From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Mar 1 00:15:16 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:15:16 -0800 Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200502282215.16961.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Sellam, When I joined IBM in 1961 as a field engineer for computers (7090/7094) - they required that I learn "unit record" equipment as well. I spent four months learning how to fix 407's, etc. If you ever get one, I can only tell you that it will likely be an unmerciful job getting it to work!!! They are mechanical nightmares... Lyle On Monday 28 February 2005 20:54, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Can I fantasize? > > I'm reading some literature on IBM accounting machines and finding them > incredibly sexy. It would be a blast to actually program one and run > calculations through it. > > So I'd love to someday get my hands on a 402, 407, etc. I'm also now more > interested than ever in getting more unit record equipment. I've got a > 557 interpreter and an 026 punch. It'd be nice to have a sorter (082) but > what I'd really like is some sort of accounting machine or even a > calculator (fat chance of that). > > So, that being said, if anyone every comes across anything like this, I'm > buying :) > > Worst case, I'll build some punch card equipment from scratch. That would > be even more fun. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From john at guntersville.net Tue Mar 1 00:21:34 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 00:21:34 -0600 Subject: Age References: <0502261943.AA04708@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <422409EE.F312E504@guntersville.net> There was a mention of " real radios glow in the dark" which brought back memories of the first logic equipment that I worked on back in the 60s. It didn't glow in the dark since the little pencil tubes didn't put out a lot of light like the larger ones. The equipment was all digital and all tube based. The later generations were solid state (potted logic ice cube modules) and discrete components, no ICs then. They weren't computers that you could program but specialized processors.... I still have some of those "glow in the dark radios" and test equipment. From class at fliptronics.com Tue Mar 1 00:58:43 2005 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:58:43 -0800 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050228135827.009b89d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:58:27 -0500, you wrote: > Does anyone have any information about this part? I've been told that >it's a high performance microprocessor. I found it on what looks like a hex >size DEC card made by Spectra Logic Corp. I found a picture of one on the >net but it's not very good. > > > Joe The 29116 is a 16 bit microcoded processor. It includes the following major blocks: 3 port ALU 32 word of single access RAM (the register file) 1 Accumulator register 16 bit barrel shifter 16 bit priority encoder Status logic and test structure Instruction decoder. Designed by the same people that did the 2901 and 2903 bit slice processors, this device is NOT bit slice, and could not be cascaded. Like the bit slice processors, it does require an external sequencer, such as the 2910, 29112, 29311, or 29331, as well as a microcod memory (SRAM or ROM). A significant departure from previous devices is the use of vertical rather than horizontal microcode. This lead to the microinstruction for the '116 being only 16 bits, and many systems had a total microcode width of 32 bits, the other 16 bits being for a sequencer such as the 2910, plus other control lines. The original bipolar 29116 was designed by Bill Harmon. I was the design manager for the CMOS version the 29C116 (I didn't do much, as the redesign was pretty much cut and paste). Other major players included Sunil Joshi, Deepak Mithani, Steve Stephansen, Paul Chu (my boss. His boss was Bill Harmon), Brad Kitson, Warren Miller, and many more that I can't remember. Please forgive me, it was 18 years ago. Typical applications included disk/tape/printer controllers, graphics engines, missile guidance computers, telephone switching systems (PABX/PMBX) and generally other 16 applications that previously used 4 x 2901 or 4 x 2903 type devices. The standard software tools were either AMDASM from AMD or StepASM from Step engineering. These were highly configurable meta-assemblers, with extensive macro capabilities. There were no higher level languages. Typical system cycle time was around 140 nS, the CMOS version was somewhat faster. Philip Freidin Ex Manager of Product Planning for Microprogrammable Processors at AMD ================= Philip Freidin philip at fliptronics.com From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Mar 1 01:38:25 2005 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:38:25 EST Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: <80.227bd717.2f5575f1@aol.com> At a rummage sale last weekend I picked up a 1991 Leading Technology 7000DX, an original 25 MHz 386 with a first gen NEC SCSI external CD-ROM, speakers, mouse, Keyboard, VGA monitor. What made it was all the original books and software including about a dozen games of the early 90s including DOOM II. I couldn't resist the box of SW and books. It was $5 for all. It wasn't till I got it home that I realized it is one of the first 386s (must remember to check which chip is in it). I think it is based on the magictronic board set. It had a proprietary memory card which you could load up with up to 8 megs of RAM (this one has 6 Meg.). I think it was really just used as a household games machine. Did have windows 3.1 installed but it really was used as a DOS 5.0 computer. It is a classic in its own right...and over 10 years old. Paxton Astoria, OR From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Mar 1 02:03:35 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:03:35 +0100 Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) References: Message-ID: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi William, > > The Computer > > History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope we can > > restore it someday. > > IBM. Tough stuff. Why is restoring IBM stuff so tough ? I am currently restoring a IBM System/7, not that tough. http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman Got my System/3 back up and running again. Regards Henk From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 02:50:55 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 00:50:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPDATE: Texas Instruments 990 business computer Message-ID: <20050301085055.59202.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> 1978(?) Texas Instruments 990 business computer. The owner wants $750 for it. Too much for me, but certainly a nice system. See photo links below. There is also an external drive system, not sure if floppy or HD - it's at her house. http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-2.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-3.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-4.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/system-5.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/front-1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/manuals.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/ti-990.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/ebay/ds10.jpg (these photos are in my ebay directory, but the system is not in my possession, and certainly not on ebay) This system is in Los Angeles. Anyone want to pick it up for $750? Must take all of it! Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Mar 1 03:05:59 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:05:59 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:18:20 GMT." <200502282118.j1SLIPfX021647@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503010905.JAA02945@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Adrian Graham said: I said: > > (Anyone in the UK see the BBC Open University tv program on > > the early days of computer programming the other night? > > Plenty of film and stills of early computers, including films > > of EDSAC, ENIAC etc and interviews with Maurice Wilkes and > > other pioneer programmers.) > > Bah, I didn't know it was on! Neither did I, if I had I would have videod it. I woke up in the middle of the night (which happens a lot lately!), actually 2am Sunday, and turned on the bedside tv for something to do, and the program was just starting. The tv magazines list the Open University programs in an after thought at the end of the BBC2 listings and it is easy to overlook them - I should check more carefully because they have some interesting stuff and the BBC has always been very computer orientated. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 04:39:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 05:39:04 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> <200502282010.PAA29074@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:45:34 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Unless, of course, you actually have a decent digital camera... ;-) > ...Nikon D70... > > And yes, it has an iris, shutter (speeds from 30sec -> 1/8000 sec) takes > most Nikon lenses made in the last 15ish years... Agreed... I have an Olympus D10 I picked up a couple of years ago... one important feature is that it has an external trigger input for a "bulb". I used it to take pictures of the Aurora Australis (http://www.penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/pix.cgi?target=2004) It doesn't have interchangable lenses, but it does have an iris and a shutter. The longest timed shutter speed is either 8 or 16 sec (can't remember; don't use it). I needed 45-60 sec to get aurorae, meaning I needed a much-better-than-consumer-grade digital camera. There's lots better on the market now, but at the time, it was the best I could afford. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 05:19:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 06:19:12 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <16931.38608.243313.715894@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <16931.38608.243313.715894@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: > >> > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata > >> off the > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots > >> under a trial and > error approach, I have to note down what > >> settings I was using for which > shot which is getting to be a > >> pain in the butt! Have you looked at 'exiftool'? NAME exiftool - print meta information from image files SYNOPSIS exiftool [OPTIONS] [-TAG or --TAG ...] FILE ... DESCRIPTION Prints information for specified tags from listed files. -TAG specifies the name of a tag to extract, or --TAG to ignore. FILE may be an image file name, a directory name, or - for the standard input. Currently recognized file types are JPG, TIFF, GIF, THM, CRW, CR2, NEF and DNG. I have it on my RedHat laptop; it was able to return wads of info from pictures taken with my Olympus D10, including shutter speed and aperture, which is what I expect you are after. -ethan From kenharbit at cvip.net Tue Mar 1 06:55:24 2005 From: kenharbit at cvip.net (Ken Harbit) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:55:24 -0500 Subject: list server problems In-Reply-To: <00c601c51e1f$c727a210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00c601c51e1f$c727a210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4224663C.1080404@cvip.net> Yes, I am not on your list. Please do not send me this stuff. Jay West wrote: > In case anyone can't tell, I'm having some pretty severe problems with > the mailman software :\ All I can say is I'm working on it :\ > > Jay > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Mar 1 07:12:12 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:12:12 -0500 Subject: OSI Software Find! Message-ID: Well, since my C4P-MF has been rock solid stable since I fitted the new power supply and cleaned the drive head, I've been going through a bunch of 25 (and more) year old diskettes to see just what I have. Lo-and-behold! On a diskette simply labeled OS65D 3.2 (not originally mine, acquired I don't know where), I found really nice machine code implementations of Space Invaders and Asteroids! You don't usually see machine code programs on OSI diskettes, the OS was too crude to have a simple binary loader. Diskettes usually have BASIC programs, with maybe a couple of USR$ sub-routines in data statements. To load and execute the programs, you have to EXIT from BASIC into the sub-monitor and then load the diskette tracks into memory one at a time. Once you have it loaded, then you GO to the starting address. I think that these programs might have been originally intended to be loaded from cassette tape. Fortunately, the diskette had two BASIC programs, each of which PRINTs the instructions for loading the machine code programs. I'm really happy about this! People usually see OSI boxes running rather slow interpreted BASIC programs. These two programs show just what an OSI box can do. There is no attribution for the Asteroids program, but the Space Invaders is copyright 1980 by Michael Kincaid. Can't wait to show these at TCF! Bill From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 1 07:26:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:26:37 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1109683597.10421.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 16:45 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > > >After all, long exposure makes the picture more exposed (as compared to > >a shorter exposure, other things constant); slow film makes the picture > >less exposed (as compared to a faster film, other things constant). So > >you long exposure plus slow film adds up to wanting the "normal" > >lighting conditions. And that kind of lighting is what you want for a > >digital camera anyway. > > Unless, of course, you actually have a decent digital camera... ;-) > > http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/d70/Nitetime_shot_30sec.jpg Has that been post-processed in any way? The quality's not bad for a digital - no where near as grainy as most digital cameras are. > 1.2Meg of storage used -- it's a 30-second exposure of downtown Grand > Rapids, I'm a bit irritated that mine won't do longer than 15 seconds - at least I haven't found a way of doing so yet. I expected the manual mode would also give the option of completely controlling exposure, but it seems not (although there's way too many options hidden away that I keep on finding ;) Comparable cameras in that price range either didn't have the hot-shoe flash attachment or (incredibly) had no optical viewfinder (the latter would *completely* drive me nuts). cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 1 08:22:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 06:22:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD Message-ID: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.thefairchildchronicles.com/ ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From kurt at k-huhn.com Tue Mar 1 08:23:47 2005 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:23:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <20050227141616.3413.h013.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> References: <20050227141616.3413.h013.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <47593.198.180.131.21.1109687027.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> On Sun, February 27, 2005 17:16, mhstein at canada.com said: > I've been cleaning up the hard disks in my Cromemco > systems in preparation for getting rid of them (no, > they're not available at this time), and I have a > question: > > There are numerous systems out there, and Herb and > Howard et al are doing a great job of archiving the > documentation, but what about the software? Is > anybody archiving the various versions of CDOS, > Cromix & Unix, and the languages & applications? > > For that matter, is there any point? I don't see > many people writing Cobol or Fortran programs to > run on a System 3... > I'm pretty sure that the software would be *highly* desireable. I know one person that just got a Cromemco, and would be very happy to see software and OSs available. -- Kurt Huhn "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!" kurt at k-huhn.com -- Patches O'Houlihan From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 1 08:34:43 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:34:43 -0500 Subject: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD In-Reply-To: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> Has anyone ordered and gotten this yet? Is it worthwhile? Is is it a really dry boring documentary? Just curious... Also anyone know the status of the BBS documentary, I ordered the DVD set back in late November as I recall, still nothing has shown up yet, did anyone else get theirs yet or maybe its still not done/shipping... Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? Curt Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >http://www.thefairchildchronicles.com/ > >===== >Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net > >*** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! >- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address >- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com >- We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 1 08:35:27 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:35:27 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <47593.198.180.131.21.1109687027.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> References: <20050227141616.3413.h013.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> <47593.198.180.131.21.1109687027.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> Message-ID: <42247DAF.9080306@atarimuseum.com> I have a Cromemco Z2 and I'd love any Cromemco software out there Curt Kurt Huhn wrote: >On Sun, February 27, 2005 17:16, mhstein at canada.com said: > > >>I've been cleaning up the hard disks in my Cromemco >>systems in preparation for getting rid of them (no, >>they're not available at this time), and I have a >>question: >> >>There are numerous systems out there, and Herb and >>Howard et al are doing a great job of archiving the >>documentation, but what about the software? Is >>anybody archiving the various versions of CDOS, >>Cromix & Unix, and the languages & applications? >> >>For that matter, is there any point? I don't see >>many people writing Cobol or Fortran programs to >>run on a System 3... >> >> >> > >I'm pretty sure that the software would be *highly* desireable. I know >one person that just got a Cromemco, and would be very happy to see >software and OSs available. > >-- >Kurt Huhn "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!" >kurt at k-huhn.com -- Patches O'Houlihan > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 09:08:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:08:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <20050227141616.3413.h013.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 mhstein at canada.com wrote: > There are numerous systems out there, and Herb and Howard et al are > doing a great job of archiving the documentation, but what about the > software? Is anybody archiving the various versions of CDOS, Cromix & > Unix, and the languages & applications? I know I've got lots of various versions of this stuff on various media. Nothing concerted, however. > For that matter, is there any point? I don't see many people writing > Cobol or Fortran programs to run on a System 3... Yes. There's always value in preserving this stuff. Even if not apparent to us now. And it only takes the space of a floppy disk (or no space at all once it's been converted over to a modern hard disk). > So, any ideas what to do with it? (no obscene suggestions, please!) Stick it up your hard drive? > BTW, any news about what happened with Don Maslin's collection? I'm wondering the same thing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 09:13:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:13:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: <200502282215.16961.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > When I joined IBM in 1961 as a field engineer for computers (7090/7094) > - they required that I learn "unit record" equipment as well. I spent > four months learning how to fix 407's, etc. > > If you ever get one, I can only tell you that it will likely be an > unmerciful job getting it to work!!! They are mechanical nightmares... I can imagine. The stuff I was reading yesterday said that for a Card Programmed Calculator Model A1, which is really a union of a 412-418 accounting machine, 527 printing punch, 604 calculator, and one to three 941 auxiliary storage units (providing storage of an additional 16 10-digit words!), one would require a total of 48 AMPS!!! One machine alone required 33A. Wow! Still, gotta love stuff that automates calculations with purely mechanical methods (well, except for the 604) and uses punch cards. It's basically the 20th century version of the Babbage engine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 09:18:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPDATE: Texas Instruments 990 business computer In-Reply-To: <20050301085055.59202.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, steven stengel wrote: > This system is in Los Angeles. Anyone want to pick it up for $750? Must > take all of it! Unless we've entered a timewarp and it's 1983 again, no. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 09:20:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:20:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Agreed... I have an Olympus D10 I picked up a couple of years ago... > one important feature is that it has an external trigger input for a > "bulb". I used it to take pictures of the Aurora Australis > (http://www.penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/pix.cgi?target=2004) Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this is a really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it looks like in real life? Amazing! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 1 09:37:46 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 09:37:46 -0600 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050301093347.03c68c08@mail> At 09:20 AM 3/1/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this is a >really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it looks >like in real life? Amazing! During a nice solar storm like the one we had in November, you need not go that far south or north. Check out November 8, 2004 or so on www.spaceweather.com . Here in SE WI, the aurora passed the zenith. Are they that green around here? Sometimes, but they're generally more muted. Any sort of time exposure intensifies the colors your eyes can't see in dim light. - John From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 1 09:51:17 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:51:17 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <16931.38608.243313.715894@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <1109624413.8717.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <16931.38608.243313.715894@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1109692277.24000.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 17:10 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: > > Jules> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:26 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > >> > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata > >> off the > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots > > Jules> metadata stuff as well as images... but you're probably > Jules> right, and it probably appears under the filesystem somewhere > Jules> which might do the job. > > Something about this sounds odd. > > The metadata is right in the JPG files. At least it is on my Nikon > 880. There's nothing else on the file system (which is a plain old > FAT filesystem). Yup. FWIW, you can even dump the data out under Linux w/ a command called 'exif' (Source here, if your distro is package challenged: http://sourceforge.net/projects/libexif ) FWIW, Below is a dump of the data my Canon A80 saves (and I suspect most modern digital camera's do similarly) To keep it from being further off topic, the picture (not that its attached) was of a SGI Crimson CPU board. And I agree, its easier to just rip the memory card out, stick it in a USB reader, and mount it up than to try and get the camera to "talk" directly. David $ exif img_0310.jpg EXIF tags in 'img_0310.jpg' ('Intel' byte order): --------------------+---------------------------------------------------------- Tag |Value --------------------+---------------------------------------------------------- Manufacturer |Canon Model |Canon PowerShot A80 Orientation |top - left x-Resolution |180/1 y-Resolution |180/1 Resolution Unit |Inch Date and Time |2004:01:22 21:59:25 YCbCr Positioning |centered Compression |JPEG compression x-Resolution |180/1 y-Resolution |180/1 Resolution Unit |Inch Exposure Time |1/59 sec. FNumber |f/2.8 Exif Version |Exif Version 2.2 Date and Time (origi|2004:01:22 21:59:25 Date and Time (digit|2004:01:22 21:59:25 ComponentsConfigurat|Y Cb Cr - Compressed Bits per |5/1 Shutter speed |189/32 sec. (APEX: 7) Aperture |f/2.8 Exposure Bias |0.0 MaxApertureValue |95/32 Metering Mode |Pattern Flash |Flash fired, auto mode, red-eye reduction mode. Focal Length |7.8 mm Maker Note |878 bytes unknown data User Comment | FlashPixVersion |FlashPix Version 1.0 Color Space |sRGB PixelXDimension |2272 PixelYDimension |1704 Focal Plane x-Resolu|2272000/280 Focal Plane y-Resolu|1704000/210 Focal Plane Resoluti|Inch Sensing Method |One-chip color area sensor File Source |DSC Custom Rendered |Normal process Exposure Mode |Auto exposure White Balance |Auto white balance Digital Zoom Ratio |2272/2272 Scene Capture Type |Standard InteroperabilityInde|R98 InteroperabilityVers| RelatedImageWidth |2272 RelatedImageLength |1704 --------------------+---------------------------------------------------------- EXIF data contains a thumbnail (5219 bytes). From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 09:56:52 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:56:52 -0600 Subject: UPDATE: Texas Instruments 990 business computer References: Message-ID: <003301c51e77$49675f20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> That's a very nice system. However, it's definitely NOT worth $750.00. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 10:26:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:26:29 -0600 Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status Message-ID: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I finally got an hour free to dig back into my /45 restoration. Thanks to some spare boards to help test and some very good "CE quickdocs" (thanks a million ashley!), I got a little further. However, it brings me to two questions. 1) In the absence of full docs on the MF11-L... I'm not sure about the following. It looks like the 1st slot of the MF11-L backplan gets a unibus in (A-B) from the last slot of the cpu backplane. The 2nd slot is my G110, the 3rd is my G231, and the 4th slot has my H214 (C-F) in it. But looking at some of the docs, it appears that an H214 can be in slots 1, 4, and a few others per the diagram. My system arrived with one H214 in slot 4. Should it be first... in slot 1 under the unibus in? Since I had a spare from ashley, I put one in slot 1 and one in slot 4. I know the jumpers on the other boards may not reflect 16K, but I figured it might change things. So if I have just 8K set up, should the H214 be in slot 1, 4, or does it matter? 2) My front panel has an oddity (to me). If I select say address 10000 and hit load addr the address lights respond correctly with 10000. I then hit examine and get nothing (blank data lights). Whatever... but here's the interesting part. If I keep pressing examine over and over again, the address lights count up just like they should - except they skip bit zero (the rightmost bit, either 0 or 15 whatever dec nomenclature is). I don't mean that the rightmost bit just isn't displaying correctly, the actual counting sequence acts like the rightmost bit is the 2nd light from the right. I can tell it's not just a bulb problem because I don't have to hit load addr twice to "move on", the count is smooth and sequential without the rightmost bit. Any thoughts offhand? I know my memory system is likely not jumpered right. I'm looking through those jumpers either tonight or tomorrow and verify them. Thanks for any thoughts! Jay From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 10:35:17 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:35:17 -0500 Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status References: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00be01c51e7c$a7d10ac0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > I finally got an hour free to dig back into my /45 restoration. Thanks to > some spare boards to help test and some very good "CE quickdocs" (thanks a > million ashley!), I got a little further. However, it brings me to two > questions. > > 1) In the absence of full docs on the MF11-L... I'm not sure about the > following. It looks like the 1st slot of the MF11-L backplan gets a unibus > in (A-B) from the last slot of the cpu backplane. The 2nd slot is my G110, > the 3rd is my G231, and the 4th slot has my H214 (C-F) in it. But looking at > some of the docs, it appears that an H214 can be in slots 1, 4, and a few > others per the diagram. My system arrived with one H214 in slot 4. Should it > be first... in slot 1 under the unibus in? Since I had a spare from ashley, > I put one in slot 1 and one in slot 4. I know the jumpers on the other > boards may not reflect 16K, but I figured it might change things. So if I > have just 8K set up, should the H214 be in slot 1, 4, or does it matter? Jay, I think I have all the original documentation on the MF11-L, both the big field maintenance prints and the user manual. I'll double check, but I do believe that these came with my 11/35. Ashley From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 10:35:41 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:35:41 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... Message-ID: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> Just grabbed an ASR-33 on ePay.....LOCAL so no shipping damage (except what I induce)..... Since I dont carry my reference manuals with me, can anyone post the "proper" size for the hold-down bolt(s)?????? I want to pick this up on the way home this evening.... From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Mar 1 10:39:30 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:39:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: PING Fred VanKempen Message-ID: Fred, if you're getting messages at all, pls contact me, thanks. If anyone else on the List has heard from Fred, or knows how to get a Message through to him, please if possible ask him to write me privately. Thanks! Cheers John From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Mar 1 10:44:50 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:44:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Has anyone ordered and gotten this yet? Is it worthwhile? Is is it a > really dry boring documentary? Just curious... > > Also anyone know the status of the BBS documentary, I ordered the DVD > set back in late November as I recall, still nothing has shown up yet, > did anyone else get theirs yet or maybe its still not done/shipping... > > > Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. In unrelated news, this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28022&item=8172345974&rd=1 reminds me of the backlash again the PC revolution. One retrained old lady drafter I worked with kept a copy pasted to her Autocad PC ;) --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 1 10:50:41 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 08:50:41 -0800 Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status In-Reply-To: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1109695841.9158.10.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 10:26 -0600, Jay West wrote: > 1) In the absence of full docs on the MF11-L... I'm not sure about the > following. It looks like the 1st slot of the MF11-L backplan gets a unibus > in (A-B) from the last slot of the cpu backplane. The 2nd slot is my G110, > the 3rd is my G231, and the 4th slot has my H214 (C-F) in it. But looking at > some of the docs, it appears that an H214 can be in slots 1, 4, and a few > others per the diagram. My system arrived with one H214 in slot 4. Should it > be first... in slot 1 under the unibus in? Since I had a spare from ashley, > I put one in slot 1 and one in slot 4. I know the jumpers on the other > boards may not reflect 16K, but I figured it might change things. So if I > have just 8K set up, should the H214 be in slot 1, 4, or does it matter? I *think* I have full docs for it. Let me look it up in the next couple of days and I'll get back to you. I should at least have a module utilization for an MF11-L. > > 2) My front panel has an oddity (to me). If I select say address 10000 and > hit load addr the address lights respond correctly with 10000. I then hit > examine and get nothing (blank data lights). Whatever... but here's the > interesting part. If I keep pressing examine over and over again, the > address lights count up just like they should - except they skip bit zero > (the rightmost bit, either 0 or 15 whatever dec nomenclature is). I don't > mean that the rightmost bit just isn't displaying correctly, the actual > counting sequence acts like the rightmost bit is the 2nd light from the > right. I can tell it's not just a bulb problem because I don't have to hit > load addr twice to "move on", the count is smooth and sequential without the > rightmost bit. Any thoughts offhand? That is correct behavior. The 11's are 16 bit machines but are capable of byte addressing. When they're doing words, bit 0 is well 0. When they're doing bytes, bit 0 can be either to represent the correct byte. Front panel operations are done as words, hence bit 0 will be 0. -- TTFN - Guy From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 11:00:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:00:49 -0600 Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status References: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1109695841.9158.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <006001c51e80$382ce280$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Guy wrote... > That is correct behavior. The 11's are 16 bit machines but are capable > of byte addressing. When they're doing words, bit 0 is well 0. When > they're doing bytes, bit 0 can be either to represent the correct byte. > Front panel operations are done as words, hence bit 0 will be 0. DOH! Of course! Got it, and THANKS! Jay From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Mar 1 11:02:40 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:02:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> References: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > Just grabbed an ASR-33 on ePay.....LOCAL so no shipping damage (except what I induce)..... W at W! L@@K!! RARE!!!! and under $1800.00, I bet! ;} > > > I want to pick this up on the way home this evening.... If you are going to pick it up personally, in your own vehicle, just be careful with it and don't worry too much about the bolt - keep the typing unit upright and you'll be fine. It's not like a big disk drive that needs the heads locked. It also might make it easier on you to separate the typing unit from the pedestal... it's simple and makes it *so* much easier to move. Just a Thought.... Cheers John From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Tue Mar 1 11:07:12 2005 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:07:12 +0100 Subject: list server problems References: <00c601c51e1f$c727a210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4224A140.1060906@Vishay.com> Jay, Good luck for your fight against mailman! When you're done, please let me know: I disabled mails to my address because I currently have no time for my collection and anything related (sigh!), but today, I started to get mails from classiccmp again. I take this as an indication of your work, but might want to turn it off before I go on a biz trip tomorrow. Thanks! Andreas Jay West wrote: > In case anyone can't tell, I'm having some pretty severe problems with > the mailman software :\ All I can say is I'm working on it :\ > > Jay > -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 11:11:20 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: Duplicates... Message-ID: <1bd00d71bcf598.1bcf5981bd00d7@optonline.net> Jay Jay, Just just for for your your information information, I I am am getting getting two two of of each each of of YOUR YOUR mail mail messages messages. Other list members look OK..... From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 1 11:20:03 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:20:03 -0600 Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine References: Message-ID: <009e01c51e82$f645abb0$45406b43@66067007> Yes I know the feeling. I could not believe it when I first saw the IBM 548 Alphabetical Interpreter sitting in the corner of this guy's garage. It was a work of art and came with manuals and stack of punch cards. I also have a 029 that needs some TLC given to it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 10:54 PM Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine > > Can I fantasize? > > I'm reading some literature on IBM accounting machines and finding them > incredibly sexy. It would be a blast to actually program one and run > calculations through it. > > So I'd love to someday get my hands on a 402, 407, etc. I'm also now more > interested than ever in getting more unit record equipment. I've got a > 557 interpreter and an 026 punch. It'd be nice to have a sorter (082) but > what I'd really like is some sort of accounting machine or even a > calculator (fat chance of that). > > So, that being said, if anyone every comes across anything like this, I'm > buying :) > > Worst case, I'll build some punch card equipment from scratch. That would > be even more fun. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 11:21:15 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200503011636.j21Gaam2009408@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050301172115.49906.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well, I'm about to be 43, born June 21 1962 (exactly a year older than one of the other posters recently...). I first encountered Personal Computers in 1978 at a Star Trek Convention where I poured $20.00 into a .50 a game Star Trek Game hosted on a TRS-80 Model I. I asked the author for his address so I could buy a copy, but I guess he thought that a 17yo kid would never buy a $1000 computer. By January 1979, I was the proud owner of a TRS-80 Model I, Level I, 16k computer. The Manager of the store said I didn't need Level II. Turns out he was having problems moving Level I machines, and was stuck with this one.. LOL! Shortly thereafter, I upgraded to Level II and went to work for Radio Shack. I bought an expansion interface in 1980 and I think I have the singular honor of being the only person I know whose warranty was voided BEFORE I took the E/I home. Being that I worked in the store, I took it home BEFORE I had finished paying the layaway, installed the 32k of RAM I had bought mail-order, tested it... And brought the unit BACK to the store. I bought my first Floppy drive for $321.00 which was an MPI drive that ejected floppies like a toaster. We never got that drive to run... I then got a Wangtek Flippy Drive (Two sided by turning the floppy over, it had two sets of sector hole and write protect sensors) and a Percom Doubler. I worked for an LNW Dealer in NYC (Stoney Clove Computers) and coveted an LNW Model I for some time. I also worked for Lawrence S. Epstein Assoc. and sold Corvus Hard Drives for the Model I/II/III, etc... I almost bought a ZX-80 instead of the Flippy Drive at the Trenton Computer Festival in 1980... Over the years I've owned just about every American Micro Computer: Atari 400/800, Atari ST, Amiga 1000/500, Apple IIe, IIgs, IIc, Laser 128/128ex, MacPlus, Duo 230, PB 1400, Wallstreet G3, PowerComputing Power Center 132, Power 100, ZX-81 (built in an hour from the kit), TS1000, TS 1500, TS2068, ZX-Spectrum (American Prototype), Coco I, II & III, All sorts of PC Clones starting with an American XT (8mhz Turbo V20) and currently with a self-built P4 3.2ghz. I worked for Zebra Systems and Spectrum Projects and developed a lot of products for the Timex/Sinclair and Color Computer Community... At Zebra, I used and fell in love with an Imsai 8080 upgraded with a Z-80 board. I did a lot of "typesetting" with a program called "FancyFont" on CP/M using an FX-80 printer and eventually a Laserjet 500. I also co-authored the Coco Greeting Card Designer while at Zebra and worked on the SC-01 Votrax Speech Synthesiser implementation on the ZX-81/TS1000 and the TS-2068. Two of the dream computers I'd like to own is an Imsai and an LNW-80 Model II. I ran several BBS's in the mid 80's: Rainbow Magazine BBS (5 lines), Omni*Net BBS, Outpost-80 BBS, Computer Concepts BBS, Zebra Systems BBS using mostly TBBS on TRS-80's. I helped develop a fork of Connection-80 BBS in NYC called "Nybbles 80" BBS with Paul Oves and Stoney Clove Computers. I added threaded messaging, passwords, and color... I was a Novell CNE from 1989 - 1996 (I never upgraded to 4.0 and above). Today, I am a network engineer supporting MacOS X Servers... I can't imaging my life before I had computers in it... I still have my TRS-80 Model I which has been heavily modified using the TRS-80 and Other Mysteries Book by Dennis Kitsz. It has Lowercase, High Speed Mod, Alpha Joystick built in, Reset Switch, Internal speaker and Amp, Composite Video Out, better keyboard with keypad... It's not working right now, it won't recognize either of my E/I's. It was stolen twice and recovered due to all the mods. It was easily identifiable, and I got lucky to get it back twice when stolen. I just bought a Mac Mini to add to my collection, and am selling my G4 500 on eBay to fund it... I put $50 into the coupon for an AmigaONE, and may be getting one of those this year too. That's it! Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 11:25:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:25:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <200503011725.JAA18544@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" ---snip--- > >Does anybody have a good collection of Rainbow magazine? >There was a mediocre article in it (all the really GOOD stuff about >flat field lenses, etc. got edited out) > Hi To get a flat field, use a telephoto lens. The farther away you can get from the unit the better the depth of focus. It does require a tripod for a good image. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 11:27:15 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:27:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301092158.V34021@localhost> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Can I fantasize? Wipe up after. > So I'd love to someday get my hands on a 402, 407, etc. I'm also now more > interested than ever in getting more unit record equipment. I've got a > 557 interpreter and an 026 punch. It'd be nice to have a sorter (082) but > what I'd really like is some sort of accounting machine or even a > calculator (fat chance of that). Ed Grothus has a bunch of grey boxen. They're in the good building, and quite intact seeming. I could inquire for you if you're serious. Assume it'll take a year to talk him out of it (unless he says "take it"). You have a big truck and are willing to drive 1500 miles on a moment's notice, of course. They are LASL so are as likely customized as not. > Worst case, I'll build some punch card equipment from scratch. That would > be even more fun. Ugh you crazy! From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 1 11:39:43 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:39:43 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net><18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net><5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> <1109683597.10421.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00d801c51e85$a8110ae0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Has that been post-processed in any way? The quality's not > bad for a digital - no where near as grainy as most digital > cameras are. {Olympus D10} It could just be an aspect of certain Olympus products. I have an ancient Olympus digital (5.3 years old) that does fantastically well at multisecond times. John A. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Mar 1 11:41:56 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:41:56 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <20050228192442.E25645@localhost> References: <1109626484.8779.4.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> <20050228192442.E25645@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050301124018.0320b090@pop-server> >The AT&T 6300 was one of the first The 6300 was not fully compatible with the PC, close but not complete From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 1 11:46:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:46:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503011751.MAA25523@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this > is a really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it > looks like in real life? Amazing! Well, I've never been to Penguin Central. But I spent six months in Troms?, in northern Norway, and while they didn't look green to the naked eye, the auroras there were even more spectacular, in some respects, than what's in those pictures - in particular, they covered far more of the sky. The most spectacular time I recall, I was looking out a window and thus could see only about half the sky, but in that half, from the zenith to about some 30?-45? down towards the horizon was basically covered in these spectacular sheets of light. I don't know why they didn't look coloured. Perhaps because the light level was too low for much colour vision? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 1 11:52:10 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:52:10 -0500 Subject: Amiga Video - In-Reply-To: <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <4224ABCA.603@atarimuseum.com> I'd take a copy of the Amiga video certainly. CUrt cswiger wrote: >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >>Has anyone ordered and gotten this yet? Is it worthwhile? Is is it a >>really dry boring documentary? Just curious... >> >>Also anyone know the status of the BBS documentary, I ordered the DVD >>set back in late November as I recall, still nothing has shown up yet, >>did anyone else get theirs yet or maybe its still not done/shipping... >> >> >>Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? >> >> >> > >I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" >video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story >of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay >Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > >In unrelated news, this auction: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28022&item=8172345974&rd=1 >reminds me of the backlash again the PC revolution. One retrained old lady >drafter I worked with kept a copy pasted to her Autocad PC ;) > >--Chuck > > > > From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 1 11:52:53 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:52:53 -0500 Subject: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <010801c51e87$7f130ba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? I think this is the closest you'll find: Nova: "The KGB, the Computer and Me" http://shop.wgbh.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=1107 0&storeId=11051&catalogId=10051&langId=-1 John A. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 1 12:02:48 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:02:48 -0500 Subject: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD In-Reply-To: <010801c51e87$7f130ba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> <010801c51e87$7f130ba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4224AE48.5060200@atarimuseum.com> John -- Thanks dude, that sounds like its the same program I watched many years ago. Curt John Allain wrote: >>Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? >> >> > >I think this is the closest you'll find: >Nova: "The KGB, the Computer and Me" > >http://shop.wgbh.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=1107 >0&storeId=11051&catalogId=10051&langId=-1 > >John A. > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 12:13:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:13:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <200503011813.KAA18592@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" ---snip--- > >I don't know why they didn't look coloured. Perhaps because the light >level was too low for much colour vision? Hi Yes, that's the problem. I found that if one goes into normal light for a few minutes and then returns to the dark, you'll see much more color. I used this trick for comets. Comets are a nice aqua blue color. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 1 12:17:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 11:17:33 -0700 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4224B1BD.1060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >an, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this is a >really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it looks >like in real life? Amazing! > > Well the northern verson does have that green glow for real and some times other colors instead. Now if you keep seeing a greenish glow then its time to stop staring at vintage display devices 24/7 . :-) Ben alias woodelf. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 12:22:44 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:22:44 +0800 Subject: Kicked out Message-ID: Jay, Just to inform you that I was kicked out of the list, which I've since resubscribed again. I noted that other long gone ex-list members were resurrected accidentally too... Good luck. /wai-sun From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 1 12:30:51 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:30:51 -0800 Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine Message-ID: <4224B4DB.CEC51F57@rain.org> One book that has quite a bit of interesting information on these machines is "Punched Card Data processing" by Gustave Rath. I lucked out at the last TRW swap meet and found this along with "Industrial Calculating Devices" by Wilcox, Butler. The first book is available on ABE for about $9.00 or so, but the other book is a little more pricey at around $40.00. Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm reading some literature on IBM accounting machines and finding them > incredibly sexy. It would be a blast to actually program one and run > calculations through it. > > So I'd love to someday get my hands on a 402, 407, etc. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 12:32:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:32:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > The Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope > we can restore it someday. William wrote: > IBM. Tough stuff. Henk wrote: > Why is restoring IBM stuff so tough ? Suppose we try to restore the 360/30, and one of the hybrid SLT modules is bad. Where do you suppose we'll find a replacement? Most likely we would have to try to fabricate one, assuming that we could find or reverse-engineer a schematic for the particular module. By comparison, restoring a machine like a PDP-1 is a piece of cake, because all of the components are readily visible. Eric From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 12:42:43 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 02:42:43 +0800 Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:32:36 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith > > Suppose we try to restore the 360/30, and one of the hybrid SLT > modules is bad. Where do you suppose we'll find a replacement? Most As I'm totally alien to the world of IBM classic mainframes, what exactly is a hybrid SLT module? Is it those square rectangular thingies on a small module which is laid out in a matrix-like formation? What is inside? Potted discrete components or early ICs? /wai-sun From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 13:02:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:02:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be better distributed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Mar 1 13:11:27 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:11:27 +0100 Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <001401c51e92$7a217a40$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi Eric, I have the advantage of having the SLT module documentation of IBM. The level of integration is quit low, so replacing a transistor or diode is quite do-able. The SLT is btw very reliable, MTBF of 50 year. I am afraid that the CCROS in the /30 is a bigger problem then failing SLT. I visited the Computer History Museum a few years ago and suggested a restoration project like the IBM 1620. The reply was that the previous owner has cut some wiring to be certain that it would never run again (to prevent reading their coorperate data on the disks) Henk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:32 PM Subject: Re: Restoring IBM (was: Age) > I wrote: > > The Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA USA has a 360/30. I hope > > we can restore it someday. > > William wrote: > > IBM. Tough stuff. > > Henk wrote: > > Why is restoring IBM stuff so tough ? > > Suppose we try to restore the 360/30, and one of the hybrid SLT > modules is bad. Where do you suppose we'll find a replacement? Most > likely we would have to try to fabricate one, assuming that we could > find or reverse-engineer a schematic for the particular module. > > By comparison, restoring a machine like a PDP-1 is a piece of cake, > because all of the components are readily visible. > > Eric > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 13:08:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data General Nova 4/X, photos In-Reply-To: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > My digital camera seems to be losing focus, it bother me, because Mine is doing this too. It's an Olympus D-. I think it might have something to do with the auto-focus sensor (dirty? muddled?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 1 13:13:16 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:13:16 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: <20050301191315.FQKO18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>> Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. >>> 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB >>> 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC >>> 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC >>> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop >>> 5. You name it > >The first Compaq portable; it was notable for it's "portability" >but also it's high degree of IBM compatiblity (for the time). The Hyperion - the first PC portable (narrowly beat Compaq), cuter and smaller than the Compaq. Notable for it's *low* degree of IBM compatibility. [Actually it isn't *that* bad, but there are a few differences which prevent a number of poorly bahaved applications from running] - Deserves extra points for choosing an obscure, off- the wall floppy drive with reliability problems, and molding the bezel so that other drives could not be easily substituted. These two factors gave a bad taste to what was otherwise a very nice little machine. I'd also add the Portfolio, as the first MS-DOS palmtop, and possibly the T1000 as one of the earliest successful laptop format PCs. For strictly personal reasons, and moving away from "IBM PC's", I would vote for the Nabu 1600 - 8086 based, ran CP/M-86, MS-DOS, Xenix and eventually QNX, using serial consoles. I had about 1/2 dozen of them at one time, my first machine with a hard drive, and the first that ran a "real" multi-user system - but almost nobody has ever heard of them... Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 13:10:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:10:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050228180014.X20811@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > If I then try to DIR the disk the head backs up a track or so but can't > > seem to recalibrate to track 0. The head vibrates as if the drive is > > sending the signals to the stepper to retract the head but it only manages > > to move back a track or so each time I issue DIR. If I do it enough it > > eventually gets back to the stop position but it still gets sector errors. > > Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old > table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? Um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I understand the question either. This is a standard ISA IDE+floppy controller. Should I try an older one? Or hook this up to an oldr PC from the 1980s? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 13:15:54 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:15:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <36840.64.139.41.130.1109704554.squirrel@64.139.41.130> wai-sun wrote: > As I'm totally alien to the world of IBM classic mainframes, what > exactly is a hybrid SLT module? Is it those square rectangular > thingies on a small module which is laid out in a matrix-like > formation? A hybrid SLT module is one of the square metal cans, yes. SLT is "Solid Logic Technology". It replaced the earlier SMS (Standard Modular System) modules, which were more conventional circuit boards. > What is inside? Potted discrete components or early ICs? It's a hybrid circuit on a ceramic substrate. Resistors, capacitors, and inductors are printed/layered onto the substrate. Diodes and transistors are fabricated separately, directly bonded to the substrate, and glass encapsulated. The entire module is an "early IC", though not of the monolithic variety. For more details, see the IBM Journal of Research and Development, April 1964: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/082/ibmrd0802D.pdf SLT was replaced by MST (Monolithic System Technology) for the System/370 in the early 1970s, though SLT continued to be used in peripherals for some time: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/155/ibmrd1505F.pdf Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 13:23:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:23:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <001401c51e92$7a217a40$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <001401c51e92$7a217a40$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: <37673.64.139.41.130.1109704986.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Henk wrote: > I have the advantage of having the SLT module documentation > of IBM. That would certainly be handy! > The SLT is btw very reliable, MTBF of 50 year. MTBF is a statistical measure valid only within rated operating parameters of the device, including design life. It is not a measure of expected lifetime of any single unit. I don't know what the design life of an SLT module was, but it was probably less than 20 years. Therefore these 40 year old modules are at the very far end of the bathtub curve, and can no longer be expected to conform to an MTBF rating. By today's standards, an MTBF of 50 years for a small assembly of solid-state components would be extremely low. For the mid-1960s, it was quite good. > I am afraid that the CCROS in the /30 is a bigger problem then failing > SLT. Assuming that all the cards are physically present, getting it working will be a hassle, but should not be completely insurmountable. Someone wrote a microcode-level simulator of the 360/30 a few years back, but was never able to locate a copy of the microcode to run on it. :-( Eric From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 1 13:24:59 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:24:59 -0000 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <200503011925.j21JPAQ3016583@dewey.classiccmp.org> > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has > the story of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, > product launch, Jay > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. Add me to the probably growing list of people wanting a copy. If you can do what Sellam suggested and digitize it then it will be much more transportable with the added bonus of me not having to convert it to UK PAL-I signals :) cheers a From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 13:24:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:24:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: <4224B4DB.CEC51F57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > One book that has quite a bit of interesting information on these > machines is "Punched Card Data processing" by Gustave Rath. I lucked out > at the last TRW swap meet and found this along with "Industrial > Calculating Devices" by Wilcox, Butler. The first book is available on > ABE for about $9.00 or so, but the other book is a little more pricey at > around $40.00. I've got a number of good books on punched card equipment. But reading and doing are two entirely different things ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 13:29:24 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> > If I then try to DIR the disk the head backs up a track or so but can't >> > seem to recalibrate to track 0. The head vibrates as if the drive is >> > sending the signals to the stepper to retract the head but it only manages >> > to move back a track or so each time I issue DIR. If I do it enough it >> > eventually gets back to the stop position but it still gets sector errors. >> >> Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old >> table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? > >Um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I understand the question either. This is >a standard ISA IDE+floppy controller. Should I try an older one? Or hook >this up to an oldr PC from the 1980s? > Hi There is a table that one stores the step rate for the drive. You need to alter the value for slower drives, like your 8 inch. I forget where is it but it is in that lower area someplace ( 40:xxx or something ). It isn't a problem of the controller. It should work with any controller, you just need to find the table and change it. It has been a while since I've fiddle with it to make my drives step with less noise ( and wear ). Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 1 13:34:45 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:34:45 -0500 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <200503011925.j21JPAQ3016583@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503011925.j21JPAQ3016583@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4224C3D5.2000204@atarimuseum.com> I have a pretty good Vid capture card in my system, I can save as NTSC or PAL, save as a raw AVI, Mpeg-2, VideoCD or DVD, so if somebody wants to send the tape to me, I can make short work of it and post the file up onto one of my servers to D/L to anyone who wants to burn a ton of DVD's or I can just burn it to a master DVD and send it to whomever will make all of the DVD's Curt Adrian Graham wrote: >>I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" >>video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has >>the story of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, >>product launch, Jay >>Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. >> >> > >Add me to the probably growing list of people wanting a copy. If you can do >what Sellam suggested and digitize it then it will be much more >transportable with the added bonus of me not having to convert it to UK >PAL-I signals :) > >cheers > >a > > > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 1 13:42:52 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 13:42:52 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <4224C3D5.2000204@atarimuseum.com> References: <200503011925.j21JPAQ3016583@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503011925.j21JPAQ3016583@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301134145.06ef5da0@localhost> I'd like a copy (NTSC) if possible. I have friends that are into the Amiga experience. At 02:34 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I have a pretty good Vid capture card in my system, I can save as NTSC or >PAL, save as a raw AVI, Mpeg-2, VideoCD or DVD, so if somebody wants to >send the tape to me, I can make short work of it and post the file up onto >one of my servers to D/L to anyone who wants to burn a ton of DVD's or I >can just burn it to a master DVD and send it to whomever will make all of >the DVD's >Adrian Graham wrote: > >>>I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" >>>video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story >>>of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay >>>Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. >>> >> >>Add me to the probably growing list of people wanting a copy. If you can do >>what Sellam suggested and digitize it then it will be much more >>transportable with the added bonus of me not having to convert it to UK >>PAL-I signals :) > > >[Commentary] And, of course, the word "politics" is derived from >"POLY", meaning many, and "TICS", meaning small, blood sucking >insects. --Chris Clayton, USFMCNCG at ibmmail.com >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 1 13:48:30 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:48:30 -0000 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <4224C3D5.2000204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200503011948.j21Jmi0p017429@dewey.classiccmp.org> Curt wrote: > I have a pretty good Vid capture card in my system, I can > save as NTSC or PAL, save as a raw AVI, Mpeg-2, VideoCD or > DVD, so if somebody wants to send the tape to me, I can make That's brilliant Curt, you da man :) cheers a From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Mar 1 13:56:09 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:56:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301145112.M51192@wilma.widomaker.com> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > > Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be > better distributed. > Ok - it was a few bucks from a Salvation Army store. I Just got a $50 vhs player to start transfering tapes to DVD so I'll put that at the top of the list to do - then make some copies available for cost of media. --Chuck From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Mar 1 14:01:51 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:01:51 +0100 Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl><64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130><001401c51e92$7a217a40$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> <37673.64.139.41.130.1109704986.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <001b01c51e99$829109a0$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi Eric, > Someone wrote a microcode-level simulator of the 360/30 a few years > back, but was never able to locate a copy of the microcode to run on > it. :-( You are talking to that person. :-) Regards Henk From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Mar 1 09:43:46 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:43:46 +0100 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109691827.20910.7.camel@fortran> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop A lot of the early portable/laptop machines were interesting, x86 arch nonwithstanding. The coolest laptop I know is the IBM PS/2 p70... I'd be most interested if anyone had this or the p75 in Norway. Big ol' box, big, clear plasma monitor, very sexy design, and the PS/2 clicky keyboard (I'm typing on one right now (keyboard, that is, not portable)) -- Tore S Bekkedal From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 13:57:55 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:57:55 -0500 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) Message-ID: <1c6fa9e1c6cb8e.1c6cb8e1c6fa9e@optonline.net> > I have a pretty good Vid capture card in my system, I can save as > NTSC or PAL, save as a raw AVI, Mpeg-2, VideoCD or DVD, > so if somebody wants to send the tape to me, I can make short > work of it and post the file up onto one of my servers to D/L to > anyone who wants to burn a ton of DVD's or I can just burn > it to a master DVD and send it to whomever will make all of the DVD's Has anyone looked at the Copyright??? (if any....) From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 1 14:00:14 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:00:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <20050301145112.M51192@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20050301200014.18212.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> A copy of that sounds great... ummm, does someone own the copyright to this thing? --- cswiger wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > > > > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > > > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > > > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > > > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > > > > Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be > > better distributed. > > > > Ok - it was a few bucks from a Salvation Army store. I Just got a $50 > vhs player to start transfering tapes to DVD so I'll put that at > the top of the list to do - then make some copies available for cost > of media. > > --Chuck > > ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Mar 1 14:03:33 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:03:33 +0100 Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status In-Reply-To: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1109707414.20910.12.camel@fortran> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 10:26 -0600, Jay West wrote: > 2) My front panel has an oddity (to me). If I select say address 10000 and > hit load addr the address lights respond correctly with 10000. I then hit > examine and get nothing (blank data lights). Whatever... but here's the > interesting part. If I keep pressing examine over and over again, the > address lights count up just like they should - except they skip bit zero > (the rightmost bit, either 0 or 15 whatever dec nomenclature is). I don't > mean that the rightmost bit just isn't displaying correctly, the actual > counting sequence acts like the rightmost bit is the 2nd light from the > right. I can tell it's not just a bulb problem because I don't have to hit > load addr twice to "move on", the count is smooth and sequential without the > rightmost bit. Any thoughts offhand? (I'm not sure of this, yay, forth if I be mistaken, may the PDP-11 gurus, ye who lived and worked in the age wherein people talked thusly, step forth and smite me with a hardware referance manual) IIRC the PDP-11 is byte-addressed... It's counting up two bytes at a time. -- Tore S Bekkedal From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 14:15:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:15:55 -0600 Subject: Kicked out References: Message-ID: <010201c51e9b$79c8e3e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Wai-Sun wrote... > Just to inform you that I was kicked out of the list, which I've since > resubscribed again. I noted that other long gone ex-list members were > resurrected accidentally too... > > Good luck. > /wai-sun Actually your kicking was a lil intentional. Not because of any misconduct.... but apparently your mail server was having a very bad day. When mailman goes to deliver a post to all subscribers, it breaks it up into about 15 separate chunks of email addresses with a delivery agent assigned to each chunk. This is done for two reasons - one, delivery is faster that way, and two, because it minimizes the effect of people who have a bad mailserver on others. What will happen is if your mailserver is down or extremely slow (and this list is plagued by people who do have poor mailservers on average it seems), the delivery process hangs up trying to talk to the bad mailserver for a long time. This causes the remainder of the 15 person chunk to sit around on hold. Along those lines, I had posted that the mailman list membership migration tool doesn't migrate the "no mail" flag. So many of the accounts who had their "no mail" flag set, started getting emails from the list. In many cases, people do that when they want to unsubscribe but they are too lazy to really unsubscribe, or think it's going to be a short period of time, so they just set their no mail flag instead. When it got turned on again (because the migration doesn't preserve that flag), a ton of people who hadn't been on the list for years suddenly started getting email again, many of those email addresses were no longer valid. What this means is, I had to go through and find all the entries in the queue that were slow or no delivery and cancel their subscriptions. I didn't recognize your email address, so I figured it was one of those when in fact it was just that your mailserver was coughing just last night anyways. In addition, people may now start getting duplicates if they actually subscribed to both cctech and cctalk, with one or the other set to "no mail". Since that flag is gone, they will start receiving duplicates - one from each list. There is NO GOOD REASON to subscribe to both lists. They are the SAME LIST. If you subscribe to both, you WILL get double posts. Or more precisely, you'll get double posts of everything the moderator deems as being on-topic and single posts of everything the moderator deams as off-topic. Some people get around this by setting the nomail flag on one or the other subscription. I have no clue why people would want to do this but maybe I'm missing something. Anyways... sorry for the uncerimonious unsub Wai-Sun! Let me know if you have any more trouble. Now I gotta figure out why HtDig (what makes the list archives searchable) is choking on it's run every night on cctalk. But that's getting put off for a day, I'm gonna go spend the rest of the day with my 11/45 :) Jay From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 1 14:16:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:16:02 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - In-Reply-To: <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050301142204.29713.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <42247D83.6080808@atarimuseum.com> <20050301113818.D25928@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <4224CD82.6040301@mdrconsult.com> cswiger wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >>Has anyone ordered and gotten this yet? Is it worthwhile? Is is it a >>really dry boring documentary? Just curious... >> >>Also anyone know the status of the BBS documentary, I ordered the DVD >>set back in late November as I recall, still nothing has shown up yet, >>did anyone else get theirs yet or maybe its still not done/shipping... >> >> >>Lastly, does anyone know if The Cuckoo's Egg is available on video??? >> > > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. I'd definitely like to have a copy. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 14:21:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:21:29 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... References: <1bd00d71bcf598.1bcf5981bd00d7@optonline.net> Message-ID: <014101c51e9c$40f29ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> dvcorbin at optonline.net writes that he's getting duplicate posts. He's getting duplicate posts because he's subscribed to both lists, cctech and cctalk. Many people seem to have done this, but set one of their list subscriptions to "no mail". The "no mail" flag setting was lost in the migration because the memberlist migration tools don't preserve that particular setting (or the password). As a result, if anyone is getting duplicate posts, please verify first if you are subbed to both cctech and cctalk. If you are, please unsub from one or the other. OR, if you must, at least set the "no mail" flag on one of them. Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 1 14:23:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:23:28 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova 4/X, photos In-Reply-To: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> References: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> Message-ID: <1109708608.10421.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 19:38 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > My digital camera seems to be losing focus, it bother me, because > I absolutely love this camera. Possibly just crap on the front of the camera which is confusing the hell out of the autofocus? It used to happen to the Fuji camera I had before my current one (which used to get hauled along to all sorts of wartime sites and subjected to dust, dirt, water and who-knows-what) > "spotting" camera. I honestly don't know what battery life is; > it's weeks-to-months My newer camera's like that; the battery lasts for ages (I use it an awful lot, and it still lasts a couple of weeks between charges). The Fuji used to eat batteries like there was no tomorrow, though. Nice pictures of the Nova, by the way :) cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 14:23:40 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:23:40 -0500 Subject: Kicked out Message-ID: <1c84f1c1c85243.1c852431c84f1c@optonline.net> > If you subscribe to both, you WILL get double > posts. Or more precisely, you'll get double > posts of everything the moderator deems as > being on-topic and single posts of everything > the moderator deams as off-topic. Of course, if one auto-archive the ccTech list, then they get (in theory) a good archive of all of the topical information. Interactive reading is done on the ccTalk list. This technique works good for me, especially if a period of time elapses where I dont have the time to view and make manual decisions on all of the posts... From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 1 14:25:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:25:25 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Amiga A2410 graphics adapter Message-ID: <4224CFB5.50403@mdrconsult.com> I'm looking for the above card. It's the hi-res video card for the A3000UX (and I think A2500UX) Amigas. As far as I know, it only runs in Amiga UNIX. If you have one to trade, sell or give away, let me know off-list, and how much you want for it. I'm in Austin, Texas, US, ZIP code 78748. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 14:29:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:29:41 -0600 Subject: 11/45 front panel question Message-ID: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> ok, two questions. In at least the docs I have (11/45 service manual, user manual, and handbook), I can't find a clear description of how to toggle a program into memory. I'm assuming that when you enter an address in the front panel switches and hit "load addrs", that the data lights aren't supposed to automatically show the data value at that location. I'm assuming you must hit "exam" first. Is this correct? If not, I'd be autoincrementing and seeing the next data value. Can someone give me a good example of just how to enter two or three words starting at a given location? I think I can figure this out, but I'd rather be sure so I don't skip over something that isn't working correctly. Second, since it's been over 20 years since I did any MACRO-11 programming, could someone post a simple few line machine code program I can enter and run to see if the machine will even go into execute mode correctly. Maybe something that just adds two constants and stores them in another memory location. Once I'm sure the machine is working, you can bet I'll dig back into MACRO-11. For now, I'm just looking for basic store and run sanity check. Thanks for any advice/help! Jay From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 14:31:26 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:31:26 -0500 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... Message-ID: <1c8c6f61c90fff.1c90fff1c8c6f6@optonline.net> > He's getting duplicate posts because he's subscribed to both > lists, cctech and cctalk. Jay for the specific post I was mentioning the "To:" field is set to ccTalk at classiccmp.org in BOTH copies. NOT one copy addressed to ccTalk and the other to ccTech..... From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 14:32:06 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:32:06 -0600 Subject: Kicked out References: <1c84f1c1c85243.1c852431c84f1c@optonline.net> Message-ID: <017c01c51e9d$bc358510$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> dvcorbin wrote... > Of course, if one auto-archive the ccTech list, then they get (in theory) > a good archive of all of the topical information. Interactive reading is > done on the ccTalk list. > > This technique works good for me, especially if a period of time elapses > where I dont have the time to view and make manual decisions on all of the > posts... Ok, I can buy that argument :) If you're getting double posts, I'm assuming that one comes from cctalk and one from cctech. Can you check to be sure? Perhaps the way your message rules are set up (to do the autoarchive of cctech) they reference something about "huey", as the host name is now "dewey". Just a guess. Let me know what you find! Jay From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 14:34:52 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:34:52 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... In-Reply-To: <014101c51e9c$40f29ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <1bd00d71bcf598.1bcf5981bd00d7@optonline.net> <014101c51e9c$40f29ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Are you saying that cctalk gets ALL posts? If so that might explain the occasional complaint that "are off topic" I get on the cctalk list. Some people don't realize which list they are responding to. On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:21:29 -0600, Jay West wrote: > dvcorbin at optonline.net writes that he's getting duplicate posts. > > He's getting duplicate posts because he's subscribed to both lists, cctech > and cctalk. > > Many people seem to have done this, but set one of their list subscriptions > to "no mail". The "no mail" flag setting was lost in the migration because > the memberlist migration tools don't preserve that particular setting (or > the password). > > As a result, if anyone is getting duplicate posts, please verify first if > you are subbed to both cctech and cctalk. If you are, please unsub from one > or the other. OR, if you must, at least set the "no mail" flag on one of > them. > > Jay West > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 14:43:54 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:43:54 -0500 Subject: 11/45 front panel question References: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009201c51e9f$630a9b40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > ok, two questions. In at least the docs I have (11/45 service manual, user > manual, and handbook), I can't find a clear description of how to toggle a > program into memory. > > I'm assuming that when you enter an address in the front panel switches and > hit "load addrs", that the data lights aren't supposed to automatically show > the data value at that location. I'm assuming you must hit "exam" first. Is > this correct? If not, I'd be autoincrementing and seeing the next data > value. Can someone give me a good example of just how to enter two or three > words starting at a given location? I think I can figure this out, but I'd > rather be sure so I don't skip over something that isn't working correctly. > > Second, since it's been over 20 years since I did any MACRO-11 programming, > could someone post a simple few line machine code program I can enter and > run to see if the machine will even go into execute mode correctly. Maybe > something that just adds two constants and stores them in another memory > location. Jay, I am going to post an email that Guy sent me when I was getting my 11/40 up and running. We can call it "PDP-11 program toggling for dummies" Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 14:53:56 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:53:56 -0500 Subject: 11/45 front panel question, AKA "Program Toggling for Dummies" - LONGish References: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009701c51ea0$c9c049b0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> I apologize for the lengthy nature of this email, but I think it will be beneficial.... > Jay said: > ok, two questions. In at least the docs I have (11/45 service manual, user > manual, and handbook), I can't find a clear description of how to toggle a > program into memory. > > I'm assuming that when you enter an address in the front panel switches and > hit "load addrs", that the data lights aren't supposed to automatically show > the data value at that location. I'm assuming you must hit "exam" first. Is > this correct? If not, I'd be autoincrementing and seeing the next data > value. Can someone give me a good example of just how to enter two or three > words starting at a given location? I think I can figure this out, but I'd > rather be sure so I don't skip over something that isn't working correctly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jay, here's an excerpt from an email exchange I had with Guy back when I was getting my 11/40 up and running. This should help you. It helped me. Guy >> Halt. Load address 01000. Deposit a "walking" one's pattern. Load Guy >> address 01000 and examine. Make sure that all the bits are set Guy >> properly. Ashley > What's a walking ones pattern? Guy >> 0, 1, 2, 4, 10, 20, etc. (octal of course). Ashley > So, using the switch registers... Ashley > Ashley > Octal Binary (switches on panel) Ashley > 000000 000 000 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 000001 000 000 000 000 000 001 Ashley > 000002 000 000 000 000 000 010 Ashley > 000004 000 000 000 000 000 100 Ashley > 000010 000 000 000 000 001 000 Ashley > 000020 000 000 000 000 010 000 Ashley > 000040 000 000 000 000 100 000 Ashley > 000100 000 000 000 001 000 000 Ashley > 000200 000 000 000 010 000 000 Ashley > 000400 000 000 000 100 000 000 Ashley > 001000 000 000 001 000 000 000 Ashley > 002000 000 000 010 000 000 000 Ashley > 004000 000 000 100 000 000 000 Ashley > 010000 000 001 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 020000 000 010 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 040000 000 100 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 100000 001 000 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 200000 010 000 000 000 000 000 Ashley > 400000 100 000 000 000 000 000 Ashley > Ashley > Just wanted to spell it out to make sure I'm speaking your language. Ashley > You want me to deposit each one of these values, one at a time, at Ashley > address 01000, then examine it to make sure it's set to what I told Ashley > it to set it to. Right? Or should I just start depositing these at Ashley > address 001000 and let it deposit each value at consecutive addresses, Ashley > then since the examine will also read consecutive addresses (I think) Ashley > each time I press the examine switch, it will just read them all back to Ashley > me in sequence? > Guy >> First things first. Make sure that memory works. Try the walking bit Guy >> pattern. I'd also check to make sure that *all* of the cards are seated Guy >> properly. The jumper between the CPU and the first memory backplane can Guy >> come loose easily. Make sure it's in properly. Guy >> Guy >> Once it appears that you can talk to memory, try loading the following Guy >> program: Guy >> 1000 5000 Guy >> 5200 Guy >> 6100 Guy >> 0005 Guy >> 0775 Guy >> load address 1000 & start. You should see a bit rotate around on the Guy >> data LEDs. > Ashley > Again, let me spell it out and tell me if I'm understanding you.... Ashley > Ashley > set switch registers to 001000, press load address. Ashley > set switch registers to 005000, press deposit (the system will deposit Ashley > 005000 at address 001000) Ashley > set switch registers to 005200, press deposit (the system will deposit Ashley > 005200 at the next address) Ashley > set switch registers to 006100, press deposit Ashley > etc... Ashley > After I deposit the 000775, then I set the switch registers to 001000, press Ashley > load address, then press start. Ashley > Then I should see the rotating bit. Ashley > Ashley > Correct???? > Guy >> Correct. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 14:52:41 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 04:52:41 +0800 Subject: Kicked out In-Reply-To: <010201c51e9b$79c8e3e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010201c51e9b$79c8e3e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:15:55 -0600, Jay West wrote: > misconduct.... but apparently your mail server was having a very bad day. OMG! If Gmail can't handle our little mailing list (with it's 4000+ node Linux cluster), I don't know what can! :-) /wai-sun From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 15:00:47 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:00:47 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... References: <1bd00d71bcf598.1bcf5981bd00d7@optonline.net><014101c51e9c$40f29ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006501c51ea1$be7936b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > Are you saying that cctalk gets ALL posts? If so that might explain > the occasional complaint that "are off topic" I get on the cctalk > list. Some people don't realize which list they are responding to. Yes, cctalk gets ALL posts. Once again.... Anything posted to cctech is automatically and instantaneously cross posted by the server to cctech. Anything posted to cctalk is likewise cross posted to cctalk, except it goes through moderation. That way, if you subsribe to cctalk only, you will never miss a post to either list. You will get all posts people make on either list. If you subscribe to just cctech, people on cctech AND cctalk will see your posts. But anything people post on cctalk that the moderator deems as "off-topic", will not get copied to cctech. So, for on-topic posts you will get the exact same posts no matter which list you join. But if you're on cctech you won't get off-topic posts made to cctalk. As a result I can see no normal reason that someone would subscribe to both lists since they carry the exact same posts automatically. However, Dave brought up an interesting example, where his mail client automatically puts cctech in a separate folder. Then when he gets behind he can catch up on on-topic stuff and skip the off-topic posts. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 15:01:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:01:58 -0600 Subject: 11/45 front panel question References: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <009201c51e9f$630a9b40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <008c01c51ea1$e892cd30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ashley wrote... > Jay, I am going to post an email that Guy sent me when I was getting my > 11/40 up and running. We can call it "PDP-11 program toggling for > dummies" When it comes to the 11/45, I definitely qualify as a dummy :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 15:06:35 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:06:35 -0600 Subject: DG board ID? Message-ID: <001101c51ea2$9c40e100$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I just picked up a board at the local scrap dealer from his junque bin, as I recognized it as a DG board of roughly the right size & shape for my Eclipse machines. It's designated "107-000261-10". Any idea what this may be? Two small ribbon connectors and a pile of 8K roms make me thing part of a cpu cardset. Jay West From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 1 15:07:25 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:07:25 -0600 Subject: Build your own Apple I article Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost> Quoting from the Wired article: "A new book tackles modern computers in a uniquely hands-on way -- by getting the reader to build a replica of one of the most famous personal computers of all: the Apple I." "Apple I Replica Creation: Back to the Garage by Tom Owad explores the architecture of modern digital computers through the process of building an Apple I replica for about $100." Wired News, http://wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,66742,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_3 "The book focuses on the basic knowledge of digital electronics required to understand how the computer does its most basic work. Many diagrams and photographs illustrate specific tasks or functions. But the book is not simply a cookbook directing readers to "insert tab A into slot B." It attempts to teach the fundamentals of digital computer design along the way. The "Digital Logic" chapter, for example, which can be downloaded as a sample chapter (.pdf), shows how to build "and," "or" and "not" gates from resistors, diodes and LEDs. Owad said building microcomputers is within many readers' grasp, if they have the appropriate guide. "Apple I Replica Creation attempts to be that guide," Owad said. " The Woz himself wrote the Forward to the book. -T [Authors] "90% of everything is crap" --T. Sturgeon "111% of crap is everything" --L. Wall --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 15:14:58 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: 11/45 front panel question References: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><009201c51e9f$630a9b40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <008c01c51ea1$e892cd30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002501c51ea3$b9b6bab0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > Jay, I am going to post an email that Guy sent me when I was getting my > > 11/40 up and running. We can call it "PDP-11 program toggling for > > dummies" > When it comes to the 11/45, I definitely qualify as a dummy :) > > Jay Don't feel bad. I was an 11/40 dummy (and still kinda am). In my past life 28+ years ago, I lived on the 11/40 via terminals in the next room, so I never got to play with toggling in a program. When I got my 11/40 last year, I had to learn about the hardware and how to hook up everything and operate the front panel, etc. It's been a fun learning experience. Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 15:09:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:09:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > There is a table that one stores the step rate > for the drive. You need to alter the value for > slower drives, like your 8 inch. I forget where > is it but it is in that lower area someplace > ( 40:xxx or something ). It isn't a problem > of the controller. It should work with any controller, > you just need to find the table and change it. > It has been a while since I've fiddle with it > to make my drives step with less noise ( and wear ). OIC. Are there any drives that don't require such a modification of the stepper table? I'm not sure what drives I'm using. They're mounted in an enclosure and I'm too lazy to dismount them to check. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 1 15:18:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <20050301145112.M51192@wilma.widomaker.com> from cswiger at "Mar 1, 5 02:56:09 pm" Message-ID: <200503012118.NAA19228@floodgap.com> > > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > > > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > > > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > > > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > > Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be > > better distributed. > Ok - it was a few bucks from a Salvation Army store. I Just got a $50 > vhs player to start transfering tapes to DVD so I'll put that at > the top of the list to do - then make some copies available for cost > of media. If you're keeping a list, please add me to it as well. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by 1; ----- From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 1 15:20:11 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:20:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Build your own Apple I article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost> Message-ID: <20050301212011.14796.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> I'm pretty sure Tom O. is on this list. Shameless promotion: my favorite part of the book is pages 98-100, which contains a product review written by me. :) --- Tom Peters wrote: > Quoting from the Wired article: > "A new book tackles modern computers in a uniquely hands-on way -- by > getting the reader to build a replica of one of the most famous personal > computers of all: the Apple I." > > "Apple I Replica Creation: Back to the Garage by Tom Owad explores the > architecture of modern digital computers through the process of building an > Apple I replica for about $100." > > Wired News, > http://wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,66742,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_3 > > "The book focuses on the basic knowledge of digital electronics required to > understand how the computer does its most basic work. Many diagrams and > photographs illustrate specific tasks or functions. > > But the book is not simply a cookbook directing readers to "insert tab A > into slot B." It attempts to teach the fundamentals of digital computer > design along the way. > > The "Digital Logic" chapter, for example, which can be downloaded as a > sample chapter (.pdf), shows how to build "and," "or" and "not" gates from > resistors, diodes and LEDs. > > Owad said building microcomputers is within many readers' grasp, if they > have the appropriate guide. > > "Apple I Replica Creation attempts to be that guide," Owad said. " > > The Woz himself wrote the Forward to the book. > > -T > > > > > [Authors] "90% of everything is crap" --T. Sturgeon "111% of crap is > everything" --L. Wall > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43??? 7' 17.2" N by 88??? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA > > > > > > ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 1 15:20:49 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:20:49 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) References: <200503012118.NAA19228@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <016101c51ea4$8bbc7220$45406b43@66067007> I would like one for the museum. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) >> > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" >> > > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the >> > > story >> > > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay >> > > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > >> > Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be >> > better distributed. > >> Ok - it was a few bucks from a Salvation Army store. I Just got a $50 >> vhs player to start transfering tapes to DVD so I'll put that at >> the top of the list to do - then make some copies available for cost >> of media. > > If you're keeping a list, please add me to it as well. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by > 1; ----- > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 15:20:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:20:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... In-Reply-To: <006501c51ea1$be7936b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > Anything posted to cctech is automatically and instantaneously cross posted > by the server to cctech. Anything posted to cctalk is likewise cross posted > to cctalk, except it goes through moderation. That way, if you subsribe to > cctalk only, you will never miss a post to either list. You will get all > posts people make on either list. Um, you fudged this. Should read: Anything posted to cctech is automatically and instantaneously cross posted by the server to ccTALK. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 15:22:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:22:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Build your own Apple I article In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Peters wrote: > Owad said building microcomputers is within many readers' grasp, if they > have the appropriate guide. > > "Apple I Replica Creation attempts to be that guide," Owad said. " > > The Woz himself wrote the Forward to the book. And Tom is a member of our little group here ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 1 15:29:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:29:02 -0500 Subject: New Day - New Finds! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050301162902.009c1b20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> One of my sources got a new load today. I went by and checked it out and found a HP 1000 F Series computer. It's been pretty badly beaten up but it has a full load of cards so I'll probably use it for parts. Also found a double sized battery backup/power fail battery for a HP 1000. Also found a weird set of black boxs that appear to be made for aircraft use. They're all marked Ampex DCRSi. One is marked Transport and has a large tape drive built in the top of it. The others are marked Recorder, Reproduce and then a Power Supply. Does anyone know anything about these? They're very unusual looking. Also found a pile of NIB Intel AboveBoards for the PC AT, a bunch of various cards with some interesting ICs that I'll pull and add to the parts bins, a Tektronix 4041 computer and two Tektronix 4041DDU Disk Drive Units for the 4041. But one of the nicest finds was a optical paper tape reader that can be set to read 5, 6 or 8 level PT. Changing the 5, 6, 8 switch raises and lowers different sets of guide pins in the reader mechanism and moves the PT left or right so that it lines up with the drive sprocket. The front says Data Precision DP203 and the back says Membrain AH30218. There have been some Membrain computer(?) cards showing up out there so I'm guessing that this came off of some kind of Membrain computer but was actually made by DP. Does anyone have any info on it? Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 1 15:32:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:32:44 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware References: <1109691827.20910.7.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <16932.57212.243000.563442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tore" == Tore S Bekkedal writes: Tore> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: >> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop Tore> A lot of the early portable/laptop machines were interesting, Tore> x86 arch nonwithstanding. Tore> The coolest laptop I know is the IBM PS/2 p70... I'd be most Tore> interested if anyone had this or the p75 in Norway. Did you ever see the PowerPC laptop? I don't know anything about it, but I saw one in the hands of an IBM Zurich R&D Lab person. Looked just like a plain old Thinkpad, but it ran Unix and I'm 95% sure it had a PowerPC, not an x86 processor. Oh yes, it also had a French keyboard to mess up the rest of the world, with the letters in the wrong place... :-) paul From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Mar 1 15:26:20 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:26:20 -0500 (est) Subject: New Retro Game programming book... Message-ID: <200503012126.QAA25994@wordstock.com> Retro Game Programming: Unleashed for the Masses http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/mag.dyn/News/9013.html Cheers, Bryan Pope From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 15:37:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:37:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: > Why is restoring IBM stuff so tough ? Tough as in built well. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 1 15:40:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:40:34 -0500 Subject: 11/45 front panel question References: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <16932.57682.510000.659026@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> ok, two questions. In at least the docs I have (11/45 service Jay> manual, user manual, and handbook), I can't find a clear Jay> description of how to toggle a program into memory. Jay> I'm assuming that when you enter an address in the front panel Jay> switches and hit "load addrs", that the data lights aren't Jay> supposed to automatically show the data value at that Jay> location. I'm assuming you must hit "exam" first. Is this Jay> correct? If not, I'd be autoincrementing and seeing the next Jay> data value. Can someone give me a good example of just how to Jay> enter two or three words starting at a given location? I think I Jay> can figure this out, but I'd rather be sure so I don't skip over Jay> something that isn't working correctly. The way it works is this: - Load address sets the address you're working from - Exam shows what's in the working address - Deposit changes the contents at the working address - If you do exam and exam again, then the second exam increments the working address first. - Ditto on deposit and deposit - However, exam then deposit don't change the working address So, for example - load address 1000 - exam exam exam shows you locations 1000, 1002, 1004, and - load address 1000 - exam - deposit 20 looks at location 1000, then changes location 1000 (NOT 1002) to 20. Jay> Second, since it's been over 20 years since I did any MACRO-11 Jay> programming, could someone post a simple few line machine code Jay> program I can enter and run to see if the machine will even go Jay> into execute mode correctly. Maybe something that just adds two Jay> constants and stores them in another memory location. Here's a lovely hack -- a one instruction program. Load it at the last location of your memory. For example, in a machine with 28 kW or more, load it into 157776. The instruction word is 014747. Deposit it and start it. If the machine is working right, you'll end up with 014747 in all your memory from 157776 down to zero. An exercise for the student is why this is so. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 15:43:26 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:43:26 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... References: Message-ID: <002a01c51ea7$b35fd120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > Um, you fudged this. Should read: > > Anything posted to cctech is automatically and instantaneously cross > posted by the server to ccTALK. Oh hell. You're right. You know, I've noticed more and more that my spelling is going downhill, I can't seem to express an idea clearly in an email, I ramble, can't concentrate, and to top it all off I've had to acquire some reading glasses. Good Lord, I'm only 40! Surely with all the intelligence on this list we can find a way to reverse the polarity on the clock so it runs backwards *sigh* Jay West From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 1 15:43:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:43:27 -0600 Subject: C Users Journal archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4224E1FF.7070205@oldskool.org> David V. Corbin wrote: > > I have a CD of >>> I am going crazy trying to find > the Journal somewhere.... >>> the text of an article in > I will try to look >>> the October 1992 issue of > for it tomorrow >>> "The C Users Journal" ... Okay, I'll bite: What email program are you using that quotes like that?? (BTW, someone on this list already helped me -- thanks again!) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 15:51:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:51:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <64197.64.139.41.130.1109701956.