed specifically at the UCSD Pascal system, and > >furthermore directly at the Apple version. Pascal as a language is > >not bad, and is probably the best language for doing what it was > >invented for, which is teaching high level programming. And of > >course, tons of useful production software has been developed in > >Pascal. > > > > > > > Pascal was punch card user input , C at least used TTY's :) > > When I took the 'intro to computer programming' course in college** , the punched-card language was FORTRAN. The 'interactive' programming language was FOCAL at a teletype. (** Hamline University, St. Paul, MN, 1978) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:35:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:35:43 -0500 Subject: stamps! In-Reply-To: <4284EF15.7090905@wavecable.com> References: <20050513081156.V836@localhost> <4284EF15.7090905@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <20050515013543.49866f71.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 13 May 2005 11:16:53 -0700 Scarletdown wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > Way OT! So sue me. > > > > Apparently the U.S.P.S. has issued some nerd stamps; von Neumann, > > Feynman and McClintock (biology) maybe more. Released 4 May I > > think. > > What? No Grace Hopper or Ada Byron? What manner of blasphemy is > this? :D At least Ada Lovelace (Byron?) got onto some of the 'Certificate of Authenticity' watermarks at Microsoft. From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 15 01:47:11 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:47:11 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <42838EA2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050515012410.03deb990.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002401c55919$efc692f0$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:24 AM > When I took the 'intro to computer programming' course in college** , > the punched-card language was FORTRAN. The 'interactive' programming > language was FOCAL at a teletype. > > > (** Hamline University, St. Paul, MN, 1978) For me all the computers I had access to used punch cards. The computers used 029 but the punches that were easiest to get to were 026's (with printed instructions for translating the differences posted on the punches). I was working in a computer-lab for an oil company that used 029 punches where I did most of my work. My problem is that while I was still in high-school I was working at the lab and was told that when the work was complete I had to stay in the lab until my shift was over but I could play with the computer if I wanted too. They used an XDS Sigma 5, I went to Xerox to buy the manuals for the computer to learn how to program it. I used Xerox's Fortran manual to learn programming which had a lot of extensions. When I took my first Fortran course I had to "un-learn" the extensions. What was really funny is that I knew nothing about programming and at the time thought all programs were written in Fortran. The manuals were very technical so I went to a book store to find an easier book. I found the perfect book, it was named "Basic Programming" :-) I was cheap so I translated the Basic program examples to Fortran. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 01:50:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:50:05 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <000d01c55915$dc984880$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0459DE@sbs.jdfogg.com> <20050515010451.0febe027.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000d01c55915$dc984880$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050515015005.0a39aa23.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 01:18:01 -0500 "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: > From: "Scott Stevens" > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:04 AM > > > > On Wed, 11 May 2005 07:14:45 -0400 > > "James Fogg" wrote: > > > >> Does anyone know if the Intel cash offer for a copy of the Byte > >> magazine discussing Moore's Law is still good? In talking with > >friends> here I found out that I know many of the editors and > >journalists who> worked for the early computer magazines, including > >Byte. I'm told I> can find about any edition I desire from this crowd > >if I ask. I'm not> going to try and rip off friends, but they were > >interested when I> mentioned it. > >> > >> I also found out I know the staff of Wayne Green's magazine empire > >> (mostly Ham Radio stuff). > >> > > Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte > > issues, what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he > > discusses the Z-180 bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can > > order the docs(supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been > > too cheap to do so. > > > > (anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to > > chime in) > > As I said in one of your other posts if you get the disks/info I'll > post it for all. > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > Well, Micromint wants $25 for the manual for the BCC180 and their website claims it is still available. I would be happy to scan it if/when I purchase a copy, but they'd have to be asked. I would think if they'd allow it to be scanned and made available, that I would have found it already in my scouring of the net for a copy. I'll certainly follow through and ask them for permission and submit it if I do buy the manual. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun May 15 03:13:11 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:13:11 +1000 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <002401c55919$efc692f0$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <42838EA2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050515012410.03deb990.chenmel@earthlink.net> <002401c55919$efc692f0$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <033662074b7996fb40b42821e6d7fc15@kerberos.davies.net.au> "goto considered harmful" is like all generalizations, a generalization :-) All good programmers (for the correct definition of good :-) know when to use a goto and how to avoid it at all other times. The problem is that it's hard to start your programming career as a good programmer so simple rules are developed to help improve programming style. Rules such as 1) If a routine is more than a page long (132x60?) then you should split it up into two or more procedures - this addresses complexity for new programmers 2) Make variable names descriptive - this keeps the RSI levels up. 3) Add lots of comments - more of 2! 4) Don't use gotos etc. Now I did a lot of programming in BLISS-10 and there are no gotos to use even when you really, really need them. This changed my programming style so much that when I learnt Python earlier this year I didn't realize there was no goto to use either - I hadn't needed to use on. Once you have spent time writing structured programs then you can write good assembler code that doesn't look like spaghetti though dinner tonight doesn't look like code either! I blame BASIC (and to a lesser extent FOCAL) for having line numbers on each line which tends to bredd programs and programmers who use gotos far too frequently. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From tomj at wps.com Sat May 14 20:07:06 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 In-Reply-To: <200505132129.OAA19519@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505132129.OAA19519@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050514180508.G781@localhost> On Fri, 13 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm looking at an application of the 8X300 by > Signetics. This is for a hard disk controller. > Is anyone fiddling with simmulators for this processor. > It seems like someone was a while back. > My current application is on an Olivetti M20 not > a TRS80. Having written code for it (long, long ago though) its a rather bizarre and hard to work with chip. In the real (physical) world it was extremely expensive to write code for -- code was in bipolar PROMs. Maybe there were PROM simulators but we didn't have one, so it was burn PROM, debug with scope. Ouch. Yuck. From tomj at wps.com Sat May 14 20:17:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050514181038.T781@localhost> On Sat, 14 May 2005, Vernon Wright wrote: > I AM NOT SUGGESTING ACTION AT THIS POINT. I AM > SUGGESTING A DISCUSSION WITHIN THIS GROUP (WHERE DON > SPENT MOST OF HIS ONLINE TIME), FOLLOWED BY A GROUP > DECISION TO BE IMPLEMENTED. (For that purpose, I will > be turning on individual messages instead of the > digest > form in which I read this group.) It's cause for serious personal reflection -- are you a packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? Packrat syndrome is serious, the cliche is a house filled with bundled newspapers and magazines stacked to the ceiling, that falls on the elderly 'rat, killing them, etc. This actually happened to the owner of the house some friends of mine bought. The guy have one million (1e6) antique railroad items (as inventoried by the club he belonged to post-death). It's not very funny; he was in ill health, lived alone, told no one what he had, etc, some thing happened to him as he was arriving home [he got hurt in some way I cannot recall], stumbled in his house, piles fell on him, his family found him a few days later but he died from his injuries. This is essentially what Don did. I know someone else with packratitis. I suspect it's rampant in this list. Make a goddamn will or just an informal letter, give a copy to your spousal unit/family/friends/enemies, post it on your website, whatever. From tomj at wps.com Sat May 14 20:01:04 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Koan programs (was RE: Infocom on PDP-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050514175934.A781@localhost> On Thu, 12 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone know where the term "Koan" originates? In the computer context, at MIT, as described in the jargon file: http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/~gjm11/jargon/jargappA.html (scroll down to "AI KOAN") One for a computer, in SCHEME: http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/users/dae/notes/scheme-koan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 15 06:13:31 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 07:13:31 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514181038.T781@localhost> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> Message-ID: <42872EDB.nail6RV1XJK8R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > are you a packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? Don was neither. He was a true archivist, in this case working for the CP/M community. Tim. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun May 15 06:24:47 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 04:24:47 -0700 Subject: SAGE pluggable unit on eBay Message-ID: <4287317F.3080404@pacbell.net> This appears to be a SAGE pluggable unit, though it looks like it has been partially stripped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196683042 eBay item 5196683042 (Ends May-15-05 11:21:43 PDT) - 1950's Vacuum Tube Computer From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun May 15 06:33:43 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:33:43 +0200 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050515133120.027d4640@pop.xs4all.nl> I just came across an original HP box which says HP64000 release 3203. It contains some manuals/docs and 2 tapes. Does anyone know what this is or what it is for ? If anybody wants it, its available, just make me an offer of some sort. Ow its from 1992 btw. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 15 06:22:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 07:22:55 -0400 Subject: UCSD p-code was Re: Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <000801c55915$8f2d1990$2a92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <200505111612.j4BGCJ80029428@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003d01c5564a$7ad2a140$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050512180308.GA14142@lucky.misty.com> <001e01c55731$b3b14380$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050515010120.2e216135.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050515072255.01528210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:15 AM 5/15/05 -0500, Randy wrote: >I am particularly interested in CP/M, Cromemco CDOS/CROMIX, and UCSD Pascal FWIW the Sage that I picked up yesterday runs UCSD p-code. I looked through the manuals last night and I found the original disks for it. Joe From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun May 15 07:43:41 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:43:41 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <20050515124340.ZYVP5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte issues, >what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he discusses the Z-180 >bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can order the docs >(supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been too cheap to do so. > >(anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to chime >in) Do you know which issues the BCC180 articals are in? I have a fairly complete collection of early byte from issue#1 (Sep75) to late 83 and a few issues after that... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 15 07:52:02 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:52:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <20050515125202.55316.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Do you know which issues the BCC180 articals are in? September and October 1985 Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 15 08:12:22 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:12:22 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Message from 9000 VAX of "Sat, 14 May 2005 20:51:22 EDT." Message-ID: <200505151312.j4FDCMhK028056@mwave.heeltoe.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > >He might have bid $500 more, but he needed to pay only $2 more than your bid. true. it's wasn't the $2 that irked me. it was coming in 5 seconds before the end of the auction. I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. -brad From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Sun May 15 08:24:18 2005 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:24:18 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <200505151312.j4FDCMhK028056@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first time. So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your highest bid? Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you think is your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says "well, if I could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay that". From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 15 08:58:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:58:00 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <0IGJ00AN9ARXMXD3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine > From: lee davison > Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:52:02 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk > >> Do you know which issues the BCC180 articals are in? > >September and October 1985 Nope that is the SB180 I have those. I'm also looking for the BCC180 info and the BCC is not the SB. Allison From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 15 09:10:03 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:10:03 -0400 Subject: Making Fontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003d01c55957$ca211640$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> What they do on model railroads control panels is to print on transparency film and then cover it with 3/32" plexiglas. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Making Fontpanel Labels On 5/15/05, Michael Holley wrote: > Ethan Dicks asked about label sheets for front panels. Sort-of... I was asking in particular about adhesive plastic sheet that could be run through a printer... the switch panel (no LEDs) for the Elf2K is made up of a color printed label affixed to an ABS plate and drilled. This is different than the Poptronics Elf that has a metal plate, painted, with rub-on letters. I was hoping to make something more durable than an exposed paper label, especially a ink-jet-printed paper label that might get spotty with sweat from the user's hands, etc. > Back in the 1960s and 1970s I would hand ink my panels with a Leroy > Lettering Set and spray clear Krylon on them. A lot of work but they > looked nice. That's more like the Poptronics Elf, but that was the style of the day... -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 15 09:40:31 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:40:31 -0400 Subject: Making Fontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: <003d01c55957$ca211640$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <003d01c55957$ca211640$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <42875F5F.nail81A1Y3XWL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > What they do on model railroads control panels is to print on > transparency film and then cover it with 3/32" plexiglass. This also describes the IMSAI front panel :-). I got the impression from Michael's post that he was looking for labeling the tops of pushbuttons. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 15 09:49:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:49:34 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGJ0045HD5VXTP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> I just aquired a Tandy T100, really fun little machine. one of the first steps is to exten the ram (24k more is possible) However.. The manual I have the schematic is nth generation and not very readable. I'm looking for a copy of the T100 (26-3801) Schematic as the text of the manual I ahve is readable. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun May 15 09:55:23 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:55:23 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <20050515145522.SHZQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>September and October 1985 > >Nope that is the SB180 I have those. I'm also looking for the BCC180 >info and the BCC is not the SB. I found a couple of references via Google that suggest that the BCC180 was covered by several articals in 1988 - unfortunately I have very little 1988 byte - but this info may help someone else find it. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From djg at drs-c4i.com Sun May 15 10:06:52 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:06:52 -0400 Subject: Today's garage sale findings Message-ID: <200505151506.j4FF6qK04060@drs-c4i.com> >Speaking of which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed >_plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? > What I did when I needed to make some durable signs was use transparency plastic, print a reverse image on them, and then used spray adhesive to glue them down. The reverse printing lets you glue them printed side down so the plastic protects the printing. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 15 10:07:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:07:39 -0400 Subject: Anyone playing with the 8x300 Message-ID: <0IGJ005IUE00AUH7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone playing with the 8x300 > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:07:06 -0700 (PDT) > To: > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 13 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I'm looking at an application of the 8X300 by >> Signetics. This is for a hard disk controller. >> Is anyone fiddling with simmulators for this processor. >> It seems like someone was a while back. >> My current application is on an Olivetti M20 not >> a TRS80. > >Having written code for it (long, long ago though) its a rather >bizarre and hard to work with chip. > >In the real (physical) world it was extremely expensive to write >code for -- code was in bipolar PROMs. Maybe there were PROM >simulators but we didn't have one, so it was burn PROM, debug with >scope. Ouch. Yuck. Even with a rom emulator it's nasty. I played with one I have for a while just because. It's whole concept must have originated to solve a particular problem and was then vended out. It's not suited at all to general computational use. For those interested in microprogramming and building their own computers from the instruction set up... http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ Follow links around for many differnt CPUs. http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html This is an interesting link as it describes how to hang a IDE disk off a 8255 PPI, worth looking at. Allison Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 10:18:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:18:03 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050514181038.T781@localhost> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> Message-ID: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 14 May 2005 18:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 14 May 2005, Vernon Wright wrote: > > > I AM NOT SUGGESTING ACTION AT THIS POINT. I AM > > SUGGESTING A DISCUSSION WITHIN THIS GROUP (WHERE DON > > SPENT MOST OF HIS ONLINE TIME), FOLLOWED BY A GROUP > > DECISION TO BE IMPLEMENTED. (For that purpose, I will > > be turning on individual messages instead of the > > digest > > form in which I read this group.) > > It's cause for serious personal reflection -- are you a > packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? > > Packrat syndrome is serious, the cliche is a house filled with > bundled newspapers and magazines stacked to the ceiling, that > falls on the elderly 'rat, killing them, etc. > > This actually happened to the owner of the house some friends of > mine bought. The guy have one million (1e6) antique railroad items > (as inventoried by the club he belonged to post-death). > > It's not very funny; he was in ill health, lived alone, told no > one what he had, etc, some thing happened to him as he was > arriving home [he got hurt in some way I cannot recall], stumbled > in his house, piles fell on him, his family found him a few days > later but he died from his injuries. > > This is essentially what Don did. I know someone else with > packratitis. I suspect it's rampant in this list. > > Make a goddamn will or just an informal letter, give a copy to > your spousal unit/family/friends/enemies, post it on your website, > whatever. > I guess I'm trying to figure out what your 'packrat vs. collector' comment at the front has to do with the rest of your comment. Is there some higher, more-esteemed thing called a 'collector' that is superior to a packrat? I agree that organized and managed collections are better. I just don't know where to draw the line without coming off like we're labeling (self-labeling) ourselves with some sort of clinical disorder and/or stepping up onto a pedestal. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 10:21:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:21:54 -0500 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: References: <200505151312.j4FDCMhK028056@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20050515102154.0a5fde43.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:24:18 -0400 "Bob Lafleur" wrote: > > I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. > > In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first > time. So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your > highest bid? > > Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you > think is your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain > says "well, if I could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be > willing to pay that". > People who go into eBay with the mindset of a traditional auction get frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the close of the auction is immaterial. That's just how it works. I prefer 'real' auctions where you can camp on an item, watch the price climb and can make at-the-second decisions how high to go. But that isn't eBay. And eBay isn't better or worse than it, just different. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 15 10:43:31 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:43:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for eBAY Bidder Message-ID: <007f01c55964$da297980$34406b43@66067007> Is "energydynamics" on this list? I had the bid on the "IBM 1401 Data Processing System Operator's Guide from the IBM Systems Reference Library. It is dated March 1965 (major revision) with 151 pages" that ends today and do not want to get into a bidding war with a list member. Contact me off-list please. From cmurray at eagle.ca Sun May 15 11:46:56 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:46:56 -0500 Subject: 'goto' - the debate between 'human' vs 'machine' programming Message-ID: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> Scott wrote in response to: "I absolutely concur with John's conclusion: Academia, the elites or otherwise, saw the 'horrors' of goto and declared it an evil that was to be expunged from any language. The toolbox was diminished by this action in my humble opinion. Yet for us QBasic guys we still employ it. Boy does it get one out of a jam. Mimics real life doesn't it?" "I regard 'goto as the programming equivalent of the adjustable spanner. There are often better tools to use, using it wrongly can get you into real trouble, but it's rare to find a hacker who's not used it (just as mo hardware guy will use an adjustable spanner when there are better tools available, but I don't know of a serious hardware hacker who doesn't have one in the toolbox...) -tony " Heck, I even have an adjustable box-end wrench. *ducks* The folks who deplore GOTO are the 'Structured Programming' folks. Who have a lot of flavors and attempts at 'structured programming' behind them now, and keep chugging along. It's about sociable coding, as opposed to asocial 'solitary' coding. Which is important. But as an over-experienced Assembly Language programmer, I got into trouble in my 'Intro to C' course because I was in the habit of writing my own functions instead of using The Standard Library. -scott I'm not sure whether programming is done to benefit people or to make machines work better. Since computers are seldom user-friendly, they were'nt but now are easier to use thanks to GUIs, we have to ask then was is programming for? I remember programming in a few-line BASICs, well even further back - soldering a kit and program in strict machine-coding - and I wanted the computer to do certain tasks. I'm not sure these tasks were of any particular benefit done on an expensive early computer and they were that! I could do the same thing with pen & paper or a calculator, not spend time writing a few lines of code and hope I didn't make a mistake!!! The calculator was programmed to work efficiently and little or no programming was needed by me to make it work. Social coding here is effective in the sense it solves a problem for me. The machine works in an excellent fashion as a solitary instrument. In this case it benefits me. Is this the true value of programming and using a 'goto' to get out of a jam so to speak can be very effective. Works in real life, particularly useful around Belgian horses. Can this be wrong? Computing forever! Murray From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 10:52:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:52:33 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <20050515124340.ZYVP5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050515124340.ZYVP5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050515105233.71274b11.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 08:43:41 -0400 Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte > >issues, what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he discusses > >the Z-180 bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can order the > >docs(supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been too cheap to > >do so. > > > >(anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to > >chime in) > > Do you know which issues the BCC180 articals are in? > I have a fairly complete collection of early byte from issue#1 (Sep75) > to late 83 and a few issues after that... > The BCC180 seems to have been introduced in Byte Jan-March 1988. The SB180, which the BCC180 was based on, is in Byte Sept-Oct 1985. This appears to be out the range of your collection. Thanks for offering. From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 15 11:03:13 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:03:13 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <20050515105233.71274b11.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003e01c55967$9ab342b0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I also mave most BYTEs from issue #1 through the end of 1987. So, it's out of range for me, too. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Stevens Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Moore's Law/Byte magazine On Sun, 15 May 2005 08:43:41 -0400 Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Wow, if you're that well-connected and can gain access to Byte > >issues, what I need are the Steve Ciarcia articles where he discusses > >the Z-180 bases BCC180. I aquired one recently and can order the > >docs(supposedly) from Micromint, but thus far have been too cheap to > >do so. > > > >(anybody else with info on this single board machine feel free to > >chime in) > > Do you know which issues the BCC180 articals are in? > I have a fairly complete collection of early byte from issue#1 (Sep75) > to late 83 and a few issues after that... > The BCC180 seems to have been introduced in Byte Jan-March 1988. The SB180, which the BCC180 was based on, is in Byte Sept-Oct 1985. This appears to be out the range of your collection. Thanks for offering. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 15 12:04:19 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:04:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <20050515170419.25244.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Nope that is the SB180 I have those. I'm also looking > for the BCC180 info and the BCC is not the SB. Ok, try January-March 1988. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 12:03:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [VCF-OZ] Monash Museum of Computing History (fwd) Message-ID: FYI... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:38:05 +1000 From: Michael Borthwick Reply-To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com Subject: [VCF-OZ] Monash Museum of Computing History This new museum opened last Wednesday at Monash Caulfield. It's in Building B and consists of several large display cases showing a timeline of computing history including displays of minicomputers and personal computers. A feature of the museum is the Ferranti Sirius which was Monash's first computer and the only one for some time. A crane was required to lift up to the level the museum is on. The museum would be an ideal location to organise a retro computing get together later in year, possibly making use of the lecture theatres. I worked on the project creating a multimedia system in the Ferranti exhibit which incorporates an LCD TV showing a great internal promotion film made about the computer by one of its UK purchasers. Cheers, Mike From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 15 12:59:07 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:59:07 -0500 Subject: [VCF-OZ] Monash Museum of Computing History (fwd) References: Message-ID: <00b401c55977$cba62210$34406b43@66067007> Thanks for the tip, found some pic's on the web of their collection. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:03 PM Subject: [VCF-OZ] Monash Museum of Computing History (fwd) > > FYI... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:38:05 +1000 > From: Michael Borthwick > Reply-To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com > To: VCF-OZ at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [VCF-OZ] Monash Museum of Computing History > > This new museum opened last Wednesday at Monash Caulfield. It's in > Building B and consists of several large display cases showing a > timeline of computing history including displays of minicomputers and > personal computers. > > A feature of the museum is the Ferranti Sirius which was Monash's > first computer and the only one for some time. A crane was required > to lift up to the level the museum is on. > > The museum would be an ideal location to organise a retro computing > get together later in year, possibly making use of the lecture theatres. > > I worked on the project creating a multimedia system in the Ferranti > exhibit which incorporates an LCD TV showing a great internal > promotion film made about the computer by one of its UK purchasers. > > Cheers, > > Mike > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 15 13:38:23 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for Grant Writer Message-ID: <00d001c5597d$477dd4a0$34406b43@66067007> Anyone on the list a professional grant writer or have written successful grants for operating expenses? I need help big time to keep the museum going with some grant funds. If you could share a copy of a successful grant for operating funds it would be of great help. Thanks Reply off list. John From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun May 15 13:42:25 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:42:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: Looking for Grant Writer Message-ID: <00e001c5597d$d7c1e600$34406b43@66067007> Sending it to both ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:38 PM Subject: Looking for Grant Writer > Anyone on the list a professional grant writer or have written successful > grants for operating expenses? I need help big time to keep the museum > going with some grant funds. If you could share a copy of a successful > grant for operating funds it would be of great help. Thanks Reply off > list. John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun May 15 13:52:19 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:52:19 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive In-Reply-To: <200505151700.j4FH0M6e066488@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> There are some aspects of your post which bother me. In particular: "Her manner with me was unsupportable; I made an agreement which kept her free from annoyance, and she will not honor her part." There was a "request", but not really an "agreement"; and she owes no one anything, nor do we have any right to expect any consideration from her. In approaching her, I think that the view that must be taken has to be based on: 1. This was Don's legacy 2. This was what Don would have wanted I think that any other approach is likely to come off as self-serving, and is unlikely to produce any positive outcome. I also think that "deluging her with requests" is likely to "piss her off", and risk creating a situation in which she says, ultimately, "I called a trash collector and had it all hauled away so that none of you would have any further reason to contact me about this". I don't feel that there is any way of getting through to her other than by a close personal friend. I don't think that anyone who she doesn't know personally is likely to be able to induce her to take any action whatsoever. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun May 15 14:26:46 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SAGE pluggable unit on eBay In-Reply-To: <4287317F.3080404@pacbell.net> References: <4287317F.3080404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, William Maddox wrote: > This appears to be a SAGE pluggable unit, though it looks like it has been > partially stripped. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196683042 > eBay item 5196683042 (Ends May-15-05 11:21:43 PDT) - 1950's Vacuum Tube > Computer I'm interested in anything from the SAGE system, and this does look like one of the PUs (Pluggable Units) with the handle removed. However, I didn't see it until the auction was over (no one bid on it), and one of the seller's statements bothers me: "Do not email or call me with any questions about the item. Emails and calls will not be answered." Here's a picture of a SAGE PU for comparison: http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/SAGEPU.JPG And another of a PU in the testing station: http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/SGTESTER.JPG Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 15 14:38:18 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:38:18 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 May 2005 10:21:54 CDT." <20050515102154.0a5fde43.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200505151938.j4FJcIDF009984@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Stevens wrote: >People who go into eBay with the mindset of a traditional auction get >frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest >amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the >close of the auction is immaterial. I guess I don't see it that way. What you said is factually correct, but I've noticed that when I am bidding against other hobbiests (mostly people on this list), they don't snipe each other. In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a gentlemanly agreement not to snipe each other. personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against another list member. am I a fool? (ok, don't answer that :-) in auto racing people who play dirty often find themselves up the creek without a friend, just when they need one... -brad From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun May 15 14:40:41 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:40:41 -0400 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <20050515102154.0a5fde43.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200505151312.j4FDCMhK028056@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050515102154.0a5fde43.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 5/15/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:24:18 -0400 > "Bob Lafleur" wrote: > > > > I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. > > > > In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first > > time. So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your > > highest bid? > > > > Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you > > think is your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain > > says "well, if I could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be > > willing to pay that". > > > > People who go into eBay with the mindset of a traditional auction get > frustrated with the sniping phenomenon. You have to bid your highest > amount up front. Wether 'up front' is 2 days or two seconds before the > close of the auction is immaterial. That's just how it works. I prefer > 'real' auctions where you can camp on an item, watch the price climb and > can make at-the-second decisions how high to go. But that isn't eBay. > And eBay isn't better or worse than it, just different. And that is Ubid.com. I know that people are mad about their system: an automatic extension of 1 hour after the last bid. vax, 9000 > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 15 14:55:29 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:55:29 +0100 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <200505151938.j4FJcIDF009984@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <009b01c55988$0d44bc80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Brad Parker wrote: > In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a > gentlemanly agreement not to snipe each other. > > personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against > another list member. am I a fool? I don't think I'd ever deliberately bid against another list member (or anyone else I know - I've held off bidding on auctions where the current high bidder is someone who's previously bought from me!). But if I happen to set up a sniping tool to bid on something it's because I don't want the hassle of following the auction myself. In that case you'll not only be bid against, but find it was done with a snipe! FWIW I lose more than I win with tools - because others obviously value stuff more than I do (or are not willing to play the long game and try again when the next one comes up). So really everyone still has an equal chance - open with a low bid to declare interest and then load up the sniping tool with your maximum bid. Just like a real auction but without the emotion :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 15 15:00:01 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:00:01 +0200 Subject: HP 9000/300 In-Reply-To: References: <42852FDF.C5D7B1B8@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050515220001.1be0ff32.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 14 May 2005 10:46:28 -0400 (EDT) "Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez" wrote: > > Since I dont' really know much about HP equipment, is > > this a worthwhile system to play with? > Yes. Seconded. > You can run netbsd on it or HPUX. or 4.4BSD-Lite for some classic BSD experience. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 15 15:07:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:07:02 -0400 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050515133120.027d4640@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050515160702.015f4cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The HP 64000 is a Logic Developement System. The name is a bit misleading, it's actually a microcomputer developement system. The 64000s are big brutes! The only peaple that I recall that collect them are Frank McConnal and Dave somebody out in Texas. However somebody should grab these manuals and preserve them since docs are always harder to find than the hardware. Joe At 01:33 PM 5/15/05 +0200, you wrote: >I just came across an original HP box which says HP64000 release 3203. >It contains some manuals/docs and 2 tapes. Does anyone know what this is or >what it is for ? > >If anybody wants it, its available, just make me an offer of some sort. >Ow its from 1992 btw. > >Stefan. > > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > > From vrs at msn.com Sun May 15 15:25:27 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:25:27 -0700 Subject: Vax 4000/90 References: <200505151938.j4FJcIDF009984@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > Scott Stevens wrote: > I guess I don't see it that way. What you said is factually correct, > but I've noticed that when I am bidding against other hobbiests (mostly > people on this list), they don't snipe each other. > > In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a gentlemanly > agreement not to snipe each other. > > personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against another list > member. am I a fool? My feeling is that, if I have a genuine need for an item, I will go for it, unless I know it is against someone else with a greater need. If I am just collecting stuff against a rainy day, I will assume that whoever bid on it actually needs it, and not bid against them. Most of my bidding these days is rainy day stuff, or stuff I don't want to see scrapped. (So I bid the minimum, with a snipe.) Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in the auction (in case anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then enter a snipe for the actual amount I am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the same system.) The rules are set up so that all the action will be in the last minute. There's no way a user sitting at a workstation can follow the action in the last 30 seconds, so skip the stress-out. You can bid early (which tips your hand), or download the sniping software. I like the sniping software, because you can enter your bid, then forget about it until the auction is over. Vince From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun May 15 16:10:25 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:10:25 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive In-Reply-To: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4287BAC1.nailC541MAPQ4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > This was what Don would have wanted Is this obvious? I pestered Don (semi-politely) several times about making an off-site backup of the archives, and several times he politely told me that this would be a good thing but for arcane reasons wasn't possible. I will try to recover my E-mails from the early-mid-90's to see what the details were. Tim. P.S. I fully agree that it is what *I* wanted! But I learned a while back that projecting my wants onto others doesn't always work. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 15:40:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:40:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Creating a new CP/M archive was Re: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <000e01c558df$eb72ae80$0692d6d1@randylaptop> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 14, 5 06:51:53 pm Message-ID: > Some disk formats are completely incompatible with standard PC hardware > (such as Altair hard sectored disks). Yes, but provided the file format is docuemnted, there's always a possibility womebody can make the special hardware, or use the target machine to write the disk (with the data sent, say, over an RS232 link). > > Some disk formats are incompatible with some PC hardware, most PC's do not > support FM - Single Density, some systems used formats that were specific to > WD controllers and not compatible to the NEC (and NEC clones) used by PC's. > > For formats compatible with PC controllers there is a utility called > teledisk that is commonly used to backup/restore. Anadisk is another tool > that can extract the data. I would strongly discourage the use of Teledisk for this. The file format is proprietary, and although there have been some attempts to reverse-engineer it, AFAIK the full details aren't know (particularly of Teledisk compressed files). If you use Teledisk, you _have_ to use an MS-DOS PC to re-write the data to a physical disk (and a PC with the appropriate type of floppy drive), you _have_ to get Teledisk (last time I checked, it wasn't free, it was shareware, but you could no longer register it...). etc. If your PC can't write FM formats, then you're stuck (even if you've got 100 machines that _can_ write such formats, and which can get data from a PC disk or similar). Any such archive must be made as accessible as possible, and that means using documented file formats. To be honest, I'd rather have to write my own software than do battle with a proprietary PC program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 15:45:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:45:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 14, 5 08:05:10 pm Message-ID: > Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave > me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), and the _excellent_ owner's manual with full schematics in the back. What I don't have is an OS for it :-(. If anyone has the set of original disks that came with such a machine, I am looking for copies (IIRC it was the UCSD p-system, with some Sage-specific utilities). > docs, a working HP 9845B, a stack of manuals for the 9845, a couple of HP There's a 9845 in many bits on my bench at the moment. %deity it's a complicated machine.... I think I just about understand the buses now (and evne that's complicated -- there are 2 main buses, essentially 'language' ROMs and memory on one, 'peripheral' ROMs and memory on the other (one ROM drawer is on each bus), both processors have access to both buses, the video system can access both buses via the peripheral processor's buffers, etc. Evne the PSU is about twice as complex as you'd expect! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 16:11:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:11:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGJ0045HD5VXTP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 15, 5 10:49:34 am Message-ID: > > > I just aquired a Tandy T100, really fun little machine. > one of the first steps is to exten the ram (24k more is possible) >From what I remember, the original RAM consisted of little ceramic substrates with 4 off 2K*8 static RAMs soldered to them. There were separate chip select pins for each RAM, all the address decoding was on the mainboard. These modules were 0.7" (I think) wide. But it's possible, with a bit of careful bending, to get a normal 0.6" wide IC into the socket. You can put a nromal 8K*8 static RAM into the top 12 pins of each side of the socket (wiith pins 1,2,27,28 of the RAM haning off the end) and most of the signals match up. I did this in my Model 100. I then did some cut-n-jumper mods to get A11 and A12 straight off the address bus, to modify the address decoder appropriately (while still keeping the original 8K module in the lowest address possition), and to handle the power-down memory protection. I should still have notes on this, but I was working on a UK model, which doesn't have the intenral modem, and where different sections of ICs are used in some positions (what I mean here, is that if the US schematic shows, say, U6a as a '00 NAND gate in some position in the circuit, then the UK version still uses a '00 NAND gate, but it might well be U21c (the component references are totally ficticious here!)). -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 16:40:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <20050515015005.0a39aa23.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Well, Micromint wants $25 for the manual for the BCC180 and their > website claims it is still available. I would be happy to scan it > if/when I purchase a copy, but they'd have to be asked. I would think > if they'd allow it to be scanned and made available, that I would have > found it already in my scouring of the net for a copy. I'll certainly > follow through and ask them for permission and submit it if I do buy the > manual. Um, Scott, Micromint (the copyright holder) currently sells copies of the documents for $25. That should probably tell you what their answer is going to be if you ask for permission to scan it and distribute it for free. This should also inform you as to the propriety of scanning it and "making it available". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun May 15 16:51:33 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:51:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Sirius 1/Victor 9000 boot disks In-Reply-To: References: <20050515015005.0a39aa23.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3780.192.168.0.10.1116193893.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Evening folks, Now that I've rescued my Sirius 1 from the land of the escaping magic smoke I'm on the lookout for bootdisks to at least test the rest of the hardware. Has anyone got copies I can pay for? In other news, someone has contacted me wanting to send a Victor 9000 over to the UK but I reckon the postage will be too much. Any interest that side of the pond? Ta :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 16:50:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <200505151312.j4FDCMhK028056@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: > > > >He might have bid $500 more, but he needed to pay only $2 more than your bid. > > true. it's wasn't the $2 that irked me. it was coming in 5 seconds > before the end of the auction. > > I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. Look, this is eBay we're talking about. This is nothing new. Try the VCM if you don't like sniping. And encourage sellers who have stuff you like to use it instead of eBay. Then you have a much better marketplace. If sniping was bad for eBay they would have made it irrelevant a long time ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 16:52:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Bob Lafleur wrote: > > I don't mind being out bid. I mind not being able to big again. > > In "theory", you're supposed to put in your absolute maximum the first time. > So why would you WANT to bid again if you've already put in your highest > bid? > > Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you think is > your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says "well, if I > could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay that". Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the very reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses human psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect is that it results in INFLATED PRICES). (I don't want any arguments. It's a fact. Go do something useful instead of replying to this message ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 16:54:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today's garage sale findings In-Reply-To: <200505151506.j4FF6qK04060@drs-c4i.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, David Gesswein wrote: > >Speaking of which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed > >_plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? > > > What I did when I needed to make some durable signs was use transparency > plastic, print a reverse image on them, and then used spray adhesive > to glue them down. The reverse printing lets you glue them printed side > down so the plastic protects the printing. Seriously trick idea! Nice thinking :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 16:55:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > I guess I'm trying to figure out what your 'packrat vs. collector' > comment at the front has to do with the rest of your comment. Is there > some higher, more-esteemed thing called a 'collector' that is superior > to a packrat? I agree that organized and managed collections are > better. I just don't know where to draw the line without coming off > like we're labeling (self-labeling) ourselves with some sort of clinical > disorder and/or stepping up onto a pedestal. A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sun May 15 16:59:45 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:59:45 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive References: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <015101c55999$683e2a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I am coming to this thread a bit late. Funny, on this list 1 day is 'really really late'. In other venues there are other timescales. I find these two posts hold my same sentiments, and should be studied and understood completely. From: chris Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:16 PM > I think the best course of action is to discuss the matter with someone > OTHER than Winnie, but who is going to be close enough ... From: Barry Watzman Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 2:52 PM > I also think that "deluging her with requests" is likely to ... > risk creating a situation ... I really have little to add, just patience, and, try to know all negative emotions that you may feel and transmit. Internal feelings like "Hate to lose this" and "The longer this takes, the more time it'll cost me" are both negatives. The idea is to leave the message "Please don't lose Don's collection" and trust her with that message. You might find some way to communicate with her that is totally devoid of any mention of the collection, and then let her mention it in her time. Failing that, it's on to Chris's idea to go to the family around her. John A. -- San Diego resident 1985-86 Recipient of Don's graces (some CP/M software) one time. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 15 17:00:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:00:50 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050515180050.01545100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:45 PM 5/15/05 +0100, you wrote: >> Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave >> me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the > >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), That's like mine but it only has one HH drive. Any idea if these will handle four floppy drives? The manual says that it could handle four Winchester drives. IF you have the Winchester board. I don't :-( It doesn't say about the floppy drives other than you could get two drives in it. >and the _excellent_ owner's manual with full schematics in the back. What >I don't have is an OS for it :-(. If anyone has the set of original disks >that came with such a machine, I am looking for copies (IIRC it was the >UCSD p-system, with some Sage-specific utilities). You're in luck. I got all four original disks. I haven't looked closely at the manuals yet but they look like they're pretty complete. I got five manuals with it: Assembler/SDT, p-System Program Developement (I think this compiles to native code and not just p-code), p-System Operating System, Getting Started/Word 7 and Technical Manual. In one of them it mentioned that there was also a Service manual and a Operating System Architecture Manual. I have the Assembler for it and I'm pretty sure that it includes the Pascal Compiler. They say that they also had Fortran and BASIC and CPM-68k for it so I'm on the look out for those. > >> docs, a working HP 9845B, a stack of manuals for the 9845, a couple of HP > >There's a 9845 in many bits on my bench at the moment. %deity it's a >complicated machine.... I think I just about understand the buses now >(and evne that's complicated -- there are 2 main buses, essentially >'language' ROMs and memory on one, 'peripheral' ROMs and memory on the >other (one ROM drawer is on each bus), both processors have access to >both buses, the video system can access both buses via the peripheral >processor's buffers, etc. Evne the PSU is about twice as complex as you'd >expect! I know! I have a several of them and I've already worked on a couple of them. One was easy, the huge inductor in the power supply had been knocked loose and I just had to solder it back on. Joe > >-tony > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 17:01:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > And that is Ubid.com. I know that people are mad about their system: > an automatic extension of 1 hour after the last bid. This is what the VCM does. Plain and simple, it makes sniping ineffective. Sniping only benefits the seller. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 15 17:03:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: <009b01c55988$0d44bc80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > > In my twisted little world I sort of felt there was a > > gentlemanly agreement not to snipe each other. > > > > personally I would concider it bad mojo to snipe against > > another list member. am I a fool? > > I don't think I'd ever deliberately bid against another > list member (or anyone else I know - I've held off > bidding on auctions where the current high bidder is > someone who's previously bought from me!). But if I > happen to set up a sniping tool to bid on something > it's because I don't want the hassle of following > the auction myself. In that case you'll not only > be bid against, but find it was done with a snipe! > > FWIW I lose more than I win with tools - because > others obviously value stuff more than I do (or > are not willing to play the long game and try > again when the next one comes up). So really > everyone still has an equal chance - open with > a low bid to declare interest and then load > up the sniping tool with your maximum bid. Sniping tools are the natural answer to sniping. You program your bid and let the machine do the work for you. There's no emotion involved, and if you win you end up paying no more than what you were willing to. The added advantage is that you don't have to be around when the auction ends (i.e. in the middle of your bedtime). If everyone simply used sniping tools then the world of eBay would be a better place. I suggest StealthBid.com. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 15 17:07:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:07:41 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGJ009VVXGSIWC4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:11:43 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> I just aquired a Tandy T100, really fun little machine. >> one of the first steps is to exten the ram (24k more is possible) > >>From what I remember, the original RAM consisted of little ceramic >substrates with 4 off 2K*8 static RAMs soldered to them. There were >separate chip select pins for each RAM, all the address decoding was on >the mainboard. Yep and the ceramic carried 4x 5118 2kx8 parts. >These modules were 0.7" (I think) wide. But it's possible, with a bit of >careful bending, to get a normal 0.6" wide IC into the socket. You can >put a nromal 8K*8 static RAM into the top 12 pins of each side of the >socket (wiith pins 1,2,27,28 of the RAM haning off the end) and most of >the signals match up. I did this in my Model 100. I then did some >cut-n-jumper mods to get A11 and A12 straight off the address bus, to >modify the address decoder appropriately (while still keeping the >original 8K module in the lowest address possition), and to handle the >power-down memory protection. You can but it's ugly. I need a clean schematic that I can read to manage my hack. I have 8kx8s and 256kx8s aplenty. >I should still have notes on this, but I was working on a UK model, which >doesn't have the intenral modem, and where different sections of ICs are >used in some positions (what I mean here, is that if the US schematic >shows, say, U6a as a '00 NAND gate in some position in the circuit, then >the UK version still uses a '00 NAND gate, but it might well be U21c (the >component references are totally ficticious here!)). Thats why I need a clean schematic. The one I have you can't read part or pin numbers on. Signal names are just blobs. A better schematic and it's easy as pie. Allison From mokuba at gmail.com Sat May 14 20:59:45 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:59:45 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <81BF71E9-3C99-4602-9C69-4CB280EEE9F8@gmail.com> That's REALLY weird, endian issue or is that just undefined behavior in the C spec? On May 13, 2005, at 2:24 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Bryan" == Bryan Pope writes: >>>>>> > > Bryan> And thusly Mike Loewen spake: > >>> On Fri, 13 May 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the >>>>> >>> result of >>> >>>>> >>>>> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> IIRC it should output: >>>> >>>> 2 1 0 >>>> >>> >>> Not on my system: >>> >>> 0 1 2 >>> >>> > > Bryan> I checked after I sent the message and my system output "2 1 > Bryan> 0"... I am using Watcom C 10.6 under QNX 4.25. > > I think the answer is that it should display 3 numbers, each in the > range 0 to 2. > > GCC produces 2 1 0 on x86 and 0 1 2 on MIPS. > > paul > > From vrs at msn.com Sun May 15 17:51:04 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:51:04 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you think is > > your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says "well, if I > > could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay that". > > Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the very > reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses human > psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect is that it > results in INFLATED PRICES). I see this as replacing an orderly competition to determine who is willing to pay the most with a last second scramble in which some number of bidders get cut off by the auction deadline. So I don't see how it drive prices up. Seems like whoever got cut off lost their chance to drive the price up. Since I enter snipes days ahead of time (and assume most others do too), I think the emotionalism that drives the prices up is largely defeated. If the minority who are hand-entering their last-second bids had enough time to bid effectively, *that* would drive prices up. > (I don't want any arguments. It's a fact. Go do something useful instead > of replying to this message ;) Like *that* was going to happen :-)! Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 17:48:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:48:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050515180050.01545100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 15, 5 06:00:50 pm Message-ID: > > At 09:45 PM 5/15/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave > >> me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the > > > >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), > > That's like mine but it only has one HH drive. Any idea if these will > handle four floppy drives? The manual says that it could handle four The schematics in the back of my Owner's Manual only show DS0 and DS1 wired up, so I guess it only handles 2 floppies. > Winchester drives. IF you have the Winchester board. I don't :-( It Nor do I. But to tie in to a thread a few weeks back, I have a third-party board in mine. It's fixed on pillars stuck to the main board, and connects to the 2 50 pin bus headers. It contains a few TTL chips, and has a 20 pin header that's designed to link to a Pluto graphics unit (or at least that's what I think it's for). Alas I don't have any software to drive it. > doesn't say about the floppy drives other than you could get two drives in it. > > >and the _excellent_ owner's manual with full schematics in the back. What > >I don't have is an OS for it :-(. If anyone has the set of original disks > >that came with such a machine, I am looking for copies (IIRC it was the > >UCSD p-system, with some Sage-specific utilities). > > You're in luck. I got all four original disks. I haven't looked closely > at the manuals yet but they look like they're pretty complete. I got five > manuals with it: Assembler/SDT, p-System Program Developement (I think this > compiles to native code and not just p-code), p-System Operating System, > Getting Started/Word 7 and Technical Manual. In one of them it mentioned The only manual I got with mine was the Owner's Manual, but it's very useful. It doesn't mention much of the stnadard P-system stuff (but I have other p-system manuals...), but it does cover all the non-standard units, it contains schematics, info on setting up the terminal driver, using the ROM monitor, etc. > that there was also a Service manual and a Operating System Architecture > Manual. I have the Assembler for it and I'm pretty sure that it includes > the Pascal Compiler. They say that they also had Fortran and BASIC and I think Pascal was standard. > CPM-68k for it so I'm on the look out for those. I hate to mention this, but IIRC Don Maslin's archive contained CP/M 68k for the Sage :-( All (!) we have to do is find some way of transfering disk images to me in a format that I can actually make use of..... -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 20:20:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:20:52 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: References: <20050515015005.0a39aa23.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050515202052.30e500fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Well, Micromint wants $25 for the manual for the BCC180 and their > > website claims it is still available. I would be happy to scan it > > if/when I purchase a copy, but they'd have to be asked. I would > > think if they'd allow it to be scanned and made available, that I > > would have found it already in my scouring of the net for a copy. > > I'll certainly follow through and ask them for permission and submit > > it if I do buy the manual. > > Um, Scott, Micromint (the copyright holder) currently sells copies of > the documents for $25. That should probably tell you what their > answer is going to be if you ask for permission to scan it and > distribute it for free. This should also inform you as to the > propriety of scanning it and"making it available". > Well, I maintain that the fact that they have a stale listing in their back catalog doesn't mean they see commercial potential in selling it forever. I'm a little offended that you think I'd weasel out a loose rationale to scan and upload it. Did you even read the last sentence I typed above? From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 20:22:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:22:47 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I guess I'm trying to figure out what your 'packrat vs. collector' > > comment at the front has to do with the rest of your comment. Is > > there some higher, more-esteemed thing called a 'collector' that is > > superior to a packrat? I agree that organized and managed > > collections are better. I just don't know where to draw the line > > without coming off like we're labeling (self-labeling) ourselves > > with some sort of clinical disorder and/or stepping up onto a > > pedestal. > > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. > Collect and accumulate are synonyms. From news at computercollector.com Sun May 15 20:27:15 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:27:15 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200505160126.j4G1QNR9072351@dewey.classiccmp.org> >>>> Collect and accumulate are synonyms. Uhhhh.... Wrong. Collect means to explicity "gather". Accumulate means to passively not dispose of. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Stevens Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Don Maslin Software Archive On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I guess I'm trying to figure out what your 'packrat vs. collector' > > comment at the front has to do with the rest of your comment. Is > > there some higher, more-esteemed thing called a 'collector' that is > > superior to a packrat? I agree that organized and managed > > collections are better. I just don't know where to draw the line > > without coming off like we're labeling (self-labeling) ourselves > > with some sort of clinical disorder and/or stepping up onto a > > pedestal. > > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. > Collect and accumulate are synonyms. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 15 20:38:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050515183603.V44483@shell.lmi.net> > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Collect and accumulate are synonyms. When I closed my office, I kept everything that I collect, and gave away a metric butttload of stuff that I had accumulated. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 20:43:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:43:51 -0500 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:51:04 -0700 "vrs" wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > Unfortunately, Ebay's "theory" goes against human nature. What you > > > think > is > > > your maximum bid, when someone else outbids that your brain says > > > "well, > if I > > > could get it for just a little more, I guess I'd be willing to pay > that". > > > > Right. This is exactly what I used to say ad nauseum. It is the > > very reason sniping is still around. It helps eBay in that it uses > > human psychology in their favor (oh, and by the way, the side effect > > is that it results in INFLATED PRICES). > > I see this as replacing an orderly competition to determine who is > willing to pay the most with a last second scramble in which some > number of bidders get cut off by the auction deadline. So I don't see > how it drive prices up. Seems like whoever got cut off lost their > chance to drive the price up. > > Since I enter snipes days ahead of time (and assume most others do > too), I think the emotionalism that drives the prices up is largely > defeated. If the minority who are hand-entering their last-second > bids had enough time to bid effectively, *that* would drive prices up. > If ebay wanted to take advantage of the sniping phenomenon correctly, they would figure out a mechanism to bring it into their system, or engineer the rules to eliminate it, i.e. the one-hour-after-last-bid extension method. Though I can see real frustration if people 'game' that to make things close long, long after the scheduled ending, too. It's been ages since I 'rode out' a close to the end in real-time. Third-party sniping systems have essentially replaced 'real-time' bidding on highly contested items, in my opinion. I place my high bid, either with a proxy service or program, or directly with eBay, and walk away. I attend a LOT of local auctions, where one gets to know everybody quite closely, and where there is a lot of social protocol that keeps rudeness at bay. There are regulars here, obviously, but let's be honest, the names/identities don't automatically translate to 'the ring' at eBay the same way. Would be okay if it did. Another point- awhile back in this very forum people were talking about protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion. Isn't that wrong, too? -Scott From tomj at wps.com Sat May 14 20:04:47 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 18:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050514180134.U781@localhost> > >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > >> > IIRC it should output: >>>>>>>>>> AD NAUSEUM Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? The answer is: UNDEFINED. What it will print is UNDEFINED. Good old K & R warns you of SIDE EFFECTS, most specifically stupid-human assumptions about the order of evaluation. Sheesh! Try writing a portable printf(). Good luck! From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 15 21:16:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:16:13 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515183603.V44483@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050515183603.V44483@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050515211613.47951031.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 May 2005 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. > > On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Collect and accumulate are synonyms. > > When I closed my office, I kept everything that I collect, > and gave away a metric butttload of stuff that I had accumulated. > > And if you hadn't accumulated it to give away to other people more interested, it would have all ended up in the dumpster at the point just before when you supposedly 'packratted' it. Sometimes one gets the idea here that if you don't mount each item on a piece of walnut with a brass plaque labeling it, you're just piling up junk. Lord, how I wish I had kept ('packratted' to use that dirty word) some of the computer-related things in the past I've had that I apparently wasn't "collecting" back at that point in time. There are people with some of the attitudes expressed here in Numismatics, too. Coin 'collectors' who view it as a genteel pastime. Lord knows they'll turn up their nose at that sack of mixed, circulated foreign coins I'm excited to find at a table at a show. I just love figuring out where each and every one of them comes from and the history of that place when they were minted and circulated among the people. I leave it to the 'gentlemen collectors' to fuss and fluster about the 'patina' on the particular specimens in the narrow series of coins they specialize in. Who's the better 'collector'? I guess it's decided by the 'professionals' who collect the fees and pay the custodians who install the velvet ropes at the shows. Whatever. From vrs at msn.com Sun May 15 21:23:04 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:23:04 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: "Scott Stevens" > Another point- awhile back in this very forum people were talking about > protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some > people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each > other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion. > Isn't that wrong, too? For myself, I draw the line at describing my own behavior. I think it is treading too close to the line to try to influence the bidding of others, so I never ask others not to bid. I think if there were a "social norm" not to bid, that would have dubious ethics too. Of course, many list members were in vocal disagreement with me about the issues last time they came up :-). Vince From jhoger at pobox.com Sun May 15 21:25:03 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:25:03 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1116210303.17723.391.camel@aragorn> On Sun, 2005-05-15 at 20:43 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Another point- awhile back in this very forum people were talking about > protocol for auctions. The ethics of bidder-collusion, etc. Some > people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each > other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion. > Isn't that wrong, too? > My opinion is right vs. wrong is irrelevant as long as you follow ebay's stated rules. I've heard of no rules re: collusion to not bid against each other... Other than the law and Ebay's rules, only the law of the jungle holds sway. -- John. From tomj at wps.com Sun May 15 21:37:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive (fwd) Message-ID: <20050515193413.I714@localhost> Someone wrote me: > Do you really know what you're saying about Don? > I mean, had you been to his house? YIPES! TERRIBLE EDIT! MY FAULT! CRINGING APOLOGY! I was made to realize I implied that somehow Don's collection fell on him ("This is essentially what Don did...") A terrible edit on my part. What I meant to say was Don apparently carefully collected a huge amount of stuff, and when he died, essentially arranged to have it disposed of poorly, ala the train guy. Looking at my original posting, it's a botch job edit. My sincere apologies to anyone hurt by it. tomj From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 15 21:39:13 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:39:13 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <200505160126.j4G1QNR9072351@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505160126.j4G1QNR9072351@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <428807D1.7010400@atarimuseum.com> So what do you call a person who accumulates collections? ;-) Curt Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >>>>>Collect and accumulate are synonyms. >>>>> >>>>> > >Uhhhh.... Wrong. > >Collect means to explicity "gather". > >Accumulate means to passively not dispose of. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Scott Stevens >Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:23 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: The Don Maslin Software Archive > >On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival > wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> >> >>>I guess I'm trying to figure out what your 'packrat vs. collector' >>>comment at the front has to do with the rest of your comment. Is >>>there some higher, more-esteemed thing called a 'collector' that is >>>superior to a packrat? I agree that organized and managed >>>collections are better. I just don't know where to draw the line >>>without coming off like we're labeling (self-labeling) ourselves >>>with some sort of clinical disorder and/or stepping up onto a >>>pedestal. >>> >>> >>A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. >> >> >> > >Collect and accumulate are synonyms. > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 15 21:41:45 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:41:45 -0500 Subject: Don's archive Message-ID: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I reviewed the email thread about this yesterday, but wanted to give it a little thought before replying. First, I'd be happy to contact Winnie - possibly to try and give her a 3rd person view of the situation so that she understands that Don's software & docs - while not "valuable", is "valuable". As an option, I could pursue trying to make arrangements to obtain it - perhaps there's some personality issue between her and Vince (this is NOT a slam against Vince at all - sometimes personalities just don't mesh, prior perceptions change, etc.). However, that all being said I am of the opinion after carefully reading all the posts on this topic that I've seen... that Winnie has no intention whatsoever to let go of the documentation and/or software. One could imagine she needs to hold on to it as something tangible of Don. One could imagine that based on the way some things were phrased, that she is under the (false) impression it is worth a kings ransom in real dollars and is holding off disposition because she's frantically searching for an appraiser to tell her what she wants to hear. I'm not making judgements here, just pondering the technical possibilities. I've seen the posts talking about having a museum get in contact with her. Perhaps this would be a good thing, but again my own impression is that if a museum calls, most people are likely to smell $$$. So if Vince would like me to contact her, I'd be happy to - I'm pretty good at that kind of discussion actually. My own opinion so far though is that Vince is the best person to still pursue this, and getting another person(s) directly involved with Winnie will only hurt, not help. Not to mention I suspect she won't let it go anyway, at least until she hears from several appraisers. Perhaps I could draft a letter (from ClassicCMP) explaining some things she should consider, get the letter to Vince, and have him deliver it. That way he's still in front, but perhaps some additional thoughts to her may help Vince as "ammunition" or at the least give Winnie reason to thing that Vince's ideas/comments aren't "just his", and a lot of people feel the same way. With regards to starting an S100/CPM repository... well... someone should really look at all the Heathkit stuff I got. There's a room full of CPM stuff, including several cases (case being about 1.5 foot by 3 foot) of 8" floppies, cases of 5.25 hard sector floppies, and pretty much every piece of software and newsletter ever released for the heathkit CPM boxes. I do not have time to do that. But, I strongly suspect what I have would be a good start on a CPM archive. And of course, the ClassicCmp server exists not only to run the mailing list, but to house documentation and software for vintage systems. There's quite a few vintage software repositories on the ClassicCmp server (the newest one is the TRS-80 archives) including the swtpc archives, retroarchive, rainbow archives, bygone, and of course, a full mirror of the #1 classic site - bitsavers.org. I believe there's about 70gb free on the server archive drives (and enough money in the kitty still from donations to add more disk if need be), so if a CPM/S100 repository is started, feel free to host it there. The ClassicCmp server is well connected and well cared for so it's a safe spot. Simply put, I'm offering to host a CPM/S100 archive "Don's, or a new one", at no charge, forever. Kind regards, Jay West From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun May 15 21:40:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:40:47 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050515180050.01545100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050515224047.016c7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:48 PM 5/15/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 09:45 PM 5/15/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave >> >> me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the >> > >> >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), >> >> That's like mine but it only has one HH drive. Any idea if these will >> handle four floppy drives? The manual says that it could handle four > >The schematics in the back of my Owner's Manual only show DS0 and DS1 >wired up, so I guess it only handles 2 floppies. I haven't looked at the schematics yet but I suspected as much. > >> Winchester drives. IF you have the Winchester board. I don't :-( It > >Nor do I. But to tie in to a thread a few weeks back, I have a >third-party board in mine. It's fixed on pillars stuck to the main board, >and connects to the 2 50 pin bus headers. It contains a few TTL chips, >and has a 20 pin header that's designed to link to a Pluto graphics unit >(or at least that's what I think it's for). Alas I don't have any >software to drive it. What's a Pluto graphics unit? The Sage only comes with512k of memory (max). The Winchester adapter also contains up to 512k bytes of additional RAM. Any ideas about how to built a RAM card that can be used to increase the memory of the standard Sage? > >> doesn't say about the floppy drives other than you could get two drives in it. >> >> >and the _excellent_ owner's manual with full schematics in the back. What >> >I don't have is an OS for it :-(. If anyone has the set of original disks >> >that came with such a machine, I am looking for copies (IIRC it was the >> >UCSD p-system, with some Sage-specific utilities). >> >> You're in luck. I got all four original disks. I haven't looked closely >> at the manuals yet but they look like they're pretty complete. I got five >> manuals with it: Assembler/SDT, p-System Program Developement (I think this >> compiles to native code and not just p-code), p-System Operating System, >> Getting Started/Word 7 and Technical Manual. In one of them it mentioned > >The only manual I got with mine was the Owner's Manual, but it's very >useful. It doesn't mention much of the stnadard P-system stuff (but I >have other p-system manuals...), but it does cover all the non-standard >units, it contains schematics, info on setting up the terminal driver, >using the ROM monitor, etc. > >> that there was also a Service manual and a Operating System Architecture >> Manual. I have the Assembler for it and I'm pretty sure that it includes >> the Pascal Compiler. They say that they also had Fortran and BASIC and > >I think Pascal was standard. > >> CPM-68k for it so I'm on the look out for those. > >I hate to mention this, but IIRC Don Maslin's archive contained CP/M 68k >for the Sage :-( I wonder who finally ended up with his archive? Several people tried to take it over. > >All (!) we have to do is find some way of transfering disk images to me >in a format that I can actually make use of..... Snail Mail! I'll make copies as soon as I get it fired up. I need backup copies anyway. Joe > >-tony > > From jhoger at pobox.com Sun May 15 21:42:34 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:42:34 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050514180134.U781@localhost> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050514180134.U781@localhost> Message-ID: <1116211354.17723.408.camel@aragorn> On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 18:04 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > > >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > > > > >> > IIRC it should output: > > >>>>>>>>>> AD NAUSEUM > > > Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? > > The answer is: UNDEFINED. What it will print is UNDEFINED. Good > old K & R warns you of SIDE EFFECTS, most specifically > stupid-human assumptions about the order of evaluation. No, it will not print "UNDEFINED" it will print something very well defined. Just not defined by the ANSI or ISO folks. It's defined by your friendly neighborhood compiler writer. In any event it may be stupid (and usually is) to create implementation dependencies like this that a) are non-portable and b) are really hard for joe-code-maintainer to understand without a well-crafted google search. Remember though that there are lots of cases where portability does not matter. And if it's for your personal use joe-coder won't matter either. The only kind of software that matters is software that is compiled and runs on a computer. One can only presume that it is (a) Real compiler(s) and (a) Real computer(s) involved here, so all language implementation and platform specific issues will be settled by reality. The usual logic is to save yourself work later if it's easy to do something different now. But you must always balance that against "You Ain't Gonna Need It." One way to think of it is to maximize laziness while meeting the hard requirements of functionality and schedule. They don't pay you the big bucks to hit the would-be-nices, or to make a 6 level masterpiece of a class hierarchy, and certainly not to write an entry for the obfuscated C contest, but rather to get it done as required, on-time. -- John. From tomj at wps.com Sun May 15 21:44:17 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <42872EDB.nail6RV1XJK8R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <42872EDB.nail6RV1XJK8R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> On Sun, 15 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> are you a packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? > > Don was neither. He was a true archivist, in this case working > for the CP/M community. On the heels of my foolish posting (see accompanying apology) this sounds a bit off, but here goes: But don't archivists make their archives available? Clearly, Don's is not. If Don had been loosely operating an informal library, then his family would have at least a faint handle on what to do with it. My attempt at a point earlier was that he was packratting, making a big pile of stuff with no real plans for the future. This appears to be fact. We've all gone to estate sales of people who did this very thing. It's a great way to morbidly pick up deals from distraught families but it's not a way to "archive". This is what I meant as a lesson to us all. By all accounts Don was a great guy, friendly and helpful. I just find it frustrating that this packratting is exalted, and could have been so easily headed off. That's all. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 15 21:44:16 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:44:16 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive References: <200505160126.j4G1QNR9072351@dewey.classiccmp.org> <428807D1.7010400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <018601c559c1$289f5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Curt wrote... > So what do you call a person who accumulates collections? ;-) Rich, and simultaneously very... very... very tired. Jay From vrs at msn.com Sun May 15 21:51:58 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:51:58 -0700 Subject: Don's archive References: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > issue between her and Vince (this is NOT a slam against Vince at all - > sometimes personalities just don't mesh, prior perceptions change, etc.). I thought it was Vernon Wright's post that started this thread? (My own advice to Vernon is to be patient. I have heard it said that for many people, they are basically incapacitated for at least a year after major stress. Maybe she will suddenly be ready to do something about the collection this fall.) Vince From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sun May 15 22:38:37 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:38:37 -0700 Subject: Making Frontpanel Labels Message-ID: <428815BD.30102@ix.netcom.com> > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Today's garage sale findings > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Speaking of > which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed > _plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? I know I can > pick up an 8.5"x11" paper label from any office supply place. I am > 3M used to make a product that was a thin alunimum with a photo emulsion on it. It worked like a blue print. Make your master on vellim, print it using a blue print machine and develop it with ammonia. I made many very professional looking front panels with this technique. The 3M salesman would sell it by the sheet fairly cheap ( about $1/square foot). It was mounted by peeling off the back to reveal a contact glue. You never got it off again once it was stuck on metal. What I liked about this method was that you could cover up misdrilled holes. The alunimum was think enough that it could cover up unused holes with no denting. Great for covering up sloppy work. Billy From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 15 22:39:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:39:14 -0500 Subject: Don's archive References: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008c01c559c8$d8581670$993cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jay West" Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:41 PM > With regards to starting an S100/CPM repository... well... someone should > really look at all the Heathkit stuff I got. There's a room full of CPM > stuff, including several cases (case being about 1.5 foot by 3 foot) of 8" > floppies, cases of 5.25 hard sector floppies, and pretty much every piece > of > software and newsletter ever released for the heathkit CPM boxes. I do not > have time to do that. But, I strongly suspect what I have would be a good > start on a CPM archive. > > And of course, the ClassicCmp server exists not only to run the mailing > list, but to house documentation and software for vintage systems. There's > quite a few vintage software repositories on the ClassicCmp server (the > newest one is the TRS-80 archives) including the swtpc archives, > retroarchive, rainbow archives, bygone, and of course, a full mirror of > the > #1 classic site - bitsavers.org. I believe there's about 70gb free on the > server archive drives (and enough money in the kitty still from donations > to > add more disk if need be), so if a CPM/S100 repository is started, feel > free > to host it there. The ClassicCmp server is well connected and well cared > for > so it's a safe spot. Simply put, I'm offering to host a CPM/S100 archive > "Don's, or a new one", at no charge, forever. > > Kind regards, > > Jay West Hopefully Don's DynaSig archive will be rescued one day, until then it is best to get started building a new archive. Jay are you interested in archiving more than just CP/M? I have material on CP/M, CDOS, NorthStar (DOS, CP/M, TurboDOS, and UCSD psystem), and other psystem files. I have a small collection of disk images I would be happy to donate. I have a few giga-bytes of space that can hold a mirror. Compressed each boot disk image will probably be less than 80K each. It was pointed out that teledisk image format is an undocumented proprietary format. While this is true I know of nothing else to replace it with. I know that a few people are working on replacements. Until then it might be best to package the boot disks into an archive containing a teledisk image, a straight sector dump, and an archive of the files contained on the disk. The software that Dave Dunfield is working on is happy with straight sector dumps and having access to the files is handy. Some companies still exist and technically may hold copyrights on some of the files. Some originally put their material in the public domain. I have yet to contact a copyright holder that doesn't allow posting their classic material (docs & software). Some want to give websites permission on case at a time (specifically Alpha-Micro). Gaby Chaudry and I have been in contact with Cromemco and they are happy to have their material archived. One group I am a member of are dealing with the Regents of UCSD, because of these talks UCSD is now posting on one of their sites the source code to some of the psystem. I am unsure if it is OK to post on other websites but the general consensus is that it was developed with public funds in a public school. Right now I have most of I.4 and I.5 sources and I am waiting for one member to send me printouts of version II source to scan and post. I have binaries for a variety of computers. Jay be happy to either download what is posted on my website and re-post it (this applies to anyone interested) or I'll be happy to send it to you as you want it. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 15 22:31:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto' - the debate between 'human' vs 'machine' programming In-Reply-To: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <200505160346.XAA21346@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The machine works in an excellent fashion as a solitary instrument. > In this case it benefits me. Is this the true value of programming > and using a 'goto' to get out of a jam so to speak can be very > effective. Works in real life, particularly useful around Belgian > horses. Can this be wrong? Well, I'm not sure what a Belgian horse is. But yes, using a goto can indeed be wrong even when it gets you out of a jam. If it really is true that the program in question is going to be written all at once and never modified, then there probably is almost no price to a goto. (Only "almost" no price because when a goto is the answer the question has usually been misunderstood, so using a goto often carries the price of writing code that solves the wrong problem.) But if the program is going to be maintained, either by another person or by its original author after a significant time - say, more than a month - then using a goto carries a significant maintenance cost. Occasionally this cost is less than the various costs associated with other ways of writing a solution to the problem, but far more often not, at least in my experience. My experience has also been that to a first and almost even a second approximation, _no_ programs are written all at once and never modified, and the few exceptions are trivial little hacks that don't involve the sorts of problems that tempt one to use gotos anyway. Again, this is allowing exceptions for cases where a structured construct is written with a goto, such as when writing in gcc and using a goto to throw out of a nested function, or when the code isn't really the source code humans work with, as with mechanically or semi-mechanically generated programs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 15 22:49:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <81BF71E9-3C99-4602-9C69-4CB280EEE9F8@gmail.com> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <81BF71E9-3C99-4602-9C69-4CB280EEE9F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200505160357.XAA21404@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [quoting botches fixed, and vertically compressed, manually -dM] >>>>>> int i = 0; printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); >>>>> IIRC it should output: 2 1 0 >>>> Not on my system: 0 1 2 >> GCC produces 2 1 0 on x86 and 0 1 2 on MIPS. > That's REALLY weird, endian issue or is that just undefined behavior > in the C spec? It's undefined behaviour, in the strict sense of "undefined" used in the C spec. "3.1 d00d j00 l0se" would be just as conformant to the C spec, as would a segfault (or whatever the equivalent is under the OS in use). Of course, each implementation can be looked on as a spec that defines behaviour for all the stuff that's undefined in the C standard, but from that point of view there are as many specs as there are implementations, so there is no "the" spec. The difference observed in gcc-compiled code between x86 and MIPS is probably related more to argument-passing conventions than endianness issues, especially since that report didn't say whether the MIPS was running LE or BE (MIPS can be either). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 15 23:20:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:20:03 -0500 Subject: Don's archive References: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <008c01c559c8$d8581670$993cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <001601c559cf$94328b90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > Hopefully Don's DynaSig archive will be rescued one day, until then it is > best to get started building a new archive. Jay are you interested in > archiving more than just CP/M? I have material on CP/M, CDOS, NorthStar > (DOS, CP/M, TurboDOS, and UCSD psystem), and other psystem files. I own an ISP/Webhosting/Colocation firm. My standing deal is I will host anything classic computer related (ftp or websites, DNS service, etc), for anyone, free of charge. So yes, you can host any stuff on the above mentioned systems/environments on my servers that you wish, gratis. Jay From news at computercollector.com Mon May 16 00:04:46 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 01:04:46 -0400 Subject: Evan's PDA history page -- it's alive Message-ID: <200505160503.j4G535TC075089@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hi, ClassicCMP'rs -- I included the list in a "BCC" email but that didn't seem to go through -- so I'm resending the message below... -- Evan (just ignore if you get two copies... Sorry about that...) ================================================ Hello friends, colleagues, collectors, and people I've interviewed... After about four years of work, I've finally completed the vast majority of my PDA history research. So if you're getting this email, it means we've communicated at some point in the recent past. Or else I just thought you're someone who might find this research interesting. It's all online at http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm -- it is approximately 10,000 words of nerdiness. There will be changes. Inevitably some of you will find typos and suggest corrections, which is the whole reason I'm posting this now at all. FYI to the collecting community -- the majority of this draft was already read over by Bruce Damer, Sellam Ismail, Erik Klein, and Michael Nadeau. Hopefully they caught any blatant mistakes of mine... All of the photographs are used with permission and all are linked back to the original sources. The link to the story "Thank you, Beep" is used with HP's permission. The one thing not yet included is the massive bibliography. I'm working on it as fast as I can. Rest assured, the research isn't just from reading a bunch of random, unproven web pages. There is a reason this took four years: every fact is double- or triple-sourced. The majority of the facts here came from personal interviews that I conducted with the first-person sources, as well as from books, news articles, patent research, etc. Please forward to anyone and everyone. Please do NOT go copying stuff without asking. :) Finally, whatever I wrote here (with the exception of typos, etc.) overrules anything I said or wrote before. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 00:16:02 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 01:16:02 -0400 Subject: Making Frontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: <428815BD.30102@ix.netcom.com> References: <428815BD.30102@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the various aluminum suggestions, but I happen to be looking for white, to match the look of what Bob Armstrong has done. If I ever plan to do something lke an Altair replica, I'll certainly keep printable aluminum in mind. -ethan From jhoger at pobox.com Mon May 16 00:41:59 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:41:59 -0700 Subject: NEC PC-8201A Technical Manual Message-ID: <1116222119.17723.429.camel@aragorn> Well me and a few other folks recently "rescued" a technical manual for the PC-8201A from Ebay. It has lots of details useful to a programmer writing information for this machine. 257 pages. Chapter 15 is dedicated to hardware information. Howver, it starts with the sentence "Refer to another technical manual about the detail specion of PC-8201A's hardware. That manual has already been by NECHE, Chicago. Please contact with them. In this r, only most important data is listed up." Does anyone have a copy of the hardware tech ref? It would be useful to us in the remem project http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.html Also any such manuals about the 8300, 8500, and Starlet would be interesting to me as well. I've tried to talk to NEC directly in the past, but they say clearly that they "have no information on these antiques." Nice sense of history... Thanks! -- John. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 16 05:29:48 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:29:48 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <42872EDB.nail6RV1XJK8R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> Message-ID: <4288761C.nailKIQ11LE64@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > But don't archivists make their archives available? Clearly, Don's > is not. Well, he did while he was alive - he helped me and hundreds of others out many times. But the issue of what happens to a personal archive when it's not explicitly written out in a legal will is hard. You and I may think we know what Don would've wanted, but I look back at my pestering him to make off-site backups in the 90's and maybe the issue isn't so clear-cut. He was always polite in his replies to my pestering, and the answer was always "no" to any mass duplication of the archive. Now I have to find the old E-mails and see if I can extract what reason there was. Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 16 06:13:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:13:50 +0000 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <42872EDB.nail6RV1XJK8R@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> Message-ID: <1116242030.23826.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-05-15 at 19:44 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >> are you a packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? > > > > Don was neither. He was a true archivist, in this case working > > for the CP/M community. > > On the heels of my foolish posting (see accompanying apology) this > sounds a bit off, but here goes: > > But don't archivists make their archives available? Clearly, Don's > is not. I'm not sure about making it physically available, but at least to do it electronically costs money that might not be available. Plus of course making disk images / rom images / scanning docs all eats up a lot of time. Regarding physical archives, most of us are probably quite approachable I'd imagine - distance being a problem there. It sounds like Don was at least organising and rescuing stuff that otherwise might have gone to landfill; it's just a shame instructions weren't apparently left as to what to do with everything after he'd gone. cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 16 06:43:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:43:29 +0100 Subject: Honeywell DPS6 Clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42888761.5030409@gjcp.net> John Lawson wrote: > All somebody has to say is "Yes, I want the DPS-6." and then we can > contrive wild schemes to get it transported - as long as that is the > case, then the 'execution' can be stayed. > I'd love to have it, but shipping it to Scotland would be, erm, prohibitive. What would it cost to stick it into some sort of self-store place? Gordon. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 16 08:42:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:42:43 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <81BF71E9-3C99-4602-9C69-4CB280EEE9F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17032.41811.346639.33411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gary" == Gary Sparkes, writes: Gary> That's REALLY weird, endian issue or is that just undefined Gary> behavior in the C spec? >>> On May 13, 2005, at 2:24 PM, Paul >>> Koning wrote: >> GCC produces 2 1 0 on x86 and 0 1 2 on MIPS. Undefined behavior, so both are correct. I suspect the underlying cause is that x86 passes all args on the stack, while MIPS passes the first four (or eight) in registers. So the x86 code looks like this: push 0 push 1 push 2 push (pointer to "%d %d %d") call printf while the MIPS code looks like la a0, (pointer to "%d %d %d") li a1, 0 li a2, 1 li a3, 2 jal printf paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 16 08:42:55 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:42:55 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <018601c559c1$289f5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200505160126.j4G1QNR9072351@dewey.classiccmp.org> <428807D1.7010400@atarimuseum.com> <018601c559c1$289f5ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4288A35F.10008@atarimuseum.com> Good response Jay :-) Curt Jay West wrote: > Curt wrote... > >> So what do you call a person who accumulates collections? ;-) > > Rich, and simultaneously very... very... very tired. > > Jay > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 16 08:47:02 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:47:02 -0400 Subject: Don's archive In-Reply-To: References: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4288A456.3080101@atarimuseum.com> Vince is quite right, I've had family of former Atari employee's contact me and then disappear for over a year to suddenly reappear out of the blue and want to ship everything their spouse or relative had, many don't even wait for me to send them money to pay for shipping and boxes start arriving within days, its happened on a number of occassions. There is really nothing more you can do except to be patient and perhaps make the occassional ping once every 3-6 months just to see what's up, but don't push or you can find that you'll push the opportunity out of reach, many people handle things such as belongings diffeently then others and you just have to wait it out. CUrt vrs wrote: >From: "Jay West" > > >>issue between her and Vince (this is NOT a slam against Vince at all - >>sometimes personalities just don't mesh, prior perceptions change, etc.). >> >> > >I thought it was Vernon Wright's post that started this thread? > >(My own advice to Vernon is to be patient. I have heard it said that for >many people, they are basically incapacitated for at least a year after >major stress. Maybe she will suddenly be ready to do something about the >collection this fall.) > > Vince > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 09:15:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515193919.Q714@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >> are you a packrat (as Don apparently was) or a collector? > > > > Don was neither. He was a true archivist, in this case working > > for the CP/M community. > > On the heels of my foolish posting (see accompanying apology) this > sounds a bit off, but here goes: > > But don't archivists make their archives available? Clearly, Don's > is not. If Don had been loosely operating an informal library, > then his family would have at least a faint handle on what to do > with it. Don was operating as an informal library. However, when I spoke to his wife last year not too long after Don passed away, she explained to me that she was completely unaware of what he was doing. > My attempt at a point earlier was that he was packratting, making a big > pile of stuff with no real plans for the future. This appears to be > fact. The only thing Don didn't do was plan for an "unplanned departure". As far as we know, he never got around to writing a will for his computer collection. But Don was definitely not a packrat. He was an archivist of system disks and actively collected and catalogued them. It remains to be seen how universal his catalog was but hopefully we'll get a chance to find out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 09:18:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <20050515202052.30e500fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:40:59 -0700 (PDT) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > Well, Micromint wants $25 for the manual for the BCC180 and their > > > website claims it is still available. I would be happy to scan it > > > if/when I purchase a copy, but they'd have to be asked. I would > > > think if they'd allow it to be scanned and made available, that I > > > would have found it already in my scouring of the net for a copy. > > > I'll certainly follow through and ask them for permission and submit > > > it if I do buy the manual. > > > > Um, Scott, Micromint (the copyright holder) currently sells copies of > > the documents for $25. That should probably tell you what their > > answer is going to be if you ask for permission to scan it and > > distribute it for free. This should also inform you as to the > > propriety of scanning it and"making it available". > > > > Well, I maintain that the fact that they have a stale listing in their > back catalog doesn't mean they see commercial potential in selling it > forever. > > I'm a little offended that you think I'd weasel out a loose rationale to > scan and upload it. Did you even read the last sentence I typed above? Sorry, I was a little over the top on my response :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 09:19:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don's archive In-Reply-To: <008c01c559c8$d8581670$993cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > One group I am a member of are dealing with the Regents of UCSD, because of > these talks UCSD is now posting on one of their sites the source code to > some of the psystem. I am unsure if it is OK to post on other websites but Great! > the general consensus is that it was developed with public funds in a public > school. Right now I have most of I.4 and I.5 sources and I am waiting for > one member to send me printouts of version II source to scan and post. I > have binaries for a variety of computers. I believe I have source to version II for the PDP11. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 09:25:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evan's PDA history page -- it's alive In-Reply-To: <200505160503.j4G535TC075089@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Rest assured, the research isn't just from reading a bunch of random, > unproven web pages. There is a reason this took four years: every fact is > double- or triple-sourced. The majority of the facts here came from > personal interviews that I conducted with the first-person sources, as well > as from books, news articles, patent research, etc. I can vouch for the fact that Evan left practically no stone unturned in his research. In fact, I am amazed at Evan's ability to uncover ancient stories and information, and then follow breadcrumbs from those sources to even earlier sources. Evan has uncovered a wealth of previously unknown (or at least "lost") information about the history of the PDA, all the way back to the early 1970s. Very cool stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 16 09:30:00 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:30:00 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4288AE68.4020905@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: ... > It remains to be > seen how universal his catalog was but hopefully we'll get a chance to > find out. > Here is a list of the various system disks he had images for: http://www.gaby.de/sysdisk.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 16 09:30:40 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:30:40 -0500 Subject: Don's archive Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050516093035.056f5098@mail> At 10:57 PM 5/15/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >One group I am a member of are dealing with the Regents of UCSD, because of these talks UCSD is now posting on one of their sites the source code to some of the psystem. I am unsure if it is OK to post on other websites but the general consensus is that it was developed with public funds in a public school. Right now I have most of I.4 and I.5 sources and I am waiting for one member to send me printouts of version II source to scan and post. I have binaries for a variety of computers. Which group is this? Which web site? Ten years ago or so, I tried to talk to the Regents about licensing or releasing the license, but got nowhere. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 16 10:02:24 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:02:24 -0500 Subject: Pathology or hobby? In-Reply-To: <20050514181038.T781@localhost> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050516094709.056eb1d0@mail> At 08:17 PM 5/14/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >It's cause for serious personal reflection -- are you a packrat >or a collector? Packrat syndrome is serious, the cliche is a >house filled with bundled newspapers and magazines stacked to >the ceiling, that falls on the elderly 'rat, killing them, etc. >I know someone else with packrat-itis. I suspect it's rampant >in this list. I'm confident it's rampant on this list. Sellam said "A collector collects. A packrat accumulates." There's plenty of room for semantics here. So where's the fine line between collecting whatever you can get your hands on, and packrat-ism? It's slippery slope, starting with one of something, then more for spare parts. For some, the only upper bound is available space. I could write a book on it. Many other people have. There are many motivations, many potential causes and behaviors and beliefs that perpetuate it. I'm all for a libertarian view of life that lets people live in their parent's basement and collect old computers, but on the other hand there's also room for advice about what makes life worth living, and how an excess of possessions can overwhelm your life. There is a cost to collecting / accumulating, even if the computers are free. - John From bv at norbionics.com Wed May 11 10:56:57 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:56:57 +0200 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0IGB00IWJVETMGR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGB00IWJVETMGR2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 May 2005 15:42:36 +0200, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Infocom on PDP-11 >> From: Tom Jennings >> Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:10:08 -0700 (PDT) >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> > >> As far as sophistication goes -- a better measure than simply how >> clever or nifty a thing is -- how far did it advance the state of >> the art? Good Algol's in the early 1960's look like stuff robbed >> from the far-flung future. A lot of the "compilers" from that era >> we'd today call p-code interpreters (terminology changes) but man, >> Algol60 is neat stuff. (Not the bloated monster Algol68 (I think >> it was) became. > > Having programmed in algol on the PDP-8 back when it was a real > eye opener for a new basic programmer. The PDP-8 Timeshare didn't > know strings. > We never used goto in the way we saw in FORTRAN and COBOL programs, Algol 60 was a nicely block-structured language. I did not see any problems with lack of strings, either. We used integer arrays for the little text manipulation we needed. The big stumbling block was the lack of proper input and output, and Knuth found a workable solution for that. Of course, on a CDC-3300 running MASTER the resources were ample for even really complex programs. -- Bj?rn From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 11 12:14:03 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:14:03 -0500 Subject: non PC 8086's Message-ID: I have two x-bus machines that run CTOS/BTOS. A series of book sized modules that plug together along the bottom. Box1 CPU Box2 hard disk Box3 tape drive Box4 floppy Each box has its own external power supply. I'll see if I can take some pictures. Mike From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 11 13:33:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: focal stuff on bitsavers Message-ID: <20050511183342.E1E3670C6E9B@bitsavers.org> Jeff Russ' archives had ascii and binary versions go to ../Ascii for text versions From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 11 14:31:31 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:31:31 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 1.0 date change Message-ID: <200505111431.31417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Just a quick note that the VCF/Midwest 1.0 date is getting pushed back to Saturday, July 30th. It'll start with speakers at 10am, and have exhibits open from 12pm until 5pm. As a reminder, the location is at Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN. More details are up at: http://computer-refuge.org/vcfmw If you're interested in attending, being a speaker, or exhibiting, please drop me an email at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From birs23 at mail.zeelandnet.nl Wed May 11 16:11:10 2005 From: birs23 at mail.zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:11:10 +0200 Subject: Floppy Sleeves Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050511230914.031d2ee0@pop.xs4all.nl> Seems I had some extra time on my hands for another useless thingie, this time its a collection of Floppy Sleeves. I know there is already one out there but it hasn't been maintained in ages so I thought I start it again. Check it out at http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/floppysleeves/ Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From aek at spies.com Wed May 11 21:42:58 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:42:58 -0700 Subject: TI-980B Message-ID: <4282C2B2.70806@spies.com> > I've been half-heartedly looking for a programmers console. The 990 programmers panel is a serial peripheral to the CPU Quite different from the one on the 980. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 12 09:47:38 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:47:38 -0400 Subject: Toshiba T100 Rampack 16 Message-ID: <01C556E0.225FE4A0@H80.C223.tor.velocet.net> I've got a 16K Rampack for a Toshiba T100 here; anybody want it? mike dm561 at torfree dot net From korpela at gmail.com Thu May 12 11:48:40 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:48:40 -0700 Subject: Infocom on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0IGB002L3Z8DEF87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGB002L3Z8DEF87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > What about byte as in 6bits. Thats a valid item for PDP-8 as one > intruction BSW swaps accumulator halfs. Also much of the character > IO was 6bit. Unfortunately in C, a char has to at least be able to hold 255 unique values (-127 to 127 if char is signed). There's also the problem of pointer math since pointers to different chars have to have different values. It's surmountable, but it increases the size of a pointer. The way around this is to define a packed_char type for interfacing with 6bit io routines... typedef union tag_packed_char { struct tag_chars { unsigned int a:6,b:6,c:6,d:6; }; unsigned int u; } packed_char; Eric From korpela at gmail.com Thu May 12 12:12:01 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:12:01 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: > I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox > by elitist academics. It's still present in quite a few languanges. It just doesn't have to be used. I know of people who use them in long C functions to avoid large "else" blocks when checking for early return from a function, especially when there is lots of cleanup to be done before returning. But if there's more than one goto destination in a function, there's probably a better way. But predominantly GOTO was used to make up for missing language features. (BASICs without else, languages with single statement or single line IF, languages without case or switch statements, languages without subroutines, languages without a "repeat forever"). If you're using a language that has all these features you probably don't need a goto. (Of course, the assembly for all of the above will contain jumps, conditional or otherwise.) COME FROM is more useful than goto anyway. :) Eric From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 12 15:33:16 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:33:16 +0200 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGD006G4Q6B3E10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005 15:44:47 +0200, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! >> From: "Randy McLaughlin" >> Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:04:53 -0500 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> >> Goto's can be bad if they make the code hard to follow but I find that >> most >> people write such sloppy code that it's hard to follow anyway as well as >> making code more complicated trying to avoid goto's. > > Basic is a language that is easy to code badly. Basic is a language it is difficult to code well. ... > > I agree with an earlier post. BASIC improperly can rot your mind, > it's bad drugs for programmers. > The danger is not so much BASIC itself as the bad habits almost everybody got from learning it as a first language. Your first programming language has a very profound influence on how you think about programming, even after you become fluent in other languages. My first programming language was Algol 60, and it was very useful for me later on. The problem with goto in general and BASIC in particular, is that they encourage a view of the problem as a sequence of actions. That view may be OK for trivial problems, but it may easily encourage a lack of analysis. FORTH is a nice language to force people to think about the problem first and code afterwards. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 13 06:22:32 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:22:32 +0200 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050512221733.X836@localhost> References: <200505120156.j4C1uWFx035058@inferno.eagle.ca> <014501c55698$a786bc50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050512221733.X836@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2005 07:22:55 +0200, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 11 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > >> Ya know, I gotta disagree... and this is coming from a programmer who >> made liberal use of the GOTO statement. > > I have to agree with you too; GOTO is just another tool in the > toolbox. It's useful as hell (eg. error-exit it switch() or > whatever). > > A lot of reaction against excessive GOTOs was from the horrible > things early FORTRANs made you do, and macho programmers who > stopped learning early. I have to wonder what the cultures of > optimization that sprung up around drum machines did too. > Drum machines made people understand what they were doing. I am still very impressed with Gier Algol. I doubt I would be able to write any kind of functional compiler with that set of hardware constraints. The goto statement, however, is useful or harmful depending on your combination of hardware and language implementation. I do not see the next instruction pointer of a three-address machine as an implementation of the goto statement any more than the hidden instruction pointer in an X86-CPU which increments just enough to take us past the current instruction. The important point to me is whether there is a "jump to somewhere"-concept in the mind of the programmer. If a WHILE is implemented in assembler, it is still a while and not "branch-if-false, do-something, go-to-top". -- Bj?rn From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 13 14:27:14 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:27:14 -0500 Subject: "Pictures" via video capture and dot matrix printer Message-ID: Robert Greenstreet asked about video capture software and then output on a dot matrix printer. I have seen this done in different ways. In 1976 during the MU engineers week we used a black and white vidicon TV scanner attached to our PDP-11/20 to scan visitors to the image analysis lab. We had the person sit in a chair, hold very still, and then scanned 3 times using a color wheel to filter the image. We then both displayed the image on a RAMTEK display and printed out the image on a continuous feed printer. We used 3 printers each with different color ribbons. Interesting image if the person moved between colors. There are Panasonic dot matrix printers that have a single ribbon that is 3 colors. I think they print a line with one color than reprint without advancing each of the other colors. I think it was slow and noisy. I've seen these used in the mall, some little kiosk. They were prints on t-shirts. I think there was a special version Printronix printer that was also sold by DEC that had multicolor ribbons that would print color. I think it had a wire thread in the ribbon that told the printer which color was being printed. Maybe DEC LXY11 or P300/P600. Mike From aek at spies.com Fri May 13 17:46:35 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:46:35 -0700 Subject: Hawley Mouse Message-ID: <42852E4B.7060901@spies.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5196808330 > He's right --- it's a Alto Hawley mouse. There are actually two there. The optical one uses the sensor designed by Dick Lyon. The wirewrapped Alto to Nova interface boards are something I hadn't seen before. I have a few ideas who the retired Apple engineer in Seattle would have been that would have had this stuff. If this actually sells for 2K, I may think about selling some of the boxes of Alto parts that I have. From korpela at gmail.com Fri May 13 19:48:43 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:48:43 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050513173851.EF62573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: > So, to tie this in with the Zen Koan threads, what is the result of > > int i = 0; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > The result of this is that the programmer is executed properly. Or should be at least. Eric From korpela at gmail.com Fri May 13 22:16:25 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:16:25 -0700 Subject: LCD woes... Message-ID: I finally got around to replacing the batteries on my TRS-80 PC-1 and noticed that the intervening years have not been kind to the LCD screen. It appears that there is liquid crystal leaking out under the polarizing screen, creating what looks like black smudges on the display. I dug my less scratched up version out of storage and found the same thing, only worse. I doubt these LCD panels are still in production. Anyone have any ideas that might be able to alleviate the problem? Eric From tgarcia at hivemind.org Sat May 14 07:31:38 2005 From: tgarcia at hivemind.org (Tom Garcia) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:31:38 +0100 Subject: wanted: VAXstation 4000/60 16MB memory modules - MS44-CA / MS44-DA Message-ID: <013401c55880$e1d7ed90$c5b70551@hivemind.org> Hello, This is my first post on the list -- greetings! I have filled a VAXstation 4000/60 with four megabyte simms, that I am running vms on as a hobbyist home server... unfortunately this limits me to 32 meg, and about to add Pathworks will certainly tip her over the edge. I was wondering if anyone had any of the 16 megabyte sticks lying around-- part number printed on the board I think is 54-19103-CA , sold in packs of one or two as MS44-CA / MS44-DA respectively. Various other models of the series I believe use them, though not the /96. I would be happy to pay for shipping from anywhere; I am in (old) England. Swap for some four megabyte modules is also possible, if someone needs them instead! Alternatively, any pointers as to where would be good to look would be gratefully received. Cheers, -- Tom Garcia | tgarcia at hivemind.org From lincoln.fessenden at verizon.net Sat May 14 16:31:02 2005 From: lincoln.fessenden at verizon.net (lincoln.fessenden) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:31:02 -0400 Subject: Today's garage sale findings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42866E16.5030101@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not much to report except a $25 table-top multispeed drill press > (belts and pulleys, just like the big boys), and a free Atari 800 (CPU > only, no PSU, disk...) with three broken keys from the same house. > > The first project on the drill press is entirely on-topic - > manufacturing an ABS front panel for my Elf2K > (http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm). Speaking of > which, does anyone know if they manufacture an adhesive-backed > _plastic_ sheet that's meant to go through printers? I know I can > pick up an 8.5"x11" paper label from any office supply place. I am > hoping to find something that will resist water and abrasion (from > raspy palms) better than paper. I'm also hoping to print some new > keytops for the switches from an MSI 88/e keyboard (square, flush > pushbuttons, with a lip and stick-on key labels). I am constructing a > hex keypad for my Micro/Elf, and potentially for the Elf2K, and I > don't have A-F to pick from. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > Why not just laminate the paper? -- -Linc Fessenden In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sat May 14 23:11:10 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 00:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System Message-ID: I took some pictures of the Grinnell GMR270 and put them here: http://134.74.16.64/wwwa/web/hardware/grinnell/ It comes with documentation and the card to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus. It also comes with an RGB monitor. -kurt From steerex at mindspring.com Sun May 15 10:13:57 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:13:57 -0000 Subject: HP-IB Census Message-ID: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> Hey guys, I am compiling some information for a HP-IB KnowledgeBase article / FAQ and need some input. In order to focus my efforts and get the maximum value from the KB, I need to know what specific information should be included in the KB/FAQ. Some of the topics I am considering are: * Introduction / Tutorial - Basic overview of the protocol * Protocols - HP-IB, GPIB, SICL, IEEE-488, etc... * Characteristics - Electrical and physical characteristics * Instruments - Talking to instruments * Bus Analyzers - IE HP59401A * CS-80 disks - The CS-80 / SS-80 protocols * Programming - Linux, HP-UX, C, assembler, other So... I'd like to hear from anyone that is interested in HP-IB as to what they would like to see in the KB. Please reply to the cctech list or directly to me at steerex[at]mindspring[dot]com. See ya, SteveRob From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sun May 15 12:25:35 2005 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free: Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System for PDP-11 Message-ID: Dear Community, Free to a good home (knowledgeable collector): Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System with documentation Location: Manhattan I took some pictures of the Grinnell GMR270 and put them here: http://134.74.16.64/wwwa/web/hardware/grinnell/ It comes with documentation and the card to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus. It also comes with an RGB monitor. -kurt From korpela at gmail.com Sun May 15 18:05:24 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:05:24 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 5/13/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > I think the answer is that it should display 3 numbers, each in the > range 0 to 2. That is the "likely" answer. (Actually I'd say that the "likely" answer is that it prints three numbers in the range 0 to 2 and afterwards the value of i is in the range 1 to 3) There is no "should" answer. A compiler can do whatever it wants with this code including generating an exception, printing the Gettysburg address, and the aforementioned nasal demons. Eric From korpela at gmail.com Sun May 15 18:05:24 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 16:05:24 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 5/13/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> int i = 0; >> printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > I think the answer is that it should display 3 numbers, each in the > range 0 to 2. That is the "likely" answer. (Actually I'd say that the "likely" answer is that it prints three numbers in the range 0 to 2 and afterwards the value of i is in the range 1 to 3) There is no "should" answer. A compiler can do whatever it wants with this code including generating an exception, printing the Gettysburg address, and the aforementioned nasal demons. Eric From aek at spies.com Sun May 15 20:31:14 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:31:14 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <4287F7E2.5040802@spies.com> > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. > Collect and accumulate are synonyms. -- "Collect" in this context implies some order and method to the aquisition. Being a packrat is to gather things randomly, then to hoard what has been gathered. From news at computercollector.com Sun May 15 23:49:16 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 00:49:16 -0400 Subject: Evan's PDA history page -- it's alive Message-ID: <200505160447.j4G4lgHU074988@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hello friends, colleagues, collectors, and people I've interviewed... After about four years of work, I've finally completed the vast majority of my PDA history research. So if you're getting this email, it means we've communicated at some point in the recent past. Or else I just thought you're someone who might find this research interesting. It's all online at http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm -- it is approximately 10,000 words of nerdiness. There will be changes. Inevitably some of you will find typos and suggest corrections, which is the whole reason I'm posting this now at all. FYI to the collecting community -- the majority of this draft was already read over by Bruce Damer, Sellam Ismail, Erik Klein, and Michael Nadeau. Hopefully they caught any blatant mistakes of mine... All of the photographs are used with permission and all are linked back to the original sources. The link to the story "Thank you, Beep" is used with HP's permission. The one thing not yet included is the massive bibliography. I'm working on it as fast as I can. Rest assured, the research isn't just from reading a bunch of random, unproven web pages. There is a reason this took four years: every fact is double- or triple-sourced. The majority of the facts here came from personal interviews that I conducted with the first-person sources, as well as from books, news articles, patent research, etc. Please forward to anyone and everyone. Please do NOT go copying stuff without asking. :) Finally, whatever I wrote here (with the exception of typos, etc.) overrules anything I said or wrote before. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon May 16 10:54:19 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:54:19 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 1.0 date change In-Reply-To: <200505111431.31417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050516105340.0777ab88@mail.ubanproductions.com> Cool! I may be able to make that date, but I'll need to check with my wife first:-) --tom At 02:31 PM 5/11/2005 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Just a quick note that the VCF/Midwest 1.0 date is getting pushed back >to Saturday, July 30th. It'll start with speakers at 10am, and have >exhibits open from 12pm until 5pm. As a reminder, the location is at >Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN. > >More details are up at: >http://computer-refuge.org/vcfmw > >If you're interested in attending, being a speaker, or exhibiting, >please drop me an email at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org > >Pat >-- >Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 16 10:55:59 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:55:59 -0400 Subject: tk70? what's normal? In-Reply-To: Message from Stefan of "Wed, 11 May 2005 23:11:10 +0200." <6.1.0.6.0.20050511230914.031d2ee0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200505161555.j4GFtxoH023713@mwave.heeltoe.com> I have little/no experience with tk50/tk70 and I transplanted a tk70 into a mv4000 and I'm curious about 'normal operation' When it powers up the 3 leds all come on and then the write prot goes out, the "in use" starts flashing and the 'handle' led (green) stays on. I notice that if the i/o connector is in backward all 3 leds will flash and the handle led will never come on. When the cable is in properly (I presume), the green led is on and the 'in use' just keeps flashing. Occationally it makes little scraping noises like it's trying to load the tape. I did try and load a tape and found it sucked the tape in but refused to unload it. The in-use light just flashed and flashed. I found I had to angle the tape it a bit to get the interlock to release so I could insert the cart. Is this drive dead/broken perhaps? -brad From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon May 16 11:13:39 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:13:39 -0700 Subject: Don's archive References: <016401c559c0$cd0b9b50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4288C6B3.9A58380D@msm.umr.edu> The other things I have not seen in this discussion are that it does not matter as many postings have discussed what "accumlate" "archive" "collect" or "pack rat" mean to us, it is what the people outside our interest percieve it to be and what they were educated to understand it to be. Without any information about the specifics of Don's situation, let me say that my wife and heirs know what my pile is, and who to call when and if I predecease her. If you do not or cannot take this step, your pile will face uncertain or sad prospects when you go. Also, the other people looking at what you have draw their own conclusions, so it does not matter if Don was a saint and perfect organizer, or totally unorganized, what matters is what his family saw, and knew. So careful approaches like ones requested here are very wise at the moment. Some thought by those of you who cannot think of anyone in your immediate family who knows what you want done should think too. What your buddy Bubba knows, probably won't matter if you check out unexpectedly, he may not be able to get into the house to sell off your Imsai's or moose head collection. Jim From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 16 11:14:54 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:14:54 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <20050515145522.SHZQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050515145522.SHZQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200505161114.54745.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 15 May 2005 09:55, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>September and October 1985 > > > >Nope that is the SB180 I have those. I'm also looking for the > > BCC180 info and the BCC is not the SB. > > I found a couple of references via Google that suggest that the > BCC180 was covered by several articals in 1988 - unfortunately I have > very little 1988 byte - but this info may help someone else find it. I've found my copies of Jan - Mar 1988 that have the article. I could potentially let someone "borrow" a copy of the article. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 11:28:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:28:48 -0400 Subject: wanted: VAXstation 4000/60 16MB memory modules - MS44-CA / MS44-DA In-Reply-To: <013401c55880$e1d7ed90$c5b70551@hivemind.org> References: <013401c55880$e1d7ed90$c5b70551@hivemind.org> Message-ID: <4288CA40.2070808@bellatlantic.net> Tom Garcia wrote: > Hello, > > This is my first post on the list -- greetings! I have filled a > VAXstation 4000/60 with four megabyte simms, that I am running vms on as > a hobbyist home server... unfortunately this limits me to 32 meg, and > about to add Pathworks will certainly tip her over the edge. > > I was wondering if anyone had any of the 16 megabyte sticks lying > around-- part number printed on the board I think is 54-19103-CA , sold > in packs of one or two as MS44-CA / MS44-DA respectively. Various other > models of the series I believe use them, though not the /96. > > I would be happy to pay for shipping from anywhere; I am in (old) > England. Swap for some four megabyte modules is also possible, if > someone needs them instead! Alternatively, any pointers as to where > would be good to look would be gratefully received. I have a stack (6pcs) of SIMMS that are non PC. They are for DEC systems but none I have. The are marked in the middle with: 5019464-02 and have 18, 41C1000 chips and two 1926876 chips on two sides Anyone know what they are for? They are available. Allison From willisjo at zianet.com Mon May 16 11:35:24 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:35:24 -0600 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <17032.41811.346639.33411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200505131807.OAA11095@wordstock.com> <17028.61675.101573.958927@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <81BF71E9-3C99-4602-9C69-4CB280EEE9F8@gmail.com> <17032.41811.346639.33411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050516163524.96894.qmail@halo.zianet.com> When I took C programming in high school, our teacher taught us how to use goto, but if he saw it in our code, we had 30 seconds to justify it to his satisfaction before he'd throw the eraser at us. He was a good shot, too ;) Cheers, --jpw From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 16 12:04:37 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:04:37 -0500 Subject: HP-IB Census In-Reply-To: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> References: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4288D2A5.8070004@pacbell.net> Steve Robertson wrote: > Hey guys, > > I am compiling some information for a HP-IB KnowledgeBase article / FAQ > and need some input. In order to focus my efforts and get the maximum > value from the KB, I need to know what specific information should be > included in the KB/FAQ. Some of the topics I am considering are: > > * Introduction / Tutorial - Basic overview of the protocol > * Protocols - HP-IB, GPIB, SICL, IEEE-488, etc... > * Characteristics - Electrical and physical characteristics > * Instruments - Talking to instruments > * Bus Analyzers - IE HP59401A > * CS-80 disks - The CS-80 / SS-80 protocols > * Programming - Linux, HP-UX, C, assembler, other > > So... I'd like to hear from anyone that is interested in HP-IB as to > what they would like to see in the KB. Please reply to the cctech list > or directly to me at steerex[at]mindspring[dot]com. Steve, I'd say the best use of your time would be to (1) collect the best existing articles on the subjects above and provide an overview and pointers to the articles. ideally all the articles could be hosted by jay so that we don't need to worry about dead links, but if there are copyright issues, perhaps point to the document if it exists online and hold on to a copy in case the link ever goes dead; when that day comes, then spend the time to get approval to post the stashed copy (2) if any of the topics above doesn't have a good existing document, then think about writing one. a good summary for each is also very useful. (3) one thread that keeps coming up over and over on the list is which HP mass storage devices work in which computers. collecting that list would be great. I have stored a number of these emails from the list if you want me to send you what I've kept on the subject. (4) I recently wanted to capture the contents of a ROM that was soldered into a board. I didn't want to unsolder it, so I used by HP 1631D logic analyzer to monitor all the pins while the computer was driving it with a test program that made sure every address was getting hit. I used my hp87 to drive the logic analyzer via HPIB and repeatedly sampled the pins, analyzed what was captured and repeated until I had seen all addresses. Finally I dumped the final ROM image to my PC via the serial adapter. It took me about four hours to figure out how to program everything, having never done it before. it would have been very useful for me to have seen other such code before I tried mine. I'd be happy to give you my program in case somebody else finds such a thing useful. It seems like there is very little in the way of HP-8x's BASIC examples on the web that I could find, much less examples showing how to drive test equipment. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 16 12:04:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <200505161704.KAA21066@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Al Kossow" > > > A collector collects. A packrat accumulates. > > > >Collect and accumulate are synonyms. > >-- > >"Collect" in this context implies some order and method to the aquisition. > >Being a packrat is to gather things randomly, then to hoard what has >been gathered. > Ok Al, about where do you rate yourself. I'm about 60% packrat and 40% collector. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Mon May 16 12:09:35 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:09:35 -0700 Subject: Don's archive Message-ID: <4288D3CF.2D2B5D08@rain.org> Something that might be considered is to start the "Don Maslin Bootdisk Software Archive" since this might be a way of addressing the needs of everyone. Perhaps Winnie also needs to understand that *many* people have contributed to the archive and it is *very* unlikely that Don would have wanted "his" archive to become unavailble to the community he supported. > > However, that all being said I am of the opinion after carefully reading all > the posts on this topic that I've seen... that Winnie has no intention > whatsoever to let go of the documentation and/or software. One could imagine > she needs to hold on to it as something tangible of Don. One could imagine > that based on the way some things were phrased, that she is under the > (false) impression it is worth a kings ransom in real dollars and is holding > off disposition because she's frantically searching for an appraiser to tell > her what she wants to hear. I'm not making judgements here, just pondering > the technical possibilities. > > Kind regards, > > Jay West > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 16 12:17:07 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 series 30 and III on ebay Message-ID: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> I normally wouldn't post this, but I have no way to save these and would REALLY like to get copies of the control store proms from them for future use in simulators. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5198040316 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5198040308 Unfortunately, Crisis scrapped all of their early 3000 boards about a year ago, just before I started looking for the data. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 16 12:23:58 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don's archive Message-ID: <200505161723.KAA21071@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "jim stephens" > ---snip--- > >Without any information about the specifics of Don's situation, let me say >that my wife and heirs know what my pile is, and who to call when and if >I predecease her. If you do not or cannot take this step, your pile will face >uncertain or sad prospects when you go. > Hi I think part of the problem is that it is hard to explain to another family member what it is that we do. I've tried to explain to my sister inlaw once but soon gave up. It was like trying to explain things in a foriegn language that she didn't know. My guess is that Don may have tried to relate to his wife what it was he was doing but for something like this, there wasn't enough common ground to communicate. Even for a husband and wife, there are things that never get fully communicated. Each eventually learns to just not push the issue if it doesn't need immediate action. The phase " Yes, Dear " comes to mind. Even if he did explain it to her, she may never have understood what it was he was doing and how important it was to him. Without the common ground to discuss such things, it just doesn't work. Putting things in a will is just about the best way to try to deal with such things. Not only that one wishes things properly handled but it is best to find a trusted friend that you can put their name in the will so that the family, through greed or ignorence, can't block your wishes. Dwight From spc at conman.org Mon May 16 12:28:27 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516163524.96894.qmail@halo.zianet.com> from "willisjo@zianet.com" at May 16, 2005 10:35:24 AM Message-ID: <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great willisjo at zianet.com once stated: > > When I took C programming in high school, our teacher taught us how to use > goto, but if he saw it in our code, we had 30 seconds to justify it to his > satisfaction before he'd throw the eraser at us. He was a good shot, too ;) I've been programming in C since 1990, and in that time, I've only used GOTOs under three conditions (as far as I can remember): 1. A function with a lot of cleanup required if it fails, so I use a GOTO to clean up before returning an error; this is rare for me though. 2. State machines. It keeps me sane. This is my biggest use of GOTOs. My HTML parser has 22 GOTOs (22 states) and without the use of GOTOs, the code would probably be more of a mess than it already is. 3. *VERY* rarely, as a mechanism for exceptions, and then, I use setjmp()/longjmp() (which are non-local GOTOs in C). I think I played around with this a few times, but gave up on it (I don't particularly care for the semantics of setjmp() and it has some rather nasty restrictions on the return value). -spc (I do tend though, to use multiple returns in a function ... ) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 16 12:29:16 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <20050516172916.73EF070C744E@bitsavers.org> > Ok Al, about where do you rate yourself. Tough question.. I have WAAAAAY too much stuff right now. I made the decision about five years ago to get rid of all of my paper by scanning it and donating it to the CHM. The first part mostly happened, but getting rid of the paper didn't and now I have 10x the paper that I did five years ago. I have decided to dispose of a LOT of what I currently have. There is one meta project, the preservation of documentation and software that has to guide what I keep and what I get rid of. Since I don't beleive in using old systems for the recovery of old data, many of the machines I have could go. The physical mechanisms that are necessary (like disc and tape drives) will stay, interfaced to more modern harware. From kth at srv.net Mon May 16 12:37:04 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:37:04 -0600 Subject: tk70? what's normal? In-Reply-To: <200505161555.j4GFtxoH023713@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200505161555.j4GFtxoH023713@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4288DA40.1030809@srv.net> Brad Parker wrote: >I have little/no experience with tk50/tk70 and I transplanted a tk70 >into a mv4000 and I'm curious about 'normal operation' > >When it powers up the 3 leds all come on and then the write prot goes >out, the "in use" starts flashing and the 'handle' led (green) stays on. > >I notice that if the i/o connector is in backward all 3 leds will flash >and the handle led will never come on. > >When the cable is in properly (I presume), the green led is on and the >'in use' just keeps flashing. Occationally it makes little scraping >noises like it's trying to load the tape. > >I did try and load a tape and found it sucked the tape in but refused to >unload it. The in-use light just flashed and flashed. I found I had to >angle the tape it a bit to get the interlock to release so I could >insert the cart. > >Is this drive dead/broken perhaps? > > > There is a tape leader built into the drive, one end attached to the take-up reel and the other with a sorta rounded T shaped hook on the end. This hooks onto the end of the tape in the tape cartridge, and threads the tape into the takeup spool. Yours sounds like it broke (very common occurrence), or became disconnected (also common). You can sometimes just rethread, reattach it, but if it has been thwaacking inside the drive for a while, the hook is probably been beaten to death by now. DEC used to sell them for about $1.00 per, but good like finding one now. >-brad > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 12:38:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:38:12 -0400 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine Message-ID: <0IGL005GFFNCQOX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Moore's Law/Byte magazine > From: Patrick Finnegan > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:14:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've found my copies of Jan - Mar 1988 that have the article. I could >potentially let someone "borrow" a copy of the article. > I'd like to see a copy of that article myself. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Mon May 16 12:45:31 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:45:31 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGJ0045HD5VXTP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050516133351.0538ab20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: >I just aquired a Tandy T100, really fun little machine. >one of the first steps is to exten the ram (24k more is possible) Zip on over to my Model 100 listserve - you don't have to be subbed to post (but please note in your post if you're not subbed, so folks know to cc: you privately) - there's almost 200 subscribers there... ;-) To post to the list, email m100 at list.30below.com, to sub, send an email to m100-subscribe at list.30below.com and reply to the confirmation email. To see "the next level" of Model 100 mod, check this out: http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm 2 Meg RAM and 4 Megs Flash ROM.... >However.. > >The manual I have the schematic is nth generation and not very readable. I only have the schematic for the 200 in paper form, and it's "buried" yet -- but the manuals are available in PDF form here: http://www.club100.org/library/libdoc.html The Model 100 technical reference manual (with pinouts, schematics, etc.) are available in scanned PDF forms, but I don't know if it's in any better shape than what you have, but I'm quite sure that the at least a few of the members there should have something available. There's a lot of other documents for the Model 100/102/200/NEC 8201A at the club100 site - maybe there's enough info there for you to get what you need... If you need parts, I or someone else on the list can get you parts... ;-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From jdbryan at acm.org Mon May 16 12:49:01 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:49:01 -0400 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050515160702.015f4cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050515133120.027d4640@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200505161749.j4GHn3VV024054@mail.bcpl.net> On 15 May 2005 at 16:07, Joe R. wrote: > The 64000s are big brutes! The OP mentioned that the items were from 1992. By then, the original (big) 64000 development stations were out of production. They last appear in the 1987 HP T&M catalog. They were supplanted by the HP 64000-UX systems -- essentially a card cage for the original 64000 cards, plus software that ran under HP-UX on HP 9000 systems. These units were later replaced by the HP 64700-series of emulators and analyzers; only these appear in the 1992 T&M. The 64700 software ran on PCs and HP and Sun workstations. So the OP's stuff may be either for the 64000-UX or 64700. I don't think that HP was still producing updates for the big 64000 stations that late. > The only peaple that I recall that collect them are Frank McConnal and > Dave somebody out in Texas. -- Dave (somebody in Maryland :-) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon May 16 12:53:22 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Mon, 16 May 05 17:53:22 GMT Subject: tk70? what's normal? Message-ID: <0505161753.AA04197@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Brad Parker wrote: > When the cable is in properly (I presume), the green led is on and the > 'in use' just keeps flashing. It is not supposed to keep flashing, when the drive is idle with no tape in (like after successful power-up) the green LED should be the only one on. It should also make a beep. > Occationally it makes little scraping > noises like it's trying to load the tape. > [...] > Is this drive dead/broken perhaps? I would say so. MS From cfandt at netsync.net Mon May 16 13:00:15 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:00:15 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050514200510.015474e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050515190836.02e65348@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 16:45 15-05-05, Tony Duell said something like: > > Left there and went to see the guy that I'd meet that morning. He gave > > me a ***MINT*** Visual 50 terminal, a MINT Sage II computer with ALL the > >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), >and the _excellent_ owner's manual with full schematics in the back. What >I don't have is an OS for it :-(. If anyone has the set of original disks >that came with such a machine, I am looking for copies (IIRC it was the >UCSD p-system, with some Sage-specific utilities). > > > docs, a working HP 9845B, a stack of manuals for the 9845, a couple of HP > >There's a 9845 in many bits on my bench at the moment. %deity it's a >complicated machine.... I think I just about understand the buses now >(and evne that's complicated -- there are 2 main buses, essentially >'language' ROMs and memory on one, 'peripheral' ROMs and memory on the >other (one ROM drawer is on each bus), both processors have access to Tony, the HP250 CPU is said to be the same as the 9845* except for different microcode. Reference this website if you can: http://www.hp-eloquence.com/history/history.html Anyway, a couple of lines of text in the description on that site states: "Technically a descant [sic, probably meant descendant] of the HP9845 workstation it was targeted at the commercial market." and further went on to state: "The HP250 used a HP proprietary 16 bit processor (similar to the one used with the HP9845) supporting 192 Kb to 512 Kb of memory." Now, to give some real meaning to this posting for you, refer to the set of schematics for the HP250 on bitsavers: http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers/pdf/hp/250/45251-90001_HP250sch_Jun82.pdf Problem is that this is a 14.5 meg file and I think you are still on a slow connection. Maybe somebody near you reading this could print it out for you or somehow get you the file on a CD-RW or something if you use Adobe Reader. Anyway, pages 74 and 75 show the board layout and schema, respectively. Whole document is 142 pgs. I feel this may give you something to work with as you reverse engineer the 9845. You didn't say, and I assume it to be very much the case given the lack of tech manuals for our own 9825 machines, that there was any tech manual (w/schemas) for the '45, hence my suggestion of this file to at least get something to help you along. I've got an HP250/30 and I dang near passed out when I discovered this drawing set on bitsavers last year! About 15 years ago I even drew out the schematic of the CPU board and part of the HP-IB board just to learn something of the machine. I had been resigned to *never* find anything such as this during the past 20+ years I had the machine. Never say never, as they say . . . Thanks VERY much to whomever scanned and uploaded that seemingly rare HP document! Regards, Chris F. NNNN >both buses, the video system can access both buses via the peripheral >processor's buffers, etc. Evne the PSU is about twice as complex as you'd >expect! > >-tony Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon May 16 13:27:28 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:27:28 -0500 Subject: May need help with rescue in RI In-Reply-To: <008601c551f2$53b82640$6401a8c0@jkearney.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050516132044.077d4b48@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, There is a chance that I may be able to rescue a BBN TC2000 machine located in Rhode Island. This may be my only chance to acquire one of these machines and as I worked on developing them back in the day, I am very interested. I don't have the details yet, but I want to find out if there is someone in the area who might be able to help me in the event that I cannot be present on the specific day that the machine would have to be collected, etc. Please reply to my direct email address. --tnx --tom From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Mon May 16 13:24:47 2005 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:24:47 -0500 Subject: DEC KW11-P Manual Message-ID: <019a01c55a44$8aa56be0$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> I've an original (excellent condition) DEC KW11-P Programmable Real-time Clock manual. The cover is intact. The doc is print-sized. Anyone interested? Make me an offer. Regards, Darren Peterson From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 13:23:10 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:23:10 +0100 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <1116211354.17723.408.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <00c601c55a44$519f2f70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 18:04 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: >> The answer is: UNDEFINED. What it will print is UNDEFINED. >> Good old K & R warns you of SIDE EFFECTS, most specifically >> stupid-human assumptions about the order of evaluation. > No, it will not print "UNDEFINED" it will print something very > well defined. Not true. It's UNDEFINED. There is no requirement to print anything. Your compiler writer might have decided that the compiler should stop at this point. Or it might emit a program that halts at this point. Or anything else might happen. You cannot be sure that the same thing will happen on each run of the program (or of the compiler ...). > Just not defined by the ANSI or ISO folks. It's defined by > your friendly neighborhood compiler writer. I agree that it is unlikley that the compiler writer would have spotted this condition and deliberately decided to do something nasty and subtle (even though you quite obviously deserve it for writing that code). But if the compiler writer did spot it and didn't give you a clear warning and refuse to produce any object code, then clearly (s)he has an evil sense of humour, in which case all bets are off! So you lose either way :-) Your compiler might have been (partially) coded automatically by mechanically translating some representation of the C language (BNF or whatever). So it might well dive off into hyperspace when it hits an undefined expression. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 16 13:36:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:36:25 -0400 Subject: Pathology or hobby? References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050516094709.056eb1d0@mail> Message-ID: <006d01c55a46$2a5ce9f0$985d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 11:02 AM Subject: Pathology or hobby? > At 08:17 PM 5/14/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >It's cause for serious personal reflection -- are you a packrat > >or a collector? Packrat syndrome is serious, the cliche is a > >house filled with bundled newspapers and magazines stacked to > >the ceiling, that falls on the elderly 'rat, killing them, etc. > >I know someone else with packrat-itis. I suspect it's rampant > >in this list. > > I'm confident it's rampant on this list. Sellam said "A collector > collects. A packrat accumulates." There's plenty of room for > semantics here. So where's the fine line between collecting > whatever you can get your hands on, and packrat-ism? It's slippery > slope, starting with one of something, then more for spare parts. > For some, the only upper bound is available space. > > I could write a book on it. Many other people have. There are > many motivations, many potential causes and behaviors and beliefs > that perpetuate it. I'm all for a libertarian view of life that > lets people live in their parent's basement and collect old > computers, but on the other hand there's also room for advice > about what makes life worth living, and how an excess of possessions > can overwhelm your life. There is a cost to collecting / accumulating, > even if the computers are free. > > - John > In my view a collector looks for specific machines and parts to complete his collection and does not have many multiples of duplicates. A packrat will take anything in that is offered to him working or not, even if he has no space for it. From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:38:23 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:38:23 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050516163524.96894.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: The other one I use it for is jumping past the top of a loop the first time only (this code probably doesn't work but you get the idea...): #define DIM(a) (sizeof (a) / sizeof (*(a))) int ary[4] = {1,3,5,7}; . . . print_ary (ary, DIM (ary)); void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) { goto skip_comma; for (;n;aryp++, n--) { printf (", "); skip_comma: printf ("%u", *aryp); } printf ("\n"); } State machines? If it is complex enough usually the better solution is a two-way (current state, input) table of function pointers, unless your implementation language doesn't support some analog to function pointers... -- John. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 16 13:39:52 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:39:52 -0700 Subject: HP3000 series 30 and III on ebay In-Reply-To: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow's message of "Mon, 16 May 2005 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT)") References: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200505161839.j4GIdqFu025350@lots.reanimators.org> Al Kossow wrote: > I normally wouldn't post this, but I have no way to save these > and would REALLY like to get copies of the control store proms > from them for future use in simulators. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5198040316 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5198040308 On the series III, the auction states: "The interior compartments are full of empty card cages." And one of the photos has the flash going a bit farther into the card cages than I would expect if they were populated. I'm thinking that means the control store PROMs are not there. Harder to tell about the 30, but likewise I'm on the wrong side of the continent. -Frank McConnell From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 16 01:56:29 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:56:29 +0100 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 May 2005 20:43:51 CDT." <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200505160656.HAA19233@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Scott Stevens said: > Some > people could interpret a 'close community, agree not to bid against each > other, cooperative community' spirit as unethical bidder-collusion. > Isn't that wrong, too? I think someone has already pointed out that it is illegal in the UK. You could go to jail for it :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 16 01:48:01 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:48:01 +0100 Subject: Vax 4000/90 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 May 2005 13:25:27 PDT." <00b101c5598c$3ba834e0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200505160648.HAA19147@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "vrs" said: > Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in the auction (in case > anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then enter a snipe for the actual amount I > am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the same system.) > > The rules are set up so that all the action will be in the last minute. > There's no way a user sitting at a workstation can follow the action in the > last 30 seconds, so skip the stress-out. You can bid early (which tips your > hand), or download the sniping software. I like the sniping software, > because you can enter your bid, then forget about it until the auction is > over. So the auction becomes, in effect, a sealed bid tender. (I've bought things from the government that way.) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 13:49:14 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:49:14 +0100 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <4288AE68.4020905@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <00c701c55a47$f62ed790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jim Battle wrote: > Here is a list of the various system disks he had images for: > > http://www.gaby.de/sysdisk.htm *If* that is a complete list (I didn't count, maybe 500 system disks?), how hard would it be to replicate? We could all sign up with what we have (via a webpage, a bit of PHP and MySQL) and then offer to make copies on an as needed basis. For the first request for System-X, everyone registered as having System-X is emailed asking for a copy. Someone offers to supply the copy and uploads it. It is then available for others (and future requests are fufilled automatically without bothering anyone). Throw in a mechanism to indicate whether a copy did or did not work for you, and you have the makings of a feedback system. Once a replacement for teledisk is found, existing stuff could be converted. Perhaps it might be best to allow for multiple image formats for the same data. Given the small size of old system images, storage space is hardly going to be a problem. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vrs at msn.com Mon May 16 13:57:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:57:23 -0700 Subject: Vax 4000/90 References: <200505160648.HAA19147@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: From: "Stan Barr" > "vrs" said: > > Items I still need, I will usually bid once early in the auction (in case > > anyone wants to honor my "dibs"), then enter a snipe for the actual amount I > > am willing to pay. (Others seem to be using the same system.) ... > So the auction becomes, in effect, a sealed bid tender. > (I've bought things from the government that way.) Very similar, except that I will generally end up paying a bid increment over the second highest bid, which is likely to be less than the full amount that I bid. Vince From tomj at wps.com Mon May 16 14:06:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050515211613.47951031.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050515101803.0d55b8c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050515202247.168998ef.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050515183603.V44483@shell.lmi.net> <20050515211613.47951031.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050516115610.O730@localhost> On Sun, 15 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > And if you hadn't accumulated it to give away to other people more > interested, it would have all ended up in the dumpster at the point just > before when you supposedly 'packratted' it. > > Sometimes one gets the idea here that if you don't mount each item on a > piece of walnut with a brass plaque labeling it, you're just piling up > junk. > > Lord, how I wish I had kept ('packratted' to use that dirty word) some > of the computer-related things in the past I've had that I apparently > wasn't "collecting" back at that point in time. What you, I, Don, or anyone does with their pile of stuff is none of anyone's business. Really -- altruistic archiving or selfish hoarding, if you obtained it in a legal manner it's no one's business, period... though of course we're allowed our own opinions of you/me :-) The only larger point I mean to make is: whatever you're doing, do it on purpose. I'm not a collector by any means; I don't think collecting is a higher calling. Archiving, like Al Kossow does, is a demonstrable positive value to the culture at large; few of us actually do that, it's work. Collecting one each of the motorcycles on the cover of 1971's CYCLE WORLD for no reason than personal satisfaction (or obsession) is fine (I know someone who did this). It's all fine, personal and NOMDB(1). But gathering together a large number of rare, desirable items (however subjective) into one place without a will or letter of intent is not "archiving". In fact it's the opposite -- items were taken out of circulation probably permanently. Actions matter, intent ain't shit the next day. Someone else can have the last word. (1) None Of My Damn Business. From news at computercollector.com Mon May 16 14:11:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:11:57 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! Message-ID: <200505161911.j4GJB9sg084815@dewey.classiccmp.org> Big thank you to whoever got my PDA history article on Slashdot! I was a Slashdot virgin 'til now. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 16 14:19:01 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:19:01 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050516163524.96894.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> John Hogerhuis wrote: > The other one I use it for is jumping past the top of a loop the first > time only (this code probably doesn't work but you get the idea...): > > #define DIM(a) (sizeof (a) / sizeof (*(a))) > > int ary[4] = {1,3,5,7}; > . > . > . > print_ary (ary, DIM (ary)); > > void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) > { > > goto skip_comma; > for (;n;aryp++, n--) > { > printf (", "); > > skip_comma: > printf ("%u", *aryp); > } > printf ("\n"); > > } I'd do this, and didn't even know that jumping into the middle of the FOR loop was legal. Even knowing it is legal, I prefer my way (of course): void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) { int i; for (i=0; i0) printf (", "); printf ("%u", *aryp); } printf ("\n"); } From tomj at wps.com Mon May 16 14:21:10 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Frontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: <428815BD.30102@ix.netcom.com> References: <428815BD.30102@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050516120758.G730@localhost> On Sun, 15 May 2005, Billy Pettit wrote: > 3M used to make a product that was a thin alunimum with a photo emulsion on > it. It worked like a blue print. Make your master on vellim, print it using > a blue print machine and develop it with ammonia. THat reminded me of stuff I've used from 3M, it was called COLORKEY, then COLORKEY II. The old stuff (1970's) was great -- adhesive aluminum, plastic, clear, non-adhesives, etc in various simple colors, with a light-sensitive layer in a contrasting color; white on red, black on aluminum, black on clear, white on blue, etc. We used it for PCB masks and front panels both. Exposures with 100% contrast negative, photoflood light about 3? minutes, a fairly non-toxic developer w/cotton ball. Rinse dry use. Cheap too! About 1996 I hunted it down again, was still around as COLORKEY II, but I could only find clear substrate. The litho industry used a lot of the clear stuff, I don't know what happened to the rest. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 14:23:28 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:23:28 +0100 Subject: wanted: VAXstation 4000/60 16MB memory modules - MS44-CA /MS44-DA In-Reply-To: <4288CA40.2070808@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <00ca01c55a4c$be6ce8b0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Allison wrote: > I have a stack (6pcs) of SIMMS that are non PC. They are for > DEC systems but none I have. The are marked in the middle > with: > > 5019464-02 and have 18, 41C1000 chips and two 1926876 chips on > two sides > > Anyone know what they are for? They are available. I think that is a 2MB SIMM for the DECstation 5000 family (or the DECsystem 5000). I think I have some too, but I doubt I could locate them in a hurry :-) My VS4000-60 has six 54-19145-AU in it (4MB memory each). The PCB part number is 50-19144. Not what the OP needs, but next time I need to know, I can find it here via google! My VS4000-90 could do with four more of the 16MB modules and I'm in the UK (like the original poster), so if any turn up ... I'd be happy to help with the excess :-) If it encourages someone to dig some up, I'm about make the aforesaid VS4000-90 my desktop VAX real soon now! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From spc at conman.org Mon May 16 14:26:46 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at May 16, 2005 02:19:01 PM Message-ID: <20050516192646.52B3C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Battle once stated: > > John Hogerhuis wrote: > > > The other one I use it for is jumping past the top of a loop the first > > time only (this code probably doesn't work but you get the idea...): > > > > void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) > > { > > > > goto skip_comma; > > for (;n;aryp++, n--) > > { > > printf (", "); > > > > skip_comma: > > printf ("%u", *aryp); > > } > > printf ("\n"); > > > > } > > I'd do this, and didn't even know that jumping into the middle of the > FOR loop was legal. Even knowing it is legal, I prefer my way (of course): > > void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) > { > int i; > for (i=0; i { > if (i>0) > printf (", "); > printf ("%u", *aryp); > } > printf ("\n"); > } I'd skip both the GOTO and the conditional and do it: void print_ary(int *aryp,size_t n) { size_t i; char *sep; assert(aryp != NULL); /* sorry, gotta check */ assert(n > 0); for (i = 0 , sep = "" ; i < n ; aryp++ , i++) { printf("%s%u",sep,&aryp); sep = ","; } putchar('\n'); } -spc (Who tries to avoid conditionals when possible ... ) From news at computercollector.com Mon May 16 14:32:07 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <200505161911.j4GJB9sg084815@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505161931.j4GJV9OD085245@dewey.classiccmp.org> LOL ... Man some people are so dense ... The top two feedback comments on Slashdot so far are "you barely talked about 96-2005" (when the HEADLINE says it ends at 95) and "you should include the Hitchhikers Guide" (which I did include). I wish people who read before replying... Guess being on that site is a double-edged sword! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:12 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Woohoo! Big thank you to whoever got my PDA history article on Slashdot! I was a Slashdot virgin 'til now. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 14:35:11 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:35:11 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGL005INL29QN81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:45:31 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > >>I just aquired a Tandy T100, really fun little machine. >>one of the first steps is to exten the ram (24k more is possible) > >Zip on over to my Model 100 listserve - you don't have to be subbed to post >(but please note in your post if you're not subbed, so folks know to cc: >you privately) - there's almost 200 subscribers there... ;-) That may be handy. >To see "the next level" of Model 100 mod, check this out: > >http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm > >2 Meg RAM and 4 Megs Flash ROM.... > That is a pretty site, shame behind all the pretty pictures it's a grand set of 404s. None of the tech docs are there. >I only have the schematic for the 200 in paper form, and it's "buried" yet >-- but the manuals are available in PDF form here: > >http://www.club100.org/library/libdoc.html This location I'd not looked at yet. The manual from there is readable and printable (and HUGE!). >If you need parts, I or someone else on the list can get you parts... >;-) I have plenty of 8kx8 and 256kx8s, nice fast CMOS from old 386 and 486 cache memories. those will be the base of the first upgrade (24k more ram for full 32k). The second will be a overlay ram for the lower 32k (for those times when I want a full ram system). Thanks! Allison From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:37:57 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:37:57 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516192646.52B3C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> <20050516192646.52B3C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I'd skip both the GOTO and the conditional and do it: > > void print_ary(int *aryp,size_t n) > { > size_t i; > char *sep; > > assert(aryp != NULL); /* sorry, gotta check */ > assert(n > 0); > > for (i = 0 , sep = "" ; i < n ; aryp++ , i++) > { > printf("%s%u",sep,&aryp); > sep = ","; > } > putchar('\n'); > } > > -spc (Who tries to avoid conditionals when possible ... ) > > Clever. I don't like the conditional either, but you are also unnecessarily reinitializing sep every time through the loop. With the goto I avoid both the conditional and the reinit. In a way I guess I'm creating a new control structure (at least new to me). Heck maybe I'll add it as a full bonified control structure in my WP-2 Forth. Forth doesn't have goto, but it gives you the tools to create your own control structures, so a good trade-off. BTW, I think you mean *aryp not &aryp -- John. From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:45:29 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:45:29 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> References: <20050516163524.96894.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Jim Battle wrote: > I'd do this, and didn't even know that jumping into the middle of the > FOR loop was legal. Even knowing it is legal, I prefer my way (of course): > > void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) > { > int i; > for (i=0; i { > if (i>0) > printf (", "); > printf ("%u", *aryp); > } > printf ("\n"); > } > > Jumping into a for loop is legal (in C anyway, problematic in C++ if you're using automatic object variables w/ constructor that needs executing on entry to the block). You miss the initializer altogether, the test the first time through, but you'll hit the first increment at the bottom of the loop. I could do it your way, but it has an unnecessary conditional. Not a big sacrifice, I admit. Not worth getting hit with an eraser anyway. -- John. From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 14:54:39 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:54:39 -0700 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGL005INL29QN81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGL005INL29QN81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: > >To see "the next level" of Model 100 mod, check this out: > > > >http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm > > > >2 Meg RAM and 4 Megs Flash ROM.... > > > > That is a pretty site, shame behind all the pretty pictures it's a > grand set of 404s. None of the tech docs are there. > I run Bitchin100.com. I've been pushing Steve to get me a new set of documents, he moved everything around on his site that I had linked to. Right now he's deep into testing the board, so the stale data sheet links are indicative of nothing more than priority on getting working prototypes to the software developers (including me). Maybe tonight I'll get rid of the dead links. In any event the important specs are summarized there on the left hand column. -- John. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 16 14:58:33 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:58:33 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <200505161931.j4GJV9OD085245@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505161931.j4GJV9OD085245@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505161458.33285.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 16 May 2005 14:32, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > LOL ... Man some people are so dense ... The top two feedback > comments on Slashdot so far are "you barely talked about 96-2005" > (when the HEADLINE says it ends at 95) and "you should include the > Hitchhikers Guide" (which I did include). > > I wish people who read before replying... Guess being on that site is > a double-edged sword! It's Slashdot - what do you expect? Useful commentary?? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From allain at panix.com Mon May 16 15:31:47 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:31:47 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <00c601c55a44$519f2f70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <005c01c55a56$48b78080$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Not true. It's UNDEFINED. There is no requirement... - - - From: Eric J Korpela > The result of this is that the programmer is executed properly. > Or should be at least. Nuff said, and, Excellent. Thanks. John A. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 15:33:50 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:33:50 -0500 Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I would strongly discourage the use of Teledisk for this. The file format > is proprietary, and although there have been some attempts to > reverse-engineer it, AFAIK the full details aren't know (particularly of > Teledisk compressed files). F-prot has been able to scan inside teledisk images for over a decade. One of the authors graciously let me look at the source a while ago and the compression is nothing more than LHA (ie the free lharc source by yoshi). I might still have the source somewhere, but it's buried in email archives going back a decade. If someone needs it to do something useful, let me know off-list and I can try to dig it up. (It would give me an excuse to finally organize and index my email archives!) > If you use Teledisk, you _have_ to use an > MS-DOS PC to re-write the data to a physical disk (and a PC with the > appropriate type of floppy drive), you _have_ to get Teledisk (last time > I checked, it wasn't free, it was shareware, but you could no longer > register it...). etc. If your PC can't write FM formats, then you're > stuck (even if you've got 100 machines that _can_ write such formats, and > which can get data from a PC disk or similar). The problem with various methods of archiving diskettes is that they are all proprietary methods with drawbacks: Disk2FDI: works with any disk, requires dual-drive PC or special cable, file format is bitstream and extremely complicated to work with Central Point Option Board: works with FM/MFM/GCR disks, requires special hardware Catweasel: works with any disk, requires special hardware, no mature software exists specifically for archiving, no mature/stable file format Teledisk: works with MFM disks only, file format not published, limited CopyIIPC+Snatchit: works with MFM disks only, requires old PC, file format not understood Nobody has tackled this to any great capacity. Disk2FDI is the best option right now since the file format is well described, but at the same time the files produced by Disk2FDI are nothing more than bitstreams that are nearly impossible to work with without knowledge of the controller hardware. (In fact, the only application other than Disk2FDI that works with FDI images is WinUAE, since it emulates the disk controller at all levels.) When I started archiving my 5.25" software in the 1990s, much of it copy-protected, I settled on the Central Point Option Board. This was for several reasons: I knew I would always have 8088-80386 hardware to use with the board; I only had MFM/FM/GCR disks to archive (ie no hard-sectored/proprietary/goofy formats); the file format is a hybrid of raw (gap length, header info) and cooked (actual sector DATA stored as bytes) which was the most useful to me (without any knowledge of the archive file, I can do "strings filename.img" and read plaintext data. Whenever I saw an option board for sale @ $20 or less (usually not on ebay), I would pick it up as a spare. I have 5 "spares" now :-) > Any such archive must be made as accessible as possible, and that means > using documented file formats. To be honest, I'd rather have to write my > own software than do battle with a proprietary PC program. But then *your* program would be proprietary :-) What is needed, and has been attempted and mostly failed by several different people, is this: - A standard method of describing not only what is stored on a diskette, but HOW and WHY (to make sense of all the gap/header/sync/etc. bits) - A common way of getting that information off the disk, which will probably require interfaces to PCs or MACs because the original hardware may not be able to provide every single flux off the disk - Well written "disk controller emulation" utility programs to translate the archived stream of bits into useful data, the highest priority being the ability to extract individual files As you can imagine, everyone has their own idea on how to do this. Not surprisingly, the people who have had the most headway with projects like this have been software pirates (reformed, grown-up, 9-to-5 job software pirates) who -- though they mean well -- have a very limited vision of what archival is. (Meaning, if you can read the files, and run the program, it's good to them. Who knows what kind of alterations had to be made to get to that point, but they don't care. I personally WANT copy-protection to remain intact, etc. I want exact copies.) Until some common standard is defined and widely accepted and applies equally to every type of diskette-based magetic medium, I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing that works for me, and I'll contribute my work to the global standard if/when it exists. Just because there isn't a standard doesn't mean I should hold off archiving. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 15:38:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:38:29 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGL0047RNZRXT2C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: John Hogerhuis > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:54:39 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: > >> >To see "the next level" of Model 100 mod, check this out: >> > >> >http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm >> > >> >2 Meg RAM and 4 Megs Flash ROM.... >> > >> >> That is a pretty site, shame behind all the pretty pictures it's a >> grand set of 404s. None of the tech docs are there. >> > >I run Bitchin100.com. I've been pushing Steve to get me a new set of >documents, he moved everything around on his site that I had linked >to. thats understandable, just make the links "under construction" then as we then know something is happening rather than the site appearing abandoned. >Right now he's deep into testing the board, so the stale data sheet >links are indicative of nothing more than priority on getting working >prototypes to the software developers (including me). > >Maybe tonight I'll get rid of the dead links. thanks. >In any event the important specs are summarized there on the left hand column. I read them bit there are some ???? as to how it integrates and is applied. Allison From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon May 16 15:44:08 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Frontpanel Labels In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050516204408.26135.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> I think the places that make custom die cut decals http://www.decaljunky.com/ may also be a good place to make frontpanel labels, they peel off with no background (looks like they were painted on). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 15:46:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:46:11 -0500 Subject: Pathology or hobby? In-Reply-To: <006d01c55a46$2a5ce9f0$985d1941@game> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050516094709.056eb1d0@mail> <006d01c55a46$2a5ce9f0$985d1941@game> Message-ID: <42890693.4040701@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > In my view a collector looks for specific machines and parts to complete his > collection and does not have many multiples of duplicates. A packrat will > take anything in that is offered to him working or not, even if he has no > space for it. I agree with this definition. As the son of a packrat, and a quasi-packrat myself, I can tell you about my father: He is a coin collector, and our basement, tables, ping-pong table, etc. were (and still are) covered up with numismatics newspapers and various research materials. Although I am guessing, I am fairly certain that he holds onto all these materials because he fears he will not have access to information when he needs it -- someday -- when writing an article for some publication. I inherited this from him; whether or not it was passed down genetically or socially I cannot confirm :-) Case in point: I have always wanted to write essays ("put up web pages" in today's world) on various 1980's personal computer topics, such as copy-protection methods or generating sound and music. Along those lines, there was a time when I was bidding on sound cards every other week because "that could be the last one I will ever find and if I miss it I won't ever be able to write an article on it". Of course, time passes, and I find myself with no time to write said articles/essays, and I have a metric buttload of sound cards taking up space. So am I hoarding or collecting? In the area of sound cards, probably a little of both, as I plan to sell/give away the cards I am not interested in after I write my articles. In the case of Central Point Option Boards, I definitely am hoarding them because my own archives are in that format and I will always need an Option Board to decode them properly. In the area of early computer game software, I am most definitely a collector, as I have all my titles arranged neatly on shelves, presented and displayed, and easily accessible. So you can be a mixture of all the above :) but the main point, for me, is that a collector presents and displays his collection, and keeps it accessible... whereas a packrat hoardes, doesn't always know what he has, and can't get to everything in his possession. (BTW, John, very nice wording on your thoughts on the subject.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 15:51:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:51:51 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20050516172916.73EF070C744E@bitsavers.org> References: <20050516172916.73EF070C744E@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <428907E7.1080005@oldskool.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Since I don't beleive in using > old systems for the recovery of old data, Why? (I feel the opposite, as what better system to get the data than the system it was designed for? I'd like to hear your opinion.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:59:50 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:59:50 -0700 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGL0047RNZRXT2C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGL0047RNZRXT2C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: The basic idea is that Remem implements in CPLD a memory management unit dividing the 64K address space into 64 1K blocks (actually more than that since the option ROM is emulated). So you can map any 1K block from anywhere in RAM or flash into the 64K address space any way you like. For compatibility it also emulates a 256K "Rampac" which is a vintage external device that hooks to the I/O bus port on a T102. There are multiple MMU maps selectable via an I/O instruction for fast-switching of virtual Model 100 environments. So for example you can have one map with a native Forth-in-ROM, and a couple of maps with the standard ROM but distinct RAM portions (the latter much like the "banks" in a T200 or NEC 8300 laptop) Each block in the map can be marked read-only so that if you are emulating ROM with RAM or flash you get a perfect emulation, i.e. any writes against ROM don't get applied. Also remem allows running any option ROM by loading the image to flash or RAM and mapping it into the option ROM bank. -- John. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 16:08:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-IB Census In-Reply-To: <4288D2A5.8070004@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > (4) I recently wanted to capture the contents of a ROM that was soldered > into a board. I didn't want to unsolder it, so I used by HP 1631D logic > analyzer to monitor all the pins while the computer was driving it with > a test program that made sure every address was getting hit. I used my > hp87 to drive the logic analyzer via HPIB and repeatedly sampled the > pins, analyzed what was captured and repeated until I had seen all > addresses. Finally I dumped the final ROM image to my PC via the serial > adapter. It took me about four hours to figure out how to program > everything, having never done it before. it would have been very useful > for me to have seen other such code before I tried mine. I'd be happy > to give you my program in case somebody else finds such a thing useful. Wow, cool technique! Would definitely like to see this in the KB. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 16:12:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:12:24 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGL00BAPPKAIFK1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: John Hogerhuis > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:59:50 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >The basic idea is that Remem implements in CPLD a memory management >unit dividing the 64K address space into 64 1K blocks (actually more >than that since the option ROM is emulated). So you can map any 1K >block from anywhere in RAM or flash into the 64K address space any way >you like. Ok, the usual MMU only fairly fine grained. Does any apps make use of that kind of MMU and space? >For compatibility it also emulates a 256K "Rampac" which is a vintage >external device that hooks to the I/O bus port on a T102. unfamiliar. >There are multiple MMU maps selectable via an I/O instruction for >fast-switching of virtual Model 100 environments. So for example you >can have one map with a native Forth-in-ROM, and a couple of maps with >the standard ROM but distinct RAM portions (the latter much like the >"banks" in a T200 or NEC 8300 laptop) Ok, I've done this on other systems and S100. >Each block in the map can be marked read-only so that if you are >emulating ROM with RAM or flash you get a perfect emulation, i.e. any >writes against ROM don't get applied. Handy! Now I understand what it is and the basic logic inside. Like many MMU based 8bitters the addition of large ram is usually to emulate disk. I'm curious to see if any actually do swaping or overlay so the app can access a larger space or larger data. The reason for that is most cases that is rare or not even done. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 16:12:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516172827.A216973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > 2. State machines. It keeps me sane. This is my biggest use of > GOTOs. My HTML parser has 22 GOTOs (22 states) and without the use > of GOTOs, the code would probably be more of a mess than it already > is. I always use a SWITCH construct inside a loop to accomplish this sort of thing. > -spc (I do tend though, to use multiple returns in a function ... ) Me too. I see no problem with that. (As long as you properly clean up on your way out.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 16 16:17:06 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:17:06 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <428907E7.1080005@oldskool.org> References: <20050516172916.73EF070C744E@bitsavers.org> <428907E7.1080005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42890DD2.nailVV1SI6VQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> Since I don't believe in using old systems for the recover of old data > Why? Not answering for Al, but for myself: if you do recover the old data without using the old system, then you've demonstrated a very good understanding of all the encodings and steps needed. > as what better system to get the data than the system it was designed for? Having access to the original system is indeed very good for verifying that you have done the job properly. Tim. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 16:18:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:18:24 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >print_ary (ary, DIM (ary)); > >void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) >{ > > goto skip_comma; > for (;n;aryp++, n--) > { > printf (", "); > >skip_comma: > printf ("%u", *aryp); > } > printf ("\n"); > >} >> I'd skip both the GOTO and the conditional and do it: >> >> void print_ary(int *aryp,size_t n) >> { >> size_t i; >> char *sep; >> >> assert(aryp != NULL); /* sorry, gotta check */ >> assert(n > 0); >> >> for (i = 0 , sep = "" ; i < n ; aryp++ , i++) >> { >> printf("%s%u",sep,&aryp); >> sep = ","; >> } >> putchar('\n'); >> } >Clever. I don't like the conditional either, but you are also >unnecessarily reinitializing sep every time through the loop. With the >goto I avoid both the conditional and the reinit. Given that the original example assumes n > 0 (the test is skipped on first entry to the loop), you can accomplish this function with neither an extra conditional, superfluous assignment, extra variables or use of 'goto' void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) { int i; for(i=0; ;) { printf("%u", aryp[i]); if(++i >= n) break; fputs(", ", stdout); } putc('\n', stdout); } -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:25:13 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:25:13 -0700 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGL00BAPPKAIFK1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGL00BAPPKAIFK1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: > > Ok, the usual MMU only fairly fine grained. Does any apps make use of > that kind of MMU and space? > Not yet, this is a new thing, and there's no software to take advantage of the full potential yet. > >Each block in the map can be marked read-only so that if you are > >emulating ROM with RAM or flash you get a perfect emulation, i.e. any > >writes against ROM don't get applied. > > Handy! > Handy and required... some vintage ROMs do some funny stuff writing against ROM for efficiency believe that it won't have any effect. But writing against RAM has an effect, and against flash can lock up the flash since it can trigger its state machine. > Now I understand what it is and the basic logic inside. Like many MMU > based 8bitters the addition of large ram is usually to emulate disk. > I'm curious to see if any actually do swaping or overlay so the app > can access a larger space or larger data. The reason for that is > most cases that is rare or not even done. > Well the M100 uses a RAM based file system. Our MMU is a new thing, so any use made of it beyond emulating multiple M100 fast-switch maps will be by new software. In particular I'm planning a management program that can set up maps and burn new ROMs to flash or set them up in RAM. But the spec will be freely available so user programs can get direct access to extended RAM. All you need to do is CLEAR enough space to get a 1K window and a BASIC program can start PEEKing and POKEing extended RAM without too much trouble. That's why we have such a fine-grain MMU block size. -- John. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon May 16 16:25:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:25:28 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive References: <20050516172916.73EF070C744E@bitsavers.org><428907E7.1080005@oldskool.org> <42890DD2.nailVV1SI6VQ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <002e01c55a5d$cb83fb90$5c3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:17 PM >>> Since I don't believe in using old systems for the recover of old data > >> Why? > > Not answering for Al, but for myself: if you do recover the old > data without using the old system, then you've demonstrated a very > good understanding of all the encodings and steps needed. > >> as what better system to get the data than the system it was designed >> for? > > Having access to the original system is indeed very good for verifying > that you have done the job properly. > > Tim. There is no single answer, sometimes all you have are the media without a working system. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 16:27:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:27:23 -0500 Subject: 'goto' - the debate between 'human' vs 'machine' programming In-Reply-To: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <4289103B.7020906@oldskool.org> Cmurray wrote: > The folks who deplore GOTO are the 'Structured Programming' folks. Who have > a lot of flavors and attempts at 'structured programming' behind > them now, and keep chugging along. It's about sociable coding, as opposed > to asocial 'solitary' coding. Which is important. Agreed, but if the "structured programming" folks don't want GOTOs, then they should simply endorse languages that don't contain them keep quiet about languages that do. I've always thought the "GOTO" argument was dumb. It's just a construct to affect the flow of the program -- a branch made after a decision has been reached. I'd like to think that people who are against GOTO are against bad programming and not the GOTO statement at all. I find it funny that the same people who are against GOTO have no problem with "exit" or "break" in Pascal (which allows breaking out of a loop before the initial loop conditions are met) or JMP in assembler -- both are "GOTOs" in functionality and, in the case of "break", can be just as abused. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:33:45 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:33:45 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Given that the original example assumes n > 0 (the test is skipped on > first entry to the loop), you can accomplish this function with neither > an extra conditional, superfluous assignment, extra variables or use > of 'goto' > > void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) > { > int i; > for(i=0; ;) { > printf("%u", aryp[i]); > if(++i >= n) > break; > fputs(", ", stdout); } > putc('\n', stdout); > } Now that's a right answer. -- John. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 16 16:40:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:40:10 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <4289133A.4000905@bitsavers.org> > Since I don't beleive in using > old systems for the recovery of old data, Why? (I feel the opposite, as what better system to get the data than the system it was designed for? I'd like to hear your opinion.) -- Almost all of the data that I recover is done at the physical media level. This is done either with analog to digital converters or modern digital data separators which have better recovery characteristics than the originals. The main reason for wanting to do this is to preserve all of the original bit streams and error checking information. In the case of magentic tape, it is possible to recover data from very old tapes using modern magnetorestrictive head technology that would be impossible to recover using the original heads, since MR heads require MUCH less contact pressure and are much more sensitive than the originals. While it may be practical to maintain microcomputers for this purpose for newer media, the types of data I have been trying to recover (mainframes and older minis) is impractical, either because the machines no longer exist, cannot be kept running given the tradeoff of machine ontime vs the time needed to keep it running, or that the reliablity of the data from older controllers is worse than can be obtained from direct low-level data aquisition. There is also the problem of file transation and transfer even if you can get the bits read on the original system. The problem with using these techniques is it requires detailed knowledge of how the data was written and information on things like file formats. This is why there is a strong bias towards this sort of information on bitsavers (in addition to the fact that I've discovered this information is REALLY hard to find for pre-minicomputer systems). This is also information that is VERY useful to people trying to write simulators. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 16 16:38:51 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:38:51 -0400 Subject: 'goto' - the debate between 'human' vs 'machine' programming In-Reply-To: <4289103B.7020906@oldskool.org> References: <200505151546.j4FFkuLY092978@inferno.eagle.ca> <4289103B.7020906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <428912EB.nail14111K2LU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > both are "GOTOs" in functionality In real-world computing, there are even more obtuse examples. Things like interrupt service routines, which have no obvious way into them from a pure code standpoint (except where you set up and enable the interrupt.) Or exception handlers, which (depending on the architecture and the exception) may be entered with registers in undefined states partway through an instruction's execution. Structured programming is boring in comparison :-). Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 16:40:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <200505161931.j4GJV9OD085245@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > LOL ... Man some people are so dense ... The top two feedback comments on > Slashdot so far are "you barely talked about 96-2005" (when the HEADLINE > says it ends at 95) and "you should include the Hitchhikers Guide" (which I > did include). > > I wish people who read before replying... Guess being on that site is a > double-edged sword! Slashdot nerds are historically overzealous and attempt to find even the tiniest (and as you found out, usually inconsequential or outright invalid) openings to pick your work apart. As far as I'm concerned, Slashdot's feedback forums are vast wastelands of narcissistic, self-aggrandizing babble. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Mon May 16 16:49:57 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at May 16, 2005 05:18:24 PM Message-ID: <20050516214958.73EE073029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Dave Dunfield once stated: > > Given that the original example assumes n > 0 (the test is skipped on > first entry to the loop), you can accomplish this function with neither > an extra conditional, superfluous assignment, extra variables or use > of 'goto' > > void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) > { > int i; > for(i=0; ;) { > printf("%u", aryp[i]); > if(++i >= n) > break; > fputs(", ", stdout); } > putc('\n', stdout); > } Hmmm ... void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) { printf("%u",*aryp++); while(--n) { printf(",%u",*aryp++); } putchar('\n'); } -spc (avoids additional variables, no GOTOs, and one conditional ... ) From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 16:50:26 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:50:26 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428915A2.20501@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Slashdot nerds are historically overzealous and attempt to find even the > tiniest (and as you found out, usually inconsequential or outright > invalid) openings to pick your work apart. As far as I'm concerned, > Slashdot's feedback forums are vast wastelands of narcissistic, > self-aggrandizing babble. ...and always has been. That's why, when I read slashdot comments, I do so on level 5 and even then only from people who are marked "friend" or "friend of a friend" or "fan". I bypass 90% of the drivel that way. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From news at computercollector.com Mon May 16 16:56:37 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:56:37 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <428915A2.20501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> The encouragement is much appreciated! LOL, however sometimes in the sentence "Slashdot nerds are historically overzealous and attempt to find even the tiniest (and as you found out, usually inconsequential or outright invalid) openings" we need to change "Slashdot" to "ClassicCMP". ;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 5:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Woohoo! Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Slashdot nerds are historically overzealous and attempt to find even > the tiniest (and as you found out, usually inconsequential or outright > invalid) openings to pick your work apart. As far as I'm concerned, > Slashdot's feedback forums are vast wastelands of narcissistic, > self-aggrandizing babble. ...and always has been. That's why, when I read slashdot comments, I do so on level 5 and even then only from people who are marked "friend" or "friend of a friend" or "fan". I bypass 90% of the drivel that way. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 16:55:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > What is needed, and has been attempted and mostly failed by several different > people, is this: > > - A standard method of describing not only what is stored on a diskette, but > HOW and WHY (to make sense of all the gap/header/sync/etc. bits) > - A common way of getting that information off the disk, which will probably > require interfaces to PCs or MACs because the original hardware may not be able > to provide every single flux off the disk > - Well written "disk controller emulation" utility programs to translate the > archived stream of bits into useful data, the highest priority being the > ability to extract individual files http://www.futurekeep.org > Until some common standard is defined and widely accepted and applies > equally to every type of diskette-based magetic medium, I'll just keep > on doing what I'm doing that works for me, and I'll contribute my work > to the global standard if/when it exists. Just because there isn't a > standard doesn't mean I should hold off archiving. The FutureKeep project will solve all these issues. Now, if only someone can solve the issue of adding another couple hours to the day ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:03:23 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:03:23 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516214958.73EE073029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050516214958.73EE073029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Hmmm ... > > void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) > { > printf("%u",*aryp++); > while(--n) > { > printf(",%u",*aryp++); > } > putchar('\n'); > } > > -spc (avoids additional variables, no GOTOs, and one conditional ... ) > > <> (spc just hit in the forehead by an eraser). Straighten up and get serious. You used twice as much printf as everybody else. Have you ever seen the setup for a printf call in assembler? I wonder if even the compiler can save you from this shameless bit of excess. :-) -- John. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 17:00:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WAY OT NOW Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <4288F225.4050408@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > I'd do this, and didn't even know that jumping into the middle of the > FOR loop was legal. Even knowing it is legal, I prefer my way (of course): > > void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) > { > int i; > for (i=0; i { > if (i>0) > printf (", "); > printf ("%u", *aryp); > } > printf ("\n"); > } Um, if you're anal like me, you don't want to print a comma after the last value, so: ... printf ("%u", *aryp); if (i References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > It's been ages since I 'rode out' a close to the end in real-time. > Third-party sniping systems have essentially replaced 'real-time' > bidding on highly contested items, in my opinion. I place my high bid, > either with a proxy service or program, or directly with eBay, and walk > away. Bingo. Avoiding the emotional issues is the primary reason I always snipe auctions. A secondary reason, however, is because at one time (probably can still do this) it was possible to search what a particular user was bidding on. Some friends and acquaintences of mine were outbidding me on items they didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping eliminates this. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:06:46 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:06:46 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050516214958.73EE073029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: Doh! I take that back, you used half as much printf in the loop as I did. So yours is better! -- John. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 17:07:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:07:32 -0500 Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428919A4.7090701@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.futurekeep.org What I hinted at, but did not explicitly say, is that actually coming up with such a standard is such a herculean effort that I doubt I will see it happen in my lifetime :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 16 17:04:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:04:09 +0000 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1116281049.23808.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 14:33 -0700, John Hogerhuis wrote: > On 5/16/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Given that the original example assumes n > 0 (the test is skipped on > > first entry to the loop), you can accomplish this function with neither > > an extra conditional, superfluous assignment, extra variables or use > > of 'goto' > > > > void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) > > { > > int i; > > for(i=0; ;) { > > printf("%u", aryp[i]); > > if(++i >= n) > > break; > > fputs(", ", stdout); } > > putc('\n', stdout); > > } > > Now that's a right answer. ... the wrong answer being to dump out each array element followed by a comma, then output ^H as the final step in the function ;-) Real Programmers would presumably use putc exclusively in favour of the more computationally expensive printf... cheers J. From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 17:11:12 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:11:12 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Some friends and acquaintences of mine were outbidding me on items they > didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping > eliminates this. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions with an early (low) bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will avoid it or tell me they want it more than me. -- John. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 17:11:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:11:18 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516221117.RKCQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > Hmmm ... > > void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) > { > printf("%u",*aryp++); > while(--n) > { > printf(",%u",*aryp++); > } > putchar('\n'); > } But has two calls to printf, with different format strings. More than doubles the static string space. Plus two complete printf call frames (bigger code)... one being used only once. All in the name of keeping a "structured" image. I'm guessing this is NOT how you would code this algorithm if you were programming in assembly language... gotos and other such structures are not evil - lack of understanding of when such constructs are appropriate (and not appropriate) is the real problem. "Banning" the constructs just serves to emphasize that this is not obvious to some people. Hmmm... we seem to be sailing away from the topics again! Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 17:09:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > The encouragement is much appreciated! > > LOL, however sometimes in the sentence "Slashdot nerds are historically > overzealous and attempt to find even the tiniest (and as you found out, > usually inconsequential or outright invalid) openings" we need to change > "Slashdot" to "ClassicCMP". ;) True, but at least we're not dorks. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 17:34:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Some friends and acquaintences of mine were outbidding me on items they > didn't know were up for bid until they saw what I was bidding on! Sniping > eliminates this. Gee, some "friends". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 17:35:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: <428919A4.7090701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.futurekeep.org > > What I hinted at, but did not explicitly say, is that actually coming up > with such a standard is such a herculean effort that I doubt I will see > it happen in my lifetime :-) Ok, just you wait and see ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Mon May 16 17:51:15 2005 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:51:15 +0000 Subject: HP-IB Census Message-ID: Hi Steve, GPIB / HPIB FAQ sounds like a good idea .. >* Bus Analyzers - IE HP59401A If you're going to include HPIB bus analyzers in your FAQ it would be worth looking at the National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ card. This card can be configured as a bus analyser that captures all HPIB messages (control, data and status) onto a controller PC with the size of the log-file limited only by available disk space. I've found it to be a lot more useful than the more commonly available HP 59401A analyser. If you need any further info on this card for your FAQ then please feel free to drop me an e-mail. Cheers Peter From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 16 18:00:56 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:00:56 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGL008LVUL5N1Z1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: John Hogerhuis > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:25:13 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: >> >> Ok, the usual MMU only fairly fine grained. Does any apps make use of >> that kind of MMU and space? >> > >Not yet, this is a new thing, and there's no software to take >advantage of the full potential yet. Not surprized as even in the S100 Z80 world where MMU and banking has been around for a long time it was rarely used for anything but pseudodisk space. I've gone as far as do a memory allocation recovery systems for to get an approach to a virtual OS. Not all the way but close. In that case the MMU is being used for a scatter/gather execution space allocator. >> >Each block in the map can be marked read-only so that if you are >> >emulating ROM with RAM or flash you get a perfect emulation, i.e. any >> >writes against ROM don't get applied. >> >> Handy! >> > >Handy and required... some vintage ROMs do some funny stuff writing >against ROM for efficiency believe that it won't have any effect. But >writing against RAM has an effect, and against flash can lock up the >flash since it can trigger its state machine. ;) thats a bad thing! I know. :-P >> Now I understand what it is and the basic logic inside. Like many MMU >> based 8bitters the addition of large ram is usually to emulate disk. >> I'm curious to see if any actually do swaping or overlay so the app >> can access a larger space or larger data. The reason for that is >> most cases that is rare or not even done. >> > >Well the M100 uses a RAM based file system. Our MMU is a new thing, so >any use made of it beyond emulating multiple M100 fast-switch maps >will be by new software. In particular I'm planning a management Not surprized for reasons stated. >program that can set up maps and burn new ROMs to flash or set them up >in RAM. But the spec will be freely available so user programs can get >direct access to extended RAM. All you need to do is CLEAR enough >space to get a 1K window and a BASIC program can start PEEKing and >POKEing extended RAM without too much trouble. That's why we have such >a fine-grain MMU block size. I'm still getting used to the M100s applications and space usage. It's a bit foreign to a CP/M, OS/8, RT-11, VMS user like myself. I'e sone real time stuff and systems stuff for myself that used mapped ram and rom to get around the latency of disks (even IDE). I'll have to look more at all this. However, step one is to get the M100 I have up to 32k ram. Then I'll look at how secondary rom socket space is used. I'd like a configuration that also has ram at 0000h and maybe a OS in it. I've considered getting some larger F-Rams too. All in time. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 16 18:01:58 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:01:58 -0400 Subject: Disk archival References: Message-ID: <004001c55a6b$434d5830$985d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Disk archival > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > http://www.futurekeep.org > > > > What I hinted at, but did not explicitly say, is that actually coming up > > with such a standard is such a herculean effort that I doubt I will see > > it happen in my lifetime :-) > > Ok, just you wait and see ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Why can't a group just incorporate the images that are already made by machine specific groups? There is a huge scene for Atari, Commodore, Timex, Amiga, Tandy, etc that has already made images of just about every commercial and PD disk for their platform. Asking a group that already has everything dumped to use special tools to redump them for some other group is a waste of their time. I think it would be better just to document what each group does now, archive those images, and then create some software that can recreate any of the images back to disk as needed. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 18:05:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:05:15 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516230514.BLKO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Various messages compined into one - quotes are not all from the same person(s). >Straighten up and get serious. You used twice as much printf as >everybody else. Have you ever seen the setup for a printf call in >assembler? >I wonder if even the compiler can save you from this shameless bit of excess. Unlikely - as there are two different format strings. >... the wrong answer being to dump out each array element followed by a >comma, then output ^H as the final step in the function ;-) Works poorly on hardcopy devices :-) >Real Programmers would presumably use putc exclusively in favour of the >more computationally expensive printf... Naw, printf() is a simple and versatile tool, and since the code is only linked once it's usually worth it as it's handy "all over" - besides, printf() doesn't have to be huge - here is my CSTATS output for my integer- only printf format routine (which is a single function that does not call ANY other functions - all tests and conversions are internal): Characters: in file(s) : 2263 in comments : 733 whitespace : 620 significant : 910 Lines: in file(s) : 97 blank/comment: 23 significant : 74 Cism's: '{'s : 13 '}'s : 13 ';'s : 47 comments : 20 74 lines and 47 statements (including variable declarations) in 13 blocks. This is an integer-only printf() formatter (real programmers don't use FP) written in pure C which supports the following free form types: %c (character) %s (string) %d (signed decimal) %u (unsigned decimal) %x (hexidecimal) %o (octal) %b (binary) %% (single '%') And formatting of any of the above types in the form: %5x <= 5 character, right justify, space fill %05x <= 5 character, right justify, zero fill %-5x <= 5 character, left justify, space fill %-05x <= 5 character, left justify, zero fill (kinds useless :-) [and yes, other format widths besides 5 are supported!] - Codesize compiled from C for the 8086 (my Micro-C) is 688 bytes. - Code size of comparable routine hand crafted in assembly language for my 8051 compiler library is 437 bytes (although this adds a new %i for strings in internal memory). - Code size for the C-FLEA (a virtual processor I developed which is an optimized C target) is 335 bytes. Just because winbloat leads us to expect multi-megabyte executables and massive libraries - it duzn't has to be so! >> void print_ary (int *aryp, int n) >> { >> int i; >> for (i=0; i> { >> if (i>0) >> printf (", "); >> printf ("%u", *aryp); >> } >> printf ("\n"); >> } > >Um, if you're anal like me, you don't want to print a comma after the last >value, so: > >... > printf ("%u", *aryp); > if (i= n)); This is getting silly! Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 18:06:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, John Hogerhuis wrote: > On 5/16/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > Hmmm ... > > > > void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) > > { > > printf("%u",*aryp++); > > while(--n) > > { > > printf(",%u",*aryp++); > > } > > putchar('\n'); > > } > > > > -spc (avoids additional variables, no GOTOs, and one conditional ... ) > > > > > > > <> (spc just hit in the forehead by an eraser). > > Straighten up and get serious. You used twice as much printf as > everybody else. Have you ever seen the setup for a printf call in > assembler? > > I wonder if even the compiler can save you from this shameless bit of excess. I trump thee collectively: void print_arg(int *aryp, size_t n) { char *t="%u,"; int i=0; for (;(i==n-1 ? t="%u" : i Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Why can't a group just incorporate the images that are already made by > machine specific groups? There is a huge scene for Atari, Commodore, Timex, > Amiga, Tandy, etc that has already made images of just about every > commercial and PD disk for their platform. Asking a group that already has > everything dumped to use special tools to redump them for some other group > is a waste of their time. I think it would be better just to document what > each group does now, archive those images, and then create some software > that can recreate any of the images back to disk as needed. Because not all (if any) groups have dumped to images of any manner of archival standard. All we have today is a mish-mash of miscellaneous images not dumped in a manner that preserves as much information (metadata) of the original media as possible. This is the problem that FutureKeep aims to resolve. Existing images will be able to be converted to the FutureKeep standard, but they will lack essential metadata. Once FutureKeep exists, it is hoped that any new images made will be done in that universal standard. It is also hoped that volunteers will go back and re-image all possible software in the FutureKeep file format. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 18:24:29 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:24:29 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516232428.SJIS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I trump thee collectively: > >void print_arg(int *aryp, size_t n) >{ > > char *t="%u,"; > int i=0; > > for (;(i==n-1 ? t="%u" : i > putchar('\n'); > >} > >A little ugly (the compiler complains about the type mismatch in the unary >expression) but otherwise it works without caveats (that I know of ;) > >I suspect someone might bum it down further...no more precious time to >expend on this useless pursuit ;) I'm a little confused about the definition of "trump" when used in this case: - You have returned to an excess of local variables, and the extra assignment - although you have used a (more expensive) conditional to defer it until the last iteration. - You have returned to TWO conditionals, although you have creatively moved them both into the for statement. - In the last iteration of the loop you are stuffing the address value of the constant string "%u" into the for conditional (granted in any reasonable implementation this will be non-zero and will evaluate to TRUE, however it seems a bit odd and not completely necessary to the logic of the program). - You are reading only the first element of the array, although you are adding an increasing offset to it for each iteration of the loop. This really is getting silly. So... Seen any good old computers lately? How about them Altairs - ain't they something? When I was a gaffer, we had to carry our card decks uphill both ways to the card punch! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 18:24:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516230514.BLKO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Um, if you're anal like me, you don't want to print a comma after the last > >value, so: > > > >... > > printf ("%u", *aryp); > > if (i > Um, the original code won't print a comma after the last value. > > You could of course do something "clever" to make the > extra conditional harder to see like: > > for(i=0; i < n; ++i) > printf("%u%s", aryp[i], ","+(i >= n)); Um, you're right, but yours does ;) (Can you spot the error? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 16 18:31:23 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:31:23 +0000 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516230514.BLKO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050516230514.BLKO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1116286284.23808.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 19:05 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >... the wrong answer being to dump out each array element followed by a > >comma, then output ^H as the final step in the function ;-) > > Works poorly on hardcopy devices :-) That's what tippex is for :) > >Real Programmers would presumably use putc exclusively in favour of the > >more computationally expensive printf... > > ... > - Codesize compiled from C for the 8086 (my Micro-C) is 688 bytes. > - Code size of comparable routine hand crafted in assembly language > for my 8051 compiler library is 437 bytes (although this adds a > new %i for strings in internal memory). > - Code size for the C-FLEA (a virtual processor I developed which is > an optimized C target) is 335 bytes. I stand corrected - that's quite impressive. Sure, Windows is bloated, but I still would have guessed on a couple of kb or so of code. As you say, lack of floating-point isn't exactly the end of the world... > You could of course do something "clever" to make the > extra conditional harder to see like: > > for(i=0; i < n; ++i) > printf("%u%s", aryp[i], ","+(i >= n)); This is why I really don't like C much :-) (Although I do insist on using it a lot of late...) cheers J. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 16 17:59:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:59:16 -0400 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <200505161749.j4GHn3VV024054@mail.bcpl.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050515160702.015f4cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.0.6.0.20050515133120.027d4640@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050516185916.01975460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:49 PM 5/16/05 -0400, David wrote: >On 15 May 2005 at 16:07, Joe R. wrote: > >> The 64000s are big brutes! > >The OP mentioned that the items were from 1992. By then, the original >(big) 64000 development stations were out of production. They last appear >in the 1987 HP T&M catalog. > >They were supplanted by the HP 64000-UX systems -- essentially a card cage Actually they were replaced by the 64100s and 64110s. The 64000-UX must be something later, I'm not familar with them. FWIW, Joe >for the original 64000 cards, plus software that ran under HP-UX on HP 9000 >systems. These units were later replaced by the HP 64700-series of >emulators and analyzers; only these appear in the 1992 T&M. The 64700 >software ran on PCs and HP and Sun workstations. > >So the OP's stuff may be either for the 64000-UX or 64700. I don't think >that HP was still producing updates for the big 64000 stations that late. > > >> The only peaple that I recall that collect them are Frank McConnal and >> Dave somebody out in Texas. > > -- Dave (somebody in Maryland :-) Then you're Dave #2 because there is a Dave in Tx that collects them. Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 16 18:31:36 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:31:36 -0400 Subject: LCD woes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050516193136.0094f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:16 PM 5/13/05 -0700, you wrote: >I finally got around to replacing the batteries on my TRS-80 PC-1 and >noticed that the intervening years have not been kind to the LCD >screen. It appears that there is liquid crystal leaking out under the >polarizing screen, creating what looks like black smudges on the >display. > >I dug my less scratched up version out of storage and found the same >thing, only worse. I doubt these LCD panels are still in production. > Anyone have any ideas that might be able to alleviate the problem? > >Eric > I don't think there's anything you can do about them. I noticed that all the PC-1s that I saw were developing that problem and that was probably over ten years ago. Radio Shack Quality! Joe From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 18:37:19 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:37:19 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516233718.BWJJ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> for(i=0; i < n; ++i) >> printf("%u%s", aryp[i], ","+(i >= n)); > >Um, you're right, but yours does ;) > >(Can you spot the error? ;) Yup - should be ((i+1) >= n) I told you this was getting silly! Cheers, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:39:12 2005 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:39:12 +0200 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050515160702.015f4cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050515133120.027d4640@pop.xs4all.nl> <3.0.6.32.20050515160702.015f4cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 5/15/05, Joe R. wrote: > > The HP 64000 is a Logic Developement System. The name is a bit > misleading, it's actually a microcomputer developement system. The 64000s > are big brutes! The only peaple that I recall that collect them are Frank > McConnal and Dave somebody out in Texas. However somebody should grab > these > manuals and preserve them since docs are always harder to find than the > hardware. Some docs are already on Bitsavers : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/64000/ -- > Stephane > Paris, France. > From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 18:40:00 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:40:00 -0400 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516234000.BXCX5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> You could of course do something "clever" to make the >> extra conditional harder to see like: >> >> for(i=0; i < n; ++i) >> printf("%u%s", aryp[i], ","+(i >= n)); > >This is why I really don't like C much :-) (Although I do insist on >using it a lot of late...) I'm guessing your not a big APL fan? Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 18:41:06 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:41:06 -0400 Subject: LCD woes... Message-ID: <20050516234105.SQDD16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>I finally got around to replacing the batteries on my TRS-80 PC-1 and >>noticed that the intervening years have not been kind to the LCD >>screen. It appears that there is liquid crystal leaking out under the >>polarizing screen, creating what looks like black smudges on the >>display. > I don't think there's anything you can do about them. I noticed that all >the PC-1s that I saw were developing that problem and that was probably >over ten years ago. Radio Shack Quality! Both of my PC-1's have it - but they still work! -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 18:40:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WAY WAY WAY WAY OT Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516232428.SJIS16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >I trump thee collectively: > > > >void print_arg(int *aryp, size_t n) > >{ > > > > char *t="%u,"; > > int i=0; > > > > for (;(i==n-1 ? t="%u" : i > > > putchar('\n'); > > > >} > > > >A little ugly (the compiler complains about the type mismatch in the unary > >expression) but otherwise it works without caveats (that I know of ;) > > > >I suspect someone might bum it down further...no more precious time to > >expend on this useless pursuit ;) > > I'm a little confused about the definition of "trump" when used in > this case: > > - You have returned to an excess of local variables, and the > extra assignment - although you have used a (more expensive) > conditional to defer it until the last iteration. There's one extra local variable (char *t) which is a pointer: hardly expensive by any metric. If you prefer, move the i initializer inside the for loop construct. Same difference. > - You have returned to TWO conditionals, although you have > creatively moved them both into the for statement. The loop uses the same number of conditionals as any other example so far (including yours, which doesn't work ;) > - In the last iteration of the loop you are stuffing the address > value of the constant string "%u" into the for conditional > (granted in any reasonable implementation this will be non-zero > and will evaluate to TRUE, however it seems a bit odd and not > completely necessary to the logic of the program). Your analysis somewhat (misses the point|is non-sequitur). The unary construct is the entire reason this works. > - You are reading only the first element of the array, although > you are adding an increasing offset to it for each iteration of > the loop. Perhaps this is an issue of precedence and compiler implementation, but the way it works (at least under gcc) is as I suspected, which is that counter i gets incremented after first being added to aryp. So it in fact iterates the entire array from start to end. > This really is getting silly. Yes, but at least we're not talking about cars or guns. > So... Seen any good old computers lately? Thousands. > How about them Altairs - ain't they something? Over-rated. > When I was a gaffer, we had to carry our card decks > uphill both ways to the card punch! You had card punches? We had to cut holes into ours with exacto knives. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 18:44:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY OT Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516233718.BWJJ5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> for(i=0; i < n; ++i) > >> printf("%u%s", aryp[i], ","+(i >= n)); > > > >Um, you're right, but yours does ;) > > > >(Can you spot the error? ;) > > Yup - should be ((i+1) >= n) > > I told you this was getting silly! Nice solution though ;0) I defer trumpage to you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 16 18:52:12 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:52:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: WAY WAY WAY WAY OT Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050516235212.3389.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> When I was a gaffer, we had to carry our card decks >> uphill both ways to the card punch! > You had card punches? We had to cut holes into ours > with exacto knives. Exacto knives? We could only dream of having knives, we had to chew the holes in ours. Monty. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 18:03:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:03:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050515224047.016c7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 15, 5 10:40:47 pm Message-ID: > >> >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), > >> > >> That's like mine but it only has one HH drive. Any idea if these will > >> handle four floppy drives? The manual says that it could handle four > > > >The schematics in the back of my Owner's Manual only show DS0 and DS1 > >wired up, so I guess it only handles 2 floppies. > > I haven't looked at the schematics yet but I suspected as much. Strange... I always look at the schematics first, if they're available (then source listings, and finally any user-manaul type of info...). > > > > >> Winchester drives. IF you have the Winchester board. I don't :-( It > > > >Nor do I. But to tie in to a thread a few weeks back, I have a > >third-party board in mine. It's fixed on pillars stuck to the main board, > >and connects to the 2 50 pin bus headers. It contains a few TTL chips, > >and has a 20 pin header that's designed to link to a Pluto graphics unit > >(or at least that's what I think it's for). Alas I don't have any > >software to drive it. > > What's a Pluto graphics unit? The Sage only comes with512k of memory The Pluto was a reasonable hi-res (for the time) graphics display system with its own 8088 microprocessor. Jules Richarson found one a few weeks back iIRC. I hvve one somewhere, it came with a Sharp MZ80-B, not with the Sage, but I think it's the same unit. > (max). The Winchester adapter also contains up to 512k bytes of additional > RAM. Any ideas about how to built a RAM card that can be used to increase > the memory of the standard Sage? Well, you have the system bus on those 2 50 pin headers. It should be fairly easy to wire up some modern SRAM chips to those, with a bit of address decoding logic. > >> CPM-68k for it so I'm on the look out for those. > > > >I hate to mention this, but IIRC Don Maslin's archive contained CP/M 68k > >for the Sage :-( > > I wonder who finally ended up with his archive? Several people tried to > take it over. Oh for %deity's sake... There are 2 threads about this at the moment on classiccmp. Do you actually _read_ the list ? :-) > > > > >All (!) we have to do is find some way of transfering disk images to me > >in a format that I can actually make use of..... > > Snail Mail! I'll make copies as soon as I get it fired up. I need > backup copies anyway. Which means I'd better dig out my Sage again. I think I know where I put it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 17:53:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:53:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: LCD woes... In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at May 13, 5 08:16:25 pm Message-ID: > > I finally got around to replacing the batteries on my TRS-80 PC-1 and > noticed that the intervening years have not been kind to the LCD > screen. It appears that there is liquid crystal leaking out under the > polarizing screen, creating what looks like black smudges on the > display. The black smudges are almost certainly areas where there's no liquid crystal remaining. Remember that the liquid crystal is placed between _crossed_ polarisers, in the unenergised state the liquid crystal is designed to rotate the plane of polarisation of the light by pi/2. > > I dug my less scratched up version out of storage and found the same > thing, only worse. I doubt these LCD panels are still in production. > Anyone have any ideas that might be able to alleviate the problem? Alas I can't think of a cure other than a new LCD unit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 17:54:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:54:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050514180134.U781@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at May 14, 5 06:04:47 pm Message-ID: > Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? Hey, I've never claimed to be a programmer. A hardware hacker, maybe, but not a programmer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 17:57:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <428807D1.7010400@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at May 15, 5 10:39:13 pm Message-ID: > > So what do you call a person who accumulates collections? ;-) Or, indeed, a person who collects accumulators ? :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 18:29:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:29:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050515190836.02e65348@mail.netsync.net> from "Christian R. Fandt" at May 16, 5 02:00:15 pm Message-ID: > Tony, the HP250 CPU is said to be the same as the 9845* except for > different microcode. Reference this website if you can: > http://www.hp-eloquence.com/history/history.html YEs, but _which_ 9845 processor? An HP9845 has 2 processors (not counting the graphics accelerator that may be in the monitor). One handles I/O (the 'Peripheral Processor Unit'), the other runs user programs (the 'Language Processor Unit'). In most machines, these are those HP custom hybrid modules with a large die-cast heatsink on top, a bit like the processor in the 9825, but with different pinouts, etc. Soem machnies (and mine is one of them) have the high speed language processor option. This replaces the LPU board with its processor with a set of 3 boards linked by a little backplane on top. One of the boards plugs into the main backplane slot that takes the normal LPU board. The other 2 hang over the side of the cardcage. These boards contain (amongst otehr things): Interface PCB : Bus buffers, abritration logic, some processor registers Data path : ALU (4 off 2901), condition logic, microcode branch PLA, ALU decode PLA Control : Micorocode PROMs, sequnecer (2910), BCD adder and shifter, more registers I am pretty certain than the 2 processors are object-code compatible. But I am alos sure that schematics are totally different. I will take a look at the ose HP250 diagrams if I get a chance (no, I am not going to spend 5 hours downloading them here!) to see what that did. But i suspect the hardware will again be different. > > I feel this may give you something to work with as you reverse engineer the > 9845. You didn't say, and I assume it to be very much the case given the > lack of tech manuals for our own 9825 machines, that there was any tech FWIW, a reverse-engineered 9825/9831 schematic is on the HPCC schematics CD-ROM (along with similar diagrams for the 9100B, 9810, 9830, 9815, some late rmachines, and most of the handhelds) -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon May 16 19:13:50 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:13:50 -0400 Subject: WAY WAY WAY WAY OT Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! Message-ID: <20050517001349.CHOM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >There's one extra local variable (char *t) which is a pointer: hardly >expensive by any metric. If you prefer, move the i initializer inside the >for loop construct. Same difference. >The loop uses the same number of conditionals as any other example so far >(including yours, which doesn't work ;) I guess you missed my original solution - look back a few messages, it uses only one conditional, and only one local variable, has no superflous assignments, nor goto's. The "clever" one in my last message was an illustation, not my solution. >> - In the last iteration of the loop you are stuffing the address >> value of the constant string "%u" into the for conditional >> (granted in any reasonable implementation this will be non-zero >> and will evaluate to TRUE, however it seems a bit odd and not >> completely necessary to the logic of the program). > >Your analysis somewhat (misses the point|is non-sequitur). The unary >construct is the entire reason this works. It still stuffs an address into a conditional - it works, but it's not pretty, nowhere near the goal of "structured" (remember structured ... this is a song about structured) and not something I would ever consider using in production code. >> - You are reading only the first element of the array, although >> you are adding an increasing offset to it for each iteration of >> the loop. > >Perhaps this is an issue of precedence and compiler implementation, but >the way it works (at least under gcc) is as I suspected, which is that >counter i gets incremented after first being added to aryp. So it in fact >iterates the entire array from start to end. * is higher precedence than '+' (K&R page 49 - I know this from memory - scary). If your compiler does the '+' first, it's broken. >You had card punches? We had to cut holes into ours with exacto knives. Actually, when I last visited the Your university museum, the Curator showed me some "manual" card punches - little steel blocks with holes and a pin punch! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 19:18:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free racks in Livermore, you pick up Message-ID: I have two very nice racks available for immediate hauling. I can only keep them for about a week to ten days until I must take them to the scrapyard. One is a DEC SF-200, in nice shape, both doors, with a 230V line power converter thingy (sorry, forgot the proper name at the moment). The other is a nice 7' tall DELL rack. It's very glamourous looking (all black, nice shiny DELL emblem on the front) however it's missing it's sides :( Otherwise, a very nice, solid, durable rack, though not quite deep enough for DEC equipment. Both of these are at my office in Livermore, California, sitting outside exposed for a current lack of space indoors. They've been rained on several times, but both are in fine shape, cleanable, no rust, etc. It's still raining over in my neck of the woods (it shouldn't be but it is) and there's more forecast in the coming days. However, it is also hot, and the rain spells are short, so they dry out quickly. Bottom line, that's not the limiting factor here, but my patience to leave them outside with the rest of the crap that needs hauling to the scrapyard is. Preference to local pickups. Will ship, but you'd better be prepared to handle ALL shipping details and pay me for my time to put it on a pallet and wrap it in cardboard (cardboard and pallet are free, my time is not, and I'm not cheap). Off-list enquiries please (on-list will be expunged with prejudice). ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 16 19:39:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WAY WAY WAY WAY OT Re: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050517001349.CHOM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >There's one extra local variable (char *t) which is a pointer: hardly > >expensive by any metric. If you prefer, move the i initializer inside the > >for loop construct. Same difference. > > >The loop uses the same number of conditionals as any other example so far > >(including yours, which doesn't work ;) > > I guess you missed my original solution - look back a few messages, > it uses only one conditional, and only one local variable, has no > superflous assignments, nor goto's. Saw it after I posted my "masterpiece". > The "clever" one in my last message was an illustation, not my > solution. Still clever ;) > >Your analysis somewhat (misses the point|is non-sequitur). The unary > >construct is the entire reason this works. > > It still stuffs an address into a conditional - it works, but it's > not pretty, nowhere near the goal of "structured" (remember structured > ... this is a song about structured) and not something I would ever > consider using in production code. At least I wasn't jumping into a for loop with a goto ;) > >Perhaps this is an issue of precedence and compiler implementation, but > >the way it works (at least under gcc) is as I suspected, which is that > >counter i gets incremented after first being added to aryp. So it in fact > >iterates the entire array from start to end. > > * is higher precedence than '+' (K&R page 49 - I know this from memory - > scary). If your compiler does the '+' first, it's broken. You know, you're right. gcc version 2.95.3. But it worked. I just enclosed the expression in proper parentheses and it of course works. Don't know why I wasn't before getting output: 1,3,5,7,9 > >You had card punches? We had to cut holes into ours with exacto knives. > > Actually, when I last visited the Your university museum, the Curator > showed me some "manual" card punches - little steel blocks with holes > and a pin punch! I've got something similar made by IBM. It's a little plastic tray with a stylus punch. You put the card in the tray and then punch out the holes you want. Fun! (And conveniently back on-topic...) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 16 19:25:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:25:10 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050515224047.016c7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050516202510.00967820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:03 AM 5/17/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> >I haev a Sage II (the later model with half-height 80 cylinder drives), >> >> >> >> That's like mine but it only has one HH drive. Any idea if these will >> >> handle four floppy drives? The manual says that it could handle four >> > >> >The schematics in the back of my Owner's Manual only show DS0 and DS1 >> >wired up, so I guess it only handles 2 floppies. >> >> I haven't looked at the schematics yet but I suspected as much. > >Strange... I always look at the schematics first, if they're available >(then source listings, and finally any user-manaul type of info...). To each his own! I haven't had time to read ANY of the manuals yet. I've only looked at the covers. > > >> >> > >> >> Winchester drives. IF you have the Winchester board. I don't :-( It >> > >> >Nor do I. But to tie in to a thread a few weeks back, I have a >> >third-party board in mine. It's fixed on pillars stuck to the main board, >> >and connects to the 2 50 pin bus headers. It contains a few TTL chips, >> >and has a 20 pin header that's designed to link to a Pluto graphics unit >> >(or at least that's what I think it's for). Alas I don't have any >> >software to drive it. >> >> What's a Pluto graphics unit? The Sage only comes with512k of memory > >The Pluto was a reasonable hi-res (for the time) graphics display system >with its own 8088 microprocessor. Jules Richarson found one a few weeks >back iIRC. I hvve one somewhere, it came with a Sharp MZ80-B, not with >the Sage, but I think it's the same unit. > >> (max). The Winchester adapter also contains up to 512k bytes of additional >> RAM. Any ideas about how to built a RAM card that can be used to increase >> the memory of the standard Sage? > >Well, you have the system bus on those 2 50 pin headers. It should be >fairly easy to wire up some modern SRAM chips to those, with a bit of >address decoding logic. > >> >> CPM-68k for it so I'm on the look out for those. >> > >> >I hate to mention this, but IIRC Don Maslin's archive contained CP/M 68k >> >for the Sage :-( >> >> I wonder who finally ended up with his archive? Several people tried to >> take it over. > >Oh for %deity's sake... There are 2 threads about this at the moment on >classiccmp. Do you actually _read_ the list ? :-) I can't read the future and that tread was started AFTER I posted the question. Joe > >> >> > >> >All (!) we have to do is find some way of transfering disk images to me >> >in a format that I can actually make use of..... >> >> Snail Mail! I'll make copies as soon as I get it fired up. I need >> backup copies anyway. > >Which means I'd better dig out my Sage again. I think I know where I put it. > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 16 19:45:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:45:28 -0400 Subject: HP-IB Census In-Reply-To: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050516204528.00798a40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'd like to see your method of formatting the HP-IB using the HP-IB Analyzer posted. Also information about which drives use which protocalls. (I have most of it but few other people do.) You might also be interested in posting results from people that are using HP drives that aren't supposed to work on their system. For example, I'm using a HP 7958 on my IPC. What brought this up is that today I got a call from someone that's desperate to buy a replacement HP 9133L. I asked if they could use a HP 9134L (same device but without the floppy drive) or something like a HP 7958 and they hadn't even considered those possiblities. I don't know if you saw it but several weeks ago there was a discussion about which hard drives could be partitioned into four volumes that appear to be four floppy drives for use by the HP-85 and other low-end machines that don't support hard drives. A FEW drives come configured that way and SOME similar models can be altered to operate that way by changing internal DIP switches. But it appears to depend on which circuit board is in the drive. Today I dug out a bunch of my hard drives and found 8 or 10 V and VX drives, both old and new style, some are configured into four volumes and some aren't. As soon as I have time I'm going to try them all out using an HP-85 and I'm going to open them all up and record the circuit board type, switch settings and drive type. I'll also try reconfiguring them from one volume to four and vice versa. I'll post the results once I get finished. You can link to my site or post the results on your site. For a LONG time I've been planning on putting up some webpages with pictures and descriptions of the various HP-IB drives but I've never gotten around to it. Joe At 12:18 PM 4/29/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hey guys, > >I am compiling some information for a HP-IB KnowledgeBase article / FAQ >and need some input. In order to focus my efforts and get the maximum >value from the KB, I need to know what specific information should be >included in the KB/FAQ. Some of the topics I am considering are: > >* Introduction / Tutorial - Basic overview of the protocol >* Protocols - HP-IB, GPIB, SICL, IEEE-488, etc... >* Characteristics - Electrical and physical characteristics >* Instruments - Talking to instruments >* Bus Analyzers - IE HP59401A >* CS-80 disks - The CS-80 / SS-80 protocols >* Programming - Linux, HP-UX, C, assembler, other > >So... I'd like to hear from anyone that is interested in HP-IB as to >what they would like to see in the KB. Please reply to the cctech list >or directly to me at steerex[at]mindspring[dot]com. > >See ya, >SteveRob > From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 19:58:44 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:58:44 -0700 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGL008LVUL5N1Z1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGL008LVUL5N1Z1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: > I'll have to look more at all this. However, step one is to > get the M100 I have up to 32k ram. Then I'll look at how secondary > rom socket space is used. I'd like a configuration that also has > ram at 0000h and maybe a OS in it. I've considered getting That has been done... I believe what you do is put a RAM in the Option ROM socket and bring out the necessary signals (/WE I think). Also the NEC 8201A and NEC 8300 are able to switch to all RAM mode with a short program. There was at some point in time a device called a PIC Disk that allowed you to run CP/M on the Model 100. It connected to the bus expansion port underneath the M100. Unfortunately we haven't been able to find anyone with a real live one and I failed to track down the creator. -- John. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 16 20:11:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:11:04 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: References: <20050514180134.U781@localhost> Message-ID: <20050516201104.5f1ce73d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:54:34 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? > > Hey, I've never claimed to be a programmer. A hardware hacker, maybe, > but not a programmer... > > -tony Steve Ciarcia used to say his favorite 'programming language' was solder. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon May 16 20:17:07 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:17:07 EDT Subject: homes needed for SGI Indigo2 R4k/250 Solid Message-ID: <202.1ba39d3.2fbaa013@aol.com> I have several Silicon Graphics Indigo2 IMPACT workstations (free) with the following specs R4400/250SC (2 MB cache) 64-128 MB RAM (I think) Solid IMPACT graphics (one is dual-head with Extreme) No disks, but an OS can be made available. Also have an Indy R5000SC/150 XL-8 (Newport) graphics at least 32 MB RAM Sony PS. same as above re. disks Good Dallas units in them when I checked. Forward to anyone who would be interested In the Seattle area, but I can be persuaded to ship I also have a Imperial Hemibuttload of keyboards for them. -Scott Quinn From cctalk at randy482.com Mon May 16 20:22:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:22:25 -0500 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! References: <20050514180134.U781@localhost> <20050516201104.5f1ce73d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004601c55a7e$e59e1990$663ed7d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:11 PM > On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:54:34 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? >> >> Hey, I've never claimed to be a programmer. A hardware hacker, maybe, >> but not a programmer... >> >> -tony > > Steve Ciarcia used to say his favorite 'programming language' was > solder. On another list one person refused to call it programming when I said I programmed with solder (diode matrix). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dancohoe at oxford.net Mon May 16 20:31:16 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:31:16 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention meeting place In-Reply-To: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> I know a few people here will be attending Dayton this year and it seems like a reasonable idea to try to meet other list members if we're all in the same area. I need to meet with some people to exchange stuff so we're assembling at the BBQ restaurant just east of the Hara Arena gates on the south side of the road.(first place east of the car dealership unless they've built something more since last year.) I think it's called Porky's. It's also a pretty good place to park for the day because there's at least a little bit of supervision and its convenient for dragging treasures back to your vehicle. We're aiming for 5:30-6:00 on Friday night and I suppose it would work Saturday night as well. Of course there may be better places so I'm open to other suggestions too. Dan From spc at conman.org Mon May 16 20:38:40 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516221117.RKCQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at May 16, 2005 06:11:18 PM Message-ID: <20050517013842.4B41C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Dave Dunfield once stated: > > > Hmmm ... > > > > void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) > > { > > printf("%u",*aryp++); > > while(--n) > > { > > printf(",%u",*aryp++); > > } > > putchar('\n'); > > } > > But has two calls to printf, with different format > strings. More than doubles the static string space. > Plus two complete printf call frames (bigger code)... > one being used only once. Well ... one could do: void print_arg(int *aryp,size_t n) { static const char text[] = ",%u"; printf(text+1,*aryp++); while(--n) { printf(text,*aryp++); } putchar('\n'); } Which I stuffed through GCC 2.7.2.3 (admittedly not a recent version of GCC) using the following command line: % gcc -S -O2 -fomit-frame-pointer t.c And got the following (cleaned up): .section rodata text .text ",%u" .section code print_arg push esi push ebx mov esi,[esp + 12] mov ebx,[esp + 16] push dword ptr [esi] add esi,4 push offset text + 1 jmps .L11 .L9 push dword ptr [esi] add esi,4 push offset text .L11 call printf add esp,8 dec ebx jne .L9 push dword $_IO_stdout push dword 10 call _IO_putc add esp,8 pop ebx pop esi ret Surprised me! A single call to printf(). Not bad---then again, GCC had been in development for quite a long time. And the printf() stack frame is no different from any other C stack frame (in declaration yes, but not in how it works). > gotos and other such structures are not evil - lack > of understanding of when such constructs are > appropriate (and not appropriate) is the real > problem. "Banning" the constructs just serves to > emphasize that this is not obvious to some people. > > Hmmm... we seem to be sailing away from the topics > again! Oh dear, we are, aren't we? -spc (And the assembly output has one unconditional GOTO and one conditional GOTO ... but who's counting?) From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 16 20:57:34 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:57:34 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! Message-ID: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> Hi folks, I'm looking for ideas for a few small demo programs I want to write for my Honeywell H316 minicomputer. I have written a Mandelbrot demo program which plots on the ASR or line printer - that's already very nice. Bu now I want to do more ;-) My tools are: Assembler and FORTRAN IV compiler. Usable peripherals: Paper tape reader/punch, teletype, line printer, serial port Any interesting suggestions? Best wishes, Philipp :-) http://h316.hachti.de From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 16 21:07:31 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:07:31 -0500 Subject: HP-IB Census In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428951E3.3030801@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > >>(4) I recently wanted to capture the contents of a ROM that was soldered >>into a board. I didn't want to unsolder it, so I used by HP 1631D logic >>analyzer to monitor all the pins while the computer was driving it with >>a test program that made sure every address was getting hit. I used my >>hp87 to drive the logic analyzer via HPIB and repeatedly sampled the >>pins, analyzed what was captured and repeated until I had seen all >>addresses. Finally I dumped the final ROM image to my PC via the serial >>adapter. It took me about four hours to figure out how to program >>everything, having never done it before. it would have been very useful >>for me to have seen other such code before I tried mine. I'd be happy >>to give you my program in case somebody else finds such a thing useful. > > > Wow, cool technique! Would definitely like to see this in the KB. OK, the details. The machine is the compucolor II. There are two 2708-equivalent ROMs to hold character generator data (they are mask programmed ROMs, not actual 2708s). Because compucolors are so scarce, I didn't want to risk damaging anything by taking the ROMs out and putting them back in, even if it is a relatively simple job. I wrote a program on the compucolor to fill the display RAM with all the characters. One ROM is just the bitmapped graphics mode, yielding the 256 possible combitions of fat pixels in a 2x4 pixel grid. There was no need to dump that. Recreating the program on the compucolor, it was something like this: 10 B=4096*6:REM BASE ADDRESS OF DISPLAY RAM 20 FOR I=1 TO 16 30 FOR C=0 TO 127 40 POKE B,C:REM ASCII CHARACTER VALUE 50 POKE B+1,7:REM WHITE CHAR ON BLACK BACKGROUND 60 B=B+2 70 NEXT C,I 80 GOTO 80 The compucolor display is a 64x32 character cell grid with two bytes per character. The even byte is the ascii value; the odd byte is the attribute byte including fg/bg colors, blink, and plot mode. The MSB of the ascii value tells the logic to line double the character rows, showing the top half if in an even row and the bottom half in an odd row such that double heights characters can be intermixed with single height charactes. None of that matters to the character ROM, so the above code just draws the 128 unique character values. There are eight rows per character cell, so a 1KB ROM is enough to hold the information. The 1631 is set up to monitor the 10 address lines, the 8 data lines, and a clock signal elsewhere in the logic that fires when the ROM output is being sampled. Fortunately, you can set up all the logic analyzer stuff manually before entering HP-IB controlled mode. My original fear was that I was going to have to set everything up via the HP-IB interface. Make sure the 1631 is in HP-IB slave mode. In my case I made it address 02, so that from the HP-87 it appears as device 702 (which will be evident in the code below). I had to hook up a serial port adapter to the hp87 to get the data to my PC. The initial part of the program below sets up the right bits & rates to allow that to happen. The serial port is device address 10. It would have been possible to program the logic analyzer to look for a specific address and then capture it, but it was easier for me to be statistical. When I tell the logic analyzer to RUN, it could start sampling at just about any phase in the process. The depth of the trace memory is only 1024 samples, and not all clocks have valid data, so a single run will never catch all 1024 ROM adddresses. Instead my program keeps track of which addresses have been capture already and just keeps sampling until all values have been seen. Now the hp-87 code. To prove that I'm not an aesthete, note the liberal use of GOTO below. :-) 10 DIM ROM(1024) 20 DIM DONE(1024) 30 FOR I=0 TO 1023 @ DONE(I)=0 @ NEXT I 40 LEFT=1024 50 ! 60 ! 70 ! set up the serial port 80 STATUS 10,0 ; S@ IF S=2 THEN 100 90 DISP "Device 10 isn't a serial port" @ STOP 100 CONTROL 10,1 ; 0 ! no interrupts 110 CONTROL 10,3 ; 15 ! 9600 bps 120 CONTROL 10,4 ; 3 ! no parity, 8b 130 CONTROL 10,5 ; 48@ REM hw flow control 140 ! 150 ! 160 CAPTURE: 170 OUTPUT 702 ;"LM" ! LIST menu 180 OUTPUT 702 ;"RN" ! RUN 190 WAIT 1000 ! sleep one second 200 OUTPUT 702 ;"SB2" ! status byte 210 ENTER 702 USING "#,B" ; ST 220 IF BIT (ST,1)=1 THEN 240 230 DISP "Waiting on capture" @ GOTO 190 240 OUTPUT 702 ;"TS" ! dump trace state 250 ENTER 702 USING "#,2A,W,7X,1X,B" ; C$,BYTES,FMT 260 IF C$="RS" THEN 280 270 DISP "Response RS expected" @ STOP 280 IF FMT=0 THEN 300 290 DISP "Format 0 expected" @ STOP 300 ENTER 702 USING "#,X,W,2X" ; SAMPLES 310 DISP "SAMPLES:";SAMPLES 320 FOR I=1 TO SAMPLES 330 ENTER 702 USING "#,B,B,B,B,2X" ; B0,B1,B2,B3 335 GOSUB 500 340 NEXT I 350 ENTER 702 USING "#,X,2X" ! skip revision code and CRC 370 IF LEFT>0 THEN CAPTURE 380 ! 390 ! 400 ! dump results to the serial port 410 FOR I=0 TO 1023 420 H$=DTH$ (ROM(I)) 425 FOR J=1 TO 8 @ IF BIT (ROM(I),8-J) THEN I$[J]="#" ELSE I$[J]="." 426 NEXT J 430 OUTPUT 10 USING "4X,2A,4X,4D,4X,6A" ; H$[3,4],I,I$ 440 NEXT I 450 GOTO 1000 460 ! 470 ! 500 ! pick apart the data 520 POD4=BINAND (B0,7)*64+B1 DIV 4 530 POD3=BINAND (B1,3)*128+B2 DIV 2 540 POD2=BINAND (B2,1)*256+B3 550 DAT=BINAND (POD4,255) 560 ADDR=BINAND (POD2,3)*256+POD3 DIV 16*8+BINAND (POD3,7) 570 IF DONE(ADDR) THEN 600 580 DONE(ADDR)=1 @ ROM(ADDR)=DAT @ LEFT=LEFT-1 590 DISP "ADDR ";ADDR;"=";DAT;", LEFT=";LEFT 600 RETURN 1000 END From Tim at rikers.org Mon May 16 21:18:47 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:18:47 -0500 Subject: homes needed for SGI Indigo2 R4k/250 Solid In-Reply-To: <202.1ba39d3.2fbaa013@aol.com> References: <202.1ba39d3.2fbaa013@aol.com> Message-ID: <42895487.3080903@Rikers.org> I've got any indy, but don't have the original "granite" mouse for it. I do have a working mouse, (logitech) just interested in an original if I come across one. Got extras of those? -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at rikers.org Mon May 16 21:20:16 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:20:16 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I'm looking for ideas for a few small demo programs I want to write for > my Honeywell H316 minicomputer. That should be a recipe database, no? ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 21:27:58 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:27:58 -0700 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050517013842.4B41C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050516221117.RKCQ16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050517013842.4B41C73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: Wow. GCC is scary smart. The backend of GCC is written in a LIsp variant, I've seen some cases on the QEMU mailing list where GCC will crash (they push the compiler really hard) and barf up Lisp. -- John. From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 16 21:31:25 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:31:25 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> > That should be a recipe database, no? ;-) I'm not sure.... My machine lacks the cutting-board - it's rack-mounted. Did the kitchen computer really store entire recipes? My machine has 16k word of core and no magnetic disc or similar. That's not enough for a sophisticated recipe-storage and automated meal-preparation system :-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon May 16 21:33:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:33:41 -0400 Subject: Update and Pictures: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI Silent 700/Alpha Micro Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050516223341.00a32720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I finally had a chance to look at some of the stuff today. I was wrong about the i8008 comnputers. They each have SIXTEEN 1101 RAMs on them and eight 1702 EPROMs. One of the machines has some non-Intel brand 1101 memories that are dated 7114!!!! (See the yellow arrow at ). I haven't had a chance to look them up yet but those two white ceramic parts are marked uA3656 or something like that. Anyway the red arrow is pointing to the i8008 CPU. The yellow arrow is pointing to the column with the 1101 RAMs and the blue arrow is pointing to the column of 1702 EPROMs. More pictures of this machine at and pitures of the second machine at . The circuit board appears to be the same in both machines despite the very different cases. I didn't get a chance to get pictures of the TI Silent 700 yet but I did open it up and check it out. It's a model 733KSR and IT'S SWEET! It's mounted in the transit case with spring loaded clips and it's in excellant condition and still has the interface cable attached. It also works perfectly :-) According to the labels on the case, it is a part of the same system(s) as the i8008 computers. The Visual terminal also works perfectly :-) I checked the HP 9845B and it's absolutely dead. The fan doesn't even run. However the fault should be easy enough to locate. It's odd though, their is no sticker listing the options and it has a hand written serial number on the SN label. I didn't get to the Sage or the other stuff yet. I HOPE to do that tomorrow. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Mon May 16 21:37:32 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:37:32 -0400 Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050515190836.02e65348@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050516215612.02cfcfd8@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 19:29 16-05-05, Tony Duell said something like: > > Tony, the HP250 CPU is said to be the same as the 9845* except for > > different microcode. Reference this website if you can: > > http://www.hp-eloquence.com/history/history.html > >YEs, but _which_ 9845 processor? I know little about the 9845 hardware at present. I wish I had my own 9845 but haven't found an intact one yet. >An HP9845 has 2 processors (not counting the graphics accelerator that >may be in the monitor). One handles I/O (the 'Peripheral Processor >Unit'), the other runs user programs (the 'Language Processor Unit'). In >most machines, these are those HP custom hybrid modules with a large >die-cast heatsink on top, a bit like the processor in the 9825, but with >different pinouts, etc. > >Soem machnies (and mine is one of them) have the high speed language >processor option. This replaces the LPU board with its processor with a >set of 3 boards linked by a little backplane on top. One of the boards >plugs into the main backplane slot that takes the normal LPU board. The >other 2 hang over the side of the cardcage. These boards contain (amongst >otehr things): > >Interface PCB : Bus buffers, abritration logic, some processor registers > >Data path : ALU (4 off 2901), condition logic, microcode branch PLA, ALU >decode PLA > >Control : Micorocode PROMs, sequnecer (2910), BCD adder and shifter, more >registers Based on that description I would bet that whomever stated the 250 CPU was the same, except for ucode, had intended the comparison to be to the LPU which is implied above to be equivalent to the "main" processor (vs the I/O processor which has less responsibility for calculations, logic processing, program control, etc.). >I am pretty certain than the 2 processors are object-code compatible. But >I am alos sure that schematics are totally different. I will take a look >at the ose HP250 diagrams if I get a chance (no, I am not going to spend >5 hours downloading them here!) to see what that did. But i suspect the >hardware will again be different. I always wanted to compare the two machines (9845 and HP250) once I discovered some years ago that the 250 CPU was (alleged to be) the same as the 9845 CPU. You will have a pinout of the 250 CPU in those drawings to determine if one of the '45 CPUs essentially match. I think if you find nearly all pins match to the 250 processor on one of the '45 processors, based on functions extrapolated from interconnecting circuit board traces between the '45 PPU, LPU, and adjacent circuitry, then you have your culprit. If not many match, although the 250 CPU was *said* to be the same except for ucode (implying sameness hardware-wise), HP had therefore evidently wire bonded the three differently to accommodate circuit pinout and/or function requirements. Device seems big enough to have separate die holding ucode bonded to the substrate next to the CPU die itself under that cover. Substrate could have different artwork to accommodate different pin location requirements for different uses (PPU, LPU, 250). If only contact could be made with an HP chip fab engineer or tech on these parts to understand this for sure. > > > > I feel this may give you something to work with as you reverse engineer > the I stand by my statement :-) Just a little enlightenment sooner is better than having to travel through darkness longer :-) >FWIW, a reverse-engineered 9825/9831 schematic is on the HPCC schematics >CD-ROM (along with similar diagrams for the 9100B, 9810, 9830, 9815, some >late rmachines, and most of the handhelds) Hmm, great (re: 9825 schema)! I will track down that CDROM again and buy it. I have a link stored somewhere. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From Tim at rikers.org Mon May 16 22:24:46 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:24:46 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Did the kitchen computer really store entire recipes? > > My machine has 16k word of core and no magnetic disc or similar. That's > not enough for a sophisticated recipe-storage and automated > meal-preparation system :-) >From what I can tell the point was to store the ingredients and then recipes would be on some other media. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=927 claims that the "other media" was a printed recipe book. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 23:20:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:20:56 -0500 Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This is the problem that FutureKeep aims to resolve. Existing images will > be able to be converted to the FutureKeep standard, but they will lack > essential metadata. Once FutureKeep exists, it is hoped that any new > images made will be done in that universal standard. It is also hoped > that volunteers will go back and re-image all possible software in the > FutureKeep file format. No offense to anyone who may be part of the project, but that's a pipe dream. I think a better goal is to create conversion utilities that perform cross-conversion to/from FutureKeep format, as that is much more realistic. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 23:22:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:22:48 -0500 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42897198.9080107@oldskool.org> John Hogerhuis wrote: > That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions with an early (low) > bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will > avoid it or tell me they want it more than me. Sure... I know a lot of my software collecting friends are obsessively competitive, so I recognize it and take it with a grain of salt. I'd rather be friends with them than get pissed over an auction I didn't win. In any case, it's moot; I snipe too, and now we're all on the same playing field. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhoger at gmail.com Mon May 16 23:23:05 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:23:05 -0700 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> Message-ID: Generate some digits of pi... or generate permutations in minimal change (gray code) order is fun. Good question though... "hello world" gives you no feel for the machine whatsoever. Need to make the computer compute... -- John. From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 16 23:23:46 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:23:46 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <428971D2.4000403@hachti.de> >>From what I can tell the point was to store the ingredients and then > recipes would be on some other media. Oh oh.... a 100% useless construction. > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=927 > claims that the "other media" was a printed recipe book. ;-) Perhaps. But don't believe that website.... the H316 does not have a clock frequency of 2.5 Mhz - it lacks a central clock :-) There is a cycle frequency of 625khz, that's all. My question is still up: What to program next? Btw, I've just tried out an odd-looking modem with a Bull-label on it. But it behaves strangely. It answers the phone with a strange tone. On the local side it has some built-in intelligency which tells me "INV" and nothing else when I try to enter something..... From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 16 23:26:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:26:21 -0500 Subject: Don's archive In-Reply-To: <200505161723.KAA21071@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505161723.KAA21071@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050516232621.52d8020e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 16 May 2005 10:23:58 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "jim stephens" > > > ---snip--- > > > >Without any information about the specifics of Don's situation, let > >me say that my wife and heirs know what my pile is, and who to call > >when and if I predecease her. If you do not or cannot take this > >step, your pile will face uncertain or sad prospects when you go. > > > > Hi > I think part of the problem is that it is hard to explain > to another family member what it is that we do. I've tried > to explain to my sister inlaw once but soon gave up. It > was like trying to explain things in a foriegn language that > she didn't know. My guess is that Don may have tried to > relate to his wife what it was he was doing but for something > like this, there wasn't enough common ground to communicate. > Even for a husband and wife, there are things that never > get fully communicated. Each eventually learns to just not > push the issue if it doesn't need immediate action. The > phase " Yes, Dear " comes to mind. > Even if he did explain it to her, she may never have > understood what it was he was doing and how important it > was to him. Without the common ground to discuss such things, > it just doesn't work. > Putting things in a will is just about the best way to > try to deal with such things. Not only that one wishes > things properly handled but it is best to find a trusted > friend that you can put their name in the will so that > the family, through greed or ignorence, can't block your > wishes. > Dwight > You've come close to expressing some of the thoughts that I have had about this. Don's spouse may have had little interest at all in what he was doing with computer things. To her, the whole archive Don was building up may be seen as a competitor, something that took him away from her. In that context, now that he's gone, it's possible she wants nothing to do with the 'bad memories' and/or alienation she felt the computer stuff introduced into her life. I know my wife understands little or nothing about the 'old computer stuff' that I have, and I know she resents the time I spend in my 'computer room' away from her. Part of understanding why all we can do is wait and hope this person will come around is to try to understand and relate to her. Don isn't coming back, and pieces of what he left behind for his family to deal with may bring back 'bad' memories. Which is why we need to wait without bothering her. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 16 23:27:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:27:27 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <428972AF.7090502@oldskool.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I have written a Mandelbrot demo program which plots on the ASR or line > printer - that's already very nice. Bu now I want to do more ;-) What kind of display does it have? Is it bitmapped and/or are the individual pixel elements individually addressable? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 16 23:28:56 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:28:56 -0500 Subject: Moore's Law/Byte magazine In-Reply-To: <0IGL005GFFNCQOX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGL005GFFNCQOX0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050516232856.550174eb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 16 May 2005 13:38:12 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: Moore's Law/Byte magazine > > From: Patrick Finnegan > > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:14:54 -0500 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > >I've found my copies of Jan - Mar 1988 that have the article. I > >could potentially let someone "borrow" a copy of the article. > > > > I'd like to see a copy of that article myself. > > Allison > And I need it, if I'm going to make sense of this here BCC180. Although it's *starting* to look like I should just shut up and ship off $25 to Micromint. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon May 16 23:33:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:33:54 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > > The encouragement is much appreciated! > > > > LOL, however sometimes in the sentence "Slashdot nerds are > > historically overzealous and attempt to find even the tiniest (and > > as you found out, usually inconsequential or outright invalid) > > openings" we need to change"Slashdot" to "ClassicCMP". ;) > > True, but at least we're not dorks. > > :) > I dunno about you, but for the last six months I've been wearing the plainest black plastic hornrim glasses they sell at WalMart. I'm talking $16 black plastic rims. No, they haven't broken yet so the black tape isn't out yet. And I've been cutting my own hair with a buzz clipper for the last four years. So speak for yourself, non-dork. (I'm considering a new look, since I've been getting weary of the funny looks from 10 year old boys at McDonalds these days. Karma's still up at Slashdot, tho.) From KParker at workcover.com Mon May 16 23:36:30 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:06:30 +0930 Subject: Request to meet fellow collectors Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BF23@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Later this year (depart 8 Nov 2005) my wife and I will be doing an around the world trip ex South Australia (we'll be away 71 nights). Whilst travelling I'd be interested in catching up with any interested fellow collectors, particularly collectors of TRS80 and genuine IBM stuff (but I'm not going to discriminate :-) Our major stops will be Auckland NZ, Recife (its on the east coast of Brazil), Miami, Memphis, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Ohio (little place called Lewisburg which I'm told is not to far from Cleveland), New York, London, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Berlin (and Rostock), Japan (numerous places) and Hong Kong. Please contact me off list if you can help. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon May 16 23:39:43 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:39:43 -0700 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! Message-ID: <4289758F.5080708@ix.netcom.com> Any interesting suggestions? Best wishes, Philipp :-) I used to set up a conversion of typewriter input to visible punches in the paper tape. For example, a kid would type his name, the punch would put out his name in 5x7 dot characters. Or a 6x8. They could tear it off and take it with them. I used a standard character generator pattern I found in a data book. Another fun one is to use a mortgage program and have someone give the inputs from their mortgage payments. Then have them increase the payment by $20 a month and see the impact. (The extra money goes against principle so it shortens the pay off time by years.) Assembly for the visible character, Fortran for the mortgage. Have fun. Billy From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon May 16 23:47:42 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:47:42 -0500 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> <42897198.9080107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005a01c55a9b$90b6b190$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions with an early (low) >> bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will >> avoid it or tell me they want it more than me. I've gotten egg on my face... twice... about that. I find an item I want, I set up a snipe bid and walk away. That's the nice part of the automated snipe services, I can forget about it and wait till the "you've won" or "you've lost" email hits my mailbox. I don't go back and constantly watch it. A couple of times, a friend emailed me "hey, why did you snipe it from me?"... the truth is, I didn't even know he was bidding - he wasn't bidding when I set the snipe bid. :\ Guess I should try to remember to mark them with a low bid. Jay West From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 16 23:48:16 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:48:16 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42897790.40804@hachti.de> Hi, > Generate some digits of pi... That's a good idea. That way I can use the full "power" of the FORTRAN IV math library..... :-) or generate permutations in minimal > change (gray code) order is fun. I could write a converter program. The same task in VHDL on a FPGA was my task at the university last week! > Good question though... "hello world" gives you no feel for the > machine whatsoever. Need to make the computer compute... Yes. Hello world says hello world and asks for name, does this and that. I'm looking for some impressive and easy to implement toys. Philipp :-) From cctalk at randy482.com Mon May 16 23:58:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:58:18 -0500 Subject: Disk archival References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001f01c55a9d$0e63e440$863cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 11:20 PM > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> This is the problem that FutureKeep aims to resolve. Existing images >> will >> be able to be converted to the FutureKeep standard, but they will lack >> essential metadata. Once FutureKeep exists, it is hoped that any new >> images made will be done in that universal standard. It is also hoped >> that volunteers will go back and re-image all possible software in the >> FutureKeep file format. > > No offense to anyone who may be part of the project, but that's a pipe > dream. I think a better goal is to create conversion utilities that > perform cross-conversion to/from FutureKeep format, as that is much more > realistic. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ I looked at FutureKeep, as far as I can tell there is no FutureKeep format. There are a variety of real formats but no FutureKeep format. I'd like to archive media in one standard format with metadata but until anyone every developes a standard I'll stck to what is real even if it means using different formats for different systems. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Tue May 17 00:07:46 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:07:46 -0700 Subject: HP 1161 Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <42897C22.3080704@ix.netcom.com> Anyone have a schematic for this unit? It is the Z80 version. I'm scrapping it out but would like to see if I can use the power supply. I'll pay for a copy of the schematics. Parts are available if anyone wants them. Just pay postage. All I want is the chassis and power supply. All the PCBs are 100 pin and look similiar to S-100. Anyone have more knowledge of this? Billy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 17 00:18:31 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:18:31 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention meeting place In-Reply-To: <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> References: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Dan Cohoe wrote: > I know a few people here will be attending Dayton this year and it seems > like a reasonable idea to try to meet other list members if we're all in the > same area. Absolutely! > We're aiming for 5:30-6:00 on Friday night... I am very much in favor of this idea. I usually park behind the restaurant, myself, plus, this year, I happen to be picking up a friend from the Ice at the Dayton airport (less than 7 miles away!) on Friday evening. I was already planning on cooling my heels by the arena; Dan just beat me to suggesting it. We did this two years ago, and it was a nice place to get some dinner and recover from the day's exertions. Hope to see lots of folks there! -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 17 00:31:13 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:31:13 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428972AF.7090502@oldskool.org> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428972AF.7090502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <428981A1.8060700@hachti.de> > What kind of display does it have? Is it bitmapped and/or are the > individual pixel elements individually addressable? Haha! NO Display at all! I displayed the "graphics" by writing "O" and space characters.... :-) From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 17 00:48:51 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:48:51 EDT Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <1ab.38a69db4.2fbadfc3@aol.com> One thing that I have been wondering for a while is what the current definition of minicomputer is. It used to be contrasted with microcomputers, the telling difference being a multichip processor implementation versus a single-chip microprocessor [if so, are the POWER1 and POWER2 processors minicomputer processors?] but now, with microprocessors being used in mainframes (and even on-topic mainframes) is this distinction meaningless [i.e. should the designation "microcomputer" in its size/power context be replaced with something else?] and, if so, does the [whatever micro becomes]/mini/mainframe become a question of mass (>700 lbs mainframe, >100 lbs mini, <100 lbs [???]), or history (the HP3000 started life as a mini, therefore the spectrum models continue as minis . . .), or does the venerable minicomputer cease to exist? any other ideas? Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 17 00:50:56 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:50:56 EDT Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available Message-ID: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> If anyone in the Seattle area needs 2 12V 7Ah alarm/UPS type lead acid batteries (used, charged, still hold it) they are available. From jhoger at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:03:18 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:03:18 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <42897198.9080107@oldskool.org> References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> <42897198.9080107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > John Hogerhuis wrote: > > That's friendly behavior? I actually mark auctions with an early (low) > > bid so friends know I'm sniping it. If they are friendly they will > > avoid it or tell me they want it more than me. > > Sure... I know a lot of my software collecting friends are obsessively > competitive, so I recognize it and take it with a grain of salt. I'd rather be > friends with them than get pissed over an auction I didn't win. In any case, > it's moot; I snipe too, and now we're all on the same playing field. > -- Thankfully my friends are smart and cheapskates and the things we mutually want are not all that rare.. So they see the logic in avoiding competing against each other for no good reason other than to run up the seller's take. I suppose if the things were rare enough we'd all go stealth and snipe without marking the auctions with a low bid. From jhoger at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:06:56 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:06:56 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <005a01c55a9b$90b6b190$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42891912.5000403@oldskool.org> <42897198.9080107@oldskool.org> <005a01c55a9b$90b6b190$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 5/16/05, Jay West wrote: > A couple of times, a friend emailed me "hey, why did you snipe it from > me?"... the truth is, I didn't even know he was bidding Exactly. By marking the item my friends that know my ID know I'm there. I suppose if someone were very interested they could just search for my ID, but it seems like most auctions I bid on are easily found with a simple search. So if they were doing that, it would mean they just don't like me, and I haven't made any real enemies yet AFAIK. From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:12:03 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:12:03 -0500 Subject: homes needed for SGI Indigo2 R4k/250 Solid In-Reply-To: <202.1ba39d3.2fbaa013@aol.com> References: <202.1ba39d3.2fbaa013@aol.com> Message-ID: I believe the measurement you all are looking for is a "metric bjorkload" as defined here: http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/txts/bjorkload.txt -dhbarr. On 5/16/05, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > I have several Silicon Graphics Indigo2 IMPACT workstations (free) with the > following specs > > R4400/250SC (2 MB cache) > 64-128 MB RAM (I think) > Solid IMPACT graphics (one is dual-head with Extreme) > > No disks, but an OS can be made available. > > Also have an Indy > > R5000SC/150 > XL-8 (Newport) graphics > at least 32 MB RAM > Sony PS. > same as above re. disks > Good Dallas units in them when I checked. > > Forward to anyone who would be interested > > In the Seattle area, but I can be persuaded to ship > > I also have a Imperial Hemibuttload of keyboards for them. > > -Scott Quinn > From Tim at rikers.org Tue May 17 01:13:05 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:13:05 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <4289758F.5080708@ix.netcom.com> References: <4289758F.5080708@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <42898B71.8070102@Rikers.org> When I started hacking on the hp2100 portion of simh, I wrote a simple graph output from trig functions. It's in hp basic (early version) and just dumps a graph in ascii. It's makes the blinkenlights hack I did for simh look cool as it works. ;-) pasted in here: http://rikers.org/wiki/FirstComputer -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue May 17 02:50:43 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:50:43 +0100 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> References: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> At 06:50 17/05/2005, you wrote: >If anyone in the Seattle area needs 2 12V 7Ah alarm/UPS type lead acid >batteries (used, charged, still hold it) they are available. No good for me, I'm in the UK. Shipping would be terrible.. I have *two* 1kW Smart-UPS units with dead batteries. (And two more which I am using but the batteries are 'weak'.) Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a case of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) Rob From cc at corti-net.de Tue May 17 04:03:08 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> References: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Teledisk: works with MFM disks only, file format not published, limited Well, that's not true at all. 1. TeleDisk works fine with FM *and* MFM disks, even with mixed coding, sector sizes and densities (IBM System/34 format, track 0 side 0 FM 26 sect., 128 bytes/sect., additional directory tracks MFM 26 sect., 256 bytes/sect., data tracks e.g. 8 sect.,1024 bytes/sect.), supports normal and deleted address marks, will read bad sectors anyway, stores sector ID fields as read (important for CBM 1581 disks with swapped head IDs) and so on. TeleDisk archives and restores everything your combination of FDC and FDD can do. For example I have a Multi I/O controller card with an FDC that supports 128 bytes/sect. MFM. This makes it possible to archive Robotron A5120 UDOS diskettes. 2. The file format has been reverse-engineered some time ago. See http://www.fpns.net/willy/wteledsk.htm for more information (it's not my site!). Christian From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 17 04:20:19 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:20:19 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? Message-ID: <4289B753.7070303@mdrconsult.com> Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect Systems) The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be happy just to boot CP/M on the thing. FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. Doc From GOOI at oce.nl Tue May 17 05:34:33 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:34:33 +0200 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) http://n6tv.kkn.net/Text_vs_Morse_Leno_2005_05_13.wmv 73, - Henk, PA8PDP. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue May 17 06:18:24 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:18:24 +0100 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <012a01c55ad2$257d5550$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Nice to see the oldtimers gettnig a day out :D Bleh.. I knew morse would win.. It's obvious Anyways... Thnx a lot much appreciated 73 Charles - 2E0GOM -----Original Message----- From: Gooijen H [mailto:GOOI at oce.nl] Sent: 17 May 2005 11:35 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show Hi all, if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) http://n6tv.kkn.net/Text_vs_Morse_Leno_2005_05_13.wmv -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 06:34:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:34:55 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <0IGM007CWTHKQ1MD@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: mini versus micro? > From: Saquinn624 at aol.com > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:48:51 -0400 (EDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >One thing that I have been wondering for a while is what the current >definition of minicomputer is. >It used to be contrasted with microcomputers, the telling difference being a >multichip processor implementation versus a single-chip microprocessor [if so, >are the POWER1 and POWER2 processors >minicomputer processors?] but now, with microprocessors being used in >mainframes (and even on-topic mainframes) is this distinction meaningless [i.e. >should the designation "microcomputer" in its size/power context be replaced with >something else?] and, if so, does the [whatever micro becomes]/mini/mainframe >become a question of mass (>700 lbs mainframe, >100 lbs mini, <100 lbs [???]), >or history (the HP3000 started life as a mini, therefore the spectrum models >continue as minis . . .), or does the venerable minicomputer cease to exist? >any other ideas? > >Scott Quinn Minicomputer in my lexicon is any computer that DID NOT start as a microcomputer chip. Examples: Nova, PDP-8, PDP-11 even VAX. Those wer picked as in every case there is a Microcomputer implmentation that came later. In most cases the Micro version is as capable or more so as a result of developmental maturity. Second part of that is it stops being a MINICOMPUTER when it's small enough that a rack is not the standard mounting platform. So age, type and mass are determining factors. The term mini came from the '60s when computers started from filling rooms to fitting in office corners. The concurrent event is skirts got way shorter too, hence the name. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 06:40:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:40:06 -0400 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available Message-ID: <0IGM00B61TQ7IGB3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available > From: "Rob O'Donnell" > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:50:43 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a case >of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does >anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) > > >Rob > For the first question, NO. The second I can not help with the UK though here they are cheap. (USA) One hint, I've used APC UPS's and their software self tests way to often and kills battteries very fast, to the point of excess. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 06:46:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:46:08 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGM004D3U09C0T5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: John Hogerhuis > Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:58:44 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/16/05, Allison wrote: >> I'll have to look more at all this. However, step one is to >> get the M100 I have up to 32k ram. Then I'll look at how secondary >> rom socket space is used. I'd like a configuration that also has >> ram at 0000h and maybe a OS in it. I've considered getting > >That has been done... I believe what you do is put a RAM in the Option >ROM socket and bring out the necessary signals (/WE I think). Also the >NEC 8201A and NEC 8300 are able to switch to all RAM mode with a short >program. I'd be surprized if it weren't already done. Way too easy. The switch for M100 is also trivial piece of code. The real trick is to keep the rom socket available. So the magic is to make the all ram option a third one and software selectable. >There was at some point in time a device called a PIC Disk that >allowed you to run CP/M on the Model 100. It connected to the bus >expansion port underneath the M100. Tandy also had one that added a vidio and disk to the M100 that used the bus connector. I have part of the manual for it. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 17 07:43:37 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:43:37 -0500 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> References: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517074223.05147cd8@mail> At 02:50 AM 5/17/2005, Rob O'Donnell wrote: >Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a case of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) And due to my own packrat tendencies, I have a large pile of dead UPSes of various sizes, along with an item on my very long to-do list that says "buy replacement lead-acid batteries." Any recommendations for a supplier in the USA? - John From James at jdfogg.com Tue May 17 08:08:27 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:08:27 -0400 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A2A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Hi all, > if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) > > http://n6tv.kkn.net/Text_vs_Morse_Leno_2005_05_13.wmv > > 73, > - Henk, PA8PDP. Thanks for the link - it's great to see the juxtaposition of technologies. It makes me wish I hadn't missed my expiration of my ham license (N1QCO). From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue May 17 08:22:45 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517074223.05147cd8@mail> References: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050517074223.05147cd8@mail> Message-ID: <38446.144.160.5.25.1116336165.squirrel@144.160.5.25> > At 02:50 AM 5/17/2005, Rob O'Donnell wrote: >>Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a >> case of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, >> does anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) If they haven't been treated well, IE charged by a cheap, non-smart charger or allowed to sit uncharged for long periods or othewise abused, or if they're just plain worn out, there's really no hope for them. Sorry. Stories abound about using capacitor banks discharged through them to rejuvinate them, but that's all pretty much folklore with relatively little basis in fact, except for an extremely limited range of circumstances. ***Dispose of them properly*** they contain lead, a toxic metal. In the US, drag them over to Batteries Plus and just drop them off, free of charge, no questions asked, and they will be recycled properly. In the UK...??? > And due to my own packrat tendencies, I have a large pile of dead UPSes > of various sizes, along with an item on my very long to-do list > that says "buy replacement lead-acid batteries." Any recommendations > for a supplier in the USA? There's a variety of sources, but the best deal so far is a corporate account at Batteries plus. I pay a few bucks more for some types, much less for more popular 12v UPS batteries, and save overall. That's my .015 euro. de N9QQB From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue May 17 08:25:07 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:25:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available Message-ID: <37262.144.160.5.25.1116336307.squirrel@144.160.5.25> > At 02:50 AM 5/17/2005, Rob O'Donnell wrote: >>Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a >> case of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, >> does anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) If they haven't been treated well, IE charged by a cheap, non-smart charger or allowed to sit uncharged for long periods or othewise abused, or if they're just plain worn out, there's really no hope for them. Sorry. Stories abound about using capacitor banks discharged through them to rejuvinate them, but that's all pretty much folklore with relatively little basis in fact, except for an extremely limited range of circumstances. ***Dispose of them properly*** they contain lead, a toxic metal. In the US, drag them over to Batteries Plus and just drop them off, free of charge, no questions asked, and they will be recycled properly. In the UK...??? > And due to my own packrat tendencies, I have a large pile of dead UPSes > of various sizes, along with an item on my very long to-do list > that says "buy replacement lead-acid batteries." Any recommendations > for a supplier in the USA? There's a variety of sources, but the best deal so far is a corporate account at Batteries plus. I pay a few bucks more for some types, much less for more popular 12v UPS batteries, and save overall. That's my .015 euro. de N9QQB From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 08:52:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:52:09 -0400 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available Message-ID: <0IGM00BNSZU9IJR3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available > From: John Foust > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:43:37 -0500 > To: > >And due to my own packrat tendencies, I have a large pile of dead UPSes >of various sizes, along with an item on my very long to-do list >that says "buy replacement lead-acid batteries." Any recommendations >for a supplier in the USA? > >- John There are any number of battery suppliers. APC also supplies them but at 80$(shipping included plus return reciept for the dead ones) for two 7AH batts they arent cheap. I expect to pay less than 26$US for 12V at 7AH new at the local suppliers, cheaper is out there. Allison From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue May 17 08:57:43 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:57:43 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] RE: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A2A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <001f01c55ae8$65e18c40$2101a8c0@finans> From: "James Fogg" > > if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) > > > > http://n6tv.kkn.net/Text_vs_Morse_Leno_2005_05_13.wmv > > > > 73, > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > Thanks for the link - it's great to see the juxtaposition of > technologies. It makes me wish I hadn't missed my expiration of my ham > license (N1QCO). > Great fragment. I recently saw a new product : a full size PC keyboard where you could attach a cell phone, obviously aimed at the text message marked... Hm, why not build a cell phone into an ASR33, where the modem usually was located ? That would allow for hardcopying txts... 73, Nico (OZ1BMC) From bill at timeguy.com Tue May 17 09:08:21 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:08:21 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200505162038.j4GKbDr6085982@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505162038.j4GKbDr6085982@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050517140821.GB34506@outpost.timeguy.com> I'm trying to help a friend locate a replacement tape drive wheel for an HP 9144 tape drive. He says that there's a hard roller inside the tape cartridge, and there's a softer (rubber?) roller in the drive that pushes against it, pulling the tape along. Apparently the softer rollers tend to turn to "goo" after many years. He's been working to recover some archived files from the beginnings of the company he works for, mostly for historical interest, and his last tape drive recently succumbed to the "goo" problem. Anyone have any replacement rollers that would be in any better shape, or any suggestions for alternatives? Thanks! From GOOI at oce.nl Tue May 17 09:11:30 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:11:30 +0200 Subject: [ZS1] RE: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C9A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ok, to stay OT (sorry, could not resist) it is a uhmm "special" to take a keyboard with you, but you would certainly force respect if you took an ASR33 along :~) - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Nico de Jong > Sent: dinsdag 17 mei 2005 15:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: [ZS1] RE: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay > Leno show > > > From: "James Fogg" > > > > if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) > > > > > > http://n6tv.kkn.net/Text_vs_Morse_Leno_2005_05_13.wmv > > > > > > 73, > > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > Thanks for the link - it's great to see the juxtaposition of > > technologies. It makes me wish I hadn't missed my > expiration of my ham > > license (N1QCO). > > > Great fragment. > I recently saw a new product : a full size PC keyboard where you could > attach a cell phone, obviously aimed at the text message marked... > Hm, why not build a cell phone into an ASR33, where the modem > usually was > located ? > That would allow for hardcopying txts... > > 73, Nico (OZ1BMC) > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 09:12:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm looking for ideas for a few small demo programs I want to write for > my Honeywell H316 minicomputer. > > I have written a Mandelbrot demo program which plots on the ASR or line > printer - that's already very nice. Bu now I want to do more ;-) Write a recipe book application so they can finally sell the Kitchen Computer: http://starfish.osfn.org/~mikeu/h316/kitchen.shtml ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 09:19:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This is the problem that FutureKeep aims to resolve. Existing images will > > be able to be converted to the FutureKeep standard, but they will lack > > essential metadata. Once FutureKeep exists, it is hoped that any new > > images made will be done in that universal standard. It is also hoped > > that volunteers will go back and re-image all possible software in the > > FutureKeep file format. > > No offense to anyone who may be part of the project, but that's a pipe dream. What part? At any rate, my answer is "Not at all." > I think a better goal is to create conversion utilities that perform > cross-conversion to/from FutureKeep format, as that is much more realistic. That will also be done, but I would prefer to re-do images that don't have sufficient metadata. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcfmw at computer-refuge.org Mon May 16 11:17:48 2005 From: vcfmw at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:17:48 -0500 Subject: VCF/Midwest 1.0 date change In-Reply-To: <200505111431.31417.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505111431.31417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200505161117.48845.vcfmw@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 May 2005 14:31, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Just a quick note that the VCF/Midwest 1.0 date is getting pushed > back to Saturday, July 30th. It'll start with speakers at 10am, and > have exhibits open from 12pm until 5pm. As a reminder, the location > is at Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN. Looks like Jay just went through the moderation queues... FYI, this is the same date that Sellam announced in his VCF Gazette. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 16 19:02:06 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:02:06 -0400 Subject: TI 990 Handbook; anyone want it? Message-ID: <01C55A52.8E10A200@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> I've got a TI 990 Computer Family Systems Handbook here, paperback, 3rd edition, TI-439-25M-5/76, good condition. Anybody want it for $5 & S? mike From bv at norbionics.com Tue May 17 03:50:53 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:50:53 +0200 Subject: Pathology or hobby? In-Reply-To: <42890693.4040701@oldskool.org> References: <20050514202403.25842.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> <20050514181038.T781@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050516094709.056eb1d0@mail> <006d01c55a46$2a5ce9f0$985d1941@game> <42890693.4040701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005 22:46:11 +0200, Jim Leonard wrote: ... > > So you can be a mixture of all the above :) but the main point, for me, > is that a collector presents and displays his collection, and keeps it > accessible... whereas a packrat hoardes, doesn't always know what he > has, and can't get to everything in his possession. > This are good points. I am a packrat myself, without having any inheritance to blame it on. I have a small collection of old cameras, all of which can (or at least could, if I made film to fit them) be used. I have a large collection of books, a private library that I use and enjoy. I have a basement full of computer parts and sundry electronics which I grabbed because they were available, with some dim future plan to do something with. I also have a number of personal computers of differing vintages ut to the newest, which I use and keep working past their normal lifespan. I think that is actually the important part - museum people say that the critical time when things are lost to posterity is just after they are no longer new and fashionable, but before they are old and interesting. I think my 1978 Iwatsu oscilloscope fits in that group - I still use it, but not very much, and it is old-fashioned and all analogue. However, I do not think most collectors are presenting their collections. They will often display it, but only privately. And even if a collection is open to the public, it is not necessarily a museum. A museum also works systematically on preservation and research, and publishes results. Then we have the archive and the library. They are much akin. A library collects what many desire temporary access to, either for research, self-education or pleasure. Libraries are accessible to the public or a defined subset of the public. If the subset is the owner and possibly some close friends, it is a private library. An archive collects everything within its scope, usually only one copy, sometimes one for strict preservation and one for use by researchers. Archives are usually only accessible to what the archive sees as researchers. That, of course, may range from an auditor who wants to check on a receipt from 1992 in a company archive to a scolar looking for the first mention of freemasons in the archives of the Vatican Library. It is unlikely that the same person would be granted access to both archives. The main property af an archive as well as of a museum is continuity. They must exist independent of their curator, and need a way to ensure that. They should probably be legally made into some form of self-owning entity. Different countries will have different rules and options for that, but it will often give the collector a tax break as well as saving his family lots of trouble in case he should succumb to an unexpected illness or accident. -- -bv From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue May 17 07:27:42 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:27:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> References: <1dc.3ce98a0c.2fbae040@aol.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <42586.195.212.29.67.1116332862.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > At 06:50 17/05/2005, you wrote: > >>If anyone in the Seattle area needs 2 12V 7Ah alarm/UPS type lead acid >>batteries (used, charged, still hold it) they are available. > > No good for me, I'm in the UK. Shipping would be terrible.. > > I have *two* 1kW Smart-UPS units with dead batteries. (And two more which > I am using but the batteries are 'weak'.) > > Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a > case > of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does > anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) > The sealed lead acids are pretty cheap. Try Maplins, or your local non-franchised "big" electronics shop (Taits, in Glasgow, for me). Where are you? Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 09:25:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:25:46 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive Message-ID: <0IGN00BMH1EAILQ3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive > From: Bill Richman > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:08:21 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I'm trying to help a friend locate a replacement tape drive wheel for an HP 9144 tape drive. He says that there's a hard roller inside the tape cartridge, and there's a softer (rubber?) roller in the drive that pushes against it, pulling the tape along. Apparently the softer rollers tend to turn to "goo" after many years. He's been working to recover some archived files from the beginnings of the company he works for, mostly for historical interest, and his last tape drive recently succumbed to the "goo" problem. Anyone have any replacement rollers that would be in any better shape, or any suggestions for alternatives? Thanks! > Line Breaks! I just scrape off the goo and use some suitably sized tygon (Vinyl) tubing to make a replacement roller. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 09:25:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <42897790.40804@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Generate some digits of pi... > That's a good idea. That way I can use the full "power" of the FORTRAN > IV math library..... :-) > > or generate permutations in minimal > > change (gray code) order is fun. > I could write a converter program. The same task in VHDL on a FPGA was > my task at the university last week! > > > > Good question though... "hello world" gives you no feel for the > > machine whatsoever. Need to make the computer compute... > Yes. Hello world says hello world and asks for name, does this and that. > I'm looking for some impressive and easy to implement toys. Impressive != (normally) easy to implement. Find an IMP and re-create the ARPAnet protocols. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 09:28:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <1ab.38a69db4.2fbadfc3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005 Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > One thing that I have been wondering for a while is what the current > definition of minicomputer is. > It used to be contrasted with microcomputers, the telling difference being a > multichip processor implementation versus a single-chip microprocessor [if so, > are the POWER1 and POWER2 processors > minicomputer processors?] but now, with microprocessors being used in > mainframes (and even on-topic mainframes) is this distinction meaningless [i.e. > should the designation "microcomputer" in its size/power context be replaced with > something else?] and, if so, does the [whatever micro becomes]/mini/mainframe > become a question of mass (>700 lbs mainframe, >100 lbs mini, <100 lbs [???]), > or history (the HP3000 started life as a mini, therefore the spectrum models > continue as minis . . .), or does the venerable minicomputer cease to exist? > any other ideas? We had to address this issue for the VCF. In deciding what classes to create, we decided on Microcomputer and "Mini, Multi-User, or Larger Computer", with the following definitions: 1. Microcomputer A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a single integrated circuit. 2. Mini, Multi-User, or Larger Computer This class encompasses all computers that were intended primarily to be used by multiple simultaneous users (i.e. mainframes), or that were smaller (in terms of size and power consumption) than mainframe computers but utilized a central processing unit comprised of many discrete or integrated circuit components either on a single carrier or across multiple carriers. Comments welcome. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue May 17 10:12:41 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:12:41 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's archive In-Reply-To: <200505171501.j4HF1EoZ002062@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505171512.j4HFCfHI021917@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "But gathering together a large number of rare, desirable items (however subjective) into one place without a will or letter of intent is not "archiving". In fact it's the opposite -- items were taken out of circulation probably permanently." A point here that might be worth making to Don's widow is that since the materials in question are software archives, they can both be made available to the world while she still retains the physical items and library herself. It's not like collecting motorcycles. These items can be duplicated without any destruction of the originals. From cb at mythtech.net Tue May 17 10:26:50 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:26:50 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: >1. Microcomputer > >A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two >microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. >For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central >processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated >circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a >single integrated circuit. Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply because they are far too new? -chris From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 10:28:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's archive Message-ID: <20050517152802.76E0F70C759A@bitsavers.org> > These items can be duplicated without any destruction of the originals. This may or may not be true depending on the condition of the media. Floppies suffer the same 'sticky shed' problems that magnetic tape does. Depending on the condition of the binder, I have seen floppies stripped to the clear mylar in little concentric rings when they were tried. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 17 10:40:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:40:04 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <0IGN00B4W4U4O834@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: mini versus micro? > From: chris > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:26:50 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " > >>1. Microcomputer >> >>A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two >>microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. >>For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central >>processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated >>circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a >>single integrated circuit. > >Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 >towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply >because they are far too new? > >-chris > It's alrady that bad. The average Pentium micro (PC) has not less than three often more cpus. For example: CPU pentium S at 100mhz Keybord interface 8042 micro Keyboard (has one of several micros) CDrom (at lest one micro) IDE disks (one sometimes two micros) Enhanced graphics card (Micro, esp if MP3 or???) Shall I be more pendantic? the definitions are far too heavy. Size and power required are better definers followed by basic design. For the most part there were no microcomputers when minis roamed the earth. By time micros became something significant the minis were then called SuperMinis. This points out capability. BUT: then you have something like microVAX2000 thats nearly a half cubic foot box at maybe 150W power and can easily serve a few users (at least under VMS). Its a archetecture of a supermini implemented as a micro in a tiny box. Labels, use care when applying. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue May 17 10:38:38 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:38:38 -0400 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available References: <0IGM00BNSZU9IJR3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <016401c55af6$7f8674e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Any recommendations for a supplier in the USA? Jameco, a pretty good name supplier, always struck me as having good prices, haven't actually bought one from them yet though. Their catalog pictures Tysonic 2-year guaranteed cells FWIW. The one UPS setup that I manage is an Industrial scale Tripp-Lite + Sears Deep cycle rig. The little guys above are priced at about $2/A-H, the sears solution below is more like $0.25 per. John A. From kth at srv.net Tue May 17 10:48:58 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:48:58 -0600 Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050516211823.QMWN16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <428A126A.6070702@srv.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) >{ > int i; > for(i=0; ;) { > printf("%u", aryp[i]); > if(++i >= n) > break; > fputs(", ", stdout); } > putc('\n', stdout); >} > > > > What's wrong with this (assumes that aryp[0] exists, which the above program also assumes), shorter, more obvious as to what is happening, etc.: void print_arg(int *aryp, unsigned n) { printf("%u", aryp[0]); for(int i=1; i= 0) { printf("%u", aryp[0]); for(int i=1; i A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. -- I prefer the term "Consumer Computer" It is/was the kind of machine you buy in a retail store. The term minicomputer originated in the early 70s to classifly a type of sub $50000 computer that could be purchased by departments (as opposed to having to go though corporate DP approval) DEC and many others sold these types of computers earlier than the 70s, but at the time they weren't called 'minicomputers'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minicomputer has an interesting definition, though I disagree with some of the claims made there. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 17 10:51:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP-IB Census In-Reply-To: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> References: <42725E47.A8D34C0D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200505171606.MAA15837@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I am compiling some information for a HP-IB KnowledgeBase article / > FAQ and need some input. [...] > * Introduction / Tutorial - Basic overview of the protocol > * Protocols - HP-IB, GPIB, SICL, IEEE-488, etc... > * Characteristics - Electrical and physical characteristics > * Instruments - Talking to instruments > * Bus Analyzers - IE HP59401A > * CS-80 disks - The CS-80 / SS-80 protocols > * Programming - Linux, HP-UX, C, assembler, other Well, personally, I've got a bunch of HP-IB stuff and a small amount of other IEEE 488 stuff and I'd like to know anything I need to make them play nice together. This probably includes the first four items on your list and to some extent the last - though programming doco that's all about how to use someone else's binary-only libraries would be of little use to me. Maybe the second-last, though I don't know whether the disks I have are CS-80 disks. In particular, I have an IEEE488 card for my SPARCs and I'd like to make it act like a disk to the HP machines I have. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kth at srv.net Tue May 17 11:18:55 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:18:55 -0600 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <00c701c55a47$f62ed790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <00c701c55a47$f62ed790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <428A196F.3080003@srv.net> Another item that should be added to the archive would be the various ROMs/PROMs/etc for numerous classic systems. In addition to helping rebuild old systems, they would also be useful for creating emulators. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 11:46:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's archive Message-ID: <200505171646.JAA21739@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > >Re: "But gathering together a large number of rare, desirable items >(however subjective) into one place without a will or letter of >intent is not "archiving". In fact it's the opposite -- items were >taken out of circulation probably permanently." > >A point here that might be worth making to Don's widow is that since the >materials in question are software archives, they can both be made available >to the world while she still retains the physical items and library herself. >It's not like collecting motorcycles. These items can be duplicated without >any destruction of the originals. Hi I don't believe this is her issue. I suspect it is a combination of grief, anger and ignorance. I think the main thing to do is to let her know that she shouldn't just dump the stuff. Beyond that, I'd guess just back off and leave her alone. Dwight From jhoger at gmail.com Tue May 17 11:54:50 2005 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:54:50 -0700 Subject: Tandy T100 info In-Reply-To: <0IGM004D3U09C0T5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGM004D3U09C0T5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 5/17/05, Allison wrote: > Tandy also had one that added a vidio and disk to the M100 that > used the bus connector. I have part of the manual for it. > I know about the DVI. But the PIC Disk actually let you boot CP/M. What I forgot to mention was that it put the M100 into an all-RAM 64k mode operating over the expansion bus. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 12:02:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another part data sheet request Message-ID: <200505171702.KAA21748@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All Here is another request. I'm looking for at least the pinouts for the following parts made by Western Digital ( I think ): WD1100V-01 WD1100V-03 WD1100V-04 WD1100V-05 WD1100V-12 These have various functions related to disk I/O. Thanks Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 17 12:05:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:05:29 -0500 Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: References: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <428A2459.2080009@oldskool.org> What version are YOU running? My shareware version from the early 1990s clearly can't do all that you describe. Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Teledisk: works with MFM disks only, file format not published, limited > > > Well, that's not true at all. > 1. > TeleDisk works fine with FM *and* MFM disks, even with mixed coding, > sector sizes and densities (IBM System/34 format, track 0 side 0 FM 26 > sect., 128 bytes/sect., additional directory tracks MFM 26 sect., 256 > bytes/sect., data tracks e.g. 8 sect.,1024 bytes/sect.), supports normal > and deleted address marks, will read bad sectors anyway, stores sector > ID fields as read (important for CBM 1581 disks with swapped head IDs) > and so on. TeleDisk archives and restores everything your combination of > FDC and FDD can do. For example I have a Multi I/O controller card with > an FDC that supports 128 bytes/sect. MFM. This makes it possible to > archive Robotron A5120 UDOS diskettes. > 2. > The file format has been reverse-engineered some time ago. See > http://www.fpns.net/willy/wteledsk.htm for more information (it's not my > site!). > > Christian -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Tue May 17 09:20:15 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:20:15 -0400 Subject: Doing some house keeping and need to find a home for a few items Message-ID: <4289FD9F.3040406@worldnet.att.net> Hi, all Need to find homes for a few items. These are in Kent Washington south of Seattle. These are mostly very large items or hard to ship. So pick up here only or arrange for your own shipping. 1- Vax 6000 320 very good condition no real damage to the enclosure missing the hard drives. I believe there where RA-72's drives. Looks complete and very clean inside. Very Large, Very heavy. 100.00 1- TI 990 A13 This does not turn on and has a bad power supply at minimum. Has 2 hard drives with Cartridge tape drives Model WD 800, 3 terminals, 3 or 4 boxes of manuals and tapes. No hardware manuals, just software. Missing the side covers for the rack. and has some damage to one of the front grilles. 400.00 1- TI printing terminal (like a DEC writer). 50.00 1- NEC APC color Computer in the original Box. Has most of the Manuals and software. 8" floppy. Needs a Keyboard. 50.00 1- external hard drive of a NEC APC. APC H-26 unknown condition 50.00 2- HP 7970B Mag tape drives. Both turn on, but have not been tested. both have 1 panel on the front door that has come loose and needs to be reglued. 75.00 ea. 1- Dec writer 3 in very good working condition 75.00 1- Fluke 1775B Printer. New, this is a Tally 1602 with HBIB interface Dot matrix 35.00 1- HP 2601a printer. this is a diablo 630 (serial) Daisy wheel 25.00 1- DEC Micro Vax 2 with M7620 AA (Micro Vax 3), M7621a, Non Dec memory, M7546 Tk50 board, M7555 MFM and Floppy board. Has no Hard drives. Does have TK 50 tape. all of the ext. panels are there. 100.00 1- Cipher 100-860 Mag tape Unknown condition 50.00 1- Tek 4105 terminal, no keyboard. 20.00 1- OutPut Tech. laser printer. Looks looks like a Laser jet 2 But prints on Tractor feed 8 1/2 x 11" paper. Works has new Drum kit. 35.00 1- Barco 400 RGB projector Does XGA with manual. has not been used in a couple of years. Large, heavy and Free 1- Northern Telcom SS400 Disk drive. This is a Small roll around 8" SCSI drive with a Exabyte 2.5 gig tape drive. unknown condition. 25.00 1- Wang PC. This is not a standard PC. Is about 24" deep takes a special monitor. Not included. Has hard drive, and 5 1/4 floppy. I believe I have software Disks. Model PC-002 with Keyboard 35.00 1- Lexmark Optra S2455, laser Printer. high page count but looks like new and works fine. Has second paper bin. prints 24 PPM has P-port and ether net 10/100 75.00 1- NCR 1202 pc ?? this is a all in one Unit with 2 floppy dirves. Lots of add on modules, software and manuals. No Keyboard. 45.00 1- Toshiba Computer. I believe these where CPM systems. Has CPU and Keyboard all in one. with external Floppy drive. No software 25.00 - offers welcome - please don't leave Posts here. email me at g-wright at att.net or call. Day time Phone 800-292-6370 or 253-854-9601 9-6 PST M-F Thanks, Jerry Jerry wright JLC From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 17 12:22:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:22:23 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428981A1.8060700@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428972AF.7090502@oldskool.org> <428981A1.8060700@hachti.de> Message-ID: <428A284F.7070406@oldskool.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> What kind of display does it have? Is it bitmapped and/or are the >> individual pixel elements individually addressable? > > Haha! NO Display at all! I displayed the "graphics" by writing "O" and > space characters.... :-) So much for my realtime graphics examples, then :-) I'd say fractals are your best bet for a "demo" of the machine. Or, try to print better "graphics" by using a combination of . o O (and others) and quarter-stepping the platen and/or print head (if the capability exists). If not, you could still attempt better display by working internally with grayscales and using different letters and/or dithering to better represent the graphic. There are a multitude of ways to display graphics on printers using more than just "O" and space :-) If you know 3D, try using the generated fractal as a height map and plot something interesting with it :-) Does the machine have a tone generator? If so, try to work it -- see if you can alter the frequency (tone/pitch) to make music. Arpeggiate to simulate n-part harmony. If enough cycles exist, try sound synthesis. Get creative :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 17 12:31:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:31:21 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > (I'm considering a new look, since I've been getting weary of the funny > looks from 10 year old boys at McDonalds these days.) Your license plate wouldn't happen to be "D-FENS", would it? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 12:31:44 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:31:44 -0500 Subject: Disk archival References: <428903AE.8050407@oldskool.org> <428A2459.2080009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007001c55b06$4f3ce750$653cd7d1@randy> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 12:05 PM > What version are YOU running? My shareware version from the early 1990s > clearly can't do all that you describe. > > Christian Corti wrote: >> On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> Teledisk: works with MFM disks only, file format not published, limited >> >> >> Well, that's not true at all. >> 1. >> TeleDisk works fine with FM *and* MFM disks, even with mixed coding, >> sector sizes and densities (IBM System/34 format, track 0 side 0 FM 26 >> sect., 128 bytes/sect., additional directory tracks MFM 26 sect., 256 >> bytes/sect., data tracks e.g. 8 sect.,1024 bytes/sect.), supports normal >> and deleted address marks, will read bad sectors anyway, stores sector ID >> fields as read (important for CBM 1581 disks with swapped head IDs) and >> so on. TeleDisk archives and restores everything your combination of FDC >> and FDD can do. For example I have a Multi I/O controller card with an >> FDC that supports 128 bytes/sect. MFM. This makes it possible to archive >> Robotron A5120 UDOS diskettes. >> 2. >> The file format has been reverse-engineered some time ago. See >> http://www.fpns.net/willy/wteledsk.htm for more information (it's not my >> site!). >> >> Christian > > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ The problem is in the hardware don't blame teledisk for poor PC hardware. I keep a Compaq 575e (P100) just because it handles FM. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 17 12:34:34 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:34:34 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention meeting place In-Reply-To: References: <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> <002101c55a80$1f6a48a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517133212.03d17e58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 5/16/05, Dan Cohoe wrote: > > I know a few people here will be attending Dayton this year and it seems > > like a reasonable idea to try to meet other list members if we're all > in the > > same area. > >Absolutely! Mee Tooo! Tho, I'm going with one other person, so I'll have to see what's on his plate... I have to talk to him today or tomorrow anyway in preparation for leaving Thursday morning, should be in Dayton between 4 and 5 pm. > > We're aiming for 5:30-6:00 on Friday night... > >We did this two years ago, and it was a nice place to get some dinner >and recover from the day's exertions. And restore the soul with a brew or two, I hope... ;-) I'll keep everyone appraised of my itinerary... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 17 12:31:20 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:31:20 -0400 Subject: Don Maslin's archive In-Reply-To: <20050517152802.76E0F70C759A@bitsavers.org> References: <20050517152802.76E0F70C759A@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <428A2A68.5060408@atarimuseum.com> I've run across a number of 9track tapes that were literally "sweating" and even with the old oven bake proceedure, the tapes were burying the tape heads in a sludge, the process of continually stopping, cleaning, rewinding and restarting takes a lot out of the drive and the tapes get worse as they go. Also, many tapes (depending on make and age) can actually be so brittle that during the read the material seperates from the transport, not a pretty sight. Curt Al Kossow wrote: >>These items can be duplicated without any destruction of the originals. >> >> > >This may or may not be true depending on the condition of the media. > >Floppies suffer the same 'sticky shed' problems that magnetic tape does. > >Depending on the condition of the binder, I have seen floppies stripped to >the clear mylar in little concentric rings when they were tried. > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.11 - Release Date: 5/16/2005 From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 12:46:52 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:46:52 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? References: <4289B753.7070303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00a601c55b08$6c6a77f0$653cd7d1@randy> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:20 AM > Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable > disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect Systems) > The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be happy > just to boot CP/M on the thing. > > FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk > and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. > > Doc Since Don passed away I've been trying to collect boot disks, while I have a couple of Kaypro disks I don't have the Advent ones. If you ever get copies please let me know, I can even write software to copy the ROM to disk. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 17 12:53:44 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:53:44 +0100 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 2005 08:50:43 BST." <6.2.1.2.0.20050517081426.03531538@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <200505171753.SAA08657@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Rob O'Donnell said: > At 06:50 17/05/2005, you wrote: > > >If anyone in the Seattle area needs 2 12V 7Ah alarm/UPS type lead acid > >batteries (used, charged, still hold it) they are available. > > No good for me, I'm in the UK. Shipping would be terrible.. > > I have *two* 1kW Smart-UPS units with dead batteries. (And two more which > I am using but the batteries are 'weak'.) > > Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a case > of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does > anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) In my experience dead ones are scrap :-) For a UK supplier try ARD electronics http://www.ardelectronics.com 12V 7.2AH at 10.66 GBP plus p&p and the dreaded VAT. ARD are a good firm to deal with, if I phone an order before 4.30pm and it's in stock, it usually arrives at about 9 am next day! I have no connection with them other than being a long-time customer... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 14:03:16 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's archive Message-ID: <20050517190316.8FCBC70C75E7@bitsavers.org> Also, many tapes (depending on make and age) can actually be so brittle that during the read the material seperates from the transport, not a pretty sight. -- What appears to happen is the adhesion to the previous layer of tape is greater than to the original, and it strips the oxide and binder to clear mylar (not a pretty sight or sound). I have become VERY cautious when working with old floppies and tapes and assume that I will only get one pass at recovering the data. For discs, you want to keep the heads moving. I've crashed a LOT of disc packs by staying on a single track too long. From Tim at rikers.org Tue May 17 14:27:03 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:27:03 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <0IGN00BMH1EAILQ3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGN00BMH1EAILQ3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <428A4587.6030905@Rikers.org> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive >> From: Bill Richman >> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:08:21 -0500 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> I'm trying to help a friend locate a replacement tape drive wheel >> for an HP 9144 tape drive. He says that there's a hard roller inside the tape cartridge, and there's a softer (rubber?) roller in the drive that pushes against it, pulling the tape along. Apparently the softer rollers tend to turn to "goo" after many years. He's been working to recover some archived files from the beginnings of the company he works for, mostly for historical interest, and his last tape drive recently succumbed to the "goo" problem. Anyone have any replacement rollers that would be in any better shape, or any suggestions for alternatives? Thanks! >> > > Line Breaks! > > I just scrape off the goo and use some suitably sized tygon (Vinyl) > tubing to make a replacement roller. > > Allison OK, similar response for an HP 2761A optical mark reader? One issue here is that I don't know the diameter of the original roller. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_134519 Perhaps someone has a service manual for this reader? Looks like Jeff Moffatt had one for the interface card. http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/iocards/iocards2.txt -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From tomj at wps.com Tue May 17 14:40:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050517112642.E850@localhost> On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > No offense to anyone who may be part of the project, but that's a pipe dream. > I think a better goal is to create conversion utilities that perform > cross-conversion to/from FutureKeep format, as that is much more realistic. I completely agree. Lessons from the past are simple to grok. There is no complex data standard and certainly no media that has survived long enough to be considered permanent. My bias is towards the simple; at least then when it's incompatible you have less raw data, and less-ambiguous work (you hope). The more the payload data is encumbered with organization, formatting, compression, interpretation, etc the harder it is. There's no universal approach, but if we're talking about mainly floppies, a simple sector dump (note 1) with a hand-written description of the organization would probably suffice. An example: * a byte stream copy (note 1) of the diskette image, say 256256 8-bit-bytes long. Even printed on paper. Who knows what OCR will be like in 20 years? * A scrap of paper upon which is written: "Copied from a Shugart 801, 8", single-sided, soft-sectored, WD1771 FM format. CP/M-80. 128 byte sectors, 26 spt, 77 tracks." Dumb. Simple. Repeatable. Portable as anything will be after 1, 5, 10, 20 years. NOTE 1: you can either rely on a byte today being a byte tomorrow, or define a mapping that is unambiguous, such as a description of the local file system's byte ordering, or use a text representation of the numbers (disk as a string) with a Rosetta Stone for ASCII, or define as decimal, etc. Cruder is better. A representation of the diskette contents consisting of: 0: 0 1: 255 2: 47 ... 256253: 229 256253: 229 256255: 229 with the prose description above is more than enough to simply recreate the diskette, whatever that means. From tomj at wps.com Tue May 17 14:42:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <20050517124058.L850@localhost> If you have a keyboard and one line of upper case text, how about the old ANIMALS game? It's reasonably "interactive" for something that codes up in very little assembly language. 16K is plenty of memory for it. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 14:52:33 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <20050517195233.6028370C7607@bitsavers.org> > A scrap of paper upon which is written: REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea. The paper WILL be lost. While I don't agree with the complexity Sellam has come up with whatever you do needs to have that level of metadata in the file itself. The specific nasty example of this are the hundreds of Whirlwind paper tapes the Computer Museum has. They are indexed with a part number. They don't appear to have the index for these numbers. From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 15:07:54 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:07:54 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> Message-ID: <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> From: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 2:40 PM > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> No offense to anyone who may be part of the project, but that's a pipe >> dream. I think a better goal is to create conversion utilities that >> perform cross-conversion to/from FutureKeep format, as that is much more >> realistic. > > I completely agree. Lessons from the past are simple to grok. > There is no complex data standard and certainly no media that has > survived long enough to be considered permanent. > > My bias is towards the simple; at least then when it's > incompatible you have less raw data, and less-ambiguous work (you > hope). > > The more the payload data is encumbered with organization, > formatting, compression, interpretation, etc the harder it is. > > There's no universal approach, but if we're talking about mainly > floppies, a simple sector dump (note 1) with a hand-written > description of the organization would probably suffice. > > > An example: > > * a byte stream copy (note 1) of the diskette image, say 256256 > 8-bit-bytes long. Even printed on paper. Who knows what OCR will > be like in 20 years? > > * A scrap of paper upon which is written: > "Copied from a Shugart 801, 8", single-sided, soft-sectored, > WD1771 FM format. CP/M-80. 128 byte sectors, 26 spt, 77 > tracks." > > > Dumb. Simple. Repeatable. Portable as anything will be after 1, 5, > 10, 20 years. > > > > > NOTE 1: you can either rely on a byte today being a byte tomorrow, > or define a mapping that is unambiguous, such as a description of > the local file system's byte ordering, or use a text > representation of the numbers (disk as a string) with a Rosetta > Stone for ASCII, or define as decimal, etc. > > Cruder is better. A representation of the diskette contents > consisting of: > > 0: 0 > 1: 255 > 2: 47 > ... > 256253: 229 > 256253: 229 > 256255: 229 > > with the prose description above is more than enough to simply > recreate the diskette, whatever that means. One big problem with staight dumps of data is that often the media is not homogenous. Cromemco requires that the first track of the floppy disk be written in FM but the other tracks can be MFM. NorthStar allows complete mixture of FM & MFM on a single disk. Jade requires the first track of bootable disks be MFM but the rest can be FM. Commodore 1541 has different number of sectors for different tracks. Some meta information is needed but as stated simply good written info may be enough. I like and prefer media images as straight data dumps but I want the formatting information of the original media somewhere. I even want data from media that is incomplete or has errors, also documented. In the past I've done cut and paste reconstruction of data from damaged originals. As for corrupted media bit dumps (including formatting bits not normally saved in data dumps) can be a godsend, it may be possible to reconstruct corrupted data streams by bit shifting. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From hachti at hachti.de Tue May 17 15:25:57 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:25:57 +0200 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <20050517124058.L850@localhost> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> <20050517124058.L850@localhost> Message-ID: <428A5355.9080608@hachti.de> > If you have a keyboard and one line of upper case text, how about > the old ANIMALS game? It's reasonably "interactive" for something > that codes up in very little assembly language. 16K is plenty of > memory for it. I have text. And I have a keyboard - on the ASR33, half duplex circuit ...but what is ANIMALS? From tomj at wps.com Tue May 17 15:26:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517195233.6028370C7607@bitsavers.org> References: <20050517195233.6028370C7607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050517131236.A850@localhost> On Tue, 17 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: >> A scrap of paper upon which is written: > > REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea. > > The paper WILL be lost. I was attempting to be faintly poetic; I meant only that the meta-data doesn't need to be overdetermined. For a floppy archive, for example, a tabular table would contain most of it, with comments on oddities. Stored on a computer as a text file, for example, but I don't totally discount paper copies. > While I don't agree with the complexity Sellam has come up with > whatever you do needs to have that level of metadata in the file > itself. Here we slightly diverge in that I would like to see them separate but highly correlatable. I understand the desire to have the data and metadata in one place, but all of the mechanisms to do so are ephemeral. Tar, maybe less so. And even with that, non-technical organization techniques used in a consistent way, eg. a TAR with a directory containing two files (dumb example) DATA and METADATA, and the TAR file having the same name as the directory inside it, that sort of excessive, trivial and brutal redundancy. > The specific nasty example of this are the hundreds of Whirlwind > paper tapes the Computer Museum has. They are indexed with a part > number. They don't appear to have the index for these numbers. Ugh. But this is an excellent example: it's not a problem of portability of data or metadata, really. But if the tapes could magically be turned into character streams [in the originals leading and trailing NULs were generally ignored] I imagine the tapes are delicate, cracked/torn, etc) and the the index number recorded as metadata (and maybe a photo of the tape leader, we all know how crucial those hand-written notes on tape leaders are!!) you at least have staved off lossage. Assuming the new data can be read in 10, 20 years... And the scribbles-on-tape-leader thing points out the futility of nerdly computer approaches to archiving; it's not a computer problem. Teledisk version 99 or FutureIncompatibleData won't solve obtaining and preserving data that's not electronically readable in the first place. On my 100 or so 8" floppies the sticky, fading inked label contains utterly crucial data, and has to be hand transcribed. As a(n increasingly ex-) nerd, I increasingly run into the fact that few real problems are solved with computers. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue May 17 15:37:01 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:37:01 +0200 (MEST) Subject: help sought in Seattle WA/Vancouver BC area Message-ID: Hi all, I ened some help in the area named above.. picking up some boxes and then shipping them out. If you're willing and able to help, pse drop me a note off-list ! Thanks, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje at pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From Tim at rikers.org Tue May 17 15:42:35 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:42:35 -0500 Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428A5355.9080608@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> <20050517124058.L850@localhost> <428A5355.9080608@hachti.de> Message-ID: <428A573B.9000407@Rikers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> If you have a keyboard and one line of upper case text, how about >> the old ANIMALS game? It's reasonably "interactive" for something >> that codes up in very little assembly language. 16K is plenty of >> memory for it. > > I have text. And I have a keyboard - on the ASR33, half duplex circuit > ...but what is ANIMALS? Something like: http://www.smart.net/~dsb/Animals/ perhaps? -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From spedraja at ono.com Tue May 17 15:48:36 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:48:36 +0200 Subject: VT220 References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org><20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> Hello. I am playing with one VT220 plugged to the serial port of one Pentium 4 laptop. I have Cygwin installed, with Init and getty started, and the serial port defined with VT200 and 9600 bauds, and I want to open one session under Cygwin from the VT220. Of course something happens under Cygwin, because every "enter" opens a new login in the ps list under Cygwin. But nothing appears in the VT220 screen... With this previous explain, the question for gurus is: Would I need one DEC cable to plug the VT220 (by the way, 25 pin interface) in the Laptop Serial `port (9 pin port) ? Or can I use a normal serial cable ? Thanks and Regards Sergio From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue May 17 15:51:51 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:51:51 -0500 Subject: VT220 In-Reply-To: <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org><20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <1116363111.28160.20.camel@wombat> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 22:48 +0200, SP wrote: > Hello. I am playing with one VT220 plugged to the serial port of one Pentium > 4 laptop. I have Cygwin installed, with Init and getty started, and the > serial port defined with VT200 and 9600 bauds, and I want to open one > session under Cygwin from the VT220. Of course something happens under > Cygwin, because every "enter" opens a new login in the ps list under Cygwin. > But nothing appears in the VT220 screen... > > With this previous explain, the question for gurus is: Would I need one DEC > cable to plug the VT220 (by the way, 25 pin interface) in the Laptop Serial > `port (9 pin port) ? Or can I use a normal serial cable ? > Normal serial cable will work -- but you'll need a null modem in between there. Brian From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 17 15:54:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:54:34 -0400 Subject: VT220 References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <17034.23050.836388.833128@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "SP" == SP writes: SP> Hello. I am playing with one VT220 plugged to the serial port of SP> one Pentium 4 laptop. I have Cygwin installed, with Init and SP> getty started, and the serial port defined with VT200 and 9600 SP> bauds, and I want to open one session under Cygwin from the SP> VT220. Of course something happens under Cygwin, because every SP> "enter" opens a new login in the ps list under Cygwin. But SP> nothing appears in the VT220 screen... SP> With this previous explain, the question for gurus is: Would I SP> need one DEC cable to plug the VT220 (by the way, 25 pin SP> interface) in the Laptop Serial `port (9 pin port) ? Or can I use SP> a normal serial cable ? A plain old 25 to 9 Null Modem cable should work. It sounds like you have that, because you see something happening at the host end. There may be a flow control mismatch. If your PC serial port is set up to use RTS/CTS flow control, that would account for no output showing up. I forgot if the VT220 supports that flavor of flow control. Look through the Setup. If not, change the PC settings to "no flow control" (or better yet, XON/XOFF, if that's available). paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 16:04:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:04:38 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 15:07 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I like and prefer media images as straight data dumps but I want the > formatting information of the original media somewhere. I even want data > from media that is incomplete or has errors, also documented. Yep, me too. From when we were bashing around ideas about this though a few months back it seems that's a minority viewpoint; most people want data embedded in the metadata. For hard drive images I zero-pad any bad data but also include metadata in a seperate file - including disk geometry, which blocks are bad, resulting dump checksum, timestamp etc. along with anything else that might be particularly useful. For floppy images things would be significantly more complex though (due to factors as mentioned - variant sectors/track, different encoding for different tracks etc.) The idea behind futurekeep though was to make the metadata highly structured and in a similar vein to HTML in that clients could handle as much of the data as needed (eg. someone not dealing with variable bit rate images wouldn't need a decoder that could handle them). Ideally it'd be human-readable too (after a fashion) - e.g. XML - so that the data could be reconstructed into a disk image "by hand" even if some whizzy util to do it wasn't present. (understanding it at a file level is obviously outside the scope) That doesn't seem *too* much to ask; basic metadata can be created for existing images without a lot of hassle *if desired*. To me such a format's more useful for future image creation though, particularly in the case of less-common systems; the popular machines are likely to be covered by their own archive formats already and the following large enough that lack of data is not (yet) a problem. Rather than messing around with proprietary image formats for those, or formats that aren't particularly descriptive, it'd be nice to start from day 1 using something that allows us to capture all the useful stuff that goes along with the raw data. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 16:22:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505172122.OAA21827@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > > >As for corrupted media bit dumps (including formatting bits not normally >saved in data dumps) can be a godsend, it may be possible to reconstruct >corrupted data streams by bit shifting. Hi I've done this for cassette tape recordings. It was Manchester encoded so I also had to invert bits as well. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 16:21:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:21:16 +0000 Subject: VT220 In-Reply-To: <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org><20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <1116364876.25633.75.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 22:48 +0200, SP wrote: > Hello. I am playing with one VT220 plugged to the serial port of one Pentium > 4 laptop. I have Cygwin installed, with Init and getty started, and the > serial port defined with VT200 and 9600 bauds, and I want to open one > session under Cygwin from the VT220. Of course something happens under > Cygwin, because every "enter" opens a new login in the ps list under Cygwin. > But nothing appears in the VT220 screen... Possible terminal emulation problem? Are you saying that you see 'login' itself in the ps each time enter is pressed? That'd seem more like a getty misconfiguration to me; makes it sound like login's getting hung up somewhere before the user's environment is set up. Never used cygwin before, but is there anything meaningful in the system logfiles? You are seeing *something* on the VT220 aren't you? (login prompt or whatever) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 16:27:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505172127.OAA21831@clulw009.amd.com> >From: aek at bitsavers.org > > >> A scrap of paper upon which is written: > >REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY bad idea. Hi I agree. I've had to recoder code from paper once. I'm sure it was all clear years ago when printed but I had to spend several hours under magnification to figure out some of it. Luckily, it was 6502 machine code. Picking the right thing was relatively easy. If it had been some type of random data, it would have been more random whan I got done with it than was intended. > >The paper WILL be lost. > >While I don't agree with the complexity Sellam has come up with >whatever you do needs to have that level of metadata in the file >itself. > >The specific nasty example of this are the hundreds of Whirlwind >paper tapes the Computer Museum has. They are indexed with a part >number. They don't appear to have the index for these numbers. > You may have hit one of the biggest nails smack on the head on this one. I believe that for archiving that indexing is a much more difficult problem than how to store the data. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 16:26:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need chain printer like font Message-ID: I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer or common line printer. Does anyone have anything like this? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 16:28:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, chris wrote: > >1. Microcomputer > > > >A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two > >microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. > >For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central > >processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated > >circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a > >single integrated circuit. > > Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 > towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply > because they are far too new? Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should perhaps be "Personal Computer". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 16:49:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <200505172149.OAA21850@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 17 May 2005, chris wrote: > >> >1. Microcomputer >> > >> >A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two >> >microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. >> >For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central >> >processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated >> >circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a >> >single integrated circuit. >> >> Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 >> towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply >> because they are far too new? > >Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we >didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should >perhaps be "Personal Computer". > Hi When I was at Intel we worked on MDS800's and Series II's. These were definitely not personal computers yet they were clearly micro computers. I think like classifying planets and asteroids. There just isn't a clean line separating the two. Most uP machines of today far exceed the capabilities of most mini's of the 70's. Having multiple processors doesn't pan out. Dwight From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Tue May 17 16:44:59 2005 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:44:59 -0700 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? Message-ID: <428A65DB.8090108@PACBELL.NET> THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, CA. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 17 16:53:33 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <20050517154942.2635D70C75A3@bitsavers.org> References: <20050517154942.2635D70C75A3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050517144950.J93958@shell.lmi.net> There have been MANY attempts to draw the lines separating those divisions that were created by marketing. They have included lines based on performance, CPU configuration, capacity, RAM configuration, price, etc. One "obsolete" definition from my time period was: A "Microcomputer" is one that you can pick up and carry. A "Minicomputer" requires a hand truck. A "Mainframe" requires a fork lift and a union moving crew. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue May 17 17:08:46 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:08:46 +0200 Subject: DECServer 200 Rackmounts Bracket Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050518000839.0372ffe0@pop.xs4all.nl> Any interest perhaps here in a bunch of DECServer 200 Rackmounts Bracket ? Part number is 74-33241-01 I have about 16 of them. Also have put some more DEC bits and bobs up on my Old Computer Market. Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 17 17:01:15 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 17, 2005 02:26:06 PM Message-ID: <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> > I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer > or common line printer. > > Does anyone have anything like this? No, but I'd be interested in either an OpenType or Postscript font for the Mac. :^) Zane From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue May 17 17:06:22 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:06:22 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> As coincidence would have it, I work at Indiana University's Digital Library Program and there was a lecture on archiving audio which hits many of the same issues that have come up here. The conclusions that they came up with for the project included: * There's no such thing as an eternal media: the data must be transportable to the latest generation of storage * Metadata should be bundled with the content * Act like you get one chance to read the media :( While this is a different context, the principle is basically the same. I've got a pile of TK50 tapes I'm backing up using the SIMH tape format, so this is relevant to that process as well. I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The container could contain these components: * content metadata - info from the disk's label/sleeve, etc * media metadata - the type of media this came from * archivist metadata - who did it, methods used, notes, etc * badblock information - 0 blocks which are actually bad. * content - a bytestream of the data I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). Emulators could use the content part of the file as-is and collectors would have enough information to recreate the original media. It would also allow for cataloging fairly easily. Brian On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 21:04 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 15:07 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > I like and prefer media images as straight data dumps but I want the > > formatting information of the original media somewhere. I even want data > > from media that is incomplete or has errors, also documented. > > Yep, me too. From when we were bashing around ideas about this though a > few months back it seems that's a minority viewpoint; most people want > data embedded in the metadata. > > For hard drive images I zero-pad any bad data but also include metadata > in a seperate file - including disk geometry, which blocks are bad, > resulting dump checksum, timestamp etc. along with anything else that > might be particularly useful. For floppy images things would be > significantly more complex though (due to factors as mentioned - variant > sectors/track, different encoding for different tracks etc.) > > The idea behind futurekeep though was to make the metadata highly > structured and in a similar vein to HTML in that clients could handle as > much of the data as needed (eg. someone not dealing with variable bit > rate images wouldn't need a decoder that could handle them). Ideally > it'd be human-readable too (after a fashion) - e.g. XML - so that the > data could be reconstructed into a disk image "by hand" even if some > whizzy util to do it wasn't present. (understanding it at a file level > is obviously outside the scope) > > That doesn't seem *too* much to ask; basic metadata can be created for > existing images without a lot of hassle *if desired*. To me such a > format's more useful for future image creation though, particularly in > the case of less-common systems; the popular machines are likely to be > covered by their own archive formats already and the following large > enough that lack of data is not (yet) a problem. Rather than messing > around with proprietary image formats for those, or formats that aren't > particularly descriptive, it'd be nice to start from day 1 using > something that allows us to capture all the useful stuff that goes along > with the raw data. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 17:03:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517112642.E850@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > An example: > > * a byte stream copy (note 1) of the diskette image, say 256256 > 8-bit-bytes long. Even printed on paper. Who knows what OCR will > be like in 20 years? > > * A scrap of paper upon which is written: > "Copied from a Shugart 801, 8", single-sided, soft-sectored, > WD1771 FM format. CP/M-80. 128 byte sectors, 26 spt, 77 > tracks." > > > Dumb. Simple. Repeatable. Portable as anything will be after 1, 5, > 10, 20 years. Until you die and your SO doesn't want to let others have access to your archive. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 17 17:09:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:09:24 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517112642.E850@localhost> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> Message-ID: <428A6B94.9060102@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > * a byte stream copy (note 1) of the diskette image, say 256256 > 8-bit-bytes long. Even printed on paper. Who knows what OCR will > be like in 20 years? > > * A scrap of paper upon which is written: > "Copied from a Shugart 801, 8", single-sided, soft-sectored, > WD1771 FM format. CP/M-80. 128 byte sectors, 26 spt, 77 > tracks." This only works if the data is consistently laid out over the entire disk. Mac disks store less sectors on the inside tracks and more on the outer ones so the scrap of paper would have to be longer. For personal computers of the 1980s, copy-protection would not work with this method since it's all over the map without consistency. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 17 17:13:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:13:15 -0500 Subject: pdp11/45 blinkyprogram? Message-ID: <000501c55b2d$9fa08400$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was sure I asked this before, and got an answer, but can't seem to find it :( Anyone have a short machine language program to blink lights on an 11/45, something I can enter via front panel to check it out? mucho appreciated :> Jay From drb at msu.edu Tue May 17 17:17:56 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:17:56 -0400 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 17 May 2005 15:01:15 PDT.) <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200505172217.j4HMHuIl006118@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer > or common line printer. Didn't HP LaserJet II printers used to have something like this when kicked into 16cpi "compressed" mode? I know that doesn't necessarily mean you can obtain it... De From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 17:20:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brian Wheeler" > ---snip--- > >I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a >collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned >tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The container could Hi tar yes, zip no!!!! Any form of compression will make recovery difficult if there is a small amount of data lost in the middle someplace. I have some disk that were nicely archived of some FIG ( Forth Interest Group ) stuff, done by a well meaning librarian, earlier. In handling, the one copy ( the other mistake ) got damaged. Now, all the bundled information is lost. Do not compress! In fact I recommend human readable forms such as HEX or octal, regardless of the media. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 17 17:23:08 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:23:08 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: <00a601c55b08$6c6a77f0$653cd7d1@randy> References: <4289B753.7070303@mdrconsult.com> <00a601c55b08$6c6a77f0$653cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <428A6ECC.6010405@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Since Don passed away I've been trying to collect boot disks, while I > have a couple of Kaypro disks I don't have the Advent ones. > > If you ever get copies please let me know, I can even write software to > copy the ROM to disk. Urrk. So this guy won't boot from a standard Kaypro II system disk at all? I picked this up from Jim Battle over the weekend (Thanks, Jim!), knowing that the Rodime drive was developing bad sectors. It *was* booting to a string of Bad Sector errors and a prompt, but we didn't have a head-park utility, and now it won't boot at all - stops at a "Boot Error". I have access to an Osborbe Executive and apparently Media Magic, and there are a couple of ARK archives on the Simtel mirrors for the Advent TurboROM. Is there anyway to generate a boot disk from that? Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 17:22:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 15:07 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > I like and prefer media images as straight data dumps but I want the > > formatting information of the original media somewhere. I even want data > > from media that is incomplete or has errors, also documented. > > Yep, me too. From when we were bashing around ideas about this though a > few months back it seems that's a minority viewpoint; most people want > data embedded in the metadata. > > For hard drive images I zero-pad any bad data but also include metadata > in a seperate file - including disk geometry, which blocks are bad, > resulting dump checksum, timestamp etc. along with anything else that > might be particularly useful. For floppy images things would be > significantly more complex though (due to factors as mentioned - variant > sectors/track, different encoding for different tracks etc.) > > The idea behind futurekeep though was to make the metadata highly > structured and in a similar vein to HTML in that clients could handle as > much of the data as needed (eg. someone not dealing with variable bit > rate images wouldn't need a decoder that could handle them). Ideally > it'd be human-readable too (after a fashion) - e.g. XML - so that the > data could be reconstructed into a disk image "by hand" even if some > whizzy util to do it wasn't present. (understanding it at a file level > is obviously outside the scope) > > That doesn't seem *too* much to ask; basic metadata can be created for > existing images without a lot of hassle *if desired*. To me such a > format's more useful for future image creation though, particularly in > the case of less-common systems; the popular machines are likely to be > covered by their own archive formats already and the following large > enough that lack of data is not (yet) a problem. Rather than messing > around with proprietary image formats for those, or formats that aren't > particularly descriptive, it'd be nice to start from day 1 using > something that allows us to capture all the useful stuff that goes along > with the raw data. Sorry to quote the entire message, but mostly what Jules said is my response. I just don't want to engage in a discussion and explain/defend the FutureKeep concept until we've progressed a bit farther with it. I've been so tied up with finishing other outstanding projects over the past several months that FutureKeep has effectively stalled, though I'm gearing up on it again. I think once people see the draft proposal of FutureKeep all fleshed out, which takes into account the ephemeral nature of digital media in general, and which incorporates philosophies which will hopefully ensure that image archives stay around for a long time, they will see the value of it and not only support but actively use it. We have some very smart people working on it. Once we get rolling again we'll want more involved. I suspect things will start to heat up again in a couple more weeks, and I will post an announcement here (and of course on the FK mailing list) once things start to roll. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 17 17:27:06 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:27:06 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: <20050517112642.E850@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517172522.0505b0a8@mail> At 05:03 PM 5/17/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Until you die and your SO doesn't want to let others have access to your >archive. No need to die. "Three moves equal one fire", Ben said. - John From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 17:24:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer > > or common line printer. > > > > Does anyone have anything like this? > > No, but I'd be interested in either an OpenType or Postscript font for the > Mac. :^) I found this one but it's not free: http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/detail.htm?pid=405925&ovmkt=JK0U0JDQ41GISCA7JS1RID2DCS -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 17:30:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:30:38 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost><001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy><1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> Message-ID: <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> From: "Brian Wheeler" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:06 PM > As coincidence would have it, I work at Indiana University's Digital > Library Program and there was a lecture on archiving audio which hits > many of the same issues that have come up here. The conclusions that > they came up with for the project included: > * There's no such thing as an eternal media: the data must be > transportable to the latest generation of storage > * Metadata should be bundled with the content > * Act like you get one chance to read the media :( > > While this is a different context, the principle is basically the same. > I've got a pile of TK50 tapes I'm backing up using the SIMH tape format, > so this is relevant to that process as well. > > I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The container could > contain these components: > * content metadata - info from the disk's label/sleeve, etc > * media metadata - the type of media this came from > * archivist metadata - who did it, methods used, notes, etc > * badblock information - 0 blocks which are actually bad. > * content - a bytestream of the data > > I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties > of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a > repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track > info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media > metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). > > Emulators could use the content part of the file as-is and collectors > would have enough information to recreate the original media. It would > also allow for cataloging fairly easily. > > Brian I disagree on a few points: Today we know what the 1541 structure is, we need enough detail to explain it to future users. The differences between FM and MFM are not as simple as a binary decision. RX02 is one example of mixed formatting, even with FM & MFM each implimentation can be fairly unique (hard vs. soft sectored, sector size, flux density, etc). Most of the exact details can be understood by using current knowledge but maybe not 50 years from now when someone is trying to understand it. One thing can be that for a given format part of the overall archive should include technical details: That is to say one example would be a site like asimov should include technical information on the apple disk interface as well as an explaination of how the dsk images are created and restored. It isn't necessary to include the details with every dsk file but withing the general archive. In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with what they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer technology. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From drb at msu.edu Tue May 17 17:31:13 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:31:13 -0400 Subject: Help collecting gear from west of Chicago Message-ID: <200505172231.j4HMVDsE006484@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, Looking for someone who can "rescue" and temporarily store a PDP-11. It's about 30 miles west of O'Hare, apparently. I won this at auction; the notification didn't arrive, and now that I'm traveling and can't do anything about it, they want the beast out of their building yesterday. The system was billed as a "TU80 tester", and consists of two standard DEC waist-high cabinets; one contains several drives which look like RL02s to my limited experience. (Also, the photo is small, from the side, etc. -- hard to see well.) The second contains what looks like a TU80 and perhaps another disk. There's one tall cabinet with stuff I can't really see well enough to guess; presumably a CPU (+?). There's also a line printer in the background, and a Decwriter. Lined up as you'd install it, this is about 10' long; cabinets are of course about 36" deep. The tall cabinet is about 72" high. Presumably it weighs a metric crapload. :-) I'm in Michigan, so it won't be too hard to eventually come rescue it. Anyone able to rescue this pronto and hold onto it for maybe a month or two? De From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 17 17:32:17 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:32:17 -0500 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517172846.04edfc38@mail> At 04:26 PM 5/17/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I need a font for Winders that looks like the output from a chain printer >or common line printer. Does anyone have anything like this? Do you have a scanned example of a real-world output you'd like to emulate? Are you hoping to emulate the perfect strike of the band's font, or something that looks like that font when it's printed on green-bar-y paper with a worn ribbon? Or do you mean a dot-matrix? You don't have a spare line printer you can drive directly from the Windows machine? :-) For ASR-33, we've used "teleprinter" from http://hreflinks.com/fon4page.htm but there are gobs of sorta-free fonts out there, of course. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 17:34:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:34:25 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> Message-ID: <1116369265.25633.93.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 17:06 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > As coincidence would have it, I work at Indiana University's Digital > Library Program and there was a lecture on archiving audio which hits > many of the same issues that have come up here. The conclusions that > they came up with for the project included: > * There's no such thing as an eternal media: the data must be > transportable to the latest generation of storage Yep, it's recognised the need to periodically refresh data onto whatever the current favourite media type is. The nice thing about a structured and essentially human-readable metadata format is that there's a good chance that it can be transferred as-is to a new type of media without any reprocessing. > * Metadata should be bundled with the content Just to clarify; do you mean bundled alongside content or interspersed with? (From the rest of your message I believe you mean the former, which happens to be my view too...) > * Act like you get one chance to read the media :( Yep. Although sometimes multiple reads of media and a combination of the resulting data can actually improve the ability to reconstruct it :) > I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The only danger there is that the two become separated over time, but in my mind it's an acceptable risk. It's sort of like a librarian losing a few volumes from a set of encyclopedia I suppose - something that you'd have to be really careless to do. > I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties > of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a > repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track > info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media > metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). Now risk of seperation there might well be a problem if there's a single copy of some metatdata for more than one disk image. I'd say that each 'bundle' forming a disk image (raw data + metadata) needs to totally describe that disk... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 17:43:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:43:03 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 15:20 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Brian Wheeler" > > > ---snip--- > > > >I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > >collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > >tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The container could > > Hi > tar yes, zip no!!!! Any form of compression will make recovery > difficult if there is a small amount of data lost in the middle > someplace. I went through this on one of the Acorn newsgroups recently (habitually I use tar over zip for just the reason you stated). Someone pointed out that zip is capable of a 'no compression' format and acting as a pure archive. I did a few tests trying to mangle such an archive with a hex editor, and indeed (at least on Linux) the zip decompression util was able to restore past the damaged part of the archive and detect the corrupt data. So, question is, are zips with no compression portable? It certainly seems that DOS, Linux, and Acorn systems can handle them. No idea about Winzip or other flavours though. If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than can handle tar files... cheers Jules From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 17 17:48:21 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:48:21 -0400 Subject: Another part data sheet request In-Reply-To: <200505171702.KAA21748@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505171702.KAA21748@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <428A74B5.7040400@splab.cas.neu.edu> The June 1984 Storage Management Products Handbook from WD shows them, but without the V in the code. If these are correct, I'll send more info offline: 1100-01 Serial /parallel converter, 20 pin, Vss on 10, Vcc on 20 1100-03 AM detector, 20 pin, Vss on 10, Vcc on 20 1100-04 CRC Generator/checker, 20 pin, Vss on 10, Vcc on 20 1100-05 parallel/serial converter, ditto, 1100-12 improved MFM generator, ditto. Joe Heck Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi All > Here is another request. I'm looking for at least the > pinouts for the following parts made by Western Digital > ( I think ): > > WD1100V-01 > WD1100V-03 > WD1100V-04 > WD1100V-05 > WD1100V-12 > > These have various functions related to disk I/O. > > Thanks > Dwight > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 17 17:49:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 17, 2005 03:24:55 PM Message-ID: <200505172249.j4HMnHu1008253@onyx.spiritone.com> > I found this one but it's not free: > > http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/detail.htm?pid=405925&ovmkt=JK0U0JDQ41GISCA7JS1RID2DCS Ouch, anything but. IIRC, that's more expensive than your typical Adobe OpenType font! Here is a thought on finding fonts that might work good for you, take a look at Fonts for "Pen & Paper" Role playing games. Especially games such as "Delta Green" or "D20 Modern". At least I don't think you mind True Type fonts, which is what you'd most likely turn up. Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 17:50:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505172250.PAA21875@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > >In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with what >they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, >headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer technology. > Hi I could. Junk today has more useable parts than the junk they had then. Making a AM radio is quite easy today. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 17 17:57:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:57:12 -0400 Subject: FutureKeep Info (Was: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517185021.03c75c90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >We have some very smart people working on it. And so am I, so anyone else who shows up, don't worry - you won't look like the Village Idiot. I fill that slot nicely. ;-) > Once we get rolling again >we'll want more involved. I suspect things will start to heat up again in >a couple more weeks, and I will post an announcement here (and of course >on the FK mailing list) once things start to roll. Which, of course, is still up and running -- but rather quiet nowadays. As a reminder, to subscribe, send an empty email to: ccarchive-subscribe at list.30below.com and reply to the confirmation message. It's just that simple! Archives are here: http://ccarchive.30below.com/ There's even a handy "Subscribe" link *right thar on the page!* Now Just how handy is that????? A bargain at half the price! Call now and you get this free set of Ginzu Knives! (OK, not really.) Sellam: Should I change the listname to futurekeep instead of ccarchive? Oh, and now that VCF-MW is late July, I *might* be able to attend. Don't wanna make any promises yet, but the wife might go for it. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 18:03:23 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:03:23 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than can handle tar files... -- Writing a program to unpack a tar archive is not difficult. The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the end. Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? The file headers in a tar archive appear in front of each file. It is generally possible to resync after errors in the decoding stream. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 17 18:06:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <200505172250.PAA21875@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505172250.PAA21875@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050517160154.P93958@shell.lmi.net> > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with what > >they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, > >headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer technology. ^^^^^^^ what kinds of wars litter the battlefields with spare headsets? On Tue, 17 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I could. Junk today has more useable parts than the > junk they had then. Making a AM radio is quite easy today. > Dwight You are NOT typical of current society (that is a compliment, not an insult) How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of the bulb contacts to that. etc. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 17 17:52:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:52:49 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <20050517144950.J93958@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050517154942.2635D70C75A3@bitsavers.org> <20050517154942.2635D70C75A3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050517185249.0097c440@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:53 PM 5/17/05 -0700, Fred wrote: >There have been MANY attempts to draw the lines separating those divisions >that were created by marketing. They have included lines based on >performance, CPU configuration, capacity, RAM configuration, price, etc. > >One "obsolete" definition from my time period was: >A "Microcomputer" is one that you can pick up and carry. >A "Minicomputer" requires a hand truck. >A "Mainframe" requires a fork lift and a union moving crew. > Now they've all taken a step down. A microcomputer is something you wear (cell phone, PDA, calculator watch, etc) A minicomputer can be carried comfortably in one hand (Palmtop up to laptop) A mainframe occupies the space of a large book! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 17 17:47:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:47:48 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050517184748.009cc940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:28 PM 5/17/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Tue, 17 May 2005, chris wrote: > >> >1. Microcomputer >> > >> >A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two >> >microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. >> >For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central >> >processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated >> >circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a >> >single integrated circuit. >> >> Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 >> towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply >> because they are far too new? > >Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we >didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should >perhaps be "Personal Computer". Even that deinition is questionable when applications are stored on a remote "server". Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 17 18:09:48 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:09:48 -0400 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: References: <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517190620.03cad690@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 17 May 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer > > > or common line printer. > > > > > > Does anyone have anything like this? > > > > No, but I'd be interested in either an OpenType or Postscript font for the > > Mac. :^) > >I found this one but it's not free: > >http://www.fonts.com/FindFonts/detail.htm?pid=405925&ovmkt=JK0U0JDQ41GISCA7JS1RID2DCS I'm sure I have some chain-printer output from an IBM chain printer that had a fairly new ribbon from when I worked at EDS... I saved most of my JCL listings from my training there. The chain printer I had access to may have been uppercase only, tho. I can scan some in if anyone needs, but I know nothing about making fonts... (and $42 for one typeface seems a *bit* excessive... 8-O ) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 18:12:06 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:12:06 -0700 Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> > Yep, it's recognised the need to periodically refresh data onto > whatever the current favourite media type is. It is also MUCH faster to do this than to collect the data in the first place, and if you don't overwrite the thing you copied from you have another backup (for a while..) You do need to be mindful of purging copies of bad files of which there are other known good copies, and you need to make sure that the verified files have some error detection/correction mechanism to detect silient copy corruption (failures in disc write caches, etc.) From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 17 18:21:55 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:21:55 -0400 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517191057.051e7c88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over >tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than >can handle tar files... As DJB would say, "Profile, don't speculate." Almost all .zip utilities written in the last 4-5 years support tar (and gzip tar) files flawlessly. I'm speculating to the fact that you're talking Win32 boxen, as you said "more systems these days" and Wintel boxen are "most boxen" these days. Surely MacOSX can handle tar files, eh? ;-) That and the fact that tar's been around nearly forever and is open-source, that I would think one would have a better chance of getting a tar utility on a system without tar, than getting a zip utility on a system that had no zip. Veering offtopically towards FutureKeep territory, I still think that the spec should be non-compressed, and at least somewhat human-readable. (Or at least human-typeable if one needed to type in a small disk image manually[1]). If you wanna make it smaller, you can compress it yourself with any utility you choose. Disk storage is cheap nowadays... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Why would one want to type a disk image in by hand? For some machines, a blank, basic boot image would be small enough to type in, so one could print out the FutureKeep file and keep it in a drawer, just in case every piece of digital media it was kept on went bad. If every piece == 1, it's not exactly a remote possibility... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 18:24:17 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:24:17 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <200505172250.PAA21875@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002201c55b37$8f8f0190$8892d6d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:50 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" >> >> >>In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with >>what >>they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, >>headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer technology. >> > Hi > I could. Junk today has more useable parts than the > junk they had then. Making a AM radio is quite easy today. > Dwight My point is that while you and I can how many others can? The same applies to certain computer technology. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 17 18:33:53 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:33:53 -0400 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517172846.04edfc38@mail> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517193210.050997c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 04:26 PM 5/17/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >I need a font for Winders that looks like the output from a chain printer > >or common line printer. Does anyone have anything like this? > >Do you have a scanned example of a real-world output you'd like >to emulate? Are you hoping to emulate the perfect strike of the >band's font, or something that looks like that font when it's >printed on green-bar-y paper with a worn ribbon? Or do you mean >a dot-matrix? You don't have a spare line printer you can drive >directly from the Windows machine? :-) > >For ASR-33, we've used "teleprinter" from http://hreflinks.com/fon4page.htm >but there are gobs of sorta-free fonts out there, of course. Linenstroke on page 3 http://hreflinks.com/fon3page.htm might do, too. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 17 18:35:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:35:38 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <200505172250.PAA21875@clulw009.amd.com> <20050517160154.P93958@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002b01c55b39$25432cb0$8892d6d1@randy> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 6:06 PM >> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" >> >In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with >> >what >> >they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, >> >headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer >> >technology. > ^^^^^^^ > what kinds of wars litter the battlefields with spare headsets? > > On Tue, 17 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi >> I could. Junk today has more useable parts than the >> junk they had then. Making a AM radio is quite easy today. >> Dwight > > You are NOT typical of current society (that is a compliment, not an > insult) > > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of > the bulb contacts to that. etc. Every battlefield since WWI has had "spare headsets" laying around, usually from damaged radios. When a field radio was damaged in a firefight it was abandoned, carrying around a dead radio while bullets are flying doesn't make any sense. Later it was extremely common for soldiers with the right knowledge to pick up the headset and build AM receivers, with spares they passed them on to buddies to use. WWII field radios to too bulky for the average GI to carry around compared to just enough material to make a simple AM receiver. For the record they were not used for tactical use just to listen to music etc while sitting in foxholes. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 17 18:39:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> While the goal is certainly simple (to be able to generate duplicates of odd diskettes without requiring human manual intervention), there does not exist a method of describing a disk format in a practical way, that does not require SOME manual handling of exceptions. Although the number of exceptions is theoretically finite, for ANY proposed specification, one or more of us can come up with an exception. Therefore, it remains necessary to retain a "comment" field to be able to specify additional "weirdities", especially if the spec is to be opened up enough to deal with "copy protected" disks. OTOH, it would be gross overkill to store the complete bitstream without clock separation of every track on disks that could be defined as "5.25 DSDD 48TPI WD/IBM 5SPT 1024BPS, no known oddities", just because SOME (a few thousand) disk formats DO have strange things to deal with. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Some disk formats: http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 18:37:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116369265.25633.93.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > > collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > > tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. > > The only danger there is that the two become separated over time, but in > my mind it's an acceptable risk. It's sort of like a librarian losing a > few volumes from a set of encyclopedia I suppose - something that you'd > have to be really careless to do. I have in the past and still completely disagree with this. If the image is structured, including the metadata is naturally obvious and unobstrusive to the data stream. Having separate metadata invites future error. > > I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties > > of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a > > repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track > > info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media > > metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). > > Now risk of seperation there might well be a problem if there's a single > copy of some metatdata for more than one disk image. I'd say that each > 'bundle' forming a disk image (raw data + metadata) needs to totally > describe that disk... Correct, and the descriptive metadata to describe the attributes of a particular medium would take up less than 1K characters, in most cases FAR less. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From KParker at workcover.com Tue May 17 18:41:06 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:11:06 +0930 Subject: OT: Attention Sellam Ismail Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BF32@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Apologies for the OT. Hi Sellam. You contacted me off list and I've tried to reply a few times to vcf at siconic.com but its bouncing with Remote host not found. Either the address is wrong, the Internet has gone pear shaped (most likely explanation) or your mail server is ??? ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 18:41:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517160154.P93958@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of > the bulb contacts to that. etc. Wow, comedy for nerds. I have to see that. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 18:42:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050517184748.009cc940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 > >> towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply > >> because they are far too new? > > > >Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we > >didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should > >perhaps be "Personal Computer". > > Even that deinition is questionable when applications are stored on a > remote "server". Does the thing sitting in front of you "compute"? Are you the only one using it at any one time? If so, I'd call that a Personal Computer ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 18:44:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:44:43 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 16:03 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > can handle tar files... > > -- > > Writing a program to unpack a tar archive is not difficult. Sure - but more current systems typically have zip tools on them than tar IMHO... my thought was more one of how likely someone else would be of being able to handle the archive with whatever they had to hand. > The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the end. > Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? Ahh, no not at the time. I've just tried it now though and it seems remarkably good at recovering from corruption in the TOC area. Actually, looking at the zip file it appears to have something resembling a file header before each file in the archive as well as the TOC at the end. Whether that's always the case or some sort of optional extra, I don't know. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 18:43:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > You do need to be mindful of purging copies of bad files of which there > are other known good copies, and you need to make sure that the verified > files have some error detection/correction mechanism to detect silient > copy corruption (failures in disc write caches, etc.) A feature design into the draft FK spec. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 17 19:00:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505180000.RAA21898@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >Every battlefield since WWI has had "spare headsets" laying around, usually >from damaged radios. > > Hi Even so, they had relays then. One can make a useable head set with a bar magnet, coil from a relay and a tin can. ( Add something to stick things together with. There are too many possibilities here to even speculate! ) Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 18:58:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > While the goal is certainly simple (to be able to generate duplicates > of odd diskettes without requiring human manual intervention), there > does not exist a method of describing a disk format in a practical way, > that does not require SOME manual handling of exceptions. > > Although the number of exceptions is theoretically finite, > for ANY proposed specification, one or more of us can come > up with an exception. Therefore, it remains necessary to > retain a "comment" field to be able to specify additional > "weirdities", especially if the spec is to be opened up > enough to deal with "copy protected" disks. Not only will FK allow comments, it should also allow exceptions to be specified in a manner that can be algorithmically processed. > OTOH, it would be gross overkill to store the complete bitstream > without clock separation of every track on disks that could be > defined as "5.25 DSDD 48TPI WD/IBM 5SPT 1024BPS, no known oddities", > just because SOME (a few thousand) disk formats DO have strange > things to deal with. Right, and the FK spec allows imaging at different levels (from flux transitions to fully interpreted filesystems). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 17 19:00:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Attention Sellam Ismail In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BF32@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Apologies for the OT. > > Hi Sellam. You contacted me off list and I've tried to reply a few times > to vcf at siconic.com but its bouncing with Remote host not found. > > Either the address is wrong, the Internet has gone pear shaped (most > likely explanation) or your mail server is ??? Weird. I've been receiving mail all day. Try instead. It resolves to the same IP address but maybe something along the route between you and I is funged with regards to DNS. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Tue May 17 19:05:52 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:05:52 -0400 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? References: <428A65DB.8090108@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: <090501c55b3d$5b5ecf80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> From: BOB LAAG > THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM > TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON > THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. From allain at panix.com Tue May 17 19:11:49 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:11:49 -0400 Subject: Need chain printer like font References: Message-ID: <094101c55b3e$30907280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Is TrueType an open format at all? I have been interested in building my own fonts for decades at this point. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 19:11:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:11:48 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1116375108.25633.119.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 16:39 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > While the goal is certainly simple (to be able to generate duplicates > of odd diskettes without requiring human manual intervention), there > does not exist a method of describing a disk format in a practical way, > that does not require SOME manual handling of exceptions. > > Although the number of exceptions is theoretically finite, > for ANY proposed specification, one or more of us can come > up with an exception. Therefore, it remains necessary to > retain a "comment" field to be able to specify additional > "weirdities", especially if the spec is to be opened up > enough to deal with "copy protected" disks. Bah, you just need each archive to contain embedded Java source that can decode the archive's contents... ;-) There should be some set of standard fields that are common to all disks though (surfaces and tracks being two that spring to mind), then there'll be another set that's specific to a particular type of disk. If it's all semantic data as part of the metadata section then it doesn't matter so much. Utils will be able to handle a subset of all possible formats (which I suppose is infinite), but enough semantic data should be present to enable a human to deduce the format from the data and write a parser if needs be. I wouldn't expect we need to go as far as including the spec for the format within the data itself, but that's kind of nice too (IMHO storage costs being what they are, it doesn't matter so much if a 160KB floppy image grows another 10-20KB of ASCII metadata / spec really) It's getting late here though, so I'm probably talking more crap than usual :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 19:14:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:14:45 +0000 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <090501c55b3d$5b5ecf80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <428A65DB.8090108@PACBELL.NET> <090501c55b3d$5b5ecf80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1116375285.25633.121.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 20:05 -0400, John Allain wrote: > From: BOB LAAG > > THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM > > TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON > > THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, > > Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. You forgot to tell them to keep it held down ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 17 19:18:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:18:57 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116375537.25648.126.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 16:43 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 17 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > > You do need to be mindful of purging copies of bad files of which there > > are other known good copies, and you need to make sure that the verified > > files have some error detection/correction mechanism to detect silient > > copy corruption (failures in disc write caches, etc.) > > A feature design into the draft FK spec. Last random thought before bed... Does it make sense to split the spec to handle this? One that dictates how the metadata and raw data are stored that make up an image, and another that then defines how to wrap all of this in a layer that's properly checksummed etc.? Blah... I know I'm going to have a bazillion messages to read by morning! cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:01:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:01:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: 'goto" gone from computer languages or is it! In-Reply-To: <20050516201104.5f1ce73d.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 16, 5 08:11:04 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:54:34 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Hey, WTF, over?! I thought you guys were all programmers? > > > > Hey, I've never claimed to be a programmer. A hardware hacker, maybe, > > but not a programmer... > > > > -tony > > Steve Ciarcia used to say his favorite 'programming language' was > solder. I remember that... Actually, I have modified a program using a soldering iron. I have the M792 diode matrix boot ROM in my PDP11/45. Actually I have 2 of them, one contain the paper tape bootstrap, the other the mass storage device bootstrap. The latter will boot the RK05 (which i have), amongst other devices -- to use it, you load 773100 (start address of the boot ROM) into the address register, then put the CSR address for the selected device on the switches, then START. Anyway there were a few unused locations at the end of the ROM, so I soldered in the appropriate diodes to load the right register with the RK11 CSR address and jump to the right point in the ROM. The result is that I can leave the address of the first of those instructions on the swtiches, then just hit LD ADDR and START to boot the RK05. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:08:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:08:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Update and Pictures: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050516223341.00a32720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 16, 5 10:33:41 pm Message-ID: > I checked the HP 9845B and it's absolutely dead. The fan doesn't even > run. However the fault should be easy enough to locate. It's odd though, Be warned that thr 9845 PSU is _very_ complicated, even worse than the PDP11/44 PSU (!). Anyway, the input circuit isn't too bad. There's a mains-frequency transformer (the laminated-core one on the metal bracket) that has 2 primary windings. They're in series for 230V, in paralell for 115V. The output of this transformer provides the startup supply. There's also the conventional bridge/doubler circuit with the 2 massive capacitors in the middle of the PSU mainboard to supply 350V DC to the choppers Anyway, the fans are connected in parallel with the startup transformer primaries. So on 115V they're essentially connected across the mains. There is a fuse at the back (10A IIRC for 115V) that I'd check first, otherwise look at the wiring on the back panel, the barrier strip on the side of the PSU casing (be warned that the screws that hold the cover over that go into loose nuts inside the PSU casing, so pull the PSU module first), etc. This is one of the not-too-complicated parts of the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:36:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:36:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050517140821.GB34506@outpost.timeguy.com> from "Bill Richman" at May 17, 5 09:08:21 am Message-ID: Please format your text to somwhere between 72 and 80 columns... > > I'm trying to help a friend locate a replacement tape drive wheel for > an HP 9144 tape drive. He says that there's a hard roller inside the > tape cartridge, and there's a softer (rubber?) roller in the drive that > pushes against it, pulling the tape along. Apparently the softer > rollers tend to turn to "goo" after many years. He's been working to > recover some archived files from the beginnings of the company he works > for, mostly for historical interest, and his last tape drive recently > succumbed to the "goo" problem. Anyone have any replacement rollers > that would be in any better shape, or any suggestions for alternatives? > Thanks! This is a well-known problem with HP tape drives (and magnetic card readers) and, indeed, with such devices more genreally. I've had some success replacing the roller with a suitable-size silicone rubber O-ring, but often you have to turn a groove into the original metal hub, and you may even need to make a new hub so you can make a deep enough groove for the O-ring to stay in place. This gets difficult if the hub also carries a tachometer disk or similar. Silicone rubber tubing works well if you can find it of the right size and wall thickness. It should just fit on the original hub once you've cleaned the gunge off. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:42:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:42:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <0IGN00B4W4U4O834@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 17, 5 11:40:04 am Message-ID: > >>A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two > >>microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. > >>For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central > >>processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated > >>circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a > >>single integrated circuit. > > > >Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 > >towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply > >because they are far too new? > > > >-chris > > > > It's alrady that bad. > > The average Pentium micro (PC) has not less than three often more cpus. > For example: > > CPU pentium S at 100mhz > Keybord interface 8042 micro > Keyboard (has one of several micros) > CDrom (at lest one micro) > IDE disks (one sometimes two micros) > Enhanced graphics card (Micro, esp if MP3 or???) My first thought on reading Sellam's definition was 'hey, that means the PC/AT is a mini, it's got the 80286 + an 8042 keyboard interface + an 8048 in the keyboard'. Then I read it again and realised he'd said 'for general purpose programming', which rules out the microcontrollers in the keyboard, keyboard interface, drives, etc. Although arguably the graphics processor does count. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:16:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:16:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x i8008/Sage II/2x Grid/TI In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050516215612.02cfcfd8@mail.netsync.net> from "Christian R. Fandt" at May 16, 5 10:37:32 pm Message-ID: > > Upon the date 19:29 16-05-05, Tony Duell said something like: > > > Tony, the HP250 CPU is said to be the same as the 9845* except for > > > different microcode. Reference this website if you can: > > > http://www.hp-eloquence.com/history/history.html > > > >YEs, but _which_ 9845 processor? > > I know little about the 9845 hardware at present. I wish I had my own 9845 > but haven't found an intact one yet. I also know little about it, even though I've been doing battle with one.... > > Based on that description I would bet that whomever stated the 250 CPU was > the same, except for ucode, had intended the comparison to be to the LPU > which is implied above to be equivalent to the "main" processor (vs the I/O > processor which has less responsibility for calculations, logic processing, > program control, etc.). AFAIKL the 2 processors in the 9845 are actually very similar, even though the PPU has the I/O bus hung off it, and the LPU doesn't. If anyone has a 9845 _without the high speed LPU option_, it might be worth pulling the LPU board (the far right board in the right hand cardcage) and looking at any numbers on the bottom of the processor bybrid. IIRC the PPU is a 5061-3001 in my machine. Being a hardware guy, I was wondering if the HP250 used a custom HP module, or if it was a few boards of TTL and bitslice. If the latter, it would be itneresting to see how the schematics compare with those for the 9845 high-speed LPU. The LPU cotnrol board in my 9845 could take 4K PROMs in place of the 2K ones (that's what the soldered jumper link is for), BTW, So it would be possible to use these boards to make a processor with 4K of microcode. [...] > > > I feel this may give you something to work with as you reverse engineer > > the > > I stand by my statement :-) Just a little enlightenment sooner is better > than having to travel through darkness longer :-) On the other hand, if the processors are different -- even if the pinout is different -- it could be very confusing if I'm trying to work from the 'wrong' diagrams. > > > >FWIW, a reverse-engineered 9825/9831 schematic is on the HPCC schematics > >CD-ROM (along with similar diagrams for the 9100B, 9810, 9830, 9815, some > >late rmachines, and most of the handhelds) > > Hmm, great (re: 9825 schema)! I will track down that CDROM again and buy > it. I have a link stored somewhere. Try contacting Dave Colver (secretary at hpcc.org). IIRC the CD-ROM costs \pounds 15.00, contains over 50 schematcs, and HPCC will take Paypal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:44:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:44:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <20050517154942.2635D70C75A3@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at May 17, 5 08:49:42 am Message-ID: > The term minicomputer originated in the early 70s to classifly a type > of sub $50000 computer that could be purchased by departments (as opposed > to having to go though corporate DP approval) As a data point, the Philips P850 (1971-ish) actually claims to be a 'minicomputer' on the front panel. It's one of the few series of machines that does IMHO -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:24:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:24:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <1ab.38a69db4.2fbadfc3@aol.com> from "Saquinn624@aol.com" at May 17, 5 01:48:51 am Message-ID: > > One thing that I have been wondering for a while is what the current > definition of minicomputer is. > It used to be contrasted with microcomputers, the telling difference being a > multichip processor implementation versus a single-chip microprocessor [if so, > are the POWER1 and POWER2 processors > minicomputer processors?] but now, with microprocessors being used in I used to think of a micro as having a processor that was either a single chip _or a chipset that was only used to make that processor_. That means the 11/03 amd 11/23 are micros, soe are the the POWER1 and POWER2, but things like the 11/45, VAX 11/730, PERQ 1, rtc are minis because the CPU is bullt from TTL, bitslice chips, etc that are used for many things other than making that particular processor. > mainframes (and even on-topic mainframes) is this distinction meaningless [i.e. > should the designation "microcomputer" in its size/power context be replaced with > something else?] and, if so, does the [whatever micro becomes]/mini/mainframe > become a question of mass (>700 lbs mainframe, >100 lbs mini, <100 lbs [???]), > or history (the HP3000 started life as a mini, therefore the spectrum models > continue as minis . . .), or does the venerable minicomputer cease to exist? > any other ideas? 'If you've lost your logic probe inside it, it's a micro. If you've lost your oscilloscope inside it, it's a mini. If you've lost yourself inside it, it's a mainframe' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 18:29:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:29:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pathology or hobby? In-Reply-To: from "=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=" at May 17, 5 10:50:53 am Message-ID: > This are good points. I am a packrat myself, without having any > inheritance to blame it on. I suspect I'm mostly a packrat too, although I do try to share information, and I've made smoe provision for the collection to go to good homes if I get burried 'face down, 9 edge first' > > I have a small collection of old cameras, all of which can (or at least > could, if I made film to fit them) be used. Ah, I have a large collection of old cameras, some working, others in need of repair, which of course I do myself (what, you didn't think I just fixed computers, did you?). One of my aims is to actually understand the Voightlander Ultramatic well enough to repair and align it (this is one of the most complicated mechanical cameras ever...) > I have a large collection of books, a private library that I use and enjoy. I've yet to meet a hacker who doesn't have books piled up everywher... > I have a basement full of computer parts and sundry electronics which I > grabbed because they were available, with some dim future plan to do > something with. Ditto, only no basement, if you see what I mean. Electronic parts, tools, test gear, etc piled everywhere... > > I also have a number of personal computers of differing vintages ut to the > newest, which I use and keep working past their normal lifespan. I think I uspected this PC/AT definitely qualifies there... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 19:00:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:00:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another part data sheet request In-Reply-To: <200505171702.KAA21748@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 17, 5 10:02:51 am Message-ID: > > Hi All > Here is another request. I'm looking for at least the > pinouts for the following parts made by Western Digital > ( I think ): > > WD1100V-01 > WD1100V-03 > WD1100V-04 > WD1100V-05 > WD1100V-12 > > These have various functions related to disk I/O. I have the data sheets, but as ever no scanner. Still, here are the pinouts : WD1100-01 Serial/Parallel converter 1 Clk 2 N/C 3 BClr/ 4 Test/ 5 D00 6 D01 7 D02 8 D03 9 D04 10 Gnd 11 D05 12 D05 13 D07 14 ShfClk/ (output) 15 BDone 16 Dout 17 ST/ 18 NRZ 19 En 20 Vcc WD1100-03 Address Mark Detector 1 RCLk/ 2 DIn/ 3 RCLk 4 Clk In/ 5 Dout/ 6 N/C 7 N/C 8 Test1/ 9 EnDet 10 Gnd 11 Test2/ 12 DClk 13 N/C 14 QOut/ 15 AMDet/ 16 AMDet 17 N/C 18 CP 19 Rst/ 20 Vcc WD1100-04 CRC Generator/Checker 1 Din/ 2 DClk/ 3 ShfClk/ 4 N/C 5 N/C 6 CWE/ 7 DOCE 8 CRCIZ/ 9 N/C 10 Gnd 11 Dout/ 12 SkpClk 13 CRCOK 14 WCLk 15 TIOMClk 16 CRCOK/ 17 N/C 18 N/C 19 N/C 20 Vcc WD1100-05 Parallel/Serial Converter 1 D0 2 D1 3 D2 4 D3 5 D4 6 D5 7 D6 8 D7 9 ShfClk 10 Gnd 11 DClk/ 12 WClk/ 13 Ld/ 14 ShfClk/ 15 Dout 16 BDone 17 Test/ 18 N/C 19 En/ 20 Vcc WD1100-12 Improved MFM Genreator 1 NRZ/ 2 SkpEn 3 WClk 4 WCLk/ 5 RWC 6 CS/ 7 DrqClk/ 8 IntClk/ 9 2*DR/ 10 Gnd 11 Nom 12 Late 13 Early 14 Drq/ 15 IntRq/ 16 MFM 17 MR/ 18 A1 19 A0 20 Vcc Let me know if you want explanations of any of those signals. -tony From tomj at wps.com Tue May 17 19:28:46 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050517171726.F850@localhost> > OTOH, it would be gross overkill to store the complete bitstream > without clock separation of every track on disks that could be > defined as "5.25 DSDD 48TPI WD/IBM 5SPT 1024BPS, no known oddities", > just because SOME (a few thousand) disk formats DO have strange > things to deal with. And herein lies the core of the electronic/data part of the problem. Everything is perfectly orthogonal, except for the exceptions. And there are so many exceptions as to rule the roost. The implication in this thread is there is some single computer-based solution to solving the world's data loss problem. It's silly on it's face. Look how hard it is with the black square things with the rotating magnetic mylar inside, even of just one size. I think that the idea of always saving all data is naive. Even within narrow bounds, say electronicizing printed manuals, there are all sorts of compromises and data losses (resolution, color, texture, ad nauseum) but the usage is often nerdly, not cultural, eg. I wanna know what IC17 is and will interpolate between the moire pattern artifacts to find out. The human eyeball/brain is fixing the errors. I predict that there will be no single solution to the current crop of problems, which will expand with time. Funny, I was making this argument in an automobile list, where there's a similar implied goal of a magic fuel, motor, etc that will "solve transportation problems". I think it's clear that transportation is a cultural system, involving cars, trains, public trans, urban planning, walkable neighborhoods, etc. One size does not fit all. The problem has to be handled case by case. While certainly lots of sharing is great, it might be that (made up examples) Cromemco CDOS archiving is different from Cromemco CP/M and other CP/Ms though there is overlap, etc and it's all certainly different than archiving 1/2" tape, or paper tapes, or disk packs, or EPROMs. A unified system seems like a 1890 solution. Give a small boy a hammer, and everything looks like a nail. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 19:25:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:25:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <002201c55b37$8f8f0190$8892d6d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 17, 5 06:24:17 pm Message-ID: > >>In the 1940's how many people were able to build a radio reciever with > >>what > >>they found in the battle field (razor blade, safety pin, knife, wire, > >>headset), how many could today? The same applies to computer technology. > >> > > Hi > > I could. Junk today has more useable parts than the > > junk they had then. Making a AM radio is quite easy today. > > Dwight > > My point is that while you and I can how many others can? The same applies \begin{rpf} ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! \end{rpf} Or at least I am darn sure I could still make a crystal set the hard way > to certain computer technology. Ditto for making a processor from SSI/MSI chips (I've done this for a special-purpose programmable device, turning it into a processor would not have been hard), reading/writing microcode, etc, etc, etc. Mind you, these days most people can't even wire an RS232 cable and get it right.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 19:27:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:27:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 17, 5 04:41:29 pm Message-ID: > > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. It's worrying that I could do this before I even went to primary school... > > Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of > > the bulb contacts to that. etc. > > Wow, comedy for nerds. I have to see that. Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 19:32:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:32:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <200505180000.RAA21898@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 17, 5 05:00:07 pm Message-ID: > Even so, they had relays then. One can make a useable > head set with a bar magnet, coil from a relay and > a tin can. ( Add something to stick things together with. > There are too many possibilities here to even speculate! ) I read somewhere (I think in Wireless World about 30 years ago) about a design for a headphone made from a tin of Sellotape (self-adhesive tape, normally used for sticking paper, etc). You fixed a small magnet in the base of the tin, and wound a coil from enammeled copper wire. Suck the coil between strips of Sellotape, then stuc that on top of the tin, with more strips of tape to complete the 'diaphragm'. Apparently it worked reasoanbly well. There are also some designs for headsets, along with other radio components in that very hackish book 'The Voice of the Crystal'. There's an add-on book 'Instruments of Ampification' that covers home-made valves and transistors (albeit rather poor ones). -tony From cctech at randy482.com Tue May 17 19:46:07 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:46:07 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003c01c55b42$fdc718e0$af3cd7d1@randy> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 6:39 PM > While the goal is certainly simple (to be able to generate duplicates > of odd diskettes without requiring human manual intervention), there > does not exist a method of describing a disk format in a practical way, > that does not require SOME manual handling of exceptions. > > Although the number of exceptions is theoretically finite, > for ANY proposed specification, one or more of us can come > up with an exception. Therefore, it remains necessary to > retain a "comment" field to be able to specify additional > "weirdities", especially if the spec is to be opened up > enough to deal with "copy protected" disks. > > OTOH, it would be gross overkill to store the complete bitstream > without clock separation of every track on disks that could be > defined as "5.25 DSDD 48TPI WD/IBM 5SPT 1024BPS, no known oddities", > just because SOME (a few thousand) disk formats DO have strange > things to deal with. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Some disk formats: http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html Soon PC's won't be supporting floppy drives at all, you must consider the fact you are communicating information to someone that doesn't know of the formatting at all. It is best that within the archive in general an explanation of what is "standard" i.e. for floppies how a 765 formats for a couple of PC formats, then for different formats be able to compare against the "standard". This information should not be included for every media image but within an archive in general. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 17 20:29:30 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:29:30 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116375108.25633.119.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> <1116375108.25633.119.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050517202736.04f3ca50@mail> At 07:11 PM 5/17/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Bah, you just need each archive to contain embedded Java source that can >decode the archive's contents... ;-) OK, I'll channel Lancaster... "Store the disk images in PostScript, then adapt a floppy interface to work on an old spare Laserwriter..." - John From tomj at wps.com Tue May 17 20:37:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050517183257.M850@localhost> > Or at least I am darn sure I could still make a crystal set the hard way The amazing thing some WWII POWs did was to make a radio detector with a rusty blue razor blade and a short piece of pencil carbon. Or was that some Poles. Poked around with the razor blade to hit an actively-rectifying spot, ala galena cat's whisker. It wasn't like making radios from literal garbage (eg. no electronic components AT ALL -- NONE) was widespread or anything in ye olden dayes. It still took spectacular ingenuity and a good handful of fundamental knowledge. Probably more people today could do it. It does obviously require massive output AM transmitters to detect. We're talking gains << 1 here. Try that with XM... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 17 20:59:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050517185550.E3225@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > > > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > > > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > > It's worrying that I could do this before I even went to primary school... How can somebody even consider a career in "engineering" if they've never even made their own flashlight ("torch" on the other side of the pond) > > > Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of > > > the bulb contacts to that. etc. > > Wow, comedy for nerds. I have to see that. > > Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry... I cried. I try to teach beginning programming in C and "intel" assembly language. But I don't have enough common ground to even talk to people with NO concept of the world around them. Does anyone else remember that show (about 6 months to a year ago), and have any references to a write-up of it? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue May 17 21:12:17 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:12:17 -0400 Subject: wanted: IBM Series I display model 4978 (more...) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050517215254.031c0530@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I am in Wilmington Delaware and I am currently working to restore an IBM Series I system. I am writing to see if there is anyone in the Mid Atlantic USA with a working spare IBM 4978 display terminal. From the assembled documentation it may be possible that any of the following terminals will also work with appropriate system attachment card(s): IBM 3101, 5250, 5251 (model 1 or 2), 5252 (model 1 only), 4980 (with #1250 "multidrop work station attachment card"), or 3161/3163 ASCII display station (with RS-422A card) may also work. System 36 terminals in general are not compatible (it appears). If there is a way to hook up an IBM PC w/ monitor to a series I that would be welcome information. Inventory: qty) description 2) 6' IBM 4997 Rack Units with shelves to house the processor and peripherals. 1) IBM 4956 (I think rev K) Processor; See also * below. 1) Cambex Corp Model 80810 2-tape drive storage device (no tapes) 1) IBM 4962 8" disk drive (w/ 3 boxes of software) 1) IBM 4967 Hard drive 1) IBM 4963 Hard drive 1) IBM 4963A Hard drive 1) IBM 4978 display station and keyboard (display is bad, single horizontal line only.) 12) Series I system software/hardware manuals "standard 3-ring binder sized" 20) Series I system software/hardware manuals (tall, blue, with IBM written on them) There is documentation for all components, plus service logs, software documentation, installation instructions, etc. Pretty complete. Misc. papers and other documentation and receipts. 3 boxes of IBM software on 8" disks, including diagnostics for hardware. 1 box of cables and jacks for additional display stations/terminals 1 box of printer ribbons (no printer) product literature and period IBM sales circulars, etc. * The 4956 Processor is full of the appropriate cards for the peripherals (hard drives, tape drive, terminals, etc.) The system appears to have been upgraded at least once. I have been able to cable up most peripherals to the matching processor cards. I do not plan to power up the system at this time. I have cleaned each subsystem, but overall it was "clean enough" already. Most of the wear is on the rack unit and shelves; dings and the like. The peripherals do not appear to be damaged. That what when I tried the terminal....doh! You can contact me directly - billdeg at aol dot com From Tim at rikers.org Tue May 17 22:07:05 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:07:05 -0500 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517193210.050997c8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050517193210.050997c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <428AB159.6020509@Rikers.org> quick google. How's teleprinter from: http://www.fontfreak.com/fonts-t.htm -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue May 17 22:10:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:10:01 -0500 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? References: <428A65DB.8090108@PACBELL.NET><090501c55b3d$5b5ecf80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <1116375285.25633.121.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00c401c55b57$1517a280$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob Laag wrote... >> From: BOB LAAG >> > THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM >> > TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON >> > THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, Check to see if the 386 has serial ports built in, maybe they need to be disabled? Jay West From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 17 22:23:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Timex Sinclaire Stuff Message-ID: I recently obtained a large amount of Sinclaire stuff from an estate. I know the stuff is not worth a whole bunch, but I would rather it not get junked. If you see something you want, let me know. I would like shipping costs reimbursed, plus a token amount to cover my time and effort and Paypal expenses (if you use Paypal, do not use this email address! Wait for instructions!). Of course, real offers will be accepted as well! First come first serve, too, depending on how much I like you. Working condition is unknown! (several) New in box TS1000 systems, boxes worn (1) Used in box TS2040 printer (1) Used in box TS2068 system, with books and cartridges (1) box of TS1000 and TS2068 software cassettes, maybe 70 total (1) bag of two rolls of TS2040 printer paper (1) JLO EPROM burner for the TS2068, looks like a kit (1) JLO port expander, four or five ports wide (several) TS1016 16K memory modules (stack) ZX Computing, Sinclaire Quarterly magazines, 20 or so (1) Used ZX81 with older ZX 16K memory module and original books (1) use in box GE cassette recorder, specifially touted for micro use! (1) CP2068 Centronics printer adaptor for the TS2068, with software (1) homebrew modem for the ZX bus (1) pile of books, user group newsletters (Washington DC based), misc (1) Kaypro 2000 laptop bag Let me know off list soon! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 17 22:17:50 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505180325.XAA18867@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> to certain computer technology. > Ditto for making a processor from SSI/MSI chips (I've done this for a > special-purpose programmable device, turning it into a processor > would not have been hard), I know I can do that, because I have. Back in the late '70s, at the University of Colorado, I took a computer hardware design course. It was very hands-on, and the term project, if you will, was to construct a small 4-bit computer from SSI/MSI TTL. (The most complex chips used were an ALU - 74181, I think it was - and some static RAM.) Not much memory space, 16 4-bit words, but fully functional within its design limitations. > Mind you, these days most people can't even wire an RS232 cable and > get it right.... Of course, it doesn't help that most equipment manufacturers can't wire an RS232 connector and get it right (true almost regardless of your definition of "right" in this context). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 17 22:39:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Timex Sinclaire Stuff, update Message-ID: OK, it has been just a few minutes, and I am getting a lot of replies. Many want basically "the whole pile" (or nearly) - great, shipping to one person would be nice. So throw some cheapo offers to me... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue May 17 22:44:54 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:44:54 -0400 Subject: Timex Sinclaire Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428ABA36.8080609@jcwren.com> William, If it's not spoken for, I'd be interested. --jc William Donzelli wrote: >I recently obtained a large amount of Sinclaire stuff from an estate. I >know the stuff is not worth a whole bunch, but I would rather it not get >junked. If you see something you want, let me know. I would like shipping >costs reimbursed, plus a token amount to cover my time and effort and >Paypal expenses (if you use Paypal, do not use this email address! Wait >for instructions!). Of course, real offers will be accepted as well! First >come first serve, too, depending on how much I like you. Working condition >is unknown! > >(several) New in box TS1000 systems, boxes worn >(1) Used in box TS2040 printer >(1) Used in box TS2068 system, with books and cartridges >(1) box of TS1000 and TS2068 software cassettes, maybe 70 total >(1) bag of two rolls of TS2040 printer paper >(1) JLO EPROM burner for the TS2068, looks like a kit >(1) JLO port expander, four or five ports wide >(several) TS1016 16K memory modules >(stack) ZX Computing, Sinclaire Quarterly magazines, 20 or so >(1) Used ZX81 with older ZX 16K memory module and original books >(1) use in box GE cassette recorder, specifially touted for micro use! >(1) CP2068 Centronics printer adaptor for the TS2068, with software >(1) homebrew modem for the ZX bus >(1) pile of books, user group newsletters (Washington DC based), misc >(1) Kaypro 2000 laptop bag > >Let me know off list soon! > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > > From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Tue May 17 23:39:02 2005 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:39:02 -0700 Subject: SERIAL PORT BOARD NUMBER FOR BOARD THAT WON'T UPGRADE Message-ID: <428AC6E6.4050506@PACBELL.NET> I FORGOT TO MENTION THE H.P. SERIAL PORT BOARD NUMBER... 24541B THANKS... From drb at msu.edu Wed May 18 00:03:16 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:03:16 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 lamp test Message-ID: <200505180503.j4I53G6s014481@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Jay: Try this: Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' from: http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html#chaser Not sure if it works on all models. De From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 18 00:13:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 01:13:45 -0400 Subject: Timex Sinclaire Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518010836.047571a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: [Snippage] >(1) use in box GE cassette recorder, specifially touted for micro use! If this is the same cassette recorder I have - it's a fantastic recorder. Little dots next to the "2" on both the volume and tone dials to show you where optimal recording levels are for computer data -- I still have mine with a 6V wallwart soldered to the battery tabs, and it worked great for 15+ years whenever I needed it. I still have it but I diddle with cassettes very rarely now. 'Twas my first recorder for my CoCo, then used it later with my Tandy 200. Prolly the last decent thing GE ever made; but it's a solid little unit. If one is looking for a good cassette recorder for their micro, one should jump on this. ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 00:52:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:52:24 -0500 Subject: Sota 286i jumper settings? Message-ID: <428AD818.9070505@oldskool.org> I'm the proud owner of a SOTA 286i board (upgrades an 8088/8086 pee cee to a 12.5MHz 80286) without any docs. (Google and Usenet archives have proved empty.) I actually have a need for this board to work, but I have no idea what the jumper settings are. The one(s) I am interested in are the settings for which host CPU is attached -- I can gather from what I *was* able to find that it supports "8088", "Standard 8088" (whatever that means) and "8086". It came with an 8086-2. My machine runs an 8088-1. Clearly, I'd like jumper settings so I don't blow both boards to kingdom come. Anyone have the specs/jumper settings of this accelerator board? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 01:58:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <090501c55b3d$5b5ecf80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2005, John Allain wrote: > From: BOB LAAG > > THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM > > TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON > > THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, > > Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. What if you're posting from an Model 28 teletype? (HINT) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 02:02:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > My first thought on reading Sellam's definition was 'hey, that means the > PC/AT is a mini, it's got the 80286 + an 8042 keyboard interface + an > 8048 in the keyboard'. Then I read it again and realised he'd said 'for > general purpose programming', which rules out the microcontrollers in the > keyboard, keyboard interface, drives, etc. Although arguably the graphics > processor does count. The definition is not smart-ass proof ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed May 18 03:17:01 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:17:01 +0100 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 May 2005 01:25:16 BST." Message-ID: <200505180817.JAA13198@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > Or at least I am darn sure I could still make a crystal set the hard way > I did that some years ago just to show someone how it was done, the only bit I couldn't make was the phones. (Coil wound on cardboard box, tuning cap made of kitchen foil and card, xtal made from a piece of coke and a steel pin.) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed May 18 03:05:53 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:05:53 +0100 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 May 2005 15:01:15 PDT." <200505172201.j4HM1Fcv006702@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200505180805.JAA13185@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Zane H. Healy said: > > I need a font for Winders that looks like the outputfrom a chain printer > > or common line printer. > > > > Does anyone have anything like this? > > No, but I'd be interested in either an OpenType or Postscript font for the > Mac. :^) ...and I'd like an IBM PC DOS font with all the graphics chars for the Mac. I've got a cd somewhere with over 500 Mac fonts on it, but as to _where_ it is... :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 18 04:13:42 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:13:42 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA2@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, there are several documentation items up for auction on eBay, and most of them have a bid. However, I do not recognize all the bidders. I know al_kossow :~) , but is ak6dn also on this list? I do not want to bid against somebody who is also on ClassicCmp, but do want a copy of that documentation because I will own an 11/60 in a few weeks. If "ak6dn" is not on this list I will go for them! I am quite sure I will need the doc as I will not take the whole system (corporate cabinet), but only the CPU and I/O box and the two power supplies plus wiring harness. State of the system: unknown! so the maintenance print set is most welcome. If somebody else on this list has 11/60 documentation available, which is not on bitsavers, let me know! Perhaps we can work something out ... I am prepared to pay part of the winning bids if I can get access to the documentation: in paper to scan it, or digital. I hope it is not too much against ethics. I let somebody win the auction, and when the bidder *owns* the stuff, he is free to make it accessible ... I don't want to start a recent thread all over again. thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed May 18 04:25:52 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:25:52 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA2@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <000601c55b8b$9630a7c0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gooijen H" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > Hi all, > > there are several documentation items up for auction on eBay, > and most of them have a bid. However, I do not recognize all > the bidders. I know al_kossow :~) , but is ak6dn also on this > list? I do not want to bid against somebody who is also on > ClassicCmp, but do want a copy of that documentation because > I will own an 11/60 in a few weeks. > If "ak6dn" is not on this list I will go for them! > > I am quite sure I will need the doc as I will not take the > whole system (corporate cabinet), but only the CPU and I/O box > and the two power supplies plus wiring harness. State of the > system: unknown! so the maintenance print set is most welcome. > > If somebody else on this list has 11/60 documentation available, > which is not on bitsavers, let me know! Perhaps we can work > something out ... > > I am prepared to pay part of the winning bids if I can get > access to the documentation: in paper to scan it, or digital. > I hope it is not too much against ethics. I let somebody win > the auction, and when the bidder *owns* the stuff, he is free > to make it accessible ... I don't want to start a recent thread > all over again. > > thanks, > - Henk, PA8PDP. > AK6DN is listed as Donald N. North in Saratoga CA. Nico (OZ1BMC) From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 18 04:30:39 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:30:39 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Oops sorry, I forgot to mention that I knew that (www.qrz.com) The real question is whether Donald is on this list. With HAM radio amateurs, the reference to a person is often his call sign, not his first name :~) - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Nico de Jong > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 11:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gooijen H" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:13 AM > Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > > Hi all, > > > > there are several documentation items up for auction on eBay, > > and most of them have a bid. However, I do not recognize all > > the bidders. I know al_kossow :~) , but is ak6dn also on this > > list? > I do not want to bid against somebody who is also on > > ClassicCmp, but do want a copy of that documentation because > > I will own an 11/60 in a few weeks. > > If "ak6dn" is not on this list I will go for them! > > > > I am quite sure I will need the doc as I will not take the > > whole system (corporate cabinet), but only the CPU and I/O box > > and the two power supplies plus wiring harness. State of the > > system: unknown! so the maintenance print set is most welcome. > > > > If somebody else on this list has 11/60 documentation available, > > which is not on bitsavers, let me know! Perhaps we can work > > something out ... > > > > I am prepared to pay part of the winning bids if I can get > > access to the documentation: in paper to scan it, or digital. > > I hope it is not too much against ethics. I let somebody win > > the auction, and when the bidder *owns* the stuff, he is free > > to make it accessible ... I don't want to start a recent thread > > all over again. > > > > thanks, > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > AK6DN is listed as Donald N. North in Saratoga CA. > > Nico (OZ1BMC) > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 06:35:07 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:35:07 -0400 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518073507.009a26c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm sitting on a gold-mine! I never thought I'd see this. I actually gave away over a dozen of these a couple of years ago just to thin out the herd! Joe From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 18 07:17:38 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:17:38 -0400 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A2D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. > > What if you're posting from an Model 28 teletype? > > (HINT) Or an Apple ][+ ? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 07:33:49 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <20050518123349.DA14470C76F2@bitsavers.org> ak6dn is Don North, a friend of mine and one of the people who worked on the 11/60 and 11/74 If he is outbid or sniped, I will get these documents for him. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 07:35:26 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <20050518123526.C76C370C76F6@bitsavers.org> you may also notice that Don was the author of the diagnostics that he is bidding on.. From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 18 07:44:31 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:44:31 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA6@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hello Al, thanks very much for the reply. I am posting the reply to the list, so that others are informed too. I am not 100% clear what you mean with the last sentence. However, it looks that the documents will be available for bitsavers and that is good enough for me. If needed, I will support (donate) for the good cause :~) thanks! - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of aek at bitsavers.org > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 14:34 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > ak6dn is Don North, a friend of mine and one of the people > who worked on the 11/60 and 11/74 > > If he is outbid or sniped, I will get these documents for him. From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 18 07:46:17 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:46:17 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA7@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Wow! I wonder how many people are on ClassicCmp *and* wrote diagnostics ...? - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of aek at bitsavers.org > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 14:35 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org; mail at bitsavers.org > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > you may also notice that Don was the author of the diagnostics > that he is bidding on.. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 07:59:07 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <20050518125907.D302D70C7709@bitsavers.org> > I am not 100% clear what you mean with the last sentence. If someone outbids Don, I will bid on the items. The last batch of MP's that Larry listed had the 11/60 memory engineering drawings, which will be up on bitsavers later today. From GOOI at oce.nl Wed May 18 08:11:44 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:11:44 +0200 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CA8@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Thanks! Also for bitsavers! (can't be said often enough) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of aek at bitsavers.org > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 14:59 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > > I am not 100% clear what you mean with the last sentence. > > If someone outbids Don, I will bid on the items. > > The last batch of MP's that Larry listed had the 11/60 memory > engineering drawings, which will be up on bitsavers later today. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed May 18 08:13:31 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:13:31 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 17:30 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Brian Wheeler" > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:06 PM > > > > As coincidence would have it, I work at Indiana University's Digital > > Library Program and there was a lecture on archiving audio which hits > > many of the same issues that have come up here. The conclusions that > > they came up with for the project included: > > * There's no such thing as an eternal media: the data must be > > transportable to the latest generation of storage > > * Metadata should be bundled with the content > > * Act like you get one chance to read the media :( > > > > While this is a different context, the principle is basically the same. > > I've got a pile of TK50 tapes I'm backing up using the SIMH tape format, > > so this is relevant to that process as well. > > > > I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > > collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > > tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. The container could > > contain these components: > > * content metadata - info from the disk's label/sleeve, etc > > * media metadata - the type of media this came from > > * archivist metadata - who did it, methods used, notes, etc > > * badblock information - 0 blocks which are actually bad. > > * content - a bytestream of the data > > > > I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties > > of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a > > repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track > > info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media > > metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). > > > > Emulators could use the content part of the file as-is and collectors > > would have enough information to recreate the original media. It would > > also allow for cataloging fairly easily. > > > > Brian > > > I disagree on a few points: > > Today we know what the 1541 structure is, we need enough detail to explain > it to future users. > The differences between FM and MFM are not as simple as a binary decision. > RX02 is one example of mixed formatting, even with FM & MFM each > implimentation can be fairly unique (hard vs. soft sectored, sector size, > flux density, etc). > > I guess what I was getting at is there should be a library of standard types which fully define the format. 1541's look the same 99% of the time unless half-tracks, fat tracks, or another copy protection scheme was used. So if there's a library that fully defines what a 1541 _is_, there's no reason to have that exact definition copied for each disk archived. Not that it really takes up that much space, but it does make it more tedious -- do you want to enter the track/sector geometry for every disk you copy? > Most of the exact details can be understood by using current knowledge but > maybe not 50 years from now when someone is trying to understand it. > True, but I suppose that's why we're discussing it now :) > One thing can be that for a given format part of the overall archive should > include technical details: > > That is to say one example would be a site like asimov should include > technical information on the apple disk interface as well as an explaination > of how the dsk images are created and restored. It isn't necessary to > include the details with every dsk file but withing the general archive. > Agreed. If there's an archive with the 'bundling software' which handles the meta data, there should be a library of definitions there that can be copied to each user's archive as needed. Brian From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed May 18 08:18:43 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:18:43 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116369265.25633.93.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> <1116369265.25633.93.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116422323.4756.12.camel@wombat> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 22:34 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 17:06 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > As coincidence would have it, I work at Indiana University's Digital > > Library Program and there was a lecture on archiving audio which hits > > many of the same issues that have come up here. The conclusions that > > they came up with for the project included: > > * There's no such thing as an eternal media: the data must be > > transportable to the latest generation of storage > > Yep, it's recognised the need to periodically refresh data onto whatever > the current favourite media type is. The nice thing about a structured > and essentially human-readable metadata format is that there's a good > chance that it can be transferred as-is to a new type of media without > any reprocessing. > > > * Metadata should be bundled with the content > > Just to clarify; do you mean bundled alongside content or interspersed > with? (From the rest of your message I believe you mean the former, > which happens to be my view too...) > Bundled alongside so the 'raw' data (metadata or content) can be manipulated with standard tools. > > * Act like you get one chance to read the media :( > > Yep. Although sometimes multiple reads of media and a combination of the > resulting data can actually improve the ability to reconstruct it :) > True. During this lecture they were talking about recording the stop/starts required to get the actual audio into the system. Apparently there's some standard for doing that for audio. There were several horror stories as well. > > I think the optimum format for doing this isn't a single file, but a > > collection of files bundled into a single package. Someone mentioned > > tar, I think, and zip would work just as well. > > The only danger there is that the two become separated over time, but in > my mind it's an acceptable risk. It's sort of like a librarian losing a > few volumes from a set of encyclopedia I suppose - something that you'd > have to be really careless to do. > Yeah, but if the package is treated as a separate archival unit, then the risk of separation should be fairly low. As to other's comments about zip vs tar, I only suggested zip because it is more common today. Just don't use ar or cpio! :) > > I don't think there's any real need to document the physical properties > > of the media for EVERY disk archived -- there should probably be a > > repository of 'standard' media types (1541's different-sectors-per-track > > info, FM vs MFM per track information, etc) plus overrides in the media > > metadata (uses fat-tracks, is 40 track vs 35, etc). > > Now risk of seperation there might well be a problem if there's a single > copy of some metatdata for more than one disk image. I'd say that each > 'bundle' forming a disk image (raw data + metadata) needs to totally > describe that disk... > Well, the on-disk-structure metadata is the only one that would benefit from having a separate repository of definitions. I don't see any reason to not allow the data to be fully defined if the archivist feels the desire to do so, but a list of standard types (as well as a copy of the full definitions stored somewhere) would take some of the tedium out of it. Brian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 18 09:00:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:00:20 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> Message-ID: <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 08:13 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I guess what I was getting at is there should be a library of standard > types which fully define the format. 1541's look the same 99% of the > time unless half-tracks, fat tracks, or another copy protection scheme > was used. So if there's a library that fully defines what a 1541 _is_, > there's no reason to have that exact definition copied for each disk > archived. Not that it really takes up that much space, but it does make > it more tedious -- do you want to enter the track/sector geometry for > every disk you copy? Ahh, OK - not a problem at image creation time, *providing* that the image format includes all the data needed to recreate that disk *without* the repository. In 30 years time, there's no guarantee that the repository will be in the same format, or easy to get hold of etc. so there's a danger that an image will be junk if all it has in it is a label saying that the source disk was in "Fred's own disk layout" format. But yep, a repository could make the UI of any creation tools cleaner - but it's a seperate project from the image format itself I think... Personally I think it's achievable, providing we stick to worrying about floppies at the moment. Tapes, hard drives, ROM images etc. can come later - doubtless they'd share some field names, but the structure is sufficiently* different that it's too much to take on in a first cut. *OK, gut feeling it that it's not *that* different and floppy images are actually the most complex of the lot. But as someone else has said, it's too easy to get bogged down when trying to come up with a "do everything" solution. I can't see that it matters if there ends up being seperate futurekeep formats for different classes of media. cheers Jules From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed May 18 09:12:57 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:12:57 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116425578.4756.19.camel@wombat> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 14:00 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 08:13 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I guess what I was getting at is there should be a library of standard > > types which fully define the format. 1541's look the same 99% of the > > time unless half-tracks, fat tracks, or another copy protection scheme > > was used. So if there's a library that fully defines what a 1541 _is_, > > there's no reason to have that exact definition copied for each disk > > archived. Not that it really takes up that much space, but it does make > > it more tedious -- do you want to enter the track/sector geometry for > > every disk you copy? > > Ahh, OK - not a problem at image creation time, *providing* that the > image format includes all the data needed to recreate that disk > *without* the repository. In 30 years time, there's no guarantee that > the repository will be in the same format, or easy to get hold of etc. > so there's a danger that an image will be junk if all it has in it is a > label saying that the source disk was in "Fred's own disk layout" > format. > Good point. Yeah, the formatting information should probably be included with every image, but a disk format repository solves alot of the tedium. > But yep, a repository could make the UI of any creation tools cleaner - > but it's a seperate project from the image format itself I think... > Yes. > Personally I think it's achievable, providing we stick to worrying about > floppies at the moment. Tapes, hard drives, ROM images etc. can come > later - doubtless they'd share some field names, but the structure is > sufficiently* different that it's too much to take on in a first cut. > Tapes are an issue since they're really not a stream of bytes -- there are tape marks and gaps. The simh virtual tape format seems to be fairly complete in that respect: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/simh_magtape.pdf Brian > *OK, gut feeling it that it's not *that* different and floppy images are > actually the most complex of the lot. But as someone else has said, it's > too easy to get bogged down when trying to come up with a "do > everything" solution. I can't see that it matters if there ends up being > seperate futurekeep formats for different classes of media. > > cheers > > Jules > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 18 09:27:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:27:19 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? Message-ID: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro II system disk? >From: "Doc Shipley" >Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:20 AM > > >> Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable >> disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect Systems) >> The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be happy >> just to boot CP/M on the thing. >> >> FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk >> and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. >> >> Doc Doc did you ever get a disk? What drive(s) does that system have installed? I have A kaypro 4/84 I use with with Advent Turborom and Ramdisk however I have mine set up with some 3.5" drives. Mine doesn't have a host controller so no hard disk. I'd need to pull out one drive to set up the right drive to make a boot disk. I modded it years ago to improve functionality rather than preserve it as manufactured mostly as it was already not original. REGARDING ARCHIVEGING: I was/am trying to get away from the multitude of incompatable 5.25" formats. By installing the 3.5" drives with Turborom that allowed me to have only one media (3.5") and at most three formats on that media (781k CP/M, 720k CP/M, 720K dos-PC) which is my sanity set that all my machines can do directly at the media level and programtically using applications. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 18 09:35:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:35:31 -0400 Subject: Tandy T100 info Message-ID: <0IGO005YGWI5QAS7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy T100 info > From: John Hogerhuis > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:54:50 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 5/17/05, Allison wrote: > >> Tandy also had one that added a vidio and disk to the M100 that >> used the bus connector. I have part of the manual for it. >> > >I know about the DVI. But the PIC Disk actually let you boot CP/M. >What I forgot to mention was that it put the M100 into an all-RAM 64k >mode operating over the expansion bus. I see. I'd already figured out on paper how to use the system bus plug to "alter" the system ram map and add IO such as disk. Tandy made that very easy to do. It would take little to create a 64kRam/IDE package that would otherwise work through that port. Making it look good and run on batteries is more of a challenge! Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 09:40:03 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Magnetic tape archiving (was Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <20050518144003.721CF70C7725@bitsavers.org> Tapes are an issue since they're really not a stream of bytes -- there are tape marks and gaps. The simh virtual tape format seems to be fairly complete in that respect -- The big thing missing from the '.tap' format is it assumes all the blocks are good. There is no way to describe a partially read block, or to encode any of the CRC or LRC check data that was in the tape block on the physical medium. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 09:45:00 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <20050518144500.6423670C772D@bitsavers.org> but a disk format repository solves alot of the tedium. -- does anyone have copies of the media related ANSI and ISO standards that are no longer available? There were standards back through seven track tape which are 'depreciated' guess this is sort of related to the 'dead media project' has anything more happened with the revival of that? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:36:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:36:10 -0400 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050518073507.009a26c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050518073507.009a26c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 5/18/05, Joe R. wrote: > I'm sitting on a gold-mine! I never thought I'd see this. I actually > gave away over a dozen of these a couple of years ago just to thin out the > herd! I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. -ethan From kth at srv.net Wed May 18 10:43:44 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:43:44 -0600 Subject: VT220 In-Reply-To: <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org><20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <15ba01c55b21$cc4c5490$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <428B62B0.20802@srv.net> SP wrote: >Hello. I am playing with one VT220 plugged to the serial port of one Pentium >4 laptop. I have Cygwin installed, with Init and getty started, and the >serial port defined with VT200 and 9600 bauds, and I want to open one >session under Cygwin from the VT220. Of course something happens under >Cygwin, because every "enter" opens a new login in the ps list under Cygwin. >But nothing appears in the VT220 screen... > >With this previous explain, the question for gurus is: Would I need one DEC >cable to plug the VT220 (by the way, 25 pin interface) in the Laptop Serial >`port (9 pin port) ? Or can I use a normal serial cable ? > > Login will usually respond to any kind of garbage sent through the serial port. Ok if everything is already set up, but useless for real debuging. Make sure you are NOT using a DEC 9-pin to 25-pin cable when plugging into the PC. DEC's 9-pin layout is different than IBM's. Do you need a null modem? I've had PCs with opposite "polaritry" before. Those cheap RS232 testers available from RadioShack (and others) are useful here (i.e. a block with two DB25's and a lot of leds); if both 2-3 light up, cabling is probably ok and you don't need to add a null modem; if only one does then you probably need one; if none light, you have another problem. Test that the terminal works. Tie pins 2 and 3 together (on the VT220's 25-pin connector) to make a loopback connector (paper clips often come in handy here), and try typing on its keyboard. It should echo. If you don't get echo, then the line drivers are blown. Also double check baud rates and bit-sizes (Try 8bit-no parity-one stop bit). Another thing to try is to write a program that sends a continuous stream of characters to the serial port. Make sure it doesn't hang while outputing (indicates it's a flow control problem). Then you can play with the VT220 settings without needing login working properly. Or you can use kermit (or another terminal program) from the PC. Type on the VT220 keyboard, and you should see what you typed on the PC. Also vice versa. you can see if characters are flowing on one direction or the other properly that way. If you get garbled characters, you have [baud-rate, char width, stop bit, cabling, etc] problems. Try slower speeds (300 baud). Could be a time-base problem in one or the other devices. Slower speeds may not be as badly affected. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 11:39:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <200505181639.JAA22334@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 17 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> >> Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 >> >> towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply >> >> because they are far too new? >> > >> >Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we >> >didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should >> >perhaps be "Personal Computer". >> >> Even that deinition is questionable when applications are stored on a >> remote "server". > >Does the thing sitting in front of you "compute"? Are you the only one >using it at any one time? If so, I'd call that a Personal Computer ;) > Hi Although the machine sitting in front of me can be bought at Fry Electronics, I am not the only one using it. It is part of LSF. I just use the display and keyboard part. When I wish to have a large job done I apply to LSF and it finds a computer not in use, possibly mine. So, is it a personal computer since one could use it that way or is it something else because of the way I'm using it. Dwight From kth at srv.net Wed May 18 11:45:30 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:45:30 -0600 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: <094101c55b3e$30907280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <094101c55b3e$30907280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <428B712A.20607@srv.net> John Allain wrote: >Is TrueType an open format at all? >I have been interested in building my own fonts for decades >at this point. > >John A. > > > > Sounds like you want something like http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 11:46:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? Message-ID: <200505181646.JAA22339@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >>A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two >> >>microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the computer. >> >>For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is defined as a central >> >>processing unit comprised of not more than 4 individual LSI intgerated >> >>circuit on a single board, with the entire ALU being contained within a >> >>single integrated circuit. >> > >> >Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 >> >towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not apply >> >because they are far too new? >> > >> >-chris >> > >> >> It's alrady that bad. >> >> The average Pentium micro (PC) has not less than three often more cpus. >> For example: >> >> CPU pentium S at 100mhz >> Keybord interface 8042 micro >> Keyboard (has one of several micros) >> CDrom (at lest one micro) >> IDE disks (one sometimes two micros) >> Enhanced graphics card (Micro, esp if MP3 or???) > >My first thought on reading Sellam's definition was 'hey, that means the >PC/AT is a mini, it's got the 80286 + an 8042 keyboard interface + an >8048 in the keyboard'. Then I read it again and realised he'd said 'for >general purpose programming', which rules out the microcontrollers in the >keyboard, keyboard interface, drives, etc. Although arguably the graphics >processor does count. > >-tony > And the DSP in many sound boards. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 11:53:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pathology or hobby? Message-ID: <200505181653.JAA22347@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > >> >> I have a small collection of old cameras, all of which can (or at least >> could, if I made film to fit them) be used. > Hi Tony I often use a TV screen as a quick check of the shutter speed. Even though the screen has persitence, where the electron beam hits is brighter. If you know the sweep speed, you can get good enough on the shutter speed. Dwight From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue May 17 13:43:12 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:43:12 -0500 Subject: Disk archival In-Reply-To: <200505171700.j4HH0Tjp003883@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505171700.j4HH0Tjp003883@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <428A3B40.9090102@brutman.com> So, what is the latest version of Teledisk that one can find? And what version is preferred? I have found versions 2.11, 2.12, 2.15, and 2.16. None of them seemed reliable though .. some disks worked, some didn't. Like Jim, I standardized on the Central Point Option Board. (Wish I had spares though .. they are pricey as of late.) For non-protected diskettes I use ditu, Linux dd, or any other sector copier that creates a raw diskette dump. For copy protected diskettes I use the Option Board, and Teledisk if I have the patience. All of my cataloged diskettes have the labels scanned too. Mike From rimmer at xs4all.nl Tue May 17 17:08:10 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:08:10 +0200 Subject: DECServer 200 Rackmounts Bracket Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050518000547.035192b0@pop.xs4all.nl> Any interest perhaps here in a bunch of DECServer 200 Rackmounts Bracket ? Part number is 74-33241-01 I have about 16 of them. Also have put some more DEC bits and bobs up on my Old Computer Market. Cheers, Stefan. From asholz at topinform.de Wed May 18 08:37:45 2005 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:37:45 +0200 Subject: Update and Pictures: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428B4529.404@topinform.com> Hello, the PSU's of the 9845 are always a pain. Esp. for the 9845s produced in Germany once, at first all capacitors have to been checked before applying power. Several of them are of an epoxy based package and like to produce a failure of the PSU (I killed two PSUs up to now and I'm not daring to power on the third). >> I checked the HP 9845B and it's absolutely dead. The fan doesn't even >>run. However the fault should be easy enough to locate. It's odd though, >> >> > >Be warned that thr 9845 PSU is _very_ complicated, even worse than the >PDP11/44 PSU (!). > >Anyway, the input circuit isn't too bad. There's a mains-frequency >transformer (the laminated-core one on the metal bracket) that has 2 >primary windings. They're in series for 230V, in paralell for 115V. The >output of this transformer provides the startup supply. There's also the >conventional bridge/doubler circuit with the 2 massive capacitors in the >middle of the PSU mainboard to supply 350V DC to the choppers > >Anyway, the fans are connected in parallel with the startup transformer >primaries. So on 115V they're essentially connected across the mains. >There is a fuse at the back (10A IIRC for 115V) that I'd check first, >otherwise look at the wiring on the back panel, the barrier strip on the >side of the PSU casing (be warned that the screws that hold the cover >over that go into loose nuts inside the PSU casing, so pull the PSU >module first), etc. This is one of the not-too-complicated parts of the >machine. > > As you seem to know the PSU quite well, do you have schematics? Andreas From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 12:16:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <200505181716.KAA22361@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING >> > > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students >> > > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. >> >> It's worrying that I could do this before I even went to primary school... > >How can somebody even consider a career in "engineering" if they've never >even made their own flashlight ("torch" on the other side of the pond) > >> > > Many of them made a dead short across the battery, and then touched one of >> > > the bulb contacts to that. etc. >> > Wow, comedy for nerds. I have to see that. >> >> Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry... > >I cried. >I try to teach beginning programming in C and "intel" assembly language. >But I don't have enough common ground to even talk to people with NO >concept of the world around them. > >Does anyone else remember that show (about 6 months to a year ago), >and have any references to a write-up of it? Hi You could search on Nova's site at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ I think they have tapes and transcripts available. Dwight From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed May 18 12:19:23 2005 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need chain printer like font Message-ID: <20050518171923.61391.qmail@web31012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John Allain wrote: >Is TrueType an open format at all? >I have been interested in building my own fonts for decades >at this point. > >John A. There were (or are) a few commercial programs with which to do this. The commercial programs were or are probably money-losers because no one bought them once it was clear how difficult this really is to do. Truetype fonts are not bitmapped, they are mathematically described from curves. Worse, there are "hints" involved - in kerning and in sizing (the "hole" in a 4 point 'a' is proporionately much larger than the 20 point version, for example). Writing as someone who actually made a font in Fontographer (I did a Cyrillic font), it takes a combination of artistic talent, attention to detail, and a great deal of work. I did fairly well, considering I had a considerable lack of artistic talent. -Steve Loboyko Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl Nixie Watch (one-tube):http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/complwatch.htm Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed May 18 12:29:10 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:29:10 +0100 Subject: pdp11/45 blinkyprogram? References: <000501c55b2d$9fa08400$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000401c55bcf$1a8663a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Yes, but it's at work (with the 11/45). I'll bring it home tomorrow. There is one on the web, but it won't work on an 11/45, the program runs too fast to allow the filament lamps to light, I put a couple of nested loops in mine to slow it down, this has the advantage of testing a couple of other registers as well. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 11:13 PM Subject: pdp11/45 blinkyprogram? > I was sure I asked this before, and got an answer, but can't seem to find it > :( > > Anyone have a short machine language program to blink lights on an 11/45, > something I can enter via front panel to check it out? > > mucho appreciated :> > > Jay > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed May 18 12:30:46 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:30:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 lamp test References: <200505180503.j4I53G6s014481@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000901c55bcf$53740f00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Boone" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 6:03 AM Subject: PDP-11 lamp test > Jay: > > Try this: > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > > from: > > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html#chaser > > Not sure if it works on all models. > > De This is the one I mentioned - it runs too fast to allow the filaments to light on the 11/45. I guess it was meant for an 11/70 (with LED's on the console, instead of bulbs). Jim. From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 12:29:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:29:42 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost><001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy><1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain><1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat><003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy><1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:00 AM > On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 08:13 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Personally I think it's achievable, providing we stick to worrying about > floppies at the moment. Tapes, hard drives, ROM images etc. can come > later - doubtless they'd share some field names, but the structure is > sufficiently* different that it's too much to take on in a first cut. > cheers > > Jules For ROM images just a binary (or hex) file is sufficient since there is no formatting involved. The only information needed would be a description of what the heck it is. If we were smart (a long stretch) we could store it as Intel hex preceded by text descriptions (including a short description of the Intel hex format). If the ROM is > 64K then a different hex format can be used. ROMs and card image formats are simple enough that no great thought should be wasted on them. Papertapes generally come in two flavors: Text or binary, please note hex tapes are text files. The leading and trailing nulls should be stripped but the data should be kept the same i.e hex tapes should stay hex and not converted to binary. I have seen people store hex data as binary which strips load address data plus with Intel hex it is possible to load different segments which gets lost when converted to binary. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 18 12:30:08 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:30:08 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <428B7BA0.6080408@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Kaypro II system disk? >>From: "Doc Shipley" >>Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:20 AM >> >> >> >>> Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable >>>disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect Systems) >>>The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be happy >>>just to boot CP/M on the thing. >>> >>> FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk >>>and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. >>> >>>Doc > > > Doc did you ever get a disk? What drive(s) does that system have > installed? > > I have A kaypro 4/84 I use with with Advent Turborom and Ramdisk > however I have mine set up with some 3.5" drives. Mine doesn't > have a host controller so no hard disk. I'd need to pull out one > drive to set up the right drive to make a boot disk. I modded it > years ago to improve functionality rather than preserve it as > manufactured mostly as it was already not original. I would *happily* install a 3.5" floppy drive in this box, and possibly ship you my firstborn** to boot, if it'll get this guy up and running. As you said, the box is already heavily modded, and if I understand correctly, the primary function of the TurboROM is to allow more and larger disk formats. I have plenty of DSDD 3.5"floppies, too. It would be nice to have the HDD formatter, but that's not an immediate concern. With the Rodime dying, I will have to find a "new" MFM disk for it anyway. > REGARDING ARCHIVEGING: > > I was/am trying to get away from the multitude of incompatable 5.25" > formats. By installing the 3.5" drives with Turborom that allowed > me to have only one media (3.5") and at most three formats on that > media (781k CP/M, 720k CP/M, 720K dos-PC) which is my sanity set > that all my machines can do directly at the media level and > programtically using applications. Doc From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 12:33:52 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:33:52 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <006101c55bcf$c5aec3d0$b33dd7d1@randy> From: "Allison" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:27 AM >>From: "Doc Shipley" >>Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:20 AM >> >> >>> Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable >>> disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect >>> Systems) >>> The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be >>> happy >>> just to boot CP/M on the thing. >>> >>> FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk >>> and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. >>> >>> Doc > > Doc did you ever get a disk? What drive(s) does that system have > installed? > > I have A kaypro 4/84 I use with with Advent Turborom and Ramdisk > however I have mine set up with some 3.5" drives. Mine doesn't > have a host controller so no hard disk. I'd need to pull out one > drive to set up the right drive to make a boot disk. I modded it > years ago to improve functionality rather than preserve it as > manufactured mostly as it was already not original. > > REGARDING ARCHIVEGING: > > I was/am trying to get away from the multitude of incompatable 5.25" > formats. By installing the 3.5" drives with Turborom that allowed > me to have only one media (3.5") and at most three formats on that > media (781k CP/M, 720k CP/M, 720K dos-PC) which is my sanity set > that all my machines can do directly at the media level and > programtically using applications. > > > Allison The Kaypro '84 is different from the earlier (often refered to as '83) and the ROMs & boot disks are not compatible between them. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Wed May 18 12:43:41 2005 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:43:41 -0700 Subject: RE. H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS 24541B Message-ID: <428B7ECD.5080701@PACBELL.NET> FOUND A GUY ON EBAY SELLING ONE OF THESE HE GOT SURPLUS... HIS INFO SAYS '6/8 MHZ' SO MABEY IT IS JUST A SPEED PROBLEM AS THE 386 MIGHT RUN AT MABEY 20 MHZ... MABEY THIS WOULD BE IN THE INSTRUCTION SHEET ON THE 24541B BOARD... BOB LAAG From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 18 12:51:24 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:51:24 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat> <003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> <005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050518125007.05092960@mail> At 12:29 PM 5/18/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >For ROM images just a binary (or hex) file is sufficient since there is no formatting involved. >The only information needed would be a description of what the heck it is. I kind of like the idea of the metadata being a quick scan of the label of the ROM or the label of the floppy. Does FutureKeep's format allow for metadata composed of a picture of the object or a picture of the label? - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed May 18 13:01:01 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <428B82DD.3000608@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: > I was/am trying to get away from the multitude of incompatable 5.25" > formats. By installing the 3.5" drives with Turborom that allowed > me to have only one media (3.5") and at most three formats on that > media (781k CP/M, 720k CP/M, 720K dos-PC) which is my sanity set > that all my machines can do directly at the media level and > programtically using applications. Crap, I hit "Send" instead of Shift. I agree, to a certain point. The systems I have that came to me in factory original shape, I like to leave that way if possible. To an extent I like to stick with "contemporary" mods in any case, but there are a lot of architectures that have always begged (and received) ongoing hacking. Amigas and most any CP/M system are good examples. And the missing footnote from the first reply: ** He's up for grabs anyway. 22 years old, bigger than me, and contrary as hell. :) Doc From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 13:01:04 2005 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:01:04 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <200505181707.j4IH7aWL023330@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505181707.j4IH7aWL023330@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <428B82E0.8090705@xs4all.nl> > >Hi All > Here is another request. I'm looking for at least the >pinouts for the following parts made by Western Digital >( I think ): > > WD1100V-01 > WD1100V-03 > WD1100V-04 > WD1100V-05 > WD1100V-12 > > Like http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/divcomp/doc/hdc1100-x.pdf ? These SMC parts are pin compatible (second source?) of the Western Digital originals. > These have various functions related to disk I/O. > > > >Thanks >Dwight > Greetings, Fred Jan From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed May 18 13:06:24 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:06:24 +0100 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050518184654.04c873b0@pop.freeserve.net> At 22:28 17/05/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why we >didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should >perhaps be "Personal Computer". The companies I used to work for sold the BOS operating system.. Although it initially ran on intentionally multi-user systems, it was entirely possible to run multi-user on any supported hardware with enough serial ports for users - including and specifically actual IBM PC "Personal Computers" .. (I had definitely encountered 5 user systems in use on 8086/8088 based machines, though there weren't many left that old even when I started.) The worst processor/user ratio I think I encountered was about 50 users sharing a 486dx50.. It was in a rack case, in the top 6" of a 4' rack, the rest being blocked in empty space except for a UPS sat in the bottom. The users most definitely called it "the mainframe" ! Rob. From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Wed May 18 10:24:52 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:24:52 -0400 Subject: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay In-Reply-To: <200505181707.j4IH7Ei1023290@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505181707.j4IH7Ei1023290@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <428B5E44.6040806@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I have 3 11/60's here and have been looking for the manuals for over a year. I do have the Processor Tech. manual which I have PDF if someone wants it. I Have the chassis manual that I found some where on the Web. I would think that if Al wants these, then there is no reason to bid up the items. - Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>... Hi all, there are several documentation items up for auction on eBay, and most of them have a bid. However, I do not recognize all the bidders. I know al_kossow :~) , but is ak6dn also on this list? I do not want to bid against somebody who is also on ClassicCmp, but do want a copy of that documentation because I will own an 11/60 in a few weeks. If "ak6dn" is not on this list I will go for them! I am quite sure I will need the doc as I will not take the whole system (corporate cabinet), but only the CPU and I/O box and the two power supplies plus wiring harness. State of the system: unknown! so the maintenance print set is most welcome. If somebody else on this list has 11/60 documentation available, which is not on bitsavers, let me know! Perhaps we can work something out ... I am prepared to pay part of the winning bids if I can get access to the documentation: in paper to scan it, or digital. I hope it is not too much against ethics. I let somebody win the auction, and when the bidder *owns* the stuff, he is free to make it accessible ... I don't want to start a recent thread all over again. thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 13:22:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another part data sheet request Message-ID: <200505181822.LAA22445@clulw009.amd.com> Thanks Fred Jan This is just what I'm looking for. I should make good progress on figuring this beast out. Dwight >From: "Fred Jan Kraan" > >> >>Hi All >> Here is another request. I'm looking for at least the >>pinouts for the following parts made by Western Digital >>( I think ): >> >> WD1100V-01 >> WD1100V-03 >> WD1100V-04 >> WD1100V-05 >> WD1100V-12 >> >> >Like >http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/divcomp/d oc/hdc1100-x.pdf >? >These SMC parts are pin compatible (second source?) of the Western >Digital originals. > >> These have various functions related to disk I/O. >> >> >> >>Thanks >>Dwight >> >Greetings, > >Fred Jan > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 13:30:02 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:30:02 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <428B89AA.9020503@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: >>The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the end. >>Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? > > Ahh, no not at the time. I've just tried it now though and it seems > remarkably good at recovering from corruption in the TOC area. Actually, > looking at the zip file it appears to have something resembling a file > header before each file in the archive as well as the TOC at the end. As long as we're talking about fault-tolerant archives, neither TAR nor ZIP are acceptable. For years I've used RAR (WinRAR for windows, RAR and RAR32 for DOS) which has "recovery record" support (parity info). A "recovery record" usually burns about 1% additional space (configurable up to 10%) but can completely recover mangled compressed data if the errors are small enough (ie no more than 512 bytes at a time, at a certain minimum distance from the next error, etc.). For larger archives, RAR supports parity *files*, so if you split a large archive into, say, 10 parts and 3 recovery files, you can lose up to any 3 of all 13 files and still be able to recover everything. I do this when archiving data to DVD-R and it has saved my butt once (BOTH DVD sets got bitrot because of a flood). ZIP was never built to be fault tolerant, and trying to recover a mangled TAR file goes completely pants if the TAR has other TARs inside it. There *are* tools that generate parity information for archive files that don't have it themselves... The generated files look like *.PAR. Unfortunately I don't recall the names of them, but a quick google should find them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 18 13:45:36 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:45:36 -0400 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> <428B89AA.9020503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <17035.36176.839526.81587@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: Jim> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the >>> end. Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? >> Ahh, no not at the time. I've just tried it now though and it >> seems remarkably good at recovering from corruption in the TOC >> area. Actually, looking at the zip file it appears to have >> something resembling a file header before each file in the archive >> as well as the TOC at the end. Jim> As long as we're talking about fault-tolerant archives, neither Jim> TAR nor ZIP are acceptable. For years I've used RAR (WinRAR for Jim> windows, RAR and RAR32 for DOS) which has "recovery record" Jim> support (parity info). ... If you want fault tolerance, it may be a good idea to learn the topic of "erasure codes" -- a general concept for way to split data into N+K pieces such that you can reconstruct the data from any N pieces (for N and K chosen to be whatever you wish). VMS also implemented the XOR thing you mentioned in the BACKUP utility (as did RSTS, of course -- since it supports the same format). paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 18 13:48:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:48:20 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost> <001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy> <1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain> <1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat><003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy> <1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat> <1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain> <005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1116442100.27396.53.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 12:29 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Jules Richardson" > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:00 AM > > > > On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 08:13 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > Personally I think it's achievable, providing we stick to worrying about > > floppies at the moment. Tapes, hard drives, ROM images etc. can come > > later - doubtless they'd share some field names, but the structure is > > sufficiently* different that it's too much to take on in a first cut. > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > For ROM images just a binary (or hex) file is sufficient since there is no > formatting involved. > > The only information needed would be a description of what the heck it is. > > If we were smart (a long stretch) ;) Description's one thing, date would be another, plus checksum info I suppose. Plus for these kinds of things it probably makes sense to store the name of the person who created the image, and the tool they used to do so (can be handy to have the latter for times when a release of a tool is found to be broken) Plus one ROM archive might be intended to be spread across several physical chips in some way. I've certainly got ROM images saved from 32- bit machines where four physical 8-bit chips are accessed in parallel. For the native machine they're accessed that way; for browsing in a hex editor or maybe use with an emulator, it'd be handy to have them as a linear sequence of bytes. Maybe for that reason some essence of the data organisation also needs to be captured in the image archive... This is just off the top of my head; there may be other things, or some/all of these might be wrong. But it does seem to suggest that there might be more useful stuff to capture in a ROM image file than just a chunk of raw data and a freeform description... > Papertapes generally come in two flavors: Text or binary, please note hex > tapes are text files. The leading and trailing nulls should be stripped but > the data should be kept the same i.e hex tapes should stay hex and not > converted to binary. I have seen people store hex data as binary which > strips load address data plus with Intel hex it is possible to load > different segments which gets lost when converted to binary. Sure - I'm no expert at all on tapes! Possibly there are other things that'd be usefully captured in a suite of image formats one day - PAL chips maybe, or even documentation scans. It's not reinventing the wheel if it actually adds useful stuff over and above what's currently available of course :-) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 14:08:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:08:54 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050518184654.04c873b0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050518184654.04c873b0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On 5/18/05, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > The worst processor/user ratio I think I encountered was about 50 users > sharing a 486dx50.. It was in a rack case, in the top 6" of a 4' rack, the > rest being blocked in empty space except for a UPS sat in the bottom. The > users most definitely called it "the mainframe" ! Worst processor/user ratio for PeeCee-class equipment, or on a per-cycle basis? We used to routinely put 40-60 users on our VAX-11/750 (0.6 VUPs, 8MB of RAM, *roughly* the same CPU horsepower as an 8MHz 68000, but with broad I/O channels). When more than 50% of our users were active, memory was a problem. We used to have to encourage people not to sit in MAIL or MASS-11 (word processor app) because even with shared code segments (each user maintained their own swappable store), more than about a dozen users sitting idle in those apps would absorb most of the free memory. We used that machine for intra-company e-mail, sales letters, and software development (in-house assemblers, Whitesmith's C, VAX-C...), and product testing. _That_ was by all standards of the day, a mini, not a micro. Later machines had much faster processors, and somewhat more memory, but the I/O architectures of those later machines were much more sparse. Three 32-bit I/O channels (MASSBUS), and a 16-bit asynch I/O bus (Unibus) trumps much of the early PC era substantially. So in the great mini-vs-micro debate, once one is talking about later 16 and 32-bit minis (early 12 and 16-bit minis do tend to have one medium-performance I/O bus), I'd have to say that I/O architecture has as much to do with the definition as the number of processors. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 14:12:05 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:12:05 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 lamp test In-Reply-To: <000901c55bcf$53740f00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <200505180503.j4I53G6s014481@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000901c55bcf$53740f00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 5/18/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > > Try this: > > > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > > 001002 000001 > > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > This is the one I mentioned - it runs too fast to allow the filaments to > light on the 11/45. I guess it was meant for an 11/70 (with LED's on the > console, instead of bulbs). I'll have to keep this one around for when I get time to restore that 11/70 front panel I got from Jay (dead/missing switches, but all the lights are there - I have some C&W switches that will electrically fit, with narrow paddles, but the mounting frame is *entirely* different) (of course, I might try out that panel with my 'real console' first, once I get that built) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 14:17:26 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:17:26 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: <006101c55bcf$c5aec3d0$b33dd7d1@randy> References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <006101c55bcf$c5aec3d0$b33dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On 5/18/05, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > The Kaypro '84 is different from the earlier (often refered to as '83) and > the ROMs & boot disks are not compatible between them. I have a dim memory of searching my Kaypro for a differentiating factor when I was talking with Don Maslin years ago. He was able to help me ID which disk was appropriate, and send me one. which is, unfortunately, not with the Kaypro :-( I haven't had much to say about the CP/M archive, but as I do have a few machines (Kaypro and S-100), I have an interest in what happens. Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't start a parallel archive, just in case, at least of some of the more common formats. It would be a life's work (literally) to build an archive as extensive as Don's, but for most of us here, I would think that a dozen or two disks would meet most of our needs (Kaypro, Osbourne, NorthStar...) I have no strong opinion about disk archiving format, as long as there's a way to reconstitute disks. Yes, I know that one might have to keep around an ancient DOS box, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't see why one can't/shouldn't keep around one mini-tower with a network card and a sub-gig disk and a 5.25" floppy. If one is dabbling in CP/M, one probably has space for one commodity PC to remake disks. If nothing else, I will keep one around for the existing base of teledisk-imaged DECmate II and Pro3xx RX50s. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 18 14:19:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:19:17 -0400 Subject: mini versus micro? References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050518184654.04c873b0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <17035.38197.224684.363331@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 5/18/05, Rob O'Donnell Ethan> wrote: >> The worst processor/user ratio I think I encountered was about 50 >> users sharing a 486dx50.. It was in a rack case, in the top 6" of >> a 4' rack, the rest being blocked in empty space except for a UPS >> sat in the bottom. The users most definitely called it "the >> mainframe" ! Ethan> Worst processor/user ratio for PeeCee-class equipment, or on a Ethan> per-cycle basis? We used to routinely put 40-60 users on our Ethan> VAX-11/750 (0.6 VUPs, 8MB of RAM, *roughly* the same CPU Ethan> horsepower as an 8MHz 68000, but with broad I/O channels). How about an 11/20 RSTS V4A timesharing system (maybe 0.1 MIPS with a tailwind) running up to about 12 users -- several of whom would be doing statistical analysis runs? (And to make matters worse, typically those were clueless timesink runs like "crosstabulate all by all" on a survey database with maybe 40-50 questions in it, mostly unrelated...) RK05 system disk (at 11 microseconds per word transfer rate) and RF11 swapping disk (15 microseconds per word -- but no seeks). 28 kWords memory, of course. Then again, that system had a mean time between crashes of about a day. It got better when we upgraded to an 11/45 running RSTS/E. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 14:21:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:03 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <42897128.3010000@oldskool.org> <20050517112642.E850@localhost><001e01c55b1c$2002bf30$f23cd7d1@randy><1116363878.25648.64.camel@weka.localdomain><1116367583.2575.18.camel@wombat><003601c55b30$1118c140$cd3cd7d1@randy><1116422012.4756.6.camel@wombat><1116424820.27396.16.camel@weka.localdomain><005401c55bcf$310d99e0$b33dd7d1@randy> <1116442100.27396.53.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000c01c55bde$bf1c08c0$f83cd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 1:48 PM > On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 12:29 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> From: "Jules Richardson" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:00 AM >> For ROM images just a binary (or hex) file is sufficient since there is >> no >> formatting involved. >> >> The only information needed would be a description of what the heck it >> is. >> >> If we were smart (a long stretch) > > ;) > > Description's one thing, date would be another, plus checksum info I > suppose. Plus for these kinds of things it probably makes sense to store > the name of the person who created the image, and the tool they used to > do so (can be handy to have the latter for times when a release of a > tool is found to be broken) > > Plus one ROM archive might be intended to be spread across several > physical chips in some way. I've certainly got ROM images saved from 32- > bit machines where four physical 8-bit chips are accessed in parallel. > For the native machine they're accessed that way; for browsing in a hex > editor or maybe use with an emulator, it'd be handy to have them as a > linear sequence of bytes. Maybe for that reason some essence of the data > organisation also needs to be captured in the image archive... > > This is just off the top of my head; there may be other things, or > some/all of these might be wrong. But it does seem to suggest that there > might be more useful stuff to capture in a ROM image file than just a > chunk of raw data and a freeform description... > >> Papertapes generally come in two flavors: Text or binary, please note >> hex >> tapes are text files. The leading and trailing nulls should be stripped >> but >> the data should be kept the same i.e hex tapes should stay hex and not >> converted to binary. I have seen people store hex data as binary which >> strips load address data plus with Intel hex it is possible to load >> different segments which gets lost when converted to binary. > > Sure - I'm no expert at all on tapes! Possibly there are other things > that'd be usefully captured in a suite of image formats one day - PAL > chips maybe, or even documentation scans. It's not reinventing the wheel > if it actually adds useful stuff over and above what's currently > available of course :-) > > cheers > > Jules Multi-part ROM's can be backed up as either the whole or as pieces as long as it is documented. The tools used to extract the data doesn't sound important to me. On many early boards bipolar PROM were used as PAL's. All programmable devices data should be backed up when possible. Using one manufacturer as an example - Cromemco used bipolar PROMs and made their own numbers - 749XX. This makes it confusing but easy to spot when seen. They would use the chips on multiple boards keeping the same programming by chipnumber i.e. 74901 could be used on a floppy controller or memory card and still be interchangeable (I just made up an example but I've seen common 749XX across different types of cards). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctech at randy482.com Wed May 18 14:40:43 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:40:43 -0500 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><006101c55bcf$c5aec3d0$b33dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <002d01c55be1$7e821270$f83cd7d1@randy> From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:17 PM > On 5/18/05, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> The Kaypro '84 is different from the earlier (often refered to as '83) >> and >> the ROMs & boot disks are not compatible between them. > > I have a dim memory of searching my Kaypro for a differentiating > factor when I was talking with Don Maslin years ago. He was able to > help me ID which disk was appropriate, and send me one. which is, > unfortunately, not with the Kaypro :-( > > I haven't had much to say about the CP/M archive, but as I do have a > few machines (Kaypro and S-100), I have an interest in what happens. > Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't start a parallel archive, > just in case, at least of some of the more common formats. It would > be a life's work (literally) to build an archive as extensive as > Don's, but for most of us here, I would think that a dozen or two > disks would meet most of our needs (Kaypro, Osbourne, NorthStar...) > > I have no strong opinion about disk archiving format, as long as > there's a way to reconstitute disks. Yes, I know that one might have > to keep around an ancient DOS box, but in the grand scheme of things, > I don't see why one can't/shouldn't keep around one mini-tower with a > network card and a sub-gig disk and a 5.25" floppy. If one is > dabbling in CP/M, one probably has space for one commodity PC to > remake disks. If nothing else, I will keep one around for the > existing base of teledisk-imaged DECmate II and Pro3xx RX50s. > > -ethan For Kaypro's there are two factors in finding the right boot disk: Boot rom number and whether it is single or double sided. For early Kaypros it requires removing the cover, later they included version info in the startup screen. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 14:44:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:44:34 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: <428B82DD.3000608@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <0IGO00BKJW4HIF97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518154434.009d2100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:01 PM 5/18/05 -0500, Doc wrote: > > And the missing footnote from the first reply: > >** He's up for grabs anyway. 22 years old, bigger than me, and contrary >as hell. :) He sounds like a good candidate for the US Army. Mine knew it ALL so he ended up in the USMC. That took the wind out of his sails! :-) Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 15:01:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:01:13 -0500 Subject: what's an 11/75? Message-ID: <009301c55be4$584f72c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've been offered two 11/75's. I can't seem to find information on them. Are these Qbus machines, micro11 stuff? Or are they the bigger unibus stuff. Typically deskside towers or rackmount boxes? They are model # 173QA-B2 I've googled and can't find a picture either :\ Depending on what else is in the load, I may take it. If nothing piques my interest I'll pass it on to the list. Jay From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 18 15:05:10 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:05:10 -0500 Subject: what's an 11/75? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0E7EB42F@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200505182004.j4IK4dkx027381@dewey.classiccmp.org> I think these may be ruggedized 11/73 machines. I believe I saw a reference to them somewhere on the internet once, but I can't remember where. I'll see if I can dig up the link. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: what's an 11/75? > > I've been offered two 11/75's. I can't seem to find > information on them. Are these Qbus machines, micro11 stuff? > Or are they the bigger unibus stuff. > Typically deskside towers or rackmount boxes? > > They are model # 173QA-B2 > > I've googled and can't find a picture either :\ > > Depending on what else is in the load, I may take it. If > nothing piques my interest I'll pass it on to the list. > > Jay > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 15:05:24 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:05:24 -0500 Subject: pdp11/45 blinkyprogram? References: <000501c55b2d$9fa08400$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000401c55bcf$1a8663a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009e01c55be4$edb2b430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Yes, but it's at work (with the 11/45). I'll bring it home tomorrow. > > There is one on the web, but it won't work on an 11/45 I'd love a copy, thanks! So in my quest to understand some of the DEC documentation.... I'm wondering if an equivalent to this HP item exists in the DEC world. In the HP CE goldbook, there's a lot of little machine language ditty's that are meant to be a quick test of memory, or a particular board, etc. Basically if you have no diags or input device, you can at least try some of the tests via the front panel and run those. Surely DEC had something similar. Where would I look for this type of thing? I was hoping to do some basic confidence tests on the 11/45 before getting peripherals cleaned and hooked up. Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 15:10:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:10:49 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <17035.36176.839526.81587@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> <428B89AA.9020503@oldskool.org> <17035.36176.839526.81587@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <428BA149.1000408@oldskool.org> Paul Koning wrote: > If you want fault tolerance, it may be a good idea to learn the topic > of "erasure codes" -- a general concept for way to split data into N+K > pieces such that you can reconstruct the data from any N pieces (for N > and K chosen to be whatever you wish). Yes, that's what I already wrote about in my previous post :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 15:15:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:15:18 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > can handle tar files... "Portable" is in the eye of the beholder. Both formats don't support sizes over 4 gigabytes (unsigned 32-bit dword) so I don't use them any more. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 15:12:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050518144500.6423670C772D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > guess this is sort of related to the 'dead media project' > > has anything more happened with the revival of that? Coming right up... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dundas at caltech.edu Wed May 18 15:16:31 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's an 11/75? Message-ID: <1624132723dundas@caltech.edu> Jay, > I've been offered two 11/75's. Looks like a typo. > They are model # 173QA-B2 Sounds like an 11/73, Qbus system, but just a guess. John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 18 15:18:08 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:18:08 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? References: <009301c55be4$584f72c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17035.41728.853717.226342@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> I've been offered two 11/75's. I can't seem to find information Jay> on them. Are these Qbus machines, micro11 stuff? Or are they the Jay> bigger unibus stuff. Typically deskside towers or rackmount Jay> boxes? Jay> They are model # 173QA-B2 Jay> I've googled and can't find a picture either :\ I told Google "173QA" and got a few hits, one of them is this: -173QA-B2 11/73-B SBB 512KB MOS 120V USN 07-Nov-88 M NAN 966400 27-Jul-95 Y X N VVV -173QA-B3 11/73-B SBB 512KB MOS 240V USN 07-Nov-88 M RDN 966400 27-Jul-95 Y X N VVV I'm not sure what that list is; it looks vaguely like the option/module list but perhaps not. URL is http://www.xenya.si/sup/ceniki/digital/USN2709.PFD paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 18 15:26:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:26:34 -0400 Subject: pdp11/45 blinkyprogram? References: <000501c55b2d$9fa08400$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000401c55bcf$1a8663a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <009e01c55be4$edb2b430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17035.42234.376067.249108@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> Jim wrote.... >> Yes, but it's at work (with the 11/45). I'll bring it home >> tomorrow. >> >> There is one on the web, but it won't work on an 11/45 Jay> I'd love a copy, thanks! Jay> So in my quest to understand some of the DEC Jay> documentation.... I'm wondering if an equivalent to this HP item Jay> exists in the DEC world. In the HP CE goldbook, there's a lot of Jay> little machine language ditty's that are meant to be a quick Jay> test of memory, or a particular board, etc. Basically if you Jay> have no diags or input device, you can at least try some of the Jay> tests via the front panel and run those. Surely DEC had Jay> something similar. I don't remember any such thing. Perhaps people would do basic operations from the console switches -- see if memory appears to exist, that sort of thing. Here's a quick memory test: load address 157776, deposit 014747, load address 157776, start. Result is that all of memory (the lower 28 KW that is) will be filled with 014747. It will probably stop with PC = 0, but I'm not sure of that. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 15:28:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:28:41 -0500 Subject: Master archive was Re: Disk archival techniques References: Message-ID: <001201c55be8$31b59050$f43cd7d1@randy> On my site I've been working to archive everything I can on certain systems, as many others have done. Right now one of my many projects is the Cromemco series of computers. After consideration on this one project I've come to believe the following: All of the chips used in the computers need to have their datasheets archived. Many chips are now rare and documentation even more so. All of the manuals need to be archived, for all versions. All of the programmable info needs to be archived: PROMs to disks with everything in between including PAL's etc. For different systems there is a huge overlap: Most chips used on a Cromemco are also used in an Apple ][. For CP/M based systems much of the documentation and software is common between systems. What is needed is a way to link common parts between archives and not end up with the 404 error. I propose cross support: If you have a website like Jim's SOL-20 site that uses 2102's and you have the datasheet don't post it on your site, send it to Al at bitsavers and link to it. Keep a personal copy of all the needed datasheets on your personal system just in case bitsavers ever disappears. Is this heresy? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 15:29:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050518125007.05092960@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 12:29 PM 5/18/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >For ROM images just a binary (or hex) file is sufficient since there is no formatting involved. > >The only information needed would be a description of what the heck it is. > > I kind of like the idea of the metadata being a quick scan of > the label of the ROM or the label of the floppy. > > Does FutureKeep's format allow for metadata composed of a picture of > the object or a picture of the label? That's a new one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 15:33:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another part data sheet request Message-ID: <200505182033.NAA22562@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" ---snip--- > >>From: "Fred Jan Kraan" >> >>http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/divcomp/ doc/hdc1100-x.pdf Hi Others should explore this site and bookmark it. There are a lot of interesting things here. There is even some stuff for Intel ISIS and series II. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 15:37:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I haven't had much to say about the CP/M archive, but as I do have a > few machines (Kaypro and S-100), I have an interest in what happens. > Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't start a parallel archive, > just in case, at least of some of the more common formats. It would > be a life's work (literally) to build an archive as extensive as > Don's, but for most of us here, I would think that a dozen or two > disks would meet most of our needs (Kaypro, Osbourne, NorthStar...) I've heard a lot of people talking about this over the past couple days but no action. It doesn't take much to launch an archive. Jay already offered the digital space and the bandwidth. Someone should take a leadership role here. I would but I don't think I'm keen to add yet another project to my agenda. If everyone started contributing en masse to a parallel archive, what Don had could be duplicated in 6 months. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 15:43:21 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:43:21 +0100 Subject: what's an 11/75? In-Reply-To: <17035.41728.853717.226342@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001801c55bea$3bfb0a70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > I'm not sure what that list is; it looks vaguely like the > option/module list but perhaps not. URL is > http://www.xenya.si/sup/ceniki/digital/USN2709.PFD That looks like a report produced from the option/module list. I didn't let it load completely, but it looks like a late 2000ish vintage, so if it may well exceed 500k lines! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 15:44:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" ---snip--- > For years I've used RAR (WinRAR for windows, RAR and RAR32 for ---snip--- Hi It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR is useless for this purpose. I use ZIP files all the time but I would not use any of this stuff for the purpose of archiving. I surely wouldn't even consider a window application for archiving. Even things like error correction need to have their descriptions in the archive file. Do you expect to package a X86 simulator and WinRAR into a HTML like format with each of these compressed files? Back to reality folks! Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 15:46:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:46:25 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518164625.0094d8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have any information about this IC? I have two of them. I found them in the memory section of an Intel 8008 based computer. The other RAMs are Intel 1101s so I'm guessing that these are equivelent parts but I want to be sure. The date code on these is 7114 and they're white ceramic with gold lids and faint grey traces to each leg. Here is a picture of the board with the two ICs installed. The ICs in the top row are 1702 EPROMs. The 1101 RAMs are in the second row. These two parts are the 2nd and 3rd parts from the RH end. FWIW I have a 1970 and a 1973 Fairchild catalogs but neigher one lists any uA36xx parts. Joe From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 15:50:21 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:50:21 +0100 Subject: what's an 11/75? In-Reply-To: <17035.41728.853717.226342@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001901c55beb$36081a30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > I'm not sure what that list is; it looks vaguely like the > option/module list but perhaps not. URL is > http://www.xenya.si/sup/ceniki/digital/USN2709.PFD Actually, if you poke around and have a look higher up it looks like there might be a connection to a Russian (maybe) Riverstone reseller. There's a partial 1999 MDS here: /sup/info/digital/MDS Reminds me that I promised someone some data a little while ago ... must go and pass it along ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tomj at wps.com Wed May 18 15:57:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <428A5355.9080608@hachti.de> References: <42894F8E.5030509@hachti.de> <428954E0.6010004@Rikers.org> <4289577D.1090408@hachti.de> <428963FE.9040506@Rikers.org> <20050517124058.L850@localhost> <428A5355.9080608@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20050518132324.B2241@localhost> On Tue, 17 May 2005, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I have text. And I have a keyboard - on the ASR33, half duplex circuit > ...but what is ANIMALS? It's been so long since I've seen it I hoep I can describe it... a hex dump (!) of it came with the SWTPC 6800. It's a guessing game. It uses a lot of text [so non-techies like it] but does no text processing or handling [so toggle-switch programmers like it]. It's D U M B. There is a table containing related datums: ANIMAL NAME // QUESTION TO ASK FISH DOES IT SWIM CAT DOES IT MEOW BIRD DOES IT HAVE WINGS You can build in a few animals to start. It builds this by asking yes/no questions, and occasionally asking for new data. It's reasonably clever-seeming for a tiny program. It codes up in a few hundred instructions. Human input is either raw text stored in a table, or Y or N for decisions. computer: ARE YOU THINKING OF AN ANIMAL (Y, N): person: [N exits or restarts] Y computer: DOES IT SWIM? person: N computer: DOES IT MEOW? person: Y computer: IS IT A CAT? person: Y computer: GREAT! computer: ARE YOU THINKING OF AN ANIMAL (Y, N): ... If you get to the end of questions ("swim? meow? wings?") with all NOs then it asks for new data: computer: WHAT ANIMAL WERE YOU THINKING OF? person: ORANGUTANG computer: WHAT WOULD BE A GOOD QUESTION TO ASK? person: DOES IT FLING TURDS AT GAWKING VISITORS computer: THANK YOU computer: ARE YOU THINKING OF AN ANIMAL (Y, N): ... computer: DOES IT FLING TURDS AT GAWKING VISITORS? person: Y computer: IS IT AN ORANGUTANG? ... Ad nauseum. With an adult audience, the questions/answers tend towards the sexual and scatalogical (duh). There's a grossly over complex version in some dialect of BASIC here: http://www.animalgame.com/play/misc/source.php HA HA! The home page http://www.animalgame.com/ *IS* the ANIMALS game! Now that's weird... From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed May 18 16:04:19 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:04:19 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1116450260.4756.35.camel@wombat> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 13:44 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Jim Leonard" > ---snip--- > > For years I've used RAR (WinRAR for windows, RAR and RAR32 for > ---snip--- > > Hi > It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives > are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to > future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR > is useless for this purpose. While I agree with the rar thing, I'm going to disagree below. > I use ZIP files all the time but I would not use any of > this stuff for the purpose of archiving. I surely wouldn't > even consider a window application for archiving. > Even things like error correction need to have their > descriptions in the archive file. Do you expect to package > a X86 simulator and WinRAR into a HTML like format with > each of these compressed files? Back to reality folks! > Dwight > > Two things have to be taken into account, however: * how practical is it to use the archive? Putting it into a currently-standardish format is acceptable for the medium term. There is no format which will withstand eternity, so as long as it can be used NOW and for the foreseeable future it can be converted later. Zip files (or tar) won't be around forever, but how long has it been since you could buy half of the machines we've all got? (heh, its been more than 10 years...) So while the format may become obsolete, its not going to disappear overnight. * how far does one have to go before you've gone to far? That's a bit zen, but I think its an important question to ask. Brian From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 16:13:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool and simple ideas needed! In-Reply-To: <20050518132324.B2241@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > computer: ARE YOU THINKING OF AN ANIMAL (Y, N): > ... > computer: DOES IT FLING TURDS AT GAWKING VISITORS? > person: Y > computer: IS IT AN ORANGUTANG? > ... > > > Ad nauseum. With an adult audience, the questions/answers tend > towards the sexual and scatalogical (duh). "Adult" used in this context is ironically oxymoronic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 16:19:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:19:05 -0500 Subject: what's an 11/75? References: <1624132723dundas@caltech.edu> Message-ID: <003501c55bef$38e3c610$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote... > Sounds like an 11/73, Qbus system, but just a guess. ugg... last thing in the world I need are more qbus BA23 type systems :| Maybe some interesting peripherals, we'll see. Jay From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 18 16:27:15 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:27:15 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A36@sbs.jdfogg.com> > John wrote... > > Sounds like an 11/73, Qbus system, but just a guess. > > ugg... last thing in the world I need are more qbus BA23 type > systems :| Maybe some interesting peripherals, we'll see. Well if you don't, others might (I would take one if its in the North East US). From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 18 16:26:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:26:44 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? References: <17035.41728.853717.226342@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001901c55beb$36081a30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <17035.45844.385764.751356@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: Antonio> Paul Koning wrote: >> I'm not sure what that list is; it looks vaguely like the >> option/module list but perhaps not. URL is >> http://www.xenya.si/sup/ceniki/digital/USN2709.PFD Antonio> Actually, if you poke around and have a look higher up it Antonio> looks like there might be a connection to a Russian (maybe) Antonio> Riverstone reseller. "si" is Slovenia... paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 16:42:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A2D@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A2D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050518144115.T23559@shell.lmi.net> > > > Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. > > What if you're posting from an Model 28 teletype? > > (HINT) On Wed, 18 May 2005, James Fogg wrote: > Or an Apple ][+ ? The TRS-80 also required a [trivial] modification to get lower case. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 16:52:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505182152.OAA22579@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brian Wheeler" ---snip--- > >Putting it into a currently-standardish format is acceptable for the >medium term. There is no format which will withstand eternity, so as >long as it can be used NOW and for the foreseeable future it can be >converted later. Hi Brian Even the choice of using ASCII is in question. With more and more things being used world wide, I expect to see information stored in a meta translatable language. This would be something that could be entered in any language and then print out in any other. It would not just be a word translator but also include phases and even slang. I see ASCII as having a limited lifetime right now. Still, for the archives, one needs to keep things as simple as one can and still try to include enough information ( not encrypted ) to recreate the original. It is a task that Sellam has taken. He has made a great start on it. Personal archives are a different thing. I zip stuff myself. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 18 17:00:29 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:00:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Price of gasoline in Ohio Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> Headin' to Dayton tomorrow morn, and I have to fill up the truck tonite. I have *just enough* range to get to the Ohio border on a tank of gas, and I'm wondering if I should fuel up in Michigan or Ohio... [[ The fact that I'm durned near 400 miles from the border... not too bad for a fullsize truck... ]] What's the ballpark price o'gas per gallon south of the Michigan border? I formally apologize to Jay for this offtopic drivel, but hey -- not nearly so offtopic as some stuff... ;-) Speaking thereof, you gonna make it, Jay? I still need to buy you a couple'o'beers... ;^> Oh, and sounds like a go for supper with the classiccmp gang on Friday nite -- I'll have a tagalong, shouldn't be a problem, eh? Replies offlist, please! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 18 17:01:08 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050517140821.GB34506@outpost.timeguy.com> References: <200505162038.j4GKbDr6085982@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050517140821.GB34506@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <200505182203.SAA29655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm trying to help a friend locate a replacement tape drive wheel for > an HP 9144 tape drive. [...] He's been working to recover some > archived files from the beginnings of the company he works for, > mostly for historical interest, [...] I don't know the 9144 number. If that's a QIC drive, I (and probably numerous other listmembers) have drives that might well work to read the data, if your friend is willing to trust someone else with copies of the data (as seems likely since you say "historical interest"). Where are the tapes physically? We might be lucky and find that someone willing and able is close by.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sieler at allegro.com Wed May 18 17:03:54 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:03:54 -0700 Subject: Sniping (was Re: Vax 4000/90) In-Reply-To: <20050515204351.5a2e18bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <428B595A.32444.15DC7F@localhost> Some info about sniping, from an eBay employee... > If ebay wanted to take advantage of the sniping phenomenon correctly, > they would figure out a mechanism to bring it into their system, or ... Yes, they could. I was told (about 3 years ago) that they developed the code to do it, but never enabled it. Last week, an eBay employee told me something about such anti-sniping proposals: they put eBay closer to the auctioneer position, which they DO NOT want to be in. (There are rules/laws governing auctioneers, apparently, which they don't fit.) His claim was that by auto-extending an auction, it becomes the kind of auction subject to those rules. By simply having a hard cutoff based on the clock, they're avoiding that problem. It sounded plausible. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From allain at panix.com Wed May 18 17:10:49 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:10:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Adaptec EasyCD v4 Proof of Idiocy References: <200505182152.OAA22579@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001d01c55bf6$73528f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> OT and potentially illegal* so reply offline. The 'Proof of idiocy' is mine. I tried to reinstall Adaptec EasyCD v4 (1999) this afternoon and discovered that I idiotically lost the box with it's install code (TSID). I have a number of original materials here, CD, manual, etc but not the box or the ID from it. If anyone has an install code for this product, hopefully also obtained legally, could you please help me. * But it's not. I bought the product, I have the CD, I spent the money, I would like to proceed with this. Now we need 'Disk Box archival techniques' jeesh! John A. From sieler at allegro.com Wed May 18 17:13:02 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:13:02 -0700 Subject: Magnetic tape archiving (was Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050518144003.721CF70C7725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <428B5B7E.25269.1E3769@localhost> Re: > The big thing missing from the '.tap' format is it assumes all the blocks are > good. There is no way to describe a partially read block, or to encode any of > the CRC or LRC check data that was in the tape block on the physical medium. Ties in with problems I posted about last year in .tap :) I have my own tape archiver (written on an HP 3000 under MPE/iX). For each record read I record: # bytes any error information (if any) Setmark (if any) (for DDS) EOF (if any) EOT (if any) (And, I optionally compress the tape data, on a per-record basis, to minimize .tap file size.) At the start of the .tap file is a header, which records the maximum read size I was issuing ... that's *important* beause with many tape devices, if you have a record of N bytes and ask to read K (where K < N) bytes, you'll silently lose data. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Wed May 18 17:14:09 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:14:09 -0700 Subject: HP3000 series 30 and III on ebay In-Reply-To: <200505161839.j4GIdqFu025350@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20050516171707.5BA7070C7449@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <428B5BC1.27794.1F3DDD@localhost> Re: > On the series III, the auction states: "The interior compartments are > full of empty card cages." And one of the photos has the flash going For the Series 30, the seller claims the back panel is locked, and he can't look inside. I suspect it's stripped, too. Al: I have a Series 30 waiting for me at a friend's house in L.A. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 18 17:15:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:15:20 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? Message-ID: <0IGP00B8VHSFIJH8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: what's an 11/75? > From: "Jay West" > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:01:13 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've been offered two 11/75's. I can't seem to find information on them. Are >these Qbus machines, micro11 stuff? Or are they the bigger unibus stuff. >Typically deskside towers or rackmount boxes? > >They are model # 173QA-B2 > >I've googled and can't find a picture either :\ > >Depending on what else is in the load, I may take it. If nothing piques my >interest I'll pass it on to the list. First appearance of the J11 CPU on the Qbus. It's a decently fast Qbus 11. I have one. Allison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 18 17:13:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200505182219.SAA29803@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If [zip] *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives >> over tar, [...] > "Portable" is in the eye of the beholder. Both formats don't support > sizes over 4 gigabytes (unsigned 32-bit dword) so I don't use them > any more. The tar limit is actually 077777777777, which is 8 gig. (That's not to say that any particular *implementation* doesn't have a 4-gig limit, only that the *format* limit is higher.) You raise a good point. I'll have to add support to my tar for file sizes over 8G. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Wed May 18 17:22:39 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques // DEAD MEDIA PROJECT In-Reply-To: <20050518144500.6423670C772D@bitsavers.org> References: <20050518144500.6423670C772D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050518151707.C2241@localhost> On Wed, 18 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > guess this is sort of related to the 'dead media project' > > has anything more happened with the revival of that? I'm nominally in charge of it. It's looking for a willing victim, two people on this list expressed interest, I gave them both edged weapons, but I see no blood resulting from the intended fight over it. The Dead Media Project is in two parts; the visible part is the web archive. The less visible was the mailing list, that generated the content. The list has died (any puns thereof so overworked as to be unmentionable) and needs decision whether or not it's desirable, or possible, to revive it. There is some abysmal tech to convert emailed Notes into documents. There's an ad hoc database of Notes from which said abysmal perl code generates html. The website part is trivial, and done, if there is no list to drive it. It's in no more danger of lossage or decline than any other website. So there's no glory to be had, and a lot of work. True masochists only need apply (eg. you've flogged yourself before, and will do so for at least a year, say). http://www.deadmedia.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 18 17:23:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:23:23 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? Message-ID: <0IGP00BBEI5TIP79@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro II system disk? > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:30:08 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: Kaypro II system disk? >>>From: "Doc Shipley" >>>Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:20 AM >>> >>> >>> >>>> Apropos to the discussion of Don Maslin's archives, I need a bootable >>>>disk image for a Kaypro II with the Advent TurboROM (Plu*Perfect Systems) >>>>The Advent hard disk formatter would be a plus, but right now I'd be happy >>>>just to boot CP/M on the thing. >>>> >>>> FWIW, it's got one original SSDD floppy drive, a Rodime 252F hard disk >>>>and an Advent .5MB RAM drive. It's the v3.0 TurboROM. >>>> >>>>Doc >> >> >> Doc did you ever get a disk? What drive(s) does that system have >> installed? >> >> I have A kaypro 4/84 I use with with Advent Turborom and Ramdisk >> however I have mine set up with some 3.5" drives. Mine doesn't >> have a host controller so no hard disk. I'd need to pull out one >> drive to set up the right drive to make a boot disk. I modded it >> years ago to improve functionality rather than preserve it as >> manufactured mostly as it was already not original. > > I would *happily* install a 3.5" floppy drive in this box, and >possibly ship you my firstborn** to boot, if it'll get this guy up and >running. As you said, the box is already heavily modded, and if I >understand correctly, the primary function of the TurboROM is to allow >more and larger disk formats. I have plenty of DSDD 3.5"floppies, too. But you can't. To use 3.5" drives with turbrom you also need the advent personality card. I had to make mine. Otherwise you are limited to a smaller set of possible formats. > It would be nice to have the HDD formatter, but that's not an >immediate concern. With the Rodime dying, I will have to find a "new" >MFM disk for it anyway. I don't have the formatter for that. The rodime I believe is the same as a ST225 which is a better drive. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 18 17:25:32 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:25:32 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? Message-ID: <0IGP004GOI9EC1KB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Kaypro II system disk? > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:40:43 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >From: "Ethan Dicks" >Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 2:17 PM > > > >For Kaypro's there are two factors in finding the right boot disk: Boot rom >number and whether it is single or double sided. For early Kaypros it >requires removing the cover, later they included version info in the startup >screen. > >Randy You forget if it has one of two version of Turborom and if the personality card is present. then there are many more formats. Allison From tomj at wps.com Wed May 18 17:26:05 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050518152353.S2241@localhost> Hey Bob, Tell us about the nifty operating General Automation minicomputers you have there! That will make Sellam not mind the upper case so much :-) On Tue, 17 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:58:20 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? > > On Tue, 17 May 2005, John Allain wrote: > >> From: BOB LAAG >>> THE DUAL SERIAL BOARDS THAT WERE IN MY H.P. VECTRA 286 DON'T SEEM >>> TO WORK ON THE 386 OR LATER FOR SOME REASON... IS THERE A REASON >>> THAT ANYONE REMEMBERS OR A WAY AROUND THIS??? BOB LAAG, RIVERSIDE, >> >> Try pressing the shift key. That may fix it. > > What if you're posting from an Model 28 teletype? > > (HINT) > > From allain at panix.com Wed May 18 17:40:20 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:40:20 -0400 Subject: Adaptec EasyCD v4 Proof of Idiocy References: <200505182152.OAA22579@clulw009.amd.com> <001d01c55bf6$73528f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003601c55bfa$92bae280$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> (Blush) Actually I had and followed an archival strategy for this metadata, and, just found it. The migration path was sale box -> Jewel Box, Jewel Box cards -> file box. Jewel Box contents (CD) -> separate CD file book. All that in just 6 years. An interesting example, if bad. John A. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 18 17:45:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:45:45 +0100 Subject: what's an 11/75? In-Reply-To: <17035.45844.385764.751356@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002f01c55bfb$555d6470$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > Antonio> Actually, if you poke around and have a look higher > up it Antonio> looks like there might be a connection to a > Russian (maybe) Antonio> Riverstone reseller. > > "si" is Slovenia... IIRC there was just the one guy who did anywhere in non-Western Europe and the Middle East. Or, as we often used to tell him, anywhere where the odds of being shot sounded quite high :-) Having looked a little more closely at one of the excel files, it looks more like a price list. But a price list with dates as late as 2003 and yet still selling a 1091 (PDP-10!) and a PDP-11/04! The country list prices are staggering. I've no idea what the currency is but a VAX-11/750 comes in at about CUR 6M and a PDP-10 (1091) comes in at CUR 73M (i.e. over 10x the price). I wonder if they actually have either of those in stock ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 17:49:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:49:54 -0500 Subject: what's an 11/75? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A36@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <006101c55bfb$e8a12140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> James Fogg > Well if you don't, others might (I would take one if its in the North > East US). The two 11/75's plus peripherals plus RSX11M docs/media are in Maryland, close to DC. That northeast enough for you? :> Jay From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 18:03:02 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:03:02 -0500 Subject: Adaptec EasyCD v4 Proof of Idiocy References: <200505182152.OAA22579@clulw009.amd.com><001d01c55bf6$73528f00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <003601c55bfa$92bae280$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003401c55bfd$e8096330$753cd7d1@randy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Adaptec EasyCD v4 Proof of Idiocy > (Blush) > Actually I had and followed an archival strategy for this > metadata, and, just found it. The migration path was > sale box -> Jewel Box, > Jewel Box cards -> file box. > Jewel Box contents (CD) -> separate CD file book. > > All that in just 6 years. An interesting example, if bad. > > John A. FWIW: I use a sharpie to write it on the CD (I also make an ISO of the original CD's with dd and include the key in the filename). I found that having an ISO on my personal server has been handy. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 18 18:46:58 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:46:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Price of gasoline in Ohio In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: central OHIO: 1.95 northeastern: 2.05 nothwest might be close On 5/18/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Headin' to Dayton tomorrow morn, and I have to fill up the truck tonite. I > have *just enough* range to get to the Ohio border on a tank of gas, and > I'm wondering if I should fuel up in Michigan or Ohio... > > [[ The fact that I'm durned near 400 miles from the border... not too bad > for a fullsize truck... ]] > > What's the ballpark price o'gas per gallon south of the Michigan border? > > I formally apologize to Jay for this offtopic drivel, but hey -- not nearly > so offtopic as some stuff... ;-) Speaking thereof, you gonna make it, Jay? > I still need to buy you a couple'o'beers... ;^> > > Oh, and sounds like a go for supper with the classiccmp gang on Friday nite > -- I'll have a tagalong, shouldn't be a problem, eh? > > Replies offlist, please! > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed May 18 18:46:58 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:46:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Price of gasoline in Ohio In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: central OHIO: 1.95 northeastern: 2.05 nothwest might be close On 5/18/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Headin' to Dayton tomorrow morn, and I have to fill up the truck tonite. I > have *just enough* range to get to the Ohio border on a tank of gas, and > I'm wondering if I should fuel up in Michigan or Ohio... > > [[ The fact that I'm durned near 400 miles from the border... not too bad > for a fullsize truck... ]] > > What's the ballpark price o'gas per gallon south of the Michigan border? > > I formally apologize to Jay for this offtopic drivel, but hey -- not nearly > so offtopic as some stuff... ;-) Speaking thereof, you gonna make it, Jay? > I still need to buy you a couple'o'beers... ;^> > > Oh, and sounds like a go for supper with the classiccmp gang on Friday nite > -- I'll have a tagalong, shouldn't be a problem, eh? > > Replies offlist, please! > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed May 18 18:59:51 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:59:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Price of gasoline in Ohio In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <428BD6F7.6010800@internet1.net> Roger, Gas varies in Michigan. Here in town it's been about $2.13, but an hour away, where I work, it's been $1.99. I filled up today in town for $2.09, though. Indiana should be a few cents cheaper than Michigan, but you won't be in Indiana long if your picking up 80/90 from I-69. I have no idea about Ohio. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > Headin' to Dayton tomorrow morn, and I have to fill up the truck tonite. > I have *just enough* range to get to the Ohio border on a tank of gas, > and I'm wondering if I should fuel up in Michigan or Ohio... > > [[ The fact that I'm durned near 400 miles from the border... not too > bad for a fullsize truck... ]] > > What's the ballpark price o'gas per gallon south of the Michigan border? > > I formally apologize to Jay for this offtopic drivel, but hey -- not > nearly so offtopic as some stuff... ;-) Speaking thereof, you gonna make > it, Jay? I still need to buy you a couple'o'beers... ;^> > > Oh, and sounds like a go for supper with the classiccmp gang on Friday > nite -- I'll have a tagalong, shouldn't be a problem, eh? > > Replies offlist, please! > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 18 19:03:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:03:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Price of gasoline in Ohio In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050518174130.00b1fe30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 5/18/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Headin' to Dayton tomorrow morn, and I have to fill up the truck tonite. I > have *just enough* range to get to the Ohio border on a tank of gas, and > I'm wondering if I should fuel up in Michigan or Ohio... Dunno about NW Ohio, but in Columbus, it's been $1.86 - $1.92 for a few days... unfortunately, they have this habit in the area of jacking the price up as much as $0.30/gal on Thur/Fri, then letting it drift down over the week, hitting a low on Wed. I think it's an attempt to soak the paid-weekly crowd who have to wait until payday to get gas. -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 18 19:04:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:04:29 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? In-Reply-To: <0IGP00B8VHSFIJH8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGP00B8VHSFIJH8@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <428BD80D.nailM6F12TUVY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I've been offered two 11/75's. [...] model # 173QA-B2. According to the good book, 173QA-B2 is a KDJ11-BB, a BA23-A, a MSV11-PL5(512KB), configured to run on 120V. IOW, it's a 11/73, not a 11/75. Tim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 18 19:10:27 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:10:27 -0700 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? References: <3.0.6.32.20050518164625.0094d8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <428BD970.8003F472@cs.ubc.ca> I (too) can not find a reference for the uA3656 in the Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog (1975). However, I believe Fairchild's naming convention is that "uA..." would indicate analog or interface functionality. Speculation #1: If there are some connections from the uA3656 to the 1101s (or 1702s) (but not pin-for-pin parallelling) it may be a TTL<->MOS sense-amplifier/driver/level-converter. Early MOS memory chips used external drivers/sense amplifiers, and specialised ICs were produced for those functions. For example, I found Motorola refs for DS3645/75 (hex 3S latch driver for MOS mem), DS3647/77 (quad 3S MOS mem IO reg), MC3461 (dual NMOS Memory Sense Amp) (from Motorola Linear 1976). Perhaps it is from the Motorola DS36.. line, but second-sourced from Fairchild. Speculation #2: An A/D or D/A converter (perhaps connected to the nearby D connector?). BTW & FWIW: On your web page about the AMI S6800 (http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/ami/ami.htm), you wonder what the FCM7002 IC is. It is a clock/calendar chip, like those used in the 1970s for constructing digital clocks: the FCM7001 (aka CT7001) was a clock/calendar chip with multiplexed 6-digit 7-segment display outputs. If I have it correctly, on the FCM7002 the 7-segment outputs are replaced with BCD outputs. (... built a clock using the 7001, and saw the 7002 on a real-time-clock I/O board for the TI-990 in the late 1970s, must have been rather awkward for the board designers to interface.) "Joe R." wrote: > > Does anyone have any information about this IC? I have two of them. I > found them in the memory section of an Intel 8008 based computer. The other > RAMs are Intel 1101s so I'm guessing that these are equivelent parts but I > want to be sure. The date code on these is 7114 and they're white ceramic > with gold lids and faint grey traces to each leg. Here > is a picture of the > board with the two ICs installed. The ICs in the top row are 1702 EPROMs. > The 1101 RAMs are in the second row. These two parts are the 2nd and 3rd > parts from the RH end. FWIW I have a 1970 and a 1973 Fairchild catalogs but > neigher one lists any uA36xx parts. > > Joe From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 18 19:13:28 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:13:28 -0400 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" Message-ID: <428BDA28.nailM8D1FB110@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> In the 60's and 70's, there was an outfit called "American Used Computer" in Mass. Based on what I've seen, they took reject PDP-8's, -9's, -10's, -11's, Novas, etc., from dumpsters and tried to reconfigure them into saleable (maybe not workable!) systems. (Sort of the same way Poly Paks took cast-offs parts from the same companies and sold them.) Anyway, a truly classic picture of dozens of H960 racks filled with stuff and the proprietor is online if you go to http://www.nixiebunny.com/ and click on the picture at the "American Used Computer" link. By the time I was into this stuff, the outfit was long out of business, but my colleagues told legends about the mismatched boards they put together and tried to sell as complete working systems :-). Tim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 18 19:17:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <200505190017.RAA22622@clulw009.amd.com> Hi There is a good chance it is an interface part. Remember the 8008 bus is not TTL. Dwight >From: "Brent Hilpert" > >I (too) can not find a reference for the uA3656 in the Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog (1975). > >However, I believe Fairchild's naming convention is that "uA..." would indicate analog or interface functionality. > >Speculation #1: > If there are some connections from the uA3656 to the 1101s (or 1702s) (but not pin-for-pin parallelling) it may be a TTL<->MOS sense-amplifier/driver/level-converter. Early MOS memory chips used external drivers/sense amplifiers, and specialised ICs were produced for those functions. > > For example, I found Motorola refs for DS3645/75 (hex 3S latch driver for MOS mem), DS3647/77 (quad 3S MOS mem IO reg), MC3461 (dual NMOS Memory Sense Amp) (from Motorola Linear 1976). > > Perhaps it is from the Motorola DS36.. line, but second-sourced from Fairchild. > >Speculation #2: > An A/D or D/A converter (perhaps connected to the nearby D connector?). > > >BTW & FWIW: > On your web page about the AMI S6800 (http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/ami/ami.htm), you wonder what the FCM7002 IC is. >It is a clock/calendar chip, like those used in the 1970s for constructing digital clocks: the FCM7001 (aka CT7001) was a clock/calendar chip with multiplexed 6-digit 7-segment display outputs. If I have it correctly, on the FCM7002 the 7-segment outputs are replaced with BCD outputs. (... built a clock using the 7001, and saw the 7002 on a real-time-clock I/O board for the TI-990 in the late 1970s, must have been rather awkward for the board designers to interface.) > > >"Joe R." wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any information about this IC? I have two of them. I >> found them in the memory section of an Intel 8008 based computer. The other >> RAMs are Intel 1101s so I'm guessing that these are equivelent parts but I >> want to be sure. The date code on these is 7114 and they're white ceramic >> with gold lids and faint grey traces to each leg. Here >> is a picture of the >> board with the two ICs installed. The ICs in the top row are 1702 EPROMs. >> The 1101 RAMs are in the second row. These two parts are the 2nd and 3rd >> parts from the RH end. FWIW I have a 1970 and a 1973 Fairchild catalogs but >> neigher one lists any uA36xx parts. >> >> Joe > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 18 19:31:45 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> --- shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > In the 60's and 70's, there was an outfit called > "American Used Computer" I have a copy of their Winter 1978 catalog that I bought from William Donzelli a few months ago. I've been meaning to scan it... --Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 18:32:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517183257.M850@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at May 17, 5 06:37:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Or at least I am darn sure I could still make a crystal set the hard way > > The amazing thing some WWII POWs did was to make a radio detector > with a rusty blue razor blade and a short piece of pencil carbon. > Or was that some Poles. Poked around with the razor blade to hit > an actively-rectifying spot, ala galena cat's whisker. That's (partly) what I meany by 'the hard way'. Using a ready made diode is the easy way (although I'll bet a fair few so-called engineers couldn't make an AM receiver even using such a diode). Another detector that was tried was similar to the normal galena + cats whisker one, but using a lump of coke (the fuel, OK :-)) instead of the galena. Apparently if you get the right spot it'll work as a poor diode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 18:34:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:34:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517185550.E3225@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 17, 5 06:59:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > > > > undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > > > > were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > > > > It's worrying that I could do this before I even went to primary school... > > How can somebody even consider a career in "engineering" if they've never > even made their own flashlight ("torch" on the other side of the pond) Apparently, engineers don't make things, that's what technicians are for. While this may be true, I'd not accept an electrical engineer who couldn't light a bulb under such conditions... And we live in a world where curiousity is frowned upon. The whole idea of schools seems to be to remove curiousity from children -- fortunately they failed in my case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 18:39:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:39:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <200505180325.XAA18867@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 17, 5 11:17:50 pm Message-ID: > I know I can do that, because I have. Back in the late '70s, at the > University of Colorado, I took a computer hardware design course. It > was very hands-on, and the term project, if you will, was to construct > a small 4-bit computer from SSI/MSI TTL. (The most complex chips used > were an ALU - 74181, I think it was - and some static RAM.) Not much You remembered correctly, I think. The 74181 is, indeed a common TTL ALU chip. > memory space, 16 4-bit words, but fully functional within its design > limitations. IMHO every hacker with inclinations towards hardware should do something like this. Actually get the TTL chips and solder/wire-wrap them together. Doing it in an FPGA with schematic capture entry is a very poor substitute. Doing it in VHDL doesn't count at all!. You will soon discover that the most complicated part (to understand) of your project is the wire! > > > Mind you, these days most people can't even wire an RS232 cable and > > get it right.... > > Of course, it doesn't help that most equipment manufacturers can't wire > an RS232 connector and get it right (true almost regardless of your > definition of "right" in this context). It helps even less when some infernal manufacturer (e.g. HP with the 82164 HPIL-RS232 interface) does follow the standard exactly. Nobody else does so you have to go throuh all sorts of shenanigans to get that thing to talk to any other device... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 19:12:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:12:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <1116442100.27396.53.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 18, 5 06:48:20 pm Message-ID: > Plus one ROM archive might be intended to be spread across several > physical chips in some way. I've certainly got ROM images saved from 32- > bit machines where four physical 8-bit chips are accessed in parallel. > For the native machine they're accessed that way; for browsing in a hex > editor or maybe use with an emulator, it'd be handy to have them as a > linear sequence of bytes. Maybe for that reason some essence of the data > organisation also needs to be captured in the image archive... This, IMHO, is a non-problem. Unlike a floppy disk, where there is information other than the user data in the sectors, and where losing things like the inter-sector gap size _is_ a loss of information, you get the same infromation whether your ROM dump is 16K 32 bit words as the processor would read them, or 4 off 16K byte files, dumped from each EPROM. Even with my limited programming skills I can write a program to convert one into the other (and, if necessary scramble the order of address and data pins if they were not connected in the obvious order). Said programs may not been neat or efficient, but they only generally get run once, so it doesn't really matter. Of coruse it's _essential_ to record just what each file consists of, and if possible to explain how it corresponds to the real hardware. I am particularly bad about doing the latter, since I tend to assume it's obvious from the schematics, which I am likely to have anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 18:52:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:52:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Update and Pictures: It's been a hell of a day! HP 9845/2x In-Reply-To: <428B4529.404@topinform.com> from "Andreas Holz" at May 18, 5 03:37:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > > the PSU's of the 9845 are always a pain. > > Esp. for the 9845s produced in Germany once, at first all capacitors Argh! I think my 9845 is a German one.... > have to been checked before applying power. Several of them are of an > epoxy based package and like to produce a failure of the PSU (I killed Which capacitors are these? Are you thinking of the snubber networks on the main chopper transformers -- the 2 large non-electrolytic caps on the mainboard? > two PSUs up to now and I'm not daring to power on the third). > > >> I checked the HP 9845B and it's absolutely dead. The fan doesn't even > >>run. However the fault should be easy enough to locate. It's odd though, > >> > >> > > > >Be warned that thr 9845 PSU is _very_ complicated, even worse than the > >PDP11/44 PSU (!). Perhaps I should clarify that although it's complicated, it's not too unfriendly to work on. The little PCB at the front contains the 4 chopper transistors (2 push-pull chopper circuits). These, of course, are on the mains side of the PSU, but the little pot-core transformers on this board isolate the base drive signals. Therefore the 4 chopper drive transistors (on one of the output PCBs) and the entire control circuit (on the complicated PCB at the back) are isolated from the mains. Moreover, there's a nice, simple, linear startup supply for the control circuit. So checking waveforms and debugging the most complicated part of the supply shouldn't be too unpleasant. > > > As you seem to know the PSU quite well, do you have schematics? Only reverse-engineered ones. THese will end up on a later version of the HPCC CD-ROM, after I've figured out the rest of the machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 19:20:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:20:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200505182203.SAA29655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 18, 5 06:01:08 pm Message-ID: > I don't know the 9144 number. If that's a QIC drive, I (and probably It is, and it isn't :-). The tapes are the same physical dimensions as, say, a DC300 cartridge, but the format is not one of the QIC formats. In fact the tapes are pre-formatted by HP and can't be reformatted by the drive. IIRC the 9144 is a 16 track unit, the 9145 is similar but 32 track. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 18:55:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:55:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 18, 5 11:36:10 am Message-ID: > I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit > boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and > phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. FWIW, I have the HP150 Technical manual, with the HP150-II update. It includes a schematic for the original touchscreen, but not, for some odd reason, the one used in the -II machine with the HP-HIL interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 19:02:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:02:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pathology or hobby? In-Reply-To: <200505181653.JAA22347@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 18, 5 09:53:30 am Message-ID: Massively OT, but... > >> I have a small collection of old cameras, all of which can (or at least > >> could, if I made film to fit them) be used. > I often use a TV screen as a quick check of the shutter speed. > Even though the screen has persitence, where the electron > beam hits is brighter. If you know the sweep speed, you can > get good enough on the shutter speed. Another trick is to photograph a revolving disk with a dot/line on it, the disk being driven by a synchoronus motor. You measure the length of blur on the negative and thus work out the exposure time. Measuring time fairly accurately is not a problem. I have an old-but-good HP 5245 counter here. OK, the timebase hasn't been calibrated for years, but it's still cloese enough to check a mechanical shutter. The problem comes with defining the open time of a shutter, particularly a leaf shutter. Rmemeber that it doesn't open or close instantaneously. So you get a roughly trapezoidal pulse of light coming through. So do you measure the time from starting to open to fully closed, the time from fully open to starting to close, the equivalent width of a recangular pulse with the same area (which would give the same exposure), or what? Worse than that. the opeeniong and closing times depend on the diameter of the ligth beam coming through the shutter, and thus on the lens aperture setting. Hmmm... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 19:06:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:06:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050518125007.05092960@mail> from "John Foust" at May 18, 5 12:51:24 pm Message-ID: > I kind of like the idea of the metadata being a quick scan of > the label of the ROM or the label of the floppy. The problem with this is that it's impossible to seach for automatically (e.g. if you're looking for an AMUX16.3 PROM for a PERQ 2 or something), (and it's impossible for me to view it :-)). There's no reason why a scan of the label can't be included as well, but as much plain text description should be given too. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 19:40:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <20050518152353.S2241@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > Tell us about the nifty operating General Automation minicomputers > you have there! That will make Sellam not mind the upper case so > much :-) Haha. I'm the one trying to make John Allain understand that Bob is actually typing from something like a Model 28 (i.e. a no lowercase device). Yes, I've been to Bob's ham shack ;) He gave me a couple nice GA systems a few years ago. P.S. Respond to my e-mails about my trip to L.A. this weekend :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 18 19:49:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:49:33 -0400 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428BE29D.nailMH91BXHHX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> "American Used Computer" > I have a copy of their Winter 1978 catalog that [...] I would love to see that, Bill. I'm guessing that the photo is from around the same era. Tim. From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Wed May 18 19:51:36 2005 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:51:36 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have an old Altos tape drive that uses DC300 tapes. I went to the local hardware store and bought a rubber grommet with an inside diameter just slightly smaller than the capstan on the drive, so it would fit nice and tight. I then used fine sandpaper to get the outer diameter to match the original. Slipped it on the capstan and backed up the hard drive on my ACS8000. on 5/18/05 7:20 PM, Tony Duell at ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> I don't know the 9144 number. If that's a QIC drive, I (and probably > > It is, and it isn't :-). The tapes are the same physical dimensions as, > say, a DC300 cartridge, but the format is not one of the QIC formats. In > fact the tapes are pre-formatted by HP and can't be reformatted by the > drive. > > IIRC the 9144 is a 16 track unit, the 9145 is similar but 32 track. > > -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 20:30:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:30:09 -0500 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? References: Message-ID: <000d01c55c12$4bd38fd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > He gave me a couple nice > GA systems a few years ago. I was a GA dealer for years, knew them quite well. Alas, all I still have is a 1750 and a 2820. I passed up a 7820 years ago (like an idiot). What kinda GA Zebra's do you have? Jay West From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 18 20:24:25 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505190133.VAA01109@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I don't know the 9144 number. If that's a QIC drive, > It is, and it isn't :-). The tapes are the same physical dimensions > as, say, a DC300 cartridge, but the format is not one of the QIC > formats. In fact the tapes are pre-formatted by HP and can't be > reformatted by the drive. I went and dug up my hp300 stuff. Turns out I have a 9144. There's even a tape in it, though it's reasonably likely it's a vanilla QIC tape I was trying to test the drive with, not realizing it's not compatible with the rest of the QIC universe. I don't know whether it's succumbed to the roller-turns-to-goo issue. If the tapes to be read are near enough Montreal for it to matter, I could check, and try to set up an HP-IB-capable host to speak to the drive. This would not be easy, as my biggest hp300 machine has all of 5M of RAM and my only working HP-IB disk last I checked weighed about what I do, pulls something like 7A of mains current idling (about 11A briefly during startup), and is about half a gig. I have a card that looks like an HP-IB card (probably actually the IEEE HP-IB-alike, IEEE488 I think it is) for my SBus machines, but I have zero documentation on how to speak to a device with it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed May 18 20:35:01 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:35:01 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200505181835.01249.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 18 May 2005 17:31, William Maddox wrote: > --- shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > In the 60's and 70's, there was an outfit called > > "American Used Computer" > > I have a copy of their Winter 1978 catalog that I > bought from William Donzelli a few months ago. I've > been meaning to scan it... > > --Bill Please scan it! I used to do business with "Sonny" at AUC. I bought my first 8/L from him. BTW: They didn't get their systems from "dumpsters" - they were brokers in DEC and IBM as well IIRC. I was at their "warehouse" in Boston several times... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed May 18 20:44:30 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 8088 Zenith laptop Message-ID: <44070.127.0.0.1.1116467070.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Absolutely free (you pay the shipping): I have a Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97. It looks a lot like a SuperSport but it isn't. . . see http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/zenith_l/ for a look at one in much better shape then this. Mine is yellowed and has a crack on the front left but it does work! It has an internal 3.5" floppy as well as a 20 MB HD. Given enough time (it's SLOW) it will boot to the HD which has WordPerfect and DOS 5.0 installed. The machine comes with a battery pack (dead) and a power brick as well as a spare 3.5" drive. All yours for absolutely nothing if you come pick it up in San Jose or for the cost of shipping if you want it anywhere else. It's gone by the end of the weekend, one way or the other. . . -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed May 18 20:51:38 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:51:38 -0700 Subject: help sought in Seattle WA/Vancouver BC area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505181851380380.054B69F6@192.168.42.129> Hi, Fred, Could you contact me via private E-mail with more details, please? I may be able to help, but am uncertain what's involved. I'm southeast of Seattle. Thanks much. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 17-May-05 at 22:37 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >Hi all, > >I ened some help in the area named above.. picking up some boxes >and then shipping them out. If you're willing and able to help, >pse drop me a note off-list ! > >Thanks, > >Fred >-- >Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist >Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ >Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ >Email: waltje at pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 20:02:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:02:11 -0400 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518210211.009d55e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:55 AM 5/19/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit >> boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and >> phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. > >Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. > It was also a option in one of the terminals but I forget which one. I have a loose board of LED/Phototransistors that I found was used to retrofit Touchscreen capability into one of the terminals. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 20:39:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:39:22 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? In-Reply-To: <428BD970.8003F472@cs.ubc.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20050518164625.0094d8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518213922.0094e900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:10 PM 5/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >I (too) can not find a reference for the uA3656 in the Fairchild Full Line Condensed Catalog (1975). > >However, I believe Fairchild's naming convention is that "uA..." would indicate analog or interface functionality. Looking at the catalog that does seem to be the case. However I have no idea why someone whould put TWO analog ICs in RAM sockets. Also all of the analog parts in the catalog have three digit part numbers and nothing close to 3656 so I'm still wondering what I have here. However the date code makes me think that these aren't 1101s. I don't think they were available that early and I'd be surprised if any of the second source companies released their part before Intel did. I need to check on the release date for the 1101. Today I got a line on the guy that had these and dumped them. I'm going to try and locate him and see what he can tell me. > >Speculation #1: > If there are some connections from the uA3656 to the 1101s (or 1702s) (but not pin-for-pin parallelling) it may be a TTL<->MOS sense-amplifier/driver/level-converter. Early MOS memory chips used external drivers/sense amplifiers, and specialised ICs were produced for those functions. That's possible however they are definitely in sockets that are supposed to have 1101s. BELIEVE IT! I have four complete baords and I pulled parts from about 12 more so I'm CERTAIN that these sockets are supposed to contain RAM. I'm not saying that these parts are RAM but I'd be rather surprised if someone put an analog part in a RAM socket and I'd be doubely surprised if they put two of the same parts in adjacent RAM sockets. > > For example, I found Motorola refs for DS3645/75 (hex 3S latch driver for MOS mem), DS3647/77 (quad 3S MOS mem IO reg), MC3461 (dual NMOS Memory Sense Amp) (from Motorola Linear 1976). > > Perhaps it is from the Motorola DS36.. line, but second-sourced from Fairchild. Interesting idea. I'll take a look at the Motorola catalog and see if they have something with a similar number. If so I'll compare the packages. > >Speculation #2: > An A/D or D/A converter (perhaps connected to the nearby D connector?). You know, I don't know what those two D connectors are for. They're inside the case when it's assembled and covered up and aren't connected to anything. I expect that they're some kind of test connector. But I should trace them out and see where they go. > > >BTW & FWIW: > On your web page about the AMI S6800 (http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/ami/ami.htm), you wonder what the FCM7002 IC is. >It is a clock/calendar chip, like those used in the 1970s for constructing digital clocks: the FCM7001 (aka CT7001) was a clock/calendar chip with multiplexed 6-digit 7-segment display outputs. If I have it correctly, on the FCM7002 the 7-segment outputs are replaced with BCD outputs. (... built a clock using the 7001, and saw the 7002 on a real-time-clock I/O board for the TI-990 in the late 1970s, must have been rather awkward for the board designers to interface.) Thanks for that information. I'm still trying to find docs for the S6800. A couple of people said that they had them but no one's turned them up yet. Joe > > >"Joe R." wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any information about this IC? I have two of them. I >> found them in the memory section of an Intel 8008 based computer. The other >> RAMs are Intel 1101s so I'm guessing that these are equivelent parts but I >> want to be sure. The date code on these is 7114 and they're white ceramic >> with gold lids and faint grey traces to each leg. Here >> is a picture of the >> board with the two ICs installed. The ICs in the top row are 1702 EPROMs. >> The 1101 RAMs are in the second row. These two parts are the 2nd and 3rd >> parts from the RH end. FWIW I have a 1970 and a 1973 Fairchild catalogs but >> neigher one lists any uA36xx parts. >> >> Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 20:43:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:43:40 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? In-Reply-To: <200505190017.RAA22622@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518214340.009d8d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:17 PM 5/18/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >Hi > There is a good chance it is an interface part. >Remember the 8008 bus is not TTL. ???? Ok then what is it? The first page in my Intel 8008 manual says "TTL Compatible (Input, Output and Clocks)". Or am I missing something? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed May 18 20:49:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:49:37 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <200505182203.SAA29655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050518214937.009d8a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:20 AM 5/19/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I don't know the 9144 number. If that's a QIC drive, I (and probably > >It is, and it isn't :-). The tapes are the same physical dimensions as, >say, a DC300 cartridge, but the format is not one of the QIC formats. In >fact the tapes are pre-formatted by HP and can't be reformatted by the >drive. > >IIRC the 9144 is a 16 track unit, the 9145 is similar but 32 track. Correct. FWIW The 9145 can read but not write 9144 tapes. I've given up on the 9145s, I can never find tapes for them. FWIW2 the older HP 9142 tape drive could format it's own tapes. BTW Does anyone know if the HP 7946s can read or write HP 9144 tapes? IIRC they use the same tapes but I've never tried to swap tapes and the catalog doesn't say. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 20:50:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <000d01c55c12$4bd38fd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > > He gave me a couple nice > > GA systems a few years ago. > > I was a GA dealer for years, knew them quite well. Alas, all I still have is > a 1750 and a 2820. I passed up a 7820 years ago (like an idiot). > > What kinda GA Zebra's do you have? Sorry, I keep confusing GA with CA (Computer Automation). I got a couple Naked Minis from him. Would love to find some GA's. I did get a pretty complete Microdata system a couple months back, which I understand you also dealed in? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 18 21:15:22 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:15:22 -0700 Subject: Imation tapes on eBay Message-ID: <428BF6BA.7030501@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51090&item=5199351519 if anybody needs tape. they clearly are NOT new as advertised (at least the one in the pic isn't) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 18 21:40:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:40:39 -0500 Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? References: Message-ID: <008f01c55c1c$25255350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > Sorry, I keep confusing GA with CA (Computer Automation). I got a couple > Naked Minis from him. Would love to find some GA's. I did get a pretty > complete Microdata system a couple months back, which I understand you > also dealed in? Yup, we were dealers for most of the early pick mini's. So what kind of microdata do you have? Reality? Sequel? Series-18? And what model!? I was EXTREMELY blessed not too long ago with a Microdata M2000, 1/2 tape, reflex drive, and a truckfull of docs & tapes :> After I restore the 11/45, I'll start either the M2000 or a DG/Eclipse S/130. Then an 11/34, and I'll pretty much be done with all the systems I wanted. Unless someone tosses me an IBM 360 :> Jay West From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 21:40:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:40:40 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives > are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to > future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR > is useless for this purpose. I think that *you* are missing the point that *no* archive can last that long except maybe paper. (I say this because the media reader for paper is... all humans. 100 years from now I wouldn't expect to be able to read a DVD-ROM, for comparison.) Most digital archivsts agree that the goal is not 100 years, but 10-20 so that it can be transferred to the new generation of media every so often. > I use ZIP files all the time but I would not use any of > this stuff for the purpose of archiving. I surely wouldn't > even consider a window application for archiving. Your viewpoint doesn't make sense to me. We can still run MS-DOS programs from 24 years ago; do you think that 24 years from now we won't be able to run windows programs? It doesn't matter anyway since I use RAR; did you know there is a source version of UNRAR that works on everything under the sun? > Even things like error correction need to have their > descriptions in the archive file. Do you expect to package > a X86 simulator and WinRAR into a HTML like format with > each of these compressed files? Not EACH of them, no. I may have only been archiving digital media for 20 years, but everything I have ever laid my hands on is still readable. I transfer it every 5-7 years or so to the newer generation of media, keeping one generation backward around just in case. I also use error-correcting file formats and/or make duplicates. Whenever I store things in .RAR, I always include the archival program used to make it. This takes up 900K of a 4.3G DVD-ROM so give me a little credit here. It is better to archive now than to wait for "the best way" because, due to human nature, there is no "best way". You can always translate data to a new format. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 21:45:20 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:45:20 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <200505182219.SAA29803@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> <200505182219.SAA29803@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <428BFDC0.8030604@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > You raise a good point. I'll have to add support to my tar for file > sizes over 8G. But then it won't be tar. You'll be creating files that can only be extracted with your version. The solution is an archive format that handles nearly ludicrous sizes, such as WinRK or RAR. I am NOT ENDORSING THEM, just mentioning them for comparison. I am not aware of any such solution for *nix except maybe dump/restore to a file instead of a device (assuming the filesystem handles files over (unsigned DWORD) in length, something that isn't always obvious. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 21:53:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:53:40 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428BFFB4.2060404@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>>How many people saw that Nova? PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING >>>undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students >>>were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > > It's worrying that I could do this before I even went to primary school... My father was a Radio Shack fan and always kept me supplied with "Lil' Electricity Kit" stuff, so same here. Was the Nova staged or something? Surely engineering undergrads would know how to make a light bulb light up. I call bullshit. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 18 21:57:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:57:30 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <20050517171726.F850@localhost> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> <20050517171726.F850@localhost> Message-ID: <428C009A.2050902@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > Give a small boy a hammer, and everything looks like a nail. Yes, and I have the smashed equipment to prove it. :-P -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 18 21:54:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428BFDC0.8030604@oldskool.org> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> <200505182219.SAA29803@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <428BFDC0.8030604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200505190300.XAA01556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> You raise a good point. I'll have to add support to my tar for file >> sizes over 8G. > But then it won't be tar. It will be whenever possible, ie, when what you're packaging up fits within the tar format limitations, and it will be basically within the tar framework (admittedly a loose concept) for the rest. > You'll be creating files that can only be extracted with your > version. And this is different from using rar, or zip, or whatever, how? You *always* need a program to read the format in question (or docs enough to produce such a program). The only difference I can see is the wideness of spread of the format and/or programs to read it, and if mouse-tar archives become widely enough spread for that to matter, I expect mouse-tar to spread along with them, if not before them. > The solution is an archive format that handles nearly ludicrous > sizes, such as WinRK or RAR. ...or mouse-tar, once I fix it. :-) Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if gnu tar already supported such an extension to the tar format. Besides, I want to add such support to my tar regardless of its utility for what's being discussed here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed May 18 22:12:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:12:35 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 May 2005 12:31:21 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > (I'm considering a new look, since I've been getting weary of the > > funny looks from 10 year old boys at McDonalds these days.) > > Your license plate wouldn't happen to be "D-FENS", would it? ;-) Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license plate, I recently got one of these http://www.opengroup.org/pubs/catalog/n900.htm (UNIX license plate) for the front. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 22:12:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <428BFFB4.2060404@oldskool.org> References: <428BFFB4.2060404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050518200724.K30884@shell.lmi.net> > >>>How many people saw that Nova? No, not Nova. "Minds Of Our Own" > >>> PBS session where they handed ENGINEERING > >>>undergrads a battery a bulb and a handful of wires? Many of the students > >>>were adament that it was impossible to light the bulb without a socket. > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Was the Nova staged or something? Surely engineering undergrads would know > how to make a light bulb light up. I call bullshit. It does seem hard to believe. But it wasn't staged. http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ep/almanac/797.htm Some thought that it "could not be done" without a socket. Very few realized, even with a broken bulb at hand, that a bulb has two contacts. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 22:11:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H.P. DUAL SERIAL BOARDS FOR 286 WON'T WORK ON 386? In-Reply-To: <008f01c55c1c$25255350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > > Sorry, I keep confusing GA with CA (Computer Automation). I got a couple > > Naked Minis from him. Would love to find some GA's. I did get a pretty > > complete Microdata system a couple months back, which I understand you > > also dealed in? > Yup, we were dealers for most of the early pick mini's. So what kind of > microdata do you have? Reality? Sequel? Series-18? And what model!? Like he who screams disdain for the mysteries of life that will not betray themselves, so too are the answers to your questions, which cannot be honored. I have no idea. A nice man who contacted me a couple years ago said come and get it. I never had the time to do so. The nice man loaded it in a trailer and brought it to me. It went to the back of my warehouse and proceeded to get promptly buried, to be uncovered again someday and marvelled at anew. I believe it might've arrived with some manuals. At any rate, I do have some Microdata docs in my archive. I've have lots of interesting minis and other oddities (IBM 3741, IBM 557) from the late 1960s through 1970s to play with, and one more coming this weekend. I'm already booking the time I may someday have in "retirement" ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 22:16:00 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <428C009A.2050902@oldskool.org> References: <428A7A46.4030603@bitsavers.org> <20050517162616.H99405@shell.lmi.net> <20050517171726.F850@localhost> <428C009A.2050902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050518201512.Y30884@shell.lmi.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > Give a small boy a hammer, and everything looks like a nail. ... and if your tools ar WinDoze, then everything looks like a thumb. From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 18 22:13:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives > > are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to > > future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR > > is useless for this purpose. > > I think that *you* are missing the point that *no* archive can last that long > except maybe paper. (I say this because the media reader for paper is... all You're interpretting what Dwight is saying within your own context. Dwight is referring to the content itself, not the media on which the content (The Archive) is stored. > humans. 100 years from now I wouldn't expect to be able to read a > DVD-ROM, for comparison.) Most digital archivsts agree that the goal is > not 100 years, but 10-20 so that it can be transferred to the new > generation of media every so often. This is now a given to anyone that's given it a couple moment's thought. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tponsford at theriver.com Wed May 18 22:09:21 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:09:21 -0700 Subject: Surplus auctions and classic computers Message-ID: <428C0361.1000306@theriver.com> Hi All, Anybody who is interested in surplus auctions, federal regulations concerning surplus (computers) auctions or reselling and who live nearby the University of Michigan, might be interested in attending the University Surplus Property Association annual meeting this upcoming weekend. This is a policy/association meeting...not an auction, but it is important for our hobby! http://surplus.msu.edu/uspa_docs/agenda.htm I frequently attend surplus property auctions at some of the local (and not so local) colleges and Universities in and around Arizona, as they almost always have various classic computers at great prices (even next to nothing/free). Several years ago I attended a conference here at the University of Arizona of the University Surplus Property Association. This is a fairly new association put together to help organizations, especially universities and colleges deal with property management and the sale and disposition of universiy property. This has become an issue with many major universities as the dealing with the sale and disposition of thousands of old computers can be a real pain in the ass, but not if it can generate a revenue stream. Many universities have taken the easy way out and just turned everything overt to liquidators at a set price and be done with it. Some universities like the University of Arizona have a surplus property department that sells thousands of items every month. The U of A's surplus auction have generated a positive cash flow for several years now and is model now for several universities. More importantly, the current surplus policy at the U of A and many other universities is one of reselling rather than refuse/elimination, especially if it generates revenue! SO it is a great way to acquire/save/buy many classic computers. Time to time we get a fair amount of classic computers go through the U of A that are only now being retired, as they may have been used as part of a lab and is only now being replaced. In the private sector these computers were replaced decades ago. I have a fairly large classic computer collection and 95 percent of it was acquired at the U of A. We recently had a concerned member on this list bemoan the fact that surplus auctions may be a thing of the past, dure to onerous new Federal Regulations. Well there is a special session at the USPA meeting that addresses this same problem. I am sure they have the correct information regarding these laws and it might be good for a member of this list to attend! Let me point out that this new association has already convinced several universities to open thier own "surplus property" offices to try and generate some revenue from old property instead of going through private sector liquidators/scrappers. Most likely there have been hundreds of classic computers that have landed in the hands of enthusiasts and hobbyist instead of the dump. The meeting also includes several other interesting items, such as selling on ebay and fair market valuation. Sellam Ismail has stated that the community need several data points to really establish fair values on antique computers. While this one would not be fair to sellers, it is certainly a valuble data point to buyers. All in all, as a former attendee, I encourage anybody who may be interested to attend! (They are fairly flexible on attendence/registration requirements) I went just as a member of the public! Cheers, Tom From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 22:26:38 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:26:38 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:40 PM > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives >> are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to >> future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR >> is useless for this purpose. > > I think that *you* are missing the point that *no* archive can last that > long except maybe paper. (I say this because the media reader for paper > is... all humans. 100 years from now I wouldn't expect to be able to read > a DVD-ROM, for comparison.) Most digital archivsts agree that the goal is > not 100 years, but 10-20 so that it can be transferred to the new > generation of media every so often. > >> I use ZIP files all the time but I would not use any of >> this stuff for the purpose of archiving. I surely wouldn't >> even consider a window application for archiving. > > Your viewpoint doesn't make sense to me. We can still run MS-DOS programs > from 24 years ago; do you think that 24 years from now we won't be able to > run windows programs? It doesn't matter anyway since I use RAR; did you > know there is a source version of UNRAR that works on everything under the > sun? It's putting the cart before the horse, once the media is digitized into a format that includes the formatting information how it's archived is much less important. It can be in any format that can be unpacked easily. Lately I've been using self-extracting zip files. The reason is that just by renaming the file from *.exe to *.zip most decompressors handle it just fine and for 99% of the people it includes the software to decompress it. Next year if a better format comes out I can transfer to that method. No matter what format I've posted on my site I've had lots of complaints that it's not the same format or version they are using, usually from people running windoze. By posting exe files I've gotten questions talking about trojan horses, or they aren't running windows. I always say no matter what archive you download always have anti-virus software running plus all you have to do is rename the file to use it on most decompressors (yes it is also mentioned at the bottom of the download pages). You can not plan on what is the next best archival tool and you can't please everyone. Use what you have and try to make it so most people can handle it one way or another. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed May 18 22:28:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:28:14 -0500 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: References: <1ab.38a69db4.2fbadfc3@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050518222814.5f961926.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 May 2005 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 17 May 2005 Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > > > One thing that I have been wondering for a while is what the current > > definition of minicomputer is. > > It used to be contrasted with microcomputers, the telling difference > > being a multichip processor implementation versus a single-chip > > microprocessor [if so, are the POWER1 and POWER2 processors > > minicomputer processors?] but now, with microprocessors being used > > in mainframes (and even on-topic mainframes) is this distinction > > meaningless [i.e. should the designation "microcomputer" in its > > size/power context be replaced with something else?] and, if so, > > does the [whatever micro becomes]/mini/mainframe become a question > > of mass (>700 lbs mainframe, >100 lbs mini, <100 lbs [???]), or > > history (the HP3000 started life as a mini, therefore the spectrum > > models continue as minis . . .), or does the venerable minicomputer > > cease to exist? any other ideas? > > We had to address this issue for the VCF. In deciding what classes to > create, we decided on Microcomputer and "Mini, Multi-User, or Larger > Computer", with the following definitions: > > 1. Microcomputer > > A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two > microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the > computer. For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is > defined as a central processing unit comprised of not more than 4 > individual LSI intgerated circuit on a single board, with the entire > ALU being contained within a single integrated circuit. > > 2. Mini, Multi-User, or Larger Computer > > This class encompasses all computers that were intended primarily to > be used by multiple simultaneous users (i.e. mainframes), or that were > smaller (in terms of size and power consumption) than mainframe > computers but utilized a central processing unit comprised of many > discrete or integrated circuit components either on a single carrier > or across multiple carriers. > > Comments welcome. > Interesting way to skew it, but it 'breaks' somewhat with certain older microprocessor based systems. My Altos 586, for instance, has 5 serial ports all designed to host a user on a dumb terminal. But it has an 8086 processor. So it's explicitly a multiuser machine, but with a single chip micro. An interesting 'dividing line' that I like to use is 'does a keyboard plug into it?' Is it primarily designed as a single-user workstation, with keyboard and display attached? The dividing question of all-discrete-logic design is also a good dividing point. Minicomputers have logic-gates for more than 'glue' functions and shuttling data between LSI chips. There's even a 'dividing point' in this within consumer 'pee-cee' hardware, one that I think can be used as a 'classic/non-classic' divide. The old 'XT' type machines used a few stock off-the-shelf 8xxx-series LSI chips but no large scale custom chips at all. The earliest 'AT' type systems follow this design as well. The earliest 'full-size AT' motherboards feature all TTL logic plus off-the-shelf 8xxx-series LSI chips. This era ended when 'custom VLSI chip-set' design kicked in, and it was essentially the 'end of the era' for easily repairable 'Pee-Cee' designs. The first few generations (up to the PC-AT) of the IBM design were fully 'open' to tech people, that changed around the time of the higher-end 386 systems. > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 18 22:30:57 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:30:57 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505182230.57154.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Wednesday 18 May 2005 10:13 pm: > > humans. 100 years from now I wouldn't expect to be able to read a > > DVD-ROM, for comparison.) Most digital archivsts agree that the goal > > is not 100 years, but 10-20 so that it can be transferred to the new > > generation of media every so often. > > This is now a given to anyone that's given it a couple moment's > thought. I think that the best way to combat that problem is to keep a live archive on some sort of constantly-accessible (not off-line) medium, like spinning disks. You will, of course, want to keep multiple copies, potentially not all on-line. Keeping the data online helps with ensuring that the data is kept on accessible media - always copy the data off when you have to upgrade the medium to something new. Storage can change a lot in 100 years, but it's unlikely to change significantly enough at any one point to prevent you from copying the data to then-current media. Of course, make perodic backups/replicas of the data, and verify its integredy against the replicas/backups as well as using checksumming, such as md5 sums. There's my $0.02 on the topic. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 22:38:36 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <20050518222814.5f961926.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <1ab.38a69db4.2fbadfc3@aol.com> <20050518222814.5f961926.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050518203634.K30884@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Interesting way to skew it, but it 'breaks' somewhat with certain older > microprocessor based systems. My Altos 586, for instance, has 5 serial > ports all designed to host a user on a dumb terminal. But it has an > 8086 processor. So it's explicitly a multiuser machine, but with a > single chip micro. > > An interesting 'dividing line' that I like to use is 'does a keyboard > plug into it?' Is it primarily designed as a single-user workstation, > with keyboard and display attached? Good idea, but that one also has plenty of exceptions. Machines such as Morrow, Northstar, etc. required an external terminal, in spite of being single user. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed May 18 22:41:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:41:15 -0500 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050518224115.4d598107.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 17 May 2005, chris wrote: > > > >1. Microcomputer > > > > > >A "microcomputer" is defined as a computer having no more than two > > >microprocessors used for general purpose processing within the > > >computer. For the purposes of this class, a "microprocessor" is > > >defined as a central processing unit comprised of not more than 4 > > >individual LSI intgerated circuit on a single board, with the > > >entire ALU being contained within a single integrated circuit. > > > > Will this definition change when Apple starts selling 4 processor G5 > > towers? Or will those (and 4 processor Pentium workstations), not > > apply because they are far too new? > > Will they still be intended for use by one person? I don't know why > we didn't think of it before, but instead of "Microcomputer" it should > perhaps be "Personal Computer". > I have an IBM PC Server 704. It's big (size of an oversize 'fireproof' commercial two-drawer file cabinet) and sports four Pentium Pro processors. It's a pee-cee, though, and if I wanted, Processor 1 would be happy running MS-DOS. Then I could use WordStar 3.3 on it and it'd be a dandy 'peronal word processor,' sort of. Hell, I could install Darwin on it and pretend it's one of Apple's 4 processor G5 towers (the 32 bit version in the 'ugly case'). From drb at msu.edu Wed May 18 22:41:58 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:41:58 -0400 Subject: Surplus auctions and classic computers Message-ID: <200505190341.j4J3fwRr008443@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Anybody who is interested in surplus auctions, federal regulations > concerning surplus (computers) auctions or reselling and who live > nearby the University of Michigan, might be interested in attending the > University Surplus Property Association annual meeting this upcoming > weekend. This is a policy/association meeting...not an auction, > but it is important for our hobby! > > http://surplus.msu.edu/uspa_docs/agenda.htm Grrr! :-) MSU is Michigan State, the land of the righteous, in East Lansing. That _other_ school mentioned above is down the road in Ann Arbor. Those trying to attend might want to show up in the correct town, though it sounds like they're doing a bus tour to AA. De From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 22:42:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505182230.57154.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505182230.57154.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050518204010.K30884@shell.lmi.net> The only REALLY permanent archive would be to use steganography to embed the archives within internet urban legends. The kid with cancer who needs get well cards will be around longer than Stonehenge. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 18 22:45:44 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:45:44 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org> Randy McLaughlin declared on Wednesday 18 May 2005 10:26 pm: > Lately I've been using self-extracting zip files. The reason is that > just by renaming the file from *.exe to *.zip most decompressors > handle it just fine and for 99% of the people it includes the software > to decompress it. So, to fan the flames, what's wrong with tar? There's a lot more machines I know of that can easily handle tar files than zip files... Even WinZip can decompress tar files... while I still had a running Windows machine, I used WinZip to decompress tar files several times. Plus, tar is an (intentionally) open format; gnu tar is available for lots of different platforms, and it's even easy to write your own tar extractor. Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, open formats are more important than making sure that everyone's grandma can figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that the person has a grasp of being able to learn new things, and some idea of logic are IMO reasonable assumptions. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 18 23:00:51 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:00:51 -0400 Subject: what's an 11/75? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A38@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > James Fogg > > Well if you don't, others might (I would take one if its in > the North > > East US). > > The two 11/75's plus peripherals plus RSX11M docs/media are > in Maryland, close to DC. That northeast enough for you? :> Too far. I'd go as far as Harrisburg, PA for the right system, but even that is 2 days. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 18 23:40:08 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:40:08 -0500 Subject: Surplus auctions and classic computers In-Reply-To: <428C0361.1000306@theriver.com> References: <428C0361.1000306@theriver.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050518231849.04d42d48@mail> At 10:09 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: >I frequently attend surplus property auctions at some of the local (and not so local) colleges and Universities in and around Arizona, as they almost always have various classic computers at great prices (even next to nothing/free). I see one of the presentations is by Tim Sell, one of the guys who runs "SWAP", the state / UW surplus center in Madison, WI. It mentions the "USPA online auction / contract" software. What's that? The SWAP's online auction software looks homegrown and I could give them a long list of feature requests but in my experience they don't really seem to care. https://mds.bussvc.wisc.edu/swap/home.asp For example, there's no way to view the results of a finished auction. It counts down; the snipers often get in (manually) at the last second, you don't even know what something sold for. All auctions end at 10 p.m. I've always had this nagging feeling that these sorts of governmental surplus agencies were ripe for corruption. As the cloaca of large and expensive organizations, a great deal of stuff arrives. Where it all goes, who knows. I seem to remember hearing rumors of a RAM chip theft ring; small, easily stolen in pockets, once-expensive and easily fence-able. And SWAP was once located in the heart of the UW campus and state office downtown area, but then they moved it ten miles on the outskirts of town. I can't help but imagine that all sorts of large, hard to move items (like a mainframe) wouldn't be dragged across town, and that the result was that more stuff ended up in campus Dumpsters than ever before. SWAP also has a policy that favors non-profits and governmental agencies. They're open on Thursdays for them; the public gets second dibs on Friday and Saturday. They'd rather sell an item for $2 on Thursday than for $100 on Friday. On the other hand, they have a tough job, squeezing the last bit of value from equipment bought with taxpayer dollars. They can't keep the stuff, they've got to move it out as best they can. - John From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 18 23:46:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:46:04 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com><428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org><001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <001301c55c2d$ad9da280$7292d6d1@randy> From: "Patrick Finnegan" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 10:45 PM > Randy McLaughlin declared on Wednesday 18 May 2005 10:26 pm: >> Lately I've been using self-extracting zip files. The reason is that >> just by renaming the file from *.exe to *.zip most decompressors >> handle it just fine and for 99% of the people it includes the software >> to decompress it. > > So, to fan the flames, what's wrong with tar? There's a lot more > machines I know of that can easily handle tar files than zip files... > > Even WinZip can decompress tar files... while I still had a running > Windows machine, I used WinZip to decompress tar files several times. > Plus, tar is an (intentionally) open format; gnu tar is available for > lots of different platforms, and it's even easy to write your own tar > extractor. > > Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, open > formats are more important than making sure that everyone's grandma can > figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that the person has a > grasp of being able to learn new things, and some idea of logic are IMO > reasonable assumptions. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org Personally I like TAR. I use self extracting archives because if you are computer literate the instructions printed on the download page should tell you what it takes to extract it. If you are a windoze user with you head up where the sun doesn't shine it just works. It works for the largest base, even for those that are just now ready to learn. I am not advocating winzip as a perfect system, just a system that fits my personal desire to spread archives to as many as want to download them. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu May 19 01:12:01 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:12:01 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Micro/Mini/Mainframe definitions Message-ID: <32481.1116483121@www82.gmx.net> Sellam wrote: > Does the thing sitting in front of you "compute"? Are you the only one > using it at any one time? If so, I'd call that a Personal Computer ;) Your're excluding quite a few Wintel boxen out there with your definition. How many of those aren't used exclusively by their obvious "operators", if you count in "timesharing" them with back orifice users, adware/spyware distributors and the like? So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Weitersagen: GMX DSL-Flatrates mit Tempo-Garantie! Ab 4,99 Euro/Monat: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 19 03:27:17 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:27:17 -0700 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? References: <3.0.6.32.20050518164625.0094d8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050518213922.0094e900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <428C4DDD.FB2390E8@cs.ubc.ca> > That's possible however they are definitely in sockets that are supposed > to have 1101s. BELIEVE IT! I have four complete baords and I pulled parts > from about 12 more so I'm CERTAIN that these sockets are supposed to > contain RAM. I'm not saying that these parts are RAM but I'd be rather OK, forget my speculating, I didn't realise you knew that 1101/RAM was supposed to be in those sockets. As weird as it might be, it sure looks to me like somebody stuck the wrong ICs in there. FWIW, there is an article about state-of-the-art memories, and in which the Intel 1101 is described, in "Electronics World" magazine from October 1970 (by Robert Noyce, of Fairchild/Intel/planar IC fame). From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu May 19 04:03:36 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:03:36 +0100 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050518184654.04c873b0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050519095425.04fd3f38@pop.freeserve.net> At 20:08 18/05/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 5/18/05, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > The worst processor/user ratio I think I encountered was about 50 users > > sharing a 486dx50.. It was in a rack case, in the top 6" of a 4' rack, the > > rest being blocked in empty space except for a UPS sat in the bottom. The > > users most definitely called it "the mainframe" ! > >Worst processor/user ratio for PeeCee-class equipment, or on a >per-cycle basis? I was thinking specifically of the PeeCee based stuff. I did have for a while an ex-customer "Microfive" machine, 8088 based, 12 serial ports on the back, no kb or video, and not PC architecture. With maximum users that would have been worse... Thinking about it, though, some of the VAX (11/780) and own-brand machines I used years back at Ferranti would have been far less cycles/user. [snip] >So in the great mini-vs-micro debate, once one is talking about later >16 and 32-bit minis (early 12 and 16-bit minis do tend to have one >medium-performance I/O bus), I'd have to say that I/O architecture has >as much to do with the definition as the number of processors. I think the micro/mini is a pretty hard distinction to make when talking about current hardware; the technologies cross-pollinate! Even in old stuff, it certainly sounds like it's more of a marketing term rather than a technical definition - The "small enough for a department to afford" meaning of mini feels best to me for the older machines. Rob From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 19 06:02:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:02:42 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? In-Reply-To: <428C4DDD.FB2390E8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20050518164625.0094d8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050518213922.0094e900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050519070242.009d4150@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:27 AM 5/19/05 -0700, Brent wrote: >> That's possible however they are definitely in sockets that are supposed >> to have 1101s. BELIEVE IT! I have four complete baords and I pulled parts >> from about 12 more so I'm CERTAIN that these sockets are supposed to >> contain RAM. I'm not saying that these parts are RAM but I'd be rather > >OK, forget my speculating, I didn't realise you knew that 1101/RAM was supposed to be in those sockets. As weird as it might be, it sure looks to me like somebody stuck the wrong ICs in there. I think you're right. But I'd still like to know what these are. I'm beginning to wonder if they might be "house marked" Fairchild parts given the odd numbering. If so I'll probably never figure out what they are. > >FWIW, there is an article about state-of-the-art memories, and in which the Intel 1101 is described, in "Electronics World" magazine from October 1970 (by Robert Noyce, of Fairchild/Intel/planar IC fame). Interesting. I wonder if my local libraries microfiche goes back that far. Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 19 06:07:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:07:50 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050519070750.0094e370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:12 PM 5/18/05 -0500, Scott wrote: >On Tue, 17 May 2005 12:31:21 -0500 >Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Scott Stevens wrote: >> > (I'm considering a new look, since I've been getting weary of the >> > funny looks from 10 year old boys at McDonalds these days.) >> >> Your license plate wouldn't happen to be "D-FENS", would it? ;-) > >Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license plate, I >recently got one of these >http://www.opengroup.org/pubs/catalog/n900.htm (UNIX license plate) for >the front. > Carefull! The ten year old crowd may think you mean EUNUCH! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 19 07:30:35 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:30:35 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050519070750.0094e370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050519070750.0094e370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050519072817.04d3c210@mail> At 06:07 AM 5/19/2005, Joe R. wrote: > Carefull! The ten year old crowd may think you mean EUNUCH! And the Greek scholars will know it comes from "eune" and "echo." - John From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu May 19 07:55:53 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:55:53 -0500 Subject: mini versus micro? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0E7EB4B7@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200505191255.j4JCtL6U040415@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob O'Donnell > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:04 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: mini versus micro? > > At 20:08 18/05/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >On 5/18/05, Rob O'Donnell > wrote: > > > The worst processor/user ratio I think I encountered was about 50 > > > users sharing a 486dx50.. It was in a rack case, in the > top 6" of a > > > 4' rack, the rest being blocked in empty space except for > a UPS sat > > > in the bottom. The users most definitely called it "the > mainframe" ! > > > >Worst processor/user ratio for PeeCee-class equipment, or on a > >per-cycle basis? > > I was thinking specifically of the PeeCee based stuff. I did > have for a while an ex-customer "Microfive" machine, 8088 > based, 12 serial ports on the back, no kb or video, and not > PC architecture. With maximum users that would have been worse... > > Thinking about it, though, some of the VAX (11/780) and > own-brand machines I used years back at Ferranti would have > been far less cycles/user. > > [snip] > >So in the great mini-vs-micro debate, once one is talking about later > >16 and 32-bit minis (early 12 and 16-bit minis do tend to have one > >medium-performance I/O bus), I'd have to say that I/O > architecture has > >as much to do with the definition as the number of processors. > > I think the micro/mini is a pretty hard distinction to make > when talking about current hardware; the technologies > cross-pollinate! Even in old stuff, it certainly sounds like > it's more of a marketing term rather than a technical > definition - The "small enough for a department to afford" > meaning of mini feels best to me for the older machines. > I'm pretty sure there's no minicomputer class of system anymore. I believe there are systems referred to as "Entry level", "Enterprise", "Mid-frame", and "Mainframe" I agree here though, it's all marketing. The only actual distinction you can make hardware-wise is between microprocessor and non-microprocessor based systems...a good example of this is DEC, who called every QBUS machine a microcomputer. I believe the proof in the pudding here is that there are now hundreds of owners of "personal minicomputers" and even a few with "personal mainframes." There was some strange crossover material here too, like 1973's GT40 graphics workstation, which sat on a desk, and had its own CPU and whatnot, that it shared with the 11/05...however, the 11/05 model was designated as a minicomputer, even though some of the lowest end 11/05 models ran a single user programming system off cassettes...if that's not a "personal computer"....I don't know what is. So to recap, in marketing terms, a personal computer is: A computer architecture designed with a single user *in mind*. A minicomputer is an architecture with a multiuser system in mind. A mainframe is an architecture with a large number of multiple users in mind. How can I illustrate the difference between mainframe and mini? Back in the day, I know there were some businesses that ran each of their engineering areas each on a different mini, then the finance on another, administration on another, etc. I honestly believe the marketing of the minicomputer to be only groundbreaking in that it was the first step toward decentralized computing...again, that's only *marketing* wise. Of course, if you're DEC, you don't know what you're selling, so it's all moot ;) End rant :D Julian > Rob > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 19 08:53:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:53:14 -0400 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! References: Message-ID: <17036.39498.999853.680754@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit >> boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and >> phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. Tony> Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. Don't know about the 150, but that approach (rows and columns of light beams) is how the touch panels on PLATO terminals -- starting early in the 1970s -- worked. Of course it's easier when the screen is flat, as it always has been for plasma displays. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 19 08:55:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:55:16 -0400 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <17036.39620.769780.174416@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: Jim> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives are >> intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to future media >> ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR is useless for this >> purpose. Jim> I think that *you* are missing the point that *no* archive can Jim> last that long except maybe paper. There are others. See www.longnow.org. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 19 08:58:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:58:10 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17036.39794.944640.781823@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license Scott> plate, I recently got one of these Scott> http://www.opengroup.org/pubs/catalog/n900.htm (UNIX license Scott> plate) for the front. Cool. I wish I still had one of the originals, given out by DEC around 1980 -- I think Armando Stettner, DEC's first Unix engineer, was the perpetrator. How he ever got that past the bureaucracy is still a miracle. paul From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 09:34:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Lately I've been using self-extracting zip files. The reason is that just > by renaming the file from *.exe to *.zip most decompressors handle it just > fine and for 99% of the people it includes the software to decompress it. Assuming you have a working PC or emulator to run it. > By posting exe files I've gotten questions talking about trojan horses, or > they aren't running windows. I always say no matter what archive you > download always have anti-virus software running plus all you have to do is > rename the file to use it on most decompressors (yes it is also mentioned at > the bottom of the download pages). Anti-virus software, when it works at all, doesn't work against a trojan horse. > You can not plan on what is the next best archival tool and you can't > please everyone. Use what you have and try to make it so most people can > handle it one way or another. My suggestion is to stay away from proprietary compressed binary formats. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 09:37:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050518204010.K30884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > The only REALLY permanent archive would be to use steganography to embed > the archives within internet urban legends. The kid with cancer who needs > get well cards will be around longer than Stonehenge. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu May 19 10:28:35 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:35 +0200 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: <17036.39498.999853.680754@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17036.39498.999853.680754@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050519172714.0364cea8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> HP150 touchscreens work without touching. There are indeed rows on the top, bottom, left and right just in front the actual screen, if you break one of the "beams" it will detect that and do whatever its meant to do. At 15:53 19-5-2005, you wrote: > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit > >> boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and > >> phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. > > Tony> Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. > >Don't know about the 150, but that approach (rows and columns of light >beams) is how the touch panels on PLATO terminals -- starting early in >the 1970s -- worked. Of course it's easier when the screen is flat, >as it always has been for plasma displays. > > paul ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From allain at panix.com Thu May 19 10:58:16 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:58:16 -0400 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com><428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: <047401c55c8b$928dc020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> With all this talk about archiving and live media storage I just flashed back again to the 80's and the seemingly lost concept of a Read-Only hard drive. This would be great for virus proofing long-term data today. Anybody know of an add-on hack for IDE or SCSI that will do this? Envisioned is a ribbon cable with a line or two cut but I imagine if it was that simple people would already make them. John A. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 11:44:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:44:39 +0000 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <047401c55c8b$928dc020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> <047401c55c8b$928dc020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1116521079.29178.34.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:58 -0400, John Allain wrote: > With all this talk about archiving and live media storage I > just flashed back again to the 80's and the seemingly lost > concept of a Read-Only hard drive. This would be great > for virus proofing long-term data today. Anybody know of > an add-on hack for IDE or SCSI that will do this? Envisioned > is a ribbon cable with a line or two cut but I imagine if it was > that simple people would already make them. Most older SCSI drives had a WP jumper; newer ones maybe do too. I can't remember if WP is brought out to one of the pins on a drive with an SCA connector though... Hmm, it doesn't appear to be. I've given up on tape and optical media for storage.... I backup and mirror to several drives that are normally kept off-line. I suppose if I only wanted read-only access, I'd mount the drives that way from software :) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 11:54:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <200505191654.JAA23097@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 05:17 PM 5/18/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>Hi >> There is a good chance it is an interface part. >>Remember the 8008 bus is not TTL. > > ???? Ok then what is it? The first page in my Intel 8008 manual says >"TTL Compatible (Input, Output and Clocks)". Or am I missing something? > > Joe > > Hi Joe My bad. The spec sheet shows that it will work with TTL. The inputs can go to VDD but don't need to. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 12:09:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191709.KAA23102@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> > It seems that may of you are missing the point. The archives >> > are intended to be useable in say 500 years ( moved to >> > future media ). Any proprietary application like WinRAR >> > is useless for this purpose. >> >> I think that *you* are missing the point that *no* archive can last that long >> except maybe paper. (I say this because the media reader for paper is... all > >You're interpretting what Dwight is saying within your own context. >Dwight is referring to the content itself, not the media on which the >content (The Archive) is stored. Thanks Sellam I'm debating even keeping things in ASCII for long term. Binary is close to the original but lacks the ability to add format type information. I still like to keep it human readable in something like ASCII. ASCII has a relatively long history in the computer industry. Once the information has been determined, by some future computer geek, to be recoverable he( or she ) can quickly write a translation program to bring it into the current environment. In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal with that problem. Dwight > >> humans. 100 years from now I wouldn't expect to be able to read a >> DVD-ROM, for comparison.) Most digital archivsts agree that the goal is >> not 100 years, but 10-20 so that it can be transferred to the new >> generation of media every so often. > >This is now a given to anyone that's given it a couple moment's thought. One should try to look for media that has longer life but not as the only storage method. Paper has been remarkably good compared to some of the others. Overlapping of storage makes things safer. Dwight From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 19 12:11:39 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:11:39 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <17035.36176.839526.81587@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> <1116373483.25648.109.camel@weka.localdomain> <428B89AA.9020503@oldskool.org> <17035.36176.839526.81587@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 2:45 PM -0400 5/18/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: > > Jim> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>> The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the > >>> end. Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? > >> Ahh, no not at the time. I've just tried it now though and it > >> seems remarkably good at recovering from corruption in the TOC > >> area. Actually, looking at the zip file it appears to have > >> something resembling a file header before each file in the archive > >> as well as the TOC at the end. > > Jim> As long as we're talking about fault-tolerant archives, neither > Jim> TAR nor ZIP are acceptable. For years I've used RAR (WinRAR for > Jim> windows, RAR and RAR32 for DOS) which has "recovery record" > Jim> support (parity info). ... > >If you want fault tolerance, it may be a good idea to learn the topic >of "erasure codes" -- a general concept for way to split data into N+K >pieces such that you can reconstruct the data from any N pieces (for N >and K chosen to be whatever you wish). Error Correcting and Detecting Codes are a huge topic in and of themselves. Fire Codes and others are designed to correct for particular expected error characteristics (e.g., contiguous bit errors of some maximum length, block errors, random bit errors, etc.). I'm not sure about completely arbitrary N and K; last I looked there were tradeoffs and optimizations based on the expected characteristics. For example, the error characteristics (and thus detection/correction capability) of a space-earth link is different from that of a 9-track magtape, which is different from that of any sort of disk. >VMS also implemented the XOR thing you mentioned in the BACKUP >utility (as did RSTS, of course -- since it supports the same >format). Yes, Andy Goldstein (or whoever, but I think Andy wrote the first version) really did a nice job in VMS BACKUP. I once wrote a program to read such tapes on a Unix system and needed to learn the techniques used. Very nice. Indeed an entire /BLOCK_SIZE block of data within one /GROUP_SIZE could be completely corrupted on tape, yet BACKUP could correctly restore it. John From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:18:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:18:19 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <200505190300.XAA01556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>; from mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca on Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:54:41PM -0400 References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> <200505182219.SAA29803@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <428BFDC0.8030604@oldskool.org> <200505190300.XAA01556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050519121818.A26378@homer.berkhirt.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:54:41PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > > You'll be creating files that can only be extracted with your > > version. > > And this is different from using rar, or zip, or whatever, how? You > *always* need a program to read the format in question (or docs enough > to produce such a program). The only difference I can see is the > wideness of spread of the format and/or programs to read it, and if Exactly. People would get a file ending in .tar and have no idea they can't extract it until it's too late. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 12:27:25 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:27:25 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <022fee0be13b17416240928268e3d6fd@bitsavers.org> Yes, Andy Goldstein (or whoever, but I think Andy wrote the first version) really did a nice job in VMS BACKUP. I once wrote a program to read such tapes on a Unix system and needed to learn the techniques used. Very nice. Indeed an entire /BLOCK_SIZE block of data within one /GROUP_SIZE could be completely corrupted on tape, yet BACKUP could correctly restore it. John -- Do you still have this (I assume it's different from the various C versions of "VMSBACKUP" floating around) That program does not do a very good job of recovering from archive errors. There appears to be very little written down about the variations in the VMS Backup format as well. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:29:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:29:52 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org>; from pat@computer-refuge.org on Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:45:44PM -0500 References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050519122952.B26378@homer.berkhirt.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:45:44PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Randy McLaughlin declared on Wednesday 18 May 2005 10:26 pm: > > Lately I've been using self-extracting zip files. The reason is that > > just by renaming the file from *.exe to *.zip most decompressors > > handle it just fine and for 99% of the people it includes the software > > to decompress it. > > So, to fan the flames, what's wrong with tar? TAR doesn't deal gracefully with non-ASCII filename encodings (or otherwise unconventional names, like spaces in the filename), or files over a certain size. There's nothing wrong with TAR as long as the above limitations don't apply to what you're using it for. My point at the beginning of the thread was that I don't think archive programs should be damned simply because they run on a certain platform. That's extremely narrow thinking. (I'm not accusing you of that at all, just commenting on the thread responses in general.) -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 12:28:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:28:45 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505191709.KAA23102@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505191709.KAA23102@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1116523725.29178.43.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 10:09 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm debating even keeping things in ASCII for long term. Binary > is close to the original but lacks the ability to add format type > information. I still like to keep it human readable in something > like ASCII. ASCII has a relatively long history in the computer > industry. Well something like XML supports different character encodings and so should take care of that aspect. I still don't like munging native binary data into some other format though for the sake of preservation; I'd rather treat that as binary and provide metadata / indexing alongside it, or in a seperate section or whatever. > In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems > of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal > with that problem. Well, I don't think anyone's really thought about it yet - but including as much info as possible in the metadata for a particular archive at least gives some confidence that it *can* be indexed... cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 12:33:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191733.KAA23111@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >It works for the largest base, even for those that are just now ready to >learn. > >I am not advocating winzip as a perfect system, just a system that fits my >personal desire to spread archives to as many as want to download them. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Hi Randy For what you are doing, providing data to users, you are doing the right thing. For an archive, it is the wrong thing. For an archive, one should have the least and simplest amount of encoding or remoteness from the original as possible. Feeding the information into a form such as a zip does not meet that criteria. Providing data to the users in the most universal and current format is the proper thing for an archivist to do in many cases ( like you do ). Still, you have shut out many MAC users and some of those that are so far in the past that they are still running on a 8080 CP/M machine. Imagine that some future archivist digs up Sellams library. He must first realize that he needs something that interprets x86 instructions to unwind the encoding. He then has to figure out what the purpose of the data was. Many here have made the assumption that the information would smoothly be moved along to the next current media and retranslated to the next handy compaction or encapsulation tool. The real world isn't like that. There will be gaps in the maintenance. For many reasons, like budgets or just apathy. A good archivist need to do the best to anticipate this and consider this as part of their strategy. Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:35:02 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:35:02 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: ; from vcf@siconic.com on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 07:34:24AM -0700 References: <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050519123502.C26378@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 07:34:24AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > You can not plan on what is the next best archival tool and you can't > > please everyone. Use what you have and try to make it so most people can > > handle it one way or another. > > My suggestion is to stay away from proprietary compressed binary formats. *Everything* is a proprietary binary format, and in the grand scheme of things, compression is simply a binary encoding. That's why I think damning a certain archiving program/format just because of the platform it runs onis silly. I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as more than one major platform can extract it. (Not directed at Sellam, just commenting on all thread participants.) -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu May 19 12:37:23 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:37:23 -0400 Subject: Price of Gas in Ohio (Dayton Hamfest) In-Reply-To: <200505191700.j4JH0ZHR042148@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505191737.j4JHbLWZ026731@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> If you are a member of a warehouse club (Sam's, BJ's, etc.) that sells gas, it is not uncommon for their gas prices to be 20 to 30 cents per gallon less than "gas stations". We easily pay for our Sam's and BJ's memberships just with our savings on gas purchases. In Dayton, there is a Sam's club that sells gas just west of I-75, just South of I-70 (take 75 South from the 70/75 intersection, and I think you get off at the first exit, it's a bit further south on the west side of the surface street that runs west of I-75). There are probably other locations and other wholesale clubs, but that's the only one that I know of. Debating now between going tomorrow (Friday) or Sat, weather looks better for Sat. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:37:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:37:45 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <1116523725.29178.43.camel@weka.localdomain>; from julesrichardsonuk@yahoo.co.uk on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 05:28:45PM +0000 References: <200505191709.KAA23102@clulw009.amd.com> <1116523725.29178.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050519123745.D26378@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 05:28:45PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I still don't like munging native binary data into some other format > though for the sake of preservation; I'd rather treat that as binary and > provide metadata / indexing alongside it, or in a seperate section or > whatever. I agree 100%. I've done this for all of my data and it has proven, for me, to be the easist way to translate information across platforms. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 12:34:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505191709.KAA23102@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems > of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal > with that problem. Google :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 19 12:38:16 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:38:16 +0100 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <022fee0be13b17416240928268e3d6fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000801c55c99$8b726990$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Al Kossow wrote: > There appears to be very little written down about the variations in > the VMS Backup format as well. I think the last time the format was documented was in an appendix to one of the VAX/VMS V3 manuals. Not much has (apparently) changed since then. You can get backup to spit out a fair amount of info by adding /ANALYZE to a BACKUP/LIST command. And the source listings are available. So the stuff may not be around in an easy-to-program format, but the info does exist. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 12:39:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <1116523725.29178.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 10:09 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > I'm debating even keeping things in ASCII for long term. Binary > > is close to the original but lacks the ability to add format type > > information. I still like to keep it human readable in something > > like ASCII. ASCII has a relatively long history in the computer > > industry. > > Well something like XML supports different character encodings and so > should take care of that aspect. > > I still don't like munging native binary data into some other format > though for the sake of preservation; I'd rather treat that as binary and > provide metadata / indexing alongside it, or in a seperate section or > whatever. Here's a probably lame idea: since Unicode characters are basically 16-bit, and since a hex-as-ascii-encoded 8-bit byte is 16-bits, would it be reasonable to store the actual binary data as the low order byte in a Unicode character and have the upper byte be something like 0xFF? That being said, I still prefer the simplicity of straight-up ASCII. > > In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems > > of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal > > with that problem. > > Well, I don't think anyone's really thought about it yet - but including > as much info as possible in the metadata for a particular archive at > least gives some confidence that it *can* be indexed... With adequate metadata, a search engine like Google is all the indexing you really need as it's simple, effective, and takes place without you knowing or needing to know about it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 12:43:28 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:43:28 -0700 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: It is likely they are Fairchild's version of the 1101. I just checked my 1969 catalog, and their other MOS parts were in the 3xxx range (they hadn't started making RAM then though). Will try to find a catalog in the pre '75 range (they appear to have gone out of production by 75) From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 12:43:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519123502.C26378@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 07:34:24AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > You can not plan on what is the next best archival tool and you can't > > > please everyone. Use what you have and try to make it so most people can > > > handle it one way or another. > > > > My suggestion is to stay away from proprietary compressed binary formats. > > *Everything* is a proprietary binary format, and in the grand scheme > of things, compression is simply a binary encoding. That's why I > think damning a certain archiving program/format just because of the > platform it runs onis silly. This misses the point entirely. With a ZIP archive you are munging the raw data into something it is not. I guess if you wanted to be psycho you could also consider ASCII to be a "proprietary binary format", but 40 years of history and standardization would disagree with you. See Dwight's last reply re: archivist standards. Putting stuff in a ZIP file is NOT archiving. > I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a > windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some > popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. > Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So > what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as > more than one major platform can extract it. For now. What about 1 year from now? 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? 500 years? Think LONGTERM. > (Not directed at Sellam, just commenting on all thread participants.) Ain't no thang ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu May 19 12:47:35 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:47:35 +0100 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519123502.C26378@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jim Leonard wrote: > Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So > what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long > as more than one major platform can extract it. What's C? Will that be less dead in 100 years than Algol is today? I know Algol's not completely dead - but it's certainly declining ... How long before C is no longer available everywhere? How long before your source no longer compiles without significant effort? I have no problems with including a ready made unarchiver, but you also must include a textual specification of the archive format. After another fifty years have passed and the state of the art has advanced sufficiently, you can upgrade the archive to include a povably correct specification :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:50:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:50:17 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505191733.KAA23111@clulw009.amd.com>; from dwight.elvey@amd.com on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:33:26AM -0700 References: <200505191733.KAA23111@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050519125017.E26378@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:33:26AM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > For an archive, one should have the least and simplest > amount of encoding or remoteness from the original as > possible. Yes, but now we can argue semantics until the cows come home. What *is* the simplest amount of encoding, and more importantly, what is the *original* itself? Is it ASCII? If so, is it ASCII in a file on a disk, or printed out on paper? Is it just the letters themselves? Or is it the *information* represented by the ASCII that is the original? How far up do you want to go? The ideas represented by the communicated information? That's why I find format discussions so frustrating. If I write an article discussing some programming topic, and I do it in a straight text editor and save as an ASCII text file on a floppy disk, and then compress that file using RAR (which adds error-correcting code to the archive) and distribute it online, what is "the original"? Is it the RAR archive... or the extracted text file... or the information itself contained in the file? > Still, you have shut out many MAC users No, it's a .ZIP file. ZIP for Mac has existed since the early 1990s and as I wrote before there is a source code distribution ZIP archive extractor so... > and some of those that are so far in the past that > they are still running on a 8080 CP/M machine. ...they can compile the ZIP extractor from source. Unless the 8080 CP/M machine doesn't have a C compiler, in which case it would most likely have no reason whatsoever to extract the data in the first place (common practice is to extract it on a capable platform, then transfer over to the older machine). > Imagine that some future archivist digs up Sellams library. > He must first realize that he needs something that interprets > x86 instructions to unwind the encoding. He then has to figure > out what the purpose of the data was. I think figuring out the purpose will be exponentially harder than finding an x86 box to extract the data. Besides, as previously discussed, the x86 factor is moot due to the availability of source-code archive extractor distributions. > Many here have made the assumption that the information would > smoothly be moved along to the next current media and retranslated > to the next handy compaction or encapsulation tool. > The real world isn't like that. There will be gaps in the > maintenance. For many reasons, like budgets or just apathy. > A good archivist need to do the best to anticipate this > and consider this as part of their strategy. I do agree with you on this point. I just think shouting "ASCII only" is too short-sighted. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 12:55:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:55:11 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net>; from chenmel@earthlink.net on Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:12:35PM -0500 References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050519125511.A28237@homer.berkhirt.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:12:35PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license plate, I What state is that? Is there a list of states where I could do something like this legally? -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 12:55:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191755.KAA23135@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" ---snip--- > >I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a >windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some >popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. >Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So >what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as >more than one major platform can extract it. > Hi We then have a library with the one key. If it just happens to be that key that gets lost, and keys do get lost, we call the lock smith and hope he can unlock it. Maybe I'm just thinking a little beyond where you are at. Extra levels are not good. I can't find a way to make it any clearer than that. If you've ever spent some time actually recovering corrupted data you'd understand. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 12:57:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:57:14 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505191733.KAA23111@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <007001c55c9c$34047c90$3592d6d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:33 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > ---snip--- >> >>It works for the largest base, even for those that are just now ready to >>learn. >> >>I am not advocating winzip as a perfect system, just a system that fits my >>personal desire to spread archives to as many as want to download them. >> >> >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com > > Hi Randy > For what you are doing, providing data to users, you are > doing the right thing. For an archive, it is the wrong thing. > For an archive, one should have the least and simplest > amount of encoding or remoteness from the original as > possible. Feeding the information into a form such as a zip > does not meet that criteria. > Providing data to the users in the most universal and current > format is the proper thing for an archivist to do in many > cases ( like you do ). Still, you have shut out many MAC > users and some of those that are so far in the past that > they are still running on a 8080 CP/M machine. > Imagine that some future archivist digs up Sellams library. > He must first realize that he needs something that interprets > x86 instructions to unwind the encoding. He then has to figure > out what the purpose of the data was. > Many here have made the assumption that the information would > smoothly be moved along to the next current media and retranslated > to the next handy compaction or encapsulation tool. > The real world isn't like that. There will be gaps in the > maintenance. For many reasons, like budgets or just apathy. > A good archivist need to do the best to anticipate this > and consider this as part of their strategy. > Dwight I obviously need to make the directions clearer: Many MAC & Linux users have emailed be asking to send them particular files in different formats so they could decompress it. So far when I restate that just by renaming the file they can use it, they try and it works. I have yet to find any of the files I put in a self extracting archive that everyone using anything close to current hardware can't extract. This means that the only systems that can not extract the archival data meant for classic computers are the classic computers themselves :-(. Limiting the archives to the tools available for the machine it is meant for would exclude the people that need it most, "Windoze only" users need to have their hands held to get started. I expect people with 20-30 years of computer experience to be able to handle both classic & current tools. As far as any of this goes I expect that just as I have repackaged the data from cards/tapes/disks/scans of print outs/etc in the future the zip/tar/etc packages will be repackaged again. I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back and extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to figure out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M packaging/squeeze formats. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 13:06:21 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:21 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: Message-ID: <00b901c55c9d$7a6aaf00$3592d6d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 12:43 PM > On Thu, 19 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> *Everything* is a proprietary binary format, and in the grand scheme >> of things, compression is simply a binary encoding. That's why I >> think damning a certain archiving program/format just because of the >> platform it runs onis silly. > > This misses the point entirely. With a ZIP archive you are munging the > raw data into something it is not. I guess if you wanted to be psycho you > could also consider ASCII to be a "proprietary binary format", but 40 > years of history and standardization would disagree with you. > > See Dwight's last reply re: archivist standards. Putting stuff in a ZIP > file is NOT archiving. > >> I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a >> windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some >> popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. >> Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So >> what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as >> more than one major platform can extract it. > > For now. What about 1 year from now? 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? 100 > years? 500 years? > > Think LONGTERM. > >> (Not directed at Sellam, just commenting on all thread participants.) > > Ain't no thang ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] There is no guaranteed method to go 500 years, the only reasonable thing is to go with the best available. In this case best means a format understood by the majority. In the future ZIP formats will be better understood than any other current format for the simple reason there are more zip files to examine than any other. Packaging data understood by a tiny fraction of the world guarantees that it will be near impossible to use in the future. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 13:08:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:08:18 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back and extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to figure out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M packaging/squeeze formats. -- Verifying that all of these files are 'correct' of course.. One thing to be VERY careful of is reinjecting files that were bad and fixed later into reencoded archives. When I was more active in arcade game ROM archiving, we ran into this constantly, where someone would find corrupt ROM data and declare them as 'new' versions of the game. A CRC (now SHA1) checking scheme eventually evolved to index what had already been shown to be correct (either though simulation or by finding duplicates of the physical ROMS) as well as a utility to detect when ROM dumps had things like stuck adr or data bits. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 13:09:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:09:27 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: ; from vcf@siconic.com on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:43:09AM -0700 References: <20050519123502.C26378@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <20050519130927.B28237@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:43:09AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > See Dwight's last reply re: archivist standards. Putting stuff in a ZIP > file is NOT archiving. For me, archiving has always been about preserving information. It has had nothing to do with the transport mechanism of that information. ZIP is a transport mechanism; an encoding of information, just like an ASCII file is an encoding of information. If I have an old hardware manual, and I scan it, OCR it (accurately!) to text, format the text in the same way it is typeset in the book (ie. to preserve tables, equations, etc.) and do so via HTML, and put it on the web -- did I not just archive the book? If all of the information is available, what's the big deal? What is lost in the translation? > > I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a > > windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some > > popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. > > Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So > > what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as > > more than one major platform can extract it. > > For now. What about 1 year from now? 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? 100 > years? 500 years? > > Think LONGTERM. LONGTERM the information will have been translated to new media/medium by then. When you want to read the constitution of the US, do you travel all the way to Washington, D.C. or do you look it up online? Is the online version any less properly archived? If LONGTERM is truly a concern then why is the information being stored as ASCII data files at all? I can think of a lot more durable information transport mechanisms than hard disks or magnetic tape... > > (Not directed at Sellam, just commenting on all thread participants.) > > Ain't no thang ;) :-) -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 13:10:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:10:28 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <00b901c55c9d$7a6aaf00$3592d6d1@randy>; from cctalk@randy482.com on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 01:06:21PM -0500 References: <00b901c55c9d$7a6aaf00$3592d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050519131028.C28237@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 01:06:21PM -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > There is no guaranteed method to go 500 years, the only reasonable thing is > to go with the best available. > > In this case best means a format understood by the majority. > > In the future ZIP formats will be better understood than any other current > format for the simple reason there are more zip files to examine than any > other. My point exactly. Thank you for so eloquently wording it. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu May 19 13:12:15 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:12:15 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1116526335.5185.17.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 18:47 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So > > what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long > > as more than one major platform can extract it. > > What's C? Will that be less dead in 100 years than Algol is today? > > I know Algol's not completely dead - but it's certainly declining ... > How long before C is no longer available everywhere? How long before > your source no longer compiles without significant effort? > > I have no problems with including a ready made unarchiver, but you > also must include a textual specification of the archive format. > Why not include full specs for the computer the data is supposed to be on as well as how to build the computer -- and don't forget to include an ascii chart and an english dictionary so they can figure out the instructions! The format issue suffers from the same problem as the media issue does: there is no such thing is an eternal format. To put it simply: its the content, stupid. We're not building a time capsule (to everyone who's been complaining about data accessibility 500 years out). I see it as an archive in the LIBRARY sense of the word. Who is the target audience, really? Is it some future generation (only) which might have no interest in CP/M -- or is it collectors NOW who would like to preserve the content for themselves and the future? I think its the latter. The bundling file formats are not going to ever be designed for the future correctly. Ever. We should have something that is useful today and upgradable in the future. Once the data is extracted and collected into an archive, "updating" it to whatever format the future uses will be a simple as: for n in *.zip; do mkdir temp cd temp unzip ../$n newarchive ../whatever.new . cd .. rm -rf temp done (hehe, since unix and sh will live forever :) The same holds true for the meta data portions of the package. If we use XML or plain text or whatever, its a simple matter of programming to convert it to the Format of the Future(tm). The trick is to make it comprehensive enough to provide the information which may be needed later and easily updated for future systems. Brian From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 13:12:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191812.LAA23141@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems >> of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal >> with that problem. > >Google :) > Hi It works surprisingly well but it still misses a lot. Like when I was looking for the data sheets of the WD1100V-01. The information was out there, it just wasn't indexed. Most document writing programs today have that automatic indexing by marking things as you go along to place in the index. It requires that someone actually realizes what needs to be indexed. Then comes the problem of cross references. Add to that synonyms. I was looking through the directories of one of the images I'd captured from the Polymorphic stuff and found that a disk labeled "GAMES" contained a version of Forth. That may have been the persons personal feelings about it but it was not good indexing. My guess is that Google is missing 90 to 95% of the relevant information out there. If you include site links on individual pages that improves to about 85% at best. Now, add to that the problem of something that exist but gets somehow placed in the wrong place. Indexing will be the biggest challenge! Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 19 13:14:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:14:48 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505191755.KAA23135@clulw009.amd.com>; from dwight.elvey@amd.com on Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:55:37AM -0700 References: <200505191755.KAA23135@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050519131448.D28237@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:55:37AM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > We then have a library with the one key. There are billions of .ZIP files. I don't think we're going to "lose the key" any time soon. > Maybe I'm just thinking a little beyond where you are at. Extra > levels are not good. I can't find a way to make it any clearer > than that. > If you've ever spent some time actually recovering corrupted > data you'd understand. You're assuming I haven't. And besides, in my RAR example, recovering corrupted data is actually easier than raw data due to the use of ECC embedded in the archive. So while you're struggling for days trying to make sense of mangled flux reversals on some disk/tape somewhere, I will simply read what I can and ECC the rest in 30 seconds. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 13:17:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need National Semiconductor MM5740AAE Message-ID: I am in great need of a working NS MM5740AAE keyboard encoder. I have a Datanetics keyboard with one of these in which testing has led me to believe it is bad. I'm willing to pay a reasonable price. Even getting a whole Datanetics keyboard with the proper encoder would be welcome. Please reply off-list if you have one you'd like to sell. Trades also considered of course. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 13:27:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191827.LAA23146@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back and >extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then >repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to figure >out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M >packaging/squeeze formats. > > Hi Randy What you are doing is great! Don't get me wrong. All I'm saying is that archiving shouldn't be making it harder to read. As you have just stated yourself, some older obsolete formats are a pain. Even zip will be obsolete someday ( not today ). You seem to be confusing the distribution of information with archiving. These are completely different problems. You don't need to defend you methods of distribution with me. I don't know if I could do any better. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 19 13:36:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:36:58 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <0IGR00N3U2C44I27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Joe R." >> >>At 05:17 PM 5/18/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>Hi >>> There is a good chance it is an interface part. >>>Remember the 8008 bus is not TTL. >> >> ???? Ok then what is it? The first page in my Intel 8008 manual says >>"TTL Compatible (Input, Output and Clocks)". Or am I missing something? >> >> Joe >> >> > >Hi Joe > My bad. The spec sheet shows that it will work with TTL. >The inputs can go to VDD but don't need to. >Dwight > My Databooks and drawings from when I was designing with the beastie says with +5 Vcc and -9Vdd all IO will be TTL compatable. FYI back in that time frame Signetics, Intel and Fairchild had a DTL/TTL product in the 3xxx class numbering. For example: 3205 similar to 74138 may be differnt pinout 3009 similar to 7432 9602 onshot similar to 74123 however the 9602 was truly a better part. 3404 8bit wide latch maybe similar to 74100 or 74373 1101 256x1 Pmos (two voltages) and really slow (1.5us parts were the fast ones) There were others but those appear on my drawing and those of the MCS-8. The greatest part of that era, 2102 1kx1 1us (initial pricing $16 ea). Allison From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 13:43:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:43:09 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505191812.LAA23141@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001e01c55ca2$9e4f1f50$5a92d6d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:12 PM > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >>On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >>> In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems >>> of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal >>> with that problem. >> >>Google :) >> > > Hi > It works surprisingly well but it still misses a lot. > Like when I was looking for the data sheets of the WD1100V-01. > The information was out there, it just wasn't indexed. > Most document writing programs today have that automatic > indexing by marking things as you go along to place in > the index. It requires that someone actually realizes > what needs to be indexed. Then comes the problem of cross > references. Add to that synonyms. > I was looking through the directories of one of the images > I'd captured from the Polymorphic stuff and found that > a disk labeled "GAMES" contained a version of Forth. > That may have been the persons personal feelings > about it but it was not good indexing. > My guess is that Google is missing 90 to 95% of the > relevant information out there. If you include site links > on individual pages that improves to about 85% at best. > Now, add to that the problem of something that exist > but gets somehow placed in the wrong place. > Indexing will be the biggest challenge! > Dwight Amen, when the SMC link to the chips was posted I downloaded a copy. I was also interested in the other chips in the same set (1010,2010, etc). I decided to check bitsavers and there they were (thanks Al), all in the westerndigital folder as databooks, etc. Several megabytes later I had what I wanted. On a separate post I mentioned cross support/cross linking. It was my clumsy way of saying indexing. I would be nice if people pitched in and just did it. I may make a list of all of the chips listed in the individual PDF's that Al has posted for the westerndigital datasheets. If Al then posts this index with the PDF's (or creates an index folder) so the googlebot can scan it then a google search would point you where to get it. Simple with the task easily shared amoung many people. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From Tim at rikers.org Thu May 19 13:46:24 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:46:24 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519130927.B28237@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <20050519123502.C26378@homer.berkhirt.com> <20050519130927.B28237@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <428CDF00.1020606@Rikers.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > LONGTERM the information will have been translated to new > media/medium by then. When you want to read the constitution of the > US, do you travel all the way to Washington, D.C. or do you look it > up online? Is the online version any less properly archived? Of course! the online version is completely missing the map on the back side. =) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 13:54:34 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:54:34 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505191827.LAA23146@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002501c55ca4$363bd550$5a92d6d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:27 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > ---snip--- >> >>I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back >>and >>extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then >>repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to figure >>out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M >>packaging/squeeze formats. >> >> > > Hi Randy > What you are doing is great! Don't get me wrong. All > I'm saying is that archiving shouldn't be making it harder > to read. As you have just stated yourself, some older > obsolete formats are a pain. Even zip will be obsolete > someday ( not today ). > You seem to be confusing the distribution of information > with archiving. These are completely different problems. > You don't need to defend you methods of distribution > with me. I don't know if I could do any better. > Dwight My words are often terse and sound abrasive, obviously that's not the way I mean it. I'm a Texan and Irish, it may be racist but I truly am as hard headed as it sounds. I understand the difference between archiving and distribution but in my mind there is a relation: I over use the Library of Alexandria as an example of histories greatest archive. It was a true archive but it held unique data existing nowhere else. When it burned down most of history to that point was lost. Distribution can be an archival tool, I recommend people download as much of my site as possible. God forbid if later today I get hit by a car I don't want the information I've gathered to be lost. Any single archive can be lost (no matter what anyone thinks). For me the true archiving of the data includes redundancy, that is why most of my site is mirrors of other sites. I send material related to other sites to the proper webmaster and try to make sure it is mirrored. I also keep personal copies of information both on my site and others. If my site disappears I hope someone else will put my information up somewhere. That is why my site is oriented toward distribution. he psystem portion includes the material as well as the tools to use it on PC's, etc. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 19 14:02:00 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:02:00 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050519133303.04d37ea0@mail> There's plenty of file system meta-data out there to confound this process. Blindly archiving and un-archiving will destroy data that's not inside the file. There's a lot to be said for archiving images of entire filesystems. What, timestamps aren't important? Creation dates as well as last-modified dates? Archive bits? At least 'tar' preserves Unix's groups and permissions to a reasonable degree. The Mac has always had data and resource forks and all the cross-platform confusion that goes with them. Microsoft added hooks to NTFS to let files have split forks like this; lately they've been used by spyware and viruses to hide payloads. I recall file comment fields in Amiga filenames: rarely used for practical applications, but there none the less. Even AmigaDOS's own operations were cruel to them; I seem to remember that its early "copy" commands didn't copy these notes but "diskcopy" obviously would. Similarly, even today, Windows doesn't preserve the timestamp on directories when 'xcopy'-ing from place to place. What, timestamps aren't valuable info? - John From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 14:14:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <007001c55c9c$34047c90$3592d6d1@randy> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > This means that the only systems that can not extract the archival data > meant for classic computers are the classic computers themselves :-(. > Limiting the archives to the tools available for the machine it is meant for > would exclude the people that need it most, "Windoze only" users need to > have their hands held to get started. I expect people with 20-30 years of > computer experience to be able to handle both classic & current tools. Why does this even need to be so? Can't you offer a ZIP archive if that's what you insist on, but also just have a link to a directory right next to the ZIP download link that has the contents of the archive uncompressed? It seems this would solve everyone's problem, and also make the archive more stable for the longterm. > I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back and > extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then > repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to figure > out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M > packaging/squeeze formats. Why bother packing it at all? Just leave it in it's unadultered original format. Bandwidth and disk space is cheap, and is only getting cheaper. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 14:15:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <00b901c55c9d$7a6aaf00$3592d6d1@randy> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > There is no guaranteed method to go 500 years, the only reasonable thing is > to go with the best available. I'll interpret that to mean no compression, no archive formats, etc. Just offer the actual content. > In this case best means a format understood by the majority. Right, which is no format at all. > In the future ZIP formats will be better understood than any other current > format for the simple reason there are more zip files to examine than any > other. That's a very risky prediction. > Packaging data understood by a tiny fraction of the world guarantees that it > will be near impossible to use in the future. So don't package it at all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 14:21:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519130927.B28237@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:43:09AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > See Dwight's last reply re: archivist standards. Putting stuff in a ZIP > > file is NOT archiving. > > For me, archiving has always been about preserving information. It > has had nothing to do with the transport mechanism of that > information. ZIP is a transport mechanism; an encoding of > information, just like an ASCII file is an encoding of information. > > If I have an old hardware manual, and I scan it, OCR it > (accurately!) to text, format the text in the same way it is typeset > in the book (ie. to preserve tables, equations, etc.) and do so via > HTML, and put it on the web -- did I not just archive the book? If > all of the information is available, what's the big deal? What is > lost in the translation? You preserved the information. Well done. But by putting it inside a ZIP archive and making THAT your distribution medium, you've made a fantastic error. > > > I see people on the thread complaining about having to bundle a > > > windows emulator with each archive. Excuse me? Let's look at some > > > popular formats: TAR, ZIP, RAR all have source-code unarchivers. > > > Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So > > > what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long as > > > more than one major platform can extract it. > > > > For now. What about 1 year from now? 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? 100 > > years? 500 years? > > > > Think LONGTERM. > > LONGTERM the information will have been translated to new > media/medium by then. There is no guarantee of this. None whatsoever. Unless you can predict the future, in which case why are you wasting your time with me when you should be out controlling the world? ;) > If LONGTERM is truly a concern then why is the information being > stored as ASCII data files at all? Perhaps because ASCII is "the bottom"? There's no where else to go. > I can think of a lot more durable information transport mechanisms than > hard disks or magnetic tape... With denser data storage? > > > (Not directed at Sellam, just commenting on all thread participants.) > > > > Ain't no thang ;) > > :-) :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 14:30:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:30:13 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050519133303.04d37ea0@mail> Message-ID: <001801c55ca9$315af480$363cd7d1@randy> From: "John Foust" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:02 PM > There's plenty of file system meta-data out there to confound > this process. Blindly archiving and un-archiving will destroy > data that's not inside the file. There's a lot to be said for > archiving images of entire filesystems. What, timestamps > aren't important? Creation dates as well as last-modified dates? > Archive bits? At least 'tar' preserves Unix's groups and > permissions to a reasonable degree. > > The Mac has always had data and resource forks and all the > cross-platform confusion that goes with them. Microsoft added > hooks to NTFS to let files have split forks like this; lately > they've been used by spyware and viruses to hide payloads. > > I recall file comment fields in Amiga filenames: rarely used for > practical applications, but there none the less. Even AmigaDOS's > own operations were cruel to them; I seem to remember that > its early "copy" commands didn't copy these notes but "diskcopy" > obviously would. Similarly, even today, Windows doesn't preserve > the timestamp on directories when 'xcopy'-ing from place to place. > What, timestamps aren't valuable info? > > - John All of the tools I've been using includes the meta-data available but the data I'm archiving is for systems that either didn't impliment such data or as in CP/M v3 usually wasn't implimented. What meta-data is being preserved is often when I transfered the data to DOS and the like, some may be interested but it does not mean that a similar file with a different date is "newer" or "older" going by the meta-date info. Dates and hand written notes have been issues in some cases and from time to time I've included scans of labels in the archives. Some of the original DRI archives I sent to Gaby are examples especially of the working disks that were never distributed outside of DRI. On these disks that contain up to three versions (*.A86, *.BAK, and the deleted file) of the source code being developed I included teledisk images so people could look at these unique disks byte by byte. On other DRI disks that were normal distribution disks I only included the files since there was no "hidden" information not in the listed files. Xcopy can preserve the meta-data but defaults to not keeping it (stupid windoze). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 19 14:19:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519122952.B26378@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <200505182044.NAA22567@clulw009.amd.com> <428BFCA8.2060806@oldskool.org> <001501c55c22$94d3d040$263ed7d1@randy> <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050519122952.B26378@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <200505191934.PAA04354@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So, to fan the flames, what's wrong with tar? > TAR doesn't deal gracefully with non-ASCII filename encodings (or > otherwise unconventional names, like spaces in the filename), This may be a problem with some implementations; it is not a problem with the format. (The non-ASCII bit I'm not sure of; I certainly can't think of anything that would prevent non-ASCII filenames from working. And spaces in the filename the format has no problem with - though there are a depressing number of broken tar implementations out there; see Elizabeth Zwicky's little piece about torture-testing backup programs. As a minor plug, my tar gets the Zwicky tests about as right as possible, I believe.) > My point at the beginning of the thread was that I don't think > archive programs should be damned simply because they run on a > certain platform. True. But I *do* think it reasonable to damn an archiver because it runs *only* on a certain platform - especially if the format itself is closed enough to preclude implementations on other platforms. Note that I do not claim that any of the archivers mentioned by name upthread fit this description. The few of them that I know do not, but I don't know about the rest. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 14:40:00 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:40:00 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: Message-ID: <002301c55caa$8f399b00$363cd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:14 PM > On Thu, 19 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> This means that the only systems that can not extract the archival data >> meant for classic computers are the classic computers themselves :-(. >> Limiting the archives to the tools available for the machine it is meant >> for >> would exclude the people that need it most, "Windoze only" users need to >> have their hands held to get started. I expect people with 20-30 years >> of >> computer experience to be able to handle both classic & current tools. > > Why does this even need to be so? Can't you offer a ZIP archive if that's > what you insist on, but also just have a link to a directory right next to > the ZIP download link that has the contents of the archive uncompressed? > It seems this would solve everyone's problem, and also make the archive > more stable for the longterm. > >> I have some archives that are archives of archives and intend to go back >> and >> extract the original archives into un-packaged treed directories then >> repackage into just a zip format so that future users don't have to >> figure >> out the zip format to then have to figure out the myriad of CP/M >> packaging/squeeze formats. > > Why bother packing it at all? Just leave it in it's unadultered original > format. Bandwidth and disk space is cheap, and is only getting cheaper. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Bandwidth and disk space is cheap if someone else is paying for it ;-) Packaging archives is useful for so many reasons: Effort of copying the data to the server and creating an organized structure, anyone that's been to my site knows how much effort I need to put into organizing it as is without adding more to do. Downloading whole chunks rather than piecemeal helps to preserve the data. No matter the cost packaged files take up 10% of the needs of unpackaged material. I still use dial-up at my house so it would be impractical for me and others to handle the 1000% increase in upload/download times. I do not have a perfect answer, I try to accommodate as many as is reasonably possible. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 14:41:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:41:11 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519125017.E26378@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <200505191733.KAA23111@clulw009.amd.com> <20050519125017.E26378@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <1116531671.29162.50.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 12:50 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > That's why I find format discussions so frustrating. If I write an > article discussing some programming topic, and I do it in a straight > text editor and save as an ASCII text file on a floppy disk, and > then compress that file using RAR (which adds error-correcting code > to the archive) and distribute it online, what is "the original"? > Is it the RAR archive... or the extracted text file... or the > information itself contained in the file? it's whatever the furthest-back thing in the process that lets you recreate any later stages is, I suppose. So in your example, the ASCII text file is the original; anyone could make a RAR file of that at a later date should they so want to. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 14:45:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191945.MAA23170@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" > >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 10:55:37AM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> We then have a library with the one key. > >There are billions of .ZIP files. I don't think we're going to "lose >the key" any time soon. > >> Maybe I'm just thinking a little beyond where you are at. Extra >> levels are not good. I can't find a way to make it any clearer >> than that. >> If you've ever spent some time actually recovering corrupted >> data you'd understand. > >You're assuming I haven't. And besides, in my RAR example, >recovering corrupted data is actually easier than raw data due to >the use of ECC embedded in the archive. So while you're struggling >for days trying to make sense of mangled flux reversals on some >disk/tape somewhere, I will simply read what I can and ECC the rest >in 30 seconds. Hi You are assuming that the ECC was not part of the corruption? Again, I don't think you have really done a recovery project. You've just allowed the tool to do it for you. You need a little more experience under your belt before you can truly understand the issues. Do you fully understand the limitations of ECC's? Have you actually worked with some of the algorithms? And yes, I can see a day when even ZIP might be lost. How many Mickey Mouse watches were made and how many exist today. Sometimes, being more common makes the item more likely to be lost. Again, I'm looking at how things have been treated in the past. What mistakes were made. These are the types of things that are most likely to trip us up in the future. If one doesn't learn from mistakes ...... Sorry for talking about such a volatile subject. I'm just glad that the person actually working on the project at the museum has researched the subject enough to recognize the many pitfalls. Dwight From dundas at caltech.edu Thu May 19 14:46:21 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:46:21 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <022fee0be13b17416240928268e3d6fd@bitsavers.org> References: <022fee0be13b17416240928268e3d6fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, At 10:27 AM -0700 5/19/05, Al Kossow wrote: >Do you still have this (I assume it's different from the various C >versions of "VMSBACKUP" >floating around) Yes, I think I could probably find it or some generation of it with some work. And yes, it was different from VMSBACKUP that made the rounds. I never published that bit of work. >That program does not do a very good job of recovering from archive errors. Don't know how that program works. As I remember, you need to keep /GROUP_SIZE buffers laying around at all times in order to perform the verification and error correction step. >There appears to be very little written down about the variations in >the VMS Backup >format as well. Quite true, but... At 6:38 PM +0100 5/19/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: >I think the last time the format was documented was in >an appendix to one of the VAX/VMS V3 manuals. Not much >has (apparently) changed since then. > >You can get backup to spit out a fair amount of info >by adding /ANALYZE to a BACKUP/LIST command. > >And the source listings are available. Indeed that is the way I discovered things. At the time I had a fiche reader on my desk at work (as well as a machine readable version of the V3 listings) and used /ANALYZE liberally. I still have some of the paper documents from V3 that specified the format. Would you like those scanned? Just out of curiosity, is this program something you could use Al? John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 14:46:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:46:26 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505191812.LAA23141@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505191812.LAA23141@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1116531986.29178.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:12 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > >> In any case, these are all academic in comparison to the problems > >> of indexing. I don't even have the beginings of how to deal > >> with that problem. > > > >Google :) > > > > Hi > It works surprisingly well but it still misses a lot. plus it can't do case-sensitive searches, or index common words. It's reasonably good for indexing websites, given the huge volume of data out there, but for narrow subject-specific searches it's probably a little too optimised at the expense of functionality. (funnily enough I get fed up recently with never being able to find half my data on local disk, so I'm playing around with "local" search and indexing algorithms at the moment) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 14:52:45 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191952.MAA23174@clulw009.amd.com> > >Distribution can be an archival tool, I recommend people download as much of >my site as possible. God forbid if later today I get hit by a car I don't >want the information I've gathered to be lost. > Hi A Great point not discussed so far in this bout! Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 14:56:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505191956.MAA23178@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Foust" > >There's plenty of file system meta-data out there to confound >this process. Blindly archiving and un-archiving will destroy >data that's not inside the file. There's a lot to be said for >archiving images of entire filesystems. What, timestamps >aren't important? Creation dates as well as last-modified dates? >Archive bits? At least 'tar' preserves Unix's groups and >permissions to a reasonable degree. > Hi In one file system I'm looking at, the directory contains the information as to what type of file it is ( not in the name of the file either ). Things like system only executable and word processor format are not encoded in the file name or the file it self on the one I'm looking at. Also, missing from the file are things like start address and load address. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 15:04:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505192004.NAA23183@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >Some of the original DRI archives I sent to Gaby are examples especially of >the working disks that were never distributed outside of DRI. On these >disks that contain up to three versions (*.A86, *.BAK, and the deleted file) >of the source code being developed I included teledisk images so people >could look at these unique disks byte by byte. ---snip--- Hi On one of the disk images I was recovering, someone had deleted the wrong copy of the program. The broken one was in the normally readable directory while the good one was marked deleted. I was able to recover this from a complete image. Of course, there is always the bits of confidential information that gets onto disk that was never intended to be archived forever ( still of interest to some future generation ). Dwight From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 19 15:20:12 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:20:12 -0500 Subject: New Find from hp today Message-ID: <00a901c55cb0$2f952470$15406b43@66067007> Picked up a hp 5326A Timer-Counter at a local thrift for $9 this morning on my way home. Have not tested it yet but it does seem to power on OK. From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 15:22:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:22:13 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: <200505192004.NAA23183@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002601c55cb0$74c6eb00$253cd7d1@randy> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:04 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > ---snip--- >>Some of the original DRI archives I sent to Gaby are examples especially >>of >>the working disks that were never distributed outside of DRI. On these >>disks that contain up to three versions (*.A86, *.BAK, and the deleted >>file) >>of the source code being developed I included teledisk images so people >>could look at these unique disks byte by byte. > ---snip--- > > Hi > On one of the disk images I was recovering, someone had deleted > the wrong copy of the program. The broken one was in the normally > readable directory while the good one was marked deleted. > I was able to recover this from a complete image. > Of course, there is always the bits of confidential information > that gets onto disk that was never intended to be archived > forever ( still of interest to some future generation ). > Dwight I learned a long time ago to scan entire disks for hidden treasures :-), as I said that's why I sometimes package the whole disk image. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 19 16:04:49 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:04:49 +0100 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes Message-ID: Hi folks, Recently I've picked up the bits of the infra-red Apricot keyboard that Jules investigated at my place and left in bits all over one of my sofas :) It's a membrane activated by springs and quite a lot of the keys don't register with the host machine which in wired keyboards points to a dodgy membrane.....however, in this case there might also be some issue with the infra-red emitters, so short of dragging a digital video camera down to my southern home is there a way of watching the infra-red emitters to see if they're working OK? I know CCD based video cameras can see infra-red...... Apologies in advance if this message appears garbled, I'm using an awfully off-topic Mac G4 with OSX 10.2 and I'm not used to its settings yet :) The machine was going to be dumped yesterday because 'it doesn't work'..........oh yes it does :D Cheers, a From kth at srv.net Thu May 19 16:09:20 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:09:20 -0600 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <428D0080.4050004@srv.net> Antonio Carlini wrote: >Jim Leonard wrote: > > > >>Which means they can run on any machine with a C compiler. So >>what's with all the paranoia? Just use whatever works as long >>as more than one major platform can extract it. >> >> > >What's C? Will that be less dead in 100 years than Algol is today? > > > What's CP/M? Will that be less dead in 100 years than Algol is today? >I know Algol's not completely dead - but it's certainly declining ... >How long before C is no longer available everywhere? How long before >your source no longer compiles without significant effort? > > So we should store the images using a sub-atomic scan of the disks, so that it can be reproduced back to an identical copy. Did people 500 years ago archive information using easily recognizable pictographs because people 500 years from then (today) will have lost all capability to read? Do you believe future people will be that much stupider than people are today, and that all information about computers will have been totally lost? If they lose and then rediscover computers, then they may have to go through the same process that we have had to go through to read Egyption writings. Or, they may think it is just too primitive to care about. >I have no problems with including a ready made unarchiver, but you >also must include a textual specification of the archive format. > >After another fifty years have passed and the state of the art has >advanced sufficiently, you can upgrade the archive to include a >povably correct specification :-) > > Make the archive useful to us, now. Let people 500 years from now figure it out for themselves. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 16:12:48 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:12:48 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> On a separate post I mentioned cross support/cross linking. It was my clumsy way of saying indexing. I would be nice if people pitched in and just did it. I may make a list of all of the chips listed in the individual PDF's that Al has posted for the westerndigital datasheets. If Al then posts this index with the PDF's (or creates an index folder) so the googlebot can scan it then a google search would point you where to get it. Simple with the task easily shared amoung many people. -- That would be a wonderful thing. I have a HUGE backlog of scanned databook material, and just finished picking up almost 40 book boxes of 70's -> 90's data books from a third large collection. The first was from the databook collection of Haltek Electronics (RIP), the second from a private collection that was given to us with the promise that it would be scanned, and now this addional one. (I've found a few interesting things in the last lot already.. A copy of the Fairchild '69 data book, a book by Gnostic Concepts on early 70's memory technology, and two of the classic error correcting codes books) There is no way I'm going to have time to OCR or index this. A simple text file per PDF with part number and page number would be wonderful. This is also the sort of data that Google seems to index REALLY well. Watching the hits on bitsavers, almost everyone finds the archive by stumbling upon the 'whatsnew.txt' or 'Index.txt' files. I'd be interested in suggestions for what books should be higher on the post-processing queue too. I probably have 50 databooks scanned but not PDFed right now. I've been concentrating mostly on getting the classic early stuff done first (2nd Edition TI TTL Data Book, etc.) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 16:18:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:18:50 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <428D02BA.7070209@bitsavers.org> There's plenty of file system meta-data out there to confound this process. Blindly archiving and un-archiving will destroy data that's not inside the file. There's a lot to be said for archiving images of entire filesystems. What, timestamps aren't important? Creation dates as well as last-modified dates? Archive bits? At least 'tar' preserves Unix's groups and permissions to a reasonable degree. -- There is also 'hidden' but valuable data you may not know about. I recovered the sources to some stand-alone machine utilities off the end of a 9 track data set on a tape that had been reused. It's also been mentioned that DEC 'distributed' unsupported code on distribution discs where the unsupported code was 'deleted' (marked as deleted in the directory) -- Another problem with bits in the wild is you have no idea if they've been patched or corrupted in some way before you get them. This is why it's necessary to read as many copies of the same program that you can find, even if the program has already been 'archived'. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 16:30:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:30:18 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <428D056A.404@bitsavers.org> > Just out of curiosity, is this program something you could use Al? It isn't something I currently need. It would have been handy when I was recoving some data a few years ago. There are a lot of VMS data sets kicking around on tape, but no inexpensive reliable recovery solutions in non-VMS environments. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 16:32:26 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:32:26 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <428D05EA.2010401@bitsavers.org> > It works surprisingly well but it still misses a lot. If you want your ear talked off, ask someone trained in library science what is wrong with Google searches. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 19 16:32:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:32:23 -0400 Subject: zip References: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <428D0080.4050004@srv.net> Message-ID: <17037.1511.799258.276249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> So we should store the images using a sub-atomic scan of the Kevin> disks, so that it can be reproduced back to an identical copy. Kevin> Did people 500 years ago archive information using easily Kevin> recognizable pictographs because people 500 years from then Kevin> (today) will have lost all capability to read? Kevin> Do you believe future people will be that much stupider than Kevin> people are today, and that all information about computers Kevin> will have been totally lost? Kevin> If they lose and then rediscover computers, then they may have Kevin> to go through the same process that we have had to go through Kevin> to read Egyption writings. Kevin> Or, they may think it is just too primitive to care about. Probably not, if they are at all like us. The question is: do you want to assume a continuous record and knowledge, or do you not want to assume that? Examples (from language studies) of the former: Greek, Hebrew -- and of the latter: Sumerian, Etruscan, Easter Island writing. Egyptian was read given knowledge of Greek, it was not deciphered on its own. Sometimes you can decipher things from internal data, if you are lucky to have enough material and enough hints pointing to other stuff. The decipherment of Linear B was an example (when it was done it turned out to be Greek, but that wasn't the starting assumption). Then again, sometimes you're not that lucky, which is why the Easter Island writing remains undeciphered to this day -- and may well remain so forever. You can rely on the skill and the luck of those who come after us -- which is what happened in the past (because it wasn't considered). Or we can do explicit planning to improve the odds. Again, I like the work of the Long Now foundation because it seems like a fascinating example of what you get when you really dig hard into these questions and assume as little as possible. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 16:32:46 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:32:46 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> From: "Al Kossow" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:12 PM > On a separate post I mentioned cross support/cross linking. It was my > clumsy way of saying indexing. It would be nice if people pitched in and > just did it. I may make a list of all of the chips listed in the > individual > PDF's that Al has posted for the westerndigital datasheets. If Al then > posts this index with the PDF's (or creates an index folder) so the > googlebot can scan it then a google search would point you where to get > it. > > Simple with the task easily shared amoung many people. > > -- > > That would be a wonderful thing. I have a HUGE backlog of scanned databook > material, and just finished picking up almost 40 book boxes > of 70's -> 90's data books from a third large collection. > > The first was from the databook collection of Haltek Electronics (RIP), > the second from a private collection that was given to us with the promise > that it would be scanned, and now this addional one. > > (I've found a few interesting things in the last lot already.. A copy > of the Fairchild '69 data book, a book by Gnostic Concepts on early > 70's memory technology, and two of the classic error correcting codes > books) > > There is no way I'm going to have time to OCR or index this. A simple > text file per PDF with part number and page number would be wonderful. > This is also the sort of data that Google seems to index REALLY well. > Watching the hits on bitsavers, almost everyone finds the archive by > stumbling upon the 'whatsnew.txt' or 'Index.txt' files. > > I'd be interested in suggestions for what books should be higher on the > post-processing queue too. I probably have 50 databooks scanned but not > PDFed right now. I've been concentrating mostly on getting the classic > early stuff done first (2nd Edition TI TTL Data Book, etc.) One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed page numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. As I said when someone downloads a copy to look for something when there is no index, just do it and send it back to Al. By sharing the load no one has to "do it all right now by yourself". I highly recommend a file that could be concatenated into a "master index" so it should have a PDF filename plus page numbers. Each index should be named the same as the PDF with a different extension and the field widths should be standardized. Al can decide if it should be text only, html, excel, etc. If there is a vote I vote text only either comma delimited (with quotes when needed) or fixed width fields that would be easier to read. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 16:27:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:27:53 +0000 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 22:04 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Recently I've picked up the bits of the infra-red Apricot keyboard that > Jules investigated at my place and left in bits all over one of my > sofas :) Hey, the task was merely to see how it came apart - you were on yer own after that point! ;) > I know CCD based video cameras can see infra-red...... Hmm, you got me curious there... had a poke around via google; some digital cameras seem perfectly capable of it, but you need an IR filter over the lens (presumably you need this for a camcorder too) I'd be surprised if the IR was the problem though; it's obviously working in some fashion to be letting some keys through. Seems more likely that the membrane's borked (I suppose you could make a note of what keys don't work, then check for continuity through the membrane when those keys are pressed...) > Apologies in advance if this message appears garbled, I'm using an > awfully off-topic Mac G4 with OSX 10.2 and I'm not used to its settings > yet :) Did you get the quick one? Did you bring that HP rack home? ;) seeya J. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 19 16:20:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:20:46 -0400 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <20050519125511.A28237@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <"from chenmel"@earthlink.net> <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050516233354.3d01bf4d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <428A2A69.4020705@oldskool.org> <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050519172046.0096c4d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:55 PM 5/19/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:12:35PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license plate, I > >What state is that? I don't know where Scott is but Florida only requires the rear license plate. Virginia requires front and rear. IIRC Georgia, Vermont, Texas and Kalifornia all require front and rear. > >Is there a list of states where I could do something like this >legally? >-- >Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org >Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 19 16:26:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:26:49 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? In-Reply-To: <0IGR00N3U2C44I27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050519172649.00981b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:36 PM 5/19/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>>From: "Joe R." >>> >>>At 05:17 PM 5/18/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>>Hi >>>> There is a good chance it is an interface part. >>>>Remember the 8008 bus is not TTL. >>> >>> ???? Ok then what is it? The first page in my Intel 8008 manual says >>>"TTL Compatible (Input, Output and Clocks)". Or am I missing something? >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >> >>Hi Joe >> My bad. The spec sheet shows that it will work with TTL. >>The inputs can go to VDD but don't need to. >>Dwight >> > >My Databooks and drawings from when I was designing with the beastie >says with +5 Vcc and -9Vdd all IO will be TTL compatable. > >FYI back in that time frame Signetics, Intel and Fairchild had a >DTL/TTL product in the 3xxx class numbering. For example: > > 3205 similar to 74138 may be differnt pinout > 3009 similar to 7432 > 9602 onshot similar to 74123 however the 9602 was truly a better part. > 3404 8bit wide latch maybe similar to 74100 or 74373 Correct but I still haven't found any Fairchild 36xx part numbers so I'm still not sure what these two parts are. Fairchild did build some memory, the ram was PN 3530 (I THINK!). > > 1101 256x1 Pmos (two voltages) and really slow (1.5us parts were the > fast ones) > >There were others but those appear on my drawing and those of the >MCS-8. Are you sure you're not thinking of the Sim-8? That's what's shown in the 8008 manual. If you have other drawings I'd like to get a copy. Joe > >The greatest part of that era, 2102 1kx1 1us (initial pricing $16 ea). > >Allison > > From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 16:38:30 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:38:30 -0500 Subject: zip References: <000901c55c9a$d85204e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <428D0080.4050004@srv.net> Message-ID: <001901c55cbb$1cfd4fd0$243dd7d1@randy> From: "Kevin Handy" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:09 PM > Do you believe future people will be that much stupider than people > are today, and that all information about computers will have been > totally lost? Have you seen the direction of the educational system? Enough said when a college graduate today can't light a light bulb give a battery, wire, and bulb. ;-) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 16:42:48 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:42:48 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <428D0858.1000600@bitsavers.org> > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed > page numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. When I started building bitsavers, I didn't have an easy way to put the page numbers on each page in the format they were in the original. Once Eric had tumble working, I started bookmarking every page with the 'real' page number with the intent of fixing the PDF page to match. > Al can decide if it should be text only, html, excel, etc. ASCII space separated fields Actually, I wasn't totally out of computing since January... I built a 400+GB music archive at the radio station that I do a weekly show at, and built the master indexes as text files. They are post-processed into SQL form, but the original data is all easily readable and editable. It is really, really easy to manipluate the data later if you do this. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu May 19 16:46:57 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:46:57 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 16:32:46 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed page > numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. Some time ago, I worked on some TeX skeleton (generated with script's aid) to produce a PDF file with nice bookmarks and all the like. However, I came to the conclusion that this isn't a real solution. I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu May 19 16:49:02 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:49:02 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <428D0858.1000600@bitsavers.org> References: <428D0858.1000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050519214901.GR2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 14:42:48 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed > > page numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. > > When I started building bitsavers, I didn't have an easy way to put the > page numbers on each page in the format they were in the original. Once > Eric had tumble working, I started bookmarking every page with the > 'real' page number with the intent of fixing the PDF page to match. Even that is a bit clumpsy:-) Compared to tumble, I really like my scripted approach which can produce "nicer" bookmarks. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 16:58:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:58:01 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0858.1000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <004801c55cbd$d6d19180$243dd7d1@randy> From: "Al Kossow" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:42 PM > > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed > > page numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. > > When I started building bitsavers, I didn't have an easy way to put the > page numbers on each page in the format they were in the original. Once > Eric had tumble working, I started bookmarking every page with the 'real' > page number with the intent of fixing the PDF page to match. > > > Al can decide if it should be text only, html, excel, etc. > > ASCII space separated fields > > Actually, I wasn't totally out of computing since January... > I built a 400+GB music archive at the radio station that I > do a weekly show at, and built the master indexes as text > files. They are post-processed into SQL form, but the original > data is all easily readable and editable. > > It is really, really easy to manipluate the data later if you > do this. How about this: File name[24 characters] Index key [24 character part number] Printed page number [8 characters] Optional PDF page number if different [8 characters] You may want to exclude the first field since it should match the file name of index/PDF file. The file should have a header line (I like a header line, a line of dashes, and an extra blank line). I picked multiples of 8 for tabbing and it fits within 80 col. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu May 19 17:04:34 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:04:34 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser Message-ID: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Jay, this is the one I used: Location Content Op-code comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay 001010 007777 delay 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until r1=0 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) it's not elegant, but you do get to see the lamps light, you can change the speed by altering the "delay" value. It doesn't work to well, as the data display will show the load of r1 as well. Yo should be able to alter it to put the lght chaser into the console display register (you'll have to re-calculate the value of the final branch - it will need an extra two memory loactions, one for the mov display register instruction, and one for the location of the register). I haven't got this to work on my 11/45, as I get a memory address error when I try to write to the display register, though I'm told I should be able to write to it - I think there is a processor fault lurking in there somewhere, or possibly a fault in the memory management module, though this is less likely, as I can read and write to the DL11W serial port. Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From gordon at gjcp.net Thu May 19 17:02:59 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:02:59 +0100 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <428D0D13.9040002@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 22:04 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > >>Hi folks, >> >>Recently I've picked up the bits of the infra-red Apricot keyboard that >>Jules investigated at my place and left in bits all over one of my >>sofas :) > > > Hey, the task was merely to see how it came apart - you were on yer own > after that point! ;) > > >>I know CCD based video cameras can see infra-red...... > > > Hmm, you got me curious there... had a poke around via google; some > digital cameras seem perfectly capable of it, but you need an IR filter > over the lens (presumably you need this for a camcorder too) Not really - if you use a camcorder with an IR remote, and you stand in shot with it, you can clearly see the LED winking away. I've removed the IR filter from my Philips PWC680K webcam before, and got some surprising results - one pair of black jeans I have shows up as white! You can use a bit of completely black film from the end of a roll of negatives as a very effective IR pass filter. It will block out the visible light but you'll see near IR. The first time I did this I wasn't entirely sure it was working, until I started to look closely at it... Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 17:14:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:14:50 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <428D0FDA.3000604@bitsavers.org> File name[24 characters] Index key [24 character part number] Printed page number [8 characters] Optional PDF page number if different [8 characters] I picked multiples of 8 for tabbing and it fits within 80 col. -- The only thing I'd suggest is if you want to include the file name, put it at the end, since filenames are pushing past 32 characters now as I put more descriptive file names up. This obviously generalizes to: 23 characters is probably adequate for probably should be a URL, but that runs into problems with mirrors and all sorts of messy stuff when files move around in the heirarchy (sometimes groups of files get pushed down into new directories as more info on some topic shows up) From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 19 17:14:42 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:14:42 -0500 Subject: Woohoo! In-Reply-To: <20050519125511.A28237@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <200505162155.j4GLt9RM087682@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050518221235.454c300e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050519125511.A28237@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <200505191714.42731.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:55, Jim Leonard wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 10:12:35PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Actually, since in this state we only have a rear license plate, I > > What state is that? Indiana. > Is there a list of states where I could do something like this > legally? Any state that supplies you with only one license plate when you get your car registered... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 17:13:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:13:48 +0000 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116540828.29178.81.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 21:27 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I know CCD based video cameras can see infra-red...... > > Hmm, you got me curious there... had a poke around via google; some > digital cameras seem perfectly capable of it, but you need an IR filter > over the lens (presumably you need this for a camcorder too) Further to that, it works nicely with my Canon G5 with a minimum of fuss.... No need to even use a filter; just stick the camera on auto mode and the IR led on a remote control is easily visible on the camera's LCD. So, basically, just go try it... I did find a site that mentions using a bit of offcut from a conventional camera negative as a useful filter to pass IR and cut everything else. I've got a suitable bit, so I might give that a try just for the sake of seeing what IR shots I can get... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 17:20:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:20:53 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 16:32:46 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed page > > numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. > > Some time ago, I worked on some TeX skeleton (generated with script's > aid) to produce a PDF file with nice bookmarks and all the like. > However, I came to the conclusion that this isn't a real solution. > > I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up > cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into > that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing > PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF > (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF file :-) It might be good for text-based documents (offering text searching and the like), but is it necessarily the right thing for collections of page scans? cheers J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 19 17:32:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <428D05EA.2010401@bitsavers.org> References: <428D05EA.2010401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050519153037.V53212@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > It works surprisingly well but it still misses a lot. > If you want your ear talked off, ask someone trained in library science > what is wrong with Google searches. A simple citation of Blair/Maron will show much of what is wrong, even though it is pre-WWW. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (MLIS,PhD/ABD) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 19 17:39:15 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:39:15 +0100 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <1116538073.29178.67.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Hey, the task was merely to see how it came apart - you were on yer own > after that point! ;) > Good job I got it back together in one piece then! It's all horribly clean underneath the screws and plastic.... > digital cameras seem perfectly capable of it, but you need an IR filter > over the lens (presumably you need this for a camcorder too) > Nope, ours is a Sony MiniDV or something and you can point it at a bog standard remote control and watch the flashes...blinkenlights...mmmm :) > likely that the membrane's borked (I suppose you could make a note of > what keys don't work, then check for continuity through the membrane > when those keys are pressed...) > That's the next step, though not the NEXTStep. Did you see what I did there? I'll do some testing next week. > Did you get the quick one? Did you bring that HP rack home? ;) > Yup and nope. I'm still without the means to strap a 42U rack to the top of my car! cheers, A From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 17:48:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:48:18 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org><001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy><20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001601c55cc4$dd80fa50$a03dd7d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:20 PM > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> On Thu, 2005-05-19 16:32:46 -0500, Randy McLaughlin >> wrote: >> > One extra caveat would be when listing page numbers both the printed >> > page >> > numbers and the PDF's declared page numbers should be included. >> >> Some time ago, I worked on some TeX skeleton (generated with script's >> aid) to produce a PDF file with nice bookmarks and all the like. >> However, I came to the conclusion that this isn't a real solution. >> >> I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up >> cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into >> that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing >> PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF >> (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) > > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr > for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF > file :-) > > It might be good for text-based documents (offering text searching and > the like), but is it necessarily the right thing for collections of page > scans? > > cheers > > J. PDF is terrible way to package the documents. It's just better than any other practical method ;-) So many talk about ASCII being the only "right way", as Al can attest to time and accuracy makes image oriented PDF's the way to go. Finding errors in OCR'ed files is extremely time consuming. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 19 17:52:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:52:47 -0400 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <0IGR00KETE6FPFC7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? > From: "Joe R." > Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:26:49 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>My Databooks and drawings from when I was designing with the beastie >>says with +5 Vcc and -9Vdd all IO will be TTL compatable. >> >>FYI back in that time frame Signetics, Intel and Fairchild had a >>DTL/TTL product in the 3xxx class numbering. For example: >> >> 3205 similar to 74138 may be differnt pinout >> 3009 similar to 7432 >> 9602 onshot similar to 74123 however the 9602 was truly a better part. >> 3404 8bit wide latch maybe similar to 74100 or 74373 > > Correct but I still haven't found any Fairchild 36xx part numbers so I'm >still not sure what these two parts are. Fairchild did build some memory, >the ram was PN 3530 (I THINK!). > > >> >> 1101 256x1 Pmos (two voltages) and really slow (1.5us parts were the >> fast ones) >> >>There were others but those appear on my drawing and those of the >>MCS-8. > > Are you sure you're not thinking of the Sim-8? That's what's shown in >the 8008 manual. If you have other drawings I'd like to get a copy. > The MCS-8 manual has the SIM-8 in it. The other two designs are mine and on B sized blue line (they are ca1973ish). They used more contemporary 7400 stuff save for the 3205 (intel 8205 in 1980s or better 74LS138 which all the same thing.). Nothing to wild, 2102 ram instead of 1101 and the IO was a series of ports that drove a Burroughs Panaplex 32 char display and a numeris and function keyboard. The application was serial frame time encoding/decoding for 8Track commercial tape systems. Copying the drawing would be a pita being B sized and very little per page (near 20 pages of drawings). I keep wanting to build a 8008 system as I have a chip using current (ca 1980s) parts for laughs. The problem is an 8048 can blow it's doors off. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 18:02:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:02:51 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> >> Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for >> jobs like these? PDF is terrible way to package the documents. >It's just better than any other practical method ;-) >So many talk about ASCII being the only "right way", as Al can attest to >time and accuracy makes image oriented PDF's the way to go. I'm pragmatic. I have hundreds of thousands (probably millions now..) of pages of paper. I wanted easy access to all of it. Eric also had a lot of stuff that I didn't have. The machines I use are Macs and Linux boxes. There are PDF viewers for both of those platforms that had page indexing. The level of PDF used is the minimum to support wrapping collections of scans together with very simple metadata (the page number). That's all of PDF that I use. The overhead is minimal, it can be read across most computers currently in use, and if it's working with the right sort of browsers will only transfer the page being viewed instead of the whole document. If something different comes around, the PDF spec is public, and by using such a small subset it should be simple to translate. I've never found much use for the fancier scripting stuff in tumble. It takes long enough to just do the minimal post-processing of the scans that I do now to think about writing a script for each document to do any sort of fancier indexing. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 19 18:35:00 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (zmerch at 30below.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I'm in Dayton - where's everyone else? ;-) Message-ID: <64319.66.193.86.234.1116545700.squirrel@www.30below.com> I'm in dayton(ish) at the Holiday Inn in Fairborn just off I-675. I can't easily check my main email account, as I only have webmail here and I get nearly 500 msgs per day on that account, for which I have a bajillion Eudora filters at work at home, but not the laptop. I can be reached at my secondary account (z at 30below dot com) or also at my ham radio account (which I rarely use, but I'll check a couple times a day over the weekend) at ab8kk at 30below dot com. I have OnStar in my truck if my cellphones outta range, but of course, that'll only work whilst I'm in the truck.. ;-) If you see a dark red Chevy Avalanche with a Michigan National Guard Plate (with an Apple initialism embedded in it, no less!) dollars to donuts it's mine. It'll be locked, but you can leave a note on the windshield... ;-) My cell number is AC 906 rest 440 6909, I should have it on all evening and tomorrow -- my plan doesn't cover OH, so keep 'er short... ;-) [[ The *best* plan I can get offers MI and WI; that's it. :-( ]] Is the plan still Friday nite around 5:30 or 6:00 pm? M$ MapPoint doesn't have a "Porky's" in a 6 mile radius of Hara, but there is a restaurant called "The Rib Spot." Is that it? I'm gonna be at the hamfest prolly all day tomorrow, cell phone on... If we're gonna get together, email/call me, eh? See ya laterz (Hopefully!), "Merch" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 18:37:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:37:18 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1116545838.29178.112.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 16:02 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > >> jobs like these? PDF is terrible way to package the documents. > > >It's just better than any other practical method ;-) > > >So many talk about ASCII being the only "right way", as Al can attest to > >time and accuracy makes image oriented PDF's the way to go. > > I'm pragmatic. I have hundreds of thousands (probably millions now..) of > pages of paper. I wanted easy access to all of it. Eric also had a lot of > stuff that I didn't have. The machines I use are Macs and Linux boxes. > There are PDF viewers for both of those platforms that had page indexing. Sure... I'm not sure what it is about PDF that bugs me (I'm not that much of a fan of it even for textual stuff TBH!). In the case of doc scans it just feels a bit odd downloading a bunch of images wrapped in a proprietary format I suppose, when there are far nicer tools for dealing with images than there are PDF viewers for handling PDF content (and because the PDF files are just full of images, there's no other metadata). I tend to 'explode' any PDF files of scans (from whatever source) here once downloaded into their own directory; I just find it easier to manipulate via whatever image tool is most suitable for whatever I'm doing at the time, rather than being stuck with a PDF viewer. I suppose if I wanted to add metadata to that, I'd include an ASCII text file in the directory full of images with the relevant info in (I've done that with ROM and Disk images many a time; not needed to do it with Doc scans yet*) * For single page magazine ad scans I've tended to enlarge the image canvas a little at the top or bottom with a blank area and included there details about what magazine it was from, date etc. - there are likely much better ways (and that obviously doesn't scale to thousands of docs!) but it's been better than nothing up until now. Maybe I'm atypical in usage :-) I'll rarely want to download scans and *not* keep a copy on local storage just in case, so I've never used the "view a PDF file in a web browser" side of things. > If something different comes around, the PDF spec is public, and by using > such a small subset it should be simple to translate. Yep true... plenty of tools already exist to pull PDF files apart. Well, you'll be converting all your bitsavers content to futurekeep format soon :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 18:42:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:42:06 +0000 Subject: I'm in Dayton - where's everyone else? ;-) In-Reply-To: <64319.66.193.86.234.1116545700.squirrel@www.30below.com> References: <64319.66.193.86.234.1116545700.squirrel@www.30below.com> Message-ID: <1116546126.29162.114.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 19:35 -0400, zmerch at 30below.com wrote: > I'm in dayton(ish) at the Holiday Inn in Fairborn just off I-675. > > I can't easily check my main email account, as I only have webmail here > and I get nearly 500 msgs per day on that account, for which > I have a bajillion Eudora filters at work at home, but not the laptop. Use your laptop to telnet into your home machine and read your mail from there :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 17:58:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:58:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050518210211.009d55e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 18, 5 09:02:11 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:55 AM 5/19/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit > >> boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and > >> phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. > > > >Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. > > > > It was also a option in one of the terminals but I forget which one. I > have a loose board of LED/Phototransistors that I found was used to > retrofit Touchscreen capability into one of the terminals. I once saw an HP monitor with a pair of HP-HIL connectors on the back... Intrigued, I waited for the 'owner' (actually user) to leave, and then cautiously pulled the case. It turned out it could take the same touchscreen option as the HP150-II, and that these were the connectors for that. No, I can't remember model numbers, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:04:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:04:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428BFDC0.8030604@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 18, 5 09:45:20 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > You raise a good point. I'll have to add support to my tar for file > > sizes over 8G. > > But then it won't be tar. You'll be creating files that can only be extracted > with your version. > > The solution is an archive format that handles nearly ludicrous sizes, such as Is this really an issue for archiving boot disks and their metadata? tar will hand 8 gigabyte archives (IIRC). A boot disk is around 1 megabyte. That's a hack of a lot of extra space for metadata :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:10:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:10:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505182245.44690.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 18, 5 10:45:44 pm Message-ID: > Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, open > formats are more important than making sure that everyone's grandma can > figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that the person has a > grasp of being able to learn new things, and some idea of logic are IMO > reasonable assumptions. You alos need to consider what is the most likely sort of person to want to access this archive. It's an archive of boot disks, PROMs, etc for what are _now_ somewhat obscure computers, and which will presumably be even more obscure in the future. The sort of person to need that sort of data is likely to have quite a bit of computer knowledge already, and is not going to have problesm with tracking down a copy of gnu tar or similar.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:17:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:17:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519122952.B26378@homer.berkhirt.com> from "Jim Leonard" at May 19, 5 12:29:52 pm Message-ID: > My point at the beginning of the thread was that I don't think > archive programs should be damned simply because they run on a > certain platform. That's extremely narrow thinking. (I'm not > accusing you of that at all, just commenting on the thread responses > in general.) I would certainly claim an 'archive program' should be damned if it isn't 'open' -- that is to say if there is not an adequate sprcification of the archive format to allow an extractor to be written for any platform (subject to limitations on disk space, memory, etc). However popular a machine is now, there will come a time when there are none still running (and I suspect this will be true of modern PCs long before it's true of things like PDP11s, but I digress). I feel it's very unlikely that our archive of boot disks will survive and no copies of a now-common archive program specification will remain, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:00:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:00:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050518214937.009d8a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 18, 5 09:49:37 pm Message-ID: > >IIRC the 9144 is a 16 track unit, the 9145 is similar but 32 track. > > Correct. FWIW The 9145 can read but not write 9144 tapes. I've given up > on the 9145s, I can never find tapes for them. FWIW2 the older HP 9142 > tape drive could format it's own tapes. I think the 9142 uses one of the standard QIC formats, possible QIC24. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:22:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:22:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <00b901c55c9d$7a6aaf00$3592d6d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 19, 5 01:06:21 pm Message-ID: > In this case best means a format understood by the majority. Jsut becasue something is popular doesn't mean it's well understood. I'll bet most people who use Winzip or whatever haven't a clue as to what a zip file actually consists of. > > In the future ZIP formats will be better understood than any other current > format for the simple reason there are more zip files to examine than any > other. But I'll bet now that more people understand the internals of linux than understand the internals of Windows, because the former is 'open' and documented, the latter isn't. Even though there are many more Windows machines than linux machines :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 18:32:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at May 19, 5 10:04:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > Recently I've picked up the bits of the infra-red Apricot keyboard that > Jules investigated at my place and left in bits all over one of my > sofas :) > > It's a membrane activated by springs and quite a lot of the keys don't > register with the host machine which in wired keyboards points to a > dodgy membrane.....however, in this case there might also be some issue > with the infra-red emitters, so short of dragging a digital video Surely there's one encoder and IR transmitter for the entire keyboard (there may be several IR LEDs, but normally they're wired in series and send the same information). In which case if _any_ keys work, then it's very unlikely the problem is with the IR transmitter. > camera down to my southern home is there a way of watching the > infra-red emitters to see if they're working OK? There's a little circuit in an old issue of the Maplin Magazine for an IR remote control tester. I've found it very useful for testing IR keyboards, detecing the beam in a laser printer, etc. Such circuits have also appeared in Television magazine over the years. There used to be (and probably still are) cards available -- about credit card sized -- coated with some special phosphor material. You 'charge' them by exposing them to normal light, and then they glow if hit with an IR beam. You can recharge them many times, I am not sure what the lifetime is. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 18:51:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:51:25 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116545838.29178.112.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> <1116545838.29178.112.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116546685.29162.116.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:37 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 16:02 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I'm pragmatic. I have hundreds of thousands (probably millions now..) of > > pages of paper. I wanted easy access to all of it. Eric also had a lot of > > stuff that I didn't have. The machines I use are Macs and Linux boxes. > > There are PDF viewers for both of those platforms that had page indexing. > > Sure... I'm not sure what it is about PDF that bugs me (I'm not that > much of a fan of it even for textual stuff TBH!). Standard disclaimer applies that bitsavers is no less great for that statement, by the way :-) cheers J. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 18:55:10 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:55:10 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <428D275E.9040709@bitsavers.org> A simple citation of Blair/Maron will show much of what is wrong, even though it is pre-WWW. Blair/Maron:1985 D. C Blair and M. E. Maron: "An evaluation of retrieval effectiveness for a full-text document retrieval system", Communications of the ACM, 28, pp. 280--299, 1985 I assume. -- http://pi0959.kub.nl/Paai/Onderw/V-I/Content/history.html is an interesting little overview (found with a Google search, of course :-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 19 18:45:11 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200505200002.UAA06389@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] But first, I'd need to understand PDF (whose specification >> actually is about 8cm thick...) 1236 pages, according to GhostScript run on the PDF for the 1.6 spec. > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > jobs like these? Yes, if it needed further implying. > (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr for Linux eats > close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF file :-) So don't use Adobe's reader. Ghostscript generally does a pretty good job in my experience. > It might be good for text-based documents (offering text searching > and the like), ...though still not as good as a plain text file... > but is it necessarily the right thing for collections of page scans? "The" right hing? I dunno, but I do know I'd sure rather have a directory containing TIFF files than a PDF containing the same TIFF files. Or a tar of them, or almost anything else non-proprietary - the less information I have to understand to figure out how to pull it apart, the better, on which score PDF (as pointed out above) fails rather dismally. (It may be an open format in that the doc is unrestricted - though I'm not sure of even that much - but for an open format, its doc is not easy to find. Google finds http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/adobepdf.html, which is full of puffery and notably short on links to fetch the spec itself from; I eventually managed to scare it up - and it's a PDF. "Here! If you can figure this file out, it will tell you how to figure it out!" As if that weren't enough, Adobe prohibits saving a copy of it(!!); the second page includes [ten-finger copy] "No part of this publication (whether in hardcopy or electronic form) may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form, or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of Adobe Systems Incorporated.".) Writing one's own tar unpacker is a contemplatable exercise - a fairly easy one, even, for a reasonably experienced programmer. Writing a PDF groveler...is not. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 19 19:02:34 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <001601c55cc4$dd80fa50$a03dd7d1@randy> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org><001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy><20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <001601c55cc4$dd80fa50$a03dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <200505200004.UAA06402@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > PDF is terrible way to package the documents. It's just better than > any other practical method ;-) > So many talk about ASCII being the only "right way", as Al can attest > to time and accuracy makes image oriented PDF's the way to go. > Finding errors in OCR'ed files is extremely time consuming. Those (OCRed plain text and PDF files) are not the only options. As I remarked a minute ago, I'd far rather have a tar (or a zip, or a directory on an FTP server) containing TIFF files than a PDF containing the same TIFF files. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 19:04:55 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:04:55 +0000 Subject: From 1985 - HP 150 TouchScreen goes for >$400 ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116547495.29162.124.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:58 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At 12:55 AM 5/19/05 +0100, you wrote: > > >> I think I have the touchscreen frame from one of those, 4 circuit > > >> boards linked together in a box, with a lots of LEDs and > > >> phototransistors. Always been curious what it came out of. > > > > > >Quite possibly, that's how the touchscreen worked on the 150. > > > > > > > It was also a option in one of the terminals but I forget which one. I > > have a loose board of LED/Phototransistors that I found was used to > > retrofit Touchscreen capability into one of the terminals. > > I once saw an HP monitor with a pair of HP-HIL connectors on the back... > Intrigued, I waited for the 'owner' (actually user) to leave, and then > cautiously pulled the case. It turned out it could take the same > touchscreen option as the HP150-II, and that these were the connectors > for that. Hmm, we've got two or three HP terminals with the touchscreen option; Hans Pufal was over last weekend and pointed them out (we've got a big stack of HP terminals which I've had time to sort into piles by model number but never do anything else with). I'll have a look if I get a chance and see what the model number is for these (and what connectors they have). cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 19:32:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <200505200032.RAA23306@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've just got to say that I'm not sure why I didn't look in bitsavers for the data sheets. I think it was that at first, I wasn't sure if it was a Western Digital part or someone elses. I can only claim stupidity. Google ready indexing would have made the difference though. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 19:32:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DC100 tapes Message-ID: I have a couple HP DC100 tapes that I'm going to attempt a dump from. I'm told they were written on a 9845. I don't have a 9845 (still regret the one I missed years ago). Can these be read on a 9830B? What about an HP 85? Any info appreciated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 19 19:35:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting Epson memory card Message-ID: Has anyone ever seen one of these? http://www.siconic.com/computers/epson/ It's a credit card sized memory device made by Epson. Allegedly stored anywhere from 16 - 128K per card. Used some sort of backup battery for the memory. I don't believe this was flash. Apparently Epson OEM'd them to various companies for use in various devices, presumably including laptops. Can anyone identify exactly what this card is and what might be able to read from it? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu May 19 19:40:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:40:32 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> <200505181835.01249.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <428D3200.2BF43D3C@msm.umr.edu> wasn't the guy's name Lou something? I sold a few systems back in the early 80's that he had wants out for at the time thru him. I love the web page, and wish I had the Nova and tape drive in the one lab photo. Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Wednesday 18 May 2005 17:31, William Maddox wrote: > > --- shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > In the 60's and 70's, there was an outfit called > > > "American Used Computer" > > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 19 19:45:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting Epson memory card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Has anyone ever seen one of these? > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/epson/ > > It's a credit card sized memory device made by Epson. > > Allegedly stored anywhere from 16 - 128K per card. Used some sort of > backup battery for the memory. I don't believe this was flash. > Apparently Epson OEM'd them to various companies for use in various > devices, presumably including laptops. Roland synths use these (some of them anyway). Did I not sent a reader to you at one point? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 19:46:19 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) Message-ID: <200505200046.RAA23312@clulw009.amd.com> ---snip--- > >However popular a machine is now, there will come a time when there are >none still running (and I suspect this will be true of modern PCs long >before it's true of things like PDP11s, but I digress). I feel it's very >unlikely that our archive of boot disks will survive and no copies of a >now-common archive program specification will remain, though. > >-tony > Hi Tony It is more that we can not predict what pieces of the puzzle will be missing. If I'd have known when I was a kid that Mickey Mouse watches were going to have value, I'd have bought several. As you know, from personal correspondence, I'm working on a machine that wasn't all that uncommon in Europe. Some things for it just don't seem to exist ( programs and manuals ). They were out there but they are gone now. I can't predict what will be lost and what will survive. I can't predict why one obscure piece of information continues to be available despite its limited application while other bits of information the were more popular are gone. The Idea of an archive is to try to minimize the interdependencies. The archive should include the zip, rar and tar information. That doesn't mean that the archive should depend on them. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 19:49:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:49:50 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" Message-ID: <428D342E.6030504@bitsavers.org> > wasn't the guy's name Lou something? Sonny Monosson here's his obit http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2003/10/07/adolf_monosson_established_a_market_for_computer_leasing?mode=PF Lot of what is rare stuff in that pic (like the RF08 on his left..) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu May 19 19:52:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" ---snip--- > >Those (OCRed plain text and PDF files) are not the only options. > Hi Of course, I have a better option. I have some of the actual ASCII source text for a few of the manuals used in the Polymorphics systems. I lack pictures and diagrams but at least there are not OCR errors. I guess this isn't always available for everything :( Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 19 19:53:00 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <428D342E.6030504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Lot of what is rare stuff in that pic (like the RF08 on his left..) By the way, the original plac ethat picture was used was an old National Geographic. I recall the same page has a picture of one of the piles as ILLIAC 4 was being scrapped. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 19 19:53:12 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:53:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes Message-ID: <20050520005312.17383.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Surely there's one encoder and IR transmitter for the > entire keyboard (there may be several IR LEDs, but > normally they're wired in series and send the same > information). In which case if _any_ keys work, then > it's very unlikely the problem is with the IR transmitter. Not true. IR formats where the energy density per bit type differs can fail on specific codes due to the IR LED supply capacitor failing. E.g. in the Sony SIRC protocol a 1 bit is transmitted as 1.2ms of carrier and .6ms gap whereas a 0 bit is .6ms of carrier and .6ms gap. In this case any command that has a sequence of two or more 1s may fail where a code with only single 1s way work. Not very likely I'll admit but it can happen. The easy way to diagnose this is if it works with brand new cells but cells a couple of weeks old don't work well. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 19 20:00:12 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:00:12 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer Message-ID: <428D369C.6070708@bitsavers.org> "photo is scanned in from the October 1982 issue of National Geographic magazine" Unfortunately, the classiccmp links no longer match what Google thinks they should be. (Jay???) Here is what is in Google's cache: From: David Forbes <> To: Tom Jennings Subject: Re: Would you buy a used PDP-8 from this man? Date: 14 Jan 2004 13:37:17 -0700 Tom, This photo is scanned in from the October 1982 issue of National Geographic magazine, which I just found at the thrift store. It has an article about The Chip, and another about Silicon Valley. Humorous reading. The guy with the bowtie is Sonny Monosson of American Used Computer in Boston MA. I remember you saying that you used to go there now and then in your youth. I remember getting their ads in the late seventies, when I was using PDP-11s in high school and college. I would drool over the possibility of getting an obsolete 11 for home use, but the shipping was so expensive back then. I imagine the power bill would be something to behold also. All I remember about the Heathkit LSI-11 I used at Optical Sciences is that it was slower, instruction for instruction, than the Z-80 I also used. From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 21:16:07 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:16:07 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000601c55ce1$e5e7fc30$1690d6d1@randy> I created indexes for the five WesternDigital databook PDF's I downloaded and sent them to Al. In a week or so I'll try a google search and see if it shows up. I suggest anyone downloading PDF's that are not indexed spend just a few minutes and create an index, it will help the next person. I created a text file using the exact same file name as the PDF file (with txt instead of pdf, and it was really 5 files). I created a three line header and followed with one line per device with 24 characters for device name, 8 characters for printed page number, 8 characters for PDF page number. Where more than one device was mentioned for a page I entered separate lines with different device names and duplicated page numbers, I only entered the 1st page number not a range. If we all share the labor it shouldn't take long to deluge Al with index files ;-) It is possible that Al will not instantainiously post the index files so for now if anyone else sends Al an index file it might be handy to say so here so others will know they don't need to duplicate the work. Randy From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 19 21:23:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:23:07 -0400 Subject: Interesting Epson memory card Message-ID: <0IGR00AL6NWYJHB5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Interesting Epson memory card > From: William Donzelli > Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:45:59 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Has anyone ever seen one of these? >> >> http://www.siconic.com/computers/epson/ >> >> It's a credit card sized memory device made by Epson. >> >> Allegedly stored anywhere from 16 - 128K per card. Used some sort of >> backup battery for the memory. I don't believe this was flash. >> Apparently Epson OEM'd them to various companies for use in various >> devices, presumably including laptops. > >Roland synths use these (some of them anyway). > >Did I not sent a reader to you at one point? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Ok along the same line I have a KINGSTON KTT-4500/4 4MB card that may fit older laptops. I wonder if there is data to use it for a CP/M system (pinouts and the like). Allison From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 19 21:29:02 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:29:02 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> <000601c55ce1$e5e7fc30$1690d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <001201c55ce3$b34ebaa0$1690d6d1@randy> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:16 PM >I created indexes for the five WesternDigital databook PDF's I downloaded >and sent them to Al. > > In a week or so I'll try a google search and see if it shows up. > > I suggest anyone downloading PDF's that are not indexed spend just a few > minutes and create an index, it will help the next person. > > I created a text file using the exact same file name as the PDF file (with > txt instead of pdf, and it was really 5 files). I created a three line > header and followed with one line per device with 24 characters for device > name, 8 characters for printed page number, 8 characters for PDF page > number. > > Where more than one device was mentioned for a page I entered separate > lines with different device names and duplicated page numbers, I only > entered the 1st page number not a range. > > If we all share the labor it shouldn't take long to deluge Al with index > files ;-) > > It is possible that Al will not instantainiously post the index files so > for now if anyone else sends Al an index file it might be handy to say so > here so others will know they don't need to duplicate the work. > > > Randy After sending the index files to Al I realized what I forgot: More keywords. I should have included the following text in the files: WesternDigital Western Digital Datasheet Data Sheet That way if someone googles 'western digital wd1100 datasheet' it would show up higher on the list (more keyword hits). Randy From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 19 21:54:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:54:48 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> Dwight K. Elvey declared on Thursday 19 May 2005 07:52 pm: > >From: "der Mouse" > > ---snip--- > > >Those (OCRed plain text and PDF files) are not the only options. > > Hi > Of course, I have a better option. I have some of the actual > ASCII source text for a few of the manuals used in the > Polymorphics systems. I lack pictures and diagrams but > at least there are not OCR errors. > I guess this isn't always available for everything :( This gave me an idea... it'd be nifty if there was OCR software that would convert the scanned image into LaTeX. Barring that, PostScript would even be a decent alternative to PDF - it's fairly readable Forth, and any decent printer can accept it to produce a new hardcopy. I know you can convert PDF back to postscript (ie "Print" from a pdf viewer on a *NIX machine), but that's probably not the same. (Yes, I'm saying if a printer can't be made to accept postscript - either standard or via an option ROM, it isn't "decent".) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu May 19 21:59:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:59:34 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 May 2005 22:43:03 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > can handle tar files... > Which systems can't handle tar files?? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 19 22:06:25 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting Epson memory card In-Reply-To: <0IGR00AL6NWYJHB5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from Allison at "May 19, 5 10:23:07 pm" Message-ID: <200505200306.UAA16562@floodgap.com> > Ok along the same line I have a KINGSTON KTT-4500/4 4MB card that > may fit older laptops. Might be for Toshiba Satellite systems. I have a 16MB "credit card" RAM module in my Satellite T1950. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu May 19 22:07:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:07:40 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <200505180325.XAA18867@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505180325.XAA18867@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050519220740.79e5f065.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 May 2005 23:17:50 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > >> to certain computer technology. > > Ditto for making a processor from SSI/MSI chips (I've done this for > > a special-purpose programmable device, turning it into a processor > > would not have been hard), > > I know I can do that, because I have. Back in the late '70s, at the > University of Colorado, I took a computer hardware design course. It > was very hands-on, and the term project, if you will, was to construct > a small 4-bit computer from SSI/MSI TTL. (The most complex chips used > were an ALU - 74181, I think it was - and some static RAM.) Not much > memory space, 16 4-bit words, but fully functional within its design > limitations. > > > Mind you, these days most people can't even wire an RS232 cable and > > get it right.... > > Of course, it doesn't help that most equipment manufacturers can't > wire an RS232 connector and get it right (true almost regardless of > your definition of "right" in this context). > One of the things that REALLY doesn't help is that the RS232-C standard (by this I mean the 'current modern variant' in case there are any pedants present) is an expensive document that you have to pay the ANSI folks a BUNCH of money to even read. Not that it would particularly help most of the people who can't wire an RS232 cable, but WHY are standards like that still locked down and rationed out like trade secrets? -Scott From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 19 21:58:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200505200310.XAA08911@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Barring that, PostScript would even be a decent alternative to PDF - > it's fairly readable Forth, and any decent printer can accept it to > produce a new hardcopy. Based on my rather limited understanding, PDF more or less *is* PostScript - they're similar at a fairly high level - both stack languages based on approximately the same imaging model.... > (Yes, I'm saying if a printer can't be made to accept postscript - > either standard or via an option ROM, it isn't "decent".) Feh. I'd much rather have something like a SPARCprinter that just takes page bitmaps from the host. It's easy to generate bitmaps with something like GhostScript, but convincing a PostScript printer to just print a page bitmap is..a struggle. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu May 19 22:19:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:19:30 -0400 Subject: HP DC100 tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050519231930.009d0c80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:32 PM 5/19/05 -0700, you wrote: > >I have a couple HP DC100 tapes that I'm going to attempt a dump from. I'm >told they were written on a 9845. I don't have a 9845 (still regret the >one I missed years ago). Can these be read on a 9830B? What about an HP >85? No and no. The 9845 has a higher level of basic than the 85 or any of the other calculators. You'll have to find a 9845 with a working tape drive to read them. GOOD LUCK!!! I never bothered to rebuild any of the tapes drives in any of my 9845s. OTOH, it's doubtfull that your tapes are still readable anyway. The old HP tapes are crap! (Check the archives for the numerous discussions about the problems with them.) I had a CASE of brand new sealed ones and even those had gone bad. That's one reason that I never bothered to rebuild the 9845 tape drives. Joe From cctalk at randy482.com Fri May 20 00:20:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:20:28 -0500 Subject: Foam pads for capacative keyboards References: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000c01c55cfb$a6ba48a0$263dd7d1@randy> I just sent an email to Mil-Key Corp. since I heard they were a supplier of replacement foam pads for some capacative keyboards (keytronics). Does anyone else have any sources for replacements? Thanks, Randy www.s100-manuals.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri May 20 00:56:56 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:56:56 -0500 Subject: Free 8088 Zenith laptop In-Reply-To: <44070.127.0.0.1.1116467070.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <44070.127.0.0.1.1116467070.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <5a774066fe7671b8f605f6821eac8784@earthlink.net> If the laptop isn't claimed yet, how much is it for shipping to 60031? On May 18, 2005, at 8:44 PM, Erik Klein wrote: > > Absolutely free (you pay the shipping): > > I have a Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97. It looks a lot like a > SuperSport > but it isn't. . . see http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/zenith_l/ > for > a look at one in much better shape then this. > > Mine is yellowed and has a crack on the front left but it does work! > It > has an internal 3.5" floppy as well as a 20 MB HD. Given enough time > (it's SLOW) it will boot to the HD which has WordPerfect and DOS 5.0 > installed. > > The machine comes with a battery pack (dead) and a power brick as well > as > a spare 3.5" drive. > > All yours for absolutely nothing if you come pick it up in San Jose or > for > the cost of shipping if you want it anywhere else. > > It's gone by the end of the weekend, one way or the other. . . > > -- > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forum > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 20 02:06:38 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:06:38 -0700 Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? References: <3.0.6.32.20050519172649.00981b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <428D8C7F.DD29491B@cs.ubc.ca> "Joe R." wrote: > > Correct but I still haven't found any Fairchild 36xx part numbers so I'm > still not sure what these two parts are. Fairchild did build some memory, > the ram was PN 3530 (I THINK!). Well, one can resort to procedures like using an ohmmeter to measure the characteristics of each pin of the IC relative to the power supply pins (presuming you're reasonably sure which are the power supply pins), figuring out the characteristics (readings) which distinguish between input and output pins, drawing a pinout of inputs vs. outputs and see if the result matches the known 1101 pinout. Somewhat problematic because of the non-linear characteristics of the semiconductor junctions being measured (different ohmmeters have different responses on different ranges to semi junctions), but sometimes you can derive enough information to figure (something) out. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 02:08:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:08:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Graham" at May 19, 5 10:04:49 pm Message-ID: <49666.82.152.112.73.1116572937.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Tony wrote: > Surely there's one encoder and IR transmitter for the entire keyboard > (there may be several IR LEDs, but normally they're wired in series and > send the same information). In which case if _any_ keys work, then it's > very unlikely the problem is with the IR transmitter. True, I'm just trying to eliminate all possibilities because the mechanical side of things looks OK - no obvious cracks or breaks etc. > card sized -- coated with some special phosphor material. You 'charge' > them by exposing them to normal light, and then they glow if hit with an > IR beam. You can recharge them many times, I am not sure what the > lifetime is. Those would be handy! Any idea of manufacturer name etc? I'll do some searching at work..... cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 20 02:09:29 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:09:29 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: Message-ID: <428D8D2A.46BB644B@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > By the way, the original plac ethat picture was used was an old National > Geographic. I recall the same page has a picture of one of the piles as > ILLIAC 4 was being scrapped. (via David Forbes): > This photo is scanned in from the October 1982 issue of National > Geographic magazine, which I just found at the thrift store. It has > an article about The Chip, and another about Silicon Valley. Humorous > reading. Some more humour (in the ironic vein): there is an article in National Geographic of November 1970 that has a picture of ILLIAC 4 (IV) being assembled ("Behold the Computer Revolution", page 631). "... when completed will perform a billion operations a second and may rival in capacity all other computers combined ... The 25 million dollar machine...". From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri May 20 02:14:02 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:14:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <20050520005312.17383.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050520005312.17383.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49669.82.152.112.73.1116573242.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Lee: > Not very likely I'll admit but it can happen. The easy way to > diagnose this is if it works with brand new cells but cells a > couple of weeks old don't work well. Interesting....can't be a battery issue in this case though since I used brand new batteries with both keyboards I've got. The other one doesn't work at all! cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 02:31:09 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:31:09 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 22:20:53 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up > > cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into > > that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing > > PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF > > (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) > > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr > for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF > file :-) There are alternatives, like: - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well as some (generated) HTML page (containing some kind of slide show) as well as a small description file (use this with some program (to be written) to generate the HTML file(s)). This gives the chance that the description file can be done quite clever, so you'll get eg. a clickable index for the TIFF files (though, needs to be done manually, but now this work load can actually be *distributed*) - PDF isn't all that wrong. As far as I understood it, it's possible to embed any binary sequence into a PDF file. With a program (like an extended tumble) you can produce a readable PDF file that also acts as some kind of tarball (though needs a self-written generator/extractor). I actually *really* like the PDF approach, just because it's so easy and hassle-free to view the file. Also, if done right, you won't loose access to your actual image files. But in the long term, we need to work on the tools. (That's why I started to play a bit with the TeX approach.) That's my wishlist (to be addressed after the vax-linux port matured:-) - PDF files with really cool bookmarks, containing the chapter numbers, headings or page numbers (or any mixture of those). That means that the backing store might either be a tarball or a PDF file (used as a tarbarll). - I'm *really* missing a clickable index. People may invest the time to hand-type the original book's index and the pages into some description file. From this, I expect a new index (clickable) to be generated. - If graphical contents is OCRed+verified, there shall be a way to generate the final PDF with the OCRed data (except for those pages where this hasn't been done--there, the original image file should show up). Comments? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 02:38:40 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:38:40 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050520073840.GU2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 16:02:51 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > I've never found much use for the fancier scripting stuff in tumble. It > takes long enough to just do the minimal post-processing of the scans that > I do now to think about writing a script for each document to do any sort > of fancier indexing. Personally, I think the extra-features of tumble aren't not yet complete. But this is *not* a complaint: I'm a hacker and could probably add missing features, but (soon switching my employer, so I'm now coaching my remaining co-workers...) I'm horribly out of time. Maybe that'll get better in some time... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 02:46:25 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:46:25 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116545838.29178.112.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D1B1B.2030605@bitsavers.org> <1116545838.29178.112.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520074625.GV2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 23:37:18 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 16:02 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > I tend to 'explode' any PDF files of scans (from whatever source) here > once downloaded into their own directory; I just find it easier to > manipulate via whatever image tool is most suitable for whatever I'm > doing at the time, rather than being stuck with a PDF viewer. I suppose > if I wanted to add metadata to that, I'd include an ASCII text file in > the directory full of images with the relevant info in (I've done that > with ROM and Disk images many a time; not needed to do it with Doc scans > yet*) That's basically what I did for the TeX+Images -> PDF script, one .TXT file per image. This way, you can easily distribute work if needed. > Maybe I'm atypical in usage :-) I'll rarely want to download scans and > *not* keep a copy on local storage just in case, so I've never used the > "view a PDF file in a web browser" side of things. No, I consider that as normal, fair and expected usage :) Just a honest question. There is some kind of warez szene scanning/ORCing/correcting scans of current best-selling books. How do they do the job? They've basically got to solve the very same problem. > > If something different comes around, the PDF spec is public, and by using > > such a small subset it should be simple to translate. > > Yep true... plenty of tools already exist to pull PDF files apart. Well, > you'll be converting all your bitsavers content to futurekeep format > soon :-) Pointers for tools? Even while I'm out of time, I'd like to learn more:) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 02:49:30 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:49:30 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050520074930.GW2417@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-05-19 21:54:48 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey declared on Thursday 19 May 2005 07:52 pm: > > >From: "der Mouse" > > Of course, I have a better option. I have some of the actual > > ASCII source text for a few of the manuals used in the > > Polymorphics systems. I lack pictures and diagrams but > > at least there are not OCR errors. > > I guess this isn't always available for everything :( > > This gave me an idea... it'd be nifty if there was OCR software that > would convert the scanned image into LaTeX. That's called 'gocr'. Works, somewhat. > Barring that, PostScript would even be a decent alternative to PDF - it's > fairly readable Forth, and any decent printer can accept it to produce a > new hardcopy. I know you can convert PDF back to postscript (ie "Print" > from a pdf viewer on a *NIX machine), but that's probably not the same. PS and PDF are quite similar, with PS additionally giving you quite a complex programming language (that PDF lacks). MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From tomj at wps.com Fri May 20 03:27:22 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050520011944.W990@localhost> I used to go there all the time. I bought two Mannesmann/Tally printers, some weird little minicomputer (no brand, no docs, core, 18 bit, weird cards, don't ask I don't recall anything), Pertec 7-track tape drive I ran on the SWTPC, tons of weird boards; ogled $2000 64K (K!) boards, glared at the snotty MIT kids with HP calculators on their belts (I hope they are embarrassed now), looked at japanese 360 clones ($500?), a 6-foot-high analog pen plotter, a PDP-8/s and E (some really low serial number in the window). Bought my Olivetti Te318 (asr33 workalike but beautiful italian), I can't recall what else. Spent a lot of time and money there. Wish I had saved that mini! From gordon at gjcp.net Fri May 20 03:28:44 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:28:44 +0100 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050519003145.64202.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <428D9FBC.9000102@gjcp.net> William Maddox wrote: > --- shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > >>In the 60's and 70's, there was an outfit called >>"American Used Computer" > > > I have a copy of their Winter 1978 catalog that I > bought from William Donzelli a few months ago. I've > been meaning to scan it... > > --Bill And on that note - catalogues and stuff - does anyone know anything about the 1970s Maplin catalogue cover artwork? Who did it? Are the huge prints still available? Gordon. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri May 20 06:21:11 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:21:11 -0400 Subject: Foam pads for capacative keyboards In-Reply-To: <000c01c55cfb$a6ba48a0$263dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: > I just sent an email to Mil-Key Corp. since I heard they were a > supplier of replacement foam pads for some capacative keyboards > (keytronics). If you want to put together a large order to get a better price, count me in. I'd like to have spares for my Sol. Bill Sudbrink From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 06:21:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:21:21 +0000 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 21:59 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Tue, 17 May 2005 22:43:03 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > > can handle tar files... > > > > Which systems can't handle tar files?? I was meaning typical systems; obviously tar can be made to run on just about anything. But for the forseeable future at least, a machine is more likely to have zip tools *already* on it than tar (doesn't Windows even have - albeit crappy - zip functionality built in these days?). For the purpose of ensuring an archive's success, it seems sensible to use a format that's widespread and available without any additional fuss - *providing* other goals aren't compromised in the process. I've always used tar for archives myself (well, last ten years anyway) as I know they'd work across platforms. It's just that since someone pointed out that zip does have a "no compression" option I thought I'd ask list wisdom on its suitability. Seems that: a) There are questions over the open-ness of the spec b) Tar's still better at error recovery due to seperate headers per file ... which personally makes me think I'll carry on using tar. For the sizes of archives I tend to create, the 8GB limit won't be hit and so that's not a problem. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 06:36:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:36:24 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 09:31 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 22:20:53 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up > > > cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into > > > that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing > > > PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF > > > (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) > > > > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > > jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr > > for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF > > file :-) > > There are alternatives, like: > > - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well > as some (generated) See my other post; that's my preference and what I tend to do with all image-based PDF content I download from anywhere anyway... > HTML page (containing some kind of slide > show) as well as a small description file (use this with some > program (to be written) to generate the HTML file(s)). > > This gives the chance that the description file can be done > quite clever, so you'll get eg. a clickable index for the TIFF > files (though, needs to be done manually, but now this work > load can actually be *distributed*) One of the things that I was working on a few years back was layering multiple delivery mechanisms over one form of content (where the dataset was sufficiently large that storage in multiple formats wasn't justified). Data was kept in the "purest" form on the server side, and a client could ask for content in whatever format they wanted (in this case raw images, PDF, HTML etc.) and over whatever interface mechanism they wanted (HTTP, FTP, WAP, email, network filesystem etc.) Conversion of imagery tends to be memory-expensive, but not computationally so (unless you're also scaling / cropping images); caching can be added in where necessary so save on *some* resources. The other advantage is that as a database is keeping track of what's in the system there are potential hooks there for indexing and maintaing access stats. I could see some of the big archives around the planet (regardless of content) going this way in the future; user base is maximised through offering different formats whilst the "pure" dataset is all that's backed up and actually kept on disk. cheers Jules From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 07:05:36 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:05:36 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 11:36:24 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 09:31 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-05-19 22:20:53 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 23:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > > I'm still thinking about how paper-based documentation can be made up > > > > cleverly enough to gain text as well as images and mixing meta-data into > > > > that. Maybe I'd do some C programming and hack something nice producing > > > > PDF files helding everything? But first, I'd need to understand PDF > > > > (whose specification actually is about 8cm thick...) > > > > > > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > > > jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr > > > for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF > > > file :-) > > > > There are alternatives, like: > > > > - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well > > as some (generated) > > See my other post; that's my preference and what I tend to do with all > image-based PDF content I download from anywhere anyway... For the records (and my education), how do you extract these? > > HTML page (containing some kind of slide > > show) as well as a small description file (use this with some > > program (to be written) to generate the HTML file(s)). > > > > This gives the chance that the description file can be done > > quite clever, so you'll get eg. a clickable index for the TIFF > > files (though, needs to be done manually, but now this work > > load can actually be *distributed*) > > One of the things that I was working on a few years back was layering > multiple delivery mechanisms over one form of content (where the dataset > was sufficiently large that storage in multiple formats wasn't > justified). > > Data was kept in the "purest" form on the server side, and a client > could ask for content in whatever format they wanted (in this case raw > images, PDF, HTML etc.) and over whatever interface mechanism they > wanted (HTTP, FTP, WAP, email, network filesystem etc.) Actually, I was working on something like that as well, but with a different ulterior motive: build something like this as a redundant, peer-to-peer capable database and many of archiving-old-data problems just vanish. (Indeed, it would make up a nice P2P system as well.) > I could see some of the big archives around the planet (regardless of > content) going this way in the future; user base is maximised through > offering different formats whilst the "pure" dataset is all that's > backed up and actually kept on disk. That's what I dream about in long nights, but not as a centralized database, but a distributed one. Imagine you shift in a raw-encoded audio CD (with all the interleaved stuff intact, even containing all the mischievous, intentional errors. ...and a front-end interlacing WAV files (which another front-end could use to produce ogg/mp3/wma/you name it). Concepts like that can be applied to nearly all media types. Just record that the underliing (sp?) recording/reading machinery gets and write filters for that. These filters may get as complex as filesystem drivers. In fact, this *is* a layered filesystem. Remember the thread(s) about how to rescue tapes? ...or other HDD images? Apply these general concepts and things may get easier :) For now (as we're not (yet) there), prividing space isn't my main problem. It's about having (time to write) the software. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri May 20 07:17:39 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:17:39 -0500 Subject: Free 8088 Zenith laptop In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0E7EB737@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200505201217.j4KCH4mm058778@dewey.classiccmp.org> Drat, didn't mean to reply to the list. Sorry! > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:57 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Free 8088 Zenith laptop > > If the laptop isn't claimed yet, how much is it for shipping to 60031? > On May 18, 2005, at 8:44 PM, Erik Klein wrote: > > > > > Absolutely free (you pay the shipping): > > > > I have a Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97. It looks a lot like a > > SuperSport but it isn't. . . see > > http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/zenith_l/ > > for > > a look at one in much better shape then this. > > > > Mine is yellowed and has a crack on the front left but it > does work! > > It > > has an internal 3.5" floppy as well as a 20 MB HD. Given > enough time > > (it's SLOW) it will boot to the HD which has WordPerfect > and DOS 5.0 > > installed. > > > > The machine comes with a battery pack (dead) and a power > brick as well > > as a spare 3.5" drive. > > > > All yours for absolutely nothing if you come pick it up in > San Jose or > > for the cost of shipping if you want it anywhere else. > > > > It's gone by the end of the weekend, one way or the other. . . > > > > -- > > Erik Klein > > www.vintage-computer.com > > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > > The Vintage Computer Forum > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri May 20 08:26:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:26:13 -0500 Subject: Fw: essay on bus structure Message-ID: <008501c55d3f$7e818f30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was contacted by a student who is writing an essay on computer bus structure, comparing intel PCI bus to PDP-11 unibus. I'm certainly not qualified to give detailed information on this... so I'm passing it on here. If anyone cares to take a stab at this, you can contact her at: cqfranks at yahoo.com Caroline Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 08:37:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:37:54 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:05 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 11:36:24 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well > > > as some (generated) > > > > See my other post; that's my preference and what I tend to do with all > > image-based PDF content I download from anywhere anyway... > > For the records (and my education), how do you extract these? I've always used Imagemagick's 'convert' util to do it - 'convert foo.pdf foo.tif' will produce a multi-page TIFF image corresponding to the input pdf file. 'convert foo.pdf foo%02d.tif' will give you seperate TIFF images for each page (which is the more useful flavour) I believe Ghostscript will do it too, and there are at least a couple of other utils I've stumbled across in the past to do this (names elude me right now!) cheers Jules From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 08:50:41 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:50:41 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 13:37:54 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:05 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-05-20 11:36:24 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well > > > > as some (generated) > > > > > > See my other post; that's my preference and what I tend to do with all > > > image-based PDF content I download from anywhere anyway... > > > > For the records (and my education), how do you extract these? > > I've always used Imagemagick's 'convert' util to do it - > > 'convert foo.pdf foo.tif' will produce a multi-page TIFF image > corresponding to the input pdf file. > > 'convert foo.pdf foo%02d.tif' will give you seperate TIFF images for > each page (which is the more useful flavour) Will these extract the _original_ TIFF files (eg. with embedded comments etc.) or would it only produce images looking like the original ones? Oh, TIFF, *Tagged* image file format. TIFF could even be used to hole metadata :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 20 08:52:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:52:48 -0400 Subject: Interesting Epson memory card Message-ID: <0IGS00KO7JU8PG79@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Interesting Epson memory card > From: Cameron Kaiser > Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Ok along the same line I have a KINGSTON KTT-4500/4 4MB card that >> may fit older laptops. > >Might be for Toshiba Satellite systems. I have a 16MB "credit card" RAM >module in my Satellite T1950. > Ah, I have no toshiba laptops. Sounds like it's a unusalumpa. ;) Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Fri May 20 09:24:59 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:24:59 -0500 Subject: Foam pads for capacative keyboards In-Reply-To: <000c01c55cfb$a6ba48a0$263dd7d1@randy> References: <200505200052.RAA23316@clulw009.amd.com> <200505192154.49166.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000c01c55cfb$a6ba48a0$263dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <428DF33B.70100@pacbell.net> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I just sent an email to Mil-Key Corp. since I heard they were a supplier > of replacement foam pads for some capacative keyboards (keytronics). > > Does anyone else have any sources for replacements? > > > Thanks, > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com Sun Type 4 keyboards have the right kind of pads. They sun keyboards use two different types of foam -- one for the "normal" keys, and what I assume is a more durable type for the most frequently used keys, like shift, space, return. Taking pads out of an old keyboard of course means you will have somewhat old pads, but if you can get it at a good price, then it is hard to argue. To me it also appears that keytronic figured out a more durable foam material by the time the Sun Type 4 keyboards were produced. http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/keyboard.html From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 20 09:58:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:58:28 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > I've always used tar for archives myself (well, last ten years anyway) > as I know they'd work across platforms. It's just that since someone > pointed out that zip does have a "no compression" option I thought I'd > ask list wisdom on its suitability. Seems that: > > a) There are questions over the open-ness of the spec ZIP is 100% completely wide open. I remember Phil Katz himself donated donating the specs to the BBS community. There was never any question as to whether or not the format was meant to be documented. > b) Tar's still better at error recovery due to seperate headers per > file Yes, but RAR is better than both of them :-) because neither ZIP nor TAR contain any form of ECC. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 20 10:00:37 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:00:37 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428DFB95.4090000@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>The solution is an archive format that handles nearly ludicrous sizes, such as > > > Is this really an issue for archiving boot disks and their metadata? tar I thought it was obvious from the direction of the thread that we weren't talking about boot disks any more :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 10:01:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:01:39 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 15:50 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 13:37:54 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:05 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > On Fri, 2005-05-20 11:36:24 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > - A tarball containing all the TIFF (or whatever) images as well > > > > > as some (generated) > > > > > > > > See my other post; that's my preference and what I tend to do with all > > > > image-based PDF content I download from anywhere anyway... > > > > > > For the records (and my education), how do you extract these? > > > > I've always used Imagemagick's 'convert' util to do it - > > > > 'convert foo.pdf foo.tif' will produce a multi-page TIFF image > > corresponding to the input pdf file. > > > > 'convert foo.pdf foo%02d.tif' will give you seperate TIFF images for > > each page (which is the more useful flavour) > > Will these extract the _original_ TIFF files (eg. with embedded comments > etc.) or would it only produce images looking like the original ones? Hmm, I'm not actually sure - if I get chance later I'll do some tests... it certainly won't result in any quality loss, but whether it preserves comments I don't know. Possibly it depends on the PDF spec too (i.e. whether the PDF spec explictly mentions non-image fields within image data embedded in a PDF file and whether the spec says that they must be preserved when transformations are done) > Oh, TIFF, *Tagged* image file format. TIFF could even be used to hole > metadata :) It's *could* - problem I've always found is that tools to handle multi- image TIFF files are pretty thin on the ground; they either don't bother at all (and assume one image per file) or they try and buffer the whole lot into memory (for 100 A4 page scans in one file, that's Not A Good Thing). Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually try and handle TIFFs properly (as I've said in the past, even Imagemagick isn't great because it buffers data to 32-bit colourspace in memory regardless of the actual images' bit depth) That then means that for TIFF to be a viable archive option, it needs to be one image per page - which also means duplicating metadata across all pages (images) too. In some ways it'd be handy having metadata in each image saying what document it relates to, but duplicating a copy of the index, description, search keywords or whatever across every image making up a scanned document seems a bit excessive. I think I'd rather keep the image data as seperate TIFF files within a common directory / archive making up a document, and a single ASCII file that provides the metadata for that document (TIFF's a pretty darn good format, but it's let down by some pretty bad tools out there) Open question to the list - would PNG files be a better option than TIFF? In terms of what I've said above, there's probably not a lot in it (and TIFF probably has support on classic hardware where PNG doesn't). But PNG possibly has the advantage that most (and certainly all modern) web browsers support it, which possibly has implications for a web- accessible archive... cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 20 10:25:10 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:25:10 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102319.04ed6978@mail> At 10:01 AM 5/20/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually >try and handle TIFFs properly With tagged formats, the problem in my mind has always been a lack of mechanism for an app to decide what to do with unknown tags while processing a file. Do you throw out the tags or keep them? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 20 10:26:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:26:29 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102134.0522ca30@mail> At 09:58 AM 5/20/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >ZIP is 100% completely wide open. I remember Phil Katz himself donated donating the specs to the BBS community. There was never any question as to whether or not the format was meant to be documented. Phil's pickled and molding in the grave and the world turns. There's old 'pkzip', there's WinZip (commercial software with undocumented but perhaps rarely used extensions), there's 'infozip' open source'd, there's Zip extraction in Windows XP... there's plenty of standards to choose from. :-) - John From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 10:27:48 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:27:48 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520152748.GB2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 15:01:39 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > That then means that for TIFF to be a viable archive option, it needs to > be one image per page - which also means duplicating metadata across all > pages (images) too. ...which I consider to be a good thing, to some extend. Keeping Part N?, title, year, ... in each and every page just looks like a bug. But OTOH keeping an image's keywords, printed page number, captions on a per-page (or per-image, that is) basis is a good thing. > In some ways it'd be handy having metadata in each image saying what > document it relates to, but duplicating a copy of the index, > description, search keywords or whatever across every image making up a > scanned document seems a bit excessive. Full ACK. But keeping the index words that apply to this very page inside the TIFF might make some sense :) > I think I'd rather keep the image data as seperate TIFF files within a > common directory / archive making up a document, and a single ASCII file > that provides the metadata for that document (TIFF's a pretty darn good > format, but it's let down by some pretty bad tools out there) A text file would work as well, but I'd place one text file per image and one for the per-document metadata. > Open question to the list - would PNG files be a better option than > TIFF? In terms of what I've said above, there's probably not a lot in it > (and TIFF probably has support on classic hardware where PNG doesn't). > But PNG possibly has the advantage that most (and certainly all modern) > web browsers support it, which possibly has implications for a web- > accessible archive... Wouldn't a web browser also show TIFFs? At least the simple ones? *check* No. My Firefox would like to display it with the 'display' program of ImageMagick... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 10:55:42 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:55:42 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102319.04ed6978@mail> References: <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102319.04ed6978@mail> Message-ID: <20050520155542.GC2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 10:25:10 -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 10:01 AM 5/20/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually > >try and handle TIFFs properly > > With tagged formats, the problem in my mind has always been > a lack of mechanism for an app to decide what to do with > unknown tags while processing a file. Do you throw out the > tags or keep them? Ask the user. There's no sane way to decide wether a tag may be thrown away or should be thrown away. Just two sample cases: For astronomical use, you want to keep all tags. They contain important image information (most important they contain RA and declination as well as the size of the image). If you're photoshop'ping your digital stil-camera's pictures, you'd actually like to throw away the tags. Most prominent, there are smaller preview images embedded that may or may not be a "good" preview image after some servere photoshopping... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 10:55:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 15:55:47 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102319.04ed6978@mail> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102319.04ed6978@mail> Message-ID: <1116604547.30967.81.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 10:25 -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 10:01 AM 5/20/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually > >try and handle TIFFs properly > > With tagged formats, the problem in my mind has always been > a lack of mechanism for an app to decide what to do with > unknown tags while processing a file. Do you throw out the > tags or keep them? Well I suppose you preserve tags even if you don't understand them when copying etc. When decoding, you just skip any that you don't understand and in theory your decoder either finds no image it can understand and breaks, or it works. Are there any vendor-unique TIFF tags out there that are indirectly related to the image decoding process? I don't remember stumbling across vendor-unique tags that say something like "apply xyz filter after decoding and before displaying" or anything like that, so a decoder should either be able to display the correct image or barf, but not something inbetween. I could be wrong there though... ISTR that the baseline TIFF tags that any decoder should understand support quite a lot of useful fields (including metadata-like stuff, like description, author, timestamp, software package etc.) I tend to find that decoders are pretty good at handling the various tags, they just often seem to be spectacularly crap at processing TIFF files with multiple images in them - often because image tools are often written with a 1:1 mapping between file and image in mind I suppose. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri May 20 11:12:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:12:39 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102134.0522ca30@mail> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102134.0522ca30@mail> Message-ID: <428E0C77.5050602@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 09:58 AM 5/20/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>ZIP is 100% completely wide open. I remember Phil Katz himself donated donating the specs to the BBS community. There was never any question as to whether or not the format was meant to be documented. > > > Phil's pickled and molding in the grave and the world turns. There's old > 'pkzip', there's WinZip (commercial software with undocumented but perhaps > rarely used extensions), there's 'infozip' open source'd, there's Zip > extraction in Windows XP... there's plenty of standards to choose from. :-) Are these all different standards, or simply implementations of the ZIP standard? Just to throw a small wrench into the ZIP vs tar monkey-works, ZIP *is* more reliable in MacOSX than tar. The tar that ships from Apple doesn't archive the resource fork of a file, breaking functionality of a lot of native Mac files. In the current context, this isn't directly a big deal, but it's something to consider as an illustration. There will always be certain limitations, on certain systems, to any archival tool. Any archiving project that gets bogged down in finding The Perfect Universal Format is doomed. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 11:32:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:32:48 +0000 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions Message-ID: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Now that those of us in the UK are forced to use the new google groups interface to their archive... 1) How do I see how active a group is or what groups exist in a particular hierarchy? (e.g. I used to be able to stick "comp.sys.sun" into the search field and it'd show me both that hierarchy and group activity, which was handy when deciding where to post) 2) Are full email addresses available to view by registered users? It used to handy being able to try and contact someone from x years ago who had knowledge of something I wanted details on. Now Google seem to be masking them all though... I'll send these two to Google themselves of course, but as you US guys have been stuck with the new interface for months maybe you already have answers... 3) Is anyone else archiving usenet or do Google have sole control? cheers Jules From vrs at msn.com Fri May 20 11:55:22 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:55:22 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org><001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy><20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de><1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de><1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de><1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > It's *could* - problem I've always found is that tools to handle multi- > image TIFF files are pretty thin on the ground; they either don't bother > at all (and assume one image per file) or they try and buffer the whole > lot into memory (for 100 A4 page scans in one file, that's Not A Good > Thing). Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually > try and handle TIFFs properly (as I've said in the past, even > Imagemagick isn't great because it buffers data to 32-bit colourspace in > memory regardless of the actual images' bit depth) The spectacular badness of TIFF viewers (at least at the free-as-in-beer level) is why I prefer PDFs. Despite their problems, the PDF viewers seem *way* better at rendering (and printing) the pages. (Though I am sure there are other platforms which have no decent PDF viewer.) Vince From cctalk at randy482.com Fri May 20 12:01:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:01:58 -0500 Subject: Couple of google groups questions References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001901c55d5d$a5b79220$0e92d6d1@randy> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:32 AM > Now that those of us in the UK are forced to use the new google groups > interface to their archive... > > 1) How do I see how active a group is or what groups exist in a > particular hierarchy? (e.g. I used to be able to stick "comp.sys.sun" > into the search field and it'd show me both that hierarchy and group > activity, which was handy when deciding where to post) > > 2) Are full email addresses available to view by registered users? It > used to handy being able to try and contact someone from x years ago who > had knowledge of something I wanted details on. Now Google seem to be > masking them all though... > > I'll send these two to Google themselves of course, but as you US guys > have been stuck with the new interface for months maybe you already have > answers... > > 3) Is anyone else archiving usenet or do Google have sole control? > > cheers > > Jules Most free systems are now trying to protect against data mining. Google does allow you to send a message to the original poster but keeps the email address hidden until you get a response. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 12:08:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:08:34 +0000 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy><20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 09:55 -0700, vrs wrote: > > It's *could* - problem I've always found is that tools to handle multi- > > image TIFF files are pretty thin on the ground; they either don't bother > > at all (and assume one image per file) or they try and buffer the whole > > lot into memory (for 100 A4 page scans in one file, that's Not A Good > > Thing). Only about 20% of tools I've come across over the years actually > > try and handle TIFFs properly (as I've said in the past, even > > Imagemagick isn't great because it buffers data to 32-bit colourspace in > > memory regardless of the actual images' bit depth) > > The spectacular badness of TIFF viewers (at least at the free-as-in-beer > level) is why I prefer PDFs. Despite their problems, the PDF viewers seem > *way* better at rendering (and printing) the pages. (Though I am sure there > are other platforms which have no decent PDF viewer.) Acrobat seems to be the only one under Linux that works well with PDFs full of image scans, but the fact that Adobe have bloated it out to nearly 100MB for the viewer has annoyed me somewhat. Ghostscript doesn't seem to render with particularly good quality, and all the other viewers I've tried seem rather incapable of dealing with the physical size of PDF files that are wrapping document scans (I assume it's another one of those situations where they're trying to buffer the whole damn file into memory at once) Presumably other Unix platforms suffer the same problems as they're largely reliant on the same tools. How Adobe mange to make Acrobat eat up 100MB of space is beyond me though... :-( I can't say I've found many bad TIFF viewers for single images though (on any platform); it's only when multiple images are put into the same file that a lot of tools start falling over. cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri May 20 12:20:47 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:20:47 -0500 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0FDA.3000604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003b01c55d60$46fa4ea0$0e92d6d1@randy> I saw that Al posted edited (improved) verstions of the indexes for the WesternDigital files I sent him. After the fact I realized another great benefit - even without the "google search" if you are just browsing Al's site you can quickly look at the text file to see what is in the PDF. I now need to look at my PDF's to see if anything similar can be done. Randy From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 20 12:29:18 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:29:18 +0200 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 17:08:34 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I can't say I've found many bad TIFF viewers for single images though > (on any platform); it's only when multiple images are put into the same > file that a lot of tools start falling over. We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: - How do you scan a paper document? Page by page? Two pages at once (with a sufficient large scanner)? Do you use a script or something like that? ...or are there well-working applications out there that aid in scanning some 100 pages? Do you directly scan b/w, or first use grayscale/colour and then degrade that to b/w? - How do you work on the scanned images: Do you cut off the white rim as much as possible? How do you deal with images that are a tad rotated? Accept that? Re-scan to hopefully get a better image? Revert rotation in software? How do you deal with single black dots in white areas or the other way around? - What digital format do you like to get when it's all finished? Plain PDF? PDF with some bookmarks? PDF with all headings as bookmarks? A new PDF-hyperref based index? Multiple TIFF/PNG/whatever images? Something like a web-based slide-show? ...or multiple formats (web-based for viewing, PDF for printing, ...)? - What do you currently use as your software: Operating system: PDF viewer: TIFF viewer: Browser/other viewers you'd love to use: MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From vrs at msn.com Fri May 20 12:36:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 10:36:41 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org><001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy><20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de><1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de><1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de><1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain><20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de><1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain><00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" > I can't say I've found many bad TIFF viewers for single images though > (on any platform); it's only when multiple images are put into the same > file that a lot of tools start falling over. The most common problems that I have had with single images have to do with crappy scaling of the picture to fit the screen or printer. (Almost any viewer will look OK with zoom set to 100%.) The next most serious problem has been slowness (probably due to bad buffering decisions) but that's mostly with a really large image (or multiple images). For multiple image files, the slowness is often horrific, plus the interface for switching pages completely sucks. (Forgetting the zoom setting when going to the next page is an example that comes to mind.) Vince From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri May 20 12:58:28 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:58:28 +0100 Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available References: <200505171753.SAA08657@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <005201c55d65$8cfe8e20$0200a8c0@geoff> http://www.homepower.com/files/desulfator.pdf Above shows battery revitaliser cct. Elektor had a more complex cct. in the September 2001 issue. Don't know how successful it would be with sealed gel batteries. CPC / Farnell have similar prices to ARD with CPC offering free carriage with orders over ?30 (ex. vat ) I think Farnell have free carriage over ?10. Again no connection with either company, just use them a lot. Geoff. > > I have *two* 1kW Smart-UPS units with dead batteries. (And two more which > > I am using but the batteries are 'weak'.) > > > > Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a case > > of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does > > anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 20 13:20:43 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:20:43 -0700 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) Message-ID: <428E2A7B.6000707@bitsavers.org> We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: -- here is the current workflow that I'm using Ricoh IS520 30page/minute duplex B&W scanner that can handle up to 11 x 17 with crappy Windows scan app (under vmware) generates even / odd pages into two separate directories. Since it turned out that scanning wide-edge first results in straighter scans, I need to postprocess front and back separately since the backs are flipped 180 deg. The tiffs are on a shared file system with my Mac. I do all of the cleanup on there with Graphic Converter. I have a bunch of scripts I run over the files to produce a single directory with the pages brought to size and the boarders cleaned up. I then cull the dups/bad scans, check that I didn't miss any pages then save the files with the page number as the file name. Then I squirt the dir back over to the linux box (since tumble is little-endian only) and say: tumble -b %F * ../file.pdf Copy it back over to the Mac, add it to the postprocessed scans and put the whole thing in a 'to be archived' dir where it is saved to DVD-R If there are pages that can't be scanned on the Ricoh, I do those separately on a Mustek 11x17 flatbed. Then, ftp the pdf to bitsavers, and update the index files. From mokuba at gmail.com Fri May 20 13:53:16 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:53:16 -0400 Subject: Kaypro II system disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be more then happy to take over a leadership/management roll in such an archive, if no one else would step up to run it... On May 18, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> I haven't had much to say about the CP/M archive, but as I do have a >> few machines (Kaypro and S-100), I have an interest in what happens. >> Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't start a parallel archive, >> just in case, at least of some of the more common formats. It would >> be a life's work (literally) to build an archive as extensive as >> Don's, but for most of us here, I would think that a dozen or two >> disks would meet most of our needs (Kaypro, Osbourne, NorthStar...) >> > > I've heard a lot of people talking about this over the past couple > days > but no action. It doesn't take much to launch an archive. Jay > already > offered the digital space and the bandwidth. Someone should take a > leadership role here. I would but I don't think I'm keen to add yet > another project to my agenda. > > If everyone started contributing en masse to a parallel archive, > what Don > had could be duplicated in 6 months. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http:// > www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http:// > marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 14:02:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:02:46 +0000 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <1116615766.30950.126.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 19:29 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 17:08:34 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I can't say I've found many bad TIFF viewers for single images though > > (on any platform); it's only when multiple images are put into the same > > file that a lot of tools start falling over. > > We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to > handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: > > - How do you scan a paper document? Page by page? Two pages at once > (with a sufficient large scanner)? Do you use a script or something > like that? ...or are there well-working applications out there that > aid in scanning some 100 pages? Single page here for A4 docs; for A5 I'll do two pages at once and have written scripts before to automate the rotating / cropping process (and chop out some of the 'noise' in the white background to reduce file size). I tend to use 300dpi. (Lots of Windows scanner software seems to try and be clever and adjust the contrast on the fly btw - which isn't so good when you're trying to get consistency across multiple pages!) > Do you directly scan b/w, or first use grayscale/colour and then degrade that to b/w? I use 8 bit greyscale for all pages, 24bit colour for covers. The former because I don't want my scanning process to harm future OCR attempts; I'd rather leave as much info in the images as possible rather than chop to b/w at a certain threshold and find much later down the line that information had been lost. If there's no assumption that the docs will never be OCR'd then that's not a problem though. I could probably get away with 16 grey levels actually rather than 256 as a reasonable trade- off between flexibility and storage requirements. > - How do you work on the scanned images: Do you cut off the white rim as > much as possible? How do you deal with images that are a tad rotated? > Accept that? Re-scan to hopefully get a better image? Revert rotation > in software? I've been known to clean up scans and sort out rotation (in particular photocopied docs tend to be not very straight). It's a time-consuming job though; I'm almost tempted to say it's not relevant at the scanning stage and can be deferred (much like the OCR process). > How do you deal with single black dots in white areas or the other way around? I don't. Lots of storage space can be saved by altering the black and white threshold of the image though (without checking, I think I found treating the bottom 10% as black and the top 20% as white worked particularly well) > - What digital format do you like to get when it's all finished? Plain > PDF? PDF with some bookmarks? PDF with all headings as bookmarks? A > new PDF-hyperref based index? Multiple TIFF/PNG/whatever images? > Something like a web-based slide-show? ...or multiple formats > (web-based for viewing, PDF for printing, ...)? Seperate TIFF images, one image per page in the original doc. I scan blank pages too (!) just so that things will work out at any printing stage. I suppose I want to capture a bit of the "feel" of the original document as well as the raw content. > - What do you currently use as your software: > > Operating system: Linux for processing / scripting images, scanner's currently an awful USB thing hooked up to a Windows box though (urgh). > PDF viewer: Try to avoid it where possible. I think I'll end up settling on Acrobat 5.1 under Linux; 7.0 is way too bloated. XPDF and KDE's offering don't handle PDFs of document scans at all well. Ghostscript seems to have issues with rendering quality (that could just be a misconfig / RTFM issue on my part though) > TIFF viewer: GQView's my current favourite general image viewer; it seems fast at decoding and does a good job as a browser / thumbnail handler. I've not tried it on multi-page TIFFs yet though to see what it does... > Browser/other viewers you'd love to use: Well, I'd still like a native Linux version of Paint Shop Pro... :) cheers Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 20 14:05:43 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:05:43 +0100 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing onbitsavers) In-Reply-To: <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <001301c55d6e$ed2f6860$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > - How do you scan a paper document? Page by page? Two pages at > once (with a sufficient large scanner)? Do you use a script > or something like that? ...or are there well-working > applications out there that aid in scanning some 100 pages? Both the previous place I was at and my current employer have B&W scanners with an autofeeder and scan to PDF. The previous one would drop a PDF on the desktop, the current one emails it to me. Both would do double-sided. > Do you directly scan b/w, or first use grayscale/colour and > then degrade that to b/w? Scan in bitonal (1-bit, B&W). Then I (usually, now) post process to convert to G4 encoded TIFFs within a PDF. > - How do you work on the scanned images: Do you cut off the > white rim as much as possible? I leave them as they come. If I scan a booklet, or something that cannot be non-destructively taken apart (and later reassembled) then I will scan two pages at a time and post-process manually. In that case I'll probably end up cropping at the physical page edges. > How do you deal with images > that are a tad rotated? Accept that? Re-scan to hopefully > get a better image? Revert rotation in software? If it is bad I will try to rescan, especially if it is only a few pages. I've never tried to rotate in software. > How do you > deal with single black dots in white areas or the other way > around? Never worried about that. > - What digital format do you like to get when it's all > finished? Plain PDF? PDF with some bookmarks? PDF with all > headings as bookmarks? A new PDF-hyperref based index? > Multiple TIFF/PNG/whatever images? Something like a > web-based slide-show? ...or multiple formats (web-based for > viewing, PDF for printing, ...)? I produce PDF as the final format. I do not usually bother adding bookmarks or whatever. > - What do you currently use as your software: > > Operating system: Linux (Debian), Solaris, VMS, DOS and Windows. > PDF viewer: Acrobat or xpdf. > TIFF viewer: IrfanView, but most things I use PDF > Browser/other viewers you'd love to use: I'd love to see near-perfect OCR (average error rate of say one missed/misinterpreted character per 500 pages on 5th generation photocopies of technical manuals from the 1960s). If I get a second wish, I would like something that can take multicolour text pages (like the RSX-111 MPLUS manuals) and slice it and dice it into multiple layers (blue/pink/red/black etc. and put it back together as a PDF. I still have hundreds (maybe more) pages waiting to be processed - each is currently a 24MB (or so) 24-bit colour TIFF (at 600dpi). Help :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 14:06:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:06:25 +0000 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <428E2A7B.6000707@bitsavers.org> References: <428E2A7B.6000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1116615985.30950.131.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 11:20 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to > handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: > > > -- > > here is the current workflow that I'm using Al, what do you do with "fold out" pages within documents (e.g. A4 doc that has a handful of fold out A3 schematics in)? Do you scan the two halves of the A3 pages and join them together as a single image, leave them as two seperate A4 scans in the doc, or scan them totally seperately on an A3 scanner before including in the 'output' doc? I've never quite decided what to do about this myself... cheers Jules From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri May 20 13:12:48 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:12:48 +0100 Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes References: from"Adrian Graham" at May 19, 5 10:04:49 pm <49666.82.152.112.73.1116572937.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <018801c55d70$8e679300$0200a8c0@geoff> > > card sized -- coated with some special phosphor material. You 'charge' > > them by exposing them to normal light, and then they glow if hit with an > > IR beam. You can recharge them many times, I am not sure what the > > lifetime is. > > Those would be handy! Any idea of manufacturer name etc? I'll do some > searching at work..... > > cheers > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? CPC do 2 types of card tester ?4.57 & ?6.42 + vat + carr. Also a battery operated rc tester for about ?7. Geoff. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 20 14:24:42 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:24:42 -0700 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) Message-ID: <428E397A.7090009@bitsavers.org> > what do you do with "fold out" pages within documents The IS520 will scan fold out pages directly in most cases. For the REALLY long pages, I scan them in overlapping sections and append a letter to the page number. The first piece is the left side of the page, so as you page through the document the overlapping sections scan across the long sheet left to right. Variable width documents add another level to the scan directory A convention I came up with a long time ago was to add '_number' to the file name. Changing scanning size is fairly easy between sections (changing the scan width, normally) in the program. So, if you scan a doc that has an 11x17 page, you'll end up with the following directories foo_f foo_b foo_f_1l (the 'l' is a marker that let's me know it's a long page) foo_b_1l foo_f_2 foo_b_2 ..and on an on for all the alternating page sizes Then I have to flip the filters around for all the differing page sizes and orientations Eventually, this produces sequentially numbered tiffs of differing sizes which are then 'tumbled' ..also forgot that I rotate 8x11 pages to 11x8 if the page has horizontal data on it. DEC tech manuals are the worst.. they will often have a single 11x17 page so I'll end up with dozens of directories that need to be manipulated. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 20 14:34:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:34:01 +0000 Subject: Anyone in Edinburgh... Message-ID: <1116617641.30950.141.camel@weka.localdomain> ... able to pick up a Sun CPU board for us and get it any further south at any point? I've found someone in Edinburgh who has a replacement Sun 4/330 CPU board for us, but I don't exactly trust it going through the postal system :-( Getting it as far as Newcastle (*waves to Witchy*) or Leeds area by car, or further south to Bletchley itself / Cambridge / Luton / London would be rather useful! Actually, it sounds like there's an entire 4/330 system; we only need the CPU board - but if this donor one has a framebuffer then I could cobble together a seperate working 4/330 out of the bits and our broken 4/330 CPU board... albeit it one with knackered serial ports :) No real loss if we just get the CPU board and not the rest though... cheers Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri May 20 14:40:22 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:40:22 +0100 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <1116615766.30950.126.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> <1116615766.30950.126.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <154d296e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1116615766.30950.126.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > (Lots of Windows scanner software seems to try and be clever and adjust > the contrast on the fly btw - which isn't so good when you're trying to > get consistency across multiple pages!) For EPSON Scan: Professional Mode -> Configuration -> Colour -> uncheck "Continuous Auto Exposure". Then just click the AE button (sphere with two diagonal red arrows pointing to it) for the first page - for the rest of the pages, just hit the Scan button. > I use 8 bit greyscale for all pages, 24bit colour for covers. Same here. I sometimes scan in 8-bit then downsample to 1-bit and save in TIFF format with CCITT Group4 Fax compression. For the 8-bit images, I use whatever lossless compression format works best. > Seperate TIFF images, one image per page in the original doc. I scan > blank pages too (!) just so that things will work out at any printing > stage. I suppose I want to capture a bit of the "feel" of the original > document as well as the raw content. Hmm. Good plan. > Linux for processing / scripting images, scanner's currently an awful > USB thing hooked up to a Windows box though (urgh). I use Linux and Win2k, depending on my mood. I'm currently using the i486 release of Slackware 10.1, but I'm migrating to Fedora's Core 3 x86-64 distro. I figure, the PC's got a 64-bit CPU, so why not make some use of it? 'Course it means I have to build a lot of stuff from source to get the speed benefits, but that just adds to the fun :) Software? Imagemagick on Linux or IrfanView on Win2k. I use the SANE drivers for my scanner (Epson backend) or EPSON Scan on W2k. The scanner is an Epson Perfection 2400 Photo, picked because it was Linux compatible. As far as hardware goes, my main machine (Cheetah) has an AMD Athlon64 3200+ on an Asus A8V Deluxe mainboard, with 512MB of RAM (single-channel PC3200/DDR400 mode), an 80GB Maxtor D740X hard drive, a LiteON LDW-851S DVD recorder (cross-flashed with firmware from the SOHW-832S Dual Layer burner to get DVD+R9 burning functionality), and a CEC PCI-488 GPIB card. I wanted a National Instruments GPIB, but the ones I saw second-hand were selling for very close to the price of a brand new card... > Ghostscript seems to have > issues with rendering quality (that could just be a misconfig / RTFM > issue on my part though) I've noticed that... It doesn't antialias when it draws to an X window for some reason. > GQView's my current favourite general image viewer; it seems fast at > decoding and does a good job as a browser / thumbnail handler. I've not > tried it on multi-page TIFFs yet though to see what it does... [quick google] Ah, you use the Gnome WM then? I use KDE, though not for any reason other than "it came with Mandrake 8 and I've used it ever since". > Well, I'd still like a native Linux version of Paint Shop Pro... :) *koff* Gimp *koff* Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 20 15:29:59 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200505202042.QAA20188@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to > handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: > - How do you scan a paper document? Page by page? Page by page, usually. If it's bound, and two pages fit together on my scanner, I'll often do it two pages at a time. > Do you use a script or something like that? No...though I will use shell history mechanisms to ease the task, each scan generally involves at least a few keystrokes. > Do you directly scan b/w, or first use grayscale/colour and then > degrade that to b/w? This is a judgement call. Sometimes I'll do colour, sometimes greyscale, sometimes binary. When I do binary I'll sometimes lett he scanner do it and sometimes I'll scan it some other way and convert it by hand. > - How do you work on the scanned images: Do you cut off the white rim > as much as possible? Usually. > How do you deal with images that are a tad rotated? Ignore the rotation, usually. Egregious cases I may rescan. In some cases, I touch up the orientation with pnmrotate (and a subsequent pnmcut). > How do you deal with single black dots in white areas or the other > way around? If the use is one for which they matter, I edit them out "by hand". > - What digital format do you like to get when it's all finished? > Plain PDF? PDF with some bookmarks? PDF with all headings as > bookmarks? A new PDF-hyperref based index? Multiple > TIFF/PNG/whatever images? Something like a web-based slide-show? > ...or multiple formats (web-based for viewing, PDF for printing, > ...)? I dislike PDF. I loathe Web-specific stuff. I generally just keep a directory around with the iamge files. Sometimes I'll tar it up, sometimes I'll use compression programs like gzip or bzip2 to reduce the storage requirements. > - What do you currently use as your software: > Operating system: NetBSD (1.4T plus a number of private hacks). > PDF viewer: GhostScript (8.30 at the moment). > TIFF viewer: tifftopnm, often transformed with pnm tools like pnmscale, with the resulting p*m file displayed using a picture display program of my own. > Browser/other viewers you'd love to use: I've yet to find really *good* such tools, probably because my user-interface tastes are unusual. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri May 20 16:31:52 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:31:52 +0100 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001f01c55d83$582b0340$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John A. Dundas III wrote: > Indeed that is the way I discovered things. At the time I had > a fiche reader on my desk at work (as well as a machine > readable version of the V3 listings) and used /ANALYZE > liberally. > > I still have some of the paper documents from V3 that > specified the format. Would you like those scanned? I didn't see anyone else say yes, so I'll say it. If you have a VMS V3 docset, it would be nice to see it scanned. V6 (or thereabouts) onwards is available in PDF and HTML. V5 (ish) onwards (say 1993+) is available in Bookreader format and there are programs around that can display and convert that. V4 and before exists (AFAIK) only on paper (and maybe microfiche). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 20 18:42:22 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:42:22 -0400 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <001f01c55d83$582b0340$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001f01c55d83$582b0340$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <428E75DE.nailF1111HLET@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > V4 and before exists (AFAIK) only on paper By the time of V4, most all of the manuals were being maintained internally in VAX DOCUMENT. It's fairly standard SGML, although there were some specialized macros used just for DEC-ish look and feel at the presentation. ' Those that weren't VAX DOCUMENT were DSR (Runoff). On their way to paper the VAX DOCUMENT source was turned into postscript. Some layered products came with postscript release notes and electronic documentation (usually bookreader but sometimes flat text and sometimes postscript.) Tim. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri May 20 19:38:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... In-Reply-To: <428BDA28.nailM8D1FB110@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: For the Apple 2 fans...or the MVS fan...or those that hate either one... http://www.livejournal.com/users/jmaynard/203754.html William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 19:12:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:12:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <49666.82.152.112.73.1116572937.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from "Witchy" at May 20, 5 08:08:57 am Message-ID: [IR detector card] > Those would be handy! Any idea of manufacturer name etc? I'll do some > searching at work..... No definite sources, but try the TV spares places, like CPC and Grandata. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 18:49:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:49:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DC100 tapes In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 19, 5 05:32:48 pm Message-ID: > > > I have a couple HP DC100 tapes that I'm going to attempt a dump from. I'm > told they were written on a 9845. I don't have a 9845 (still regret the > one I missed years ago). Can these be read on a 9830B? What about an HP > 85? Doesn't the 9830 use tapes which are mechanically similar to an audio compact cassette? Mine certainly does, but maybe the 9830B is different The HP85 uses the same tapes, but I would be suprised if it could read them directly. It's worth trying, though. A bit more informatin that is probably useless to you.... The 9815, 9825 and 9845 all use essentially the same tape drive mechanism. It's used in the 9877 'external tape memory' too. The little PCB attacted to the tape drive, which contains the read preamp and head switch is much the same in all these units too. The 9815 s tape controller is part of the PSU/printer driver board. It doesn't do a lot, most of the hard work is done by software on the 6800. IIRC there's some circuitry on the keyboard/display interface board to control the motor speed. The tape controller in the 9825 is much the same as the board used in the 9877. It controls one drive, the 9877 can take up to 4 controller boards. It's a pretty dumb device. It does keep the motor speed constant, but that's about all it does. It does nothing with the data -- the CPU reads it, possibly using DMA, one pit at a time from the LSB of one of the ports. I've not looked seriously at the 9845 tape controller yet. I do know it only controls one drive -- there are 2 identical-looking controller boards in my machine (it has the second drive option). There's an HP hybrid module in the middle, with some small chips and a couple of power transistors round it. I asusme it's much the same as the 9025 controller, but using this hybrid to replace many simpler chips. I don't think it does anything much with the data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 18:51:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:51:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interesting Epson memory card In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 19, 5 05:35:53 pm Message-ID: > > > Has anyone ever seen one of these? > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/epson/ > > It's a credit card sized memory device made by Epson. > > Allegedly stored anywhere from 16 - 128K per card. Used some sort of > backup battery for the memory. I don't believe this was flash. No, I am pretty sure it was battery-backed RAM > Apparently Epson OEM'd them to various companies for use in various > devices, presumably including laptops. I seem to rememebr (and hey. it's about 15 years ago,...) that you could modify some Epson RAM card to work in the HP48SX calculator. I think it was a mod to the low-voltage detection circuitry. I wouldn't be suprised if the 'real' HP cards were OEMed by Epson... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 18:56:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:56:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: ACT Apricot keyboards, or infra-red japes In-Reply-To: <20050520005312.17383.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at May 20, 5 01:53:12 am Message-ID: > > > Surely there's one encoder and IR transmitter for the > > entire keyboard (there may be several IR LEDs, but > > normally they're wired in series and send the same > > information). In which case if _any_ keys work, then > > it's very unlikely the problem is with the IR transmitter. > > Not true. IR formats where the energy density per bit type > differs can fail on specific codes due to the IR LED supply > capacitor failing. E.g. in the Sony SIRC protocol a 1 bit is That's why I said 'very unlikely' not 'certainly not' :-) > transmitted as 1.2ms of carrier and .6ms gap whereas a 0 bit > is .6ms of carrier and .6ms gap. In this case any command that > has a sequence of two or more 1s may fail where a code with > only single 1s way work. > > Not very likely I'll admit but it can happen. The easy way to > diagnose this is if it works with brand new cells but cells a > couple of weeks old don't work well. Even then it may not work, if the inductance of the supply leads is significant. Personally, I'd check/replace any suspect capacitors early on. If you have a 'socpe or logic probe, see if you can find the drive signal to the IR transmitter (often the LEDs are driven by a discrete transsitor, in which case look at the its collector, for example). See if you get any signal at all from the non-working keys. If you don't then I would really suspect the membrane. It's a pity you don't have a matrix layout for this keyboard. If entire rows or columns are missing, it could be an electronic fault -- a bad port pin on the microcontroller, or something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 19:27:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:27:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 20, 5 09:58:28 am Message-ID: > Yes, but RAR is better than both of them :-) because neither ZIP nor TAR > contain any form of ECC. Is RAR open ? Can you get an open-source version of it (the second implies the first IMHO, but the first does not imply the second). -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 20 20:22:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 20, 2005 08:38:42 PM Message-ID: <200505210122.j4L1MHke028212@onyx.spiritone.com> > > For the Apple 2 fans...or the MVS fan...or those that hate either one... > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/jmaynard/203754.html > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > Now that is just plain cool!!! Zane From news at computercollector.com Fri May 20 20:50:47 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:50:47 -0400 Subject: Paging: David Greelish Message-ID: <200505210146.j4L1kcp3065566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Are you out there? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From James at jdfogg.com Fri May 20 21:21:35 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 22:21:35 -0400 Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A3E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... > > For the Apple 2 fans...or the MVS fan...or those that hate > either one... > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/jmaynard/203754.html > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org Well, I find something beautiful about this. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri May 20 21:59:55 2005 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 04:59:55 +0200 Subject: VAX LO200 memory board Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking for some info regarding this card : capacity, bus, etc. As far as I remember it's a 4 SBI VAX 780 memory board ? Thanks ps; I'm looking for a "cheap" way to bring books and electronic parts from Houston to Paris, France. Any hint welcome. -- Stephane Paris, France. From mcesari at comcast.net Fri May 20 22:35:32 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:35:32 -0600 Subject: VAX LO200 memory board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 20, 2005, at 8:59 PM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > Hi, > I'm looking for some info regarding this card : capacity, bus, > etc. As far > as I remember it's a 4 SBI VAX 780 memory board ? > Thanks > ps; I'm looking for a "cheap" way to bring books and electronic > parts from > Houston to Paris, France. Any hint welcome. > > -- > Stephane > Paris, France. > This is a 4MB array for a vax8600 (MS86-BA). Mike From fernande at internet1.net Fri May 20 23:00:32 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:00:32 -0400 Subject: AS400 with OS on Ebay Message-ID: <428EB260.40204@internet1.net> I'm not in the market for this, but I thought I'd mention it to the list. It's an AS400 with OS, which would make it pretty rare, I would think. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5199168685&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu May 19 23:07:24 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:07:24 +0200 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <428D0150.90701@bitsavers.org> <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> <20050519214657.GQ2417@lug-owl.de> <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1116562044.16703.2.camel@fortran> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 22:20 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Doesn't this sort of imply that PDF is the wrong choice of format for > jobs like these? (plus I'm pissed at Adobe because their current readr > for Linux eats close on 100MB of disk space just to let me read a PDF > file :-) Well, don't use Adobe's reader, then! GPDF, GV, XPDF, and Evince are just the ones off the top of me head. Evince is the latest one out - and looks very nice. http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince -- Tore S Bekkedal From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 21 03:46:44 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:46:44 +0100 Subject: Anyone in Edinburgh... In-Reply-To: <1116617641.30950.141.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116617641.30950.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <428EF574.8070702@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > ... able to pick up a Sun CPU board for us and get it any further south > at any point? > > I've found someone in Edinburgh who has a replacement Sun 4/330 CPU > board for us, but I don't exactly trust it going through the postal > system :-( 'Spose I'm not very far from Edinbugger > Getting it as far as Newcastle (*waves to Witchy*) or Leeds area by car, > or further south to Bletchley itself / Cambridge / Luton / London would > be rather useful! 'Spose I need to get town to Witchy to pick up that DECWriter I asked him about > Actually, it sounds like there's an entire 4/330 system; we only need > the CPU board - but if this donor one has a framebuffer then I could > cobble together a seperate working 4/330 out of the bits and our broken > 4/330 CPU board... albeit it one with knackered serial ports :) No real > loss if we just get the CPU board and not the rest though... Hm... It would go in the car easily enough. I've got a few days off coming up. Talk to me about it off-list. Gordon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 21 03:57:58 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:57:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available In-Reply-To: "Geoffrey Thomas" "Re: 2 UPS/Alarm batteries available" (May 20, 18:58) References: <200505171753.SAA08657@citadel.metropolis.local> <005201c55d65$8cfe8e20$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <10505210957.ZM16407@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 20 2005, 18:58, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > http://www.homepower.com/files/desulfator.pdf I've built a couple of these, and they do work -- but bear in mind that while they work for sulphated batteries, they won't work for batteries with warped or disintegrating plates, which are other common problems with batteries that have been abused. > Above shows battery revitaliser cct. > Elektor had a more complex cct. in the September 2001 issue. > Don't know how successful it would be with sealed gel batteries. > CPC / Farnell have similar prices to ARD with CPC offering free carriage > with orders over ?30 (ex. vat ) > I think Farnell have free carriage over ?10. > Again no connection with either company, just use them a lot. > > > I have *two* 1kW Smart-UPS units with dead batteries. (And two more > which > > > I am using but the batteries are 'weak'.) > > > > > > Is there any way of rejuvenating sealed lead-acid batteries or is it a > case > > > of once they fail to hold a charge, they are useless? (And if so, does > > > anybody know a very cheap UK supplier of them?) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat May 21 04:32:09 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:32:09 +0100 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <428E75DE.nailF1111HLET@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <003701c55de7$f74d8b50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> V4 and before exists (AFAIK) only on paper > > By the time of V4, most all of the manuals were being > maintained internally in VAX DOCUMENT. It's fairly standard > SGML, although there were some specialized macros used just > for DEC-ish look and feel at the presentation. > ' > Those that weren't VAX DOCUMENT were DSR (Runoff). All true, but I meant that the V4 (an ealier) docs do not exist in electronic format outside of DEC. These days, they may not exist in electronic format _inside_ either :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sat May 21 05:47:45 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:47:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: What does PUSHJ do? In-Reply-To: <200505121541.j4CFfA2L019603@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505121541.j4CFfA2L019603@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2005 Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: What does PUSHJ do? > > From: Johnny Billquist > > Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:30:31 +0200 (CEST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >Not a good example. It should really be JMS FOO, and at the label FOO you > >need to place a 0, which is overwritten by the return address. (What > >assembler do you usually use, btw? Comments come after a slash... :-) ) > > Mindeye. Neumonics to octal on paper usually. My 8 doesn't have any > mass store not even TTY. I plan to take some EEprom and make a RS08 > or other disk equivelent. Ah! That explains it. :-) > >Eh? No. The PDP-8/a don't have any stack IOT. Same set as the 8/e. The > >only difference is how some illegal combinations of OPR instructions act. > > I've used one that did. Might have been a hack. The 6120 however does > and the DEC purchase spec is clear on that too. It's still done with IOTs. Must have been some additional hardware. One brain cell seems to think that DEC maybe sold some hardware to implement stacks on the pdp8, but it might have been the pdp-12 as well. But yes, the 6120 did have IOTs for that. I have several PDP-8/A systems around, but no 6120 systems... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 21 05:57:09 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:57:09 +0200 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <1116673029.13070.3.camel@fortran> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 12:34 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) Begs the question, why aren't there faster/less intuitive text inputs into the cellphone? You'd be amazed at the amazing fingerspeeds my peers achieve on extremely inefficient keyboards... Even morse would work. -- Tore S Bekkedal From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 21 06:31:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:31:29 -0400 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show In-Reply-To: <1116673029.13070.3.camel@fortran> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <1116673029.13070.3.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <428F1C11.nailKU111LL8L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > faster/less intuitive text inputs into the cellphone Morse code has had way over a century to evolve. It has a steep learning curve but after you get over the hump it's second nature. Cellphone text inputs have had only a few years to evolve. I believe that the optimal user interface will look nothing like today's interfaces (except maybe in "newbie doesn't know how to use it yet" mode.) Creeping Featuritis probably will slow the process down. Look at a modern DVD player remote control to see how Featuritis can turn from Creeping to Exploding - most DVD remotes have well over 100 buttons! Tim. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 21 08:21:19 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:21:19 +0200 Subject: OT: He who dies with the most toys... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116681679.13070.8.camel@fortran> On Thu, 2005-05-05 at 18:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Um, Paul Allen wins: > > http://www.monogon.org/other/Octopus.ppt I'm a bit late on this thread - the link now 404s, anyone still have a local copy? If not, what was it all about? TIA -- Tore S Bekkedal From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 21 08:33:11 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:33:11 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 lamp test In-Reply-To: <000901c55bcf$53740f00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <200505180503.j4I53G6s014481@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000901c55bcf$53740f00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1116682391.13070.11.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 18:30 +0100, Jim Beacon wrote: > I guess it was meant for an 11/70 (with LED's on the > console, instead of bulbs). Didn't some late-model 45s come with LEDs? -- Tore S Bekkedal From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat May 21 08:47:14 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:47:14 +0100 Subject: text-messaging versus morse code - Jay Leno show In-Reply-To: <1116673029.13070.3.camel@fortran> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1C8A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <1116673029.13070.3.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <26c11a6405052106476002a111@mail.gmail.com> On 5/21/05, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 12:34 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > > if you want to see the show fragment, here is a URL (8,4 Mb) > Begs the question, why aren't there faster/less intuitive text inputs > into the cellphone? You'd be amazed at the amazing fingerspeeds my peers > achieve on extremely inefficient keyboards... > Even morse would work. > -- > Tore S Bekkedal > > But as I think someone said here before, it didn't take into account the time to actually send the message via the operator, or wether they where using predictive text messaging or not. I would say that morse would be slower if using the predictive text. Dan From starmaster at gmail.com Sat May 21 09:26:47 2005 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 08:26:47 -0600 Subject: Help with MicroVax??? Message-ID: <5736e82505052107265b2889dd@mail.gmail.com> I am about to obtain a MicroVax model 655QS-B2... I was hoping someone could tell me about this machine, and a good source for documentation and/or information...I know it does not have a power cord with it, but don't even know what kind of power cord it takes... If anyone is willing to help me with a few more questions, I would appreciate it, as I am very new to the Classic Computing area (except for some old C-64 and 128 stuff) Thanks From James at jdfogg.com Sat May 21 09:39:28 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:39:28 -0400 Subject: Help with MicroVax??? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A42@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I am about to obtain a MicroVax model 655QS-B2... > I was hoping someone could tell me about this machine, and a > good source for documentation and/or information...I know it > does not have a power cord with it, but don't even know what > kind of power cord it takes... > If anyone is willing to help me with a few more questions, I > would appreciate it, as I am very new to the Classic > Computing area (except for some old C-64 and 128 stuff) Thanks > > >From a google... MV3900 SBB:KA655-AA 16MB 240V Looks like a MicroVax, having a KA655 CPU, 16MB RAM, running on 240V, about 1998 vintage. And a picture... http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1989.html Looks like a nice, reasonably modern fast Vax in a digestable size. But you'll have to do something about the 240V. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat May 21 10:40:49 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:40:49 +0100 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a6405052108407b55ae78@mail.gmail.com> On 5/20/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Now that those of us in the UK are forced to use the new google groups > interface to their archive... > > 1) How do I see how active a group is or what groups exist in a > particular hierarchy? (e.g. I used to be able to stick "comp.sys.sun" > into the search field and it'd show me both that hierarchy and group > activity, which was handy when deciding where to post) > You can type comp.sys.sun* to see the lot. > 2) Are full email addresses available to view by registered users? It > used to handy being able to try and contact someone from x years ago who > had knowledge of something I wanted details on. Now Google seem to be > masking them all though... > You can click on reply to author and it will send a message for you. > I'll send these two to Google themselves of course, but as you US guys > have been stuck with the new interface for months maybe you already have > answers... > > 3) Is anyone else archiving usenet or do Google have sole control? > Don't know > cheers > > Jules > > Dan From James at jdfogg.com Sat May 21 10:47:31 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:47:31 -0400 Subject: Help with MicroVax??? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A43@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Looks like a MicroVax, having a KA655 CPU, 16MB RAM, running > on 240V, about 1998 vintage. Sorry, dislexia or typing syndrome struck. It about 1989 vintage. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 21 11:20:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:20:03 -0400 Subject: What does PUSHJ do? Message-ID: <0IGU00KDNLB8PFVC@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: What does PUSHJ do? > From: Johnny Billquist > Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:47:45 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Ah! That explains it. :-) I do have a PCdos compatable asm that is pretty neat but for little stuff the eyeball does it fast enough. ;) One day when time permits a RS08 equivelent will be made for the 8f and I'll start running real software. >> I've used one that did. Might have been a hack. The 6120 however does >> and the DEC purchase spec is clear on that too. It's still done with IOTs. > >Must have been some additional hardware. One brain cell seems to think >that DEC maybe sold some hardware to implement stacks on the pdp8, but it >might have been the pdp-12 as well. >But yes, the 6120 did have IOTs for that. > >I have several PDP-8/A systems around, but no 6120 systems... I have no PDP-8a. I do have three 6120 based systems, two DECmateIII and a homebrew using the chip. The 6120 is the second generation of the 6100 PDP-8 in CMOS. It adds EMA and stacks via IOTs in hardware. Runs OS/278 flavor of OS/8 well enough. Allison From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat May 21 11:44:36 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:44:36 -0700 Subject: Loading dock south of Boston? Message-ID: <428F0304.19456.16B3FE1@localhost> Hi Folks, Does anyone know of a loading dock that Norm Aleks and I could use for a few hours next Thursday? We're doing a computer rescue and will be able to save significant shipping bucks if we can UHaul the stuff to a loading dock and wait with it for pickup by a common carrier. We're looking for something southwest of Boston, Norwood area. Could you email directly if you have any idea? We'd much appreciate it. Thanks Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 21 11:44:05 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:44:05 +0200 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <0IFI00LJMJPNFBQ1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFI00LJMJPNFBQ1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1116693845.13070.28.camel@fortran> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: > Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores > be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of > that. Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one hypothetically make a core store today, using those cores? Has anyone done this? Do the current-day cores have better properties for use as memory than the ones used in past-day cores? Forgive me if this is a stupid question. -- Tore S Bekkedal From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat May 21 11:50:00 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:50:00 +0200 Subject: Morse Code vs. text messaging, who's faster? In-Reply-To: <200505141941.j4EJfbu8051713@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505141941.j4EJfbu8051713@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1116694200.13070.34.camel@fortran> On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 15:42 -0400, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > The "contest" was ridiculous. The guys doing Morse Code had a direct > connection to each other, with what appeared to be ordinary wireless > computer routers. Huh? Do you mean... "radios"? > The kids doing text messaging were just using their cell > phones, which means the signal had to travel through the theater walls, onto > the cloud, and back into the theater. Yes, a process which takes about 200ms in good conditions in Oslo, Norway, the worst I've ever experienced was 2 seconds. > The contest was billed as "who is the > fastest messager" but that's just silly because obviously the kids cannot > control what the phone companies do. Well, that was part of it - they wanted to try and see what technology could get the message from A to B quickest - and morse code won. -- Tore S Bekkedal From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 21 12:28:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:28:14 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IGU0002BOGV8K46@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: Tore S Bekkedal > Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:44:05 +0200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: >> Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores >> be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of >> that. >Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one No, their characteristics are all wrong. The Cores I refer to are large by a fact or 15 to as much as 100 time that of cores used for memories. >hypothetically make a core store today, using those cores? Has anyone >done this? Do the current-day cores have better properties for use as >memory than the ones used in past-day cores? The past day cores were very optimized material and have not seen any improvement. As to making a corestore today it's still possible but the small cores needed to attain a 1-2uS cycles time are not common. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 21 13:03:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:03:45 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102134.0522ca30@mail> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050519215934.301a809c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1116588081.30967.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <428DFB14.4060209@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050520102134.0522ca30@mail> Message-ID: <428F7801.6020201@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > Phil's pickled and molding in the grave and the world turns. There's old > 'pkzip', there's WinZip (commercial software with undocumented but perhaps > rarely used extensions), there's 'infozip' open source'd, there's Zip > extraction in Windows XP... there's plenty of standards to choose from. :-) WinZip has a Zip64 extension -- all three others you mentioned use exactly the same file format -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 21 13:50:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:50:12 +0000 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... Message-ID: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Dan Williams chucked us an Indigo2 the other week amongst a load of DEC stuff - I've only just had chance to take a look at it, although I've brought it home for the week to fiddle with :) Initial questions: How to I tell what IMPACT video board it has? (Other than powering it up I suppose, but I'm going to be giving it a good clean inside first...) Anyone have the SCSI connector pinouts? The machine has no drive sleds, so I need to improvise something (I gather it's not compatible with SCA, despite being the same physical connectors). Worst case I could run it from an external disk I suppose. Any special flavour of memory the machine needs? I've got a bucket of 72 pin SIMMs of various types kicking around, so I'm sure I'll have something that'll work... ... that'll do for now :) Once I've checked the machine over and made sure it looks like it'll work I'll worry about install media (I've got IRIX CDs - just a question whether they support the R8k / R10k CPU in this machine) cheers Jules From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 21 14:12:44 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:12:44 +0200 Subject: Help with MicroVax??? In-Reply-To: <5736e82505052107265b2889dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e82505052107265b2889dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050521211244.65de7b05.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 21 May 2005 08:26:47 -0600 Star Master wrote: > I am about to obtain a MicroVax model 655QS-B2... This is no "standard" MicroVAX designation. It indicates a KA655 QBus CPU. This is nice, as it is tne 2nd fastest QBus CPU available. This CPU was used in MicroVAX III+, 3600 and 3900. Sometimes it can be found as an upgarde in MicroVAX II, III, 3500 or 3800 systems. So most likely you will get a BA23 or BA123 or BA213 or BA215 enclosure. Use google to get more information about this enclosures. > I know it does not have a power cord with it, but don't even know what > kind of power cord it takes... I think all this enclosures are switchable from 120 V to 240 V. BA23 and BA123 use "standard" power cords, BA213 and BA215 need a different cord. The connector looks like a normal "standard" connector, but it has a notch. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 21 14:38:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:38:50 -0400 Subject: Report from Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: With so many things going on around the house, I was only able to really do Friday of the Hamvention this year. Even so, it was a good day, even if I wasn't able to find much of what I went shopping for. Among my better buys were: o A Verbatim 8" cleaning diskette with four 10-packs of moist diskettes plus a 8" library case for $3. o A Heathkit 5017-based clock with incandescent filament 7-segment displays for $5. o Enough laptop parts to build a spare for my daily-drive machine (OT) for $30. o Box of 10 Leviton designer X-10 wall switches for $40. o Cisco 1900 managed 10BaseT hub for $8. o Spare cell phone with batteries, charger, etc. for $5 (mine has a design defect that requires repair/replacement of the phone from wire damage at the hinge - on my 3rd body in 5 years). o ISA card with large prototyping space bolted on for $3. o P120 sub-notebook w/BSD to be used for GPS head w/Orinoco Gold WiFi card for $40. o Industrial GPS (bulkhead mount) with 2m lead to amplified antenna for $25. o Tube of PIC 16C54s for $2. I saw much less Sun gear than two years ago, only a couple of Sparc5s, and a few disks and Sbus cards virtually no DEC gear, not even Alpha (the bed of Dan Cohoe's truck notwithstanding). A few collectible micros (Timex 1000, C-64 with all the goodies, Atari 800...), with one guy having the pick of the litter - a Rockwell AIM-65 w/dual 8" floppies (asking $500) and an Altair 8800b (turnkey frontpanel) with 2 matching 8" floppy cabinets and docs (asking $1000). I was really disappointed at the sparseness of component vendors. There were a few there, but nothing like days past. I was unable to locate a variety of chips and switches that were explicitly on my shopping list of parts for my Elf 2000, Real Console, SBC65C02, etc. The weather was threatening rain at various points, but it did little more than mist briefly, not even enough to have people close down. The drive was incredibly foggy at 06:30, but cleared up by mid-morning. Today looks gorgeous, with partly cloudy skies and temps in the mid-70s. Tomorrow should be nice in the morning, turning to rain as people go to leave. The other thing that struck me was the number of empty flea market spaces... in some cases, near the back, it was well over 60% in a given area. Even on the dense side of the main aisle it wasn't entirely full. I don't know if the looming clouds played a part, but perhaps some Saturday-only folks may show up today to sell. I'd heard that flea market space prices had jumped, so perhaps the market is responding to the increase, or perhaps not as many people are willing to gas up the truck to make the long trek. Either way, attendance seemed to be good; the local news reported 30,000 attendees (no doubt based on reported ticket sales), and was touting the $10M being spread around by the Hams, much at local lodging and eating establishments. Since I am less than 90 minutes away, it's still worth it for me. I did get to meet a variety of people face to face from the list here. Dan Cohoe's spot made a good place to cycle through to see who had paused at the pile of CDC disk packs that Dan was using as bait to snag mini-computer mavens who might have stuff squirreled away in corners. Our planned meetup at the Rib Spot was a success, with several classiccmp regulars and a few lurkers in attendance. Should have thought to have gotten a group photo, but I was too tired to think of it, and I'd left my camera at home in any case. Something to remember for next time. So in short, I found a few bargains here and there, with some people willing to accept a bit below their asking prices, and some resolute and firm, but that's to be expected on the opening day... Sunday is always bargain day, especially on wet years, which this looks not to be. -ethan P.S. - one fun moment was peering into a digital data recorder/logger that Dan Cohoe had brought to sell and identifying the IM6100 processor and the 12-bit-wide bank of SRAM inside, c. 1979. I had expected an ordinary 8-bit micro like a 6800 or Z-80, and was surprised to find something off the wall. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat May 21 14:38:28 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Can only help with one of these, really: On Sat, 21 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > How to I tell what IMPACT video board it has? (Other than powering it up > I suppose, but I'm going to be giving it a good clean inside first...) Solid Impact takes up one bus slot, High Impact takes up two slots and Max Impact takes up three slots. Easy, no? In theory you're only supposed to be able to dual-head with a Max and a Solid (as SGI shipped them, with the uprated PSU), but I have two Solid Impact cards in one machine and dual head fine. Anyways; Good luck with the others :) JP From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 21 14:37:05 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:37:05 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 21 May 2005 18:50:12 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > How to I tell what IMPACT video board it has? (Other than powering it > up I suppose, but I'm going to be giving it a good clean inside > first...) IIRC: Solid IMAPCT is one board, High IMPACT (== Solid IMAPCT with texture memory) are two boards and MAX IMAPCT (== High IMPACT with twice as much Geometry Engines and Raster Managers) are three boards. Power up machine, abort boot (press ESC or click with mouse), go to the cammand prompt (press 5 or click Icon) and type the command "hinv". This will give you a Hardware INVentory. > Anyone have the SCSI connector pinouts? The machine has no drive > sleds, GOTO ePay GET( "DriveSleds") If this fails use an external disk / CDROM / ... The connectors are, as you expected, not SCA. Don't waste time to replicate the drive sleds. BTW: Internal and external SCSI bus are two independent busses with separte host adapters. > Any special flavour of memory the machine needs? PS/2 FPM parity SIMMs, four per bank, max. 768 MB RAM total. (1 GB with tricks) > ... that'll do for now :) Once I've checked the machine over and made > sure it looks like it'll work I'll worry about install media (I've got > IRIX CDs - just a question whether they support the R8k / R10k CPU in > this machine) There where IRIX media specialized for certain platforms but this is written on the installation media. If the is nothing written on the media you can expect that they support all platforms that the given release supported. Try to get IRIX 6.5.20m. This is the latest version that officially supports this machine. BTW: I am typing this on an Indigo2 R10k Solid IMPACT. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 21 15:18:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:18:13 +0000 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 21:37 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 21 May 2005 18:50:12 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > How to I tell what IMPACT video board it has? (Other than powering it > > up I suppose, but I'm going to be giving it a good clean inside > > first...) > IIRC: Solid IMAPCT is one board, High IMPACT (== Solid IMAPCT with > texture memory) are two boards and MAX IMAPCT (== High IMPACT with twice > as much Geometry Engines and Raster Managers) are three boards. Rats, just a standard Solid IMPACT then. Still, it's still the fastest SGI we've got at present... > Power up machine, abort boot (press ESC or click with mouse), go to the > cammand prompt (press 5 or click Icon) and type the command "hinv". This > will give you a Hardware INVentory. Yep... gotta wait for various bits to dry out for a few days first before I can do that though :) The machine was half full of dust, so I've stripped it and dusted off some bits / washed others. > > Anyone have the SCSI connector pinouts? The machine has no drive > > sleds, > GOTO ePay > GET( "DriveSleds") Yes, I did wonder... :/ I *could* scavenge some old SCA connectors from dead SCA drives though and build some sort of adapter. Or, better still, replace the whole internal bus with a normal cable and power sockets - I just need pinouts of the system board SCSI connector then... > If this fails use an external disk / CDROM / ... > BTW: Internal and external SCSI bus are two independent busses with > separte host adapters. Ahh, I had thought about that. I wasn't sure if it was dual channel - and if it was, whether it'd boot from a device on the second channel (mind you I suppose it has to in order to boot from an external CDROM). Still, that's probably the way to go at least to see if it all works... > > Any special flavour of memory the machine needs? > PS/2 FPM parity SIMMs, four per bank, max. 768 MB RAM total. (1 GB with > tricks) Aha ok. I think the biggest SIMMS I have are 16MB, but not sure if they're parity. Still, there are a bazillion SIMM sockets on the board so even if I just fill it out with 4MB modules or something that'd still be enough for starters :) > There where IRIX media specialized for certain platforms but this is > written on the installation media. If the is nothing written on the > media you can expect that they support all platforms that the given > release supported. Try to get IRIX 6.5.20m. This is the latest version > that officially supports this machine. Can't remember what I've got now TBH. I don't think it's as recent as 6.5.x though - likely it's 5.3 (I've used it to install on both Indys and Indigos so it's certainly multi-platform... whether that's too old to work with the Indigo2 though is another matter...) > BTW: I am typing this on an Indigo2 R10k Solid IMPACT. :-) Heh... nice machines by the sounds of it. Certainly the good ol' Indy's still pretty capable, so an Indigo2 can't really be any worse :) cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Sat May 21 15:48:28 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:48:28 -0400 Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... References: Message-ID: <00fa01c55e46$71a222e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > For the Apple 2 fans...or the MVS fan...or those that hate either one... > http://www.livejournal.com/users/jmaynard/203754.html I'm happy that the person didn't butcher the '2 to put the simulator inside it. Such things are coming. See what happened to the lowly 2600 console in the latest 'Make' magazine. John A. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 21 16:20:07 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 23:20:07 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 21 May 2005 20:18:13 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Yes, I did wonder... :/ I *could* scavenge some old SCA connectors > from dead SCA drives though and build some sort of adapter. Or, better > still, replace the whole internal bus with a normal cable and power > sockets - I just need pinouts of the system board SCSI connector > then... Don't waste your time with this. Get a drive sled from epay or a an other list menber or ... It costs much less then your time is worth that you will need for this hack. And it will work much better. > Ahh, I had thought about that. I wasn't sure if it was dual channel - > and if it was, whether it'd boot from a device on the second channel > (mind you I suppose it has to in order to boot from an external > CDROM). I used external CDROMs on Indigo2s for instalation. Maybe it needs to be on a special SCSI ID. (Start with 3, that is the standard ID of the internal CDROM, don't use 0, that is the bus adapter itself.) > Aha ok. I think the biggest SIMMS I have are 16MB, but not sure if > they're parity. Still, there are a bazillion SIMM sockets on the board > so even if I just fill it out with 4MB modules or something that'd > still be enough for starters :) There are 12 sockets / 3 banks. Get at least 16 MB SIMMs. You will be able to use as less as 64 MB, but that is not much fun. 128 MB is barely enough, 192 is OK if you don't use memory eaters. I have 758 MB in my Indigo2 IMPACT. :-) > Can't remember what I've got now TBH. I don't think it's as recent as > 6.5.x though - likely it's 5.3 (I've used it to install on both Indys > and Indigos so it's certainly multi-platform... whether that's too old > to work with the Indigo2 though is another matter...) 5.3 may work. It is OK, but try to get 6.5.20 if you really wane use the machine. A 6.5 base set is OK, updates to newer versions, i.e. "Overlays" in SGI terminology, are donloadable from SGI. There is a lot of ready to install http://freeware.sgi.com/ but that requires 6.5.x... > > BTW: I am typing this on an Indigo2 R10k Solid IMPACT. :-) > Heh... nice machines by the sounds of it. Certainly the good ol' > Indy's still pretty capable, so an Indigo2 can't really be any worse > :) Well Octanes are getting cheap as dirt. Even 400 MHz R12k machines are down to less then 100 EUR (100 US$). Beleve me: Even with the same CPU (175 and 195 MHz R10k) and similar GFX (IMPACT == SI) an Octane will outperform a Indigo2. The Octane features much higher bandwiths in all aspects of a system. My main workstation is an Octane R12k 300 MHz, ESSI + ESI dual head, 2 GB RAM, 36 GB disk, DLT, CD-RW, ... I do everything on that machine. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mokuba at gmail.com Sat May 21 18:53:55 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:53:55 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64, TS1000, and Apple ][e software transfer Message-ID: I'm about to acquire an Apple //e with two DISK ]['s, a TS1000, and I currently have a C64. I've got a tape drive for the c64 and i believe ordinary tape decks work for the other two, also i've got floppy on the c and the apple. Now comes the sticky part... Having/getting these systems, How am I going to transfer software to them?! Currently, I have a semi-broken (lever broke, have to use pliers to close it) 5.25 pc drive, and possibly some 5.25 floppies if i dig around These systems are fun to play with, but without any kind of software other then rom software, it's getting kind of boring... Really would love to have pointers to ways to transfer over software to them! Gary Sparkes KB3HAG - FM19tm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 18:31:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:31:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <1116693845.13070.28.camel@fortran> from "Tore S Bekkedal" at May 21, 5 06:44:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: > > Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores > > be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of > > that. > Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one I would hope not!. To make a core memory you need a magneitcally hard material that will stay magnetised. But for a transformer or inductor, you want a soft (magneticaly) material. -tony From mokuba at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:07:48 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:07:48 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP Message-ID: <0F898A98-17AB-4277-8CE1-511CE6829C4E@gmail.com> My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle of playing the lemonade stand simulation too :/ My 1541 and 1530 still operate perfectly though! Any chance I could get a rom chip off anyone? I'm told it's either the BASIC rom or Kernel ROM My classic computer collection just got knocked back to nothing :/ From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sat May 21 20:16:03 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:16:03 -0700 Subject: Looking For Advice On Apple II Stuff Message-ID: <428FDD53.5070001@ix.netcom.com> I've been getting more stuff ready for eBay. Today, I opened a box of Apple II books and software. The box seems to be one I packed in 1986 when I moved to California. I have no idea if this stuff is worth the effort to list it and then have to handle it. Could someone on the list give me some advice? If I send you a list of what is there, could you tell me whether it's worth the trouble? Please reply off list to: bpettit at ix.netcom.com Thanks for your help, Billy From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 21 20:18:59 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <0F898A98-17AB-4277-8CE1-511CE6829C4E@gmail.com> from "Gary Sparkes Jr." at "May 21, 5 09:07:48 pm" Message-ID: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> > My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle > of playing the lemonade stand simulation too :/ > My 1541 and 1530 still operate perfectly though! > Any chance I could get a rom chip off anyone? > I'm told it's either the BASIC rom or Kernel ROM How do you know it's this chip, specifically? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I would blame Microsoft even if it *weren't* their fault." -- me ---------- From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sat May 21 20:23:35 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:23:35 -0700 Subject: Dyson Interrogator Message-ID: <428FDF17.6070206@ix.netcom.com> While sorting stuff today, I came across the Dyson software for testing floppies. We used to use this for testing many of the early full size and half height 5 1/4 floppies. Dated 1985, 5 disks and manual in a plastic wallet binder. I was going to put it up on eBay but realised that maybe someone on the list would get more benefit from it. Would rather see it go to a good home than make a dollar or two from it. Let me know. Billy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 21 20:24:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> References: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200505220125.VAA16457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle of playing >> the lemonade stand simulation too :/ > How do you know it's this chip, specifically? Because that's what's printed on the top, of course! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cfandt at netsync.net Sat May 21 20:27:33 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:27:33 -0400 Subject: Report from Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050521210917.02fc7518@mail.netsync.net> One of the folks on the Milsurplus List (folks who collect and restore early military radio, radar, and navigation gear) gave his report of the Hamvention for today (Saturday) copied as follows. Should be an interesting follow-up to Ethan's Friday report: Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:28:32 -0400 From: "Ray Fantini" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Guinevere: 2.0.15 ; Salisbury University Subject: [Milsurplus] Dayton Weather was much improved today, temperature in the mid seventies and clear sky's with lots of sunshine. Do not know why but attendance was about the same as yesterday, not the big crowds that I have seen in the past on Saturday. Amount of sellers was same as yesterdays, did not notice any new sellers. Some additional price information. Saw couple ARC-5 transmitters, one covering 40 and the other on 80, both $60 each, -- snip rest of OT msg portion -- Looks like today was a great day, weather-wise, to be there. Wish I could have went :-( My uncle lives over in Xenia (free place to stay ~15 miles away), but I'm stuck here with schoolwork to do :-\ Upon the date 15:38 21-05-05, Ethan Dicks said something like: >With so many things going on around the house, I was only able to >really do Friday of the Hamvention this year. Even so, it was a good >day, even if I wasn't able to find much of what I went shopping for. >Among my better buys were: -- snip list of goodies scored, list of sightings, and weather report -- >The other thing that struck me was the number of empty flea market >spaces... in some cases, near the back, it was well over 60% in a >given area. Even on the dense side of the main aisle it wasn't >entirely full. I don't know if the looming clouds played a part, but >perhaps some Saturday-only folks may show up today to sell. I'd heard >that flea market space prices had jumped, so perhaps the market is >responding to the increase, or perhaps not as many people are willing >to gas up the truck to make the long trek. Either way, attendance >seemed to be good; the local news reported 30,000 attendees (no doubt >based on reported ticket sales), and was touting the $10M being spread >around by the Hams, much at local lodging and eating establishments. Looks like many of the Saturday-only folks did not show up anyway according to Ray's report. Cost of gas and higher flea market spaces probably killed some of the vendor attendance for coming just only a day or two. -Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 21 20:33:12 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <200505220125.VAA16457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "May 21, 5 09:24:40 pm" Message-ID: <200505220133.SAA13224@floodgap.com> > > > My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle of playing > > > the lemonade stand simulation too :/ > > How do you know it's this chip, specifically? > Because that's what's printed on the top, of course! Very funny. :-P But he didn't say anything about the symptoms that led him to that chip, specifically. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Funny, I don't remember being absent minded. ------------------------------- From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sat May 21 20:37:00 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:37:00 -0700 Subject: Application Notes Message-ID: <428FE23C.2050809@ix.netcom.com> It was mentioned recently that App Notes are more useful than data sheets. I agree and have been digging to find some. Since there was a discussion on this earlier, I started with floppy data notes. First two are from CDC and are for using the WD 1793 and NEC 765 chips to interface floppies. Includes a lot of wave shapes and notes on the data separater and PLO. I loaned them to Al K. to scan and put up on his site. He is pretty loaded down right now so give him plenty of time to process. I found the AMD bit slice App Notes but found someobdy had already put them up on the internet. So into the eBay box they go. I found a couple more on the old cartridge drives from CDC. I don't know if these are worth the effort to copy - the drives are long gone. Any opinions? I also loaned him two of the Kludge Komputer Kompany articles from Datamation. They showed up on this list recently too. And I'm certain they will be enjoyed by those who haven't seen them before. Billy From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sat May 21 20:42:07 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:42:07 -0700 Subject: Dyson Interrogator Message-ID: <428FE36F.9080101@ix.netcom.com> Cameron Kaiser asked: > > What does this run on, or is it a stand-alone unit? > > It was an early stand alone floppy diagnostic. Ran on PC compatible systems like the XT. We used it a lot to sort out and test Line Integraton failures. Billy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat May 21 20:39:51 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <200505220133.SAA13224@floodgap.com> References: <200505220133.SAA13224@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200505220144.VAA16554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, >>> How do you know it's this chip, specifically? >> Because that's what's printed on the top, of course! > Very funny. :-P > But he didn't say anything about the symptoms that led him to that > chip, specifically. Yes...which is why I thought perhaps I could provoke a few grins by missing the point with a totally deadpan but completely ridiculous response. I debated putting a :) on there, but it seemed to me the funnier the more deadpan, and (especially in this crowd) I didn't really expect anyone to seriously take that as a believed-to-be-helpful answer to the question it was in response to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mokuba at gmail.com Sat May 21 20:49:12 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:49:12 -0400 Subject: C64 rom issue addendum Message-ID: <87CC408A-C5DC-4859-A5B9-5FB8C9016C86@gmail.com> In reference to my previous email, a C128 wouldn't be turned down either :) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 21 22:37:05 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:37:05 -0700 Subject: Application Notes Message-ID: <302f9187b80bb2356e73858f68031206@bitsavers.org> I found a couple more on the old cartridge drives from CDC. I don't know if these are worth the effort to copy - the drives are long gone. Any opinions? -- If someone should turn up an old drive to recover data with, the more docs that can be found the better. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sat May 21 22:40:19 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 23:40:19 EDT Subject: apple.Asimov images Message-ID: <145.45c250fc.2fc15923@aol.com> I seem to be running into a similar thing to what everyone else ran into, namely that ftp.apple.asimov.net doesn't seem to be set up to enable easy downloads of large #s of files. If anyone is still interested, i have ~100 MB of apple.asimov, not sure how old it is (doesn't have any of the large uncategorized directories). Possibly someone with more bandwidth could contact them about becoming a "MailNet" mirror "server". Scott Quinn From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 22 02:11:23 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:11:23 -0700 Subject: apple.Asimov images In-Reply-To: <145.45c250fc.2fc15923@aol.com> References: <145.45c250fc.2fc15923@aol.com> Message-ID: >I seem to be running into a similar thing to what everyone else ran into, >namely that ftp.apple.asimov.net doesn't seem to be set up to enable easy >downloads of large #s of files. I don't really understand why people are having problems with this. Have these same people tried something like running wget against Asimov? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 22 05:04:17 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:04:17 +0100 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: >> >>>Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores >>>be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of >>>that. >> >>Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one > > > I would hope not!. To make a core memory you need a magneitcally hard > material that will stay magnetised. But for a transformer or inductor, > you want a soft (magneticaly) material. > > -tony What about a small steel ring, or washer? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun May 22 05:05:47 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:05:47 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> References: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4290597B.20804@gjcp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle >> of playing the lemonade stand simulation too :/ >>My 1541 and 1530 still operate perfectly though! >>Any chance I could get a rom chip off anyone? >>I'm told it's either the BASIC rom or Kernel ROM > > > How do you know it's this chip, specifically? > From past experience with these bloody awful contraptions, it's because that's the chip he's currently cooking his breakfast on... Gordon. From stuart at zen.co.uk Sun May 22 06:15:29 2005 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (stu) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:15:29 +0100 Subject: uk - help wanted with supply of 4164 RAM References: <428D0FDA.3000604@bitsavers.org> <003b01c55d60$46fa4ea0$0e92d6d1@randy> Message-ID: <000a01c55ebf$8fbdeb00$4abd4552@dimension4700> Hi everyone, Can someone in the UK help me find a source of 4164 RAM, new or used is fine. Thanks, Stu From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 22 08:29:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:29:33 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IGW00ANB84FS3O8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:04:17 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Tony Duell wrote: >>>On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: >>> >>>>Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores >>>>be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of >>>>that. >>> >>>Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one >> >> >> I would hope not!. To make a core memory you need a magneitcally hard >> material that will stay magnetised. But for a transformer or inductor, >> you want a soft (magneticaly) material. >> >> -tony > >What about a small steel ring, or washer? > >Gordon. You would need a large amount of curent, in amps possibly 10s of amps for that. Volume of material counts. Oh, they would be very slow. Allison From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 22 09:51:47 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 07:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <0IGW00ANB84FS3O8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IGW00ANB84FS3O8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2005, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: small valves >> From: Gordon JC Pearce >> Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:04:17 +0100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores >>>>> be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of >>>>> that. >>>> >>>> Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Ie. could one >>> >>> >>> I would hope not!. To make a core memory you need a magneitcally hard >>> material that will stay magnetised. But for a transformer or inductor, >>> you want a soft (magneticaly) material. >>> >>> -tony >> >> What about a small steel ring, or washer? >> >> Gordon. > > You would need a large amount of curent, in amps possibly 10s of amps > for that. Volume of material counts. Oh, they would be very slow. > > > Allison > If its just for a demo, you could reduce the current (and the speed) by using multiple turns in the core... Peter Wallace From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun May 22 12:38:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:38:43 -0400 Subject: small valves References: <0IFI00LJMJPNFBQ1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <1116693845.13070.28.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <17040.50083.423847.11945@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tore" == Tore S Bekkedal writes: Tore> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:39 -0400, Allison wrote: >> Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores be they >> EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of that. Tore> Are these cores suitable for use in making data memories? Tore> Ie. could one hypothetically make a core store today, using Tore> those cores? Has anyone done this? Do the current-day cores Tore> have better properties for use as memory than the ones used in Tore> past-day cores? Tore> Forgive me if this is a stupid question. Not a stupid question at all. No, those cores are not suitable for core memories. The issue is the "hysteresis curve" -- which shows the magnetization of the core as a function of the applied field, or something along those lines. Cores used for transformers have hysteresis curves that are very nearly a straight line. Cores for memory have a curve that looks more like a rectangle. The difference tells you whether the material remains magnetized after the applied field goes away. For transformers you want that NOT to be the case. For memory cores, you do. So the material is more like something you'd use to make permanent magnets. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 22 14:02:18 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <51292.71.129.198.222.1116788538.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Grodon asks about making core memory: > What about a small steel ring, or washer? There was a construction article in one of the electronics magazines a few years ago about making a one-bit core memory using a steel hex nut. It takes a lot more energy to flip the magnetization of a steel hex nut than a "proper" magnetic core, so it's not very practical. Eric From mail at g-lenerz.de Sun May 22 14:57:44 2005 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:57:44 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1445646744.20050522215744@g-lenerz.de> Saturday, May 21, 2005, 11:20:07 PM, you wrote: [hacking a sled] > Don't waste your time with this. Get a drive sled from epay or a an > other list menber or ... It costs much less then your time is worth that > you will need for this hack. And it will work much better. ACK, or just use an external harddrive until you find a real sled somewhere. > I used external CDROMs on Indigo2s for instalation. Maybe it needs to be > on a special SCSI ID. (Start with 3, that is the standard ID of the > internal CDROM, don't use 0, that is the bus adapter itself.) Nope, I've never come across another rule as "leave the ID of the controller alone". The only difference here is that the controller is on #0. > There are 12 sockets / 3 banks. Get at least 16 MB SIMMs. You will be > able to use as less as 64 MB, but that is not much fun. 128 MB is barely > enough, 192 is OK if you don't use memory eaters. I have 758 MB in my > Indigo2 IMPACT. :-) 128MB is ok for starters in my book, reasonable amounts start around 256MB if you want to use more complex applications. > 5.3 may work. It is OK, but try to get 6.5.20 if you really wane use the > machine. The basic 5.3 isn't intended for Impact machines, neither does it work with R10000 machines. At least for Impact Indigo 2 there is "IRIX 5.3 for Indigo 2 Impact" (part# 812-0119-009). >> Heh... nice machines by the sounds of it. Certainly the good ol' >> Indy's still pretty capable, so an Indigo2 can't really be any worse >> :) > Well Octanes are getting cheap as dirt. I personally have 1 Indigo 2 R10000/195 with High Impact graphics and one Dual R10000/195 Octane and I usually use the Indigo because it is much more friendly to my ears. Ok, now after I've moved the Octane is resting on the other end of the room and the noise has reached "not *that* bad" level, but whenever I think along that line I think of how the I2 noise would just disappear in the large room if I'd only move it to the other end. > Even 400 MHz R12k machines are down to less then 100 EUR (100 US$). Not always true. > Beleve me: Even with the same CPU (175 and 195 MHz R10k) and similar > GFX (IMPACT == SI) an Octane will outperform a Indigo2. Sure. The question remains if you run applications that make use of that. Hell, I've been running some GTK1 applications (Gimp, Sylpheed, etc.) on a 4D/420 (Dual 40 MHz R3000 with IRIX 5.3) with a performance that was ok in my book. Of course *none* of these apps did make real use of the second CPU aside from scheduling on OS level in the sense that Sylpheed isn't bothered very much by the Gimp filtering on the other CPU. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 22 16:08:17 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 23:08:17 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <1445646744.20050522215744@g-lenerz.de> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1445646744.20050522215744@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <20050522230817.1e93c676.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 May 2005 21:57:44 +0200 Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > I used external CDROMs on Indigo2s for instalation. Maybe it needs > > to be on a special SCSI ID. (Start with 3, that is the standard ID > > of the internal CDROM, don't use 0, that is the bus adapter itself.) > Nope, I've never come across another rule as "leave the ID of the > controller alone". Ahh, OK. So the PROM is smart enough to use the first CDROM available. > The basic 5.3 isn't intended for Impact machines, neither does it work > with R10000 machines. At least for Impact Indigo 2 there is "IRIX 5.3 > for Indigo 2 Impact" (part# 812-0119-009). Good to know. I have no closer experience with IRIX prior to 6.5. > I personally have 1 Indigo 2 R10000/195 with High Impact graphics and > one Dual R10000/195 Octane and I usually use the Indigo because it is > much more friendly to my ears. He. I have all my machines in an extra room and use long extension cables for K/V/M to get the console into the living room. So I don't care about noise. :-) It will be interresting to hear how much noise the O2 and the Origin 200 generate that I will get next weekend. I suspect that the O2 is not that loud, but the Origin 200... > > Even 400 MHz R12k machines are down to less then 100 EUR (100 US$). > Not always true. Sure. You have to be lucky and you can't expect more then SI / ESI GFX. But R10k / SI Octanes are really down below 100,- EUR. > Sure. The question remains if you run applications that make use of > that. Firefox / Mozilla... Cross building NetBSD. Viewing bloated PDFs. ... > Hell, I've been running some GTK1 applications (Gimp, Sylpheed, > etc.) on a 4D/420 (Dual 40 MHz R3000 with IRIX 5.3) with a performance > that was ok in my book. I also used a 150 MHz (later 200 MHz) Indigo2 Extreme and there is still a R4k4 Indy on my desk... I played a bit with IRIX 3.3 on a PI4D35... Not to speak about all that non-SGI stuff, including VAXen that are much slower then a 40 MHz R3k... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun May 22 16:10:53 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:10:53 -0700 Subject: apple.Asimov images In-Reply-To: References: <145.45c250fc.2fc15923@aol.com> Message-ID: <200505221410.53846.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 22 May 2005 00:11, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I seem to be running into a similar thing to what everyone else ran into, > >namely that ftp.apple.asimov.net doesn't seem to be set up to enable easy > >downloads of large #s of files. > > I don't really understand why people are having problems with this. > Have these same people tried something like running wget against > Asimov? > > Zane Zane is correct - I had absolutely NO problem using "wget" to retrieve files from ftp.apple.asimov.net. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 22 16:27:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:27:44 +0000 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <20050522230817.1e93c676.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1445646744.20050522215744@g-lenerz.de> <20050522230817.1e93c676.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1116797264.1353.68.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 23:08 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > It will be interresting to hear how much noise the O2 and the Origin 200 > generate that I will get next weekend. I suspect that the O2 is not that > loud, but the Origin 200... I've done a few projects on O200s a few years ago; I don't remember them being that loud. We had two in a failsafe config with a pair of disk vaults, and even that wasn't too bad. Remember I'm talking about a museum regarding the Indigo2, so we unfortunately don't have funds to go buying heaps of memory or anything for it :( We're lucky to have a few Indys and the like as it is :) cheers Jules From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun May 22 16:58:24 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:58:24 EDT Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions Message-ID: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> IRIX versions for SGIs can be a pain. The easiest recommendation is as follows For Indigo2 forget 5.3 unless you're running a minimum system. There are many many different versions for specific hardware and they are hard to get a hold of the right one. Doesn't run at all on anything other than IP22 (R4400) on the I2, not POSIX complient so you'll have trouble building your own S/W. For most Indigo2s what you want is IRIX 6.2- fast, POSIX/Y2k complient (when patched) and smallish. It also has 64-bit XFS. You want at least 64 MB. For Indigo2 R10000 you need a special release (th only one for 6.2), IRIX 6.2 with Indigo2 IMPACT 10000 (this release will run on all Indigo2s and Indys, can't remember about Indigo R4ks, but NOT any big system.) Forget about 6.3&6.4, these are HW specific for O2 and Octane/Onyx2/Origins. 6.0 and 6.1 likewise, buggy and only for the R8000. Fast R4400 and R10000 systems probably benefit from IRIX 6.5.x, any version will run on them (I've heard that 6.5.14 and 6.5.22 are the best, I run .22, last version for pre O2/Octane equipment.) .22 seems faster than .17 to me. Disadvantage - somewhat pricey on the "grey market" (bought seperate from a system). You will want more than 128 MB of RAM, though. They will boot from any disk (default is system disk: ID1, CDROM id#3, but they aren't so fussy as Suns. As has been said, SGI decided to be "different" and make the host adapter 0 instead of 7). Mine is perfectly happy with a SCA adapted disk on the sled. Indigo2 might look bad next to an Octane, but in many things it will trash or keep up with O2, so don't knock it yet. Where are these $100 Octanes? I want one! Scott Quinn From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 22 17:57:07 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:57:07 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64, TS1000, and Apple ][e software transfer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42910E43.7050703@gbronline.com> Gary Sparkes Jr. wrote: > I'm about to acquire an Apple //e with two DISK ]['s, a TS1000, and > I currently have a C64. I've got a tape drive for the c64 and i believe > ordinary tape decks work for the other two, also i've got floppy on the c > and the apple. Now comes the sticky part... > > Having/getting these systems, How am I going to transfer software to > them?! This problem was addressed and solved for the TS1000/ZX81 years ago. Most programs for this machine which are available on the 'Net are in "P" format and can be transfered to the machine from any MS-DOS PC by means of the ZXTape utility, which is free. The data is transfered from the PC via a simple cable between the PC parallel port and the audio input jack on the TS1000/ZX81. All the required instructions are included in the ZXTape .zip file (back to THAT discussion again ;-) which may be found at multiple locations by Googling for "zxtape" ZXTape is pretty old so you may have to use a slow PC for it to work properly (I have a 286 set up as a file server for moving programs to my ZX81). There's a newer version (ZXTape3) for Pentium-class machines but I've never used it. Once you've LOADed the program into the TS1000 from the PC, you'll be better off SAVEing it to tape via one of the many high-speed tape accelerators which are also available free. I have a hard drive attached to my ZX81, but prior to that I used a fast-tape program which transfers at 4800 bps instead of 300. This cut LOAD times on 16K programs from 5-10 minutes to about 20 seconds. Be sure to check out the archives at the Univ. of Trondheim ftp://ftp.nvg.unit.no/pub/sinclair/zx81/ as well as the ZX81 pages at The World of Spectrum http://www.worldofspectrum.org Tip of the hat to Wilf Rigter, author of ZXTape. Glen 0/0 From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 22 18:05:38 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:05:38 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <4290597B.20804@gjcp.net> References: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> <4290597B.20804@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <05c4436f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <4290597B.20804 at gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > From past experience with these bloody awful contraptions, it's because > that's the chip he's currently cooking his breakfast on... I had my Acorn Master 128 set up and running, with a logic analyser hooked up to the 1MHz Bus port (debugging some hardware - the analyser makes it soo much easier). A few seconds later, I noticed a crackling noise.. followed by copious quantities of foul-smelling Magic Smoke doing its level best to escape from the PSU area of the plastic case. Needless to say, the machine was rather quickly unplugged and relocated to a well-ventilated area (i.e. outside) until the machine stopped smoking. What did I find after I ripped the machine apart? A Class X2 mains capacitor that had arced over, shorted out, then overheated. The ensuing smoke-dump and flamefest ripped the casing apart on one side and reduced part of the casing to a pile of carbonised plastic. If anyone wants to see the damage, let me know and I'll put the photos online somewhere :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... I'm spending a year dead for Tax Purposes From acme at gbronline.com Sun May 22 18:11:18 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:11:18 -0400 Subject: Snagged an Adam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42911196.7010503@gbronline.com> Got it free from a FreeCycle post. It's in pretty good shape, including the printer/power supply, main unit, two hand controllers and keyboard. BUT -- no software or manuals. On power-up, it kicks into typewriter mode. Pushing the right-hand reset button puts it into Colecovision "game" mode. How do I get to the operating system in this beast? Any pointers to a user manual on the 'Net? Parts of the tech manual are available, but the EOS ("elemenatry operating system") portion appears to be missing. Any help, pointers, magic incantations greatly appreciated. Glen 0/0 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 22 18:15:14 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 01:15:14 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> References: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 May 2005 17:58:24 EDT Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Fast R4400 and R10000 systems probably benefit from IRIX 6.5.x, any > version will run on them IIRC 6.5.20 is the last version to officially support any "non-PCI" machine. > As has been said, SGI decided to be "different" and make the host > adapter 0 instead of 7). Actually this is the right way. ID 0 has the highest priority during SCSI arbitration... > Indigo2 might look bad next to an Octane, but in many things it will > trash or keep up with O2, so don't knock it yet. Sure. The O2 has its very speciffic features, but it isn't quite a speed daemon. At least the R5k versions. The O2 has still better IO (Wide SCSI, 100 MBit/s Ethernet) and with a bit of luck you can get a cheap 1600SW + O2 adapter... > Where are these $100 Octanes? I want one! Ebay items: 5773843994 5774072268 5773193789 5772298086 -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun May 22 20:21:51 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:21:51 EDT Subject: 8 inch floppies available Message-ID: <1fb.92410ab.2fc28a2f@aol.com> I've just over 200 8inch floppy disks available for anyone interested. They're work disks from a paper company from 1985. All disks appear to be in good shape with no deterioration or mold that I can see from the random samples I looked at. Most are IBM brand. There's also some system master disks for an old XYCOM CP/M computer. Pay for shipping and you can add any extra if they're worth anything to you. Also got USCD p-system disks, Protem, some Micropro software with manuals and some original digital research master disks. I might keep these for bargaining purposes later. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 22 20:49:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:49:32 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Location Content Op-code comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left > 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay > 001010 007777 delay > 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 > 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until > r1=0 > 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) This runs on my /45, but produces a steady light display, not a cylon or "blinking" effect. It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler. I'm confused about something in the listing above. If the 012700 at location 1000 is a load r0 with 1, I'm guessing the next word (1002) is the constant to be loaded? So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back to the data at 1002? Obviously there's something I'm missing. Guidance? If 1002 is a DEC R0 instruction, then where's the constant "1" for the mov#1,r0 stored in the object? Humm? Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 22 21:57:27 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 22:57:27 -0400 Subject: Dayton aquisition - Socket-brand S-I/O PCMCIA card question Message-ID: What could be one of my more interesting scores is a Socket-brand (www.socketcom.com) S-I/O PCMCIA serial card for $2. Natually for that price, it has no dongle. Dongles for modern Socket products (they make CF serial as well as 3.3V PCMCIA serial) are available new, but I was curious if anyone here has ever worked with these cards and might know if the dongles might be the same? The places selling the dongles list the compatible card part numbers, but this card does not visually match their current offerings, and it's not obvious what the model number is, except perhaps "S-I/O". The numbers below the compatibility glyphs on the back are "8010-00012 L" (which _might_ be a part number, but does not match the ones the dongle mates with), and what is almost certainly a serial number, "0011001592". Of course since I have your attention, I might as well ask if anyone happens to have a Socket-brand serial dongle that would be available. Anywhere from free/postage to a few bucks would be fine, especially if it's known to work with this older card. Thanks, -ethan From mail at g-lenerz.de Mon May 23 01:09:31 2005 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:09:31 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <914216802.20050523080931@g-lenerz.de> Monday, May 23, 2005, 1:15:14 AM, you wrote: >> Fast R4400 and R10000 systems probably benefit from IRIX 6.5.x, any >> version will run on them > IIRC 6.5.20 is the last version to officially support any "non-PCI" > machine. You can go up to 6.5.22 on these machines. From the 6.5.24 release notes: "Changes to Support Mode Status The following workstations, graphics and scalable server systems have transitioned to retired support mode for the IRIX 6.5.23 release. IRIX 6.5.23 does not support installation on these systems: * Challenge S, Challenge M, Challenge DM, Challenge L, Challenge XL * Indigo, Indigo2, Indigo2 Extreme, Indigo2 Impact * Indy * Power Challenge, Power Indigo2, Power Onyx * Onyx1" >> Where are these $100 Octanes? I want one! > Ebay items: 5773843994 5774072268 5773193789 5772298086 Seems like it is a real great idea to buy a full second system instead of upgrading my old one right now. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 23 02:06:18 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:06:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions" (May 23, 1:15) References: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10505230806.ZM20264@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 23 2005, 1:15, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 22 May 2005 17:58:24 EDT > Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > > > Fast R4400 and R10000 systems probably benefit from IRIX 6.5.x, any > > version will run on them > IIRC 6.5.20 is the last version to officially support any "non-PCI" > machine. Actually 6.5.22 is the last release to support Indy, Indigo^2, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tomj at wps.com Mon May 23 02:20:47 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050523000327.S990@localhost> The requirements for magnetic core properties are really well known; old JCC's, PROCEEDINGS and lots and lots of textbooks discuss it reasonably deeply. One word: hysteresis. Successful commercial core memories require grossly underpaid philipino housewives or other exploitable labor; welcome to the fruits of capitalism. I bought a few hundred thousand new/unused plain cores on ePay a few years ago, for about twenty bucks. The problem is they're about .005" OD! If you're going to make your own at home without slave labor to go blind for you, you'll probably want cores large enough to handle. If you just want to play and make a 4 x 4 core or something, I wonder if you couldn't get decent hysteresis with some other ferrite product. You could compensate for a "poor" core with good electronics and/or brute force. I haven't looked at a toroid spec sheet in ages and not for hysteresis. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 23 02:24:03 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Re: PDP 11/45 light chaser" (May 22, 20:49) References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <10505230824.ZM20309@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 22 2005, 20:49, Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... > > Location Content Op-code comment > > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 > > 001002 000001 > > 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left > > 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay > > 001010 007777 delay > > 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 > > 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until > > r1=0 > > 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) > > This runs on my /45, but produces a steady light display, not a cylon or > "blinking" effect. I'm not much of a Unibus expert but I seem to remember there's something odd about what's displayed in the lights, and how you get it to change. > It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler. I'm > confused about something in the listing above. If the 012700 at location > 1000 is a load r0 with 1, I'm guessing the next word (1002) is the constant > to be loaded? So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back to the data > at 1002? Obviously there's something I'm missing. The code is correct, the comments are correct, but the mnemonic instructions are wrong :-) Remember that what's counted in a BR instruction are words, not bytes, but that when the instruction is interpreted, the PC has already been incremented. So 777 is a "branch to self", and 776 is "branch back to the previous instruction". 1376 is "branch back to the previous instruction if Z is set", as at 1014. 772 does indeed branch back to the ROL instruction, because it's "branch back 6". Looks like Jim remembered that "branch back to the previous" is "br -2", thought "two bytes", and just doubled the six to twelve -- except that what he wrote was octal 12 (there's no decimal point after it), or ten decimal :-) Actually, if I'm being really picky, it should be "br .-2". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon May 23 02:38:45 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:38:45 +0200 (MEST) Subject: help sought in Seattle WA/Vancouver BC area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All, > I ened some help in the area named above.. picking up some boxes > and then shipping them out. If you're willing and able to help, > pse drop me a note off-list ! Thanks to all those who replied... the boxes have been taken care of my a list member in the area!! Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje at pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 23 03:05:26 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 01:05:26 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42918EC7.A027C8BB@cs.ubc.ca> Jay West wrote: > It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler (Disclaimer: I haven't dealt with '11 assembler since ~1982 either.) > So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back to the data > at 1002? Obviously there's something I'm missing. The comment is incorrect. The intent is to go to 1004. > Jim wrote.... > > Location Content Op-code comment > > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 ^ comment should be "r0" not "ro" > > 001002 000001 > > 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left ^ comment should be "rotate r0 left" > > 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay > > 001010 007777 delay > > 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 > > 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until r1=0 -2 = -2 > > 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) -6 <> -12 ^ comment should be "001004", ^ comment should be "rotate r0" not "dec r0" At 1014 the machine code and assembler instruction are consistent, and correct for word offsets. At 1016 the machine code and assembler instruction are NOT consistent, but machine code is still correct for word offsets. (And presuming branch offsets are calculated relative to instruction following the branch (after PC increment).) There are some inconsistencies between the machine code / mnemonics / comments, but that doesn't explain why it doesn't work. I'm sure the '11 experts will chime in here... From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon May 23 02:46:44 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:46:44 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 May 2005 17:58:24 EDT." <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> Message-ID: <200505230746.IAA12768@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Scott Quinn said: > Where are these $100 Octanes? I want one! There was one for 50 GBP (about $94) Buy It Now on UK eBay last week. Missing door, but otherwise looked ok. I was quite tempted but it went before I made up my mind. There are several R10s at around 75 - 120 GBP ($140 - $225) I might think about, but I know *nothing* about them, are they a good buy at that sort of price? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mokuba at gmail.com Mon May 23 05:26:09 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes Jr.) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:26:09 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: <200505220125.VAA16457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200505220118.SAA18396@floodgap.com> <200505220125.VAA16457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Pulled it apart, fired it up, felt the chips, and that one got hot as hell within seconds On May 21, 2005, at 9:24 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> My C64's 906114-01 chip just went up on me, in the middle of playing >>> the lemonade stand simulation too :/ >>> > > >> How do you know it's this chip, specifically? >> > > Because that's what's printed on the top, of course! > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mbg at theworld.com Mon May 23 07:15:29 2005 From: mbg at theworld.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200505231215.IAA5769689@shell.TheWorld.com> > Location Content Op-code comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left > 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay > 001010 007777 delay > 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 > 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until > r1=0 > 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) >This runs on my /45, but produces a steady light display, not a cylon or >"blinking" effect. It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler. I'm >confused about something in the listing above. If the 012700 at location Try increasing the delay at 1010. >1000 is a load r0 with 1, I'm guessing the next word (1002) is the >constant to be loaded? So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back >to the data at 1002? >Obviously there's something I'm missing. Guidance? pc = pc + (2*branch_offset) the branch branches back to the instruction at 1004. The comment is obviously wrong. I would suspect that the comment was for code that this code was adapted from. btw - the macro code at 1006 should be 'mov #delay,r1'. >If 1002 is a DEC R0 instruction, then where's the constant "1" for the >mov#1,r0 stored in the object? Humm? 1002 is the initial value to load into R0... there is no 'DEC R0' in the code above. The BR at the end branches back to 1004 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 23 08:47:00 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 06:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 906114-01 ROM CHIP In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes Jr." at "May 23, 5 06:26:09 am" Message-ID: <200505231347.GAA18430@floodgap.com> > Pulled it apart, fired it up, felt the chips, and that one got hot as > hell within seconds A lot of them heat up like that, though. What symptoms? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 23 10:12:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:12:53 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IGY00A797K8OPB0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:20:47 -0700 (PDT) > To: > Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >One word: hysteresis. It is the one thing that makes it possible. >I bought a few hundred thousand new/unused plain cores on ePay a >few years ago, for about twenty bucks. The problem is they're >about .005" OD! If you're going to make your own at home without >slave labor to go blind for you, you'll probably want cores large >enough to handle. You supplied me some once. I was able to assemble a 4word by 8 bit mat but I've not had time to actually drive it. Took two tries to make it. The wire used must have a insulation that is nick resistant. >If you just want to play and make a 4 x 4 core or something, I >wonder if you couldn't get decent hysteresis with some other >ferrite product. You could compensate for a "poor" core with good >electronics and/or brute force. I haven't looked at a toroid spec >sheet in ages and not for hysteresis. I use a lot of the F and FT series torids down the .125" and never saw any spec for hysteresis and I suspect sing most are not easily saturable that would be the difficulty with them. However tehy make near ideal transformeers at 100mhz! Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 23 10:24:32 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:24:32 -0700 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> References: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> Message-ID: >Where are these $100 Octanes? I want one! You can find then on eBay from time to time, but there are a couple of problems. One is that they're low end R10k systems. The other is that shipping will cost about the same as they're apparently quite heavy. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 23 10:34:38 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:34:38 -0700 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <20050522230817.1e93c676.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1116701412.381.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521213705.77227162.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1116706693.381.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050521232007.43758397.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1445646744.20050522215744@g-lenerz.de> <20050522230817.1e93c676.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: >It will be interresting to hear how much noise the O2 and the Origin 200 >generate that I will get next weekend. I suspect that the O2 is not that >loud, but the Origin 200... The O2 can vary, my first O2 was pretty quiet when I first got it, and then I put the 10,000 RPM 18GB Seagate drive in it. That caused vibration issues. By the time I moved it to my current R12K/270 I figured out if I stacked a small pile of books on top of it, the vibration went away. The strange thing is it's no longer sitting on my desk, rather it's on the wooden shelving unit next to it, and I don't really notice the noise. OTOH, I've got 6 10K JBOD drives running about 4 feet from where I'm sitting, so it's always a bit noisy in here. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 23 10:37:37 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:37:37 -0700 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions In-Reply-To: <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <7f.5ea4cd0e.2fc25a80@aol.com> <20050523011514.1c49dffd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > > Indigo2 might look bad next to an Octane, but in many things it will >> trash or keep up with O2, so don't knock it yet. >Sure. The O2 has its very speciffic features, but it isn't quite a speed >daemon. At least the R5k versions. The O2 has still better IO (Wide >SCSI, 100 MBit/s Ethernet) and with a bit of luck you can get a cheap >1600SW + O2 adapter... Something else to keep in mind is that the O2 only supports 32-bit apps, while the Octane supports 64-bit apps. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 23 10:38:28 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 08:38:28 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser In-Reply-To: <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1116862708.7077.19.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 20:49 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... > > Location Content Op-code comment > > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 > > 001002 000001 > > 001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left > > 001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay > > 001010 007777 delay > > 001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 > > 001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until > > r1=0 > > 001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) > > This runs on my /45, but produces a steady light display, not a cylon or > "blinking" effect. It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler. I'm > confused about something in the listing above. If the 012700 at location > 1000 is a load r0 with 1, I'm guessing the next word (1002) is the constant > to be loaded? So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back to the data > at 1002? Obviously there's something I'm missing. Guidance? If 1002 is a DEC > R0 instruction, then where's the constant "1" for the mov#1,r0 stored in the > object? Humm? Here's the light chaser I use: 1 .asect 2 001000 . = 1000 3 start: 4 001000 005000 clr r0 5 001002 005200 inc r0 6 loop: 7 001004 006100 rol r0 8 001006 000005 reset 9 001010 000775 br loop 10 .end start -- TTFN - Guy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 23 10:57:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:57:06 +0000 Subject: ParSiFal T-rack transputer system Message-ID: <1116863826.2711.59.camel@weka.localdomain> We've got one of these critters on the way - it's a 64-processor system in a crate, apparently with transparent case so that the inside can be seen.(ooh!) I believe the CPUs are T800's... Anyone able to tell me anything more about the ParSiFal project though? (Ram?) Info via Google seems extremely thin on the ground. I'd quite like to find out what I can in advance. From what I've been told, a few of these were built by Manchester (UK) uni for SERC, but that's about the total of what details I have at present. I'm not sure what, if any, documentation or software it'll be coming with, what state it's in etc. yet.... SERC still exist, so I'll give then a prod after I've picked the thing up in case they have archives of software from the project still. cheers Jules From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon May 23 11:02:17 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:02:17 -0400 Subject: Foam pads for capacative keyboards In-Reply-To: <200505231538.j4NFcN6M009128@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505231602.j4NG28YG011246@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I would also be interested if there is a large order being put together for the Keytronics keyboards foam pads (depending on the price, of course). [Barry Watzman, Watzman at neo.rr.com] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon May 23 11:09:28 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:09:28 -0400 Subject: Dysan Interrogator In-Reply-To: <200505231538.j4NFcN6M009128@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505231609.j4NG9JYG017750@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "While sorting stuff today, I came across the Dysan software for testing floppies. We used to use this for testing many of the early full size and half height 5 1/4 floppies. Dated 1985, 5 disks and manual in a plastic wallet binder. I was going to put it up on eBay but realised that maybe someone on the list would get more benefit from it. Would rather see it go to a good home than make a dollar or two from it. Let me know. Billy" While the digital diagnostic disks themselves cannot be duplicated, the programs that analyze the disks are just normal EXE files. You should be able to copy those, and then you could both sell the originals and also make the analysis programs available. In my case, I have the DDD disks, but not the programs to run the analysis. [Although I'd like to get a 3.5" disk]. By the way, it's Dysan, not Dyson From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 23 11:38:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <200505231638.JAA25652@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > > >If you just want to play and make a 4 x 4 core or something, I >wonder if you couldn't get decent hysteresis with some other >ferrite product. You could compensate for a "poor" core with good >electronics and/or brute force. I haven't looked at a toroid spec >sheet in ages and not for hysteresis. > Hi Many of the cores designed for RF will take a magnetic set. One normally doesn't do it intentionally because it changes the inductance but they can be magnetized. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 11:59:54 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:59:54 -0700 Subject: Kludge Komputer notes and CDC 8092 manuals Message-ID: <74412b507bc5fd714712a64b35d26813@bitsavers.org> I also loaned him two of the Kludge Komputer Kompany articles from Datamation. They showed up on this list recently too. And I'm certain they will be enjoyed by those who haven't seen them before. -- up now in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datamation Hans, the 8092 mans should be up later today.. From kth at srv.net Mon May 23 12:46:12 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:46:12 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser In-Reply-To: <42918EC7.A027C8BB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000501c55cbe$be2d2b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <031101c55f39$aa79a2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42918EC7.A027C8BB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <429216E4.5050602@srv.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: >Jay West wrote: > > >>It's been decades since I looked at '11 assembler >> >> > >(Disclaimer: I haven't dealt with '11 assembler since ~1982 either.) > > > > >>So, why would the branch at location 1016 go back to the data >>at 1002? Obviously there's something I'm missing. >> >> > >The comment is incorrect. The intent is to go to 1004. > > > > >>Jim wrote.... >> >> >>>Location Content Op-code comment >>>001000 012700 mov #1,r0 load ro with 1 >>> >>> > ^ comment should be "r0" not "ro" > > >>>001002 000001 >>>001004 006100 rol rotate r1 left >>> >>> > ^ comment should be "rotate r0 left" > > >>>001006 012701 mov delay r1 load register r1 with delay >>>001010 007777 delay >>>001012 005301 dec r1 decrement register 1 >>>001014 001376 bne -2 continue to decrement r1 until r1=0 >>> >>> > -2 = -2 > > >>>001016 000772 br -12 back to 001002 (dec r0) >>> >>> > -6 <> -12 ^ comment should be "001004", > ^ comment should be "rotate r0" not "dec r0" > >At 1014 the machine code and assembler instruction are consistent, and correct for word offsets. >At 1016 the machine code and assembler instruction are NOT consistent, but machine code is still correct for word offsets. >(And presuming branch offsets are calculated relative to instruction following the branch (after PC increment).) > >There are some inconsistencies between the machine code / mnemonics / comments, but that doesn't explain why it doesn't work. >I'm sure the '11 experts will chime in here... > > > > Using simh you can see what the code does. A couple possibilities as to why it isn't. 1. Make sure console is set up to monitor R0 iirc: there are knobs on the front panel to determine what you are looking at. 2. Running too fast? increase the value at 1010 (077777?) Here is a badly documented run of this program in simh ** Start up simh emulator ./BIN/pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V3.3-1 ** Load in the program sim> d 001000 012700 sim> d 001002 000001 sim> d 001004 006100 sim> d 001006 012701 sim> d 001010 007777 sim> d 001012 005301 sim> d 001014 001376 sim> d 001016 000772 * Verify what we entered sim> e 001000-001016 1000: 012700 1002: 000001 1004: 006100 1006: 012701 1010: 007777 1012: 005301 1014: 001376 1016: 000772 * Look at the disassembly sim> e -m 001000-001016 1000: MOV #1,R0 1004: ROL R0 1006: MOV #7777,R1 1012: DEC R1 1014: BNE 1012 1016: BR 1004 ** Note that the BR is to 1004, not 1002 ** Load start address sim> de pc 01000 ** Set up a breakpoint sim> br 001016 ** Single step through instructions sim> s Step expired, PC: 001004 (ROL R0) sim> s Step expired, PC: 001006 (MOV #7777,R1) sim> s Step expired, PC: 001012 (DEC R1) sim> s Step expired, PC: 001014 (BNE 1012) Step expired, PC: 001012 (DEC R1) sim> s Step expired, PC: 001014 (BNE 1012) ** This gets boring after a while, so we execute till the breakpoint sim> go Breakpoint, PC: 001016 (BR 1004) sim> e r0 R0: 000002 sim> go Breakpoint, PC: 001016 (BR 1004) sim> e r0 R0: 000004 ** And see where it goes from there sim> s Step expired, PC: 001004 (ROL R0) sim> s Step expired, PC: 001006 (MOV #7777,R1) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon May 23 13:03:32 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:03:32 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002b01c55fc1$bc9a8fe0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Zane H. Healy wrote: > The O2 can vary, my first O2 was pretty quiet when I first got > it, and then I put the 10,000 RPM 18GB Seagate drive in it. > That caused vibration issues. By the time I moved it to my > current R12K/270 I figured out if I stacked a small pile of > books on top of it, the vibration went away. The strange > thing is it's no longer sitting on my desk, rather it's on the > wooden shelving unit next to it, and I don't really notice the > noise. I tried a 73GB Atlas II 10K drive in my VAXstation 4000-90 a few days ago. It all worked quite nicely and it was nice to see OpenVMS V7.1 cope with something that must have seemed unimaginably large at the time the code was written. But the noise was just too much - a bit like a jet engine three feet away from me. If yours was as bad and you've now stopped noticing then YOU'VE GONE DEAF :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon May 23 14:00:11 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:00:11 +0100 Subject: Apologies Re PDP11/45 light chaser Message-ID: <001101c55fc9$a62a9180$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I should never try to type code and comment it at midnight after a couple of glasses of wine............. :-) Apologies Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 23 14:27:53 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI Indigo2 IMPACT questions... In-Reply-To: <002b01c55fc1$bc9a8fe0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at May 23, 2005 07:03:32 PM Message-ID: <200505231927.j4NJRr1N009277@onyx.spiritone.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > The O2 can vary, my first O2 was pretty quiet when I first got > > it, and then I put the 10,000 RPM 18GB Seagate drive in it. > > That caused vibration issues. By the time I moved it to my > > current R12K/270 I figured out if I stacked a small pile of > > books on top of it, the vibration went away. The strange > > thing is it's no longer sitting on my desk, rather it's on the > > wooden shelving unit next to it, and I don't really notice the > > noise. > > I tried a 73GB Atlas II 10K drive in my VAXstation 4000-90 > a few days ago. It all worked quite nicely and it was nice > to see OpenVMS V7.1 cope with something that must have seemed > unimaginably large at the time the code was written. > > But the noise was just too much - a bit like a jet engine > three feet away from me. If yours was as bad and you've now > stopped noticing then YOU'VE GONE DEAF :-) It wasn't anywhere near that noisy, as I recall it was more of an annoying buzzing noise. Even the 6 JBOD canisters with 18GB 10K drives sitting 4 feet away from where I sit aren't that loud. In fact they aren't as loud as the Sparc 5/110 that I was running up until 2-3 months ago in the same rack. It did get retired to quiet things down. Zane From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon May 23 14:38:58 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:38:58 +0100 Subject: PDP11/23+ Error code question Message-ID: <006301c55fcf$10f52f20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Another rescue from the works scrap pile.... I have an OEM 11/23 PLUS, which is based on a quad height chassis (H9875A?), with an 11/23+ cpu, two memory cards, and an RLV12 disk controller (there were a number of other cards, two DEQNA (dual ethernet installation), an OEM video interface, DLV11, and an OEM system ID card (this places a 4 bit octal value in a register that can be read via the bus). These cards have all been removed and replaced with grant cards). The system originally booted via ethernet, and the RLV12 was only installed for standalone diagnostics, hence the cut down version. When the unit is powered up, there is no output to the terminal, and the processor fault LED's give a code of 14, which is listed as "Scope Loop" - does anyone know what this signifies? I have set the boot switches to the factory test settings, with RL02 boot, and the SLU's are set to 9600. The other jumpers all appear to be correct. Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon May 23 14:46:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:46:41 -0400 Subject: PDP11/23+ Error code question References: <006301c55fcf$10f52f20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <17042.13089.557807.328512@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Beacon writes: Jim> When the unit is powered up, there is no output to the terminal, Jim> and the processor fault LED's give a code of 14, which is listed Jim> as "Scope Loop" - does anyone know what this signifies? "Scope loop" in DEC diagnostic terminology means a tight loop repeating a single test (typically a failing test) indefinitely. Typically that would be something not done by default, though I could imagine a poweron selftest doing it by default when things are pretty broken. The term is based on the notion that you'd be hammering the broken thing fast enough that you could observe what was going on with an oscilloscope (without needing stuff like a storage scope -- which field service people did not carry). paul From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon May 23 14:52:58 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 21:52:58 +0200 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <20050523000327.S990@localhost> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> <20050523000327.S990@localhost> Message-ID: <1116877978.29249.11.camel@fortran> On Mon, 2005-05-23 at 00:20 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > Successful commercial core memories require grossly underpaid > philipino housewives or other exploitable labor; welcome to the > fruits of capitalism. > > I bought a few hundred thousand new/unused plain cores on ePay a > few years ago, for about twenty bucks. The problem is they're > about .005" OD! If you're going to make your own at home without > slave labor to go blind for you, you'll probably want cores large > enough to handle. Actually, I've heard a rumour that IBM in the earliest days used professional Scandinavian seamstresses to thread their core - But later they definately used Asian labor until finally the cores became too small for humans to thread, when they made machines. The machines were far more expensive than having a human do it - IIRC they had ways of doing it automatically since the 709 but they were too expensive. This is from slightly vague memory (nonvolatile my arse), but it's in "IBM's Early Computers", where there's a whole chapter on it. -- Tore S Bekkedal From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 23 15:21:54 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <1116877978.29249.11.camel@fortran> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> <20050523000327.S990@localhost> <1116877978.29249.11.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <47930.207.145.53.202.1116879714.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tore wrote about threading core memory: > The machines were > far more expensive than having a human do it - IIRC they had ways of > doing it automatically since the 709 but they were too expensive. Actually they used automation for the X and Y wires starting fairly early on, because that was cheaper than human labor. The cores were vibrated into positions on a metal plate with indentations, then long needles (like hypodermics) were propelled through a row or column of cores. The wire that was threaded through the needle was soldered to the frame, the needle withdrawn, and the wire soldered at the other end. It's the zig-zag sense/inhibit wire that was done manually for many years, because it was much harder to automate. > it's in "IBM's Early Computers", where there's a whole chapter on it. A great book; I'd go so far as to call it "required reading" for anyone interested in computer history. But for more details on core memory, see "Memories that Shaped an Industry: Decisions Leading to IBM System/360" by Emerson Pugh, one of the coauthors of the former book. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 15:36:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428D0080.4050004@srv.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > Do you believe future people will be that much stupider than people > are today, and that all information about computers will have been > totally lost? I think this assumption needs to be made. It's safer. > Make the archive useful to us, now. Let people 500 years from now > figure it out for themselves. That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cmurray at eagle.ca Mon May 23 16:54:20 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:54:20 -0500 Subject: Information on the ADAM computer Message-ID: <200505232054.j4NKsKmr010837@inferno.eagle.ca> Glen, I have been an ADAMphile for some 20 yrs. The best information on my favorite orphan computer can be found at mailman at adamcon.org The ADAM community thrives today. Computing forever! Murray-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:11:18 -0400 From: Glen Goodwin Subject: Snagged an Adam To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <42911196.7010503 at gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Got it free from a FreeCycle post. It's in pretty good shape, including the printer/power supply, main unit, two hand controllers and keyboard. BUT -- no software or manuals. On power-up, it kicks into typewriter mode. Pushing the right-hand reset button puts it into Colecovision "game" mode. How do I get to the operating system in this beast? Any pointers to a user manual on the 'Net? Parts of the tech manual are available, but the EOS ("elemenatry operating system") portion appears to be missing. Any help, pointers, magic incantations greatly appreciated. Glen 0/0 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 23 16:21:34 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:21:34 -0400 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4292495E.nailKPY11DRI7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> Make the archive useful to us, now. Let people 500 years from now >> figure it out for themselves. > That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. No, archives need to be useful now too. Making it useful to people 500 years from now is probably impossible. (Look at the ideographic signs they invented to put at long-term nuclear waste sites, they eventually arrived at something but they have a lot of constraints). To me the distinction is that archives usually have a narrow field of coverage while a library has a broader view. Even that doesn't work well (look at the "Presidential libraries") in common usage. Tim. From acme at gbronline.com Mon May 23 16:48:00 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:48:00 -0400 Subject: Information on the ADAM computer In-Reply-To: <200505232054.j4NKsKmr010837@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200505232054.j4NKsKmr010837@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <42924F90.1030802@gbronline.com> Cmurray wrote: > Glen, > I have been an ADAMphile for some 20 yrs. The best information on my > favorite orphan computer can be found at mailman at adamcon.org The ADAM > community thrives today. > Computing forever! > > Murray-- Thanks Murray -- I had tried this site yesterday but it appeared to be offline at the time. When I first got the ADAM I was planning on eBaying it but it looks too interesting. Just a couple of quick ones while I have your attention: How do I exit SmartWriter and put the system into OS mode? What sort of tapes are required (I don't suppose I can use plain old audio cassettes)? Is there an online software archive such as a lot of older home micros have? Later -- Glen 0/0 From brad at heeltoe.com Mon May 23 16:48:31 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:48:31 -0400 Subject: Dayton aquisition - Socket-brand S-I/O PCMCIA card question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 May 2005 22:57:27 EDT." Message-ID: <200505232148.j4NLmWxv012887@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: .. >(they make CF serial as well as 3.3V PCMCIA serial) are available new, >but I was curious if anyone here has ever worked with these cards and >might know if the dongles might be the same? The places selling the I use them, but the ones I have are "hard wired", i.e. the cable goes straight into the card and does not detach. I love the ones I have - they look like a 16550 to most software and aside from using an odd clock freq (higher than the stock pc freq) they work well. Much better than usb serial dongles. I never leave home w/o one as some of my laptops don't have serial ports (and in the embedded world most every console is a serial port :-) -brad From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon May 23 16:50:49 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:50:49 +0200 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> References: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050523215049.GM2417@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-05-20 19:29:18 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 17:08:34 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > We've now named quite a lot of applications and concepts about how to > handle scanned documents. I'd like to get the big picture: Thanks a lot for all your input. What I read out of that: - All of you just want to read the contents. - It would be nice if specific make-up could be applied, but because it mainly depends on a lot of work, most of you don't consider doing this. - Getting it right into a web browser might be nice to have. - Some of you also care about each individual image for later[tm] post-processing (like OCRing it with The Next Generation Never-Failing HyperOCR[tm](C)(REG) ) - Getting a PDF file out of those images is a must because it's so nice'n'easy to print and copy around. The point is: most of this actually can be done with little scripting or programming! Most of you (especially those who scan, but also those who try to dismantle a PDF file) stated that there are home-brewn scripts doing most of the dirty work. But nobody actually told me something like 'Here's this URL, you'll find my stuff right there.' ...and this is what brings most of the complecity into the big picture. Using libtiff, I guess it's not all that complicated to write a little helper application capable of merging up to 64K single TIFF images into eg. a multi-page TIFF with additional arrays of type-7 tags. That's kind of magic: with this trick, you can embed any data inside a (multi-page) TIFF, pegged to one of the sub-files (read as: one of the embedded page images). Armed with this, you can have /n/ TIFFs for a book's /n/ pages or one hugh multi-page TIFF containing them all, *plus* the bonus of added keywords, chapter captions, printed page number and the like. All these goodies won't show up during TIFF->PDF conversion (for printing), but they'd be well-used by some little scripts to generate a nice web-based slide show. Even a X11-based reader is in reach (there are probably already nice readers for things like eBooks or books for Palm Pilots, though, I've never ever used something like that). So we'd push the data into single TIFF files, we'd easily extract them into text files (eg. for indexing), we'd even import auto-OCRed text (won't be perfect, but probably better than nothing, just for pure Google indexing). To cut a long story short: - Could you life, for long-term storing the data, with using single-page TIFFs? - These could be used to create multi-page TIFFs, PDFs, web pages, ... - Would you like to see something like a X11-based reader which could support searching and equal-or-better navigation (compared to Acrobat Reader)? I currently don't have something scanned around; could somebode send me (preferrably an URL) for some complete scanned doc, I'd prefer something in the range of 20..120 pages. Eric, I don't know how well-working your bookmark generation code is. Can it already handle really tree-like looking bookmarks if the data was available in tumble's input files? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 23 16:58:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip Message-ID: <200505232158.OAA26325@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 19 May 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > >> Do you believe future people will be that much stupider than people >> are today, and that all information about computers will have been >> totally lost? > >I think this assumption needs to be made. It's safer. > >> Make the archive useful to us, now. Let people 500 years from now >> figure it out for themselves. > >That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. > Hi Sellam I've been trying to explain the difference between an archive and distribution of data. So far, they just don't get it. Dwight From Tim at rikers.org Mon May 23 17:05:18 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:05:18 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <200505232158.OAA26325@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505232158.OAA26325@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4292539E.8080901@Rikers.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >>That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. > > I've been trying to explain the difference between an archive > and distribution of data. So far, they just don't get it. Sure, I get it. A Library is an Archive that is Useful. =) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 23 17:38:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip Message-ID: <200505232238.PAA26341@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tim Riker" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >>>That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. >> >> I've been trying to explain the difference between an archive >> and distribution of data. So far, they just don't get it. > >Sure, I get it. A Library is an Archive that is Useful. =) > Hi Just as an square is a polygon. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 23 17:42:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <20050523215049.GM2417@lug-owl.de> References: <1116541253.29178.86.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520073109.GT2417@lug-owl.de> <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> <20050523215049.GM2417@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <60797.207.145.53.202.1116888143.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Armed with this, you can have /n/ TIFFs for a book's /n/ pages or one > hugh multi-page TIFF containing them all, *plus* the bonus of added > keywords, chapter captions, printed page number and the like. All these > goodies won't show up during TIFF->PDF conversion (for printing), Certainly all those "goodies" can be transferred into PDF files. For instance, my "tumble" program can do that: http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ > - Could you life, for long-term storing the data, with using > single-page TIFFs? > - These could be used to create multi-page TIFFs, If you're going to use TIFF as your storage format, why not store them as multi-page TIFF? Anyone that needs individual pages can easily enough "burst" them with a utility like tiffsplit. If you store them as a bunch of single files, it increases the chance that someone will end up with only a partial document, bad pages, etc. (same reason programs are often distributed as ZIP or tar files rather than a bunch of smaller files). > - Would you like to see something like a X11-based reader which > could support searching and equal-or-better navigation > (compared to Acrobat Reader)? Are you talking about a TIFF reader? I'd like to see better PDF readers. Evince is already much better than xpdf was, but there's probably room for further improvement. > Eric, I don't know how well-working your bookmark generation code is. > Can it already handle really tree-like looking bookmarks if the data was > available in tumble's input files? Yes. I don't like the way the tumble control files work now, which is part of why they're not documented. I'm probably going to redesign it to use an XML-based control language. In my copious free time. Sigh. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 18:03:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <17037.1511.799258.276249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > You can rely on the skill and the luck of those who come after us -- > which is what happened in the past (because it wasn't considered). Or > we can do explicit planning to improve the odds. Again, I like the > work of the Long Now foundation because it seems like a fascinating > example of what you get when you really dig hard into these questions > and assume as little as possible. This sort of gets to the heart of the matter. Why make it challenging for future generations when we have the wisdom, intelligence and means today to preserve enough information for future generations to eliminate the guessing. Sure, mysteries are fun, but why create mysteries unnecessarily? Save all the information when it's still fresh and with as much supporting information as possible. Assume everyone in the future will be more stupid than you, and with crappier technology. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 17:21:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:21:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser In-Reply-To: <10505230824.ZM20309@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 23, 5 08:24:03 am Message-ID: > I'm not much of a Unibus expert but I seem to remember there's > something odd about what's displayed in the lights, and how you get it > to change. THe easiest way on an 11/45 (or an 11/70?) is to store the value at the address used for the switch register (777570 IIRC) and set the rotary knob to the right of the data lights appropriately. The first PDP11 program I ever wrote was something like mov #0,r0 ; Initialise counter loop: move r0.(#177570) ; Store counter in lights register inc R0 ; increment the counter reset ; wait a bit jmp loop ; round again, jumos are easier to hand assemble ; than branches, but even so I got caught out ; the first time -- you use one more level of ; indirection than you might think! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 18:07:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:07:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ Error code question In-Reply-To: <006301c55fcf$10f52f20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at May 23, 5 08:38:58 pm Message-ID: > When the unit is powered up, there is no output to the terminal, and the > processor fault LED's give a code of 14, which is listed as "Scope Loop" - > does anyone know what this signifies? The original meaning of 'scope loop' in DEC diagnostics was a tight loop that kept on accessing some failing piece of hardware so you could use a non-storage 'scope to debug it. I would assume, based on the fact it's code 14, that it's fairly early on in the power-on diagnostics of your 11/23+ system, and that there's smething fairly fuandamentally wrong with the CPU/memory/bus. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 23 18:23:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling medium old software Message-ID: <200505232323.QAA26369@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I just saw article # 23439 on the inquirer about a fellow that has a collection of "old" software. On checking the article a little more, I find that "many of which are for non IBM PC machines". Wow! Some for such RARE machines as Commodore 64 and Apple II. He expects to auction it off starting at $199,000 It seems to be truck loads though. His pricing does seem a little high. My heart flutters with excitement. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 18:26:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <001201c55cba$4fe00100$243dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Al can decide if it should be text only, html, excel, etc. If there is a > vote I vote text only either comma delimited (with quotes when needed) or > fixed width fields that would be easier to read. This is more of just a general observation applicable to everything: commas are convenient and intuitive but a much better delimiting character for anything you do is the vertical line | because it rarely if ever shows up in text either machine generated or hand-written and will therefore not cause interference in field data containing commas when parsing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 18:32:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050519172649.00981b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Are you sure you're not thinking of the Sim-8? That's what's shown in > the 8008 manual. If you have other drawings I'd like to get a copy. What 8008 manual are you referring to? I'd like to see a picture of a SIM-8 so I can compare it against the one I have and to also hopefully help me track down the CPU board. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 23 18:38:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:38:53 -0700 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers Message-ID: <4292698D.4070905@bitsavers.org> a much better delimiting character for anything you do is the vertical line | because it rarely if ever shows up in text either machine generated or hand-written -- There are four of them in your .signature From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 23 18:45:01 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:45:01 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software In-Reply-To: <200505232323.QAA26369@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505232323.QAA26369@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42926AFD.nailN0611FPJV@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > He expects to auction it off starting at $199,000 Not a bad way to raise publicity for your other auctions, I guess. On a similar note, sometime in the mid-90's some guy bought out millions of remaining Atari 2600/5200 cartridges, and started selling them on his website. I cannot imagine him selling them all! Although I could see how he might get tired or bored of the same old thing... Tim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon May 23 18:46:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datasheet or info for Fairchild uA3656D? Message-ID: <200505232346.QAA26379@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 19 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Are you sure you're not thinking of the Sim-8? That's what's shown in >> the 8008 manual. If you have other drawings I'd like to get a copy. > >What 8008 manual are you referring to? I'd like to see a picture of a >SIM-8 so I can compare it against the one I have and to also hopefully >help me track down the CPU board. > Hi Sellam Look at the 8008 manuals on Al's site. They show a SIM-8. The entire setup is similar to my SIM-4 except that the CPU board is wider. Dwight From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 23 19:20:13 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:20:13 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software Message-ID: >On a similar note, sometime in the mid-90's some guy bought out >millions of remaining Atari 2600/5200 cartridges, and started selling >them on his website. I cannot imagine him selling them all! >Although I could see how he might get tired or bored of the same >old thing... > Is that the guy that was housing them in an old salt mine? -chris From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 23 19:40:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:40:21 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software References: Message-ID: <002b01c55ff9$2b1ccb90$09aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Selling medium old software > >On a similar note, sometime in the mid-90's some guy bought out > >millions of remaining Atari 2600/5200 cartridges, and started selling > >them on his website. I cannot imagine him selling them all! > >Although I could see how he might get tired or bored of the same > >old thing... > > > > Is that the guy that was housing them in an old salt mine? > > -chris > > I guess that would keep the humidity low. The guy this post was originally talking about must have 100's of duplicates of each game, and probably quite a few lame titles nobody would want in the first place. The starting price in my opinion is a bit nuts. If you are lucky you can sell enough games on ebay to pay for the warehouse rent, good luck getting your initial investment back. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 19:42:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, open > > formats are more important than making sure that everyone's grandma can > > figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that the person has a > > grasp of being able to learn new things, and some idea of logic are IMO > > reasonable assumptions. > > You alos need to consider what is the most likely sort of person to want > to access this archive. It's an archive of boot disks, PROMs, etc for > what are _now_ somewhat obscure computers, and which will presumably be > even more obscure in the future. The sort of person to need that sort of > data is likely to have quite a bit of computer knowledge already, and is > not going to have problesm with tracking down a copy of gnu tar or > similar.... Future computer historians (or even current ones for that matter) won't necessarily have the computer skills necessary to track down or even use tar. It's not just technical people who will be interested in this stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 19:49:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <200505200046.RAA23312@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The Idea of an archive is to try to minimize the interdependencies. > The archive should include the zip, rar and tar information. > That doesn't mean that the archive should depend on them. Very well said. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 23 19:57:10 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:57:10 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42927BE6.nailNH314IL2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> remaindered Atari 2600/5200 cartridges > Is that the guy that was housing them in an old salt mine? Bingo, yes, that triggers my memory. But isn't enough to find any references in Google. What does that mean? Is there some universe that exists in your and my memory but not in Google's? :-). Tim. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon May 23 20:20:45 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:20:45 -0500 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) References: Message-ID: <001001c55ffe$d2f9b800$463dd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 7:49 PM > On Thu, 19 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> The Idea of an archive is to try to minimize the interdependencies. >> The archive should include the zip, rar and tar information. >> That doesn't mean that the archive should depend on them. > > Very well said. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] So many people don't like that I post self extracting archives but at least it is currently usable by the largest population and there is a better chance when everything including the tools to extract it are all in one file. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 23 20:50:51 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 21:50:51 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software Message-ID: >>> remaindered Atari 2600/5200 cartridges >> Is that the guy that was housing them in an old salt mine? > >Bingo, yes, that triggers my memory. But isn't enough to find >any references in Google. What does that mean? Is there some >universe that exists in your and my memory but not in Google's? :-). The guy probably went broke in a spectacular way (I can't imagine what kind of debt he might have gotten into buying such a huge supply of Atari carts, and then renting a salt mine to store and sell them). Now he doesn't exist, and no one links to him or ever really linked to him (maybe if they had, he would have gone broke in a less spectacular way). Since google works on how many people link to a page, he might be the last link on some odd search combination of 'Atari Salt "Insane sales ideas"'. I don't know about your mind, but mine doesn't work based on how many times something is linked to from something else. Mine works on some strange as yet to be fully determined system of storing totally useless tidbits of information while disposing of the important things like what my wife told me this morning to pick up on the way home (still don't remember, and she won't tell me, and the fact that I remembered a guy sold Atari carts out of a salt mine has made her stop telling me anything for the night... which I have yet to decide if that is really a bad thing or not). -chris From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 21:01:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Lot of what is rare stuff in that pic (like the RF08 on his left..) > > By the way, the original plac ethat picture was used was an old National > Geographic. I recall the same page has a picture of one of the piles as > ILLIAC 4 was being scrapped. Are you talking about the November 1970 issue of National Geopgraphic? It's the only old NG that has a story on computers, "Behold the Computer Revolution". Took me several years to find but I eventually tracked down a copy (not hard, considering there are tons of old NG issues out there). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 21:07:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DC100 tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050519231930.009d0c80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 05:32 PM 5/19/05 -0700, you wrote: > > > >I have a couple HP DC100 tapes that I'm going to attempt a dump from. I'm > >told they were written on a 9845. I don't have a 9845 (still regret the > >one I missed years ago). Can these be read on a 9830B? What about an HP > >85? > > No and no. The 9845 has a higher level of basic than the 85 or any of the > other calculators. What does the version of BASIC have to do with the file storage format on the tape? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Mon May 23 21:16:33 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:16:33 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software References: Message-ID: <006d01c56006$9b5a8c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > storing totally useless tidbits of information while disposing > of the important things like what my wife told me this morning Maybe it's time to classify a new disease: "Classiccmp Burnout" > I don't know about your mind, but mine doesn't work Don't quote this line out of context. In worse times, I learned how to delete quickly on this list, as a matter of survival. Now that things are staying well on topic (Thanks, JW) it is harder but there's still a problem with list volume. The only solutions are to unsub, learn to delete fast, or get a benefactor to finance your new career of reading the list full time. 1 and 3 are impossible, IMHO. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 23 21:40:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eeeeeeewww....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > For the Apple 2 fans...or the MVS fan...or those that hate either one... > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/jmaynard/203754.html Fun. Did you know that there is a 3270 card for the Apple ][? Strange but true. I have the manual. Not sure about the card. It's an Apple product. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Mon May 23 21:53:15 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:53:15 -0400 Subject: IBM PC, XT, Tandy 1000, TRS-80 available in NJ Message-ID: Ok, time to reduce inventory again and get rid of more stuff that I haven't gotten around to playing with. I've got a few IBM PCs (5150), IBM XTs (5160), a Tandy 1000, and a TRS-80 (model 3? The silver all in one unit) All are available free for pickup in Northern NJ (Ridgewood, 07450). Right now I'm not willing to ship (well, I am, but you better offer me something to make it worth my time/effort, if I had the interest in shipping, I'd try them all on ebay first) All are also free if you pick them up. I'm not in any huge rush to get rid of them, but the sooner the better (ie: they are in no danger of being thrown out and I am willing to hold for a reputable person that I honestly believe will actually show up to get them... don't do what I did to poor Dave in CT and take well over a year to drop off a tape deck I owed him). I only have one TRS-80, it does not have any floppy drives, software, or anything else. I only have one Tandy 1000, but it has the keyboard, monitor, and printer (humm... actually, it may not have the keyboard, I'd have to double check). No software or anything else. I have a few IBM PCs and IBM XTs, I'm not 100% positive on the counts on either. I may or may not have monitors to go with them, but I should have keyboards (I should also have at least two monitors, plus I believe a broken mono for the PC that I never got around to doing the repair Tony explained to me). I don't currently have any software or otherwise for them, although I believe some have hard drives, and I have no idea what may or may not be on those. None of the above are tested right now, but if someone is honestly interested in picking anything up, I'm willing to do any testing I can before you take the time to drive and get them. I'm also willing to drive within reason to deliver them, but I'd like something in return if I do (I prefer something cool in trade, I like things made by Apple, but I'm also in desperate need of some kind of tablet computer or similar I can use as a basic eBook reader, I may also be interested in other items) -chris From news at computercollector.com Mon May 23 23:07:51 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:07:51 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? Message-ID: <200505240404.j4O4449T016545@dewey.classiccmp.org> And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it appears he did the same thing in 2002: http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon May 23 23:06:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EAI Analog Computers Message-ID: I have a pair of EAI TR-48 analog computers that I really need to part with. These are circa 1960 machines. From Mr. Cowards site: Operating range: +/- 10 volts DC Computing Elements: Up to 58 DC amplifiers Up to 115 Coefficient setting potentimeters Options: Up to 24 integrators These are large machines, so if you are located far away from Carmel, NY, you would need to call a mover (I could deliver withing a few hundred miles with some arm twisting). One machine has the original operating desk, plus there are a few extra patchpanels, lotsa cords, modules, and other good stuff. Any interest on this list? If so, I should start digging these out of storage. These are for sale, but I would consider trades of old mainframe or minicomputer stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Mon May 23 23:16:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:16:54 -0400 Subject: Oops ! Please ignore my reply just now -- RE: Also ... RE: Anyone know this guy!? Message-ID: <200505240413.j4O4D4NJ016779@dewey.classiccmp.org> Meant to send that "maybe he's donate" message to my local club. Sorry. -----Original Message----- From: Evan [mailto:evan947 at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:16 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Also ... RE: Anyone know this guy!? Maybe he'd consider donating parts of the collection to MARCH. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:08 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone know this guy!? And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it appears he did the same thing in 2002: http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 23 23:17:01 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 05:17:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone know this guy!? Message-ID: <20050524041701.93636.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? Errr, no. Going by the numbers from the two pages he's been shifting 25,000 peices each year with 7 tears of stock left. I also see it's an auction with a starting price of $199k but no reserve?! How does that work? Surely the starting price IS the reserve because I sure as heck can't bid $1 and have it accepted. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Mon May 23 23:24:40 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:24:40 -0500 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <200505240404.j4O4449T016545@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505240404.j4O4449T016545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4292AC88.6040902@pacbell.net> Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? > http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ > > The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it > appears he did the same thing in 2002: > http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp Looking at his ebay sales history, he is moving less than $100/day, probably closer to $50 long term. Some days he clears 20 items, others 0/1/2/3. Let's be generous and say $100/day is sustainable. For his $200K asking price, it would take 2000 days, or 5.5 years to recover the investment. If he gets the $1M he hopes, it would take 25 years at $100/day to recover the investment. Of course, it would be a lot longer than that, since there would be storage costs and taxes to be paid. That is a lot of work and a long time to get back to break even. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 23 23:49:33 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:49:33 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? References: <200505240404.j4O4449T016545@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4292AC88.6040902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <006201c5601b$fb25a920$09aab941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Anyone know this guy!? > Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > > And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? > > http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ > > > > The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it > > appears he did the same thing in 2002: > > http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp > > Looking at his ebay sales history, he is moving less than $100/day, > probably closer to $50 long term. Some days he clears 20 items, others > 0/1/2/3. Let's be generous and say $100/day is sustainable. For his > $200K asking price, it would take 2000 days, or 5.5 years to recover the > investment. If he gets the $1M he hopes, it would take 25 years at > $100/day to recover the investment. > > Of course, it would be a lot longer than that, since there would be > storage costs and taxes to be paid. That is a lot of work and a long > time to get back to break even. > > Or if the retro computing phase dies like quite a few collectable hobbies you will never get the initial investment back and have to pay landfill charges to dump all those games. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue May 24 00:17:20 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:17:20 -0700 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <1116877978.29249.11.camel@fortran> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> <20050523000327.S990@localhost> <1116877978.29249.11.camel@fortran> Message-ID: Hey..... My stepmother threaded core for Hughes Aircraft in California, I think in the 1960s. She sent me a sample of her work which was done under a microscope back then. Little did I appreciate it. She was good at detail work. Paxton Astoria, OR USA : > > Successful commercial core memories require grossly underpaid > > philipino housewives or other exploitable labor; welcome to the > > fruits of capitalism. > > > > I bought a few hundred thousand new/unused plain cores on ePay a > > few years ago, for about twenty bucks. The problem is they're > > about .005" OD! If you're going to make your own at home without > > slave labor to go blind for you, you'll probably want cores large > > enough to handle. > > Actually, I've heard a rumour that IBM in the earliest days used > professional Scandinavian seamstresses to thread their core - But later > they definately used Asian labor until finally the cores became too > small for humans to thread, when they made machines. The machines were > far more expensive than having a human do it - IIRC they had ways of > doing it automatically since the 709 but they were too expensive. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 24 01:00:45 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 02:00:45 EDT Subject: SGIs and 64-bittiness Message-ID: <1e9.3c9196f5.2fc41d0d@aol.com> IP26&28 Indigo2s, all Onyxes, Origins and big Challenges are also full 64-bit. But, that doesn't really mean much practically speaking- almost everything is compiled in n32 "hybrid" mode, which will run on any R4k or better with IRIX 6.2+. In fact, n32 is what SGI recommends becasue it's faster in processing and, I believe, slightly more memory efficient. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 24 01:41:00 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:41:00 -0700 Subject: SGIs and 64-bittiness In-Reply-To: <1e9.3c9196f5.2fc41d0d@aol.com> References: <1e9.3c9196f5.2fc41d0d@aol.com> Message-ID: >IP26&28 Indigo2s, all Onyxes, Origins and big Challenges are also full >64-bit. Are you sure about the Indigo 2's? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue May 24 02:38:44 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:38:44 +0200 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <60797.207.145.53.202.1116888143.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <1116588984.30950.22.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520120536.GX2417@lug-owl.de> <1116596275.30967.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520135041.GY2417@lug-owl.de> <1116601300.30950.55.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c901c55d5c$b65ab720$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <1116608914.30967.95.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050520172918.GD2417@lug-owl.de> <20050523215049.GM2417@lug-owl.de> <60797.207.145.53.202.1116888143.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050524073844.GO2417@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2005-05-23 15:42:23 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > If you're going to use TIFF as your storage format, why not store > them as multi-page TIFF? Anyone that needs individual pages can 2GB file-size limit and BigTIFF is yet in early draft stage. This *might* be a problem at some time. > easily enough "burst" them with a utility like tiffsplit. If you > store them as a bunch of single files, it increases the chance that > someone will end up with only a partial document, bad pages, etc. > (same reason programs are often distributed as ZIP or tar files rather > than a bunch of smaller files). I'm not sure of available tools can handle that, esp. copying unknown tags (esp. those of newer date like the "new" UNDEFINED tag of TIFF6.0). But libtiff is available, so if existing tools cannot yet handle it, they either could easily be extended or we write our own. > Are you talking about a TIFF reader? I'd like to see better PDF readers. Basically yes, but with the ability to use additional embedded data like captions, printed page number and index words. > Evince is already much better than xpdf was, but there's probably room > for further improvement. I'd really give it a try :) > > Eric, I don't know how well-working your bookmark generation code is. > > Can it already handle really tree-like looking bookmarks if the data was > > available in tumble's input files? > > Yes. Super :) > I don't like the way the tumble control files work now, which is > part of why they're not documented. I'm probably going to redesign it > to use an XML-based control language. I'm really thinking about doing some testing with custom TIFF tags. With that, an external control file may not be needed at all. Though, the tools need to extract/import that data to/from text files of course. > In my copious free time. Sigh. That's always a problem I guess. I just quit my contract (will remain at my current employer's site for another month continuing hacking _and_ teaching coworkers) and of course I'd like to hack vax-linux, too. (It was about 04:20 when I went to bed this night, 07:00 is when my alarm clock rings up and I'm doing that for too long already...) But don't start too fast with a new XML interface. Maybe the TIFF files will ship all data for free at some time :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue May 24 04:34:46 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 05:34:46 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <20050524041701.93636.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050524041701.93636.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4292F536.nail1LL11KMZC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > he's been shifting 25,000 pieces each year with 7 years of stock left. Looking at his E-bay feedback and figuring that E-bay is the bulk of his business, the number is more likely 1000 pieces a year. > Surely the starting price IS the reserve Obviously you're right, but in Ebay lingo it's still a "no-reserve" auction. Tim. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 24 05:46:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:46:47 -0400 Subject: HP DC100 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050519231930.009d0c80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050524064647.00996d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:07 PM 5/23/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 19 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> At 05:32 PM 5/19/05 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >I have a couple HP DC100 tapes that I'm going to attempt a dump from. I'm >> >told they were written on a 9845. I don't have a 9845 (still regret the >> >one I missed years ago). Can these be read on a 9830B? What about an HP >> >85? >> >> No and no. The 9845 has a higher level of basic than the 85 or any of the >> other calculators. > >What does the version of BASIC have to do with the file storage format on >the tape? I'm almost certain that the programs are stored in a tokenized format and the "lesser" machines don't have all the BASIC commands that the 9845 does therefore they can't translate 9845 programs back into text. I read an article about this somewhere in a HP manual. I think it was in one of the HP 9845 manuals. I have some here at the house I'll look through them and see if I can find it. Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 24 08:40:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:40:06 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <10505230824.ZM20309@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <17043.11958.799827.56796@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I'm not much of a Unibus expert but I seem to remember there's >> something odd about what's displayed in the lights, and how you >> get it to change. Tony> THe easiest way on an 11/45 (or an 11/70?) is to store the Tony> value at the address used for the switch register (777570 IIRC) Tony> and set the rotary knob to the right of the data lights Tony> appropriately. Definitely, if you have a machine with a display register (which is how the write-only register at 777570 is referred to). The "data paths" setting roughly matches what you get on an 11/40, which doesn't have that switch. In that case, the lights display the contents of R0 during a WAIT (and apparently also during a RESET). The fact that this happens for WAIT is the basis of the "spinning lights" idle code used in various operating systems (RSTS for one, though not RT11 which uses the display register instead). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 24 08:42:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:42:46 -0400 Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers References: <4292698D.4070905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17043.12118.178995.821685@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: >> a much better delimiting character for anything you do is the >> vertical line | because it rarely if ever shows up in text either >> machine generated or hand-written Al> There are four of them in your .signature :-) Not only that, but no matter what character you pick you must define an escape scheme in case that character does appear. Given that you've done this, the choice of character no longer matters (unless saving bits is an issue -- in which case you're better off looking at compression algorithms). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 24 09:01:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:01:21 -0400 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: Message-ID: <17043.13233.153694.770146@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Thu, 19 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: >> > Lot of what is rare stuff in that pic (like the RF08 on his >> left..) >> >> By the way, the original plac ethat picture was used was an old >> National Geographic. I recall the same page has a picture of one >> of the piles as ILLIAC 4 was being scrapped. Vintage> Are you talking about the November 1970 issue of National Vintage> Geopgraphic? Can't be -- Illiac 4 was either not yet in existence, or alive and well -- certainly not scrapped. I remember it was a running system while I was at the U of Illinois in the late 1970s -- occasionally visiting the building where it was supposed to have been installed. (It ended up on a military base instead, because DoD was paying for the machine and decided they didn't like to put it on a campus full of hippy protestors... but by then the building had already been constructed.) paul From GOOI at oce.nl Tue May 24 09:04:08 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:04:08 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CD4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> The drawback of the light chaser program that uses the RESET instruction is that the heads load and unload of the RX02 drive in my PDP-11/40. That clunck-clunck sound is not pretty for a longer while ... - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: dinsdag 24 mei 2005 15:40 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP 11/45 light chaser > > > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> I'm not much of a Unibus expert but I seem to remember there's > >> something odd about what's displayed in the lights, and how you > >> get it to change. > > Tony> THe easiest way on an 11/45 (or an 11/70?) is to store the > Tony> value at the address used for the switch register (777570 IIRC) > Tony> and set the rotary knob to the right of the data lights > Tony> appropriately. > > Definitely, if you have a machine with a display register (which is > how the write-only register at 777570 is referred to). > > The "data paths" setting roughly matches what you get on an 11/40, > which doesn't have that switch. In that case, the lights display the > contents of R0 during a WAIT (and apparently also during a RESET). > The fact that this happens for WAIT is the basis of the "spinning > lights" idle code used in various operating systems (RSTS for one, > though not RT11 which uses the display register instead). > > paul From allain at panix.com Tue May 24 09:29:09 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:29:09 -0400 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: <17043.13233.153694.770146@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002f01c5606c$f35510e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Are you talking about the November 1970 issue of National >> Geopgraphic? > Can't be -- Illiac 4 was either not yet in existence, or alive > and well -- certainly not scrapped. There are two articles in the mentioning November 1970 "Behold the Computer Revolution" October 1982 The Chip The second one has the PDP8 dealer and the scrappiac. John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 24 09:39:48 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:39:48 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CD4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <17043.15540.598856.207405@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> The drawback of the light chaser program that uses the RESET Gooijen> instruction is that the heads load and unload of the RX02 Gooijen> drive in my PDP-11/40. That clunck-clunck sound is not Gooijen> pretty for a longer while ... So start up the KW11L clock, point its vector to an RTI, and use a WAIT instead of a RESET... paul From dundas at caltech.edu Tue May 24 09:59:15 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:59:15 -0700 Subject: Bad EEPROM on 11/84 Message-ID: I could use the collective wisdom of the list. I have an 11/84 (M8190) with what appears to be a bad configuration EEPROM. [The symptoms are that at boot the system attempts to boot and immediately drops into ODT rather than testing memory and the setup menu. Replacing the EEPROM with a known good one from another board cures the problem.] I'm trying to learn more about the EEPROM but haven't had a lot of luck yet. It appears to be a Xicor X2816AP, 24-pin, DIP. This seems to be a 2k x 8bit EEPROM, but I haven't found out much else yet. I would like to find a replacement for the EEPROM. Two questions: 1) Any recommended sources for such parts out there? 2) Any suggestions on how to initialize it? Perhaps just leave it zeroed? Or copy a known good one? Thanks, John From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 10:07:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... Message-ID: ...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5197990680&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Tue May 24 10:10:23 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:10:23 -0400 (edt) Subject: Selling medium old software In-Reply-To: from "chris" at May 23, 05 09:50:51 pm Message-ID: <200505241510.LAA09159@wordstock.com> And thusly chris spake: > > >>> remaindered Atari 2600/5200 cartridges > >> Is that the guy that was housing them in an old salt mine? > > > > I don't know about your mind, but mine doesn't work based on how many > times something is linked to from something else. Mine works on some > strange as yet to be fully determined system of storing totally useless > tidbits of information while disposing of the important things like what > my wife told me this morning to pick up on the way home (still don't > remember, and she won't tell me, and the fact that I remembered a guy > sold Atari carts out of a salt mine has made her stop telling me anything > for the night... which I have yet to decide if that is really a bad thing > or not). The site you are thinking of is still around at http://www.oshealtd.com Cheers, Bryan Pope From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 24 10:27:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? I do not think this is completely unreasonable. There seem to be lots of G-15 fans out there (for one, it is one of the tube computers one could wish for, and possibly even obtain and run.) William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Tue May 24 10:37:08 2005 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:37:08 -0400 Subject: Selling medium old software Message-ID: <380-22005522415378416@buckeye-express.com> > The guy probably went broke in a spectacular way > (I can't imagine what kind of debt he might have > gotten into buying such a huge supply of Atari > carts, and then renting a salt mine to store and > sell them). Now he doesn't exist, and no one links > to him or ever really linked to him (maybe if they > had, he would have gone broke in a less spectacular > way). Bzzt. Thank you for playing. Salt mine with lots of Atari games: http://www.oshealtd.com/ -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 24 10:49:37 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:49:37 -0500 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505241049.37520.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 24 May 2005 10:07, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > ...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? It's just you. :) Thanks for playing. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kth at srv.net Tue May 24 10:51:50 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 09:51:50 -0600 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 20 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >>>Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, open >>>formats are more important than making sure that everyone's grandma can >>>figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that the person has a >>>grasp of being able to learn new things, and some idea of logic are IMO >>>reasonable assumptions. >>> >>> >>You alos need to consider what is the most likely sort of person to want >>to access this archive. It's an archive of boot disks, PROMs, etc for >>what are _now_ somewhat obscure computers, and which will presumably be >>even more obscure in the future. The sort of person to need that sort of >>data is likely to have quite a bit of computer knowledge already, and is >>not going to have problesm with tracking down a copy of gnu tar or >>similar.... >> >> > >Future computer historians (or even current ones for that matter) won't >necessarily have the computer skills necessary to track down or even use >tar. > > Why is it assumed that people in the future will be complete idiots? Like current library technicians, who cannot possibly figure out the technology of books that were printed more than 100 years ago. It's impossible for them to figure out how to "turn the page", and are struggling with the strange concept of "letters". And those "book" things don't even taste very good. These stupid people won't have any concept of a computer, so it is unlikely that they will be able to read a tape, cd, etc. You will have to carve the data on stone blocks in foot high letters. Would they even know of "English"? You better make sure that the data has been converted into cartoons without captions, like those "spy-vs-spy" ones, because they will be too dumb to handle anything more complex than that. The cartoons will probably be stretching the limits of their minuscule brain-power. >It's not just technical people who will be interested in this stuff. > > It will also interest the priests, like the Spanish priests who demanded that all the Inca codex's be destroyed, and the people brought all they could find to the priests to be burned; they couldn't read them, thus they were obviously about devil warship. So, you better hide the archive so that it cannot be found by priests, or anyone who might know any priests; they cannot possibly understand tar format, thus they will assume it must be evil and destroy it. And to make sure they won't actively search it out, you better make sure it confirms to all possible religious beliefs: 1. The earth is flat. 2. The sun and planets go around the earth. 3. Rome is the center of the universe. 4. China is the center of the universe. 5. Mexico is the center of the universe. 6. Mount Olympus is the center of the universe. 7. The world was created in 7 days. 8. The world was created from Budda's navel. 9. The stars are mounted on a fixed celestial globe. 10. There is no such thing as evolution. 11. It's Ok, even required, to kill anyone of another religion. 