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: > Suppose we try to restore the 360/30, and one of the hybrid SLT > modules is bad. Where do you suppose we'll find a replacement? >From another card. There were not that many types of SLT (unlike the later families). I woudn't be suprised if you could still get them from IBM. SLT continued to be used in new designs after the other families came into being. > Most > likely we would have to try to fabricate one, assuming that we could > find or reverse-engineer a schematic for the particular module. Certainly one could fabricate SLT. SOTs and surface mount resistors on a PC board. As you know, there isn't much to an SLT module. If you had to fabricate one, you would be better off fabricating a bunch at one time on one board, then chopping it into the individual circuits.. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 1 15:36:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:36:17 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apple I article In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050301163617.009ce310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:22 PM 3/1/05 -0800, Sellam wrote: >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Peters wrote: > >> Owad said building microcomputers is within many readers' grasp, if they >> have the appropriate guide. >> >> "Apple I Replica Creation attempts to be that guide," Owad said. " >> >> The Woz himself wrote the Forward to the book. > >And Tom is a member of our little group here ;) Doesn't that mean that we all get a free copy? :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 1 15:46:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: UPDATE: Texas Instruments 990 business computer In-Reply-To: References: <20050301085055.59202.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050301164655.009c9530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:18 AM 3/1/05 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, steven stengel wrote: > >> This system is in Los Angeles. Anyone want to pick it up for $750? Must >> take all of it! ROTFL! Tell them to move the decimal two places to the left! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 15:53:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Retro Game programming book... In-Reply-To: <200503012126.QAA25994@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > Retro Game Programming: Unleashed for the Masses > > http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/mag.dyn/News/9013.html Cool book, highly recommended. Earl (the author) was a speaker at the last VCF. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 15:57:53 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Sellam asks about 8-inch disk drives: > Are there any drives that don't require such a modification of the stepper > table? I'm not sure what drives I'm using. They're mounted in an > enclosure and I'm too lazy to dismount them to check. IIRC, half-height 8-inch drives typically supported much faster step rates than the full-height drives. Eric From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 16:01:27 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:01:27 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... In-Reply-To: <002a01c51ea7$b35fd120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002a01c51ea7$b35fd120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Dilithium Crystals are always the answer. -dhbarr. On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:43:26 -0600, Jay West wrote: > You wrote... > > Um, you fudged this. Should read: > > > > Anything posted to cctech is automatically and instantaneously cross > > posted by the server to ccTALK. > > Oh hell. You're right. You know, I've noticed more and more that my spelling > is going downhill, I can't seem to express an idea clearly in an email, I > ramble, can't concentrate, and to top it all off I've had to acquire some > reading glasses. Good Lord, I'm only 40! Surely with all the intelligence on > this list we can find a way to reverse the polarity on the clock so it runs > backwards *sigh* > > Jay West > > From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 16:04:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:04:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <36840.64.139.41.130.1109704554.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: > It's a hybrid circuit on a ceramic substrate. Resistors, capacitors, > and inductors are printed/layered onto the substrate. Diodes and > transistors are fabricated separately, directly bonded to the > substrate, and glass encapsulated. Were caps and inductors really all that common in SLT? I don't think they were. Wasn't one of the goals of SLT to pretty much stick to just transistors and resistors? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 1 16:12:58 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:12:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050301140616.Y2559@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old > >> table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? > > Hi > There is a table that one stores the step rate > for the drive. You need to alter the value for > slower drives, like your 8 inch. I forget where > is it but it is in that lower area someplace > ( 40:xxx or something ). It isn't a problem > of the controller. It should work with any controller, > you just need to find the table and change it. > It has been a while since I've fiddle with it > to make my drives step with less noise ( and wear ). > Dwight While the default table is often in low memory, sometimes it is even in ROM. It is pointed to by INT1Eh. To alter values in the table, copy it, alter the copy, then repoint INT1Eh to point to the new address. Be sure to restore INT1Eh when you are done, or INT13h may encounter serious difficulties. If you've got a copy of the PC Technical Reference Manual, most of the disk parameter table is documented right after INT13h. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 1 16:16:35 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:16:35 -0600 Subject: web page translation tool In-Reply-To: <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301161534.00c20320@localhost> http://www.degraeve.com/translator.php Way off topic. Hint: You have to use the full address including http:// in the input box on the page above. [Religion] Hubbard, L. Ron (1911-1986) If you really want to make a million . . . the quickest way is to start your own religion. [1947] Speech to the Eastern Science Fiction association at Newark, New Jersey --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 16:24:12 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:24:12 -0500 Subject: web page translation tool Message-ID: <1cf411b1cf8647.1cf86471cf411b@optonline.net> > http://www.degraeve.com/translator.php > > Way off topic. > Hint: You have to use the full address including http:// in the > input box on the page above. > It is missing PaperTape can Punched Card formats [then it would be on-topic] btw: I literally fell of my chair for about 10 minutes.... From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 1 16:28:01 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:28:01 -0600 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on the front- only $11 (and up) http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ [Computing] You are in a twisty little passage of standards, all conflicting. --Michael Meissner, meissner at osf.org --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 16:39:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:39:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301143807.H1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > three 941 auxiliary storage units (providing storage of an additional 16 > 10-digit words!), one would require a total of 48 AMPS!!! One machine > alone required 33A. Wow! Umm yeah and not at 110V. You'll need 440V from a pole and a transformer and all that on a concrete slab. Then you'll have to extract all the heat from the room. My little DB Nova system raises the room temp 15 degrees easily, and it's got a leaky garage door. Scale that... From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 16:42:06 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:42:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPDATE: Texas Instruments 990 business computer In-Reply-To: <003301c51e77$49675f20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003301c51e77$49675f20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050301144137.M1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > That's a very nice system. However, it's definitely NOT worth $750.00. Hey wait! I thought everyone's vintage computer was invaluable! Oops, wrong "in"... From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 16:43:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:43:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> References: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20050301144242.V1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > Since I dont carry my reference manuals with me, can anyone post the "proper" size for the hold-down bolt(s)?????? > > I want to pick this up on the way home this evening.... If it will be carried in a position where a person would be comfortable, it will too. Back seat of a car, etc. Store it flat and it'll be OK without the shipping screw. The screw is critical when it migt be tipped over, especially tipped over and banged! From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 1 16:49:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:49:52 -0500 Subject: (no subject) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> Message-ID: <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Peters writes: Tom> I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on Tom> the front- only $11 (and up) Tom> http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer Tom> More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ Cute... Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with the text: C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 :-) Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" that produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: (.)(.) IKF4084 paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 1 16:49:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:49:28 -0500 Subject: Anybody need a battery for a Dell laptop? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050301174928.0091fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Found today. Still wrapped up like new but can't test since it doesn't fit my Dell. Dell PN 32499. This is supposed to fit the secondary compartment on the Latitude LS, LX and M models. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 16:54:19 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:54:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503012254.OAA18686@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> There is a table that one stores the step rate >> for the drive. You need to alter the value for >> slower drives, like your 8 inch. I forget where >> is it but it is in that lower area someplace >> ( 40:xxx or something ). It isn't a problem >> of the controller. It should work with any controller, >> you just need to find the table and change it. >> It has been a while since I've fiddle with it >> to make my drives step with less noise ( and wear ). > >OIC. > >Are there any drives that don't require such a modification of the stepper >table? I'm not sure what drives I'm using. They're mounted in an >enclosure and I'm too lazy to dismount them to check. > Hi For 8 inchers, I doubt that their are any that are fast enough for the standard 5-1/4 step rates. There was a program out there that modifies the step rates. I know it is on the web someplace. As I recall, it would try the full span of steps available and watch for errors. I would guess that this would work for your 8 inchers, even though, it was inteneded to be used to optimize the steps for faster drives. Maybe one of the others can remember what it is called. Of course, you are always the one that states that one should do a good google search first ;) Dwight From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 16:55:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050301124018.0320b090@pop-server> References: <1109626484.8779.4.camel@kendall.jdfogg.com> <20050228192442.E25645@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050301124018.0320b090@pop-server> Message-ID: <20050301145452.S1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Gene Ehrich wrote: >> The AT&T 6300 was one of the first > > The 6300 was not fully compatible with the PC, close but not complete Sorry, didn't meran to claim that for it, bad sentence. It was one of the first to use a Phoenix BIOS. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 1 16:59:04 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:59:04 -0600 Subject: Cool Nerd Tshirts Was Re: (no subject) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <01ea01c51eb2$45243560$45406b43@66067007> Check out the t-shirt sold on this site for $10, I got one 2 weeks ago. http://ibm1130.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 4:49 PM Subject: Re: (no subject) >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Peters writes: > > Tom> I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on > Tom> the front- only $11 (and up) > > Tom> http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer > > Tom> More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ > > Cute... > > Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with the > text: > > C6 A4 83 92 > 40 C9 C2 D4 > > :-) > > Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" that > produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: > > (.)(.) > IKF4084 > > paul > > From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:01:43 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:01:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301145835.S1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old >> table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? > > Um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I understand the question either. This is > a standard ISA IDE+floppy controller. Should I try an older one? Or hook > this up to an oldr PC from the 1980s? Different floppy drives have different specs for the stepper motor step rate. Big drives are often slower (eg. 8" but that's not always true). With 5.25's you never think about it, but it used to be a Big Deal. If you step it too fast it shudders and goes nowhere. There's an optimum rate for performance, but "too slow" would be just fine for sucking data off diskettes one time. It's programmable on a 765. If you run an unprotected OS like DOS you could write a tiny program in DEBUG, save it, and run it when you need to talk to the big floppy. ALl those bits left my brain, you'll ahve to RTFM or talk to someone who still has them in core. From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 17:04:35 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:04:35 -0500 Subject: (no subject) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00b001c51eb3$09abcb00$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with the > text: > > C6 A4 83 92 > 40 C9 C2 D4 > > :-) > > Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" that > produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: > > (.)(.) > IKF4084 Ok, Paul, my secret decoder ring doesn't seem to be working. How long before you decode this for us? Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 17:02:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:02:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503012302.PAA18709@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old >> >> table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? >> >> Hi >> There is a table that one stores the step rate >> for the drive. You need to alter the value for >> slower drives, like your 8 inch. I forget where >> is it but it is in that lower area someplace >> ( 40:xxx or something ). It isn't a problem >> of the controller. It should work with any controller, >> you just need to find the table and change it. >> It has been a while since I've fiddle with it >> to make my drives step with less noise ( and wear ). >> Dwight > >While the default table is often in low memory, >sometimes it is even in ROM. >It is pointed to by INT1Eh. >To alter values in the table, copy it, alter the copy, >then repoint INT1Eh to point to the new address. >Be sure to restore INT1Eh when you are done, >or INT13h may encounter serious difficulties. > >If you've got a copy of the PC Technical Reference Manual, >most of the disk parameter table is documented right after INT13h. Ah yes, the big purple book. I couldn't remember where I saw that info. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 1 16:59:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:59:46 -0700 Subject: Restoring IBM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4224F3E2.3060904@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >Were caps and inductors really all that common in SLT? I don't think they >were. Wasn't one of the goals of SLT to pretty much stick to just >transistors and resistors? > > > Looking at some logic prints of a old ibm hard disk many years ago -- No I don't have the drive or the prints anymore -- that I remember there was one hell of alot of one shots and delay components in the ns range of timing. That was a good use I think of caps and inductors. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > Ben alias woodelf From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 17:05:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:05:17 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... References: <002a01c51ea7$b35fd120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006c01c51eb3$26f8dc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote... > Dilithium Crystals are always the answer. Well, maybe that and some tachyon particles too. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 17:01:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam asks about 8-inch disk drives: > > Are there any drives that don't require such a modification of the stepper > > table? I'm not sure what drives I'm using. They're mounted in an > > enclosure and I'm too lazy to dismount them to check. > > IIRC, half-height 8-inch drives typically supported much faster step rates > than the full-height drives. Ok, now the details start coming out. From the information I could find on the web and the discussions here, the common wisdom was that you just make the right cable and everything just works. Ha. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 17:08:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:08:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200503012308.PAA18729@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Peters writes: > > Tom> I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on > Tom> the front- only $11 (and up) > > Tom> http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer > > Tom> More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ > >Cute... > >Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with the >text: > > C6 A4 83 92 > 40 C9 C2 D4 > >:-) > OK, I'll be the first to byte. What does that sequnce mean? Dwight From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:09:22 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:09:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... In-Reply-To: References: <1bd00d71bcf598.1bcf5981bd00d7@optonline.net> <014101c51e9c$40f29ba0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050301150710.X1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Are you saying that cctalk gets ALL posts? If so that might explain > the occasional complaint that "are off topic" I get on the cctalk > list. Some people don't realize which list they are responding to. If cctech was called "cctalk-moderated" it would have made more sense to me; I double-subbed too. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 1 17:10:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:10:28 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050301181028.00920350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:49 PM 3/1/05 -0500, you wrote: >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Peters writes: > > Tom> I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on > Tom> the front- only $11 (and up) > > Tom> http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer > > Tom> More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ > >Cute... > >Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with the >text: > > C6 A4 83 92 > 40 C9 C2 D4 > >:-) > >Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" that >produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: > > (.)(.) > IKF4084 > > paul A friend of mine was a pharmacology student in college. Their pharmacology club made up some T-shirts that said "Things go better with coke" and the coke swirl along with a drawing of a chemical compound. Everybody though the shirts looked cool and complimented them on them. No body outside of the club realized that the drawing was of a cocaine molecule! Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 17:13:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:13:05 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301181305.59883606.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:00:56 -0500 9000 VAX wrote: > Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. > 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB > 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC > 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC > 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > 5. You name it > Some more that I would add: The IBM PC Convertable. (a truly bad laptop from the user's POV- probably as 'bad' a design as the Mac Portable) The Compaq Deskpro 386 (first generation 386 PC- Compaq's 'shot across the bow' at IBM, sorta) First PC-clone with 'real' power. Vintage PC-DOS. (I have DOS 1.0, the 1.0 Basic Compiler, the 1.0 Pascal Compiler) Useful for sub-64K DOS. The IBM PC-1 (the first generation PC, the one whose motherboard has four rows of 16K DRAM chips, and the cassette interface) The PC-1 is unique in having a power supply painted black, and the IO-slot cover brackets painted black. exceedingly rare. The PC-2 is much more common, chromed power supply and brackets, 256K (64K soldered in) on motherboard. The PC Junior (benchmarks 'Norton SI' at 0.7- no DMA controller, so glacially slow.) The Columbia PC (first DOS 'workalike'- not fully PC Compatible, with ISA slots. Any of the machines that ran MS-DOS 1.x on 8" floppies. Any of the early 'MS-DOS' clones, i.e. the Panasonic PC, that aren't fully PC-compatible and thus require their own special MS-DOS version. Tandy 1000's 'just barely' qualify here, because they were so common. The HP Omnibook 300- DOS and Windows 3 in a PCMCIA ROM- execute-in-memory so that it runs DOS, Windows, Word, Excel directly out of the ROM without loading it into RAM. A major technical accomplishment that was a dead-end development effort. CP/M-86. ------ A lot of the above are interesting more as 'weird relics' than as anything technically special. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 1 17:12:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:12:58 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes Message-ID: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> Having received some of these in the mail, what's the best way of imaging them onto modern media? I hooked up a 150MB SCSI QIC drive to my Linux PC, and it seems to be able to pull data off them happily (even though they're only 60MB). However the tapes contain multiple archives which I'm not too used to handling, plus the archives aren't in any format known to Linux (so I guess dd is the tool for the job there) So, is it just as simple as making sure the tape's rewound, then keeping on issuing: dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=archive01 (with a different output filename each time) ? As nrst0 is a non-rewinding device, I assume the tape will be left at the start of the next archive on the tape after each dd command? Or is it more subtle than that and the archives aren't necessarily back- to-back? Do I need to be issuing some sort of mt command inbetween dd commands to make sure the tape's positioned at the start of the next archive each time? cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:19:45 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301151255.K1121@localhost> >> There is a table that one stores the step rate >> for the drive. You need to alter the value for >> slower drives, like your 8 inch. > OIC. > > Are there any drives that don't require such a modification of the stepper > table? I'm not sure what drives I'm using. They're mounted in an > enclosure and I'm too lazy to dismount them to check. Let me play Mr. Spock for a minute: There is a step-rate mismatch. You can change the step rate value in software, or you can change to a drive that is compatible with the current step rate value. You do not want to change the step rate value, yet you do not want to open the enclosure, but indicate a desire to change to a different brand of floppy disk drive. That, sir, is illogical. PS: Step rate is in the datasheet for the drive and determined by the manufacturer. Persci's were rilly fast, 2-3mS I think, but those are not ordinary interfaces. One of the later, cheaper, all-plastic drives were faster than the sluggish, expensive but reliable Shugarts. That's the forest you're wandering around in. It'll be vastly easier to poke a new value in. WAIT!!! Get a vintage IBM PC tech ref. Look in the listings, around the start of the INT 13h area. There's a little table in the code that gets copied to lower RAM at boot time. WAIT!!! There's I think a chart in the RAM MEMORY MAP area that tells you where the 765 floppy table o'gunk was stored, 10:xxxx or 40:xxxx or something. WAIT!! Iff that table is still used -- which it might very well be since it's one-time config data -- you could run DEBUG, poke a new value into it and be done with it. You'll have to do that every time you boot. If it's currently 07h, or something, make it 20h, or something. Double what's there. Good Enough (tm). From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 17:18:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:18:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050301145835.S1121@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >> Wrong step rate! Poke a new on eint othe chip, or does it use the old > >> table of junk INT 13h used to supoprt? > > > > Um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I understand the question either. This is > > a standard ISA IDE+floppy controller. Should I try an older one? Or hook > > this up to an oldr PC from the 1980s? > > Different floppy drives have different specs for the stepper motor > step rate. Big drives are often slower (eg. 8" but that's not > always true). With 5.25's you never think about it, but it used > to be a Big Deal. > > If you step it too fast it shudders and goes nowhere. There's an optimum > rate for performance, but "too slow" would be just fine for sucking data > off diskettes one time. So what I'm wondering is why it works fine when it's stepping towards the center of the disk but not when it's stepping back out. As I mentioned previously, the format command actually works: it steps 77 tracks inward, but can't move back to track 0 to write the boot sector and directory. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:28:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:28:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050301152220.G1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > IIRC, half-height 8-inch drives typically supported much faster step rates > than the full-height drives. Half height! 8-inch! What tall tales you tell! Where be these mysterious "half height" floppies?! Next you'll be telling me computers can run on batteries! From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:30:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:30:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050301140616.Y2559@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> <20050301140616.Y2559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050301152909.A1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > While the default table is often in low memory, > sometimes it is even in ROM. > It is pointed to by INT1Eh. > To alter values in the table, copy it, alter the copy, > then repoint INT1Eh to point to the new address. > Be sure to restore INT1Eh when you are done, > or INT13h may encounter serious difficulties. > > If you've got a copy of the PC Technical Reference Manual, > most of the disk parameter table is documented right after INT13h. That's it! Better recall than I! My pc tech ref is at home... If you're doing all this under DOS, you could simply poke a new value into the table in RAM (or make a new one in RAM) and restore the old value with a three-finger salute. From drb at msu.edu Tue Mar 1 17:33:04 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:33:04 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <200503012333.j21NX4AH026795@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Late to the game. I always seem to get postings somewhat after others, as evidenced by seeing the originals along with most of the responses, in one batch. 1965. Got interested in ham radio in about 1972 when my father revisited that briefly, but didn't get licensed then. A school field trip in 1974 or 1975 was my first hands on -- the University of Nebraska had a machine running some variant of Spacewar (says my current knowledge), and I got to play for about 20 seconds until I got killed. I remember seeing an ad in an airline magazine in late 1975 for some machine whose identity I can't recall -- looked like an early PET (says my current knowledge again) with chiclet-style keys. Wanted it badly, but couldn't convince the parents to buy it. I didn't actually get to use a machine for real until about 1980. First real exposure was a programming class in high school -- fortran on punched cards, using the Michigan State University CDC 6500. (Anyone having a line on a copy of MSU's SCOPE/HUSTLER O/S, please let me know.) I subsequently funded my own time on that machine. Or maybe they were running most of the jobs on the 750 by then. About 6 months later, a TRS-80 model III came home, and I taught myself BASIC out of the manual over Christmas break. When my parents went overseas again in 1981, we had e-mail through The Source. I talked the school into letting me use their printing terminal (on site for some career exploration service) to dial in. Much concern over long distance telephone calls. :-) When I went to college, I bought an Osborne 1, blue, single density floppies, which I still own. [I should get that out.] Got an Epson MX-80 with graftrax, and a 1200 baud honest-to-god Hayes smartmodem too. One of the roommates wasn't impressed with the keystroke noise; another didn't like the fact that the modem auto-answered the phone one day. (I was playing with the idea of BBS software, and had gone to a terminal room to dial back into it.) I took COBOL (on cards), pascal and VAX assembler (on a VAX 780 running VMS 3.x), and 6502 assembler on 8032 and fat-40 CBM machines at the local community college. At the university, I got a student job supporting and expanding a menu-driven system which delivered horticultural info to growers statewide. It ran on PDP-11 gear, and when I first started, was running v6 unix. They upgraded to v7 while I was there. When I visited my family overseas, the project computer guys let me into their VM-370 machine, a 4331, and a DG (model? ran AOS-VS). I wheedled my way into a SAS class there too. The office machines were Vector Graphics S-100 machines, which was my first round at CP/M. I used to help the secretaries get Memorite to work, solve floppy problems, etc. One of the machines had a real ST-506 hard disk. The problem immediately became how to structure files on it so that they could find things. 10 MB, whee. Or was it 5? Later, I got a real job "over there", and managed a VAX 730 (VMS), and wrote some COBOL code for it and a 750. After struggling in college for a couple of years, I took some time off and got a job doing tech support on hardware and OS stuff, working on Prime superminis. On a work trip I stopped to see some friends; a fellow who was a grad student at Berkeley showed off a Sun workstation; shame I didn't get to play on it! The employer subsequently considered porting the application to VAXen, so a MicroVAX came to visit the office for a while, and later I was mailed off to Marlborough to benchmark on some of the bigger machines. Somewhere about 1986 I bought an SB-180, which I still have, and it was my main machine for several years. [Should get this out too.] I was lucky enough to get to test a Telebit Trailblazer from home for a fairly extended period of time. In late 1988 I bought my first PC, an NEC 386SX/16. Later, I spent time on AIX machines. I was the first sysadmin for the campus gopher and web services at MSU, hosted on an RS/6000. Picked up perl programming to help with document conversion and mounting at this point. I looked at early Linux, but first installed it and ran it for real in the 0.9 range; still using it on my desktops everywhere. Finally got my ham license in 1995, and am firmly resisting tube gear, since I have these other historical interests. (Ok, ok, so I got hooked on Moto Syntor X radios instead.) Most of the rest is too new to be "on topic". :-) It's also mostly boring by list standards. If there's a gathering in Dayton, I'd love to come along. ^[[145q De From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 17:31:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:31:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: T-shirts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Peters wrote: > I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on the front- > only $11 (and up) > > http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer > > More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ These are much better: http://www.bustedtees.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From emu at ecubics.com Tue Mar 1 17:39:56 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:39:56 -0700 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Having received some of these in the mail, what's the best way of > imaging them onto modern media? > > I hooked up a 150MB SCSI QIC drive to my Linux PC, and it seems to be > able to pull data off them happily (even though they're only 60MB). > However the tapes contain multiple archives which I'm not too used to > handling, plus the archives aren't in any format known to Linux (so I > guess dd is the tool for the job there) > > So, is it just as simple as making sure the tape's rewound, then keeping > on issuing: dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=archive01 (with a different output > filename each time) ? As nrst0 is a non-rewinding device, I assume the > tape will be left at the start of the next archive on the tape after > each dd command? > > Or is it more subtle than that and the archives aren't necessarily back- > to-back? Do I need to be issuing some sort of mt command inbetween dd > commands to make sure the tape's positioned at the start of the next > archive each time? Look for "tapetools" on the web. It copies the tape into a container file, preserving all blocksizes, so you can even duplicate it to another tape (9track,8mm,4mm,dlt,...). Includes also a tapedump utility, so you can have a look what's inside From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 1 17:40:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:40:17 -0600 Subject: Duplicate post notice, please read... In-Reply-To: <006c01c51eb3$26f8dc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002a01c51ea7$b35fd120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006c01c51eb3$26f8dc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4224FD61.6000404@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > David wrote... > >> Dilithium Crystals are always the answer. > > Well, maybe that and some tachyon particles too. Have you tried reversing the positronic flow through the power matrix? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 17:38:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:38:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050301152220.G1121@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > IIRC, half-height 8-inch drives typically supported much faster step rates > > than the full-height drives. > > Half height! 8-inch! What tall tales you tell! Where be these > mysterious "half height" floppies?! I've got several. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 17:42:28 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301154050.P1121@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > So what I'm wondering is why it works fine when it's stepping towards the > center of the disk but not when it's stepping back out. It's called "being on the hairy edge". Try refrigerating, or heating, the drive. Put a drop of alcohol on the lead screw right before you seek. Try it at night, or morning. From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Mar 1 17:42:55 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:42:55 -0500 Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <20050301145835.S1121@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050301183954.02437260@mail.earthlink.net> when you are formatting tracks you have effectively slowed the stepping rate down to a rate slow enough for the stepper motor to keep up with (step, time to format, and then step again...). When you are returning to track 00, the drive is stepping at the fastest rate that the controller is configured for. best regards, Steve At 06:18 PM 03/01/2005, you wrote: >So what I'm wondering is why it works fine when it's stepping towards the >center of the disk but not when it's stepping back out. > >As I mentioned previously, the format command actually works: it steps 77 >tracks inward, but can't move back to track 0 to write the boot sector and >directory. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From mhscc at canada.com Tue Mar 1 17:14:56 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:14:56 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? Message-ID: <01C51E8E.ADC9CCC0@H74.C223.tor.velocet.net> --------------Original message: Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:08:16 -0800 (PST) From: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 mhstein at canada.com wrote: >> There are numerous systems out there, and Herb and Howard et al are >> doing a great job of archiving the documentation, but what about the >> software? Is anybody archiving the various versions of CDOS, Cromix & >> Unix, and the languages & applications? >I know I've got lots of various versions of this stuff on various media. >Nothing concerted, however. -------------------------- That's my point; I'm sure there are many bits & pieces out there but, unlike the manuals, there doesn't seem to be much on the 'net anywhere in any organized way. Randy has suggested that Gaby might put it on her site, so that might be the answer. Maybe those of us who have some Cromemco S/W could get together here or off-list and compare who's got what. How about it Randy, you're doing such a fine job with the 8"/3.5" issue, feel like organizing something else? It's even relevant... ============== >> For that matter, is there any point? I don't see many people writing >> Cobol or Fortran programs to run on a System 3... >Yes. There's always value in preserving this stuff. Even if not apparent >to us now. And it only takes the space of a floppy disk (or no space at >all once it's been converted over to a modern hard disk). -------------------------- Well, that brings up the second point: if it's going to be archived on the 'net, in what format? As discussed elsewhere, PC images of Cromemco disks can be a problem because of their SD/DD mixed format. Ordinary CDOS files are less of a problem since they're 8.3 file names with no subdirectories; they can fairly easily be copied to a PC & ZIPped, and copied back to a CDOS disk. CROMIX & UNIX files are a little more problematic, because of the long file names & subdirectories. They can be TAR'd, but again, Cromemco being Cromemco, they used several incompatible TAR/TARZ80/FTAR formats. BTW, Cromix V31.58, for example, consists of 10 FTAR disks, although the Z80 versions are much smaller (2 disks) And of course there's still the problem of the mixed format boot disks. Any thoughts/a consensus? =============== >> So, any ideas what to do with it? (no obscene suggestions, please!) >Stick it up your hard drive? ------------------------------ Well, that's what I've been doing, but a good dump would be welcome :) Just need an appropriate site. =============== >> BTW, any news about what happened with Don Maslin's collection? >I'm wondering the same thing. ------------------------------ And what about Al Kossov's site? mike From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 17:49:21 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050301152220.G1121@localhost> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <20050301152220.G1121@localhost> Message-ID: <62833.64.139.41.130.1109720961.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote about half-height 8-inch floppy drives. Tom replied: > Half height! 8-inch! What tall tales you tell! Where be these > mysterious "half height" floppies?! > > Next you'll be telling me computers can run on batteries! Well, I wouldn't go that far. But someday they might be small enough that a rich person could have one in their own home. Eric From mhscc at canada.com Tue Mar 1 17:40:32 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:40:32 -0500 Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine Message-ID: <01C51E8E.AF6442E0@H74.C223.tor.velocet.net> -------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:54:05 -0800 (PST) From: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine >Can I fantasize? Can you ever... >I'm reading some literature on IBM accounting machines and finding them >incredibly sexy. It would be a blast to actually program one and run >calculations through it. Sexy, eh? hmmm, you need to get out more... FWIW, a while back I sent a box full of IBM unit record machine manuals, including some tech manuals, to Norm Aleks out in your part of the country. He was going to put them up on the web somewhere but I haven't run across them; if you're interested you might get in touch with him. I think Al had some on his site as well, and I also still have a duplicate copy for one or two machines myself. Good luck building that 402; meanwhile an emulator would be an interesting project... (I can see it now: patch panels on the screen & connecting hubs with mouse clicks & drags, virtual cards dropping into the pockets of the virtual 082 sorter, dragging a virtual card deck from the virtual 083 collator to the virtual 402, etc....) BTW, although the 402/403 &c were indeed officially called "accounting machines," they were usually referred to as "tabulating machines." The term "accounting machines" usually referred to the manual machines used in banks everywhere, mostly from NCR, Monroe & Burroughs. mike From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 1 17:52:20 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:52:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <63398.64.139.41.130.1109721140.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jules Richardson wrote: > Look for "tapetools" on the web. It copies the tape into a container > file, preserving all blocksizes, so you can even duplicate it to another > tape (9track,8mm,4mm,dlt,...). > Includes also a tapedump utility, so you can have a look what's inside I'm not familiar with "tapetools", and Google only turned up references to an HP proprietary program. Were you perhaps thinking of "tapeutils"? http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ From emu at ecubics.com Tue Mar 1 18:12:26 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:12:26 -0700 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <63398.64.139.41.130.1109721140.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> <63398.64.139.41.130.1109721140.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <422504EA.6020702@ecubics.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Look for "tapetools" on the web. It copies the tape into a container >>file, preserving all blocksizes, so you can even duplicate it to another >>tape (9track,8mm,4mm,dlt,...). >>Includes also a tapedump utility, so you can have a look what's inside > > > I'm not familiar with "tapetools", and Google only turned up references > to an HP proprietary program. Were you perhaps thinking of "tapeutils"? > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ You're as usual right, my finger were much faster than the brain ;-) The tapeutils I was recommending ... cheers From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 18:14:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:14:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503020014.QAA18747@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Darn, I wish I'd of thought of that! This makes sense. Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >when you are formatting tracks you have effectively slowed the stepping >rate down to a rate slow enough for the stepper motor to keep up with >(step, time to format, and then step again...). When you are returning to >track 00, the drive is stepping at the fastest rate that the controller is >configured for. > >best regards, Steve > >At 06:18 PM 03/01/2005, you wrote: > >>So what I'm wondering is why it works fine when it's stepping towards the >>center of the disk but not when it's stepping back out. >> >>As I mentioned previously, the format command actually works: it steps 77 >>tracks inward, but can't move back to track 0 to write the boot sector and >>directory. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 18:15:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:15:56 -0500 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <62833.64.139.41.130.1109720961.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503011929.LAA18610@clulw009.amd.com> <51787.64.139.41.130.1109714273.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <20050301152220.G1121@localhost> <62833.64.139.41.130.1109720961.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:49:21 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > > Next you'll be telling me computers can run on batteries! > > Well, I wouldn't go that far. But someday they might be small > enough that a rich person could have one in their own home. Pshaw! The next thing, you'll be suggesting that every city should have a telephone. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 18:25:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:25:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503020025.QAA18752@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" ---snip--- > >If it's currently 07h, or something, make it 20h, or something. >Double what's there. Good Enough (tm). > Hi This most likely won't work. As I recall, the values in the table are a bit field of a register on the controller ( only 3 or so bits ). The other bits are for different purposes. Also, as I recall, the steps are faster for larger numbers, not smaller. He'll have to look it up in the manual. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 17:27:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:27:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Feb 28, 5 04:45:34 pm Message-ID: > Unless, of course, you actually have a decent digital camera... ;-) Yes, but I can;'t afford a 5*4" digital back for my monorail. And even then I am told film still has a higher resolution. > > http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/d70/Nitetime_shot_30sec.jpg > > It's a big picture - 3028x2002 pixels (native resolution of my Nikon D70) - I hate to tell you this, but a good 35mm image is normally regarded as being equivalent to 12--20 megapixels. 6 megapixels is not enough IMHO. > 1.2Meg of storage used -- it's a 30-second exposure of downtown Grand > Rapids, Michigan about 8:07 PM local time (2008 hrs) through smoked glass > using a little hand-held tripod. > > And yes, it has an iris, shutter (speeds from 30sec -> 1/8000 sec) takes > most Nikon lenses made in the last 15ish years... > > The last camera I'll buy for a long, long time... ;-) Well, until some custom component fails and you can't get a replacement, anyway. One good thing about the old, mechanical, film cameras is that most parts could be made in a good home workshop (and they don't tend to fail anyway). > > [[ Tony's gonna bitch at me at this one, but I finally have a digital > camera that takes pictures as nice as my Canon 35mm film camera. So it got > sold on ePay. Megapixel, schmegapixel - I looked at the last 4-5 rolls of > film I took with that camera, and I printed several pictures on my Kodak > dyesub from my new one - to my eye, they are equally aesthetic - therefore > I'm happy. Oh, and the last roll of 800-speed film I ran through that > camera didn't look as nice as some ISO800-setting pix off of my Nikon. Bad > film processing? Maybe, but now I don't have to worry about that anymore, > eh? ;-) ]] Well, I've never actually used a Canon camera, but I believe they're pretty good. So my question is bascially 'what were you doing wrong with it'. Because it should be capable of giving much better images than a 6 megapixel digital camera. I think we can discount any problems with the lens. Canon lenses are good, and anyway it's hard to mess up the design of a standard lens. I know of only one poor standard lens -- the Myers Domiplan. But anyway... I'm a bit worried by your choice of film. To me, 800 ASA is a fast film, which will have coarse grain. I normally preder something slower than 100ASA. And then there's the issue of developing and printing it. These high-street places can ruin a picture from even the best camera :-(. Personally, I'd take slides (thus eliminating the printing stage) and probably process the film myself (not at all hard to do). FInally, I am sure you're aware that camera shake ruins more pictures than anything else. Use a tripod! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 17:29:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:29:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <20050228141141.M72505@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 28, 5 02:17:45 pm Message-ID: > > ANY light sources other than the display will be deleterious to the image > of the display. > > You should use a relatively small aperture, to give lots of depth of > focus, since a convex display is opposite the concave field of focus. Minor correction. You mean 'depth of field' here. 'Depth of focus' relates to the possible error in positioning the image (film) plane, not the subject. > You should use an exposure that is long enough to include multiple frames, One good thing is that a small aperture and long exposure go together, and here you need both of them :-) > otherwise, lack of synchronization will give you bands. OR, you could tap > into the video circuitry an use the VBI plus a short delay to synchronize. Good luck!. I've yet to find a digital camera that triggers when you think it will. There's often an unknown (and suprisingly long) delay between closing the 'shutter release' contact and actually captruing the image. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 17:38:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:38:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: not sure this went out 11/45 status In-Reply-To: <000d01c51e7b$6c60c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 1, 5 10:26:29 am Message-ID: > 2) My front panel has an oddity (to me). If I select say address 10000 and > hit load addr the address lights respond correctly with 10000. I then hit > examine and get nothing (blank data lights). Whatever... but here's the > interesting part. If I keep pressing examine over and over again, the > address lights count up just like they should - except they skip bit zero > (the rightmost bit, either 0 or 15 whatever dec nomenclature is). I don't DEC have 0 as the LSB (rightmost bit on the panel) > mean that the rightmost bit just isn't displaying correctly, the actual > counting sequence acts like the rightmost bit is the 2nd light from the > right. I can tell it's not just a bulb problem because I don't have to hit > load addr twice to "move on", the count is smooth and sequential without the > rightmost bit. Any thoughts offhand? YEs, it's working correctly. Remember that the address is actually a _byte_ address (the LSB of the address selects the byte within the word for byte operations). The front panel accesses a word (2 bytes) at a time, the address is always even (LSB = 0) and increments by 2 after each EXAMine or DEPosit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 17:48:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:48:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: <1baea511baa6e4.1baa6e41baea51@optonline.net> from "dvcorbin@optonline.net" at Mar 1, 5 11:35:41 am Message-ID: > > Just grabbed an ASR-33 on ePay.....LOCAL so no shipping damage (except what I induce)..... > > Since I dont carry my reference manuals with me, can anyone post the "proper" size for the hold-down bolt(s)?????? > > I want to pick this up on the way home this evening.... If you're shipping it yourself (and have a reasonably large car), I'd ship it in bits. You'll want (or should want) to inspect things before powering it up anyway. Remove tbe paper roll, the punched tape roll, the platten knob (just pulls out), the punch cover and the knob from the front (if it's a private line set, which I assume it will be if you're going to use it with a computer). Slide the front nameplate down and remove it. Pack those bits separately. Take out the cover screws. There are some thumbscrews at the back, some screws at the front under the nameplate and one at the rear corner of the reader cover. Forgetting the last one is a prime cause of broken covers! Lift off the main cover Remove the back from the stand (if it's on a stand) -- a couple of self-tapping screws. UNplug the cables that go to the typing unit. IIRC that's plugs 4 and 8 at the rear of the call control unit (but it can't hurt to unplug the lot), then remove the 2 wires to the rrader trip swtich on the rear right of the typing unit (2 push-on tags) and unclip that cable from the typing unit. At the rear right of the keyboard is the famous H-plate. Put a screwdriver in the slot, slide it to the left (against a spring in the typing unit), then free it from the keyboard linkage. Then slide it out from the typing unit linkage. Pack the H-plate separately. Lift the typing unit up, starting at the read. Slide it out from under the keyboard (there's a trip lever for the tape feed mechanism). Remove the typing unit. Put that in your car separately. Diosconnect the cable from the reader PSU (in the top of the stand), unclip the PUS from the stand, pack it separately. Get somebody to steady the base pan and remove the screws holding it to the stand. Put the cover back on the base pan (leave the keyboard, reader, call control unit in the base pan), put in some of the screws to hold it. Then put that in your car Put the back on the stand again, put the stand in your car. At one time, I could do all that in under 5 minutes without even trying... -tony From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 18:39:07 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:39:07 -0500 Subject: The future of computing/technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> Pshaw! The next thing, you'll be suggesting that every >>> city should have a telephone. >>> Although I can not find the article right now.... One of the last areas in the US finally got phone service in 2004. The 1 private residence was occupied by an elderly woman. Her first phone call was from the Governor to congratulate her. 15 minutes later the phone rang again.... (you guessed it) ... A telemarketer.... [possible urban legend, but still on the mark... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 18:02:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 front panel question In-Reply-To: <015901c51e9d$65e28550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 1, 5 02:29:41 pm Message-ID: > > ok, two questions. In at least the docs I have (11/45 service manual, user > manual, and handbook), I can't find a clear description of how to toggle a > program into memory. > > I'm assuming that when you enter an address in the front panel switches and > hit "load addrs", that the data lights aren't supposed to automatically show > the data value at that location. I'm assuming you must hit "exam" first. Is > this correct? If not, I'd be autoincrementing and seeing the next data Yes > value. Can someone give me a good example of just how to enter two or three Actually, the 11/45 gets this right (and the appropriate bit of logic/microcode is not trivial). If you EXAM, then DEP, you'll deposit at the same location (ditto for DEP, then EXAM). It increments the address between successive DEPs or EXAMs (but not between a DEP and an EXAM or vice versa). The easiest way to think of it (and this is what the machine actually does) is that it increments the address before each EXAM or DEP in a sequence of identical operations _apart from the first one_. > words starting at a given location? I think I can figure this out, but I'd > rather be sure so I don't skip over something that isn't working correctly. But you don't need to worry about that. Just do this : Stick the address on the switchs, hit LOAD ADDR Stick the first word of your program on the switches, hit DEP Stick the next word on the switches, DEP again and so on. -tony From cswiger at widomaker.com Tue Mar 1 18:34:30 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:34:30 -0500 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <1c6fa9e1c6cb8e.1c6cb8e1c6fa9e@optonline.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20050301192240.01b1ad08@wilma.widomaker.com> At 02:57 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone looked at the Copyright??? (if any....) Yes - it's copyright 1991, from TechMedia Video, PO Box 2151, Salisbury MD 21802 call Toll Free (800) 824-5499 (or 410-543-1989) - Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws. Produced in association with AmigaWorld magazine. I just tried the toll free # and got invited to call another number to talk with exciting people nationwide. The other # is not in service. Google for TechMedia and find multi-businesses from magnetic cell phone holders to web consulting to video adapters. It's the age old predicament - you can't buy it and you can't make copies. --Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 18:41:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:41:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503020041.QAA18757@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > ---snip--- > He'll have to look it up in the manual. >Dwight Hi OK, I did a little googling for Sellam. INT 1E is the pointer to the disk table. It can be found at 50:22. All this info can be found at: http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/bios_data_area.html and http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/assembly/int_1e.html Be prepared for a few cookies. Still, for one playing with a PC, there is a lot of info here. Anyway, Sellam, I recall that smaller numbers made the steps faster. In any case, you can experiment with the values a little. If the table isn't in RAM, you may need to make a TSR to reserve some space hide your replacement table. Have fun! Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 1 18:49:32 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:49:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <200503020049.QAA18761@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > >I'm a bit worried by your choice of film. To me, 800 ASA is a fast film, >which will have coarse grain. I normally preder something slower than >100ASA. And then there's the issue of developing and printing it. These ---snip--- There is a 1600 Pan--something_or_other that Kodak makes that is also fine grain. I've used it to make C size blowups of astro pictures. It is hard to find but it is available. Most places I went would tell me that it was only use by professionals and they didn't carry it. I wish I could remember that name. Dwight From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 1 18:53:42 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:53:42 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - In-Reply-To: <200503012118.NAA19228@floodgap.com> References: <200503012118.NAA19228@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42250E96.70800@jbrain.com> obAOLQuote: me too! -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From James at jdfogg.com Tue Mar 1 19:01:54 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:01:54 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2CF6@sbs.jdfogg.com> > There is a 1600 Pan--something_or_other that Kodak makes > that is also fine grain. I've used it to make C size blowups > of astro pictures. It is hard to find but it is available. > Most places I went would tell me that it was only use by > professionals and they didn't carry it. I wish I could > remember that name. There are some specialty films Kodak sells that (I think) come from their movie film stocks. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 1 18:59:40 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:59:40 -0700 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42250FFC.50007@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >Well, until some custom component fails and you can't get a replacement, >anyway. One good thing about the old, mechanical, film cameras is that >most parts could be made in a good home workshop (and they don't tend to >fail anyway). > > I'm just reading the "Lindsay's technical books" catalog and the book "Simple Large Format Camera Construction" by E A Hover looks like nice book to have around. See www.lindsaybks.com for more details. Ben alias woodelf From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 1 19:09:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:09:20 -0500 Subject: (no subject) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00b001c51eb3$09abcb00$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: >> Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with >> the text: >> >> C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 See an EBCDIC code chart... >> Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" >> that produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: >> >> (.)(.) IKF4084 Ashley> Ok, Paul, my secret decoder ring doesn't seem to be working. Ashley> How long before you decode this for us? OS/360 Messages and Codes says IKF is a Cobol compiler message. The COBOL manual says (going from memory here -- it's not on Al's site): IKF4084-I -- Questionable use of parentheses accepted with doubts as to meaning I haven't a clue what kind of code a compiler would generate when it spits out a message like that. My guess is that this is what you get if you feed it the source line "(.)(.)" but I haven't actually tried that. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 1 19:13:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:13:11 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> <16932.61840.569000.224139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00b001c51eb3$09abcb00$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42251327.7060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >OS/360 Messages and Codes says IKF is a Cobol compiler message. The >COBOL manual says (going from memory here -- it's not on Al's site): > > IKF4084-I -- Questionable use of parentheses accepted > with doubts as to meaning > >I haven't a clue what kind of code a compiler would generate when it >spits out a message like that. My guess is that this is what you get >if you feed it the source line "(.)(.)" but I haven't actually tried >that. > > > I was thinking something like this ASCII art > ._____________________ > | > | ,-,__, > | { / /__\ > | { `}'- -/ > | {_}/\ o/ > | __} {__ > | / " \ > |/ /| 0} 0} \ > / / \`~' `"/\ \ > { : } { : } > \ \ } . { / / > |\ \/ \ / > | j{ }t > | { } > | \ / > | \ V > | `, \ > | {` } > |_____ {' /_________ > ; / > ; / > , , > (, k > \,,, >. > > > From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Tue Mar 1 19:31:42 2005 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:31:42 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <20050301200014.18212.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050301200014.18212.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1109727102.5802.2.camel@azure> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 12:00 -0800, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > A copy of that sounds great... ummm, does someone own the copyright to this > thing? Of course according to international law for a minimum of 50 years after it was produced, longer than that in the USA. Unless it was specifically put in the public domain. Ya bunch of Pirates!! ;-D Paul > > --- cswiger wrote: > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > > > > > > > I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" > > > > video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story > > > > of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay > > > > Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. > > > > > > Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be > > > better distributed. > > > > > > > Ok - it was a few bucks from a Salvation Army store. I Just got a $50 > > vhs player to start transfering tapes to DVD so I'll put that at > > the top of the list to do - then make some copies available for cost > > of media. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > ===== > Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net > > *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! > - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address > - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us > - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all > - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 1 19:30:39 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:30:39 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20050301192240.01b1ad08@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <1c6fa9e1c6cb8e.1c6cb8e1c6fa9e@optonline.net> <5.2.1.1.1.20050301192240.01b1ad08@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050301192301.03c9f610@mail> At 06:34 PM 3/1/2005, Chuck Swiger wrote: >Yes - it's copyright 1991, from TechMedia Video, PO Box 2151, Salisbury MD 21802 >Produced in association with AmigaWorld magazine. Now it's ringing bells. Are you sure you have the correct title? I think there were other Amiga-related videos made by smaller companies about the demise of Amiga Corp. or CBM. I may own some. Here are some other lists of tapes: http://www.amigaforever.com/videos/ http://www.ncaug.org/curr/video.html - John From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 19:53:27 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:53:27 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > >> C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 > > See an EBCDIC code chart... > > >> Somewhat related, there once was a company named "Outer Products" > >> that produced lovely geek T-shirts. One I remember -- it said: > >> > >> (.)(.) IKF4084 > > Ashley> Ok, Paul, my secret decoder ring doesn't seem to be working. > Ashley> How long before you decode this for us? > > OS/360 Messages and Codes says IKF is a Cobol compiler message. The > COBOL manual says (going from memory here -- it's not on Al's site): > > IKF4084-I -- Questionable use of parentheses accepted > with doubts as to meaning > > I haven't a clue what kind of code a compiler would generate when it > spits out a message like that. My guess is that this is what you get > if you feed it the source line "(.)(.)" but I haven't actually tried > that. > > paul Dang it. I've been in DEC/PDP-11/ASCII mode. Let me switch my gears back to IBM/EBCDIC/COBOL mode and figure it out. I'll be back later! Ashley From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 20:03:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:03:28 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress Message-ID: <000901c51ecc$073e6b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Based on the docs I got from Ashley I was able to re-arrange the memory section to be sane, cards were in the wrong slots. I was also able to get the jumpers set right on the G110 card. Now when I power up I can definitely read core correctly. There's a random assortment of data in sequential locations and returning to those same locations I always get the same value. That's a plus. However, I can't store anything. Anytime I store a new value in a location, that location gets all zeros. Moving to another location I get data, and moving back - zeros. So it appears to be challenged in writing, but not reading, memory. The plot thickens :) One thing I can't be sure of that the docs from Ashley don't say for sure is how to configure a less than full section of memory. I ASSumed you start from right to left, but in the HP core section that would be a bad assumption. Humm... But if I had that wrong, I'm suprised I'd be able to consistently read memory locations. A different G231 and G110 and H214 didn't change the problem. Jay From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 1 20:04:54 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050301180300.X1121@localhost> Unlike film, you can'y simply open the shutter and integrate the image over time arbitrarily. CCDs are extremely noisy; silver nitrate (etc) it's at atomic scale. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 20:16:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:16:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM In-Reply-To: <4224F3E2.3060904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Looking at some logic prints of a old ibm hard disk many years ago -- > No I don't have the drive or the prints anymore -- that I remember there > was one hell of alot of one shots and delay components in the ns range > of timing. That was a good use I think of caps and inductors. But not in the SLT. They were different parts. IBM had no problems about mixing SLT and other parts, such as driver transistors, delays, etc.. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 20:21:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:21:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of computing/technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 15 minutes later the phone rang again.... > > (you guessed it) > > ... A telemarketer.... > > [possible urban legend, but still on the mark... About eight years ago, when I was at the big Downers Grove, IL POP (MCI), the front desk got a call from an MCI telemarketer trying to get them to switch their long distance sevice. The funny thing was that the poor girl at the POP's desk (she was one of the technicians, actually) had a hell of a time trying to convince the telemarketer to give up. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 1 20:25:34 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:25:34 -0800 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301162607.075c0c28@localhost> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > I believe this is a T-shirt with a lear-sigler ADM-3 terminal on the > front- only $11 (and up) > > http://www.cafepress.com/lt_goodcomputer > > More shirts at http://legaltshirts.com/ > Ok, If he gets to spam his shirts, I get to spam mine! http://www.cafepress.com/pentaminogroup The symbol is the r-pentamino from Conway's life. It grows to extraordinary size and number of generations before finishing. ob-classiccomputing: Life is best run on computers. From dancohoe at oxford.net Tue Mar 1 20:30:30 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:30:30 -0500 Subject: DG board ID? In-Reply-To: <001101c51ea2$9c40e100$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001801c51ecf$ce35e7f0$6401a8c0@dcohoe> Jay said: > I just picked up a board at the local scrap dealer from his > junque bin, as I > recognized it as a DG board of roughly the right size & shape > for my Eclipse > machines. It's designated "107-000261-10". > > Any idea what this may be? Two small ribbon connectors and a > pile of 8K roms > make me thing part of a cpu cardset. I thought I might be able to help here, but about all I have found is an explanation of the DG part number system. The book says: part numbers have the following format 001 - 000573 - 10 PREFIX ITEM NO. REVISION LEVEL I. PREFIX The first three digits of the number are the prefix. The prefix indicates the general class of a document or part. In this example, the prefix 001 indicates that this number refers to a logic schematic. A list of all the current prefixes follows this expalnation. II. ITEM NUMBER Digits 4-9 are the item number that uniquely identifies the particular item in the class. In this example, the number 573 refers to the schematic for the power supply of the 6020 series tape drive. III. SUFFIX The last two digits are the revision level. In this case, 10 refersto the number of times this particular schematic has been changed.... Following this explanation is a list of Prefix codes from 001 to 220. code 107 is ARTWORK PCB After this I looked through the documentation for the S/130 and found that your board appears to be in fact the CPU-1 board from an S/130...item 000261. CPU-2 should have item number 000657 I think you'd better go back and dig through the bin some more!!! regards, Dan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 20:26:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Harlem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301161534.00c20320@localhost> Message-ID: The next Vintage Computer Festival will be held in Harlem: Vintage Computa Festival Duh Vintage Computa Festival be a international event that celebrates the history uh computing. Duh mission uh duh Vintage Computa Festival be to promote the preservation uh "obsolete" computas by offerin' peeps a chance to experience duh technologies, peeps an' stories that embody the remarkable tale uh duh computa revolution. Through our event an' duh Vintage Computa Festival Archives?our publicly accessible archive uh computa hardware, software, literature an' ephemera?we promote interest in researchin' an' documentin' duh history uh duh computa. Above all, we promote duh fun uh playin' wif old computas. http://www.degraeve.org/cgi-bin/babel.cgi?d=ebonics&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage.org&w= (My apologies to the offended ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Tue Mar 1 21:42:29 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:42:29 +1000 Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050302134229.0094a500@pop-server> At 04:34 PM 2/28/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: >> Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. >> 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB >> 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC >> 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC >> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop >> 5. You name it The Compaq Deskpro 386 for beating IBM to market. The Tandy 1000 series for outliving the PCjr that it was a clone of. I'm not familiar with the Nexgen, was it anything like the Compaq Deskpro 5/60? EISA bus (no PCI), motherboard chipset was Compaq's own. It would have to be one of the 1st Pentium based PCs, but mines too hard to get at for me to go looking for date codes. From rcini at optonline.net Tue Mar 1 20:41:41 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:41:41 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Harlem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c51ed1$5e11cc30$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Very funny. I commute into New York City daily, and this is a fair representation of the speech sometimes heard...but not about vintage computers. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 9:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Harlem The next Vintage Computer Festival will be held in Harlem: Vintage Computa Festival Duh Vintage Computa Festival be a international event that celebrates the history uh computing. Duh mission uh duh Vintage Computa Festival be to promote the preservation uh "obsolete" computas by offerin' peeps a chance to experience duh technologies, peeps an' stories that embody the remarkable tale uh duh computa revolution. Through our event an' duh Vintage Computa Festival Archives?our publicly accessible archive uh computa hardware, software, literature an' ephemera?we promote interest in researchin' an' documentin' duh history uh duh computa. Above all, we promote duh fun uh playin' wif old computas. http://www.degraeve.org/cgi-bin/babel.cgi?d=ebonics&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vin tage.org&w= (My apologies to the offended ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 20:46:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:46:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <01C51E8E.ADC9CCC0@H74.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote: > >Yes. There's always value in preserving this stuff. Even if not apparent > >to us now. And it only takes the space of a floppy disk (or no space at > >all once it's been converted over to a modern hard disk). > -------------------------- > Well, that brings up the second point: if it's going to be archived on > the 'net, in what format? http://www.futurekeep.org Still working on the standard. Join us! > >I'm wondering the same thing. > ------------------------------ > And what about Al Kossov's site? Still there: http://www.bitsavers.org/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 1 20:50:59 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:50:59 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > >> Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with > >> the text: > >> > >> C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 Got it! I take it that you wore this shirt when you were a DEC guy? > >> (.)(.) IKF4084 > OS/360 Messages and Codes says IKF is a Cobol compiler message. The > COBOL manual says (going from memory here -- it's not on Al's site): > > IKF4084-I -- Questionable use of parentheses accepted > with doubts as to meaning > > I haven't a clue what kind of code a compiler would generate when it > spits out a message like that. My guess is that this is what you get > if you feed it the source line "(.)(.)" but I haven't actually tried > that. My COBOL manuals are in the attic. I'll trust your word on this one until I dig my message manuals out. Ashley From tomhudson at execpc.com Tue Mar 1 20:59:58 2005 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:59:58 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42252C2E.8010400@execpc.com> I'd certainly offer my services free of charge to convert that VHS tape to DVD. It should be preserved! -Tom Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > > > >>I wonder if anybody would be interested in a "Making of the Amiga" >>video - I found a vhs on said topic in a thrift store. It has the story >>of the genesis, development, sale to Commodore, product launch, Jay >>Miner, etc. Maybe it's common, I don't know. >> >> > >Wow, that's significant. You should get that digitized so it can be >better distributed. > > > -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 20:59:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Just grabbed an ASR-33 on ePay.....LOCAL so no shipping damage (except what I induce)..... > > > > Since I dont carry my reference manuals with me, can anyone post the "proper" size for the hold-down bolt(s)?????? > > > > I want to pick this up on the way home this evening.... > > If you're shipping it yourself (and have a reasonably large car), I'd > ship it in bits. You'll want (or should want) to inspect things before > powering it up anyway. <2 pages of diassembly instructions snipped> Um, or just ship it whole in the back seat of your car, where nothing will happen to it. What you're suggesting here is insanity. There's more chance something will get damaged by disassembling it than by just transporting it whole. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomhudson at execpc.com Tue Mar 1 21:04:53 2005 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:04:53 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <42252C2E.8010400@execpc.com> References: <42252C2E.8010400@execpc.com> Message-ID: <42252D55.1080107@execpc.com> Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages regarding copyright. Never mind! -Tom Tom Hudson wrote: > I'd certainly offer my services free of charge to convert that VHS > tape to DVD. It should be preserved! > > -Tom > -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 1 16:10:09 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:10:09 +0000 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050302134229.0094a500@pop-server> Message-ID: <20050302030710.JVOY19622.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:42:29 +1000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > From: "Dr. Ido" > Subject: Re: classic X86 hardware > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > At 04:34 PM 2/28/05 -0500, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > >> Before you guys start to laugh at me, I would like to itemize some. > >> 1. The original IBM PC 5150/5160 MB > >> 2. The HP 100LX, 200LX palm PC > >> 3. The original Nexgen pentium class PC > >> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > >> 5. You name it > > The Compaq Deskpro 386 for beating IBM to market. > The Tandy 1000 series for outliving the PCjr that it was a clone of. > > I'm not familiar with the Nexgen, was it anything like the Compaq Deskpro > 5/60? EISA bus (no PCI), motherboard chipset was Compaq's own. It would > have to be one of the 1st Pentium based PCs, but mines too hard to get at > for me to go looking for date codes. Almost missed this: Hyperion portable. Very almost pc compatiable and rather compact. There was aftermarket stuff to fit that large connector on the back: bring it up to 640K, etc. Cheers, Wizard From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 21:14:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <42252D55.1080107@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Hudson wrote: > Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages > regarding copyright. Never mind! Yes, the God of Copyright must be obeyed! All hail Life of Author + 70 Years!! If we're lucky, our great grandkids will be able to see that video, if it hasn't already cumbled into dust. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 1 21:30:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:30:41 -0700 Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? References: Message-ID: <42253361.9000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.bitsavers.org/ so what about www.spies.com ? Lots of stuff on the net give the same original link and the main site is down or now porn sites. The last few days I tend to be looking for older stuff and the stuff is gone. While the copywrite is still in effect it still is important to keep or duplicate old materal like manuals or old magazines like BYTE. We may not be able to sell the products but keeping them archived is important. Ben alias woodelf From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 1 21:39:07 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:39:07 -0800 Subject: Ebay items Message-ID: <4225355B.FC920314@msm.umr.edu> This guy has a couple of pdp 11/53's and other stuff in a CNC case in the Chicago area. He probably didn't post anything here, but someone in the area might find some interesting stuff to grab. Looks like a part of a larger machine either upgraded or decomissioned. Jim Ebay Item , description 5169944715 Digital DEC VAX PDP11 pdp 11 MicroVAX II Cold War From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Mar 1 21:52:03 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 05 03:52:03 GMT Subject: The future of computing/technology Message-ID: <0503020352.AA11935@ivan.Harhan.ORG> William Donzelli wrote: > About eight years ago, when I was at the big Downers Grove, IL POP (MCI), > the front desk got a call from an MCI telemarketer trying to get them to > switch their long distance sevice. About 3 years ago I was in a Cingular Wireless store in California resolving some issues with my cell service. There was some waiting involved, so I just hung out and chatted with the staff, whom I had gotten to know as a regular customer (I had multiple lines and had to change phones sometimes, etc). They got a call from a telemarketer offering them cellular service for their business. The guy had to politely explain to the caller that their business was a cell store... MS From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Tue Mar 1 21:56:24 2005 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:56:24 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109735784.7387.4.camel@azure> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 19:14 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Hudson wrote: > > > Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages > > regarding copyright. Never mind! > > Yes, the God of Copyright must be obeyed! All hail Life of Author + 70 > Years!! > > If we're lucky, our great grandkids will be able to see that video, if it > hasn't already cumbled into dust. ::sigh:: Yeah I wish we could go back to something reasonable (10-20 years) and only additional if it was registered and renewed. That way you would not have stuff crumbling to dust because the holder could not be found at least. That's not likely to happen in my lifetime though. Paul From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 21:59:05 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:59:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: > I am currently restoring a IBM System/7, not that tough. > http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman > > Got my System/3 back up and running again. I am very impressed - I wish I had more time to devote to my S/3. I forget - can yours run CCP? I have a 3348 with CCP on it, but the seal to the disk pack has been breached. Probably not the end of the world, but it sure would be comforting to know its not the only remaining copy. I am still looking for any 3348 packs - dead or alive. Also packs for the 3330. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:18:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:18:14 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:20:37 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Agreed... I have an Olympus D10 I picked up a couple of years ago... > > one important feature is that it has an external trigger input for a > > "bulb". I used it to take pictures of the Aurora Australis > > (http://www.penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/pix.cgi?target=2004) > Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. It's an amazing place. I've heard that tourists pay between $25K and $60K for trips to the Pole (the tourist companies have to haul each gallon of fuel in themselves - there is no public infrastructure, just what each government sets up for themselves). Trips to McMurdo are much cheaper, and trips to the peninsula are cheaper still (few $K) > I'm sure this is a really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it looks > like in real life? Amazing! It's not a stupid question... the camera sensor was open for 45-60 sec... the equivalent time exposure for the human retina is, obviously, much shorter, more on the order of 1/30 sec (which is why TV works and we don't see our lights flicker except under certain circumstances). As such, while we are sensitive to green light over other colors, and the auroral light _is_ green, it's so faint most of the time that it's more of a ghostly grey, except during really good solar storms. When the light is intense, it _is_ a stunning green, with reds and other colors occasionally, depending on the energy of the particles, the altitude that has maximal excitement, etc (Nitrogen and Oxygen can glow different colors (red/green) depending on their precise concentration and what quantum states are involved in photon release). When seeing "red" aurorae at Pole, the most common expresson are red fringes at the bottoms of green curtains. I've seen red pillars in Ohio, but those were caused by a different specific transition than red fringes. One of the oddest ones I saw last year was like a tube of Aquafresh had been squirted across the sky - horizon to horizon, a narrow (twice the width of the moon) wavy ribbon that was green, white, and red. I'd never seen the red that concentrated before. I have a few other pictures that need to be tweaked before I can put them up... the ones with some moonlight look like they were composited from a day shot on the ground with a night shot in the air - exposures long enough to have the aurorae visible really accumulate even a little bit of moonlight. Unfortunately, I didn't take my 35mm (Pentax P3) out much - probably only twice, and most of those shots have *huge* static streaks across the film - like green lightning forks going from edge to edge of the slide frame. They are caused by actual static discharges generating light inside the camera. The static buildup is caused by advancing the film in uber-dry air. :-( -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:22:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:22:56 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <20050301180300.X1121@localhost> References: <20050301180300.X1121@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:04:54 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings wrote: > Unlike film, you can'y simply open the shutter and integrate the > image over time arbitrarily. CCDs are extremely noisy; silver > nitrate (etc) it's at atomic scale. I routinely have to manually (GIMP) remove noisy pixels from my 30+ second night shots. It's a hazard with long exposure CCD shots. My Olympus D-10 (4MP) has about 20-30 pixels that *scream* to full blue, red, or white intensity from long exposure times. Nothing to do but mute each one down later. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 1 22:24:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:24:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Want IBM 400-series account machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Still, gotta love stuff that automates calculations with purely mechanical > methods (well, except for the 604) and uses punch cards. It's basically > the 20th century version of the Babbage engine. Well, electromechanical, as the unit record machines used relays, solenoids and thyratrons a fair amount. Still very neat-o. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:36:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:36:09 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200503011751.MAA25523@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503011751.MAA25523@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:46:32 -0500 (EST), der Mouse wrote: > > Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this > > is a really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it > > looks like in real life? Amazing! > > Well, I've never been to Penguin Central. But I spent six months in > Troms?, in northern Norway, and while they didn't look green to the > naked eye, the auroras there were even more spectacular, in some > respects, than what's in those pictures - in particular, they covered > far more of the sky. The example I have on my page just happens to be the first images I took last year, when it was barely dark enough to see them (2 or 3 weeks past sunset). We did have several sky-covering events over the winter, but those are difficult to photograph, especially with only a 36mm-equivalent lens field of view (a "standard" panoramic lens is on the order of 28mm field-of-view, and really wide angle lenses are around 16-24mm). Many of my photographs are of the intense ribbons we saw, because the all-sky events would just look like a green wash to the camera. Those are best experienced rather than photographed. Also... we are approaching a solar minimum on the sunspot cycle. We got more events and more aurorae than we "deserved" statistically. I'm not looking forward to my next visit, as it will most likely be fewer aurorae than last year. Location has a *lot* to do with the spread of aurorae, and not just latitude - relative position to the northern or southern magnetic pole is important... it's just as bad to be too close to the mag pole as to be too far south. One of the nice things about the location of the Geographic South Pole is that the auroral ring (have a look at the aurorae from space to see exactly what that looks like) passes over the top of the station right around lunch time. > I don't know why they didn't look coloured. Perhaps because the light > level was too low for much colour vision? That would be the most likely cause. Faint aurorae appear colorless to the human eye, but are the same color as intense ones - it's all about quantum levels and photon emission from excited gas atoms. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 22:39:51 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:39:51 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <00d801c51e85$a8110ae0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <18fa43f18f82f1.18f82f118fa43f@optonline.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050228162728.00b0f2a0@mail.30below.com> <1109683597.10421.6.camel@weka.localdomain> <00d801c51e85$a8110ae0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:39:43 -0500, John Allain wrote: > > Has that been post-processed in any way? The quality's not > > bad for a digital - no where near as grainy as most digital > > cameras are. {Olympus D10} > > It could just be an aspect of certain Olympus products. > I have an ancient Olympus digital (5.3 years old) that does > fantastically well at multisecond times. Yes, it was post-processed, and yes, it's grainy. It's also at least a 30 sec, and probably closer to 60 sec exposure. The D10 was reviewed in, IIRC, 2001, and I've had that particular one since mid-2003, so the design is on the order of 4 years old, if that helps assess its level of technology. At one point, it was an $1,800 top-end "pro-sumer" camera. I got it when it had been replaced by the 5 MP line, for a *lot* less. It's one of the last fixed-lens SLR digitals. A little while later, $2K got you a removable lens digital SLR. -ethan From fernande at internet1.net Tue Mar 1 22:41:59 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:41:59 -0500 Subject: Ebay items In-Reply-To: <4225355B.FC920314@msm.umr.edu> References: <4225355B.FC920314@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <42254417.2050503@internet1.net> That's the second time it's been listed. The problem is that basically you get two BA23 chassis, and two tons of scrap metal to go with it, plus two air conditioners that will have to be properly discharged and scrapped. Unless, a person could actually use all the other stuff, but I would think it's all specific to making highly accurate measurements. I don't think this was for machining. If you visit the web page, it talks about precision measuring, so I'm thinking it's more of a layout shop, used to sub out quality control procedures by other companies. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA jim stephens wrote: > This guy has a couple of pdp 11/53's and other stuff in a CNC case in > the > Chicago area. > > He probably didn't post anything here, but someone in the area might > find some > interesting stuff to grab. > > Looks like a part of a larger machine either upgraded or decomissioned. > > Jim > > Ebay Item , description > 5169944715 Digital DEC VAX PDP11 pdp 11 MicroVAX II Cold War > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 22:50:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:50:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: <1109735784.7387.4.camel@azure> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Paul Berger wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 19:14 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Hudson wrote: > > > > > Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages > > > regarding copyright. Never mind! > > > > Yes, the God of Copyright must be obeyed! All hail Life of Author + 70 > > Years!! > > > > If we're lucky, our great grandkids will be able to see that video, if it > > hasn't already cumbled into dust. > > ::sigh:: > Yeah I wish we could go back to something reasonable (10-20 years) and > only additional if it was registered and renewed. That way you would > not have stuff crumbling to dust because the holder could not be found > at least. Yeah, well, what I was getting at was that people pay way too much attention to laws that for all practical purposes are silly and should be ignored in certain cases. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 22:55:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:55:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > When seeing "red" aurorae at Pole, the most common expresson are red > fringes at the bottoms of green curtains. I've seen red pillars in > Ohio, but those were caused by a different specific transition than > red fringes. One of the oddest ones I saw last year was like a tube > of Aquafresh had been squirted across the sky - horizon to horizon, a > narrow (twice the width of the moon) wavy ribbon that was green, > white, and red. I'd never seen the red that concentrated before. You guys are lucky. Here in California, the only atmospheric oddity we ever see are from the residues of the occasional rocket launches from local AFBs. It's even better when they have to abort and the rocket is terminated :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 23:01:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:41 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? Message-ID: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? If so, I'll dig into it. Jay From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Tue Mar 1 23:07:27 2005 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:07:27 -0600 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109740047.7500.2.camel@azure> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 20:50 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Paul Berger wrote: > > > On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 19:14 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Hudson wrote: > > > > > > > Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages > > > > regarding copyright. Never mind! > > > > > > Yes, the God of Copyright must be obeyed! All hail Life of Author + 70 > > > Years!! > > > > > > If we're lucky, our great grandkids will be able to see that video, if it > > > hasn't already cumbled into dust. > > > > ::sigh:: > > Yeah I wish we could go back to something reasonable (10-20 years) and > > only additional if it was registered and renewed. That way you would > > not have stuff crumbling to dust because the holder could not be found > > at least. > > Yeah, well, what I was getting at was that people pay way too much > attention to laws that for all practical purposes are silly and should be > ignored in certain cases. I would generally agree ... in the case of the video in question nothing would come of hosting on a website or a torrent. It would be nice if the law was reasonable and worth respecting in this situation. Paul From elecdata1 at gbronline.com Tue Mar 1 23:11:01 2005 From: elecdata1 at gbronline.com (Elecdata1) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:11:01 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? References: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002201c51ee6$39f695a0$41650945@preferrc> NO I'm not Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: duplicate posts? > So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? > > If so, I'll dig into it. > > Jay > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 3/1/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.5 - Release Date: 3/1/05 From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 1 23:16:03 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:16:03 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: Message-ID: <01f101c51ee6$ef07bbe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > You guys are lucky. Here in California, the only atmospheric oddity > we ever see are from the residues of the occasional rocket launches > from local AFBs. Man I must be a skywatcher because I was only in CA for 4 years and I saw two Vandenberg rocket launches in that time. No advance warning, just look up and it was there. They launched them right after dusk across the sun terminator seemingly for extra effect.... Looked great! John A. From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 1 23:22:29 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:22:29 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? In-Reply-To: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301232220.07648648@localhost> I got this one twice. Same time/date stamp. At 11:01 PM 3/1/2005 -0600, you wrote: >So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? > >If so, I'll dig into it. > >Jay [Home] Home is where the heart is. --Pliny The Elder --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 23:34:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:34:17 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301232220.07648648@localhost> Message-ID: <006b01c51ee9$7a34c8a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You also are subscribed to both lists, with no "no mail" flag set on either one. Might want to set one of them to "no mail" via the web interface. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Peters" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:22 PM Subject: Re: duplicate posts? >I got this one twice. Same time/date stamp. > > At 11:01 PM 3/1/2005 -0600, you wrote: >>So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? >> >>If so, I'll dig into it. >> >>Jay > > > [Home] Home is where the heart is. --Pliny The Elder > --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... > tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc > WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 23:38:55 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:38:55 -0500 Subject: duplicate posts? In-Reply-To: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:41 -0600, Jay West wrote: > So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? I am not. I am only subscribed to cctalk. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 1 23:35:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:35:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Michael's Holley got Boing Boinged Message-ID: Getting Boing Boinged is like getting slashdotted but much more hip and cool: http://www.boingboing.net/ Scroll down until you get to the TV Typewriter posting, which then links to Mike's SWTPC website. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 1 23:45:53 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:45:53 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? References: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008a01c51eeb$195bed90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was referring to Tom. Are you getting double posts ethan? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:38 PM Subject: Re: duplicate posts? > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:41 -0600, Jay West wrote: >> So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? > > I am not. I am only subscribed to cctalk. > > -ethan > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 1 23:55:33 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:55:33 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301232220.07648648@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301232220.07648648@localhost> Message-ID: <42255555.5070609@jbrain.com> Tom Peters wrote: > I got this one twice. Same time/date stamp. > > At 11:01 PM 3/1/2005 -0600, you wrote: > >> So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? >> >> If so, I'll dig into it. >> >> Jay > I am, but I know why. I am getting one from cctalk and one from cctech. But wait.... I truly did unsubscribe from cctech, a few weeks ago, when Jay noted the first time about the relationship of the two lists. I did NOT mark no mail, I unsubbed. However, when Jay moved to the new list manager, I started getting messages again. So, my theory is that even though I went through the motions to unsub, the old list manager did not truly remove me, but marked me as no-mail or something similar. I have an unsubscribe from cctech around here in some mbox to back up my claim, should it be necessary. I was not a "lazy" person who just marked no-mail, to my knowledge anyway. In any event, I'm off to unsub again. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From aek at spies.com Wed Mar 2 00:04:14 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:04:14 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <200503020500.j224vkNj040492@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503020500.j224vkNj040492@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9b7d4ccf8bbd29f7f1c0f4a5433fdd55@spies.com> On Mar 1, 2005, at 9:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/ > so what about www.spies.com ? Lots of stuff on > the net give the same original link and the main > site is down The person who owns spies.com decided to shut down web service. With the exception of my personal pages, including the minicomputer orphanage, it should all still be at bitsavers. This happened abruptly in January, and I didn't have time to do much other than pull the disc that had all my stuff on it, which now doesn't spin up. From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 2 00:28:57 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:28:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: DG board ID? In-Reply-To: <001801c51ecf$ce35e7f0$6401a8c0@dcohoe> References: <001801c51ecf$ce35e7f0$6401a8c0@dcohoe> Message-ID: <20050301222804.K666@localhost> There's a 005- number that IDs the board. On the skinny little DG sticker if it has one it might be in the box labelled "A". 005- or 5- From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 00:43:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:43:54 -0600 Subject: Ramping up for Dayton (was Re: Age....) References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain><200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org><5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <013a01c51ef3$33ddb060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm toying with the idea of heading up to Dayton this year myself. If anyone else is going, let me know and maybe we can get some beer/dinner etc. Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 00:53:58 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:53:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-1 project milestone Message-ID: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> The PDP-1 Restoration Project is still far from complete, but we hit a major milestone tonight. When we last tried to run Spacewar, the sun and player ships would not display correctly, though the starfield and torpedos seemed to be fine. We ran the DEC instruction diagnostics and they failed on the shift/rotate test, though all the diagnostics had passed a few months earlier. This week we wrote a more specific diagnostic program and determined that left shifts and rotates of the I/O register were not doing anything, though right shifts and rotates of the I/O register were fine, and all shifts and rotates of the accumulator were fine. After a little study of the print set, we identified two system modules that could cause the observed behavior. We tried replacing one of them, a 1607 pulse amplifier. After replacing the 1607, our own diagnostic and the DEC diagnostic both passed. Some of the team wanted to go home without trying out Spacewar, but the rest of us nagged until they gave in. We loaded it, and it ran correctly. Spacewar on the real Type 30 display with long persistence phosphor is a thing of beauty! Some of the tasks remaining to be done: * build new Spacewar control boxes * continue repair/testing of Soroban console typewriter * adjust Type 30 display to factory specs (linearity is poor) * adjust paper tape reader sensitivity/threshold * diagnose & repair suspected flaky memory "module" 0 * voltage margin checks, run all diagnostics * install new belt and test BRPE tape punch Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 01:01:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Restoring IBM In-Reply-To: References: <4224F3E2.3060904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <32842.64.169.63.74.1109746892.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > But not in the SLT. They were different parts. IBM had no problems about > mixing SLT and other parts, such as driver transistors, delays, etc.. If you read the IBM JoR&D article, they describe how they fabricate capacitors and inductors on SLT modules. From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 1 16:12:29 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:12:29 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109610185.8698.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42235373.3090804@atarimuseum.com> <200502281805.NAA28253@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109619258.8698.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 28 Feb 2005, at 19:34, Jules Richardson wrote: > Under Linux, I don't think there's any way I can pull metadata off the > camera along with images - so if I take lots of shots under a trial and > error approach, I have to note down what settings I was using for which > shot which is getting to be a pain in the butt! Normally this information is stored as EXIF data which is actually embedded inside the JPEG image. I cannot remember the name of the specific program that reads them but it is a standard format so google should be able to throw something up. - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCJOjNxsNEmi5WofsRAgFdAJ4ykb1yn4oh39dfZNOOY8U40uL4ngCgiVfI U/qaBDwzOOkHX/3nhhHRRCk= =jsln -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 01:06:24 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:06:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <000901c51ecc$073e6b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c51ecc$073e6b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <32850.64.169.63.74.1109747184.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > There's a random assortment of data in sequential > locations and returning to those same locations I always get the same > value. [...] However, I can't store anything. Anytime I store a new > value in a location, that location gets all zeros. The fact that you can read a location repeatedly and get consistent data (provided that you don't explicitly write to the location) indicates that most of the circuitry involved in writing is actually working correctly. Reading core memory is destructive; you have to attempt to flip the magnetization and determine whether it actually flips. So a read operation is normally followed by a write of the same data to restore the original contents. That must be working. On the Unibus, there are two types of read cycles, DATI, and DATIP. DATI does what you would expect: it reads a word of the core memory, and the memory control (part of the memory system) is expected to handle restoring the data. On a DATIP cycle, the memory is not required to restore the data, because it will be followed by a DATO or DATOB cycle that writes new data to the same location. So your memory appears to be handling DATI cycles correctly, including the implicit rewrite. But either the memory is not handling DATO cycles correctly, or the CPU is not issuing them correctly. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 01:09:26 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:09:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32883.64.169.63.74.1109747366.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote: > What you're suggesting here is insanity. There's more chance something > will get damaged by disassembling it than by just transporting it whole. You can't fit an ASR33 into the back seat of most cars (other than convertibles) without partially disassembling it. And even if you did, it would be likely to fall over. If you have to put it in a car, you definitely want to separate the typing unit from the pedestal. Eric From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Mar 2 01:59:43 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:59:43 -0800 Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <200503012359.43359.lbickley@bickleywest.com> It was indeed thrilling to play Spacewar tonight on the PDP-1 - although I have to admit I was one of the team members who wanted to stop at the very positive note of having fixed the left shift/rotate bug - It was getting late and I was worried that Spacewar wouldn't run - and we'd have to leave tonight feeling slightly discouraged... I had played Spacewar in the early sixties at Stanford University and many years later (in the mid-70's) I ran Spacewar on my own PDP-12. But seeing it run tonight on the PDP-1 was amazing and exciting - a forty year old machine playing a spacewar game on a persistance-seven-screen was a sight to see and a great experience to feel!!!!! It, for sure, makes all the hours of labor and TLC spent on the PDP-1 worth it :-) Lyle On Tuesday 01 March 2005 22:53, Eric Smith wrote: > The PDP-1 Restoration Project is still far from complete, but we hit > a major milestone tonight. When we last tried to run Spacewar, > the sun and player ships would not display correctly, though the > starfield and torpedos seemed to be fine. We ran the DEC instruction > diagnostics and they failed on the shift/rotate test, though all > the diagnostics had passed a few months earlier. > > This week we wrote a more specific diagnostic program and determined > that left shifts and rotates of the I/O register were not doing anything, > though right shifts and rotates of the I/O register were fine, and all > shifts and rotates of the accumulator were fine. After a little study of > the print set, we identified two system modules that could cause the > observed behavior. We tried replacing one of them, a 1607 pulse amplifier. > > After replacing the 1607, our own diagnostic and the DEC diagnostic > both passed. Some of the team wanted to go home without trying out > Spacewar, but the rest of us nagged until they gave in. We loaded it, > and it ran correctly. > > Spacewar on the real Type 30 display with long persistence phosphor > is a thing of beauty! > > Some of the tasks remaining to be done: > > * build new Spacewar control boxes > * continue repair/testing of Soroban console typewriter > * adjust Type 30 display to factory specs (linearity is poor) > * adjust paper tape reader sensitivity/threshold > * diagnose & repair suspected flaky memory "module" 0 > * voltage margin checks, run all diagnostics > * install new belt and test BRPE tape punch > > Eric -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Wed Mar 2 02:04:34 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 03:04:34 -0500 Subject: duplicate posts? In-Reply-To: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: I am not getting duplicate posts but I am only receiving messages from you, nothing else from the list. Greg Manuel gmanuel at gmconsulting.net -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: duplicate posts? So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? If so, I'll dig into it. Jay >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Mar 2 03:03:55 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:03:55 -1000 Subject: T-shirts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109754235.4811.216358068@webmail.messagingengine.com> Those are good, but how can we forget about www.errorwear.com? There's nothing quite like wearing the ever infamous Windows BSoD on your chest! > These are much better: > > http://www.bustedtees.com/ David M. Vohs Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. "Scout": Otrona Attache. (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + "Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. "Neon": Zenith Minisport. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Mar 2 03:18:23 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:18:23 +0100 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050302101823.2867a87a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:12:58 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Having received some of these in the mail, what's the best way of > imaging them onto modern media? cptape and maketape from your favorite TUHS mirror, e.g. http://mirror.cc.vt.edu/pub/projects/Ancient_Unix/PDP-11/Tools/Tapes/ http://mirror.cc.vt.edu/pub/projects/Ancient_Unix/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 2 06:46:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:46:14 -0500 Subject: (no subject) References: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16933.46486.987000.698202@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: >> >> Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with >> >> the text: >> >> >> >> C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 Ashley> Got it! Ashley> I take it that you wore this shirt when you were a DEC guy? In college, working mostly on a RSTS system (PDP11/45) but also from time to time on IBM 360/44 (curiously running OS/360 PCP) and occasionally an IBM 1620. The shirt was a great hit at U Eindhoven (Holland) -- Burroughs country... paul From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 2 07:09:01 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:09:01 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova 4/X, photos In-Reply-To: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> References: <20050228192910.N25645@localhost> Message-ID: <4225BAED.3030705@gjcp.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > Or maybe it's just the low light in my lab; > http://wps.com/NOVA4/images/6070-cartridge3.jpg taken outside > seems OK. It bothers me. Autofocus has a hell of a time in low light conditions. My girlfriend's Fuji Finepix S602 hunts a bit when it's too dark. My old Sony CCD-V6000 video camera will sit and bang the lens from one end stop to the other as the light falls! Gordon. From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Wed Mar 2 07:16:37 2005 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:16:37 +0000 Subject: Looking for Layered Documentation for DEC APL V4.0 circa VMS 5.4/5.5 Message-ID: <200503021316.37822.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Hi, I managed to get DEC APL V4.0 working and am now looking for the associated layered documentation. It would correspond to OpenVMS Release 5.4/5.5. If anyone knows if DEC did supply layered documentation on CD for these releases at least this would be a start. Alternatively, if someone has access to the paper documentation :) The volumes I'm after are: "VAX APL Reference Manual" "VAX APL User's Guide" "VAX APL Language Summary" Many thanks to everyone who has offered their support and help so far. I can confirm that the product uses downloadable fonts for various terminals such as VT220, these work on my VT520. I'd bet there aren't many terminal emulators that can handle downloadable fonts! Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 2 07:43:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:43:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: <32883.64.169.63.74.1109747366.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > What you're suggesting here is insanity. There's more chance something > > will get damaged by disassembling it than by just transporting it whole. > > You can't fit an ASR33 into the back seat of most cars (other than > convertibles) without partially disassembling it. And even if you > did, it would be likely to fall over. If you have to put it in a > car, you definitely want to separate the typing unit from the pedestal. Yeah, sure. But what Tony was describing was a bit more involved than just separating the pedestal. Psycho comes to mind. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 2 08:38:54 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:38:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <16933.4672.109000.272412@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "Mar 1, 5 08:09:20 pm" Message-ID: <200503021438.GAA18344@floodgap.com> >>>Maybe I should republish the T-shirt I made up in college, with >>>the text: >>>C6 A4 83 92 40 C9 C2 D4 >See an EBCDIC code chart... But I *like* their hardware ... -_- -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Innovation is hard to schedule. -- Dan Fylstra ----------------------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 2 08:49:59 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:49:59 -0500 Subject: Ramping up for Dayton (was Re: Age....) In-Reply-To: <013a01c51ef3$33ddb060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302094640.039ddb20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >I'm toying with the idea of heading up to Dayton this year myself. If >anyone else is going, let me know and maybe we can get some beer/dinner etc. You plan on bringing the trailer?!?!?!? ;^> Anyway, barring any huge calamities, it looks like I maybe be able to attend. It would be good to visit with folks I didn't get a chance to meet during VCFEast... [[ And no, the wife *is not* coming this time!! ]] Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 2 08:58:35 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:58:35 -0500 Subject: WoffordWitch.com is now cookieless, stateless, and sessionless Message-ID: <012501c51f38$4fedc7a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> By popular demand, and to prevent further harassment, I have made my http://www.woffordwitch.com site cookieless, sessionless, and stateless. It will no longer prompt you to identify yourself and you may now browse it anonymously. I plan to do more site updates to better document my project(s) in the near future. Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 2 09:12:26 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:12:26 -0500 Subject: WoffordWitch.com is now cookieless, stateless, and sessionless References: <012501c51f38$4fedc7a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <013f01c51f3a$3f4cd010$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > By popular demand, and to prevent further harassment, > I have made my http://www.woffordwitch.com site > cookieless, sessionless, and stateless. It will no > longer prompt you to identify yourself and you may > now browse it anonymously. This also means that any content on my site will now be available to the search engine web crawlers, so it should now be indexed on google, etc. Ashley From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 2 09:12:06 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:12:06 -0500 Subject: WoffordWitch.com is now cookieless, stateless, and sessionless Message-ID: <1e8af3e1e90a9d.1e90a9d1e8af3e@optonline.net> > By popular demand, and to prevent further harassment, > I have made my http://www.woffordwitch.com site > cookieless, sessionless, and stateless. It will no > longer prompt you to identify yourself and you may > now browse it anonymously. > I an top that... some of my sites have recently become contentless..... From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 2 09:17:43 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:17:43 -0500 Subject: WoffordWitch.com is now cookieless, stateless, and sessionless References: <1e8af3e1e90a9d.1e90a9d1e8af3e@optonline.net> Message-ID: <015501c51f3a$fc3875d0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > By popular demand, and to prevent further harassment, > > I have made my http://www.woffordwitch.com site > > cookieless, sessionless, and stateless. It will no > > longer prompt you to identify yourself and you may > > now browse it anonymously. > > I an top that... some of my sites have recently > become contentless..... Contentless? Like how? Ashley From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 2 09:21:43 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:21:43 -0500 Subject: WoffordWitch.com is now cookieless, stateless, and sessionless Message-ID: <1e946131e978af.1e978af1e94613@optonline.net> > > > By popular demand, and to prevent further harassment, > > > I have made my http://www.woffordwitch.com site > > > cookieless, sessionless, and stateless. It will no > > > longer prompt you to identify yourself and you may > > > now browse it anonymously. > > > > I an top that... some of my sites have recently > > become contentless..... > > Contentless? Like how? > Server Crash..... Waiting for new parts to arrive in Denver. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 09:29:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:29:01 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware costs Message-ID: <011701c51f3c$aff2a220$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just got the invoice today for the classiccmp hardware upgrade. Intel D845GVSR P4 motherboard - $61.00 Intel Celeron 2.0ghz - $70.00 Copper Pentium heat sink & ball bearing fan - $26.00 36" 80pin IDE cable - $4.00 Missouri Sales Tax - $9.22 Total - $170.22 Cost of not having to worry about that damn system locking up constantly - Priceless :) If anyone wants to paypal to help out... the paypal ID is jwest at classiccmp.org Thanks! Jay From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 2 09:36:10 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:36:10 -0600 Subject: duplicate posts? In-Reply-To: <008a01c51eeb$195bed90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c51ee4$edb44bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302093515.06d1f830@localhost> Um, so which one should I be subscribing to? I'm not really sure anymore which list has the content I'm most interested in. At 11:45 PM 3/1/2005 -0600, you wrote: >I was referring to Tom. > >Are you getting double posts ethan? > >Jay >----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 11:38 PM >Subject: Re: duplicate posts? > > >>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:41 -0600, Jay West wrote: >>>So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? >> >>I am not. I am only subscribed to cctalk. >> >>-ethan > [Law] "For any twentieth-century American who'd been paying attention at all, the phrase 'criminal justice system' should have been warning enough." --L. Neil Smith (W.W. Curringer, in "Pallas") --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 2 10:02:03 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: duplicate posts? Message-ID: <1ec37371ec3126.1ec31261ec3737@optonline.net> > >>On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:01:41 -0600, Jay West > wrote: > >>>So is anyone still getting duplicate posts besides Mr. Corbin? > >> Jay the duplicate posts seem to have stopped. FWIW, the only duplicates I was getting were from YOU directly (primarily on the 11/45 Switch issues...) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 10:32:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:32:13 -0600 Subject: more duplicate posts Message-ID: <008201c51f45$652bf030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It seems that the duplicate posts fall into two categories... 1) People who were subbed to both lists, and had one of them set to "no email". This wouldn't be a problem, except during the member migration it lost the "no mail" setting. So, please check if you are subbed to both lists, and set one or the other to have the "no mail" flag. or 2) This one seems to be what is hitting a few people. I am not sure why this is happening... but for some people when I get an email from them and I hit "reply", the "to:" address shows their email address AND the list. So I'm actually responding to both places and that's why they get two emails. At this point I'm not sure if my own laptop has started doing something squirrely so that hitting reply picks up the list address AND the senders address, or if it has something to do with the list software, or if it has something to do with the senders setup. But anyways, it just dawned on me that more than a few times when I've hit reply to a post lately, I get the original posters address and the list address, both in the "to" box. Odd. I'll watch for it to happen again. Jay From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 2 10:48:03 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:48:03 -0700 Subject: 9track tapes & drives, denver area Message-ID: <4225EE43.605@ecubics.com> Anybody likes some 9track tape drives (no SCSI, all pertec) in denver area ? Some cipher, one (?) DEC TS05 ... Some tapes also Cheers From fernande at internet1.net Wed Mar 2 10:50:04 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:50:04 -0500 Subject: Ramping up for Dayton (was Re: Age....) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302094640.039ddb20@mail.30below.com> References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302094640.039ddb20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4225EEBC.2020201@internet1.net> Roger, Maybe you better not go..... Jay is likely to get even for that comment! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > You plan on bringing the trailer?!?!?!? ;^> From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 11:17:23 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:17:23 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <422504EA.6020702@ecubics.com> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> <63398.64.139.41.130.1109721140.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <422504EA.6020702@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <1109783843.12633.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 17:12 -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ Will take a look at that - thanks. Next question - anyone think of a good reason why a lot of old tapes I have containing tar archives seem to hit read errors at around 7.8MB into the tape? This is reading a pile of *unknown* DC600 tapes in a 150MB drive. I can't think of any reason why a lot of the tapes hit problems at almost exactly the same point; I mean the head and motor assembly must be fine to get that far. But equally it seems odd. Maybe tar has a "don't break at 8MB-ish" parameter or something ;) Or maybe the 150MB QIC drives aren't completely backwards-compatible with the 60MB ones.... (these particular tapes are old, I don't know how many times they've been used, what system wrote them even - but chunks of errors in the same place seems like a strange coincidence!) thoughts? Tried cleaning the drive already before anyone mentions it :) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 2 11:26:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:26:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <200503021726.JAA19191@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >Unlike film, you can'y simply open the shutter and integrate the >image over time arbitrarily. CCDs are extremely noisy; silver >nitrate (etc) it's at atomic scale. > > Hi Actually, once compensated, CCD's have much more dynamic range than film. They can be used to integrate over long periods of time ( usually cooled ). They have issues but don't confuse poorly compensated camera's with the ability of a CCD. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 2 11:30:50 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:30:50 -0500 Subject: more duplicate posts In-Reply-To: <008201c51f45$652bf030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302122821.00b0f640@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >It seems that the duplicate posts fall into two categories... > >2) This one seems to be what is hitting a few people. I am not sure why >this is happening... but for some people when I get an email from them and >I hit "reply", the "to:" address shows their email address AND the list. >So I'm actually responding to both places and that's why they get two >emails. At this point I'm not sure if my own laptop has started doing >something squirrely so that hitting reply picks up the list address AND >the senders address, or if it has something to do with the list software, >or if it has something to do with the senders setup. But anyways, it just >dawned on me that more than a few times when I've hit reply to a post >lately, I get the original posters address and the list address, both in >the "to" box. Odd. I'll watch for it to happen again. I've seen that with a few addresses on the list -- I'm subbed to enough lists that 1/2 do Reply-To munging, and 1/2 don't - so I [usually] remember to always check the To: list and remove one of the addresses... but it sounds like something odd set up in the individual users' MUAs - but I've never bothered to check the headers myself. Just a statistic, ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 2 11:31:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:31:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: more duplicate posts In-Reply-To: <008201c51f45$652bf030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > 2) This one seems to be what is hitting a few people. I am not sure why this > is happening... but for some people when I get an email from them and I hit > "reply", the "to:" address shows their email address AND the list. So I'm > actually responding to both places and that's why they get two emails. At > this point I'm not sure if my own laptop has started doing something > squirrely so that hitting reply picks up the list address AND the senders > address, or if it has something to do with the list software, or if it has > something to do with the senders setup. But anyways, it just dawned on me > that more than a few times when I've hit reply to a post lately, I get the > original posters address and the list address, both in the "to" box. Odd. > I'll watch for it to happen again. This is not your fault. As you may recall, we had this discussion about half a year ago, and it boils down to people not configuring their e-mail clients properly to obey the reply-to directive in the e-mail headers of the list messages. I tried to be list nanny for a short while and converted over a few people, but got tired of it so now I just ignore it. It's not that big of a problem, but it is annoying. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paulpenn at knology.net Wed Mar 2 11:33:25 2005 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:33:25 -0500 Subject: more duplicate posts References: <008201c51f45$652bf030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009301c51f4d$f0877840$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Jay; It has always worked that way for me when I hit "Reply All" in Outlook Express -- the To: block looks like this: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts I thought you set it up that way on purpose, although I couldn't imagine why. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From aek at spies.com Wed Mar 2 11:48:24 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:48:24 -0800 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes Message-ID: Next question - anyone think of a good reason why a lot of old tapes I have containing tar archives seem to hit read errors at around 7.8MB into the tape? -- That is the first time the tape reverses direction. You should always 'retension' the tape before trying to read it mt -f /dev/st0 retension works under most unix systems. This runs the tape out, and rewinds to BOT. If the tapes are old, there is a high probablility the tensioning belt in the cartridge is going to break. Keep a few new donor carts around to salvage the belts out of Be EXTREMELY careful when changing a belt to not damage the tape (it is very easy to damage since it is quite thin) From elecdata1 at gbronline.com Wed Mar 2 11:37:41 2005 From: elecdata1 at gbronline.com (classicelectronics) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:37:41 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware costs References: <011701c51f3c$aff2a220$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4225F9E4.BD031B96@gbronline.com> Hi Jay, I don't use paypal but I'd be happy to send you a check if you send me an offline email with your address. Bill Jay West wrote: > Just got the invoice today for the classiccmp hardware upgrade. > > Intel D845GVSR P4 motherboard - $61.00 > Intel Celeron 2.0ghz - $70.00 > Copper Pentium heat sink & ball bearing fan - $26.00 > 36" 80pin IDE cable - $4.00 > Missouri Sales Tax - $9.22 > > Total - $170.22 > > Cost of not having to worry about that damn system locking up constantly - > Priceless :) > > If anyone wants to paypal to help out... the paypal ID is > jwest at classiccmp.org > > Thanks! > > Jay > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.2 - Release Date: 2/28/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.2 - Release Date: 2/28/05 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 2 12:32:52 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:32:52 -0600 Subject: MousePads Message-ID: <016e01c51f56$3ff33880$06406b43@66067007> Does anyone else on the list collect mousepads? If so, what is the size of your collection and do you specialize? I was just looking over some the oddballs I have in my own collection which is over 600 pads (with a number of dups. included) and still growing. I collect all types such as those put out by computer companies, business of all types, pads with liquid/floaters inside of them, really oddball ones like the mousepad telephone sold by Sharper Image, odd shapes, and ones that are true artwork done by real artist (on commission) and children that are cancer patients. JohnK From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 2 12:29:09 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:29:09 -0700 Subject: DEC Documentation, RT11/RSX/VMS Denver area Message-ID: <422605F5.4040201@ecubics.com> Anybody likes to have it ? Free, PICKUP ONLY From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 2 12:45:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:45:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: more duplicate posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503021848.NAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > As you may recall, we had this discussion about half a year ago, and > it boils down to people not configuring their e-mail clients properly > to obey the reply-to directive in the e-mail headers of the list > messages. Not totally. My client _does_ obey Reply-To:, and I not infrequently see both the sender and the list in the To: when I do a reply. I haven't looked at it closely enough to know why. I speculate that when an incoming message specifies Reply-To:, the list adds itself there rather than replacing the header entirely. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 13:06:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:06:58 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! Message-ID: <00e101c51f5b$02500210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Thanks to a lot of generousity from a lot of folks, the purchase of the new hardware has been covered as of 1:06pm CST. Thanks! I'll cut a check to the vendor today. Jay From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 2 13:10:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:10:22 -0500 Subject: MousePads References: <016e01c51f56$3ff33880$06406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <16934.3998.585398.581729@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Keys" == Keys writes: Keys> Does anyone else on the list collect mousepads? If so, what is Keys> the size of your collection and do you specialize? I was just Keys> looking over some the oddballs I have in my own collection Keys> which is over 600 pads (with a number of dups. included) and Keys> still growing. I collect all types such as those put out by Keys> computer companies, business of all types, pads with Keys> liquid/floaters inside of them, really oddball ones like the Keys> mousepad telephone sold by Sharper Image, odd shapes, and ones Keys> that are true artwork done by real artist (on commission) and Keys> children that are cancer patients. I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that you might not have seen... oriental rug mousepads. There's the Mouse Rug, but that's a fake -- just an oriental pattern printed on a plain old mousepad. But there are also woven rug type pads, which are far nicer. I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Gorgeous. Great people, too. paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Mar 2 13:10:48 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 05 19:10:48 GMT Subject: more duplicate posts Message-ID: <0503021910.AA13118@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This is not your fault. As you may recall, we had this discussion about > half a year ago, and it boils down to people not configuring their e-mail > clients properly to obey the reply-to directive in the e-mail headers of > the list messages. No, that is not the problem. Since I read my mail with full headers using a very "raw" MUA that does *nothing* behind my back, I see what actually happens is this: most list messages arrive with Reply-To: set to the list, but some arrive with Reply-To: listing both the list and the author. Since the Reply-To: header is tweaked by the mailing list software, I can't see how it can behave so inconsistently. Since I am a hard determinist when it comes to computers, the only rational explanation I have is that there must be some differences in the headers of messages before they reach the list that causes the list software to process them differently. But of course in order to pin the problem down, one must see the messages in their original form prior to alteration by the list software, which I cannot do as a mere subscriber, only Jay or other list staff can do that. MS P.S. One thought: when I was designing my own mailing list management software, I implemented a feature by which a list can accept posts from non-subscribers with moderator approval. I implemented it so that it set Reply-To: header to both the list and the author on those approved outsider posts, on the reasoning that the author should see replies but won't see them on the list because he is not subscribed. I don't know anything about the software Jay uses for this list, but there is a chance that its authors followed reasoning similar to mine and the posts arriving with Reply-To: set to the list and the author come from non-subscribers approved by moderators. From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 2 13:15:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:15:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050302111443.M2930@localhost> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > After replacing the 1607, our own diagnostic and the DEC diagnostic > both passed. Some of the team wanted to go home without trying out > Spacewar, but the rest of us nagged until they gave in. We loaded it, > and it ran correctly. > > Spacewar on the real Type 30 display with long persistence phosphor > is a thing of beauty! Congratulations! From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 2 13:24:41 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:24:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200503021726.JAA19191@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503021726.JAA19191@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050302112142.I2930@localhost> >> From: "Tom Jennings" >> >> Unlike film, you can'y simply open the shutter and integrate the >> image over time arbitrarily. CCDs are extremely noisy; silver >> nitrate (etc) it's at atomic scale. On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Actually, once compensated, CCD's have much more > dynamic range than film. They can be used to integrate > over long periods of time ( usually cooled ). They > have issues but don't confuse poorly compensated > camera's with the ability of a CCD. I realized astronomical cameras for example use CCDs, most definitely cooled, for very long integrations, but the context of the conversation implied hand-held, non-cooled, ordinary, cameras. I wasn't slagging CCDs or holding chemical film on high (though would that be out of character for this list? :-); just wanted to point out things aren't simply linear like that. From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 2 13:28:43 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:28:43 -0500 Subject: MousePads References: <016e01c51f56$3ff33880$06406b43@66067007> <16934.3998.585398.581729@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <005001c51f5e$0c4d0c10$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that you might not > have seen... oriental rug mousepads. There's the Mouse Rug, but > that's a fake -- just an oriental pattern printed on a plain old > mousepad. But there are also woven rug type pads, which are far > nicer. > > I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Gorgeous. Great people, too. Interesting mouse pads. I'm saving that web site on my favorites so I can order some for friends for their birthdays/Christmas/etc. Ashley From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 2 13:26:36 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:26:36 -0600 Subject: MousePads References: <016e01c51f56$3ff33880$06406b43@66067007> <16934.3998.585398.581729@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <019f01c51f5d$c19871a0$06406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 1:10 PM Subject: Re: MousePads >>>>>> "Keys" == Keys writes: > > Keys> Does anyone else on the list collect mousepads? If so, what is > Keys> the size of your collection and do you specialize? I was just > Keys> looking over some the oddballs I have in my own collection > Keys> which is over 600 pads (with a number of dups. included) and > Keys> still growing. I collect all types such as those put out by > Keys> computer companies, business of all types, pads with > Keys> liquid/floaters inside of them, really oddball ones like the > Keys> mousepad telephone sold by Sharper Image, odd shapes, and ones > Keys> that are true artwork done by real artist (on commission) and > Keys> children that are cancer patients. > > I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that you might not > have seen... oriental rug mousepads. There's the Mouse Rug, but > that's a fake -- just an oriental pattern printed on a plain old > mousepad. But there are also woven rug type pads, which are far > nicer. > > I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Gorgeous. Great people, too. > > paul > Thanks for the tip :-) JohnK From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 13:33:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:33:22 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 09:48 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Next question - anyone think of a good reason why a lot of old tapes I > have containing tar archives seem to hit read errors at around 7.8MB > into the tape? > > That is the first time the tape reverses direction. Ahh - interesting! > You should always 'retension' the tape before trying to read it > mt -f /dev/st0 retension works under most unix systems. > This runs the tape out, and rewinds to BOT. Hmm, that works, but doesn't seem to help in this case as far as reading's concerned (tried with both rewinding and non-rewinding devices). I wonder if there is some incompatibility when reading 60MB tapes in a 150MB device. I've certainly got a native 60MB SCSI QIC unit in my Tek that I should try, assuming I haven't got one already sitting on the shelf where I keep spare hard drives and floppy drives... Possible it's also a Linux oddity with the tape subsystem I suppose. Blocking factor doesn't seem relevant as the unit's reading *something*. I'll see if I can find jumper settings for this 150MB drive too, just in case there's a "work with 60meg tapes" jumper missing ;) cheers J. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 2 13:49:06 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:49:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: more duplicate posts Message-ID: <200503021949.LAA19235@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov at ivan.harhan.org > >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> This is not your fault. As you may recall, we had this discussion about >> half a year ago, and it boils down to people not configuring their e-mail >> clients properly to obey the reply-to directive in the e-mail headers of >> the list messages. > >No, that is not the problem. Since I read my mail with full headers using >a very "raw" MUA that does *nothing* behind my back, I see what actually >happens is this: most list messages arrive with Reply-To: set to the list, >but some arrive with Reply-To: listing both the list and the author. > >Since the Reply-To: header is tweaked by the mailing list software, I can't >see how it can behave so inconsistently. Since I am a hard determinist >when it comes to computers, the only rational explanation I have is that >there must be some differences in the headers of messages before they reach >the list that causes the list software to process them differently. But >of course in order to pin the problem down, one must see the messages in >their original form prior to alteration by the list software, which I cannot >do as a mere subscriber, only Jay or other list staff can do that. Hi I just sent myself a message. The only thing I see is that the reply-to field has my email address in it. The list server must be simply appending the CCTALK address to what is there. I don't control that part of my mail tool so I annoy Sellam ;) Dwight > >MS > >P.S. One thought: when I was designing my own mailing list management software, >I implemented a feature by which a list can accept posts from non-subscribers >with moderator approval. I implemented it so that it set Reply-To: header >to both the list and the author on those approved outsider posts, on the >reasoning that the author should see replies but won't see them on the >list because he is not subscribed. I don't know anything about the software >Jay uses for this list, but there is a chance that its authors followed >reasoning similar to mine and the posts arriving with Reply-To: set to the >list and the author come from non-subscribers approved by moderators. > From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 2 13:56:56 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 12:56:56 -0700 Subject: BA23,BA123,BA213 Denver Area Message-ID: <42261A88.6020102@ecubics.com> Some complete, some for parts, PICK UP ONLY From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 2 14:02:00 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:02:00 -0600 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109783843.12633.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109718778.10421.72.camel@weka.localdomain> <4224FD4C.9010408@ecubics.com> <63398.64.139.41.130.1109721140.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <422504EA.6020702@ecubics.com> <1109783843.12633.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42261BB8.6020002@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 17:12 -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >>> http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ > > > Will take a look at that - thanks. > > Next question - anyone think of a good reason why a lot of old tapes I > have containing tar archives seem to hit read errors at around 7.8MB > into the tape? > > This is reading a pile of *unknown* DC600 tapes in a 150MB drive. I > can't think of any reason why a lot of the tapes hit problems at almost > exactly the same point; I mean the head and motor assembly must be fine > to get that far. But equally it seems odd. > > thoughts? Tried cleaning the drive already before anyone mentions it :) Did you retension and erase the tapes? *ducks* I don't know all that much about QIC in general, but I had the same problem with *two* Tandberg TDC3600 drives this week. I found my TDC 4220 and had no problems at all with the same cartridges. I sort of wonder if it's SCSI-I vs SCSI-II - these were hanging off a U2W Symbios adapter. For two drives to hiccup the same way in almost the same place, on several different tapes (two of which proved good on the TDC 4220), and with you seeing the same behavior, I think that's a protocol glitch. Doc From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Mar 2 14:07:13 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:07:13 -0000 Subject: Heavymetal Message-ID: <011201c51f63$6d979080$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I downloaded this and am using it with a LA100 instead of a teleprinter - the artwork is keeping the kids quiet (at least the bits I'll let them look at). I might even get the old Creed 7B teleprinter out and see if I can get it to run! Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 2 14:03:11 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:03:11 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: <00e101c51f5b$02500210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> I got the one about expenses being covered twice-- in both was the header To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" At 01:06 PM 3/2/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Thanks to a lot of generousity from a lot of folks, the purchase of the >new hardware has been covered as of 1:06pm CST. > >Thanks! I'll cut a check to the vendor today. > >Jay [Science Fiction] Not mapping the stars and galaxies but charting the unknown possiblities of existence... --Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 2 14:18:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:18:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taking photos of displays... Message-ID: <200503022018.MAA19252@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >>> From: "Tom Jennings" >>> >>> Unlike film, you can'y simply open the shutter and integrate the >>> image over time arbitrarily. CCDs are extremely noisy; silver >>> nitrate (etc) it's at atomic scale. > >On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> Actually, once compensated, CCD's have much more >> dynamic range than film. They can be used to integrate >> over long periods of time ( usually cooled ). They >> have issues but don't confuse poorly compensated >> camera's with the ability of a CCD. > >I realized astronomical cameras for example use CCDs, most >definitely cooled, for very long integrations, but the context of >the conversation implied hand-held, non-cooled, ordinary, cameras. >I wasn't slagging CCDs or holding chemical film on high (though >would that be out of character for this list? :-); just wanted to >point out things aren't simply linear like that. Hi It really depends on the actual CCD. I have one that I use un-cooled but it is a low noise CCD. I have used it for 5 min exposures. There is a static drift that is different on each pixel. I compensate by subracting the dark current field. This is not noise but would look like noise when used in an uncompensated photo. If one can make a dark field time exposure of the same length of time, one can subtract that and get a much better image, without cooling. Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 14:42:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:42:11 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> Message-ID: <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tom Peters had written.... >I got the one about expenses being covered twice-- in both was the header > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > At 01:06 PM 3/2/2005 -0600, you wrote: >>Thanks to a lot of generousity from a lot of folks, the purchase of the >>new hardware has been covered as of 1:06pm CST. >> >>Thanks! I'll cut a check to the vendor today. >> >>Jay So my question is, did anyone else get that same post from me twice? Jay From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Mar 2 14:52:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:52:11 -0800 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503021252.11229.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I got one post. Lyle On Wednesday 02 March 2005 12:42, Jay West wrote: > Tom Peters had written.... > > >I got the one about expenses being covered twice-- in both was the header > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > At 01:06 PM 3/2/2005 -0600, you wrote: > >>Thanks to a lot of generousity from a lot of folks, the purchase of the > >>new hardware has been covered as of 1:06pm CST. > >> > >>Thanks! I'll cut a check to the vendor today. > >> > >>Jay > > So my question is, did anyone else get that same post from me twice? > > Jay -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 2 14:52:36 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 14:52:36 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Tom Peters had written.... > >> I got the one about expenses being covered twice-- in both was the header >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> >> At 01:06 PM 3/2/2005 -0600, you wrote: >> >>> Thanks to a lot of generousity from a lot of folks, the purchase of >>> the new hardware has been covered as of 1:06pm CST. >>> >>> Thanks! I'll cut a check to the vendor today. >>> >>> Jay > > > > So my question is, did anyone else get that same post from me twice? Nope. I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a steak dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for the list maintainer. Doc From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 2 15:04:53 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:04:53 -0500 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost><006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. > > Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a > steak dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for the list > maintainer. > Doc I second that motion! Ashley From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 2 15:17:50 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:17:50 -0500 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <16934.11646.34412.85366@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: >> I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. >> >> Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a >> steak dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for >> the list maintainer. Doc Ashley> I second that motion! Aye! paul From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 15:18:06 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:18:06 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: All in favor? Aye. On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:04:53 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. > > > > Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a > > steak dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for the list > > maintainer. > > Doc > > I second that motion! > > Ashley > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 15:42:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:42:32 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1109799752.13133.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 19:33 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've certainly got a native 60MB SCSI QIC unit in my Tek that I should > try that's made all the difference. Either I have a bad 150MB drive (although it's read several 150MB tapes fine), or it just doesn't like 60MB tapes for whatever reason. Six of the seven tapes I had kicking around read fine with the Tek's 60MB drive. The seventh, which possibly has the most interesting stuff on, hits a few read errors partway through, and is also compressed so I don't know whether I can recover it. Typical! Now to see what's actually on all the others. Probably junk. :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 2 15:45:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:45:33 +0000 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? Message-ID: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Don't suppose anyone's come across anything that'll attempt to fix a corrupt .Z (Unix compress) file, have they? I've got a 40MB compressed tar archive here, but uncompress barfs after the first 23MB - it'd be nice if there was a way of skipping over the duff bits if possible and reading *something* from the last 17MB! cheers Jules From aek at spies.com Wed Mar 2 15:49:28 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:49:28 -0800 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes Message-ID: <0f9d776dc6db2ca18f5f812c285102f3@spies.com> I wonder if there is some incompatibility when reading 60MB tapes in a 150MB device. -- I've read hundreds of 60 meg tapes on 150 meg drives. What probably has happened is the end of the tape where the direction reverses either has been damaged due to the tape being slightly sticky with age, or there is now a pile of oxide and binder where the direction reversed. Whoever developed serpentine transports apparently never thought about the problem of oxide and binder shedding as the tape ages (or gets sticky). You end up with gunk on the head, which deposits itself on the tape when the head reverses direction. Since the real size of a QIC tape block is 512 bytes, you might try reading 512 bytes at a time to keep the drive from trying to form a larger block near the far end of the tape out of parts from the forward and backward tape directions. This also minimizes the data lost if a block can't be recovered. The down side is it can slow transfers down a lot. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 15:55:35 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <39539.64.139.41.130.1109800535.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jules wrote: > I've got a 40MB compressed tar archive here, but uncompress barfs after > the first 23MB - it'd be nice if there was a way of skipping over the > duff bits if possible and reading *something* from the last 17MB! I'm not sure what algorithm is used for ".Z" files. For ".gz", the answer would probably be no, because the dictionary is continuously updated and a corrupt area would get completely out of sync, with no obvious means to guess what the intervening dictionary updates should be. If ".Z" uses a simpler algorithm with a fixed dictionary (either completely fixed, or fixed for the duration of one file), recovery may well be possible. Eric From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 2 15:57:18 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:57:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost><006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <20050302135708.D2930@localhost> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > I second that motion! Likewise, I'm sure! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 2 16:06:48 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:06:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <20050302111443.M2930@localhost> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050302111443.M2930@localhost> Message-ID: <422638F8.6030003@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> After replacing the 1607, our own diagnostic and the DEC diagnostic >> both passed. Some of the team wanted to go home without trying out >> Spacewar, but the rest of us nagged until they gave in. We loaded it, >> and it ran correctly. >> >> Spacewar on the real Type 30 display with long persistence phosphor >> is a thing of beauty! > > > Congratulations! Same here. Now we all need a nice photo of it action. Ben alias woodelf From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 2 16:11:41 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:11:41 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! In-Reply-To: References: <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> <00aa01c51f6b$7b6efc40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302161135.07836ed0@localhost> Aye! At 03:18 PM 3/2/2005 -0600, you wrote: >All in favor? Aye. > > >On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:04:53 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. > > > > > > Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a > > > steak dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for the list > > > maintainer. > > > Doc > > > > I second that motion! > > > > Ashley > > > > [Humor] There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 2 16:34:21 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:34:21 GMT Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Taking photos of displays..." (Mar 1, 7:20) References: Message-ID: <10503022234.ZM6779@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 1 2005, 7:20, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Agreed... I have an Olympus D10 I picked up a couple of years ago... > > one important feature is that it has an external trigger input for a > > "bulb". I used it to take pictures of the Aurora Australis > > (http://www.penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/pix.cgi?target=2004) > > Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this is a > really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it looks > like in real life? Amazing! Yes, though the colours vary, and aren't static. Take a look at AuroraWatch, especially the gallery: http://www.dcs.lancs.ac.uk/iono/aurorawatch/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Mar 2 16:52:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring IBM In-Reply-To: <32842.64.169.63.74.1109746892.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: > If you read the IBM JoR&D article, they describe how they fabricate > capacitors and inductors on SLT modules. But did they ever leave the lab into large scale production? All of the SLT boards I have seen have had delay lines as external parts. I doubt IBM could get useful inductors in that tight space and still have room for anything else useful. Maybe a few microHenrys could be smashed in with the associated transistors and resistors, but that wouldn't do a whole bunch a good. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 2 12:05:16 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:05:16 +0000 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <10503022234.ZM6779@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Taking photos of displays..." (Mar 1, 7:20) Message-ID: <20050302230214.KHFS2034.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On Mar 1 2005, 7:20, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > Agreed... I have an Olympus D10 I picked up a couple of years > ago... > > > one important feature is that it has an external trigger input for > a > > > "bulb". I used it to take pictures of the Aurora Australis > > > > (http://www.penguincentral.com/cgi-penguincentral/pix.cgi?target=2004) > > > > Man, I have got to get me down to Antarctica some day. I'm sure this > is a > > really stupid question, bit is that greenish glow really what it > looks > > like in real life? Amazing! > > Yes, though the colours vary, and aren't static. Take a look at > AuroraWatch, especially the gallery: > http://www.dcs.lancs.ac.uk/iono/aurorawatch/ > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull We had aurora last fall or past winter and it was only a very faint green smudge, disappointing in the hindsight even that was phsyically first time to see one. This gallery is *awesome!*. Cheers, Wizard From dmhills at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:36:41 2005 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:36:41 +1200 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format In-Reply-To: <003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20050224194755.7264.h016.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> <003201c51b01$0332b820$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <2cbc8a1a0503021536568c00d6@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:12:41 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: > > Yes. The discussion is not about bytes, but about card images. > A card image (apart from some special ones like 96 bytes and "stubs" of > about 30 bytes) is 80 bytes. Furthermore, the lowest sectorsize that could > be formatted on a 3740, was 128 bytes. As there are 73 "user adressable" > tracks with each 26 sectors, there are only 1898 sectors. And as the > discussion is about card images, there is only room for 1898 cards, unless a > technique called spanning is used. The original diskette design was for a microcode load device for an IBM mainframe. I recall there was an IBM Journal of R&D article about it, I'll see if I can find it. 3740 DE (Data Entry) format actually had the option of 80 or 128 characters / "columns" per record. The basic 3741/3742 data entry station only did 80 characters per record, although the diskette sectors were always 128 data bytes. You had to order the optional feature (a plug-in ROM card) to support 128 characters per record. Track 0 was housekeeping and index. Tracks 1 to 73 ware data. I still have my 3741 alignment diskette. It has eccentric tracks, and there was a built-in ROM routine on the 3741/2 station to read a full track and display the sector addresses in binary. You adjusted the head alignment to get two areas of good IDs and two areas of bad IDs. The binary display was unusual, it actually displayed what looked like a capital "H" with additional horizontal bars for each 1 bit. "00" hex looked like "H", "FF" hex looked like a solid block,, "18" hex looked like a square-edged digit "8" etc. > > > IBM's 3740 data entry station put its stamp of approval on the > > floppy. The 3740 format is still the de facto interchange medium > > within the industry. > This is worth a whole new topic, as I happen to know a bit about that (I'm > running a service bureau for media conversion) > > > ... > > IBM's design for the 3740 was very conservative. At the time, IBM > > believed that floppies would be used for the batch entry of data. > That is correct; the 3740 family came to be rather big, eventually ending up > with the 3749(?) data entry station, where one could use DSDD floppies with > a sector length of 1024. IIRC, it could accommodate 6 segments per track, > ending up with 8 x 1024 x 73 x 2 = 1.1196.032 bytes > > > The full-sized floppy was designed to hold the same amount of > > information that 3,000 punch cards would hold - the maximum of > > what a single keypunch operator could do in a day. > See discussion on "spanning" > > Nico > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 17:56:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:56:55 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Harlem In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301161534.00c20320@localhost> Message-ID: <20050302185655.391f248c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:26:55 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The next Vintage Computer Festival will be held in Harlem: > > Vintage Computa Festival > > Duh Vintage Computa Festival be a international event that celebrates > the history uh computing. > > Duh mission uh duh Vintage Computa Festival be to promote the > preservation uh "obsolete" computas by offerin' peeps a chance to > experience duh technologies, peeps an' stories that embody the > remarkable tale uh duh computa revolution. > > Through our event an' duh Vintage Computa Festival Archives?our > publicly accessible archive uh computa hardware, software, literature > an' ephemera?we promote interest in researchin' an' documentin' duh > history uh duh computa. Above all, we promote duh fun uh playin' wif > old computas. > > http://www.degraeve.org/cgi-bin/babel.cgi?d=ebonics&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintage.org&w= > That reminds me of the BBS days when I once ran a whole bunch of discussion threads through the 'jive filter', deleted the originals, and reposted it all. This was possible because that particular BBS package allowed the originater of a discussion thread to delete all 'child' comments on the discussion thread. Needless to say people were OUTRAGED at seeing their own entries turned into Jive and I got into a LOT of trouble. Those were the days. Now I try to be a bit more ethical... From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 2 18:05:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:05:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503030005.QAA19351@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Made a mistake and left out part of the pointer. The first one should have been: http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/assembly/bios_data_area.html Hope this didn't cause any great confusion. Dwight PS Thanks to Robert Greenstreet for pointing this out. >>> >>>Hello Dwight, >>> >>>What I try to go to: >>> >>>http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/bios_data_area.html >>> and >>>http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/assembly/int_1e.html >>> From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 2 18:07:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:07:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Harlem Message-ID: <200503030007.QAA19356@clulw009.amd.com> >> old computas. Shouldn't that be spelled compudas? Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 17:26:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:26:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <42250FFC.50007@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 1, 5 05:59:40 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >Well, until some custom component fails and you can't get a replacement, > >anyway. One good thing about the old, mechanical, film cameras is that > >most parts could be made in a good home workshop (and they don't tend to > >fail anyway). > > > > > I'm just reading the "Lindsay's technical books" catalog and the book > "Simple Large Format Camera Construction" by E A Hover looks like nice book > to have around. See www.lindsaybks.com for more details. I will take a look. I'd like to make a camera one day, even though I've got plenty of commercial ones around (much as I like making computers, even though I've got plenty of those too). You can get a second-hand large-format camera for a few hundred pounds, and about the same for a lens/shutter. In other words less than a good digital camera. Sheet film is not cheap, but then again nor is the equipment and supplies to print from a digital camera. And the quality is nothing short of spectacular. Large format cameras are really suitable for taking snapshots (although they were used for newspaper work in the 1950s and before). If you want to take snapshots, well, I'd use a 35mm camera, you'd probably get some digital thing. But if you want to take top-quality pictures of static subjects (architecture, landsapes, classic computers, etc), then large format is, IMHO, the only way to go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 17:32:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:32:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <000901c51ecc$073e6b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 1, 5 08:03:28 pm Message-ID: > > Based on the docs I got from Ashley I was able to re-arrange the memory > section to be sane, cards were in the wrong slots. I was also able to get > the jumpers set right on the G110 card. Now when I power up I can definitely > read core correctly. There's a random assortment of data in sequential > locations and returning to those same locations I always get the same value. > That's a plus. > > However, I can't store anything. Anytime I store a new value in a location, > that location gets all zeros. Moving to another location I get data, and > moving back - zeros. So it appears to be challenged in writing, but not > reading, memory. The plot thickens :) Ah, but your memory is core, right? In which case, a 'read' is actually a write followed by a restore. Since you can read the same location and keep on getting the same data from it (you can do that, right?), the memory is basically working (for both read and write). Now, Unibus lines are almost all active-low. The data lines certainly are. Which means that a word of 0's corresponds to all the lines being high. And they're pulled up by the terminator ,and pulled down by the drivers on one of the CPU boards. Maybe you've got an enable problem to that driver, or maybe the data input buffers on the memory are playing up, or.... You could try writing to something else (perhaps the data register on your conosle termial card) to see if you can write to anything on the Unibus. Or if you have a logic probe, you could see if the data lines pulse low when you try writing 1's to a memory location. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 2 17:39:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:39:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 hold-down bolt... In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Mar 1, 5 06:59:52 pm Message-ID: > > If you're shipping it yourself (and have a reasonably large car), I'd > > ship it in bits. You'll want (or should want) to inspect things before > > powering it up anyway. > > <2 pages of diassembly instructions snipped> > > Um, or just ship it whole in the back seat of your car, where nothing will > happen to it. I have a box of teletype spares in my workshop. Until quite recently it contains the plastic bellcrank that goes under the run-out key. I gave said part to a fellow collector who shipped a teletype as you described. I am not sure what happend (took a corner too fast, went over a bump too fast, whatever). Anyway, the typing unit came off the rubber mounts and wrecked said bellcrank. It didn't do the keyboard linkage much good either. > > What you're suggesting here is insanity. There's more chance something > will get damaged by disassembling it than by just transporting it whole. Did you actually read what I wrote? All I am suggesting is removing the complete typing unit from the base pan, and taking the base pan off the stand. No more dismantling. To be honest, if you can't manage that without doing damage, you'll never keep an ASR33 running. -tony From elf at ucsd.edu Wed Mar 2 18:29:40 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:29:40 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302162621.0223d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> The recent death of Mr. Raskin has me Google'ing around for information about his Canon Cat machine. Even prior to his passing, I have always thought it a sweet looking machine. Does anyone of this list own a Canon Cat? If so, do you use it for any sort of regular everyday work? And what's your personal impression of the machine? Is it even possible to use it in the context of today's work demands (i.e., for email)? Or is a proper network interface & appropriate software the limiting factor here? From elf at ucsd.edu Wed Mar 2 18:57:13 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 16:57:13 -0800 Subject: MousePads Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302165148.02280480@popmail.ucsd.edu> > I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that > you might not have seen... oriental rug mousepads. > There's the Mouse Rug, but that's a fake -- just an > oriental pattern printed on a plain old mousepad. > But there are also woven rug type pads, which are > far nicer. > I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Yup - got me one too. Still using it at this moment. I picked it up at a Las Vegas Comdex convention some 7-8 years ago. The main reason I purchased it was the fact that it claimed to automatically clean your mouse. In fact, printed on the backside of it is: "Automatically Cleans Your Mouse" I don't remember ever having to clean my mouse since. (And yes - I still use a mechanical mouse with said mouse ball. Haven't gone optical yet.) From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 2 19:17:44 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:17:44 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302162621.0223d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302162621.0223d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <5d92577f4a161a95593a25aec74f9362@sbcglobal.net> There is a follow on to His "The Humane Interface" called Archy He also had at one point an editor called The Humane Environment (THE) I have a copy that runs under macintosh os9. I think the latter is more like the cat, but I am not sure it has the built in forth. http://www.raskincenter.org/index2.html On Mar 2, 2005, at 4:29 PM, Eric F. wrote: > The recent death of Mr. Raskin has me Google'ing around for > information about his Canon Cat machine. > > Even prior to his passing, I have always thought it a sweet looking > machine. > > Does anyone of this list own a Canon Cat? If so, do you use it for any > sort of regular everyday work? And what's your personal impression of > the machine? > > Is it even possible to use it in the context of today's work demands > (i.e., for email)? Or is a proper network interface & appropriate > software the limiting factor here? > From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 2 19:25:21 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:25:21 -0500 Subject: DEC RX50 Test Disks Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> I have a set of five RX50 floppies which contain various service tests. I have not yet discovered what machine/CPU these work upon. Could anybody point me in the direction of how to interpret the seven-character part numbers? All have a copyright date of 1983. They are as follows: CZUFDB1 (disk part # BL-T540B-M1 "USER TESTS") CZXD1B1 (disk part # BL-T541B-M1 "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1") CZXD2B0 (disk part # BL-T542B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2") CZXD3B0 (disk part # BL-T565B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3") CZXD4B0 (disk part # BL-T583B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4") Are these some version of XXDP? They came with the MVII and MicroPDP-11/73 systems that I got as part of The Great Haul back in July 1998, but there is no indication who they go to. I stumbled across something about deciphering those CZX-type numbers a while back but did not retain the URL (naturally, now that I need to use it). Thanks much. -Chris F. NNNN Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer Antique Wireless Association, Inc. Jamestown, New York USA email: cfandt at netsync.net Electronic/Electrical Historian URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 2 19:26:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:26:56 -0500 Subject: Taking photos of displays... References: <42250FFC.50007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16934.26592.562000.521442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I'm just reading the "Lindsay's technical books" catalog and the >> book "Simple Large Format Camera Construction" by E A Hover looks >> like nice book to have around. See www.lindsaybks.com for more >> details. Tony> I will take a look. I'd like to make a camera one day, even Tony> though I've got plenty of commercial ones around (much as I Tony> like making computers, even though I've got plenty of those Tony> too). If you're into classic stuff, Lindsay Books is an amazing resource. They specialize in reprinting unusual/rare/obscure/strange books about or related to technology, books old enough that the copyright has lapsed. That, and some new stuff of interest to the same audience. For example, you might find a big reference/training book about building steam locomotives, written back in the days when a book like that was necessary training materials for the new hands at the locomotive factory. Or a reprint of the 1942 edition of the South Bend Lathe Company "how to run a lathe" handbook. Or (example of new stuff) a book about how to make your own lathe starting with scrap aluminum, a few bags of charcoal, and some sand. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Mar 2 19:41:13 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:41:13 -0500 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302162621.0223d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302162621.0223d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <42266B39.4060209@atarimuseum.com> I owned a Canon Cat for several weeks, then sold it to Tom Owad... Its a little unusual at first to try and use, you have to get past modern conventions and try to view the device from the time/standpoint at which it was released. Product design is very nice, its a unique and well thought out packaging. The interface becomes easier and more intuitive over time, once you get used to it (reminds me of the learning curve I went through in College which I first worked on a Rainbow, the All in One software was difficult at first to grasp but became easier and more fun as time went by) I'd say the Cat wouldn't have been too widely adopted no matter the marketing angle or approach, it was a superb machine and keystroke interfacing system, but so far off from standards that many would've unjustly criticized it and became fustrated with its use. Curt Eric F. wrote: > The recent death of Mr. Raskin has me Google'ing around for > information about his Canon Cat machine. > > Even prior to his passing, I have always thought it a sweet looking > machine. > > Does anyone of this list own a Canon Cat? If so, do you use it for any > sort of regular everyday work? And what's your personal impression of > the machine? > > Is it even possible to use it in the context of today's work demands > (i.e., for email)? Or is a proper network interface & appropriate > software the limiting factor here? > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 2 19:38:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:38:03 -0700 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <16934.26592.562000.521442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42250FFC.50007@jetnet.ab.ca> <16934.26592.562000.521442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42266A7B.2010407@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >For example, you might find a big reference/training book about >building steam locomotives, written back in the days when a book like >that was necessary training materials for the new hands at the >locomotive factory. Or a reprint of the 1942 edition of the South >Bend Lathe Company "how to run a lathe" handbook. Or (example of new >stuff) a book about how to make your own lathe starting with scrap >aluminum, a few bags of charcoal, and some sand. > > Well I'mm looking at that set of books now ... They keep going and going and going... I was thinking the book "Plastic injection molding machine" might be useful for duplicating small parts like switch handles or other plastic parts. Ben alias woodelf. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 2 20:00:45 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:00:45 -0800 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format Message-ID: <000a01c51f94$d0b1eef0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Don Hills wrote >The original diskette design was for a microcode load device for an >IBM mainframe. I recall there was an IBM Journal of R&D article about >it, I'll see if I can find it I happen to have the 25th Anniversary issue of the IBM Journal of Research and Development, Sept 1981. There is an article on page 701. The IBM Diskette and Diskette Drive by J. T. Engh The diskette and diskette drive have had a major influence on data processing. They provide a low-cost, compact, high-performance solution to the need for a reusable magnetic medium and have largely replaced the punched card in many applications. Early applications were simple program-load functions. Today these have expanded to a wide range of medium exchange, information storage, and data processing applications. This paper examines the history of the development of these products within IBM. The discussion includes some of the alternatives considered and some of the problems encountered during these developments. You can find it on the IBM Research site http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/255/ibmrd2505ZE.pdf My business card was in the book with an email address of uw-beaver!entropy!dataio!holley Michael Holley From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 2 20:47:46 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:47:46 -0800 Subject: classiccmp- [double posts] References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost> <006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42267AD1.E63CA9FE@msm.umr.edu> After turning off the cctalk subscription, I am no longer recieving double posts. It was a bit strange to do so. I tried the passwords on the web interface that I had used, and they didn't work, so I sent in a reminder. Did you tell all this and I am only now being a stoopid user and discovering it (probably) anyway for anyone else who is getting double posts: 1. look at both posts, show all header fields in your browser. 2. look for such a field as "List-Unsubscribe". 3. the last value in the <> field should be either cctech> or cctalk> 4. if you have such postings, go to the web page, and make one of the lists no mail. 5. wait for some posts to come by, and you should now get only one. you may have to get a new password to log in and change it if you have not gone in since the server was moved. Jay West wrote: > > So my question is, did anyone else get that same post from me twice? > > Jay only because of being subscribed to both lists, which is now fixed. Jim From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Mar 2 21:23:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:23:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format In-Reply-To: <2cbc8a1a0503021536568c00d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > 3740 DE (Data Entry) format actually had the option of 80 or 128 > characters / "columns" per record. The basic 3741/3742 data entry > station only did 80 characters per record, although the diskette > sectors were always 128 data bytes. You had to order the optional > feature (a plug-in ROM card) to support 128 characters per record. There is an original 3741 Data Station manual up on Ebay right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5171239786 Darn tootin' I know the seller. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Mar 2 21:30:26 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:30:26 -0500 Subject: DEC RX50 Test Disks In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <422684D2.50704@compsys.to> >Christian R. Fandt wrote: > I have a set of five RX50 floppies which contain various service > tests. I have not yet discovered what machine/CPU these work upon. > Could anybody point me in the direction of how to interpret the > seven-character part numbers? All have a copyright date of 1983. They > are as follows: > > CZUFDB1 (disk part # BL-T540B-M1 "USER TESTS") > CZXD1B1 (disk part # BL-T541B-M1 "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1") > CZXD2B0 (disk part # BL-T542B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2") > CZXD3B0 (disk part # BL-T565B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3") > CZXD4B0 (disk part # BL-T583B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4") > > Are these some version of XXDP? They came with the MVII and > MicroPDP-11/73 systems that I got as part of The Great Haul back in > July 1998, but there is no indication who they go to. > > I stumbled across something about deciphering those CZX-type numbers a > while back but did not retain the URL (naturally, now that I need to > use it). Jerome Fine replies: I am (almost) positive that these are XXDP programs for the PDP-11. And while I suspect that Al Kossow (or someone else) has them on file and available, this is the first time I have seen the part numbers and names. BUT, just in case, please make sure that you don't toss them until someone has an EXACT copy for long term storage. Probably most PDP-11 operating systems can do this, but I am only familiar with RT-11: COPY/DEVICE/FILES DU1: DU0:T540B.DSK DIFF/BIN DU1: DU0:T540B.DSK and repeat for T541B, T542B, T565B and T583B. Once saved as files, they can be copied to a convenient system, MD5 and Zipped. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 2 21:50:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:50:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...QIC stuff...] > Blocking factor doesn't seem relevant as the unit's reading > *something*. For QIC tapes, yeah, blocking factor is irrelevant. Unlike traditional Unix tapes, which are streams of variable-length records and tape marks, QIC tapes are streams of 512-byte blocks and tape marks. (The quintessential Unix tape is probably an 800bpi nine-track half-inch tape, which approximately doesn't exist these days.) In passing, on the "whom to reply to" thread, this message came in with a header > Reply-To: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk, > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > I noticed this when I tried to reply and saw both addresses in the To:; upon checking, I found that Reply-To:. How it got that way, of course, is a different question. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 2 21:59:13 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:59:13 -0500 Subject: origins of IBM 3740 diskette format In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:00:45 PST." <000a01c51f94$d0b1eef0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200503030359.j233xDqp007903@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Michael Holley" wrote: >Don Hills wrote >>The original diskette design was for a microcode load device for an >>IBM mainframe. I recall there was an IBM Journal of R&D article about >>it, I'll see if I can find it I have been meaning to say all along this discussion - I thought they were designed to local microcode into 370's. That's the first time I saw one. It was stuffed inside a 370 and it had microcode on it. (I saw the service tech fooling with it and he showed me how it worked. But then I just *had* to find out what microcode was. Little did I know it would be like following Alice down the rabit hole :-) Can't remember what vintage that machine was. I think it ran DOS/VS and CICS. I do remember it had a giant refrigerator box of 3rd party memory which must have been all of 4mb. A 370/138 maybe? That machine ran 24/7 and was generally busy. heh. I remember I wrote a hack to submit little card jobs from the CICS terminals. It would freak out the operators because these jobs would appear in the print queue from space. I was quietly told to cease and decist by my boss :-) fortunately I discovered a dec-20 shortly after that. -brad From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 2 22:02:57 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:02:57 -0500 Subject: LSI-11/2 microcode source Message-ID: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Does anyone have the microcode source code for the PDP11 native instruction set on the LSI-11/2/WD chips? it purportedly provided with the LSI-11 WCS option (KUV-11 -M8018) The descriptions I've found in documentation located on bitsavers say the the kit included the microcode assembler/linker tools as well as the full ' 11 source .mic code for reference. Meagan? Alternate anyone have info on reading out the WD PMOS roms? I've got 3x working M7264 LSI-11/2(quad height) with all the MICROMs loaded as well as a M7270 LSI-11 (dual height), they all run RT fine. Anyone know if you can just swap the MICROMS to make a WD Pascal Microegine? Would be a good set if you already have an 11/23, 11/73 looking to complete the set. Open to interesting trades. Heinz From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 2 21:55:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:55:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Don't suppose anyone's come across anything that'll attempt to fix a > corrupt .Z (Unix compress) file, have they? Not me, but it may be doable manually, depending. What kind of error do you have? Wrong data, dropout, insertion, you don't know, what? > I've got a 40MB compressed tar archive here, but uncompress barfs > after the first 23MB - it'd be nice if there was a way of skipping > over the duff bits if possible and reading *something* from the last > 17MB! In theory it may be possible. compress (.Z) uses Lempel-Ziv-Welch. An insertion or dropout is relatively hard to fix, in large part because it means you have trouble telling where compressed values' boundaries are. Wrong data is comparatively easy; it will give you a corrupt decoding table (or an outright error if the coded value is out of range and the decoder bothers to check), but if the decompressed data is highly redundant it's often fixable. To fix an insertion, I'd basically have to just try deleting various numbers of bits or bytes (depending on the medium, what the probable unit of insertion is may vary) until you get sane decoded output. To fix a dropout, I'd try inserting varying numbers of 0 bits (or bytes) until I started getting garbled (instead of totally garbage) decoded output, then treat it as corrupted data. To fix corrupted data, I'd use a decoder that lets you look at the decompression table. (This description assumes you know LZW. If you don't, and you can't find a good description easily, write me off-list; it's a relatively simple algorithm.) When you get the first garbled output, look at what decompression table entry the bogus bits came from. Then look back to where that entry was created and see what you'd have to change to make it come out right. Repeat until you get a clean decompression. (If you get a code-out-of-range error, you know which compressed code is broken; try the different possible valid codes until you get something that makes sense locally, and of the few that do, look to see which produce clean data following.) There is another possibility: ignore the garbling and keep decompressing. If you're lucky, the encoder will emit a clear code soon and you'll start over with a clean table, at which point you will suddenly start getting non-garbled decompression. (If you're unlucky, the encoder will hold off on the clear code.) Of course, all this depends on the decompressed data being relatively nonrandom (so you can tell when you ahve garbled data). tar headers certainly qualify; depending on what the files contained in the archive are, they may or may not qualify. Running text in a natural language, and programs in most computer languages, qualify as well. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Mar 2 22:27:24 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:27:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, der Mouse wrote: > > In theory it may be possible. compress (.Z) uses Lempel-Ziv-Welch. An > Described here in some detail - interesting! http://www.dogma.net/markn/articles/lzw/lzw.htm Cheers Jhn From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 2 22:53:53 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:53:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: LSI-11/2 microcode source In-Reply-To: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <32897.64.169.63.74.1109825633.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Heinz wrote: > Alternate anyone have info on reading out the WD PMOS roms? Reading the MICROMs wouldn't be that difficult. But it's not the whole story. The control chip has two metal-mask PLAs ("translation arrays") that can cause PC changes even when the current microinstruction is not a branch, based on two 8-bit translation registers and various other inputs. I can envision two ways to dump the translation arrays. 1: Capture a whole lot of logic analyzer traces covering both the Qbus and the microinstruction bus while executing a variety of PDP-11 software. Write software to parse the traces, identify translation branches, track the expected translation register contents, and build up logic equations. This is a lot of work and wouldn't be guarateed to come up with identical PLA equations, though if you run enough traces through you'd probably get close. 2: Deencapsulate a control chip with fuming nitric acid, take a high resolution photomicrograph, and spend a lot of time studying it to figure out the topology of the PLAs. > I've got 3x working M7264 LSI-11/2(quad height) with all the MICROMs > loaded as well > as a M7270 LSI-11 (dual height), they all run RT fine. Anyone know > if you can just swap the MICROMS to make a WD Pascal Microegine? You can't, because the translation arrays are different in the LSI-11, Pascal Microengine, and WD-16. The data path chip of the Pascal Microengine and WD-16 are the same, but I'm not 100% certain that it's the same as that of the LSI-11. Also, the system-level interface of the LSI-11 and Pascal Microengine are different. There are four bus control signals from the MICROMs that get decoded for bus control, and they are not used identically in the LSI-11, Pascal Microengine, and WD-16. Even if you swap the control chip along with the MICROMs, the Pascal Microengine doesn't know how to talk to a Qbus. Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 23:49:14 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:49:14 -0600 Subject: classiccmp hardware is covered! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050302140203.07837300@localhost><006801c51f68$4f60f020$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42262794.2070109@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <025601c51fb4$bb99f290$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > I have a motion I'd like to present to the list, though. > > Any receipts over the cost of the hardware need to be spent on a steak > dinner (or the equivalent) and/or a case of $beverage for the list > maintainer. I appreciate the sentiment, really. But running classiccmp is a labor of love more than anything. I'll keep the extra in my desk drawer for any future upgrades, although it's unlikely there will be any for a good while now unless the mirrored 160gb drives aren't enough at some point. I had considered a few other things though. One example I was thinking about was using the overage to help defray the cost of the group dinner we'd all probably have at VCF midwest, but then I figured that wouldn't be fair to the people who donated and didn't go to VCF east. But I'll tell you all... who you REALLY owe thanks to is John Lawson and Paul Williams. They spend many hours taking care of the most boring moderation task of manually moderating the mail from cctalk to cctech. Kudo's to them! Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 23:58:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:58:13 -0600 Subject: more duplicate posts References: <200503021949.LAA19235@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <028801c51fb5$fc80d390$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Here's the odd part. The list is not doing this consistantly. Most traffic I get from the list, I just hit "reply" and the reply goes only to the list. But on Dwight's post..... to the list, I hit reply and noticed that the To: window in outlook was filled in with both Dwight's email address AND the address of the list. Digging further, I see that his post on the list has the Reply-To header set to both his email address AND the list. But most peoples post to the list don't do that. So far I haven't dug deep enough, but I get the distinct feeling this is a client MUA problem. I suspect that the new version of mailman is doing something different that the old version masked. More specifically, I think the list software is doing something different, but not incorrect. I'll dig further after sleep :) (and yes, dwight, you'll get duplicates of this post ;)) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 00:12:38 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:12:38 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <02b601c51fb8$00933ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Ah, but your memory is core, right? In which case, a 'read' is actually a > write followed by a restore. Since you can read the same location and > keep on getting the same data from it (you can do that, right?), the > memory is basically working (for both read and write). Correct, I'm aware core does the write after read. I'm suspecting unibus trouble but see below... > You could try writing to something else (perhaps the data register on > your conosle termial card) to see if you can write to anything on the > Unibus. Or if you have a logic probe, you could see if the data lines > pulse low when you try writing 1's to a memory location. I'll have to figure out what address my console card is. I'll see if there's any docs on bitsavers for the M7800. If I'm reading some of the paperwork correctly, whatever memory address the card is set for corresponds to a real core location and I'd just read/write to that specific address (DEC has a rather odd definition of the word "register" to me) to see if the problem changes. However, if I have a unibus problem, isn't the M7800 which is in an SPC slot still going across the unibus? I haven't had my logic probe out in years... I thought it blipped on pulse high not pulse low. Surely that's settable. I'll check :) More germane info below... One thing I noticed I'm not sure I mentioned. When I turn on both power supplies, 9 out of 10 times the system will come up with the pause and master lights lit. No switches on the front panel will do anything at all. Even setting the halt switch and hitting start (the lights change while start is depressed, but when releasing start the lights go back just the way they were and no switches change anything). The only way I found to turn on the system and have the front panel come up active is to move the halt switch to halt and then power up. Then I can read core, etc. I'm not sure what this behaviour means, but reading some docs I have it sounds like this indicates a problem with unibus getting to the memory. Thanks for all the advice! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 00:48:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:48:02 -0600 Subject: Ramping up for Dayton (was Re: Age....) References: <200502261213.HAA18440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><1109448213.4895.0.camel@weka.localdomain><200502261642.52371.pat@computer-refuge.org><5.1.0.14.2.20050226201904.03ab7e10@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050302094640.039ddb20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <033501c51fbc$f348e2c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Roger wrote... > You plan on bringing the trailer?!?!?!? ;^> Hey, the trailer works great now, since it has two new tires ;) Jay From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 01:08:57 2005 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:08:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSI Software Find! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050303070857.54977.qmail@web50505.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Bill, Any chance of your making binary copies of your working disks available? That would be a boon to the rest of us OSI owners. Dave --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Well, since my C4P-MF has been rock solid stable > since I > fitted the new power supply and cleaned the drive > head, > I've been going through a bunch of 25 (and more) > year old > diskettes to see just what I have. > > Lo-and-behold! > > On a diskette simply labeled OS65D 3.2 (not > originally mine, > acquired I don't know where), I found really nice > machine > code implementations of Space Invaders and > Asteroids! You > don't usually see machine code programs on OSI > diskettes, the > OS was too crude to have a simple binary loader. > Diskettes > usually have BASIC programs, with maybe a couple of > USR$ > sub-routines in data statements. To load and > execute the > programs, you have to EXIT from BASIC into the > sub-monitor and > then load the diskette tracks into memory one at a > time. Once > you have it loaded, then you GO to the starting > address. I > think that these programs might have been originally > intended > to be loaded from cassette tape. Fortunately, the > diskette had > two BASIC programs, each of which PRINTs the > instructions for > loading the machine code programs. I'm really happy > about this! > People usually see OSI boxes running rather slow > interpreted > BASIC programs. These two programs show just what > an OSI box > can do. There is no attribution for the Asteroids > program, but > the Space Invaders is copyright 1980 by Michael > Kincaid. > > Can't wait to show these at TCF! > > Bill > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 3 01:20:40 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 02:20:40 -0500 Subject: LSI-11/2 microcode source References: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> <32897.64.169.63.74.1109825633.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <00cf01c51fc1$818c1e40$3a92a8c0@maggie> "Eric Smith" replied: Subject: Re: LSI-11/2 microcode source darn - I was hoping it was simpler! too bad the PLAs can't be deduced from the native microinstruction set/ISA.. knowing the binary contents of the first MICROM would be enough for me.. I guess the addresses need only to be sequenced, data read (with an analyzer) while providing the odd voltages and multiphase clocks... unless someone out there has the listing ;) my M7270 contains a control chip 1611-H 21-16890-00 (8015 date), and CP1621B14 data chip while my M7264 has a DEC badged ceramic 1611A 21-11549-01 (7717 date) The AM100 appears to have a1611B. I assume these are diff. mask sets. What the WD1600 stock set use? The Pascal Microengine? regards h > Heinz wrote: > > Alternate anyone have info on reading out the WD PMOS roms? > > Reading the MICROMs wouldn't be that difficult. But it's not the > whole story. The control chip has two metal-mask PLAs ("translation > arrays") that can cause PC changes even when the current microinstruction > is not a branch, based on two 8-bit translation registers and various > other inputs. > > You can't, because the translation arrays are different in the LSI-11, > Pascal Microengine, and WD-16. The data path chip of the Pascal > Microengine and WD-16 are the same, but I'm not 100% certain that it's > the same as that of the LSI-11. > > Also, the system-level interface of the LSI-11 and Pascal Microengine > are different. There are four bus control signals from the MICROMs that > get decoded for bus control, and they are not used identically in the > LSI-11, Pascal Microengine, and WD-16. Even if you swap the control > chip along with the MICROMs, the Pascal Microengine doesn't know how to > talk to a Qbus. > > Eric > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 3 06:55:35 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:55:35 GMT Subject: DEC RX50 Test Disks In-Reply-To: "Christian R. Fandt" "DEC RX50 Test Disks" (Mar 2, 20:25) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <10503031255.ZM8181@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 2 2005, 20:25, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > I have a set of five RX50 floppies which contain various service tests. I > have not yet discovered what machine/CPU these work upon. Could anybody > point me in the direction of how to interpret the seven-character part > numbers? All have a copyright date of 1983. They are as follows: > > CZUFDB1 (disk part # BL-T540B-M1 "USER TESTS") > CZXD1B1 (disk part # BL-T541B-M1 "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 1") > CZXD2B0 (disk part # BL-T542B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 2") > CZXD3B0 (disk part # BL-T565B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 3") > CZXD4B0 (disk part # BL-T583B-MC "FIELD SERVICE TESTS 4") > > Are these some version of XXDP? They came with the MVII and MicroPDP-11/73 They're the standard XXDP disks that came with a microPDP-11 -- they were probably supplied with your microPDP-11/73 when it was new. They're no use for a VAX. Aren't these the same disks you asked about last May? I posted a listing of the directories then. There is a manual for XXDP, but I don't have it (unless it's buried in my microfiche somewhere, which I don't think it is). However, I put my notes and extracts of the help files on my web page a long time ago, and you can still find them here: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.pdf http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.ps (same contents, just different file formats). Those will allow you to work out what most of the files do. There's also a partial list at http://starfish.osfn.org/rcs/pdp-11/xxdp/xxdp25_notes.txt Al and Henk had a discussion some time ago about scanning the documents (program-specific instructions and listings) for each of the diagnostics. Each one is normally known by a name like ZRQBH0, or more often just ZRQB, where the first letter refers to the processor type, the next 2 to the device, the fourth to the test number. The last letter and digit are the revision and patch level -- so ZRQBH0 is to run on any processor ("Z"), to test some part of an MSCP disk system ("RQ"), test "B" -- actually it's the formatter for an RD51 or RD52 on an RQDX1 or RQDX2 controler (ZRQC is the corresponding formatter for an RQDX3). It's therefore slightly unfortunate that Al indexed his by a different scheme, but not too hard to find what you want (if it's in his archive). Look at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/XXDP/ for some scans. The initial "C" on some of the names refers to the media it was supplied on. It's not really part of the name. Henk has summaries of some that are relevant to his interests, on his web page at http://www.pdp-11.nl (see the menu entry for XXDP on the left) which are fine to get you going, but many of the disgnostics halt on varous errors, and you often need the listings to see what caused the halt, or to do more than simple tests. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 3 07:09:21 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:09:21 GMT Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: imaging DC600A QIC tapes" (Mar 2, 22:50) References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 2 2005, 22:50, der Mouse wrote: > In passing, on the "whom to reply to" thread, this message came in with > a header > > > Reply-To: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk, > > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > I noticed this when I tried to reply and saw both addresses in the To:; > upon checking, I found that Reply-To:. > > How it got that way, of course, is a different question. Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary "Reply-to:" header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only when you want replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:"), and then mailman is applying the principle of "least modification" and *appending* the classiccmp address, rather than replacing the one Jules' mailer put in. I've noticed this with posts from one or two other listmembers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 07:24:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:24:38 +0000 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 22:55 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > Don't suppose anyone's come across anything that'll attempt to fix a > > corrupt .Z (Unix compress) file, have they? > > Not me, but it may be doable manually, depending. What kind of error > do you have? Wrong data, dropout, insertion, you don't know, what? It was an unknown - uncompress just died with "corrupt input", which could be any of the above. As Al (I think it was Al) suggested, I started playing around with doing multiple reads from the tape and after several passes I got enough to reconstruct the archive - so the specific problem's gone. However the question about fixing .Z files still stands - I'm suprised that given how long the format's been around, nobody ever published a utility to attempt to fix corrupt files. > In theory it may be possible. compress (.Z) uses Lempel-Ziv-Welch. An > insertion or dropout is relatively hard to fix, in large part because > it means you have trouble telling where compressed values' boundaries > are. Wrong data is comparatively easy; it will give you a corrupt > decoding table (or an outright error if the coded value is out of range > and the decoder bothers to check), but if the decompressed data is > highly redundant it's often fixable. *likely* this was corrupt data, but I'm not certain what reading from a tape under linux does when a bad block is found. I'd expect it to still spit out a corrupt block but flag the error. Maybe it doesn't and just truncates the output, which isn't too helpful at all (particularly as there's no way in GNU tar to print out block numbers of faulty blocks, despite what the documentation says). > There is another possibility: ignore the garbling and keep > decompressing. If you're lucky, the encoder will emit a clear code > soon and you'll start over with a clean table, at which point you will > suddenly start getting non-garbled decompression. (If you're unlucky, > the encoder will hold off on the clear code.) I'd assume that's what uncompress does anyway, but possibly not. It'd seem more logical to me for it to restore as much as it could but still flag an error, rather than just barfing at the first sign of trouble. But if that were the case, then the file I was decompressing really was rather broken. Still, all sorted now in this instance. A file listing of the archive suggests that I might have the only source code copy to bits of Acorn's ARX and Brazil operating systems (or possibly the whole lot), which is why I was keen to get this one particular tape read. Time to extract the archive and see exactly what there is there... cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 3 07:42:06 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:42:06 GMT Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Re: 11/45 progress" (Mar 3, 0:12) References: <02b601c51fb8$00933ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <10503031342.ZM8265@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 3 2005, 0:12, Jay West wrote: > I'll have to figure out what address my console card is. The console on all PDP-11s is at the same place, 777560-777566 (add "17" in front for a 22-bit system, though). The first word is the receive control and status register (CSR), the next is the receive buffer register, then the transmit CSR, and lastly the transmit buffer register. So if you have a terminal connected, and with baud rate, parity, and word size to match the M7800 settings, simply DEPositing a value into 777566 should cause the corresponding ASCII character to appear on your terminal. If you type a character on the terminal, it should appear in the lowest 8 bits of 777562. > However, if I have a unibus problem, isn't the M7800 which is in an > SPC slot still going across the unibus? Yes. But trying it will tell you if the problem is in the CPU drivers or the memory buffers, for example. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 07:49:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:49:49 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 13:09 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary "Reply-to:" > header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only when you want > replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:") Possibly fixed now :-) (we'll see when this hits the list...) J. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 3 08:14:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:14:17 GMT Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: imaging DC600A QIC tapes" (Mar 3, 13:49) References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503031414.ZM8324@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 3 2005, 13:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 13:09 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary "Reply-to:" > > header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only when you want > > replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:") > > Possibly fixed now :-) (we'll see when this hits the list...) Yep, that's fixed it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From news at computercollector.com Thu Mar 3 08:56:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 06:56:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mainframes buttons and Gordon Moore... Message-ID: <20050303145621.45002.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Two interesting articles: - http://tinyurl.com/63yx9 (cnet) - http://tinyurl.com/6y6rb (computerworld) ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Mar 3 10:14:57 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:14:57 -0500 Subject: TRAC; Two TI DS10 disk packs available Message-ID: <1109866497.6486.63.camel@abort.crash.com> The following are available, but with a request. Two clean TI DS10 (TI-990 era) disk packs. I've been charged by a friend with finding a good home from them, which I think means someone from this list trying to keep a TI-990 in good order. The catch is, we'd like to get any recoverable data off of these disk packs. My friend is a board member for the TRAC Foundation. TRAC is "an interpretive, recursive, string-based, macroprocessing language with no compile step" invented by Calvin Mooers starting in 1959. Going to www.tracfoundation.com one finds that "entire subroutines can be inserted, or deleted, from a running procedure, thus massively changing the behavior during runtime." Whoa! Imagine changing a sort routine half way through a long running job... The reason I mention TRAC is that there's a chance one of these packs has important/useful information about the TRAC language, and my friend would really appreciate it if the new owner could check for and recover anything that's on these. That's the only catch - we want whatever can be read from them. And whoever wants them would need to pony up for shipping and handling, or come collect them near Boston, MA, USA. I can try to scrounge up a suitable box, but the packs might have to go through the UPS Store too. So, preference will be given to the person who stands the best chance of recovering data. I can wait a week to see what responses come in. Thanks, --Steve. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 3 10:21:32 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:21:32 -0500 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> Anyone have an Amiga Mouse (for use on a 4000T) for sale? It doesn't need to be pretty, but it does need to work. I checked ePay, but most are in Brittania where shipping would be a bear, and the few that remains are "parts" or bundles... Unforch, I'm in a bit of a hurry for this - it rides on getting the rest of the 4000T (which the owners have ever-so-quickly gotten in a big hurry to get rid of, but need to remove personal data first, and don't have the keyboard or mouse! :-/ ) I just got an Amiga keyboard on ePay, but alas, no easy mice... (not even the Atari/Amiga switchable ones... :-( ) Anyone have a working spare they're willing to sell? "Have Paypal, Will Travel"... Also... Jay: If it'll help you track down the Reply-To: address munging "weirdness" Evan's email address *always* comes up with the list address's's's; I always have to manually remove his address from the To: field when replying to a post of his. Hope this helps, and thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From news at computercollector.com Thu Mar 3 10:39:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:39:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050303163931.86693.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> >>>> If it'll help you track down the Reply-To: address munging "weirdness" Evan's email address *always* comes up with the list address's's's; I always have to manually remove his address from the To: field when replying to a post of his. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger ------ That's odd. Could it be something wrong on my end? (LOL, I hope no one tries to blame this on top-posting!) - EK ===== Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Mar 3 10:40:04 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:40:04 -0500 Subject: TI-990 recollections Message-ID: <1109868004.6486.75.camel@abort.crash.com> I'm in contact with two gents who worked on TI-990's back in the 80's. Since this platform doesn't get a lot of traffic on the list, I thought I'd share their recollections of working on these systems. ======== Gentleman N [ Referring to the pictures/links posted a few days ago of a [ TI-990 in L.A. ... The disk drives for this computer is actually a pair of drives in one enclosure. One removable and the other "fixed" internally. They both have the same capacity (5MB I think). The funky terminal is just that. It's a great monochrome terminal with addressable cursor and it is fast for its day when compared to VT52/VT100s. The OS seemed decent from what little I used it but I never did any programming with it. In 1986 I helped out Bryan with an old client in Honolulu who had a rack mounted version with three DS10's where two of the unit (four drives) had failed with head crashes (don't move packs between drives after those funny scrapping sounds begin). The service guy had the system already repaired and I helped get the their accounting system going again. I went back 1987-89 and wrote a new version running on i386/AT&T Unix System V Release 3 so they could have more modern hardware. It was a nice system...but not an IBM 1401 (or CDC 8090)! ======== ======== Gentleman A Wow, that's a (nice) blast from the past. And to help connect the dots, I am a friend of Bill's who handed over a customer with one of these for Bill to provide software support. I had a 2 person company (sales guy and me) that developed business applications for a chain of radio stations, and we needed a system that we could resell 1) quickly; 2) with no cash upfront; 3) that was reasonably powerful for a multi-user terminal based application. This was around 1980, and we talked to all the usual suspects, DEC, Data General, HP, maybe Wang... It's been a while. Anyway the TI folks basically sold us a machine and delivered it, no cash down, 120 days to pay, lots of support, etc. I had the thing in my living room of my bachelor-pad apartment for a few months of development and testing, then we delivered it to the client. The application was in Fortran (is that correct Bill?), but I remember writing a few little assembler tools and twiddling a few bits here and there. Once we delivered it to the customer my access was somewhat limited to bug-fix and enhancements during evenings and weekends, so I didn't get to play with it as much as I would have liked. The coolest thing I remember from the OS was a near real-time display of in-memory processes. Sort of a graphical version of 'top' mapped onto physical addresses. ======== From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 3 10:41:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:41:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503031642.LAA28466@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary >> "Reply-to:" header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only >> when you want replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:") > Possibly fixed now :-) (we'll see when this hits the list...) Yes, that message showed up here with only the list in the Reply-To:. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 10:46:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:46:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: LSI-11/2 microcode source In-Reply-To: <00cf01c51fc1$818c1e40$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> <32897.64.169.63.74.1109825633.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <00cf01c51fc1$818c1e40$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <32863.64.169.63.74.1109868398.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Heinz wrote: > my M7270 contains a control chip 1611-H 21-16890-00 (8015 date), > and CP1621B14 data chip while my > M7264 has a DEC badged ceramic 1611A 21-11549-01 (7717 date) The CP1611 is the data chip, and the CP1621 (23-002C4) is the control chip. The MICROMs are CP1631B-07 (23-002B5) and CP1631B-10 (23-001B5) for the standard instruction set, and CP1631B-15 (23-003B5) for EIS/FIS. The standard instruction set MICROMs may both be packaged onto a single hybrid, DEC P/N 23-002B6 or 23-003B6. > The AM100 appears to have a1611B. I assume these are diff. mask sets. > What the WD1600 stock set use? The Pascal Microengine? The WD16 uses CP1611B-03 for data, CP1661B-03 for control, and CP1631B-27, -29, and -30 MICROMs. The WD/9000 Pascal microengine chipset uses CP2151B data, CP2161B-02 control, nd C2161B-14, -15, and -18 for the final version of the MICROMs, though there were earlier releases that presumably had other numeric suffixes. It is known that the CP2151 data chip will work on an AM100 board (WD-16), so it probably will work on an LSI-11 as well. It is not yet known whether a CP1611 data chip will work in a Pascal Microengine; it is possible that the CP2151 has added features, but it is also possible that they are functionally identical. None of the control chips and MICROMs are interchangeable. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 10:48:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:48:21 +0000 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1109868501.14353.32.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:21 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Unforch, I'm in a bit of a hurry for this - it rides > on getting the rest of the 4000T (which the owners have ever-so-quickly > gotten in a big hurry to get rid of, but need to remove personal data > first, and don't have the keyboard or mouse! :-/ ) Is letting them keep the hard drive to do with as they see fit an option? I assume any software for these machines is *reasonably* easy to get hold of via Amiga enthusiasts, so losing the disk might be a possibility if it's that or lose the entire machine? Just a thought! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 10:56:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:56:24 +0000 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: <20050303163931.86693.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050303163931.86693.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1109868984.14353.33.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 08:39 -0800, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > That's odd. Could it be something wrong on my end? (LOL, I hope no one tries > to blame this on top-posting!) I blame the media ;-) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 10:59:21 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:59:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: LSI-11/2 microcode source In-Reply-To: <32863.64.169.63.74.1109868398.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <00a901c51fa5$e2b27be0$3a92a8c0@maggie> <32897.64.169.63.74.1109825633.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <00cf01c51fc1$818c1e40$3a92a8c0@maggie> <32863.64.169.63.74.1109868398.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <33033.64.169.63.74.1109869161.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: > The WD/9000 Pascal microengine chipset uses CP2151B data, CP2161B-02 > control, nd C2161B-14, -15, and -18 for the final version of the > MICROMs, Several typos, due in part to this d*&# malfunctioning USB KVM switch. Should have been "and CP2171B-14, -15, and -18". Eric From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 3 11:10:45 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:10:45 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:06:07 EST." <16931.31151.225466.208411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: ... >cycle N-1. This could produce weird looking code like this: > > clr foo ; bne bar > >because the bne would react to the result of the previous line ALU >operation. It takes an unusually strange mind to cope with an >architecture like this. (No wonder Richie Lary liked it...) heh. try the TI TMS320C6000 DSP (the 642 in particular). It has 6 ALU's and can execute 8 instructions at one time. The loads and stores are delayed 4 cycles. If you access a register too soon you get the old data. oops. no pipe stalls for you, thank you very much. after using the 642 the MIT lisp machine microcode was a snap :-) it only delays alu results and data fetches 1 cycle. it's often hard to find enough work to fill 4 delay slots without nop's. (don't get me wrong, I love bit slice alu's and the 2901 in particular. I used to sleep with a copy of "Mick & Brick", one of my favorite books.) -brad From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 3 11:16:51 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:16:51 -0500 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <005601c52014$ca86e500$04781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... > Anyone have an Amiga Mouse (for use on a 4000T) for sale? It doesn't need > to be pretty, but it does need to work. I checked ePay, but most are in > Brittania where shipping would be a bear, and the few that remains are > "parts" or bundles... Unforch, I'm in a bit of a hurry for this - it rides > on getting the rest of the 4000T (which the owners have ever-so-quickly > gotten in a big hurry to get rid of, but need to remove personal data > first, and don't have the keyboard or mouse! :-/ ) I just got an Amiga > keyboard on ePay, but alas, no easy mice... (not even the Atari/Amiga > switchable ones... :-( ) > > Anyone have a working spare they're willing to sell? "Have Paypal, Will > Travel"... > > Also... Jay: > > If it'll help you track down the Reply-To: address munging "weirdness" > Evan's email address *always* comes up with the list address's's's; I > always have to manually remove his address from the To: field when replying > to a post of his. > > Hope this helps, and thanks! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- Sorry I don't have a spare mouse to send you (those things are hard to find), but if you really need one in a hurry try softhut in PA, Ohio. http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/input_devices/mice_amiga.html&cart_id=3577956_20916 $21.95 is a bit steep, but what can you do. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 11:51:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:51:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRAC; Two TI DS10 disk packs available In-Reply-To: <1109866497.6486.63.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Steve Jones wrote: > That's the only catch - we want whatever can be read from > them. And whoever wants them would need to pony up for > shipping and handling, or come collect them near Boston, MA, > USA. I can try to scrounge up a suitable box, but the packs > might have to go through the UPS Store too. You should also request a foot massage while you're at it. Getting data off old disk packs is seldom as easy as popping it into a drive and issuing a "copy" command. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paulpenn at knology.net Thu Mar 3 11:51:24 2005 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:51:24 -0500 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain><200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004401c52019$9e3a0180$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Jules said: > Possibly fixed now :-) (we'll see when this hits the list...) What did you change, and what email program are you using? Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 3 11:57:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:57:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <200503031757.JAA19846@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric F." > >The recent death of Mr. Raskin has me Google'ing around for information >about his Canon Cat machine. > >Even prior to his passing, I have always thought it a sweet looking machine. > >Does anyone of this list own a Canon Cat? If so, do you use it for any sort >of regular everyday work? And what's your personal impression of the machine? > >Is it even possible to use it in the context of today's work demands (i.e., >for email)? Or is a proper network interface & appropriate software the >limiting factor here? > > Hi I have a Cat. There are some companies that still use these as editing machines. That is why they seem to be missing from the collector group in general. I got mine from Al Kossow. I had to replace the lithium battery in it but it otherwise works OK. I'd love to get some information on the memory and I/O mapping. It expects to use particular printers so it would be nice to rewrite the driver to work well with my 3SI. I could imagine that if I were doing a lot of writing for college or writing a book, I'd find the editor a real advantage. It has one other nice feature. One can write out a formula and it will give you the answer. It is kind of like having a spread sheet in your text. Of course, if you know the secret key sequence, you can bring it into the Forth mode. From here, you can access the inner machine as well. You can write Forth code and execute it in the text as well. It then becomes a spread sheet plus at that point. Still, it is primarily a text machine in black and white. I talked with Jeff about two years ago. He definitely had interesting ideas about computer interfaces. He didn't think much of the mouse. Besides being the major source of carpal tunnel syndrome (sp?) it is a real time waster for most applications. The machines code wasn't completely written in Forth but Jeff does attribute the quick software development and the fact that there were no errors found in the released version to using Forth in the creation of code. Forth tends to make a person do incremental testing as the code is written. This often helps to produce error free code in the final product. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 3 12:03:02 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:03:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reply-To: behavior was Re: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050303095948.L648@localhost> On Thu, 2 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Reply-To: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk, >>> "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >> >> I noticed this when I tried to reply and saw both addresses in the > To:; >> upon checking, I found that Reply-To:. >> >> How it got that way, of course, is a different question. > > Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary "Reply-to:" > header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only when you want > replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:"), and then mailman is > applying the principle of "least modification" and *appending* the > classiccmp address, rather than replacing the one Jules' mailer put in. > > I've noticed this with posts from one or two other listmembers. I think Jay's right -- mailman may have changed, but it's not necessarily incorrect. There are few subtleties involving To:/Reply-To: processing but it's one of those things a lot of MUAs make configurable. Pine's "reply-always-uses-reply-to" in feature-list, for example. From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Mar 3 12:13:02 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:13:02 -0500 Subject: TRAC; Two TI DS10 disk packs available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109873582.6486.93.camel@abort.crash.com> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 09:51 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > You should also request a foot massage while you're at it. Or perhaps I'll have to offer one to get the requested help ;^) Since the guys I've been talking to worked in Hawaii I'll have to see if they can produce grass skirted masseuses... > Getting data off old disk packs is seldom as easy as popping it into a > drive and issuing a "copy" command. I may have been unclear -- we're just looking for a basic effort here, not hard core get-the-data-at-all-costs work. If the pack in unreadable, if the HL format's bad, it's not the end of the world. We don't *know* that there's important data on there, but there's a good chance this is the only copy of something interesting (like TRAC source for the TI 990) and we'd like to get it if it's easily readable on the appropriate equipment. Yeah, I guess I was pretty vague in terms of what level of effort we're requesting. My bad. Hope this clears it up. Thanks, --Steve. "Chaos will ensue if the variable i is altered..." -- System V Programmers Guide From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 3 12:14:41 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRAC; Two TI DS10 disk packs available In-Reply-To: <1109866497.6486.63.camel@abort.crash.com> References: <1109866497.6486.63.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: <20050303101006.I648@localhost> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Steve Jones wrote: > My friend is a board member for the TRAC Foundation. TRAC is > "an interpretive, recursive, string-based, macroprocessing > language with no compile step" invented by Calvin Mooers > starting in 1959. Going to www.tracfoundation.com one finds > that "entire subroutines can be inserted, or deleted, from > a running procedure, thus massively changing the behavior > during runtime." Whoa! Imagine changing a sort routine half > way through a long running job... > > The reason I mention TRAC is that there's a chance one > of these packs has important/useful information about the > TRAC language, and my friend would really appreciate it if > the new owner could check for and recover anything that's > on these. But won't Mooers sue him if the recoverer even looks at the code?!! TRAC certainly died from Mooer's silly legal ideas (he copyrighted or otherwise restricted the language syntax or something) and from the looks of the language, would not have lasted past 1975 much anyways, it's quite second-generation. Not that I don't think recovering it will be tres f'ing cool. Will us mortals get to see it though? Or will it end up packratted away from info theives? Other than big coverage in COMPUTER LIB/DREAM MACHINES and some other papers and such, I never could see what all the fuss was about, though it makes it fascinating today in another sort of way. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 3 12:16:11 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:16:11 -0600 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: <1109868501.14353.32.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> <1109868501.14353.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4227546B.6060904@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 11:21 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Unforch, I'm in a bit of a hurry for this - it rides >>on getting the rest of the 4000T (which the owners have ever-so-quickly >>gotten in a big hurry to get rid of, but need to remove personal data >>first, and don't have the keyboard or mouse! :-/ ) > > > Is letting them keep the hard drive to do with as they see fit an > option? I assume any software for these machines is *reasonably* easy to > get hold of via Amiga enthusiasts, so losing the disk might be a > possibility if it's that or lose the entire machine? > > Just a thought! Or another thought - AFFS is supported by Linux and the A4000T disk is probably IDE. It could be mounted in a Linux box, the filesystems archived as dd images for protection first, then mounted and transcribed to CD-R or whatever. If it's possible, that would be much easier than working with the data on the A4000T. Doc From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 3 12:21:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:21:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20050303101928.K648@localhost> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > (don't get me wrong, I love bit slice alu's and the 2901 in particular. > I used to sleep with a copy of "Mick & Brick", one of my favorite books.) Wow... I missed my opportunity to work on a big 2901-based realtime video system, I wanted to work on the thing but it was a big stinky military project, otherwise glad I turned it down. THe Nova 4's built with a variant though. From emu at ecubics.com Thu Mar 3 12:22:10 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:22:10 -0700 Subject: VT220, vt320, vt420, Denver area Message-ID: <422755D2.3090609@ecubics.com> Pickup only please From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 3 12:26:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:26:16 +0000 Subject: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: <004401c52019$9e3a0180$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109857789.14338.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <004401c52019$9e3a0180$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <1109874376.14338.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 12:51 -0500, Paul A. Pennington wrote: > Jules said: > > > Possibly fixed now :-) (we'll see when this hits the list...) > > What did you change, and what email program are you using? I'm using Evolution (v1.5.93, Slackware 10) - there was a reply-to field textbox under 'optional information' within the settings for my default mail account (which is the one I use to read/post to the list). I don't remember filling it in by hand, so I suspect that the wizard that runs when Evolution is first started after an install did it, copying from my 'from' address. I just wasn't sure if simply clearing the field would screw things up (in the sense the program would spaz and still try inserting a reply-to field with an unknown value) but by all accounts it's worked. :-) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 12:29:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:29:28 -0600 Subject: no list traffic for cctech - culprit explained Message-ID: <004d01c5201e$ef931a30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I dug into some of the complaints that people on cctech weren't getting any posts, except from me. Here's what happened. Remember that cctech is 100% moderated. Nothing goes to it without moderator approval. The moderators are behind ;) I just checked and there's a few days of messages in there. I'm sure this will get caught up soon enough. In addition - why are cctech people getting posts just from me? Well, see above, PLUS, I set my own subscription to cctech to not require moderation. Thus, any posts I make go straight to the users without an approval step. I did this because sometimes when I send out notices like "I'm taking the server down for a while", cctech users don't get them immediately like cctalk users do, due to moderation. So by setting my cctech subscription to no moderation, cctech people would get my notices immediately. The downside of this, in hindsight, is that it looks REALLY squirrely to the cctech people. They get a string of my normal posts, and them some time later, possibly a day or so, when moderation occurs, they get all the other posts I make. Problem solved. I think what I'm going to do about this is change my personal cctech subscription back to requiring moderation. That way cctech people won't see the odd out of order behaviour. Then I'll create an additional "admin" subscription for myself that doesn't require moderation. I'll then try to remember to use that "admin" subscription to send out list notices and things will be more sane for cctech people. Regards, Jay West From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 3 12:50:30 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:50:30 -0600 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: ... > However the question about fixing .Z files still stands - I'm suprised > that given how long the format's been around, nobody ever published a > utility to attempt to fix corrupt files. ... There is a fundamental problem why it is not tractable in general. The whole point of a compressor is to get rid of the redundancy as much as possible (some of course are better than others with a given input file). It is exactly that redundancy that makes automated recovery possible. Disk recovery relies on the fact that everything is cross linked with everything else so you can fix up the broken sector chains etc. If you happen to have very specific knowledge about the failure mode and the lost/corrupted/inserted data is just a small amount it might be possible to have an automated aid to assist in recovering the data, but mostly everything downstream from the failure is going to be lost. Even though G4 compression is 2x as effective as G3 compression (on bilevel images), fax machines still use G3 because any error propagates to the end of the scan line whereas the same error in a G4 file can trash the image all the way to the end of the page. If the entire tape is compressed as a stream, then things are very bad indeed. If the tape image compresses each file individually, then it should be possible to skip for a while and find a good new starting point. From emu at ecubics.com Thu Mar 3 13:26:57 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:26:57 -0700 Subject: starmax 3000, starmax4000, accessories, denver area Message-ID: <42276501.8010400@ecubics.com> pickup only From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 14:00:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:00:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <44147.64.139.41.130.1109880010.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jim Battle wrote a good description of compression eliminating redundancy, and mentioned: > Even though G4 compression is 2x as effective as G3 compression (on > bilevel images), fax machines still use G3 because any error propagates > to the end of the scan line whereas the same error in a G4 file can > trash the image all the way to the end of the page. I'd point out that G4 compression was specifically designed for use over an error-corrected ISDN link, where that would not be a problem. In principle G4 compression would work fine on dialup if V.42 error control were used. But as you say, all commmon fax machines stick to G3. Eric From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Mar 3 14:16:46 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:16:46 -0500 Subject: TRAC; Two TI DS10 disk packs available In-Reply-To: <20050303101006.I648@localhost> References: <1109866497.6486.63.camel@abort.crash.com> <20050303101006.I648@localhost> Message-ID: <1109881006.6486.106.camel@abort.crash.com> > But won't Mooers sue him if the recoverer even looks at the > code?!! Calvin Mooers passed away in 1994, and the Foundation has made source code available for download. The TRAC 84 source code on that page is released under the LGPL, by the way. The site does mention his pioneering position on IP protections in the industry. Here's an exerpt from the relevant page of the website: "Calvin N. Mooers was one of the first people to advocate the use of existing laws to protect computer programming languages, and many people remember TRAC for the controversy surrounding Mooers' efforts. The following articles explain Mooers' position and that of some of his critics." (http://tracfoundation.org/mooers/law/law.htm) So, maybe some folks will see the release of TRAC 84 source under the LGPL as somewhat ironic in this context, I don't have the history on this... --Steve. From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 3 14:21:09 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:09 -0500 Subject: FS: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> <10503031255.ZM8181@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000901c5202e$8c9fe240$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> Experiencing some financial difficulties and could use some $ *soon*... Its got a: MITS CPU rev 1 board ( with newer 8080 chip) MITS 88-2 SIO rev 0 SEALS 8K static memory ??? Active Termination Board Missing the TOP Case Lid. Wiring is neat. The PS looks beefed up with a big fan mounted on the Back Panel. The ON/OFF and second AUX toggles are broken on the front panel but an ON/OFF toggle has been added to the back panel. Seems to be working. Pictures at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 3 14:26:04 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:26:04 -0500 Subject: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual Message-ID: <000f01c5202f$39ae4080$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> sorry... > > Seems to be working. Pictures at: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit02.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit03.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit04.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit05.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit06.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit07.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit08.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit09.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit10.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit11.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit12.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit13.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit14.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit15.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit16.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit17.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit18.jpg Best offer probably accepted by tomorrow.... Shipping from Brunswick , Ga 31520. Thanks for considering - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 3 14:28:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:28:43 -0500 Subject: FS: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual In-Reply-To: <000901c5202e$8c9fe240$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net> <10503031255.ZM8181@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050303152843.00939100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Mike, Are you selling MY Altair? Joe At 03:21 PM 3/3/05 -0500, you wrote: >Experiencing some financial difficulties and could use some $ *soon*... > >Its got a: > > MITS CPU rev 1 board ( with newer 8080 chip) > MITS 88-2 SIO rev 0 > SEALS 8K static memory > ??? Active Termination Board > >Missing the TOP Case Lid. Wiring is neat. The PS looks beefed up with a big >fan mounted on the Back Panel. The ON/OFF and second AUX toggles are broken >on the front panel but an ON/OFF toggle has been added to the back panel. > >Seems to be working. Pictures at: > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 14:40:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:40:21 -0600 Subject: no list traffic for cctech - culprit explained In-Reply-To: <004d01c5201e$ef931a30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004d01c5201e$ef931a30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42277635.9060801@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > > I think what I'm going to do about this is change my personal cctech Thanks for looking into this. I unsubbed from cctech and subbed to cctalk and now my problem is solved :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 3 14:44:13 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:44:13 -0500 Subject: FS: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050302153736.0285cb00@mail.netsync.net><10503031255.ZM8181@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20050303152843.00939100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <005001c52031$c2cf9ec0$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> Nope, MINE. ;) - Mike > Mike, > > Are you selling MY Altair? > > Joe > > > At 03:21 PM 3/3/05 -0500, you wrote: > >Experiencing some financial difficulties and could use some $ *soon*... > > > >Its got a: > > > > MITS CPU rev 1 board ( with newer 8080 chip) > > MITS 88-2 SIO rev 0 > > SEALS 8K static memory > > ??? Active Termination Board > > > >Missing the TOP Case Lid. Wiring is neat. The PS looks beefed up with a big > >fan mounted on the Back Panel. The ON/OFF and second AUX toggles are broken > >on the front panel but an ON/OFF toggle has been added to the back panel. > > > >Seems to be working. Pictures at: > > > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > >http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > > > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 3 14:49:51 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:49:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <200503031757.JAA19846@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at "Mar 3, 5 09:57:11 am" Message-ID: <200503032049.MAA14158@floodgap.com> > I'd love to get some information on the memory and I/O > mapping. It expects to use particular printers so it would > be nice to rewrite the driver to work well with my 3SI. I wonder if anyone has tried to write an emulator. The Cat is getting a lot more attention after Raskin's passing. How easily could the Cat run arbitrary applications? Or was it an editor, always an editor, all the time (with goodies), the Forth mode notwithstanding? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm a dyslexic amateur orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 3 14:50:01 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:50:01 -0500 Subject: DEC Documentation, RT11/RSX/VMS Denver area In-Reply-To: <422605F5.4040201@ecubics.com> References: <422605F5.4040201@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <42277879.3010606@compsys.to> >emanuel stiebler wrote: > Anybody likes to have it ? > Free, PICKUP ONLY Jerome Fine replies: While I am not interested in non-RT-11 documentation, I would VERY much appreciate knowing what might be available? DOC set? Layered products? If someone else has already replied, I am VERY pleased. Otherwise, I certainly don't want to hear that it was tossed! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 15:10:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 15:10:00 -0600 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <42277D28.2050402@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: >> However the question about fixing .Z files still stands - I'm suprised >> that given how long the format's been around, nobody ever published a >> utility to attempt to fix corrupt files. > > mostly everything downstream from the failure is going to be lost. > > If the entire tape is compressed as a stream, then things are very bad > indeed. If the tape image compresses each file individually, then it > should be possible to skip for a while and find a good new starting point. .Z is the output of compress, which doesn't inherently seperate data by blocks (if it did, you could decompress until bad data was found, then skip to the next block and start over). It does, however, support a complete flush and rebuild of the dictionary with code 257, so if you had bad data in a .Z file, you could attempt to skip over it by searching for the next 257 code, then start over. The drawback to this is, what if some of the mangled data inadvertently inserts a 257 code? :-) I don't have time to burn, so I won't code this for you, but anyone versed in LZW/LZ78 compression schemes and C could probably write a .Z file salvager (especially since the source code for compress is freely available). Any compressed format that compresses in a stream (ie where the data is not arbitrarily blocked or otherwise seperated) is going to have this problem -- anything corrupted will boffo the rest of the file after that point. Programs like pkzipfix, etc. simply rebuild the archive by skipping the file with the bad data. If you want real repairs, you need an archiver that generates parity information and tacks it onto the archive. WinRAR does this, as does WinRK and a few others. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 3 15:33:25 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:33:25 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <200503032049.MAA14158@floodgap.com> References: <200503032049.MAA14158@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9822a490fb1754757e4d06d0ff269196@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 3, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > How easily could the Cat run arbitrary applications? Or was it an > editor, always an editor, all the time (with goodies), the Forth mode > notwithstanding? > sounds to me like emacs is to lisp as cannon cat is to forth, at least to some extent. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 3 15:44:40 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <200503032144.NAA19959@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Cameron Kaiser" > >> I'd love to get some information on the memory and I/O >> mapping. It expects to use particular printers so it would >> be nice to rewrite the driver to work well with my 3SI. > >I wonder if anyone has tried to write an emulator. The Cat is getting a >lot more attention after Raskin's passing. > >How easily could the Cat run arbitrary applications? Or was it an >editor, always an editor, all the time (with goodies), the Forth mode >notwithstanding? > Hi Even in the Forth mode, it was still an editor. It is a little hard to describe from this sense. You could pick stuff with the select and then you execute it. It would be hard to create a software only emulator. The physical keyboard was as important as the software on this machine. Talking with Jeff, he said that several efforts have been made to get the keyboards on PC to work but there are just too many variations on how the keyboards are handled. It was left too much up to the builder of the machines. You really need low level access to key strokes and the layout is wrong as well. Dwight From g at kurico.com Thu Mar 3 16:08:48 2005 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:08:48 -0600 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <200503032049.MAA14158@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050303.BXC.66000000@192.168.1.207> Cameron Kaiser (spectre at floodgap.com) wrote: > How easily could the Cat run arbitrary applications? Or was it an > editor, always an editor, all the time (with goodies), the Forth mode > notwithstanding? You were in the editor all the time. Sort of like built in basic interp. in an C64, but without the capability to add carts, etc. To execute arb. forth, you highlight it in the editor and have it execute. George From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 3 16:10:20 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:10:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> However the question about fixing .Z files still stands - [...] > There is a fundamental problem why it is not tractable in general. > The whole point of a compressor is to get rid of the redundancy as > much as possible [...] Yes; to the extent that recovery from corrupted compressed data is possible, it means that the compression is less than ideal. However, most compression programs cannot take advantage of some of the redundancy available; as a simple example, if a text about heart disease suddenly starts talking about unusual stock market trading styles, something has gone wrong - but that is unlikely to be redunancy that a compressor can compress out. Indeed, few compressors are capable of even so much as taking advantage of a text being (say) almost entirely in English; corrupting the compressed form usually results not in valid but inappropriate English words but rather in non-words. That is the sort of redundancy that makes recovery possible. And compress (.Z) compression still leaves a lot of redundancy in the compressed data. What I sketched was basically taking advantage of that redundancy to deal with corrupted compressed data. For example, I took the second paragraph above ("Yes; to...non-words.") and compressed it to .Z, then changed a single 1 bit to a 0 (which I think cannot produce an invalid code, though I'd have to think more to be certain) and uncompressed it. Here's a diff between the original and the result: 1,2c1,2 < Yes; to the extent that recovery from corrupted compressed data is < possible, it means that the compression is deficient. However, most --- > Yes; to the extent that recovery from corruptedesompressededata is > possible, it means that theesompression is deficient. However, most 7c7 < compress out. Indeed, few compressors are capable of even so much as --- > compress out. Indeed, fewesompressors are capable of even so much as 9c9 < corrupting the compressed form usually results not in valid but --- > corrupting theesompressed form usually results not in validebut Obviously, there was redundancy lurking in the compressed form, and that redundancy is what my suggested recovery tactics leverage. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 4 16:48:20 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:48:20 +0100 Subject: Honeywell H316 - Friends, parts, papers and stories needed! Message-ID: <4228E5B4.6000603@hachti.de> Hello everybody, I own a Honeywell H316 computer and I am looking for other people who also own Honeywell x16 computers. At the moment I know only two other people with H316 computers, one of them with a working one and the other with a strange-behaving one... I also have some software for my machine: - FORTRAN IV + library (with source code) - DAP-16 assembler (with source code) - memory and cpu test programs etc. - some loaders (with source code) It would be interesting to get more software. A basic interpreter would be really great! I am also perfectly equipped for paper tape backup/copy and generation. I am further looking for peripherals, spares, cpu options, docs etc. Simply *everything* x16 related... Who is Will Jennings? It seems to be a bit complicated to contact him. He has posted an interesting message a few years ago. Saying that he had have saved a lot of H316 CPU stuff. Where is he? how to contact him?? There is also a small website where I document my H316 activities: http://h316.hachti.de With best regards, Philipp :-) From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 16:43:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual In-Reply-To: <000f01c5202f$39ae4080$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Mike wrote: > > Seems to be working. Pictures at: > > > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit02.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit03.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit04.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit05.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit06.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit07.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit08.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit09.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit10.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit11.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit12.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit13.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit14.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit15.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit16.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit17.jpg > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit18.jpg > > Best offer probably accepted by tomorrow.... Shipping from Brunswick , Ga > 31520. Not related to Mike's sale, but if anyone here ends up buying this I can probably supply a top cover (for a price ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 16:47:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <200503032144.NAA19959@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > It would be hard to create a software only emulator. > The physical keyboard was as important as the software > on this machine. Talking with Jeff, he said that > several efforts have been made to get the keyboards on > PC to work but there are just too many variations on > how the keyboards are handled. It was left too much up to > the builder of the machines. You really need low level > access to key strokes and the layout is wrong as well. Along with a Canon Cat, I've got an Apple //e with the SwyftCard (basically the Canon Cat's firmware on a card that turns an Apple //e into a Cat of sorts). The keyboard has Cat labels on the individual keys to "re-map" them to the Cat functions: http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Apple%20IIe.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Card.jpg -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 16:55:26 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:55:26 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony Message-ID: I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig is un assigned. BUT...no mater what I do when it boots it has Sony Vio logos and if I look at the directorys I find a bunch of crap that was left over from the days when it was running a Sony derivitave of Win ME. Lots of ISP advertisements desquised as optional ways to connect to the internet. (I use a Sprint cell phone and Sprint software to connect to the internet and dont need ANY ISP or phone line methods of connection and would love to get some more space by deleting them. I cannot delete the directorys because they are protected. If I could just erase the unused directorys I would be happy but also just cleaning the whole thing off and installing XP would be fine to since there is nothing on that drive that I need. I cannot delete IE and that takes up a bunch of room. I use Netscape and IE is an abomination I need to be rid of. I want to clean that damned thing completely off and reinstall XP. The version of XP that I have is the Home edition UPGRADE. I dont know what I need to put on there first to get the upgrade to work but I have ME Upgrade and WIn 98 and WIn 3.1. Usually just starting from 3.1 and upgrading step by step works but I cant get this damned Sony crap off the HD and it takes up over 2 gb of HD space. Any help would be appreciated, even if it is to tell me that Sony fixed it so their crap must stay, at least then I would quit trying to recover the lost space. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From hachti at hachti.de Fri Mar 4 17:01:13 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:01:13 +0100 Subject: List subscribtion Message-ID: <4228E8B9.5090607@hachti.de> Does anybody know why my list subscribtion has been cancelled? I wasn't receiving any messages since February 26. Now I have subscribed again. But I don't know what happened..... Philipp From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 3 17:10:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:10:12 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:55:26 -0600 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and > 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I > unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) > Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig > is un assigned. > > BUT...no mater what I do when it boots it has Sony Vio logos and if I > look at the directorys I find a bunch of crap that was left over from > the days when it was running a Sony derivitave of Win ME. Lots of ISP > advertisements desquised as optional ways to connect to the internet. > (I use a Sprint cell phone and Sprint software to connect to the > internet and dont need ANY ISP or phone line methods of connection and > would love to get some more space by deleting them. I cannot delete > the directorys because they are protected. If I could just erase the > unused directorys I would be happy but also just cleaning the whole > thing off and installing XP would be fine to since there is nothing on > that drive that I need. I cannot delete IE and that takes up a bunch > of room. I use Netscape and IE is an abomination I need to be rid of. > > I want to clean that damned thing completely off and reinstall XP. > The version of XP that I have is the Home edition UPGRADE. > > I dont know what I need to put on there first to get the upgrade to > work but I have ME Upgrade and WIn 98 and WIn 3.1. Usually just > starting from 3.1 and upgrading step by step works but I cant get this > damned Sony crap off the HD and it takes up over 2 gb of HD space. > > Any help would be appreciated, even if it is to tell me that Sony > fixed it so their crap must stay, at least then I would quit trying to > recover the lost space. > -- I would try 'clobbering' the hard drive entirely by installing NetBSD or a Linux OS on the machine. Tell it to 'take the whole drive' and it'll probably clobber that Microsoft stuff rigorously. Then, at your option, you can install XP on it (wince). You'll probably have to install the Windows 98 to get the 'Upgrade' to work. But now I am talking about icky things. Why not install something on-topic? It might be a nice Minix machine. Or 386BSD is old enough now. From tponsford at theriver.com Fri Mar 4 17:03:31 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:03:31 -0700 Subject: Free stuff. Message-ID: <4228E943.4070803@theriver.com> Hi All The Last UA auction, I picked up about 9-10 old IBMXT/and clones upgraded 5150 ?. I don't collect any 8088 machines, I simply wanted these for the MFM drives/cables. Most of the machines had been lying around for ages in somebody's dusty wherehouse and some were missing power supplies, etc, so I made no attempt to resucitate any of them before canabalizing. After taking them apart. I have all these parts for the taking. Just pay the postage. I would prefer someone to take the whole lot. Any items left unclaimed goes to the dump. I can check any of the cards or boards for certain chips or info If you need me to. So here is what I have: 8088 MB's 64K/128K rom, 8088-fujitsu '81 8087-2 intel '80 8 isa slots 64k/128k rom 8088-2-fujitsu '81 vacant 8087 socket 8 isa slots 64K-256K 8088 -intel '78 '81 8087 -intel '80 '81 5 isa slots 64K-256K D8088D -NEC vacant 8087 socket 5 isa slots 64K-256K 8088 -intel '78 '83 vacant 8087 socket 5 isa slots UNKNOWN 128k ?? sab8088 -SIEMENS '86 8087-2 iNTEL '84 8 ISA SLOTS (appears to be missing some mem chips. ie.empty sockets) 80286 MB's 256K/512K system board CG80286-6 C cpu C80827-3 intel co-p 6 EISA/2 ISA slots PC/XT cards Full Length (13") [2] AST Six Pak Plus DATA Translation Inc io card (50 pin) [2] Black and white/Parallel Card TIC mono/Parallel card AST MegaPlusII Hercules Mono/Parallel card Color Graphics card/no name/ has IBM chips 9pin and RCA jack WD Floppy and MFM HDD controller (EISA ?) IBM #62X1133 Serial/Parrallel Card?? Has 2 banks of 6- 30 pin simms (high Byte on right and Low byte on the left) Fixed Disk (MFM) /Floppy disk controller (EISA) TECMAR Graphics Master video card 9pin and RCA jack w/toggle switch Serial Parralel Card ? JRAM-3 Tall Tree Systems has a oscillator chip and a Mostek 8507 chip and appears (I can barely read it...JLASER-1 Tall Tree Systems 1/2 Length (9") [3] Floppy Controller 16.0MHZ oscillator and NEC D765AC [3] Floppy/Serial Controller/Game controller HAve 3.5 v 350mah battery MFM HDD/Floppy Controller EISA WD 1988 Mid length (7") Modul r Circuit Tech MCT HDC MFM/Floppy Controller Short Cards 5/12-6 inches WD Floppy /MFM HDD controller [4] Serial Parrallel Controller [3] Serial Parallel Controller I/O card V 2.0 Winbond Chip GP1B Card Ethernet t-base 10 50Pin i/o card Cheers Tom From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 17:12:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:12:13 -0600 Subject: List subscribtion References: <4228E8B9.5090607@hachti.de> Message-ID: <007c01c52046$71eb4210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Phillip wrote... > Does anybody know why my list subscribtion has been cancelled? > I wasn't receiving any messages since February 26. Now I have subscribed > again. But I don't know what happened..... More than likely you were automatically unsubscribed if your mail server was consistently unreachable. The algorithm that mailman uses isn't quite this cut and dry, but if the list tries to send you posts and 6 of them bounce back as undeliverable, you get unsubbed by the software automatically. Many people don't realize when this happens. Your mailbox may be full on the server, you miss some, then you check your mail clearing it out and more comes in, etc. Let me know if it happens again and I'll investigate it further for you. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 17:37:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:37:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and > 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I > unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) > Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig > is un assigned. This is not a PC support list. You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 3 17:59:15 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:59:15 GMT Subject: Reply-To: behavior was Re: imaging DC600A QIC tapes In-Reply-To: Tom Jennings "Reply-To: behavior was Re: imaging DC600A QIC tapes" (Mar 3, 10:03) References: <1109792002.12633.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030355.WAA15847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503031309.ZM8204@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050303095948.L648@localhost> Message-ID: <10503032359.ZM9389@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 3 2005, 10:03, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 2 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Probably because Jules' mailer is inserting an unecessary "Reply-to:" > > header (pointless, since it's supposed to be used only when you want > > replies to go to somewhere other than the "From:"), and then mailman is > > applying the principle of "least modification" and *appending* the > > classiccmp address, rather than replacing the one Jules' mailer put in. > > > > I've noticed this with posts from one or two other listmembers. > > I think Jay's right -- mailman may have changed, but it's not > necessarily incorrect. There are few subtleties involving > To:/Reply-To: processing but it's one of those things a lot of > MUAs make configurable. Pine's "reply-always-uses-reply-to" in > feature-list, for example. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with mailman -- in fact, applying "least modification" is The Right Thing. You are only allowed one "Reply-to:" line per message, and mailman is quite properly not discarding existing information. I just don't think any MUA should create a "Reply-to:" if it's the same as the "From:" or "Sender:". As for Pine using "Reply-to:" for replies, that's what the RFCs say you *should* do if a "Reply-to:" is present; it's purpose is purely to override the "From:" when replying. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 18:07:34 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:07:34 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, this is NOT a PC support list, it is a general list for computer talk which is what my post is. If you need to be "on topic" go to the cctech list. On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:37:43 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and > > 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I > > unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) > > Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig > > is un assigned. > > This is not a PC support list. > > You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 18:09:25 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:09:25 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:10:12 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:55:26 -0600 > "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > > I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and > > 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I > > unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) > > Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig > > is un assigned. > > > > BUT...no mater what I do when it boots it has Sony Vio logos and if I > > look at the directorys I find a bunch of crap that was left over from > > the days when it was running a Sony derivitave of Win ME. Lots of ISP > > advertisements desquised as optional ways to connect to the internet. > > (I use a Sprint cell phone and Sprint software to connect to the > > internet and dont need ANY ISP or phone line methods of connection and > > would love to get some more space by deleting them. I cannot delete > > the directorys because they are protected. If I could just erase the > > unused directorys I would be happy but also just cleaning the whole > > thing off and installing XP would be fine to since there is nothing on > > that drive that I need. I cannot delete IE and that takes up a bunch > > of room. I use Netscape and IE is an abomination I need to be rid of. > > > > I want to clean that damned thing completely off and reinstall XP. > > The version of XP that I have is the Home edition UPGRADE. > > > > I dont know what I need to put on there first to get the upgrade to > > work but I have ME Upgrade and WIn 98 and WIn 3.1. Usually just > > starting from 3.1 and upgrading step by step works but I cant get this > > damned Sony crap off the HD and it takes up over 2 gb of HD space. > > > > Any help would be appreciated, even if it is to tell me that Sony > > fixed it so their crap must stay, at least then I would quit trying to > > recover the lost space. > > -- > > I would try 'clobbering' the hard drive entirely by installing NetBSD or > a Linux OS on the machine. Tell it to 'take the whole drive' and it'll > probably clobber that Microsoft stuff rigorously. > > Then, at your option, you can install XP on it (wince). > > You'll probably have to install the Windows 98 to get the 'Upgrade' to > work. > > But now I am talking about icky things. > > Why not install something on-topic? It might be a nice Minix machine. > Or 386BSD is old enough now. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 18:24:19 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:24:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <34555.64.139.41.130.1109895859.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jim wrote: > Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with > Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not > support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS As far as the suggestion to use Linux or xBSD just to erase the disk before reinstally Windows, it's even easier to do that is with a boot floppy or CD designed for that specific purpose, Darik's Boot and Nuke: http://dban.sourceforge.net/ Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 17:18:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:18:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <16934.26592.562000.521442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Mar 2, 5 08:26:56 pm Message-ID: > Tony> I will take a look. I'd like to make a camera one day, even > Tony> though I've got plenty of commercial ones around (much as I > Tony> like making computers, even though I've got plenty of those > Tony> too). > > If you're into classic stuff, Lindsay Books is an amazing resource. Oh, I know of Lindsay Books. In England, there's a company called 'Camden Miniature Steam Services' who sell all sorts of interesting books, mostly on steam engines and railways (not a great interest of mine), but enough books on real radio, electical stuff, horology, general engineering, etc that I've spent a small fortune with them over the years. They sell many, but not all, of the Lindsay books. FWIW, I have nothing but praise for the service I've received from Camden's. In all my orders they've made just one mistake (2 books with exactly the same title. they sent the wrong one). And they put it right with no fuss. I am not sure how many of these are actually Lindsay books, but I've bought reprints of books on short-wave radio from the 1930s, books on making electric clocks, telescopes, cameras, etc. Books of general workshop hints and tips (and to be honest, if I use just one of the tips from such a book I've probably recovered the cost). Books on lathe operation. And many more.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 17:20:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:20:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <42266A7B.2010407@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 2, 5 06:38:03 pm Message-ID: > Well I'mm looking at that set of books now ... They keep going and going > and going... > I was thinking the book "Plastic injection molding machine" might be > useful for duplicating > small parts like switch handles or other plastic parts. If it's the one I'm thinking of (and bought from Camden's), it's a Dave Gingery book. It's fairly simple, and I am sure it would work (I intend to make it sometime), but a comment in a UK model engineering magazine was that, yes, it certainly works, but the 'fun' is making the moulds. And yes, I want it to make keycaps (no, I am not thinking of dual-shot moulding), switch levers, etc. -tony From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 18:26:50 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:26:50 +0000 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6405030316262821accb@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:55:26 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I have a Sony Vio laptop and it has one partition on it, one 4 gig and > 1 gig of unassigned space. (was assigned as drive "D" but I > unassigned it thinking I could add it to "C"...of course, I couldnt) > Windows XP is installed on the 4 gig partition and the remaining 1 gig > is un assigned. > > BUT...no mater what I do when it boots it has Sony Vio logos and if I > look at the directorys I find a bunch of crap that was left over from > the days when it was running a Sony derivitave of Win ME. Lots of ISP > advertisements desquised as optional ways to connect to the internet. > (I use a Sprint cell phone and Sprint software to connect to the > internet and dont need ANY ISP or phone line methods of connection and > would love to get some more space by deleting them. I cannot delete > the directorys because they are protected. If I could just erase the > unused directorys I would be happy but also just cleaning the whole > thing off and installing XP would be fine to since there is nothing on > that drive that I need. I cannot delete IE and that takes up a bunch > of room. I use Netscape and IE is an abomination I need to be rid of. > > I want to clean that damned thing completely off and reinstall XP. > The version of XP that I have is the Home edition UPGRADE. > > I dont know what I need to put on there first to get the upgrade to > work but I have ME Upgrade and WIn 98 and WIn 3.1. Usually just > starting from 3.1 and upgrading step by step works but I cant get this > damned Sony crap off the HD and it takes up over 2 gb of HD space. > > Any help would be appreciated, even if it is to tell me that Sony > fixed it so their crap must stay, at least then I would quit trying to > recover the lost space. > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > UltraVan #257 > CAL - 27 #221 > I would suggest booting with knoppix and then deleting the extra partition (write down the details). If XP will still boot and doesn't complain. Use partition magic or similiar to expand the main partition. If it doesn't work. Then delete all partitions and boot from the home edition cd. It should ask during the upgrade for a valid install cd to be put in. ME or 98 will do for that. nb. I would check the sony website for the latest drivers for everything and burn them to a cd. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 17:34:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:34:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <02b601c51fb8$00933ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 3, 5 00:12:38 am Message-ID: > > Tony wrote... > > Ah, but your memory is core, right? In which case, a 'read' is actually a > > write followed by a restore. Since you can read the same location and > > keep on getting the same data from it (you can do that, right?), the > > memory is basically working (for both read and write). > Correct, I'm aware core does the write after read. I'm suspecting unibus > trouble but see below... > > > You could try writing to something else (perhaps the data register on > > your conosle termial card) to see if you can write to anything on the > > Unibus. Or if you have a logic probe, you could see if the data lines > > pulse low when you try writing 1's to a memory location. > I'll have to figure out what address my console card is. I'll see if there's > any docs on bitsavers for the M7800. If I'm reading some of the paperwork Might be listed as DL11-A through DL11-E. > correctly, whatever memory address the card is set for corresponds to a real > core location and I'd just read/write to that specific address (DEC has a > rather odd definition of the word "register" to me) to see if the problem > changes. However, if I have a unibus problem, isn't the M7800 which is in an > SPC slot still going across the unibus? I haven't had my logic probe out in Yes, exactly. My idea was to see if you could write to anything on the Unibus. If you can't, then the problem is probably in the processor. If you can, then the problem is probably in the memory. > years... I thought it blipped on pulse high not pulse low. Surely that's > settable. I'll check :) More germane info below... It doesn't matter. The data line is normally high, when you write a 1, the processor brings it low, and then lets it go high again at the end of the cycle. If your probe detects the rising edge, it'll still show something changing (which is what you care about here). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 17:57:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:57:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 3, 5 11:21:32 am Message-ID: > > Anyone have an Amiga Mouse (for use on a 4000T) for sale? It doesn't need > to be pretty, but it does need to work. I checked ePay, but most are in > Brittania where shipping would be a bear, and the few that remains are > "parts" or bundles... Unforch, I'm in a bit of a hurry for this - it rides > on getting the rest of the 4000T (which the owners have ever-so-quickly > gotten in a big hurry to get rid of, but need to remove personal data > first, and don't have the keyboard or mouse! :-/ ) I just got an Amiga > keyboard on ePay, but alas, no easy mice... (not even the Atari/Amiga > switchable ones... :-( ) Do you have any quadrature mice at all? (Atari ST, Original Mac, old PC 'bus mouse', Achimedes. etc). If so, it should just be a matter of wiring up a cable adapter. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 18:28:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:28:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > No, this is NOT a PC support list, it is a general list for computer > talk which is what my post is. If you need to be "on topic" go to the > cctech list. Jim, I do believe we already covered this with you a couple months ago (and if I'm mistaken I apologize). I wish I didn't have to bring this up, YET AGAIN, but apparently some people just don't get it. It's acceptable when the conversation strays from an ON-TOPIC thread (as long as it doesn't linger for long, but they always do, ), but to start an entirely OFF-TOPIC thread, as you did, is totally inappropriate and inconsiderate to the rest of us here. Have some courtesy. In the VERY least, put an OT: prefix on your message subject, and in this case, if you're at all honest, you might also include, "I'm too lazy to go looking for this information in the bazillions of websites and books available on the topic". P.S. Fix your reply-to configuration. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:35:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:35:03 -0600 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4227AD37.20804@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > And compress (.Z) compression still leaves a lot of redundancy in the > compressed data. Actually, it doesn't -- you can't compress a .Z very well. What I think you're getting at is that, since the source data has a lot of redundancy *and* is human parsable, it can be reconstructed more easily in the case of mangled data. >>Yes; to the extent that recovery from corruptedesompressededata is >>possible, it means that theesompression is deficient. However, most You changed only one bit, which changed one code into another. This is a reversable transform. I would suggest REMOVING one bit -- it is still a single-bit error, but you will see the entire file become corrupt all the way down the line. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From elf at ucsd.edu Thu Mar 3 18:37:36 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric Flanzbaum) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:37:36 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303162601.022468e0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Ron Hudson wrote: > sounds to me like emacs is to lisp as cannon cat is > to forth, at least to some extent. It does have that ring to it, huh? Given what others have posted in this thread about the Cat, I'm under the impression it is basically a editing machine (with some fancy features built-in), along with a back door into Forth. Almost a glorified word processor, if you will. Was there much (if any) 3rd party software developed for it -- which expanded beyond its native capabilities? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Mar 3 18:37:21 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:37:21 +0100 Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <422638F8.6030003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050302111443.M2930@localhost> <422638F8.6030003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1109896642.20910.19.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 15:06 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Spacewar on the real Type 30 display with long persistence phosphor > >> is a thing of beauty! > > Congratulations! > Same here. Now we all need a nice photo of it action. > Ben alias woodelf That's just amazing... congratulations! I'll come someday. Again, congratulations, and keep up the excellent work!! If I had half the skills you guys have, the PDP-7 would be calculating primes by now :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 3 18:38:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:38:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony Message-ID: <200503040038.QAA20030@clulw009.amd.com> You seemed to have left out a few words so I thought I might help a little. >From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > >No, this is NOT a PC support list, it is a general list for computer ^ classic >talk which is what my post is. If you need to be "on topic" go to the ^ not >cctech list. > > Hi This is an un-moderated "clasic computer" list that tolerates some off topic post. Also, it is self regulating in that many off topic post may be flamed. Members should refain from posting replies to post that, if allowed to continue, damage the list in general. Even when they know the answer. I'll admit that I've not always been able to stop myself but many times I have. What to do with Windows XP is way outside of topics covered under clasic computers. The worst of it is that this list most likely has only a small percentage that are up on dealing with XP. Most just use it only when needed and for nothing else. We are not trying to turn you off towards the list but help you realize that there are better places to handle your particular problem. Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:38:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:38:32 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4227AE08.5090103@oldskool.org> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I want to clean that damned thing completely off and reinstall XP. > The version of XP that I have is the Home edition UPGRADE. These two statements would usually be mutually exclusive (you need a previous system to upgrade). However, you should be able to do the following: 1. Wipe the entire drive completely clean; google for utils to do this, or boot DOS 6.22 or later with fdisk off of a floppy. 2. Boot off of the XP install CD. 3. When it looks for a previous version and can't find one, it will prompt you for a prior version's CD. Find your ME/2000/whatever CD and stick it in. 4. After verification, it will continue. Voila, you've installed an "upgrade" without needing the previous OS installed. I have done this many times with an XP Professional Upgrade and my prior copy of Windows 2000. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:39:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:39:30 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4227AE42.10901@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Why not install something on-topic? It might be a nice Minix machine. > Or 386BSD is old enough now. Or Coherent! (Just kidding -- Coherent can't recognize IDE drives over 540MB) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:40:10 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:40:10 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4227AE6A.1010208@oldskool.org> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with > Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not > support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS Are you sure? Try an extremely recent distribution; there has been progress on supporting "winmodems" in the last year. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:42:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:42:08 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This is not a PC support list. > > You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 That was a bit harsh, considering this is the cctalk list and not the cctech list. Besides, his laptop is 4-5 years old if it only has a 5GB drive, so that's getting closer to on-topic, yes? Just because we use old computers every day doesn't mean we ONLY use old computers every day... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:43:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:43:23 -0600 Subject: List subscribtion In-Reply-To: <4228E8B9.5090607@hachti.de> References: <4228E8B9.5090607@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4227AF2B.1030601@oldskool.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Does anybody know why my list subscribtion has been cancelled? > I wasn't receiving any messages since February 26. Now I have subscribed > again. But I don't know what happened..... It happened to me too when the new server was put in place (my cctalk subscription magically turned into a cctech subscription). I just unsubbed from one and subbed another -- problem solved. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 18:44:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:44:19 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4227AF63.9070005@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > In the VERY least, put an OT: prefix on your message subject, and in this What, "Installing XP on Sony" wasn't blatantly off-topic to begin with? ;-D -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 3 18:49:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:49:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303162601.022468e0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Eric Flanzbaum wrote: > Given what others have posted in this thread about the Cat, I'm under the > impression it is basically a editing machine (with some fancy features > built-in), along with a back door into Forth. Almost a glorified word > processor, if you will. > > Was there much (if any) 3rd party software developed for it -- which > expanded beyond its native capabilities? It wasn't around long enough to develop its own "microverse". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 3 19:00:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:00:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <1109896642.20910.19.camel@fortran> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050302111443.M2930@localhost> <422638F8.6030003@jetnet.ab.ca> <1109896642.20910.19.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <36395.64.139.41.130.1109898051.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tore replied to my message about the PDP-1 finally running Spacewar successfully: > I'll come someday. Again, congratulations, and keep up the excellent > work!! If I had half the skills you guys have, the PDP-7 would be > calculating primes by now :) Although I don't want to downplay the skills of any of the team members, the main thing that was required was a lot of hours of volunteer effort. I'm not sure of the current total but I think it's well over 1000 volunteer-hours. If you had that much time available you'd probably have the PDP-7 working. Eric From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 19:05:16 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:05:16 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I just DONT get it. I subed to this list because I was told that to just talk computers in general I should sub to this list. I guess that is not so. I was told that the cctech list was for those with severe anal retention and the desire to have everything spelled perfectly etc.... And that this list was for general discussion of all computer related subjects. Apparently that was incorrect information. Everyone is anal retentive on BOTH lists. Just unsubscribe me as I can see no useful purpose to this list. Just what the hell do you talk about anyway....no, don't answer that, I have no use for the answer. On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:28:29 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > No, this is NOT a PC support list, it is a general list for computer > > talk which is what my post is. If you need to be "on topic" go to the > > cctech list. > > Jim, > > I do believe we already covered this with you a couple months ago (and if > I'm mistaken I apologize). I wish I didn't have to bring this up, YET > AGAIN, but apparently some people just don't get it. > > It's acceptable when the conversation strays from an ON-TOPIC thread (as > long as it doesn't linger for long, but they always do, ), but > to start an entirely OFF-TOPIC thread, as you did, is totally > inappropriate and inconsiderate to the rest of us here. Have some > courtesy. > > In the VERY least, put an OT: prefix on your message subject, and in this > case, if you're at all honest, you might also include, "I'm too lazy to go > looking for this information in the bazillions of websites and books > available on the topic". > > P.S. Fix your reply-to configuration. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 3 18:55:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:55:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <4227AD37.20804@oldskool.org> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4227AD37.20804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200503040121.UAA01859@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> And compress (.Z) compression still leaves a lot of redundancy in >> the compressed data. > Actually, it doesn't -- you can't compress a .Z very well. Sure it does. It's just not in a form very usable by most compression programs. As a simple example, if the high bit of a compressed codon is 1, the next bit is significantly more likely to be 0 than 1 - at least until the table fills up. For a more complex example, consider the Shannon estimate of one bit per letter for normal connected English text. At one bit per character, the first five lines of this paragraph weigh in at 352 bits, plus a type tag meaning "English text", which should fit within 32 bits; compress(1) output for that input is well over two thousand bits - that's still over 75% redundant. That's a rather small sample, and LZW works better on long texts. I happen to have the King James bible online, and tried the same thing with Genesis. The version I have is 214518 characters; if we accept the Shannon estimate, there are 214518 bits of information there. compress(1) output is 76583 bytes, or 612664 bits, or about 65% redundant. Even if you think Shannon was wrong by a factor of two (unlikely, IMO), 30% of the compress output is redundancy. (By way of comparison, gzip?--best gave 62540 bytes, about 57% redundant; bzip2?-9, 48392 bytes, 44+% redundant.) The trouble is, a lot of that redundancy takes the form of things like the rules of English grammar, facts like "`theesompression' is not an English word", properties like the use of the biblical register (instead of, say, the scientific grant proposal register), which compression programs are not good enough to be able to take advantage of - but a human, driving a good human's-helper program, can. > What I think you're getting at is that, since the source data has a > lot of redundancy *and* is human parsable, it can be reconstructed > more easily in the case of mangled data. Well, yeah; "is human parsable" is a form of redundancy, but one that is almost impossible for programs to take advantage of - certainly impossible for current programs. That's (part of) why my suggestions for recovering from a damaged .Z file keep a human in the loop - to leverage the human ability to detect bogus decompressions based on redundancy programs have trouble using. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 3 19:22:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <200503040122.RAA20041@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Flanzbaum" > ---snip--- >Given what others have posted in this thread about the Cat, I'm under the >impression it is basically a editing machine (with some fancy features >built-in), along with a back door into Forth. Almost a glorified word >processor, if you will. > >Was there much (if any) 3rd party software developed for it -- which >expanded beyond its native capabilities? > > Hi Not that I know of but there are others that might have more information on this. From my playing with it, you can not directly execute code from the disk. Even to run Forth, you have to select the code from the screen before it will execute. This isn't hard to do but not the same as running a program on the disk. There might have been some way to do it but the Cat only seems to use the disk for text storage. Once in Forth, I believe one can take over the machine and treat it like a normal processor. I'm sure there must be a trap-door in there someplace to load code from disk but I've not explored what can be done from Forth, other than, when I first got it, to look through the memory to determine where the ROM images were. I do know one of the fellows that wrote code for it and I've been meaning to pick his brain some time. For the curious, it is a great machine. There is so much in there to explore. and even a way to do it ( Forth is like a super monitor ). Dwight From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 19:23:45 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:23:45 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AE6A.1010208@oldskool.org> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4227AE6A.1010208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:40:10 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with > > Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not > > support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS > > Are you sure? Try an extremely recent distribution; there has been progress on > supporting "winmodems" in the last year. Good luck getting *XP* to run on a Vaio. 80% of what's in there requires a proprietary driver that will not, of course, come with your Windows XP disk, and may not be available at all without the original restore CD. I -completely- recommend mirroring that extra partition somewhere, until you have a known good XP install. Vaio's are a symptom of what is wrong with the PC world. Proprietary this, non-standard that, oddly-shaped the other. If you want to call it a PC, make it compatible. If not, call it something else. But, as someone said, "That's the nice thing about standards; there's so many to choose from!" -dhbarr. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 19:25:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:25:18 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > That was a bit harsh, considering this is the cctalk list and not the > cctech list. The post was pretty far off-topic. This is cctalk, but playstation tech support is pretty far off. Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 3 19:25:49 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:25:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200503040126.UAA01933@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Just because we use old computers every day doesn't mean we ONLY use > old computers every day... True - but that fact doesn't make the other ones any more appropriate for discussion here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 19:34:04 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:34:04 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: The laptop is almost 10 years old! On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:42:08 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This is not a PC support list. > > > > You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 > > That was a bit harsh, considering this is the cctalk list and not the cctech > list. Besides, his laptop is 4-5 years old if it only has a 5GB drive, so > that's getting closer to on-topic, yes? > > Just because we use old computers every day doesn't mean we ONLY use old > computers every day... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 3 20:00:58 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 18:00:58 -0800 Subject: PDP-1 project milestone In-Reply-To: <36395.64.139.41.130.1109898051.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <32816.64.169.63.74.1109746438.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <1109896642.20910.19.camel@fortran> <36395.64.139.41.130.1109898051.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <200503031800.58822.lbickley@bickleywest.com> We should have the actual number of hour when the CHM issues their "volunteer" hour awards. But my guess is: 3-3.5 hours per person (6-7) per week for one year is about 1,250 hours - and the project has been active for over a year! I also think there is a lot of serendipity that occurs when you have a group of folks who have varied skill sets in restoration working as a team. I'm confident that none of the individual team members could have made the progress that we made as a team - even if that individual dedicated the full 1,250 man hours to the project. (And we all think we are GOOD ;-) Lyle On Thursday 03 March 2005 17:00, Eric Smith wrote: > Tore replied to my message about the PDP-1 finally running > > Spacewar successfully: > > I'll come someday. Again, congratulations, and keep up the excellent > > work!! If I had half the skills you guys have, the PDP-7 would be > > calculating primes by now :) > > Although I don't want to downplay the skills of any of the team > members, the main thing that was required was a lot of hours of > volunteer effort. I'm not sure of the current total but I think it's > well over 1000 volunteer-hours. If you had that much time available > you'd probably have the PDP-7 working. > > Eric -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 3 20:20:25 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:20:25 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007301c52060$ba94f280$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I would have had no trouble with this {original} post if the Subject line had simply been marked [OT]. FYI John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Isbell, W5JAI To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Re installing XP on Sony The laptop is almost 10 years old! On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:42:08 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This is not a PC support list. > > > > You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 > > That was a bit harsh, considering this is the cctalk list and not the cctech > list. Besides, his laptop is 4-5 years old if it only has a 5GB drive, so > that's getting closer to on-topic, yes? > > Just because we use old computers every day doesn't mean we ONLY use old > computers every day... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From owad at applefritter.com Thu Mar 3 21:14:40 2005 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:14:40 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apple I article In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050301163617.009ce310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20050301163617.009ce310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Joe R. wrote: > At 01:22 PM 3/1/05 -0800, Sellam wrote: >> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Peters wrote: >>> The Woz himself wrote the Forward to the book. >>> >> And Tom is a member of our little group here ;) > > Doesn't that mean that we all get a free copy? :-) If there's interest, we could do a random drawing or something similar and give away a couple copies. Here's my own description of the book , which goes into a bit more detail than you'll find most places. The included schematic and pcb software, btw, is _very_ nice. Tom -- Apple I Replica Creation: Back to the Garage By Tom Owad, Foreword by Steve Wozniak From rcini at optonline.net Thu Mar 3 21:16:36 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:16:36 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. IIRC, the song was "Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Does anyone (1) have this program in source and/or binary and (2) can someone make a high-quality WAV file of it for me (since I don't have an Altair)? I figure I could take some liberties within the emulator code to checksum/MD5 hash code loaded into the emulation space and if the music binary is loaded, it'll set a flag which when RUN is toggled, the WAV would play. Wadda 'ya think? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Mar 3 21:31:12 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:31:12 -0500 Subject: Ottawa collectors in the news Message-ID: <20050304033112.PWAP25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> In case anyone is interested: CJOH news in Ottawa is running a segment on local collectors of classic computers. The camera crew was here this afternoon, and they visited Mike K's on sunday. It will air as a segment on the "Tech Now" section of this Sunday 6:00pm newscast (March 6). Local Ottawans can tune CJOH directly, anyone with ExpressVu (Canadian satellite) should be able to get it on channel 196 at the above date/time. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 21:40:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:40:44 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, found the jumpers for the DL11 in the schematics section on bitsavers. I have two M7800's, one is set for 777560 and one is set for 776500. I'm assuming that when a card is jumpered so (the high bits are constant anyways), that it appears exactly at that address no matter how much memory is installed in the machine (ie. it doesn't move around based on maxmem). Anytime I exam 777560 I get an address error. If I exam 776500, I get a 200, but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all zero's in the data register. Methinks the problem wasn't memory, but something amiss in the cpu section. Bummer as I have no spare cpu cards. But I guess at this point I still don't know if it's a unibus problem or a cpu problem. Something else I noticed is the terminator cards in front and back as well as the cpu backplan to MF11-L had what I would think is a lot of "up down wiggle" in them. I'm quite sure they are seated completely, but I can turn them up or down more than I would think one should be able to. Is that common? Hopefully sage listemembers can offer some advice as to where to go next :) Jay West From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Mar 3 21:49:26 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:49:26 -0500 Subject: VC8/I Point Plot Controller Message-ID: <4227DAC6.5070203@nktelco.net> I have been playing around with a collection of old Flip Chips that I have and put together a VC8/I compatible scope controller for my PDP8/e. You can find a page about it here http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/ The only reason this was possible was because I had two 10-bit D/A converters (A618), the rest of the modules are pretty common. Thanks to David Gesswein for some test programs. -chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Mar 3 22:06:21 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:06:21 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <4227DEBD.8060002@pacbell.net> Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I > remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold > an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. IIRC, the song was > "Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. > > Does anyone (1) have this program in source and/or binary and (2) > can someone make a high-quality WAV file of it for me (since I don't have an > Altair)? This isn't a direct answer, but just the same ... I recorded the sounds coming from an AM radio near my Sol while the game TARG was playing. TARG's instructions also suggest doing this trick. It is no coincidence since the author of TARG is the same guy who did the trick at the now legendary meeting of the homebrew meeting -- steve dompier (I know, others did it decades before him on even older machines). You can listen to it yourself: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/targ_am.mp3 http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/targ_am.wav (the two are the same sounds, just in different formats) From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 22:08:51 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:08:51 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? Message-ID: There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to create a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other than to design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we grab the VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them into an FPGA compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 750 with gate array, and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 scheme might be the easiest to implement with an FPGA. So, does anybody have the 730, 750 or 780 schematics? No, I do not plan to start the project. I just want to make sure whether it is feasible. Thank you. vax, 9000 From brain at jbrain.com Thu Mar 3 22:02:59 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:02:59 -0600 Subject: Not sure who all is near York University Message-ID: <4227DDF3.2000505@jbrain.com> But if you do: If you have the time and interest to wander out to York U on a Friday morning: I've been asked to make a presentation there. My theme (if I don't wander too far off the subject) is "Computer hobbyists of the 70s and 80s" - mostly from a Commodore user perspective, of course. It runs about an hour. This is in connection with a computer museum at York; a bunch of older computers (including lotsa Commodores) will be on display. A little more information can be found at: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/museum/events/events.htm (gosh, I think they must have retouched my photo). And the YorkU host, Zbigniew Stachniak, says: >> Since our history of computing lecture series event is open to anyone, >> you are, of course, free to bring with you anybody who is interested >> in your lecture. > > So come along if you have time and inclination (like the guy who leaned his grandfather clock agains the wall), and we'll all revise history together. :-) --Jim Butterfield Jim "the other Jim" Brain. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 22:15:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:15:00 -0600 Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <200503040121.UAA01859@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4227AD37.20804@oldskool.org> <200503040121.UAA01859@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4227E0C4.4060200@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > As a simple example, if the high bit of a compressed codon is 1, the > next bit is significantly more likely to be 0 than 1 - at least until > the table fills up. For a more complex example, consider the Shannon > estimate of one bit per letter for normal connected English text. At With all due respect, we're talking about LZW, not Shannon's english language estimate -- I don't think your comments are appropriate in the context of this discussion. Pop on over to comp.compression and I'd be happy to discuss the amount of entropy present in human language, but once data gets transformed by LZW it has very little entropy left. (If it didn't, by your argument, you could still recompress it with a bitwise encoder like PAQ -- you can't (by a significant margin, anyway)). >>What I think you're getting at is that, since the source data has a >>lot of redundancy *and* is human parsable, it can be reconstructed >>more easily in the case of mangled data. > > Well, yeah; "is human parsable" is a form of redundancy, but one that > is almost impossible for programs to take advantage of - certainly Actually, WinRK uses a dictionary to currently achieve the very best Calgary Corpus score, so it is most definitely exploitable. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 22:20:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:20:07 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > The post was pretty far off-topic. This is cctalk, but playstation tech > support is pretty far off. Playstation? It's a 5-year-old computer, which the user is trying to upgrade an 8-year-old operating system. Was it necessary to jump on him? It's not like he was asking how to overclock his 3.6GHz P4 or something. Geez, I would have thought people would have been *flattered* that someone would specifically ask a question like that in this forum, showing that he values the advice of all of us more than others. I wonder -- would the response have been as unfavorable as if he were asking how to install Linux or FreeBSD? :-/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 22:23:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:23:17 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <4227DEBD.8060002@pacbell.net> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <4227DEBD.8060002@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4227E2B5.6000701@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: > You can listen to it yourself: > > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/targ_am.mp3 > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/targ_am.wav That sounds like crap :-) What I want to hear is Dompier's "The Fool on the Hill" code. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 3 22:23:59 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:23:59 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> At 09:16 PM 3/3/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: >I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I >remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold >an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. IIRC, the song was >"Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. I remember listening to sounds via AM radio in Target or Trek on an IMSAI circa 1979 or so. For that matter, it was fun just to listen to the sound coming from the radio when you did different things on the computer. Might we be able to begin to speculate exactly which parts of the Altair or IMSAI were the source of AM frequency emanations? Might there be a clever way to emulate the AM sound of the emulated code, generating the radio sound directly through the PC's audio system? - John From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Mar 3 22:27:37 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:27:37 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503032327.37746.pat@computer-refuge.org> 9000 VAX declared on Thursday 03 March 2005 11:08 pm: > There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to create > a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other than to > design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we grab the > VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them into an FPGA > compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 750 with gate array, > and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 scheme might be the easiest to > implement with an FPGA. > > So, does anybody have the 730, 750 or 780 schematics? No, I do not > plan to start the project. I just want to make sure whether it is > feasible. Thank you. Err, bitsavers? http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/dec/vax/780/MP*.pdf and /730/MP*.pdf at least. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 22:29:23 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:29:23 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Jim Leonard wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > The post was pretty far off-topic. This is cctalk, but playstation tech > > support is pretty far off. > It's a 5-year-old computer, which the user is trying to upgrade an 8-year-old > operating system. Was it necessary to jump on him? Sorry, to me (sole IT provider for a nonprofit organization) a 5 year old computer running winXP is next years technology. MS-DOS 6.2(2) / Windows 3.1(1) would have been about as far as I can stand having to listen on a "classic" mailing list / forum / usenet group, and even that's pushing it to some extent. I agree that perhaps we're a bit overzealous here at times, but there -are- more appropriate forums for this sort of inquiry. Hopefully no one's feathers get permanently bent out of joint, either by this thread or by the metaphor cocktail I just created. -dhbarr. From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 22:32:46 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:32:46 -0500 Subject: Open DEC digital equipment door without the key? Message-ID: I am curious about what is in the HSC70 but the the door is locked and the key is lost. There should be a PDP11 and several HD's inside, at far as I know. I think people on the list might know how to open the door without a key or force. The lock is not the round cylinder type found on a vax 4000. Thanks. vax, 9000 From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 3 22:37:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:37:51 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4227E61F.10000@oldskool.org> David H. Barr wrote: > Sorry, to me (sole IT provider for a nonprofit organization) a 5 year > old computer running winXP is next years technology. MS-DOS 6.2(2) / > Windows 3.1(1) would have been about as far as I can stand having to > listen on a "classic" mailing list / forum / usenet group, and even > that's pushing it to some extent. Hopefully he won't come back in a few years and gloat how he got a complete Apple Lisa in original box with manuals+media for $20 at a yard sale or something :-) It just seemed a bit hypocritical (not just you, all the harsh replies), especially considering we tackle "new software on old hardware" topics all the time (TCP stack for old micros, etc.) Okay, back to my 8088 assembler optimization... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 3 22:46:52 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:46:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AE6A.1010208@oldskool.org> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4227AE6A.1010208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050303204519.A648@localhost> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Subject: Re: Re installing XP on Sony > >> Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with >> Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not >> support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS > > Are you sure? Try an extremely recent distribution; there has been progress > on supporting "winmodems" in the last year. I have a Sony Vaio VX89, and linux 2.4 and 2.6 support the linmodem (via module), freeBSD now installed, allegedly suports, but I haven't tried it. I used wvdial for ppp. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 3 22:47:06 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:47:06 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus and/or Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and it would be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape systems and so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs the $2500-$3000 cards. Curt 9000 VAX wrote: >There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to create >a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other than to >design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we grab the >VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them into an FPGA >compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 750 with gate array, >and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 scheme might be the easiest to >implement with an FPGA. > >So, does anybody have the 730, 750 or 780 schematics? No, I do not >plan to start the project. I just want to make sure whether it is >feasible. Thank you. > >vax, 9000 > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 22:49:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:49:49 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > Playstation? Sorry, brainlock. The hands sometimes finish sentences before the brain catches up! >Was it necessary to jump on him? I didn't think I jumped on him. > I wonder -- would the response have been as unfavorable as if he were > asking how to install Linux or FreeBSD? :-/ If it was Linux I would have banned him from the list ;) I said it was far off topic, and I still think so. An "OT" prefix would have helped somewhat. But I certainly didn't jump on him about it. Regards, Jay West From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:02:20 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:02:20 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:47:06 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus and/or > Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and it would > be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape systems and > so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs the $2500-$3000 > cards. Are you talking about the boards made by Charon-VAX? Yes, it would be an interesting project. I am now a self-made expert on the Q-bus side. I'd be happy to help if some PCI guy want to do the work. vax, 9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:04:40 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:04:40 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227E61F.10000@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <4227E61F.10000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:37:51 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Okay, back to my 8088 assembler optimization... What is that? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 3 22:28:48 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:28:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: fixing broken .Z files? In-Reply-To: <4227E0C4.4060200@oldskool.org> References: <1109799933.13196.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503030408.XAA15923@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1109856278.14353.12.camel@weka.localdomain> <42275C76.7090101@pacbell.net> <200503032230.RAA00716@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4227AD37.20804@oldskool.org> <200503040121.UAA01859@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4227E0C4.4060200@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200503040508.AAA13033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...], but once data gets transformed by LZW it has very little > entropy left. I'm not sure what you mean by "entropy" here. The information-theoretic meaning I know is diametrically opposed to the sense in which you're using it (by it, highly compressed data has much, not little, entropy - almost as many bits of entropy, of information content, as it has surface bits). This is why I consistently use "redundancy" below. > (If it didn't, by your argument, you could still recompress it with a > bitwise encoder like PAQ -- you can't (by a significant margin, > anyway)). That's only because the encoder isn't smart enough to take advantage of the redundancy that's there. When I say redundancy is present, I am speaking from an information-theoretical standpoint; the presence of redundancy does not mean that any particular compression algorithm can squeeze it out. Saying that no encoding software exists that can compress some data blob, *even if true*, does not mean that there is no redundancy in it, only that - if there is any - no extant software knows how to find it and compress it out. For example, I can produce effectively unlimited amounts of data that has very little information content but which I defy any program to compress significantly. All I need to do is pick a random key and encrypt a stream of all-0-bits with that key using some decent algorithm (3DES, IDEA, arcfour, whatever). Only a few bits of information content (the size of the key, basically) but about as uncompressible as it gets. >> Well, yeah; "is human parsable" is a form of redundancy, but one >> that is almost impossible for programs to take advantage of - > Actually, WinRK uses a dictionary to currently achieve the very best > Calgary Corpus score, so it is most definitely exploitable. Using a dictionary helps with *some* "is human-parsable" redundancy. It's certainly not enough for all of it. Consider Yours with every time an postmark hasn't empty of two kin beside a whose boot-print with. Besides talk pathological we of chapter. ... or perhaps That's only because the encoder isn't smart enough to take advantage of the redundancy that's there. When I say redundancy is present, I am speaking from a cook's pantry; buying pre-ground pepper at the corner store won't be nearly as good as grinding it yourself. But a good vinegar exists that can compress some data blob, *even if true*, ... The former might be recognizable as nonsense if the code knows enough English grammar to recognize parts of speech and recognize the lack of a valid parse tree. The latter, well, recognizing that sort of nonsense as nonsense is as AI-complete as the natural langauge problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:17:32 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:17:32 +0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:47:06 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus and/or > Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and it would > be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape systems and > so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs the $2500-$3000 > cards. I don't know about other listmembers, but I'd hazard a guess to say that we have more CPUs (either Qbus or Unibus) than peripherals. Like for myself, I don't even have a single bootable device for my 8/M, 8/E, and my Unibus 11s (at least Qbus I have MFMs and DSSIs). So I think it'd be a boon to the collecting community in general to work on Qbus and Unibus interfaces to modern storage devices, either SCSI (which is abundantly and cheaply found) or IDE (means as a bonus we can use CF cards too). p.s. 9000, I'm watching your Qbus-SCSI project very closely.. p.p.s. Any chance of doing a Unibus one? please.... :-) Just my RM0.02. /wai-sun From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Mar 3 23:21:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:21:32 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Thursday 03 March 2005 11:47 pm: > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus > and/or Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and > it would be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape > systems and so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs > the $2500-$3000 cards. I've considered this before, and the PCI part seems to be a sizable stubling block. An ISA card might be an easier way to start off. I've got access to a fair range of machines with ISA slots, from IBM 5150 PCs to PIII desktops and IBM RS/6000s to DEC Alphas. Hmm, a ISA->QBUS adapter in an Alpha, running SIMH and talking to an RL02. This sounds like fun. :) Or hell, port the NetBSD/vax RL02 driver (after fixing it so it actually worked again) to NetBSD/Alpha (or Linux/Alpha if one was so inclined). :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From willisjo at zianet.com Thu Mar 3 23:29:34 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:29:34 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II problem Message-ID: Hello all, I purchased a MicroVAX II about a year ago. When I went to the office where it was sitting, the original owner, a former DEC field service engineer, and myself powered the machine up. VMS came up successfully; no problems there. The system is in a BA23 rackmount chassis, and contains a MOB Systems quniverter, to connect it to a BA11K Unibus chassis via two large ribbon cables. The system contains also the following boards: M7658 - 16-bit parallel I/O with DMA and block mode functions M3104 - DHV11-A 8-line asynchronous DMA MUX M7651 - 18/22-bit DMA general purpose parallel interface Also, a TQK50 TMSCP controller and an RQDX3 ST-506 MSCP controller. The system has for drives an RD54 fixed disk and a TK50 tape drive. Anyhow, once I got the system home and cabled everything back according to the notes/pictures taken of the original installation, the system would not come up, and the DC OK light on the front panel would not light. I checked and re-checked the cable connections, re-seated all the boards, still no-go. Realizing I would not need the Unibus chassis, as it contained no cards other than the one needed to connect it to the uVAX II's Qbus, I removed the Qbus part of the quniverter. This solved the DC OK problem, and the system would actually begin its power-on tests (F...E...D...C... etc.), however, it hangs at 3. From what I could find in DEC documentation, this is a "spurious interrupt" problem, and the docs gave no clue as to how to go about tracking it down to any specific part of the system. I have tried pulling all the cards except for CPU and memory, to no avail. I tried installing the RD54 in a VAXstation 2000. It boots VMS successfully when installed in that system, so I know the drive is good. Unfortunately, I recently moved and could not keep the BA11K due to space constraints, so I have since parted with that chassis. I'm completely stumped at this point. Any suggestions? Thanks much, John Willis From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 3 23:37:57 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:37:57 -0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 1:17 PM +0800 3/4/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >I don't know about other listmembers, but I'd hazard a guess to say >that we have more CPUs (either Qbus or Unibus) than peripherals. Like >for myself, I don't even have a single bootable device for my 8/M, >8/E, and my Unibus 11s (at least Qbus I have MFMs and DSSIs). I'm one of the lucky ones, all of my main PDP-11's have SCSI adapters. However, only one of my two -8's (/m & /e) have a disk controller, though I've not found time to get either -8 fully running :^( One thing that really worries me is that the days of being able to get new SCSI disks that will work with a PDP-11 are coming to an end, if they aren't already over. One of the vendors that is very good with getting 3rd party disks to work with VMS has reported that the new U320 drives don't sync down to Narrow SCSI right. >So I think it'd be a boon to the collecting community in general to >work on Qbus and Unibus interfaces to modern storage devices, either >SCSI (which is abundantly and cheaply found) or IDE (means as a bonus >we can use CF cards too). > >p.s. 9000, I'm watching your Qbus-SCSI project very closely.. >p.p.s. Any chance of doing a Unibus one? please.... :-) What I'd really like to see is some sort of MFM HD emulator. That's something that would be of use to more than just us DEC users. For those of us that would use it with DEC HW, something that would emulate a RD51-RD54 would be great for those OS's that expect a specific HD type. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:43:55 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:43:55 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:21:32 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Thursday 03 March 2005 11:47 pm: > > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus > > and/or Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and > > it would be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape > > systems and so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs > > the $2500-$3000 cards. > > I've considered this before, and the PCI part seems to be a sizable > stubling block. I was scared away by PCI too. Their are PLX PCI chipsets, and FPGA PCI cores but you still need to read the PCI protocol. > > An ISA card might be an easier way to start off. I've got access to a > fair range of machines with ISA slots, from IBM 5150 PCs to PIII > desktops and IBM RS/6000s to DEC Alphas. ISA is easier but less attractive, because people who are after PCI QBUS are after the speed of newer CPU's. vax, 9000 > > Hmm, a ISA->QBUS adapter in an Alpha, running SIMH and talking to an > RL02. This sounds like fun. :) Or hell, port the NetBSD/vax RL02 > driver (after fixing it so it actually worked again) to NetBSD/Alpha (or > Linux/Alpha if one was so inclined). :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:45:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:45:02 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:17:32 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:47:06 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus and/or > > Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and it would > > be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape systems and > > so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs the $2500-$3000 > > cards. > > I don't know about other listmembers, but I'd hazard a guess to say > that we have more CPUs (either Qbus or Unibus) than peripherals. Like > for myself, I don't even have a single bootable device for my 8/M, > 8/E, and my Unibus 11s (at least Qbus I have MFMs and DSSIs). > > So I think it'd be a boon to the collecting community in general to > work on Qbus and Unibus interfaces to modern storage devices, either > SCSI (which is abundantly and cheaply found) or IDE (means as a bonus > we can use CF cards too). > > p.s. 9000, I'm watching your Qbus-SCSI project very closely.. > p.p.s. Any chance of doing a Unibus one? please.... :-) No plan yet. :( > > Just my RM0.02. > /wai-sun > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Mar 3 23:46:56 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 05 05:46:56 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II problem Message-ID: <0503040546.AA16091@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John Willis wrote: > system would actually begin its power-on tests (F...E...D...C... etc.), > however, it hangs at 3. From what I could find in DEC documentation, > this is a "spurious interrupt" problem, 3 is _NOT_ an error, it just means that the system reached the >>> prompt at which you can give it commands like which device to boot from. Connect a terminal to the console port to interact with the console. MS From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 23:52:27 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:52:27 +0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:37:57 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm one of the lucky ones, all of my main PDP-11's have SCSI > adapters. However, only one of my two -8's (/m & /e) have a disk Lucky bastard! :-) Either you've had a windfall, or you're now less an arm and a leg... > controller, though I've not found time to get either -8 fully running > :^( One thing that really worries me is that the days of being able > to get new SCSI disks that will work with a PDP-11 are coming to an > end, if they aren't already over. One of the vendors that is very > good with getting 3rd party disks to work with VMS has reported that > the new U320 drives don't sync down to Narrow SCSI right. Wow. That has happened already?... bummer > What I'd really like to see is some sort of MFM HD emulator. That's > something that would be of use to more than just us DEC users. For > those of us that would use it with DEC HW, something that would > emulate a RD51-RD54 would be great for those OS's that expect a > specific HD type. To fantasize further: - device end either SCSI/U320/SCA or IDE/SATA - bus end (Qbus or Unibus) emulates the largest type of a family, i.e: RD/RD54, RL/RL02, RX/RX02, RK/RK07, same for RP, and the rest I think the hardware part is the easiest. The stumbling block would be the emulation layer in order for applications to run unchanged int the various DEC OSs.. /wai-sun From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 00:04:26 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:04:26 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II Problem Message-ID: Here's the output from the system when connected to a terminal: KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests. 7..6..5..4..3.. No dead-sergeant prompt >>> It used to also have 2..1.. and then go to the >>> John Willis wrote: > system would actually begin its power-on tests (F...E...D...C... etc.), > however, it hangs at 3. From what I could find in DEC documentation, > this is a "spurious interrupt" problem, 3 is _NOT_ an error, it just means that the system reached the >>> prompt at which you can give it commands like which device to boot from. Connect a terminal to the console port to interact with the console. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 4 00:16:47 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 05 06:16:47 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II Problem Message-ID: <0503040616.AA16184@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John Willis wrote: > 7..6..5..4..3.. > > > No dead-sergeant prompt >>> How is the halt enable switch on the back set? MS From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Mar 4 00:44:54 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:44:54 -0800 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303224341.03777bd0@mail.zipcon.net> At 08:23 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >-snip- >I remember listening to sounds via AM radio in Target or Trek on >an IMSAI circa 1979 or so. For that matter, it was fun just >to listen to the sound coming from the radio when you did different >things on the computer. I remember that the program Dancing Demon on the TRS-80 model I did music and tap effects if you put an AM radio near the machine :) From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 00:29:42 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:29:42 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <4227E61F.10000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42280056.1060702@oldskool.org> 9000 VAX wrote: > On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:37:51 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Okay, back to my 8088 assembler optimization... > > What is that? Hobby project -- trying to improve my previous technology demonstration of color video playback on an IBM Model 5150. Search archives of this list for mentions of it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 01:10:20 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:10:20 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II Problem In-Reply-To: <0503040616.AA16184@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: Back panel: There is a toggle switch. Two settings. One with an empty circle with a dot above it, and one circle with a dot in the center. It is set on the empty circle with the dot above. (down position). The front panel is set as follows: Fixed disk 0 write protect: off (out position) Halt: off (out position - although I've tried it in the in position as well) Ready: in position (out makes it light up green... again, I've tried both) There is also a dial in the back. -> ( ) \/\ (T) it is set to the -> setting. on 3/3/05 11:16 PM, Michael Sokolov at msokolov at ivan.harhan.org wrote: > John Willis wrote: > >> 7..6..5..4..3.. >> >> >> No dead-sergeant prompt >>> > > How is the halt enable switch on the back set? > > MS > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 4 01:26:04 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 05 07:26:04 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II Problem Message-ID: <0503040726.AA16303@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John Willis wrote: > Back panel: > > There is a toggle switch. Two settings. One with an empty circle with a > dot above it, and one > circle with a dot in the center. It is set on the empty circle with the > dot above. (down position). This is the halts disabled position. Set it to dot-in-the-circle (halts enabled) and it should give you the >>> prompt. In the halts disabled position is attempts autoboot. I assume that the hang you are seeing is the result of autoboot not succeeding / looping. Setting the dot in the circle will disable autoboot and give you the console; you can then check your system out manually. MS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 01:40:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:40:50 -0500 Subject: VC8/I Point Plot Controller In-Reply-To: <4227DAC6.5070203@nktelco.net> References: <4227DAC6.5070203@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:49:26 -0500, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I have been playing around with a collection of old Flip Chips that I > have and put together a VC8/I compatible scope controller for my PDP8/e. > > You can find a page about it here http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/ Pretty slick... since it's not the LAB/8 design, I wonder what it would take to fire up the 12-bit version of Spacewar on it. I've wanted to put something like the VC8I in my -8/i, but I've never seen the board set. Something like what you've put together is at least a possibility. Thanks for sharing it with us. -ethan From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 01:44:23 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 00:44:23 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II Problem In-Reply-To: <0503040726.AA16303@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: > > This is the halts disabled position. Set it to dot-in-the-circle (halts > enabled) and it should give you the >>> prompt. > > In the halts disabled position is attempts autoboot. I assume that the > hang you are seeing is the result of autoboot not succeeding / looping. > Setting the dot in the circle will disable autoboot and give you the console; > you can then check your system out manually. > > MS > Followed these instructions. This made a difference. Now, this is what I get: KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests. 7.. ?02 EXT HLT PC = 2004270C >>> But am unable to type anything at the >>> prompt From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 01:54:08 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:54:08 -0800 Subject: Age References: Message-ID: <000301c5208f$589d8ea0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Age: 0011 0010 (BIN), 62 (OCT), 32 (HEX) or 101011 (Excess-3 Gray Code).. Systems came online 1954. First computing device (circa 1973) HP-35 (still works perfect) First computer to program (circa 1973) GE-210 donated to our College by a bank. Languages ingested: BASIC (various including "TINY"), FORTRAN, COBOL (yeech!), FORTH, TILE, LISP, LOGO, and Assembly for 8085, 1802, 8751 and 6502. First home-built computer 1802 COSMAC, Second one used the Rockwell FORTH chip used for various robotics projects. Working (now) on a "cluster" for sh!ts and grins. Most early College classes used IBM punched cards and "batch" processing overnight. Early professional programming used ASR-33 with a $100 an hour mainframe at the other end running SPICE plus my code (BASIC) for RF scattering parameters and polar / rectangular conversions. I'm primarily a hardware guy and not a code pig. First "real" computer was an ATARI 400, then 800, 1200, etc.. 20 year run at Hughes Aircraft; used an Intel MDS-800 (ISIS), Tek 8550, PC-Base "ICE" developing code in Assembly and Micro-FORTH (later FIG-FORTH) for processors above. Engineering consultant for the last five years. Best regards, Steven Canning From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 03:05:37 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:05:37 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II Success! Message-ID: Thanks to all. The system now boots (at least partially) into VMS 5.1: 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed. Loading system software. 2..1..0.. VAX/VMS Version V5.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 .. PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 04-MAR-2005 03:04 $! Copyright (c) 1988 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. The VAX/VMS system is now executing the system startup procedure. %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 4-MAR-2005 03:06:19.27 %%%%%%%%%%% Logfile has been initialized by operator _OPA0: Logfile is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;762 %LICENSE-I-LOADED, DEC FORTRAN was successfully loaded with 50 units Now all that remains is to get Quasijarus onto some TK50s so I can run the One True UNIX. Thanks again for your patient help! John From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 03:08:56 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:08:56 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II Success - Part II Message-ID: Just a follow-up: Turns out that the problem was with the way the cards were installed in the Q-Bus. The mixed Q22/CD-serpentine backplane doesn't allow you to insert a Q-Bus card in the C/D slot of row 3. moving the three dual-height cards to the left hand side of the backplane fixed the problem and allowed the system to complete its tests and boot successfully. Thanks once again From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 4 05:16:39 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:16:39 GMT Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: "Richard A. Cini" "Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea" (Mar 3, 22:16) References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <10503041116.ZM10715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 3 2005, 22:16, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I > remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold > an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. IIRC, the song was > "Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. > > Does anyone (1) have this program in source and/or binary and (2) > can someone make a high-quality WAV file of it for me (since I don't have an > Altair)? Sounds (sorry) like a good idea. The inspiration for HAL singing "Daisy" when he was lobotomised by Dave Bowman in "2001" was that Bell Labs had demonstrated an IBM 7094 "singing" "Daisy" in 1961. Bell Labs were doing research into vocal-tract modelling; John Kelly had wired a speaker to one of the output bits and he and Carol Lochbaum[1] programmed the vocal, with Max Mathews, who was pioneering digital music, did the accompaniment. The whole thing was programmed onto magtape, read back once complete and "played" through the speaker. The recording they made was also once available on an album called "Music from Mathematics". I'm sure there used to be an article on the web about it, though I can't seem to find it right now, though I have found references to some of the Bell Labs reports and tapes: http://www.mindspring.com/~ssshp/ssshp_cd/ss_btl1.htm (about 2/3 down). What I can find, though, is a digitised copy of the recording they made, which I downloaded, so I've put it on my website for you: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.aifc I also have an MP3 version, which isn't much inferior (and much smaller!): http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.mp3 There's an updated, unaccompanied, somewhat shorter, version from later work (text-to-speech project) at Bell Labs: www.bell-labs.com/project/tts/languages.html www.bell-labs.com/project/tts/daisy.aiff [1] sometimes mispelt "Lockbaum" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 4 07:15:32 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:15:32 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <42285F74.nail52L1DZZ6A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold > an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. A few years earlier than the Altair, a DECUS package let you do this on a PDP-10. See http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-01/01/43,50011/mblurb.txt.html (NOTE: For simple, quick-and dirty listening, placing a transistor radio near the MI, or near Bay 2 of the KA10 will produce the music, but hardly in Hi Fi.) Tim. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 4 07:50:32 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:50:32 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 2005 08:15:32 EST." <42285F74.nail52L1DZZ6A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200503041350.j24DoWdG003526@mwave.heeltoe.com> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold >> an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. > >A few years earlier than the Altair, a DECUS package let you do this >on a PDP-10. See > > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-01/01/43,50011/mblurb.txt.html > > (NOTE: For simple, quick-and dirty listening, placing a > transistor radio near the MI, or near Bay 2 of the KA10 > will produce the music, but hardly in Hi Fi.) I remember seeing this on a IBM 1620. I have no idea what the program was called but as I recall (dimly) it used a 'field copy' command which, I think, would copy digits backward until it hit a field marker. If I remember correctly the length of the field affected the frequency heard (but who knows, maybe it was affecting the duty cycle). I think it only had one voice. It was a nice piece. Anyway, the repertoire (on punch cards) was large and varied. I rememeber the Christmas carols fondly :-) It all started (much like the 8" floppy story :-) when I asked, "what's the radio for?". Next thing I know - music! That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. -brad From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Mar 4 07:50:35 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:50:35 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF2BD@mail10.congressfinancial.com> The adorned "Daisy" is pretty neat! Does anyone have the original 8080 code used by Dompier at the Homebrew meeting? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 6:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea On Mar 3 2005, 22:16, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I > remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair and hold > an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. IIRC, the song was > "Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. > > Does anyone (1) have this program in source and/or binary and (2) > can someone make a high-quality WAV file of it for me (since I don't have an > Altair)? Sounds (sorry) like a good idea. The inspiration for HAL singing "Daisy" when he was lobotomised by Dave Bowman in "2001" was that Bell Labs had demonstrated an IBM 7094 "singing" "Daisy" in 1961. Bell Labs were doing research into vocal-tract modelling; John Kelly had wired a speaker to one of the output bits and he and Carol Lochbaum[1] programmed the vocal, with Max Mathews, who was pioneering digital music, did the accompaniment. The whole thing was programmed onto magtape, read back once complete and "played" through the speaker. The recording they made was also once available on an album called "Music from Mathematics". I'm sure there used to be an article on the web about it, though I can't seem to find it right now, though I have found references to some of the Bell Labs reports and tapes: http://www.mindspring.com/~ssshp/ssshp_cd/ss_btl1.htm (about 2/3 down). What I can find, though, is a digitised copy of the recording they made, which I downloaded, so I've put it on my website for you: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.aifc I also have an MP3 version, which isn't much inferior (and much smaller!): http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.mp3 There's an updated, unaccompanied, somewhat shorter, version from later work (text-to-speech project) at Bell Labs: www.bell-labs.com/project/tts/languages.html www.bell-labs.com/project/tts/daisy.aiff [1] sometimes mispelt "Lockbaum" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Mar 4 07:59:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:59:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <200503041350.j24DoWdG003526@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, given the proper power up sequence. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Mar 4 08:24:14 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:24:14 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF2BF@mail10.congressfinancial.com> I have a 7445A at home...anyone know the key sequence? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:00 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea > That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, given the proper power up sequence. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 4 08:49:10 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:49:10 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <24a0711249beee.249beee24a0711@optonline.net> Back in '73..'75 an "enterprising soul" wrote a complete "symphony" for a PDP-8. Made use of the various shounds available on our system, primarily (IIRC), the 6 TU-56 Drives (12 tapes), System Console, Line Printer, 4 ASR-33 and 2 DecWriters.... From news at computercollector.com Fri Mar 4 09:04:38 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:04:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Mar 4 09:13:08 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:13:08 +0100 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <16932.57212.243000.563442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1109691827.20910.7.camel@fortran> <16932.57212.243000.563442@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1109949188.20910.25.camel@fortran> On Tue, 2005-03-01 at 16:32 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tore" == Tore S Bekkedal writes: > > Tore> On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 15:00 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > >> 4. The IBM "butterfly" 486 laptop > Tore> A lot of the early portable/laptop machines were interesting, > Tore> x86 arch nonwithstanding. > > Tore> The coolest laptop I know is the IBM PS/2 p70... I'd be most > Tore> interested if anyone had this or the p75 in Norway. > > Did you ever see the PowerPC laptop? I don't know anything about it, > but I saw one in the hands of an IBM Zurich R&D Lab person. Looked > just like a plain old Thinkpad, but it ran Unix and I'm 95% sure it > had a PowerPC, not an x86 processor. > > Oh yes, it also had a French keyboard to mess up the rest of the > world, with the letters in the wrong place... :-) For a PPC ThinkPad I'd gladly get used to that :) The p70 was MCA, had one 32-bit and one 16-bit slot. This meant... You could insert a full System/370 CPU!! Imagine that, a VMS portable...! -- Tore S Bekkedal From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 09:17:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:17:27 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <10503041116.ZM10715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <10503041116.ZM10715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42287C07.5010808@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Sounds (sorry) like a good idea. The inspiration for HAL singing > "Daisy" when he was lobotomised by Dave Bowman in "2001" was that Bell > Labs had demonstrated an IBM 7094 "singing" "Daisy" in 1961. Bell Labs > were doing research into vocal-tract modelling; John Kelly had wired a > speaker to one of the output bits and he and Carol Lochbaum[1] > programmed the vocal, with Max Mathews, who was pioneering digital > music, did the accompaniment. The whole thing was programmed onto > magtape, read back once complete and "played" through the speaker. The > recording they made was also once available on an album called "Music > from Mathematics". A great, clean source for this and other pioneering music synthesis experiments is on "The Historical CD of Digital Sound Synthesis", a CD+booklet set. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 09:19:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:19:28 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42287C80.8040308@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: >>That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. > > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, > given the proper power up sequence. There is someone (CRAZY) who is doing the same thing with dot-matrix printer head movement and printing, and the best thing is, it really sounds quite good. Here's an example: http://www.qotile.net/audio/printer2.mp3 (that example is featured in Jason Scott's upcoming BBS documentary, btw) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 4 09:25:45 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:25:45 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42287DF9.nail6WS11I61B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, > given the proper power up sequence. An a.f.c story from the 90's that I remember is a printer company putting diagnostics in a dot matrix printer's firmware, so that on checksum/other internal failures a song was played out through the stepper motors. These diagnostics were intended largely for development/ factory use. One day the support group got a call from a user who was having a problem with a printer, but seemed strangely reluctant to actually describe the symptoms. After much cajoling, they finally got the customer to admit that indeed, every time the printer was turned on all it did was play "Camptown ladies" over and over again... this immediately told the engineers which ROM had failed! Tim. From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Mar 4 09:25:38 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:25:38 +0100 Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > The p70 was MCA, had one 32-bit and one 16-bit slot. > This meant... You could insert a full System/370 CPU!! > > Imagine that, a VMS portable...! > > -- > Tore S Bekkedal Isn't VMS from D|I|G|I|T|A|L| and *MVS* from IBM? Or had IBM also a "VMS"? BTW, what do the letters stand for (inbotb abbreviations)? - Henk, PA8PDP. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Mar 4 09:56:00 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:56:00 -0500 (est) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: from "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" at Mar 3, 05 06:09:25 pm Message-ID: <200503041556.KAA27308@wordstock.com> And thusly Jim Isbell, W5JAI spake: > > Thanks, that IS a helpful post. I would love to set this up with > Linux like my main computer is but unfortunately Linux does not > support my Sprint tele-modem software that is written for MS > > If you are talking about Sprint cellphones with the Vision service, Linux *does* work quite well - all you need is the right cable. Cheers, Bryan Pope From classiccmp at eco.li Fri Mar 4 09:33:54 2005 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:33:54 +0000 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <20050304153354.GV9384@hades.eco.li> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 04:25:38PM +0100, Gooijen H wrote: > > Isn't VMS from D|I|G|I|T|A|L| and *MVS* from IBM? Yes. > Or had IBM also a "VMS"? > BTW, what do the letters stand for (inbotb abbreviations)? VMS stands for, IIRC, Virtual Memory System. Not sure what MVS stands for. Dan -- I profoundly believe it takes a lot of practice to become a moral slob. -- William F. Buckley From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 09:26:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:26:49 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ Well, that's a can of worms. Who invented the concepts? Gary, who invented CP/M. Who wrote the code? Tim. I have a video clip of Tim specifically talking about how he modeled it after CP/M as interviewed in Cringley's Triumph Of The Nerds documentary from 1995. There's no dispute (at least in 1995) that DOS was modeled after CP/M. The use of Int 21 is also a clue. You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, but we won't go there :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 09:44:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <32886.64.169.63.74.1109951046.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote about a DL11: > If I exam 776500, I get a 200, > but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all zero's in the > data register. It's a UART. Unless you wire it for loopback, you normally won't read back the same data you wrote. Eric From charlesb at otcgaming.net Fri Mar 4 09:45:32 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:45:32 -0000 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012001c520d1$33cd8d90$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Well it wasn?t bill gates that's for sure, iirc he bought it from sum1 else Regards charles -----Original Message----- From: Computer Collector Newsletter [mailto:news at computercollector.com] Sent: 04 March 2005 15:05 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Who invented DOS? I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 02/03/2005 From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 09:47:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:47:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Open DEC digital equipment door without the key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32923.64.169.63.74.1109951272.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > I am curious about what is in the HSC70 but the the door is locked and > the key is lost. There should be a PDP11 and several HD's inside, at > far as I know. There's not a PDP-11 per se. There is a J11 processor, on a special bus that is not mechanically compatible with anything else, and electrically somewhat similar to a Qbus but not interchangeable, along with an additional channel bus. No HDs inside, just an RX50 floppy drive. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 09:49:34 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:49:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > If it was Linux I would have banned him from the list ;) Why? Linux is less OT than Windows XP, at least in terms of age and ability to run on old hardware. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 09:47:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:47:41 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> At 09:26 AM 3/4/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, but we won't go there :-) Never! RT-11, maybe. There's plenty of geek haggling at Slashdot, natch: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 - John From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Mar 4 09:57:38 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:57:38 -0500 Subject: classic X86 hardware Message-ID: <20050304155738.YCOX25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >VMS stands for, IIRC, Virtual Memory System. Not sure what MVS stands for. Multiple Virtual Storage. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 09:58:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:58:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <20050304153354.GV9384@hades.eco.li> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <20050304153354.GV9384@hades.eco.li> Message-ID: <33044.64.169.63.74.1109951884.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Dan wrote: > VMS stands for, IIRC, Virtual Memory System. Not sure what MVS stands for. Multiple Virtual Spaces (not 100% sure on the "S"). From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 4 09:58:36 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:58:36 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <422885AC.nail78M165WB0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, But that's obviously not the case. The lineage to DEC OS's (OS/8, DOS-11, RT-11, and all of their predecessors) is obvious. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 09:54:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This is not a PC support list. > > > > You want to go out and buy yourself a copy of this: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764508938/102-2056266-4737743 > > That was a bit harsh, considering this is the cctalk list and not the cctech > list. Besides, his laptop is 4-5 years old if it only has a 5GB drive, so > that's getting closer to on-topic, yes? No, it is not anywhere near on topic and probably won't be for a long time. > Just because we use old computers every day doesn't mean we ONLY use old > computers every day... That is so true. But it is also true that there are a million other resources on the internet to get the sort of information one needs to work on PCs, the least of which is Google. The point is that if I went onto a PC mailing list and asked someone to help me troubleshoot my Commodore 64, I would probably be ignored, possibly even laughed off, and rightly so. We have a very special mailing list here with a specific character, which is of great value to people in this hobby. If we allow really common, unextraordinary PC maintenance issues to be discussed any old time someone wants to bring them up even though there are an infinite number of tools and resources available only a few clicks away, we'll lose that unique character, and subsequently most of the people who currently inhabit this space who are valuable resources for the hobby. Folks have used the list in the past to ask PC related problems, but that has been in situations where they have already exhausted all other resources, or they are in a serious pinch and needed immediate information, and they always explain this. This has been a rare occurence as most people respect the character of the mailing list and its members. Jim's issue could've been answered after 5 minutes of Googling. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Mar 4 10:03:52 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:03:52 +0100 Subject: 11/45 progress Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CF@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > Jay wrote about a DL11: > If I exam 776500, I get a 200, > but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all > zero's in the data register. I will dig up my notes getting characters in and out a M7800 in my 11/35 resurrection using the front panel several years ago. This is also an advice: make notes of *everything* you do on a system, no matter how trivial at this time. Changing a wire, trying some toggle in tests on the console, behaviour, measured voltages on pins, etc. If problems occur later you can go back and do all tests from your notes. That's why I can write my tests with the M7800 when I get home (in a few hours from now). - Henk, PA8PDP. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Mar 4 10:10:17 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:10:17 +0100 Subject: classic X86 hardware In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135CE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <1109952618.20910.28.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 16:25 +0100, Gooijen H wrote: > Isn't VMS from D|I|G|I|T|A|L| and *MVS* from IBM? Blargh, yes, VMS and MVS are far too similar :) I made a friend of mine almost choke on his coffee when I suggested he install MVS on his uVAX II :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 4 10:21:47 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:21:47 -0800 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com><42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> Message-ID: > At 09:26 AM 3/4/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > >You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, but we won't go there :-) > > Never! RT-11, maybe. I always thought both were modeled after OS/8 :-). (Which was, in turn, a souped up DMS.) Vince From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 10:18:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:18:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > Might we be able to begin to speculate exactly which parts of the > Altair or IMSAI were the source of AM frequency emanations? > > Might there be a clever way to emulate the AM sound of the emulated code, > generating the radio sound directly through the PC's audio system? Very cool idea. This should be possible. I have no suggestions, unfortunately. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 10:36:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:36:05 +0000 Subject: Chorus Systemes? Message-ID: <1109954165.21184.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone know anything about Chorus Systemes and what they were up to circa 1990? I'm just unravelling a lot of old internal Acorn code/documentation and the name's cropping up quite a bit... (I do recall using a distributed system called Chorus in the early 90's, but I have no idea if that's at all related...) ta Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 10:34:09 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:34:09 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304102620.04d39908@mail> At 10:18 AM 3/4/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: >> Might there be a clever way to emulate the AM sound of the emulated code, >> generating the radio sound directly through the PC's audio system? > >Very cool idea. This should be possible. I have no suggestions, >unfortunately. I would guess that the answer to "What generates the AM tone?" might differ between systems. One answer lies in disassembling the code that makes the sound. Each program might have its own unique method. Is it mem-copy loops, on-chip or off-chip execution loops, I/O pokes, patterns in bus access? Another answer might come from measuring the intensity of the radiated interference at various parts of the machine. So far, it all sounds like something that could be emulated. I've always thought that emulators should come with much more familiar sound effects, like the sounds of keyboards, disk drive doors opening and closing, floppy steppers engaging, fans, tapes turning, etc. That's all part of the memory we're savoring and preserving, no? I'll stop at smell-o-vision - although I have nasal memories of particular computer parts, too, like blowtorching 74xx chips off scrap boards as a teen, or the particular melange of out-gassing or baking of plastics. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 4 10:40:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:40:51 -0700 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >Why? Linux is less OT than Windows XP, at least in terms of age >and ability to run on old hardware. > > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. Ben alias woodelf From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 10:51:10 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:51:10 -0700 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <024701c520d6$44038a20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> <024701c520d6$44038a20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20050304165110.90292.qmail@halo.zianet.com> vrs writes: >> At 09:26 AM 3/4/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, but we won't go > there :-) >> >> Never! RT-11, maybe. > > I always thought both were modeled after OS/8 :-). (Which was, in turn, a > souped up DMS.) > > Vince > It was originally written by Tim Patterson of Seattle Computer Products, as 86-QDOS (Quick and Dirty OS). The initial purchase by Microsoft was for $15,000 IIRC, but full rights to the OS were purchased later for a larger sum. Patterson was originally planning on including multitasking, but did not due to time constraints. The OS gained tree-structured directories and I/O redirection/pipes (< > >> |) in 2.0 (inspired by UNIX), and a major rewrite for 5.0 (I believe this rewrite was largely the work of Charles Simonyi, but could not be sure). Tim Patterson was hired by Microsoft for a period of time. John John P. Willis Coherent Logic Development From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Mar 4 10:57:29 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:57:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). --Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 10:56:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:56:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <10503041116.ZM10715@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Sounds (sorry) like a good idea. The inspiration for HAL singing > "Daisy" when he was lobotomised by Dave Bowman in "2001" was that Bell > Labs had demonstrated an IBM 7094 "singing" "Daisy" in 1961. Bell Labs http://vortex.com/rmf/daisy.ram (Requires RealPlayer) > were doing research into vocal-tract modelling; John Kelly had wired a > speaker to one of the output bits and he and Carol Lochbaum[1] > programmed the vocal, with Max Mathews, who was pioneering digital > music, did the accompaniment. The whole thing was programmed onto > magtape, read back once complete and "played" through the speaker. The > recording they made was also once available on an album called "Music > from Mathematics". Never heard of that one! But it's also available on a 45 called "Computer Speech: He Saw the Cat" produced by Bell Telephone Laboratories. Copies of that are not terribly uncommon. I have the album and John Lawson (thanks!) transcribed a copy to CD for me. > I'm sure there used to be an article on the web about it, though I > can't seem to find it right now, though I have found references to some > of the Bell Labs reports and tapes: > http://www.mindspring.com/~ssshp/ssshp_cd/ss_btl1.htm (about 2/3 down). > What I can find, though, is a digitised copy of the recording they > made, which I downloaded, so I've put it on my website for you: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.aifc Always good to have mirrors :) The link above has been there for years. > I also have an MP3 version, which isn't much inferior (and much > smaller!): > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/daisy.mp3 Ooh, an MP3 version :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 10:58:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:58:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. > > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, > given the proper power up sequence. I have a program that plays "Daisy" on the Commodore 1541 disk drive(!) Miraculous. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 10:59:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:59:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <24a0711249beee.249beee24a0711@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > Back in '73..'75 an "enterprising soul" wrote a complete "symphony" for > a PDP-8. Made use of the various shounds available on our system, > primarily (IIRC), the 6 TU-56 Drives (12 tapes), System Console, Line > Printer, 4 ASR-33 and 2 DecWriters.... Ooh, do tell more. What did it sound like? Any recordings available? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Fri Mar 4 11:04:22 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:04:22 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com><42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org><6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> Message-ID: <07ce01c520dc$3738f220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ...OS/8 :-). (Which was, in turn, a souped up DMS.) Since it's 100% on topic and as of now unknown to me, what is DMS? {Stretching} > There's plenty of geek haggling at Slashdot, natch: > http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 or so. Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? John A. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:03:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:03:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ Hmm, should be very interesting, though courts deciding technical issues really bugs me as the outcomes rarely come out right. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 11:06:36 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 11:06:36 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> At 10:57 AM 3/4/2005, cswiger wrote: >All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for >directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). It's discussed in some of the linked references in the Slashdot discussion. One suggestion was that / was used as a prefix for command modifiers (/X /A etc.) so it would be slightly harder to parse. Certainly command arguments preceded folders, both in CP/M and QDOS. Not many people know this, but at low levels in old Mac OS, they used ":" as a folder separator in file specifiers. - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 4 11:13:20 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:13:20 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <2526b3525269e4.25269e42526b35@optonline.net> >> Back in '73..'75 an "enterprising soul" wrote a complete >> "symphony" for a PDP-8. Made use of the various shounds >> available on our system, primarily (IIRC), the 6 TU-56 Drives >> (12 tapes), System Console, >> Line> Printer, 4 ASR-33 and 2 DecWriters.... > > Ooh, do tell more. What did it sound like? Any recordings available? > > -- Alas I know of no recordings, and to be honest I can not remember the tune itself. What I do remember [this was a school district computer]: 1) Having a heading from listening to Bill K, and Erich F "tuning" the program 2) Mr. "C" [music director] coming down and spending hours critiquing! From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 11:13:28 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:13:28 -0700 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20050304171328.8412.qmail@halo.zianet.com> cswiger writes: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > > --Chuck > > There's an old bit of folklore that says the forward slash key was broken on Patterson's keyboard ;^) John P. Willis Coherent Logic Development From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 4 11:14:53 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:14:53 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <2522e0225214ee.25214ee2522e02@optonline.net> > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > Dont know "who" but the alleged "why" was to avoid confusion in parsing (switches used "/" [same as DEC,CP/M] rather than "-" ala Unix. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 4 11:13:00 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:13:00 -0700 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <4228971C.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> cswiger wrote: >All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for >directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > >--Chuck > > I think CP/M had used the '/' in the name CP/M so they had to use '\' instead. :) I have not used CP/M but it could be the fact / was used as a flag for single letter comand line arguments and a disk ( only floppies ) was supported with NO file directories so you had no problem with '\' for paths. Still you can't tar Mr Gates since part of the blame was intel suporting 8080 translating programs to convert 8080 source code into 8088 code and having to keep all the fun features like CP/M. Ben alias woodelf From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 4 11:18:32 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 05 17:18:32 GMT Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <0503041718.AA17025@ivan.Harhan.ORG> cswiger wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). '/' was already taken up for the command line switch introducer character (not '-' since CP/M and DOS were originally inspired from the culture of DEC OS's rather than the UNIX culture). MS From mcesari at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 11:23:58 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:23:58 -0700 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2005, at 9:57 AM, cswiger wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > > --Chuck > Because '/' was already used for command options (ala RT-11, etc.). They _could_ have used a directory syntax like VMS, TOPS-10, and other DEC -- DSK:[MFD.UFD.UFD...]file.ext or DSK:file.ext[UFD.UFD.UFD...] TOPS-10 variant or TOPS-20: DSK:file.ext or ITS: UFD;FILE EXT :-) Mike From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:43:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:43:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chorus Systemes? In-Reply-To: <1109954165.21184.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know anything about Chorus Systemes and what they were up to > circa 1990? I'm just unravelling a lot of old internal Acorn > code/documentation and the name's cropping up quite a bit... > > (I do recall using a distributed system called Chorus in the early 90's, > but I have no idea if that's at all related...) Chorus Data Systems perhaps? They made digitizers (for photos) in the 1980s. I'm currently looking for information on their picture file format, as nothing I have can decode them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:47:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304102620.04d39908@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > I've always thought that emulators should come with much more familiar > sound effects, like the sounds of keyboards, disk drive doors > opening and closing, floppy steppers engaging, fans, tapes turning, etc. > That's all part of the memory we're savoring and preserving, no? It's one final touch that can be added to a simulator that makes it stand out, that's for certain. The EDSAC simulator also emulates the printer output (whack whack whack for each character), the bell, and the telephone dial input. Very neat. > I'll stop at smell-o-vision - although I have nasal memories of > particular computer parts, too, like blowtorching 74xx chips off > scrap boards as a teen, or the particular melange of out-gassing > or baking of plastics. If someone does want to do this, I have an aroma synthesizer somewhere in my collection that was made in the late 1980s. I don't have any information on it or how it works (I'd have to find it first) but at least we know they do exist ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:47:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:47:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). I'm with you there! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:50:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <07ce01c520dc$3738f220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: > > There's plenty of geek haggling at Slashdot, natch: > > http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 > > These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 or so. > Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? What CP/M easter egg? That ensuing discussion lacks any useful detail. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 11:52:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:52:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <2526b3525269e4.25269e42526b35@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > >> Back in '73..'75 an "enterprising soul" wrote a complete > >> "symphony" for a PDP-8. Made use of the various shounds > >> available on our system, primarily (IIRC), the 6 TU-56 Drives > >> (12 tapes), System Console, > >> Line> Printer, 4 ASR-33 and 2 DecWriters.... > > > > Ooh, do tell more. What did it sound like? Any recordings available? > > > > -- > > Alas I know of no recordings, and to be honest I can not remember the tune itself. What I do remember [this was a school district computer]: > > 1) Having a heading from listening to Bill K, and Erich F "tuning" the program > 2) Mr. "C" [music director] coming down and spending hours critiquing! You have GOT to get more information on this. We need more oral histories! Call your friends and try to get in touch with your old music teacher and get us more details! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 12:02:23 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:02:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050304095907.D648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ Egad, how depressing and embarrassing. And only $75K?! I don't see why "slapdash" as a criticism lessens it's value. 86DOS *was* "slapdash", but so what? I think Microsoft would call it "fast to market". They bought it anyways, huh. Patterson's code tended towards onelonghugesourcewithnocomments but he was a good programmer and 86DOS was significant. Why do things always turn out like this. Please, don't answer :-) From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 4 12:16:56 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:16:56 -0800 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com><42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org><6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> <07ce01c520dc$3738f220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > > ...OS/8 :-). (Which was, in turn, a souped up DMS.) > > Since it's 100% on topic and as of now unknown to me, > what is DMS? The older 4K disk system for the PDP-8. The user interface is a bit like OS/8, but with no CCL (just load, save, and run). Vince From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 12:19:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20050304101758.I648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). Some asshole. But, throughout all my DOS years I used - as the switch character which told MSDOS to use / as a directory character. In CONFIG.SYS: SWITCHAR=- From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 12:21:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050304102028.G648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Back in '73..'75 an "enterprising soul" wrote a complete "symphony" for >> a PDP-8. Made use of the various shounds available on our system, >> primarily (IIRC), the 6 TU-56 Drives (12 tapes), System Console, Line >> Printer, 4 ASR-33 and 2 DecWriters.... > > Ooh, do tell more. What did it sound like? Any recordings available? There was a similar program for Data General Nova systems. It was called AMOK. Very punny. I distinctly remember the paper tapes for the Nova AM radio music programs in the library at work. Don't recall ever running them though. From lcourtney at mvista.com Fri Mar 4 12:25:07 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:25:07 -0800 Subject: Chorus Systemes? In-Reply-To: <1109954165.21184.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Jules, Chorus Systems was bought by Sun in the late 90's (http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9711/sunflash.971111.4.html) and subsequently fumbled. Some remnants (http://www.jaluna.com/index.html) have emerged as a hypervisor for enabling RTOS capabilities on Linux? Or something along those lines. Cheers, Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:36 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Chorus Systemes? > > > > Anyone know anything about Chorus Systemes and what they were up to > circa 1990? I'm just unravelling a lot of old internal Acorn > code/documentation and the name's cropping up quite a bit... > > (I do recall using a distributed system called Chorus in the early 90's, > but I have no idea if that's at all related...) > > ta > > Jules > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 4 12:30:49 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304101758.I648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > >> All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for >> directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > > Some asshole. > > But, throughout all my DOS years I used - as the switch character > which told MSDOS to use / as a directory character. In CONFIG.SYS: > > SWITCHAR=- > Also 4DOS (which ISTR is free now) allows use of either / or \ as a directory character Peter Wallace From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Mar 4 12:36:56 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:36:56 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> Message-ID: <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 11:06 -0600, John Foust wrote: > At 10:57 AM 3/4/2005, cswiger wrote: > >All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > >directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). Paul Allen has pled guilty to this one in interviews. The closest I can find to a direct admission is a side comment in this Wired interview from the mid-1990s: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.08/allen_pr.html Perhaps someone else will have more time/luck with Google than the couple of searches I tried. Plenty of third party assertions but I didn't see anything to back it up. > Not many people know this, but at low levels in old Mac OS, > they used ":" as a folder separator in file specifiers. Let us say, "not many average Mac users." Though limiting it to "average XYZ users" leaves the named group open to accusations of all manner of ignorance and stupidity... ;^) But I imagine anybody who ever looked at developing software for the Mac very quickly discovered this when they learned that - uhm, was it ADPA? The earlyish development environment for the Mac - included a shell, and you could see the filesystem more directly. So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any others at the moment. Can anybody think of any interesting ones? I can't remember what DomainOS did, but I remember it striking me when I learned of it. Mainframes? RTOSes? --S. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Mar 4 12:38:43 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:38:43 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304102620.04d39908@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304102620.04d39908@mail> Message-ID: <4228AB33.80903@pacbell.net> John Foust wrote: ... > I've always thought that emulators should come with much more familiar > sound effects, like the sounds of keyboards, disk drive doors > opening and closing, floppy steppers engaging, fans, tapes turning, etc. > That's all part of the memory we're savoring and preserving, no? My Sol-20 emulator has sound effects. There fan startup and running noise, the floppy disk door opening and closing, floppy disk head stepping, floppy motor start and stop, and disk friction noise. Since the real keyboard makes enough noise on its own I don't see what would be added by having fake keyboard noise too. http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solace/solace.html When I recorded the sounds I first used a dynamic microphone but the coil picked up more RF hum than anything else. An electret mic fixed that problem. It took a while to splice the fan sounds so they would loop nicely. The head stepping sound is of it stepping one track, but it does a fairly good job even when there is fast head stepping. One other thing I have done is to emulate the music card -- just a single pole RC lowpass filter hooked up to the S-100 INT* line. The "MUSIC" program would take a score and compile it into a program to toggle the INT line to produce polyphonic music -- although the notes aren't very well tempered as they get higher in frequency. It is pretty impressive that it works as well as it does: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/d-minor.mp3 I recently upgraded PC's and now my own emulator doesn't run right and the sound comes out only when I'm using the debugger. I guess it is about to time spin a revision on the emulator. From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 12:44:45 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:44:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> Message-ID: <20050304103646.C648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Also 4DOS (which ISTR is free now) allows use of either / or \ as a directory > character MSDOS never got better than this for me: * Bunch of extended, or is that expanded? memory (could never remember which stupid marketing euphemism was which) * huge, giant 100MB disk * ARCnet * MSDOS (not PCDOS) 3 I think * 4DOS * desqview * qmms * pmate, lattice C small model, plink (for overlays), masm That stuff ran just fine. Had a bunch of machines on 10base2 ARCnet. I got a lot of stuff down with that setup. It was all downhill from there for me until I found 386bsd. freeBSD is now as good as that (meaning, comfort, concentrate on work not farting around with the system, reliability). From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 12:50:57 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:50:57 +0000 Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <030420051850.9305.4228AE10000E72670000245922069997350603970A04040108@comcast.net> > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). I use Windows and Solaris. The driectory separator drives me batty. One thing that DOS got right is to retain the file date when a file is copied to another directory. ------------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ------------------------------- From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Mar 4 12:55:48 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:55:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <20050304185548.57B184000B9@ws82.cs.drexel.edu> "John Allain" wrote: > These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 or so. > Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? I have a version of MS-DOS 1.0 (running on an 8086 that is NOT PC-compatible) (A Japanese machine called Samurai with dual 8" floppies). So if somebody can tell me what the "CP/M easteregg" is, I can try it out. **vp From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 4 12:56:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony Message-ID: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" ---snip--- > >We have a very special mailing list here with a specific character, which >is of great value to people in this hobby. If we allow really common, >unextraordinary PC maintenance issues to be discussed any old time someone >wants to bring them up even though there are an infinite number of tools >and resources available only a few clicks away, we'll lose that unique >character, and subsequently most of the people who currently inhabit this >space who are valuable resources for the hobby. ---snip--- Hi I think many don't realize the damage that can happen when the group becomes a "Please fix my PC" group. I watched this happen to a news group that had too many people that tolerated such off topic post. From Jim's own words, he thought that this was a general computer group. It is not. While this group tends to wonder off topic every now and then ( I'm partly guilty of some of it ), it is still one of the best resources for general information on what we like to term as classic computers. We have a general 10 year rule. Although, we are seeing many PC's getting into the time frame, it has not shown up as a major collectable area. Question on fixing a MFM drive would be on topic partitioning XP is not. The primary purpose is to keep from having things fall into day-to-day computer operational problems. As Sellam says, this is not the right place for these. While there are many on this list that see little harm in fielding such off topic questions, I doubt they have seen a group destroyed as I have. For those that defend him, I doubt you realize that this group can be quickly destroyed by such sympathizes. When I step off topic ( and I have a few times ) I have no problems or animosity towards those that chastise me for doing so. If Jim feels that there is little purpose to this group because we are unfriendly to question about using XP, maybe he has an incorrect understanding of what this group is chartered for. I would like him to remain in the group if he has interest in older classic machines. If he doesn't then he is right to leave but there should be no hard feelings as it was just a mistake that is quickly rectified. Dwight PS Sorry about my Reply-To. I don't directly control this. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Mar 4 12:59:10 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF2DE@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Tha Altair32 Emulator uses sounds for feedback (all disable-able) for the switch clicks, drive door, disk head movement (load/unload/step) and system fan spin-up, run, and spin-down. And, no, I don't run the fan noise for the whole time :-) I have some of the same problems as Jim in that the sounds disappeared on my development machine (Windows 2000 and Visual Studio .NET 2003) when I upgraded from Visual Studio 6 to .NET. I believe that the sounds work on machines other than mine, though. Oddly enough, every once in a while, the sounds will appear, but only briefly, before disappearing again. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Battle Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea John Foust wrote: ... > I've always thought that emulators should come with much more familiar > sound effects, like the sounds of keyboards, disk drive doors > opening and closing, floppy steppers engaging, fans, tapes turning, etc. > That's all part of the memory we're savoring and preserving, no? My Sol-20 emulator has sound effects. There fan startup and running noise, the floppy disk door opening and closing, floppy disk head stepping, floppy motor start and stop, and disk friction noise. Since the real keyboard makes enough noise on its own I don't see what would be added by having fake keyboard noise too. http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solace/solace.html When I recorded the sounds I first used a dynamic microphone but the coil picked up more RF hum than anything else. An electret mic fixed that problem. It took a while to splice the fan sounds so they would loop nicely. The head stepping sound is of it stepping one track, but it does a fairly good job even when there is fast head stepping. One other thing I have done is to emulate the music card -- just a single pole RC lowpass filter hooked up to the S-100 INT* line. The "MUSIC" program would take a score and compile it into a program to toggle the INT line to produce polyphonic music -- although the notes aren't very well tempered as they get higher in frequency. It is pretty impressive that it works as well as it does: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/d-minor.mp3 I recently upgraded PC's and now my own emulator doesn't run right and the sound comes out only when I'm using the debugger. I guess it is about to time spin a revision on the emulator. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 4 13:07:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators Message-ID: <200503041907.LAA20506@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Jones" ---snip--- > > >So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path >separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and >uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any others >at the moment. Can anybody think of any interesting ones? I >can't remember what DomainOS did, but I remember it striking me >when I learned of it. Mainframes? RTOSes? > >--S. Hi The Polymorphics DOS uses dirname>filename.ext or dirname>subdir>filename.ext . It is funny in that the file names and directory names can be up to 32 characters but the extention is only 2 characters. If using the disk name, it can only be 8 characters. They also had subdirectories from the start. This DOS is like most of the older ones in that it one had to PACK every now and then to recover deleted disk space. Since it was created before DOS, I wonder where it got its roots? Dwight From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Mar 4 13:12:42 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:12:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> Ok - I have the Amiga vhs tape digitized as a 2gb mpg file. It's mostly the original developers, Jay, RJ, et al at some kind of reunion telling stories - with brief breaks for a few photos and home movie of RJ on stage telling stories. I can send it on a dvd in a mailer and will throw in an mpg4 episode of Computer Chronicals that focused on the Amiga - altho you can just download that from archive.org. Video quality is good, with just a little color problem at the beginning from my new wal-mart cheapie player. I think it's about 40 minutes or so. Photos include the original hardware with board stacks in place of the custom chips. Anyway, paypal $5 and your mail address to cswiger at widomaker.com and I'll get them in the post office Monday. Email me off list if you need to use a check or money order. --Chuck From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 4 13:14:32 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:14:32 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? References: <200503032327.37746.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <005b01c520ee$659954e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> The 730 was also the slowest VAX on the planet.. save the Microvax I. They used the 2901s bit slice data path chip, but I'm not certain they used the AM2910 usequencer. VHDL and verilog models ~are~ available for both those chips. I think though, it would be quite a bit of work to verbatim copy/translate those schematics.. Then you'd have to scarf the microcode from a 730 boot tape ;) I can help there since I have both a working 730 and a boot tape! btw - the pdp11/40 and VAX/780 have already been implemented on an FPGA! A better way would be to look at what this prof in Japan did -he's written a complete working pdp11/40 on a smallish altera fpga- - it even runs UNIX V6! and had an IDE hd interface. http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html pictures here: http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11pics.html here is the paper http://csdl.computer.org/comp/proceedings/asp-dac/2004/2543/00/25430571.pdf Get the files here: http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/ and note the VAX 780 project announcement. They show here that they are nearly complete on their VAX 780 on a chip project. Both the 780&11/40 are written in SFL - a nice but unpopular C-like HDL. This PDP is not microcoded. The tools are freely downloadable as well as the PDP11/40 source - so you can play on winblows and linux. I got both versions of the 11/40 to run but alas.. they don't boot V6. The makefile compiles SFL to verilog using a closed compiler SFL2VL written by the prog. It seems to run run fine on Icarus/verilog and simulate, but I have been unable to import that verilog successfully into Alteras or Xilinx's free software targetting a spartan2. Sad, as I wanted to use this as a front end to my PDP10 project written in SFL;) As far as PDP11s go - I'd be curious to try to implement an SFL WD1611/1621 and runing LSI11 microcode on an FPGA.. regards Heinz Patrick Finnegan wrote: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? > 9000 VAX declared on Thursday 03 March 2005 11:08 pm: > > There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to create > > a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other than to > > design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we grab the > > VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them into an FPGA > > compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 750 with gate array, > > and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 scheme might be the easiest to > > implement with an FPGA. > > > > So, does anybody have the 730, 750 or 780 schematics? No, I do not > > plan to start the project. I just want to make sure whether it is > > feasible. Thank you. From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 4 13:18:49 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:18:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304103646.C648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> <20050304103646.C648@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Also 4DOS (which ISTR is free now) allows use of either / or \ as a >> directory character > > MSDOS never got better than this for me: > > * Bunch of extended, or is that expanded? memory (could never remember > which stupid marketing euphemism was which) > * huge, giant 100MB disk > * ARCnet > * MSDOS (not PCDOS) 3 I think > * 4DOS > * desqview > * qmms > * pmate, lattice C small model, plink (for overlays), masm > > That stuff ran just fine. Had a bunch of machines on 10base2 > ARCnet. I got a lot of stuff down with that setup. It was all > downhill from there for me until I found 386bsd. freeBSD is now as > good as that (meaning, comfort, concentrate on work not farting > around with the system, reliability). > I still use DOS for our simple PC CAD stuff, I have newer (Mentor) PC CAD but the windows mousy interface drives me nuts for long layout sessions. The old CAD program (PADS PCB) uses the function keys on the left hand (IBM AT 84 KB) and the mouse on the right. No mousey menus to cause you to lose focus from the layout... So we still use DOS with 100BT Ethernet and Samba... Peter Wallace From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 13:32:45 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:32:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <63988.64.139.41.130.1109964765.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > Why? Linux is less OT than Windows XP, at least in terms of age > and ability to run on old hardware. Ben wrote: > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. XP won't run on pre 386 stuff. I'm not sure it will even run on a 386, but Linux definitely will. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 13:34:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:34:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <64071.64.139.41.130.1109964863.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Chuck wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). Dunno who, but it was done because MS-DOS/IBM-DOS inherited the use of "/" for command line options from CP/M, which in turn got it from various DEC operating systems. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:45:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:45:00 +0000 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 13:36 -0500, Steve Jones wrote: > So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path > separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and > uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any others > at the moment. Acorn's DFS is :drive.dir.filename - but dir can only be a single character (and directories can't be nested). What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? Most things of that era seem to work at the partition / file level and ignore the concept of directories altogether. > I can't remember what DomainOS did, but I remember it striking me > when I learned of it. Isn't it just machine:unix-path ? Can't remember now, although I may be attempting an install of DomainOS tomorrow so will be finding out pretty soon ;) (I do have manuals, just not here) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 4 13:46:17 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:46:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Mar 4, 5 08:58:21 am" Message-ID: <200503041946.LAA13258@floodgap.com> > > > That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. > > > > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, > > given the proper power up sequence. > > I have a program that plays "Daisy" on the Commodore 1541 disk drive(!) > Miraculous. It does it by knocking the drive heads around. I have a DriveComposer archive that will let you compose arbitrary music for the 1541 (imagine a whole chorus of them ... ) ... couldn't be good for alignment, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I like my women like my coffee: weak, cold and bitter. -- Kevin Metcalf ---- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 13:54:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:54:15 +0000 Subject: Windows LFN's (HP NewWave) Message-ID: <1109966055.21167.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Just found the following snippet in a 1990 document (someone's review of a GUI show which they'd attended). Just struck me as interesting in that I never knew there was an alternative to 8.3 filenames in the DOS/Windows world prior to Win95, nor have I ever heard of HP NewWave before... Apparently also included macros/activity recording, associations between data and application (e.g. double-click on a spreadsheet file and it opens in the spreadsheet app etc.), and context-sensitive help. Sounds like a winner, only I've never even heard of it... Apologies to the original author (who almost certainly isn't on this list!) for the cut & paste! (I do like that first line :-) ------- NewWave is a 'front end' to MSWindows to make them useable. It provides a Filer facility which tarts up the MS-DOS filing system to enable 30 character filenames with no obvious character set limitations (ie it'll accept a space in the filename) and a framework to interchange and combine multiple data types into one document. This framework manages dynamic links between the document and the original object which is contained in the document such that when the document is reconstructed any changes to, say the spreadsheet data, get reflected in, say, the report. Parts of foreign objects can also be imported with the same results, eg a few rows and columns of a spreadsheet can be imported to a word processed document. From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 4 14:03:33 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:03:33 -0700 Subject: Looking for some DEC stuff (again) Message-ID: <20050304200333.33553.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Looking for some DEC stuff for my private collection... New Mexico, Texas, Arizona area preferably: Any BA23 chassis (these could probably be shipped) Actually, BA123/213 would work too Any H9642 racks Any SDI drives (RAxx) Any working RD54s 9-track tape drive--any make that can be connected to a VAX, i.e. Kennedy would work, though a TU80/TU81/TU81+ would be ideal, as I already have the controller. KDA50 disk controller Any of the following: DELQA/DEQNA, RQDX3, TQK50 Contact me off-list if you have any leads. John P. Willis From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 4 14:07:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:07:37 -0500 Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> The only problem I have with RJ Michaels talk is he completely rewrites history on Amiga's dealing with Atari, omits the fact that Amiga was desperate for cash in late 1983 and through one of the unspoken chip designers - Joe Decuir, who also was on Jays team at Atari who did the final production version of the Atari 2600 and the Atari 800 Amiga met with Atari and signed into an agreement with Atari for $500,000 to help Amiga complete its chipset and on June 30th 84 they were supposed to deliver working silicon to Atari's offices under a contract that Atari would produce its own line of Lorraine chipset products. Instead of delivering the chips, the gave a check to Atari for $500,000 (from Commodore) and went into breach of contract. If it wasn't for Atari coming in late 83' with cash the chipset might not have seen the light of day. Curt cswiger wrote: >Ok - I have the Amiga vhs tape digitized as a 2gb mpg file. It's >mostly the original developers, Jay, RJ, et al at some kind of >reunion telling stories - with brief breaks for a few photos and >home movie of RJ on stage telling stories. I can send it on a >dvd in a mailer and will throw in an mpg4 episode of Computer >Chronicals that focused on the Amiga - altho you can just download that >from archive.org. Video quality is good, with just a little color >problem at the beginning from my new wal-mart cheapie player. I >think it's about 40 minutes or so. Photos include the original >hardware with board stacks in place of the custom chips. > >Anyway, paypal $5 and your mail address to cswiger at widomaker.com >and I'll get them in the post office Monday. Email me off list >if you need to use a check or money order. > >--Chuck > > > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 14:39:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:39:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bootstrapping kermit... D.G. Nova RDOS Message-ID: <20050304123053.Q648@localhost> I now have FORTRAN IV actually working now. I did previously make FORTRAN IV "HELLO, WORLD" run, using the TYPE command, since I had troubles with FORMAT, but it turns out the troubles successfully using FORMAT and WRITE were actually problems with the math library functions. I rebuilt the fortran library with the hardware mult/div and it all works. So I found an RDOS KERMIT program source. It's actually the output of some RATFOR, for FORTRAN 5, but hopefully I can get it to compile on FORTRAN 4. My problem is more contemporary. The kermit source text is on my "terminal" linux laptop. I'm using minicom. I need to do XFER/A $TTI KERMIT.FR on RDOS to input the text, but minicom blasts the text out too fast. I solved this problem in another world at another time by writing a "text upload" that dynamically watched for character echo and self-paced; is there anything like this around? I guess I could hack something up in Perl, to simply delay 25mS per character, or something; or extract the CPU card and set the console speed to 300, bu sheesh, the source is 68,798 characters, I have to debug fortran4 vs. fortran5 issues as it is, I don't want to chase down dropped single characters at the same time. Is there any linux tool to do this sort of console-bootstrap thing, or a way to coerce minicom? (Delay after newline is useless, tried that, even 999 mS.) From technobug at comcast.net Fri Mar 4 14:43:53 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:43:53 -0700 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <200503041748.j24Hls5u084993@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503041748.j24Hls5u084993@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <19eed85c7c2675359ec34a5361fb6fa2@comcast.net> > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, > given the proper power up sequence. > In the '68-70 timeframe I heard an amazing rendition of the Barcarole on the tape reader of an HP 2115 using the pinch roller solenoid with a punch card inserted as a resonator. However, the best use of music on computers was done by a friend who received special treatment from the Cyber operators after playing Charge on the high speed chain printers at the end of his job. Since he didn't advance the paper the printing effectively cut the paper causing the next several jobs to make an squirel's nest out of the insides of the printer. CRC From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 14:45:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:45:45 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4228C8F9.5040701@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. 18-year-old 386 machines are too "new" to discuss on this list? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Mar 4 14:46:41 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:46:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050304153449.L58882@wilma.widomaker.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The only problem I have with RJ Michaels talk is he completely rewrites > history on Amiga's dealing with Atari, omits the fact that Amiga was > desperate for cash in late 1983 and through one of the unspoken chip > designers - Joe Decuir, who also was on Jays team at Atari who did the > final production version of the Atari 2600 and the Atari 800 Amiga met > with Atari and signed into an agreement with Atari for $500,000 to help > Amiga complete its chipset and on June 30th 84 they were supposed to > deliver working silicon to Atari's offices under a contract that Atari > would produce its own line of Lorraine chipset products. Instead of > delivering the chips, the gave a check to Atari for $500,000 (from > Commodore) and went into breach of contract. If it wasn't for Atari > coming in late 83' with cash the chipset might not have seen the light > of day. > Hi Curt - I don't know, but in this tape they talk about the cash crunch, mention people getting 2nd mortgages to stay solvent - but they didn't say anything about breech of contract with Atari. Jack Tramiel bought Atari from Warner in 1984 - certainly he would have taken legal action to get the chips if he thought he had a case. You know, Mr. "Business is War". RJ talks a lot about Atari knowing they were in a bind and offering less than $1 / share, and working out a last minute deal w/ Commodore for $4.25, then paying off Atari. --Chuck From sheehan at sheehan.tzo.com Fri Mar 4 14:48:08 2005 From: sheehan at sheehan.tzo.com (Bill Sheehan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:48:08 -0500 Subject: Windows LFN's (HP NewWave) In-Reply-To: <1109966055.21167.36.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1109966055.21167.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Back in the day, I bought a copy of NewWave after reading a glowing review in one of the trade rags. As I recall, it was so slow you could get ahead of screen refreshes doing nothing more than typing. I still have the box sitting on my shelf, and one of these days I'm going to fire it back up again. -- Bill On Mar 4, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Just found the following snippet in a 1990 document (someone's review > of > a GUI show which they'd attended). Just struck me as interesting in > that > I never knew there was an alternative to 8.3 filenames in the > DOS/Windows world prior to Win95, nor have I ever heard of HP NewWave > before... > > Apparently also included macros/activity recording, associations > between > data and application (e.g. double-click on a spreadsheet file and it > opens in the spreadsheet app etc.), and context-sensitive help. Sounds > like a winner, only I've never even heard of it... > > Apologies to the original author (who almost certainly isn't on this > list!) for the cut & paste! > > (I do like that first line :-) > > ------- > > NewWave is a 'front end' to MSWindows to make them useable. It provides > a Filer facility which tarts up the MS-DOS filing system to enable 30 > character filenames with no obvious character set limitations (ie it'll > accept a space in the filename) and a framework to interchange and > combine multiple data types into one document. This framework manages > dynamic links between the document and the original object which is > contained in the document such that when the document is reconstructed > any changes to, say the spreadsheet data, get reflected in, say, the > report. Parts of foreign objects can also be imported with the same > results, eg a few rows and columns of a spreadsheet can be imported to > a > word processed document. > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 14:49:57 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:49:57 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304165110.90292.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> <024701c520d6$44038a20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <20050304165110.90292.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <4228C9F5.9090406@oldskool.org> willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > as 86-QDOS (Quick and Dirty OS). The initial purchase by Microsoft was > for $15,000 IIRC, but full rights to the OS were purchased later for a Total sum was $50,000, IIRC. > Tim Patterson was hired by Microsoft for a period of time. Yes, and while he didn't make his millions off of DOS, he certained did in the mid-1990s at Microsoft. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 14:51:37 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:51:37 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <422885AC.nail78M165WB0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> <422885AC.nail78M165WB0@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4228CA59.8020502@oldskool.org> shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >>You could make a case that CP/M was modeled after Unix, > > But that's obviously not the case. The lineage to DEC OS's (OS/8, DOS-11, > RT-11, and all of their predecessors) is obvious. I didn't say it would be a *strong* case :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 14:54:36 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:54:36 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304101758.I648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> Message-ID: <4228CB0C.7070608@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > But, throughout all my DOS years I used - as the switch character > which told MSDOS to use / as a directory character. In CONFIG.SYS: > > SWITCHAR=- That was barely honored outside of Microsoft-land (and sometimes not even). I would wager that less than 1% of all DOS command-line programs honor SWITCHAR. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Mar 4 14:58:31 2005 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:58:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <20050304153449.L58882@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> <20050304153449.L58882@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20050304155556.Y73061@wilma.widomaker.com> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, cswiger wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > The only problem I have with RJ Michaels talk is he completely rewrites > > history on Amiga's dealing with Atari, omits the fact that Amiga was > > desperate for cash in late 1983 and through one of the unspoken chip > > Hi Curt - I don't know, but in this tape they talk about the cash > crunch, mention people getting 2nd mortgages to stay solvent - but > they didn't say anything about breech of contract with Atari. Jack > Tramiel bought Atari from Warner in 1984 - certainly he would have > taken legal action to get the chips if he thought he had a case. > You know, Mr. "Business is War". RJ talks a lot about Atari knowing > they were in a bind and offering less than $1 / share, and working > out a last minute deal w/ Commodore for $4.25, then paying off Atari. > Just did a little research - appearently they DID go to court: from http://www.answers.com/topic/atari-st At about the same time, Amiga were desperate for a buyer or investor, and the "Warner owned" Atari had paid Amiga for development work (see: "TOP SECRET: Confidential Atari-Amiga Agreement" (http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/mickey.html)). In return Atari was to get one-year exclusive use of the design. By May Tramiel had secured his funding, bought the remains of Atari from Warner for a very low price, and set about re-creating his empire. When Tramiel took over the company he tried to leverage this and take ownership of the Amiga properties. Right under the noses of Atari, and at the 11th hour for Amiga, Commodore purchased Amiga lock, stock, and barrel. Tramiel was furious, and the resulting court case lasted for years. In the meantime this left Atari with an incomplete 16-bit design, while Commodore would soon have the best. --Chuck From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 4 15:02:09 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 16:02:09 -0500 Subject: Looking for some DEC stuff (again) Message-ID: <25e2bb825de652.25de65225e2bb8@optonline.net> > Looking for some DEC stuff for my private collection... New > Mexico, Texas, Arizona area preferably: > There is a massive collection up for grabs right in Dallas. It was mentioned here on the list recently. I would love to get in on the deal [for the PDP-8 stuff specifically], but the distance, size of the total lots, etc make this look impractical. FWIW: I was talking with the owners of the collection about a year ago. At that point they did not want to sell, but were suffereing major cash problems, these apparently have become "fatal". As far as I can tell (based on some long phone calls) the equipment has been fairly well treated. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 15:01:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:01:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <4228AB33.80903@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > One other thing I have done is to emulate the music card -- just a > single pole RC lowpass filter hooked up to the S-100 INT* line. The > "MUSIC" program would take a score and compile it into a program to > toggle the INT line to produce polyphonic music -- although the notes > aren't very well tempered as they get higher in frequency. It is pretty > impressive that it works as well as it does: > > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/d-minor.mp3 > > I recently upgraded PC's and now my own emulator doesn't run right and > the sound comes out only when I'm using the debugger. I guess it is > about to time spin a revision on the emulator. Very cool! Did you record this from the emulator or from an actual Sol-20? It sounds as good as what the Apple ][ could produce, which I suppose makes sense since it's generating sound using the same principal. How do I load and play the sound files? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 4 15:01:35 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:01:35 GMT Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Re installing XP on Sony" (Mar 4, 10:56) References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 4 2005, 10:56, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I think many don't realize the damage that can happen > when the group becomes a "Please fix my PC" group. > I watched this happen to a news group that had too many > people that tolerated such off topic post. From Jim's own > words, he thought that this was a general computer > group. It is not. [ snip ] FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Dwight, and well remember the newsgroup he means, having used it from 1994 until its eventual demise. Actually, it's still there - but has become an alt.fix.my.pc group. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 15:07:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:07:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <030420051850.9305.4228AE10000E72670000245922069997350603970A04040108@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Michael Holley wrote: > One thing that DOS got right is to retain the file date when > a file is copied to another directory. Um, not really. When you copy a file you're making a distinctly new file, and therefore it has a different creation date. If you MOVE it then that's another story. I guess it's how you look at it. Perhaps the CLONE command is what you really want :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 15:11:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:11:49 +0000 Subject: Bootstrapping kermit... D.G. Nova RDOS In-Reply-To: <20050304123053.Q648@localhost> References: <20050304123053.Q648@localhost> Message-ID: <1109970709.21167.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 12:39 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > The kermit source text is on my "terminal" linux laptop. I'm using > minicom. I need to do > > XFER/A $TTI KERMIT.FR > > on RDOS to input the text, but minicom blasts the text out too > fast. At least on my linux setup here, minicom uses /usr/bin/ascii-xfr to do ASCII transfers (which I assume is what you want in order to initially transfer kermit source to the Nova). Look under minicom setup (^A O) and then "File transfer portocols" Look at the man page for ascii-xfr - the '-c' flag allows you to specify the pause after sending each character, which sounds like what you want. Or the -l flag allows a delay after each line. Not quite the cleverness that you mention, but it should work. cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 15:15:23 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:15:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <4228CB0C.7070608@oldskool.org> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> <4228CB0C.7070608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304131120.E648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: >> But, throughout all my DOS years I used - as the switch character >> which told MSDOS to use / as a directory character. In CONFIG.SYS: >> >> SWITCHAR=- > > That was barely honored outside of Microsoft-land (and sometimes not even). > I would wager that less than 1% of all DOS command-line programs honor > SWITCHAR. Yeah, why use OS services? They just get in the way! From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 15:15:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:15:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <200503041946.LAA13258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have a program that plays "Daisy" on the Commodore 1541 disk drive(!) > > Miraculous. > > It does it by knocking the drive heads around. I have a DriveComposer archive > that will let you compose arbitrary music for the 1541 (imagine a whole > chorus of them ... ) ... couldn't be good for alignment, though. ooh, ooh! Copy, please ;) Never checked to see what it does to alignment but maybe I'll run some tests and fine out. A chorus sounds like a nice idea :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 4 15:29:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:29:22 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? References: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050303101928.K648@localhost> Message-ID: <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> Wow... I missed my opportunity to work on a big 2901-based Tom> realtime video system, I wanted to work on the thing but it was Tom> a big stinky military project, otherwise glad I turned it down. Tom> THe Nova 4's built with a variant though. DEC used 2901s in a bunch of places. The UDA50 is based on them, as is the VAX 730. I suspect there are a number of others... paul From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Mar 4 15:36:17 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:36:17 +0100 Subject: 11/45 progress Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135D0@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > Jay wrote about a DL11: > If I exam 776500, I get a 200, > but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all > zero's in the data register. I will dig up my notes getting characters in and out a M7800 in my 11/35 resurrection using the front panel several years ago. This is also an advice: make notes of *everything* you do on a system, no matter how trivial at this time. Changing a wire, trying some toggle in tests on the console, behaviour, measured voltages on pins, etc. If problems occur later you can go back and do all tests from your notes. That's why I can write my tests with the M7800 when I get home (in a few hours from now). - Henk, PA8PDP. These are a few of my notes. Console board: 2 versions. M7800 and M7800-YA M7800: Xtal = 4608 kHz, has 1448/1449 jumpers: A3,A4,A5,A7,A9 open: A6,A8,A10 base address = 776500 baudrate = 1200 Bd. M7800-YA: Xtal = 1152 kHz, no 1448/1449 (20mA current loop only) jumpers: A0,A7 open: A4,A5,A6,A8,A9,A10 base address = 777560 (console) baudrate = 1200 Bd. console registers: RCSR 777560 RBUF 777562 XCSR 777564 XBUF 777566 Hit the key "1" of the keyboard If RCSR contains 0200 it means that a character is received. To check this: 1) set the SR to 777560. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777560 3) press EXAM 4) the DATA LEDs show 000200 RBUF should contain 061 (ASCII "1"). To check this: 1) set the SR to 777562. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777562 3) press EXAM 4) the DATA LEDs show 000061 Load 065 in XBUF --> the screen should show a "5". Operation: 1) set the SR to 777566. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777566 3) set the SR to 000065 4) press DEP Simple test of the CPU. 1) set the SR to 777570 (the switch register address). 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777570 3) set the SR to 000777 (this is BRA . branch to myself) 4) press START The ADDRESS LEDs show 777572. CONSOLE LED is off, RUN, BUS, PROC LEDs are on. When you press HALT, CONSOLE LED goes on. - Henk, PA8PDP. From g at kurico.com Fri Mar 4 15:44:21 2005 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:44:21 -0600 Subject: FS: working MITS Altair 8800 & manual In-Reply-To: <000901c5202e$8c9fe240$5edb3fd0@r2p0s6> Message-ID: <20050304.YZH.37000000@192.168.1.207> OK, I know this will be way too low, but what the heck, you never know. $500. Thanks George Mike (dogas at bellsouth.net) wrote: > > Experiencing some financial difficulties and could use some $ *soon*... > > Its got a: > > MITS CPU rev 1 board ( with newer 8080 chip) > MITS 88-2 SIO rev 0 > SEALS 8K static memory > ??? Active Termination Board > > Missing the TOP Case Lid. Wiring is neat. The PS looks beefed up with a big > fan mounted on the Back Panel. The ON/OFF and second AUX toggles are broken > on the front panel but an ON/OFF toggle has been added to the back panel. > > Seems to be working. Pictures at: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Mit01.jpg > > From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Mar 4 15:47:49 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:47:49 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 15 Message-ID: <01C520D9.F9DB0640@H89.C223.tor.velocet.net> -----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:54:47 -0800 (PST) From: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Re installing XP on Sony The point is that if I went onto a PC mailing list and asked someone to help me troubleshoot my Commodore 64, I would probably be ignored, possibly even laughed off, and rightly so. So, even if it were true, which in my experience it isn't, does this mean that we have to be equally rude and condescending? Actually, in my experience the people on the PC & other lists I'm on tend to be quite helpful with off-topic questions if they can, or (nicely) suggest other resources if they can't. I would have thought that especially this list would be more mature and polite (as indeed many people here are, although they tend to be rather quiet). I always have to remind myself that there are a lot of other people on this list who don't say anything unless they actually have something useful to contribute. We have a very special mailing list here with a specific character, which is of great value to people in this hobby. If we allow really common, unextraordinary PC maintenance issues to be discussed any old time someone wants to bring them up even though there are an infinite number of tools and resources available only a few clicks away, we'll lose that unique character, and subsequently most of the people who currently inhabit this space who are valuable resources for the hobby. Well, actually I correspond with several people who used to be on this list and have/are valuable resources who have unsubscribed because of the amount of irrelevant garbage and the "attitude" on this list; I doubt that the occasional PC-related topic would have bothered them. I went through my email files from before I unsubbed a year or so ago to find people with whom I have unfinished business, and quite a few people who used to be useful contributors seem to no longer be heard from now that I'm back... It would be interesting to know how many actually unsubscribed, and why. Every person who unsubscribes because of the way they're treated or the amount of junk on this list is a lost potential resource. Folks have used the list in the past to ask PC related problems, but that has been in situations where they have already exhausted all other resources, or they are in a serious pinch and needed immediate information, and they always explain this. This has been a rare occurence as most people respect the character of the mailing list and its members. Jim's issue could've been answered after 5 minutes of Googling. So what? I ask and get asked lots of questions of/by people, and I've never said or heard "Don't bother me, look it up on Google!" As to the "character" of this list, it appears to be a place where you can talk and ask questions for days about just about anything, cars, guns, what have you, ignoring pleas to "finally get off this OT topic," as long as it's not about what many if not most of us actually have sitting in front of us, a PC-compatible, maybe even (God forbid) running a Microsoft product. Are you really afraid that if we do answer the occasional OT but computer-related question that we'll suddenly be deluged? Can't we (at least some of us) be a little nicer, especially to "outsiders" who may not be aware of our anal attitudes, or would that totally destroy the "character" of this list? mike From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 15:45:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:45:43 -0600 Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304154429.04567488@mail> At 02:07 PM 3/4/2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >The only problem I have with RJ Michaels talk is he completely rewrites history That's the RJ I know! :-) - John From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Fri Mar 4 15:55:01 2005 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:55:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Where to find Concurrent Maxion parts Message-ID: <3007.155.147.209.110.1109973301.squirrel@webmail0.neonova.net> Anyone know a source of Concurrent Maxion 9502 CPUs or parts thereof? Darren From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 4 15:54:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:54:58 +0000 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 21:01 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 4 2005, 10:56, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > I think many don't realize the damage that can happen > > when the group becomes a "Please fix my PC" group. > > I watched this happen to a news group that had too many > > people that tolerated such off topic post. From Jim's own > > words, he thought that this was a general computer > > group.> [ snip ] > > FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Dwight, and well remember the > newsgroup he means, having used it from 1994 until its eventual demise. > Actually, it's still there - but has become an alt.fix.my.pc group. Not alt.comp.homebuilt? I think I looked there a while ago and gave up when I saw how many PC posts there were. Plus comp.arch.hobbyist seems to be totally dead (I don't know if that one was ever any good). alt.folklore.computers is sort-of ok, but the thread length and topic drift is the worst I've ever seen of any newsgroup or mailing list, so reading is either a case of skimming through a ton of crap in a thread or missing out on potentially useful stuff :( As for this list... I don't know; I'm tempted to say there's no danger of it turning into a PC support list ever. Subscribing to the list is too much trouble for someone who doesn't have an interest in classic machines and who just wants PC support help. Usenet's a different story; it's easy to crosspost to a million groups whenever someone feels like it. And there *is* cctech for moderated posts after all, so the odd off- topic post to cctalk seems no big deal to me (now at least; if it was 50% of traffic it'd annoy me!). Believe me, gun posts drive me nuts and I have no desire to read them, but I just delete the occasional one that crops up :) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 15:52:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:52:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bootstrapping kermit... D.G. Nova RDOS In-Reply-To: <20050304123053.Q648@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > on RDOS to input the text, but minicom blasts the text out too > fast. I solved this problem in another world at another time by > writing a "text upload" that dynamically watched for character > echo and self-paced; is there anything like this around? Procomm Plus lets you adjust the outbound character rate. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 16:02:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone interested in an AT&T PC6300? No idea of the whereabouts. Contact original sender. See below: Reply-to: lkrupp at pssw.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:41:43 -0700 From: Louis Krupp To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H Any use for an AT&T PC 6300 and an AT&T CRT 318H? Louis From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Mar 4 16:10:25 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:10:25 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > > One other thing I have done is to emulate the music card -- just a > > single pole RC lowpass filter hooked up to the S-100 INT* line. The > > "MUSIC" program would take a score and compile it into a program to > > toggle the INT line to produce polyphonic music -- although the notes > > aren't very well tempered as they get higher in frequency. It is pretty > > impressive that it works as well as it does: > > > > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/d-minor.mp3 > > > > I recently upgraded PC's and now my own emulator doesn't run right and > > the sound comes out only when I'm using the debugger. I guess it is > > about to time spin a revision on the emulator. > > Very cool! Did you record this from the emulator or from an actual > Sol-20? It sounds as good as what the Apple ][ could produce, which I > suppose makes sense since it's generating sound using the same principal. > > How do I load and play the sound files? > The whole thing, along with a PDF of the manual is on his Sol software page: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/solpgms.html The manual includes the (very simple) schematic for the "interface". Now that I know that a VCF judge has pronounced it "Very cool!" I think I'll have my Sol running this at the next VCF East. ;-) Bill S. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 16:41:45 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:41:45 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <005b01c520ee$659954e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200503032327.37746.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005b01c520ee$659954e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:14:32 -0500, Heinz Wolter wrote: > The 730 was also the slowest VAX on the planet.. save the Microvax I. > They used the 2901s bit slice data path chip, but I'm not certain they used > the AM2910 usequencer. VHDL and verilog models ~are~ available for both > those chips. > I think though, it would be quite a bit of work to verbatim copy/translate > those schematics.. > Then you'd have to scarf the microcode from a 730 boot tape ;) > I can help there since I have both a working 730 and a boot tape! > btw - the pdp11/40 and VAX/780 have already been implemented on an FPGA! It is good to learn that this is already done. > > A better way would be to look at what this prof in Japan did -he's written a > complete working > pdp11/40 on a smallish altera fpga- - it even runs UNIX V6! and had an IDE > hd interface. > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html pictures here: > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11pics.html > here is the paper > http://csdl.computer.org/comp/proceedings/asp-dac/2004/2543/00/25430571.pdf > Get the files here: http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/ and note the VAX > 780 project announcement. > They show here that they are nearly complete on their VAX 780 on a chip > project. > Both the 780&11/40 are written in SFL - a nice but unpopular C-like HDL. > This PDP is not microcoded. > The tools are freely downloadable as well as the PDP11/40 source - so you > can play > on winblows and linux. I got both versions of the 11/40 to run but alas.. > they don't boot V6. > The makefile compiles SFL to verilog using a closed compiler SFL2VL written > by the prog. > It seems to run run fine on Icarus/verilog and simulate, but I have been > unable to > import that verilog successfully into Alteras or Xilinx's free software > targetting a spartan2. > Sad, as I wanted to use this as a front end to my PDP10 project written in > SFL;) As far > as PDP11s go - I'd be curious to try to implement an SFL WD1611/1621 and > runing LSI11 > microcode on an FPGA.. I can not wait to get a 780 in a chip. vax, 9000 > > regards > Heinz > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 4 17:55:18 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:55:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer Music (was Altair32) In-Reply-To: <19eed85c7c2675359ec34a5361fb6fa2@comcast.net> References: <200503041748.j24Hls5u084993@dewey.classiccmp.org> <19eed85c7c2675359ec34a5361fb6fa2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, CRC wrote: > However, the best use of music on computers was done by a friend who > received special treatment from the Cyber operators after playing Charge > on the high speed chain printers at the end of his job. Since he didn't > advance the paper the printing effectively cut the paper causing the > next several jobs to make an squirel's nest out of the insides of the > printer. I've been saving two card decks from around 1970, which when run on an IBM 1401, will play "She'll Be Comin' 'Round the Mountain" and "Anchors Aweigh" on the 1403 printer. Wasted a lot of paper, and annoyed a lot of operators. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 4 17:01:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:01:11 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: <16936.59575.74309.691909@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Steve" == Steve Jones writes: >> Not many people know this, but at low levels in old Mac OS, they >> used ":" as a folder separator in file specifiers. Steve> Let us say, "not many average Mac users." Though limiting it Steve> to "average XYZ users" leaves the named group open to Steve> accusations of all manner of ignorance and stupidity... ;^) Even in Mac OS X you can still see this -- various applications show colon-separated file names in the "recently opened files" list. MS Word, for example. Steve> So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path Steve> separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and Steve> uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any Steve> others at the moment. Can anybody think of any interesting Steve> ones? I can't remember what DomainOS did, but I remember it Steve> striking me when I learned of it. Mainframes? RTOSes? OS/360 didn't have any, because it didn't have directories. Same for various other operating systems, like CDC's. I forgot if Burroughs had them. TOPS-20: DEV:FILE.TXT.1 -- and VMS accepts that syntax too, or at least much of it (. for version separator, certainly). TOPS-10: DEV:[nnn,nnn]FILE.TXT (no version) -- RSTS and RSX and DOS ditto through RSX had octal numbers while RSTS and TOPS were decimal. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 4 17:04:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:04:13 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? References: Message-ID: <16936.59757.604005.288634@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "9000" == 9000 VAX writes: 9000> There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to 9000> create a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other 9000> than to design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we 9000> grab the VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them 9000> into an FPGA compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 9000> 750 with gate array, and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 9000> scheme might be the easiest to implement with an FPGA. You'd also need the microcode. The schematics will only give you the micro-engine. The microcode is what turns that into a VAX. I suppose you could do a VAX in hardwired logic, but that would be HARD given the instruction set. A bit easier if you use the minimum subset, I suppose. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 4 17:05:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:05:14 -0500 Subject: Open DEC digital equipment door without the key? References: Message-ID: <16936.59818.491935.326397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "9000" == 9000 VAX writes: 9000> I am curious about what is in the HSC70 but the the door is 9000> locked and the key is lost. There should be a PDP11 and several 9000> HD's inside, at far as I know. 9000> I think people on the list might know how to open the door 9000> without a key or force. The lock is not the round cylinder type 9000> found on a vax 4000. Is it a flat key lock? If so, that would be the "other" standard key that DEC used. I think it's a three pin lock -- you should be able to pick it with a paperclip. Alternatively, a drill will do wonders. paul From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 17:10:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:10:32 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227AE42.10901@oldskool.org> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4227AE42.10901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304181032.38aa07aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:39:30 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > Why not install something on-topic? It might be a nice Minix > > machine. Or 386BSD is old enough now. > > Or Coherent! > > (Just kidding -- Coherent can't recognize IDE drives over 540MB) > -- All my Coherent install media is all 5-1/4" HD diskettes. Haven't seen that on a portable in years. The point about IDE drives- I have been thinking of installing Coherent sometime soon. Is larger SCSI media better supported? At this point I am so awash in misc. PC hardware that I can 'cobble together' whatever I'd need to for setting up a Coherent system. Maybe this isn't that on-topic for the list though, and I should just look myself. . . From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 17:12:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:12:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 15) In-Reply-To: <01C520D9.F9DB0640@H89.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: Mike, I like you, but your method of replying to messages leaves a LOT to be desired. You intermingled my message with your replies. Use some software with a quoting feature, eh? On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote: > So, even if it were true, which in my experience it isn't, does this > mean that we have to be equally rude and condescending? I don't consider my response either rude or condescending. > Well, actually I correspond with several people who used to be on this > list and have/are valuable resources who have unsubscribed because of > the amount of irrelevant garbage and the "attitude" on this list; I > doubt that the occasional PC-related topic would have bothered them. I Oh really? You just said they left because of "the amount of irrelevant garbage". Do you really think they would also tolerate off-topic lame PC help messages? How do you presume to speak for them anyway? > So what? I ask and get asked lots of questions of/by people, and I've never > said or heard "Don't bother me, look it up on Google!" Hey, that's your right, being it's your private correspondance. This is a public mailing list. If some satan worshippers wanted to use your local public park for animal sacrifices and blood orgies, would you also be OK with that? Aside from the fact that it's their park too (as logn as they pay their taxes), it's still not very cool, is it? > As to the "character" of this list, it appears to be a place where you > can talk and ask questions for days about just about anything, cars, > guns, what have you, ignoring pleas to "finally get off this OT topic," > as long as it's not about what many if not most of us actually have > sitting in front of us, a PC-compatible, maybe even (God forbid) running > a Microsoft product. Are you really afraid that if we do answer the > occasional OT but computer-related question that we'll suddenly be > deluged? I have as much problem with any other off-topic messages as I do with PC related questions. PC related questions are especially obnoxious since, as I've already explained but which seems to be ignored no matter how many times I bring it up (maybe this time will be different), there are already thousands of other websites, forums, newsgroups, not to mention books and magazines in current print, where one can get help with their PC related problems. There are only a handful of areas where one can discuss vintage computing. Is it OK with you if we keep this mailing list from becoming another PC support group? > Can't we (at least some of us) be a little nicer, especially to > "outsiders" who may not be aware of our anal attitudes, or would that > totally destroy the "character" of this list? Jim is not a newcomer. He's been subscribed for half a year now (as far as I can tell) and he's been around during the previous two flame fests where we covered this issue ad nauseum/absurdum. He cannot claim ignorance, and niether should you. Read the FAQ: http://www.classiccmp.org/oldfaq.txt -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 17:18:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:18:57 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304181857.7489cde3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:20:07 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > I wonder -- would the response have been as unfavorable as if he were > asking how to install Linux or FreeBSD? :-/ > -- I have the 1993 Infomagic 'UNIX' CDROM that has 386BSD, pre 1.0 SLS Linux, and NetBSD 0.8 on it, to make your suggestion on-topic. I even have the full-AT footprint 16 MHz 80386 motherboard that it should be installed on. Actually, vintage Linux install media, i.e. the Infomagic CD, and the first Yggdrasil distro, are now on-topic (and probably quite rare and someday will be significantly value as a collectable) -Scott From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Mar 4 17:18:47 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:18:47 +0100 Subject: MousePads In-Reply-To: <16934.3998.585398.581729@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <016e01c51f56$3ff33880$06406b43@66067007> <16934.3998.585398.581729@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1109978327.14433.0.camel@fortran> On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 14:10 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that you might not > have seen... oriental rug mousepads. There's the Mouse Rug, but > that's a fake -- just an oriental pattern printed on a plain old > mousepad. But there are also woven rug type pads, which are far > nicer. > > I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Gorgeous. Great people, too. I got a persian one from IKEA :) It's a fake, of course. -- Tore S Bekkedal From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 17:24:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:24:32 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304182432.74899315.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:29:23 -0600 "David H. Barr" wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Jay West wrote: > > > The post was pretty far off-topic. This is cctalk, but playstation > > > tech support is pretty far off. > > > It's a 5-year-old computer, which the user is trying to upgrade an > > 8-year-old operating system. Was it necessary to jump on him? > > Sorry, to me (sole IT provider for a nonprofit organization) a 5 year > old computer running winXP is next years technology. MS-DOS 6.2(2) / > Windows 3.1(1) would have been about as far as I can stand having to > listen on a "classic" mailing list / forum / usenet group, and even > that's pushing it to some extent. > > I agree that perhaps we're a bit overzealous here at times, but there > -are- more appropriate forums for this sort of inquiry. Hopefully no > one's feathers get permanently bent out of joint, either by this > thread or by the metaphor cocktail I just created. > > -dhbarr. I would agree on the issue of 'support' questions for said OSes. However, I am one of those people who collects original installation media. While I'd never come to this list to bother people about operating issues for said OSes, I try to keep a 'full line' of original install media and manual sets for my collection. For instance I have complete PC-DOS 1.0, a complete Windows 1.03 package, CPM-86 box, WordStar 3.3, etc. In newer things, I have the 5-1/4" media set for Windows 95, which is fairly rare, etc. In this context, I think such matters might be considered on topic. Though discussing the pedigree of an original BSD distribution tape (if anybody here has such a thing) would obviously be more interesting. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 4 17:25:54 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:25:54 -0500 Subject: Open DEC digital equipment door without the key? Message-ID: <264034d263dd53.263dd53264034d@optonline.net> > 9000> I am curious about what is in the HSC70 but the the door is > 9000> locked and the key is lost. There should be a PDP11 and several > 9000> HD's inside, at far as I know. > > 9000> I think people on the list might know how to open the door > 9000> without a key or force. The lock is not the round cylinder type > 9000> found on a vax 4000. > > Is it a flat key lock? If so, that would be the "other" standard key > that DEC used. I think it's a three pin lock -- you should be > able to > pick it with a paperclip. > > Alternatively, a drill will do wonders. > And I have always used C-4...... From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 17:27:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:27:10 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050304182710.7237e6f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:40:51 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > >Why? Linux is less OT than Windows XP, at least in terms of age > >and ability to run on old hardware. > > > > > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. > Ben alias woodelf > > Almost the only 80386 hardware I still own is a really old full-AT motherboard, built with a few 40 pin 8xxx Intel chips, and otherwise, the same big bunch of TTL gates that are in a lot of old DEC hardware. Your point well taken, though. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 4 17:56:12 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:56:12 GMT Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Re installing XP on Sony" (Mar 4, 21:54) References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 4 2005, 21:54, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 21:01 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Mar 4 2005, 10:56, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > > > I think many don't realize the damage that can happen > > > when the group becomes a "Please fix my PC" group. > > > I watched this happen to a news group that had too many > > > people that tolerated such off topic post. From Jim's own > > > words, he thought that this was a general computer > > > group.> [ snip ] > > > > FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Dwight, and well remember the > > newsgroup he means, having used it from 1994 until its eventual demise. > > Actually, it's still there - but has become an alt.fix.my.pc group. > > Not alt.comp.homebuilt? I think I looked there a while ago and gave up > when I saw how many PC posts there were. Actually it's alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt, and it started as a group for people interested in building or modifying hardware in the sense of using a soldering iron or perhaps VHDL, but gradually newbies started appearing and asking about PCs they had "built" in the sense of sticking their ISA cards on a new motherboard. At first they got politely asked to try elsewhere, but quite quickly, first one or two, then more, other newbies started saying "well, it was a polite question, with a simple answer, so why not just answer it?" and in quite a short space of time the please-help-me-fix-my-PC brigade outnumbered the on-topic posters by 100:1. Various solutions were tried but too late and all failed; eventually all the regulars moved elsewhere. Some started a new group called comp.arch.hobbyist; maybe not the best choice of name. It gets about one post a week. On a good week. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Mar 4 17:57:52 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:57:52 -0600 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4228F600.50300@pacbell.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > > >>One other thing I have done is to emulate the music card -- just a >>single pole RC lowpass filter hooked up to the S-100 INT* line. The >>"MUSIC" program would take a score and compile it into a program to >>toggle the INT line to produce polyphonic music -- although the notes >>aren't very well tempered as they get higher in frequency. It is pretty >>impressive that it works as well as it does: >> >>http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/d-minor.mp3 ... > Very cool! Did you record this from the emulator or from an actual > Sol-20? It sounds as good as what the Apple ][ could produce, which I > suppose makes sense since it's generating sound using the same principal. > > How do I load and play the sound files? The web site has the MUSIC program that you can load into memory, and a number of scores that can either be loaded directly into memory or which can be "sourced" into the keyboard as if you had typed them (the cassette emulation would work too, but I didn't bother putting all of this on virtual cassettes because it is as painful to use as a real cassette). Once you load a score, you have to compile it (IIRC just type "S"), then you can play it ("P"). In the emulator control panel turn on sound; there are also three sliders for setting the volume of for the INT RC filter, for the fan noise, and disk noise. There is also a button for dumping the output to a .WAV file. One more thing to watch out for is that the program uses the 8b DIP switch settings to control the tempo; flip them all from what the emulator defaults them to (all on instead of all off, I think). I don't have a "sound card", although it would be trivial to make one. The sample is just captured from the emulator. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 4 17:59:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:59:30 -0500 Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <20050304153449.L58882@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304135728.R98308@wilma.widomaker.com> <4228C009.7060209@atarimuseum.com> <20050304153449.L58882@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <4228F662.70103@atarimuseum.com> ...and that's exactly what had happened, on August 13, 1984 Atari filed breach of contract against Amiga, the suit was settled in a closed agreement in 1987. Also Warner had to adjust the sale price to the Tramiels for Atari since they Amiga chips were part of the sale to Tramiel Technologies, Limited. Curt cswiger wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >>The only problem I have with RJ Michaels talk is he completely rewrites >>history on Amiga's dealing with Atari, omits the fact that Amiga was >>desperate for cash in late 1983 and through one of the unspoken chip >>designers - Joe Decuir, who also was on Jays team at Atari who did the >>final production version of the Atari 2600 and the Atari 800 Amiga met >>with Atari and signed into an agreement with Atari for $500,000 to help >>Amiga complete its chipset and on June 30th 84 they were supposed to >>deliver working silicon to Atari's offices under a contract that Atari >>would produce its own line of Lorraine chipset products. Instead of >>delivering the chips, the gave a check to Atari for $500,000 (from >>Commodore) and went into breach of contract. If it wasn't for Atari >>coming in late 83' with cash the chipset might not have seen the light >>of day. >> >> >> > >Hi Curt - I don't know, but in this tape they talk about the cash >crunch, mention people getting 2nd mortgages to stay solvent - but >they didn't say anything about breech of contract with Atari. Jack >Tramiel bought Atari from Warner in 1984 - certainly he would have >taken legal action to get the chips if he thought he had a case. >You know, Mr. "Business is War". RJ talks a lot about Atari knowing >they were in a bind and offering less than $1 / share, and working >out a last minute deal w/ Commodore for $4.25, then paying off Atari. > >--Chuck > > > > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 4 18:01:38 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:01:38 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <16936.59757.604005.288634@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16936.59757.604005.288634@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4228F6E2.3080705@atarimuseum.com> I still think, a PC with simh and a PCI to Qbus adapter to allow the use of Qbus peripherals that is more at hobbyist cost levels is a far better solution, I wish the companies current selling those $2,500-$3,000 cards would reduce their costs to more in line with a $500 range, I 'm sure a lot of us would buy cards and they'd make it up in quantity of sales. Curt Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"9000" == 9000 VAX writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > 9000> There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to > 9000> create a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other > 9000> than to design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we > 9000> grab the VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them > 9000> into an FPGA compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the > 9000> 750 with gate array, and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 > 9000> scheme might be the easiest to implement with an FPGA. > >You'd also need the microcode. The schematics will only give you the >micro-engine. The microcode is what turns that into a VAX. > >I suppose you could do a VAX in hardwired logic, but that would be >HARD given the instruction set. A bit easier if you use the minimum >subset, I suppose. > > paul > > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 4 18:10:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:10:27 -0000 (GMT) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <2271.192.168.0.3.1109981427.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 13:36 -0500, Steve Jones wrote: >> So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path >> separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and >> uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any others >> at the moment. > > Acorn's DFS is :drive.dir.filename - but dir can only be a single > character (and directories can't be nested). > > What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? Nope at least on PETs etc, you only had the root directory of a disk to play with. The ICL DRS20 I used at college had $drive-directory.filename for syntax, so a typical file was $0-foo.prog.cbl. I think. Bear in mind I've not touched a DRS system for 20+ years :) Is there a full DRS20 at BP? I know the terminal is there but is the big twin floppy box? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 18:11:04 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:11:04 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> > > > What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? > Commodore 64/1541 disk drive did not. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 17:58:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 17:58:42 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304175555.04d2c158@mail> At 01:45 PM 3/4/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? Which Commodore machines? I don't recall folders on Pet or C-64 drives, but on the Amiga, it inherited some weirdisms from Tripos, like "/foldername" didn't mean the "foldername" off root, but meant instead "up a folder, then down into foldername". On Mar 4, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >Just found the following snippet in a 1990 document (someone's review of >a GUI show which they'd attended). Just struck me as interesting in that >I never knew there was an alternative to 8.3 filenames in the >DOS/Windows world prior to Win95, nor have I ever heard of HP NewWave >before... I seem to remember an odd pre-Win DOS shell that did that, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 4 18:08:55 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:08:55 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304180404.04d48de0@mail> At 12:36 PM 3/4/2005, Steve Jones wrote: >But I imagine anybody who ever looked at developing software for >the Mac very quickly discovered this when they learned that - uhm, >was it ADPA? The earlyish development environment for the Mac - >included a shell, and you could see the filesystem more directly. The APDA CDs did have a shell like that, I once used it to port my 3D conversion software. I had to find a way to make 'makefiles' that would compile the code on several platforms: Amiga, 32-bit DOS, Windows, SGI and Linux. And I did. It was also tricky to write a filepath parser that could handle paths of any type and be able to re-write them with the destination path's type, on a platform that used neither type. So my software could read an SGI model on an Amiga and write out PC-style filename paths, for example. But I think I first saw the colon separators in Mac Pascal code for DECnet. I once helped port Thursby's TSSnet from Mac to Amiga. - John From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 4 18:11:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:11:41 -0800 Subject: Open DEC digital equipment door without the key? References: <16936.59818.491935.326397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>> "9000" == 9000 VAX writes: > > 9000> I am curious about what is in the HSC70 but the the door is > 9000> locked and the key is lost. There should be a PDP11 and several > 9000> HD's inside, at far as I know. > > 9000> I think people on the list might know how to open the door > 9000> without a key or force. The lock is not the round cylinder type > 9000> found on a vax 4000. > > Is it a flat key lock? If so, that would be the "other" standard key > that DEC used. I think it's a three pin lock -- you should be able to > pick it with a paperclip. I believe I have a stock of these (with keys), if you want one. Might come in handy if you use the drill (or C4) option. Vince From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:22:33 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:22:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050304161209.X98716@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I'm not asking, but others are: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/03/msdos_paternity_dispute/ HARUMPHH! "DOS" means Disk Operating System. Which includes, but is absolutely NOT limited to MS-DOS/PC-DOS. Only people whose first (and only?) computer was an "AT" would assume that "DOS" means MS-DOS/PC-DOS! The first operating system that I can think of that was NAMED "DOS" was for the IBM 360. Doesn't ANYBODY remember personal computers such as Apple and TRS-80, with prompts such as "DOS READY"? TRS-DOS was written by Randy Cook. Sorry. Who wrote Apple-DOS? MS-DOS/PC-DOS was written by Tim Patterson, but was basically CP/M (by Gary Kildall) MS-DOS/PC-DOS originally had few, if any, similarities to UNIX. But MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 was a rewrite in the hands of UNIX oriented programmers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Mar 4 18:32:06 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:32:06 +0100 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1109982726.14433.4.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 09:40 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > >Why? Linux is less OT than Windows XP, at least in terms of age > >and ability to run on old hardware. > > > > > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. > Ben alias woodelf Actually, Linux will run on an 8086, nowadays, completely without memory management as an embedded OS :) I vaguely remember seeing a page about running Linux on the Tosh 1000 :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 18:35:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> > "well, it was a polite > question, with a simple answer, so why not just answer it?" Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 18:52:04 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:52:04 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> I thought it was Gore... or was that the internet??? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 18:55:47 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:55:47 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain><10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01b701c5211e$1320a850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Some time ago I posted the definition of on-topic/off-topic that I'm using for both cctech and cctalk. Until (and if) the majority of commonplace computing changes from the Windows paradigm to something very different, XP will not be on topic. Period. However, that being said - given that the poster wasn't a "drive by" I think the ones of us who got our "panties in a bunch" about the post would have been much more agreeable with an "OT" flag in the subject. Can we move along and put this behind us please? Jay West From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 4 19:03:10 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:03:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Mar 4, 5 01:15:53 pm" Message-ID: <200503050103.RAA15794@floodgap.com> > > > I have a program that plays "Daisy" on the Commodore 1541 disk drive(!) > > > Miraculous. > > It does it by knocking the drive heads around. I have a DriveComposer > > archive that will let you compose arbitrary music for the 1541 (imagine a > > whole chorus of them ... ) ... couldn't be good for alignment, though. > ooh, ooh! Copy, please ;) > Never checked to see what it does to alignment but maybe I'll run some > tests and fine out. > A chorus sounds like a nice idea :) It's a Lynx archive. If others want it, please ask (or I might just post it to comp.binaries.cbm for those with Usenet access). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- IBM is not a necessary evil. IBM is not necessary. -- Ted Nelson ----------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 19:06:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:06:02 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32886.64.169.63.74.1109951046.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <021401c5211f$803e0c60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > It's a UART. Unless you wire it for loopback, you normally won't read > back the same data you wrote. Yeah, it's a UART. But I assumed you wrote data to a register, then wrote data to a different register to strobe the data out, etc. So I figured the first register was just a temporary buffer that would hold it's contents until replaced by data in the opposite direction. My bad. I'll look up the test loopback adapter wiring. Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 4 19:10:59 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:10:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Mar 4, 5 07:45:00 pm" Message-ID: <200503050110.RAA15656@floodgap.com> > What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? W/r/t the 8 bits, it depended on the disk drive you attached it to. None of the 5.25" drives did. The 1581 supported "partitions" which with a bit of software help could be coerced into looking like subdirectories. The computers themselves, since they have no DOS per se, don't care. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Mar 4 19:10:42 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 02:10:42 +0100 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1109985042.14433.8.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 19:52 -0500, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I thought it was Gore... or was that the internet??? Gah, let the man rest, it was actually the press's fault (hey, Evan! :P). What he said was completely correct and barely an overstatement. He never claimed to have invented the Internet, he claimed to have pushed the funding forward in the White House... Which he did! -- Tore S Bekkedal From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 19:08:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:08:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <4228F600.50300@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Battle wrote: > The web site has the MUSIC program that you can load into memory, and a > number of scores that can either be loaded directly into memory or which > can be "sourced" into the keyboard as if you had typed them (the > cassette emulation would work too, but I didn't bother putting all of > this on virtual cassettes because it is as painful to use as a real > cassette). It's also included in the ZIP file with the full simulator :) > Once you load a score, you have to compile it (IIRC just type > "S"), then you can play it ("P"). In the emulator > control panel turn on sound; there are also three sliders for setting > the volume of for the INT RC filter, for the fan noise, and disk noise. Ok, got it working. It helps to RTFM. This is so wonderful! I'd have to say the sound is even better than what you could get out of the Apple ][. At best the Apple ][ could be made to do 2 voices nicely. Thanks for scanning the MUSIC manual. Jim, you have one of the *best* vintage computing preservation websites on the web. Your page is simply phenomenal, along with all the effort you put in to develop the simulator, scan all the hardware/software manuals, digitize all the software tapes, assemble all the software for download, etc. I've had the simulated fans running in the background all day. It adds a nice atmosphere to my office :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 19:09:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:09:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <4228F662.70103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > ...and that's exactly what had happened, on August 13, 1984 Atari filed > breach of contract against Amiga, the suit was settled in a closed > agreement in 1987. > > Also Warner had to adjust the sale price to the Tramiels for Atari since > they Amiga chips were part of the sale to Tramiel Technologies, Limited. "Business is war." ;) I have no sympathy for Tramiel. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 18:35:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:35:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 3, 5 09:40:44 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, found the jumpers for the DL11 in the schematics section on bitsavers. I > have two M7800's, one is set for 777560 and one is set for 776500. OK, a farily standard pair of addresses. The former is the console port. > > I'm assuming that when a card is jumpered so (the high bits are constant > anyways), that it appears exactly at that address no matter how much memory > is installed in the machine (ie. it doesn't move around based on maxmem). Absolutely. > > Anytime I exam 777560 I get an address error. If I exam 776500, I get a 200, Odd... That implies your console card is not responding. Maybe it's defective too. > but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all zero's in the data > register. You shouldn't be able to read/write all 16 bits -- some of them plain don't exist in the heardware, some are read-only. But IIRC there's at least one bit (my memory is weak on this, but I think it's the interrupt enable bit, maybe bit 6) that you should be able to read and write from the panel. My idea was going to be to hang a terminal off the card (assuming you have an RS232 lead and can decode the word foramt and baud rate settings [1] and then try writing to the transmit data registers at 777566 or 777656. See if you can transmit chracters to the terminal. [1] The baurd rate is set by a rotary switch on the card and by the frequency of the crystal fitted. I found the quickest way to work it out was to connect a frequncy counter to pin 17 (Rx clock) and 40 (Tx clock) of the UART chip. Then divide that frequency by 16 to get the baud rate. But I guess you don't have a frequency counter sitting on top of your machine... > > Methinks the problem wasn't memory, but something amiss in the cpu section. So do I. > Bummer as I have no spare cpu cards. But I guess at this point I still don't I am going to get you to repair that machine properly -- without swapping boards -- even if I have to get on the next p'lane across the Pond and show you where to stick your 'scope probe ;-) > know if it's a unibus problem or a cpu problem. > > Something else I noticed is the terminator cards in front and back as well > as the cpu backplan to MF11-L had what I would think is a lot of "up down > wiggle" in them. I'm quite sure they are seated completely, but I can turn > them up or down more than I would think one should be able to. Is that > common? You have got them in the right way round, with the resistors towards the front of the machine, I hope! If not, you will have all sorts of problems. > > Hopefully sage listemembers can offer some advice as to where to go next :) Ge ta Unibus pinout, grabe the logic probe, and see if the data lines ever go low on a CPU (frontpanel) write operation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 19:05:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:05:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Mar 4, 5 04:29:22 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> Wow... I missed my opportunity to work on a big 2901-based > Tom> realtime video system, I wanted to work on the thing but it was > Tom> a big stinky military project, otherwise glad I turned it down. > > Tom> THe Nova 4's built with a variant though. > > DEC used 2901s in a bunch of places. The UDA50 is based on them, as > is the VAX 730. I suspect there are a number of others... They also turn up in some PDP11 floating point cards (I think the one for the 11/34, for example). AFAIK no PDP11 CPU ever used the 2901. 74(S)181s and separate register chips were generally used there. And the RX02 floppy drive has a couple of 2901s and a few 2909 sequencers I don't recall seeing a 2910 in anyting DEC. I have seen 3rd party 'RX02 compatible controllers for SA800 drives' that have a pair of 2901s and a 2910 on them Classic PERQs didn't use the 2901 at all, but did (alas [1]) use the 2910 sequencer for the CPU microcode and also for the state machine 'microcode' for the ethernet and hard disk interfaces. [1] Alas because the 2910 is strictly a 12 bit sequencer, it can't really be extended. Fine for the origianl PERQ 1 (4K control store), but all later classic PERQs had a 16K control store. A handful of TTL and a couple of PALs wree used to provide the top 2 bits, a circuit which I named the '2 bit kludge', pun totally intentional. As I mentioned a few days back, the PERQ 3a used a pair of 29116s in the graphics processor. One to calculator main memory addresses, one to modify the gragphics data. The Xerox Daybreak seems to have 4 off 2901s in the CPU, with a custom Xerox sequncer chip. And the HP9845 that currently fills my bench has the high-speed language processor option. That contains 4 off 2901s and a 2910 sequencer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 4 18:50:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:50:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304103646.C648@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 4, 5 10:44:45 am Message-ID: > * Bunch of extended, or is that expanded? memory (could never remember > which stupid marketing euphemism was which) It's easy to remember : exPanded memory is Paged -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 19:25:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:25:22 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304131120.E648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> <4228CB0C.7070608@oldskool.org> <20050304131120.E648@localhost> Message-ID: <42290A82.9080503@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: >> That was barely honored outside of Microsoft-land (and sometimes not >> even). I would wager that less than 1% of all DOS command-line >> programs honor SWITCHAR. > > Yeah, why use OS services? They just get in the way! Don't blame us! It's not like there was a lot of documentation* or published standards or anything. Hell, a common way to figure out how to work the machine in the early days was by loading programs into DEBUG! * for people without money to buy it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 19:25:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:25:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304161209.X98716@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304161209.X98716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <54703.64.139.41.130.1109985946.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Fred wrote: > Who wrote Apple-DOS? Steve Wozniak and Randy Wigginton wrote the low-level disk routines, named "RWTS" (Read-Write Track & Sector). The File Manager, BASIC interface, and dsik backup utility were contracted to Shepardson Microsystems and written by Paul Laughton. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 19:26:18 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050304172537.U98716@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I thought it was Gore... or was that the internet??? The internet invented DOS??? From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 19:28:39 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:28:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050303101928.K648@localhost> <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050304172738.H648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > DEC used 2901s in a bunch of places. The UDA50 is based on them, as > is the VAX 730. I suspect there are a number of others... Just photo'd some D.G. boards... the floating point card has fifteen (15) 2901's on it. Ouch! There goes the power budget! From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 19:29:14 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:29:14 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <01b701c5211e$1320a850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain><10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> <01b701c5211e$1320a850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42290B6A.5010809@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Can we move along and put this behind us please? Most certainly, if we can live and let live. But I will not hesitate to point out hypocrasy if it happens again, what with the other types of OT commonly found here (such as gun talk, what germany was doing in WWII, and the scores of other OT stuff that I don't mind because it is an UNMODERATED list). At least this OT was computer-related... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 19:30:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:30:46 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050304181032.38aa07aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4227AE42.10901@oldskool.org> <20050304181032.38aa07aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42290BC6.2010308@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > The point about IDE drives- I have been thinking of installing Coherent > sometime soon. Is larger SCSI media better supported? At this point I > am so awash in misc. PC hardware that I can 'cobble together' whatever > I'd need to for setting up a Coherent system. Maybe this isn't that > on-topic for the list though, and I should just look myself. . . If talking about a 80286 Unix-like OS isn't on topic for the UNmoderated list, then we need a serious charter readjustment. Your best bet on getting Coherent to run on anything nowadays is to post in comp.os.coherent; search the archives for a few chunky bits, such as the developer who has patched his distro to support IDE drives up to 8192MB. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 4 19:32:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:32:04 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <1109982726.14433.4.camel@fortran> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org><00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <1109982726.14433.4.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <42290C14.8080605@oldskool.org> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > Actually, Linux will run on an 8086, nowadays, completely without memory > management as an embedded OS :) > > I vaguely remember seeing a page about running Linux on the Tosh 1000 :) That's the ELKS project, which promptly went inactive as soon as they got something cobbled together. A much better bet for running *nix on 8088 hardware is Minix. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 19:34:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:34:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20050304173351.F648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: >> What about Commodore machines - did they support directories at all? > Commodore 64/1541 disk drive did not. CP/M-80 2.xx up had USER numbers. Anyone ever find a real use for it? Besides losing files? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 19:35:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:35:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: References: <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Mar 4, 5 04:29:22 pm Message-ID: <55191.64.139.41.130.1109986502.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tony wrote: > I don't recall seeing a 2910 in anyting DEC. I have seen 3rd party 'RX02 > compatible controllers for SA800 drives' that have a pair of 2901s and a > 2910 on them IIRC the UDA50, KDA50, and HSCxx channel cards each have two of them, along with four 2901s. All are based on the same microengine design. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 19:39:03 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:39:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304165110.90292.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <42287E39.2070207@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304094657.04538ad0@mail> <024701c520d6$44038a20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <20050304165110.90292.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <20050304173234.X98716@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > Tim Patterson was hired by Microsoft for a period of time. He wrote a good description of some of the design decisions as a magazine article in DDJ. He also had a company called "Falcon Technologies?" Either his company, or SCP, ALSO had rights to MS-DOS. Which company was it: When it was in financial straits (~1987?), a number of biggies were interested in buying just to get rights to MS-DOS. MS sued to block sale, but then changed their minds and simply outbid the other buyers. I've always maintained that Novell's purchase of DRI wasfor the sole purpose of owning the CP/M copyright, to protect themselves from MS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 19:41:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:41:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <42290A82.9080503@oldskool.org> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <20050304101758.I648@localhost> <4228CB0C.7070608@oldskool.org> <20050304131120.E648@localhost> <42290A82.9080503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304174118.C648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: >>> That was barely honored outside of Microsoft-land (and sometimes not >>> even). I would wager that less than 1% of all DOS command-line programs >>> honor SWITCHAR. >> >> Yeah, why use OS services? They just get in the way! > > Don't blame us! It's not like there was a lot of documentation* or published > standards or anything. Hell, a common way to figure out how to work the > machine in the early days was by loading programs into DEBUG! > > * for people without money to buy it :-) Well that's perfectly true. It all seems so haphazard in retrospect. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 4 19:42:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:42:55 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42290B6A.5010809@oldskool.org> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain><10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> <01b701c5211e$1320a850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42290B6A.5010809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42290E9F.5080907@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> Can we move along and put this behind us please? > > > Most certainly, if we can live and let live. But I will not hesitate to > point out hypocrasy if it happens again, what with the other types of OT > commonly found here (such as gun talk, what germany was doing in WWII, > and the scores of other OT stuff that I don't mind because it is an > UNMODERATED list). At least this OT was computer-related... In other words, we're not done beating the horse yet. Doc From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 19:49:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? In-Reply-To: <20050304172738.H648@localhost> References: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20050303101928.K648@localhost> <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050304172738.H648@localhost> Message-ID: <55714.64.139.41.130.1109987340.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tom wrote: > Just photo'd some D.G. boards... the floating point card has > fifteen (15) 2901's on it. Ouch! There goes the power budget! Hah! DEC used sixteen (16) 2901s on their floating point boards for later PDP-11 models and a few VAXen. The designs of the floating point options for the 11/23 and 11/24 (FPF11, M8188), 11/34 (FP11-A, M8267), 11/44 (FP11-F, M7093), and VAX 11/725 and 11/730 (FP730, M8389) are all fairly similar. Eric From allain at panix.com Fri Mar 4 19:49:34 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:49:34 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: Message-ID: <00b701c52125$95d073a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Who invented DOS? On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: > > There's plenty of geek haggling at Slashdot, natch: > > http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 > > These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 or so. > Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? What CP/M easter egg? That ensuing discussion lacks any useful detail. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 19:55:15 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <20050304173351.F648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> <20050304173351.F648@localhost> Message-ID: <56138.64.139.41.130.1109987715.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tom wrote: > CP/M-80 2.xx up had USER numbers. Anyone ever find a real use for > it? Besides losing files? Certainly! We used them for different user's files. It was a little clunky but it mostly worked. Eric From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Mar 4 19:58:06 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:58:06 -0800 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9435b1ac7fe108377ae4c65d0c6372d4@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for > replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? > I'd answer that, if I knew what you were talking about. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 20:04:37 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:04:37 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <02df01c52127$b056b200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Odd... That implies your console card is not responding. Maybe it's > defective too. Kinda what I figured :) >But IIRC there's at > least one bit (my memory is weak on this, but I think it's the interrupt > enable bit, maybe bit 6) that you should be able to read and write from > the panel. Ah ok, good thing I printed off those engineering notes. I'll track down the interrupt enable bit and try that. > My idea was going to be to hang a terminal off the card (assuming you > have an RS232 lead and can decode the word foramt and baud rate settings > [1] and then try writing to the transmit data registers at 777566 or > 777656. See if you can transmit chracters to the terminal. I have the appropriate cable from the card to mate & lock, I'll cobble something together to go from that to a terminal. I thought you were saying just to read/write to that register. I'll decode the rest of the settings on the board (other than the register address) including the crystal, and hook up a terminal. > [1] The baurd rate is set by a rotary switch on the card and by the > frequency of the crystal fitted. I found the quickest way to work it out > was to connect a frequncy counter to pin 17 (Rx clock) and 40 (Tx clock) > of the UART chip. Then divide that frequency by 16 to get the baud rate. > But I guess you don't have a frequency counter sitting on top of your > machine... Well, as of now, my HP 5315A counter is sitting on top of it :) I'll make the measurements tomorrow. I'm glad you said that, because I noticed the rotary switches for TX & RX speed settings weren't labled (1-10) on the card. This way I can be sure. However, my usual question follows... if I connect to 17 and 40 (separately of course), what is the ground reference location for those measurements? I never seem to know where to hook the other lead :\ In this case, if I can find a pinout for the UART, I'm sure that would be a good spot for ground. > I am going to get you to repair that machine properly -- without swapping > boards -- even if I have to get on the next p'lane across the Pond and > show you where to stick your 'scope probe ;-) I'm willing to learn, travel won't be necessary, just an informed instructor :) > You have got them in the right way round, with the resistors towards the > front of the machine, I hope! If not, you will have all sorts of > problems. Yes, component side of all boards is towards the front, including the two terminators. > Ge ta Unibus pinout, grabe the logic probe, and see if the data lines > ever go low on a CPU (frontpanel) write operation. If I can get some 11/45 time this weekend, I will do just that. Thanks! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 20:14:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:14:04 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony References: <20050303181012.38304742.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4227AE42.10901@oldskool.org><20050304181032.38aa07aa.chenmel@earthlink.net> <42290BC6.2010308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <02ff01c52129$02996430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > If talking about a 80286 Unix-like OS isn't on topic for the UNmoderated > list, then we need a serious charter readjustment. Oh Pahleeze people.... my joke about banning for talking about Linux, in reference to Linux & FreeBSD, was based on my obvious and well-known preference for FreeBSD over Linux. I apologize if my levity wasn't obvious :) Also, "UNmoderated" doesn't equate to "anything goes". I've said that before. If you want to revise the list charter, feel free to email me. Jay From allain at panix.com Fri Mar 4 20:19:32 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:19:32 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >>> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 >> >> These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 >> or so. >> Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? > > What CP/M easter egg? That ensuing discussion lacks any useful detail. For people who haven't read it, here's what it said: "IIRC, Killdall stood up in court and entered a keystrokes at a PC running MSDOS and brought up an easter egg he had programmed into CP/M years earlier, proving they had used his code." What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. Here's another account: http://dfarq.homeip.net/article.php?story=935 "Back in the mid-1990s, PC Magazine columnist John C. Dvorak wrote something curious about this operating system. He said he knew of an easter egg present in CP/M in the late 1970s that caused Kildall's name and a copyright notice to be printed. Very early versions (presumably before the 1.0 release) of DOS had this same easter egg." John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 20:26:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <9435b1ac7fe108377ae4c65d0c6372d4@sbcglobal.net> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> <9435b1ac7fe108377ae4c65d0c6372d4@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20050304182301.I98716@shell.lmi.net> > On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for > > replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: > I'd answer that, if I knew what you were talking about. It was primarily a rhetorical question, ridiculing the posting of off topic questions. The S600 and S800 were sports cars that Honda made in the 1960s, that were not sold in the U.S. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 20:24:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <00b701c52125$95d073a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Eh? Speak up! On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: Who invented DOS? > > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: > > > > There's plenty of geek haggling at Slashdot, natch: > > > http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/2329228&tid=190&tid=123 > > > > These articles say that Kildall's CP/M easteregg appears in DOS 1.0 or so. > > Has anyone here actually run the proof for themselves? > > What CP/M easter egg? That ensuing discussion lacks any useful detail. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 20:32:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:32:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> John wrote: > What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. The story is apocryphal. No one has ever been able to cite the actual details because it never happened. If it had happened, it would be possible to get a court transcript. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 20:36:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:36:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050304182724.T98716@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: > For people who haven't read it, here's what it said: > "IIRC, Killdall stood up in court and entered a keystrokes at a PC > running MSDOS and brought up an easter egg he had programmed > into CP/M years earlier, proving they had used his code." > What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. > Here's another account: http://dfarq.homeip.net/article.php?story=935 > "Back in the mid-1990s, PC Magazine columnist John C. Dvorak wrote > something curious about this operating system. He said he knew of an > easter egg present in CP/M in the late 1970s that caused Kildall's name > and a copyright notice to be printed. Very early versions (presumably > before the 1.0 release) of DOS had this same easter egg." I suspect that it might be very well be a corruption of the story about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, that showed up in NewDOS prior to NEWDOS80. That one really DID exist. RS, in TRS-DOS 2.3, changed "Randy Cook" in the easter egg to "Tandy Corp". It was invoked by running a boot file as if it were a program, with one of the master paswords, and pressing 'J'? and 'N'? while it was loading. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 4 20:44:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:44:16 -0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <4228F6E2.3080705@atarimuseum.com> References: <16936.59757.604005.288634@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4228F6E2.3080705@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 7:01 PM -0500 3/4/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >I still think, a PC with simh and a PCI to Qbus adapter to allow the >use of Qbus peripherals that is more at hobbyist cost levels is a >far better solution, I wish the companies current selling those >$2,500-$3,000 cards would reduce their costs to more in line with a >$500 range, I 'm sure a lot of us would buy cards and they'd make it >up in quantity of sales. And how many Hobbyists spend $500 on a SCSI card for their PDP-11, or $500+ on a decent Alpha to run OpenVMS on? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 20:47:22 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:47:22 EST Subject: picking locks Message-ID: I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on the lock with a tool (screwdrivers are not the best tools to use, as they can dent/flatten the lock noticeably, but in absence of a better tool they work.) Put the screwdriver in, apply pressure, stroke the lock pins with the pick. If you're really into it, you grind and temper a thin tool with a bump at the end. The computer locks I've seen (excl. IBM Medeco) don't need this, though.' -Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Mar 4 20:47:21 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:47:21 EST Subject: directory structure on DOMAIN/OS Message-ID: <1e4.36614bda.2f5a77b9@aol.com> In which environment? Powered up Phaeton, from both SysV and Aegis the user-look was //{system_name}/directory/directory/file maybe underneath it's different, but that's what "pwd" and "wd" show Rock On -Scott Quinn From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 20:48:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:48:48 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:57:29 -0500 (EST), cswiger wrote: > All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for > directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). My recollection of that is that Paul Allen took "credit" for the directory pathname char choice ( (MS-DOS 1.0 didn't have sub-directories, so it surely wasn't Tim Patterson). I also have a dim memory that he apologized to the world for it and promised never to do it again. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 20:49:15 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304182724.T98716@shell.lmi.net> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20050304182724.T98716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <58066.64.139.41.130.1109990955.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Fred wrote: > I suspect that it might be very well be a corruption of the story > about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, that showed up in NewDOS > prior to NEWDOS80. That one really DID exist. RS, in TRS-DOS 2.3, > changed "Randy Cook" in the easter egg to "Tandy Corp". It was > invoked by running a boot file as if it were a program, with one > of the master paswords, and pressing 'J'? and 'N'? while it was loading. That's much more believable. I worked at Apparat, but by the time I started there they were already shipping NEWDOS/80. The original NEWDOS (up through NEWDOS 2.1?) was a patched version of TRSDOS. I don't know whether they originally were secretive about that, but for at least the latter part of the time they sold it, they told customers that they must have a copy of TRSDOS in order to buy NEWDOS. Since Radio Shack would sell you a TRSDOS floppy (only, no manual) for under $15, it wasn't a big issue. NEWDOS/80 V1 was a complete rewrite from the ground up, and added many new capabilities. It was available in separate editions for the Model I and Model III. V2 added even more nice features. The author of NEWDOS/80 (and the earlier patches to TRSDOS) was a long-time IBM mainframe programmer. Based on research I did a few years ago, I believe he was also one of the programmers of the software for the Apollo Guidance Computer. He was adamant that we not give out his name as he wanted to protect his privacy. Eric From wacarder at usit.net Fri Mar 4 20:49:06 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:49:06 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <02df01c52127$b056b200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > > Odd... That implies your console card is not responding. Maybe it's > > defective too. > Kinda what I figured :) I have a few spare M7800s if you want to borrow one. Ashley From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 20:52:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Scott wrote about picking locks: > I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used > dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on Or just buy a set of lock picks. They're not expensive. I think I paid under $15 for a reasonably nice set. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 20:54:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:54:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050304184906.N98716@shell.lmi.net> > > What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > The story is apocryphal. No one has ever been able to cite the > actual details because it never happened. If it had happened, it > would be possible to get a court transcript. It is doubtful that it exists. The story is such an exact match to the easter egg in TRS-DOS 2.x (that really DOES exist), that the story is almost certainly a corruption of the TRS-DOS story, unless Randy Cook got the idea from Gary Kildall? There is also a [presumably apocryphal] story of the TRS-DOS easter egg being used in court. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 4 20:55:43 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:55:43 -0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <005b01c520ee$659954e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200503032327.37746.pat@computer-refuge.org> <005b01c520ee$659954e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: At 2:14 PM -0500 3/4/05, Heinz Wolter wrote: >A better way would be to look at what this prof in Japan did -he's written a >complete working >pdp11/40 on a smallish altera fpga- - it even runs UNIX V6! and had an IDE >hd interface. >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html pictures here: OK, this is seriously cool, and it's the first time that I've heard about this project. I'll have to take a good look at this and update my Emulation website to contain information about this (I've got an FPGA section that covers all FPGA implementations of DEC CPU's that I'm aware of). >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11pics.html >here is the paper >http://csdl.computer.org/comp/proceedings/asp-dac/2004/2543/00/25430571.pdf >Get the files here: http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/ and note the VAX >780 project announcement. >They show here that they are nearly complete on their VAX 780 on a chip >project. >Both the 780&11/40 are written in SFL - a nice but unpopular C-like HDL. >This PDP is not microcoded. >The tools are freely downloadable as well as the PDP11/40 source - so you >can play >on winblows and linux. I got both versions of the 11/40 to run but alas.. >they don't boot V6. I'm wondering if they don't have a modified Unix V6 to handle the HD, or are they emulating a known DEC Drive? Any idea what it would take to boot something like RSTS/E, or RSX-11M+ on this? >Sad, as I wanted to use this as a front end to my PDP10 project written in >SFL;) As far Your what project? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From paulpenn at knology.net Fri Mar 4 21:04:38 2005 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:04:38 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apple I article References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050301150341.06f46df8@localhost><3.0.6.32.20050301163617.009ce310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00b101c52130$11a7e5d0$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Tom wrote: > Here's my own description of the book , > which goes into a bit more detail than you'll find most places. Two questions: 1. Do you sell PC boards to build these? I poked around on the site but didn't find any. 2. Do you know if anyone has brought up an Apple 1 running a 6800 CPU? Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Mar 4 21:15:02 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:15:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: PING Fred Van Kempen, Ed Sharpe Message-ID: Anyone having any contact with Fred or Ed, or who can possibly get a message to either of them - it would be a Good Thing for either (or both) of them to get in touch with me ASAP.. Thanks! Cheers John From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Mar 4 21:56:10 2005 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:56:10 -0800 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <9435b1ac7fe108377ae4c65d0c6372d4@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <82824466-8D2A-11D9-8E52-000502453125@eoni.com> On Friday, March 4, 2005, at 05:58 PM, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for >> replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? >> > > > I'd answer that, if I knew what you were talking about. > But I can answer it... S800 = old Honda sports car Keihin carbs = what is probably the stock carburators for the above. DCOE = A real carburator. Jetting sizes? Without knowing what size chokes one has installed, One cannot even guess. Kinda like asking, "What size power supply should I use on my VAX?" Not enough information.... If it was a serious question, pmail me and we can get you close. On the question of the appropriateness of the original question... It woulda taken less effort to answer the guy pmail and be done with it that the argue about it for a week. (Which we're going to do anyway... Fun reading!) Jim "We need a revolution." "Keep saying that and we'll need a lawyer, assuming they let us have one." Jan Steinman From cctech at randy482.com Fri Mar 4 21:58:30 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:58:30 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <02d201c52137$9c0bbce0$8a3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Eric Smith" Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:32 PM > John wrote: >> What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. > > The story is apocryphal. No one has ever been able to cite the > actual details because it never happened. If it had happened, it > would be possible to get a court transcript. > > Eric The source to CP/M is freely available and well understood, it's not there. It does make a good story though, even though it's not true ;-) Randy From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 22:11:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:11:27 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <03df01c52139$66fe9520$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Nah, thanks though. I'm ok as long as I have at least one working. I'll have to just fix the other one sometime! Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 8:49 PM Subject: RE: 11/45 progress >> > Odd... That implies your console card is not responding. Maybe it's >> > defective too. >> Kinda what I figured :) > > I have a few spare M7800s if you want to borrow one. > > Ashley > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 22:08:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:08:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503030005.QAA19351@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > Made a mistake and left out part of the pointer. > The first one should have been: > > http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/assembly/bios_data_area.html > > Hope this didn't cause any great confusion. > Dwight > > PS Thanks to Robert Greenstreet for pointing this out. Ok, so I used debug to change the byte at 50:22 from DF to D1. No go. I then tried D0: no go. I can only assume I'm doing something wrong. Has anyone ever actually successfully hooked an 8" drive to a PC controller and gotten it to work? If so, who is that person? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 22:19:12 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42290B6A.5010809@oldskool.org> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain><10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> <01b701c5211e$1320a850$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42290B6A.5010809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050304201402.H648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> Can we move along and put this behind us please? > > Most certainly, if we can live and let live. > [...] > At least this OT was computer-related... I am sorry to extend this even one message, others can have the last word, but I'd like to observe that contemporary computer repair is unique and different than guns, German WWII, etc and other threads, all admittedly off-topic and many of which I participated in. It's not logically unique, but culturally unique; there's no "slippery slope" regarding guns/WWII, but there *is* one involving WinXP et al. Rabbits, motorcycles are so wildly OT (though most of them start tangentially related, eg. IBM, Germany in WWII) that it's clear it's OT; getting XP going on old (but not on-topic) computers is too close to the raging storm of generic computer inanity that it pisses off people more qualitatively. I think Sellam was a bit rude, but hey, that's what we keep him in here for :-) (if you know zmodem) oo From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 22:19:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:19:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <200503030005.QAA19351@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <32935.64.169.63.74.1109996386.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote: > Has anyone ever actually successfully hooked an 8" drive to a PC > controller and gotten it to work? If so, who is that person? Yes, Al Kossow and I both have. We are using a Qume half-height drive. Works fine. Eric From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 22:22:15 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:22:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <56138.64.139.41.130.1109987715.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> <20050304173351.F648@localhost> <56138.64.139.41.130.1109987715.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050304202107.J648@localhost> > Tom wrote: >> CP/M-80 2.xx up had USER numbers. Anyone ever find a real use for >> it? Besides losing files? On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Certainly! We used them for different user's files. It was a little > clunky but it mostly worked. Users? Your computers had users?! MP/M? From tyger69 at chartermi.net Fri Mar 4 22:23:40 2005 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:23:40 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? References: <200503050250.j252oWkv095823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006101c5213b$1eb08880$0200a8c0@cablemodem> I suspect that it might be very well be a corruption of the story about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, that showed up in NewDOS prior to NEWDOS80. That one really DID exist. RS, in TRS-DOS 2.3, changed "Randy Cook" in the easter egg to "Tandy Corp". It was invoked by running a boot file as if it were a program, with one of the master paswords, and pressing 'J'? and 'N'? while it was loading. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ------------------------------ That's funny, because the first time I heard the story a few years back, it was a lawsuit between AT&T and SCO over the rights to unix. (Or was it MicroSoft and Xenix...???) Should this discussion be moved to the urban legend mailing list? --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! -- Timothy Leary From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 4 22:37:13 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:37:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <006101c5213b$1eb08880$0200a8c0@cablemodem> References: <200503050250.j252oWkv095823@dewey.classiccmp.org> <006101c5213b$1eb08880$0200a8c0@cablemodem> Message-ID: <20050304203459.E98716@shell.lmi.net> > I suspect that it might be very well be a corruption of the story > about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, that showed up in NewDOS > prior to NEWDOS80. That one really DID exist. On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Terry Yager wrote: > That's funny, because the first time I heard the story a few years back, it > was a lawsuit between AT&T and SCO over the rights to unix. (Or was it > MicroSoft and Xenix...???) Should this discussion be moved to the urban > legend mailing list? I have invoked the easter egg in TRS-DOS 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, and NewDos 2.1. Have you seen such an easter egg in any other OS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 22:37:15 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:37:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050304202413.Y648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: >> What CP/M easter egg? That ensuing discussion lacks any useful detail. > > For people who haven't read it, here's what it said: > > "IIRC, Killdall stood up in court and entered a keystrokes at a PC > running MSDOS and brought up an easter egg he had programmed > into CP/M years earlier, proving they had used his code." > > What we're trying to figure out is the keystrokes and the MSDOS version. > > Here's another account: http://dfarq.homeip.net/article.php?story=935 > > "Back in the mid-1990s, PC Magazine columnist John C. Dvorak wrote > something curious about this operating system. He said he knew of an > easter egg present in CP/M in the late 1970s that caused Kildall's name > and a copyright notice to be printed. Very early versions (presumably > before the 1.0 release) of DOS had this same easter egg." Ahh... that does reveal a bit. I, and I'm sure many, translated programs from 8080/z80 to 8086 with a text editor 'search and replace'. Clearly this was Intel's intent and it worked fine; the first thing I translated was my EPROM debugger/boot code. (It obviously required hand coding too to make it work but the bulk of hard-won code was ported.) So if you disassembled 8080 binary, mechanically translated the resulting source to 8086, that would preserve the easter egg. (Man would that be one ugly program.) It seems entirely likely that Kildall's hack (algorithmically obscured text within the code somewhere) would only be preserved by some sort of mechanical translation. It's doubtful an honest re-write even with listings side by side would result in it being preserved. There are few enough CP/M binaries that the sources of which could contain such things. CCP did not become COMMAND.COM, that is clear, it's totally different. MSDOS/CPM kept the same "BDOS::BIOS" relationship, jumptables and all, but MSDOS (and 86DOS) have a totally different filesystem, so the directory and block-management stuff is unlikely to contain the egg. I bet some puzzling would work out a list of the few places where text would be brought to console out (the implication of the accounts above). If this were the case, I bet I (and many others) could identify mechanically translated code by looking at it but (1) I'm rusty and (2) I don't really give a shit, I'll wait to enjoy someone else's work. Gotta be 86DOS or MSDOS 1.25. The first 86DOS I wrote a BIOS for was version (oh so clever) 0.86. It was basically 8086 CPM 1.4. Then there was a 1.10 I think. From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 4 22:38:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <57602.64.139.41.130.1109989925.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050304203745.M648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > The story is apocryphal. No one has ever been able to cite the > actual details because it never happened. If it had happened, it > would be possible to get a court transcript. D'OH! Of course!! What he says. Never mind... From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 4 22:45:21 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <20050304202107.J648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> <20050304173351.F648@localhost> <56138.64.139.41.130.1109987715.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <20050304202107.J648@localhost> Message-ID: <33001.64.169.63.74.1109997921.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tom wrote: > CP/M-80 2.xx up had USER numbers. Anyone ever find a real use for > it? Besides losing files? I wrote: > Certainly! We used them for different user's files. It was a little > clunky but it mostly worked. Tom wrote: > Users? Your computers had users?! MP/M? No, plain ol' CP/M. We had lots of users. Just not more than one at any given instant. Eric From cctech at randy482.com Fri Mar 4 22:50:16 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:50:16 -0600 Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <002e01c5213e$d752e470$8c3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:08 PM > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> Made a mistake and left out part of the pointer. >> The first one should have been: >> >> http://members.tripod.com/~oldboard/assembly/bios_data_area.html >> >> Hope this didn't cause any great confusion. >> Dwight >> >> PS Thanks to Robert Greenstreet for pointing this out. > > Ok, so I used debug to change the byte at 50:22 from DF to D1. No go. I > then tried D0: no go. I can only assume I'm doing something wrong. > > Has anyone ever actually successfully hooked an 8" drive to a PC > controller and gotten it to work? If so, who is that person? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I've done it and have never had any trouble. I use a Compaq P100 since it handles FM & a Mitsubishi 1/2 height 8" drive. I've only used it with 22disk, Teledisk, and Anadisk. They all work fine but 22disk has to be v1.41, later versions do not work with 8" drives. A few things to remember when dealing with classic disks on PC's: Use a real DOS not a DOS window. Make sure drive is OK (clean it & run RPM tests). Make sure your computer handles the format, 8" drives use the same data transfer rate as PC HD drives and standard PC controllers (8 bit 360K controllers) will not handle 8" drives. Most PC controllers don't handle FM. Get 22disk v1.41 and try some 8" MFM formats (format, write, read back). Only try FM (such as SSSD) after you have MFM working. Double check your cable. The TG43 signal can be ignored until you have a problem. No matter what the first half of the disk should always be OK. I am working on creating a page with drive info similar to Herb Johnson's but more oriented to cleaning and hooking up to PC's. Here are a couple of links to check out: http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/8-525.html http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/model16_6000/floppyfix.html The TG43 signal is used by truly old 8" drives. Most 8" drives ignore it. The problem was handles by having "smarter" floppy drives. Early 8" drives were built with discrete logic and mediocre heads later they used LSI chips and better heads. The newer 8" drives "knew" when to change the head current rather than relying on the host controller. If you have trouble with the outer tracks (it is a writing problem) then you can buy a board from dbit to generate the TG43 signal. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 4 23:01:09 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:01:09 -0500 Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42293D15.1010907@atarimuseum.com> Neither do I, I can assure you, I have no liking for many things he and his sons did to Atari... It just would've been interesting to see, if the company hadn't of been sold for say another 6 months, just what might've changed: The 1450XLD computer would've been released The 1090XL Expansion chassis would've been released along with the CP/M module, 80 column module and several other cards. The Atari 7800 would've been released in 1984 instead of 1986 and with GCC's top notch coders at the helm, the games were impressived and would've continued. and then there is the Amiga chipset, would Amiga have pulled the same stunt if Warner had stayed at the helm, would the 1850XL based on Lorraine have been released and I have engineer notes taking about "advance game system based on Amiga chipset" Imagine a gaming platform in 1985 with the power of the Amiga behind it, it would've been like having NEO GEO 10 years earlier. Now where did I put that time machine.... ;-) Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >>...and that's exactly what had happened, on August 13, 1984 Atari filed >>breach of contract against Amiga, the suit was settled in a closed >>agreement in 1987. >> >>Also Warner had to adjust the sale price to the Tramiels for Atari since >>they Amiga chips were part of the sale to Tramiel Technologies, Limited. >> >> > >"Business is war." ;) > >I have no sympathy for Tramiel. > > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 4 22:59:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:59:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <32935.64.169.63.74.1109996386.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > Has anyone ever actually successfully hooked an 8" drive to a PC > > controller and gotten it to work? If so, who is that person? > > Yes, Al Kossow and I both have. We are using a Qume half-height > drive. Works fine. D'oh! I have a Qume (I think) half-height but it has a funky (6 pins) power connector. I have another one (maybe that's the Qume model?) that has a wholly non-standard data connector. I also have a subsystem with 2 MPI Model 42 half-height drives. I tried that but could not get it to work at all (heads would not engage, though the drives did seem to select). I have no data on them so I had to give up. I'm sure I have some more but I ran out of time to look. Will try again tomorrow... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Mar 4 23:12:09 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 21:12:09 -0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1109999529.10562.0.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 23:08 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > There are many "soft CPUs" around. I wonder how hard it is to create > a soft VAX CPU core that can be load into an FPGA. Other than to > design from scratch, I think it might be easier if we grab the > VAX-11/780, 750, or 730 schematics, and throw them into an FPGA > compiler. The 780 was implemented with TTL, the 750 with gate array, > and 730 with AMD 2901. I think the 730 scheme might be the easiest to > implement with an FPGA. > > So, does anybody have the 730, 750 or 780 schematics? No, I do not > plan to start the project. I just want to make sure whether it is > feasible. Thank you. I have full schematics for 11/780 and 11/785. -- TTFN - Guy From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 4 23:33:00 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:33:00 -0800 Subject: test Message-ID: <200503042133.00105.lbickley@bickleywest.com> test -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 23:38:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:38:58 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:01:35 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: > FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Dwight, and well remember the > newsgroup he means, having used it from 1994 until its eventual demise. > Actually, it's still there - but has become an alt.fix.my.pc group. I am also in complete agreement. I will be one of the first people to unsub if this list turns into a discussion about modern machines and modern operating systems. There are *numerous* options for that. There are very few resources like this one for ancient machines; don't pollute it. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 4 23:49:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:49:12 -0700 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050304163239.M98716@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42294858.5040900@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>"well, it was a polite >>question, with a simple answer, so why not just answer it?" >> >> > >Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for >replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? > > > Build a vintage 1897 horseless buggy from scratch ... May be off topic but at least you have spare parts since you you built them yourself. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 5 00:00:44 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:00:44 -0800 Subject: test Message-ID: <200503042200.44304.lbickley@bickleywest.com> test -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 00:03:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:03:32 -0600 Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I changed two things on the list setup tonight. 1) To subscribe to the list (new subscribers, not you guys), requires not only a confirmation email, but also list owner approval. I'm having way to much trouble with "people?" joining the list and all their email immediately bouncing. It gums up the speedy delivery for everyone else. 