12. Killing them in the most brutal, slow, and painful ways will gain you brownie points in the next life. 13. Oral sex isn't sex. 14. Microsoft is the center of the universe. 15. The earth sits on the back of a giant tortoise. ... From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 24 10:38:01 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:38:01 -0500 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524103022.05111a58@mail> At 10:07 AM 5/24/2005, you wrote: >...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5197990680&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Did you check out all the other items that this buyer has bought recently? Looks like lots of cash, lots of techno-lust. Dozens of items bought per day. He's only buying on this ID. 728 feedbacks from sellers. Zero feedbacks from anything he's sold. Am I reading that right? They're building a museum? Write 'dkdkk' a note. All sorts of crud in Vintage Computers / Other. Someone's selling a ten CD, $9.99 set of Altair / S-100 docs? I'm surprised by the amount of spare core for sale. A Digi-Comp 1. Repro Jacquard cards. 486DX2-80 "very rare." Uh-huh. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 24 11:02:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:02:18 +0000 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> References: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Message-ID: <1116950538.4569.24.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 09:51 -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > Why is it assumed that people in the future will be complete idiots? We've got years of downward spiral as evidence :-) Actually, as a species we'll probably remove ourselves from the equation long before it actually matters. We'd be better off developing a format that mice can understand :) cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Tue May 24 11:14:59 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:14:59 -0400 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524103022.05111a58@mail> Message-ID: <200505241611.j4OGBKia023319@dewey.classiccmp.org> >>>> 728 feedbacks from sellers. Zero feedbacks from anything he's sold. Am I reading that right? They're building a museum? Write 'dkdkk' a note. I just did, we'll see if there is a reply... - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:38 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Is it just me... At 10:07 AM 5/24/2005, you wrote: >...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5197990680&rd=1&sspa >gename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Did you check out all the other items that this buyer has bought recently? Looks like lots of cash, lots of techno-lust. Dozens of items bought per day. He's only buying on this ID. 728 feedbacks from sellers. Zero feedbacks from anything he's sold. Am I reading that right? They're building a museum? Write 'dkdkk' a note. All sorts of crud in Vintage Computers / Other. Someone's selling a ten CD, $9.99 set of Altair / S-100 docs? I'm surprised by the amount of spare core for sale. A Digi-Comp 1. Repro Jacquard cards. 486DX2-80 "very rare." Uh-huh. - John From spedraja at ono.com Tue May 24 11:12:56 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:12:56 +0200 Subject: Is it just me... References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524103022.05111a58@mail> Message-ID: <019a01c5607b$7243b150$1502a8c0@ACER> Some kind of money cleaning ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Is it just me... > At 10:07 AM 5/24/2005, you wrote: > > >...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5197990680&rd=1&sspagena me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > Did you check out all the other items that this buyer has > bought recently? Looks like lots of cash, lots of techno-lust. > Dozens of items bought per day. > > He's only buying on this ID. 728 feedbacks from sellers. > Zero feedbacks from anything he's sold. Am I reading that right? > They're building a museum? Write 'dkdkk' a note. > > All sorts of crud in Vintage Computers / Other. Someone's selling > a ten CD, $9.99 set of Altair / S-100 docs? I'm surprised by > the amount of spare core for sale. A Digi-Comp 1. Repro Jacquard cards. > 486DX2-80 "very rare." Uh-huh. > > - John > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 24 11:03:53 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:03:53 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> References: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524110214.055c8db8@mail> At 10:51 AM 5/24/2005, Kevin Handy wrote: >It's impossible for them to figure out how to "turn the page", and are >struggling with the strange concept of "letters". And those "book" >things don't even taste very good. Depends on which restaurant you visit. I went to "Moto" in Chicago this weekend; several choices were printed, flavored paper: http://www.motorestaurant.com - John From news at computercollector.com Tue May 24 11:24:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:24:57 -0400 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Message-ID: <200505241621.j4OGLHOu023617@dewey.classiccmp.org> 16. VCF-ism, "Sellam is the center of his own universe." :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Handy Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: zip Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 20 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >>>Especially for long term archiving, I think that things like simple, >>>open formats are more important than making sure that everyone's >>>grandma can figure out how to use the archive... ie, assuming that >>>the person has a grasp of being able to learn new things, and some >>>idea of logic are IMO reasonable assumptions. >>> >>> >>You alos need to consider what is the most likely sort of person to >>want to access this archive. It's an archive of boot disks, PROMs, etc >>for what are _now_ somewhat obscure computers, and which will >>presumably be even more obscure in the future. The sort of person to >>need that sort of data is likely to have quite a bit of computer >>knowledge already, and is not going to have problesm with tracking >>down a copy of gnu tar or similar.... >> >> > >Future computer historians (or even current ones for that matter) won't >necessarily have the computer skills necessary to track down or even >use tar. > > Why is it assumed that people in the future will be complete idiots? Like current library technicians, who cannot possibly figure out the technology of books that were printed more than 100 years ago. It's impossible for them to figure out how to "turn the page", and are struggling with the strange concept of "letters". And those "book" things don't even taste very good. These stupid people won't have any concept of a computer, so it is unlikely that they will be able to read a tape, cd, etc. You will have to carve the data on stone blocks in foot high letters. Would they even know of "English"? You better make sure that the data has been converted into cartoons without captions, like those "spy-vs-spy" ones, because they will be too dumb to handle anything more complex than that. The cartoons will probably be stretching the limits of their minuscule brain-power. >It's not just technical people who will be interested in this stuff. > > It will also interest the priests, like the Spanish priests who demanded that all the Inca codex's be destroyed, and the people brought all they could find to the priests to be burned; they couldn't read them, thus they were obviously about devil warship. So, you better hide the archive so that it cannot be found by priests, or anyone who might know any priests; they cannot possibly understand tar format, thus they will assume it must be evil and destroy it. And to make sure they won't actively search it out, you better make sure it confirms to all possible religious beliefs: 1. The earth is flat. 2. The sun and planets go around the earth. 3. Rome is the center of the universe. 4. China is the center of the universe. 5. Mexico is the center of the universe. 6. Mount Olympus is the center of the universe. 7. The world was created in 7 days. 8. The world was created from Budda's navel. 9. The stars are mounted on a fixed celestial globe. 10. There is no such thing as evolution. 11. It's Ok, even required, to kill anyone of another religion. 12. Killing them in the most brutal, slow, and painful ways will gain you brownie points in the next life. 13. Oral sex isn't sex. 14. Microsoft is the center of the universe. 15. The earth sits on the back of a giant tortoise. ... From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed May 18 15:19:04 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:19:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: 11/60 stuff on ebay Message-ID: <28583893.1116447545101.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> AK6DN on ebay (Don North) is reading the digests of this list. As Al indicated, I did have some involvement with the 11/60 (I wrote the microdiagnostic code and the FP macro diagnostics). I have lost my copies of these two over the last 30 yrs (go figure) and wanted to replace them. I do have an old hard copy of the FP11-E hardware macrodiagnostic (DQFPE) which can be scanned as well. Any 11/60 (or other -11 doc for that matter) doc I get via EBAY will be made available for bitsavers scanning (or hard copies if so desired) so no need to worry about it getting hoarded in some private archive. BTW I was also involved in writing microcode for the 11/74 commercial instruction set option, but this product was cancelled before it shipped. Don North ak6dn at mindspring.com > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:44:31 +0200 > From: Gooijen H > Subject: RE: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > Hello Al, > > thanks very much for the reply. > I am posting the reply to the list, so that others are informed too. > I am not 100% clear what you mean with the last sentence. > However, it looks that the documents will be available for bitsavers > and that is good enough for me. If needed, I will support (donate) > for the good cause :~) > > thanks! > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of aek at bitsavers.org > > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 14:34 > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > > > > ak6dn is Don North, a friend of mine and one of the people > > who worked on the 11/60 and 11/74 > > > > If he is outbid or sniped, I will get these documents for him. > From korpela at gmail.com Wed May 18 15:34:57 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 13:34:57 -0700 Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> References: <428A783B.20201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Is there a reason to settle on a single format rather than two? Store both a zip file and a gzipped tar file. (Or, for that matter, why only keep a single copy of an archive)? A cheap ($100) hard drive holds about 312,000 uncompressed DS/SD 5.25" floppy images. Next year's drive will hold 500K. I'd guess that's enough for every CP/M software package ever published (plus source code) with room left over for every paper tape currently in existence and a few VMS distributions. I usually store a zip file, a .tar.bz2 file and a bz2 compressed Floppy/CD image where applicable. Copy protected CDs are a problem because I don't know of an open format, so I'm currently using VirtualDrive to make backup images of them. Compressed ISOs work fine for unprotected disks. My current (home) archiving technique is to have two networked RAID-1 setups. One is old technology (in the case a pair of 30GB drives). The other is newer tech (a pair of 100GB drives). I've just ordered a pair of 400G drives to replace the 30G drives. When they arrive, I'll archive the 30G drives to tape, I'll copy everything from the 100G on to the new drives. The the 100G drives become read only, and the 400G drives become the active archive. The 30G drives go into sealed CO2 storage. The active archive always contains a copy of the older archives and gets backed up regularly. When 1.5TB drives hit the market, the process repeats itself (probably with new hardware, since there might not be 1.5TB ATA drives). If an archive format conversion is required (as was for .ar[ck] to .zip or .tar.gz to .tar.bz2), it's easy enough for a script to handle the job. Since I also keep source code to gtar, gzip, and an unzip on the drives and executables in for every machine and OS I've ever used, things should be recoverable, if kept up to date. Eric On 5/17/05, Al Kossow wrote: > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > can handle tar files... > > -- > > Writing a program to unpack a tar archive is not difficult. > > The problem I see with zip is the single table of contents at the end. > Did you try corrupting THAT with a hex editor? > > The file headers in a tar archive appear in front of each file. It is > generally possible to resync after errors in the decoding stream. > > From nick at computer-history.org Wed May 18 16:47:58 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (computer-history.org) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:47:58 -0500 Subject: HP 9000/T520 Systems available in St. Louis - Borderline Vintage but w/14 Processors! Message-ID: <015f01c55bf3$4197dfe0$7a00a8c0@Millers> If anyone is interested in newer HP equipment I know of two HP 9000/T520 systems available free for pickup in St. Louis. Currently all 14 processors are in one cabinet, the other is empty. I do not believe there are any other peripherals included. I will be arranging the pickup for the owner of the systems so please contact me off-line if you are interested. Thanks, Nick From north at alum.mit.edu Wed May 18 23:22:54 2005 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 21:22:54 -0700 Subject: 11/60 docs on ebay Message-ID: AK6DN on ebay (Don North) is reading the digests of this list. As Al indicated, I did have some involvement with the 11/60 (I wrote the microdiagnostic code and the FP macro diagnostics). I have lost my copies of these two over the last 30 yrs (go figure) and wanted to replace them. I do have an old hard copy of the FP11-E hardware macrodiagnostic (DQFPE) which can be scanned as well. Any 11/60 (or other -11 doc for that matter) doc I get via EBAY will be made available for bitsavers scanning (or hard copies if so desired) so no need to worry about it getting hoarded in some private archive. BTW I was also involved in writing microcode for the 11/74 commercial instruction set option, but this product was cancelled before it shipped. The 11/74 blew the pants off the newly announced 11/780 when it ran commercial Cobol ... as long as your program fit in 64K :-) Don North ak6dn _at_ mindspring _dot_ com north _at_ alum _dot_ mit _dot_ edu > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:44:31 +0200 > From: Gooijen H > Subject: RE: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > Hello Al, > > thanks very much for the reply. > I am posting the reply to the list, so that others are informed too. > I am not 100% clear what you mean with the last sentence. > However, it looks that the documents will be available for bitsavers > and that is good enough for me. If needed, I will support (donate) > for the good cause :~) > > thanks! > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of aek at bitsavers.org > > Sent: woensdag 18 mei 2005 14:34 > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: question about 11/60 documentation on eBay > > > > > > ak6dn is Don North, a friend of mine and one of the people > > who worked on the 11/60 and 11/74 > > > > If he is outbid or sniped, I will get these documents for him. > From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 19 05:11:32 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:11:32 +0200 Subject: Need chain printer like font In-Reply-To: <094101c55b3e$30907280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <094101c55b3e$30907280$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005 02:11:49 +0200, John Allain wrote: > Is TrueType an open format at all? > I have been interested in building my own fonts for decades > at this point. > It is open in the sense that specifications to make a font or a font renderer are openly available. The easiest way to make fonts in either TT, PS or the new common superset Open Type is to use Font Forge, a free font editor which is really good. http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/license.html -- Bj?rn From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Thu May 19 08:06:09 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 08:06:09 -0500 Subject: FS: IBM 5155 Portable PC Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EA32A6D@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I have an IBM 5155 with various peripheries that I would like to part with. Some of these include both IDE and SCSI 8 bit cards, a 2MB EMS RAM board, i/o cards, etc. The machine has been upgraded to 640KB of base memory. Email me for a list if you are interested. Asking price for the whole lot is $250, but I'm negotiable. Julian From thomas.seidel at gmail.com Thu May 19 09:47:07 2005 From: thomas.seidel at gmail.com (Thomas Seidel) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:47:07 +0200 Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <3eaba6ef05051907474ecb51e1@mail.gmail.com> Hello, May I point you to http://www.langzeitarchivierung.de/index.php?newlang=eng, a German project how to preserve digital resources for the next centuries... As I know from the project guys, keeping the data stored is easy (you can move them from disk to disk, from image to image), but how to use the data in the future is really a big problem... Just my 10cc --Thomas P.S. I'm new on this list. It's common to introduce oneself? From aek at spies.com Thu May 19 12:11:52 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 10:11:52 -0700 Subject: uA3656 Message-ID: <025a1de54887e9c0eb1a063f39d05d4c@spies.com> I have a catalog from 1969 which lists their MOS parts in the 3xxx range. They didn't make RAM in 1969, will try to dig out an early 70s catalog to try to find 3656's (I'm guessing they will be in the '72 or '73 ones). From cmcfadden5 at comcast.net Thu May 19 13:31:36 2005 From: cmcfadden5 at comcast.net (mcfadden) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:31:36 -0500 Subject: Tektronix, TI and Sony gear available in Kansas City Message-ID: <002901c55ca0$fdccd730$6601a8c0@moms> I have the following classic computer gear available. Tektronix 4205 missing keyboard came from Harmon Electronics Tektronix 4052 missing the cover, somebody disposed of the cover before I got it. Tektronix 4209 + keyboard, big honker came from Allied Signal Tektronix 604 monitor Tektronix 632 monitor Tektronix 650-1 Matrix Monitor Sony Series 35 Model 10 with 2 internal floppy drives I seem to remember that this can run CP/M. Texas Instruments System 1100 gray tower CPU I'm cleaning the garage and this was on top of the piles, more later. Mike c m c f a d d e n 5 at c o m c a s t dot n e t From cmcfadden5 at comcast.net Thu May 19 14:07:40 2005 From: cmcfadden5 at comcast.net (mcfadden) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:07:40 -0500 Subject: older semiconductor manuals available in Kansas City Message-ID: <003a01c55ca6$09c243e0$6601a8c0@moms> Fairchild Semiconductor 1. Opto electronics handbook Feb 1973 2. TTL data book June 1972 3. Discrete Products databook July 1973 4. The Linear Integrated Circuits Data Catalog Feb 1973 5. MOS/CCD data book 1975 6. Condensed Catalog LSI microcomputers memories CCD May 1978 7. Optimos Sep 1972 8. TTL Applications Handbook August 1973 9. Optoelectronics data book 1978 10. FAST (Fairchild Advanced Schottky TTL) 1980 11. TTL Databook 1978 12. Hybrid Databook 1978 Signetics 1. Full Product Line Reference Oct 1979 2. Military Product Reference Guide May 1979 3. Logic - TTL Specifications, military Summary 1978 4. Analog Specifications, military summary 1979 5. Bipolar & MOS memory Jan1979 6. Analog specifications, applications, military summary Aug 1977 Siemens 1. Zener Diode Reference Guide EEM 86 87 Volume W Mike c m c f a d d e n 5 at c o m c a s t dot n e t From cmcfadden5 at comcast.net Thu May 19 15:31:36 2005 From: cmcfadden5 at comcast.net (mcfadden) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:31:36 -0500 Subject: dec equipment available in Kansas City Message-ID: <004601c55cb1$c18590d0$6601a8c0@moms> running when shutdown 5 years ago alpha server 2100 monitor VRT19-HA tape drive TS05 monitor VR297-DA also several dec terminals Mike c m c f a d d e n 5 a t c o m c a s t d o t net From korpela at gmail.com Thu May 19 17:32:00 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:32:00 -0700 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> References: <200505172220.PAA21869@clulw009.amd.com> <1116369783.25648.101.camel@weka.localdomain> <428BA256.3040403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I don't know about zip, but the limit in tar files for most unixes (and anything else that uses gnu tar on an OS that supports files larger than 2GB) has been 2^63-1 bytesr. It's been that way for at least 5 years now. I'd be surprised is there wasn't a 64bit file offset zip version. For gzip, you need a patched version of 1.2.4, or one of the 1.3.x betas. This has also been available for some time Eric On 5/18/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > If it *is* portable, it might seem a better choice for archives over > > tar, simply because more systems these days can handle zip files than > > can handle tar files... > > "Portable" is in the eye of the beholder. Both formats don't support sizes > over 4 gigabytes (unsigned 32-bit dword) so I don't use them any more. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From infomagic at mail.localisp.com Thu May 19 22:47:48 2005 From: infomagic at mail.localisp.com (infomagic ) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:47:48 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Rubber drive wheel for HP 9144 tape drive Message-ID: <200505192347.AA3678666908@mail.localisp.com> Look up a company called "Star-Glo", at 2 Carlton Ave., E. Rutherford, NJ. I pass their building often, but I don't have a phone # or email. I'd think a web search would locate them. They fabricate dozens of compounds, and rubber seals and gaskets for everything from glass jars to submarine hatches. They also fabricate such parts as the rods in printers that have the molded-on rubber (or whatever) rollers. Good luck! -John ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.localisp.com From dm561 at torfree.net Fri May 20 00:18:01 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:18:01 -0400 Subject: Disk archival techniques Message-ID: <01C55CD9.C88141E0@H80.C223.tor.velocet.net> ---------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:03 -0500 From: "Randy McLaughlin" Subject: Re: Disk archival techniques Using one manufacturer as an example - Cromemco used bipolar PROMs and made their own numbers - 749XX. This makes it confusing but easy to spot when seen. They would use the chips on multiple boards keeping the same programming by chipnumber i.e. 74901 could be used on a floppy controller or memory card and still be interchangeable (I just made up an example but I've seen common 749XX across different types of cards). Randy www.s100-manuals.com -------------Reply: As a matter of fact, I just dumped several Cromemco PROMs a while ago for archival use; what's the recommendation for 4 bit PROMs? 8 bits with hex F's in the upper nibble, or? And are we going to be able to find blank bipolar PROMS or PALs in 10 or 20 years? mike From dwhit at dwhittaker.com Fri May 20 10:06:56 2005 From: dwhit at dwhittaker.com (dwhit) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:06:56 -0600 Subject: MicroVAX Help? Message-ID: <000001c55d4d$91bb18b0$43884044@nunuab4l7txmfk> I am purchasing a MicroVAX Model 655QS-B2. Can anyone point me to a good source of documentation? I am new to all this and have no idea how to even get it running. I am told that the only thing about it is there is no power cord. I don?t even know what kind of power cord it uses? Anyone able to help? Please email starmaster(at)gmail.com Thanks -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date: 5/20/2005 From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 20 11:31:34 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:31:34 -0500 Subject: dec equipment available in Kansas City Message-ID: Originally sent from my home account and I think they didn't get through running when shutdown 5 years ago alpha server 2100 monitor VRT19-HA tape drive TS05 monitor VR297-DA also several dec terminals make me an offer Mike m a m c f a d d e n a t c m h d o t e d u From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 20 11:33:17 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:33:17 -0500 Subject: older semiconductor manuals available in Kansas City Message-ID: Originally sent from my home account and I think they didn't get through > Fairchild Semiconductor > > 1. Opto electronics handbook Feb 1973 > 2. TTL data book June 1972 > 3. Discrete Products databook July 1973 > 4. The Linear Integrated Circuits Data Catalog Feb 1973 > 5. MOS/CCD data book 1975 > 6. Condensed Catalog LSI microcomputers memories CCD May 1978 > 7. Optimos Sep 1972 > 8. TTL Applications Handbook August 1973 > 9. Optoelectronics data book 1978 > 10. FAST (Fairchild Advanced Schottky TTL) 1980 > 11. TTL Databook 1978 > 12. Hybrid Databook 1978 > > Signetics > 1. Full Product Line Reference Oct 1979 > 2. Military Product Reference Guide May 1979 > 3. Logic - TTL Specifications, military Summary 1978 > 4. Analog Specifications, military summary 1979 > 5. Bipolar & MOS memory Jan1979 > 6. Analog specifications, applications, military summary Aug 1977 > > Siemens > 1. Zener Diode Reference Guide > > EEM 86 87 > Volume W Mike m a m c f a d d e n at c m h dot e d u From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 20 11:36:52 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:36:52 -0500 Subject: Tektronix, TI and Sony gear available in Kansas City Message-ID: Originally sent from my home account I have the following classic computer gear available. Tektronix 4205 missing keyboard Tektronix 4052 missing the cover, somebody disposed of the cover before I got it. Tektronix 4209 + keyboard, big honker Tektronix 604 monitor Tektronix 632 monitor Tektronix 650-1 Matrix Monitor Sony Series 35 Model 10 with 2 internal floppy drives I seem to remember that this can run CP/M. Texas Instruments System 1100 gray tower CPU with external disk drives I'm cleaning the garage and this was on top of the piles, more later. Make me an offer Mike m a m c f a d d e n at c m h dot e d u From bv at norbionics.com Mon May 23 05:21:27 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:21:27 +0200 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <20050523000327.S990@localhost> References: <42905921.4050800@gjcp.net> <20050523000327.S990@localhost> Message-ID: <0bd5b5bc39d96036a2c8551d393d697c@norbionics.com> On 23 May, 2005, at 09:20, Tom Jennings wrote: > > Successful commercial core memories require grossly underpaid > philipino housewives or other exploitable labor; welcome to the > fruits of capitalism. At the end of the core era (or maybe a little after the end), NCR used "knitting machines" to make core planes. They even had an accounting machine where the entire logic was core based (inhibit core was their name for the technology). The last magnetic memory (I think) for the NCR Century was "plated wire". They used cobalt-plated wires instead of rings, it was much easier to manufacture but the S/N ratio on the read wire was terrible. NCR was much into cobalt, they also used cobalt-plated disks instead of the usual iron oxide coatings of the day for some high-end drives. The disks were shiny blueish black. If you just want to play and make a 4 x 4 core or something, I > wonder if you couldn't get decent hysteresis with some other > ferrite product. You could compensate for a "poor" core with good > electronics and/or brute force. I haven't looked at a toroid spec > sheet in ages and not for hysteresis. My guess is that the ferrite rings made by TDK for noise suppression should work OK. They will obviously be lossy (they are designed to be), but they should have fairly high hysteresis. As long as you do not work them too hard, they should not get hotter than a P4 Prescott :-) -- -bv From andyda at mac.com Mon May 23 21:13:05 2005 From: andyda at mac.com (Andy Dannelley) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:13:05 -0700 Subject: cc65 for AIM 6, paper tape format text files? Message-ID: <5D662A1A-CBF9-11D9-9740-000D936E90CA@mac.com> Hi Thanks again for all the help and encouragement my AIM65 lives. The last H/W problem was serial comm between my Mac and the AIM 65. Mike Stein devoted quite a bit of time and email helping me to get it working. Now I can transfer data between the AIM 65 and the Mac. Now all I need is a way to convert cc65 object files into Mos Technology Paper Tape Format text files so I can transfer programs assembled/compiled on the Mac to the AIM and use the Mac to store data from the AIM in paper tape format text files. I have been asking around but I can't find anyone who has written a converter to convert from cc65 object file format to paper tape format text files. Anybody here ever done such or have any info which might help me do it myself? Any help much appreciated, Andy From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 23:15:30 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:15:30 -0400 Subject: Also ... RE: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <200505240404.j4O4449T016545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505240411.j4O4BeFY016772@dewey.classiccmp.org> Maybe he'd consider donating parts of the collection to MARCH. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:08 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Anyone know this guy!? And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it appears he did the same thing in 2002: http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From GOOI at oce.nl Tue May 24 12:04:08 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:04:08 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CD5@gd-mail03.oce.nl> RE: PDP 11/45 light chaser >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> The drawback of the light chaser program that uses the RESET Gooijen> instruction is that the heads load and unload of the RX02 Gooijen> drive in my PDP-11/40. That clunck-clunck sound is not Gooijen> pretty for a longer while ... > So start up the KW11L clock, point its vector to an RTI, and use a > WAIT instead of a RESET... > > paul Hmm, I thought that the RESET instruction provides the ~100 ms delay so that the lights are visible (on the 11/35 they are LEDs anyway) but this instruction also asserts the RESET/ (BUS INIT-L ?) signal. That is what makes the RX drive clunk - at least that's what I thought. - Henk, PA8PDP. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 24 12:35:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EAI Analog Computers Message-ID: <200505241735.KAA26891@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >I have a pair of EAI TR-48 analog computers that I really need to part >with. These are circa 1960 machines. From Mr. Cowards site: > >Operating range: +/- 10 volts DC >Computing Elements: Up to 58 DC amplifiers > Up to 115 Coefficient setting potentimeters >Options: Up to 24 integrators > >These are large machines, so if you are located far away from Carmel, NY, >you would need to call a mover (I could deliver withing a few hundred >miles with some arm twisting). One machine has the original operating >desk, plus there are a few extra patchpanels, lotsa cords, modules, and >other good stuff. > >Any interest on this list? If so, I should start digging these out of >storage. > >These are for sale, but I would consider trades of old mainframe or >minicomputer stuff. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > Hi William It is on the wrong side of the US for me :( Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue May 24 12:48:54 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:48:54 +0100 Subject: PDP11/23+ Error code question References: Message-ID: <000401c56088$db084c20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > When the unit is powered up, there is no output to the terminal, and the > > processor fault LED's give a code of 14, which is listed as "Scope Loop" - > > does anyone know what this signifies? > > The original meaning of 'scope loop' in DEC diagnostics was a tight loop > that kept on accessing some failing piece of hardware so you could use a > non-storage 'scope to debug it. > > I would assume, based on the fact it's code 14, that it's fairly early on > in the power-on diagnostics of your 11/23+ system, and that there's > smething fairly fuandamentally wrong with the CPU/memory/bus. > > -tony > I got a little further with this today: I put the machine back to it's original configuration, with all the cards in, and returned the DIP switches to their original position. The machine then runs through its POST, and tries to boot from the network (alternatly off the two cards!), and is happy to sit there in that position. After asking around, I found a copy of the standalone test instruction for the 11/23's on this system (there were around 50 between the main system and the test one). This gave instructions for installing a disk controller (RL02), and altering theCPU switches to get the system to boot from disk. I tried this, but I can't get it to work - yet! The interesting piece of information from the documents was, the CPU has non-standard boot ROMs, so the DIP settings in the 11/23+ manual do not apply - hence the machine fails with error code 14. I will try to get the machine to run the existing RL02 boot, as this was intended to allow you to run XXDP, and also RSX11 (there are some specialist diagnostics written to run under RSX11, so if I can find the right disks, I should have a ready built operating system!). If not, I believe there are copies of the original boot ROMs available on the net. Jim. From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 24 13:07:10 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:07:10 -0500 Subject: Disk archival techniques References: <01C55CD9.C88141E0@H80.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: <004901c5608b$6b8fbd30$673dd7d1@randy> From: "M H Stein" Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 12:18 AM > ---------------Original Message: > Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:21:03 -0500 > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > > Using one manufacturer as an example - Cromemco used bipolar PROMs and > made > their own numbers - 749XX. This makes it confusing but easy to spot when > seen. They would use the chips on multiple boards keeping the same > programming by chipnumber i.e. 74901 could be used on a floppy controller > or > memory card and still be interchangeable (I just made up an example but > I've > seen common 749XX across different types of cards). > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > -------------Reply: > > As a matter of fact, I just dumped several Cromemco PROMs a while ago for > archival use; > what's the recommendation for 4 bit PROMs? 8 bits with hex F's in the > upper nibble, or? > > And are we going to be able to find blank bipolar PROMS or PALs in 10 or > 20 years? > > mike In the future as today an adaptor to current technology is possible, but only if the data is saved. How many of us have ever created a daughter card to adapt a flash ROM to a board needing a 2708 etc. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 24 13:16:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:16:46 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CD5@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <17043.28558.10788.427783@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> RE: PDP 11/45 light chaser >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> The drawback of the light chaser program that uses the RESET Gooijen> instruction is that the heads load and unload of the RX02 Gooijen> drive in my PDP-11/40. That clunck-clunck sound is not Gooijen> pretty for a longer while ... >> So start up the KW11L clock, point its vector to an RTI, and use a >> WAIT instead of a RESET... >> >> paul Gooijen> Hmm, I thought that the RESET instruction provides the ~100 Gooijen> ms delay so that the lights are visible (on the 11/35 they Gooijen> are LEDs anyway) but this instruction also asserts the Gooijen> RESET/ (BUS INIT-L ?) signal. That is what makes the RX Gooijen> drive clunk - at least that's what I thought. Exactly right. That's why I suggested WAIT -- it will pause until the next interrupt, and leave the INIT line alone. WAIT, of course, is what you'd find in the idle loop in a real OS: NULJOB: MOV R2,R1 ; Reset delay counter 10$: WAIT ; Now wait... SOB R1,10$ ; for specified delay ROL R0 ; Shift the lights BR NULJOB ; and continue paul From joe at barrera.org Tue May 24 13:24:56 2005 From: joe at barrera.org (Joe Barrera) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:24:56 -0700 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524103022.05111a58@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524103022.05111a58@mail> Message-ID: <42937178.7060605@barrera.org> John Foust wrote: > He's only buying on this ID. 728 feedbacks from sellers. Zero > feedbacks from anything he's sold. Am I reading that right? They're > building a museum? Write 'dkdkk' a note. "Dick Dick"? What sort of alias is that? - Joe -- It's hard to live in this country In the present state of things Your body gets pulled right back You get a terrible urge to drink From marvin at rain.org Tue May 24 13:42:33 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:42:33 -0700 Subject: uA3656 Message-ID: <42937599.634E9612@rain.org> I checked the 1977 IC Master, and the uA3656 is not listed. It does say that the uA prefix is the Fairchild linear series. In going through the Fairchild catalogs, I too have been unable to find any references, and am now curious if the number is correct. > I have a catalog from 1969 which lists their MOS parts in the 3xxx > range. > They didn't make RAM in 1969, will try to dig out an > early 70s catalog to try to find 3656's (I'm guessing they will be in > the '72 or '73 ones). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 15:02:50 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:02:50 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: <17043.13233.153694.770146@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <002f01c5606c$f35510e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4293886A.8000142@cs.ubc.ca> John Allain wrote: > > >> Are you talking about the November 1970 issue of National > >> Geopgraphic? > > > Can't be -- Illiac 4 was either not yet in existence, or alive > > and well -- certainly not scrapped. > > There are two articles in the mentioning > November 1970 "Behold the Computer Revolution" > October 1982 The Chip Nov 70 issue has a picture of ILLIAC IV being assembled. Oct 82 issue has a picture of ILLIAC IV being scrapped. Coincidence, or intention on the part of the writers of the second article? (... sent a message about this last week, perhaps it was lost, pardon if it's repetitious) From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 15:04:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about PDF manipulation Message-ID: This is sort of off-topic but it's for a Computer History Museum project that involves old computer brochures. We have a bunch of PDF's that have scanned brochure images contained within including the OCR'd text. Unfortunately, the PDF's were created with images files that are much too large. The images need to be extracted, re-sized, then re-inserted into the PDF. They can't use the original photos because the ones inside the PDF have been cropped and edited (independent of the originals...don't ask). Is there a combination of utilities (i.e. ImageMagick, tumble, etc.) that can automate this instead of having to re-create each PDF from scratch? There are hundreds. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From palazzol at comcast.net Tue May 24 15:24:26 2005 From: palazzol at comcast.net (Frank Palazzolo) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:24:26 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> Hello, There was a link posted on this list in the last month that I can't find now. The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon bulbs as logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost it. Anyone seen that site? Thanks, -Frank From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 24 15:29:48 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> References: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Frank Palazzolo wrote: > The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon bulbs as > logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost it. Anyone seen > that site? I don't know if this is what you saw, but here's a link to the "GE Glow Lamp Manual", from 1965. Lots of pages on logic circuits using neons. http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/t.pl/library1965geglowlamps.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 24 15:31:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:31:36 +0000 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116966696.4586.61.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 13:04 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is there a combination of utilities (i.e. ImageMagick, tumble, etc.) that > can automate this instead of having to re-create each PDF from scratch? > There are hundreds. Hmmm, I've never tried it, but you might find that ImageMagick will Just Work if you have it installed - convert -resize 50% foo.pdf foo-output.pdf I'd try it here now, but I've discovered that I've broken something on this system and it complains that it can't find libgimpprint.so.1 in order to parse a PDF file. Quite why ImageMagick wants a gimp print library in order to decode a PDF file is beyond me. Welcome to modern- day Linux dependency hell :-( cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 24 15:34:12 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:34:12 -0500 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> References: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> Message-ID: <200505241534.12986.pat@computer-refuge.org> Frank Palazzolo declared on Tuesday 24 May 2005 03:24 pm: > Hello, > > There was a link posted on this list in the last month that I can't > find now. > > The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon > bulbs as logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost > it. Anyone seen that site? You mean the stuff in this zip file? http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/neon_lamp_logic/lamp.zip Judging by the date on the file, it was 2 years ago, not last month, that we were talking about it... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 24 15:52:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:52:09 -0400 Subject: uA3656 In-Reply-To: <42937599.634E9612@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050524165209.009d5b50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yeap that's definitely the number on it. I have two of them and they're both clearly marked "uA3656D" Joe At 11:42 AM 5/24/05 -0700, Marvin wrote: > >I checked the 1977 IC Master, and the uA3656 is not listed. It does say >that the uA prefix is the Fairchild linear series. In going through the >Fairchild catalogs, I too have been unable to find any references, and >am now curious if the number is correct. > > >> I have a catalog from 1969 which lists their MOS parts in the 3xxx >> range. >> They didn't make RAM in 1969, will try to dig out an >> early 70s catalog to try to find 3656's (I'm guessing they will be in >> the '72 or '73 ones). > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 16:02:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <4292539E.8080901@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 May 2005, Tim Riker wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >>That's not the definition of an "archive". You're thinking of a library. > > > > I've been trying to explain the difference between an archive > > and distribution of data. So far, they just don't get it. > > Sure, I get it. A Library is an Archive that is Useful. =) An archive is meant for the preservation of artifacts and information. The materials it contains are permanent, and usually older or outdated. A library is much more ephemeral. Its contents constantly rotate, migrate, and dissipate, and regnerate; it changes over time. An archive does not: it just keeps accumulating materials and rarely (if ever) deletes content. An archive is as useful as a library. However, an archive is more likely to provide historic materials, whereas a library contains more current information for study. This is the difference. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 16:06:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better indexing on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <4292698D.4070905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > a much better delimiting character > for anything you do is the vertical line | because it rarely if ever shows > up in text either machine generated or hand-written > > -- > > There are four of them in your .signature Yes, because they are delimiting the fields in my signature of course. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From James at jdfogg.com Tue May 24 16:11:44 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:11:44 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon > > bulbs as logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost > > it. Anyone seen that site? > > You mean the stuff in this zip file? > http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/neon_lamp_logic/lamp.zip I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 24 16:14:11 2005 From: roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk (Roger Bisson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:14:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sage MainLAN ISA Adapters Message-ID: <20050524211411.34022.qmail@web86901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Folks, I have two Sage MainLAN ISA adapters dating back to 1988. MainLAN was an early local area network system based, it appears, on some form of serial daisy chain. I seem to remember having stored away the manuals, and possibly the disks/drivers for these boards (for DOS, of course) and would like to know if anybody is interested in these boards. If not ... they'll probably become landfill - but I'd just like to check before I bin a bit of history :-) Roger ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 24 16:14:14 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:14:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP11/23+ Error code question In-Reply-To: "Jim Beacon" "Re: PDP11/23+ Error code question" (May 24, 18:48) References: <000401c56088$db084c20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <10505242214.ZM24375@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 24 2005, 18:48, Jim Beacon wrote: > I will try to get the machine to run the existing RL02 boot, as this was > intended to allow you to run XXDP, and also RSX11 (there are some specialist > diagnostics written to run under RSX11, so if I can find the right disks, I > should have a ready built operating system!). If not, I believe there are > copies of the original boot ROMs available on the net. Yes, for example my collection at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ The originals would have been 23-339E2 and 23-340E2. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 24 16:23:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:23:59 -0400 Subject: New AIM-65! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050524172359.00972a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Found this today. I opened the case and immediately recognized the AIM-65 even though it was under the panel. Bought it, brought home, opened it up and sure enough it IS an AIM-65. It powers up and appears to work. BTW the machine appears to be a magnetic card encoder/reader. Paperwork with it indicates that it came from a nuclear weapons plant that's operated by GE and located here in Florida. . No text or links but the picture titles should clearly indicate what each picture is. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 24 16:31:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <200505242131.OAA27005@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "James Fogg" > >> > The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon >> > bulbs as logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost >> > it. Anyone seen that site? >> >> You mean the stuff in this zip file? >> http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/neon_lamp_logic/lamp.zip > > >I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. > Hi As tunnel diodes maybe but not your general purpose diode. They used the negative resistance characteristics of the neon lamps to create a 2 state circuit. The difficulty was that not only did this region drift with aging but it was also effected by the occasional radioactive particle. The negative resistance region is small as well, making it difficult to make circuits that worked. For logic functions, diodes in general lack the ability to invert. This is critical for any computing of reasonable complexity. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 24 16:30:34 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:30:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: "James Fogg" "RE: Neon bulb logic elements link?" (May 24, 17:11) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <10505242230.ZM24421@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 24 2005, 17:11, James Fogg wrote: > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. No, neons happily pass AC. You must be thinking of something else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 17:05:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <4292AC88.6040902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > > And if so, can you explain what he's smoking? > > http://www.clelsplace.com/eli/ > > > > The press release attached to this link is dated May 21, 2005. Oddly, it > > appears he did the same thing in 2002: > > http://yahoo.pcworld.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,104772,00.asp > > Looking at his ebay sales history, he is moving less than $100/day, > probably closer to $50 long term. Some days he clears 20 items, others > 0/1/2/3. Let's be generous and say $100/day is sustainable. For his > $200K asking price, it would take 2000 days, or 5.5 years to recover the > investment. If he gets the $1M he hopes, it would take 25 years at > $100/day to recover the investment. > > Of course, it would be a lot longer than that, since there would be > storage costs and taxes to be paid. That is a lot of work and a long > time to get back to break even. And you don't think he's figured this out? Why do you think he's trying to find a sucker to take it at $199K? My guess is he's descended from old P.T. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 17:08:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP DC100 tapes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050524064647.00996d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I'm almost certain that the programs are stored in a tokenized format > and the "lesser" machines don't have all the BASIC commands that the 9845 > does therefore they can't translate 9845 programs back into text. I read an > article about this somewhere in a HP manual. I think it was in one of the > HP 9845 manuals. I have some here at the house I'll look through them and > see if I can find it. I'm just after any raw data on the tape. My guess is that it is data and not program, but I'm not sure until I can see it :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 17:10:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <17043.13233.153694.770146@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> On Thu, 19 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Lot of what is rare stuff in that pic (like the RF08 on his > >> left..) > >> > >> By the way, the original plac ethat picture was used was an old > >> National Geographic. I recall the same page has a picture of one > >> of the piles as ILLIAC 4 was being scrapped. > > Vintage> Are you talking about the November 1970 issue of National > Vintage> Geopgraphic? > > Can't be -- Illiac 4 was either not yet in existence, or alive and > well -- certainly not scrapped. I remember it was a running system > while I was at the U of Illinois in the late 1970s -- occasionally > visiting the building where it was supposed to have been installed. > (It ended up on a military base instead, because DoD was paying for > the machine and decided they didn't like to put it on a campus full of > hippy protestors... but by then the building had already been > constructed.) Right. It ended up at Moffett Field in Mountain View, California, which is how the Computer History Museum got it as part of its collection (and it now sits on display in the Visible Storage area). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue May 24 17:18:55 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:18:55 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4293A84F.nail6T01V7170@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Is there a combination of utlities (i.e. ImageMagick, tumble, etc.) that > can automate this instead of having to recreate each PDF from scratch? Your two best friends: 1. Ghostscript. It'll take PDF's as input and produce anything you want (postscript, pnm, png, etc.) as output. 2. The CPAN module PDF::API2. For truly structured documents where you want to manipulate the innards this is heaven. Very nice object-oriented interface. I suspect Ghostscript will be of more immediate use because it sounds like each PDF page has very little structure and is simply a big bitmap image. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 17:16:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > ...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? > > I do not think this is completely unreasonable. There seem to be lots of > G-15 fans out there (for one, it is one of the tube computers one could > wish for, and possibly even obtain and run.) I'm not sure who dkdkk (the buyer) is but he/she's probably here either actively or lurking. At any rate, he/she buys a lot of stuff through eBay, and it is consistently what I would consider "stupid money". I'm sure they're happy with their purchases, especially if money is no object to them, but its really driving up the price of stuff unnecessarily. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 17:16:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <200505241049.37520.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 24 May 2005 10:07, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > ...or is this getting a bit out of hand by now? > > It's just you. :) > > Thanks for playing. Thrrt. It's a bit silly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 24 17:36:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:36:13 -0700 Subject: Is it just me... Message-ID: <4293AC5D.8080300@bitsavers.org> its really driving up the price of stuff unnecessarily. -- This (dkdkk, ed sharpe, sassyscottie, et al.) has started to really impact what I can get to scan. I have to carefully consider if this is the only copy of a document I know of, or if there are other sources that I might have access to in the future. It makes me feel really great to be giving this stuff away too, after having paid through the nose for it (the latest example being the IBM 1410 CE manual). From vrs at msn.com Tue May 24 17:37:43 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:37:43 -0700 Subject: Fw: "a taker for the ASR-35?" Message-ID: Hi, I have been in correspondence with Marvin Jones (not a list member), and he has an ASR-35 he needs to give away pronto. You'd need to pick it up in Gunnison, CO before the 10th. Is there anyone here who can help him? Or should I head over to Greenkeys and see if anyone there can help him? Vince ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin L. Jones" To: "Vince Slyngstad" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: Re: "a taker for the ASR-35?" > On Tue, 24 May 2005, Vince Slyngstad wrote: > > >> >So, did you find a taker for the ASR-35? I'd love to take that, but I > >> >can't get to you before July, so I hope someone else can take it. I'd > >> >hate to hear that it got recycled! > >> > >> Nope, no takers. Next week I pay Waste Management approx $25 to haul > >> it to the dump. True, it's too bad -- but, I gotta get on with my > >> life (and this %$#@&! move 'cross state.) > > > >Maybe you'd let me post a note to the classic computer miling list, or even > >the TTY (Greenkeys) mailing list? Surely someone wants it! > > Sure. Go ahead. I do not know those lists, myself. (Tho', I felt > there had to be some.) But, I need a guaranteed pick up of no later > than Friday, June 10 here in Gunnison, Colo. And, I need to hear > from someone, Real Soon Now, > > As you may remember: It's free, and I have KSR-35 maint./wiring doc's. > The case of 24" spools of oiled paper tape are gone. But, I have some > smaller rolls that haven't been heaved over the side, yet. > > Regards, > Jonesy > -- > | Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux > | Gunnison, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __ > | 7,703' -- 2,345m | config.com | DM68mn SK From vrs at msn.com Tue May 24 18:01:05 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:01:05 -0700 Subject: Is it just me... References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > I'm not sure who dkdkk (the buyer) is but he/she's probably here either > actively or lurking. At any rate, he/she buys a lot of stuff through > eBay, and it is consistently what I would consider "stupid money". I'm > sure they're happy with their purchases, especially if money is no > object to them, but its really driving up the price of stuff > unnecessarily. I know who this is, and he is *not* a list member, last time I checked. (He seemed perfectly reasonable the few times I exchanged e-mail with him.) Maybe he is unaware of us, and is trying to save the known universe on his own. Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 24 18:03:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New AIM-65! Message-ID: <200505242303.QAA27089@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > Found this today. I opened the case and immediately recognized the >AIM-65 even though it was under the panel. Bought it, brought home, opened >it up and sure enough it IS an AIM-65. It powers up and appears to work. >BTW the machine appears to be a magnetic card encoder/reader. Paperwork >with it indicates that it came from a nuclear weapons plant that's operated >by GE and located here in Florida. > > . No text or links but the picture >titles should clearly indicate what each picture is. > > Joe Hi Joe Two of the ROMs look like Rockwell code while the others look like custom ROMs. Also, are the wheels on the card reader driven or just to hold tension to the heads? Does it take a standard credit card or a cut down version? It does look like fun although missing the printer :( Dwight From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 24 18:21:48 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050524232148.13873.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> > "Dick Dick"? What sort of alias is that? I know a gentleman who has met the guy (Dennis) and tells me his initials are "DK" Strings like dkdkk are also the sort of thing you get when you mindlessly twiddle a few keys -- type "dkdkk" into Google and see how many hits of this sort you get. I think his eBay name is actually a little bit clever and amusing. --Bill From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue May 24 18:25:48 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:25:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4293B7FC.nail7I41KQEKR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > And you don't think he's figured this out? Why do you think he's > trying to find a sucker to take it at $199K? At the same time, his E-bay feedback shows that he's still buying large quantities of old games. Maybe buying more than he's selling. I suspect his "$199K" auction is to attract publicity for his other auctions, mostly. Tim. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 24 18:37:11 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050524233711.6235.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm not sure who dkdkk (the buyer) is but he/she's > probably here either > actively or lurking. At any rate, he/she buys a lot > of stuff through > eBay, and it is consistently what I would consider > "stupid money". I'm > sure they're happy with their purchases, especially > if money is no > object to them, but its really driving up the price > of stuff > unnecessarily. In all fairness, the prices he pays are only marginally more than the runner-up bidder, so he's not the only one driving up the prices. An acquaintance of mine knows 'dkdkk' through his involvment with the old Computer Museum in Boston. It's a reasonable conjecture that he might have an interest in historical preservation and scholarship. I wonder if someone like Al might want to contact him and see if something might be arranged to get his material scanned into the archives. A guy with pockets that deep snapping up so much good material would be an asset to the community if he could be brought on board. --Bill > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 18:46:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > >Future computer historians (or even current ones for that matter) won't > >necessarily have the computer skills necessary to track down or even use > >tar. > > > > > Why is it assumed that people in the future will be complete idiots? I don't know what it's like in your worldview, but mine is filled with total morons, and I have little hope for the future. Plus, and this has been expressed several times already, when you're talking about preserving information, ALWAYS EXPECT THE WORST. It is the safest approach. > Like current library technicians, who cannot possibly figure out the > technology of books that were printed more than 100 years ago. > It's impossible for them to figure out how to "turn the page", and are > struggling with the strange concept of "letters". And those "book" > things don't even taste very good. Do they know how to read a wax cylinder? Do they know how to make equipment to do so? Are they capable of doing so? Is tar any less complex a technology? What about 50-500 years from now? This is the crux of the matter. You cannot apply your current level of knowledge and understanding to what someone in the future might possess. Worldviews change: what seems common and sensible and completely logical to you today might not be so to someone in the future, so you simply cannot make this sort of assumption. > These stupid people won't have any concept of a computer, so it is > unlikely that they will be able to read a tape, cd, etc. You will have > to carve the data on stone blocks in foot high letters. So tell me then how to read the information from a Quipu. It's a simple device: just a bunch of multi-colored knotted string. If you can figure this out, there's a huge community of archaeologists who study the Incas who would erect a permanent shrine for you to celebrate your name for all eternity. > Would they even know of "English"? You better make sure that the > data has been converted into cartoons without captions, like those > "spy-vs-spy" ones, because they will be too dumb to handle anything > more complex than that. The cartoons will probably be stretching > the limits of their minuscule brain-power. The ancient Egyptians were by all measures a fairly advanced society for their place in history, yet the only reason we know how to read their heiroglyphic writings is because we found teh Rosetta Stone that basically translated it for us. Again, you cannot assume English will be known in the future. > >It's not just technical people who will be interested in this stuff. > > > > > It will also interest the priests, like the Spanish priests who demanded > that all the Inca codex's be destroyed, and the people brought all they > could find to the priests to be burned; they couldn't read them, thus > they were obviously about devil warship. Right, and this is why we don't know how to decode Quipus. Thanks for qualifying my example :) > So, you better hide the archive so that it cannot be found by priests, > or anyone who might know any priests; they cannot possibly understand > tar format, thus they will assume it must be evil and destroy it. And this is a remote possibility because...? Do you watch the news these days? Witch burnings are not far off in some parts of the US today. I hear they're still debating evolution vs. creationism. I thought we had that debated licked about 100 years ago but apparently ignorance is a more powerful force than intelligence. > And to make sure they won't actively search it out, you better > make sure it confirms to all possible religious beliefs: > > 1. The earth is flat. The Biblical support for a Flat Earth and Geocentricism http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=61 These people are still out there. > 2. The sun and planets go around the earth. > 3. Rome is the center of the universe. > 4. China is the center of the universe. > 5. Mexico is the center of the universe. > 6. Mount Olympus is the center of the universe. > 7. The world was created in 7 days. Do I even need to offer URLs? > 8. The world was created from Budda's navel. > 9. The stars are mounted on a fixed celestial globe. > 10. There is no such thing as evolution. DITTO > 11. It's Ok, even required, to kill anyone of another religion. > 12. Killing them in the most brutal, slow, and painful ways > will gain you brownie points in the next life. > 13. Oral sex isn't sex. > 14. Microsoft is the center of the universe. > 15. The earth sits on the back of a giant tortoise. These are all examples of things that people believe or do today, so I'm not sure how they can be examples that support your argument. These are all examples of ancient beliefs, some somewhat unsophisticated, that still persist in some segment or in some manner in today's world! On some issues we are even regressing (re: evolution). So it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine in the future these "truths" being subverted. Which brings me back to the one immutable truth: people are stupid; expect the worst. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 24 18:48:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:48:13 -0400 Subject: New AIM-65! In-Reply-To: <200505242303.QAA27089@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050524194813.009da610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:03 PM 5/24/05 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >> Found this today. I opened the case and immediately recognized the >>AIM-65 even though it was under the panel. Bought it, brought home, opened >>it up and sure enough it IS an AIM-65. It powers up and appears to work. >>BTW the machine appears to be a magnetic card encoder/reader. Paperwork >>with it indicates that it came from a nuclear weapons plant that's operated >>by GE and located here in Florida. >> >> . No text or links but the picture >>titles should clearly indicate what each picture is. >> >> Joe > >Hi Joe > Two of the ROMs look like Rockwell code while the others look >like custom ROMs. Also, are the wheels on the card reader >driven or just to hold tension to the heads? Does it take a >standard credit card or a cut down version? Both wheels are driven and it appears to take credit card sized cards but I haven't tried one yet. There is a magnetic head behind each wheel and a microswitch above each one so that it can tell when a card reachs the heads. I'm goping to have to go find some of those "free" credit cards that they send me and go play with them. > It does look like fun although missing the printer :( Yeah :-( But it's not missing, it was built that way. Still the SBC says "printer down" when you power it up so it knows the printer is missing. I played with it some this PM and it seems to work. Now I just need to dig up a PDF copy of the -65 manual and refresh my memory on the commands and see if it still does any of the standard commands. Joe >Dwight > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 24 18:49:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:49:41 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <4293B7FC.nail7I41KQEKR@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050524194941.009dd2a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:25 PM 5/24/05 -0400, Tim wrote: >> And you don't think he's figured this out? Why do you think he's >> trying to find a sucker to take it at $199K? > >At the same time, his E-bay feedback shows that he's still buying >large quantities of old games. Maybe buying more than he's selling. > >I suspect his "$199K" auction is to attract publicity for his other >auctions, mostly. How much do you think that publicity stunt is costing him in listing fees? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 18:49:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <200505241621.j4OGLHOu023617@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > 16. VCF-ism, "Sellam is the center of his own universe." :) I'm not sure about that, but I am definitely a legend in my own mind ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 19:02:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: <4293886A.8000142@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > There are two articles in the mentioning > > November 1970 "Behold the Computer Revolution" > > October 1982 The Chip > > Nov 70 issue has a picture of ILLIAC IV being assembled. > Oct 82 issue has a picture of ILLIAC IV being scrapped. > > Coincidence, or intention on the part of the writers of the second article? Interesting observation, and a good question. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue May 24 19:08:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:08:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050524194941.009dd2a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050524194941.009dd2a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4293C1F1.nail7WG14L55Y@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> I suspect his $199K auction is to attract publicity for his other >> auctions, mostly. Joe wrote: > How much do you think that publicity stunt is costing him in > listing fees? Exactly $4.80. Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 24 19:19:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <20050524233711.6235.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050524233711.6235.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36301.207.145.53.202.1116980346.squirrel@207.145.53.202> William wrote: > In all fairness, the prices he pays are only > marginally more than the runner-up bidder, The way eBay works, that's *always* true. It doesn't prove anything about what his proxy bid amounts were; they might have been just over the second highest bidder's max, or they might have been astronomical. > so he's not the only one driving up the prices. If there is a big gap between the second- and third-highest bids, then the winning bidder has driven up the price by approximately hat difference, since if he didn't bid, it would have sold for one minimum bid increment over the third-highest. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 18:34:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:34:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <3eaba6ef05051907474ecb51e1@mail.gmail.com> from "Thomas Seidel" at May 19, 5 04:47:07 pm Message-ID: > P.S. I'm new on this list. It's common to introduce oneself? > It used to be commmon to do that -- to mention the sort of machines you were interested in, etc -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 18:38:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:38:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Disk archival techniques In-Reply-To: <01C55CD9.C88141E0@H80.C223.tor.velocet.net> from "M H Stein" at May 20, 5 01:18:01 am Message-ID: > As a matter of fact, I just dumped several Cromemco PROMs a while ago > for archival use; > what's the recommendation for 4 bit PROMs? 8 bits with hex F's in the > upper nibble, or? I normally use 8 bits per location, data in the low bits, top 4 bits don't-cares (eitehr 0 or F is common), but all the same for a given dump. Anybody seeing that in the future who knows that it's a dump of a 4-bit wide device will soon realise that as the top 4 bits of each byte are constant, it's likely that the useful data is the bottom 4 bits only. > > And are we going to be able to find blank bipolar PROMS or PALs in 10 > or 20 years? Prbably not, but there _will_ be fast-enough memory devices that can be programmed and kludged into the board in place of the failed part. The fact that you might only be using the bottom 32 bytes of an 8Mbyte part won;t be a worry I guess. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 18:50:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:50:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: <001001c55ffe$d2f9b800$463dd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 23, 5 08:20:45 pm Message-ID: > So many people don't like that I post self extracting archives but at least > it is currently usable by the largest population and there is a better Personally, I'd rather have something that was useable by 100% of interested people, albeit with a little effort (like having to download and compile tar) than something that was useable by 95% of said people with no effort but totally unusable by the remaining 5% (e.g. a compression system that depends on a particular OS). [I do realise that your self-extracting archives can be attacked with unzip on most OSes] > chance when everything including the tools to extract it are all in one > file. That assumes that machines capable of running MS-DOS/Windoes programs will remain in operation. Given the difficulty of repairing modern PCs, I don't think that's necessarily going to be the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 18:58:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:58:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/45 light chaser In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1CD4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> from "Gooijen H" at May 24, 5 04:04:08 pm Message-ID: > > The drawback of the light chaser program that uses the RESET instruction > is that the heads load and unload of the RX02 drive in my PDP-11/40. Correct. The Bus INIT-L signal causes that. But I wrote that program for my 11/45 long before I had any peripherals connected -- in fact long before I had any peripherals at all, even a DL11. So it wasn't a problem for me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 19:07:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:07:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505242131.OAA27005@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at May 24, 5 02:31:26 pm Message-ID: > For logic functions, diodes in general lack the ability > to invert. This is critical for any computing of reasonable > complexity. Although the HP9100 kept the number of inverters as low as possible. OK, it uses the Q and Q/ outputs of all the 40-odd flip-flops, and I think there may be the odd inverter on the sideboards, but the main gating board contains no transistors at all -- just 1000-ish diodes. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 24 19:52:10 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. I'm fairly sure you are. Neons do have interesting DC-vs-AC behaviour, but it's not diodish; rather, it's a matter of which electrode light is emitted near. (I can't remember whether it's the positive or the negative.) You have to do something like AC to get both electrodes lit up. What's more interesting about neons is that their current/voltage curve exhibits hysteresis - there is a range of voltages which will sustain but not initiate current flow. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 24 20:16:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone know this guy!? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050524194941.009dd2a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > How much do you think that publicity stunt is costing him in listing fees? Lots, relative to Ebay, but damn cheap in the marketing biz... I have thought about using the same trick. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 24 20:20:23 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Right. It ended up at Moffett Field in Mountain View, California, which > is how the Computer History Museum got it as part of its collection (and > it now sits on display in the Visible Storage area). Are you sure you have the whole thing (well, all that was built, anyway)? ILLIAC 4 was big. Really damn big. And they only ended up building a fraction of its goal. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 24 20:40:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Right. It ended up at Moffett Field in Mountain View, California, which > > is how the Computer History Museum got it as part of its collection (and > > it now sits on display in the Visible Storage area). > > Are you sure you have the whole thing (well, all that was built, > anyway)? ILLIAC 4 was big. Really damn big. And they only ended up > building a fraction of its goal. Not sure. Will have to ask someone who was around then or check off-site storage. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 20:55:19 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:55:19 -0700 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <200505242131.OAA27005@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4293DB02.59FCB7C7@cs.ubc.ca> > >From: "James Fogg" > > > >I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. As has been pointed out, and in the whole, neons and diodes are different. However (and this may be what you are thinking of), they do share a somewhat-similar heavily-non-linear switching characteristic (switch from high-resistance to low-resistance at some threshold voltage) which makes them both usable for constructing logic gates: the circuit of a neon AND or OR gate looks identical to a diode AND or OR gate, with a 1-1 correspondance between diodes and neons. (Other circuit parameters like operating voltages and resistances differ though.) The negative-resistance characteristic of neons that Dwight mentions makes it possible to use them as storage elements also, in different circuit configurations. HP used them for both purposes in some equipment in the 50s/60s. The HP524C counter uses a couple of neons for an AND/OR function in the 10MHz counter stage. The HP3430A digital voltmeter (and other equipment which used the same counting modules) used neons for storage (4-bit latch) (Tony described the latter some months ago). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 20:58:15 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:58:15 -0700 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4293DBB2.D51B4618@cs.ubc.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Neons do have interesting DC-vs-AC behaviour, but it's not diodish; > rather, it's a matter of which electrode light is emitted near. (I > can't remember whether it's the positive or the negative.) The negative. Think of Nixies: it's the cathodes that are shaped into numerals and glow. From news at computercollector.com Tue May 24 21:07:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:07:57 -0400 Subject: I'm in Dayton - where's everyone else? ;-) In-Reply-To: <64319.66.193.86.234.1116545700.squirrel@www.30below.com> Message-ID: <200505250204.j4P24XjO032068@dewey.classiccmp.org> So how was the show? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of zmerch at 30below.com Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: I'm in Dayton - where's everyone else? ;-) I'm in dayton(ish) at the Holiday Inn in Fairborn just off I-675. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue May 24 22:43:27 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:43:27 +0800 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? Message-ID: A quick one: What is the cable that connects the DECmate II to a VR201? TIA. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 24 22:39:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:39:38 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: <42934D96.10905@srv.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524223112.057c0c50@mail> At 06:46 PM 5/24/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Plus, and this has >been expressed several times already, when you're talking about preserving >information, ALWAYS EXPECT THE WORST. It is the safest approach. OK, I'll try to bring this back on topic. I know this question's been asked one way or another a number of times before. Are there any new developments in computer-driven printing technology that bring us closer to archival output? Conventional laser printing is not it; I think the plastic ink is too sensitive to remelting or flaking under heat or pressure. From this perspective, ink jet looks as long-lasting as any water-soluble dipped-pen ink that's survived for a few hundred years depending on conditions. Are archival ink-jet photo papers more resin-coated? Are dye-sublimation printers (see http://science.howstuffworks.com/question583.htm ) a good shot for printing technologies that might be good for some crazy scheme like Paperbytes that'll store digital data on paper? - John From aw288 at osfn.org Tue May 24 22:48:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524223112.057c0c50@mail> Message-ID: > Are there any new developments in computer-driven printing technology > that bring us closer to archival output? Conventional laser > printing is not it; I think the plastic ink is too sensitive > to remelting or flaking under heat or pressure. > > From this perspective, ink jet looks as long-lasting as any water-soluble > dipped-pen ink that's survived for a few hundred years depending on conditions. > Are archival ink-jet photo papers more resin-coated? Cartridges with archival quality ink have been available for Deskjets for a couple of years now. Expensive. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 24 22:53:44 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:53:44 EDT Subject: SGIs and 64-bittiness Message-ID: <1ee.3c5b2402.2fc550c8@aol.com> positive about IP28 (R10k), uname says IRIX64, all docs indicate R8k is 64 as well. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue May 24 22:59:02 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:59:02 EDT Subject: The Order of St. Leibowitz (terribly OT) was: RE: ZIP Message-ID: <90.5e794d88.2fc55206@aol.com> So what archive format should we use for the blessed saint's shopping lists? Scott Quinn From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 24 23:02:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:02:28 -0500 Subject: zip References: Message-ID: <000e01c560de$986354e0$0992d6d1@randy> From: "William Donzelli" Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:48 PM >> Are there any new developments in computer-driven printing technology >> that bring us closer to archival output? Conventional laser >> printing is not it; I think the plastic ink is too sensitive >> to remelting or flaking under heat or pressure. >> >> From this perspective, ink jet looks as long-lasting as any >> water-soluble >> dipped-pen ink that's survived for a few hundred years depending on >> conditions. >> Are archival ink-jet photo papers more resin-coated? > > Cartridges with archival quality ink have been available for Deskjets for > a couple of years now. Expensive. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org Just make sure you use an acid free paper. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 24 23:15:31 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:15:31 -0500 Subject: The Order of St. Leibowitz (terribly OT) was: RE: ZIP In-Reply-To: <90.5e794d88.2fc55206@aol.com> References: <90.5e794d88.2fc55206@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524231452.05071aa0@mail> At 10:59 PM 5/24/2005, you wrote: >So what archive format should we use for the blessed saint's shopping lists? Unwashed! Step away from The Lunchbox! - John From jnugen at one.woovis.com Tue May 24 23:16:17 2005 From: jnugen at one.woovis.com (James Nugen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:16:17 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> References: <002401c5609e$94bc6100$1600100a@xw500006> Message-ID: <4293FC11.9090501@one.woovis.com> Frank Palazzolo wrote: >The site that had some scanned pages from a book, about using neon bulbs as >logic elements. I planned to read it later, and then lost it. Anyone seen >that site? > > > That's kind of funny! I've been looking at the same topic recently. Here is a site I just found a few days ago which has 3 scanned books on the topic: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electricstuff/oldbooks.html I'm also in the process of scanning several books I found at the local university. Burning in my new "plustek OpticBook 3600" book scanner. I'll let you know when I'm done. I purchased some neon bulbs on ebay this weekend. Though from what I have been reading, 'trigger tubes' are probably better. They are 3 terminal devices that are more like a relay or transistor. Actually, they are some times referred to as 'relay tubes'. -James Nugen From mcesari at comcast.net Tue May 24 23:46:05 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:46:05 -0600 Subject: [Semi-OT] MacOS X Terminal.app keymappings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2005, at 9:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've got a semi-ontopic problem since I'm using it to connect to > OpenVMS and PDP-11's. > > Does anyone know of a way to get the keycodes and add mappings for > additional keys than are listed in the com.apple.Terminal.plist > file? Apple's handling of the keypad is pathetic, so much for > "strict" emulation, but as it's still about the best out there > (besides my hacked Xmodmap for using a xterm) I'd really like to > get the problems fixed. > > Zane > Try GLterm. You can get it at: http://www.pollet.net/GLterm/ 10 bucks shareware. It does VT102 emulation and has proper keypad functionality -- toggle between app and numeric keypad modes by cmd-numlock as numlock is *really* the PF1 key :) The only downside is that you have to use F1 - F4 for PF1 - PF4 in numeric keypad mode. Double wide and double high characters are rendered properly. Characters are fuzzy under some conditions such as 132 column mode in a too narrow window and the double sized characters are somewhat fuzzy. This is due to the way he uses OpenGL to draw the characters. (See the Q&A) The graphics and line drawing characters (char. set 0) are there, too. It does a good job dealing with vttest (better than either xterm or Terminal.app), but no VT52 emulation. EDT and SED keypad works in TOPS-20. Not associated with the author, just pleased with the result. Mike From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 25 00:03:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524223112.057c0c50@mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > From this perspective, ink jet looks as long-lasting as any > water-soluble dipped-pen ink that's survived for a few hundred years > depending on conditions. Are archival ink-jet photo papers more > resin-coated? I am pretty sure you can now get archival ink carthridges for inkjet printers. Be prepared to pay even more than you normally do for these. Yep, here's some: http://www.box-shift.co.uk/cgi-bin/digitalink.asp?r=1 > Are dye-sublimation printers (see > http://science.howstuffworks.com/question583.htm ) a good shot for > printing technologies that might be good for some crazy scheme like > Paperbytes that'll store digital data on paper? I doubt the concept, but I am curious how dye sublimation holds out vs. laser toner, which does outgas and tends to stick adjacent pages together over time. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 25 00:21:12 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:21:12 -0700 Subject: [Semi-OT] MacOS X Terminal.app keymappings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:46 PM -0600 5/24/05, Mike Cesari wrote: >Try GLterm. You can get it at: > >http://www.pollet.net/GLterm/ > >10 bucks shareware. It does VT102 emulation and has proper keypad >functionality -- toggle between app and numeric keypad modes by >cmd-numlock as numlock is *really* the PF1 key :) >The only downside is that you have to use F1 - F4 for PF1 - PF4 >in numeric keypad mode. > >Double wide and double high characters are rendered properly. >Characters are fuzzy under some conditions such as 132 column mode in >a too narrow window and the double sized characters are somewhat fuzzy. >This is due to the way he uses OpenGL to draw the characters. (See the Q&A) >The graphics and line drawing characters (char. set 0) are there, too. > >It does a good job dealing with vttest (better than either xterm or >Terminal.app), but no VT52 emulation. > >EDT and SED keypad works in TOPS-20. > >Not associated with the author, just pleased with the result. > >Mike Wow! That is without a doubt probably the fastest terminal emulator I've ever used! My standard test of logging into OpenVMS, firing up "mailbox" (uses double sized fonts), and then editing a text file so I can test the keypad doesn't show any problems. BTW, one interesting thing to note about the Mac OS X 10.4 upgrade is that the xterm handles doublesized fonts (I don't think I've ever seen an xterm on any OS do that). With my modified .Xmodmap file, I have the xterm behaving almost as good, except it seems to loose its keymapping for the delete key occasionally. I think I might just switch to this for my terminal emulation! Besides, I like that it uses a VT100 for an icon :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 25 01:21:16 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 02:21:16 EDT Subject: Sig-Micro CP/M software 8 inch disks available Message-ID: <2b.73cde2f5.2fc5735c@aol.com> I came across a 8 inch disk file box that's labeled SIG-MICRO CP/M SOFTWARE VOLUMES 1-246. There's around 200 disks in there with handwritten labels listing the disk numbers. I have no way of reading these disks. Anyone familiar with these? Are they worth archiving? From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 25 01:37:26 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:37:26 -0500 Subject: Sig-Micro CP/M software 8 inch disks available References: <2b.73cde2f5.2fc5735c@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c560f4$3ada9f20$c43dd7d1@randy> From: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 1:21 AM > I came across a 8 inch disk file box that's labeled SIG-MICRO CP/M > SOFTWARE > VOLUMES 1-246. There's around 200 disks in there with handwritten labels > listing the disk numbers. I have no way of reading these disks. Anyone > familiar > with these? Are they worth archiving? The SIGM disks are archived but some are corrupted and a couple were withdrawn. I'll followup with details just in case you have what is missing/corrupted. The SIGM disks are part of the Walnut Creek CP/M archive. If you can't use them consider passing them on to someone that can. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed May 25 03:01:37 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:01:37 +0100 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 May 2005 22:30:34 BST." <10505242230.ZM24421@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200505250801.JAA06167@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Pete Turnbul said: > On May 24 2005, 17:11, James Fogg wrote: > > > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. > > No, neons happily pass AC. You must be thinking of something else. They have hysteresis. The striking voltage is higher than the maintaining voltage which allows you to use them as switches and oscillators. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From lcourtney at mvista.com Wed May 25 08:28:27 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:28:27 -0700 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The only portion of Illiac-IV is the PE, CE, and swapping drive that are on display at the Museum. See http://www.computerhistory.org/VisibleStorage/images/102636984_lg.jpg for a picture of the system at NASA-Ames. Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" > > > On Tue, 24 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Right. It ended up at Moffett Field in Mountain View, > California, which > > > is how the Computer History Museum got it as part of its > collection (and > > > it now sits on display in the Visible Storage area). > > > > Are you sure you have the whole thing (well, all that was built, > > anyway)? ILLIAC 4 was big. Really damn big. And they only ended up > > building a fraction of its goal. > > Not sure. Will have to ask someone who was around then or check off-site > storage. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 08:49:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:49:12 +0000 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... Message-ID: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> Just picked one of these up, lurking in a SPARCStation 1 case. I gether it's a SPARC 5 clone board. It seems to have 30 pin SIMM memory, but also a couple of 72 pin sockets (both of these and all 16 30 pin sockets are filled). Anyone able to tell me if there's anything special about the 72 pin sockets? I'm assuming both types of socket are used as main memory and this was just done for flexibility, but it'd be nice to know (just in case the 72 pin ones are for disk cache or something equally strange) It seems Tadpole bought Cycle a number of years back, so I'll give them a poke just on the offchance they have a manual kicking around (their European base is only just down the road from me) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 08:56:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:56:38 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault Message-ID: <1117029398.6376.50.camel@weka.localdomain> Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly broke :-) On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high; after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible. Just thought I'd quickly ask in case there's component foo that's a common failure in these machines (I haven't even pulled the case to look for an obvious failure yet, let alone do anything else) ta Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 09:04:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:04:59 +0000 Subject: ProPort 656 audio / DSP box and Sun interface board... Message-ID: <1117029899.6376.60.camel@weka.localdomain> Another find (along with a SPARCBook, ooh!). Interesting thing about this external box is that the manual says it was designed primarily for NeXT compatibility. It's a dual input / dual output audio processor with a DSP interface for connecting to a wide variety of machines. This one came with an S-32C SBUS interface card for a Sun, but the unfortunate thing is that the hard disk that the owner had with all the interface code on is a little unwell, so it remains to be seen if I can drag anything off it. In the meantime though, anyone else have one of these critters, preferably hooked up to a Sun with some example code they can send me? I've got the manual for the ProPort box itself, which goes into some detail about programming, but it seems that the user was left pretty much on their own to write whatever custom app they needed to actually make use of it. I gather that Ariel who made it (and the I/F card) used to run a BBS with example code on, but of course that's long gone... cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 25 09:18:42 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:18:42 -0400 Subject: Archival Printing (was: zip In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050524223112.057c0c50@mail> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050525095910.03ce7d10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 24 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > > Are dye-sublimation printers (see > > http://science.howstuffworks.com/question583.htm ) a good shot for > > printing technologies that might be good for some crazy scheme like > > Paperbytes that'll store digital data on paper? No, but not due to their media itself; it's due to the fact that the dyes are designed to spread a bit when they hit the media; and barcodes & whatnot wouldn't look very crisp. Mine also has a resolution of 314 dpi (and that's considered quite good), so it's not what you'd call "hi-rez" by today's standards... They call it "continuous-tone" printing. >I doubt the concept, but I am curious how dye sublimation holds out vs. >laser toner, which does outgas and tends to stick adjacent pages together >over time. It holds out exceptionally well. My printer spits out museum-archival quality prints; rated for a _minimum_ of 60 years on the wall, cared for well they could easy hit 100+, and waterproof to boot. The printer was durned near $1k, and the media & ribbon zings me $2 per 8x10 print. But it makes nice pictures! ;-) For medium to low-res barcodes, I'd think it would be better to use an older 24-pin dot-matrix with good ribbons.... but that's just a guess. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From randrewreynolds at yahoo.ca Wed May 25 09:17:50 2005 From: randrewreynolds at yahoo.ca (Andrew Reynolds) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:17:50 -0300 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050525141750.GA2525@Andrew-Reynolds-Computer.local> On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:49:12PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Just picked one of these up, lurking in a SPARCStation 1 case. I gether > it's a SPARC 5 clone board. > > It seems to have 30 pin SIMM memory, but also a couple of 72 pin sockets > (both of these and all 16 30 pin sockets are filled). > > Anyone able to tell me if there's anything special about the 72 pin > sockets? I'm assuming both types of socket are used as main memory and > this was just done for flexibility, but it'd be nice to know (just in > case the 72 pin ones are for disk cache or something equally strange) > I have one of these boards in the same case, they must have been a popular upgrade. It's my understanding that you have to install a matched pair of 72 pin parity simms. According the web site (which is now gone), the max RAM was 128MB (16 x 4MB 30 pin simms, 2 x 32MB 72 pin simms). This is how mine is configured. They also use the Sun Y serial cable that splits one DB-25 into A/B serial ports, as well as an external dongle for audio. The other DB-25 is a parallel port. It's actually quite a nice board. -Andrew From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Wed May 25 09:57:56 2005 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:57:56 -0400 Subject: MFM, RLL etc to USB Message-ID: <0IH1008QNWB46450@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Anybody know if there exist adapters for old disk drives (e.g.- MFM, RLL etc.) to USB? Preferably USB 2.0. I may need to read the contents of a bunch of old hard drives. I can probably cobble together some old ISA systems with the right controllers if I really must, but maybe someone's created a simple solution. Chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 09:59:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:59:13 +0000 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <20050525141750.GA2525@Andrew-Reynolds-Computer.local> References: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050525141750.GA2525@Andrew-Reynolds-Computer.local> Message-ID: <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 11:17 -0300, Andrew Reynolds wrote: > On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:49:12PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > They also use the Sun Y serial cable that splits one DB-25 into > A/B serial ports, as well as an external dongle for audio. The other DB-25 is > a parallel port. Heh, so I just discovered. The parallel port lines up with what's labelled as Serial port A on the back of the case :-( Luckily I don't think I've destroyed any serial hardware on the PC I was using as a terminal! I think it's stuck trying to do a network boot at present according to the messages I'm getting out of it now I've swapped the serial cable over to the other DB25. Can't remember how to simulate a stop-A from a terminal now, as this would likely drop me into the monitor... cheers! Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 10:12:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:12:15 +0000 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050525141750.GA2525@Andrew-Reynolds-Computer.local> <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1117033935.6392.106.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 14:59 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Can't remember how to simulate a stop-A from a terminal now, as this > would likely drop me into the monitor... never mind, I just remembered minicom's "send break" menu option, which worked :-) cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed May 25 10:25:54 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:25:54 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0EBDEEEF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200505251526.j4PFQ54j037398@dewey.classiccmp.org> Haha, it does that when the cable gets disconnected from the CGA card, try hooking it back up :D > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 8:57 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault > > > Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up > until the point the chap switched it on to show me it > working, when it promptly broke :-) > > On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about > 1.5" high; after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes > to flickering amber with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible. > > Just thought I'd quickly ask in case there's component foo > that's a common failure in these machines (I haven't even > pulled the case to look for an obvious failure yet, let alone > do anything else) > > ta > > Jules > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 25 10:57:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:57:11 -0400 Subject: Classic DEC picture from "American Used Computer" References: Message-ID: <17044.41047.693813.463789@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Right. It ended up at Moffett Field in Mountain View, California, >> which is how the Computer History Museum got it as part of its >> collection (and it now sits on display in the Visible Storage >> area). William> Are you sure you have the whole thing (well, all that was William> built, anyway)? ILLIAC 4 was big. Really damn big. And they William> only ended up building a fraction of its goal. A quarter, actually -- it was supposed to be a 256 processor system but only the 64 CPU major block was built. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed May 25 10:59:42 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:59:42 -0400 Subject: Is it just me ... In-Reply-To: <200505251550.j4PFoZ8r039318@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505251559.j4PFxdXW006002@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> > In all fairness, the prices he pays are only > marginally more than the runner-up bidder You don't understand how E-Bay works. If you bid $5 and I bid $100, I win the item .... for $6. And the fact that I had bid $100 is never even seen, by anyone. If you are going to play the E-Bay game, it is very important to understand the intricate details of the bidding system completely. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 25 11:06:10 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:06:10 -0400 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? References: Message-ID: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: Wai-Sun> A quick one: What is the cable that connects the DECmate II Wai-Sun> to a VR201? The same as for the Pro, I believe (15 pin D-sub connector at each end) which would make it a BCC02. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed May 25 11:10:12 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:10:12 -0400 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200505251550.j4PFoZ8r039318@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Adobe Acrobat has almost unlimited manipulation capabilities. You can rearrange pages, add pages (from almost any format .... word documents, JPEGs, other PDFs, scanners, TIFF .... just about anything), rotate pages, delete pages, and export pages as graphic images (in just about any format). You can export pages, do "whatever" to them, and reimport them. Also, it may be possible to "re-image" the entire PDF file to shrink it's size, although I've not done that. If you drop any requirement for compatibility with versions of Acrobat versions 4 and earlier (the current version is 7), the files can be shrunk dramatically, although I'm not sure if there is an easy one-step way to do this in the "standard" version (there is a separate stand-alone PDF file optimizer in the "pro" version). In my own view, Acrobat versions 4 and earlier are now too old to be productively used. Of course, I'm talking about "full version" Adobe Acrobat, not simply the [free] "Acrobat Reader". From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed May 25 11:12:57 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:12:57 +0200 Subject: MFM, RLL etc to USB In-Reply-To: <0IH1008QNWB46450@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4294C029.449.2AB300DA@localhost> Am 25 May 2005 10:57 meinte Chris Muller: > Anybody know if there exist adapters for old disk drives (e.g.- MFM, RLL > etc.) to USB? > Preferably USB 2.0. I may need to read the contents of a bunch of old hard > drives. I can probably cobble together some old ISA systems with the right > controllers if I really must, but maybe someone's created a simple solution. USB to ISA interfaces have been among the first USB stuff implemented. A google search should help here. As usual not the interface but the drivers are the real hassle. If you can't find any ready made hardware, it's an easy job to use an existing USB-ISA bridge chip as the SMSC USB97C100. This one is especialy handy, since it contains not only a 8051 to run your own interface specific code, but also a PC compatible 8237 DMA controler (Hey, if you want to go back in time, we should realy use the old stuff), and an almost complete ISA bus. It's a no brainer to add ISA to any USB host capable device. At the lowest level, just create a simple block protocoll to transmit register read/write to the 8051, or send and return data from there. I found it quite easy, but there may be other, better suiting chips. Hans -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From palazzol at comcast.net Wed May 25 11:20:41 2005 From: palazzol at comcast.net (Frank Palazzolo) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:20:41 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505251550.j4PFoZ8p039318@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001a01c56145$b2cec460$1600100a@xw500006> Pat said... >You mean the stuff in this zip file? >http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/neon_lamp_logic/lamp.zip > >Judging by the date on the file, it was 2 years ago, not last month, that >we were talking about it... Thanks - that was it. Now I remember, I was looking at the VCF Midwest info when I stumbled on it by accident. Thanks also for the other comments/links! More to read... -Frank From news at computercollector.com Wed May 25 11:57:37 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:57:37 -0400 Subject: Rescue opp: IBM System 36 / 5362 in Iowa Message-ID: <200505251653.j4PGrn6S040370@dewey.classiccmp.org> Says it weights about 150 pounds and it shippable. - Evan > -----Original Message----- > From: KJones at acsltd.com [mailto:KJones at acsltd.com] > > Tan, 2 drawer file cabinet size, now serving as door stop, > Will ask client to donate if you want it > > Works as far as I know, I will fire it up > > Thank you, Keith Jones > Senior iSeries Consultant > > Associated Computer Systems, Ltd. > 11201 Aurora Avenue > Des Moines, IA 50322 USA > > Tel: 515-223-0078 Fax: 515-223-7219 > An IBM Premier Business Partner > > Visit ACS at http://www.acsltd.com for all your iSeries > (AS/400), PC Network and Telephony needs. > ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 11:54:08 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:54:08 -0700 Subject: MFM, RLL etc to USB Message-ID: Anybody know if there exist adapters for old disk drives (e.g.- MFM, RLL etc.) to USB? Preferably USB 2.0. I may need to read the contents of a bunch of old hard drives. I can probably cobble together some old ISA systems with the right controllers if I really must, but maybe someone's created a simple solution. Chris -- This same subject came up a month or so ago. You have to use the same controller as the drive was formatted with, since there is no way to tell what the actual on-disk sector format was for a random MFM or RLL disk. Adaptec, for example, used their own ECC scheme on the sector. There is (currently) nothing available like the Catweazel for capturing bit level data for hard drives. From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 25 12:34:26 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:34:26 +0200 Subject: MFM, RLL etc to USB References: Message-ID: <005301c5614f$ff858be0$1502a8c0@ACER> I only have notice of one 5.25 floppy disk box for USB... discontinued. I should like to go more far than the MFM-USB adaptor. The helpful think would be to design one ISA expansion box pluggable using USB 2.0 Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:54 PM Subject: Re: MFM, RLL etc to USB > Anybody know if there exist adapters for old disk drives (e.g.- MFM, RLL > etc.) to USB? > Preferably USB 2.0. I may need to read the contents of a bunch of old > hard > drives. I can probably cobble together some old ISA systems with the > right > controllers if I really must, but maybe someone's created a simple > solution. > > Chris > > -- > > This same subject came up a month or so ago. > > You have to use the same controller as the drive was formatted with, > since there is no > way to tell what the actual on-disk sector format was for a random MFM > or RLL disk. > > Adaptec, for example, used their own ECC scheme on the sector. > > There is (currently) nothing available like the Catweazel for capturing > bit level data > for hard drives. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 25 12:36:11 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:36:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: Stan Barr "Re: Neon bulb logic elements link?" (May 25, 9:01) References: <200505250801.JAA06167@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <10505251836.ZM26347@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25 2005, 9:01, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Pete Turnbul said: > > > On May 24 2005, 17:11, James Fogg wrote: > > > > > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. > > > > No, neons happily pass AC. You must be thinking of something else. > > They have hysteresis. The striking voltage is higher than the > maintaining voltage which allows you to use them as switches and > oscillators. I know. The first oscillator I ever built was a relaxation oscillator using a neon lamp. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed May 25 13:22:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1117028952.6392.44.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050525141750.GA2525@Andrew-Reynolds-Computer.local> <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200505251826.OAA24847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Heh, so I just discovered. The parallel port lines up with what's > labelled as Serial port A on the back of the case :-( > Luckily I don't think I've destroyed any serial hardware on the PC I > was using as a terminal! That is not entirely coincidence. Serial ports are supposed to have enough impedence that you can apply any voltage in some wide range like ?25V (relative to ground) to any pin or combination of pins without damage. Certainly well beyond anything a parallel port is going to produce. Of course, lots of peecee makers ignore the spec in other ways, so they might ignore it in this repsect too...but at least it's _supposed_ to be able to survive such treatment. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 25 13:29:56 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:29:56 +0100 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c56157$c1807f00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I don't know what it's like in your worldview, but mine is > filled with total morons, and I have little hope for the > future. And that's just this list :-) > So tell me then how to read the information from a Quipu. > It's a simple device: just a bunch of multi-colored knotted > string. If you can figure this out, there's a huge community > of archaeologists who study the Incas who would erect a > permanent shrine for you to celebrate your name for all > eternity. The shrine may last a long time but within a few hundred years they'll just forget how to read for whom it was erected! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 25 13:37:28 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:37:28 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX Help? In-Reply-To: <000001c55d4d$91bb18b0$43884044@nunuab4l7txmfk> Message-ID: <002a01c56158$cf31c950$5b01a8c0@flexpc> dwhit wrote: > I am purchasing a MicroVAX Model 655QS-B2. Sounds like a MicroVAX 3800 (smaller box) or MicroVAX 3900 (larger box). > Can anyone point me to a good source of documentation? http://vt100.net/manx is a wonderful search engine. Look for MicroVAX and KA655 (that's your CPU module). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 25 13:47:51 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:47:51 -0500 Subject: BBS documentary Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050525134524.05393af8@mail> It was mentioned on Slashdot yesterday because it's now available: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/25/0023230&tid=97&tid=162&tid=1 although I don't know if that's new news, and it was mentioned in Evan's newsletter, but perhaps list members would enjoy seeing other well-known list members in the photo album: http://bbsdocumentary.dreamhost.com/photos/interviews.html Boy, those guys are getting old! :-) - John From jdbryan at acm.org Wed May 25 13:53:00 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:53:00 -0400 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <428E2A7B.6000707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200505251853.j4PIr1Qu025298@mail.bcpl.net> On 20 May 2005 at 11:20, Al Kossow wrote: > Since it turned out that scanning wide-edge first results in straighter > scans.... In preparation for scanning and PDFing the 200-odd HP manuals in my possession, I've been experimenting with batch image-processing programs. For deskewing scans, the Leptonica library at: http://www.leptonica.com/ ...provides a simple solution that works quite well. Deskewing is literally little more than calling the "pixRead", "pixDeskew", and "pixWrite" library functions. For pages containing text and screened photos, I scan once at 600 dpi bilevel (for the text) and a second time at 200 dpi grayscale for the photo using the descreening feature of the (horrible) HP imaging software that came with the scanner. Manually, I erase the screened area from the first image and crop the second, saving the latter as a JPEG. I've modified "tumble" to composite images, so the resulting PDF page has the TIFF G4 text background with the JPEG photo superimposed. I wrote a simple masking program to clean up the edges of the scanned images. I wrote another program that takes a directory of image files, parses the filenames for section, chapter, and page number information encoded in the names, and creates a "tumble" control file to create the PDF with appropriate bookmarks, page labels, and blank pages -- the latter to allow for easy duplex printing (I've also modified "tumble" to create blank PDF pages instead of embedding a blank TIFF page image). Finally, I use Ghostscript to linearize the tumbled PDF. The only significant manual work is rescanning the photos in order to descreen them. I'd like to find a batch descreener that would take a bilevel screened image file and produce a grayscale image. The Leptonica library has such a function, but my first attempts yielded visible Moire patterns. I need to investigate further. -- Dave From cswiger at widomaker.com Wed May 25 13:58:28 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <001a01c56145$b2cec460$1600100a@xw500006> References: <001a01c56145$b2cec460$1600100a@xw500006> Message-ID: <20050525145257.K43582@wilma.widomaker.com> > Pat said... > > >You mean the stuff in this zip file? > >http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/neon_lamp_logic/lamp.zip > > FWIW - I found a real paper copy of a book with similar circuits on the shelf in my backwoods tech school library (the one with all the 70's SCELBI books, paperclip computer book & other treasures). Anyway it was a glow lamp manual with neon logic. I'll try to compare with the zip file and see if it's the same or if there's additiional material. --Chuck From news at computercollector.com Wed May 25 14:02:46 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:46 -0400 Subject: BBS documentary In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050525134524.05393af8@mail> Message-ID: <200505251859.j4PIxYGR041731@dewey.classiccmp.org> Jason's sending me the DVD set. I'll probably publish a review in the June 6 issue. A bunch of people already saw it at VCF 7. I couldn't be there last year. Anyone who saw it care to offer some thoughts? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: BBS documentary It was mentioned on Slashdot yesterday because it's now available: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/25/0023230&tid=97&tid=162&tid=1 although I don't know if that's new news, and it was mentioned in Evan's newsletter, but perhaps list members would enjoy seeing other well-known list members in the photo album: http://bbsdocumentary.dreamhost.com/photos/interviews.html Boy, those guys are getting old! :-) - John From James at jdfogg.com Wed May 25 14:10:49 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:10:49 -0400 Subject: BBS documentary Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A7A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > although I don't know if that's new news, and it was > mentioned in Evan's newsletter, but perhaps list members > would enjoy seeing other well-known list members in the photo album: > > http://bbsdocumentary.dreamhost.com/photos/interviews.html > > Boy, those guys are getting old! :-) I met Jason when he worked for Digital Island (or Digex or one of those players). The facility was going to close and he was trying to find a home for a Sun SC2000E. We got to talking and found our common BBS roots. I agreed to interview, but it never happened because of events on my end. Considering the level of material he eventually collected I'm sure I'd have ended up in the digital dustbin. The SC2000E never happened either :-( ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From kth at srv.net Wed May 25 14:34:04 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:34:04 -0600 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >So tell me then how to read the information from a Quipu. It's a simple >device: just a bunch of multi-colored knotted string. If you can figure >this out, there's a huge community of archaeologists who study the Incas >who would erect a permanent shrine for you to celebrate your name for all >eternity. > > This is my point. The quipu was apparently their equivalent of our spreadsheet. They were easy for them to use, and easily understood. They aren't even "compressed", "tarred", or "zipped", but still lost. Once many could "write"/read them, and they were meant for long term archival use (at least many seem to have been archived). As easy as it was for them, and as important as they thought these documents were, we are unable to read them. They thought it was good for long term storage, but we haven't a clue as to how to read them. What is so different about computer archives, no matter how simple it seems to us, that ours wouldn't suffer the same fate. > The ancient Egyptians were by all measures a fairly advanced society for > their place in history, yet the only reason we know how to read their > heiroglyphic writings is because we found teh Rosetta Stone that basically > translated it for us. Again, you cannot assume English will be known in > the future. Same point. The Egyptians thought it was good enough, and easy enough, for use as a long term archive (see all the obelisks they made). We still lost the understanding of how to understand them. How much simpler can you get than "cartoons" carved in stone? Yet we still lost the ability to read them for a thousand+ years. Will there be a Rosetta stone to help future people to understand a long lost CP/M archive? I don't care how "simple" you think a storage format is, it won't help it in the long run. The archive should be for our own use, not some theoretical idiot 2000 years from now trying to boot a Kaypro. He's probably going to have a whole different set of problems with an archive than we could conceive; like locating the "any" key. From allain at panix.com Wed May 25 14:49:23 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:49:23 -0400 Subject: zip References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Message-ID: <077001c56162$da6ea220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> So far, no-one has mentioned this archival method: Bundled Simulator + OS + Application + File The idea is that the file could be viewed with the actual creating software, in a "ship in a bottle" VR-computer sence. What would be useful here is a Universal platform on which to build simulators, and this platform would be supplied on any new architecture through to any future. Otherwise, people might be stuck with 90 levels of simulator running simulator, etc. And you thought You had nightmares. John A. From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 25 14:53:47 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:53:47 -0500 Subject: zip References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Message-ID: <000a01c56163$7a8ffb00$673cd7d1@randy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Handy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: Re: zip > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>So tell me then how to read the information from a Quipu. It's a simple >>device: just a bunch of multi-colored knotted string. If you can figure >>this out, there's a huge community of archaeologists who study the Incas >>who would erect a permanent shrine for you to celebrate your name for all >>eternity. >> > This is my point. The quipu was apparently their equivalent of our > spreadsheet. They were easy for them to use, and easily understood. > They aren't even "compressed", "tarred", or "zipped", but still lost. > Once many could "write"/read them, and they were meant for long > term archival use (at least many seem to have been archived). As > easy as it was for them, and as important as they thought these > documents were, we are unable to read them. > > They thought it was good for long term storage, but we haven't a clue > as to how to read them. What is so different about computer archives, > no matter how simple it seems to us, that ours wouldn't suffer the > same fate. > >> The ancient Egyptians were by all measures a fairly advanced society for >> their place in history, yet the only reason we know how to read their >> heiroglyphic writings is because we found teh Rosetta Stone that >> basically >> translated it for us. Again, you cannot assume English will be known in >> the future. > > Same point. The Egyptians thought it was good enough, and easy > enough, for use as a long term archive (see all the obelisks they made). > We still lost the understanding of how to understand them. How much > simpler can you get than "cartoons" carved in stone? > Yet we still lost the ability to read them for a thousand+ years. > Will there be a Rosetta stone to help future people to understand a long > lost CP/M archive? I don't care how "simple" you think a storage format > is, it won't help it in the long run. > > The archive should be for our own use, not some theoretical > idiot 2000 years from now trying to boot a Kaypro. He's > probably going to have a whole different set of problems with an archive > than we could conceive; like locating > the "any" key. Now it's time to come back to the true definition of a library: A library is a living archive. It is meant to archive the data and keep up to date with what it takes to make sense of it. We tend to thing of the most common form of the library, the library we are used to entering: The lending library. While lending libraries are the most common the act of lending books is not the original concept nor the only use of libraries. Libraries are a repository of knowledge. The trick to archiving classic computer knowledge to gather it into an archive and keep librarians that constantly try to keep the most current Rosetta stone with it. As newer archival tools become available it is up to the librarian/archivist to transfer the data preserving its knowledge. It truly doesn't matter how it is archived but common sense is a good way to go: Use multiple methods, I keep my archives on the internet, multiple computers, and CD's. On the computers I keep the packaged and include the tools to unarchive them. Use current tools so people in the future don't have to be able to read Sanskrit to unarchive them. When newer better tools come out unarchive the packages and repackage under the new tools. Currently all over the world scientists are constantly repairing books that keep deteriorating, we need to do the same with our archives. When emulators that work with the archival data are available add them to your archive so people in the future have a chance to understand how the hardware is supposed to work. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 25 15:05:58 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:05:58 -0500 Subject: zip References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> <077001c56162$da6ea220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001301c56165$2e1e3550$673cd7d1@randy> From: "John Allain" Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:49 PM > So far, no-one has mentioned this archival method: > Bundled Simulator + OS + Application + File > The idea is that the file could be viewed with the actual > creating software, in a "ship in a bottle" VR-computer > sence. > What would be useful here is a Universal platform on > which to build simulators, and this platform would be > supplied on any new architecture through to any future. > Otherwise, people might be stuck with 90 levels of > simulator running simulator, etc. > And you thought You had nightmares. > > John A. By strangest coincidence I was writing a similar thing to the 1st part while this was being posted. I keep emulators for as many systems as possible. I need to post more (I have at least 4 posted). Right now I post (in order of date I started posting): Jim Battle's SOL-20's solace emulator. Mike Noel's AM100 emulator. Simon Cran's MYZ80 emulator. Dave Dunfield's Horizon emulator. I highly recommend these emulators and many more (like Rich Cini's Altair emulator). I completely disagree on the idea of a homogenous platform. I think having a million ideas on how to explain how someone's favorite hardware platform gives more insight into it. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 15:12:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:12:34 +0000 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Message-ID: <1117051954.6392.155.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 13:34 -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > I don't care how "simple" you think a storage format is, it won't help it > in the long run. Ahh, but doesn't that simplicity minimise the chances of someone being unable to understand the format in x years? Presumably, for every example of a language that we can no longer decipher, there are far more that we can? (whether through simplicity or a consistant design) > The archive should be for our own use, not some theoretical > idiot 2000 years from now trying to boot a Kaypro. He's > probably going to have a whole different set of problems > with an archive than we could conceive; like locating > the "any" key. I would expect that in a few thousand years, the interest is going to be in the data that is archived, not the content that is binary (executable) in nature. Funnily enough, it's almost going to be the other way around for the next 50-100 years; it's the binaries that people are interested in preserving, whilst the backups of Fred Foo's accounts get deleted! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 25 15:14:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:14:28 +0000 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <077001c56162$da6ea220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> <077001c56162$da6ea220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1117052068.6376.157.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 15:49 -0400, John Allain wrote: > What would be useful here is a Universal platform on > which to build simulators, and this platform would be > supplied on any new architecture through to any future. Isn't that just Java? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 15:34:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <1117052068.6376.157.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> <077001c56162$da6ea220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <1117052068.6376.157.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <52037.207.145.53.202.1117053292.squirrel@207.145.53.202> John Allain wrote: > What would be useful here is a Universal platform on > which to build simulators, and this platform would be > supplied on any new architecture through to any future. Jules Richardson wrote: > Isn't that just Java? Which one? I have Java programs that worked fine in 1996 that won't even compile now. Java is a moving target ("write once, debug everywhere"), so it's not particularly suited to any kind of long-term archival effort. From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 15:57:10 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050525134708.J707@localhost> On Tue, 24 May 2005, der Mouse wrote: > What's more interesting about neons is that their current/voltage curve > exhibits hysteresis - there is a range of voltages which will sustain > but not initiate current flow. As logic elements that's the only thing gas tubes have going for them. A neon bulb will remain infinite resistance (off) until the striking voltage. Once struck, it's a quasi-constant voltage drop depending on the gas and other details. For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and sustain around 80V. Look in a tube manual for miniatures with part numbers beginning with 0 (zero) for various gas mixtures used as voltage regulators (picture a zener in series with a resistor). 0A2, 0B2, etc. The glow is caused by quantum level changes in the electrons tricked into moving by the high voltage (gives off photons as they drop back down). The glow appears on the negative element where all the donor electrons are leaving the building. You could probably make a coincident-voltage memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. Gas tubes are also light sensitive, somewhat. A lot of neon-type lamps contain a tiny bit of radioactive Krypton gas as a source of electrons (what you call beta particles when they are moving slowly) for more predictable strikeover. Like all quantum devices, it's a statistical thing. All sorts of gaseous logical/counting elements were available commercially for about 15 minutes in the late 1940's/early 1950's. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed May 25 16:05:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:05:28 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> Message-ID: <17044.59544.351717.603265@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> You could probably make a coincident-voltage memory from them... Tom> but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. Not all that slow. The first plasma panels -- invented at the University of Illinois and used in the PLATO system terminals -- used the display pixels as memories. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 16:18:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525134708.J707@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> Message-ID: <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tom Jennings wrote: > For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and > sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a coincident-voltage > memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. Sounds like a fun project! Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... You have an X-Y matrix. Steady state, you apply +7.5V to each X line, and +97.5V to each Y line, so each tube has 90V across it. You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes in the same row and column see 97.5V. I'm guessing that if you measure the current in those lines, you can tell when it strikes, or maybe you just wait long enough before dropping the lines back to the steady state. To turn off a particular tube, you raise the X line to 15V and drop the Y line to 90V. Now there's only 75V across the selected tube, while other tubes in the same row and column will still have 75V. Again, there should be a current drop when the selected tube turns off. And you read a tube either by trying to turn it on, or trying to turn it off. If the current doesn't change enough, it hasn't flipped. The voltages will need to be controlled fairly well, since the margins are narrow. Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? Eric From Tim at rikers.org Wed May 25 16:40:14 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:40:14 -0500 Subject: this weeks salvage stuff Message-ID: <4294F0BE.9050406@Rikers.org> a salvage area I visit weekly has some some stuff that may or may not be of interest. IBM-3900 printer (LARGE!) 3 IBM-3179 G terminals sun stuff (normal) pc, racks, etc. Dallas TX I don't want any of it. I can bid on it in complete sets often 3 pallets full of stuff. Any interest? email me directly with how much you'd like me to bid, as well as how, and how soon, you will get it out of dallas. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-20050525 I need to place any bids by tomorrow 10am CDT -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 16:41:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip (was: Re: Disk archival techniques) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050525141158.L707@localhost> I think there's a distinct lack of perspective on just what the hell "archiving" means or who it is for. Sellam's remarks on appropriate tools etc I think are all excellent. I'm certainly no expert, but no one's even talked about what the hell the job is! Here's my take on it: Fake example: "preserving ZORK". What the hell does this even mean? 10 YEARS: We have a fair chance of running 10 yr old software, today mostly because there was so little change for so long, and the underlying systems were either trivial (CP/M, MSDOS) or relatively long-lived and well-documented (mini OSs and environments) that they can be either conjured up physically or emulated. Today's software enviornments (eg. WinXPPro) will certainly not be so trivial to emulate for sure. 25 YEARS: as many people will want to run ZORK as want to view magic lanterns; it will probably (dangerous word) be no more -- or less! -- interesting. Some few will want to know how it's produced, but their eyes will glaze over reading FORTRAN. 50 YEARS: Computer games and very broadly related technolgies will be valued mainly for their cultural value, only. A full century into a world with computers, implementation details will be as intersting as the trials and tribulations of making good wooden barrels. One or two examples will suffice to illuminate the ancient technologies. 100 YEARS: the cultural underpinnings for even understanding what the hell a text-based adventure game *IS* will be as common as the proper use of chamberpots. Yuck! You do what? With what?! 1000+ YEARS: Anything old and intact is interesting! The intricacies of construction thereof will be either so glaringly obvious as to require no discussion, or so utterly meaningless and obscure no one will care, or if in between once in a great while someone will want to reconstruct an example (the Contiki, or regen mammoth DNA) for a museum or TV show, and only the direct descendents of this List will go or watch it. The past is a good guide because people live in local, organic, non-nerdly cultures, on a day by day basis. They did/do/will have full lives of their own, and will not toss all of it away to embrace our bad 70's fashions and haircuts [oops, already wrong!] and detritus. However, for today's [replicable, media-based] thing to exist in 10, 25, 50, 100 or 1000 years, probably countless bazillions of copies needs to exist; most will be discarded, decayed, lost, forgotten, misunderstood, etc and one or two examples *might* survive. For this reason, probably any and all attempts at preservation are good. Also it's clear that regardless of type, there have got to be MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS more extant human artifacts today, than there were 100, 250, 1000 years ago. There are more people; there are more skills; there is capitalist-driven monstrous manufacturing. The value of any "thing" will drown utterly in thingness. It's not hard to imagine that in 2250, there will not be the shortage of 2005-representative cultural objects, as there is in 2005 of 1805-representative objects. And just as many people will care about them. I probably have more solitary precision and persistent objects in my lab than existed in the entire British Empire in 1500. Most of them are useless and stupid of course, but 500 years from now the planet will be drowing under megatons of craptacular artifacts. It makes me very, very satisfied that all the DRM freaks like Disney will find their stuff not archived because it's all locked up in stupid encrypted timed-existence-limited proprietary media. Good riddance to them. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 25 16:41:21 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050525214121.67974.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Barry Watzman wrote: > You don't understand how E-Bay works. If you bid $5 > and I bid $100, I win > the item .... for $6. And the fact that I had bid > $100 is never even seen, > by anyone. I understand it quite well. I believe that both you and Eric missed the point of my remark, which was simply that there was in each case another individual who was willing to pay essentially the same price at which the auction closed, therefore there was a market, however small, in which the exhorbitant closing prices of those G-15 document auctions was in fact the "correct" market price. You cannot blame an individual willing to pay that price as driving up prices -- it takes at least two bidders willing to pay "above market" prices to do this. His only alternative would have been to bid less, and lost. The situation is different in an ordinary sale, where the price will rise to whatever a single individual is willing to pay, as long as the seller is willing to hold out for a higher price. --Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 16:54:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is it just me ... In-Reply-To: <20050525214121.67974.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050525214121.67974.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64906.207.145.53.202.1117058053.squirrel@207.145.53.202> William wrote: > I believe that both you and Eric missed the point of my remark, which > was simply that there was in each case another individual who was > willing to pay essentially the same price at which the auction closed, > therefore there was a market, however small, in which the exhorbitant > closing prices of those G-15 document auctions was in fact the "correct" > market price. That's not what you said. You said: > In all fairness, the prices he pays are only marginally more than the > runner-up bidder, Literally true, but only because that's always true on eBay. > so he's not the only one driving up the prices. Also literally true, but you seemed to be trying to imply that if an eBay auction has one person bidding $x for an item, that adding a second person bidding at $x doesn't drive up the price, which is false for the reasons I gave previously. Eric From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 25 17:08:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:08:35 -0400 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <4293AC5D.8080300@bitsavers.org> References: <4293AC5D.8080300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4294F763.nailJCP11NXLU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> its really driving up the price of stuff unnecessarily. Al replied: > This (dkdkk, ed sharpe, sassyscottie, et al.) has started to > scan. [...] It makes me fee really great to be giving this stuff > away too, after having paid through the nose for it. Well, I can testify that I appreciate it being available for free. I have to wonder: is the availability for so much old documentation for free: 1. Driving down E-bay prices for documentation because so many similar things are available for free? 2. Driving up E-bay prices for documentation because so many are "hooked" into the hobby by the bitsavers archive? 3. Driving up E-bay prices for physical items because appropriate documentation is available for free at bitsavers? It's one thing to be a small player in the market, it's another to try to figure out what your big moves do to the market! Tim. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed May 25 17:23:52 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:23:52 +0100 Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <4294F763.nailJCP11NXLU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <005201c56178$6f56daa0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > I have to wonder: is the availability for so much old > documentation for free: > > 1. Driving down E-bay prices for documentation because so > many similar things are available for free? In the late 1990s I used to pay maybe ?5-?10 for a handbook or manual that I wanted. Prices there don't seem to have moved much. When I sell excess tech books/manuals now they seem to go for about that sort of price (except when there is an inexplicable blip and something goes for ?20). > 2. Driving up E-bay prices for documentation because so many > are "hooked" into the hobby by the bitsavers archive? I don't see that happening. _Some_ docs go for way more than I want to pay right now. Then again, I don?t have a PDP-11/60 that I absolutely need the printset for right now, so maybe my need is not great enough. > 3. Driving up E-bay prices for physical items because > appropriate documentation is available for free at > bitsavers? You would think so, but this does not seem to happen (much). I've even answered bidders' quiestions pointing them to online copies of whatever they are bidding on and they still continue to bid (sometimes). I imagine that if I were trying to resurrect a PDP-11/60 I would prefer to have a paper printset to stare at rather than flicking from page to page on a computer screen. But I might change my mind if I had to pay ?50+ for the privilege :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 17:29:51 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050525144212.U707@localhost> On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: >> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a coincident-voltage >> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > > Sounds like a fun project! > > Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... Actually, it might be easy enough to be fun. There aren't many storage method that are direct-readout of all cells! (It would make a display too). > You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising > the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes > in the same row and column see 97.5V. I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, striking the entire line. I think the approach is right though, but I think entangling address and data is needed: I'll call Ne tube turn-on strike; turn-off break. Lessee: Strike >= 100V. Break <= 80V. Select steady-state cell row (X) and column (Y) voltage to be 90V. Off cells remain off; on cells remain on (series R's per tube allow per-cell variation). Let's say you arbitrarily run X= 90V, Y=0V, for non-addressed cells. WRITING A 1: * Raise line X to 95V. * Drop line Y to -5V. - Line X cells see 95V; line Y cells see 85V; no state-change. - Cell X:Y sees 100V, strikes. WRITING A 0: * Drop line X to 85V. * Drop line Y to -5V. - Line X cells see 85V; line Y cells see 95V; no state-change. - Cell X:Y sees 80V, breaks. Now we know that these things are awful, and the strike/break voltages probably vary all over the place, and margins will be hard to determine and maintain, but likely with 1% or better regulation on each V and/or temperature compensation or whatever it'll work. Reading is problematic; the problem is that the X and Y lines can't be used for readout, as you have to hold them at constant V to maintain cell contents. But we know that a conducting cell maintains a constant voltage across it, so if you yank it's line to voltage N, the other end must be at voltage N+80V. You mentioned measuring current to sense cell contents; this implies destructve readout, but that's been done before. I now have to do work I'm paid for.... :-) but this is pretty interesting! > Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? As far as I can tell from reading literature, basically the metal electrodes develop non-conducting surfaces (eg. oxidation) from impurities in and outgassing from the glass and metal. Heat accellerates it (typical chemistry). Too much current makes them hot. 50 year old Nixies routinely work though so I dont see any short-term problems with them. You could easily measure strike time and off time; I never have. I suspect off is slower, you have to wait for the electron cloud to dissipate, and quantum processes distribute out in time quite a ways. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 17:34:55 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tom Jennings wrote: > For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and > sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a > coincident-voltage > memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. I replied: > If the numbers are 80V and 100V... [matrix drive ideas snipped] I've just looked at the specifications for Chicago Miniature Lamp neon bulbs, and it looks like they don't have anything suitable. The problem is that the specifications for the "maintain" and "breakdown" (start) voltage ranges are too wide, and often there is overlap. So unless you are willing to cherry-pick bulbs that meet tighter specs, 2-D matrix drive doesn't seem practical. For instance, the 4AD and 4AE bulbs do have a nice wide separation between the maximum maintain voltage and minimum breakdown voltage, but the ranges are too wide: rated maintain breakdown current voltage voltage ------- -------- --------- 4AD 0.50 mA 60-80V 105-135V 4AE 0.50 mA 60-80V 120-150V For symmetric drive you need to deal with three voltages (in opposite polarities for X and Y): A - below minimum maintain when applied to both X and Y, within maintain range when applied to just one B - nominal maintain when applied to both X and Y C - above maximum breakdown when applied to both X and Y, within maintain range when applied to just one This results in five inequalies to be satisfied. FOr the 4AD: 2*A < 60 - guarantee turn-off 2*B >= 80 - guarantee maintain 2*C >= 150 - guarantee turn-on A+B > 80 - don't turn off non-selected bulbs B+C < 120 - don't turn on non-selected bulbs Unfortuantely there is no set of numbers for A, B, and C that satisfy all five inequalities. For the asymmetric case, you have six variables, since there are different voltages used for each of three states on X and Y. A+D < 60 B+E >= 80 C+F >= 150 A+E > 80 B+D > 80 B+F < 120 C+E < 120 I haven't tried to find a solution to this. Is there any readily available software (preferrably free) that solves sets of inequalities like this? I also can't find a distributor that stocks the 4AD or 4AE bulbs. The C2A is avaialble for $0.186 each in quantity 5000 from Newark, but the characteristics are even more unsuitable. Eric From cctalk at randy482.com Wed May 25 17:36:10 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:36:10 -0500 Subject: Is it just me... References: <4293AC5D.8080300@bitsavers.org> <4294F763.nailJCP11NXLU@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000e01c5617a$2a0a0010$173cd7d1@randy> From: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:08 PM >>> its really driving up the price of stuff unnecessarily. > > Al replied: >> This (dkdkk, ed sharpe, sassyscottie, et al.) has started to >> scan. [...] It makes me fee really great to be giving this stuff >> away too, after having paid through the nose for it. > > Well, I can testify that I appreciate it being available for free. > > I have to wonder: is the availability for so much old documentation for > free: > > 1. Driving down E-bay prices for documentation because so many similar > things are available for free? > > 2. Driving up E-bay prices for documentation because so many are > "hooked" into the hobby by the bitsavers archive? > > 3. Driving up E-bay prices for physical items because appropriate > documentation is available for free at bitsavers? > > It's one thing to be a small player in the market, it's another to > try to figure out what your big moves do to the market! > > Tim. I'm sure Herb Johnson will pipe in and possibly agree with part of what I say: Many collectors want original manuals and will pay big $ for some, while this doesn't apply to the guy selling a photo copy it still drives up prices in general. Many people want printouts that they can hold in their hands and don't have a cheap way of getting decent printouts, inkjet printing is both expensive and is not as durable as laser/photo copies. Many people are unaware of the PDF's. Many people still use dial-up accounts and would rather pay someone to snail mail them docs. Many PDF's are harder to read than photo-copies (I always try to proof mine after scanning). Many purchases are spur of the moment without even loopking for free copies. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 17:48:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525144212.U707@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525144212.U707@localhost> Message-ID: <41472.207.145.53.202.1117061286.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote: > You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising > the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes > in the same row and column see 97.5V. Tom wrote: > I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: > when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, > striking the entire line. Nope. 7.5V 0V X0 X1 | | | | 97.5V Y0 --------90V-----------97.5V | | | | 105.0V Y1 --------97.5V----------105V Locations (0,0), (1,0), and (1,0) are all still below the strike voltage. For turning off location (1,1): 7.5V 15V X0 X1 | | | | 97.5V Y0 --------90V-----------82.5V | | | | 90.0V Y1 --------82.5V----------75V Locations (0,0), (1,0), and (1,1) are still above the maintain voltage. Analysis is easier if you center the voltages around zero, as in my later posting. My original numbers are centered but with a fixed DC offset. I wrote: > Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? Tom wrote: > As far as I can tell from reading literature, basically the metal > electrodes develop non-conducting surfaces (eg. oxidation) from > impurities in and outgassing from the glass and metal. Chicago Miniature Lamp says that DC operating life is 60% of AC. However, the lifetime specs given for "circuit element" lamps (as opposed to "indicator") are for DC. Eric From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 17:51:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050525154706.P707@localhost> On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I've just looked at the specifications for Chicago Miniature Lamp > neon bulbs, and it looks like they don't have anything suitable. > The problem is that the specifications for the "maintain" and > "breakdown" (start) voltage ranges are too wide, and often there > is overlap. So unless you are willing to cherry-pick bulbs that > meet tighter specs, 2-D matrix drive doesn't seem practical. THat is a problem, huh :-) What did HP use in their old thermometer-type counters? THere are still bazillions of the old NE-2 types around, surplus. I wonder what they are like. Time to hit old literature. If there was some way to work addressing schemes where instead of varying voltages, you vary time-constant, you could pulse the selected cell with a voltage sufficient to overcome the too-many-variables problem. From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 17:55:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <41472.207.145.53.202.1117061286.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525144212.U707@localhost> <41472.207.145.53.202.1117061286.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050525155156.L707@localhost> On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote: >> I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: >> when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, >> striking the entire line. > > Nope. I stand corrected! > I wrote: >> Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? > > Tom wrote: >> As far as I can tell from reading literature, basically the metal >> electrodes develop non-conducting surfaces (eg. oxidation) from >> impurities in and outgassing from the glass and metal. > > Chicago Miniature Lamp says that DC operating life is 60% of AC. > However, the lifetime specs given for "circuit element" lamps (as > opposed to "indicator") are for DC. Ahh... the Nixie lit explicitly talks about element life. If one element is held lit for long term you get a limited life; if it varies as much as once a day life dramatially increases. I think for memory purposes we'd be safe... I think the numbers were "short" life 10K hours, "long" 100K hours. I bet it's also dependent on current. app note here: http://wps.com/archives/Burroughs/index.html I think paper N102. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 25 17:57:21 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <200505252257.PAA27820@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a coincident-voltage >>> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. >> >> Sounds like a fun project! >> >> Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > >Actually, it might be easy enough to be fun. There aren't many >storage method that are direct-readout of all cells! (It would >make a display too). > Hi Hp made a counter tube using several electrodes. The idea was that there was only enough current to keep one electrode at a time lit. It might be more practical to make a storage element with multiple electrodes instead of depending on matching several NE-2's. Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 18:01:57 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:01:57 -0700 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <429503E6.CE50FDE0@cs.ubc.ca> If I recall, the 'famed' 'review of computer memory technologies' article (1953) by Eckert[*] included a mention of a 2D matrix of neon lamps, but it was more of a proposed technique than an implemented one. I think the problem with neon lamps (or cold-cathode gas-discharge devices) for memory in a 2D matrix of any size was the widely varying characteristics of individual devices. The selection of voltages to keep every device happy or the selection of enough devices with sufficiently matched parameters was problematic. (There are at least two parameters - the strike voltage and the dropout voltage - of consequence.) Even gaseous voltage regulator tubes, specifically targeted for a particular voltage (such as VR150/0D3) and with only one parameter to worry about, have quite a variation between tubes. [*] Reprinted in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, V20/N4, OctNov 1998. The article also mentions other bizarre suggestions for memory such as temperature-sensitive pigments, coherers, corona-discharge, etc. Eric Smith wrote: > > Tom Jennings wrote: > > For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and > > sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a coincident-voltage > > memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > > Sounds like a fun project! > > Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > > You have an X-Y matrix. Steady state, you apply +7.5V to each X line, > and +97.5V to each Y line, so each tube has 90V across it. > > You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising > the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes > in the same row and column see 97.5V. > > I'm guessing that if you measure the current in those lines, you can > tell when it strikes, or maybe you just wait long enough before dropping > the lines back to the steady state. > > To turn off a particular tube, you raise the X line to 15V and drop > the Y line to 90V. Now there's only 75V across the selected tube, > while other tubes in the same row and column will still have 75V. > Again, there should be a current drop when the selected tube turns > off. > > And you read a tube either by trying to turn it on, or trying to turn > it off. If the current doesn't change enough, it hasn't flipped. > > The voltages will need to be controlled fairly well, since the > margins are narrow. > > Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? > > Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 25 18:05:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <200505252305.QAA27825@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >I wrote: >> You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising >> the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes >> in the same row and column see 97.5V. > >Tom wrote: >> I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: >> when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, >> striking the entire line. > >Nope. > > 7.5V 0V > > X0 X1 > | | > | | > 97.5V Y0 --------90V-----------97.5V > | | > | | >105.0V Y1 --------97.5V----------105V > > >Locations (0,0), (1,0), and (1,0) are all still below the strike >voltage. > Hi When building neon logic, it might be better to consider using capacitive coupling to connect up your logic. Otherwise you may find that you'll have a significant level shifting problem. Just a thought Dwight From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 18:13:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: neon tube memories Message-ID: <20050525160757.N707@localhost> http://wps.com/archives/Burroughs/images/N101-5.jpg OUCH! OK, assuming Nixies are more or less the same as other Ne devices, they will make lousy memories. * Ionization time is approxmately 50mS. Longer in the dark! With keepalive currents etc "as low as 10 microseconds". OK they're slow. * electrode deterioration is via sputtering, not impurities. Varies approx. as the 3rd-power of current. Clearly, neons in HP counters are probably the traditional constant bias generators. They were typically used in DC-coupled amplifiers to provide plate-to-next-grid drop. Neons also got used with CdS cells and the like to make 60Hz photo choppers. Unless someone has som ehard data on them being used "digitally" I'd assume the HP counter use was simply as generic, non-switching circuit elements. A write-only neon memory would still make a nice addressable display! From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 25 18:14:33 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:14:33 -0700 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525155156.L707@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525144212.U707@localhost> <41472.207.145.53.202.1117061286.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525155156.L707@localhost> Message-ID: <1117062873.6875.7.camel@linux.site> You might want to look at the following book: "1966 Applications of Neon Lamps and Gas Discharge Tubes." By Edward Bauman, Signalite inc There's an online version of the book at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electricstuff/oldbooks.html Chapter V covers "neon memory switches". Pretty cool stuff. I especially liked the bistable multivibrator (aka flip-flop) using 2 neon lamps. On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 15:55 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Tom wrote: > >> I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: > >> when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, > >> striking the entire line. > > > > Nope. > > I stand corrected! > > > > I wrote: > >> Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? > > > > Tom wrote: > >> As far as I can tell from reading literature, basically the metal > >> electrodes develop non-conducting surfaces (eg. oxidation) from > >> impurities in and outgassing from the glass and metal. > > > > Chicago Miniature Lamp says that DC operating life is 60% of AC. > > However, the lifetime specs given for "circuit element" lamps (as > > opposed to "indicator") are for DC. > > Ahh... the Nixie lit explicitly talks about element life. If one > element is held lit for long term you get a limited life; if it > varies as much as once a day life dramatially increases. I think > for memory purposes we'd be safe... > > I think the numbers were "short" life 10K hours, "long" 100K hours. > > I bet it's also dependent on current. > > app note here: > > http://wps.com/archives/Burroughs/index.html > > I think paper N102. > > -- TTFN - Guy From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 25 18:17:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >So tell me then how to read the information from a Quipu. It's a simple > >device: just a bunch of multi-colored knotted string. If you can figure > >this out, there's a huge community of archaeologists who study the Incas > >who would erect a permanent shrine for you to celebrate your name for all > >eternity. > > This is my point. Actually, your point was this: > These stupid people won't have any concept of a computer, so it is > unlikely that they will be able to read a tape, cd, etc. You will have > to carve the data on stone blocks in foot high letters. You were being facetious of course, but I was not. > The quipu was apparently their equivalent of our > spreadsheet. They were easy for them to use, and easily understood. > They aren't even "compressed", "tarred", or "zipped", but still lost. > Once many could "write"/read them, and they were meant for long > term archival use (at least many seem to have been archived). As > easy as it was for them, and as important as they thought these > documents were, we are unable to read them. I would imagine you'd agree that we are pretty smart and that the Quipu is pretty simple, yet we still have not successfully decoded their meaning. > They thought it was good for long term storage, but we haven't a clue > as to how to read them. What is so different about computer archives, > no matter how simple it seems to us, that ours wouldn't suffer the > same fate. So getting back to the point, why make archives even more complex by wrapping the riddle in an enigma? > > The ancient Egyptians were by all measures a fairly advanced society for > > their place in history, yet the only reason we know how to read their > > heiroglyphic writings is because we found teh Rosetta Stone that basically > > translated it for us. Again, you cannot assume English will be known in > > the future. > > Same point. The Egyptians thought it was good enough, and easy > enough, for use as a long term archive (see all the obelisks they > made). We still lost the understanding of how to understand them. > How much simpler can you get than "cartoons" carved in stone? > Yet we still lost the ability to read them for a thousand+ years. > Will there be a Rosetta stone to help future people to > understand a long lost CP/M archive? I don't care how > "simple" you think a storage format is, it won't help it > in the long run. But will you agree that it at least makes things easier if the archives are in a plain format? Would the Rosetta Stone have been any help if the heiroglyphics had been transcribed to papyrus, then rolled up and stuffed in a sack to make them easier to distribute and store? No, it would not. The papyrus would have crumbled to dust. > The archive should be for our own use, not some theoretical idiot 2000 > years from now trying to boot a Kaypro. He's probably going to have a > whole different set of problems with an archive than we could conceive; > like locating the "any" key. Right, so don't make the archives more complex than they need to be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 17:45:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:45:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <4293FC11.9090501@one.woovis.com> from "James Nugen" at May 25, 5 00:16:17 am Message-ID: > That's kind of funny! I've been looking at the same topic recently. > Here is a site I just > found a few days ago which has 3 scanned books on the topic: I have no idea if it's there, but one good book on this (and on other related subjects' is called 'Cold Cathode Tube Circuit Design'. I am told, though, it's not easy to find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 18:08:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:08:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117029398.6376.50.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 25, 5 01:56:38 pm Message-ID: > > > Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point > the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly > broke :-) > > On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high; > after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber > with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible. You have tried fiddling with the 2 user controls? What I would do is : Pull the case (it's the 6 screws on the front), take off the sheilds, etc if they're there. You'll see the CGA card in the slot on the left, next to the PSU/monitor. The monitor video is the yellow/black pair plugged into this card. Unplug it, also unplug the monitor power. I can't rememmber where this 2-pin connector is located, it may well be in the cable tunnel under the chassis. Connect a CGA monitor to the DE9 on the CGA card and power up. Even without a boot disk, it should do the memory test and fall into ROM BASIC. If not, you've got a logic problem to debug. Try again, this time with a composite monitor (US TV rates) connected to the RCA socket on the CGA card. Ifyou get no display this time, debug the composite video circuit on the CGA card. If that works, then it's a good bet there's a signal on the intneral monitor connector too, the only thing that could remove it would be a cracked track. OK, now we need to look at the monitor itself. The first problem is getting inside it. From what I remmeber, it's assembled with Bristol Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap. The monitor is fairly conventional (and I have the IBM TechRef schematic, which I think has a few typos on it -- 'H2VDC' is really '+12VDC' (!). It's clearly a Zenith chassis, and the only IC has a Zenith part number ( 221-86 ). That's clearly the line (horizontal) oscillator and may be something like an LM1391, but I am not certain. Still, you're not looking for a horizontal fault yet. The next useful thing is that the first digit of the component reference number gives the area it's used in : 1 : Horizontal 2 : CRT 3 : Vertical 4 : Video Some useful component references for you : Q401 Video Output Q402 Video Driver Q403 Video Amp 2 Q404 Video Amp 1 Q405 Video Amp 3 Q406 Video Drive 1 Q407 Video Clamp Q408 Not used Q409 Sunc Seperator Q301 Vert Osc Q302 Osc 1 Q303 Diff Amp Q304 Vert Driver Q305 not used Q306 Vert Output Q307 Vert Output Q308 Vert Retrace That should be enough to get you started. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 18:13:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:13:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <1117033153.6376.94.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 25, 5 02:59:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 11:17 -0300, Andrew Reynolds wrote: > > On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:49:12PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > They also use the Sun Y serial cable that splits one DB-25 into > > A/B serial ports, as well as an external dongle for audio. The other DB-25 is > > a parallel port. > > Heh, so I just discovered. The parallel port lines up with what's > labelled as Serial port A on the back of the case :-( > > Luckily I don't think I've destroyed any serial hardware on the PC I was > using as a terminal! I think it's stuck trying to do a network boot at I would be suprised if you had. Serial ports don't normally mind TTL levels applied to them. But the TTL parallel port on the Sparc board probablyt didn't like RS232 levels. How much damage has been done remains to be seen I gures. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 18:16:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:16:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <10505251836.ZM26347@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 25, 5 06:36:11 pm Message-ID: > I know. The first oscillator I ever built was a relaxation oscillator > using a neon lamp. Me too. It was also the first project I ever built from a magazine article (the 'Neon Novelty' from Everyday Electronics back in the early 70's). Since the 2-neon version could be built on a chocolate block, and since this was before I'd learnt to solder, it was an ideal project for me (even if a 90V dry battery was a little dangerous...). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 18:38:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:38:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: neon tube memories In-Reply-To: <20050525160757.N707@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at May 25, 5 04:13:38 pm Message-ID: > Unless someone has som ehard data on them being used "digitally" > I'd assume the HP counter use was simply as generic, non-switching > circuit elements. The HP5245 counter certainly used neons as memory elements -- I have the instrument and the service manual which has a section on the operation of the counter module. Each counter module contains 8 transistors wired as 4 bistables. Diode steering is added to make it count either in 1242 BCD code or 1248 (the latter being one of the options available for the instrument). The collectors of the transistors go to the neons via resistor (and diode?) networks. By varying the voltage on one of the lines you can transfer the state of the counter to the 8 neons and latch it there. The neons are mounted in a plastic block with a thick-film circuit on top. The thich film elements are CdS photoresistors arranged in a decoder tree which directly drives a nizie tube. Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 transistors! > > > A write-only neon memory would still make a nice addressable > display! Somewhere I have a neon display which seems to be a dot-matix unit (7 dots high by perhaps 100 long) with transfer electrodes like a Dekatron tube. You apply 7 'bits' to the right hand column, then toggle the transfer electrodes appropriately and all the dots move left one column. Repeat to built up the pattern you want in the display. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed May 25 18:51:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip Message-ID: <200505252351.QAA27835@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 25 May 2005, Kevin Handy wrote: > ---snip--- > >> The archive should be for our own use, not some theoretical idiot 2000 >> years from now trying to boot a Kaypro. He's probably going to have a >> whole different set of problems with an archive than we could conceive; >> like locating the "any" key. > >Right, so don't make the archives more complex than they need to be. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Hi Kevin I'm sure if you needed an archived image zipped before you could use it and you requested it that way, Sellam could provide it in that format for you ;) That doesn't mean he must store it that way. Why it is only useable in zipped form I don't really understand but if that is what you NEED for your "own use", that is what you can get. It doesn't restrict how Sellam stores the image. It is hard to say what piece of information will be of interest to someone 2000 years from now. It may be a Kaypro that is being researched or it might just be that they wanted to know what the typical storage media size was. If the information was zipped first, they'd need to first recognize that it was zipped. They'd then need to create a working unzipper before they could answer either question. Finding an unzipped source might be just as hard. I use zipped files for my personal archive but then I know who is going to look at it. I'd even expect to send an image to Sellam as a zipped file. For the purpose he has in mind, I'm sure he'd unzip it. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 25 18:53:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:53:37 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <0IH200H8QL106FW8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Tom Jennings wrote: >> For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and >> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a coincident-voltage >> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > >Sounds like a fun project! > >Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > >You have an X-Y matrix. Steady state, you apply +7.5V to each X line, >and +97.5V to each Y line, so each tube has 90V across it. > >You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising >the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes >in the same row and column see 97.5V. > >I'm guessing that if you measure the current in those lines, you can >tell when it strikes, or maybe you just wait long enough before dropping >the lines back to the steady state. > >To turn off a particular tube, you raise the X line to 15V and drop >the Y line to 90V. Now there's only 75V across the selected tube, >while other tubes in the same row and column will still have 75V. >Again, there should be a current drop when the selected tube turns >off. > >And you read a tube either by trying to turn it on, or trying to turn >it off. If the current doesn't change enough, it hasn't flipped. > >The voltages will need to be controlled fairly well, since the >margins are narrow. > >Will neon bulbs have reduced lifetime if you run them on DC? > >Eric The numbers for the common NE2 were more like 65 and 90V and are also sensitive to light! Neons for logic were burned in for consistant threshold and extinguish voltages. Oh, and they are relatively slow. Other uses for Neons is they behave above the stike voltage like a zener diode so it's not uncommon to tsee them used as a 90V offset or reference. Allison From jnugen at one.woovis.com Wed May 25 18:53:52 2005 From: jnugen at one.woovis.com (James Nugen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:53:52 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42951010.6080103@one.woovis.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>That's kind of funny! I've been looking at the same topic recently. >>Here is a site I just >>found a few days ago which has 3 scanned books on the topic: >> >> > >I have no idea if it's there, but one good book on this (and on other >related subjects' is called 'Cold Cathode Tube Circuit Design'. I am >told, though, it's not easy to find. > > That's one of the books I'm scanning. Here are the other two: "Cold Cathode Tubes" by J.B. Dance "Cold Cathode Glow Discharge Tubes" by G. F. Weston -James Nugen From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed May 25 18:54:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:54:11 -0500 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <10505242230.ZM24421@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10505242230.ZM24421@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050525185411.684362af.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 May 2005 22:30:34 +0100 (BST) Pete Turnbull wrote: > On May 24 2005, 17:11, James Fogg wrote: > > > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. > > No, neons happily pass AC. You must be thinking of something else. > Neons act like 'zener diodes' in a sense, perhaps that is where he got the notion. Neon lamps fire at a constant voltage and can be used as relatively stable voltage references, similar to a zener diode. But other than 'voltage reference' use they are completely unlike diodes. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 18:47:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:47:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Is it just me... In-Reply-To: <000e01c5617a$2a0a0010$173cd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 25, 5 05:36:10 pm Message-ID: > I'm sure Herb Johnson will pipe in and possibly agree with part of what I > say: > > Many collectors want original manuals and will pay big $ for some, while > this doesn't apply to the guy selling a photo copy it still drives up prices > in general. > > Many people want printouts that they can hold in their hands and don't have > a cheap way of getting decent printouts, inkjet printing is both expensive > and is not as durable as laser/photo copies. > > Many people are unaware of the PDF's. > > Many people still use dial-up accounts and would rather pay someone to snail > mail them docs. > > Many PDF's are harder to read than photo-copies (I always try to proof mine > after scanning). > > Many purchases are spur of the moment without even loopking for free copies. > I certainly prefer paper copies. The only ways I have of reading pdfs are the local internet cafe or my parent's Mac. The latter has a printer, an old Apple LW2NT, but it takes about 5 minutes to transfer a full page bitmap to it over localtalk. Not exactly practical for a large printset! YEs, I can view the pdfs on-screen. But firstly I can't do that at my workbench or when stuck behind a PDP11 rack, or in bed, or... And secondly it takes a lot longer to display a page on the mac (and on every PC I've ever used, I am not talking about my slow PC here) than it takes me to flip through a paper manual. Sure I can't read the manual that fast, but I can tell if a page contains text, or a source listing, or a binary dump, or a schematic, or what. If I am looking, say, for a schematic, I can quickly skip over pages that contain other sorts of information. This I can't do on-screen. I am grateful for things like bitsavers. and I have asked a friend with a CD burner and broadband to burn the odd manual to a CD for me (don't worry, I haven't, and won't, ask him to grab everything, it's just the odd manual for machinss that I am actually interested in). But I certainly won't being giving up my collection of paper manuals, schematics, etc any time soon either. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 25 19:02:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:02:21 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <0IH200ALLLFK5D2B@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:54 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Eric Smith" >> >>I wrote: >>> You turn on a particular tube by dropping the X line to 0V and raising >>> the Y line to +105V. The selected tube sees 105V, while the other tubes >>> in the same row and column see 97.5V. >> >>Tom wrote: >>> I think your idea is generally right, but this detail seems wrong: >>> when X goes from +7.5V to 0V, the entire line will see 105V, >>> striking the entire line. >> >>Nope. >> >> 7.5V 0V >> >> X0 X1 >> | | >> | | >> 97.5V Y0 --------90V-----------97.5V >> | | >> | | >>105.0V Y1 --------97.5V----------105V >> >> >>Locations (0,0), (1,0), and (1,0) are all still below the strike >>voltage. >> > >Hi > When building neon logic, it might be better to consider >using capacitive coupling to connect up your logic. >Otherwise you may find that you'll have a significant >level shifting problem. > Just a thought >Dwight > The general design rules were pulse logic based so capacitive coupling was the norm and diodes were not uncommon. I've done simple binary counters and shift registers with NE2s and it's fun and fairly tolerent. Somewhere I've seen a complete schematic for a 3T (Tic Tac Toe) player that used Neon lamps and 2D21 thyratrons. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed May 25 19:02:56 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:02:56 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525154706.P707@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525154706.P707@localhost> Message-ID: <42951230.nailKOT13Z8Q5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Eric wrote: > I've just looked at the specification for Chicago Miniature Lamp > neon bulbs, and it looks like they don't have anything suitable. > The problem is that the specifications for the "maintain" and > "breakdown" (start) voltage ranges are too wide, and often there > is overlap. This doesn't rule out the use of commodity neon lamps. It's always true that V_breakdown > V_maintain. The specs are just written loosely. I've built several neon lamp gadgets over the years (I think you saw my 5-neon-in-a-sequence-flasher in fact) and if you start with a bunch of bulbs from the same batch you'll end up with matching way better than you'd expect from just the spec. Whether or not they're good enough for a given logic circuit may drive you to hand-match etc. The same thing is done with semiconductors, you know :-). Tim. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 19:06:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <42951230.nailKOT13Z8Q5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525154706.P707@localhost> <42951230.nailKOT13Z8Q5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <54194.207.145.53.202.1117065967.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tim wrote: > This doesn't rule out the use of commodity neon lamps. It's always > true that V_breakdown > V_maintain. The specs are just written loosely. Yes, but V_breakdown of lamp A may be less than V_maintain of lamp B, in which case they won't play nicely in a matrix. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 25 19:14:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:14:16 -0400 Subject: neon tube memories Message-ID: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: neon tube memories > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:38:52 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Unless someone has som ehard data on them being used "digitally" >> I'd assume the HP counter use was simply as generic, non-switching >> circuit elements. > >The HP5245 counter certainly used neons as memory elements -- I have the >instrument and the service manual which has a section on the operation of >the counter module. > >Each counter module contains 8 transistors wired as 4 bistables. Diode >steering is added to make it count either in 1242 BCD code or 1248 (the >latter being one of the options available for the instrument). > >The collectors of the transistors go to the neons via resistor (and >diode?) networks. By varying the voltage on one of the lines you can >transfer the state of the counter to the 8 neons and latch it there. > >The neons are mounted in a plastic block with a thick-film circuit on >top. The thich film elements are CdS photoresistors arranged in a decoder >tree which directly drives a nizie tube. > >Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 >transistors! Only takes 4bits to count to 10. Though it could be a switch tail ring counter. >> A write-only neon memory would still make a nice addressable >> display! > >Somewhere I have a neon display which seems to be a dot-matix unit (7 dots >high by perhaps 100 long) with transfer electrodes like a Dekatron tube. >You apply 7 'bits' to the right hand column, then toggle the transfer >electrodes appropriately and all the dots move left one column. Repeat to >built up the pattern you want in the display. > >-tony Boroughs Panaplex, I have a 32char version that I power up and it works. I've designed using the 40 char version pretty cool. Even got to visit the facility in NJ back in '73 where they were made along with the other gas tubes (nixe and the like.). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 25 19:16:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:16:29 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <0IH200HOYM346FY8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:54:11 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tue, 24 May 2005 22:30:34 +0100 (BST) >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On May 24 2005, 17:11, James Fogg wrote: >> >> > I seem to recall that neon's behave as diodes. I might be wrong. >> >> No, neons happily pass AC. You must be thinking of something else. >> > >Neons act like 'zener diodes' in a sense, perhaps that is where he got >the notion. Neon lamps fire at a constant voltage and can be used as >relatively stable voltage references, similar to a zener diode. But >other than 'voltage reference' use they are completely unlike diodes. Yes, they are bilateral. There is ssilicon device to mimic the neon called SBS (silicon bilateral switch) commonly used to drive Triacs. Allison From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 20:10:01 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:10:01 -0700 Subject: neon tube memories References: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <429521E9.D754A389@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > >Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 > >transistors! > > Only takes 4bits to count to 10. Though it could be a switch tail > ring counter. Flip-flops: 2 transistors per bit. 4 bits * 2 trans/bit = 8 trans. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 20:21:24 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: neon tube memories In-Reply-To: <429521E9.D754A389@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <429521E9.D754A389@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <33218.207.145.53.202.1117070484.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 > transistors! Allison wrote: > Only takes 4bits to count to 10. Though it could be a switch tail > ring counter. Brent wrote: > Flip-flops: 2 transistors per bit. 4 bits * 2 trans/bit = 8 trans. But 8 transistors used in any obvious way does not also get you a latch and display driver in addition to the counter. That's what makes the use of the neon lamps in the HP design exceptionally clever. Eric From frustum at pacbell.net Wed May 25 20:43:07 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:43:07 -0500 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525144212.U707@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050525144212.U707@localhost> Message-ID: <429529AB.1040306@pacbell.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a >>> coincident-voltage >>> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. >> >> >> Sounds like a fun project! >> >> Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > > > Actually, it might be easy enough to be fun. There aren't many > storage method that are direct-readout of all cells! (It would > make a display too). That is exactly the storage mechanism of the orange plasma display panels used by the Plato terminals. I'm sure the individual cells of a panel tracked each other quite well as compared to an assortment of a few hundred thousand neon lamps. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Wed May 25 20:48:21 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 21:48:21 EDT Subject: Neon logic Message-ID: <19c.342dfddc.2fc684e5@aol.com> Reading would actually be the easy part- drop a phototransistor in (optical) line with the NE - pricy but doesn't affect the stored data. Scott Quinn From tomj at wps.com Wed May 25 21:08:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: neon tube memories In-Reply-To: <33218.207.145.53.202.1117070484.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <429521E9.D754A389@cs.ubc.ca> <33218.207.145.53.202.1117070484.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050525190656.E707@localhost> Tony wrote: > Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 > transistors! You're right! -- I forgot I had even once seen one of these things, with the neon-bulb latches and the CdS "OR" (or is it NOR) hack. Then there's the phantastron counters, ... From vcf at siconic.com Wed May 25 21:12:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <429529AB.1040306@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > On Wed, 25 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >>> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a > >>> coincident-voltage > >>> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > >> > >> > >> Sounds like a fun project! > >> > >> Lessee... If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > > > > > > Actually, it might be easy enough to be fun. There aren't many > > storage method that are direct-readout of all cells! (It would > > make a display too). > > That is exactly the storage mechanism of the orange plasma display > panels used by the Plato terminals. I'm sure the individual cells of a > panel tracked each other quite well as compared to an assortment of a > few hundred thousand neon lamps. Ok, I'm sold. How do I find one of these terminals? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kai at werxltd.com Wed May 25 12:11:03 2005 From: kai at werxltd.com (Glenn W. Widner III) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:11:03 -0400 Subject: Is it just me ... Message-ID: <6D26A37EC2A21E4685935731AF69E0730F3DD9@flash.office.werxltd.com> Ah, but you could try to find out just how high the other person is bidding by small increments. eBay used to (and might still) tell you if you are tied with the current winner's highest bid. This is a technique merchants use (or used to) to drive up prices. -Wes -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:00 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Is it just me ... > In all fairness, the prices he pays are only > marginally more than the runner-up bidder You don't understand how E-Bay works. If you bid $5 and I bid $100, I win the item .... for $6. And the fact that I had bid $100 is never even seen, by anyone. If you are going to play the E-Bay game, it is very important to understand the intricate details of the bidding system completely. From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 25 12:27:19 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:27:19 -0500 Subject: zip now Archival quality printing Message-ID: One of my thoughts was to take an archival quality black pen and insert it into a pen plotter and use archival quality alkaline paper. Write out information, kind of an automated "monk" except they don't have to take time off for prayers, sleep and food. I think you need contact of the writing instrument against the paper. The pressure of the pen against the paper helps define the lettering. The paper fibers hold the ink. I have heard about using inkjets with "archival quality" inks. When using an inkjet you have to work about clogging jets, drying time, bleeding of the ink, and fading. There are existing examples of "old" books that have survived nearly intact and I think the idea is to keep it simple. Keep the pen and paper paradigm. Once I was able to hold and read a book that was over 400 years old it made me feel a connection with the person who expended the effort to create it. They did a lot of work and I was able to read it 400 years later. Mike From bv at norbionics.com Wed May 25 17:53:32 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:53:32 +0200 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <59471.207.145.53.202.1117055911.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <39084.207.145.53.202.1117060495.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <5632abd368cc33f375f46553bed41ee9@norbionics.com> On 26 May, 2005, at 00:34, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: >> For neon, from flawed memory, strike-over is around 100V, and >> sustain around 80V. [...] You could probably make a >> coincident-voltage >> memory from them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > > I replied: >> If the numbers are 80V and 100V... > [matrix drive ideas snipped] > > I've just looked at the specifications for Chicago Miniature Lamp > neon bulbs, and it looks like they don't have anything suitable. > The problem is that the specifications for the "maintain" and > "breakdown" (start) voltage ranges are too wide, and often there > is overlap. So unless you are willing to cherry-pick bulbs that > meet tighter specs, 2-D matrix drive doesn't seem practical. > Automatic testing and sorting should not be too difficult. As long as each row had about the same characteristics, the driver circuitry could compensate for differences. Many early portable computers used orange plasma displays which were actually such memories. They did not need any refresh, so the only thing missing was the readout circuitry. -- -bv From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed May 25 22:20:40 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:20:40 +0800 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? If so then I can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a dealer... On 5/26/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: > > Wai-Sun> A quick one: What is the cable that connects the DECmate II > Wai-Sun> to a VR201? > > The same as for the Pro, I believe (15 pin D-sub connector at each > end) which would make it a BCC02. > > paul > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed May 25 23:10:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T Safari laptop Message-ID: I was given an old Safari laptop, but no power supply. Does antone know what kind of voltage this thing wants? William DOnzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu May 26 00:54:49 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 01:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <17044.59544.351717.603265@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <17044.59544.351717.603265@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505260555.BAA02596@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> You could probably make a coincident-voltage memory from them... but >> they'd be slow I think, but pretty. > Not all that slow. The first plasma panels -- invented at the > University of Illinois and used in the PLATO system terminals -- used > the display pixels as memories. Yes-- and they were pig-slow. (I used PLATO in the late '70s, and even then it felt slow to me.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Thu May 26 01:23:05 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: discrete, historic memory, was Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505252305.QAA27825@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505252305.QAA27825@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050525231504.W1488@localhost> On Wed, 25 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > When building neon logic, it might be better to consider > using capacitive coupling to connect up your logic. > Otherwise you may find that you'll have a significant > level shifting problem. I think we've reinvented an old wheel that tends towards the square. Abandoned for good reason! Slightly changing subject (!), but remaining on discretely constructed memory, one truly practical memory that was tried and abandoned about 1952 (one of the Standards computers) was a switched capacitor memory. It was umm revived some years later and is now of course universal. A discrete-capacitor, diode-switched, dynamically-refreshed memory was built and tested and performed apparently well was built for SWAC? SEAC? or something in 51, 52 [ref in Huskey's COMPUTER HANDBOOK] but abandoned as solid-state diodes were prohibitively expensive. It would clearly be most straight-forward to build one today, even with el cheapo ceramic disks. Probably could do .25 sq in per cell on a PC board. And since one was actually made, it would be historically correct. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 26 01:57:49 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 01:57:49 -0500 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505260555.BAA02596@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <17044.59544.351717.603265@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505260555.BAA02596@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4295736D.9000007@pacbell.net> der Mouse wrote: >>>You could probably make a coincident-voltage memory from them... but >>>they'd be slow I think, but pretty. >> >>Not all that slow. The first plasma panels -- invented at the >>University of Illinois and used in the PLATO system terminals -- used >>the display pixels as memories. > > > Yes-- and they were pig-slow. (I used PLATO in the late '70s, and even > then it felt slow to me.) I used it for a grand total of one class around 1982 at the university of illinois, where it was all dreamed up. How much of that was due to the slow write times to the pixels vs. the fact that hundreds of terminals were hitting the mainframe driving it all over serial lines? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 26 02:53:16 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:53:16 -0700 Subject: neon tube memories References: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <429521E9.D754A389@cs.ubc.ca> <33218.207.145.53.202.1117070484.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <4295806D.CD5B748E@cs.ubc.ca> > Tony wrote: > > Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 > > transistors! > > Allison wrote: > > Only takes 4bits to count to 10. Though it could be a switch tail > > ring counter. > > Brent wrote: > > Flip-flops: 2 transistors per bit. 4 bits * 2 trans/bit = 8 trans. > > Eric Smith wrote: > > But 8 transistors used in any obvious way does not also get you a > > latch and display driver in addition to the counter. That's what > > makes the use of the neon lamps in the HP design exceptionally clever. Precisely. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 26 02:55:15 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:55:15 -0700 Subject: discrete, historic memory, was Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <200505252305.QAA27825@clulw009.amd.com> <20050525231504.W1488@localhost> Message-ID: <429580E4.7D0FE2AF@cs.ubc.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > Slightly changing subject (!), but remaining on discretely > constructed memory, one truly practical memory that was tried and > abandoned about 1952 (one of the Standards computers) was a > switched capacitor memory. It was umm revived some years later and > is now of course universal. > > A discrete-capacitor, diode-switched, dynamically-refreshed memory > was built and tested and performed apparently well was built for > SWAC? SEAC? or something in 51, 52 [ref in Huskey's COMPUTER > HANDBOOK] but abandoned as solid-state diodes were prohibitively > expensive. > > It would clearly be most straight-forward to build one today, even > with el cheapo ceramic disks. Probably could do .25 sq in per cell > on a PC board. And since one was actually made, it would be > historically correct. Don't forget discrete-capacitor dynamically-refreshed memory was pioneered by Atanasoff for the ABC in 1939-41, albeit mechanically accessed (rotating drum, 1500 bits, max access time 1 second). One of my languishing projects is a recreation of the ABC prototype (2 registers of 25 bits (capacitors) each on rotating disc, together with serial RVL[1] adder/subtractor. (Although such a recreation was already done for the Honeywell vs. Sperry-Rand trial in the 70s). [1] RVL: Resistor-Vacuum-tube-Logic - the original electronic logic family :) ... recently received a counter using Philips E1T[2] tubes. Not overly useful as a general-purpose memory but it is a state-holding device (3.3 equivalent bits), and another example of the bizarre-by-today's-standards techniques from the pre-IC days. [2] E1T provides similar functionality to dekatrons - one tube providing combined functionality of decade counter and display - but entirely different technology. The E1T is based on an electon beam held in 1 of 10 places (states) by a combination of electrostatic and magnetic fields. The beam can be shifted from place to place with pulses to accomplish the counting function. Beam then hits a flourescent screen in accordingly different spots for the 1-of-10 display. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu May 26 03:09:55 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:09:55 +0100 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 May 2005 19:53:37 EDT." <0IH200H8QL106FW8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200505260809.JAA13056@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Allison said: > Other uses for Neons is they behave above the stike voltage > like a zener diode so it's not uncommon to tsee them used > as a 90V offset or reference. I was searching through my books for any info on neons and came across a detailed description of using them in this way in the "Admiralty Handbook of Wirelss Telegraphy", 1938, complete with relevant formulae should you wish to design your own power supply. I have used "proper" gas stabilizer tubes myself. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu May 26 03:02:49 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:02:49 +0100 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 May 2005 00:16:06 BST." Message-ID: <200505260802.JAA12975@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > I know. The first oscillator I ever built was a relaxation oscillator > > using a neon lamp. > > Me too. It was also the first project I ever built from a magazine > article (the 'Neon Novelty' from Everyday Electronics back in the early > 70's). Since the 2-neon version could be built on a chocolate block, and > since this was before I'd learnt to solder, it was an ideal project for > me (even if a 90V dry battery was a little dangerous...). I built things like that too, back in the late '50s/early 60s. It was a result of acquiring a box full of ex-WD neons for a few pence. Flip-flops worked nicely, but an attempt to build a decade counter came to nothing. We tried the effect of light on them too, some oscillators wouldn't work in the dark, and I remember a magazine article that suggested using neons as cosmic ray detectors. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu May 26 05:25:00 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:25:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: another ebay weirdness Message-ID: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Uhhmmm.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5201935487 (not afiliated btw) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 26 06:10:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:10:03 +0000 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117105803.8163.4.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 00:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Wed, 2005-05-25 at 11:17 -0300, Andrew Reynolds wrote: > > > On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 01:49:12PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > They also use the Sun Y serial cable that splits one DB-25 into > > > A/B serial ports, as well as an external dongle for audio. The other DB-25 is > > > a parallel port. > > > > Heh, so I just discovered. The parallel port lines up with what's > > labelled as Serial port A on the back of the case :-( > > > > Luckily I don't think I've destroyed any serial hardware on the PC I was > > using as a terminal! I think it's stuck trying to do a network boot at > > I would be suprised if you had. Serial ports don't normally mind TTL > levels applied to them. But the TTL parallel port on the Sparc board > probablyt didn't like RS232 levels. How much damage has been done remains > to be seen I gures. Well it certainly all seems happy enough; plus what the chap thought was the sound of a very ill hard disk has turned out to be a minature fan over one of the ICs, so there's a chance data might still be intact on the drive (fingers crossed he'd turned the thing on, heard the noise, and diagnosed it as a dead disk and turned it off again without waiting for it to try and boot :) On the parallel port side of things, I suppose it might have toasted something. No great loss there though. Grr to Cycle for not providing labels to stick over the back of the case to warn that what's labelled as a serial port actually isn't on their boards! (I suppose this is one time where the PC standard of using male sockets for serial ports would have made things obvious too) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 26 06:19:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:19:51 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117106391.8163.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 00:08 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Just picked up an IBM 5155 luggable which was working up until the point > > the chap switched it on to show me it working, when it promptly > > broke :-) > > > > On switch on it gives a narrow horizontal band of amber about 1.5" high; > > after a couple of seconds the whole screen changes to flickering amber > > with brighter zig-zag flyback lines visible. > > You have tried fiddling with the 2 user controls? Yep, those seem to work as expected. Unplugging the feed from the CGA card results in a black screen, so it's not as simple (as suggested on here) as it just being a connection issue... > > What I would do is : > > Pull the case (it's the 6 screws on the front), Way ahead of you there - I've dismantled it sufficiently to at least check it's not something obvious. Like you say though, connecting the CGA output to a known-good monitor's probably the next step in order to see whether it's a display fault or a logic problem. The screen appearance makes it look more like it's on the display side of things, but there's no guarantee at the moment. (incidentally there are signs that it tries to boot, it gets annoyed and beeps if the keyboard isn't plugged in etc., so it looks like most of the digital side of things is happy at the very least.) > From what I remmeber, it's assembled with Bristol > Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are > not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap. Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! > [snip] > That should be enough to get you started. Yep - many thanks! :) seeya Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu May 26 06:55:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:55:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5201935487 > > (not afiliated btw) you missed all the discussion about those last month then :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From news at computercollector.com Thu May 26 08:31:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:31:31 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <200505261328.j4QDSNUu058055@dewey.classiccmp.org> Nice article about the (first?) hard disk in today's Mercury News: http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/11743962.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 26 08:33:22 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:33:22 -0500 Subject: zip In-Reply-To: References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050526081628.05221298@mail> At 06:17 PM 5/25/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I would imagine you'd agree that we are pretty smart and that the Quipu is >pretty simple, yet we still have not successfully decoded their meaning. Although I agree with KISS principles, I'm not buying the validity of the quipu as a good analogy in this situation. I'm no expert on quipu. Haven't read the books. There seems to be a cottage industry in theories about them. With 20th century computer data, though, if some future soul is interested in it, an understanding of ASCII and probably English will be assumed. The point about the quipu is that their language and their encoding has been lost, and there seems to be many theories that assume they were purposefully encrypting the data and making it subject to retrieval and encoding through specialized human interpreters because of their perceived need for security and confidentiality of the information. Some seem to believe they're a mixture of mneumonic and numeric data. Who's to say that the future scholar is human? Isn't it more likely that the future scholar will be a machine, a mutated Google hell-bent on spidering 20th century trivia? - John From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu May 26 08:36:47 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:36:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <24527.62.177.191.201.1117114607.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Not at all, but asking $49 is a bit well, excessive imho.. ;) > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5201935487 >> >> (not afiliated btw) > > you missed all the discussion about those last month then :) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 08:48:36 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:48:36 -0400 Subject: neon tube memories References: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17045.54196.517000.505676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> Boroughs Panaplex, I have a 32char version that I power up Allison> and it works. I've designed using the 40 char version Allison> pretty cool. Even got to visit the facility in NJ back in Allison> '73 where they were made along with the other gas tubes Allison> (nixe and the like.). I don't believe a Panaplex uses the memory properties of gas discharges. But the PLATO terminal panels did. I have a short (4-8 pages or so) technical description of the mechanisms and the waveforms involved. Some of the magic has to do with stored charges on the walls of the gas cell. In the PLATO panels, the electrodes apparently have a thin insulating layer deposited on them, so they are not directly exposed to the neon. The "sustain voltage" is a fairly complex AC waveform, and the addressing is done by superimposing additional pulses on top of that, in a "coincidence" addressing scheme. All this worked very nicely in a quarter megapixel display (several thousands were made) and in bigger ones too (I've seen military displays of a megapixel -- 16 inch squares.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 09:04:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:04:40 -0400 Subject: zip now Archival quality printing References: Message-ID: <17045.55160.435103.57510@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike McFadden writes: Mike> One of my thoughts was to take an archival quality black pen Mike> and insert it into a pen plotter and use archival quality Mike> alkaline paper. That should work well with the older type of plotter that can take a drafting pen (Rotring/Rapidograph type). Those pens use "india ink" which is basically carbon black, so it doesn't fade over the centuries. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 09:06:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:06:30 -0400 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? References: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17045.55270.245888.5642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: Wai-Sun> Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? If so then I Wai-Sun> can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a Wai-Sun> dealer... Check the monitor and system box chapters in the Pro technical manual, volume 1, in Bitsavers. I suspect it's straight through. But the video (in the real cable at least) probably is carried over 75 ohm coax, not plain wire. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 09:21:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:21:42 -0400 Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A6A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200505250055.UAA11082@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050525134708.J707@localhost> <17044.59544.351717.603265@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505260555.BAA02596@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17045.56182.45597.807751@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >>> You could probably make a coincident-voltage memory from >>> them... but they'd be slow I think, but pretty. >> Not all that slow. The first plasma panels -- invented at the >> University of Illinois and used in the PLATO system terminals -- >> used the display pixels as memories. der> Yes-- and they were pig-slow. (I used PLATO in the late '70s, der> and even then it felt slow to me.) Don't confuse the capabilities of the display with that of the comm system. PLATO terminals used 1200 baud comm lines, though with efficient encoding they would do 180 characters per second (not 120 as with ASCII) and 60 vectors per second. The panels could do far more. The second generation PLATO terminal was an 8080 based device (the first generation was hardwired) and supported local execution of downloaded programs. Those would go dramatically faster. Even that show CPU would display text at 3000 characters per second, and that was limited by the 8 bit nature of the CPU (it would do block erase twice as fast, since there the CPU interface allowed 16 bits to be touched at a time -- and the panel was probably substantially faster than that). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 09:36:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:36:04 -0400 Subject: zip References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050526081628.05221298@mail> Message-ID: <17045.57044.185655.590776@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 06:17 PM 5/25/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> I would imagine you'd agree that we are pretty smart and that the >> Quipu is pretty simple, yet we still have not successfully decoded >> their meaning. John> Although I agree with KISS principles, I'm not buying the John> validity of the quipu as a good analogy in this situation. I'm John> no expert on quipu. Haven't read the books. There seems to be John> a cottage industry in theories about them. With 20th century John> computer data, though, if some future soul is interested in it, John> an understanding of ASCII and probably English will be assumed. Sure. But do you want to assume that these are still known? There are plenty of examples of languages and writing systems where this is no longer true (Etruscan, Easter Island). In some cases (Etruscan) the script is clear enough but that isn't sufficient to figure out the meaning. And there are other cases where language and writing were not known until some *very* smart people spent large quantities of brainpower sorting things out. Don't consider the Rosetta stone, that was a relatively simple job (that stone has the Greek translation right on it). Consider instead Linear B, or Sumerian cuneiform. Unless you want to assume that the language and encoding are NOT forgotten between now and the time when someone wants to read the archives, you have to use the Quipu (or Etruscan, or Sumerian, or Linear B) examples. It's worth while (and interesting) to read some of the literature on those subjects (for example the books by Chadwick on Linear B -- short yet very clear). You'll discover that this stuff isn't easy. It is not necessary to assume that people will be stupid -- instead, assume they are very smart, but they have to rediscover the basics from the record we're creating for them. See also http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/libIdeas.htm paul From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 26 09:36:04 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:36:04 -0500 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <200505261328.j4QDSNUu058055@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007e01c56200$42c8b8e0$12406b43@66067007> Thanks for the tip. Great article and I will have to see down the road if they get the museum open. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector Newsletter" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:31 AM Subject: Remembering RAMAC > Nice article about the (first?) hard disk in today's Mercury News: > > http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/11743962.htm > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net > Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ > > *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter > - 725 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! > - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all > - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 10:01:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:01:53 -0700 Subject: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <0a164a7eb077bc01b7e1439da75d2209@bitsavers.org> a few choice quotes from the article: "disks were coated with magnetic iron oxide paint, similar to that on the Golden Gate Bridge." Ah.. now I know where to get the stuff to fix the head crashes on my 2315 packs. "Before the advent of magnetic disk storage, computers stored their information on rolls of magnetic tape or coded punch cards. Retrieving information could take hours or days." Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) " he has been pushing to create a museum at 99 Notre Dame Ave. He may get his wish. The San Jose City Council recently passed a resolution promising to begin discussions around the idea." You can look at the success and speed the "little city that could" has had with doing anything with the PERHAM and CHAC collections for what is going to happen with this idea. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 10:11:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:11:35 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <0a164a7eb077bc01b7e1439da75d2209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: >> "Before the advent of magnetic disk storage, computers stored >> their information on rolls of magnetic tape or coded punch >> cards. Retrieving information could take hours or days." Al> Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of Al> tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) Did the drum come before RAMAC? An obvious difference is that drums, being head per track devices, always had rather low capacity. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 26 10:50:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:50:12 -0400 Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: <24527.62.177.191.201.1117114607.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <24527.62.177.191.201.1117114607.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: On 5/26/05, quapla at xs4all.nl wrote: > > Not at all, but asking $49 is a bit well, excessive imho.. ;) No doubt... for $49, I could probably make a stack of them. :-) Since the boring version was, ISTR, $18, q. 100, for no silkscreen, simple outline, I wouldn't expect a fancy version to be $31 more. I would do one thing, though, that I wish my predecessors had done - add one gold-plated edge finger, and some through-holes above the card edge so it would be trivial to cut and jump the card for Unibus or Qbus. I never have enough Qbus grant cards. For Unibuses, one routinely starts out with 8 or 9 grant cards in a DD11-DK and removes them as needed to add options. For Qbuses, one frequently has to shift cards up, down, left, or right, when reconfiguring. I know that back in the day, we routinely had less than one Qbus grant card per machine (i.e., 3 cards, 5 machines or some such), a very different ratio than with our Unibus boxes. Of course, one _needs_ a slab full of grant cards in a Unibus and one only needs to close up gaps in the bus for Qbus, but this is about what is convenient, not what is minimally necessary. -ethan P.S. - for folks new to this thread, I own the rights to that card (bought with the rest of the IP in 1994), a product of a former employer. From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 26 11:13:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050526081628.05221298@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > The point about the quipu is that their language and their encoding > has been lost, and there seems to be many theories that assume > they were purposefully encrypting the data and making it subject > to retrieval and encoding through specialized human interpreters > because of their perceived need for security and confidentiality > of the information. Some seem to believe they're a mixture of > mneumonic and numeric data. I've never read anywhere that the quipus were purposefully encrypted. Only priests and such were allowed to know how to read them, that's all. We actually do know how to "read" the information: the systems of knots used to encode numbers was decoded long ago (they're actually encoded as decimal!) But we still don't know what those numbers mean. Numbers encoded onto a string made of alpaca's wool might represent how many alpacas are in a particular herd. Or a brown string might represent baskets of potatoes, etc. Also, the numbers might represent verses in a song or even musical notes. But any information that may have explained the color coding scheme has destroyed by the stupid Spaniards. > Who's to say that the future scholar is human? Isn't it more likely > that the future scholar will be a machine, a mutated Google > hell-bent on spidering 20th century trivia? Or maybe it'll be searching for cool music and games to download... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 26 11:18:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <17045.57044.185655.590776@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > isn't easy. It is not necessary to assume that people will be stupid > -- instead, assume they are very smart, but they have to rediscover > the basics from the record we're creating for them. This is a better way to express what I have been trying to say. I don't literally mean that we should assume future people are stupid, but do assume that they won't have the benefit of knowing certain things and therefore we should make our archives as simple as is practical. This is common sense as far as I'm concerned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 26 11:19:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Al> Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of > Al> tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) > > Did the drum come before RAMAC? Yes. Many years (I believe about six). > An obvious difference is that drums, being head per track devices, > always had rather low capacity. And disks are much more efficient than drums anyway. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu May 26 11:26:26 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:26:26 -0500 Subject: If not IBM then Who was First Message-ID: <00d201c5620f$ab9d4750$12406b43@66067007> Most people give IBM credit for the Sept 1956 creation of the RAMAC as the first hard drive but is that true? From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 11:35:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: Al> Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of Al> tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) >> Did the drum come before RAMAC? Vintage> Yes. Many years (I believe about six). >> An obvious difference is that drums, being head per track devices, >> always had rather low capacity. Vintage> And disks are much more efficient than drums anyway. I don't think head per track disks are necessarily any more efficient than head per track drums. They overlapped somewhat in time, and I think the capacity was reasonably comparable. Moving head disks are far more efficient because you can put down a lot more tracks, even in the very early days, than is reasonable on a head per track ("fixed head") disk or drum. Consider the early 1960s 1311 with 100 tracks, vs. the RF11 with (if I remember right) 32 tracks. paul From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu May 26 11:35:19 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:35:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <24527.62.177.191.201.1117114607.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <6010.62.177.191.201.1117125319.squirrel@62.177.191.201> > On 5/26/05, quapla at xs4all.nl wrote: >> >> Not at all, but asking $49 is a bit well, excessive imho.. ;) > > No doubt... for $49, I could probably make a stack of them. :-) > > Since the boring version was, ISTR, $18, q. 100, for no silkscreen, > simple outline, I wouldn't expect a fancy version to be $31 more. I > would do one thing, though, that I wish my predecessors had done - add > one gold-plated edge finger, and some through-holes above the card > edge so it would be trivial to cut and jump the card for Unibus or > Qbus. I never have enough Qbus grant cards. For Unibuses, one That would have been an elegant solution. > routinely starts out with 8 or 9 grant cards in a DD11-DK and removes > them as needed to add options. For Qbuses, one frequently has to > shift cards up, down, left, or right, when reconfiguring. I know that > back in the day, we routinely had less than one Qbus grant card per > machine (i.e., 3 cards, 5 machines or some such), a very different > ratio than with our Unibus boxes. Of course, one _needs_ a slab full > of grant cards in a Unibus and one only needs to close up gaps in the > bus for Qbus, but this is about what is convenient, not what is > minimally necessary. Well, speaking of grant cards, I've about 60 of the Unibus knucle busters and 15 wide ones. Qbus ones I have only 3, but that's enough for me. > -ethan > > P.S. - for folks new to this thread, I own the rights to that card > (bought with the rest of the IP in 1994), a product of a former > employer. Ever considered to issue some new ones? ;) Maybe with a slogan of some kind? Ed From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 26 11:43:39 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:43:39 -0500 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? References: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.55270.245888.5642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001e01c56212$15314110$5e3dd7d1@randy> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:06 AM >>>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: > > Wai-Sun> Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? If so then I > Wai-Sun> can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a > Wai-Sun> dealer... > > Check the monitor and system box chapters in the Pro technical manual, > volume 1, in Bitsavers. > > I suspect it's straight through. But the video (in the real cable at > least) probably is carried over 75 ohm coax, not plain wire. > > paul As I remember the correct cable also includes an 8 pin keyboard connector. Does anyone else remember? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 11:58:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:58:39 -0400 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? References: <17044.41586.313268.798547@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.55270.245888.5642@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001e01c56212$15314110$5e3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <17046.63.291634.406219@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Randy" == Randy McLaughlin writes: Randy> From: "Paul Koning" Sent: Thursday, Randy> May 26, 2005 9:06 AM >>>>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: >> Wai-Sun> Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? If so then I Wai-Sun> can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a Wai-Sun> dealer... >> Check the monitor and system box chapters in the Pro technical >> manual, volume 1, in Bitsavers. >> >> I suspect it's straight through. But the video (in the real cable >> at least) probably is carried over 75 ohm coax, not plain wire. >> >> paul Randy> As I remember the correct cable also includes an 8 pin Randy> keyboard connector. On the Pro at least, the keyboard plugs into the VR201. The 15 pin monitor cable includes wires to carry the keyboard data. It's a 4 pin connector, by the way -- a standard handset connector (the kind that doesn't have an official RJ name). paul From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu May 26 12:38:11 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:38:11 +0100 Subject: Free stuff, please take them. (UK) Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050526181447.02afa390@albert> Hi.. ok, I have the following items that I have to get rid off SOON to make some space. somebody please take them away before they hit a skip.. IBM XT 5160 (unchecked) 2 off 8 pack floppy changers. (unchecked, came with the XT but may be unrelated, only one cartridge) IBM 8513002 13" VGA colour monitor (OK) Wyse 550 VGA mono monitor (OK) Three or more serial terminals, at least 2 of which are Wyse. A couple of epson wide carriage dot matrix printers At least three complete working clone 486 machines PeeCees with CD-Rom & network cards (they were actually set up to run as Windows terminal-server terminals) Several clone Pentium 1 PeeCees of various specifications. A fair selection of PC keyboards & serial mice. Various otherwise unremarkable monitors. Desk-height, PC server cabinet, on casters, AT form factor) Non-computer stuff: I've also got a couple of TVs (one sort-of working, and one occasionally-working) and a metal framed high bed to shift ... All of the above is FREE to anybody who can collect it from Salford/Manchester. I will consider posting items if absolutely nobody else will collect.. (probably about ?10 an item, anywhere in UK, via carrier.) I will even consider delivering, but will have to charge based on time & distance. Preference definitely goes to anybody willing to take all or most of it! Cheers, Rob. From spedraja at ono.com Thu May 26 13:20:13 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:20:13 +0200 Subject: Searching on Pick System References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050526181447.02afa390@albert> Message-ID: <003601c5621f$8f7ab8e0$1502a8c0@ACER> Hello. I've obtained recently some Pick OS (related with) books. I should like to play with this OS. Someone has available one Pick OS for PC, or one system to trade ? My hope would be to obtain one General Automation Zebra, but I see it complicated :-) Sergio From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 26 13:58:47 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If not IBM then Who was First In-Reply-To: <00d201c5620f$ab9d4750$12406b43@66067007> References: <00d201c5620f$ab9d4750$12406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <40370.207.145.53.202.1117133927.squirrel@207.145.53.202> jrkeys wrote: > Most people give IBM credit for the Sept 1956 creation of the RAMAC as the > first hard drive but is that true? No, RAMAC was really based on hardware salvaged from the Roswell crash. IBM worked with the USAF for nine years to figure out how it worked and how to manufacture a similar device. Eric From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Thu May 26 14:53:07 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:53:07 -0400 Subject: cleaning my storage in boston, dec & sun workstation gear avail. Message-ID: <0qbr6x228s.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> OK, I'm cleaning out and downsizing my storage space. It's just north of Boston, Massachusetts. Stuff I know I have way too much of, free to good home: 10? Vaxstation 3100 model 30 10? DECstation 2100 10? DEC VR262 19" mono fixed freq monitors 8? Sun Sparcstation 10 and 20, also probably sparcstation 1 & 2's 2 Sun Sparcstation ELC 2 Sun 3/110 2 Sun color monitors with 13W3, about 17-19", I forget model number 1 Fuji Supereagle 1 JDL 850 printer/plotter 1 Sun 4/260 VME system, various extra VME boards 1 19" fixed freq color monitor, rasterops I think 1 HP 9000/400, FSF surplus Most machines have a small working scsi drive and I have a fair number of keyboards, mice, scsi shoeboxes, umbilicals, etc. which I can pass on to people who take CPUs. The dec boxes mostly don't have an OS on them, I'm not sure about the suns. The suns may also have cd drives and/or floppies, the decs don't. Stuff I probably also want to get rid of, but am not as likely to dumpster in the next few weeks: 2 DECsystem 5300's (MIPSfair) 1 uVAX II in BA123 1 Sun/Hitachi 19" fixed freq monitor 1 Cut Sheet Feeder for Epson LQ-800. Also the LQ-800 itself. :) 1 or 2 Vaxstation 2000 or uVax 2000's. several cases of 8.5*11 plain white tractor feed paper Where else should I post this besides here and a.f.c and craiglist? Write to me at google at mirror.to if interested... --akb From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 26 15:12:32 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:12:32 +0200 Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: <6010.62.177.191.201.1117125319.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <19082.62.177.191.201.1117103100.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <23970.135.196.233.27.1117108520.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <24527.62.177.191.201.1117114607.squirrel@62.177.191.201> <6010.62.177.191.201.1117125319.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <42962DB0.1000303@hachti.de> Hi folks, one simple question: What is that card for? Please don't laugh - I am a bit too young to know everything about strange vintage computing stuff.... Thanks, Philipp From James at jdfogg.com Thu May 26 15:16:28 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:16:28 -0400 Subject: another ebay weirdness Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A92@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Hi folks, > > one simple question: > > What is that card for? > > Please don't laugh - I am a bit too young to know everything > about strange vintage computing stuff.... It passes the bus grant signal along to the next card on the bus. Empty slots between cards need one. From spare40tire at snet.net Thu May 26 15:26:38 2005 From: spare40tire at snet.net (Spare) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:26:38 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: Message-ID: <005501c56231$3905d410$13fafea9@New1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Remembering RAMAC > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Al> Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of >> Al> tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) >> >> Did the drum come before RAMAC? > > Yes. Many years (I believe about six). > IBM did have a drum based machine before the 305 Ramac. I believe the model # was 650 and was also known as a 650 Ramac. The 305 Ramacs we were installing in CT (1957 into the 60's) were 10MB disks with avg access time of 600ms. They were also 'programmed' using plug-in panels, like the EAM machines, 407's etc. and stored code. Both of these IBM machines still had only punched card input for programs and transactions. I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available even into the late 1980's. >> An obvious difference is that drums, being head per track devices, >> always had rather low capacity. > > And disks are much more efficient than drums anyway. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 26 15:25:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:25:21 +0000 Subject: If not IBM then Who was First In-Reply-To: <40370.207.145.53.202.1117133927.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <00d201c5620f$ab9d4750$12406b43@66067007> <40370.207.145.53.202.1117133927.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1117139121.8145.32.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-05-26 at 11:58 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > jrkeys wrote: > > Most people give IBM credit for the Sept 1956 creation of the RAMAC as the > > first hard drive but is that true? > > No, RAMAC was really based on hardware salvaged from the Roswell crash. > IBM worked with the USAF for nine years to figure out how it worked and > how to manufacture a similar device. ... and they could have done it in a few months if the darn aliens had been using FutureKeep :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 26 16:01:58 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <005501c56231$3905d410$13fafea9@New1200> References: <005501c56231$3905d410$13fafea9@New1200> Message-ID: <56530.207.145.53.202.1117141318.squirrel@207.145.53.202> spare40tire wrote: > IBM did have a drum based machine before the 305 Ramac. > I believe the model # was 650 and was also known as a 650 Ramac. I don't think it was known as a RAMAC. Maybe some people called it that *after* the introduction of the 305 and 350. > I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available even > into the late 1980's. IBM 1302, 87 MB, introduced September 1963 IBM 3330, 100 MB removable packs, introduced June 1970, expanded to 200 MB pack capacity in 1973 IBM 3340, first "Winchester" drive (sealed HDA), used 35 and 70 MB removable IBM 3348 "Data Modules", March 1973 DEC RP04 (manfactured by ISS/Sperry), 120 MB removable pack, mid 1970s Fujitsu Eagle M2351 14-inch hard drive, 380 MB, early 1980s Maxtor XT1065 67MB 5.25-inch hard drives, 1983. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu May 26 16:34:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:34:43 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <005501c56231$3905d410$13fafea9@New1200> <56530.207.145.53.202.1117141318.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17046.16627.923800.791645@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> spare40tire wrote: >> I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available >> even into the late 1980's. Eric> IBM 1302, 87 MB, introduced September 1963 CDC 6638, 100 MB, 1964 or thereabouts... (It even looks a bit like RAMAC.) Eric> DEC RP04 (manfactured by ISS/Sperry), 120 MB removable pack, 88 MB actually... Also DEC RP07 (also Sperry I think), 500 MB, around 1981. paul From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu May 26 16:51:24 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:51:24 +1200 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <005501c56231$3905d410$13fafea9@New1200> <56530.207.145.53.202.1117141318.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <01c001c5623d$0f78f6c0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Still have a partial copy of the handbook here for a GI (general instruments) 500FR 14 inch single platter HDD- 16 megaBITS capacity, platter spun up to 3600 rpm by a 'small' 1/2 HP motor. Dates on the drawings range from early 1971 to 1974. The platter is still here-makes a nice gong. The box this was in was std rack width and about 8-10 inches high-and nearly three feet front to rear! DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Remembering RAMAC > spare40tire wrote: >> IBM did have a drum based machine before the 305 Ramac. >> I believe the model # was 650 and was also known as a 650 Ramac. > > I don't think it was known as a RAMAC. Maybe some people called it > that *after* the introduction of the 305 and 350. > >> I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available >> even >> into the late 1980's. > > IBM 1302, 87 MB, introduced September 1963 > > IBM 3330, 100 MB removable packs, introduced June 1970, expanded to > 200 MB > pack capacity in 1973 > > IBM 3340, first "Winchester" drive (sealed HDA), used 35 and 70 MB > removable IBM 3348 "Data Modules", March 1973 > > DEC RP04 (manfactured by ISS/Sperry), 120 MB removable pack, mid > 1970s > > Fujitsu Eagle M2351 14-inch hard drive, 380 MB, early 1980s > > Maxtor XT1065 67MB 5.25-inch hard drives, 1983. > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: > 25/05/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 25/05/2005 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 17:27:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:27:50 -0700 Subject: 300mb disc drives Message-ID: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> > I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available even > into the late 1980's. CDC 9766's (300mb also sold as DEC RM05s) came out in 1979 Similar size drives were being made by IBM and Burroughs Sperry, Memorex, etc. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu May 26 17:34:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:34:50 -0400 Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> References: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42964F0A.nailD8V11AA54@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > CDC 9766's in 1979 [...] IBM Burroughs Sperry Memorex Ampex and Fujitsu and Kennedy and Century and ... Tim. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu May 26 18:13:52 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526231352.73915.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Around 1982 or so, an RP-20 showed up at CMU. As I recall, it stored an entire gigabyte on a pair of HDAs in a single cabinet. --Bill From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Thu May 26 15:34:18 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:34:18 -0400 Subject: look for DG nova 4 info ??? or site Message-ID: <429632CA.1050108@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I have a Data General Nova 4 8394k I t has no console wiring. I see the pins on the back plane mark console but don't know much more that. The manual I have, does not really cover this and the Baud Jumpers don't match up with the CPU board I have. The CPU board has a bunch of numbers so here they are. All on the Front edge. D 0782 P A 005 12066 R04 A005 13542 R 05 T 005 12785 R0 ECO N0 9889 - 10855 - 10388 10595 10758 10199 11013 on a different sticker 1788#4151 on The Board Is there any site that covers these. ??? - Thanks, Jerry From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 26 18:33:54 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <20050526231352.73915.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050526231352.73915.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44826.207.145.53.202.1117150434.squirrel@207.145.53.202> William wrote: > Around 1982 or so, an RP-20 showed up at CMU. As I > recall, it stored an entire gigabyte on a pair of > HDAs in a single cabinet. I'm not sure whether IBM made the HDAs, drives, or perhaps the entire drive cabinet, but the RP20 subsystem used drives with an IBM bus/tag interface, attached via a DX20 Massbus-to-IBM-bus/tag interface, which was a fancy microcoded thing. There was also a TX20 formatter for IBM bus/tag tape drives; I think it may have been a DX20 running different microcode. From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Thu May 26 15:39:23 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:39:23 -0400 Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec Message-ID: <429633FB.5000807@worldnet.att.net> I have few different Mag tapes that don't have the Rack Hinges that they hang on. I would guess they are different from model to model ??? The one is a Pertec T8X60A T8000 series pn 103338-01 Any one know of a Source or have a stash. - Jerry From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu May 26 18:51:20 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:51:20 -0700 Subject: Disk Drives In-Reply-To: <44826.207.145.53.202.1117150434.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050526231352.73915.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> <44826.207.145.53.202.1117150434.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <200505261651.20973.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I was a FE on the IBM 7094 in 1963 and 1964. At that time Lockheed (Mountain View) had an IBM 1301 Disk (56 MB, Moving Head Disk, 156K char/sec) and an IBM 2320 Drum (830K char/sec) attached to an IBM 7631 Controller connected to an IBM 7909 Data Channel. For the 1301 take a look at: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_1301.html As you can see, the disks were huge!!! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 18:59:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:59:40 -0700 Subject: look for DG nova 4 info ??? or site Message-ID: <429662EC.1050708@bitsavers.org> > Is there any site that covers these. ??? Bruce Ray (bkr at wildharecomputers.com) http://www.novasareforever.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:27:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:27:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon logic In-Reply-To: <19c.342dfddc.2fc684e5@aol.com> from "Saquinn624@aol.com" at May 25, 5 09:48:21 pm Message-ID: > > Reading would actually be the easy part- drop a phototransistor in (optical) > line with the NE - pricy but doesn't affect the stored data. I believe somebody made a neon matrix ROM -- have an electically rectangular array of neons with some present, others not. By applying suitable voltages to the X and Y wires, a particular location is addressed and the neon there fires (if there is a neon at that location), but none of the others do. There was a photomultiplier aimed at the neons to detect the light flash. I seem to rememebr there was the well-known problem that neons in the dark don't fire reliably, which was got round by firing another neon just before addressing a location (this neon could have a high enough voltage applied to it to make sure it always fired reliably) and then ignoring the extra pulse from the PM tube. Of course this did not use the memory property of the neons themselves -- the data was stored by which neons were fitted. I wish I could remember which machine used this. Maybe something like EDSAC 2? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:32:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:32:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at May 26, 5 11:20:40 am Message-ID: > > Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? > If so then I can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a dealer... Yes, but you really want to use 75 Ohm coax for the video signal. You also don't need to wire all the pins. Accordign to my VR201 schematic, the pins used are : 4,5,6 Ground (and shield of the coax) 7,8 +12V (power for the monitor and keyboard) 12 : Composite video 13 : Ground 14 : Data from keyboard 15 : Data to keyboard Keyboard data is at RS232-ish levels, the power is fused inside the monitor at 2.5A, but the keyboard is fed on the CPU side of this fuse. So make sure you use think enough wire! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:12:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:12:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: neon tube memories In-Reply-To: <0IH200HARLZF6GE9@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 25, 5 08:14:16 pm Message-ID: > >Quite a hack to get a counter, latch and display driver in just 8 > >transistors! > > > Only takes 4bits to count to 10. Though it could be a switch tail > ring counter. Yes, it's a 4 bit counter (either 1242 or 1248 BCD code), so that's 4 flip-flops. That takes 8 transsitors. The hack is to get the latch and the display decoder/driver without using any more transistors. > > >> A write-only neon memory would still make a nice addressable > >> display! > > > >Somewhere I have a neon display which seems to be a dot-matix unit (7 dots > >high by perhaps 100 long) with transfer electrodes like a Dekatron tube. > >You apply 7 'bits' to the right hand column, then toggle the transfer > >electrodes appropriately and all the dots move left one column. Repeat to > >built up the pattern you want in the display. > > > >-tony > > Boroughs Panaplex, I have a 32char version that I power up and it works. No, the Panaplex is just a conventional discharge display with no memory function. The ones I've see are 7 segmet + point + comma, and are used, for example, in the HP9815 calculator. I believe the display with built-in shift register was a Borroughs product, with a name something like 'Selfscan' or 'Autoscan'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:13:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:13:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <0IH200HOYM346FY8@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at May 25, 5 08:16:29 pm Message-ID: > Yes, they are bilateral. There is ssilicon device to mimic the neon > called SBS (silicon bilateral switch) commonly used to drive Triacs. Is this what is also called a Diac (at least in the UK)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:52:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:52:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <1117105803.8163.4.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 26, 5 11:10:03 am Message-ID: > On the parallel port side of things, I suppose it might have toasted > something. No great loss there though. Grr to Cycle for not providing > labels to stick over the back of the case to warn that what's labelled > as a serial port actually isn't on their boards! (I suppose this is one > time where the PC standard of using male sockets for serial ports would > have made things obvious too) The _correct_ standard is to use a male DB25 for a DTE (terminal) and a female one for a DCE (modem). The old way to rememebr that (and I am showing my age now) is that Ma Bell is female, and that's where you rented the modem from. The practical reason was you bought the terminal but rented the modem, so any bent pins were on the bit you owned and were thus not free repairs :-) You can moan at IBM for using a DB25 for the parallel port rather than a 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:56:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:56:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117106391.8163.14.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 26, 5 11:19:51 am Message-ID: > Way ahead of you there - I've dismantled it sufficiently to at least > check it's not something obvious. Like you say though, connecting the > CGA output to a known-good monitor's probably the next step in order to > see whether it's a display fault or a logic problem. The screen Exactly. You don't want to spend time looking for a fault in the wrong place! > appearance makes it look more like it's on the display side of things, > but there's no guarantee at the moment. > > (incidentally there are signs that it tries to boot, it gets annoyed and > beeps if the keyboard isn't plugged in etc., so it looks like most of > the digital side of things is happy at the very least.) There's a bit of circuitry on the output side of the CGA card that can't be checked by the POST, > > > From what I remmeber, it's assembled with Bristol > > Spline screws, with the odd tamperproof Torx in the PSU. The former are > > not easy to get drivers for, I have a set, but they weren't cheap. > > Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to > find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair > of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting > replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 20:06:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 02:06:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: <001e01c56212$15314110$5e3dd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 26, 5 11:43:39 am Message-ID: > As I remember the correct cable also includes an 8 pin keyboard connector. > > Does anyone else remember? I remember it doesn't. The colour monitor cable, for the VR241, has a 4 pin keyboard connector in the junction box , and 3 pigtails ending in BNCs for the monitor. But the VR201 (mono) monitor has the keyboard connector (4 pin, of course) on the back of the monitor, the CPU-monitor cable just has a DA15 at each end. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 26 20:23:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Al> Or magnetic drums, which did NOT have the access time problems of > Al> tape or cards (but, unfortunately weren't an IBM invention) > >> Did the drum come before RAMAC? > > Vintage> Yes. Many years (I believe about six). > > >> An obvious difference is that drums, being head per track devices, > >> always had rather low capacity. > > Vintage> And disks are much more efficient than drums anyway. > > I don't think head per track disks are necessarily any more efficient > than head per track drums. They overlapped somewhat in time, and I > think the capacity was reasonably comparable. I was thinking more in terms of space. A disk is much more efficient in this regard. You can stack N times the number of disks in the same space that a drum takes up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 26 20:32:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: discrete, historic memory, was Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <20050525231504.W1488@localhost> Message-ID: > Slightly changing subject (!), but remaining on discretely > constructed memory, one truly practical memory that was tried and > abandoned about 1952 (one of the Standards computers) was a > switched capacitor memory. It was umm revived some years later and > is now of course universal. I recall the ABC computer was to use this (or did)? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 26 20:29:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <56530.207.145.53.202.1117141318.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > spare40tire wrote: > > IBM did have a drum based machine before the 305 Ramac. > > I believe the model # was 650 and was also known as a 650 Ramac. > > I don't think it was known as a RAMAC. Maybe some people called it > that *after* the introduction of the 305 and 350. Is that model number (650) correct? I'm pretty sure IBM wouldn't assign the same model number to two separate products. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu May 26 20:34:09 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:34:09 -0500 Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <44826.207.145.53.202.1117150434.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050526231352.73915.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> <44826.207.145.53.202.1117150434.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: I used a 70 MB HD back as early as 1976. Cant temember the manuf, but the disks (there were 3 I think) were about 14" in diameter. I still have one of the disks, or I should say set of three, down in the garage and have been thinking about making a clock out of it. Its a beautiful piece of machined brass and aluminum with a magnetic coating on it. On 5/26/05, Eric Smith wrote: > William wrote: > > Around 1982 or so, an RP-20 showed up at CMU. As I > > recall, it stored an entire gigabyte on a pair of > > HDAs in a single cabinet. > > I'm not sure whether IBM made the HDAs, drives, or perhaps the > entire drive cabinet, but the RP20 subsystem used drives with > an IBM bus/tag interface, attached via a DX20 Massbus-to-IBM-bus/tag > interface, which was a fancy microcoded thing. > > There was also a TX20 formatter for IBM bus/tag tape drives; I think > it may have been a DX20 running different microcode. > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 20:48:11 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:48:11 -0700 Subject: 300mb disc drives Message-ID: <42967C5B.8020202@bitsavers.org> I still have one of the disks, or I should say set of three, down in the garage and have been thinking about making a clock out of it. -- What sort of system did it come from? I'd hate to see some obscure operating system wiped out to make a clock. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 26 21:09:39 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:09:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? Message-ID: <20050527020939.67464.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> called SBS (silicon bilateral switch) commonly used to drive >> Triacs. > Is this what is also called a Diac (at least in the UK)? Yes. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu May 26 21:15:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:15:11 -0700 Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505261915.11401.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 26 May 2005 18:29, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 26 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > spare40tire wrote: > > > IBM did have a drum based machine before the 305 Ramac. > > > I believe the model # was 650 and was also known as a 650 Ramac. > > > > I don't think it was known as a RAMAC. Maybe some people called it > > that *after* the introduction of the 305 and 350. The IBM 650 did have a RAMAC option. IIRC, Ampex Corporation had an IBM 650/w RAMAC in 1961 (I visited Ampex at that time and saw it running ;-) It WAS called a 650 RAMAC... See: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/650/650_tr2.html Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cctalk at randy482.com Thu May 26 21:26:08 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:26:08 -0500 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? References: Message-ID: <003c01c56263$74766e10$6f3dd7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:06 PM >> As I remember the correct cable also includes an 8 pin keyboard >> connector. >> >> Does anyone else remember? > > I remember it doesn't. The colour monitor cable, for the VR241, has a 4 > pin keyboard connector in the junction box , and 3 pigtails ending in > BNCs for the monitor. But the VR201 (mono) monitor has the keyboard > connector (4 pin, of course) on the back of the monitor, the CPU-monitor > cable just has a DA15 at each end. > > -tony I think I was thinking of the color cable, I just remembered the dongle. As I remember there was even a schematic being passed around to use a standard composite monitor and split out the keyboard interface. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu May 26 21:35:59 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:35:59 +0800 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/27/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hmmm...is the BCC02 a 15-15 straight cable? > > If so then I can whip one up myself instead of paying 20 bucks to a dealer... > > Yes, but you really want to use 75 Ohm coax for the video signal. You > also don't need to wire all the pins. > > Accordign to my VR201 schematic, the pins used are : > > 4,5,6 Ground (and shield of the coax) > 7,8 +12V (power for the monitor and keyboard) > 12 : Composite video > 13 : Ground > 14 : Data from keyboard > 15 : Data to keyboard > > > Keyboard data is at RS232-ish levels, the power is fused inside the > monitor at 2.5A, but the keyboard is fed on the CPU side of this fuse. So > make sure you use think enough wire! > This looks like I'm going to have to tack at least 3 types of cables together? 1. Regular 3-core (perhaps 26 to 28 gauge?) for the data (14,15) and ground (13) 2. Coax for video (12) and ground (4/5/6) and shield 3. Thicker core for power (7,8) and ground (4/5/6) And probably sheath the entire conflagaration in shrink tubing? /wai-sun From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 21:57:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:57:02 -0700 Subject: Neon Logic Message-ID: <42968C7E.6070309@bitsavers.org> from http://www.computerhistory.org/events/lectures/johnniac_09151998/johnniac_xscript.shtml Well, that bell rang frequently. Finally, we had to convince Harriet -- by the way, this lady worked graveyard shift, midnight to eight in the morning -- to stay over a little extra, and we would meet with her, and find out what was going on. We asked Harriet to please go through, in gory detail, exactly what had happened when the payroll failed. By the way, she couldn?t give me the data, or anybody else, because Harriet Pierson, besides top management, was the only [person] allowed to look at payroll data, so -- it was worse than top secret. It was compartmented like you don?t want to know. Anyway, Harriet stayed over, and came in, and went through this exercise, and for the exercise she had created dummy data, just in case we might look at it. Well, nothing failed, and she couldn?t believe it. So we said, "Tell us exactly what you did." So we backed up, and she went through the whole thing, and I said, "Just go back out into the machine room like you normally would, after you loaded the machine." And she did. The first thing she did is, she walked by the door, is turn the lights off. But the drapes were open, and there was lots of light in the room, and so it didn?t have any effect as far as we could tell. But, when we sat down and thought about all this, we said, "Gee, maybe you?d better simulate the whole situation." So we closed the drapes, and ran the payroll program. And sure enough, after about 15 or 20 cards, we got an echo check error. The damn machine was afraid of the dark. Open the drapes [laughter], turn the lights on, and the machine ran fine! [Laughter] Makes no sense. Until Dick Stahl, one of the technicians on the machine, remembered that the neons were an active part of the circuit, and apparently by running a little test he determined that without any sunlight coming through in the windows, or fluorescent light from the overheads, which provided just enough ionization to keep them active, they deionized to the point where they would no longer conduct. [Laughter] Now, the question was, how do we fix this? There were something like two hundred and some odd -- how many neons were there? Well over 200. And nobody wanted to get in there and unsolder and resolder 200 -- the machine would have been down for a week at that point. Then somebody had a brilliant idea. Down here, where the air ducts for the return air from the air conditioner were, they put a bank of fluorescent lights on each side of the machine. If the filaments were on, they were on, the machine never had to run in the dark again. It never did. [Laughter] It never was afraid of the dark again. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 26 22:01:19 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Neon Logic In-Reply-To: <42968C7E.6070309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Then somebody had a brilliant idea. Down here, where the air ducts for the > return air from the air conditioner were, they put a bank of fluorescent lights > on each side of the machine. If the filaments were on, they were on, the machine > never had to run in the dark again. It never did. [Laughter] It never was afraid > of the dark again. Western Electric did this trick with some of their phone gear (they used quite a lot of gas tubes). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu May 26 22:33:41 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:33:41 -0500 Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <42967C5B.8020202@bitsavers.org> References: <42967C5B.8020202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Oh, its way beyond wiped out. This is just the disk itself the electronics and heads and everything but the disk are all gone. I just looked at it and its 6 platters, not 3. On 5/26/05, Al Kossow wrote: > I still > have one of the disks, or I should say set of three, down in the > garage and have been thinking about making a clock out of it. > > -- > > What sort of system did it come from? > > I'd hate to see some obscure operating system wiped out > to make a clock. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From tomj at wps.com Fri May 27 00:20:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: zip In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050526081628.05221298@mail> References: <4294D32C.7050602@srv.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050526081628.05221298@mail> Message-ID: <20050526221203.C1488@localhost> On Thu, 26 May 2005, John Foust wrote: > Although I agree with KISS principles, I'm not buying the validity of > the quipu as a good analogy in this situation. > [...] There seems to be a cottage industry in > theories about them. Actually, they are a really good example! The point about them is their use was fully embedded in some local culture. The medium, the content, the context, nearly everything is gone. Whatever the use was, we don't need the technology; we have nice nylon rope, thank you. The cultural embedment is what is interesting. If tomorrow morning a quipo rosetta stone were found, I doubt it would make all that much difference. Even if it became known that quipo were harvest/hunt/marriage/etc demo data, there's not enough accompanying contextual data (date? season? year? owner? gender? farmer? king?) to render the content very meaningful. The approximate technological implementation and interface (eg. knots) are important; reading it seems less so. Quipos had meaning (presumably) only within their local culture. So will ZORK and everything else. From tomj at wps.com Fri May 27 00:25:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050526222336.R1488@localhost> On Fri, 27 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> Reading would actually be the easy part- drop a phototransistor in (optical) >> line with the NE - pricy but doesn't affect the stored data. But not practical -- "easy" in a memory array is really code for low parts count/high reliability. But you're right, it would solve the read problem and also make it a dual-port memory! > From tomj at wps.com Fri May 27 00:27:54 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: discrete, historic memory, was Re: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050526222628.V1488@localhost> On Thu, 26 May 2005, William Donzelli wrote: >> switched capacitor memory. It was umm revived some years later and >> is now of course universal. > > I recall the ABC computer was to use this (or did)? Dynamic RAM is switch-capacitor memory. I have no idea what's happened in the last five years but I assume data consists of small amount of electrons stored in an insulator within an address matrix. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri May 27 00:51:19 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:51:19 +0200 Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec References: <429633FB.5000807@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <004301c56280$1ae3cd80$2101a8c0@finans> Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec > I have few different Mag tapes that don't have the Rack Hinges that > they hang on. I would guess they are different from model to model ??? > I'm looking for some too, for my 7 track drive Nico From vern4wright at yahoo.com Fri May 27 01:59:48 2005 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive - 2 Message-ID: <20050527065948.39236.qmail@web60823.mail.yahoo.com> Since I posted my last message regarding Don Maslin's Software Archive on 5-14, I have followed the discussion here without contributing. I mailed a copy of that last message to Winnie Maslin on 5-16 with a pleasant cover letter. I have heard nothing from her. I have however heard through another source that she has asked a lawyer friend of Don's to "do something" - that something is undefined, though it is said that this man (whom I knew slightly some years ago) feels he can locate the software archive without difficulty. I hope that he can and will do so; obviously, I will not be involved. I don't know whether or when this will happen, or that it will. So I'm going to address some of the issues brought up in the discussion, give my take, and retire to my usual indolence. 1. Tom Jennings brought up the packrat v. collector issue - I don't know why, but it did bring about interesting exchanges. I considered writing to explain why collectors are almost always also packrats or accumulators, and how accumulators often become collectors, from my view as a life-long book collector. But I decided that essay would be non-productive. However, here in San Diego we did have a man who accumulated tens of thousands of books and stored them in his room in a hotel; the accumulation did fall on him and if memory serves, kill him. 2. Several suggested that I talk to others in the family - as though I hadn't thought of that. There was only one person available, and he had no influence. Felt he had been told by Winnie to butt out, that she would deal only with me directly. 3. The Computer Museum was suggested. David Weil was one of the first people I talked to about the situation back in September, after I had posted that initial message. The Museum is undergoing the agony of having to move (ah, how well I know that feeling!), as Coleman College (where it is now housed) is going to sell their building. David is looking for a new venue. Anyone with access to big bucks is encouraged to contact him. 4. Barry Watzman stated that Winnie had made no 'agreement' with me. While the agreement that we had (which was memorialized in a letter I wrote her directly after the September posting and never, in letter or in word, disavowed) may not stand the legal scrutiny of the elements of offer, acceptance, consideration, and the rest that go into a contract - it's been a long time since I took Kingsfield's course in Contracts :) - it was an agreement that she did not keep. REGARDLESS - understand, all I wanted to do was - TO CLEAN UP A MESS A FRIEND LEFT - AND SAVE A PRICELESS RESOURCE FOR THOSE OF US WHO CARE FOR OLD COMPUTERS I don't give a hoot for the old computers that Don left - they're probably worth about ten thousand _in toto_, and that might cover the cost of disposing of all the many things (monitors, etc.) which cost big bucks to dispose of in California. 5. Why didn't Don make a backup? For that, you have to understand something about Don. HE HATED WINDOZE - passionately. He tried OS/2 and gave up on it. He watched me install Linux from scratch (back in the early days of Linux, before the modern "stick a disc in and let it do its thing" times), and I think it scarred him for life. (It did me!) He used PC-DOS, not Microsoft (I'll not go into his remarks about that company). So he kept his backups on tape. Somewhere, about 2001 or so, he got a burner; I recall, because I spent an afternoon showing him how to burn discs. He was going to go home and hold his nose and boot Win98 and burn a copy of his archive. I don't know whether he did. At some point one has to stand back and let a friend do what he pleases. Yes, I wanted him to make copies. But twist his arm I would not. When his ISP finally took away shell accounts, and Don HAD to log on through Windoze, we suggested he put a little PuTTY between himself and Win98. He did. 6. Where do we go from here? Well, the informal consensus, judging from the messages until a week ago (I haven't read the last week), was that the archive should be replaced _de novo_. And then the discussion devolved into the deficiencies of Teledisk, what ought to be the format of a new archive, etc. >From something Don said some years ago, Teledisk is now in the public domain. He kept up a desultory correspondence with the author of the *disk programs, who has moved into another field, and then asked me if I would make some additions to Teledisk. I looked at the problem and concluded that what he wanted wasn't plausible in the existing program. I would suggest that the group take the list of OS's that is on gaby's site, and see if it can be duplicated. And THEN DUPLICATE that list, find every OS on that list, and put them on ClassicCmp's website - in WHATEVER FORMAT IS POSSIBLE. As time passes, perhaps a fairly general storage/ transfer format may be found. I don't believe that there ever will be a fully general format, but that's not the issue. Doc Shipley wants a Kaypro boot disk! We don't know whether Don's archive ever will be found, or made available, or .... If we are serious lovers of these machines and want them to do more than sit in our workshops, it behooves us to assume the worst and act accordingly. We can always hope for the best. Vern Wright vern4wright at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tomj at wps.com Fri May 27 02:00:43 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> Rotating magnetic memory is one of the oldest data-storage technologies. Drums solve the flying-head problem; you can bolt the heads in place. Some are contact, but many have a fixed gap. Drums have lower latency, 1 revolution worst-case. Hence they were used as main memory for modest machines and "backing store" (2nd-level) for many 1st-gen machines. Didn't EDSAC have a drum backing store added? There was one in the ACE design. Late 1940's saw magnetic drums in use. I'm too lazy to go out to the lab to look [in books] but certainly, IBM did not invent the disk drive. They may have commercialized it first, but I doubt that even. Maybe they were the first "successful" but that's a stupid measure. BFD. Hand-wave -- it was obvious. Radial or axial -- sigh, this issue comes up all the time. Not axial or radial heads, but the myopia of 'today is the measure of yesterday'. There were plenty of fixed-head radial disks, like flat drums. Today, memory and disk "we all know" what they mean (memory=CPU local, disk=one-or-more-level-removed) , but that arrangement is not obvious and has only ruled for little more than half the time that computers have existed. 1963/earlier: "hundred million bit disk file... each housed in a 2-1/2 ton utility truck" http://wps.com/projects/ARTOC/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 27 02:22:16 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:22:16 -0400 Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> References: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/26/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > I can't remember any hard disks greater then 50MB being available even > > into the late 1980's. > > CDC 9766's (300mb also sold as DEC RM05s) came out in 1979 As provided by DEC, IIRC, CDC 9766s came out to 256MB, for the record. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 27 03:29:53 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> Message-ID: <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Tom wrote: > certainly, IBM did not invent the disk drive. They may have > commercialized it first, but I doubt that even. I'd be very interested to hear of any working magnetic disk drive, commerical or otherwise, predating the IBM RAMAC. > Hand-wave -- it was obvious. In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was obvious 50 years ago. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 03:30:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trying to resurrect old Apple ][ cassette program Message-ID: I'm having trouble trying to get running an old Apple ][ cassette program. I managed to successfully load the program into the Apple's memory, but it won't run. Here are the details: The program is 3-D Docking by Programma International circa 1978. The program's load address is $200 (hex) and it ranges to $2000 (the load command is 200.2000R). It somewhat cleverly is auto-running in that it loads directly into the Apple ][ keyboard buffer (which resides at $200), and at the exact spot where the load command "200.2000R" would normally end in the keyboard buffer, the command "220G" is "inserted" (overlaid really) by the load into the keyboard buffer. So when the ROM is done reading the program, it finds the next command in the keyboard buffer is "220G", so it will jump to the code at $220. This is where it is presumably supposed to initialize some stuff and then presumably run the game. This code first calls a routine in the BASIC ROM and then sets some zero page addresses, and then jumps into the BASIC ROM. However, it crashes with an "OVERFLOW ERROR" at the JSR to $F000 at $220. Here's the "init" code at $220: 0220- JSR $F000 0223- LDA #$AF 0225- STA $4A 0227- LDA #$0C 0229- STA $4B 022B- LDA #$00 022D- STA $4C 022F- LDA #$20 0231- STA $4D 0233- LDA #$9C 0235- STA $CA 0237- LDA #$11 0239- STA $CB 023B- LDA #$8F 023D- STA $CC 023F- LDA #$0D 0241- STA $CD 0243- JSR $FC58 0246- JMP $EFEC I have no idea what this is supposed to do. I've tried skipping the first JSR but that doesn't fix things. The actual code starts at $800. Starting at $800 sets graphics mode and clears hi-res page 1, but that's it. I so far haven't been able to find any other start address. And I so far haven't been able to figure out how it gets from $220 to the actual game code. I've tried this on an enhanced Apple //e as well as a stock Apple ][+ but get the same results. I also tried it in an emulator (AppleWin) under both //e and ][+ emulation and get the same results. If anyone wants to play with this, I put it up for download here: http://www.siconic.com/download/images/3DDOCK.DSK So if you're counting, that's: Cassette -> Apple //e -serial-> PC -network-> PC Server -internet-> Web server -> You! ;) Mount this volume into your emulator and boot from it. Then BLOAD the program THREE-D DOCKING ($200). The binary loads at $6000 (for obvious reasons, if you're an Apple nerd) so you must move it to its expected location: 200<6000.7E00M You can then examine the code at $220 and $800-$1FFF. If anyone figures out how to get this to run, please let me know ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 27 05:16:06 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 06:16:06 -0400 Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec In-Reply-To: <429633FB.5000807@worldnet.att.net> References: <429633FB.5000807@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <4296F366.nail20S1G5XJP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I have few different Mag tapes that don't have the Rack Hinges that > they hang on. I would guess they are different from model to model ??? They part with the black hanger-hinge is generically called a "tape seal" and more specifically a "Wright-line tape seal". There are similar seals with stiffer plastics used in auto-loading (and auto-tape-seal-removing) tape drives. And there are also thick plastic covers (usually with twist handles) that can encapsulate the whole tape, including the reel. Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri May 27 06:11:01 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:11:01 -0400 Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 May 2005 06:16:06 EDT." <4296F366.nail20S1G5XJP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200505271111.j4RBB1a3012307@mwave.heeltoe.com> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> I have few different Mag tapes that don't have the Rack Hinges that >> they hang on. I would guess they are different from model to model ??? > >They part with the black hanger-hinge is generically called a "tape seal" >and more specifically a "Wright-line tape seal". > >There are similar seals with stiffer plastics used in auto-loading >(and auto-tape-seal-removing) tape drives. > >And there are also thick plastic covers (usually with twist handles) >that can encapsulate the whole tape, including the reel. don't forget the plastic "tupperwear" tape cases with soft plastic covers :-) -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 27 06:11:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:11:33 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117192293.9614.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to > > find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair > > of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting > > replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! > > NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very > strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them > with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely > you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often, but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section. That requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout? If the bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display circuitry is long gone. Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc. everywhere even if it's somewhere that can't be seen - but then it doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool for :-) cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Fri May 27 09:07:47 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:07:47 -0400 Subject: 300mb disc drives References: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> <42964F0A.nailD8V11AA54@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <003701c562c5$76d24be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >>> I can't remember any hard disks greater then >>> 50MB being available even into the late 1980's. >> CDC 9766's in 1979 [...] IBM Burroughs Sperry Memorex > Ampex and Fujitsu and Kennedy and Century and ... Yes it's an easy softball to hit out of the park but many of us appreciate the historical data. We were very familiar with the CDC 300 MB type units round about 1983, when they were getting a bit old. I assisted in placing a brand-new DEC ~700MB nonremoveable pack drive at GE San Diego for some important work there and am trying to retrieve data on that one. It was a big one, Maybe a foot above the CDC's, perhaps five feet overall. John A. From allain at panix.com Fri May 27 09:20:13 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:20:13 -0400 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL><17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > In hindsight it looks obvious. > I'm not convinced that it was obvious 50 years ago. And a lot of things were obvious to Leonardo DaVinci too, didn't mean he could make them with the materials he had at hand. A put-up or shut-up would be great here*. John A. * actually on all threads at all times From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 09:33:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:33:02 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <17047.12190.488281.613816@gargle.gargle.HOWL> I found a website (pointer from an Electronic Design article on RAMAC): http://www.magneticdiskheritagecenter.org/ . Not a great site, but it has a bunch of neat information, including PDF files with several articles about the Model 305. One interesting detail from one of those articles: the 305 contains a drum, too. That's the program store and scratchpad. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 09:56:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:56:52 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <17047.12190.488281.613816@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17047.13620.247609.773638@gargle.gargle.HOWL> I looked at some old docs to make up bits of a "technology timeline". Mostly it looks like a pretty smooth evolution from the RAMAC starting point (1200 rpm, 5 MB, 10 kbytes/second transfer rate, 500 ms average seek). But there is one very conspicuous exception, which is (not surprisingly) the first disk drive for the CDC 6600. The 6638 came out around 1964 or 1965 (not sure about the exact year). It spins at 1200 rpm just like RAMAC, but the capacity is 100 MB, average seek is 100 ms, and transfer rate is a whopping 1 MB/s! (By contrast, a drive like the DEC RP03, which came out in 1973 or thereabouts -- pretty much identical to the IBM 2314 -- has a capacity of 40 MB, and a transfer rate of just 260 kB/s. So about 8 years earlier CDC had 4x the transfer rate. Admittedly the 6638 is a much bigger machine, looking more like a RAMAC than like the 2314 disk pack drives, but still, that's impressive. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 27 09:57:26 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 10:57:26 -0400 Subject: 300mb disc drives In-Reply-To: <003701c562c5$76d24be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> <42964F0A.nailD8V11AA54@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <003701c562c5$76d24be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 5/27/05, John Allain wrote: > >>> I can't remember any hard disks greater then > >>> 50MB being available even into the late 1980's. > > >> CDC 9766's in 1979... > > We were very familiar with the CDC 300 MB type units round > about 1983, when they were getting a bit old. ISTR we got our 450 MB RA81 in the middle of 1984. It wasn't really groundbreaking compared to the rest of the industry, but it was pretty big for DEC. On the -10 side, I am pretty sure the RP07 (at 512MB) was contemporaneous, but I can't recall its exact year of release. By the mid-1980s, 400MB+ was "ordinary" if you had the $10K-$20K to pony up for it. OTOH, due to cost, lots of sites made do with older, smaller capacity disks. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 27 10:07:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:07:56 -0400 Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/26/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > This looks like I'm going to have to tack at least 3 types of cables together? > 1. Regular 3-core (perhaps 26 to 28 gauge?) for the data (14,15) and ground (13) > 2. Coax for video (12) and ground (4/5/6) and shield > 3. Thicker core for power (7,8) and ground (4/5/6) > > And probably sheath the entire conflagaration in shrink tubing? You could just use a hunk of 8x22ga cable for the power and data, and a piece of the thin (2mm) coax - then you only have two things to keep together. It doesn't matter if the data wire is heavier than it needs to be, and only having one such cable might be easier to manage. Since heat shrink isn't particularly flexible, something I like to use is the spiral-slit cable wrap. I picked up a reel of it a few years ago and only use a few feet at a time. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 10:10:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:10:31 -0400 Subject: 300mb disc drives References: <42964D66.9080901@bitsavers.org> <42964F0A.nailD8V11AA54@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <003701c562c5$76d24be0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <17047.14439.627094.842003@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 5/27/05, John Allain wrote: >> >>> I can't remember any hard disks greater then >>> 50MB being >> available even into the late 1980's. >> >> >> CDC 9766's in 1979... >> >> We were very familiar with the CDC 300 MB type units round about >> 1983, when they were getting a bit old. Ethan> ISTR we got our 450 MB RA81 in the middle of 1984. It wasn't Ethan> really groundbreaking compared to the rest of the industry, Ethan> but it was pretty big for DEC. On the -10 side, I am pretty Ethan> sure the RP07 (at 512MB) was contemporaneous, but I can't Ethan> recall its exact year of release. I think the RP07 is closer to 1981, at least I see traces of them in source code dated 1981. Then again, the RP07 is a rather big cabinet, while the RA81 is a rack mount unit the same size as an RK05 or RL02. paul From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri May 27 11:20:18 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:20:18 +0200 Subject: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec References: <429633FB.5000807@worldnet.att.net> <4296F366.nail20S1G5XJP@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001201c562d7$f92947d0$2101a8c0@finans> Subject: Re: look ing for Mag Tape Hinges pertec > > I have few different Mag tapes that don't have the Rack Hinges that > > they hang on. I would guess they are different from model to model ??? > > They part with the black hanger-hinge is generically called a "tape seal" > and more specifically a "Wright-line tape seal". > I had the impression that he meant the metal things the drive swivels on, i.e. between the drive itself and the 19" rack. Also, he clearly speaks of a tape_drive_, the Pertec ....something.... If I'm mistaken, could someone then please enlighten me on such a thing is called ? I need two for my Pertec drive Nico From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 11:32:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117192293.9614.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to > > > find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair > > > of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting > > > replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! > > > > NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very > > strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them > > with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely > > you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) > > It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life > difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the > machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that > people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often, > but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section. Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the computer somewhere. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri May 27 11:44:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <200505271644.JAA28914@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > ---snip--- > >I was thinking more in terms of space. A disk is much more efficient in >this regard. You can stack N times the number of disks in the same space >that a drum takes up. > The problem with disk, of course, is the variable BPI. Today, with the electronics so cheap, the CD-ROM is made with a spiral track and it runs at a constant BPI by changing the rotation speed as it reads the disk. Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 27 13:05:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:05:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42976162.5030608@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > 3) Is anyone else archiving usenet or do Google have sole control? There's no "control" involved, just the problem of cost. Google doesn't have a monopoly on archiving usenet; they're just the only ones with infrastructure and cash to do it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 27 13:12:56 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:12:56 -0700 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <42976328.BACE42C7@cs.ubc.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > > Tom wrote: > > Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > > In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was > obvious 50 years ago. I can imagine a couple of engineers in the 1950s hanging out at the diner for lunch and discussing "we need something with capabilities similar to drums but with a lot more storage capacity". One of the engineers gets up from his seat and puts a nickel in the jukebox, and watches the tone-arm move amongst the stack of disc records... From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 27 13:17:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:17:51 -0500 Subject: Inventory for handling scanned documents (was: Better indexing on bitsavers) In-Reply-To: <200505251853.j4PIr1Qu025298@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200505251853.j4PIr1Qu025298@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <4297644F.30908@oldskool.org> J. David Bryan wrote: > using the descreening feature of the (horrible) HP imaging software that This is the Nth time I've seen the scanner software blamed (and rightly so). A long time ago I standardized on Microtek scanners because their software (in Advanced mode) is some of the best scanning software I've ever used. It won't deskew, but it does practically everything else (descreening, multiple output targets from different regions/depths of the same source item, white/gray/black point balance, etc.). The scanners are very reasonable ($130 for a decent one, $300 if you want one with embedded ICE technology). One thing I hadn't seen mentioned so far is the importance of doing as much correction as possible within the scanner software BEFORE it gets to the pc/mac. This is because most scanners are 36-/48-bit internally and can perform much finer adjustments in that colorspace before it gets converted to 24-bit while being sent to the computer. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 13:16:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trying to resurrect old Apple ][ cassette program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm having trouble trying to get running an old Apple ][ cassette program. > I managed to successfully load the program into the Apple's memory, but it > won't run. Liam Busey figured it out for me. The program requires Integer BASIC in ROM, not Applesoft! Thanks, Liam! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 13:33:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple's first scanner (available in Tuscon, Arizona) Message-ID: If anyone is interested in this, please reply to the original sender (see below). Reply-to: gmt at CS.Arizona.EDU ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:04:41 -0700 From: Gregg Townsend Subject: Apple's first scanner Would you be interested in this? It seems a shame to recycle it. 1987 Apple Scanner, model A9M0337, s/n 0030253. This is not the more common OneScanner, but instead its rarer 4-bit predecessor, which was marketed simply as the Apple Scanner. This is a legal-size flatbed scanner, 300 dpi, 4-bit grayscale. It has two SCSI connectors and ADB connector, and has two SCSI cables, a terminator, and a power cord. The scanner is in excellent condition; it was functioning perfectly when disconnected about five years ago. From above, it looks like new. Underneath, three rubber feet are missing, and there is a security plate attached by adhesive. You're welcome to have it if you think it's worth the shipping costs from Tucson. Gregg Townsend gmt at cs.arizona.edu -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 27 13:39:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:39:17 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <0IH500NCCVTG4194@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Remembering RAMAC > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >---snip--- >> >>I was thinking more in terms of space. A disk is much more efficient in >>this regard. You can stack N times the number of disks in the same space >>that a drum takes up. >> > > The problem with disk, of course, is the variable BPI. >Today, with the electronics so cheap, the CD-ROM is made >with a spiral track and it runs at a constant BPI by >changing the rotation speed as it reads the disk. >Dwight > The big advantage and values of drums was high inerta plus parallel heads. Some designs were 16bits wide (maybe there were wider) plus timing tracks. So while small ( I remember the 128kw swapping drum on the KA10s) they were extremely fast. Of course late in the game was the 32kW RS08 disk for the PDP8 systems. Small but very fast word wide storage. Every so often I get the itch to find a small drum and get it working. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 27 13:39:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:39:18 -0500 Subject: BBS documentary In-Reply-To: <200505251859.j4PIxYGR041731@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505251859.j4PIxYGR041731@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42976956.9020100@oldskool.org> Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > A bunch of people already saw it at VCF 7. I couldn't be there last year. > Anyone who saw it care to offer some thoughts? What was presented was a rough cut of one episode only; there are 8 in the DVD set. I was the post-production quality tech, so I've seen the entire thing already in nearly-finished form. It's over 5 hours of material divided up semi logically into episodes (birth of the BBS, death of the BBS, social interaction between user-user, sysop-sysop, sysop-user, the "art" scene (drawing pictures using only ASCII), etc.). I can't give it a proper review, because what *I* want from a BBS documentary has no niche and will never be produced (I want technical details and lots of inside geek info). What Jason produced is for his target audience, which is 18-35 people of today who barely remember (or never knew about) BBSes, for which he delivers an outstanding product. I'm not saying it lacks meat -- there is definitely a lot of meat -- but it is slanted toward people under 50, so it rehashes a lot of info that we already know. The most interesting segments are the ones involving social interaction (how BBSes enabled interaction between people who would normally never connect, etc.). It is easily worth the $50 price and I highly recommend everyone here purchase a copy. In addition to 5 hours of edited material (for which there was 240 source hours of interviews), the entire set has a Creative Commons license, so that alone is worth supporting. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 27 13:49:47 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:49:47 -0500 Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <200505271644.JAA28914@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200505271644.JAA28914@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42976BCB.2010100@Rikers.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The problem with disk, of course, is the variable BPI. > Today, with the electronics so cheap, the CD-ROM is made > with a spiral track and it runs at a constant BPI by > changing the rotation speed as it reads the disk. > Dwight Which, of course, is a problem in itself in that most drives change the spin rate and so seek times are awful. Exercise for the student: implement a constant angular velocity drive to read constant linear velocity media -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 13:59:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:59:11 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <0IH500NCCVTG4194@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17047.28159.356811.568858@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> The big advantage and values of drums was high inerta plus Allison> parallel heads. Some designs were 16bits wide (maybe there Allison> were wider) plus timing tracks. So while small ( I remember Allison> the 128kw swapping drum on the KA10s) they were extremely Allison> fast. Some disks had parallel heads too -- the CDC 6638 is 12 bits parallel. Allison> Of course late in the game was the 32kW RS08 disk for the Allison> PDP8 systems. Small but very fast word wide storage. Not fast at all, because that one is NOT parallel -- the RS08 (and its PDP11 successor RS64, as well as the RF11/RS11) are all serial fixed head drives. The doc says the RS08 takes 32 microseconds per (12 bit) word; the RF11 was slightly faster at 15 microseconds per (16 bit) word. paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri May 27 14:01:37 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <17047.28159.356811.568858@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IH500NCCVTG4194@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <17047.28159.356811.568858@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200505271904.PAA21825@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Some disks had parallel heads too -- the CDC 6638 is 12 bits > parallel. I'd even say that _most_ disks have parallel heads, though they generally throw away that parallelism. (I don't know why; the most plausible reason that comes to mind is a "buh-but that's not how disks work" mindset.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 27 14:08:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:08:46 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <0IH500IFGX6K1MH2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Remembering RAMAC > From: Paul Koning > Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:59:11 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Allison> Of course late in the game was the 32kW RS08 disk for the > Allison> PDP8 systems. Small but very fast word wide storage. > >Not fast at all, because that one is NOT parallel -- the RS08 (and its >PDP11 successor RS64, as well as the RF11/RS11) are all serial fixed >head drives. The doc says the RS08 takes 32 microseconds per (12 bit) >word; the RF11 was slightly faster at 15 microseconds per (16 bit) >word. > > paul Yep, but to a PDP8 that was fairly fast. ;) I did see a parallel head drum hooked to an 8 once, no idea of the details but it was for time sharing system and was very fast. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 27 14:08:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:08:43 +0000 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <42976162.5030608@oldskool.org> References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <42976162.5030608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 13:05 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > 3) Is anyone else archiving usenet or do Google have sole control? > > There's no "control" involved, just the problem of cost. Google doesn't have a > monopoly on archiving usenet; they're just the only ones with infrastructure > and cash to do it. Yep, but as I understand it deja spent a lot of effort collecting together a complete usenet archive, which was then sold to google. So whilst the data's not copyrighted, far as I know google are the only people out there with a (reasonably?) complete usenet archive. Now google seem to be doing everything they can to turn it into just another web forum, which is a little alarming to me as it seems too important a resource for that to happen to it. Hence I'm just curious as to whether anyone else has managed to collect an archive together with the emphasis being on the historical value of it, rather than it apparently just being another way of scoring points against the competition (and having a cruddy web interface bolted on top of it) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 14:51:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS documentary In-Reply-To: <42976956.9020100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > A bunch of people already saw it at VCF 7. I couldn't be there last year. > > Anyone who saw it care to offer some thoughts? > > What was presented was a rough cut of one episode only; there are 8 in > the DVD set. I was the post-production quality tech, so I've seen the > entire thing already in nearly-finished form. It's over 5 hours of > material divided up semi logically into episodes (birth of the BBS, > death of the BBS, social interaction between user-user, sysop-sysop, > sysop-user, the "art" scene (drawing pictures using only ASCII), etc.). Actually, Jason screened all the episodes across both days of the event. Everyone should stop what they're doing and surf on over to Jason's website and buy a copy...NOW! http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 14:53:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Now google seem to be doing everything they can to turn it into just > another web forum, which is a little alarming to me as it seems too > important a resource for that to happen to it. Hence I'm just curious as Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). The web has basically supplanted the usefulness of Usenet, but gone is the quick and simple interface. Long live Usenet! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 27 15:00:06 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "May 27, 5 12:53:33 pm" Message-ID: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). Eh? I'm yakking all the time on comp.sys.cbm. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Make your own advancement opportunity. Blackmail your boss. ------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri May 27 15:04:14 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:04:14 -0500 Subject: MPF-IP items needed Message-ID: <001901c562f7$43845f80$0d406b43@66067007> I got an email from someone looking for scans/copies of the three manuals that come with the MPF-IP does anyone have either of these that I can point this person to? For myself I'm looking for the thermo printer model PRT-MPF-IP to hookup to the computer that I have. Anyone have a source or extra one? Thanks John From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri May 27 15:04:44 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:04:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> References: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5/27/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). > Eh? I'm yakking all the time on comp.sys.cbm. I also still get some stuff on my freeshell.org account. Not as much as I'd like, though. -dhbarr. From tomj at wps.com Fri May 27 15:15:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <20050527131328.V1488@localhost> On Fri, 27 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote: >> certainly, IBM did not invent the disk drive. They may have >> commercialized it first, but I doubt that even. > > I'd be very interested to hear of any working magnetic disk drive, > commerical or otherwise, predating the IBM RAMAC. OK, I'll look! >> Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > > In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was > obvious 50 years ago. Rotating magnetic drum memories were certainly in use by 1948. Surely, other forms of rotation are obvious enough. And it's not like people weren't looking for storage then! I realize there's a difference between an on-paper idea and a working model. I'll see what I can find. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri May 27 15:16:27 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). > > The web has basically supplanted the usefulness of Usenet, but gone is > the quick and simple interface. Ummm, nope! I still subscribe to 10 or 15 newsgroups - antique radio, ham stuff, vintage tube stuff, etc. And I read it using Tin under a Unix shell account. > > Long live Usenet! Ain't quite dead, yet.... Cheers John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 27 15:13:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:13:45 +0000 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117224825.9632.73.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 12:53 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Now google seem to be doing everything they can to turn it into just > > another web forum, which is a little alarming to me as it seems too > > important a resource for that to happen to it. Hence I'm just curious as > > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). Not in my experience - I still find it really useful and a really quick way to get answers for things. Plus of course it means I don't have to be a member of six million different web forums, which is useful :) It's mainly the archive I'm interested in though as it's a useful tool for finding answers to questions that others have asked in the past. It'd seem a shame to lose that because Google are totally inept when it comes to writing a web interface :-( I just get pissed off when useful archives of information get lost or rendered difficult to use in the name of progress, resulting in people having to reinvent the wheel. All seems rather pointless :-( usenet is very much alive and well though, I assure you! cheers Jules From cctalk at randy482.com Fri May 27 15:23:23 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:23:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions References: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001501c562f9$f22050b0$5f92d6d1@randy> From: "Cameron Kaiser" Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:00 PM >> Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found >> it >> very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). > > Eh? I'm yakking all the time on comp.sys.cbm. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- FORTUNE: Make your own advancement opportunity. Blackmail your > boss. ------- I am constantly on several Usenet groups. Usenet is far from dead. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 15:47:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:47:45 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC References: <0IH500NCCVTG4194@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <17047.28159.356811.568858@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505271904.PAA21825@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <17047.34673.835965.979899@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Some disks had parallel heads too -- the CDC 6638 is 12 bits >> parallel. der> I'd even say that _most_ disks have parallel heads, though they der> generally throw away that parallelism. (I don't know why; the der> most plausible reason that comes to mind is a "buh-but that's der> not how disks work" mindset.) Maybe, but probably not. More likely the answer is "it cost a lot (in 1970) to build N read/write channels rather than just one". With serial data, you just have one read/write channel, and someplace very close to the heads you run that through a switch to connect to one of N heads. For parallel operation, you have to duplicate a lot of logic. Today that's just one chip, but not so in 1970... paul From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 15:48:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). > > Eh? I'm yakking all the time on comp.sys.cbm. Sorry, I meant "relatively". I've witnessed a lot of the newsgroups that used to thrive slowly wither away over the years. The local Bay Area newsgroups used to be great places to find or get rid of crap, for example. Now, craigslist is the place to be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 27 15:54:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trying to resurrect old Apple ][ cassette program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47277.207.145.53.202.1117227286.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > If anyone figures out how to get this to run, please let me know ;) Run with Integer BASIC? From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri May 27 15:56:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:56:21 -0400 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <20050527131328.V1488@localhost> Message-ID: <17047.35189.370175.256958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: >>> Hand-wave -- it was obvious. >> In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was >> obvious 50 years ago. Tom> Rotating magnetic drum memories were certainly in use by 1948. Tom> Surely, other forms of rotation are obvious enough. And it's not Tom> like people weren't looking for storage then! Take a look at the technical papers in http://www.magneticdiskheritagecenter.org/MDHC/1956%20PUBLICATIONS/ -- and for that matter other material on that site. It's not well organized but it does have interesting content. Keep in mind that drums were head per track devices. A big part of the innovation here is the moving head actuator. Other aspects are questions like "can you make disks spin close enough to true?", "can you coat disks with iron oxide smoothly enough?" and other questions that were unanswered problems at the time. Remember, doing something the first time often requires genius. Doing something later often requires only basic craftmanship. Today, you and I could build a RAMAC clone in the garage workshop, with care and good workmanship. (Hey, that would be a neat project!) But that doesn't mean the original inventors deserve any less credit for serious innovation. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 27 16:00:40 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <200505271904.PAA21825@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0IH500NCCVTG4194@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <17047.28159.356811.568858@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200505271904.PAA21825@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <47949.207.145.53.202.1117227640.squirrel@207.145.53.202> der Mouse wrote: > I'd even say that _most_ disks have parallel heads, though they > generally throw away that parallelism. (I don't know why; Because at modern track pitches, there is not enough dimensional stability to guarantee that the positioner is on-track on all surfaces simultaneously. In fact, if it's on-track on one surface it can be off by many tracks on another. This is one reason why they no longer have a servo surface, and instead use embedded servo on every data surface. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 27 16:01:50 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <42976162.5030608@oldskool.org> <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <48069.207.145.53.202.1117227710.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jules wrote about Google's Usenet archive: > So whilst the data's not copyrighted, far as I know google are the only > people out there with a (reasonably?) complete usenet archive. Google probably claims a compilation copyright on it, which is much different than claiming a copyright on individual messages. Eric From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri May 27 17:02:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:02:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1116606768.30950.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <42976162.5030608@oldskool.org> <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <429798F5.nailFKO1HATQD@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Hence I'm just curious as to whether anyone else has managed > to collect an archive together with the emphasis being on the > historical value of it Pre-Google, Pre-Deja, we have: 1. Many private/university archives of parts of Usenet. These are most of Google's earliest Usenet archives. And they are acknowledged by Google. 2. In the mid-90's there was some controversy because there were a couple of companies selling CD's with Usenet archives on them. These were not old (at the time) archives, they were mostly content from the early 90's on up. 3. Mailing lists that were gatewayed to/from Usenet. Some of these have pretty solid archives going back to the late 70's. Arguably these are mostly mailing-list items and not Usenet items so they shouldn't count. 4. At one time Altavista had a pretty good archive of Usenet. (Back when Altavista was King of the Search Engines!) Did Deja buy this archive as part of its initial offering, or what? Tim. From als at thangorodrim.de Fri May 27 16:23:31 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (als at thangorodrim.de) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:23:31 +0200 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: References: <1117220923.9614.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050527212331.GA20073@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 12:53:33PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Now google seem to be doing everything they can to turn it into just > > another web forum, which is a little alarming to me as it seems too > > important a resource for that to happen to it. Hence I'm just curious as > > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). Then there must be plenty of nobodies out there. I'm on usenet all the time and I find there are still a lot of people out there reading and writing on usenet. Mostly people who aren't big fans of "web boards" and who prefer a writing culture over one where Ogg grunts and points at funny little pictures ... Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 18:39:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:39:32 -0700 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions Message-ID: <4297AFB4.7040109@bitsavers.org> > Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it > very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). As someone who has maintained the spies.com newsfeed for 10+ years, we've lost two big news feeds in the past year (SGI and Apple). Apple dropped news connectivity at the end of last year because they were no longer willing to pay for the connectivity cost, and there were less than 100 people reading news in the whole company. SGI just disappeared one day, never did hear why. This is a drag... I prefer being able to quickly scan 20+ USENET groups over N+ web URLs. From john at guntersville.net Fri May 27 18:40:32 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:40:32 -0500 Subject: FOR SALE: PDP-11 Message-ID: <4297AFF0.61911481@guntersville.net> I received this from a friend this evening and figured that sombody on the list may be interested. Contact the owner directly for info. FOR SALE: PDP-11 Over the years 1979-1985 this began as a PDP-11/03, evolved to a /23 and then to a /73. It went to sleep in 1986 when I got my 1st PC and has been asleep since. That is an 80Mbyte RM-03 multi-platter disk drive beside it. The OS I used was RSX-11M+ I would not plug this thing in on a dare!! I'm not sure what boards are still in it. The /73 CPU was sold years ago but I think there are still some /23 boards here. (Maybe) I'll sell to high offer by Labor Day evening -- 6:00 PM See this awesome machine at 103 Nolen Circle.... Just outside Monte Sano Park, Huntsville, AL. Or call (256) 533-6337 From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 19:08:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel databooks needed ($$$) Message-ID: New bounty! I need the following databooks: 1. 386SL Microprocessor SuperSet System Design Guide (1990) 2. 386SL Microprocessor SuperSet Programmer's Reference Manual (#240815) 3. 386SL Microprocessor SuperSet Data Sheet (#240814). Would prefer to buy but would also consider a loan arrangment. Please contact me directly if you have these. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From davebarnes at adelphia.net Fri May 27 19:51:16 2005 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:51:16 -0400 Subject: BBS documentary In-Reply-To: <42976956.9020100@oldskool.org> References: <200505251859.j4PIxYGR041731@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42976956.9020100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <3FF94A89-409C-4B33-9D0C-358C04CBBC05@adelphia.net> So where can one order this from? David Barnes davebarnes AT adelphia DOT com OpenVMS , Tru64 , Solaris , Linux , OS X , SGI Irix On May 27, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > >> A bunch of people already saw it at VCF 7. I couldn't be there >> last year. >> Anyone who saw it care to offer some thoughts? >> > > What was presented was a rough cut of one episode only; there are 8 > in the DVD set. I was the post-production quality tech, so I've > seen the entire thing already in nearly-finished form. It's over 5 > hours of material divided up semi logically into episodes (birth of > the BBS, death of the BBS, social interaction between user-user, > sysop-sysop, sysop-user, the "art" scene (drawing pictures using > only ASCII), etc.). > > I can't give it a proper review, because what *I* want from a BBS > documentary has no niche and will never be produced (I want > technical details and lots of inside geek info). What Jason > produced is for his target audience, which is 18-35 people of today > who barely remember (or never knew about) BBSes, for which he > delivers an outstanding product. I'm not saying it lacks meat -- > there is definitely a lot of meat -- but it is slanted toward > people under 50, so it rehashes a lot of info that we already > know. The most interesting segments are the ones involving social > interaction (how BBSes enabled interaction between people who would > normally never connect, etc.). > > It is easily worth the $50 price and I highly recommend everyone > here purchase a copy. In addition to 5 hours of edited material > (for which there was 240 source hours of interviews), the entire > set has a Creative Commons license, so that alone is worth supporting. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http:// > www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http:// > www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http:// > www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 20:33:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BBS documentary In-Reply-To: <3FF94A89-409C-4B33-9D0C-358C04CBBC05@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, David Barnes wrote: > So where can one order this from? http://www.bbsdocumentary.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 19:56:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:56:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: <003c01c56263$74766e10$6f3dd7d1@randy> from "Randy McLaughlin" at May 26, 5 09:26:08 pm Message-ID: > As I remember there was even a schematic being passed around to use a > standard composite monitor and split out the keyboard interface. Well, I certainly posted one a few years back -- for a universal colour/mono/2-monitor cable. Here it is again... A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 20:10:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:10:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117192293.9614.9.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 27, 5 11:11:33 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to > > > find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair > > > of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting > > > replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! > > > > NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very > > strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them > > with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely > > you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) > > It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol Spline drivers) should have a set. > difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the > machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that > people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often, > but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section. That was exactly the reason (and the reason for using tamperproof Torx in the PSU). Customers were only supposed to have normal tools, Failed Servoids hat the Bristol spline tools as well (but couldn't therefore open the PSU case). According to one manual I've got, if an IBM service engineer saw that the tamperproof torx screws on the PSU had been replaced with normal screws, or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g. removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!). > > That requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these > days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display > section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the > innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout? My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. This doesn't mean not repairing a machine, it doesn't mean not using modern components for replacements. But it does IMHO mean not replacing components unnecessarily. In particular, I always replace the minimum number of parts (e.g. a chip and not the complete PCB), and not replacing screws with different types. I have a set of Bristol spline keys, so I don't really worry about this. I also have Torx, Allen hex, System Zero, and so on... I've found just about all of them necessary for classic computer repairs. I would have hoped a museumwould also want to keep machines as original as possible, but then again my views on Bletchley Park are well known... > > If the bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent > position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with > you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display > circuitry is long gone. Well, I don't think a Bristol Spline key is any more special than, say, a Torx driver... > > Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes > to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc. What have you got? > everywhere even if it's somewhere that can't be seen - but then it > doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool > for :-) Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them, and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth spanners and sockets any more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 19:52:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:52:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at May 27, 5 10:35:59 am Message-ID: > > Accordign to my VR201 schematic, the pins used are : > > > > 4,5,6 Ground (and shield of the coax) > > 7,8 +12V (power for the monitor and keyboard) > > 12 : Composite video > > 13 : Ground > > 14 : Data from keyboard > > 15 : Data to keyboard > > > > > > Keyboard data is at RS232-ish levels, the power is fused inside the > > monitor at 2.5A, but the keyboard is fed on the CPU side of this fuse. So > > make sure you use think enough wire! > > > > This looks like I'm going to have to tack at least 3 types of cables together? > 1. Regular 3-core (perhaps 26 to 28 gauge?) for the data (14,15) and ground (13) > 2. Coax for video (12) and ground (4/5/6) and shield > 3. Thicker core for power (7,8) and ground (4/5/6) I would get a reasonably thick 7 or 8 core cable and use it to link the power, ground, and data pins. Get a seprate coax for the video, shield to pin 13. There are some very useful cables available in the UK, sold for making SCART interconnection leads. You can get one that contains 6 75 ohm coaxes (with individual jackets over the sheild), a 4 way overall-screen audio cable, and several separate wires, all with an overall screen and jacket. There are simpler ones (I remember one that's 2 75 ohm coaxes, the 4-core audio, and a couple of wires, for example). I am pretty sure I used something liok that to make my universal Rainbow video cable. > > And probably sheath the entire conflagaration in shrink tubing? Or that spiral-wrap stuff, or a cable tie every 4 inches, or... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 20:31:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:31:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 27, 5 09:32:28 am Message-ID: > Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note > explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the > computer somewhere. A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't think future repairers will have a full toolkit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 20:35:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:35:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <42976BCB.2010100@Rikers.org> from "Tim Riker" at May 27, 5 01:49:47 pm Message-ID: > Exercise for the student: implement a constant angular velocity drive to > read constant linear velocity media COmmodore floppy drives come close (things like the 8050, 1541, etc). They're constant angular velocity (only one motor speed), but they change the data rate (I think 4 or so data rates were used) to pack more sectors onto the outermost tracks. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 27 21:05:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:05:32 -0500 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: References: <1117105803.8163.4.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050527210532.7323c9aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 27 May 2005 01:52:54 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > On the parallel port side of things, I suppose it might have toasted > > something. No great loss there though. Grr to Cycle for not > > providing labels to stick over the back of the case to warn that > > what's labelled as a serial port actually isn't on their boards! (I > > suppose this is one time where the PC standard of using male sockets > > for serial ports would have made things obvious too) > > The _correct_ standard is to use a male DB25 for a DTE (terminal) and > a female one for a DCE (modem). The old way to rememebr that (and I am > > showing my age now) is that Ma Bell is female, and that's where you > rented the modem from. The practical reason was you bought the > terminal but rented the modem, so any bent pins were on the bit you > owned and were thus not free repairs :-) > > You can moan at IBM for using a DB25 for the parallel port rather than > a 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector.... > Yes, but a 36 pin connector never would have fit on the 'olde standard' for the IBM-PC, which was an MDA card with a 9 pin connector for video, and a 25 pin connector for the printer. Many, many first-generation PCs never had any 'I/O' beyond this (except the 37 pin connector on back of the floppy controller for the external third and fourth floppy drives, of course, which nobody ever used). Moving data around was a sneakernet thing. Or you printed it on paper. > -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri May 27 21:37:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:37:55 -0500 Subject: Early IBM Computers, history info Message-ID: <20050527213755.6621c598.chenmel@earthlink.net> Because somebody mentioned RAMAC in a thread, I dug out something my father gave me awhile back, the 25th Anniverary Edition of the 'IBM Journal of Research and Development' a thich issue published in September 1981. It is mostly made up of historical articles. In particular there is a 'survey' article 'The Architecture of IBM's Early Computers' which is a technical comparison of all IBM Computers from 1949 to 1964. It discusses the 701, 702, 650, 1401 series, and RAMAC and Stretch. It's not a long article (13 pages) but is rich in technical descriptions. Is this article already available somewhere online? The copyright notice says 'Copying is permitted without payment of royalty provided that (1) each reproduction is done without alteration and (2) the Journal reference and IBM copyright notice are included on the first page' Should I scan this article? Where should it be made available? (i.e. where should I upload it?) ----- Really, paging through the whole journal (it's very thick), it should ALL be made available somewhere, if it isn't already. There is TONS of fairly rich historical info in it. Main sections include: System Architecture and Development Software Technology Component Development and Manufacturing Technology Magnetic Recording Technology Printing Technology IBM Scientific Contributions There are articles covering the history of the development of Magnetic Tape Storage, the disk drive, programming languages, the typewriter, etc. It's about 500 pages in all. Is anybody interested in carefully scanning the whole thing? I could be persuaded to loan it to somebody active on the list (where 'peer credibility' would guarantee it's return to me) who wants to scan it to share, and who would return it intact. From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 27 21:45:22 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:45:22 -0500 Subject: Early IBM Computers, history info In-Reply-To: <20050527213755.6621c598.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050527213755.6621c598.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4297DB42.4000507@Rikers.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Because somebody mentioned RAMAC in a thread, I dug out something my > father gave me awhile back, the 25th Anniverary Edition of the 'IBM > Journal of Research and Development' a thich issue published in > September 1981. > > It is mostly made up of historical articles. In particular there is a > 'survey' article 'The Architecture of IBM's Early Computers' which is a > technical comparison of all IBM Computers from 1949 to 1964. It > discusses the 701, 702, 650, 1401 series, and RAMAC and Stretch. It's > not a long article (13 pages) but is rich in technical descriptions. > > Is this article already available somewhere online? The copyright > notice says 'Copying is permitted without payment of royalty provided > that (1) each reproduction is done without alteration and (2) the > Journal reference and IBM copyright notice are included on the first > page' > > Should I scan this article? Where should it be made available? (i.e. > where should I upload it?) > > ----- > > Really, paging through the whole journal (it's very thick), it should > ALL be made available somewhere, if it isn't already. There is TONS of > fairly rich historical info in it. > > Main sections include: > > System Architecture and Development > > Software Technology > > Component Development and Manufacturing Technology > > Magnetic Recording Technology > > Printing Technology > > IBM Scientific Contributions > > There are articles covering the history of the development of Magnetic > Tape Storage, the disk drive, programming languages, the typewriter, > etc. > > It's about 500 pages in all. > > Is anybody interested in carefully scanning the whole thing? I could be > persuaded to loan it to somebody active on the list (where 'peer > credibility' would guarantee it's return to me) who wants to scan it to > share, and who would return it intact. > -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at rikers.org Fri May 27 21:50:38 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:50:38 -0500 Subject: Early IBM Computers, history info In-Reply-To: <20050527213755.6621c598.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050527213755.6621c598.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4297DC7E.70402@Rikers.org> Looks like you have volume 25 issue 5 Scott Stevens wrote: > Because somebody mentioned RAMAC in a thread, I dug out something my > father gave me awhile back, the 25th Anniverary Edition of the 'IBM > Journal of Research and Development' a thich issue published in > September 1981. > > It is mostly made up of historical articles. In particular there is a > 'survey' article 'The Architecture of IBM's Early Computers' which is a > technical comparison of all IBM Computers from 1949 to 1964. It > discusses the 701, 702, 650, 1401 series, and RAMAC and Stretch. It's > not a long article (13 pages) but is rich in technical descriptions. > > Is this article already available somewhere online? The copyright > notice says 'Copying is permitted without payment of royalty provided > that (1) each reproduction is done without alteration and (2) the > Journal reference and IBM copyright notice are included on the first > page' > > Should I scan this article? Where should it be made available? (i.e. > where should I upload it?) > > ----- > > Really, paging through the whole journal (it's very thick), it should > ALL be made available somewhere, if it isn't already. There is TONS of > fairly rich historical info in it. > > Main sections include: > > System Architecture and Development > > Software Technology > > Component Development and Manufacturing Technology > > Magnetic Recording Technology > > Printing Technology > > IBM Scientific Contributions > > There are articles covering the history of the development of Magnetic > Tape Storage, the disk drive, programming languages, the typewriter, > etc. > > It's about 500 pages in all. > > Is anybody interested in carefully scanning the whole thing? I could be > persuaded to loan it to somebody active on the list (where 'peer > credibility' would guarantee it's return to me) who wants to scan it to > share, and who would return it intact. > -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 21:54:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DECmate II -> VR201 cable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > As I remember there was even a schematic being passed around to use a > > standard composite monitor and split out the keyboard interface. > > Well, I certainly posted one a few years back -- for a universal > colour/mono/2-monitor cable. Here it is again... > > A universal DEC Rainbow video cable > ----------------------------------- I submitted this to the ClassicCmp knowledge base, which seems to be woefully unutilized. The last article submitted was the last article I submitted on behalf of Tony. Come on, people! It can only be a useful tool if folks contribute! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 21:58:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note > > explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the > > computer somewhere. > > A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that > fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't > think future repairers will have a full toolkit. I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e. wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the machine negatively. Unless you can come up with a good reason why this should not be done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 22:30:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply Message-ID: Dag nerbit. I have an IBM PC Convertible and the manual, but I am lacking the power supply and the manual does not contain specifications (at least I couldn't find any). Does anyone know the specs on the power supply for this? Shanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 27 22:46:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microdata Reality Message-ID: I found the manual for the Microdata machine I acquired a couple months ago. Was it here where I was mentioning it? I forget. At any rate, it's a Microdata Reality. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 22:58:17 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:58:17 -0700 Subject: Microdata Reality Message-ID: <4297EC59.7020909@bitsavers.org> > Was it here where I was mentioning it? It was to me Jay and Jim will be interested, I'm sure. From tponsford at theriver.com Fri May 27 23:10:14 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:10:14 -0700 Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4297EF26.7060300@theriver.com> Yes My convertible has the power supply(AC adapter) The DC output is 15V at 2.7 Amps. The I'm not sure of the size of the power connector but it's the common black tipped barrel variety I also have an unopened IBM battery which I think is for the same machine (It came in the same IBM case) #6820790 bar code on the box. I've never opened the convertible case to see it's the same battery! On the Battery itself it says P/N2684331 The good news if that is indeed a battery for the machine is that its rated at 9.6V at 1.8 Amp/Hr and it appears it connects by a simple 2 wires to the computer. I think the battery may be too small to actually power the laptop (although its big) but rather to keep a power state to the computer. I think it actually stores basic in a static ram. I think if you look through a lot of HP printer adapters, you may find one that close. Cheers Tom Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Dag nerbit. > >I have an IBM PC Convertible and the manual, but I am lacking the power >supply and the manual does not contain specifications (at least I couldn't >find any). Does anyone know the specs on the power supply for this? > >Shanks! > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 00:14:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <4297EF26.7060300@theriver.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > Yes My convertible has the power supply(AC adapter) The DC output is 15V > at 2.7 Amps. The I'm not sure of the size of the power connector but > it's the common black tipped barrel variety Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tponsford at theriver.com Sat May 28 00:49:53 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 22:49:53 -0700 Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42980681.9060902@theriver.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 27 May 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > > > >>Yes My convertible has the power supply(AC adapter) The DC output is 15V >>at 2.7 Amps. The I'm not sure of the size of the power connector but >>it's the common black tipped barrel variety >> >> > >Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) > > > Well looking high and low over the adapter. I could not find ANY markings that would show the tip polarity. it might be on the jack inlet on the computer itself, which I don't have in front of me. For some reason I always though the tip polarity was on the inlet itself or was indicated by the color of the tip (or was that the size indicator?) . It's too late and past my bedtime for me to give cognizant answers :-) Looking at the manual though, the battery pack does power the computer for 6-10 hour normal use. Until you can find an adapter (and the right tip polarity) you can still power it up by making your own battery pack as its connected to the computer with a simple 2pin 2 wire connector. If I can't find the right batteries around the house or shop, I just head down to batteries etc, and they can always whip something up. Heck they even put together a real nice authentic looking TOY battery for my vax with even the plastic coating!! But usually I do it myself.A 9.6 volt @ 1.8 A/hr shouldn't be hard to find. From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 28 01:08:29 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:08:29 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <000d01c5634b$aed8d4b0$8f3cd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 9:58 PM > On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note >> > explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of >> > the >> > computer somewhere. >> >> A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that >> fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't >> think future repairers will have a full toolkit. > > I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept > with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e. > wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the > machine negatively. > > Unless you can come up with a good reason why this should not be done. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] The point is it is easier to keep it original that to restore it. If you tape the screws in it and they get lost there is a problem, if you tape a wrench in it and it gets lost it is still original. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 28 01:10:17 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:10:17 -0500 Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply References: Message-ID: <001401c5634b$eee6b040$8f3cd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 12:14 AM > On Fri, 27 May 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > >> Yes My convertible has the power supply(AC adapter) The DC output is 15V >> at 2.7 Amps. The I'm not sure of the size of the power connector but >> it's the common black tipped barrel variety > > Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] It should only take a second to check for ground, you probably won't even have to open the case. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 01:55:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <42980681.9060902@theriver.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > >Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) > > > Well looking high and low over the adapter. I could not find ANY > markings that would show the tip polarity. it might be on the jack inlet > on the computer itself, which I don't have in front of me. For some > reason I always though the tip polarity was on the inlet itself or was > indicated by the color of the tip (or was that the size indicator?) . Didn't see any markings on the computer itself. > It's too late and past my bedtime for me to give cognizant answers :-) Can you just put a voltmeter to it in the morning and let me know? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 01:57:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <001401c5634b$eee6b040$8f3cd7d1@randy> Message-ID: yOn Sat, 28 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) > > It should only take a second to check for ground, you probably won't even > have to open the case. Assume I'm dumb. How? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 02:03:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 00:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder Message-ID: I tried replacing the dead National Semoconductor MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder chip on this Datanetics keyboard with an MM5740AAC/N thinking the C might just be some minor revision or whatnot and shouldn't make a difference. Well, I'm not sure if there is some greater thing wrong with this computer, but the keys don't map properly: Key => 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 : - Chr -> R F ^ A I U Y M C O S K D'oh! I can't find any data for this chip. Does anyone know if in fact the AAC is different from the AAN? Anyone got data? Anyone got a spare MM5740AAE/N? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 28 02:22:11 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 02:22:11 -0500 Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply References: Message-ID: <000f01c56355$fa9388f0$df3dd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 1:57 AM > yOn Sat, 28 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> > Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) >> >> It should only take a second to check for ground, you probably won't even >> have to open the case. > > Assume I'm dumb. > > How? > > :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Just do a resistance test between a known ground and one connector then the other of the power socket. Zero ohms tels you that you have the (-) connector. Known grounds usually include the nuts of DB type connectors. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 28 03:07:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40247.71.129.198.222.1117267627.squirrel@71.129.198.222> > D'oh! I can't find any data for this chip. Does anyone know if in fact > the AAC is different from the AAN? Anyone got data? Yes, the "AAE" or "AAN" is the ROM mask code. From ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se Sat May 28 05:16:10 2005 From: ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se (Ulf Andersson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:16:10 +0200 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <20050527131328.V1488@localhost> Message-ID: ssiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Jennings > On Fri, 27 May, 2005, Tom Jenning wrote: > > On Fri, 27 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Tom wrote: > >> certainly, IBM did not invent the disk drive. They may have > >> commercialized it first, but I doubt that even. > > > > I'd be very interested to hear of any working magnetic disk drive, > > commerical or otherwise, predating the IBM RAMAC. > > OK, I'll look! > > >> Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > > > > In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was > > obvious 50 years ago. > > Rotating magnetic drum memories were certainly in use by 1948. > Surely, other forms of rotation are obvious enough. And it's not > like people weren't looking for storage then! The earliest reference I have found to a working drum memory is the April 1949 version of the University of Manchester (UK) Mark I. This is said on page 114 in the little book "Early British Computers" by Simon Lavington. Anyway, that is 56 years ago. Can anyone produce any references to earlier use? /Ulf Andersson From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat May 28 08:46:08 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 06:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards Message-ID: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am looking out for a couple of keyboards for project systems I am assembling. I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one), plus an HPIL keyboard for a 9000/300. I think the HP keyboard carries the designation A1099B. If anyone has either of these items they'd be willing to part with please let me know. Regards, Dave david_comley at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 10:29:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder In-Reply-To: <40247.71.129.198.222.1117267627.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > D'oh! I can't find any data for this chip. Does anyone know if in fact > > the AAC is different from the AAN? Anyone got data? > > Yes, the "AAE" or "AAN" is the ROM mask code. Actually. it's AAE (the right one) vs. AAC (the wrong one I have). But anyway, that explains things! So, I'm looking for an MM5740AAE/N... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 28 12:02:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:02:36 -0400 Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: References: <42976BCB.2010100@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 5/27/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Exercise for the student: implement a constant angular velocity drive to > > read constant linear velocity media > > COmmodore floppy drives come close (things like the 8050, 1541, etc). > They're constant angular velocity (only one motor speed), but they change > the data rate (I think 4 or so data rates were used) to pack more sectors > onto the outermost tracks. Yes... 4 bit rates - two bits from a TTL 'divide-by-N' counter chip can be written to by the 650x processor on the drive. The drive firmware looks at the track number and stuffs the two bits out an I/O port before reading/writing. ISTR one of the 4 available bit rates happens to match Apple II data rates, but I don't think anyone ever wrote a program for a 4040 or 1541 to attempt to decode Apple data. Not sure how the Apple detects sync marks, but Commodore drives have an 8-input-NAND attached to a shift register that will go 'true' when 8 bits of ones goes past the read head. The output of that NAND goes to the pin on the 650x that fiddles the overflow bit... one sees tight loops in the firmware where the CPU loops at the same address sampling the overflow bit, and what happens is things (other than IRQs) stop happening until the sync detector triggers, then the code flow resumes. I'm sure one could rig up another method of sync detection, but that one is quite efficient. One footnote about track densities on Commodore drives - the 2040 and 4040/1541 patterns are different, resulting in different numbers of blocks per diskette. Disks formatted on a 2040 have one track with more sectors on it than the same track on a 4040/1541 disk. I presume there were reliability issues with that particular track stuffing and cheap media. The 2040 and 4040 have identical hardware; only the firmware differs. All of my 2040s have been upgraded to 'v2' ROMs (turning it into a 4040 in all but the label), but I think I have one set of the old v1 stuff if I ever have to read an ancient PET floppy. All this code is available on funet, for the curious. It was not as catastrophic as the Apple 13 to 16-sector conversion, but for a brief time, there was some media chaos in the PET world. -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Sat May 28 12:08:15 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:08:15 -0500 Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder References: Message-ID: <000a01c563a7$d9c19d40$c63cd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 10:29 AM > On Sat, 28 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > D'oh! I can't find any data for this chip. Does anyone know if in >> > fact >> > the AAC is different from the AAN? Anyone got data? >> >> Yes, the "AAE" or "AAN" is the ROM mask code. > > Actually. it's AAE (the right one) vs. AAC (the wrong one I have). But > anyway, that explains things! > > So, I'm looking for an MM5740AAE/N... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] You can always wire in a Flash ROM to remap the characters. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 28 12:31:40 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:31:40 -0400 Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4298AAFC.nailN9M11SPV4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the one with the stereo phone plug on the end? That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type keybaord. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 28 12:56:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:56:48 -0400 Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <4298AAFC.nailN9M11SPV4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4298AAFC.nailN9M11SPV4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 5/28/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) > > Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the one with the stereo > phone plug on the end? > > That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type keybaord. Yes... the only real variations were the keycaps (plain, WPS...) The protocol and plug are the same for all VT1xx terminals (and VT278/DECmate I, VT180/Robin, VT103/LSI-11...) -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 28 13:05:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57378.71.129.198.222.1117303501.squirrel@71.129.198.222> David wrote: > I am looking out for a couple of keyboards for project > systems I am assembling. I need a VT102 keyboard (the > original DEC one), plus an HPIL keyboard for a > 9000/300. If you did manage to find an HP-IL keyboard (which is unlikely), it will NOT work on an HP 9000/300 series machine. You need an HP-HIL keyboard. HP-IL and HP-HIL are entirely different interfaces. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 28 13:36:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yes... 4 bit rates - two bits from a TTL 'divide-by-N' counter chip > can be written to by the 650x processor on the drive. The drive > firmware looks at the track number and stuffs the two bits out an I/O > port before reading/writing. ISTR one of the 4 available bit rates > happens to match Apple II data rates, but I don't think anyone ever > wrote a program for a 4040 or 1541 to attempt to decode Apple data. A long, long, long time ago I put a Commodore formatted disk into an Apple drive and ran a nibble editor on it and I could swear I saw valid disk bytes. I didn't really pursue it much further. > Not sure how the Apple detects sync marks, but Commodore drives have > an 8-input-NAND attached to a shift register that will go 'true' when > 8 bits of ones goes past the read head. The output of that NAND goes > to the pin on the 650x that fiddles the overflow bit... one sees tight > loops in the firmware where the CPU loops at the same address sampling > the overflow bit, and what happens is things (other than IRQs) stop > happening until the sync detector triggers, then the code flow > resumes. I'm sure one could rig up another method of sync detection, > but that one is quite efficient. To explain how the Apple does it would take 43 pages :) But suffice it to say, it is extremely clever. > It was not as catastrophic as the Apple 13 to 16-sector conversion, > but for a brief time, there was some media chaos in the PET world. Interestingly enough, I found an Apple disk recently that was published in 1981 in 13-sector format(!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat May 28 13:42:04 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050528184204.61096.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> OK - that would improve my chances of finding one. Of course the chances of finding either one are probably still slim but it never hurts to ask. --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/28/05, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com > wrote: > > > I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) > > > > Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the > one with the stereo > > phone plug on the end? > > > > That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type > keybaord. > > Yes... the only real variations were the keycaps > (plain, WPS...) The > protocol and plug are the same for all VT1xx > terminals (and > VT278/DECmate I, VT180/Robin, VT103/LSI-11...) > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat May 28 13:45:06 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050528184506.58767.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah - thanks for catching that. I didn't know they were different beasts. --- Eric Smith wrote: > You need > an HP-HIL keyboard. HP-IL and HP-HIL are entirely > different > interfaces. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gordon at gjcp.net Sat May 28 16:59:41 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:59:41 +0100 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 01:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>>Oh heck, yes. I went through every alan key and torx bit I had trying to >>>>find something that would fit the former. Ended up with a good ol' pair >>>>of long-nosed pliers, and those bristol spline screws are getting >>>>replaced with something a little more conventional on reassembly! >>> >>>NO!! Those screws are part of the machine and should be kept. I feel very >>>strongly about keeping odd fasteners, etc in machines, to replace them >>>with anything else does change the character of the machine IMHO. Surely >>>you can buy a set of Bristol Spline keys (I think Farnell do them...) >> >>It's the sort of tool that not many people have though. Why make life > > > That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter > Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol > Spline drivers) should have a set. Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? >>difficult for the next person who comes along and has to fix the >>machine? The only reason I can think of for using those screws is that >>people were expected to go inside the case to swap cards every so often, >>but they weren't supposed to be poking around in the display section. > > > That was exactly the reason (and the reason for using tamperproof Torx in > the PSU). Customers were only supposed to have normal tools, Failed > Servoids hat the Bristol spline tools as well (but couldn't therefore > open the PSU case). > > According to one manual I've got, if an IBM service engineer saw that the > tamperproof torx screws on the PSU had been replaced with normal screws, > or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g. > removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer > was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!). > This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside" bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and parts, or thereabouts. >>That requirement's gone now; if someone owns one of these beasts these >>days then they're presumably just as likely to be inside the display >>section to fix stuff as they are digging around in the rest of the >>innards; doesn't it make sense to use the same type of screw throughout? > > > My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. This > doesn't mean not repairing a machine, it doesn't mean not using modern > components for replacements. But it does IMHO mean not replacing > components unnecessarily. In particular, I always replace the minimum > number of parts (e.g. a chip and not the complete PCB), and not replacing > screws with different types. > > I have a set of Bristol spline keys, so I don't really worry about this. > I also have Torx, Allen hex, System Zero, and so on... I've found just > about all of them necessary for classic computer repairs. Yup > I would have hoped a museumwould also want to keep machines as original > as possible, but then again my views on Bletchley Park are well known... Fair point there, you want it to be as original as possible >>If the bristol-type screws were used externally or in a prominent >>position, or exclusively throughout the machine I think I'd agree with >>you, but the requirement to have a special tool to get to the display >>circuitry is long gone. > > > Well, I don't think a Bristol Spline key is any more special than, say, a > Torx driver... Not if you guddle about inside old IBMS, no. >>Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes >>to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc. > > > What have you got? > Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless pipe nuts (just for an example). You can't play about with hydraulic fluid at 4 tons per square inch, especially if it controls your brakes too! >>everywhere even if it's somewhere that can't be seen - but then it >>doesn't use oddball fastenings that not many people have the right tool >>for :-) > > > Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them, > and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth > spanners and sockets any more. Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots of 7mm and 11mm bolts). Gordon. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 28 18:32:56 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 16:32:56 -0700 Subject: HP keyboard Message-ID: <4298FFA8.6050908@bitsavers.org> will this work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1504&item=7518967488 From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat May 28 18:52:21 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:52:21 -0400 Subject: Fluke 9010A revisions/upgrades Message-ID: <42990435.7020802@jcwren.com> I have two 9010As, one with revision 2C, and the other with 3A. I've seen units on eBay with 3C, also. Does anyone have a list of differences between the various versions, and what it takes to upgrade a unit? I've had both my units disassembled, but not at the same time, so I'm unsure if there are any hardware changes between revisions. --jc From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 28 19:05:56 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:05:56 -0700 Subject: Fluke 9010A revisions/upgrades Message-ID: <42990764.5050807@bitsavers.org> Does anyone have a list of differences between the various versions, and what it takes to upgrade a unit? -- you may want to ask on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting there were a bunch of people using/collecting 9010 stuff there. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:23:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:23:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: <20050527210532.7323c9aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 27, 5 09:05:32 pm Message-ID: > Yes, but a 36 pin connector never would have fit on the 'olde standard' > for the IBM-PC, which was an MDA card with a 9 pin connector for video, It's not my fault that IBM made the bracket too small, and actually, the slot in the back panel is just too narrow to take a standard Blue Ribbon connector, which makes GPIB cards a little difficult to do right (the normal thing is to use the IEC625 (IIRC) wiring on a DB25 connector again). > and a 25 pin connector for the printer. Many, many first-generation PCs > never had any 'I/O' beyond this (except the 37 pin connector on back of > the floppy controller for the external third and fourth floppy drives, > of course, which nobody ever used). Moving data around was a sneakernet False!. I used it (and still use it). My XT (on my desk in front of me) has 2 internal 5.25" 360K drives, 2 external 3.5" 720K drives all on the standard controller). Oh, and a second controller with 2 8" drives. > thing. Or you printed it on paper. I would have thought RS232 ports wrre not that uncommon. Most multi-I/O cards included one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:30:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:30:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 27, 5 07:58:30 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note > > > explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the > > > computer somewhere. > > > > A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that > > fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't > > think future repairers will have a full toolkit. > > I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept Are you going to also include a diagram showing which screws were originally Bristol Spline, or do you assume future restorers/historians have the original engineering drawings? Anyway, small parts have tendency to get lost. It's not serious if a Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never part of the original machine. But the screws were. > with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e. > wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the > machine negatively. Next you'll be telling me that it's OK to replace the guts of all classic computers with a PC running an emulator provided you keep the original boards with the machine.... Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully agree with) as to why these screws were used in the first place. That is something that might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst to me now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost There are people who collect the original packaging for classic computers, who won't assmble old Heathkits (:-(, becasue they somehow feel that the way the components were packed is interesting, etc). I don't say I agree with them, but I certainly don't think they're idiots for caring about such things. Surely the internal parts of a machine are as least as important as the packing it came in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:33:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:33:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 27, 5 11:57:12 pm Message-ID: > > It should only take a second to check for ground, you probably won't even > > have to open the case. > > Assume I'm dumb. > > How? OK, first find a connection that you know is logic ground. Things like the ground pins of a parallel port, the ground pin of an RS232 port, the ground pin of a known chip inside the machine, etc. Check for continuity (_very_ low resistance in this case) to either connection of the PSU connector. If one side of that connector is directly connected to the logic ground line, then it's a _very_ good bet it's the -ve side of the power supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:37:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:37:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 28, 5 00:03:03 am Message-ID: > > > I tried replacing the dead National Semoconductor MM5740AAE/N keyboard > encoder chip on this Datanetics keyboard with an MM5740AAC/N thinking the > C might just be some minor revision or whatnot and shouldn't make a > difference. Well, I'm not sure if there is some greater thing wrong with > this computer, but the keys don't map properly: > > Key => 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 : - > Chr -> R F ^ A I U Y M C O S K > > D'oh! I can't find any data for this chip. Does anyone know if in fact > the AAC is different from the AAN? Anyone got data? My guess, based on similar encoder chips in the past, is that there's an intenral mask-programmed ROM that translates between the hardware keycode (i.e. the row and column of the matrix, maybe also the shift and control key status) and the code sent out to the rest of the computer. And that the AAC/AAN/... suffix identifies what the programming of that ROM is. If it sents parallel data to the rest of the machine, you may be able to insert a programmed EPROM between the keyboard encoder and the rest of the machine to re-map the keycodes. But I'd not want to try that without schematics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:40:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at May 28, 5 06:46:08 am Message-ID: > > I am looking out for a couple of keyboards for project > systems I am assembling. I need a VT102 keyboard (the > original DEC one), plus an HPIL keyboard for a > 9000/300. I think the HP keyboard carries the > designation A1099B. You don't need an HPIL (Hewlett Packard Interface Loop) keyboard, fortunately. Such things are _very_ rare, the only one I know of was the one Garry Friedman made and described in 'Control the World with HPIL' as an add-on for the HP71 (I must do something like that some day, typing in long programs on the 71 itself gets tiring...) What you want is an HP-HIL (Hewlett Packard Human Interface Link) Keyboard. These were used on many HP machines, and are relatively common, at least over here. AFAIK all DEC VT1xx terminals (VT100, VT101, VT102, etc) took the same keyboard. That may help you find one of those. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 18:54:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:54:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 28, 5 01:02:36 pm Message-ID: > It was not as catastrophic as the Apple 13 to 16-sector conversion, > but for a brief time, there was some media chaos in the PET world. The worst problem with the CBM PET drives IMHO was that the 8050 could not read (or write) the disks from the older drives (like the 4040), and that there was no easy way to copy certain types of files (I think one of the random access data file types) between drives in different units. Which meant there was no way to copy such a file from a 4040 disk to an 8050 disk. And which, in turn, meant you really needed both types of drive unit conencted to a PET. At least the Apple ][ 16 sector controller could read 13 sector disks with special software. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 19:03:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:03:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 28, 5 10:59:41 pm Message-ID: > > That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter=20 > > Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol=20 > > Spline drivers) should have a set.=20 > > Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). I think of them as : Allen : Triangular wave rapped round a circle Torx : Sine wave rapped round a circle Bristol : Square wave wrapped round a circle Very approximate, of course (and certainly not enough to machine a tool to fit them), but it gives the right idea. > > or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g.=20 > > removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer=20 > > was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!= > ). > >=20 > > This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside"=20 > bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and=20 > parts, or thereabouts. The comment on the PSU applied even if the service call was totally unrelated to PSU problems, If an engineer came to, say, install some RAM chips, he was supposed to check the PSU screws (and some other things) and replace the PSU if necessary. This was, apparently, for safety reasons. IF the PSU had been opened, there was no way to know if any nasty bodges had been done internally... (FWIW, I've opened IBM PSUs, I've repaired them, IMHO, properly and safely, and I've put the tamperproof Torx screws back in again...) > >>Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes > >>to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc. > >=20 > >=20 > > What have you got? > >=20 > > Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I=20 > can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I=20 > always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless=20 Well, my Father's Citroen BX (touch wood...) has hard very few hydraulic problems. I've had to replace just one high pressure pipe (to the back brakes), which was damaged by an idiot garage mechanic when he refitted the rear subframe after an accident repair. > > and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth=20 > > spanners and sockets any more. > > Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro=EBns I work on, all metric (but lot= So do I, but then I have a Myford lathe, which is assembled with an interesting mix of BSW, BA, and metric bolts... > s=20 > of 7mm and 11mm bolts). 11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and which Citroen seem to use to excess... -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 28 19:48:03 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:48:03 -0400 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42991143.nail3OY1IT2G5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > It's not serious if a Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never > part of the original machine. Maybe not for the PC's we're talking about here, but many pieces of classic equipment contain the special tools needed to work on them. For example, many R-390A's have brackets on the back for the Bristol Spline key and screwdriver, Tek scopes with ceramic terminal strips have a little spool of the right kind of silver-bearing solder on a holder inside, etc. For the nuts who insist on 100% authenticity, having the original tools/rolls of solder does matter. There was a case last week of a single spool of normal tin-lead solder selling for hundreds of $ just because of the name on the label! Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat May 28 20:05:56 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:05:56 -0400 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <42991143.nail3OY1IT2G5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <42991143.nail3OY1IT2G5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42991574.nail3UU1DIK70@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > but many pieces of classic equipment contain the special tools > need to work on them. [R-390A and Tek scopes mentioned but not > strictly classiccmp] One example that is strictly classiccmp is the board ejector handles that came with 80's-era Fujitsu tape and disk drives. They screwed onto the back of the drive in case they were ever needed. When you needed them, you took them off, inserted the little prongs in the end of the handle into the matching holes in the PCB's, and easily pull the board out. It's possible with bare hands or pliers too but hardly elegant :-). Tim. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 28 20:45:34 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:45:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: AN1127 application note Message-ID: <20050529014534.39292.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Anyone have a copy of this Motorola app note? It seems my 'fax back' paper copy has faded beyond readability over the years and I can't locate an electronic copy. The full title is .. "High Speed DRAM Design for the 40MHz MC68EC030" Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 28 21:05:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:05:44 -0500 Subject: Microdata Reality References: Message-ID: <00de01c563f2$eca26bb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > I found the manual for the Microdata machine I acquired a couple months > ago. Was it here where I was mentioning it? I forget. > > At any rate, it's a Microdata Reality. It was here on the list :) I'm curious if it's an M1600, M2000, or Microdata Reality Royale. Those are the only three Microdata Reality's I recall. I seem to recall an M6000, but it wasn't a "reality" in the 19" rack sense. Awesome, in any case. Hopefully I'll be starting my M2000 restoration before TOO long. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat May 28 21:09:38 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:09:38 -0500 Subject: Searching on Pick System References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050526181447.02afa390@albert> <003601c5621f$8f7ab8e0$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <00f101c563f3$77de3060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sergio wrote... > My hope would be to obtain one General Automation Zebra, > but I see it complicated :-) I have a GA Zebra 1750, and a 2820 - both awaiting restoration. The 1750 probably works, but the 2820 definitely needs some power supply work. I'm not looking to get rid of either one of them though, sorry :\ Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 00:02:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050528220102.I69460@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > It's not my fault that IBM made the bracket too small, and actually, the > slot in the back panel is just too narrow to take a standard Blue Ribbon > connector, which makes GPIB cards a little difficult to do right (the > normal thing is to use the IEC625 (IIRC) wiring on a DB25 connector again). The slots on the PC (5 slot motherboard) are wider than the slots on the XT (8 slot motherboard) I have an old SCSI card or two that DO use a Blue Ribbon connector! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat May 28 19:08:50 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:08:50 +0100 Subject: WTD: 5.25" DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic Message-ID: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I'm after a 5.25" 80-track (preferably 40/80 switchable) DSDD drive, jumperable for DS0 and 300RPM rotation, suitable for an Acorn Master 128. I'm also after a decent-quality scan of the keystrip that came with the Master 128. A copy of the Master 128 schematic and/or service manuals would also be rather nice :) Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... How much sin can I get away with and still go to heaven? From Tim at rikers.org Sun May 29 01:43:30 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:43:30 -0500 Subject: Available: HP-2020 / DEC TU20 7-track drive Message-ID: <42996492.70600@Rikers.org> Installed January 1970. needs repair. missing pieces. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-hp2020 This drive was salvaged with the HP-2116A system I'm restoring. From what I can tell it was made by Datamec for HP. I think Datamec called it a D-2020. Looks like Datamec also made the TU20 for DEC that was available with the PDP-9. I also see references to a DEC-545 7-track drive. They appear to be the same transport. It sounds like MIT used to have a bunch of these. I read that the heads tend to wear out. The heads on this unit look fine visually. This unit is missing the front cover for the drive. It's also missing the cover over the I/O cards. One of the 7 "dual density write" boards is missing, but could be duplicated from one of the 6 existing boards. There are cables that don't hook up anywhere, so I would guess something else is missing, or that I'm just overlooking something obvious. The drive is located in Dallas. I'm planning to move soon. I don't think I'll ever get around to restoring this drive. I have no 7-track media. =/ It's free to whoever asks for it first. I'd prefer someone picks it up. It would be possible to ship it, but it's HEAVY and fragile. Not a good combination. Looks like these folks have 2 TU20's: http://www.aconit.org/collection/restauration_pdp9/a_restpdp9_2.php Someone give this baby a good home? ;-) This and other stuff I'm clearing out is listed here: http://rikers.org/wiki/FreeHardware -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun May 29 01:53:41 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:53:41 -0500 Subject: TurboROM Kaypro Update Message-ID: <429966F5.1070704@mdrconsult.com> I had asked last week or so about a system disk for a Kaypro II equipped with a WD hard disk controller and Rodime drive, Advent TurboROM v3.0, an Advent .5MB RAM drive, and an Advent floppy personality module. Allison offered to provide a system disk made on a Kaypro 4/84 w/ turborom, but has a time-critical prior project that prevents restoring 5.25" disks to the 4/84 right now. I had also asked on the CP/M newsgroup, and somebody there sent me a set of teledisk images that might help. The Support and Developer SSDD disks for a turborom'ed K-II, which are unfortunately not bootable, and the DSDD Software Support Disk that came with the TurboROM purchased for his own K10. I have a Mitsubishi MF501A-352U DSDD drive (with full-height black face-plate, no less), so I have it temporarily replacing the Kaypro's Tandon TM100-1A. And the K10 Software Support disk finally got me to an A0> prompt! It looks like the turborom is fairly model- and version-agnostic. The hard drive formatter (K10FMT.COM) works, as do TURBOGEN.COM and MOVTURBO.COM, so I can now boot from the hard disk. :) I'm not CP/M-savvy at all, but it looks like I have enough here to make this a functional system. Allison, I appreciate the encouragement and the info. I'd like to stick a pair of 3.5" drives in, so if you do run across the DIP switch settings for the floppy personality module, I'd like to have that. And a system disk would still be interesting when your other work slows down. Randy, Teledisk images will be forthcoming, now that I know my PeeCee reads and writes valid images and disks. And finally, a question - does the Kaypro support a serial console at all? The VDT is OK, but it's tiny. :\ Doc From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 29 01:58:03 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> > I'm after a 5.25" 80-track (preferably 40/80 switchable) DSDD drive, Never heard of that, and I can't seen any way it could possibly work. 5.25" drives either have a wide head gap for 48 TPI (35-track or 40-track), or a narrow head gap for 96 TPI (80-track) or 100 TPI (77 track). You can't "switch" without replacing the heads. What you can do is read 35-track or 40-track diskettes in a 96 TPI drive. The drive doesn't need anything special for that. However, writing to them will not work reliably. If you need to be able to write 40-track and 80-track diskettes, you need two drives. Eric From spedraja at ono.com Sun May 29 02:43:31 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:43:31 +0200 Subject: Searching on Pick System References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050526181447.02afa390@albert><003601c5621f$8f7ab8e0$1502a8c0@ACER> <00f101c563f3$77de3060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <016f01c56422$1c83ea00$1502a8c0@ACER> Hi, Jay. > I have a GA Zebra 1750, and a 2820 - both awaiting restoration. The 1750 > probably works, but the 2820 definitely needs some power supply work. I'm > not looking to get rid of either one of them though, sorry :\ Advice if you change of opinion, please :-) Regards Sergio From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun May 29 03:40:14 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:40:14 +0100 Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <35638f724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel at 71.129.198.222> "Eric Smith" wrote: > Never heard of that, and I can't seen any way it could possibly work. The drives have a double-stepping circuit onboard. Every individual head step becomes a double-step. The idea being that you can read 40t discs in an 80t drive. > If you need to be able to write 40-track and 80-track diskettes, you > need two drives. Looks like I'm looking for a 40-track (48TPI) and an 80-track (96TPI) then. 90% of the time, I only need to read 40t discs, but the ability to write to them would be quite useful. I spotted a Shugart SA455 on Ebay though - are they any good? . (I've checked the service manual on bitsavers, yes I know it's 40 track, so that leaves an 80 track still to find). I've got a Viglen dual-disc 5.25" drive here, but I really don't want to rip it apart for two reasons: A) it's a nice drive B) it's a pain to get it open without breaking stuff (I've already replaced one of the 40/80 switches and resoldered the other - I spent an hour with a metal spatula trying to pop the clips on the case without breaking them or damaging the case) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Who the hell is General Failure? And why is he reading my drive! From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 29 04:57:27 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:57:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic Message-ID: <20050529095727.46082.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> I'm after a 5.25" 80-track (preferably 40/80 switchable) DSDD drive, > Never heard of that, and I can't seen any way it could possibly work. > If you need to be able to write 40-track and 80-track diskettes, you > need two drives. It was common practice to use 96 tpi drives for both 40 and 80 track disks on BBC micro systems. If someone only had a 48 tpi drive and couldn't read the disk written on the 96 tpi drive the usual solution was to format it on the 48 tpi drive and then re-write it on the 96 tpi drive. Cumana dual 40/80 disk units seem to use Mitsubishi M4853 drives. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun May 29 05:13:00 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:13:00 +0100 Subject: BT460 RAMDAC In-Reply-To: <4297DB42.4000507@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <004501c56436$ffb1a150$5b01a8c0@flexpc> I'm trying to help someone who wants to improve the NetBSD driver for the VAXstation SPXgt framebuffer. He needs information about the Bt460 RAMDAC used on these framebuffers. Anyone have a datasheet handy? The LCSPX (another VAXstation framebuffer) uses the Bt459, so info on that too would be appreciated. Some docs used to be available on PartMiner (which used to be FreeTradeZone back when it was free!). So if anyone still has access or snarfed up the docs while they were free, please pipe up! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 29 05:45:32 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:45:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic Message-ID: <20050529104533.21442.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > so that leaves an 80 track still to find Any of these should work .. Micropolis 115V Mitsubishi M4853 Shugart SA465 Tandon TM55-4 Tandon TM100-4 Teac FD-55F Y.E. Data YD580 Cheers, Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 29 09:24:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:24:48 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117376688.12305.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 19:58 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 28 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Just place the originals screws in a pouch (and for Tony, with a note > > > explaining what they're doing in there) and fasten it to the inside of the > > > computer somewhere. > > > > A better idea, surely, is to get the L-shaped Bristol Spline key that > > fits said screws and tape that inside the machine. That is, if you don't > > think future repairers will have a full toolkit. > > I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept > with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e. > wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the > machine negatively. I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at all though (unlike say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just a screw (plus of course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do anything that can't be *very easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal. Particularly on this specific machine, which is common as dirt. Maybe there's a whole class of machines that use these screws. This IBM's the only one I've come across that specifically needs a certain tool (that doesn't get shipped with the machine). cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 29 09:48:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:48:03 -0400 Subject: TurboROM Kaypro Update Message-ID: <0IH9002WBAFWL851@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: TurboROM Kaypro Update > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 01:53:41 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > > Allison offered to provide a system disk made on a Kaypro 4/84 w/ >turborom, but has a time-critical prior project that prevents restoring >5.25" disks to the 4/84 right now. > > I had also asked on the CP/M newsgroup, and somebody there sent me a >set of teledisk images that might help. The Support and Developer SSDD >disks for a turborom'ed K-II, which are unfortunately not bootable, and >the DSDD Software Support Disk that came with the TurboROM purchased for >his own K10. > > I have a Mitsubishi MF501A-352U DSDD drive (with full-height black >face-plate, no less), so I have it temporarily replacing the Kaypro's >Tandon TM100-1A. Those are very nice drives. > And the K10 Software Support disk finally got me to an A0> prompt! >It looks like the turborom is fairly model- and version-agnostic. Yeehaa! turbo rom is fairly complient and also good to have. > The hard drive formatter (K10FMT.COM) works, as do TURBOGEN.COM and >MOVTURBO.COM, so I can now boot from the hard disk. :) > > I'm not CP/M-savvy at all, but it looks like I have enough here to >make this a functional system. > > Allison, I appreciate the encouragement and the info. I'd like to >stick a pair of 3.5" drives in, so if you do run across the DIP switch >settings for the floppy personality module, I'd like to have that. And >a system disk would still be interesting when your other work slows down. I have them here. Each switch pair corosponds to one drive of the possible four. pairs are 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8. The settings are: off/off no drive installed (odd number switch being on, drive exists) off/on no drive installed (even numbered switch selects 48/96tpi) on/off 48tpi drive on/on 96tpi drive For a 3.5" floppy you need to select 96pi and format with the advent formatter (not a dos formatted disk!). Also the floppy must have a drive select header/switch that allows for 4 drive non-twist cable select. It's possible to use newer 3.5" drives but plan on modding the drive select right at the edge connector. Disk notes: Two sided 96tpi 3.5 or 5.25 gets you either 720k or 781k formatter dependant. Also 3.5" drive are being used as 720k (one hole media) so they must be able to function as such. The 48tpi drive get you half that. Oh, the last drive is the one (and only!) to have terminating resistor installed/enabled. My 4/84 has two 3.5" embedded inside (drives D: and E:) as if it were a hard disk and one on the console front (A:) the second drive is a usually 48tpi(teac FD55BV) for compatable ops. Having the drives inside the case seems useless but they have media in them and are fully loaded as a useful 1.4mb library. In the CP/M world that's a considerable amount of space. > And finally, a question - does the Kaypro support a serial console at >all? The VDT is OK, but it's tiny. :\ Yes it can. I believe the IObyte needs to point con: and key: to serial port. This is very bios dependent. Hope this helps. Allison From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun May 29 10:37:12 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:37:12 +0100 Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <35638f724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <004401c56464$493a6c80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > I spotted a Shugart SA455 on Ebay though - are they any good? > . > A google search on the "-3AA" version (the type in the auction), reports it as a 1.2MB (DSHD) version. Jim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun May 29 11:04:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:04:44 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050529110444.09b53f6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:30:35 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully agree with) as > to why these screws were used in the first place. That is something > that might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst > to me now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost > Indeed there isn't. Anybody who stares long enough at the 'No User Servicible Parts Inside' labeling on an IBM XT power supply, then makes the effort to find the right tool to open it up and finds the socketed 3AG fuse inside will know just a little bit more about IBM. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 29 11:14:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <20050529095727.46082.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050529095727.46082.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47672.71.129.198.222.1117383272.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Lee wrote: > If someone only had a 48 tpi drive and > couldn't read the disk written on the 96 tpi drive the usual solution > was to format it on the 48 tpi drive and then re-write it on the 96 > tpi drive. That's exactly what *DOESN'T* work well. The 48 TPI drive writes a nice wide track. The 96 TPI drive can only overwrite a narrow strip down the middle of that wide track. The result is a track that can be read back consistently on the 96 TPI drive, but not on the 48 TPI drive. Because of the wider head gap, the 48 TPI drive will get a mish-mash of the old 48 TPI data (in this case, "empty" sectors from the format process) and the new 96 TPI data. The only way to do this reliably is to take disks that have NEVER been formatted for 48 TPI (even at the factory), or that have been bulk- erased, then write 48-TPI data on the 96-TPI drive. Eric From bqt at Update.UU.SE Sun May 29 11:28:19 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:28:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <200505291450.j4TEnofj095210@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505291450.j4TEnofj095210@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) > > Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the one with the stereo > phone plug on the end? > > That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type keybaord. Not exactly, but enough to be substitutable. The VT100 keyboard have four used controlled LEDs, called L1 to L4. The VT102 keyboard only have one user controllable LED, called L1. The other three LEDs are used by something else, but I cannot exactly remember what right now, and all those keyboards are about 80km from where I am, so I cannot check. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 11:49:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I honestly don't see a difference. As long as the original parts are kept > > Are you going to also include a diagram showing which screws were > originally Bristol Spline, or do you assume future restorers/historians > have the original engineering drawings? If it'll please you then yes, I recommend leaving a Tony Guide. > Anyway, small parts have tendency to get lost. It's not serious if a > Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never part of the original > machine. But the screws were. This is an IBM 5155 we're talking about. There are enough examples of that running out in the wild that I think it's pretty fucking saved. > > with the machine and the replacement screws do not somehow do damage (i.e. > > wrong size, wrong threading, etc.) to the case then it doesn't affect the > > machine negatively. > > Next you'll be telling me that it's OK to replace the guts of all classic > computers with a PC running an emulator provided you keep the original > boards with the machine.... Haha. You're funny, Tony. You do realize it's a fairly large leap to go from swapping screws to RIPPING OUT THE INNARDS OF A COMPUTER AND REPLACING IT WITH A MODERN PC RUNNING AN EMULATOR, might you, perhaps, agree? > Jules has originally proposed a reason (which I fully agree with) as to > why these screws were used in the first place. That is something that > might be of interest to future enthusiasts. Heck, it's of interst to me > now. There is no good reason why that information should be lost I agree. He should also probably include a copy of this thread in the machine so people in the future can be bored with the mundane idiocies that people in the year 2005 argued over. > There are people who collect the original packaging for classic > computers, who won't assmble old Heathkits (:-(, becasue they somehow > feel that the way the components were packed is interesting, etc). I > don't say I agree with them, but I certainly don't think they're idiots > for caring about such things. Surely the internal parts of a machine are > as least as important as the packing it came in. I don't recall calling you an "idiot", Tony. That word came flying out of your fingers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 11:58:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microdata Reality In-Reply-To: <00de01c563f2$eca26bb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2005, Jay West wrote: > I'm curious if it's an M1600, M2000, or Microdata Reality Royale. Those are Wow, the "Reality Royale"! Sounds like it would've been lined in purple velvet with gold plated switch handles and rubies used as diffusion lenses over the front panel lamps :) > the only three Microdata Reality's I recall. I seem to recall an M6000, but > it wasn't a "reality" in the 19" rack sense. Your guess is as good as mine until I can clean out that part of the warehouse so I can get to it again. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 29 12:07:44 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microdata Reality In-Reply-To: References: <00de01c563f2$eca26bb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <60580.71.129.198.222.1117386464.squirrel@71.129.198.222> >> I'm curious if it's an M1600, M2000, or Microdata Reality Royale. Those > Wow, the "Reality Royale"! Sounds like it would've been lined in purple Is it available with cheese? From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 12:08:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117376688.12305.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at all though (unlike > say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just a screw (plus of > course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are > all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for > maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do anything that can't be *very > easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal. I don't see it as that big a deal. Like I said, I would also keep the screws with the machine. > Particularly on this specific machine, which is common as dirt. I concur. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 12:33:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:33:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050529110444.09b53f6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at May 29, 5 11:04:44 am Message-ID: > Indeed there isn't. Anybody who stares long enough at the 'No User > Servicible Parts Inside' labeling on an IBM XT power supply, then makes > the effort to find the right tool to open it up and finds the socketed > 3AG fuse inside will know just a little bit more about IBM. Well, I went further than that. I took the PSU apart, took out the PCBs, and traced out the schematics (along with schematics of the other 'misisng' bits from the Techrefs, the PC/XT/AT supplies, the CGA monitor supply, the EGA monitor, etc). The Portable PSU is clearly a Zenith design, and is very similar to the 130W XT supply. Now, as to that fuse. If it fails, there is a good reason for it. Probably a shorted semiconductor on the mains side of the supply. It is very unlikely that just replacing the fuse will do anything except blow another fuse. And the average user, alas, when he finds a machine that blows fuses will then put in the highest-rated fuse he can find, and probably do a lot more damage. There are good reasons, IMHO, to put SMPSU primary-side fuses away from normal users :-) Of course if the user is me, then that label is total nonsense anyway. I will hapilly replace chopper transsitors, etc... Or is it? When I'm working on the machine, it's broken, and therefore I can't be using it. So I am not a user :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 12:28:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:28:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117376688.12305.8.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 29, 5 02:24:48 pm Message-ID: > I'm still surprised that it affects the machine at all though (unlike Of course it dows. There were good reasons for the original choice of screw at the time the machine was produced. Those reasons are so important now, but they are part of the design of the machine. > say things like cutting holes in cases). It's just a screw (plus of > course it's rare to see a machine where the motherboard slot screws are > all original anyway). If it makes life easier for anyone responsible for Well, how many other non-original screws are in that machine? > maintaining the machine, and it doesn't do anything that can't be *very > easily* put back, then I'm surprised it's seen as a big deal. If it's so easy to put back, then put it back now. Why not just buy the Bristol Spline key. I think you only need one size, and I think Farnell sell the Xcellite 99 blades individually. Just buy the tool and a handle, and there's no problem. If you _really_ want me to, I'll take my 5155 apart, find out which blade you need, and post the Xcellite number, etc. > Particularly on this specific machine, which is common as dirt. Is it? I've only seen one 'in the flesh', that's the one I own. They are not that common. > > Maybe there's a whole class of machines that use these screws. This > IBM's the only one I've come across that specifically needs a certain > tool (that doesn't get shipped with the machine). Eh? How many computers come with even a flat-blade screwdriver? Let alone nutdrivers, Torx drivers, Allen keys, soldering iron, pliers, cutters, etc. All of which you are likely to need to work on at least some machines? IBM were the main computer company to use Bristol Spline screws. They are common in IBM typewriters, for example. And in Friden Flexowriters, as I mentioned the other day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 12:08:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:08:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <42991143.nail3OY1IT2G5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at May 28, 5 08:48:03 pm Message-ID: > > > It's not serious if a Bristol Spline _key_ goes astray, that was never > > part of the original machine. > > Maybe not for the PC's we're talking about here, but many pieces of > classic equipment contain the special tools needed to work on them. I;ve worked on classic monitors (a Barco colour one, and an HP vector display) that have the extneder boards stored in a spare slot of the cardcage. Very useful when you need to repair them.... > For example, many R-390A's have brackets on the back for the Bristol Spline > key and screwdriver, Tek scopes with ceramic terminal strips have a > little spool of the right kind of silver-bearing solder on a holder Only the better onse AFAIK. The 555 and 556 do, I don't think the 545 does.... > inside, etc. For the nuts who insist on 100% authenticity, having the > original tools/rolls of solder does matter. There was a case last week I may not insist on originality, and I will certainly refill the reel of solder inu my Tekky when I use it all up, but I do like the tools, etc to be present. I would want to replace them with similar tools if they were msising. > of a single spool of normal tin-lead solder selling for hundreds of $ > just because of the name on the label! YEs, but presuambly that was to an Audiophool who actually thinks he can hear the difference.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 12:14:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> from "Eric Smith" at May 28, 5 11:58:03 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm after a 5.25" 80-track (preferably 40/80 switchable) DSDD drive, > > Never heard of that, and I can't seen any way it could possibly work. > 5.25" drives either have a wide head gap for 48 TPI (35-track or > 40-track), or a narrow head gap for 96 TPI (80-track) or 100 TPI > (77 track). You can't "switch" without replacing the heads. Such drives were common on BBC micros in the UK. They have the 96 TPI head, but with a hardware double-stepping circuit added to the drive logic. THey will therefore reliably read and write 80 cylinder disks and read 40 cylinder ones. Writing 40 cylinder disks has all the usual problems. The standard Acorn DFS (Disk Filing System) didn't support double-stepping in software, so this was one way to be ablle to use both types of disk in the same drive. I seem to remeber seeing a similar circuit for one of the TRS-80 machines either in 80 micro or Rainbow. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 12:22:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:22:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <20050529095727.46082.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at May 29, 5 10:57:27 am Message-ID: > It was common practice to use 96 tpi drives for both 40 and 80 track > disks on BBC micro systems. If someone only had a 48 tpi drive and > couldn't read the disk written on the 96 tpi drive the usual solution > was to format it on the 48 tpi drive and then re-write it on the 96 > tpi drive. What good does that do? The 40 cylidner drive will write a wide track when formatting, the 80 cylinder drive will re-write the middle of it with data when you write to the disk, the 40 cylinder drive will then get a mix of the data and the formatting pattern. That's the sort of thing that _causes_ the problems You'd be better off bulk-erasing the disk (with an AC-enegized electromagnet, not a disk drive!), formatting it on the 80 cylinder drive, writing it there, and the reading it on the 40 cylinder one. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 12:48:23 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:48:23 -0700 Subject: AN1127 application note Message-ID: <429A0067.10802@bitsavers.org> I did a little digging, and every pointer on the web went to sps-moto.com (now dead) and freescale appears to have deleted that app note. Hopefully someone wgot the whole appnote tree (unfortunately I didn't..) From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun May 29 12:50:20 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:50:20 -0700 Subject: TurboROM Kaypro Update In-Reply-To: <0IH9002WBAFWL851@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IH9002WBAFWL851@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <429A00DC.5060801@deltasoft.com> > > Yes it can. I believe the IObyte needs to point con: and key: to > serial port. This is very bios dependent. > You might also want to take a look at using BYE for this purpose. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 12:47:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microdata Reality In-Reply-To: <60580.71.129.198.222.1117386464.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I'm curious if it's an M1600, M2000, or Microdata Reality Royale. Those > > Wow, the "Reality Royale"! Sounds like it would've been lined in purple > > Is it available with cheese? That's an upgrade. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 12:49:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Particularly on this specific machine, which is common as dirt. > > Is it? I've only seen one 'in the flesh', that's the one I own. They are > not that common. I have at least 6, perhaps 7. And I now pass them up when I see them. They are "not that common" in the sense that no computer that is 20 years old is "not that common". But they are out there...in droves. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 29 16:29:59 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:29:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic Message-ID: <20050529212959.24680.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> was to format it on the 48 tpi drive and then re-write it on the >> 96 tpi drive. > What good does that do? Against reason it used to work. > You'd be better off bulk-erasing the disk (with an AC-enegized > electromagnet, not a disk drive!), formatting it on the 80 cylinder > drive, writing it there, and the reading it on the 40 cylinder one. That wasn't an option, the degausser available couldn't reliably erase a disk. The eventual solution was to replace the few remaining 40 track drives. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 17:01:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <004401c56464$493a6c80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <35638f724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <004401c56464$493a6c80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050529145755.C81096@shell.lmi.net> > > I spotted a Shugart SA455 on Ebay though - are they any good? > > . On Sun, 29 May 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > A google search on the "-3AA" version (the type in the auction), reports it > as a 1.2MB (DSHD) version. Regardless of the REVISION level, a SA455 is a "360K" DS 48tpi drive; a 465 is a "720K" DS 5.25" 96TPI drive; a 475 is a "1.2M" drive. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 17:14:44 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:14:44 -0700 Subject: system 36 on eBay Message-ID: <429A3ED4.1070106@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64029&item=5777993013 looks pretty complete shipping is excessive, though. From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 29 17:19:26 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:19:26 -0500 Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222><35638f724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><004401c56464$493a6c80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050529145755.C81096@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001301c5649c$7d429b00$2b3dd7d1@randy> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 5:01 PM >> > I spotted a Shugart SA455 on Ebay though - are they any good? >> > . > > On Sun, 29 May 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: >> A google search on the "-3AA" version (the type in the auction), reports >> it >> as a 1.2MB (DSHD) version. > > Regardless of the REVISION level, > a SA455 is a "360K" DS 48tpi drive; > a 465 is a "720K" DS 5.25" 96TPI drive; > a 475 is a "1.2M" drive. Please note many 1.2MB can be jumpered to be "720K" drives and they are very common. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 17:22:14 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050529150704.R81096@shell.lmi.net> So,... I should take out the wing nuts (and wing bolts) from my machines, and put back all of the torx fasteners, etc. ? What should I do about the holes that I cut for additional drives, ventilation mods, chassis mount Blue Ribbon connections, etc? BTW, I know much less about hardware than Tony knows about software, but it doesn't take much knowledge of electronics to repair the physical break of the power switch that was common in the second and third round of 63.5? W supplies in the 5150. "No user serviceable parts", indeed. In the space of 10 years, I repaired a dozen of them in a student access lab of 40 machines. The 130? W supplies had a subtly better switch whose contacts stayed in place. BTW2, I do NOT damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc. The PC came out in August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits. (can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!) It really isn't hard to get or make the right tool, if you WANT to keep it original. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun May 29 17:23:51 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:23:51 -0500 Subject: AN1127 application note References: <429A0067.10802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <005a01c5649d$1b42c190$2b3dd7d1@randy> From: "Al Kossow" Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:48 PM >I did a little digging, and every pointer on the web went to sps-moto.com >(now > dead) and freescale appears to have deleted that app note. > > Hopefully someone got the whole appnote tree (unfortunately I didn't..) 20/20 hindsight is so good. There are a few old Intel AN's I'd like to get :-( If anyone knows of existing trees for classic AN's please post the URL(s). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 17:32:07 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: 5.25' DSDD drive & Acorn Master128 keystrip scan/schematic In-Reply-To: <001301c5649c$7d429b00$2b3dd7d1@randy> References: <0f9160724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><53116.71.129.198.222.1117349883.squirrel@71.129.198.222><35638f724d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><004401c56464$493a6c80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050529145755.C81096@shell.lmi.net> <001301c5649c$7d429b00$2b3dd7d1@randy> Message-ID: <20050529152823.T81096@shell.lmi.net> > >> > I spotted a Shugart SA455 on Ebay though - are they any good? > >> > . > > On Sun, 29 May 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > >> A google search on the "-3AA" version (the type in the auction), reports > >> it as a 1.2MB (DSHD) version. > From: "Fred Cisin" > > Regardless of the REVISION level, > > a SA455 is a "360K" DS 48tpi drive; > > a 465 is a "720K" DS 5.25" 96TPI drive; > > a 475 is a "1.2M" drive. On Sun, 29 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Please note many 1.2MB can be jumpered to be "720K" drives and they are very > common. quite true, the differences between 720K and 1.2M do not include track width. But NO kinda jumpering will turn a SA455-3AA into a "720K" OR "1.2" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 18:00:35 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> > Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them, > and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth > spanners and sockets any more. > Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots > of 7mm and 11mm bolts). "reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification. Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered "reasonably complete" spanners and sockets to consist of: [RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best) thin (sheet metal) open end wrenches (lock nuts, bearing adjustment, etc) short box-end wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) long box-end wrenches (mostly just 6 point) Flex-socket wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) "obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets) 1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets 1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets 3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets 3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets 3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON) 3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point 3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets 3/8 inch 8 point sockets 1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep sockets 1/2 inch impact sockets 1/2 inch 8 point sockets 3/4 inch impact sockets 1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm) Vise-grips 5WR -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 17:49:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:49:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050529150704.R81096@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 29, 5 03:22:14 pm Message-ID: > > So,... > > I should take out the wing nuts (and wing bolts) from my machines, and put > back all of the torx fasteners, etc. ? Well, I probably would... But then I am rarely near a computer without a good toolkit... > > What should I do about the holes that I cut for additional drives, > ventilation mods, chassis mount Blue Ribbon connections, etc? I did say something like 'make no unnecessary modifications'. I've modified enough machines over the years that if I claimed modifications, and hackery vwere a Bad Thing, it would clearly be a lie. And yes, I have modified classic computers, even when they were already classic. But those modifications were useful in that they improved the machine. Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a useful or nexessary modification. > > > BTW, I know much less about hardware than Tony knows about software, but > it doesn't take much knowledge of electronics to repair the physical break > of the power switch that was common in the second and third round of 63.5? Ture.... (But if I had a pound for every time a PSU fault was described to me as a 'broken on/off switch' I wouldn't be here :-). I am quite sure these switches did break, but to many users any time a machine won't power up, it must be the switch...) > BTW2, I do NOT damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc. The PC came out in > August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits. > (can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!) Not if they're decent Torx bits, anyway :-). Nowadays the tamperproof Torx bits are quite easy to find, thankfully. > It really isn't hard to get or make the right tool, if you WANT to keep it > original. I mentioned this thread to a friend of mine (who is an excellent hacker and his comment was something like "He's working on IBM machines without a set of Bristol Spline keys? Ouch!" -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 29 18:17:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: system 36 on eBay In-Reply-To: <429A3ED4.1070106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64029&item=5777993013 > > looks pretty complete > > shipping is excessive, though. I'll say. But if someone gets it at the minimum bid then they have themselves a fine system for not a bad price. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 18:35:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:35:18 -0700 Subject: cpu/disc/memory vs time Message-ID: <429A51B6.9010602@bitsavers.org> Three very cool pages I just stumbled upon: http://www.jcmit.com/cpu-perf-chart.htm http://www.jcmit.com/memoryprice.htm http://www.jcmit.com/diskprice.htm From tomj at wps.com Sun May 29 18:47:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL><17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050529151718.K1488@localhost> On Fri, 27 May 2005, John Allain wrote: > A put-up or shut-up would be great here*. > > John A. > * actually on all threads at all times What? And take all the fun out of it?! Seriously -- past some trivial level of discussion this is absolutely called for. I don't trust computer-history books, with a few exceptions (eg. Randall, but he doesn't follow specific technologies). They're all filled with parrot talk. There are some very early references here, I do not have the refered-to docs unless stated, some really seem worth following up on. I won't summarize my summary. I'm in my lab and will see what I can find. NOTABLE: Booth's 1947+ paper magnetic disk Harvard Computation Laboratory, various Cohen, drum, 1950 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Digital computer components and circuits", RK Richards, 1957. In 'storage on a magnetic surface' p348, ref to IBM disk project (no name/model). Flying heads (bernoulli). Mentions a multi-disk system where non-referenced disks are stopped, to save energy of pumping all that air. Early EnergyStar anyone? Bibio data: DRUMS: "Magnetic drum digital storage system", AD Booth 1949 [see Booth below]. "Design, construction and performance of a large-scale general-purpose digital computer" BW Pollard, Proccedings AIEE-IRE Comp. Conf., Dec 1951,m pp62-70 published Feb 1952). "Desription of a magnetic drum calculator", Annals of Harvard Computation Lab., Vol 25, 318 pages, 1952. "Engineering description of the ElectroData digital computer", JC Alrich, IRE Transactions on Elec. Comp. Vol EC-4 pp 1-10, March 1955. "The magnetic storage drum on the Ace Pilot Model". DO Clayton et al, 1956. DISKS refs WJCC 1956 Noyes/Dickensen IBM [below] IBM 650 drum (AIEE-IRE-ACM conf, 1954). "Air floating, a new principle in magnetic recrding of information", GE Hagen, 'computers and automation', vol 2 #8 pp23-25, Nov 1953). "The notched-disc memory", J Rabinow, 'electrical engineering', vol 71, pp 745-749, Aug 1952. "magnetic memory device for business amchines", SJ Begun, 'electrical engineering', vol 74, pp 466-469, June 1955. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >From HIGH SPEED COMPUTING DEVICES, ERA Inc, 1950: the TRANSFER MEDIUMS chapter discusses drums at length. Table 14-1 p338 and text coyly discusses a half dozen drum designs, but does not mention models/products; and the footnoted reference is to "STORAGE OF NUMBERS ON MAGNETIC TAPE" Coombs 1947 pamphlet, so I assume this is vaporware. The whole book actually reeks of vapor. A couple of tantalizing references p381: 33. Moore, BL, "magnetic and phosphor coated disks" in Proceedings of a symposium on large-scale digital computing machinery" Harvard Univ. Press, 1948. 37. SHepard, CB, "Transfer between internal and external memory", Annals of the computation lab. of Harvard Univ. Vol XVI pp267-273, 1948. The other 30+ refs apepar to be magnetic tape. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Proc. Western Joint Comp. Conf. 1956 "Magnetic recording head design", AS Hoagland (of UC Berkeley), head design for the IBM 305 magnetic disk file. Ref to authors 1954 AIEE Transactions paper "magnetic drum recording of digital data". "Engineering design of a magnetic-disk random-access memory", T. Noyes & WE Dickenson, IBM. 50-platter, 5,000,000 character storage. 24" platters. BIG F'ING MONSTER. 1.5 HP motor, 1200 rpm. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Preparation of programs for an electronic digital computer" Wilkes 1957 edition. I don't know if this is in the 51 edition, but EDSAC had a drum added sometime. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Automatic digital calculators, booth and booth, 2nd ed 1956 I don't have AD Booths earlier book. This one mentions his ARC calculator, drum and "disk" memory. Built 1947; completion date not given (see other book). The later APE(x)C machines (annoying variable name) are drum and electromechanical (pin) memory. ARC originally used Fe oxide coated paper, spun vertically (horizontal axle) to keep paper flat; the fixed "C" shaped head passed flux through the paper one side to the other (clearly, only on the very outer edge). Contact heads. Apparently this actually worked. page 133. Capacity must suck. Clearly this is the first magnetic "disk" type storage, though I won't call it a disk in modern terms, but it points out the utter futility of trying to name "firsts". refs "Magnetic drum storage for digital information processing systems", 'Mathematical Tables and other AIds to Computation' (journal), 1950. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Electronic Digital Computers, Franz ALt, 1958 Too new to be revealing, but does mention Rabinow's notched disk system, which is a toroidal "jukebox" for mag disk. Early drum ref: "Magnetic drum storage for digital information processing systems", 'Mathematical Tables and other AIds to Computation' (journal), 1950. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COMPUTER HANDBOOK, Huskey, 1962 Though it's very late, Huskey always covers previous art/history each chapter, so he's always a great author to follow. AS Hoagland writes about early mag storage; wire (1898), first mag data storage (1947), and drums. Talks of disks as "relatively new" (1962). RAMAC. Air bearing with explicit compressor (non-bernoulli). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun May 29 18:38:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505292351.TAA15464@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But to replace a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the > right tool is not a useful or nexessary modification. It is if the bother involved in getting "the right tool" is high enough. :-) I, for example, would have no idea where to go to obtain a set of the Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Sun May 29 18:55:50 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL><17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <007d01c562c7$33681400$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050529164735.R1488@localhost> OK, Eric was right; while an hour's perusal of a small selection of books is hardly research, it seems that there are few-enough root documents to backup Eric's claim that IBM developed the first disk drive as we know it today. I stand corrected. My LGP-21 (1963) has a rotating disk but fixed crashed heads. It seems very likely that it wasn't the first of it's type. It is easy enough to imagine one existing before RAMAC, though I would not argue that it's a "disk" in the RAMAC (or modern) sense. It's simply a recirculating multi-kilo-bit shift register main memory coincidentally based upon similar technology. Booth's paper magnetic disk is pretty interesting though. There's a web page that talks about "Booth's floppy disk" -- this sort of inane damage is what ruins things. It wasn't a goddamned floppy goddamned disk. Floppy goddamned disks are a modern portable removable media, Booth's appears to be simply the use of paper as a good substrate to apply a magnetic material. THere's no indication the paper disk could be removed from the device. It probably had only one "track". Besides, floppies aren't made of paper. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 18:56:52 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:56:52 -0700 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC Message-ID: <429A56C4.1090307@bitsavers.org> > From HIGH SPEED COMPUTING DEVICES, ERA Inc, 1950: > The whole book actually reeks of vapor. Um... ERA were the people who built the "Project 13" machines during WW II. The 1101 used a drum, and built the follow on 11xx machines in the Twin Cites. ref "A Few Good Men From Univac" "From Dits To Bits", etc. WISC was designed around he same time, and used a drum. From tomj at wps.com Sun May 29 19:02:34 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050529165609.Y1488@localhost> On Sat, 28 May 2005, Ulf Andersson wrote: > The earliest reference I have found to a working drum memory is the > April 1949 version of the University of Manchester (UK) Mark I. This > is said on page 114 in the little book "Early British Computers" by > Simon Lavington. Anyway, that is 56 years ago. The problem with histories is that they oversimplify. In this instance it's not too bad; RAMAC is a disk drive by modern definitions, so there's a reasonably bright line between it and similar things. But things like Booth's paper memory defies modern categorization; though rotating, magnetic, disk-like, it was a main-memory for a non-stored-program calculator. Since in 1947 there were no computers-as-we-know-them-today -- meaning an electronic machine with an "operating system" and a a data abstraction known as a "file" -- this disk/not-a-disk doesn't fit into "timelines" and Famous Person/Famous Product histories, so they get dropped. This problem exists in other areas of history and historiography, but in most areas of human culture -- clothing, food, language, housing, warfare, artwork, etc -- massive paradigm shifts don't occur every 15 minutes. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 19:03:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:03:18 -0700 Subject: "High Speed Computing Devices" Message-ID: <429A5846.6040202@bitsavers.org> here is a description of the origins of the book: http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/2015.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 19:12:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:12:40 -0700 Subject: "Task 13" Message-ID: <429A5A78.4000503@bitsavers.org> So much for my memory.. Um... ERA were the people who built the "Project 13" machines during WW II. The 1101 used a drum, and built the follow on 11xx machines in the Twin Cites. ref "A Few Good Men From Univac" "From Dits To Bits", etc. should be (from the URL about the ERA Book): In the fall of 1946, ERA received its first major contract from the Office of Naval Research to compile a report on ?High Speed Computing Devices?. This report, which became the definitive study of the infant state of computing, was later published in book form by McGraw Hill. During this project, ERA personnel was given access to classified government reports and worked with computer pioneers John Mauchly and J. Presper Eckert, inventors of the ENIAC, and John von Neumann, of Princeton University's Institute for Advanced Study. ERA was dependent on government funded cost-plus--fixed-fee contracts. In August 1947, it began work for the Navy on Task 13 - a project to design a general all-purpose stored-program computer. During this project ERA developed the first magnetic storage drum; the technology upon which the next two generations of computers was based. In October, 1950, ERA completed work on the Atlas computer - America's first electronic stored-program computer. The Atlas with its 2,700 vacuum tubes was capable of running twenty-four hours a day with only 10% of the time allotted for maintenance. -- The commercial verison of "Atlas" is the 1101 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 19:20:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:20:32 -0700 Subject: Bristol spline sets Message-ID: <429A5C50.6000709@bitsavers.org> http://www.mgs4u.com/Bristol-spline-L-keys.htm is the first of hundreds of Google hits. From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun May 29 19:28:28 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:28:28 -0400 Subject: Tools In-Reply-To: <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <429A5E2C.8080607@woh.rr.com> That's what I'd consider a reasonably complete set of tools too. Now would someone go tell that to the Ford engineers.. The Ford modular 4.6L v8 DOHC as used in the 1995 Lincoln Continental (FWD btw). Most horrifically designed $%^$% I've _EVER_ had to work on. (Definitely not "classic") You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring, to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+ specialized tools, and you get to remove the engine+transmission through the bottom. I have to wonder if the engineers who design these cars actually have ever had to work on one.. David Fred Cisin wrote: >>Well, British classic cars tend to have Whitworth bolts all over them, >>and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth >>spanners and sockets any more. >>Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro?ns I work on, all metric (but lots >>of 7mm and 11mm bolts). >> >> > >"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification. >Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered "reasonably >complete" spanners and sockets to consist of: > >[RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best) >thin (sheet metal) open end wrenches (lock nuts, bearing adjustment, etc) >short box-end wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) >long box-end wrenches (mostly just 6 point) >Flex-socket wrenches 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) >Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) >"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets) >1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets >1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets >3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets >3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets >3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON) >3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point >3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets >3/8 inch 8 point sockets >1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep sockets >1/2 inch impact sockets >1/2 inch 8 point sockets >3/4 inch impact sockets >1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm) >Vise-grips 5WR > > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 29 19:40:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:40:46 -0700 Subject: Rack 'L' bracket kits on eBay Message-ID: <429A610E.4040605@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5776257783 These are REALLY handy if you have J random piece of gear to put in a rack (like a DEC H960 with front and back rails) and it wasn't built for rack slides. The price is for two pair. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 29 21:24:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:24:10 -0400 Subject: Fluke 9010A revisions/upgrades In-Reply-To: <42990764.5050807@bitsavers.org> References: <42990764.5050807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 5/28/05, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have a list of > differences between the various versions, and what it takes to upgrade a > unit? > > -- > > you may want to ask on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting > > there were a bunch of people using/collecting 9010 stuff there. Thanks for the tip... I have a Fluke 9010 and two pods (68000 and 6502). -ethan From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun May 29 22:42:14 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:42:14 -0700 Subject: IBM PC original power supply problem (long) Message-ID: <000501c564c9$a0b02670$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Here is a story about the original IBM PC (5150) power supply. There was a defect that showed up a few days before it was to go on sale. The design team flew around the country adding fish paper insulation to the 1700 machines that had shipped to stores. This is from Blue Magic by James Chposky and Ted Leonsis.(1988) ISBN 0-8160-13910-8 The book has a few technical errors, they mix-up 8080 and 8086 chips number in one chapter. The refer to the modem guy as Dennis Glayes (Hayes). In this chapter they refer to a 65 volt power supply (should be watt). The flow of the book tells how the project was kicked off in August 1980 and you could buy one in the store in August 1981. Michael Holley Chapter 18 - The Emergency Brigade Initial shipments of the new PC were made to Computerland outlets and Sears Business Centers less than a week before the machine was scheduled to be unveiled in New York City on Wednesday, August 12, 1981. The shipments were delayed till the last possible minute to avoid leaks to the press. Preferably, the packing boxes with the PCs inside would not even be opened until the afternoon on the day of the official announcement. Then, on August 10, a potentially devastating discovery threatened to cancel the scheduled introduction that so many people had worked so hard and so long to maintain. At about 2:30 in the afternoon, Joe Sarubbi and his staff were running final potentiometer tests to determine if there were any high-voltage leakage on some of the new PCs. Time and again, two of the machines tested positive, which meant that there was a possible dangerous voltage leak. The engineers quickly found that the 65-volt power supplies on the two machines had too close a tolerance between an electrical raw circuit board and the frame of the power supply. This in turn caused too close a spacing that could possibly lead to a short-circuit between the electrical current and the metal frame. The problem was brought to Wilkie's immediate attention. Then a quick call went out to convene the inner circle, along with Howie Davidson, the site general manager at Boca Raton. Sarubbi explained that the power supplies shipped to date had been tested and were shown to be safe. But the fan in the power supply could accumulate enough dust to create a `bridge' to the metal edge of the machine and cause a short-circuit. In addition, a look at worst-case tolerances between the printed circuit card and the frame revealed a tolerance that was unacceptably close, and a relay out of the circuit board had to be added to achieve a permanent fix for the problem. There was only a random chance that this could happen again, but that was still more of a chance than Wilkie and Sarubbi wanted to take. One power supply failure was one failure too many. Meanwhile, more than 1,700 machines-all with short-circuit potentials-were sitting innocently in storage at Computerlands and Sears Business Centers around the country. The IBM PC was intended to be the product to put the Sears Business Centers on the map. Accordingly, IBM had made elaborate arrangements for a full-scale demonstration of the machine to the retailer's senior management committee at the Sears Tower in Chicago on the morning of Tuesday, August 11. Now, here in Boca Raton, less than 18 hours before the big demonstration was set to begin 1,500 miles away, there was concern that the machines at Sears Tower would not only amaze, but could quite actually shock anyone who so much as laid a finger on their casings. Four pairs of eyes turned on Sarubbi. Estridge was the first to speak. "Okay, Joe, what do we do?" Sarubbi said, "We'll have to put a piece of insulation in every machine between the printed circuit board and the power supply cover. Fish paper, which is a non-conductive cardboard bridge, should be sufficient, but this is something we really have to do ourselves." Dan Wilkie suggested the formation of a quick task force. "We can call them 'The Power Supply Brigade,' and fly them out to Sears in Chicago and elsewhere to put in the insulation. But we have to do it now-today. Commercial flights won't get us there in time. We'll have to charter a private jet. When they're finished at Sears, they can go back to the Chicago airport and fly on to the next destination. Frankly, I don't see any other goddam way we can get this done if we still plan to show the machine to Sears tomorrow." Estridge winced. He turned back to Sarubbi and said, "Joe, the decision to go or not to go is yours." What Estridge really meant was, Should we stop the announcement or send out the Brigade? Sarubbi reasoned that not to send the Brigade would mean the PC announcement might be delayed for at least another 30 days. "That would put egg on our face in the industry and throughout the company," he later recalled. "But there was also no way that we could overlook the safety of the unit." Never before in his 30-odd years with the company had Joe Sarubbi been so overwhelmingly grateful that he worked for IBM with its vast resources and capital. He looked back at the frantic, frustrating and yet thoroughly exhilarating year gone by and remembered all the times he gazed across the ocean and said to himself, "Why in the hell did I ever get into this?" Then he pictured the other people on the project and concluded, "They're just like me. We're all of a kind. We're wild ducks within IBM and we're doing what wild ducks do and that's why I have to stay. " Then his thoughts returned to the present. "Uh, Joe," Estridge said. And Sarubbi instinctively knew what a wild duck would do at a time like this, and so he said, "Send the Brigade. And keep the introduction just as it is." "Well, son-of-a-bitch! All right, let's go!" Wilkie shouted as he turned with a big grin and smacked his right fist into his ample left palm. Estridge had to shut his eyes for a moment to pretend he hadn't heard Wilkie, then came the famous grin. Sydnes and Davidson were also smiling, and for that moment, Joe Sarubbi, the old pro, the veteran IBMer, the self-professed beach bum-he was the king of the hill, at the top of the heap. -2- It so happened that Wilkie had a cadre of some 30 devoted admirers on his manufacturing staff. They were a gung-ho crowd who liked to hang around with Dan because he had a tough side with a tender edge and he was eminently fair. And they were loyal to Wilkie, because most of them had never worked for anyone else anywhere else at IBM. Infants all, they thought life at IBM was just like Project Chess, which, of course, made this a very good company to work for. As Wilkie would later reflect, "The team's strength lay in the fact that most of them had never really worked under the strictures of conventional IBM standards." Wilkie walked out of the meeting and gathered his staffers. Eagerly, expectantly, they circled around their leader as he explained what had happened and what had to be done. He said, "I want you guys to go home and get your toothbrushes and a change of clothes and then come right back here and standby to leave for Chicago tonight. You'll be going by private jet out of Boca Raton airport at midnight. We don't know how long you'll be gone, so he packed for at least three days." They all but tore the doors off to get home, grab their gear and get back to the office to be among the first in line to stand by for that emergency flight to Chicago. As soon as the last car squealed out of the IBM parking lot, Sarubbi's office became a war room. From this jerry-built command post, the senior staff on the PC group arranged for a private jet to be ready to leave at midnight for Chicago. The plane landed at 3:00 AM on Tuesday in Chicago. Black limousines were already waiting to whisk the Brigade through the dark streets and to the main entrance of the world's tallest building. Earlier, back at the war room, Sparky Sparks completed special arrangements to admit the Brigade to the Sears Tower at that late hour. The Brigade deployed to the demonstration room like commandos. Within three hours, their assignment was finished; the fish paper was secured in each PC and the machines were tested again for high-voltage leaks. The demonstration for the Sears management could go on as planned and no one had to know what happened in the Sears Tower the night before. Back at Boca Raton a phone call came at about 7:00 AM from somewhere in Chicago: "Mission accomplished!" the Brigade leader said. Sarubbi gave Wilkie the thumbs-up sign. Wilkie went back to his own office and took his spare shaving kit out of a desk drawer. Still not fully awake, he stumbled into the men's room and tried to remember the last time he'd had breakfast at home, followed by an uneventful working day. -3- During the next day and a half, the Power Supply Brigade, with ample supplies of fish paper, flew to Computerland stores in Texas and California. Once again, their missions were accomplished before the debut of the PC. But the power supply episode was still causing upset at Boca Raton. Wilkie recalled, "We were really paranoid about what happened. We said, `My God, what if the world finds out that we had this quality problem?' "In time, the world did find out, but the reaction was the exact opposite of what we thought it would be. People everywhere were saying, `What a class act this company has.' Sears and Computerland told us, `Now we know the kind of treatment we can demand from all the other companies we do business with.' And so," Wilkie said, "instead of this having a negative impact, it became a real plus for the project and an unforgettable experience for those men who flew around the country and worked around the clock to guarantee that the introduction of the PC would stay on schedule." -4- The IBM PC introduced in New York that week had one disk drive, 16 kilobytes of random access memory (RAM) and a $1,595 price tag. (Within four years, other manufacturers would have a "clone" of the basic PC with two disk drives, 256 kilobytes of RAM and it would be available for about $1,000.) By now, despite the company's security precautions and its refusal to give any details of the "new product introduction," enough information had leaked out of IBM to make the purpose of the August 12 announcement well known throughout the industry and on Wall Street. These reports were especially significant to Martin A. Alpert in Cleveland, Ohio. Alpert, a doctor and engineer, was president of a small company called Tecmar, a sort of anagram for "Marty's technology. Tecmar got its start with a computer-based machine used to diagnose lung problems. But the company had the technology in place to build add-on products for the basic IBM PC. Predicting that there would be an enormous market for such add-ons, Alpert put his staff to work designing products for a machine they had never seen. Then he made careful plans to buy an IBM PC when it became available. As it turned out, Tecmar bought the first IBM PC to be sold anywhere. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon May 30 00:01:56 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:01:56 +0100 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429A9E44.70405@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that matter=20 >>>Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing Bristol=20 >>>Spline drivers) should have a set.=20 >> >>Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? > > > Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). I think of > them as : > > Allen : Triangular wave rapped round a circle > Torx : Sine wave rapped round a circle > Bristol : Square wave wrapped round a circle > > Very approximate, of course (and certainly not enough to machine a tool > to fit them), but it gives the right idea. I'd say the torx ones were more like a half-wave rectified sine wave, really - flat at the tips >>>or had been moodifed to allow a normal driver to get them out (e.g.=20 >>>removing the cerntal pin or cutting a slot across them), said engineer=20 >>>was supposed to replace the entire PSU (and charge the customer for it!= >> >>). >> >>>=20 >> >>This is still the case for a lot of "no user serviceable parts inside"=20 >>bits from IBM. Billable call, and then some... 350 quid plus vat and=20 >>parts, or thereabouts. > > > The comment on the PSU applied even if the service call was totally > unrelated to PSU problems, If an engineer came to, say, install some RAM > chips, he was supposed to check the PSU screws (and some other things) > and replace the PSU if necessary. > > This was, apparently, for safety reasons. IF the PSU had been opened, > there was no way to know if any nasty bodges had been done internally... > > (FWIW, I've opened IBM PSUs, I've repaired them, IMHO, properly and > safely, and I've put the tamperproof Torx screws back in again...) There was a repair to a PSU which involved snipping a resistor off the board. It was a ten second job, but needed to be done in the workshop for insurance reasons. Oh, and so that the serial numbers all matched, it meant taking the PSU away, doing the mod, and bringing it back the next day... all for the sake of a bean-counter's ego, I shouldn't wonder. >>>>Having said all that, I tend to take the same view as you when it comes >>>>to my classic car, and try and use the right bolts / screws etc. >>> >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>What have you got? >>>=20 >> >>Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I=20 >>can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I=20 >>always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless=20 > > > Well, my Father's Citroen BX (touch wood...) has hard very few hydraulic > problems. I've had to replace just one high pressure pipe (to the back > brakes), which was damaged by an idiot garage mechanic when he refitted > the rear subframe after an accident repair. Easy enough. You just need the funny pipe tool. You do know that you do the brake and suspension pipe nuts not much more than finger tight? Too much and you deform the rubber seal, and it leaks. Of course, this means that those not in the know horse the nuts up even tighter to seal it... They're good cars, but they're starting to get expensive to buy unless they're utter sheds. The early Xantias are starting to hit the "buy for hundred quid and spend that much again on the suspension" end of the market these days >>>and not that many people have a reasonably complete set of Whitworth=20 >>>spanners and sockets any more. >> >>Uhm, I do. And it's mostly old Citro=EBns I work on, all metric (but lot= > > > So do I, but then I have a Myford lathe, which is assembled with an > interesting mix of BSW, BA, and metric bolts... Argh. >>s=20 >>of 7mm and 11mm bolts). > > > 11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and > which Citroen seem to use to excess... Hm, not run across many, with the notable exception of the hydraulic bleeder on the regulator. They do, however, love their Torx screws for interior fittings, on the newer ones. Gordon From tomj at wps.com Mon May 30 01:06:42 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <429A56C4.1090307@bitsavers.org> References: <429A56C4.1090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20050529230453.F1488@localhost> On Sun, 29 May 2005, Al Kossow wrote: >> From HIGH SPEED COMPUTING DEVICES, ERA Inc, 1950: > >> The whole book actually reeks of vapor. > > Um... ERA were the people who built the "Project 13" machines during > WW II. The 1101 used a drum, and built the follow on 11xx machines > in the Twin Cites. ref "A Few Good Men From Univac" "From Dits To > Bits", etc. > > WISC was designed around he same time, and used a drum. Sorry, I was sloppy. I know what ERA did -- lots! "Vapor" isn't the right word... they did however describe designs (never built) in with projects built, makes them look even better contemporarily, but less useful historically (that particular book). From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 30 04:59:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC original power supply problem (long) In-Reply-To: <000501c564c9$a0b02670$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 May 2005, Michael Holley wrote: > This is from Blue Magic by James Chposky and Ted Leonsis.(1988) ISBN > 0-8160-13910-8 > > The book has a few technical errors, they mix-up 8080 and 8086 chips number > in one chapter. The refer to the modem guy as Dennis Glayes (Hayes). In this > chapter they refer to a 65 volt power supply (should be watt). The flow of > the book tells how the project was kicked off in August 1980 and you could > buy one in the store in August 1981. This is completely unacceptable tripe. If an author can't get simple, well-known, basic details like this correct then as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the book is crap and may as well be run through the shredder. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 30 05:34:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:34:50 -0400 Subject: IBM PC original power supply problem (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429AEC4A.nailMRF11P79G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [8088 vs 8086, Glayes vs Hayes, volt vs Watt] > If an author can't get simple, well-known, basic details like this > correct then as far as I'm concerned, the rest of the book is crap I've seen wonderful readable technical/historical articles completely demolished by incompetent editing in cahoots with wild spell-checking. The book's from 1988, which is when this phenomenon was at its worst. Far enough along that an editor would have a spell-checker plus perhaps a brother-in-law who was an "expert" on the technical subject, but way before they would fire the edited manuscript back to the original author for final approval. So while it may be the author, and a GOOD EDITOR might correct such technical mistakes, I think it's far more likely that a BAD EDITOR did the damage. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 30 05:46:39 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:46:39 -0400 Subject: cpu/disc/memory vs time In-Reply-To: <429A51B6.9010602@bitsavers.org> References: <429A51B6.9010602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <429AEF0F.nailMWQ11QL3E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > http://www.jcmit.com/cpu-perf-chart.htm Very interesting attempt to cross-reference CPU performance/benchmarks across 7 decades. I'm not sure I agree with every step but I'm sure I couldn't do better! > http://www.jcmit.com/memoryprice.htm > http://www.jcmit.com/diskprice.htm Good that he includes lots of data from 70's/80's BYTEs. He seems to miss most of the minicomputer market of the era, though. It's harder to do that inclusion because there was easily a factor of 3 in price between selling prices and list prices, and even the list prices usually weren't published in things as available as BYTE. Finding ads and reviews from, say, Digital Review would be a start. I think a couple of his price points from BYTE were probably vaporware at publishing time, although within a year or so they were relevant. Tim. From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon May 30 07:49:25 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:49:25 -0400 Subject: Fluke 9010A revisions/upgrades In-Reply-To: References: <42990764.5050807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <429B0BD5.2080404@jcwren.com> Two good links: and --jc Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 5/28/05, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>Does anyone have a list of >>differences between the various versions, and what it takes to upgrade a >>unit? >> >>-- >> >>you may want to ask on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting >> >>there were a bunch of people using/collecting 9010 stuff there. >> >> > >Thanks for the tip... I have a Fluke 9010 and two pods (68000 and 6502). > >-ethan > > > > From fryers at gmail.com Mon May 30 09:52:15 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 22:52:15 +0800 Subject: another ebay weirdness In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A92@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045A92@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: All, On 5/27/05, James Fogg wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > one simple question: > > > > What is that card for? > > > > Please don't laugh - I am a bit too young to know everything > > about strange vintage computing stuff.... > > It passes the bus grant signal along to the next card on the bus. Empty > slots between cards need one. Please excuse the errors in this description. I am working from memory and I last read the Q22 bus documentation a couple of years ago. The grant continuity cards pass the interrupt signal through the slots where there are no cards. The Q22 bus is designed to have interrupt priority determined by physical location in the card cage. Cards electrically closer to the CPU have a higher priority than cards that are further away. The interrupt lines pass through each of the cards in the card cage. This means that for the interrupts to work, the card cage has to be fully populated between the last card in the card cage and the CPU. This posed a problem when working with full height and half height Q22 bus boards. A card cage configuration may result in a (or several) half height gap(s) in the card cage. A grant continuity card is used in this case to pass the interrupt signals over the gap while adding no additional logic. To my knowledge, grant continuity cards were also used when a single card was removed. This eliminated the need to move the remainder of the cards in the card cage. Hope this makes things a little bit clearer. Good luck. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 30 10:00:45 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:00:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fluke 9010A revisions/upgrades Message-ID: <20050530150045.66029.qmail@web25004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Two good links: > > and That last one was very usefull. Now if only there were binary images of the programmable parts somewhere. 8^)= Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 30 06:16:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:16:28 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117451788.13645.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 23:49 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I did say something like 'make no unnecessary modifications'. I've > modified enough machines over the years that if I claimed modifications, > and hackery vwere a Bad Thing, it would clearly be a lie. And yes, I have > modified classic computers, even when they were already classic. > > But those modifications were useful in that they improved the machine. > Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace > a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a > useful or nexessary modification. But in this case the need for the uncommon types of screw has gone away, you say the required tool is expensive, and it seems that it's hardly used on any machines (although it would probably be justified if the person was an IBM collector) Given that it's also a common machine, it'd seem more sensible to me to spend the money that would have gone on buying the tool on other aspects of preservation instead. If I were coming across a flood of machines needing this particular tool then it'd be a different matter, of course. > > BTW2, I do NOT damage fasteners by cutting slots, etc. The PC came out in > > August 1981. In September, I bored holes down the middle of torx bits. > > (can't do very many with a cheap drill bit!) > > Not if they're decent Torx bits, anyway :-). Nowadays the tamperproof > Torx bits are quite easy to find, thankfully. Luckily computers don't seem to make much use of the type of bolt that has the splines on the outside of the head... (I've got a set for car work, but those weren't at all cheap when I got them) > > It really isn't hard to get or make the right tool, if you WANT to keep it > > original. I did wonder about it in the case of this IBM. I probably wouldn't be able to make something that precise given the small size, though :-( > I mentioned this thread to a friend of mine (who is an excellent hacker > and his comment was something like "He's working on IBM machines without > a set of Bristol Spline keys? Ouch!" Hey, it was only two of them, and it's not like they were tucked away on an inside edge somewhere! :-) Easy with a pair of good long-nosed pliers - the time-consuming bit was digging out all of the various allen keys etc. to see if I had something that would fit :) cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon May 30 11:05:27 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:05:27 -0700 Subject: Microdata Reality References: <00de01c563f2$eca26bb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <60580.71.129.198.222.1117386464.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <429B39C7.15F5904@msm.umr.edu> Pick systems was selling his equivalent of the Reality system at the time as an upgrade to the 1600, or on Intertechnique 1600 clones, which eventually were the Red boxed "Evolution" computers that he spun off. Anyway, we helped make a special firmware board for the 1600 system with a 5 card heart flush logo, that was the "royale flush" board. somewhere I have one of these with our R77 firmware on it. It was one of Pick's better jokes on Microdata. At the time, Microdata was trying to pull the marketning and sales of reality inhouse and had decleard war on their dealer network, a tactic which has been proven to be pretty stupid. I was in this case, as it lead to Micordata having to be acquired by McDonnell Douglas. McD was marketing a system thru a division called Health Systems, which needed the Reality, and could not jump to other hardware quickly. McD had the habit of making business units out of service division, so as such had what would today be called made the IT department into McAuto, and their inhouse early Healthcare providing group into this health system division, which sold an information management system to companies who were self insured in those days before formal HMO's. Jim Eric Smith wrote: > >> I'm curious if it's an M1600, M2000, or Microdata Reality Royale. Those > > Wow, the "Reality Royale"! Sounds like it would've been lined in purple > > Is it available with cheese? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon May 30 11:10:17 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:10:17 -0700 Subject: Microdata Reality References: <4297EC59.7020909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <429B3AE9.E8A43440@msm.umr.edu> John Bohner and I would be glad to assist in any way, iding things. I have engineering info on most all Microdata stuff thru the 1600. I also have a simulator in the works for the 1600, and the 3200 32/s systems. Al Kossow wrote: > > Was it here where I was mentioning it? > > It was to me > > Jay and Jim will be interested, I'm sure. From marvin at rain.org Mon May 30 12:31:25 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:31:25 -0700 Subject: VCM Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <429B4DED.EAC82EB7@rain.org> I've posted (and will continue to post) a number of things I don't need on VCM rather than EBay. Some other people have also posted some interesting items. Some of the latest include plastic ready light covers numbered 0 - 7 and 1 - 5 for (I think) the DEC RLO2 disk drive. http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 14:07:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:07:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <200505292351.TAA15464@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 29, 5 07:38:21 pm Message-ID: > > > But to replace a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the > > right tool is not a useful or nexessary modification. > > It is if the bother involved in getting "the right tool" is high > enough. :-) I deisagree, but then again I have been known to _make_ the right tool rather than mangle the device I am working on. > > I, for example, would have no idea where to go to obtain a set of the > Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one > across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even. Might I suggest a well-know search engine called 'google' Typing 'bristol spline keys' (without the quotes) into that got a large number of hits, many of which seemed to be companies who would sell such tools. Obviously I've not tried any of them, but I can't believe nobody has them in stock. Anyway, earlier in this thread I mentioned you could get them from Farnell. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 14:17:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:17:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429A9E44.70405@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 30, 5 06:01:56 am Message-ID: > >>Ah, see, I don't. I want the damn thing to work, and reliably. If I=20 > >>can make it easy to fix when it goes wrong, even better. That's why I=20 > >>always replace the steel hydraulic pipes with kunifer, and use stainless=20 > > > > > > Well, my Father's Citroen BX (touch wood...) has hard very few hydraulic > > problems. I've had to replace just one high pressure pipe (to the back > > brakes), which was damaged by an idiot garage mechanic when he refitted > > the rear subframe after an accident repair. > > Easy enough. You just need the funny pipe tool. You do know that you > do the brake and suspension pipe nuts not much more than finger tight? I have the official 3-volume workshop manual... (and for that matter the manuals for the DS19, ID19 and GS) There are actually torque settings given for the hydraulic unions (3 sizes, of course). And IIRC you are supposed to try tightening them a little more if they leak after fitting. But in my experience, if a union starts to leak in service, there's little point in trying to tighten it. Replace the sleeve seal.... And get the Facom spanners designed for working on such unions. At least if you ever have to fit one in a restricted space... > Too much and you deform the rubber seal, and it leaks. Of course, this > means that those not in the know horse the nuts up even tighter to seal > it... > >>of 7mm and 11mm bolts). > > > > > > 11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and > > which Citroen seem to use to excess... > > Hm, not run across many, with the notable exception of the hydraulic > bleeder on the regulator. They do, however, love their Torx screws for I've found them elsewhere too. > interior fittings, on the newer ones. All over the place, actually. When I rebuilt the steering rack, the operating culinder was held at one end by a special Torx-headed bolt. When I replaced the clutch, I was supprised that the pressure plate assembly was held to the flywheel with Torx-headed bolts, And so on. You _need_ a set of torx drivers for working on such cars. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 14:23:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:23:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117451788.13645.12.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 30, 5 11:16:28 am Message-ID: > > But those modifications were useful in that they improved the machine. > > Extra drives, extra connectors, etc sound to be useful. But to replace > > a screw just becasue you can't be bothered to get the right tool is not a > > useful or nexessary modification. > > But in this case the need for the uncommon types of screw has gone away, > you say the required tool is expensive, and it seems that it's hardly It's only expensive because it's normal to buy the full set of them. The one size you need should be well under a tenner from Farnell. > used on any machines (although it would probably be justified if the > person was an IBM collector) THen please let an IBM collector restore this machine. Don't make it less original than it has to be. > Given that it's also a common machine, it'd seem more sensible to me to > spend the money that would have gone on buying the tool on other aspects > of preservation instead. If I were coming across a flood of machines > needing this particular tool then it'd be a different matter, of course. Well, you never know when you might need it again (and surely there's at least one Flexowriter at BP that will need repair sometime?). I never object to spending money on tools (even though I have little money now...). And I never object to buying good tools, they will hopefully outlast me. > Luckily computers don't seem to make much use of the type of bolt that > has the splines on the outside of the head... (I've got a set for car > work, but those weren't at all cheap when I got them) I just pray you never get to work on a Feret. That thing is full of System Zero screws which are similar to the reverse-torx, but not compatible (and, indeed, designed to be difficult to remove with things like Mole Grips). Yes I do have the right tools -- I bought them to work on my Feret. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 14:05:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:05:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 29, 5 04:00:35 pm Message-ID: > "reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification. I would agree... > Back when I was actively working on cars, I considered "reasonably > complete" spanners and sockets to consist of: > > [RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best) I like the Facom combination spanners (ring (==box-end?) at one end, and a hooked open end at the other). They're effectively self-ratcheting and save a lot of time when working in a confined space. Don't be afraid to use 2 different tools to tighten (or loosen) a nut. E.g. a Facom open-end to get it fairly tight, then a ring spanner to get it fully done. The former is a lot better than a flat-at-a-time with a ring spanner :-) > Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) I've never found much use for those. The ends are so large they won't fit into the sort of space whrre a ratchet spanner would be useful. Facom (again) do some lovely spanners that are effectively ratchet rings that you can open to fit round a pipe, then clamp onto the union nut to loosen/tighten it. The only problem is that they are _very_ expensive. > "obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets) Very useful... Also : Those ring spanners with a gap in the ring to fit pipe unions (much nicer than using open-end spanners). Similar, but with a flange over one side of the fing so you can force the union nut in place. If you've ever tried to re-fit a Citroen hydraulic union in a confined space you'll know why I have a set :-) > 1/4 inch thin wall 6 point sockets > 1/4 inch thin wall 12 point sockets > 3/8 inch thin wall 6 point sockets > 3/8 inch thin wall 12 point sockets > 3/8 inch thin wall 12 point flank drive sockets (SNAP-ON) > 3/8 inch thin wall deep sockets in 6 and 12 point > 3/8 inch impact 6 point sockets > 3/8 inch 8 point sockets I've never needed the 3/8" drive sockets. Where I need more torque than can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket. On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension or tension them. > 1/2 inch thin wall 6 and 12 point regular and deep sockets > 1/2 inch impact sockets > 1/2 inch 8 point sockets > 3/4 inch impact sockets > 1 inch impact sockets (only a few sizes, such as 36 and 46 mm) I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I guess that's strong enough :-) Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but I had to dash out and get an open-end spanner in that size to get the back panel off an HP9810 calculator. There are 2 nuts on T-bolts going into the side panels that you have to undo, and that's the only tool that will do it. Fortunately the local (good) tool shop had one in stock, but it wasn't exactly cheap... (but then again, I never mind spending money on good tools). > Vise-grips 5WR I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable hand toolkit (i.e. not including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair. My starting list would be : Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least Phillips from size 000 to 2 Pozidrive from size 0 to 2 Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones. There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult) Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30 Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if you need to use a torque wrench or similar. Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm Bristol spline keys :-) Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc Larger long-nose pliers Normal pliers Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...) Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and larger wiring) Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones. Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair -- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 30 16:06:09 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050530140518.K94737@shell.lmi.net> > > I, for example, would have no idea where to go to obtain a set of the > > Bristol spline keys - unless possibly "ask Tony Duell to send me one > > across the pond" counts. It's hard enough to find torxes, even. On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Might I suggest a well-know search engine called 'google' Typing 'bristol > spline keys' (without the quotes) into that got a large number of hits, > many of which seemed to be companies who would sell such tools. Obviously > I've not tried any of them, but I can't believe nobody has them in stock. Even eBay has close to a dozen listings From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Mon May 30 16:11:35 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429B8187.7040905@vzavenue.net> > > >Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least >Phillips from size 000 to 2 >Pozidrive from size 0 to 2 >Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones. >There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult) >Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30 >Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm >Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes >Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if >you need to use a torque wrench or similar. >Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm >Bristol spline keys :-) >Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc >Larger long-nose pliers >Normal pliers >Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...) >Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and >larger wiring) >Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones. > >Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair >-- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera >lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc... > >-tony > Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would add my torque limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper torque when using screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38 in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads. I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof bits such as the three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier which has become almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drive sockets, open and closed end wrenches and a range of drive handles and extensions with the computer tools. They come in handy to assemble racks and I've actually needed a large wrench to remove large heat sinks from big SCR's before. I don't have the Bristol spline keys but I suppose I will at one time in the future, so I should go ahead and get a set. I have a varnished wooden machinist chest in the house for my computer/camera tools. The car tools are kept in the garage in a large roller box. From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 30 17:13:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429B8187.7040905@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 May 2005, James Rice wrote: > > > > > >Flat blade screwdrives from 0.8mm to 8mm tip width (at least > >Phillips from size 000 to 2 > >Pozidrive from size 0 to 2 > >Torx drivers T6 to T30 (prefereably both L-shapered and handled ones. > >There are some ball-ended Torx which are very useful if access is difficult) > >Tamperproof Torx from T10 to T30 > >Allen hex from 0.05" to 3/8" and 1.27mm to 8mm > >Ball-eneded Allen hex of roughly the same sizes > >Socket-set adapter + 'insert bits' for Allen and Torx are very useful if > >you need to use a torque wrench or similar. > >Nutdrivers and/or sockets from 1/8" to 1/2" and 3mm to 12mm > >Bristol spline keys :-) > >Small precsion pliers for wire-bending, etc > >Larger long-nose pliers > >Normal pliers > >Small slip-joint pliers (CK made/make a lovely pair about 4" long...) > >Side cutters, end cuters in at least 2 sizes of each (for PCB work and > >larger wiring) > >Tweezers. At least 2 pairs of non-magnetic ones. > > > >Many of the other tools in my toolbox are not really for computer repair > >-- things like a Jaxa watch case tool (but it fits the HP01...), a camera > >lens spanner wrench, valve remover/pin straightener. etc... > > > >-tony > > > > Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would add my torque > limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper torque when using > screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a > couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein > Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38 > in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads. > I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof bits such as the > three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of > Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier which has become > almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and > 1/2 drive sockets, open and closed end wrenches and a range of drive > handles and extensions with the computer tools. They come in handy to > assemble racks and I've actually needed a large wrench to remove large > heat sinks from big SCR's before. > > I don't have the Bristol spline keys but I suppose I will at one time in > the future, so I should go ahead and get a set. I have a varnished > wooden machinist chest in the house for my computer/camera tools. The > car tools are kept in the garage in a large roller box. My medicine cabinet contains (from memory): (1) bottle aftershave (2) dental mirrors (3) dental floss (4) toothbrush (currently being used) (5) toothbrush (new) (6) various colognes (7) razor bits What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Mon May 30 17:50:40 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:50:40 +0200 Subject: Olivetti M-20 PCOS or other OS References: Message-ID: <005001c5656a$012afb60$1502a8c0@ACER> Hello. I own one Olivetti M-20 that I'm cleaning and checking. All appears to go well but the diskette with the PCOS system is damaged. Someone dispose of one operative copy of PCOS or another OS for this machine ? I would be agreed for the eternity (uh... perhaps less time, but a lot sure). Thanks Sergio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 17:49:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:49:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429B8187.7040905@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at May 30, 5 04:11:35 pm Message-ID: > Very similar to my computer/camera tool kit. I would add my torque Ah, another person who fiddles with cameras ... > limiting bit drive handles to set things to the proper torque when using > screw bits- most of mine are Sturtevant-Richmont, but I also have a > couple of the exact same driver handles private labeled by Klein > Tools. The one on my desk today has a range on 0.2 to 4 nm (2-38 > in/lbs). Pretty handy to keep from overtorquing and stripping threads. I have a small 'Britool' torque wrench (1/4" square drive) which gets used with an adaoter and 1/4" hex insert bit for things like RK05 head clamp screws. I can't remember the last time I stripped a thread by overtightening it, and for most things I don't use a torque wrench. But if the manufacturer has bothered to specify a torque value, I am going to do the job properly. > I would also add a complete assortment of tamper-proof bits such as the > three armed phillips, pentagon allen, spanner tipped bits; a set of Yes, I forgot those. I have a reasonable set. And as I mentioned in another message, System Zero tools (which do get used on classic computers). And a set of taps and dies in the common sizes. Apart from being useful when making replacement parts/doing modifications, they're also useful for cleaning up old threads, particularly if covered in threadlock. And if you're a cammera hacker, you pretty much need 0.5mm and 0.75mm thread chasers :-) > Panavise bases and heads; and an illuminated magnifier which has become > almost a necessity after I turned 50. I do keep a set of 1/4, 3/8 and I have never got on with any form of magnifier. The limited depth of field drives me up the wall. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 30 17:51:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:51:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 30, 5 03:13:01 pm Message-ID: [List of useful things for classic computer reapir deleted] > My medicine cabinet contains (from memory): [List of things that have no use in classic computer repair deleted] > What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. toiletries don't. -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon May 30 18:38:22 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:38:22 -0400 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429BA3EE.nail7B719OZ8G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > toiletries don't Those dental mirrors come in real handy for lots of mechanical jobs. And I've put some floss to a few creative uses, too :-) Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 30 18:57:34 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050530162125.R95956@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > "reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification. > I would agree... > > [RARELY used] open end wrenches of all sizes used (MAC were best) > I like the Facom combination spanners (ring (==box-end?) at one end, and > a hooked open end at the other). They're effectively self-ratcheting and > save a lot of time when working in a confined space. We hardly ever see Facom around here. The ratcheting open ends that we can get around here tend to have too thick a side wall to be usable. The MAC open ends have a tolerably thin side wall, and a half hexagon broach, instead of the half oval broach that most open-ends have. > > Ratcheting box ends in 6 and 12 point (SNAP-ON) > I've never found much use for those. The ends are so large they won't > fit into the sort of space whrre a ratchet spanner would be useful. The SNAP-ON ratcheting box-ends are the only ones with a thin enough side wall, and fine toothed enough to ever be usable. For example, some of the early Honda Civics did not have a removable pully on the water pump. Two of the water pump bolts could be easily removed with a Snap-On ratcheting 10mm, or by cycling through three different box-ends, but no socket or open end would fit. > Facom (again) do some lovely spanners that are effectively ratchet rings > that you can open to fit round a pipe, then clamp onto the union nut to > loosen/tighten it. The only problem is that they are _very_ expensive. I completely left out flare-nut wrenches, crow's foot wrenches, etc. > > "obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets) > Very useful... It helps to have a lot of different ones > I've never needed the 3/8" drive sockets. Where I need more torque than > can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket. > On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing > belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension > or tension them. I have often needed more torque than a 1/4 could handle, but not enough clearance for 1/2" Around here, 3/8" is the default for auto repair; when I was in the Washington, DC area (salted roads, etc.) 1/2" was the default. > I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest > torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I > guess that's strong enough :-) That'll do nicely for assembly. I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. > Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but I have a number of tools that I've rarely had need of. But once is enough. > I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable hand toolkit (i.e. not > including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair. > My starting list would be : medical hemostats (called "roach clip"s in California) dental mirror(s) inspection light(s) and/or otoscope right-angle ratcheting 1/4" bit driver small "slim-jim", such as IBM punch card jam clearer If others have been in it before, then add: reachers/dropped item retrievers 5wR vise-grips for removing destroyed fasteners taps drill BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell, etc.) From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 30 19:17:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > [List of useful things for classic computer reapir deleted] > > > My medicine cabinet contains (from memory): > > [List of things that have no use in classic computer repair deleted] > > > What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. > > Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. > toiletries don't. My basic hygiene disagrees with you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 30 19:23:53 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: 11/23 9trk RM03 in Huntsville Message-ID: <429BAE99.9040505@bitsavers.org> I noticed an RM03 in a ebay posting, so I asked if it was for sale. Here's the reply. Obviously this will only be of interest in pickup range. If someone is serious about this, I'll forward you his email adr. === You asked: "are you going to be selling the CDC 9762 that the generator is sitting on?" Boy... you've opened a can of worms. If you will send me your email address then I will send pictures of my 1st home computer... PDP-11/23 with 9 track tape.. Qbus to Unibus converter to drive the disk as an RM-03 etc... My daughter has it posted on the local BB at her company and I've given them until next Friday to respond. Then the whole ball-of-PDP wax is going to go on ebay.. If you are interested in all or just the disk drive we can discuss it by private email since its not been comitted to ebay yet... Best regards From bear at typewritten.org Mon May 30 19:45:32 2005 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:45:32 -0700 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 30, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. > toiletries don't. Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid. Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us this shaky rationalization. ok bear From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon May 30 21:21:25 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:21:25 -0700 Subject: ROM Adapter Board Message-ID: <000d01c56587$78f241e0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I have made several ROM replacement sockets for the masked programmed Motorola 6800 MIKBUG ROM used in the SWTPC 6800 system. The MCM6830 ROM does not have a EPROM equivalent. The replacement board has a 74LS20 (to map the 4 enables) and a 2716 EPROM. The challenge was to find pins that could be soldered into the ROM board that would plug into the existing socket on the CPU board. I bought several types of pins and headers from surplus stores and Digi-Key. I have determined that capacitor leads are the best solution. Many capacitor lead are made of steel and are much stiffer than resistor leads. The ones I get from 0.1 uf bypass caps are just the right size for machine tooled sockets. I can make a lower profile adapter then if I use header pins. I describe the process (with pictures) in the Users Guide on this page. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ROM_Emulator/ROM_Index.htm Michael Holley From news at computercollector.com Mon May 30 23:54:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:54:31 -0400 Subject: Dayton report, anyone? Message-ID: <200505310454.j4V4s7xY014114@dewey.classiccmp.org> Would like to hear it was this year, vintage-computer-wise.... ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 730 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From cctech at randy482.com Tue May 31 00:00:22 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:00:22 -0500 Subject: Northstar Advantage - Demo Diagnostic Disk found References: Message-ID: <002a01c5659d$aa5141d0$c93cd7d1@randy> From: "John S" Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 6:37 AM > Hi, > > I have now found and successfully copied the 'Demo/Diagnostic' disk for > the NorthStar Advantage. This is a hard sector floppy, so consequentially > I don't know how to back it up to a PC and e-mail it. If anyone wants a > copy and can provide a blank hard sector floppy (5.25" 10 sector) please > e-mail for address details. > > Regards, > John > UK Dave Dunfield has software to transfer disk images via the serial port. It runs under DOS/GDOS. Dave's page is at: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html I'd like a copy, if you don't have a serial port or don't know how to modify the I/O section let me know. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From herby1620 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 01:16:16 2005 From: herby1620 at yahoo.com (Herbert C. Williams) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements link? In-Reply-To: <200505260234.j4Q2Ymsn050501@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050526061617.4715.qmail@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Still more stories about Neon lamps: Experimenting as a kid (35 years ago or so), I hooked one (an NE-2) directly across a telephone line as an indicator for the ring signal. It worked "kinda". Turns out that the AC voltage of the ring caused the bulb to strike, and since I didn't have a resistor in series, the current of the strike was enough to signal "answer". Then the central office returned the supply voltage to the normal 48 volts, and since this was below the keep voltage, the bulb went out and with no current, the C.O. thought the phone was hung up. The other extension phones had a short ring. The caller heard little. You had to run to the phone and answer it if you wanted to talk. It makes for a very annoying trick! The solution to this is to add a resistor (about 51k as I remember it) in series. The current drawn when ringing thru the resistor isn't enough to make the C.O. trip answer. Now fast forward a bunch of years, and I work for a company that uses neon-CdS "optical isolators" to detect ring. They DID put the reisitor in series. The problem then happened that they forgot to put a capicator in series as well. Normally this doesn't make any difference, but in some areas (mostly rural) the voltage is raised to make up for long line loss. Sometimes it is raised to over 90 volts. In some of these situations the indicator would always indicate "ring". It wasn't too good. Now days we use optical isolators and a series R-C combination. It works pretty well. You need a reverse diode across the optical isolator (an LED works well, and makes a good indicator) so the cap won't take on a DC bias. p.s. 4 layer diodes work like neon lights (different strike/hold voltages) but a lower voltages. An X-Y matrix similar to the neon ones discussed would work, but with no visual readout. These were proposed, but IC's came into being, and the hassel wasn't worth it. Oh, well. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:16:34 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:16:34 +0100 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! Message-ID: Hi list, I pulled the following from a skip (or dumpster as you North Americans would have it!): http://img163.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp854qg.jpg (5 x HP85 computers) http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp86b4wy.jpg (3 x HP86B computers) http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hpdrives8zh.jpg (5 x HP9121 dual drives, 1 x HP9122 dual drive) Is there anything specific to these machines I should check (aside from the obligatory stuff-from-a-dumpster drying-out period) before trying to power them on? I haven't got a monitor that will do the NTSC composite from the HP86Bs at the moment so I can't really try those, but I can try the HP85s and the drives if it's OK to. Thanks, Ed. From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 27 02:11:22 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:11:22 +0200 Subject: Cycle Computer Corporation Sun clone board... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71df6d2bc8b9ed4fde4becb64a0dbdc7@norbionics.com> On 27 May, 2005, at 02:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > The _correct_ standard is to use a male DB25 for a DTE (terminal) and a > female one for a DCE (modem). The old way to rememebr that (and I am > showing my age now) is that Ma Bell is female, and that's where you > rented the modem from. My mnemonic was that pins always point towards the network. Wonder if I still have an old CCITT Yellow Book stashed away somewhere... -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 27 02:19:56 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:19:56 +0200 Subject: Neon logic In-Reply-To: <20050526222336.R1488@localhost> References: <20050526222336.R1488@localhost> Message-ID: <03ae7b135bd438e415cfe56f7ae02a1d@norbionics.com> On 27 May, 2005, at 07:25, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Reading would actually be the easy part- drop a phototransistor in >>> (optical) >>> line with the NE - pricy but doesn't affect the stored data. > > But not practical -- "easy" in a memory array is really code for > low parts count/high reliability. > > But you're right, it would solve the read problem and also make it > a dual-port memory! One might even keep down the part count by coating the outside of the tubes with photoresistor or even selenium... Photodiodes are rather too modern. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 27 10:08:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:08:09 +0200 Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: <4bddc0524830d27afd87d255e0bf5df7@norbionics.com> On 27 May, 2005, at 10:29, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote: >> certainly, IBM did not invent the disk drive. They may have >> commercialized it first, but I doubt that even. > > I'd be very interested to hear of any working magnetic disk drive, > commerical or otherwise, predating the IBM RAMAC. > >> Hand-wave -- it was obvious. > > In hindsight it looks obvious. I'm not convinced that it was > obvious 50 years ago. > The least obvious part of it was how to make a system where the head did not scrape away the coating. Poulsen had shown how to record to a fast-moving wire. His telegraphone had severe head wear. Agfa had shown how to use a paper tape coated with iron oxide to be able to work at lower head to tape speeds and get less head wear, and the tape backing was subsequently improved to acetate film. How to make this work when the magnetic coating was on a rigid surface was far from obvious. Magnetic drum assemblies were extremely tricky to adjust. There was a reason why they used fixed heads - the principle of moving along the drum axis had been known since Edison made the phonograph. The rason why drum storage used fixed heads was that nobody had figured out how to make flying heads yet, so they needed a very rigid assembly where you could use screws to make micrometer adjustments. -- -bv From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri May 27 12:11:32 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:11:32 +0100 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi list, I pulled the following from a skip (or dumpster as you North Americans would have it!): http://img163.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp854qg.jpg (5 x HP85 computers) http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp86b4wy.jpg (3 x HP86B computers) http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hpdrives8zh.jpg (5 x HP9121 dual drives, 1 x HP9122 dual drive) Is there anything specific to these machines I should check (aside from the obligatory stuff-from-a-dumpster drying-out period) before trying to power them on? I haven't got a monitor that will do the NTSC composite from the HP86Bs at the moment so I can't really try those, but I can try the HP85s and the drives if it's OK to. Thanks, Ed. From hatfield at bellsouth.net Sat May 28 04:44:08 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (Fred Hatfield) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 04:44:08 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 45 References: <200505271700.j4RH0aIF074609@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001601c56369$cbb156c0$0202a8c0@ORG> > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:27:53 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Neon logic > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> Reading would actually be the easy part- drop a phototransistor in >> (optical) >> line with the NE - pricy but doesn't affect the stored data. > > I believe somebody made a neon matrix ROM -- have an electically > rectangular array of neons with some present, others not. By applying > suitable voltages to the X and Y wires, a particular location is > addressed and the neon there fires (if there is a neon at that location), > but none of the others do. > > There was a photomultiplier aimed at the neons to detect the light flash. > I seem to rememebr there was the well-known problem that neons in the > dark don't fire reliably, which was got round by firing another neon just > before addressing a location (this neon could have a high enough voltage > applied to it to make sure it always fired reliably) and then ignoring > the extra pulse from the PM tube. > > Of course this did not use the memory property of the neons themselves -- > the data was stored by which neons were fitted. > > I wish I could remember which machine used this. Maybe something like > EDSAC 2? > > -tony In 1958, I joined the Western Electric group developing electronic switching systems to replace electromechanical devices currently in use. There had been two previous complete office designs that were discarded, one of which used a matrix of neon bulbs as a switching matrix. The method was evidently using an X and Y "mark" that caused a random bulb to fire. I saw movies of the display but never the real thing since the design had preceded me for quite some time. There was an uncomfortable moment when a cameraman focused on a unique bulb in the matrix and asked a technician to make that particular one "fire". Being random, there was no way to direct such an action. Fred. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat May 28 18:12:34 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:12:34 +0100 Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards In-Reply-To: <57378.71.129.198.222.1117303501.squirrel@71.129.198.222> References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <57378.71.129.198.222.1117303501.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Message-ID: On 5/28/05, Eric Smith wrote: > David wrote: > > I am looking out for a couple of keyboards for project > > systems I am assembling. I need a VT102 keyboard (the > > original DEC one), plus an HPIL keyboard for a > > 9000/300. > > If you did manage to find an HP-IL keyboard (which is unlikely), > it will NOT work on an HP 9000/300 series machine. You need > an HP-HIL keyboard. HP-IL and HP-HIL are entirely different > interfaces. And if anyone happens to need any HP-HIL mice, I happen to know where to find a supply, NIB. Why does nothing I send to this list seem to get moderated? I sent a message about HP85/86Bs and related disk drives a few days ago and still haven't seen it go onto the list, yet I'm seeing a lot of stuff newer than that message. It's definitely not offtopic, those machines (the 85s) date from 1980. Ed. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 20:09:11 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for early (interesting) PCs Message-ID: <20050529010911.22363.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> to name a few: Mindset PC, HP Vectra (8086 or 286), Televideo Personal-Mini and PM/286, Canon AS-100 and AS-200, Xerox 8/16, NEC APC, Victor 9000, etc. I concentrate on the semi-compatibles. Also looking for SOFTWARE, IBM compatible and semi-compatible versions alike. I have been looking for an early version of Microsoft Fortran for as long as I can remember. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bv at norbionics.com Sun May 29 02:55:25 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 09:55:25 +0200 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462492b284edc46d8649d236dceb80ae@norbionics.com> On 29 May, 2005, at 02:03, Tony Duell wrote: >>> That is not an excuse. Anyone working on IBM 5155s (or for that >>> matter=20 >>> Friden Flexowriters, which are stuffed with setscrews needing >>> Bristol=20 >>> Spline drivers) should have a set.=20 >> >> Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? > > Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). I think of > them as : > > Allen : Triangular wave rapped round a circle > Torx : Sine wave rapped round a circle > Bristol : Square wave wrapped round a circle > > Very approximate, of course (and certainly not enough to machine a tool > to fit them), but it gives the right idea. http://www.mgs4u.com/bristol-wrench-spline.htm And at 15 USD for a holder with one bit, I would not say the price is unreasonable for a quality tool. About the same as I paid for a cheap Chinese set of some 100 bits of useable bot not great bits. ... > > 11mm is relatively common. It's 12mm that I find somewhat obscure, and > which Citroen seem to use to excess... 12mm is one of the common sizes around here. I never had any problem with tools for any of my Citro?ns, except that I had to get the socket for the central nut which holds the fan to the shaft on the GS from a heavy equipment store. If you have the original service manuals, you will see that they include instructions on how to make a number of useful special tools. I have heard that their apprentice mechanics had toolmaking as an important part of the training. -- -bv From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Mon May 30 06:37:40 2005 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:37:40 +0000 Subject: Northstar Advantage - Demo Diagnostic Disk found Message-ID: Hi, I have now found and successfully copied the 'Demo/Diagnostic' disk for the NorthStar Advantage. This is a hard sector floppy, so consequentially I don't know how to back it up to a PC and e-mail it. If anyone wants a copy and can provide a blank hard sector floppy (5.25" 10 sector) please e-mail for address details. Regards, John UK _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger 7.0 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk From cmcfadden5 at comcast.net Mon May 30 12:55:20 2005 From: cmcfadden5 at comcast.net (mcfadden) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:55:20 -0500 Subject: 31 volumes VMS documentation "Gray wall" available for shipping in Kansas City Message-ID: <000f01c56540$bf1dca00$6601a8c0@moms> 31 volumes VMS 5.0 and release 5.2 documentation in Gray DEC loosleaf binders also System managers guide and Guide to VAX C You pay shipping I'll provide the boxes. Currently in 3 boxes. I can ship without the binders if you want smaller boxes. Pretty heavy. Mike c m c f a d d e n 5 a t c o m c a s t d o t n e t From mbbrutman at brutman.com Mon May 30 13:17:27 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:17:27 -0500 Subject: system 36 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200505301700.j4UH0ivq008953@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505301700.j4UH0ivq008953@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <429B58B7.8070307@brutman.com> I have code in that thing .. (Specifically the low level OS that the 36 emulator is running on top of.) Mike From james at attfield.co.uk Mon May 30 14:40:03 2005 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:40:03 +0100 Subject: Looking for Comart CRAM-64 switch settings... In-Reply-To: <200505301701.j4UH0ivu008953@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ... or manual for same (or CRAM-48) to get my Cromemco Z2 back on line. All information gratefully appreciated. Jim Attfield From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 26 04:37:14 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:37:14 +0200 Subject: Question about PDF manipulation In-Reply-To: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200505251610.j4PGAAHI017158@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <8b6acd1f494ecad9aab34ae267296b71@norbionics.com> On 25 May, 2005, at 18:10, Barry Watzman wrote: > Adobe Acrobat has almost unlimited manipulation capabilities. You can > rearrange pages, add pages (from almost any format .... word documents, > JPEGs, other PDFs, scanners, TIFF .... just about anything), rotate > pages, > delete pages, and export pages as graphic images (in just about any > format). > You can export pages, do "whatever" to them, and reimport them. In general, I have a strong dislike for PDF files for any other purpose than to prepare for printing. It is not a format that is suitable for seaching, referencing or easy manipulation. I want my digital information to be in a format that offers as much syntactical information as possible, and keeps presentation separate from content. With generally available software today, that means an XML-based format. XML with CSS for styling works admirably for presentation, and untold numbers of free, often cross.platform, applications exist to manipulate it. Please do not waste any time making new PDF documents, it will only make it more difficult to extract the information in a useable way later. If anything which exists in a PDF must be changed, it is much better to extract it into even a quite primitive XML or HXTML document. It might not look equally pretty in every reader, but it will be much easier to work with. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Thu May 26 04:43:13 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:43:13 +0200 Subject: zip now Archival quality printing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d09f78ce202599a4923357ca021de7b@norbionics.com> On 25 May, 2005, at 19:27, McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > One of my thoughts was to take an archival quality black pen and insert > it into a pen plotter and use archival quality alkaline paper. Write > out information, kind of an automated "monk" except they don't have to > take time off for prayers, sleep and food. We did that with HP Slate as our publishing tool and an 8-pen plotter back when colour printers were generally unavailable. If you use a reed pen, you can use real drafting ink, It is made from carbon particles, and should last longer than even the best paper. .. -bv From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 31 00:36:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 01:36:10 -0400 Subject: Dayton report, anyone? In-Reply-To: <200505310454.j4V4s7xY014114@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200505310454.j4V4s7xY014114@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 5/31/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Would like to hear it was this year, vintage-computer-wise.... I gave a report after my Friday run (including dinner with the classiccmp gang afterwards). In short, cool, not too much sun, no real rain, a few 1980s micros, an AIM-65 w/two 8" drives for $500, an Altair 8800b w/2 8" drives for $1000, some classic goodies in Dan Cohoe's truck to act as bait/geek-flypaper... personally, I picked up a few things on my shopping list, but didn't see people selling many ICs in tubes (something I went looking for). Fewer goodies of interest to me than last time (2003). Virtually no DEC stuff, and very little Sun stuff compared to previous years. -ethan From news at computercollector.com Tue May 31 01:06:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 02:06:41 -0400 Subject: Dayton report, anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200505310605.j4V65f2T015903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Sorry, I missed that. Read it just now in the archives. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dayton report, anyone? On 5/31/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Would like to hear it was this year, vintage-computer-wise.... I gave a report after my Friday run (including dinner with the classiccmp gang afterwards). In short, cool, not too much sun, no real rain, a few 1980s micros, an AIM-65 w/two 8" drives for $500, an Altair 8800b w/2 8" drives for $1000, some classic goodies in Dan Cohoe's truck to act as bait/geek-flypaper... personally, I picked up a few things on my shopping list, but didn't see people selling many ICs in tubes (something I went looking for). Fewer goodies of interest to me than last time (2003). Virtually no DEC stuff, and very little Sun stuff compared to previous years. -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 31 02:01:13 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:01:13 +0100 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429C0BB9.5070300@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > I just pray you never get to work on a Feret. That thing is full of > System Zero screws which are similar to the reverse-torx, but not > compatible (and, indeed, designed to be difficult to remove with things > like Mole Grips). Yes I do have the right tools -- I bought them to work > on my Feret. Are those the ones that are much flatter than a reverse Torx, but with very thin splines and tapered so that pliers, moleys and the like just slide off? Gordon. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 02:06:08 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:06:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Neon bulb logic elements Message-ID: <20050531070608.71691.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I'm (far too) slowly clearing through umpteen years of accumulated quality second user parts getting ready to move house. While sorting through one box I found one of my first completed projects, a neon heads/tails unit. I don't remember where I got the circuit from, I do remember building and testing it on my bed before I re-built it into it's box. Sometimes I'm suprised I survived those early experiments. For anyone interested it's written up here .. http://www.themotionstore.com/leeedavison/misc/first/index.html http://members.lycos.co.uk/leeedavison/misc/first/index.html .. remember, don't try this at home. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 31 02:43:54 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:43:54 +0100 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429C15BA.4050507@gjcp.net> r.stricklin wrote: > Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid. > > Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us > this shaky rationalization. > > ok > bear > Oooh, I don't know, the oldest XMs are 16 years old and have a hell of a lot of computers in them. Just the place for a 68HCxx enthusiast to go and play... ;-) Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 31 02:54:44 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:54:44 +0100 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050530162125.R95956@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050530162125.R95956@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <429C1844.8070501@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 30 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >>>"reasonably complete" is a VERY subjective quantification. >> >>I would agree... >>>"obstruction" wrenches (box end in C and S shapes, and with odd offsets) >> >>Very useful... > > It helps to have a lot of different ones Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be heated up and bent >>I've never needed the 3/8" drive sockets. Where I need more torque than >>can be applied with a1/4" drive, there's enough room for a 1/2" socket. >>On the other hand, a 3/8" drive (or adapter) is essential, many timing >>belt tensioners have a 3/8" hole in the plate which you use to untension >>or tension them. > > I have often needed more torque than a 1/4 could handle, but not enough > clearance for 1/2" > Around here, 3/8" is the default for auto repair; when I was in the > Washington, DC area (salted roads, etc.) 1/2" was the default. Aha. I come from an agricultural background. 1/2" is ok for a lot of things, but you really want to keep the 3/4" drive stuff closest. >>I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest >>torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I >>guess that's strong enough :-) > > > That'll do nicely for assembly. > I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs > to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet > to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. I bought a (relatively) cheap breaker bar from Halfords (expensive car bits chain in the UK). It's actually bloody good - a lot of their tools they stock are made by Draper or Sykes-Pickavant, so I guess their "own brand" stuff might be made by someone like that. It made short work of the driveshaft nuts on my Citro?n CX, which had up to that point even resisted the air wrench at my local tyre fitting place. The trick was to get the wheel off, get the cap off the nut, put the wheel back on, and have the car sitting on its wheels, with someone pressing the brakes as hard as possible. Cracking the cooling fan nut on my GSA (aircooled flat four up the front) was another breaker bar job too - but because of the angle things were at I had to get the bar on it and lift in weightlifter style. Once I managed to stop lifting the car off the axle stands, things went well... >>Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but > > I have a number of tools that I've rarely had need of. But once is > enough. >>I wonder what's considered to be a reasonable hand toolkit (i.e. not >>including test gear, soldering tools, etc) for classic computer repair. >>My starting list would be : > > > medical hemostats (called "roach clip"s in California) > dental mirror(s) > inspection light(s) and/or otoscope > right-angle ratcheting 1/4" bit driver > small "slim-jim", such as IBM punch card jam clearer Dental mirrors are great. My girlfriend's Mum used to be a sales rep for a medical company, and one of the freebies they had to ply doctors with was sets of very, very nice highly polished stainless minor surgery tools - scalpel handle, stitch cutters, stitch hooks and the like. Of course, as they are, a lot of them are really only good for tieing and cutting stitches. They are, however, a good start for a lot of little funky custom tools for poking electronics with. > If others have been in it before, then add: > reachers/dropped item retrievers > 5wR vise-grips for removing destroyed fasteners > taps > drill > BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell, etc.) Angle grinder, gas axe... Actually lock picks are often useful. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 07:40:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:40:49 +0000 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429C1844.8070501@gjcp.net> References: <20050530162125.R95956@shell.lmi.net> <429C1844.8070501@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1117543249.15141.38.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 08:54 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be heated up and bent been there, done that. I have ended up making all sorts of tools for car work - just don't think I'd be able to make a set of bristol spline keys... > > That'll do nicely for assembly. > > I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs > > to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet > > to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. Ouch. Not often I've ever needed more than about 150lb/ft on a car, exception being removing cylinder head studs that are corroded into engine blocks. I've known 1940's machinery that's been in that sort of state though (and heating the right bits with a gas torch has been the only way to loosen them up) > I bought a (relatively) cheap breaker bar from Halfords (expensive car > bits chain in the UK). It's actually bloody good - a lot of their tools > they stock are made by Draper or Sykes-Pickavant, so I guess their "own > brand" stuff might be made by someone like that. I've found that too. A couple of the ratchets I've had from Halfords have proved to be bomb-proof so far; I bought them in a hurry for a job a long time ago figuring I'd get some better ones later, and they're still going strong with no signs of wear. Same deal with one of their 1.5 ton trolley jacks; it's had a huge amount of use over the last 8 years or so and is only now starting to show signs of distress. > >>Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but Hmm, I had to get one of those, can't even remember why now though. I have a feeling 15/32" isn't that common either. > Dental mirrors are great. Yep, one of those items (along with sanding blocks) that seem to be dirt cheap from car boot sales too. Regarding system zero screws, if they're what I think they are then I have come across them before - think it was in an old Sun disk unit, but I'm not certain. A decent pair of pliers with no slop in the joint makes short work of them though. cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 31 08:16:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:16:20 -0400 Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4298AAFC.nailN9M11SPV4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <17052.25508.166857.537069@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "shoppa" == shoppa classiccmp writes: >> I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) shoppa> Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the one with the shoppa> stereo phone plug on the end? shoppa> That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type keybaord. No. The VT100 (with the stereo plug) is fundamentally different from the VT2xx and later keyboards (with the 4 wire telephone handset plug). The VT2xx keyboards have an onboard microprocessor that does the keyboard scan and reports key-up and key-down events on a 4800 baud UART connection. It accepts commands in the reverse direction, for example to control autorepeat and the LEDs. The VT100 keyboard has a single data line that carries data both ways. And if I remember right, the terminal controls the scanning, with scan commands going out to the keyboard. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 31 08:24:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:24:41 -0500 Subject: OT: Couple of google groups questions In-Reply-To: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> References: <200505272000.NAA08492@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050531081749.05115658@mail> At 03:00 PM 5/27/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Nobody uses Usenet any more (much to my own personal chagrin as I found it >> very useful for many things, as I'm sure others did/do). > >Eh? I'm yakking all the time on comp.sys.cbm. And I routinely find better answers for contemporary computer problems in Google Groups rather than web sites... but I agree that usage has diminished, apart from the pic and movie groups. A larger similar question looms in my mind - places like Yahoo Groups. There's no mechanism for archiving those messages, is there, apart from someone keeping all the messages they receive? - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 31 08:54:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:54:06 -0400 Subject: Tools References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> <429A5E2C.8080607@woh.rr.com> Message-ID: <17052.27774.795998.465335@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David Holland writes: David> That's what I'd consider a reasonably complete set of tools David> too. Now would someone go tell that to the Ford engineers.. David> The Ford modular 4.6L v8 DOHC as used in the 1995 Lincoln David> Continental (FWD btw). Most horrifically designed $%^$% I've David> _EVER_ had to work on. (Definitely not "classic") David> You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring, David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+ David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the David> engine+transmission through the bottom. That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to remove an access panel in the wheelwell. paul From lcourtney at mvista.com Tue May 31 08:57:33 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:57:33 -0700 Subject: Freebies In-Reply-To: <428A2A68.5060408@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Pickup only - Sunnyvale California Sparcstation LX - condition unknown 3x CDC Wren drives pulled from Microvax. Unknown condition. Contact me if interested. Thanks, Lee Courtney From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 31 08:54:27 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:54:27 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050531085323.04d529b0@mail> At 07:03 PM 5/28/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> Are they the ones that are the same shape as a tractor PTO shaft? > >Roughly, yes (although I've never worked on a Tractor...). Yes, that's where I've seen it before. This thread also made me look up "Whitford bolt" and "Kunifer". - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 31 09:08:33 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:08:33 -0400 Subject: 11/23 9trk RM03 in Huntsville References: <429BAE99.9040505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17052.28641.849731.692021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> I noticed an RM03 in a ebay posting, so I asked if it was for Al> sale. Here's the reply. Obviously this will only be of interest Al> in pickup range. If someone is serious about this, I'll forward Al> you his email adr. Al> === Al> You asked: "are you going to be selling the CDC 9762 that the Al> generator is sitting on?" Al> Boy... you've opened a can of worms. If you will send me your Al> email address then I will send pictures of my 1st home Al> computer... PDP-11/23 with 9 track tape.. Qbus to Unibus Al> converter to drive the disk as an RM-03 etc... I would hope it's an RM02, not an RM03 -- since RM03s are too fast for Unibus. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue May 31 09:16:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:16:38 -0400 Subject: Need Digital VT102 and Hewlett-Packard A1099B Keyboards References: <20050528134608.42254.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4298AAFC.nailN9M11SPV4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <17052.25508.166857.537069@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17052.29126.886887.378445@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: >>>>> "shoppa" == shoppa classiccmp writes: >>> I need a VT102 keyboard (the original DEC one) shoppa> Didn't all the VT1xx use the same keyboard, the one with the shoppa> stereo phone plug on the end? shoppa> That makes it easier, you just need any VT100-type keybaord. Paul> No. Oops, somehow I misread VT1xx to be "VT2xx". Nevermind... paul From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 31 09:23:35 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:23:35 -0500 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: <429B8187.7040905@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050531091730.051153c8@mail> At 05:13 PM 5/30/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >My medicine cabinet contains (from memory): >[...] > >What does this have to do with anything? Nothing. Obviously it means you don't have a decent set of spares for all those bathroom tools. Me, I'm just trying to figure out why I have seven of the screwdrivers I don't want at the moment and why I can't find the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I should really own for home / office / car. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 31 09:27:32 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:27:32 -0500 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429BA3EE.nail7B719OZ8G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <429BA3EE.nail7B719OZ8G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050531092437.05174a78@mail> At 06:38 PM 5/30/2005, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> toiletries don't > >Those dental mirrors come in real handy for lots of mechanical jobs. >And I've put some floss to a few creative uses, too :-) Caveman! My dentist gave me his old intra-oral camera system, so now I have an illuminated NTSC camera I can stick into small crevices. I also love my Zeiss stereo surgical scope for fine detail work, with the nice counter-balanced multi-jointed arm and stand. At 07:45 PM 5/30/2005, r.stricklin wrote: >Until you bark your knuckles and need some bactine and a band-aid. Computer repair will not succeed without blood sacrifice! Bactine? What, we have to use classic healthcare when our classic computers make us bleed? Get some fresh triple antibiotic! - John From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue May 31 10:13:45 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:13:45 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines available Message-ID: I have the following issues of BYTE Magazine available: 1976: 3-12 1977: 2-12 1978: 1-12 1979: 1-2,4-7,9-12 1980: 1-7,9-12 1981: 1-7,9-12 1982: 1-7,9-12 1983: 1-12 1984: 1-12 1985: 1-2,5-11 1986: 1-12 1987: 1-4,6-12 1988: 1,3-10,12 1989: 1-9 1991: 2-9 In addition, I have a number of special issues like the IBM special issues. I have no idea what if anything these are worth. Mostly, I'm just trying to avoid throwing them in the trash. Of course, I'd love to trade them for interesting stuff. What would I like? I'm mostly interested in a working SBC6120 system (front panel not necessary). Another thing I've been looking for is a copy of the Bliss-32 reference manual. I used Bliss when I worked for DEC and liked some aspects of it but haven't been able to find a manual. They are located in southern New Hampshire. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue May 31 10:34:37 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: data stored in moving rust, was Re: Remembering RAMAC In-Reply-To: <4bddc0524830d27afd87d255e0bf5df7@norbionics.com> References: <17045.59175.495506.681021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17045.64191.700924.813637@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050526235011.F1488@localhost> <60686.71.129.198.222.1117182593.squirrel@71.129.198.222> <4bddc0524830d27afd87d255e0bf5df7@norbionics.com> Message-ID: > > How to make this work when the magnetic coating was on a rigid surface was > far from obvious. Magnetic drum assemblies were extremely tricky to adjust. > There was a reason why they used fixed heads - the principle of moving along > the drum axis had been known since Edison made the phonograph. The rason why > drum storage used fixed heads was that nobody had figured out how to make > flying heads yet, so they needed a very rigid assembly where you could use > screws to make micrometer adjustments. > > -- > -bv > At least some drums of the 60's (and later) had flying heads... I have a add for one from 1963 (Bryant I think) that has a neat scheme for loading the heads. The drum is tapered and has a certrifugal mechanism that lifts the tapered drum into flying proximity to the heads when up to speed. Peter Wallace From jdbryan at acm.org Tue May 31 10:57:36 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:57:36 -0400 Subject: Need NS MM5740AAE/N keyboard encoder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200505311557.j4VFvcAj024921@mail.bcpl.net> On 28 May 2005 at 0:03, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I can't find any data for this chip. [...] Anyone got data? I have a National databook that has the truth tables for both the AAC and AAE parts, if you want to implement a remapper. -- Dave From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 31 11:42:33 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply Message-ID: <200505311642.JAA01680@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Fri, 27 May 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > >> >Urg! Thanks for the voltage specs but what about polarity? ;) >> > >> Well looking high and low over the adapter. I could not find ANY >> markings that would show the tip polarity. it might be on the jack inlet >> on the computer itself, which I don't have in front of me. For some >> reason I always though the tip polarity was on the inlet itself or was >> indicated by the color of the tip (or was that the size indicator?) . > >Didn't see any markings on the computer itself. > >> It's too late and past my bedtime for me to give cognizant answers :-) > >Can you just put a voltmeter to it in the morning and let me know? >Thanks! > Hi Sellam Finding the polarity is usually easy. Most setups connect the ground directly to the power leads. The positive lead would go through regulators and parts to the ground. So, unless your machine has a direct short, an ohmmeter should be all that is needed to determine the negative lead. Later Dwight From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue May 31 12:43:42 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:43:42 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The magazines are gone. Thanks for all of the interest! On May 31, 2005, at 11:13 AM, David Betz wrote: > I have the following issues of BYTE Magazine available: > > 1976: 3-12 > 1977: 2-12 > 1978: 1-12 > 1979: 1-2,4-7,9-12 > 1980: 1-7,9-12 > 1981: 1-7,9-12 > 1982: 1-7,9-12 > 1983: 1-12 > 1984: 1-12 > 1985: 1-2,5-11 > 1986: 1-12 > 1987: 1-4,6-12 > 1988: 1,3-10,12 > 1989: 1-9 > 1991: 2-9 > > In addition, I have a number of special issues like the IBM special > issues. > > I have no idea what if anything these are worth. Mostly, I'm just > trying to avoid throwing them in the trash. Of course, I'd love to > trade them for interesting stuff. What would I like? I'm mostly > interested in a working SBC6120 system (front panel not necessary). > Another thing I've been looking for is a copy of the Bliss-32 > reference manual. I used Bliss when I worked for DEC and liked some > aspects of it but haven't been able to find a manual. > > They are located in southern New Hampshire. > From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue May 31 12:50:19 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:50:19 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines available Message-ID: I appreciate it. Thanks. ============================= Richard A. Cini, Jr. Director Wachovia Capital Finance 1133 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 W: 212-545-4402 F: 212-545-4589 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: BYTE Magazines available The magazines are gone. Thanks for all of the interest! On May 31, 2005, at 11:13 AM, David Betz wrote: > I have the following issues of BYTE Magazine available: > > 1976: 3-12 > 1977: 2-12 > 1978: 1-12 > 1979: 1-2,4-7,9-12 > 1980: 1-7,9-12 > 1981: 1-7,9-12 > 1982: 1-7,9-12 > 1983: 1-12 > 1984: 1-12 > 1985: 1-2,5-11 > 1986: 1-12 > 1987: 1-4,6-12 > 1988: 1,3-10,12 > 1989: 1-9 > 1991: 2-9 > > In addition, I have a number of special issues like the IBM special > issues. > > I have no idea what if anything these are worth. Mostly, I'm just > trying to avoid throwing them in the trash. Of course, I'd love to > trade them for interesting stuff. What would I like? I'm mostly > interested in a working SBC6120 system (front panel not necessary). > Another thing I've been looking for is a copy of the Bliss-32 > reference manual. I used Bliss when I worked for DEC and liked some > aspects of it but haven't been able to find a manual. > > They are located in southern New Hampshire. > From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 12:58:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need specs for IBM PC Convertible power supply In-Reply-To: <200505311642.JAA01680@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> It's too late and past my bedtime for me to give cognizant answers :-) > > > >Can you just put a voltmeter to it in the morning and let me know? > >Thanks! > > > > Hi Sellam > Finding the polarity is usually easy. Most setups > connect the ground directly to the power leads. The > positive lead would go through regulators and parts > to the ground. So, unless your machine has a direct > short, an ohmmeter should be all that is needed > to determine the negative lead. Thanks. Figured it out using this message. Now I'm trying to find a power supply that can fit into the connector hole. The connector is set deep into the case. I got one of these barely working with a 12V supply that could fit but it only blinked on for a split second a few times. Ugh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 31 13:31:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti M-20 PCOS or other OS Message-ID: <200505311831.LAA01740@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "SP" > >Hello. I own one Olivetti M-20 that I'm cleaning and checking. All appears >to go well but the diskette with the PCOS system is damaged. Someone dispose >of one operative copy of PCOS or another OS for this machine ? I would be >agreed for the eternity (uh... perhaps less time, but a lot sure). > >Thanks >Sergio Hi Sergio What type of disk drives does it have? We have the ability to create disk for the 320K drive but haven't had enough experience to do this for the 640K disk. If you have an AT level PC with a 360K drive, you may be able to create the boot disk your self. The PC does need to have a controller that writes FM format. Many of the newer PC didn't support FM since most PC's were only using MFM 360K or newer. The first track on the 340K disk is done in FM ( single density ) while all the rest are done in MFM ( double density ). Most M20's were shipped with memory cards that had 16K DRAMs. The motherboards usually had 128K of 64K chips. With the three memory cards, at 32K each, the normal configuration would be 224K. To run the CPM8000, you'd need to have a minimum of 256K. This would require having a memory card with 64K chips. I've modified my memory cards to use the 64K chips. To bring up CP/M-8000. Still, to make CP/M-8000 disks still requires writing the first track with FM data. PCOS runs fine on the 224K unless you want to run some of the developement tools like PASCAL that requires 384K as a minimum. Their BASIC runs fine in the 224K machines. Look at: ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/olivetti_m20/ There you'll find some images for PCOS and tools to create disks. You can try the tool wrm20.com, that I wrote. If the controller you have is compatable with FM, you should be able to create the boot disk. I'm also told that the images are compatable with tools like 22disk but I've not confirmed this. Look at: http://www.cpm.z80.de/binary.html For the CP/M-8000 stuff. Worst case, I can send a floppy to you in the snail-mail. Anyway, let me know what kind of machine you have, like B&W or color, disk drives and RAM? Later Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue May 31 14:20:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:20:57 -0400 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ed, That's a NICE haul! The HP 9122 suffers from the usual HP double sided drive problem of the mechanism sticking and not lifting the top head suffiently to get the disk in and out without damaging the head. Definitely check it before trying to install or remove a disk or you'll most likely ruin the drive. See the archives for more info on this. The 9121s are good rugged, reliable drives but I would clean the heads before trying to use them. The HP-85s have the usual HP tape drive problem, gooy drive rollers. Again, see the archives. Other than that they're almost rock solid, very reliable machines. They DO support the HP 9121 drives so I advise using those and forgetting the tape drives. I'm not sure but I don't think the HP-86s uses NTSC video. They do work with the HP 82912 and 82913 monitors. Joe At 12:16 AM 5/27/05 +0100, you wrote: >Hi list, > >I pulled the following from a skip (or dumpster as you North Americans >would have it!): > >http://img163.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp854qg.jpg (5 x HP85 computers) >http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp86b4wy.jpg (3 x HP86B computers) >http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hpdrives8zh.jpg (5 x HP9121 dual >drives, 1 x HP9122 dual drive) > >Is there anything specific to these machines I should check (aside >from the obligatory stuff-from-a-dumpster drying-out period) before >trying to power them on? I haven't got a monitor that will do the NTSC >composite from the HP86Bs at the moment so I can't really try those, >but I can try the HP85s and the drives if it's OK to. > >Thanks, > >Ed. > > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue May 31 14:40:45 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:40:45 +0100 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive References: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <015101c55999$683e2a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <03a701c56618$e20a47e0$0200a8c0@geoff> I think you should all take heart from the fact that the collection is still there. Certainly the way to go is along the lines of " Please don't lose all of Don's work ". I recall quite a few years ago a friend of mine had a grandfather who was the keeper of an old archive of herbal remedies in a village quite a way to the north. The whole farming community used to call around with their ills and he would fix them up with a remedy. The archive consisted of lots of tiny "scrolls" of paper kept in a chest of drawers - each drawer having numerous little compartments - one for each little scroll of paper. When he died his wife went to the archive and threw the lot on the fire. They never knew why. Tread softly. Geoff. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue May 31 15:05:06 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:05:06 +0100 Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: <429B8187.7040905@vzavenue.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050531091730.051153c8@mail> Message-ID: <042701c5661c$16d98a00$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault > Me, I'm just trying to figure out why I have seven of the > screwdrivers I don't want at the moment and why I can't find > the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I should > really own for home / office / car. > > - John I just went into my toolbox for a pair of plyers - and they were lying on top !!!! Normally when I want something it's right at the bottom. The laws of physics are unravelling.... The world's going to end - we're all doomed , doomed...... From ericj at speakeasy.org Tue May 31 06:58:22 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 04:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BYTE Magazines available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, David Betz wrote: > Another thing I've been looking for is a copy of the Bliss-32 reference > manual. I used Bliss when I worked for DEC and liked some aspects of it > but haven't been able to find a manual. I *thought* I saw the Bliss manuals on one of the VMS freeware cds. I'll check later. Or did you mean hardcopy? Regards, -- Eric Josephson From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 31 15:24:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:24:11 -0500 Subject: looking for early (interesting) PCs In-Reply-To: <20050529010911.22363.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050529010911.22363.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <429CC7EB.7060907@oldskool.org> I cannot ship, but if you're in the Chicagoland area you can have for free a PS/2 Model 25 and/or Panasonic Sr. Partner, both working but in need of some care. The PS/2 model 25's internal monitor has a lack of red shift, and the Sr. Partner tends to lock up after a few hours of heavy use (ie playing a game) but otherwise both have sound innards (and the model 25 has a 20MB drive). I'm keeping my other "interesting" early PCs (PCjrs, Tandy 1000s, and AT&T PC 6300 (olivetti M24)) unless an appropriate offer is made :-) Chris M wrote: > to name a few: Mindset PC, HP Vectra (8086 or 286), > Televideo Personal-Mini and PM/286, Canon AS-100 and > AS-200, Xerox 8/16, NEC APC, Victor 9000, etc. I > concentrate on the semi-compatibles. Also looking for > SOFTWARE, IBM compatible and semi-compatible versions > alike. I have been looking for an early version of > Microsoft Fortran for as long as I can remember. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue May 31 15:24:24 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:24:24 -0400 Subject: BYTE Magazines available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <810514caaf3065efb1ad8db018c6a2d4@xlisper.mv.com> I was looking for hard copy. Thanks for the pointer though. If I can't find hard copy, it will probably come in handy. David On May 31, 2005, at 7:58 AM, Eric Josephson wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2005, David Betz wrote: > >> Another thing I've been looking for is a copy of the Bliss-32 >> reference >> manual. I used Bliss when I worked for DEC and liked some aspects of >> it >> but haven't been able to find a manual. > > I *thought* I saw the Bliss manuals on one of the VMS freeware cds. > I'll check later. Or did you mean hardcopy? > > Regards, > > -- > Eric Josephson > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 31 15:31:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:31:08 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429CC98C.8010908@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult" screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular. I would at least save the screws, with a note or something. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 31 15:30:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <50809.71.129.198.222.1117571451.squirrel@71.129.198.222> Joe wrote: > I'm not sure but I don't think the HP-86s uses NTSC video. It's not NTSC, but only because it's not color. It's either at or near the RS170 standard video scan rates (60 Hz vertical, 15750 Hz horizontal), so it works fine with any usual composite video monitor. > They do work with the HP 82912 and 82913 monitors. Which are standard scan rate monitors. Eric From spedraja at ono.com Tue May 31 15:52:50 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:52:50 +0200 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive References: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><015101c55999$683e2a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <03a701c56618$e20a47e0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <009c01c56622$b5b0ef00$1502a8c0@ACER> > When he died his wife went to the archive and threw the lot on the fire. > They never knew why. > Tread softly. Sure. Many times forgot the personal side of one person in front of her/his public side. Usually we don't know nothing about the relations with her/his most near persons. And logically we don't know about this persons and the way he conduct themselves... what's important or not for them... or how one lost affects themselves, and even if they can want in some moment to destroy any reference of the beloved person to forgot completely any shadow of the person in his environment, leaving only something really important for the vincule between them. I'm essentially with Geoff... If you want to see Don's Archive keep and safe, take care with the way you manage this matter. And for good or bad, today the owner of the Archive is her. Regards Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Tue May 31 15:54:25 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:54:25 +0200 Subject: Olivetti M-20 PCOS or other OS References: <200505311831.LAA01740@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c56622$edeef970$1502a8c0@ACER> Thanks, Dwight. I saw the problem with the floppy just know with one Pentium I have... I am rescuing my XT-286 from the basement to my home to manage the diskettes. Regards Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: Re: Olivetti M-20 PCOS or other OS > > >From: "SP" > > > >Hello. I own one Olivetti M-20 that I'm cleaning and checking. All appears > >to go well but the diskette with the PCOS system is damaged. Someone dispose > >of one operative copy of PCOS or another OS for this machine ? I would be > >agreed for the eternity (uh... perhaps less time, but a lot sure). > > > >Thanks > >Sergio > > Hi Sergio > What type of disk drives does it have? We have the ability > to create disk for the 320K drive but haven't had enough > experience to do this for the 640K disk. > If you have an AT level PC with a 360K drive, you may > be able to create the boot disk your self. The PC does > need to have a controller that writes FM format. Many > of the newer PC didn't support FM since most PC's > were only using MFM 360K or newer. > The first track on the 340K disk is done in FM ( single > density ) while all the rest are done in MFM ( double > density ). > Most M20's were shipped with memory cards that had > 16K DRAMs. The motherboards usually had 128K of 64K > chips. With the three memory cards, at 32K each, the > normal configuration would be 224K. To run the CPM8000, > you'd need to have a minimum of 256K. This would require > having a memory card with 64K chips. I've modified > my memory cards to use the 64K chips. To bring up > CP/M-8000. Still, to make CP/M-8000 disks still requires > writing the first track with FM data. > PCOS runs fine on the 224K unless you want to run > some of the developement tools like PASCAL that > requires 384K as a minimum. Their BASIC runs fine in > the 224K machines. > Look at: > > ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/olivetti_m20/ > > There you'll find some images for PCOS and tools to create > disks. You can try the tool wrm20.com, that I wrote. > If the controller you have is compatable with FM, you > should be able to create the boot disk. I'm also > told that the images are compatable with tools like > 22disk but I've not confirmed this. > Look at: > > http://www.cpm.z80.de/binary.html > > For the CP/M-8000 stuff. > > Worst case, I can send a floppy to you in the snail-mail. > Anyway, let me know what kind of machine you have, > like B&W or color, disk drives and RAM? > Later > Dwight > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 16:10:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:10:40 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429CC98C.8010908@oldskool.org> References: <429CC98C.8010908@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1117573840.15123.82.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 15:31 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. > > I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult" > screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts > with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular. On the other hand, it could be historically significant that awkward screws were replaced during the machine's lifetime in order to allow people in ;-) Interesting history prog on TV here the other day where they were restoring some house (18th century I believe); rather than restoring back to how it was when it was built, they restored it back to as-found (but ensuring that it would survive for another few hundred years) - that included all the modifications that owners had added over time, period repairs that had been done, and even period bodge-work that had been carried out. Telling the story of how the place was actually used over time was more important (and interesting) than being able to show how it looked when it was first built. I suppose there's a parallel can be drawn with old computers, *whilst sufficient numbers in as-new condition exist*. Actually even then, maybe that only applies to commodity machines - low-volume machines are probably equally interesting both in original form and with any modifications that owners may have made over the years. I'm sort of sitting on the fence on that one; I'm not sure whether I agree or not. But it's certainly food for thought, and 5155's are going to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to Osbornes I think; I don't want to see another one of those damn things in my life!). > I would at least save the screws, with a note or something. Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage the case etc. :-) It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in cases or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no problem with, providing there's sufficient knowledge out there to put things back as they were (and any parts needed are easy to get hold of). cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 16:36:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117573840.15123.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose there's a parallel can be drawn with old computers, *whilst > sufficient numbers in as-new condition exist*. Actually even then, maybe > that only applies to commodity machines - low-volume machines are > probably equally interesting both in original form and with any > modifications that owners may have made over the years. A valid point. However, as the archivist, should you be altering the object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as long as you fully document what you've done (and perhaps why) and keep the original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued) so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when needed. > Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of > years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage the > case etc. :-) Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere inside the case. Standard archival procedure. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 31 17:07:01 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200505312210.SAA16291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of >> years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage >> the case etc. :-) > Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere > inside the case. Standard archival procedure. I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less likely to do damage, even if the machine is under power at the time. But yes, using something other than adhesive to hold it in place is a very good idea. Even on bare interior metal, leaving adhesive gunk (which tape tends to do after a decade or two) is unpleasant. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordon at gjcp.net Tue May 31 17:14:23 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:14:23 +0100 Subject: Tools In-Reply-To: <17052.27774.795998.465335@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net> <429A5E2C.8080607@woh.rr.com> <17052.27774.795998.465335@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <429CE1BF.5050209@gjcp.net> Paul Koning wrote: > David> You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring, > David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+ > David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the > David> engine+transmission through the bottom. > > That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing > belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to > remove an access panel in the wheelwell. That's how you do the timing belts in most transverse-engined cars. You won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the timing marks are correctly aligned. Gordon. From Tim at rikers.org Tue May 31 17:37:38 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:37:38 -0500 Subject: Chicago: Cipher M990 9-track Pertec 1600/3200/6250 Message-ID: <429CE732.8030601@Rikers.org> eBay find, not the seller or anything: listed at $20 for pickup only in Chicago area. I'd recommend you ask him for the PC Pertec controller and cables which he should have if it was used on a win95 pc. I emailed him and confirmed that it does not have the scsi interface option. I'd sure like one if someone has one. ;-) CSC100 is the part number. Again, he does *not* have one on this drive. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 16:55:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:55:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <20050530162125.R95956@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 30, 5 04:57:34 pm Message-ID: > We hardly ever see Facom around here. Fortunately the local tool shop keeps most of the range in stock... > > I've never nneded anything over 3/4" drive to work on a car. The largest > > torque wrench we have here has a 3/4" drive and goes up to 350lb.ft, so I > > guess that's strong enough :-) > > That'll do nicely for assembly. Agreed > I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs > to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet > to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. I have a good 3/4" tommy bar (what you call a breaker bar, I guess). I've once had to put a length of spediframe on the end of that, then stand on the end (and I am not exactly small). The bar and socket didn't mind at all. I would never do that to a torque wrench, of course. > > > Don't forget the odd sizes. Very few UK spanner sets include 11/32", but > I have a number of tools that I've rarely had need of. But once is > enough. Particurlarly when that 'once' is on a Sunday afternoon and you need the > [Classic-computer tools] > If others have been in it before, then add: [...] > BIG dead-blow mallet (only for use on Packard-Bell, etc.) And to use on the luser who was there before you... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 16:56:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:56:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 30, 5 05:17:56 pm Message-ID: > > Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. > > toiletries don't. > > My basic hygiene disagrees with you. I didn't say that personal hygiene wasn't important, only that it has nothing to do with classic computing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 16:57:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:57:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "r.stricklin" at May 30, 5 05:45:32 pm Message-ID: > > > On May 30, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. > > toiletries don't. [...] > Citroen repair is OT. It's no huge thing, just please don't give us > this shaky rationalization. The list of tools in question was actually those I was recomending for classic computer repair (as a starting point for a toolkit). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:10:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:10:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429C0BB9.5070300@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at May 31, 5 08:01:13 am Message-ID: [System Zero screws] > Are those the ones that are much flatter than a reverse Torx, but with > very thin splines and tapered so that pliers, moleys and the like just > slide off? Yes. Often used for minor security things, like CCTV cameras in public places since most people don't have the tools to remove them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 16:46:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:46:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at May 27, 5 00:16:34 am Message-ID: > > Hi list, > > I pulled the following from a skip (or dumpster as you North Americans > would have it!): > > http://img163.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp854qg.jpg (5 x HP85 computers) > http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hp86b4wy.jpg (3 x HP86B computers) > http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=hpdrives8zh.jpg (5 x HP9121 dual > drives, 1 x HP9122 dual drive) Nice toys! > > Is there anything specific to these machines I should check (aside > from the obligatory stuff-from-a-dumpster drying-out period) before > trying to power them on? I haven't got a monitor that will do the NTSC Yes! Firstly, sources of hardware info : The HP85A 'Assembly Level Service Manual' (which does contain scheamtics) is on the MoHPC CD-ROM set. A reverse-engineered HP86B schematic (only) is on the HPCC schematics CD-ROM. I have also enocuntered an HP86B service manual on a web site somewhere. I don't know of a source of the 9121/9122 scheamtics. I have the HP service docs for the former, it contains no full schematics. Schematics for the double-sided drive (both the FC9 and FC16 board versions) are on the HPCC schematics CD-ROM somewhere. The 9121 may well appear on a future version of the HPCC CD-ROM, but I don't have a 9122... Now for what you should do.... I would really recomend checking the PSUs without the logic connected. In my experience these supplies are fine with no load. In the case of the 86B, the PSU is a separate PCB linked to the logic board by a cable. Pinouts are in the HPCC schematic, or I can e-mail them to you. Getting inside the 86B is easy, it's just the #1 pozidriv screws on the bottom. I think you can get to the PSU without removing the screening cover over the logic, but anyway it's all pretty obvious. The HP85 PSU is on the PSU/printer board. That's the board on the left side of the printer module, between the printer and the video monitor. It's not so easy to get to!. To rrmove the cover, pull off the tape drive eject bar, then remove the screws from the bottom, then lift off the case. The keyboard is hinged at the front, held down by 2 screws at the back, take those out. To get to the PSU it's best to remove the video section. There are 2 of those infernl tapewires linking it to the CPU board (under the keyboard). Unplug those, disconnect the brightness pot (3 pin connector), remove 2 screws and loosen the third, and take out the video chassis. Then disconnect the PSU/printer PCB from the logic board (2 more similar tapewires), remove the printer control IC (the 40 pin chip on the PSU/printer board) and put it in conductive foam. Now you can test the PSU without risk of damaging irreplaceable custom ICs. When you reassemble the machine make sure you re-connect the brightness pot connector. The monitor circuit is somewhat unconventional in that the brightness control varies one of the CRT anode voltages (not the grid bias). With the pot disconnected, there's no discharge path for the 800V supply smoothing capacitor, which will nicely zap you when you do try to reconnect the pot. The service manual (see above) has a procedure for discharging the capacitor if you think it's necessary. The 9121 PSU is on the same board as the logic, so AFAIK you can't test it without the logic connected :-(. It's a somewhat odd supply anyway -- the +5 and +12V rails come from the mains transformer via linear regulators, a -ve bias supply for the FDC chip comes from a diode/capacitor chain clocked from a logic-level clock. Oh, and the fan is a capacitor-run motor run off the transformer secondary (the run capacitor is on the logic board). Now for the thing you _must_ do. The 9122 disk drive mechanisms have a nasty problem. If the grease on the eject mechanism goes sticky (and it does), said mechanism doesn't latch up properly. The result is that the upper head catches in the disk shutter when you try to eject a disk. And the head gets ripped off. Then you're looking for a new head assembly!. The single-sided mechanisms in the 9121 don't have quite the same problem (only the felt pressure pad gets caught), but it doesn't hurt to regrease those as well. The procedure for doing it is roughly as follows. Remove the top cover from the 9122, take out the screws holding the drives in place, unplug the cables and take the drives out. Remove any remaining screws/brackets from the mouting holes (I don't think this applies to ther 9122) Take out the 1 screw on the back and take off the drive cover. Take out the 3 screws on the bottom and remove the screening plate over the logic PCB. Free the stepper motor wiring at the back, and ease off the logic board. Unplug all the connectors from the board and set the board aside (in an anti-static bage). Remove the 2 scres from the bottom near the front edge of the drive chassis. These hold the front panel in place which then comes off complete with the eject button and spring. Back on top, remove the eject damper at the rear left corner (1 screw). Remove the 2 screws the fix the head load solenoid bracket to the chassis, the rear one holds the earth tag. Remove this bracket, feeding the wires through the chassis. Put a clean lens tissue or similar between the heads. Underneath again, remove the 4 screws near the side of the drive chassis. The disk holder assembly is now free. Take it off. Take off the E-circlips from the sides of the disk holder assmebly. Take it apart, noting the positions of the spacers, etc. Note that the spacers often are so well stuck to the shafts that they appear to be part of the shaft. They're not. Remove the springs from the levers on the side, clean all the parts with propan-2-ol and make sure all the levers turn freely. Very freely. Then all you have to do is put it together again. I think the 9121 drives are much the same. This may sould like a lot of work (it acutally takes about 30 minutes per drive), but it sure beats having to align a replacement head assembly, even if you can get one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:24:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:24:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117543249.15141.38.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 31, 5 12:40:49 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 08:54 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Or lots of cheap crappy spanners that can be heated up and bent > > been there, done that. I have ended up making all sorts of tools for car > work - just don't think I'd be able to make a set of bristol spline > keys... Well, if you can't make them, buy them :-) > > > > That'll do nicely for assembly. > > > I have encountered VW bus rear axle nuts that needed WELL over 1000 ft lbs > > > to break loose. I would never subject a torque wrench or even a ratchet > > > to that kind of force. The Craftsman 3/4" breaker bar just bends. > > Ouch. Not often I've ever needed more than about 150lb/ft on a car, > exception being removing cylinder head studs that are corroded into The driveshaft nuts on modern FWD cars are nearly always at least as tight as that. The torque wrench I already had goes up to 110lb.ft, so I got the enxt sensible one up from that. Probably overkill, but... > engine blocks. I've known 1940's machinery that's been in that sort of > state though (and heating the right bits with a gas torch has been the > only way to loosen them up) Yes, but you can't heat things like driveshaft nuts without ruining the bearings, CV joints, etc. > > Hmm, I had to get one of those, can't even remember why now though. I > have a feeling 15/32" isn't that common either. Probably not, but I've not needed that one yet :-) The 11/32, as I said, was for a specific job on the HP9810 calculator. It was also needed for much the same job on the 9830. > Regarding system zero screws, if they're what I think they are then I > have come across them before - think it was in an old Sun disk unit, but > I'm not certain. A decent pair of pliers with no slop in the joint makes > short work of them though. The Ferret makes life interesting by putting the screws inside rubber feet so you can't grab them with pliers (these are the main PCB mouting screws, BTW, the feet are entirely inside the machine, only there to prevent you using pliers). I suppose you could tear the feet off, but I really would rather keep the machine original (and thus get the right tool from RS). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:28:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:28:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050531091730.051153c8@mail> from "John Foust" at May 31, 5 09:23:35 am Message-ID: > the one I want. Or how many full sets of tools I should > really own for home / office / car. I learnt years ago the benefits of a toolkit upstairs, to save going down and up again when I need to tighten a door handle, or something :-) I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen keys) upstairs, my full computer-repair kit downstairs, and the car repair tools in the garage. There's some overlap between the last 2, but if I'm say, rebuilding a teleprinter motor I will hapily go out to the garage to get the 3-legged puller and a spanner to fit it. I don't duplicate those in the computer toolkit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:32:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:32:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050531152057.009f9d20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at May 31, 5 03:20:57 pm Message-ID: > those and forgetting the tape drives. I'm not sure but I don't think the > HP-86s uses NTSC video. They do work with the HP 82912 and 82913 monitors. If they don't, it's something pretty darn close. To the extent that my little 'bench' NEC mono monitor (which will lock to RS-170 or UK TV video if you twaek the hold controls) will work with them (and for that matter with the 9915). and that the HP monitor that came with one of my HP86Bs (this is clearly also an NEC chassis inside) will work with the output from a PC CGA card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:35:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:35:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <429CC98C.8010908@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 31, 5 03:31:08 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. > > I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult" > screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts > with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular. YEs, but then again normal users are not expected to go _inside_ the PSU even of a modern PC... > > I would at least save the screws, with a note or something. Small parts, and notes, get lost. Since the right tool is available, and not ridiculously expensive, you should do the Right Thing and put the screws back in place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:38:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:38:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117573840.15123.82.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at May 31, 5 09:10:40 pm Message-ID: > agree or not. But it's certainly food for thought, and 5155's are going > to be common as muck for a long time to come (second only to Osbornes I > think; I don't want to see another one of those damn things in my > life!). Actually. I've mever seen an Osbourne... The only portables I have of that sort of size are the IBM 5155 and the HP IPC. > It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in cases > or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:45:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:45:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <200505312210.SAA16291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at May 31, 5 06:07:01 pm Message-ID: > > >> Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of > >> years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage > >> the case etc. :-) > > Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere > > inside the case. Standard archival procedure. > > I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably > conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a > plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less But some plastics degrade and turn brittle with time (and I suspect those used for pill bottles do, since said bottles are not required to have a long life). Again your screws will fall out and find the worst possible points to short-coricot. If it was a particularly rare or significant machine, I might to that with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't replace anything I didn't have to replace. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 17:47:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:47:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 02:36:14 pm Message-ID: > A valid point. However, as the archivist, should you be altering the > object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as This is exactly my point. You _don't_ make unnecessary modifications. > long as you fully document what you've done (and perhaps why) and keep the > original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued) > so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when > needed. Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the original holes. -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 18:08:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:08:59 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: <200505312210.SAA16291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001101c56635$bdd9e200$aa3cd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:07 PM >>> Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of >>> years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage >>> the case etc. :-) >> Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere >> inside the case. Standard archival procedure. > > I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably > conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a > plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less > likely to do damage, even if the machine is under power at the time. > > But yes, using something other than adhesive to hold it in place is a > very good idea. Even on bare interior metal, leaving adhesive gunk > (which tape tends to do after a decade or two) is unpleasant. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Rather than use string that can deteriorate try nylon ties. More importantly replace the original screws so they don't have a chance to destroy what you're trying to save. As has been pointed out repeatedly the right tools are cheap and available through a variety of sources. Anyone working on anything that has value should value it enough to do it right. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 18:11:00 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:11:00 -0500 Subject: Tools References: <4298E9CD.2090802@gjcp.net> <20050529154128.G81096@shell.lmi.net><429A5E2C.8080607@woh.rr.com><17052.27774.795998.465335@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <429CE1BF.5050209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001601c56636$064aa6f0$aa3cd7d1@randy> From: "Gordon JC Pearce" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:14 PM > Paul Koning wrote: > >> David> You want to replace head gaskets, and a busted valve spring, >> David> to do it by the book you need not one, but TWO 100$+ >> David> specialized tools, and you get to remove the >> David> engine+transmission through the bottom. >> >> That doesn't seem unusual anymore. We had a Saab 9000 in which timing >> belt replacement involves first removing the front right wheel, to >> remove an access panel in the wheelwell. > > That's how you do the timing belts in most transverse-engined cars. You > won't get at the bottom pulley otherwise, and you need to make sure the > timing marks are correctly aligned. > > Gordon. All you have to do is remove the number one spark-plug and insert a plastic straw, when you turn the crank-shaft you can easily tell when you are at TDC. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue May 31 18:13:31 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:13:31 -0500 Subject: I-Bus SBC and Floppy drives Message-ID: <429CEF9B.9000805@mdrconsult.com> I have an I-Bus "Shark" model PICMG[0] processor board. This board takes a Pentium 90 or 100MHz processor, has 4 SIMM slots, and has IDE and floppy controller on the card. May or may not be ten years old, and is definitely not unique enough to be on-topic. However, I also noticed something in the BIOS I've *never* seen on an x86 system, including the rest of my PICMG processors. This board supports four floppy drives, 360K 5.25" to 2.88MB 3.5". My question is, does anyone know of any other post-286 PeeCee systems that support 4 drives without a CompatiCard or CatWeasel? Doc [0] PICMG is almost unknown in the desktop world, but it's a backplane setup used in industrial and telco environments. As far as I know, it's strictly x86. From oldbear at arctos.com Tue May 31 18:14:03 2005 From: oldbear at arctos.com (The Old Bear) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:14:03 -0400 Subject: fwd: Offer of DEC LQP-02 in Waltham, Mass. Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050531191054.00b01100@arctos.com> Forwarded to cctech list... > Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) > From: LOIS PETERSON > Subject: OFFER: DEC printer model LQP02 Waltham > > We again OFFER a rare Digital Equpment Corporation > LQP02 wide-carriage daisy-wheel printer. > > If interested, please send your telephone number or > other quick-contact information. > > Lois & Roland Peterson > Waltham, Massachusetts From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 18:24:16 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:24:16 -0500 Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive References: <200505151852.j4FIqBHI026746@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><015101c55999$683e2a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06><03a701c56618$e20a47e0$0200a8c0@geoff> <009c01c56622$b5b0ef00$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <002501c56637$e0747490$aa3cd7d1@randy> From: "SP" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:52 PM >> When he died his wife went to the archive and threw the lot on the fire. >> They never knew why. >> Tread softly. > > Sure. Many times forgot the personal side of one person in front of > her/his > public side. Usually we don't know nothing about the relations with > her/his > most near persons. And logically we don't know about this persons and the > way he conduct themselves... what's important or not for them... or how > one > lost affects themselves, and even if they can want in some moment to > destroy > any reference of the beloved person to forgot completely any shadow of the > person in his environment, leaving only something really important for the > vincule between them. > > I'm essentially with Geoff... If you want to see Don's Archive keep and > safe, take care with the way you manage this matter. And for good or bad, > today the owner of the Archive is her. > > Regards > Sergio I've never considered "Don's archive" as personal property. Don always listed it as the DynaSig archive and it was made up of public contributions. That said Don's wife has possession of the archive and must be dealt with properly. Possession is not to be confused with ownership. I have an archive, most of it was donated by others to be shared. I own the website it is posted on, I believe I have control if anyone mirrors it. I don't believe I have any control if people take the data and redistribute it without the little HTML code that I use as a presentation. For the record I don't care if anyone mirrors my info or downloads it and organizes it as they see fit. Another archive that I like and do believe in supporting is Herb Johnson's private archive. He controls his and pays for much of the material he archives. At least some of the material he archives must come from donations, these donations are not public but private. Herb makes his archive available to those that need it and charges a nominal fee. In truth the only difference in public versus private archive is in the mind of the people. Since Don always advertised his archive as a public archive the fact he charged a nominal fee for the material, postage, and effort it was still a public archive. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:27:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <200505312210.SAA16291@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, der Mouse wrote: > >> Ensuring that the ink on the note isn't going to fade in a matter of > >> years, or any tape used isn't going to cause stains that will damage > >> the case etc. :-) > > Don't use tape. Use a paper tag with a bit of string tied somewhere > > inside the case. Standard archival procedure. > > I wouldn't trust a paper bag; it'll rip and dump the (probably > conductive) screws all over the board at the worst moment. I'd use a > plastic pill bottle, probably; if that comes loose, it is much less > likely to do damage, even if the machine is under power at the time. Ok, I should've been more specific: use an archival baggie. A plastic pill bottle will out-gas and eventually become brittle and leave a little mess (and drop the screws). Granted, this will take a fairly significant period of time. An archival storage pouch would be better, perhaps one made of cloth. > But yes, using something other than adhesive to hold it in place is a > very good idea. Even on bare interior metal, leaving adhesive gunk > (which tape tends to do after a decade or two) is unpleasant. And might in fact etch the metal. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 18:30:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:30:50 +0000 Subject: fwd: Offer of DEC LQP-02 in Waltham, Mass. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050531191054.00b01100@arctos.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20050531191054.00b01100@arctos.com> Message-ID: <1117582250.15123.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:14 -0400, The Old Bear wrote: > Forwarded to cctech list... > > > Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) > > From: LOIS PETERSON > > Subject: OFFER: DEC printer model LQP02 Waltham > > > > We again OFFER a rare Digital Equpment Corporation > > LQP02 wide-carriage daisy-wheel printer. > > Rare? I spent years trying to give away one of those things. I did, last summer, then the person who took it spent the remainder of the time trying to give it away too :-) From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:30:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Err, the tools actually do have some relevance to classic computing. > > > toiletries don't. > > > > My basic hygiene disagrees with you. > > I didn't say that personal hygiene wasn't important, only that it has > nothing to do with classic computing. Right, and niether do your silly discussions about mechanics tools and car repair (notwithstanding the painfully contrived "relevance" you tried to assign them). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 31 18:35:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Sofware Archive Message-ID: <200505312335.QAA01902@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >I've never considered "Don's archive" as personal property. Don always >listed it as the DynaSig archive and it was made up of public contributions. > Hi It isn't a legal question, it is a physical question. She has the archives and may do anything she wishes. Not much one can do. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:36:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > My view has alayws been to keep the machine as original as possible. > > > > I have to agree here -- it is historically significant that more "difficult" > > screws were used *intentionally* to keep regular users out. That contrasts > > with PCs of today, where even the power supply is modular. > > YEs, but then again normal users are not expected to go _inside_ the PSU > even of a modern PC... > > > > > I would at least save the screws, with a note or something. > > Small parts, and notes, get lost. Since the right tool is available, and > not ridiculously expensive, you should do the Right Thing and put the > screws back in place. You previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box. Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all, someone in the future might think IBM included this tool in all 5155's, which would then raise a riddle for them to solve: why would IBM go through the trouble of using non-standard screws to secure an enclosure that they didn't want the end user to open if they included the tool to open it anyway? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:39:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in cases > > or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no > > But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over > the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this. Tony, I'm calling you out: this is utter and complete bullshit. You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws is permanently altering a machine's make-up? Please tell me you're joking. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:51:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > If it was a particularly rare or significant machine, I might to that > with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep > the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't > replace anything I didn't have to replace. What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe (and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't it be easier if someone had just replaced the screws with more standard varieties and kept the originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality bag? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 18:55:51 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:55:51 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <001401c5663c$49e85140$223ed7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:39 PM > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > It's the irreversable stuff I don't like - people cutting holes in >> > cases >> > or tracks on PCBs to modify them etc.; reversible things I have no >> >> But PCB tracks can be easily un-cut -- just solder a piece of wire over >> the break. Wire-wrap wire (stripped, of course) is ideal for this. > > Tony, I'm calling you out: this is utter and complete bullshit. > > You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you > could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws > is permanently altering a machine's make-up? > > Please tell me you're joking. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at the repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 18:55:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > A valid point. However, as the archivist, should you be altering the > > object's historical fabric? Again, I don't see a problem with this, as > > This is exactly my point. You _don't_ make unnecessary modifications. It's reversible, unlike a cut solder trace, which is "reversible" but still causes permanent destruction of the artifact. > > long as you fully document what you've done (and perhaps why) and keep the > > original screws with the unit (or at least properly stored and catalogued) > > so that the machine can be returned to its "original" state if/when > > needed. > > Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still > around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the > original holes. What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected on various machines you own? Are they with the machine? Are they secured to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the first place? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 19:05:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:05:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <002d01c5663d$a9f633d0$223ed7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:51 PM > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> If it was a particularly rare or significant machine, I might to that >> with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep >> the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't >> replace anything I didn't have to replace. > > What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the > manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe > (and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have > lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't it be easier if someone > had just replaced the screws with more standard varieties and kept the > originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality > bag? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] What if electricity eventually becomes obsolete :) Much of what is being saved is becoming obsolete, that is the whole point of saving it as is otherwise we could only save what is being sold in the stores today (we would have to throw out any CP/M computers to start with)! Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue May 31 19:05:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tools Message-ID: <200506010005.RAA01911@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >The Citroen BX Diesel (XUD engine) is even easier. Turn the engine to the >timing position and put 1 M8 bolt through a hole in the camshaft sprocket >(it screws into the cylinder head) and 2 through holes in the injection >pump sprocket (they screw into the block IIRC). Put a timing pin (an >Allen key will do) into the hole behind the starter motor so that it >slips into the hole in the flywheel. Remove the belt, fit a new one, >remove the pin and bolts, turn the engine 2 full turns by hand, then >check you can fit the bolts and pin back again. If so, it's correctly timed. > >-tony > Hi The Rover 2000 had two pins bolted to the engine. One pin held the flywheel while the other held the cam shaft. But then it was a chain and required a lot of disassembly to replace the chain. The main purpose was to hold things while one removed the cam shaft to install adjuster shims for the valve clearance. To make things a little more tricky, the same bolts that held the cam shaft bearings were also the head bolts :( Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:02:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > You previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box. > > Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After all, > > Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the > machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's > provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy > Bristol Spline keys :-) OK, what if that label gets lost? What if the tool gets loose and shorts out several pins or traces, doing damage to the machine the next time it is powered up? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:04:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <001401c5663c$49e85140$223ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at the > repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the > original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced. I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments). That being the case, which would you consider worse? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 19:00:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:00:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 04:55:56 pm Message-ID: > > Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still > > around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the > > original holes. > > What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected They are, of course, in the appropriate service manuals, etc. > on various machines you own? Are they with the machine? Are they secured > to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable > forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it > have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the > first place? Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I _use_ my classic computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g. by replacing the guts with a PC running an emulator). Yes, if I was only interested in preserving the machines, I'd never run them, I'd never change anything. But alas I am interested in using them too. However, as I keep on saying, I still want to do as few modifications as possible. Yes, I will happilly do the 640K mod to a PC/XT, including a 5155 portable. In fact I did this mod to my 5155 (expansion slots are tight, not much software will run in the standard 256K). That's a useful mod. But there is no good reason to change those damn screws! [1] for example, an HP9810 repair. I did eventually get the right IC (and put it in place of this mod), but this got the machine working again: Replacing the 74H52 IC on the memory timing PCB (09810-66522) ------------------------------------------------------------- Well, have you ever tried to get one :-) However, _on this PCB_ it can be replaced by a 74LS51, suitably wired. Remove old IC carefully, in case it's still good. Bend out all pins of a 74LS51 apart from 1, 7, 14. Put this chip in place of the old one. solder 1, 7, 14 to the PCB. Solder wires (wire-wrap wire is ideal) as follows : PCB 2 -> IC 13, IC 12 PCB 3 -> IC 11 PCB 4 -> IC 10 PCB 5 -> IC 9 IC 8 -> IC 2, IC 3, IC 4, IC 5 PCB 8 -> IC 6 mu(26)/ -------|\ | \ +---|\ ALU(0) ----+---| >-----+ | | >----+ | | / | +---|/ | +---|/ | | +---)\ +---)\ | ) >o---- TRegSin ) >o---+---|\ +---)/ mu(25+24/)/----|\ +---)/ | | >----+ | \ | +---|/ T(0)-----------| >------+ | / mu(26)---------|/ -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 19:14:59 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:14:59 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <004801c5663e$f62cbde0$223ed7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:02 PM > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > You previously suggested putting the correct size tool inside the box. >> > Wouldn't this also alter the historical fabric of the machine? After >> > all, >> >> Yes, I suppose it would. OK, if you've going to stick a tool inside the >> machine, put a label on it saying this is not an original IBM part, it's >> provided for the benefit of future repaires who are too brain-dead to buy >> Bristol Spline keys :-) > > OK, what if that label gets lost? What if the tool gets loose and shorts > out several pins or traces, doing damage to the machine the next time it > is powered up? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I think you might have come up with a great idea, don't put anything extra into it at all :) Since you have so many classic systems it's obvious it would make sense to have the tools to work on them in your toolbox :) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:11:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you > > could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws > > is permanently altering a machine's make-up? > > > > Please tell me you're joking. > > No I am not joking... > > A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to > trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back > to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been > done. You're telling me that permanently altering a computer in a museum setting by cutting traces and modifying components is less intrusive than swapping screws? Please explain how this is the case. > It is _not_ obvious that the original screws were, say, Bristol Spline > head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever. It is equally non-obvious that the modification was done contemporarily or prior to the museum taking possession. > My moan from the start is that there is no good reason to replace the > original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's > no good reason to change something, you don't change it. In this case, there was what I would consider a good reason: Jules didn't have a Bristol Spline tool on him and wanted to swap out the screws to something more serviceable for future work. As far as I'm concerned (with the caveats I have expressed) that's reasonable. > When there is a good reason to change something, then I see no problem > with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make > sure said documentation is preserved. I agree. So how do you rationalize the cutting of traces and modifications of parts to make something work to be acceptable but the swapping of screws to make something more practical to work on is unacceptable, given in both cases you fully document the alteration? Your logic does not compute. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 19:05:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:05:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 04:51:30 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > If it was a particularly rare or significant machine, I might to that > > with any components I had to replace (because they'd failed). I'd keep > > the originals with the machine for historical reasons. But I wouldn't > > replace anything I didn't have to replace. > > What if Bristol Spline screws eventually become obsolete and the > manufacturing of the tools ceases? I know: you'll say "I have a lathe > (and know how to use it) and would manufacture one." Sure, we all have Actually, a milling machine and dividing head would be useful, but you can do milling in a small lathe, and, yes, I do have a dividing head. > lathes (and know how to use them). But wouldn't it be easier if someone Well, you could try asking somebody to make you one, or asking somebody if they have the right tool that you could borrow, or... > had just replaced the screws with more standard varieties and kept the > originals with the machine, tied to the inside case in an archival quality > bag? Alternatively, Jules has already proved you can remove these screws with pliers if you have to. Or you could drill them out (they even make LH twist drills for this sort of thing). Or many other ways to get them out if you had to and couldn't get the right tool. The point is to make as few mods as possible _now_. Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in every machine (5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future. What about replacing all UNC screws with metric (after re-tapping all the holes) just in case inch-size spanners and allen keys cease to be available (they're a lot harder to find than Metric in many UK tool shops now). If not, why just replace them on machines you need to repair? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 19:11:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:11:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 05:04:38 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at the > > repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the > > original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced. > > I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by > the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments). > I think that a museum or other true archivist should do only those modifications and replace only those parts necessary to keep the machine operational, and then the replacement parts should be clearly identifyable as such. This would seem to agree with what is done to other mechancial artefacts in museums (e.g. clocks). However I am not an archivist, nor do I claim to be one (and nor, to be honest are many of the people on this list). I use my machines. I therefore feel it's reasoable to make modifications to make them more useable. However, I make those modifications as reversable as possible (I would rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this darn thread started off about). -tony From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 19:25:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:25:42 -0500 Subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <005101c56640$75741890$223ed7d1@randy> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:00 PM > Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I _use_ my classic > computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable > while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is > that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a > mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is > totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g. by replacing the > guts with a PC running an emulator). > -tony What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer & Howard Harte) is developing a line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed). They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights & switches that ties into an emulator ;-) The same chassis & front panel also works with an S100 card cage & EZ80 based CPU to be a "real classic" computer (but new manufacture). Todd is looking into having a dummy front that is non-functional to reduce cost but allow a modern computer to look like a classic. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:21:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Provided the screws have not been lost, the bit of paper is still > > > around/readable, etc. The 'safest' place for those screws is in the > > > original holes. > > > > What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected > > They are, of course, in the appropriate service manuals, etc. Ok, are those service manuals inside the machines you modified? How can you be sure they never be separated from the machines? > > on various machines you own? Are they with the machine? Are they secured > > to it so that it won't get separated? Will the ink remain readable > > forever? Will the paper remain intact forever? If not then wouldn't it > > have been safer for you to have never made those modifications in the > > first place? > > Yes it would. But you're forgetting something. I _use_ my classic > computers, and therefore make modifications to make them more useable > while preserving the basic design of the machine (what I mean my that is > that I will hack a memory board to use larger-capacity ICs, I will make a > mod to use a more modern replacement chip [1], etc. What I won't do is So, if Jules decides they want to exhibit the 5155 (i.e. USE it) he can't make modifications to it that he considers making it more "useable" because you disagree with his methods? Who's to say your methods are any better? > totally change the architecture of the machine, e.g. by replacing the > guts with a PC running an emulator). Yeah, no one is suggesting that here. I have no idea why this is being brought up (again). > However, as I keep on saying, I still want to do as few modifications as > possible. Yes, I will happilly do the 640K mod to a PC/XT, including a > 5155 portable. In fact I did this mod to my 5155 (expansion slots are > tight, not much software will run in the standard 256K). That's a useful > mod. But there is no good reason to change those damn screws! No "good" reason that you can fathom at least. And let's compare bananas to bananas here: Jules is not doing a 640K mod on the 5155 (if he was, would you object? After all, he is making what you would consider a "useful" modification) he's swapping screws: a completely non-permanent, easily reversible, and (if reversed) non-detectable alteration. You're a hobbyist hacker making practical (extensive) alterations. He's an archivist making practical (minimal, non-permanent, easily reversible) alterations. BIG DIFFERENCE. You've turned an anthill into Mount Everest. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 31 19:26:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: system 36 on eBay In-Reply-To: <429B58B7.8070307@brutman.com> References: <200505301700.j4UH0ivq008953@dewey.classiccmp.org> <429B58B7.8070307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <45757.207.145.53.202.1117585577.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Michael wrote: > I have code in that thing .. (Specifically the low level OS that the 36 > emulator is running on top of.) Is that one of the machines that uses System/38 CISC hardware? Eric From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:26:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <004801c5663e$f62cbde0$223ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I think you might have come up with a great idea, don't put anything extra > into it at all :) I think the point is two-fold: 1) It can be sensible and reasonable to do so if done appropriately 2) One person's modifications are another person's abhorrence > Since you have so many classic systems it's obvious it would make sense to > have the tools to work on them in your toolbox :) Yes, and I do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:29:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in every machine > (5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be > replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future. No, I am not suggesting this, but what I am suggesting that is reasonable to do so if there is a practical need and as long as the change is documented. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 19:34:54 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:34:54 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <006c01c56641$be52ec20$223ed7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:04 PM > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at >> the >> repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the >> original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced. > > I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by > the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments). > > That being the case, which would you consider worse? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] There are two things that can be done to preserve a machine: Keep the original parts in the machine even if it no longer works. Revive the machine even if it requires replace a classic component that is no longer available with a current replacement. In the second case it becomes important to document what was done and why but both are valid ways to preserve machines. To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it is a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:33:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > > Many PC boards have had mods that are later reversed. Anyone looking at the > > > repaired boards can see that it was done to put the board back to the > > > original state, the same can not be said if a screw is replaced. > > > > I'm assuimg the context here is that the modifications are being done by > > the archivist (if not then someone is mixing their arguments). > > I think that a museum or other true archivist should do only those > modifications and replace only those parts necessary to keep the machine > operational, and then the replacement parts should be clearly > identifyable as such. This would seem to agree with what is done to other > mechancial artefacts in museums (e.g. clocks). Ok, so finally you are agreeing with me. > However, I make those modifications as reversable as possible (I would > rather not cut a PCB track, but sometimes there is no other way, for > example). And I don't make them if I don't have to (which is what this > darn thread started off about). Different contexts, different reasons. The change was negligible. In the end, I would agree with you: get the proper tool, and leave the original screws in place (this is what I would do). However, your arguments against Jules swapping screws were so entirely irrational that I found fault with them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 19:37:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:37:56 +0000 Subject: Tools In-Reply-To: <200506010005.RAA01911@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200506010005.RAA01911@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1117586276.15123.109.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 17:05 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > >The Citroen BX Diesel (XUD engine) is even easier. Turn the engine to the > >timing position and put 1 M8 bolt through a hole in the camshaft sprocket > >(it screws into the cylinder head) and 2 through holes in the injection > >pump sprocket (they screw into the block IIRC). Put a timing pin (an > >Allen key will do) into the hole behind the starter motor so that it > >slips into the hole in the flywheel. Remove the belt, fit a new one, > >remove the pin and bolts, turn the engine 2 full turns by hand, then > >check you can fit the bolts and pin back again. If so, it's correctly timed. > > > >-tony > > > > Hi > The Rover 2000 had two pins bolted to the engine. > One pin held the flywheel while the other held the cam > shaft. But then it was a chain and required a lot > of disassembly to replace the chain. > The main purpose was to hold things while one removed > the cam shaft to install adjuster shims for the valve > clearance. To make things a little more tricky, the > same bolts that held the cam shaft bearings were also > the head bolts :( Urgh yes ... been 5 or 6 years since I worked on a 2000 engine, but I remember those shims well :-( Still, those engines were totally bullet- proof (which helps explain why there are so many 2000's surviving these days I suppose) I did the timing chains on my Triumph a few years ago and it wasn't nearly the job everyone made out it would be. Main issue is getting the hydraulic tensioners adjusted properly. Incidentally that engine's timed off no.2 cylinder, not no.1... cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 19:31:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 05:11:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > You would advocate physically marring a board as "reversible" since you > > > could "solder a piece of wire over the break", but someone swapping screws > > > is permanently altering a machine's make-up? > > > > > > Please tell me you're joking. > > > > No I am not joking... > > > > A PCB cut and repair is (a) generally a useful modification (either to > > trace a fault, or to improve the machine in some way, and then to go back > > to the original configuration). And (b) it's bleeding obvious what's been > > done. > > You're telling me that permanently altering a computer in a museum setting > by cutting traces and modifying components is less intrusive than swapping > screws? Please explain how this is the case. It's not. But then I don't claim to run a museum. I do claim to use classic computers. A museum should change _nothing_ unless absolutely necessary to keep the machine operations (I feel that non-working computers have no interest whatsoever :-)). _I_ should change only that which is necessary to keep the machines useful. > > > It is _not_ obvious that the original screws were, say, Bristol Spline > > head if they've been replaced with Pozidriv or whatever. > > It is equally non-obvious that the modification was done contemporarily or > prior to the museum taking possession. True, and I would therefore agree that if a museum got a 5155 where the screws had already been replaced, they should leave the 'wrong' ones in, but if possible make a note of the fact that that screws don't appear to be original (so that some future historian doesn't think this is a variant of the machine -- yes, that has happened before). > > > My moan from the start is that there is no good reason to replace the > > original Bristol Spline screws with anything else. Period. And if there's > > no good reason to change something, you don't change it. > > In this case, there was what I would consider a good reason: Jules didn't > have a Bristol Spline tool on him and wanted to swap out the screws to > something more serviceable for future work. As far as I'm concerned (with > the caveats I have expressed) that's reasonable. To be honest, if you don't think you'll sometimes have to stop and buy a special tool, or stop and make a special tool, then you have little business working on any mechanical or electronic device! Maybe it's a standard tool (as here, or like that 11/32" spanner I mentioned in another message) that you don't hapeen to have. Maybe there is a manufacturers tool -- an alignement jig or something -- that is still available (and at a sane price), so you buy it. Maybe it's a special tool that's no longer available, or ridiculously overpriced (I was once quoted several _thousand pounds_ for a set of feeler gauges, mandrels, etc that I could make in very little time to an adequate degree of accuracy). Maybe the tool never was availabe because that section was not considered to be field-repairable. In that case, you make the tool, or find somebody who will make the tool. At the end of this message, I'll stick my notes on repairing the HP9810 card reader. I've done this to my machine. It is no longer original in that the drive roller hub has been replaced with a home-made one which is not, therefore, the HP part. But I have no problem with this modification because the HP part, and the tool to remove/fit it was never available. Yoy were supposed to replace the complete reader mechanism, and that is no longer available. It's also a useful modification in that it means I can now read HP9810 cards. And note that I had to make a special tool to remove the old roller. > > > When there is a good reason to change something, then I see no problem > > with changing it, provided you document the changes and attempt to make > > sure said documentation is preserved. > > I agree. So how do you rationalize the cutting of traces and > modifications of parts to make something work to be acceptable but the > swapping of screws to make something more practical to work on is > unacceptable, given in both cases you fully document the alteration? It's whether or not the modification is useful. Cutting traces for the fun of it is not acceptable. Cutting traces to section-isolate a PSU or bus short, or to make a useful change to the machine is acceptable to me (as I don't claim to run a museum). Changing screws because you can't be bothered to buy the right tool is not acceptable. Redrilling and re-tapping the holes one size larger, and then fitting new screws is acceptable if the original threads have stripped. HP9810 reader repairs ---------------------- Take off the drive belt from the LHS. Then undo the 2 screws and remove the head. This is not essential, but you'd feel a right idiot if you damaged the head in subsequent work!. Remove the top left and bottom left card sensor bulbholders from the plastic frame, leave them hanging on the wires. Remove the screws from the pillars connecting the 2 sideplates. The front bottom one on the right hand side, all the others on the left (you have to frob one of the top ones to get it clear of the pulley). Separate the plates, and slide the 2 left hand card sensor photodetectors out of the plastic frame also. Contine separaing the frames and remove the pinch roller/pressure pad assembly. Remove the rear cover from the motor (2 tiny screws, you need a nutdriver a few sizes smaller than most people have!). Undo the 2 screws holding the wires to the brushgear. At this point the 2 plates can be completely separated, set the right hand one (with the cableform, etc) aside. Remove the motor brushes (one more screw each) to protect them. Remove the screw holding the lower front pillar to the left plate, remove it with the card guide. Rmeove the roller from the shaft using the puller tool. If necessary, file off any burrs from the end of the shaft. Carefully slide the roller shaft out of the side plate and recover the metal strip. Make a new roller as follows : 1" (or so) length of 7/8" (actually 0.87") brass rod. Face off both ends. Centre-drill one end, then drill 1/8" (or 3.1mm). Check it will fit onto the roller shaft (but not over the knurled part) Turn a 0.06" deep groove (so 0.75" dianmeter at base) 0.1" from the end and 0.25" from the end. Part off a total of 0.35" of the rod. --------------- <--------- ) 0.1" ) ( <--------- ) | | 0.15" ) ( <--------- ) 0.1" --------------- <--------- ) Fit 2 O-rings (1" OD, 0.75" ID, 0.125" think) into the grooves. Check overall diameter of roller (should be 1") Refit roller shaft through metal strip (DON'T forget this!) and left side plate. Press new roller onto shaft using a suitable drift and bench vice. Reassemble the other parts of the reader. Puller tool to remove HP9810 card reader roller ----------------------------------------------- 2 pieces of steel, 2.5" by 2" Top plate, 1/4" thick : 4mm holes at (0.25,0.25), (1.25,0.25), (2.25, 0.25), (0.25,1.5), (2.25,1.5) 10.6mm (M12 tapping size) at (1.25,1.5), Tap this hole M12 (1.75mm pitch) Lower plate, 1/8" thick 4mm holes at (0.25,0.25), (1.25,0.25), (2.25, 0.25), (0.25,1.5), (2.25,1.5) 1/8" hole at (1.25, 1.5). Mill 1/8" slot to nearest long edge (about 0.5" long). 5 pillars, 2" long, 3/8" diameter steel. Drill 3.5mm and tap M4 in centre of each end. Assemble with M4 bolts through 4mm holes in plates to ends of pillars. Fit M12 bolt to tapped hole in top plate. Drift to refit roller --------------------- 1.5" length (or thereabouts) of 7/8" brass rod. Face off both ends, centre-drill, and drill 3.2mm hole. This should be a sliding fit on the roller spindle. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 19:48:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:48:26 +0000 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1117586906.15123.118.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-06-01 at 01:05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you suggesting that every Bristol Spline screw in every machine > (5155s, Datamasters, IBM typewriters, Friden Flexowriters, etc) should be > replaced now, just in case you can't get the right tool in the future. My 2p on that one... in a word, no. I wouldn't do it on something that used lots of them. But it makes more sense to do it one a machine that only uses two or three of them where the original reason for them being there has gone away. We may well even have a set of bristol spline tools at the museum (I was taking this IBM apart at home at the time) - we do have a couple of flexowriters (although no equipment actively using them). Of course the Colossus uses one too, which suggests that their team probably have a set (given the large amount of sponsorship they have, that seems highly likely) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 31 19:43:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:43:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at May 31, 5 05:21:56 pm Message-ID: > > > What about all the notes you've made of the modifications you've effected > > > > They are, of course, in the appropriate service manuals, etc. > > Ok, are those service manuals inside the machines you modified? How can Of course not. > you be sure they never be separated from the machines? I cna't. I can be darn sure I'll never separate them, and I've told the guy who gets my collection if I snuff it that he must check all service manuals and other docs for my notes. YEs, it's quite possible the documentation will get lost. I alas consider this to be a necessary evil of keeping these machines useful and operational. > > So, if Jules decides they want to exhibit the 5155 (i.e. USE it) he can't > make modifications to it that he considers making it more "useable" If it was a mod that made it more usable, then I'd agree.... If that monitor was assembled with screws that were impossible to remove non-destructively, then I would have no problem with drilling them out and replacing them with something else since the monitor needs repair. If the delivery time on a Bristol Spline key was 1 year or something, then considering Jules has already removed the screws with pliers, I guess he should order the tool, put the monitor back together with normal screws for the time being (given that documentation is not hard to preserve for 1 year), and when the tool arrives, put the original screws back in. But, darn it, the right tool is not hard to obtain, there is no good reason for not keeping the original screws. > No "good" reason that you can fathom at least. And let's compare bananas > to bananas here: Jules is not doing a 640K mod on the 5155 (if he was, > would you object? After all, he is making what you would consider a No, I'd have no problem with that, provided it was documented as such (a paint dot on each of the replaced ICs is the conventional way to indicate such changes I think, along with paper documentation of what was changed and why, and the date). In fact I would recomend doing that modification if it's not already been done, it was a common mod when the machine was current, it lets you run a lot more software on it. > "useful" modification) he's swapping screws: a completely non-permanent, > easily reversible, and (if reversed) non-detectable alteration. You're a > hobbyist hacker making practical (extensive) alterations. He's an > archivist making practical (minimal, non-permanent, easily reversible) > alterations. BIG DIFFERENCE. > My comment is, and has always beem, that an archivist, and for that matter anyone else, should not make a modification unless there's a darn good reason for it. Not wanting to buy the right tool is not a good reason. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 19:56:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <006c01c56641$be52ec20$223ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it is > a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason. The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is lost" if two screws are replaced). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 31 20:01:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 01:01:37 +0000 Subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <005101c56640$75741890$223ed7d1@randy> References: <005101c56640$75741890$223ed7d1@randy> Message-ID: <1117587697.15123.128.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer & Howard Harte) is developing a > line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic > looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed). > > They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it > accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights & > switches that ties into an emulator ;-) Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to do? I mean, software-level emulation of something like an Imsai presumably needs a few percent of the horsepower of any ATX PC. Better still, do it in hardware but using modern parts, which at least teaches people a bit about how the thing actually works as well as being functional. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 31 20:07:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New PC in classic chassis was Re: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: <1117587697.15123.128.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer & Howard Harte) is developing a > > line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a classic > > looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed). > > > > They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it > > accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights & > > switches that ties into an emulator ;-) > > Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to > do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final > thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to > do? Because it's also intended to be a useful work machine, not just a repro IMSAI. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 31 20:06:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506010113.VAA17203@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]. That's a useful mod. But there is no good reason to change > those damn screws! As Sellam just said, it's all a question of how good people consider reasons to be. You (apparently) consider it perfectly reasonable to go buy a whole new set of tools (specifically, these Bristol spline thingies) to work on a machine. You don't consider having to buy those tools obstacle enough to make it worth swapping the screws for something commoner. I do. Apparently a few other people here do too. And since the conversation appears to have degenerated into "yes that is a good reason" "no it isn't" "is!" "isn't!" (I'm paraphrasing, but not all that much), I'm going to just agree to disagree, at least insofar as one can unilaterally agree on anything. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 20:17:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:17:03 -0500 Subject: IBM 5155 analogue display fault References: Message-ID: <002801c56647$a1d96fa0$de3dd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:56 PM > On Tue, 31 May 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> To replace an original part with a different part with no valid reason it >> is >> a shame, part of history is lost for no good reason. > > The argument then boils down to what is or is not a "valid" reason, and > whether the change is enough to get in an uproar over (i.e. "history is > lost" if two screws are replaced). > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I personally have lost screws, I do not cry I replace them with the closest I can find. If the tool needed was too expensive or I couldn't find it I would replace the screws. If it is a current machine that at the time I didn't consider collectable I wouldn't sweat it. If the machine is collectable (at least in my mind) then keeping it original is important. Even if it is important to keep it original then there are factors that can over-ride it. The answer is in the mind of the collector, in this case he decided not to keep it original. As for any PC I don't really care but the principles apply to all collectables. I just think it a shame when anyone considers a machine valuable as a collectable but not valuable to keep it original when reasonable. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue May 31 20:15:37 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen > keys) upstairs, [...] Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I don't know but which is common in circles I've never moved in, or perhaps I misread the references and it's not actually that common.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 20:25:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:25:03 -0500 Subject: New PC in classic chassis References: Message-ID: <003301c56648$c061a3b0$de3dd7d1@randy> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:07 PM > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On Tue, 2005-05-31 at 19:25 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> > What's funny is that Imsai (Todd Fischer & Howard Harte) is developing >> > a >> > line of computers that includes a modern PC running an emulator in a >> > classic >> > looking case (all new nothing classic destroyed). >> > >> > They have a chassis that is an upgrade from the original Imsai 8080, it >> > accepts ATX style guts and a Front panel with all the flashing lights & >> > switches that ties into an emulator ;-) >> >> Why? I don't mean why do it at all, because it's a cool enough thing to >> do, by why use a full-blown ATX PC? Isn't that going to make the final >> thing rather expensive and overkill for the task that the thing needs to >> do? > > Because it's also intended to be a useful work machine, not just a repro > IMSAI. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Correct, they are building a true retro computer based on the 8 bit EZ80. Once the chassis is manufactured it makes sense to market the same chassis to other uses. The chassis is manufactured to be a replacement of the original Imsai 8080 chassis where it has mounting holes for the original linear PS-28 power-supply, original S100 backplane, etc as well as capable of mounting a current PC. If someone has a missing cover on their old chassis I assume the current cover can be used as a replacement etc. There are several markets available, it supports a classic environment and I think it's a great idea. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue May 31 21:37:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:37:03 -0500 Subject: "Pozidriv" [was Re: Tools (was: IBM 5155 analogue display fault] References: <200506010118.VAA17247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001401c56652$cf36be70$893cd7d1@randy> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 8:15 PM >> I have a minimal tookit (flat blade, Phillips, Pozidriv, Torx, Allen >> keys) upstairs, [...] > > Which reminds me - I've seen this "Pozidriv" screw drive mentioned > elsewhere in this thread, as if it were a common type. Since there is > no screw drive type I know by that name, this leads me to wonder, what > is it? (It may be another name for one I know, or it may be one I > don't know but which is common in circles I've never moved in, or > perhaps I misread the references and it's not actually that common.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B http://www.bitsnbores.com/images/Mi0648.jpg Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue May 31 21:45:48 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:45:48 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050407103538.04e5a698@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050407103538.04e5a698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <2888a64a52600d6cfc476460383256bd@xlisper.mv.com> Has anyone who ordered one of these ROMs received it yet? I haven't received mine and I've tried to send Roger email on a number of occasions and have gotten no reply. Has anyone else heard from him? Thanks, David On Apr 7, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Well, I have good news and I have good news... (and just a little bad > news)... > > I have now erased a bajangle of eproms, I have quite a few Basics > burned and lots of spare blank carts, so they'll hit the mail soon. I > have tomorrow off, so I'll prolly pack/address/ship then. If not, > definitely over the weekend. Tuesday nite was going to be my "Pack'em > up nite" but the wifeypoo got a line on a good job, so it was > transformed into "Rewrite the Resume nite."[1] Wednesdays are a PITA > for me (to work at 7:30am, get out at 8:30 pm or later) so I rarely > feel like doing anything after work. Of course, my LCD monitor "went > blank" Tuesday nite, so I had to figure out the cause of that last > nite... I was a grumpy dude by 11:00 pm. ;-) Turns out the LCD monitor > died... :-( I grabbed my wife's monitor and am using that temporarily > until I can get a new one in. > > I did test a basic cart in my HHC, and it seems to work fine, *except* > I think my RAM's a bit wonky, as once I create a program, then exit > BASIC, it thinks I have 2 bytes of free memory left. Weird. It might > also be a limitation as to *which slot* the chip goes into - I didn't > diddle with that. Or... I don't believe that the internal batteries > are functioning, so it might be a power problem causing the > wonkeyness... Anyway, the Basic itself comes up and it takes immediate > commands just fine, and I've entered in 2-3 line programs that run > fine until you exit basic, then it thinks there's no free memory left. > Like I said, weird. > > Anyway, I'll send out individual emails tomorrow with the status of > each order, but I wanted to let everyone know I didn't forget 'em! > > ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > [1] After a 10-year hiatus from the workforce, it was quite a job! > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > From rsnats at bellsouth.net Tue May 31 22:22:55 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:22:55 -0500 Subject: Intel UPP103 Cable Message-ID: <007401c56659$90b91ba0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> I have a Intel MDS-800 and a UPP-103. I don't have the cable that connects the two units. Both units have DB-25 D-type connectors. Does anyone have a wiring diagram of this cable. From ericj at speakeasy.org Tue May 31 16:42:12 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bliss-32 manuals (was Re: BYTE Magazines available) In-Reply-To: <810514caaf3065efb1ad8db018c6a2d4@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 May 2005, David Betz wrote: > On May 31, 2005, at 7:58 AM, Eric Josephson wrote: > > I *thought* I saw the Bliss manuals on one of the VMS freeware cds. > > I'll check later. Or did you mean hardcopy? > > I was looking for hard copy. Thanks for the pointer though. If I can't > find hard copy, it will probably come in handy. > Checked. In the unfortunate case that you don't luck into some hard copy manuals in nice gray binders, the Bliss-32 user manual and language reference are on cd #1 of freeware 5 in the [bliss] directory in postscript and pdf formats. -- Eric Josephson From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 21:16:31 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a source of 7501 micros Message-ID: <20050601021631.34673.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> ...as used in the Commodore Plus 4. Preferably new *lol*. Hey...you never know... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com