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, then again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't unsubscribe you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get you unsubbed. But it won't try to send you any given list post more than twice now. Same reason as above. For those sendmail inclined.... I considered setting up a secondary queue for slow delivery where any emails that take longer than X time get moved to a low priority queue. Quite frankly, I don't want to deal with it. I'd just get more complaints about posts being out of order ;) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 00:04:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:04:05 -0600 Subject: test References: <200503042200.44304.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <049301c52149$23441200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You're loud & clear now Lyle :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "classic list" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 12:00 AM Subject: test > test > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 00:22:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:22:14 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <4228C8F9.5040701@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <4228C8F9.5040701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:45:45 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Well linux is still 386+ stuff. Old PC hardware is pre 386+. > > 18-year-old 386 machines are too "new" to discuss on this list? I think these fall under the category of machines that cause the periodic re-evaluation of the 10 year limit. They are clearly modern machines, and unless you can pick out a specific model that happens to have some historical importance, are severely lacking in "classicalness". The day is rapidly approaching when Windows 95 is ten years old (I was wintering-over at the time, missing the offical launch, but I know it's soon), but that doesn't mean that when the day approaches, we should immediately carpet-bomb the list with Windows 95 questions. It's not that the equation "2005 - 1995 == 10" is false, it's that once upon a time, ten years was a sufficiently accurate rule of thumb to separate the wheat from the chaff of our discussions that it was a useful metric to avoid sliding into the "alt.fix.my.pc" abyss. If we have to, I'm in favor of *explictly* listing off-topic things in "the charter", including XP, firearms, vehicles, etc, and listing things in such strong terms that _when_ someone is told "that's not on topic", they have *no* excuse to complain that they thought it was OK. My 2-centidollars. -ethan From fernande at internet1.net Sat Mar 5 00:30:01 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 01:30:01 -0500 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <422951E9.8050106@internet1.net> Jay, Doesn't that mean that now you have to approve them before all their email from the list bounces? I don't see how that will help unless you plan to personally email all would be new list members. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > I changed two things on the list setup tonight. > > 1) To subscribe to the list (new subscribers, not you guys), requires > not only a confirmation email, but also list owner approval. I'm having > way to much trouble with "people?" joining the list and all their email > immediately bouncing. It gums up the speedy delivery for everyone else. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 00:36:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:36:59 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <63988.64.139.41.130.1109964765.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <63988.64.139.41.130.1109964765.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:32:45 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > XP won't run on pre 386 stuff. I'm not sure it will even run > on a 386, but Linux definitely will. I don't know about the instruction set (if XP requires Pentium instructions or not), but I'd be surprised if there were any 386s that could be stuffed with enough memory to run XP (or RedHat 9, for that matter). By the time you get to 486s and 64 meg 72-pin SIMMs (yes... I do have machines with them, c. 1995, ex-CompuServe 32-bit nodes, no less), you _can_ stuff enough memory in them to run operating systems from 2005... the question that immediately follows is whether or not ones peripherals have modern drivers (yes... I have run into _that_ recently as well, with *5* year-old hardware, throwing out a *PCI* sound card because it wasn't supported). -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 00:27:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503050638.BAA00765@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 > minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, > then again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. > [...] But it won't try to send you any given list post more than > twice now. How does a 421 greeting banner fit into this? Does that count as one of those two rejections? If so, I need to set my subscription nomail and subscribe another address, so as to get saner queueing behaviour. (Otherwise, I'll lose list posts at busy times; any attempt to open a connection from a host which already has a connection open draws a 421. But if you're giving up on retries, that rather badly breaks the assumptions underlying SMTP, and I care enough about list mail to be willing to go to some minor lengths to keep it useful to me.) > For those sendmail inclined.... I considered setting up a secondary > queue for slow delivery where any emails that take longer than X time > get moved to a low priority queue. Quite frankly, I don't want to > deal with it. I'd just get more complaints about posts being out of > order ;) If that really is the concern, maybe make it a per-user option? I'd certainly turn it on, and can deal with resulting reordering - but if the actual reason is something more like "I don't have the time/energy to figure out how to do this" and your comment is just humour, never mind; I'll just do the other-address dance I sketched above. If we can work out a way to feed it reliably, I'd be willing to host an exploder sub-list for people who want more conventional retry behaviour (and are willing to accept the resulting re-ordering potential), with the resulting queue management becoming my problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 00:34:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > I changed two things on the list setup tonight. > > 1) To subscribe to the list (new subscribers, not you guys), requires not > only a confirmation email, but also list owner approval. I'm having way to > much trouble with "people?" joining the list and all their email immediately > bouncing. It gums up the speedy delivery for everyone else. How about also sending a copy of the FAQ to new subscribers? I know it's not much (I swear I'll put time into updating it if I ever get some free time) but it's something. > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 minutes. > This means the server will try to send email to you once, then again 30 > minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't unsubscribe > you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get you unsubbed. But > it won't try to send you any given list post more than twice now. Same > reason as above. Can you please change that to something like 3 times with 2 hour intervals? Or at least allow it to try more than twice. This still doesn't help someone who has a 24 hour server outage thanks to their stupid ISP (like I've been experiencing lately). > For those sendmail inclined.... I considered setting up a secondary queue > for slow delivery where any emails that take longer than X time get moved to > a low priority queue. Quite frankly, I don't want to deal with it. I'd just > get more complaints about posts being out of order ;) This solution sounds preferable to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 00:40:31 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:40:31 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: >> I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used >> dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on > >Or just buy a set of lock picks. They're not expensive. I think I >paid under $15 for a reasonably nice set. Depending on where you are, owning a lock pick set may be illegal if you do not have a reason to own one. Last I knew, lock pick sets were illegal to own in NJ unless you are someone that has a "legal" use for one. Of course, since legal use isn't really defined, it leaves it pretty wide open. (It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, as well as carry a center punch... again, unless you have "legal" reasons for the above... of course, being a volunteer firefighter seems to get me past the legal requirements for all of the above... so naturally I own all the above... and carry a center punch in my car most all the time, as well as a lock pick set in my tool bag) Of course, IANAL, and I could be mistaken on the laws, or the exact forms of them... but it is a heads up for those that may be planning to purchase a lock pick set and run around with it in their back pocket... they should just verify that they are allowed to do such before they find themselves being accused of being a terrorist ;-) -chris From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 00:40:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:40:29 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422951E9.8050106@internet1.net> Message-ID: <04be01c5214e$3b5d8ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Chad wrote... > Doesn't that mean that now you have to approve them before all their email > from the list bounces? I don't see how that will help unless you plan to > personally email all would be new list members. No, it means I have to approve their subscription before it is activated. That means there's no list traffic going to them to bounce until I do so. And yes, I'm considering a personal email to each new list member, and expecting a response. That will keep the automated tools out. Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 01:03:34 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Chris wrote: > Last I knew, lock pick sets were illegal to own in NJ unless you are > someone that has a "legal" use for one. Of course, since legal use isn't > really defined, it leaves it pretty wide open. I own more than one hundred locks, and sometimes I can't find the key to open one. In some cases, I purchase equipment with locks but no keys. So I think I have an entirely legitimate use for lock picks. Whether a court would agree is an open question. > (It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, Contradicted by the Communications Act of 1934, which being Federal law should override it. > as well as carry a center punch... Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, I carry it. For that matter, I routinely have a bolt cutter in my car, and I suppose an overzealous police officer might try to contrue that as a burglar tool, but I can cite multiple occasions when I've had a legitimate use for it. Eric From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Mar 5 01:19:49 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 05 07:19:49 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 minutes. > This means the server will try to send email to you once, then again 30 > minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. I think this is totally unfair and unacceptable. This means that if a mail server is having even a slightest bit of downtime (hardware failure, scheduled maintenance, whatever) that lasts more than 35 min, then all users of that mail server lose their mail?! MS From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 5 01:24:36 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:24:36 -0800 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> While the Federal Communications Act permit the reception of radio signals by scanners, shortwave radios, etc. - there are exceptions to that privilege in both federal and state laws. They typically fall into the following categories: It is illegal to listen in on cellular and cordless phone calls. It is illegal to intercept encrypted or scrambled communications. It is illegal for scanner manufacturers to sell or import radio scanners that are capable of receiving cellular phone frequencies. (Note: This rule does not apply to sales by individuals and radio scanners made before 1985). It is illegal to modify radio scanners so that cellular phone frequencies can be received. It is illegal to use information you hear for personal gain. A common example is where a taxi driver listens to a competitor's dispatch channel for fare pick-ups and then races over and picks-up the fares. It is illegal to use information you hear to aid in the commission of a crime. It is illegal to disclose information you hear to other persons. If you're really curious, here's a URL summarizing the laws on the subject matter: http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/rules.shtml Lyle KF6ZGI On Friday 04 March 2005 23:03, Eric Smith wrote: > Chris wrote: > > Last I knew, lock pick sets were illegal to own in NJ unless you are > > someone that has a "legal" use for one. Of course, since legal use isn't > > really defined, it leaves it pretty wide open. > > I own more than one hundred locks, and sometimes I can't find the key to > open one. In some cases, I purchase equipment with locks but no keys. > So I think I have an entirely legitimate use for lock picks. Whether a > court would agree is an open question. > > > (It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, > > Contradicted by the Communications Act of 1934, which being Federal > law should override it. > > > as well as carry a center punch... > > Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police > scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But > why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one > routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, > I carry it. > > For that matter, I routinely have a bolt cutter in my car, and I suppose > an overzealous police officer might try to contrue that as a burglar > tool, but I can cite multiple occasions when I've had a legitimate use > for it. > > Eric -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Mar 5 01:29:51 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:29:51 -0800 Subject: picking locks References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> Eric Smith wrote: > Scott wrote about picking locks: > > I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used > > dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on The MIT Lockpick guide recommends going out after a street sweeping machine has been by and look in the gutter for the bristles that break off the brushes. New bristles are not as good as used ones, because the metal wears down thin just before it breaks off. It is very hard and ideal for the material to fab the picks from. this is just from reading. I never pick locks, I go around to the back door, which is usually unlocked and go in there. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 01:37:26 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 02:37:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200503050738.CAA01013@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > While the Federal Communications Act permit the reception of radio > signals by scanners, shortwave radios, etc. - there are exceptions to > that privilege in both federal and state laws. [...] > If you're really curious, here's a URL summarizing the laws on the > subject matter: [...] Um, people...please try to remember that the net in general, and this list in particular, is international. As in, "the laws" aren't the same everywhere. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 01:39:28 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:39:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <33204.64.169.63.74.1110008368.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Lyle wrote: > While the Federal Communications Act permit the reception of radio signals > by scanners, shortwave radios, etc. - there are exceptions to that > privilege in both federal and state laws. All the exceptions you listed are part of Federal law. By what authority can a state make it illegal for me to receive a transmission which federal law allows? Eric From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 5 02:03:24 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:03:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bootstrapping kermit... D.G. Nova RDOS In-Reply-To: <1109970709.21167.48.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050304123053.Q648@localhost> <1109970709.21167.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050304235314.W648@localhost> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > At least on my linux setup here, minicom uses /usr/bin/ascii-xfr to do > ASCII transfers (which I assume is what you want in order to initially > transfer kermit source to the Nova). Look under minicom setup (^A O) and > then "File transfer portocols" > > Look at the man page for ascii-xfr - the '-c' flag allows you to > specify the pause after sending each character, which sounds like what > you want. Or the -l flag allows a delay after each line. > > Not quite the cleverness that you mention, but it should work. Oh, it's plenty clever enough to work first time! THanks a million! It's a general problem, talking to old machines through the console without any flow control protocol. So far, I've been extraordinarily lucky with this machine. It took some doing to get fortran4 working, but fortran5 I just copied in and it seems to work. Downloaded Kermit from the U. Columbia site. Made by someone at RCA using RATFOR, which outputs D.G. FORTRAN5 source. ALl I've got's the resulting .fr source. No documentation. I set a 20mS delay after every character sent in ascii-xfr in minicom. I sent the file twice and FILCOM'ed, the same. Errors compiling on fortran4, so I drag out the fortran5... compiled first time! (THe data collection system that was the purpose of this machine used fort5, so it's less surprising that all the files were on the tapes; apparently fort4 wasn't used). Linked the obj with libraries ok. the save file runs, but is silent; Nothing Happens. COntrol-A to abort fine. I need to debug it, which will be somewhat ugly. Now to go write MORE in fortran4, which doesn't really like string variables. Then I need GREP... From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 5 02:12:14 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:12:14 +0000 Subject: OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <422969DE.6020805@gjcp.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Chris wrote: > >>Last I knew, lock pick sets were illegal to own in NJ unless you are >>someone that has a "legal" use for one. Of course, since legal use isn't >>really defined, it leaves it pretty wide open. > > > I own more than one hundred locks, and sometimes I can't find the key to > open one. In some cases, I purchase equipment with locks but no keys. > So I think I have an entirely legitimate use for lock picks. Whether a > court would agree is an open question. > > >>(It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, > > > Contradicted by the Communications Act of 1934, which being Federal > law should override it. > > >>as well as carry a center punch... > > > Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police > scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But > why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one > routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, > I carry it. Yeah, what's the thinking behind that? > For that matter, I routinely have a bolt cutter in my car, and I suppose > an overzealous police officer might try to contrue that as a burglar > tool, but I can cite multiple occasions when I've had a legitimate use > for it. I usually have a pretty comprehensive toolbox in the back of my car (I drive old Citroens, which need a lot of servicing, and I often get called upon to rescue my friend's BMWs and Mercs ("Hey, why not get a nice new reliable German car to replace that Citroen?" - "Well I'll ask you that next time I tow yours home..."). Centre punch, cordless drill, Citroen Special tool BFH-14 (Big, um, *Friendly* Hammer, 14lb), boltcutters, hacksaws, sockets, spanners, screwdrivers, that kind of stuff. If I was insane enough to move to New Jersey, I suspect the police would have a field day. Of course, their sniffer dogs may well be, erm... "adversely affected" by sniffing in the boot of the car - brake cleaner, carb cleaner, contact cleaner, screenwash, engine oil, gearbox oil, diff oil, suspension hydraulic oil, hydraulic flushing fluid and cleaning solvent might just be a tad overwhelming for the poor beast. Oh, and I think there's a pair of my old hiking socks there too. Gordon. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Mar 5 01:07:44 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:07:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Amiga History Tape (+bonus Computer Chronicals Amiga episode) In-Reply-To: <20050304155556.Y73061@wilma.widomaker.com> from "cswiger" at Mar 04, 2005 03:58:31 PM Message-ID: <200503050707.j2577igU011783@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Looked like Curt responded to this, but it didn't come through in my digest. So just in case... >> crunch, mention people getting 2nd mortgages to stay solvent - but >> they didn't say anything about breech of contract with Atari. Jack >> Tramiel bought Atari from Warner in 1984 - certainly he would have >> taken legal action to get the chips if he thought he had a case. Jack would take legal action on anything if it served him as a decent weapon. Don't forget that Commodore was already suing him claiming stealing of trade secrets as such. Regardless, Curt is right - R.J. is way off the mark and talking a lot incorrect info. >> You know, Mr. "Business is War". RJ talks a lot about Atari knowing >> they were in a bind and offering less than $1 / share, and working >> out a last minute deal w/ Commodore for $4.25, then paying off Atari. >> > >Just did a little research - appearently they DID go to court: Yes, after the fact. From my own talks with a member of the family, when they took over Atari they had no knowlege of the Amiga deal. Their ST had nothing to do with the Amiga technology nor was there any plan to use such technology. That was Warner's Atari Inc. They basicly discovered the Amiga deal when they were going through all the programs and projects during their "evaluation" stage before chopping and shutting stuff down. It became a key weapon to get Commodore to drop their own lawsuit against Jack and TTL. ~> >from http://www.answers.com/topic/atari-st > >At about the same time, Amiga were desperate for a buyer or investor, and >the "Warner owned" Atari had paid Amiga for development work (see: "TOP >SECRET: Confidential Atari-Amiga Agreement" >(http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/mickey.html)). In return Atari was to >get one-year exclusive use of the design. By May Tramiel had secured his >funding, bought the remains of Atari from Warner for a very low price, and >set about re-creating his empire. > That was June actually, if I'm not mistaken. >When Tramiel took over the company he tried to leverage this and take >ownership of the Amiga properties. Again, they didn't know anything about Amiga when they took over the company. > Right under the noses of Atari, and at >the 11th hour for Amiga, Commodore purchased Amiga lock, stock, and >barrel. Actually, Commodore's proceedings with Amiga start around the time Jack was taking over Atari. Atari's suit wasn't announced until August. Commodore actually sent the first strike by suing members of Jack's team that July. With that in mind, when they discovered the Amiga deal it only makes sense that he would use it as a counter strike knowing his "business is war" strategy. Interstingly, Joe Decuir was caught in the crossfire of all this - he was working at Atari again as a contract engineer on the 1090 expansion box at the time of the takeover. >Tramiel was furious, and the resulting court case lasted for >years. In the meantime this left Atari with an incomplete 16-bit design, >while Commodore would soon have the best. > Again, this is more R.J. b.s. See above. The ST was a good 90% done by the time Jack bought Atari. Most of the work done during the Atari period I believe was the OS/Software portion. >--Chuck Marty From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 5 02:42:47 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:42:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital Pathways' SLC-1 "The Time Machine" Message-ID: <20050305003742.I648@localhost> Very cool. Got it working. It's a clever device that sits between the terminal and computer. It simply bidirectionally and transparently passes characters terminal <--> computer, but can pattern-match text from the computer and send text to the computer in response. I'm so advanced here, I don't even have to type in the date and time, a MACHINE does it for me! Imagine the time savings! [booting the disk from the virtual console] !100033L FILENAME? MAPPED NOVA 3 RDOS REV 6.60 DATE (M/D/Y) ? 3 05 2005 TIME (H:M:S) ? 00 36 51 R Isn't technology wonderful? From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 5 02:45:36 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:45:36 +0000 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <200503041946.LAA13258@floodgap.com> References: <200503041946.LAA13258@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <422971B0.3030607@gjcp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>>That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. >>> >>>I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the motors, >>>given the proper power up sequence. >> >>I have a program that plays "Daisy" on the Commodore 1541 disk drive(!) >>Miraculous. > > > It does it by knocking the drive heads around. I have a DriveComposer archive > that will let you compose arbitrary music for the 1541 (imagine a whole > chorus of them ... ) ... couldn't be good for alignment, though. > I used to have an alignment disk that worked by reading a (specially-written) disk where each track was progressively more out-of-line (or rather, started too far out, went into line, and then became too far in). The software would determine which track gave the least read errors, calculate the amount the head was out, then repeatedly whack the head off the appropriate end stop... Terrifying to hear it in action, but it worked, and well. Gordon. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 03:02:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:02:11 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <63988.64.139.41.130.1109964765.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42297593.7070809@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't know about the instruction set (if XP requires Pentium According to Microsoft, XP requires Pentium instructions and won't run on a 486, memory permitting or not. I have not yet verified this as I don't have a 486 that can take 128MB RAM (Microsoft's stated minimum requirements for XP). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Mar 5 02:50:18 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:50:18 +0000 Subject: MousePads In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2005 00:18:47 +0100." <1109978327.14433.0.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <200503050850.IAA06615@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tore S Bekkedal said: > On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 14:10 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > > > I'm not a collector, but I have run into a type that you might not > > have seen... oriental rug mousepads. There's the Mouse Rug, but > > that's a fake -- just an oriental pattern printed on a plain old > > mousepad. But there are also woven rug type pads, which are far > > nicer. > > > > I got mine from oldcarpet.com. Gorgeous. Great people, too. > > I got a persian one from IKEA :) > > It's a fake, of course. All my mousepads are offcuts of vinyl floor covering...but then I'm well known as a cheapskate :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 03:08:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:08:48 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42297720.8050003@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > 1) To subscribe to the list (new subscribers, not you guys), requires > not only a confirmation email, but also list owner approval. I'm having > way to much trouble with "people?" joining the list and all their email > immediately bouncing. It gums up the speedy delivery for everyone else. How will this prevent bounces? They need to reply to the confirmation email to join, proving that their email won't bounce. > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 > minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, then > again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't > unsubscribe you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get > you unsubbed. But it won't try to send you any given list post more than > twice now. Same reason as above. NOT GOOD!! Please consult sendmail RFCs and best practices. That is not standard practice and will result in a lot of people not getting email. Should I lose email if my ISP messes up routing for 2 hours? RFC states four days! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 5 03:10:42 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:10:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <422971B0.3030607@gjcp.net> References: <200503041946.LAA13258@floodgap.com> <422971B0.3030607@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050305010804.I648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>>> That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. Me too. I admit though, I really like the thing that made them obsolete: cheap memory. But nothing beats a pen flinging around a blank sheet of paper making a drawing. Especially analog plotters driven from DACs! At American Used Computer in the late 1970's they had a truly huge vertical plotter, everyone ogled it, but no one bought it... From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 5 03:25:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 01:25:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <42297720.8050003@oldskool.org> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42297720.8050003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050305011901.M648@localhost> >> 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 >> minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, then >> again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > NOT GOOD!! Please consult sendmail RFCs and best practices. That is not > standard practice and will result in a lot of people not getting email. > Should I lose email if my ISP messes up routing for 2 hours? RFC states four > days! I concur, this may turn out to be a mistake. There are all sorts of reasonable reasons mailservers can be or appear to be down for hours/days. What precisely is the problem you're addressing? I assume it's queue size and cpu cycles? From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 5 04:26:34 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:26:34 -0500 Subject: List etiquette Message-ID: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> ---------------Original Message: From: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: RE: List etiquette (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 15) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Mike, I like you, but your method of replying to messages leaves a LOT to be desired. You intermingled my message with your replies. Use some software with a quoting feature, eh? ----------------------------------- My apologies; I just changed ISPs and, along with that, my email SW. Looks OK at my end, but somewhere along the way the indentation got stripped out. >I don't consider my response either rude or condescending. ------------------------------------- Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT threads, but we love ya anyway. ==================================================== The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for: I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world, *especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around. Sorry if the discussion's moved on in the meanwhile; that's the trouble with being on the digest list. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 5 04:28:17 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 05:28:17 -0500 Subject: Honda S800 (was installing XP on Sony) Message-ID: <01C52144.8F560840@ns1.syne-post.com> From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Re installing XP on Sony To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > "well, it was a polite > question, with a simple answer, so why not just answer it?" Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? --------------------------------------- ROTFL! Interesting point, though: I owned one and may even still have the service manual somewhere; alas, that won't help you with your high-performance mods :). But if I could have helped you, you never would have known if you hadn't posted here. Never hurts to ask, I say. BTW, in case you do actually own one, I think I still have a nice wall-sized poster. mike From cc at corti-net.de Sat Mar 5 04:47:35 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:47:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: Restoring IBM (was: Age) In-Reply-To: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> References: <001001c51e35$2b77d220$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Henk Stegeman wrote: > Why is restoring IBM stuff so tough ? > I am currently restoring a IBM System/7, not that tough. > http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman > Got my System/3 back up and running again. Our 1130 only needed cleaning, then plug and play. The only tough parts were the mechanics of the typewriter and one relay contact in the printer. I have to admit that the machine had been stored in a very clean and dry place for about 20 years. Even the 82 sorter just worked "out of the box". Christian -- -------------------------------------------------- Computermuseum der Fakultaet 5 Informatik Universitaet Stuttgart Universitaetsstrasse 38 D-70569 Stuttgart http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de -------------------------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 05:15:01 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:15:01 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <422994B5.5010303@oldskool.org> John Allain wrote: > For people who haven't read it, here's what it said: > > "IIRC, Killdall stood up in court and entered a keystrokes at a PC > running MSDOS and brought up an easter egg he had programmed > into CP/M years earlier, proving they had used his code." > > "Back in the mid-1990s, PC Magazine columnist John C. Dvorak wrote > something curious about this operating system. He said he knew of an > easter egg present in CP/M in the late 1970s that caused Kildall's name > and a copyright notice to be printed. Very early versions (presumably > before the 1.0 release) of DOS had this same easter egg." I call bullshit/urban legend. John C. Dvorak has been fooled many, many times before (my favorite is a 286 he reviewed that he claimed blew the doors off of everything else; it was found later that the benchmarks he ran on it had been fudged by the manufacturer by deliberatly altering the internal clock to run slow) so I automatically invalidate his story. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 05:23:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:23:55 -0600 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <006101c5213b$1eb08880$0200a8c0@cablemodem> References: <200503050250.j252oWkv095823@dewey.classiccmp.org> <006101c5213b$1eb08880$0200a8c0@cablemodem> Message-ID: <422996CB.5060004@oldskool.org> Terry Yager wrote: > Should this discussion be moved to the urban > legend mailing list? Maybe :) I keep expecting someone to bring up "Williams Electronics, Inc. v. Artic International, Inc." from 1982. Heck, I'll do it myself: "The Williams program provided that the words "Copyright 1980 Williams Electronics" in code were to be stored in its memory devices, but were not to be displayed on the CRT at any time, thus providing a "buried" or hidden copyright notice. When the contents of Artic's memory devices were printed out by Williams' employees, the listings contained the "buried" Williams copyright notice in code." Needless to say, Williams won that case swiftly and harshly :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Mar 5 05:32:08 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:32:08 -0000 Subject: picking locks References: <33162.64.169.63.74.1110006214.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <00b201c52176$f7aa0720$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > > as well as carry a center punch... > > Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police > scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But > why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one > routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, > I carry it. > Automatic center punches (the spring loaded ones.......) are popular for breaking the toughened windows of someone elses'car before driving it away.......... I have a friend in the police, honest! Jim. From emu at ecubics.com Sat Mar 5 05:34:13 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:34:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for some DEC stuff (again) In-Reply-To: <20050304200333.33553.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <20050304200333.33553.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <42299935.9030408@ecubics.com> willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > Looking for some DEC stuff for my private collection... New Mexico, > Texas, Arizona area preferably: I have in colorado, and it goes to the dumpster, if you don't get email this morning (got already the trash guys coming at 10am) > Any BA23 chassis (these could probably be shipped) few of them, going to the trash > Actually, BA123/213 would work too few of them also, going to the trash > Any H9642 racks about 4 of them are going to the trash > Any SDI drives (RAxx) 2 ra90 > Any working RD54s nice joke ;-) > 9-track tape drive--any make that can be connected to a VAX, > i.e. Kennedy would work, though a TU80/TU81/TU81+ would be > ideal, as I already have the controller. throwing away 3 ciphers > KDA50 disk controller should have some of those here > Any of the following: DELQA/DEQNA, RQDX3, TQK50 > Contact me off-list if you have any leads. > John P. Willis Just did ;-) cheers, emanuel From emu at ecubics.com Sat Mar 5 06:05:14 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 05:05:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for some DEC stuff (again) In-Reply-To: <42299935.9030408@ecubics.com> References: <20050304200333.33553.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <42299935.9030408@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <4229A07A.8040905@ecubics.com> was intented as a PM ;-) emanuel stiebler wrote: > willisjo at zianet.com wrote: From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Mar 5 06:11:53 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 07:11:53 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ICV00E2KOJSDH@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that EVERYONE should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get out, otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of chris Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 1:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: picking locks (It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, as well as carry a center punch... -chris From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 5 07:26:51 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:26:51 -0500 Subject: AM29116DC cpu?? References: <200503031710.j23HAj0S020396@mwave.heeltoe.com><20050303101928.K648@localhost> <16936.54066.995000.476814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <005101c52186$fe97c260$0100a8c0@screamer> PDP 11/60, if I recall correctly. I think the floating point option board for the 11/34 also used them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 4:29 PM Subject: Re: AM29116DC cpu?? >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> Wow... I missed my opportunity to work on a big 2901-based > Tom> realtime video system, I wanted to work on the thing but it was > Tom> a big stinky military project, otherwise glad I turned it down. > > Tom> THe Nova 4's built with a variant though. > > DEC used 2901s in a bunch of places. The UDA50 is based on them, as > is the VAX 730. I suspect there are a number of others... > > paul > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 5 07:34:04 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:34:04 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <005b01c52188$00f82b20$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 7:35 PM Subject: Re: 11/45 progress >> Bummer as I have no spare cpu cards. But I guess at this point I still >> don't > > I am going to get you to repair that machine properly -- without swapping > boards -- even if I have to get on the next p'lane across the Pond and > show you where to stick your 'scope probe ;-) Here here! And its about time too. Jay's been spoiled working with HP's too long, and the next thing he need to check is where he's left his o-scope. From pspan at amerytel.net Sat Mar 5 08:55:09 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:55:09 -0600 Subject: Scrapping of DEC Equipment Message-ID: <000201c52194$cf9a4ec0$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hello All, I am in the process of scrapping out my Telecom gear. I have some LA 120's and other Dec boards that I will be listing. The printers are not very economical to ship, so my thoughts are that there may be some interest in the parts. If that is the case, please let me know. A year or so ago, the folks next door talked about wanting to sell their Dec inventory, test fixtures and prints. Although I did forward all of the info to them, I don't think they did anything with the information. If there is still any interest, please let me know. Thank you. Phil From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 5 07:55:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 08:55:49 -0500 Subject: Now: who invented the internet (hint) It wasn't Gore! Re: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <1109985042.14433.8.camel@fortran> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> NO, You are wrong! I've seen the interview where he specificly said that HE invented the internet! Furhtermore, you're also wrong about the funding, he did push funding for the internet in schools but the internet was Invented and in common use long before he became involved. Gore was and IS an idiot! Joe At 02:10 AM 3/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 19:52 -0500, Steve Thatcher wrote: >> I thought it was Gore... or was that the internet??? > >Gah, let the man rest, it was actually the press's fault (hey, >Evan! :P). What he said was completely correct and barely an >overstatement. He never claimed to have invented the Internet, he >claimed to have pushed the funding forward in the White House... Which >he did! > >-- >Tore S Bekkedal > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 09:05:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:05:04 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:36:56 -0500, Steve Jones wrote: > > Not many people know this, but at low levels in old Mac OS, > > they used ":" as a folder separator in file specifiers. > > But I imagine anybody who ever looked at developing software for > the Mac very quickly discovered this when they learned that - uhm, > was it ADPA? The earlyish development environment for the Mac - > included a shell, and you could see the filesystem more directly. I didn't know about the shell, but I did learn about the ":" back in the old days, when I tried to use my VAX-11/725 as a nightly backup machine for my mother's typing shop full of Macintoshes. The idea was to run each modem serial line down to the basement where the VAX was, and with each Mac Plus or Mac SE (total of 3 to 5), running CKermit in server mode, have Kermit on VMS copy files from a working directory to a special place on the RC25. Unfortunately, it was a bit beyond my skills at the time, and the tools I had available to me. But I did notice to navigate the filesystem on the Mac from the VAX, I had to use ":" as the path separator. This was circa 1987. I probably still wouldn't know this bit of trivia except for playing with Kermit that time. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 09:06:37 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:06:37 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <42290C14.8080605@oldskool.org> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <1109982726.14433.4.camel@fortran> <42290C14.8080605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050305100637.5d9bd8a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 19:32:04 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > > Actually, Linux will run on an 8086, nowadays, completely without > > memory management as an embedded OS :) > > > > I vaguely remember seeing a page about running Linux on the Tosh > > 1000 :) > > That's the ELKS project, which promptly went inactive as soon as they > got something cobbled together. A much better bet for running *nix on > 8088 hardware is Minix. > -- Or early Xenix. But my Altos 8086-based machine that runs ancient Xenix is very proprietary, with (I believe, though I haven't got any 'deep' technical specs for it) supplimentary hardware for memory protection. I've always marvelled at the fascination for running any code base that can plausiby be called 'Linux' on various tiny hardware. If it's possible to do so, there's probably already a proper port* of NetBSD running on the hardware. If not, it's just a contortionist trick. One of the dangers (to bring things around to being on-topic for this list) is that people will start running Linux or a BSD exclusively on their vintage hardware. A lot of the character of the vintage system is lost when it has the same BASH prompt as any old PC Clone someone bought at a garage sale. (*proper port meaning- a working codebase already merged into the unified NetBSD source tree, not a cluster of patches, chops, and edits 'hung off the side' of a codebase that was once 'Linux' running on some PC clone) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 09:12:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:12:22 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> References: <000601c52068$93c58450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <6.2.1.2.2.20050303221550.045957d0@mail> Message-ID: <20050305101222.23147897.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:23:59 -0600 John Foust wrote: > At 09:16 PM 3/3/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I > >remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair > >and hold an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. > >IIRC, the song was"Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. > > I remember listening to sounds via AM radio in Target or Trek on > an IMSAI circa 1979 or so. For that matter, it was fun just > to listen to the sound coming from the radio when you did different > things on the computer. > > Might we be able to begin to speculate exactly which parts of the > Altair or IMSAI were the source of AM frequency emanations? > > Might there be a clever way to emulate the AM sound of the emulated > code, generating the radio sound directly through the PC's audio > system? > A few times in the distant past, I've debugged embedded controller hardware using an AM radio. The noise you hear varies directly with whatever failure the hardware has made, i.e. where it's looping. It's very similar to the quick-and-dirty 'signature analyzer' one can make using two DACs hooked to the address bus and to X and Y inputs on an oscilloscope, to 'look' at where a processor is looping in the address space. In a production setting, where you're troubleshooting a lot of the same device, it becomes easy to recognize the 'proper operating sound' that the AM radio emits. With further work, you can figure out what 'tune' signifies which failure of the hardware. > - John > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 09:16:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:16:48 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: References: <200503041350.j24DoWdG003526@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20050305101648.4a55eb0f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:59:55 -0500 (EST) William Donzelli wrote: > > That machine also had a very nice Calcomp plotter. I miss plotters. > > I thik one of the old HP plotters would "sing" a song using the > motors, given the proper power up sequence. > When my father (an IBM employee) brought home an IBM 5100 on the weekends back in about 1975, there was a program that drove the line printer to play an extended version of the William Tell Overture. This was an IBM program, though probably not 'official', that almost certainly was written by someone at IBM. I think it was written in BASIC since all it was was a series of PRINT commands. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 5 09:24:02 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:24:02 -0500 Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <20050305101222.23147897.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002101c52197$5d3a5750$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Steve: I like the DAC to oscilloscope trick. What I'm now looking for is the code Dompier used to produce those bus emissions so I can trigger playing a WAV file. Since the emulator doesn't have a bus to use as an AM transmitter, I need to fake it. Good thing the Altair was made before FCC Title 15 compliance :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Scott Stevens Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 10:12 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:23:59 -0600 John Foust wrote: > At 09:16 PM 3/3/2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >I had an idea for an Easter Egg within the Altair32 Emulator. I > >remember a story that you could run a certain program on the Altair > >and hold an AM radio next to the Altair and you would hear music. > >IIRC, the song was"Daisy" as was played in 2001: A Space Odyssey. > > I remember listening to sounds via AM radio in Target or Trek on > an IMSAI circa 1979 or so. For that matter, it was fun just > to listen to the sound coming from the radio when you did different > things on the computer. > > Might we be able to begin to speculate exactly which parts of the > Altair or IMSAI were the source of AM frequency emanations? > > Might there be a clever way to emulate the AM sound of the emulated > code, generating the radio sound directly through the PC's audio > system? > A few times in the distant past, I've debugged embedded controller hardware using an AM radio. The noise you hear varies directly with whatever failure the hardware has made, i.e. where it's looping. It's very similar to the quick-and-dirty 'signature analyzer' one can make using two DACs hooked to the address bus and to X and Y inputs on an oscilloscope, to 'look' at where a processor is looping in the address space. In a production setting, where you're troubleshooting a lot of the same device, it becomes easy to recognize the 'proper operating sound' that the AM radio emits. With further work, you can figure out what 'tune' signifies which failure of the hardware. > - John > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 5 09:21:21 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:21:21 -0600 Subject: [OT] Re: Now: who invented the internet (hint) It wasn't Gore! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305091500.04652210@mail> At 07:55 AM 3/5/2005, Joe R. wrote: > NO, You are wrong! I've seen the interview where he specificly said that >HE invented the internet! You know, I know, everyone knows, and even Al Gore knows he didn't invent the Internet. He did say something to a reporter once that, in typical politician style, implied that because they funded something, they created it. Not quite the same as programming and soldering. > Furhtermore, you're also wrong about the >funding, he did push funding for the internet in schools but the internet >was Invented and in common use long before he became involved. > Gore was and IS an idiot! Like him or his politics or not, you know, I know, everyone knows, and even Al Gore knows, he's not an idiot any more than any college-educated politician or the reporters who quote them or the pundits who spin them or the "politics as entertainment" crowd who listen to them all long enough to sell a few more commercials. Hopefully all of us can be wise enough to learn the subtle meanings of words, and know if I say "It took a bale of money to create the Bitnet", you'll know that it wasn't ACTUALLY created with binder twine. NOW STOP IT. At what point do the LART rules allow them to be used on list members? - John From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 09:35:52 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:35:52 -0500 Subject: Now: who invented the internet (hint) It wasn't Gore! Re: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305103405.0244a080@mail.earthlink.net> finally a sensible person... LOL At 08:55 AM 03/05/2005, Joe R. wrote: > NO, You are wrong! I've seen the interview where he specificly said that >HE invented the internet! Furhtermore, you're also wrong about the >funding, he did push funding for the internet in schools but the internet >was Invented and in common use long before he became involved. > > Gore was and IS an idiot! > > Joe From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 5 09:36:05 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:36:05 -0500 Subject: Adaptec Toast Message-ID: <002801c52199$0c301dc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a copy of Adaptec Toast or other CD recording software for the System 7 Mac (68k-based) that's not tied to a specific recorder (i.e., not OEM)? If so, please contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 5 09:45:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:45:15 -0500 Subject: *nix on 8086 (was installing XP on Sony) Message-ID: <20050305154514.ZKKH18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> > Actually, Linux will run on an 8086, nowadays, completely without >> > memory management as an embedded OS :) >> > >> > I vaguely remember seeing a page about running Linux on the Tosh >> > 1000 :) >> >> That's the ELKS project, which promptly went inactive as soon as they >> got something cobbled together. A much better bet for running *nix on >> 8088 hardware is Minix. > >Or early Xenix. But my Altos 8086-based machine that runs ancient Xenix >is very proprietary, with (I believe, though I haven't got any 'deep' >technical specs for it) supplimentary hardware for memory protection. I have Xenix running on the Nabu 1600. This is an 8086 processor with 512k or RAM, four serial TTYs, and a custom MMU board which provides memory protection and management features Xenix will NOT run with the MMU board removed. Early QNX however does run without the MMU (as does CP/M-86 and MS-DOS) - QNX is one of the smallest somewhat *nix like OS's that I've seen run on a bare 8086. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 09:45:59 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:45:59 -0500 Subject: Free stuff. In-Reply-To: <4228E943.4070803@theriver.com> References: <4228E943.4070803@theriver.com> Message-ID: where are you located? Thank you. vax, 9000 From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 09:52:14 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:52:14 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: >I own more than one hundred locks, and sometimes I can't find the key to >open one. In some cases, I purchase equipment with locks but no keys. >So I think I have an entirely legitimate use for lock picks. Whether a >court would agree is an open question. Well, like I said, legal use is not defined, so you likely would be ok (it boils down to, does the cop think you have it for reasons of B&E, if so, you are in violation of the law, if not, you are good to go... NJ also has a similar law on knives... there is actually no definition of how long of a blade is illegal to carry, it all has to do with intended use... technically, if I had a valid reason, I could strap a 3 foot long sword to my side and walk around with it... on the other hand, if I have a box cutter in my pocket for no valid reason, I can be arrested... mind you I've carried a pocket knife every day for most of my life, and I've never been so much as questioned about it... that includes the two times I was removed from my car at gun point and then searched) >> (It is also illegal to have a police scanner in your car, > >Contradicted by the Communications Act of 1934, which being Federal >law should override it. I know if a few people that have gotten in hot water for having police scanners in their car. Mind you, it is ONLY in their car (although portable may be covered as well). Having them in your house is just fine. >Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police >scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But >why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one >routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, >I carry it. The idea is, a center punch is a rapid access tool for quietly and cleaning taking out a car window. So it becomes a B&E tool... much like your bolt cutters. (I actually carry a center punch in my car specificially TO break car windows... it is in my med kit that I carry in my trunk, and I've had to use it a few times when I've come across car accidents). But again, these things really boil down to can you convince the cop you have a valid reason for having them. If not, can you convince a judge. Anyone that has anything but an invalid reason, really shouldn't be worried. Those that plan to use them for illegal purposes tend to be pretty obvious (I don't know of anyone that has been harrassed over having the items EXCEPT for people that really were using them for nefarious reasons... I know of a few people that were questioned on them, and I know of a bunch of people that the items are ignored, because they have obvous legit reasons... just about all my friends have police scanners in their cars... but just about all my friends are in emergency services or law enforcement). -chris From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 5 09:54:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:54:11 -0800 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <33204.64.169.63.74.1110008368.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <200503042324.36116.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <33204.64.169.63.74.1110008368.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <200503050754.11256.lbickley@bickleywest.com> To the best of my knowledge, state and counties do NOT have the ability to override Federal Communications law. However, they often "interpret" federal law to their own "liking". Having been involved in Amateur Radio for years - I have seen a lot of attempts by local "authorities" to limit radio and transmission use. Of course, when there's an emergency - they think "hams" are wonderful - then they forget about it later. Human nature at work. Sigh. I'm not sure how it is in the rest of the world - but I suspect the same issues exist - governments, as a matter of principle, don't like to have citizens "eavesdropping" on what they are doing. Lyle On Friday 04 March 2005 23:39, Eric Smith wrote: > Lyle wrote: > > While the Federal Communications Act permit the reception of radio > > signals by scanners, shortwave radios, etc. - there are exceptions to > > that privilege in both federal and state laws. > > All the exceptions you listed are part of Federal law. By what authority > can a state make it illegal for me to receive a transmission which > federal law allows? > > Eric -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 5 09:55:06 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:55:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair32 Emulator "Easter Egg" idea In-Reply-To: <422971B0.3030607@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Mar 5, 5 08:45:36 am" Message-ID: <200503051555.HAA13836@floodgap.com> > I used to have an alignment disk that worked by reading a > (specially-written) disk where each track was progressively more > out-of-line (or rather, started too far out, went into line, and then > became too far in). The software would determine which track gave the > least read errors, calculate the amount the head was out, then > repeatedly whack the head off the appropriate end stop... Vorpal Toolkit did something of this sort, using its own disk as an alignment master (not sure if it was a modified Dysan or whatever). Once it found a problem, it would then smack the drive head several times and start again. > Terrifying to hear it in action, but it worked, and well. Yes, it sounds like it was going to break the 1541 when it was whirling at full bore. I was amazed that it worked, however. I took the theory and wrote my own drive head killer called Torquemada 1541. I've saved numerous 1541s that way, although there was one that Torquemada could not revive and I tore my hair out until I opened it up and found out how dirty it was. A cleaning diskette fixed that problem. As they say in the medical field, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Never Say Never Again" ---------------------------- From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 10:03:33 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:03:33 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: > Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that EVERYONE >should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets >submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get out, >otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it shouldn't cease to open. But I admit, that is one of the few car accident scenarios in which I have not trained. (We don't really have deep enough water in my covered towns to be an issue... although we did have a car in a swimming pool not too long ago, but that was a first for us... a drunk guy drove down someone's driveway instead of the on ramp to the highway... when we got there, he still couldn't figure out where the highway was... and what a swimming pool was doing blocking the road.) I do laugh at those emergency tools that are now being sold for car owners (that thing that looks like a mutant hammer, it has a center punch, a seat belt cutter, and I'm not sure what else on it). With all the accidents I've seen, any that a person would have a need to use such a tool, they are either not in a position to use the tool, or not in a condition to use the tool (kind of hard to cut your seat belt if you are unconscious with the dashboard in your lap) Personally, I see those as just another sucker product. My same feeling would apply to anyone carrying a center punch specifically to break the window if you drive into water. How many times in the past HAVE you driven into water, and when you did, what was your condition at the time, and where was the location of the punch relative to you, and how long would it take you to get to it vs how much time do you have to escape. All in all, its kind of silly, because the only time you will need it, you likely won't be able to use it. (I carry one not for my benefit, but for that of others... mine is in my med kit in my trunk, so I couldn't access it for myself even if I wanted to) -chris From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 5 10:09:08 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:09:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: from chris at "Mar 5, 5 01:40:31 am" Message-ID: <200503051609.IAA16094@floodgap.com> > > > I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used > > > dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on > > Or just buy a set of lock picks. They're not expensive. I think I > > paid under $15 for a reasonably nice set. > Depending on where you are, owning a lock pick set may be illegal if you > do not have a reason to own one. Where would one buy a set, anyway? I'm in ... well, see sig. ^_^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Even cabbage more sense than you! -- Shampoo, "Ranma 1/2" ------------------ From James at jdfogg.com Sat Mar 5 10:09:09 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:09:09 -0500 Subject: Scrapping of DEC Equipment Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D1A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I am in the process of scrapping out my Telecom gear. I have > some LA 120's and other Dec boards that I will be listing. > The printers are not very economical to ship, so my thoughts > are that there may be some interest in the parts. If that is > the case, please let me know. Where are you located? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Mar 5 08:19:06 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:19:06 +0000 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:32:08 GMT." <00b201c52176$f7aa0720$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200503051419.OAA09001@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jim Beacon said: > > > > > > as well as carry a center punch... > > > > Now I'm baffled. I can see reasons for banning lock picks and police > > scanners, even though I vehemently disagree with those reasons. But > > why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one > > routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, > > I carry it. > > > Automatic center punches (the spring loaded ones.......) are popular for > breaking the toughened windows of someone elses'car before driving it > away.......... > > I have a friend in the police, honest! They sell a version of these here (the UK), in car accesory shops, for breaking a car door window so you can extricate yourself from a crashed car. Definitely not illegal here :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Mar 5 10:13:10 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:13:10 -0600 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4229DA96.1010606@pacbell.net> chris wrote: >>Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that EVERYONE >>should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets >>submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get out, >>otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... > > > Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it > really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure > inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it > shouldn't cease to open. If you tried to open the door, it would indeed be impossible to open it. Depending how deep you were, there would be (many lbs/sq in)*(door surface area). however, that is the wrong solution. Roll down the window. then go out. From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 10:15:16 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:15:16 -0500 Subject: OT: picking locks Message-ID: >But >> why on earth should center punches be illegal? I don't carry one >> routinely, but if I'm going somewhere that I expect to need one, >> I carry it. > >Yeah, what's the thinking behind that? Because they can be used to break car windows quickly, cleanly, and quietly. They are popular with car thieves. (much as dent pullers can be used to yank out the ignition switch). If you have just a center punch on you (or one with a bunch of other tools), you likely won't have an issue... on the other hand, if you are walking around the streets at night, have a center punch, dent puller, screw driver, and pliers... you best be on your way to hot wire your OWN car, of you will probably find yourself with a bunch of explaining to do. >Centre punch, cordless drill, >Citroen Special tool BFH-14 (Big, um, *Friendly* Hammer, 14lb), >boltcutters, hacksaws, sockets, spanners, screwdrivers, that kind of >stuff. If I was insane enough to move to New Jersey, I suspect the >police would have a field day. Nope, they would ignore it all. Unless when asked why you had it, you started to stammer for a reason, and they thought you were only on your way to steal a bunch of cars. (Probably just about every contractor van in the state has a similar set of tools in it, along with all the people that use their personal cars to transport their tools from job site to job site). (I was asked about a small crossbow gun in my back seat once... I explained that I use it to run wires extended distances thru drop ceilings... the cop looked at the two tool bags, spool of string, and spools of phone cable also on my back seat, and went back to yelling at me for doing 65 in a 25 zone... btw: the crossbow worked like crap to run cable, I don't recommend it for others, it was a failed experiment). -chris From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 5 10:16:53 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:16:53 -0500 Subject: Color ASCII terminals Message-ID: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: Looking for recommedations for a color ASCII terminal for my computer lab. I know about the B&W/green vintage ones (ADM, Hazeltine, etc.) but I'm not too familiar with color terminals. Are there any that look reasonably "vintage" or is that a pipe dream? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 10:25:13 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:25:13 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: >Where would one buy a set, anyway? I'm in ... well, see sig. ^_^ I got mine from Galls, but that was about 10 years ago... I just did a fast check on their web site, and I didn't see them now. However, I didn't really try searching too hard... so they may still be worth looking into (mine came with a book on how to use it as well... I've never gotten very good at it however). I think I may have also seen them at one point in an MCM Electronics catalog (same set I have with the book). -chris From vrs at msn.com Sat Mar 5 10:30:40 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:30:40 -0800 Subject: picking locks (OT) References: <4229DA96.1010606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > If you tried to open the door, it would indeed be impossible to open it. > Depending how deep you were, there would be (many lbs/sq in)*(door > surface area). > > however, that is the wrong solution. > > Roll down the window. then go out. Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't operate unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all (well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). So you could easily put 8 or so people in there, who wouldn't be able to open the doors. My sedan still has the roll-down windows. (But then, *I* bought that, where my wife picked out the vans.) I hear that immediately after I bought mine, power windows became "standard", though. Vince From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 10:41:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote: > >I don't consider my response either rude or condescending. > ------------------------------------- > Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT > threads, but we love ya anyway. > ==================================================== > The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for: > > I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical > resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present > a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world, > *especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around. I realize my tone at times can be gruff or even seem gruff, and in this case the latter was probably the case even if I'm not willing to admit to the former. At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at least half a year. He knows the deal. Why? As was already mentioned, it's a slippery slope. You let one question through, OK. But then Cornelius figures since Aloysius was able to ask a generic PC support question, and it got answered, why shouldn't he? So Cornelius asks and he receives. Next thing you know, Hortense needs to know how to do some mundane PC maintenance thing that also has nothing to do with vintage computing and poses the question, etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down the mountainside at 70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title, the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS OF YEARS! Now, you may be thinking, "Oh, Sellam. You are so dramatic. This won't happen." To which I would reply, you're damn right, because I'm not going to let it happen. In thinking about it, the split between CCTALK and CCTECH, and the discussions on why it came about, can be confusing to anyone who hasn't been here since the beginning and understands the historical reasons behind the split. I can see how people can become confused by the "Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever one feels. What it means is: If you ONLY want to discuss vintage computing and you ONLY want to read postings of that nature, you subscribe to CCTECH, which only presents moderated messages. If you don't mind the occasional off-topic banter (and there is plenty) and do appreciate a more relaxed conversational forum, then you can subscribe to CCTALK where posts are not moderated. HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED. Throw that in the FAQ and make every newbie read it and agree to it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 10:44:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <0ICV00E2KOJSDH@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that EVERYONE > should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets > submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get out, > otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... I suppose rolling down the window won't work if a car is submerged? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 10:47:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:47:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now: who invented the internet (hint) It wasn't Gore! Re: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Joe R. wrote: > NO, You are wrong! I've seen the interview where he specificly said that > HE invented the internet! Furhtermore, you're also wrong about the > funding, he did push funding for the internet in schools but the internet > was Invented and in common use long before he became involved. Ok, where is this interview? I'd like to read the transcript for myself. I don't think even Gore would be stupid enough to make such an outlandish claim. > Gore was and IS an idiot! I agree, but there's no need to make up stories to prove it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 5 10:56:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <003601c521a0$acb5b280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> from vrs at "Mar 5, 5 08:30:40 am" Message-ID: <200503051656.IAA15736@floodgap.com> > My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't operate > unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all > (well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). Guess I'll be hunting for a centre punch too ... -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Le fascisme est la dictature ouverte de la bourgeoisie. -- Georg Dimitrov -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 5 10:54:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:54:46 -0700 Subject: OT- picking locks In-Reply-To: <200503051419.OAA09001@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200503051419.OAA09001@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <4229E456.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> Stan Barr wrote: >They sell a version of these here (the UK), in car accesory shops, for >breaking a car door window so you can extricate yourself from a crashed >car. Definitely not illegal here :-) > > But if they STILL made manual windows -- Just turn the Crank. I always think of the small cars with a canoe on top... "Hey look JOE one just flipped off the highway is now floating doen the river." From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 10:56:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now: who invented the internet (hint) It wasn't Gore! Re: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050305085549.00934db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Joe R. wrote: > NO, You are wrong! I've seen the interview where he specificly said that > HE invented the internet! Furhtermore, you're also wrong about the > funding, he did push funding for the internet in schools but the internet > was Invented and in common use long before he became involved. Ok, this is what he said: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Now, this could obviously be construed as Gore taking credit for "inventing" the internet, but then one could also be intellectually dishonest in claiming so. Understanding politics and having good reading comprehension helps to parse the actual meaning of this sentence. It also helps to not be a total partisan political hack :) Here's more context: BLITZER: I want to get to some of the substance of domestic and international issues in a minute, but let's just wrap up a little bit of the politics right now. Why should Democrats, looking at the Democratic nomination process, support you instead of Bill Bradley, a friend of yours, a former colleague in the Senate? What do you have to bring to this that he doesn't necessarily bring to this process? GORE: Well, I will be offering -- I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be. But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. And here's the actual transcript: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore/ BTW, I'm less trusting of Wolf Blitzer (yellow journalist that he is) than Al Gore at this point (and that's saying a lot) because Blitzer has more political clout these days, and the distortion and outright lies that he spews are more dangerous. But that's just me taking an opportunity to make overtly political commentary. More importantly, read what Robert Kahn and Vint Cerf had to say about it: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200009/msg00052.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pspan at amerytel.net Sat Mar 5 11:08:56 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:08:56 -0600 Subject: Re Telcom Scrap Message-ID: <003b01c521a6$04074440$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hi all, I forgot to mention that I am in Wisconsin. Approx. 60 miles from Minneapolis/St. Paul. I am sorry about that. Phil From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 5 11:16:36 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:16:36 -0800 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <4229DA96.1010606@pacbell.net> References: <4229DA96.1010606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <52adfa0d653870bc60e90e340eabc2ff@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 5, 2005, at 8:13 AM, Jim Battle wrote: > chris wrote: > >>> Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that >>> EVERYONE >>> should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets >>> submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get >>> out, >>> otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... >> Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how >> hard it really would be to open a car door under water. You have air >> pressure inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would >> be slow, it shouldn't cease to open. > > If you tried to open the door, it would indeed be impossible to open > it. Depending how deep you were, there would be (many lbs/sq > in)*(door surface area). > > however, that is the wrong solution. > > Roll down the window. then go out. > > An If you have electric windows like my Saturn ION, you will need to break them. The motors may or may not work after being submerged. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 5 11:18:04 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:18:04 -0600 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305111200.04ddb480@mail> At 10:41 AM 3/5/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down the mountainside at >70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title, >the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING >WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS >OF YEARS! Maybe there's a need for a "vintage Windows" mailing list. (And in that magical wish-fulfillment aspect of the Web, I bet there's a dozen sites like that.) I do think there is a need for ancient Windows discussion. It doesn't need to be here, of course. It is hard to reconstruct a working late-DOS, early Windows environment. I can see how a little Windows discussion might take place here, though, as people try to get emulators running under the Windows of the day, as well as the gizmos that go along with it (like USB serial adapters, etc.) - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 11:20:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:20:36 -0600 Subject: List etiquette References: Message-ID: <001401c521a7$a56609b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading > ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim > view to these sorts of questions. Nor is it the place to discuss lockpicking, or Al Gore's statements. > I can see how people can become confused by the > "Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to > make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever > one feels. I agree. I'd really like to get to rewriting the FAQ. But instead, I was up till 2:30am dealing with people who have crappy mail servers, and then having to defend my desire not to have to muck with that. > HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase > "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are > allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to > be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you > post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL > off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed > to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED > extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED. Thanks Sellam. I've said this more than a few times. Maybe people will listen to you, they haven't to me.. Jay West From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 11:20:52 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: picking locks (OT) Message-ID: >Guess I'll be hunting for a centre punch too ... You can get one of them at any decent tool dealer (or any non decent dealer that sells more then 4 plastic handled screwdrivers). A center punch's "true" purpose is to mark or ding items. ie: before drilling a hole in a metal sheet, you can use the center punch to ding the metal so the drill bit won't slide around as it gets started. They are really handy for breaking tempered glass cleanly. (just never use one on your leg, as I found out the hard way... it hurt so much I thought I exploded my femur). -chris From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 11:24:05 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:24:05 -0600 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4229EB35.3000001@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Now that is weird. I read somewhere (or saw a survival show) that EVERYONE >>should carry a center punch in their cars just in case you car gets >>submerged in water. Use the center punch on you side windows to get out, >>otherwise it would be impossible to open the door.... > > I suppose rolling down the window won't work if a car is submerged? Not if the windows are electric... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 11:25:45 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:25:45 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: <005b01c52188$00f82b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <003f01c521a8$5dbf2f00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > Jay's been spoiled working with HP's too long, and the next thing he need > to > check is where he's left his o-scope. Actually, it's on it's cart, next to the 11/45, where it was recently used to measure power supply ripple :) Jay From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 11:26:59 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:26:59 -0600 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be unsubscribed. But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote, "HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are allowed to go off-topic! " Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be a politician by trade or a Lawyer. Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed? There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind. I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere for my daily fix on computers. Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again. On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:41:05 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote: > > > >I don't consider my response either rude or condescending. > > ------------------------------------- > > Well, the tone of your posts has itself been the subject of several OT > > threads, but we love ya anyway. > > ==================================================== > > The rest of my reply to Sellam is off-list, except for: > > > > I think my main point is that, as historians, museum curators, technical > > resource people etc., maybe we have a special responsibity to present > > a friendly, helpful and more or less mature attitude to the outside world, > > *especially* in contrast to some of the other lists around. > > I realize my tone at times can be gruff or even seem gruff, and in this > case the latter was probably the case even if I'm not willing to admit to > the former. At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that > this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading > ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim > view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly > would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at > least half a year. He knows the deal. > > Why? As was already mentioned, it's a slippery slope. You let one > question through, OK. But then Cornelius figures since Aloysius was > able to ask a generic PC support question, and it got answered, why > shouldn't he? So Cornelius asks and he receives. Next thing you know, > Hortense needs to know how to do some mundane PC maintenance thing that > also has nothing to do with vintage computing and poses the question, > etc., etc., and before you know it we are zipping down the mountainside at > 70MPH towards a mailing list that has no former resemblance to its title, > the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list. THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING > WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS > OF YEARS! > > Now, you may be thinking, "Oh, Sellam. You are so dramatic. This won't > happen." To which I would reply, you're damn right, because I'm not going > to let it happen. > > In thinking about it, the split between CCTALK and CCTECH, and the > discussions on why it came about, can be confusing to anyone who hasn't > been here since the beginning and understands the historical reasons > behind the split. I can see how people can become confused by the > "Off-topic/On-topic" dual nature of the split list. I think we need to > make it a bit more clear that even though it's subtitled "On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts", this does not give carte blanche to talk about whatever > one feels. What it means is: > > If you ONLY want to discuss vintage computing and you ONLY want to read > postings of that nature, you subscribe to CCTECH, which only presents > moderated messages. If you don't mind the occasional off-topic banter > (and there is plenty) and do appreciate a more relaxed conversational > forum, then you can subscribe to CCTALK where posts are not moderated. > HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase > "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are > allowed to go off-topic! In the very least, you should not expect it to > be a shield against the flamage that will be blasted your way when you > post a blatantly off-topic message. All it means is that the OCCASIONAL > off-topic message is tolerated because those joining this list have agreed > to be dispositioned towards them thusly (and only then to a LIMITED > extent!), but they are still NOT ALLOWED. > > Throw that in the FAQ and make every newbie read it and agree to it. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Mar 5 11:33:07 2005 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:33:07 EST Subject: picking locks Message-ID: <9a.219e64d2.2f5b4753@aol.com> It is interesting to note that when I read this mail on gmail that one of the adds posted was for lockpicks. They are not illegal in Oregon nor are Scanners. The only scanners illegal here are ones that scan the cellular band and that is a federal rule. Paxton Astoria, OR From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Mar 5 11:37:20 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:37:20 +0100 Subject: OT- picking locks In-Reply-To: <4229E456.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503051419.OAA09001@citadel.metropolis.local> <4229E456.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050305183720.15ac4ddc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:54:46 -0700 woodelf wrote: > But if they STILL made manual windows -- Just turn the Crank. If the door is damaged this may not work any longer. And you can't play the crank trick on the front or back windows anyway. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 11:38:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:38:16 -0600 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050305100637.5d9bd8a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4227AEE0.2080008@oldskool.org> <00f201c52059$072aa2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4227E1F7.8050603@oldskool.org> <00ae01c52075$be3cdf50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32940.64.169.63.74.1109951374.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42288F93.5080500@jetnet.ab.ca> <1109982726.14433.4.camel@fortran> <42290C14.8080605@oldskool.org> <20050305100637.5d9bd8a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4229EE88.7020100@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > possible to do so, there's probably already a proper port* of NetBSD > running on the hardware. NetBSD requires 32-bit math/architecture, and hasn't been ported to 808x as far as I know. So does Linux, which makes the embedded ports interesting. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 5 11:55:31 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 09:55:31 -0800 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <32935.64.169.63.74.1109996386.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305095354.05e48eb0@mail.zipcon.net> are there any 8" drives out there that don't require 24 volts to work? I have LOTS of powersupplies that supply GND, +5 and +12, but none that also supply +24 :( From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 11:43:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:43:03 -0600 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4229EFA7.5080601@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that > this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading > ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim > view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly > would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at > least half a year. He knows the deal. Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the original XP question. I came to his defense, but I did not post the original question. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 11:44:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:44:27 -0600 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <9a.219e64d2.2f5b4753@aol.com> References: <9a.219e64d2.2f5b4753@aol.com> Message-ID: <4229EFFB.3090305@oldskool.org> Innfogra at aol.com wrote: > It is interesting to note that when I read this mail on gmail that one of > the adds posted was for lockpicks. Not really -- targeted advertising is exactly google's goal with gmail. Or did you think they like to provide services for free? :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 5 12:10:27 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:10:27 -0800 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305100358.07804c20@mail.zipcon.net> Lets see, someone who cannot be bothered to go to classiccmp.org to unsubscribe, or email the correct automated email address to be unsubscribed.... to make it simple for you either go HERE http://www.classiccmp.org/cctalk.html and un freaking subscribe yourself or email cctalk-request at classiccmp.org with the single word unsubscribe in the subject and the body and it will unsubscribe you. YOU recieved an email when you subscribed telling you how to manage your list subscription, YOU subscribed, I doubt that the list owner picked your email address out of the blue and subscribed you, yet it is apparently impossible for you to unsubscribe yourself? The list owner has a lot more to do than to hold the hand of every member of this list, YOU subscribed yourself, YOU should be smart enough to unsubscribe yourself. Users like YOU are the reason I pulled the plug on the 30+ mailing lists I -USED- to run, I didn't have time or energy to deal with people who weren't bright enough to follow directions or save the information they needed to manage their own subscriptions. any response form jim isbell will be routed to /dev/null At 09:26 AM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be >unsubscribed. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 12:02:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:02:57 -0600 Subject: List etiquette References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <008201c521ad$8fe9cc10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be > unsubscribed. You asked me to do your work for you, when you are perfectly capable of unsubscribing yourself. Lazy. I'll honor your request immediately, since you can't seem to do your own work. > Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be > a politician by trade or a Lawyer. No, you're imposing YOUR interpretation on us, when we all have a pretty good idea just what it means. I (and others) have said exactly what it means and you're simply disagreeing, which I will defend your right to disagree. But you will not be allowed to insist that everyone agree with your opinion. The occasional off-topicness is acceptable, usually when it trails off from an on-topic post. If it involves XP, you can't help but expect some grief. Now if you asked about how to get PUTR running under XP, or how to hook up 8" floppy drives to XP for vintage software preservation, that's a different story. If you can't see the difference, there's not much I can do to help. > Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post > yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a > PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed? > There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics > that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind. The post was on-topic because it was about an 8" drive, and being able to preserve old non-pc data. Very on-topic. The post about car maintenance was tongue in cheek, and meant to illustrate a point but apparently the point was lost on you. > I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere for my daily fix > on computers. Some quaint phrase about a swinging door comes to mind. > Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again. Since you can't seem to figure out how to either send an unsubscribe email to the automated list software, or can't figure out how to type the list management URL into your browser, I will oblige you myself. Since you run a list for vintage (apparently microcomputer only) software, I would suggest that you extend your list charter to include vintage hardware. It'd be great to have like-minded people with you. 386 discussion here is always welcome though, unless it's in a very uninteresting mainstream PC. Questions about DOS are ok here too, particularly on old hardware. This all falls under the definition of "classic". Jay West From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 12:04:40 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:04:40 -0600 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <4229EFA7.5080601@oldskool.org> References: <4229EFA7.5080601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Sorry Jim, I didnt mean to cause YOU any trouble. I guess I will just have to remain subbed so I can watch my back...vicious bunch here. On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:43:03 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > At any rate, Jim has been with us long enough to know that > > this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading > > ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim > > view to these sorts of questions. If Jim was a newbie then I certainly > > would have been more humane in my reply. But he's been subscribed for at > > least half a year. He knows the deal. > > Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the original XP question. I came to > his defense, but I did not post the original question. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 5 12:06:04 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:06:04 -0800 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! Message-ID: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. I get the . prompt, I run BASIC, type in the single line 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" RUN it prints out the header, then prints ME 10 Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) It's a nice simulator with a front panel-blinkenlights Anyone know how to boot the PASCAL-S Disk? The simulator has a menu selection that fat fingers in the RK8-E boot loader (strictly cheating I know.) but once that is set in motion nothing seems to happen. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 12:04:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:04:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be unsubscribed. > > But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote, > > "HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase > "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are > allowed to go off-topic! " > > Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be > a politician by trade or a Lawyer. Reading comprehension: it's not just a skill, it's a necessity. > Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post Following instructions: it's not just a skill it's a necessity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 12:05:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:05:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <4229EFA7.5080601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Slow down -- I am *NOT* the Jim who posted the original XP question. I came to > his defense, but I did not post the original question. Yes, I understand that. I meant Jim ISBELL. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 12:09:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:09:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Sorry Jim, I didnt mean to cause YOU any trouble. I guess I will just > have to remain subbed so I can watch my back...vicious bunch here. Oh please. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 12:16:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:16:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33001.64.169.63.74.1110046571.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Chris wrote: > Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it > really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure > inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it > shouldn't cease to open. You've got a lot more water pressure outside trying to get in. If the water and air knew how to cooperate to change places, it would be easy. But they don't. It's going to be really tough to open a door against that pressure differential. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Mar 5 12:20:22 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 05 Mar 2005 18:20:22 +0000 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1110046822.13690.56.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 18:06, Ron Hudson wrote: > ME 10 A bit of a shot in the dark, but is it "Missing END"? i.e. add 20 END -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 12:21:26 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:21:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <001401c521a7$a56609b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001401c521a7$a56609b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <33062.64.169.63.74.1110046886.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > Nor is it the place to discuss lockpicking, The lockpicking was at least in regard to old computers with locks and/or keyswitches to which one does not have the keys. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Mar 5 12:29:08 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:29:08 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4229FA74.1060601@internet1.net> chris wrote: > Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it > really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure > inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it > shouldn't cease to open. The air pressure inside wouldn't amount to much compared to the water pressure outside pushing in. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 12:38:50 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:38:50 -0500 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305133744.04520e00@mail.earthlink.net> it seems to me that the long winding discussion about picking locks falls farther out of the classic computer realm than trying to get software running on a computer... >THERE IS NOTHING CLASSIC ABOUT MAKING >WINDOWS XP RUN ON YOUR LAPTOP AND NOR WILL IT SUBJECTIVELY BE FOR DOZENS >OF YEARS! From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 5 12:41:50 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:41:50 -0600 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting References: <32935.64.169.63.74.1109996386.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050305095354.05e48eb0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <002c01c521b3$0211a2e0$913dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Geoff Reed" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:55 AM > are there any 8" drives out there that don't require 24 volts to work? I > have LOTS of powersupplies that supply GND, +5 and +12, but none that also > supply +24 :( To my knowlegde +5v & +24v are required by all 8" drives, other voltages vary from drive to drive. Before plugging in power connectors veryify voltages. Randy From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 5 12:57:37 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch, was Re:OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> This centerpunch you all speak of, how old is it? Can I boot Windows XP on it? Does it have enough memory? Yo, WTF, Over? Topic drift? We're lost at sea! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Mar 5 12:54:37 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:54:37 +0000 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:06:04 PST." <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200503051854.SAA09926@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. Is this Bernhardt Baehr's excellent emulator? > I get the . prompt, > > I run BASIC, type in the single line > > 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" > > RUN > > it prints out the header, then prints > > ME 10 > > Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get > it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) > Can't help atm as my mac with the emulator on is hors de combat with a failed monitor - need a vga adaptor... > It's a nice simulator with a front panel-blinkenlights > Ah...must be Mr Baehr's emulator :-) > Anyone know how to boot the PASCAL-S Disk? The simulator has a menu > selection that > fat fingers in the RK8-E boot loader (strictly cheating I know.) but > once that is set > in motion nothing seems to happen. >From the docs: Halt the PDP-8 Set memory size to 32K or more Go to the RK8-E window and mount the DECpak "Pascal-S disk" in drive 1 Restart the PDP8 Assign a logical name to drive 1 (not really necessary, but it saves typing later). ie "ASSIGN RKA1: B:" Type "RUN B:PASCAL" (seems like you've got this far already.) When the command prompt appears (an asterisk) type the name of a Pascal source file to run, such as "B:BENCH.PS" - this file is usually included with the emulator. The file will be compiled and run. A really great emulator, but I've not worked out how to load TSS-8 on it yet! It's worth getting an old Mac just to run it :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From emu at ecubics.com Sat Mar 5 13:10:18 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:10:18 -0700 Subject: Color ASCII terminals In-Reply-To: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <422A041A.4080209@ecubics.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hello, all: > > Looking for recommedations for a color ASCII terminal for my > computer lab. I know about the B&W/green vintage ones (ADM, Hazeltine, etc.) > but I'm not too familiar with color terminals. Are there any that look > reasonably "vintage" or is that a pipe dream? vt240 & vr241 & lk201 ? From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Mar 5 13:14:05 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:14:05 EST Subject: Amateur electronics questions, but almost on-topic Message-ID: I have a couple of questions that I haven't been able to find in my books. (1) there has been much discussion in this list about capacitors failing. I recently had a cap on a QIC-24 drive fail with a bit of sound and fury (axial tantalum). Is there any way to test for this other than desoldering every cap (at least every electrolytic) and testing it on a cap meter? I don't want to fry my IMSAI, but there are a lot of caps in there and it would take forever... (2) (flame risk) My Tek 555 popped and blew a fuse when I had it plugged in last. I disassembled the PS and cleaned off the dust, and I want to test it by itself, but the power-on relay won't close. Any hints, or is this like amplifiers where the tubes need a load? - Scott Quinn From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 13:19:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:19:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <33001.64.169.63.74.1110046571.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Chris wrote: > > Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it > > really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure > > inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it > > shouldn't cease to open. > > You've got a lot more water pressure outside trying to get in. If the > water and air knew how to cooperate to change places, it would be easy. > But they don't. It's going to be really tough to open a door against > that pressure differential. Does it help if you open the air vent? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 13:51:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:51:35 -0500 Subject: Color ASCII terminals In-Reply-To: <422A041A.4080209@ecubics.com> References: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <422A041A.4080209@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:10:18 -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Hello, all: > > > > Looking for recommedations for a color ASCII terminal for my > > computer lab... Are there any that look reasonably "vintage" or is that a pipe dream? > > vt240 & vr241 & lk201 ? For a more vintage look, one can start with a VT125 and use an external color monitor (the VT125 looks just llke a VT100, down to the mono tube, but it has 4? BNCs for an external, simultaneous display. Dunno what might be older than a VT125 that happens to have color. The VT240 (VT240 + VR2410 is probably more attainable. I think they made a lot more of them. It's "vintage" if you are trying to aim for the 1980s. -ethan From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 5 04:59:31 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:59:31 +0100 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 00:27:12 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> Unless, of course, you actually have a decent digital camera... ;-) > > Yes, but I can;'t afford a 5*4" digital back for my monorail. And even > then I am told film still has a higher resolution. > >> >> http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/d70/Nitetime_shot_30sec.jpg >> >> It's a big picture - 3028x2002 pixels (native resolution of my Nikon >> D70) - > > I hate to tell you this, but a good 35mm image is normally regarded as > being equivalent to 12--20 megapixels. 6 megapixels is not enough IMHO. > The limit for precision-developed high quality B&W film exposed within a quarter stop of the optimum with the best Leica lenses is almost 100 lines per mm. Lens resolution needs to be about 3x film resolution in order to get almost the full theoretical resolution out of the film. One line pair is somewhat the equivalent of two pixels. That gives a 4800?7200 pixels, each of which needs to be 16 bits deep for B&W. Ordinary film with normal treatment can be scanned at half that linear resolution without any loss. I scan my 35mm colour slides in archival quality with a file size of 50-60MB per image at 48 bits per pixel with lossless compression. Larger formats have a lower linear resolution, smaller ones higher resolution. This is because smaller lenses are more perfect - closer to be diffraction limited. I have made some really nice 18*25cm enlargements from Minox negatives (9*11 mm), Minox lenses are a lot better than the best lenses for 35mm cameras, but not nearly so much better that it compensates for the size difference. The same applies when you go up from 35mm to 60 or 70mm, or from there to a studio camera. I think I would scan an 18*24cm negative at 9000*12000, which would fill up even modern disk drives rather quickly. If you want to take a picture of a display, there is not much use of having more than four times the resolution of what you want to photograph, twice the resolution is just about sufficient. The D70 should be able to make top-quality screenshots of displays with up to 1500*1000 pixels. Few historical displays have better resolution than that, but vector displays are difficult. They have extremely high resolution and are very dim. IBM had some character displays where each character was made by shaping the electron beam through a steel stencil. They would probably also need a very high resolution camera to get a "perfect" screenshot - I never tried, but I have a suspicion that something bigger than 35mm would be useful. A nice sheet of black velvet is very handy if you want to take pictures of displays, there are always some control lanps to give reflections even in a darkened computer room. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 5 05:33:43 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:33:43 +0100 Subject: Taking photos of displays... In-Reply-To: <200503020049.QAA18761@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503020049.QAA18761@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:49:32 +0100, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- >> >> I'm a bit worried by your choice of film. To me, 800 ASA is a fast film, >> which will have coarse grain. I normally preder something slower than >> 100ASA. And then there's the issue of developing and printing it. These > ---snip--- > There is a 1600 Pan--something_or_other that Kodak makes > that is also fine grain. I've used it to make C size blowups > of astro pictures. It is hard to find but it is available. > Most places I went would tell me that it was only use by > professionals and they didn't carry it. I wish I could > remember that name. > Dwight > I do not do analogue pictures any more, but I hear that Kodak TMax100 developed in FX39 is recommended as a reasonably fast (ISO 100) high-resolution (80 lp/mm) combination. I used ISO 40 film (Adox or Agfa) developed in Rodinal when I still was doing that kind of thing, but much has changed with film manufacture in the meantime. Rodinal is still supposed to be up to par for developing, though. Faster film is not really useful for technical pictures in my opinion, it is fine for artistic, sports or news photography. There are obvious exceptions: I used high-speed film for making oscilloscope shots, where grain really does not matter. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 5 05:52:52 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:52:52 +0100 Subject: Amiga Video - (was: Looks neat -- Fairchild movie on DVD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 04:14:48 +0100, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Tom Hudson wrote: > >> Whoops. I was scrolled down and didn't see the follow-up messages >> regarding copyright. Never mind! > > Yes, the God of Copyright must be obeyed! All hail Life of Author + 70 > Years!! > > If we're lucky, our great grandkids will be able to see that video, if it > hasn't already cumbled into dust. > There is always a place in the world where fair use will allow to make needed copies. Some countries levy a tax on blank media to cover private copying, I think Germany is among them. In Norway, we have been allowed to distribute private copies as long as there is no kind of reimbursement involved. The new law (based on the new EU copyright directive) will still explicitely allow unlimited personal copies of things that lack effective copy protection, and to make copies to the same media types of items with copy protection. We also have schools and libraries which pay an annual fee to be allowed copying stuff. I think there is always a way, but possibly not in the US. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 5 05:55:35 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 12:55:35 +0100 Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: <42253361.9000006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42253361.9000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 04:30:41 +0100, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/ > so what about www.spies.com ? Lots of stuff on > the net give the same original link and the main > site is down or now porn sites. The last few days > I tend to be looking for older stuff and the stuff > is gone. Try the Wayback machine: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php -- -bv From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sat Mar 5 12:19:30 2005 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 05 Mar 2005 18:19:30 +0000 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1110046770.13694.51.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 18:06, Ron Hudson wrote: > ME 10 A bit of a shot in the dark, but is it "Missing END"? i.e. add 20 END -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Mar 5 14:41:34 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:41:34 -0600 Subject: Amateur electronics questions, but almost on-topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050305143841.06781c68@localhost> At 02:14 PM 3/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >(1) there has been much discussion in this list about capacitors failing. I >recently had a cap on a QIC-24 drive fail with a bit of sound and fury (axial >tantalum). Is there any way to test for this other than desoldering every cap >(at least every electrolytic) and testing it on a cap meter? I don't want to >fry my IMSAI, but there are a lot of caps in there and it would take >forever... Failed shorted I guess. You can ohm-meter the remaining caps- Electrolyltics should show a varying resistance over time as the battery in the ohmmeter charges the cap. Don't try this on a BIG cap. If it shows a really low resistance that doesn't change, that might be a RBT (really bad thing). >(2) (flame risk) My Tek 555 popped and blew a fuse when I had it plugged in >last. I disassembled the PS and cleaned off the dust, and I want to test >it by >itself, but the power-on relay won't close. Any hints, or is this like >amplifiers where the tubes need a load? Switching power supplies need a load. A Big linear may not. There's probably some sort of interlock somewhere. [Philosophy] "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." --R. P. Feynman --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 5 14:46:09 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 14:46:09 -0600 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <002c01c521b3$0211a2e0$913dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <32935.64.169.63.74.1109996386.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050305095354.05e48eb0@mail.zipcon.net> <002c01c521b3$0211a2e0$913dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <422A1A91.7020105@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Geoff Reed" > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:55 AM > >> are there any 8" drives out there that don't require 24 volts to work? >> I have LOTS of powersupplies that supply GND, +5 and +12, but none >> that also supply +24 :( > > > To my knowlegde +5v & +24v are required by all 8" drives, other voltages > vary from drive to drive. Before plugging in power connectors veryify > voltages. Any consensus on good power supply solutions? Doc From allain at panix.com Sat Mar 5 14:45:21 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:45:21 -0500 Subject: Atari Arcade Milipede board References: <200503042200.44304.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <049301c52149$23441200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001501c521c4$523c0920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Somebody threw out this CPU-card, maybe 10" x 24", from a standard Atari console. Anyway, I have it saved for anyone on the list looking for one. Its metal housing box is also available, with it's "riser" card. On a side note, The interconnect edges make it pretty modular. Could these be exchanged to allow different games to be used in the same housing? John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 5 14:48:13 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 13:48:13 -0700 Subject: Cromemco Software - what to do with it? In-Reply-To: References: <42253361.9000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <422A1B0D.6070209@jetnet.ab.ca> Bj?rn wrote: > > Try the Wayback machine: > > http://www.archive.org/web/web.php > All I get is this stupid moose and squrrel ... They do have the PDP 4/X and PDP 8/X archived but all the good bits are in un-archived PDF's. I am surprized not many people are doing classic machines in FPA's or CPLD's since compared to buying them the modern logic is a lot cheaper. I guess everybody wants emulated 6502's. :) Ben Alias woodelf PS. I have not seen a classic small architecture that I like ( other than a PDP/8) thus I am building my own design rather than collecting classic machines, but I still would like to know more about them. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 5 14:54:20 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:54:20 GMT Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus!" (Mar 5, 10:06) References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 5 2005, 10:06, Ron Hudson wrote: > I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. > it prints out the header, then prints > > ME 10 > > Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get > it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) The statement is fine, the program as a whole isn't. "ME" means "Missing END". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 5 15:13:03 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:13:03 -0800 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: <200503051854.SAA09926@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200503051854.SAA09926@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1d0e25190710e70de7f277775e08e04c@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Ron Hudson said: >> I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. > > Is this Bernhardt Baehr's excellent emulator? Yes. Running under OSX. > >> I get the . prompt, >> >> I run BASIC, type in the single line >> >> 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" >> >> RUN >> >> it prints out the header, then prints >> >> ME 10 >> >> Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get >> it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) >> > > Can't help atm as my mac with the emulator on is hors de combat with a > failed monitor - need a vga adaptor... > >> It's a nice simulator with a front panel-blinkenlights >> > > Ah...must be Mr Baehr's emulator :-) > >> Anyone know how to boot the PASCAL-S Disk? The simulator has a menu >> selection that >> fat fingers in the RK8-E boot loader (strictly cheating I know.) but >> once that is set >> in motion nothing seems to happen. > >> From the docs: > Halt the PDP-8 > Set memory size to 32K or more > Go to the RK8-E window and mount the DECpak "Pascal-S disk" in drive 1 > Restart the PDP8 > Assign a logical name to drive 1 (not really necessary, but it saves > typing later). ie "ASSIGN RKA1: B:" > Type "RUN B:PASCAL" (seems like you've got this far already.) > When the command prompt appears (an asterisk) type the name of a > Pascal source file to run, such as "B:BENCH.PS" - this file is > usually included with the emulator. > The file will be compiled and run. > > A really great emulator, but I've not worked out how to load TSS-8 > on it yet! It's worth getting an old Mac just to run it :-) > > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 5 15:12:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:12:46 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress References: <004b01c5206b$f2888570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <32886.64.169.63.74.1109951046.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <021401c5211f$803e0c60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <16938.8398.126000.340085@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> You wrote... >> It's a UART. Unless you wire it for loopback, you normally won't >> read back the same data you wrote. Jay> Yeah, it's a UART. But I assumed you wrote data to a register, Jay> then wrote data to a different register to strobe the data out, Jay> etc. So I figured the first register was just a temporary buffer Jay> that would hold it's contents until replaced by data in the Jay> opposite direction. My bad. DEC UARTs have a receive and a transmit register. Receive is read-only, of course. Transmit could be write-only or read-write. I would have expected read-write. Usual practice was to make things read-write if they had to be writeable, as an aid to diagnostics. Write-only registers are a real pain for diagnostics writers because you can't tell if the bits are working, so DEC avoided them as a normal design practice. paul From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 5 15:17:33 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:17:33 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. Message-ID: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html Want to play? Get me in #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net sometime tonight. I plan on going to bed about midnight, and I will be turning the noisy bloody contraption off. Failing that, get me tomorrow. Gordon. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 15:28:04 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:28:04 -0800 Subject: Color ASCII terminals In-Reply-To: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002e01c5219e$bf304c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: Intecolor made nice color ASCII terminals. They made the original CompuColor computer by putting a Z80 system in their color terminal. Good for the 70's look if you can find one. The Intecolor 125 is a nice Color ASCII terminal. from the mid 1980s. I liked the design. Wyse had the 350 / 370 series of color terminals concurrent with the Wyse 50 series of B&W terminals from the late 1980s. Tektronix had the 4105, 4106, 4107 Color terminals that had full support for ASCII. (PS Not sure I got the spelling on intecolor right?) -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 15:42:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. In-Reply-To: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html Woah, cool font on the CIT-101! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 5 15:51:31 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:51:31 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422A29E3.4000901@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? >>http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html > > > Woah, cool font on the CIT-101! > Yup. Built-in. The "Hello Dr. Chandra..." message was there when I got it, I just popped a few control codes in for enhanced coolness. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 15:56:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:56:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. In-Reply-To: References: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 13:42:57 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? > > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html > > Woah, cool font on the CIT-101! Yeah... that's one of the standard options for the C-Itoh 101, as is an internal real-time clock - I have a DCL procedure somewhere to extract the time at login, and write it back out, wrapped in the correct escape sequences to set the internal time (which is not held across terminal resets/power-cycles). One taps "SETUP" to see the time in the upper right corner of the screen... I used to double-tap SETUP so I could check the time of day from my desk. Faster than typing "DATE", and it doesn't disturb the current session. The 101e doesn't have the internal clock, but it does support a reasonble method of switching sessions if one plugs the printer port into a second host - kinda like what DEC did with later terminals, but available 10 years earlier. I have a quantity of 101s and 101es in storage... They are one of my favorite "non-DEC" terminals. -ethan From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 5 16:02:42 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:02:42 -0800 Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <454b3928669a171da407ca56c2aa5eef@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 5, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 5 2005, 10:06, Ron Hudson wrote: >> I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. > >> it prints out the header, then prints >> >> ME 10 >> >> Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get >> it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) > > The statement is fine, the program as a whole isn't. "ME" means > "Missing END". > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > .BASIC READY 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 END RUN 4A 040304-70 push "continue" toggle and the cpu loops around 76xx From wacarder at usit.net Sat Mar 5 16:05:20 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:05:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. In-Reply-To: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html > > Want to play? Get me in #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net sometime > tonight. I plan on going to bed about midnight, and I will be turning > the noisy bloody contraption off. Failing that, get me tomorrow. > > Gordon. Good job! Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 16:20:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:20:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working Message-ID: For what it's worth: I got Microsoft Network Client working under DOS 3.3 on a 386/33. It works very well. I was able to connect to my WinXP system and copy over just under 500 files. I also got it to work reliably with a 3Com Etherlink III. Before, I whined that it kept crashing. Well, this time when I was setting up, I realized that the MSNC setup program advises that it will use more memory to optimize network performance but gives you the option to forgo optimization. I had it forgo optimization, and I think that made all the difference. At some point, if it becomes necessary, I'll also test on an 80286 and even an old XT system. Once again, if you want to download MSNC, I have it all bundled up in a zip file here: http://www.siconic.com/download/network/ (Note: I changed the location from where it was before.) This directory also contains the 3Com 3C5x9 configuration utility, but it's also included in the ZIP file, so no need to download it separately. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 16:58:31 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:58:31 -0600 Subject: Amateur electronics questions, but almost on-topic References: Message-ID: <006d01c521d6$db174360$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > (1) there has been much discussion in this list about capacitors failing. > I > recently had a cap on a QIC-24 drive fail with a bit of sound and fury > (axial > tantalum). Is there any way to test for this other than desoldering every > cap > (at least every electrolytic) and testing it on a cap meter? My ESR meter is designed to work in-circuit. I can't say enough good about this one, it's an improved version of the Bob Parker design, and reasonably priced. I was a little concerned about ordering for Portugal, but I was quite happy with the transaction as well. So... no desoldering required. See http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 17:14:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:14:32 -0600 Subject: pdp11 hardware troubleshooting aid Message-ID: <00c201c521d9$1878b1b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I noticed a W9040 card on ebay 5171947200 Would this be the right extender card to work on my unibus 11/45? If so, I'll put in a bid on it. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 17:38:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:38:03 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: Message-ID: <00e301c521dc$6021b270$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > How about also sending a copy of the FAQ to new subscribers? I know it's > not much (I swear I'll put time into updating it if I ever get some free > time) but it's something. I'm not positive, but I don't believe mailman will send an attachment to a subscriber. I can include specific text, but the entire faq is a bit much to stuff in the "welcome to the list" email. But, what I CAN do is include a link to the faq in the new subscriber welcome message. > Can you please change that to something like 3 times with 2 hour > intervals? Or at least allow it to try more than twice. This still > doesn't help someone who has a 24 hour server outage thanks to their > stupid ISP (like I've been experiencing lately). Ok, I can do that. But bear in mind that providing for a particular persons mailserver to have an extended outage, means that because of YOUR outage, 14 other people won't get their email for a while. How far do I try to accomodate one person at the expense of others? I'm still considering options.... Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 17:56:07 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:56:07 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200503050638.BAA00765@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00e801c521de$e65d55e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Der Mouse wrote... > How does a 421 greeting banner fit into this? Good question, and I'm not sure of the answer. I'll find out. > But if you're giving up on retries, that rather badly breaks the > assumptions underlying SMTP, and I care enough about list mail to be > willing to go to some minor lengths to keep it useful to me.) I'm certainly not giving up on retries. I just think it's excessive to allow 7 days of tries, especially when most of those are to addresses that don't exist, or don't bother to keep their mailboxes from filling up to their quota. > If that really is the concern, maybe make it a per-user option? You're welcome to hack the mailman code and give me the patches. I need some time with other things besides this list for a bit, the past two weeks have been a little excessive. Sorry, I've been a bit grouchy lately. > but if > the actual reason is something more like "I don't have the time/energy > to figure out how to do this" Not something I'm particularly fond of admitting, but I have several customers who I maintain their bulk email systems for. On average, each of them process over 2 million outbound emails per week, all with Sendmail clusters. Hey, at least it's subscription based, so I don't feel so slimy. But my point is, I'm quite adept at handling multiple queues. I'm just a little worn out. "figuring out how to do this" is not the issue. Tell you what... once I get the address list cleaned up so that the subscribers are known good email addresses, I'll set up two stage delivery with a different queue runner for "problematic target mailservers". Then I'll set the max time in queue back to a more "reasonable" level. But I'm sure I'll get lots of future questions about email order. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 18:11:10 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:11:10 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MS wrote... > I think this is totally unfair and unacceptable. This means that if a > mail > server is having even a slightest bit of downtime (hardware failure, > scheduled > maintenance, whatever) that lasts more than 35 min, then all users of that > mail server lose their mail?! Anyone who runs a mail server in a serious capacity has no business being down for extended periods of time (well, unless it's a HOBBY of course). One of the problems mail server admins face, are people who throw up their own mailserver at home. You don't have gobs of bandwidth, you don't have multiple backup servers, and you don't have diesel generators and online UPS. If you don't, you have no business running a public mailserver. Most of the time I see this it's because someone wants some kinda juvenile bragging rights about "Ohhh I run a my own K00L server". Geeze. I have seen a few people who do it for good reason, but, if you run a mail server you need to be a good net citizen about it. What does being a good net citizen admin entail? Well, for starters, it means that you don't expect other mail servers to pick up YOUR SLACK. Anyways.... as I said, once the subscriber list is cleaned up a bit, I'll be more gracious about the timeout settings for people who run (or have) unreliable servers. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 18:13:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:13:39 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42297720.8050003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00f601c521e1$596fe230$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > NOT GOOD!! Please consult sendmail RFCs and best practices. That is not > standard practice and will result in a lot of people not getting email. > Should I lose email if my ISP messes up routing for 2 hours? RFC states > four days! S'ok, I'm comfortable functioning in whatever haphazard environment that you might find acceptable. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Mar 5 18:18:59 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:18:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working Message-ID: <20050306001859.DA6494000B9@ws82.cs.drexel.edu> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I got Microsoft Network Client working under DOS 3.3 on a 386/33. It > works very well. I was able to connect to my WinXP system and copy over > just under 500 files. I have it too working under VMWARE for running programs that no-longer work under Windows XP DOS windows (e.g. Turbo-C). However, I do not have the library that allows programs to use the IP facilities. If anybody has this library, please let me know. Microsoft used to have it on their web site, but I can't find it. Thanks **vp From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 5 18:19:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:19:56 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > MS wrote... > >> I think this is totally unfair and unacceptable. This means that if a >> mail >> server is having even a slightest bit of downtime (hardware failure, >> scheduled >> maintenance, whatever) that lasts more than 35 min, then all users of >> that >> mail server lose their mail?! > > > > Anyone who runs a mail server in a serious capacity has no business > being down for extended periods of time (well, unless it's a HOBBY of > course). > > One of the problems mail server admins face, are people who throw up > their own mailserver at home. You don't have gobs of bandwidth, you > don't have multiple backup servers, and you don't have diesel generators > and online UPS. If you don't, you have no business running a public > mailserver. Most of the time I see this it's because someone wants some > kinda juvenile bragging rights about "Ohhh I run a my own K00L server". > Geeze. I have seen a few people who do it for good reason, but, if you > run a mail server you need to be a good net citizen about it. > > What does being a good net citizen admin entail? Well, for starters, it > means that you don't expect other mail servers to pick up YOUR SLACK. > > > Anyways.... as I said, once the subscriber list is cleaned up a bit, > I'll be more gracious about the timeout settings for people who run (or > have) unreliable servers. I wouldn't. Anybody who has access to the skills and time to run a mail server most likely has access to a *Tah-Dah* backup server. It's trivial if you have nameservice control of your domain. If you don't, you shouldn't be running your own mail at all. A bunch of the *nix consultants I know run their own domains and their own mail, and we serve each other as backup servers. Doc From mhscc at canada.com Sat Mar 5 18:40:23 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (mhscc at canada.com) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:40:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <20050305164023.123.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> -------Original Message: > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 12:41:50 -0600 > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Subject: Re: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting > From: "Geoff Reed" > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:55 AM > > are there any 8" drives out there that don't require 24 volts to > work? I > > have LOTS of powersupplies that supply GND, +5 and +12, but none > that also > > supply +24 :( > > To my knowlegde +5v & +24v are required by all 8" drives, other > voltages > vary from drive to drive. Before plugging in power connectors veryify > voltages. > > > Randy If this is on an S-100 System (and if we're talking about 8" drives, as opposed to the very rare 8' ones :), you can try connecting the +24V line to the unregulated +18V. >From the installation instructions for the Quintec Tophat, a dual 8" (TM848 Tandon) drive assembly that fits across the top of a Cromemco Z-2: ...Using a good DC voltmeter be certain that the +18V line is running at least 18 volts, preferably higher, around 19 volts... And if anyone really needs a +24V supply, I *might* have one or two in the basement somewhere (+5, +12, +24). Not light, though, as I recall... mike From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Mar 5 18:54:35 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:54:35 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> It was a survival show and the person who drove his car into the lake tried very hard to open the door. He kicked it, etc, etc. It wont budge. He finally took out his centerpunch and broke the side window. He waited for the water to rush into the car and then he swam out of the window. So, based on that scenario, I doubt it would be possible to even open it a little bit... Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of chris Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:04 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: picking locks Although I can't dispute this idea, I've been curious exactly how hard it really would be to open a car door under water. You have air pressure inside the car trying to escape, and although the door would be slow, it shouldn't cease to open. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 18:01:25 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:01:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00e801c521de$e65d55e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200503050638.BAA00765@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00e801c521de$e65d55e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503060055.TAA04587@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]. I need some time with other things besides this list for a > bit, the past two weeks have been a little excessive. Sorry, I've > been a bit grouchy lately. No, no, no problem at all. You put in a huge amount of unpaid work to provide a wonderful resource to us, and I for one am not about to complain because you've done something to make it a little easier on yourself. I'm just trying to figure out how I can best work within that to keep it as useful as feasible to me too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Mar 5 18:55:59 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:55:59 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <4229DA96.1010606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <0ICW006DDNX8QE@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Yes, but how many cars still have manual windows? I don't think it will work with automatics which is what most people have... Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Battle Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: picking locks If you tried to open the door, it would indeed be impossible to open it. Depending how deep you were, there would be (many lbs/sq in)*(door surface area). however, that is the wrong solution. Roll down the window. then go out. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 19:00:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:00:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050305164023.123.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> References: <20050305164023.123.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <200503060101.UAA04668@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And if anyone really needs a +24V supply, ...can't you take two bog-standard peecee power supplies and connect ground of one to +12 of the other and get a 24V rail that way? I *thought* the output side was supposed to be isolated. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wacarder at usit.net Sat Mar 5 19:01:19 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:01:19 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23 ODT question Message-ID: Yesterday I picked up a 6 ft rack loaded with a PDP-11/23, two RL02 drives, an RX02 drive, an RL02 pack, 3 boxes of RX02 floppies, and a bunch of cables. The rack was complete with side panels and top pink/purple panel. Today I figured how to get all 400+ pounds of it out of the back of my pickup truck and into my shop with just me and my wife. I then hooked it up to a VT100 and powered it on. It comes up with an octal address (177something) followed by the @ prompt. I'm used to unibus M9312 console emulator prompts and the 11/03 prompt where you can type in a two character code for a supported device and it will attempt to boot that device (ie DL, DX, etc). I'm going to search for the 11/23 ODT info, but in the meantime if someone can give me a quickie command set so I can try to boot off the RL02 or RX02 drives, I would greatly appreciate it. Is there a command to tell it to boot from the RL02 or RX02? Thanks in advance for any help that anyone can provide! Off to Google for 11/23 and ODT commands and to check Al's bitsavers. Ashley From mhscc at canada.com Sat Mar 5 19:20:24 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (mhscc at canada.com) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:20:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working Message-ID: <20050305172024.3626.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:20:15 -0800 (PST) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working > For what it's worth: > > I got Microsoft Network Client working under DOS 3.3 on a 386/33. It > works very well. I was able to connect to my WinXP system and copy > over > just under 500 files. > > I also got it to work reliably with a 3Com Etherlink III. Before, I > whined that it kept crashing. Well, this time when I was setting up, I > realized that the MSNC setup program advises that it will use more > memory > to optimize network performance but gives you the option to forgo > optimization. I had it forgo optimization, and I think that made all > the > difference. > > At some point, if it becomes necessary, I'll also test on an 80286 and > even an old XT system. > > Once again, if you want to download MSNC, I have it all bundled up in a > zip file here: > > http://www.siconic.com/download/network/ > > (Note: I changed the location from where it was before.) > > This directory also contains the 3Com 3C5x9 configuration utility, but > it's also included in the ZIP file, so no need to download it > separately. > So, let me get this straight; as long as the client is running on a 386 or older (even though the files are dated 1996) it's on topic, but if someone were to ask how to network a Pentium II running DOS 6.22 to his XP system, you'd presumably tell him to FO & get the files from Microsoft; have I got that right? BTW, does your package include the addon to make it bidirectional, or is it one way only? I've used the MS client for years without any hiccups, but it is VERY memory hungry. It IS free though... mike From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 19:02:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:02:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503060124.UAA04728@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Okay, I'll rant a little myself. > [...], if you run a mail server you need to be a good net citizen > about it. > What does being a good net citizen admin entail? Well, for starters, > it means that you don't expect other mail servers to pick up YOUR > SLACK. Anyone who thinks that downtime exceeding 35 minutes is unreasonable is living in a fantasy world. That's probably true for Road Runner or Telus or their ilk, but for a corporation, a small ISP, or even a medium ISP, manning infrastructure 24x7 is often Just Not On; as little as half an hour to roust someone out of bed and into the machine room is actually pretty good. There's a reason 1123 says that "the give-up time generally needs to be at least 4-5 days". The above is a rant. It is only a rant. If this had been a serious message, the attitude presented would have been drastically different. This concludes our test of the Rant Line. We now return you to your regularly scheduled list. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 19:26:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:26:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11/23 ODT question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > It comes up with an octal address (177something) > followed by the @ prompt. I'm used to unibus > M9312 console emulator prompts and the 11/03 > prompt where you can type in a two character > code for a supported device and it will attempt > to boot that device (ie DL, DX, etc). It sounds like it either doesn't have a bootstrap or there's a problem somewhere. Are you sure all the cards are plugged in? Any gaps in the bus? Assuming all is fine, try 173000G at the prompt to jump into the bootstrap. If it comes up, you should know what to do from there ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 19:29:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:29:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working In-Reply-To: <20050305172024.3626.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 mhscc at canada.com wrote: > So, let me get this straight; as long as the client is running on > a 386 or older (even though the files are dated 1996) it's on > topic, but if someone were to ask how to network a Pentium II > running DOS 6.22 to his XP system, you'd presumably tell him to > FO & get the files from Microsoft; have I got that right? > If you really want an answer, e-mail me privately. I don't care to waste any more list space with this argument. If you don't get it then, well, you just don't get it. > BTW, does your package include the addon to make it bidirectional, > or is it one way only? As far as I can tell it's client only. > I've used the MS client for years without any hiccups, but it is > VERY memory hungry. It IS free though... It's great when you want to copy files off *REALLY OLD* (hint) PCs that interface to *REALLY OLD* (another hint) storage devices. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 19:45:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:45:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari Arcade Milipede board In-Reply-To: <001501c521c4$523c0920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200503042200.44304.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <049301c52149$23441200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001501c521c4$523c0920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <32918.64.169.63.74.1110073530.squirrel@64.169.63.74> John Allain wrote: > On a side note, The interconnect edges make it pretty > modular. Could these be exchanged to allow different > games to be used in the same housing? They didn't make any others with the same pinout, because they really didn't want operators to convert cabinets; they wanted to sell complete games. Electrically, it is identical to Centipede, so you only need a different wiring harness or a kludge to scramble the pins if you want to convert Centipede to Milipede or vice versa. Eric From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 5 19:46:36 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:46:36 -0500 Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working In-Reply-To: <20050305172024.3626.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: <004301c521ee$55d5b890$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I think what you're looking for (for bi-directional use) is the Microsoft Workgroup Add-on for MS-DOS. Maybe it had been subsequently renamed, but it allows me to connect to machines in the house and create and use shares for moving files around. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of mhscc at canada.com Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:20 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working > Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:20:15 -0800 (PST) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: MS Network Client under DOS 3.3 working > For what it's worth: > > I got Microsoft Network Client working under DOS 3.3 on a 386/33. It > works very well. I was able to connect to my WinXP system and copy > over > just under 500 files. > > I also got it to work reliably with a 3Com Etherlink III. Before, I > whined that it kept crashing. Well, this time when I was setting up, I > realized that the MSNC setup program advises that it will use more > memory > to optimize network performance but gives you the option to forgo > optimization. I had it forgo optimization, and I think that made all > the > difference. > > At some point, if it becomes necessary, I'll also test on an 80286 and > even an old XT system. > > Once again, if you want to download MSNC, I have it all bundled up in a > zip file here: > > http://www.siconic.com/download/network/ > > (Note: I changed the location from where it was before.) > > This directory also contains the 3Com 3C5x9 configuration utility, but > it's also included in the ZIP file, so no need to download it > separately. > So, let me get this straight; as long as the client is running on a 386 or older (even though the files are dated 1996) it's on topic, but if someone were to ask how to network a Pentium II running DOS 6.22 to his XP system, you'd presumably tell him to FO & get the files from Microsoft; have I got that right? BTW, does your package include the addon to make it bidirectional, or is it one way only? I've used the MS client for years without any hiccups, but it is VERY memory hungry. It IS free though... mike From elf at ucsd.edu Sat Mar 5 19:53:21 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:53:21 -0800 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305173046.02231048@popmail.ucsd.edu> [This post involves a hand held lab computer, of which this particular model was made/purchased about 15 years ago. Similar models have since been made, but without the problem I describe below.] I have a hand held lab computer (manufactured & purchased in 1990) which takes quite an unusual battery. The battery is the size of a regular "AA", but is 2.5V Lithium. The company who used to manufacture them (SAFT) no longer does so. The SAFT battery model # is "LCP 6". Picture of battery (and a regular "AA" for comparison): http://home.san.rr.com/instep/saft-lcp6.jpg (~42KB) Picture of lab computer: http://home.san.rr.com/instep/labpartner-front.jpg (~58KB) http://home.san.rr.com/instep/labpartner-back.jpg (~44KB) The company who made the lab computer still offers to refurbish the unit for a new (more readily available) lithium battery pack, but I want to avoid doing that if at all possible. They also don't have any suggestions as to where to find a 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized battery. AND -- I've Google'd high & low for an equivalent, but nothing pops up. So I've come here to ask: does anyone know if an equivalent battery exists? (And what's with the designer(s) decision to use such an obscure battery type?) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 19:53:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:53:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Doc wrote: > Anybody who has access to the skills and time to run a > mail server most likely has access to a *Tah-Dah* backup server. It's > trivial if you have nameservice control of your domain. If you don't, > you shouldn't be running your own mail at all. I did away with my backup server. Spamming software often seems to ignore precedence, though I'm not sure whether that's deliberate or sloppiness. But there's no easy way for my backup server to have a list of valid email addresses on the primary, so the backup will accept anything for the local domains. The backup kept falling over because its queue was growing faster than it could process the entries. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 5 20:07:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:07:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working Message-ID: Ok, I finally found an 8" drive that worked. I don't think there's a coincidence that it's half-height, and seems to have been made in the 1982 timeframe. I can't tell who the manufacturer is because I haven't unbolted it from the chassis it's installed in to check yet. I was able to format a disk mostly successfully (more on this in a bit) and transfer MS-DOS 6.22 to it. It was pretty nifty booting DOS on my PC off an 8" drive ;) So anyway, when I was formatting the disk, it didn't seem to like the last 4-6 tracks or so. Above the clatter of the noisy fan (bad bearings) I could hear the head recalibrating. When the format finished, it reported 107520 bytes in bad sectors. This comes out to 210 bad sectors (assuming 512 bytes per sector) which comes out to some weird number of tracks. Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? The main hurdle has been jumped, so I'm in good shape at this point. Thanks for the tips, all! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 18:41:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:41:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <02df01c52127$b056b200$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 4, 5 08:04:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote... > > Odd... That implies your console card is not responding. Maybe it's > > defective too. > Kinda what I figured :) Or alternatively you've got address bus problems too... > > >But IIRC there's at > > least one bit (my memory is weak on this, but I think it's the interrupt > > enable bit, maybe bit 6) that you should be able to read and write from > > the panel. > Ah ok, good thing I printed off those engineering notes. I'll track down the > interrupt enable bit and try that. My aim (in case you've not guessed) is to try and see if you can write even a single bit to a device (or memory) over the Unibus. > > > My idea was going to be to hang a terminal off the card (assuming you > > have an RS232 lead and can decode the word foramt and baud rate settings > > [1] and then try writing to the transmit data registers at 777566 or > > 777656. See if you can transmit chracters to the terminal. > I have the appropriate cable from the card to mate & lock, I'll cobble That sounds like a current loop cable. Do you have a terminal with a 20mA loop input? If you look at the prints for the M7800, you'll see the transmit output of the UART (normally labelled SO -- serial output. I forget the pin number, but it's somewhere in the low 20's) goes to the current loop driver. It also goes to one section of a 1488 RS232 buffer. The RS232 buffer (and the companion 1489 receiver) were not fitted on all versions of the DL11. It's worth checking if your card as them, if not, they can always be fitted (I think all PCBs have the pads and tracks for them), but you may need to fit some extra passives too. If you need to do this. I'll dig out my prints and tell you just what to do. If you do have the RS232 buffer, then you can connect the output of that section (which is routed to a pin on the BERG connector) to the RS232 receive input of a terminal. > > [1] The baurd rate is set by a rotary switch on the card and by the > > frequency of the crystal fitted. I found the quickest way to work it out > > was to connect a frequncy counter to pin 17 (Rx clock) and 40 (Tx clock) > > of the UART chip. Then divide that frequency by 16 to get the baud rate. > > But I guess you don't have a frequency counter sitting on top of your > > machine... > Well, as of now, my HP 5315A counter is sitting on top of it :) I'll make Right :-) > the measurements tomorrow. I'm glad you said that, because I noticed the > rotary switches for TX & RX speed settings weren't labled (1-10) on the > card. This way I can be sure. However, my usual question follows... if I > connect to 17 and 40 (separately of course), what is the ground reference > location for those measurements? I never seem to know where to hook the There is one common ground (0V) rail for the entire machine. It is carried over the unibus cables (unlike the power voltages, which are separately supplied to each backplane and device). It's also connected to the chassis metalwork of the machine For high-frequency work, you should pick a ground close to the point you're measuring since the ground wires do have some impedance. But for low frequency tests which this is, you can use any ground in the machine. The best one is the ground pin of the chip you're working on, or a chip near it on the same board, but I suspect just clipping the ground lead of your counter onto the CPU chassis will do. > other lead :\ In this case, if I can find a pinout for the UART, I'm sure > that would be a good spot for ground. My memory says pin 3, but _please check that_. > > You have got them in the right way round, with the resistors towards the > > front of the machine, I hope! If not, you will have all sorts of > > problems. > Yes, component side of all boards is towards the front, including the two > terminators. OK, good. I hope you don't think I was stating the obvious here, it's just that 'silly faults' like that can be a right pain to trace. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 18:54:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:54:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304182724.T98716@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 4, 5 06:36:59 pm Message-ID: > I suspect that it might be very well be a corruption of the story > about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, that showed up in NewDOS > prior to NEWDOS80. That one really DID exist. RS, in TRS-DOS 2.3, I can confirm that one exists, I've seen it myself. > changed "Randy Cook" in the easter egg to "Tandy Corp". It was > invoked by running a boot file as if it were a program, with one > of the master paswords, and pressing 'J'? and 'N'? while it was loading. I thought it was type BOOT/SYS.WHO, hold down 2 4 and 6 and press enter. For the non-TRS-80 people here : In TRS-DOS, disk space was allocated by 'granules', these being half a track on single-density disks (which is all 2.x supported). All space allocated on the disk has a directory entry, this includes the directory itself (DIR/SYS) and the boot block (BOOT/SYS) The boot block was the first sector of the disk, but of course the rest of that granule was also allocated to BOOT/SYS. The ROM bootstrap just copied the first sector into memory (note : sector, not granule) and jumped to the start of that area of memory. But executable files in general were more complex. In particular you could haev several logical sections that loaded at non-contiguous addresses, you could have sections that were taken as comments (and not loadrd anywhere), and so on. The other thing you need to know is how the keyboard was scanned. It was done in software. The low 8 address lines, suitably buffered, were fed to the ekyboard column lines. The 8 row lines, again suitable buffered, were fed to the data lines, these buffers being enabled in a 256-byte section of the memory map between the ROMs and the RAM. By rerading 8 selected address in that region you could determine which keys were pressed. Now for the easter egg. The boot sector was carefully designed so that if BOOT/SYS was loaded as a program from the TRS-DOS prompt, it would be taken as a comment. And thys executing BOOT/SYS would ignore the real boot sector, and would execute the stuff in the remaining 4 sectors of that granule. That contained a little program to kick the display into 32*16 mode, then read in 512 bytes from those sectors, decrypt them, which in part involved XORing them with the keyboard row data (I think all the column lines were turned on) -- this means the message is not obvious if you search the disk, and write the result to video memory. On TRS-DOS 2.3, the result is a Radio Shack copyright screen. I am told that on some earlier versions it was a Randy Cook copyright screen, and this was used to prove that Radio Shack were still using Randy Cook's code, even though they claimed they weren't (and weren't paying him royalties). That last part I am not sure about. The existance of the easter egg I am. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:01:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:01:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8" drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Mar 4, 5 08:08:58 pm Message-ID: > Has anyone ever actually successfully hooked an 8" drive to a PC > controller and gotten it to work? If so, who is that person? Yes, I have. The catch (for you) is that it was the second disk controller in a PC, and I didn't use the BIOS to drive it at all. I 'bashed the bare metal' from turbo pascal. Reading my source code, I used a value of 3 for the step rate, corresponding to a 12ms step rate. I seem to send 0x3F to the disk controller (high nybble = step rate, low nybble = head unload time). You're welcome to the soruvce code I mentioned (it reads PERQ 'interchange' disks) if you want it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:34:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:34:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <005b01c52188$00f82b20$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Mar 5, 5 08:34:04 am Message-ID: > >> Bummer as I have no spare cpu cards. But I guess at this point I still > >> don't > > > > I am going to get you to repair that machine properly -- without swapping > > boards -- even if I have to get on the next p'lane across the Pond and > > show you where to stick your 'scope probe ;-) > > Here here! > > And its about time too. > > Jay's been spoiled working with HP's too long, and the next thing he need to > check is where he's left his o-scope. I hope you're not implying that HP machines can't be repaired properly (to component level) as well. YEs, many HP 'service manuals' were just boardswapper guides, but there are unofficial schematics of many HP calculators (including desktops) available from Dave Colver at HPCC. We've not attacked any minicomputers -- YET! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:37:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:37:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <20050305100637.5d9bd8a1.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Mar 5, 5 10:06:37 am Message-ID: > One of the dangers (to bring things around to being on-topic for this > list) is that people will start running Linux or a BSD exclusively on > their vintage hardware. A lot of the character of the vintage system is > lost when it has the same BASH prompt as any old PC Clone someone bought > at a garage sale. For much te same reason I am actively against running PNX (PERQ Unix, basically a V7 derrivative) on classic PERQs. If you want a unix box, then get a unix box (e.g. a PC running linux or *BSD). IMHO a PERQ should run POS (the original PERQ operating system, written mostly in a very extended Pascal). POS is better for running user-written microcode too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:11:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:11:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 5, 5 00:03:32 am Message-ID: > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 minutes. > This means the server will try to send email to you once, then again 30 > minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't unsubscribe > you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get you unsubbed. But > it won't try to send you any given list post more than twice now. Same > reason as above. Eeek!!! I don't like this at all. My ISP takes the mail server down from time to time for scheduled maintenance, it's also failed a few times (not often, perhaps half a dozen times in 10 years). I don't think it's ever been down for more than a day, though. It's certainly been down for more than half an hour To lose messages becuase of that is not something I am at all happy with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:14:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:14:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <04be01c5214e$3b5d8ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 5, 5 00:40:29 am Message-ID: > And yes, I'm considering a personal email to each new list member, and > expecting a response. That will keep the automated tools out. When I joined this list, I had to send a personal e-mail to the moderator explaining my interest in classic computers. Apparently this was discontinued fairly quickly because said moderator got a lot of such messages to read. But that was the first day of the list's existance. I guess now the number of new subscribers per day is a lot less. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:18:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Mar 5, 5 01:40:31 am Message-ID: > > >> I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a used > >> dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you put stress on > > > >Or just buy a set of lock picks. They're not expensive. I think I > >paid under $15 for a reasonably nice set. > > Depending on where you are, owning a lock pick set may be illegal if you > do not have a reason to own one. Does wanting to open classic computers without damage and/or operate the front panel lockswitch count as a 'reason to own lockpicks'? Is this one of those laws where if you're caught in the middle of the night on a stranger's doorstip with a set of lockpicks then you're comitting a crime (which IMHO is quite reaosnable) but if you happen to be at a friend's house repairing a PDP11/o5 then you do have a legal reason to have said lockpicks? > > Last I knew, lock pick sets were illegal to own in NJ unless you are > someone that has a "legal" use for one. Of course, since legal use isn't > really defined, it leaves it pretty wide open. (It is also illegal to > have a police scanner in your car, as well as carry a center punch... Presumably becuase the automatic centre punch can be used to break car windows for the purposes of robbery. > again, unless you have "legal" reasons for the above... of course, being Does wanting to drill holes in the right place count as a legal rason for having a centre punch? Because that's what I use mine for (and rarely, if ever, drill a hole without centre-punching it first). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:48:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <001401c521a7$a56609b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 5, 5 11:20:36 am Message-ID: > > Sellam wrote... > > this is NOT a mailing list for general computer discussions (and pleading > > ignorance to this is not a good excuse) and that we overall take a dim > > view to these sorts of questions. > Nor is it the place to discuss lockpicking, or Al Gore's statements. Although the lockpicking discussion hsa gone _way_ off-topic now, it started off on-topic, as a question of how to get inside a DEC HSC70 (IIRC) if you didn't have the right key. If that's off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 19:57:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:57:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amateur electronics questions, but almost on-topic In-Reply-To: from "Saquinn624@aol.com" at Mar 5, 5 02:14:05 pm Message-ID: > > I have a couple of questions that I haven't been able to find in my books. > > (1) there has been much discussion in this list about capacitors failing. I > recently had a cap on a QIC-24 drive fail with a bit of sound and fury (axial > tantalum). Is there any way to test for this other than desoldering every cap Yes, tantalum caps are good at that. The good news is that there's usually no other damage. > (at least every electrolytic) and testing it on a cap meter? I don't want to > fry my IMSAI, but there are a lot of caps in there and it would take forever... Cehck for dead shorts ebtween each power rail (at the output of each 3-terminal regulator on each card) and groud. These caps fail shorted, which is why they generally explode. I would be more wary of the big aluminium electrolytics in the PSU. If one of those goes up you'll know it. I would reform them (bench PSU and series resistor, there must be a FAQ on this somewhere) before powering up the machine. > > (2) (flame risk) My Tek 555 popped and blew a fuse when I had it plugged in > last. I disassembled the PS and cleaned off the dust, and I want to test it by > itself, but the power-on relay won't close. Any hints, or is this like > amplifiers where the tubes need a load? It's getting late (too late for me to hunt for the service manual), but from what I remember you need to have the 'scope connected. The heater transformer, for example, is in the 'scope, fed with controlled AC from the PSU box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 5 20:10:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:10:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503060101.UAA04668@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 5, 5 08:00:53 pm Message-ID: > > > And if anyone really needs a +24V supply, > > ...can't you take two bog-standard peecee power supplies and connect > ground of one to +12 of the other and get a 24V rail that way? I > *thought* the output side was supposed to be isolated. Isolated from the power line != isolated from ground I would not be at all suprised to find that the 0V line on the output side is in fact connected to mains ground. If that's the case, you fairly obviously can't link 2 PSUs in series -tony From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Mar 5 20:30:27 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 05 02:30:27 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > One of the problems mail server admins face, are people who throw up their > own mailserver at home. You don't have gobs of bandwidth, you don't have > multiple backup servers, and you don't have diesel generators and online > UPS. If you don't, you have no business running a public mailserver. Most of > the time I see this it's because someone wants some kinda juvenile bragging > rights about "Ohhh I run a my own K00L server". Geeze. I have seen a few > people who do it for good reason, but, if you run a mail server you need to > be a good net citizen about it. Have you ever heard of the word SOVEREIGNTY? I run my own servers for everything because I exercise my right to be totally independent from the outside world. I'll keep running when the rest of the world explodes in the thermonuclear holocaust. What makes you think that you have the right to impose your elitism on the rest of the world? Just because you are rich and snobby enough to have gobs of bandwidth and redundant servers and all that, why in the hell should everyone else? The Founding Fathers of ARPANET made it accessible to everyone. I have the right to be a netizen even if my entire installation consists of a single VAX-11/780. I *do* diligently maintain it, and it has a very good uptime. But every Classic Computer needs hardware maintenance occasionally, and if it is acceptable to everyone at my site to have occasional downtime, what right do YOU have to impose on us that we have to spend millions of dollars on redundancy that we don't need? We are concerned with *CLASSIC* computers here. It is extremely hypocritical of you to shut me out because I run my entire operation on CLASSIC hardware with CLASSIC software in the CLASSIC manner, using business practices of the CLASSIC computing era, exactly as it was done on ARPA Internet in 1980s. Hell, I actually have more bandwidth at this facility that most ARPANET sites had: I have 384 kbps SDSL and they only had 56 kbps. I run my VAX servers just as diligently as UC Berkeley ran theirs, but demanding the level of performance you are asking for is absolutely and totally outlandish, extravagant and orders of magnitude over the threshold of socially unacceptable. > What does being a good net citizen admin entail? It entails following standards. RFC 1123, Requirements for Internet Hosts, says that you must retry mail for 4 days because the recipient has the *RIGHT* to run a mail server that may occasionally go down for a day. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Mar 5 20:35:26 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 05 02:35:26 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > The above is a rant. It is only a rant. If this had been a serious > message, the attitude presented would have been drastically different. > This concludes our test of the Rant Line. We now return you to your > regularly scheduled list. Well, it IS a serious matter for ME. If Jay is going to make this list hostile to people who actually run their entire business operations on Classic computers in the Classic manner (and exercise their right to use their own servers and not someone else's for sovereignty reasons), it looks like those of us *TRULY* into Classic computing need to start our own list (hosted on a Classic list server of course). der Mouse, can I count you in? I'm sure I can count on Tony... He is certainly *THE* most intelligent and most worthy person on this list. MS From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 5 20:42:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:42:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8' drive on PC working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33239.64.169.63.74.1110076926.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote about 8-inch drives: > Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? That would be the standard format for DD (MFM) 256-byte sectors, or SD (FM) 128-byte sectors. But if you set the PC BIOS to believe it is a 5.25" HD disk, it should think it's PC 1.2M format, 15 sectors of 512 bytes. It will also think that there are 80 tracks/side, while the drive only supports 77, so it's not surprising that there were problems on the last tracks. It never would have occurred to me that you'd try to use MS-DOS to format 8-inch disks. I thought you were just trying to read disks. Anyhow, older versions of MS-DOS allowed you to tell FORMAT how many tracks to use, though I'm not sure it was actually willing to accept arbitrary values. And I'm not sure what DOS 6.22 allows. Eric From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Mar 5 20:42:30 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 05 02:42:30 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503060242.AA21105@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Doc Shipley wrote: > Anybody who has access to the skills and time to run a > mail server most likely has access to a *Tah-Dah* backup server. It's > trivial if you have nameservice control of your domain. If you don't, > you shouldn't be running your own mail at all. Again, who gave you the right to dictate so? Yes, as the sole owner of Harhan Engineering Company I of course have total control of the Harhan.ORG and Harhan.COM domains, but why in the hell should I spend money on a backup server just because YOU decree so? Many many many original ARPANET sites did just fine with one single mail server for the organisation. It was a Classic computer, like a VAX-11/780 running 4.2 BSD UNIX, or a FOONLY running TENEX, or whatever. They were kept up diligently with tender loving care, just like I maintain my VAXen, but boards DO go bad sometimes, and PROPER hardware troubleshooting (the kind that Tony Duell practices) takes more than 35 min. MS From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 5 20:43:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:43:03 -0600 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working References: Message-ID: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:07 PM > Ok, I finally found an 8" drive that worked. I don't think there's a > coincidence that it's half-height, and seems to have been made in the 1982 > timeframe. I can't tell who the manufacturer is because I haven't > unbolted it from the chassis it's installed in to check yet. > > I was able to format a disk mostly successfully (more on this in a bit) > and transfer MS-DOS 6.22 to it. It was pretty nifty booting DOS on my PC > off an 8" drive ;) > > So anyway, when I was formatting the disk, it didn't seem to like the last > 4-6 tracks or so. Above the clatter of the noisy fan (bad bearings) I > could hear the head recalibrating. When the format finished, it reported > 107520 bytes in bad sectors. This comes out to 210 bad sectors (assuming > 512 bytes per sector) which comes out to some weird number of tracks. > Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? > > The main hurdle has been jumped, so I'm in good shape at this point. > > Thanks for the tips, all! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] 8" drives have 77 tracks, PC-DOS uses 40 or 80 tracks. Only the 80 track mode (5.25" HD - 1.2mb) comes close. Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. STOP IT!!!! You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a driver for 8". Randy www.s100-manuals.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 5 21:08:17 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 19:08:17 -0800 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305190724.0221e500@mail.zipcon.net> At 06:07 PM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >-Snip- >So anyway, when I was formatting the disk, it didn't seem to like the last >4-6 tracks or so. Above the clatter of the noisy fan (bad bearings) I >could hear the head recalibrating. When the format finished, it reported >107520 bytes in bad sectors. This comes out to 210 bad sectors (assuming >512 bytes per sector) which comes out to some weird number of tracks. >Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? -snip again- sounds like 4 bad tracks, plus a few bad sectors elsewhere.. From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 5 20:46:24 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:46:24 -0600 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting References: <20050305164023.123.h006.c009.wm@mail.canada.com.criticalpath.net> <200503060101.UAA04668@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000401c521f8$92fc6e30$0a3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "der Mouse" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 7:00 PM >> And if anyone really needs a +24V supply, > > ...can't you take two bog-standard peecee power supplies and connect > ground of one to +12 of the other and get a 24V rail that way? I > *thought* the output side was supposed to be isolated. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Open frame power supplies that handle 8" drives (all of the "standard" voltages) are cheap and easy to get (either jdr or jameco). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 21:01:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:01:44 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG><00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200503060124.UAA04728@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001c01c521f8$d44efec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Der Mouse wrote... > Anyone who thinks that downtime exceeding 35 minutes is unreasonable is > living in a fantasy world. Let me introduce you to the majority of my customers ;) > There's a reason 1123 says that "the give-up time generally needs to be > at least 4-5 days". Yeah, you're right. My actions were driven by being up very late, and very fed up with WHY I had to be up late. *sigh* I know better. Regards, Jay From James at jdfogg.com Sat Mar 5 21:02:56 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:02:56 -0500 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D1E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I have a hand held lab computer (manufactured & purchased in > 1990) which takes quite an unusual battery. > > The battery is the size of a regular "AA", but is 2.5V > Lithium. The company who used to manufacture them (SAFT) no > longer does so. The SAFT battery model # is "LCP 6". > > Picture of battery (and a regular "AA" for comparison): > > http://home.san.rr.com/instep/saft-lcp6.jpg (~42KB) It might not make a perfect solution, but you could take 2 nicad cells (1.25V each) of similar diameter and a shorter length (N size?) and place them in series in shrink tubing to make a replacement cell. Also check out the oddball batteries available for photo equipment. There's a lot of odd voltages in that category, though you might have to slightly modify the cell holder (widen it a bit). From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 5 21:08:19 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:08:19 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305210218.04ead7b8@mail> At 08:35 PM 3/5/2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: >Well, it IS a serious matter for ME. If Jay is going to make this list >hostile to people who actually run their entire business operations on >Classic computers in the Classic manner (and exercise their right to >use their own servers and not someone else's for sovereignty reasons), >it looks like those of us *TRULY* into Classic computing need to start >our own list (hosted on a Classic list server of course). How rude of you to insult the list host. They generally work their butts off for free. For pay, they get the promise of more butt-working. You're free to start your own list. No parting insults necessary. It all makes me wonder if the schism shouldn't be towards replacing the mailing list with a web forum. That'll show the people who are stuck reading this list on dial-up at 300 baud on an ASR-33. On a web, the crud can be edited, threads corralled, useful messages moved to the FAQ, etc. - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 21:17:37 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:17:37 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <006601c521fb$0d9391d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > I hope you're not implying that HP machines can't be repaired properly > (to component level) as well. Actually, I believe what Bob was implying is that they generally DONT need to be repaired ;) Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 21:09:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200503060319.WAA05290@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Have you ever heard of the word SOVEREIGNTY? I run my own servers > for everything because I exercise my right to be totally independent > from the outside world. Yet you want the benefits of the outside world - benefits like this mailing list. Can't have it both ways. > The Founding Fathers of ARPANET made it accessible to everyone. I > have the right to be a netizen even if ...no. Nobody has a "right" to be on the net (which is what I assume you mean by "be a netizen"). Even if you did, you are forgetting another one of the prime principles of the Classic Net: politeness. Politeness includes things like not raking a volunteer over the coals for not continuing to provide something for free in quite the same way he used to, or perhaps not the way you, armchair-quarterbacking, think he ought to. In my opinion you deserve to be dropped from the list for the egregious rudeness your message exhibits. Nobody, possibly excepting Jay, has a *right* to receive cct{alk,ech} mail. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 21:19:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:19:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200503060323.WAA05326@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If [...], it looks like those of us *TRULY* into Classic computing > need to start our own list (hosted on a Classic list server of > course). der Mouse, can I count you in? No, thank you. I prefer my listadmins polite and well-balanced. Polite especially towards those doing large amounts of volunteer work. Well-balanced as in understanding that volunteers can't always do things exactly the way *you* think they should be done, and not flying off the handle when they take temporary measures to bring their work/stress load down from the impossible into the merely insane. I consider such qualities even important than listhosting on classic hardware/software (no matter whose definition of "classic"). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 21:32:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:32:56 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: Message-ID: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Eeek!!! I don't like this at all. My ISP takes the mail server down from > time to time for scheduled maintenance, it's also failed a few times (not > often, perhaps half a dozen times in 10 years). I don't think it's ever > been down for more than a day, though. It's certainly been down for more > than half an hour > > To lose messages becuase of that is not something I am at all happy with. Tony, I think you're missing something here. ISP's pretty much always have secondary and tertiary mail servers. Just taking down ONE server doesn't make your mail bounce. The classiccmp server would try the secondary. For example, your ISP (demon.co.uk) has two mail servers set up. Surely they don't take BOTH of them down for maintenance at the same time ;) Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain that didn't have more than one MX record. Except for someone trying to run a service out of their house. To do so, is... well... Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 21:34:25 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:34:25 -0600 Subject: List etiquette References: Message-ID: <00b401c521fd$653594e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Although the lockpicking discussion hsa gone _way_ off-topic now, it > started off on-topic, as a question of how to get inside a DEC HSC70 > (IIRC) if you didn't have the right key. > > If that's off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial > electronics. I fully realize the lockpicking discussion started out on topic, that's why I didn't jump on it. I don't recall jumping on it till it went way off topic, as you noted that it did. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 21:36:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:36:21 -0600 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <00bb01c521fd$ac15f5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > YEs, many HP 'service manuals' were just > boardswapper guides, Hasn't been my experience anyways. Every piece of HP gear I have includes full schematics, detailed theory of operation, etc. There is one exception... a service manual on some of the very late 5.25 hard drives... no schematics there. Jay From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 21:39:54 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:39:54 -0500 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305173046.02231048@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305173046.02231048@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:53:21 -0800, Eric F. wrote: > (And what's with the designer(s) decision to use such an obscure battery type?) I guess the lab computer uses 5v CMOS devices and the 2x2.5V battery let them skip the voltage regulator. vax, 9000 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 21:25:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:25:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503060353.WAA05455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> ...can't you take two bog-standard peecee power supplies and connect >> ground of one to +12 of the other and get a 24V rail that way? I >> *thought* the output side was supposed to be isolated. > Isolated from the power line != isolated from ground > I would not be at all suprised to find that the 0V line on the output > side is in fact connected to mains ground. If that's the case, you > fairly obviously can't link 2 PSUs in series I just picked up a handy not-currently-in-use PSU and opened it up. The mains ground is connected to the chassis; the PC board mounting is via metal standoffs, and they rest on solder pads which are connected to the output ground wires. So you are correct - at least for that supply, and I have no reason to think it exceptional. But you probably could do fine, I'd guess, by just cutting the mains ground connection for one or the other supply, as appropriate. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From James at jdfogg.com Sat Mar 5 22:06:12 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:06:12 -0500 Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain > that didn't have more than one MX record. Except for someone > trying to run a service out of their house. To do so, is... well... > > Jay Well what? I'm on dynamic IP space with cable service and I have great uptime. I could use a secondary MX, I have the resources to do so. Perhaps I will. But it doesn't change the fact I have a good performance record. Also consider that a large number of small businesses are now on dynamic IP space and running mail servers. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 5 21:59:14 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:59:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503060407.XAA05556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Tony, I think you're missing something here. ISP's pretty much > always have secondary and tertiary mail servers. I work part-time for a local ISP. One of the things I've been working with them on is their email infrastructure. Interestingly (from the perspective of this conversation), one of the things they have been considering is dropping their secondary MX. They see the maintenance cost as higher than the redundancy benefit, and honestly, I don't think they're wrong. I've never before seen anything but spamware that gives up as soon as the scheme you outlined. > Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain that > didn't have more than one MX record. Which != more than one mailhost. My own, for example, has two MX records, but they both end up at the same host. (I'll be happy to explain why - ask me off-list....) > Except for someone trying to run a service out of their house. To do > so, is... well... ...yes? Is...unacceptable? Is...worth bouncing mail addressed to? Feel free to drop me from the list if you really feel that I am sinning that egregiously against the email system by running my own mailserver, and running only the one. (I won't _like_ it, but it's your list.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Mar 5 22:09:37 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 05 04:09:37 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503060409.AA21477@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain that didn't > have more than one MX record. For the record (no pun intended), I have no MX record at all. They are optional and unnecessary if the host receives its own mail. > Except for someone trying to run a service out > of their house. To do so, is... well... Harhan Engineering Co's physical facility is not a house. MS From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 5 22:28:50 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:28:50 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress References: Message-ID: <009f01c52205$00483440$0100a8c0@screamer> No, I'm implying that HP's very rarely need component level debugging. It seems your average HP 21MX will have a lot fewer hours on it than an 11/35 or an 11/34. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: Re: 11/45 progress >> >> Bummer as I have no spare cpu cards. But I guess at this point I still >> >> don't >> > >> > I am going to get you to repair that machine properly -- without >> > swapping >> > boards -- even if I have to get on the next p'lane across the Pond and >> > show you where to stick your 'scope probe ;-) >> >> Here here! >> >> And its about time too. >> >> Jay's been spoiled working with HP's too long, and the next thing he need >> to >> check is where he's left his o-scope. > > I hope you're not implying that HP machines can't be repaired properly > (to component level) as well. YEs, many HP 'service manuals' were just > boardswapper guides, but there are unofficial schematics of many HP > calculators (including desktops) available from Dave Colver at HPCC. > We've not attacked any minicomputers -- YET! > > -tony > From ericj at speakeasy.org Sat Mar 5 22:29:19 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: kdj11-sd eproms Message-ID: I recently attempted to modify a decserver board to use the 11/53 roms. I installed the pullup and burned the images into a pair of am27128A-2dc eproms, but when I powered up the board it couldn't pass test #1 with the "KDJ11-D/S 1.00" message. I reverified the contents of the eproms and thought that I must've damaged the board when installing the pullup. Just to be sure though, I remapped the 11/53 images with "cat 261E5.bin 261E5.bin > 1.bin", "cat 262E5.bin 262E5.bin > 2.bin", then erased the original 27256's and burned the new images into them. After reinstalling these I powered up, and the board came up okay: 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Commands are Help, Boot, List, Map, Test and Wrap. Type a command then press the RETURN key: So my question is, did I botch the pullup install or did I use the wrong eproms? What eproms should work in the kdj11-sd? The originals were am27256dc. My next step is to test a teac fd55gfr 149-u5 floppy drive for use as an rx33. It appears to have the correct jumpers, but I haven't seen it listed as one known to work. Can anyone confirm whether this model can be configured as an rx33? Thanks, -- Eric Josephson From elf at ucsd.edu Sat Mar 5 22:40:32 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:40:32 -0800 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305203641.02280950@popmail.ucsd.edu> James Fogg wrote: > It might not make a perfect solution, but you could > take 2 nicad cells (1.25V each) of similar diameter > and a shorter length (N size?) and place them in series > in shrink tubing to make a replacement cell. Yeah - I thought about that. Don't want to go there if I don't have to, though. (I did fail to mention in my original post that it requires 2 of these little beasts, thus making a 5V supply necessary.) > Also check out the oddball batteries available for > photo equipment. There's a lot of odd voltages in > that category, though you might have to slightly > modify the cell holder (widen it a bit). Yeah - thought about that, too. It is a fairly tight fit already, so widening the battery compartment doesn't look feasible. At this point, I'm thinking that if there isn't a direct replacement for this cell, I'll just pay the bucks to get it refurbished so it can use something more conveniently available. Appreciate the suggestions though! From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 5 22:45:07 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Mar 5, 5 09:32:56 pm" Message-ID: <200503060445.UAA16028@floodgap.com> > Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain that didn't > have more than one MX record. Except for someone trying to run a service out > of their house. To do so, is... well... I have two MXes, but I'm running my network from my apartment. Is that okay? The servers are in the dining room. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A battle avoided cannot be lost. -- Sun Tzu -------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 22:48:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:48:56 -0600 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <422A8BB8.8010500@oldskool.org> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > 8" drives have 77 tracks, PC-DOS uses 40 or 80 tracks. Only the 80 > track mode (5.25" HD - 1.2mb) comes close. > > Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. > > STOP IT!!!! Or, use a program like FDFORMAT to format your disks with /t:77. But yes, don't use DOS format if it won't take a non-40/80 argument. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 22:54:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:54:09 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <011e01c52208$88b1e5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MS wrote... > I run my own servers for > everything because I exercise my right to be totally independent from the > outside world. But Michael, what about... 1) The registrar who owns your domain (but allows you to register to use it)? 2) What about the telco owned POTS & datalines coming to your server, which they allow you to pay for the use of? 3) What about ARIN, who owns and controls the IP addresses you borrow? 4) What about your provider, who allows you net access? 5) What about your upstream tier1, who agrees to advertise your ip space via BGP? 5) What about the greedy mean corporation called the power company that you're associating yourself with by using their power to run your machines? Any of the above people can shut you off in the blink of an eye. I am not sure that's "independence". > I'll keep running when the rest of the world explodes in > the thermonuclear holocaust. Your server may well keep running. But it won't have anyone to talk to ;) > What makes you think that you have the right to impose your elitism on the > rest of the world? Just because you are rich and snobby enough to have > gobs of bandwidth and redundant servers and all that, why in the hell > should > everyone else? You think I'm elitist? Odd, the people who use that word are generally suprisingly intolerant, but they SO preach that word! I didn't require anything of anyone. You however, seem remarkably adamant about requiring ME to do something the way you want though. The reason I suggested that people who don't have the necessary setup to "do it right" - shouldn't do it - is because in most (but I admit, not all) cases by providing that service they are actually providing a disservice. Here's an analogy. Lets say a guy knows how to fly a plane. But he can't afford one. So he builds one out of popsicle sticks, and forces his friends to fly cross country with him in it. Never mind that he's endangering his fellow human beings. MAYBE he should just let those who are properly equipped do it. But to be more precise, I will certainly defend your right to run your own mailserver. But you certainly have no right to insist that I allow my mail server to talk to yours. It's sort of like the old phrase "Your right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose". If you want to run your own mail server, that's fine, you have every right! I encourage it as a learning experience. However, if you want your mail to be really reliable, maybe you should just set up your servers to access a POP account at your isp, instead of running a mail server? Just a wild thought. > downtime, what right do YOU have to impose on us that we have to spend > millions > of dollars on redundancy that we don't need? I have no right to impose that on you. But by the same token, I am also not obligated to have my mail server pass traffic to a mailserver that adversely affects mine. > We are concerned with *CLASSIC* computers here. It is extremely > hypocritical > of you to shut me out because I run my entire operation on CLASSIC > hardware > with CLASSIC software in the CLASSIC manner, You are accusing me of being against classic hardware? *giggle* > It entails following standards. RFC 1123, Requirements for Internet > Hosts, > says that you must retry mail for 4 days because the recipient has the > *RIGHT* to run a mail server that may occasionally go down for a day. Don't (mis)quote RFC's to me, I was thumbing through RFC's when you were in diapers. However, last I checked 1123 offered 4-5 days as a suggestion, not a requirement. In addition, I believe it acknowledges a need for a variety of adjustments to that schedule, particularly if the reason for delivery failure is known. More to the point... have you ever read the Bat book? Sendmail 101 says somewhere about "being a good net citizen", you should set up arrangements with other organizations to act as backup MX systems, so that you don't clog up other peoples queues when your server goes down. Thus, your very "independence" is at odds with considerate netizenship, to use your term. Ok, I'm off to bed. My apologies to the list for feeding the bears, I'll return to my levelheaded self tomorrow after sleep :) Regards, Jay West From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 22:57:09 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:57:09 -0600 Subject: The Solution (was: Re: List etiquette) In-Reply-To: <00b401c521fd$653594e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00b401c521fd$653594e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <422A8DA5.5030302@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: >> If that's off-topic, then so are discussions of, say, digitial >> electronics. > > I fully realize the lockpicking discussion started out on topic, that's > why I didn't jump on it. I don't recall jumping on it till it went way > off topic, as you noted that it did. As a list owner myself for the Software Collector's Mailing List (I too have wrestled with mailman, so I feel Jay's pain), I think it's an unavoidable fact that some threads will be off-topic no matter what people think, write, or do. Charter/FAQ or not, there always have been and always will be off-topic threads in any discussion forum, whether live or virtual. The most effective way to combat this behavior is to ignore off-topic threads. To wit: You say you want to stop cctalk/cctech from degenerating into a PC support list? Then imagine what would have happened if the original message had *simply been ignored and gone unanswered.* Same result (modern computer/OS questions avoided), but without all the drama. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From elf at ucsd.edu Sat Mar 5 22:57:48 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:57:48 -0800 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305204536.0227d878@popmail.ucsd.edu> 9000 VAX wrote: > I guess the lab computer uses 5v CMOS devices and the > 2x2.5V battery let them skip the voltage regulator. That does have rhyme & reason to it -- yes. (And you are correct in that it takes 2 of these 2.5V lithium cells -- I failed to mention that in my original post.) I suppose it just couldn't have been foreseen by them that SAFT would discontinue manufacturing this particular battery at some point down the road. Still, though, wouldn't manufacturing a device which relies on a sole provider for its power cells raise a flag or two during the design process? It is not like these batteries are as common as dirt -- like your typical Duracell "AA". (Then again, I'm no hardware engineer, so I'm not familiar with how these decisions are made.) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 23:08:00 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:08:00 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200503060407.XAA05556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <014f01c5220a$793968b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >> Except for someone trying to run a service out of their house. To do >> so, is... well... > > ...yes? Is...unacceptable? Is...worth bouncing mail addressed to? > Feel free to drop me from the list if you really feel that I am sinning > that egregiously against the email system by running my own mailserver, > and running only the one. (I won't _like_ it, but it's your list.) Not unacceptable. Unreliable. Trying to do it off a line with dynamic address assignment - screwing up the interplay between DNS and sendmail, fighting DSL bottlenecks at the DSLAM, etc. etc. Is simply not the best way to run a mail server. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it actually. I'm merely saying that when it's done under those conditions, it's hard to complain about sporadic problems.The people who do it under those conditions will have to accept that they will have problems, and it's certainly their right to choose to do so. And as per my previous email, no, not work bouncing mail addressed to. Jay West From jismay at unixboxen.net Sat Mar 5 23:15:50 2005 From: jismay at unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:15:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <695205920@web.de> References: <695205920@web.de> Message-ID: <32853.68.5.96.16.1110086150.squirrel@webmail.unixboxen.com> > Where are the young people on the list ? ;-) Right here of course :-) > I'll turn 23 in a month and have been working on oldish and "cool" > computers for approx. 7 years now. Born in the septemper year of 1980, so I guess that makes me 24 now. > Started with a Philips P3200 (286, heavy stuff) which infected me with the > bug... > I can't talk of nostalgia as my machines are mostly from the time, I > couldn't walk yet... DEC and CDC stuff, > but also some SUNs from the time I started going to college. I had my first exposure to computers somewhere around the age of 4. My grandfather liked to have the latest and greatest (although he was never the best at actually using it), so at four I had access to a TI99/4A used mostly for games, although I did get into some basic programming later on. I moved on to a series of Tandy 1000-series machines and the rest was history. These days I have a modest assembly of SUN stuff (SparcStation 1/2/IPX/10/20/5, SparcServer 670MP, SUN 3/280 and 3/80) a few small DEC machines (VS2000, DecStation 3100, AlphaServer 2100) a few small Macs, and the usual assortment of Wintel cruft. I would have to say I am a mix of hardware/software guy. I enjoy fixing small things, although my skills generally limit me to the board-swapping that Tony so hates ;-) but I am always looking to expand my horizons. Mostly, I love playing around with the hardware/software as a whole just doing cool things with the software can be a lot of fun. PS If anyone on the list knows of a good place to find a TI99/4A complete with PEM, etc... To Sleep, Perchance to Dream. For in that sleep of death what dreams may come when we shuffle off this mortal coil must give us pause From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 23:20:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:20:06 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <011e01c52208$88b1e5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <011e01c52208$88b1e5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <422A9306.6050003@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > However, last I checked 1123 offered 4-5 days as a > suggestion, not a requirement. It is indeed a suggestion and not a requirement. However, 35 minutes is, well... a pipe dream compared to the real world. Remember: 99.9% uptime (a reasonable if not exceptional goal) is still 43 minutes of downtime a month. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Mar 5 23:13:40 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:13:40 -0500 Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <01C521E1.E5F62840@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> From: "Jay West" Subject: Re: minor list changes Sellam wrote.... ... > Can you please change that to something like 3 times with 2 hour > intervals? Or at least allow it to try more than twice. This still > doesn't help someone who has a 24 hour server outage thanks to their > stupid ISP (like I've been experiencing lately). Ok, I can do that. But bear in mind that providing for a particular persons mailserver to have an extended outage, means that because of YOUR outage, 14 other people won't get their email for a while. How far do I try to accomodate one person at the expense of others? I'm still considering options.... ---------------------------------------- Well, if I had been one of those 14 people today it wouldn't have mattered; as a matter of fact, *my* ISP (a public commercial ISP in a major city (Toronto)) was down for most of the day today while they moved their equipment. Even two of our major banks had their respective Canada-wide credit card & on-line banking networks go down for almost a day recently, so it does happen to the best of them. But I understand your problem, and BTW, let me join the list of people expressing their appreciation for the time & effort you put into running this list. mike From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 5 23:23:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:23:19 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <32853.68.5.96.16.1110086150.squirrel@webmail.unixboxen.com> References: <695205920@web.de> <32853.68.5.96.16.1110086150.squirrel@webmail.unixboxen.com> Message-ID: <422A93C7.5020309@oldskool.org> J Brian Ismay wrote: > Mostly, I love playing around with the hardware/software as a whole just > doing cool things with the software can be a lot of fun. I am like this too. I am a big fan of finding clever software tricks that can wring more out of the hardware (more performance, more colors, more sound, etc.). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cb at mythtech.net Sat Mar 5 23:25:46 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:25:46 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: >Is this one of those laws where if you're caught in the middle of the >night on a stranger's doorstip with a set of lockpicks then you're >comitting a crime (which IMHO is quite reaosnable) but if you happen to >be at a friend's house repairing a PDP11/o5 then you do have a legal >reason to have said lockpicks? Yup, that is exactly the kind of law it is. It really isn't enforced by itself (they don't round people up for owning lock picks), it is just used as an aid to arrest/detain someone that you have a really strong hunch is up to no good (and as a way to confiscate the tools from someone that you are sure plans to use them to commit a crime... this is done in inner city schools when kids pass thru metal detectors and are found to have various items that have perfectly legit uses... but you know the kid doesn't have it for one of those reasons... box cutters are the most common item) -chris From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 00:26:24 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:26:24 EST Subject: Free Stuff (last call) Message-ID: Last call for NetWare 2.2 (286+) disks and manuals (includes 5 user-serialization disk) HP MDP RS-232 full modem (8 port) SyQuest 44MB drive (internal SCSI) Iomega ZIP-100 SCSI external, no P/S IBM Buttons and Dials, P/N 6094 020 and 6094 010) D-15 (Mac type) to HD-15 (VGA) (11 pins) cable IBM P-200 20" 13W3 Trinitron monitor and 13W3 cable (runs on Sun, SGI, PC/Mac, RS/6000 ...) PowerMac 7200/75 logic board Compaq ProLiant Ultra/Wide drive sled (SCA to card-edge) From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 00:32:27 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:32:27 -0500 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305204536.0227d878@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305204536.0227d878@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:57:48 -0800, Eric F. wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: > > > I guess the lab computer uses 5v CMOS devices and the > > 2x2.5V battery let them skip the voltage regulator. > > That does have rhyme & reason to it -- yes. > > (And you are correct in that it takes 2 of these 2.5V lithium cells -- I > failed to mention that in my original post.) I guess the computer is pure CMOS, no TTL and that's the reason why it is designed to use the expensive Lithium battery. If so, I would guess that it can work with 4.8V (3.6V +1.2V), or 5.1V(3.6V+1.5V) too. There are cheap 3.6V Lithium AA size batteries. What you need to do is to add a 1.2V or 1.5V battery, and that is easy. I have just bought two from goldmine-elec. I measured one and it had 3.70V open voltage. (You need to cut the leads though; It is a SAFT brand!) http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G14788 vax, 9000 > > I suppose it just couldn't have been foreseen by them that SAFT would > discontinue manufacturing this particular battery at some point down the road. > > Still, though, wouldn't manufacturing a device which relies on a sole > provider for its power cells raise a flag or two during the design process? > It is not like these batteries are as common as dirt -- like your typical > Duracell "AA". (Then again, I'm no hardware engineer, so I'm not familiar > with how these decisions are made.) > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Mar 6 00:44:57 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:44:57 -0800 Subject: Free Stuff (last call) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503052244.57070.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 05 March 2005 22:26, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: --snip-- > IBM Buttons and Dials, P/N 6094 020 and 6094 010) I'd be interested in the above IBM Buttons and Dials... Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From technobug at comcast.net Sun Mar 6 00:53:27 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:53:27 -0700 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: <200503060257.j262vuuM020426@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503060257.j262vuuM020426@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:53:21 -0800 "Eric F." Inquired: [...] > I have a hand held lab computer (manufactured & purchased in 1990) > which > takes quite an unusual battery. > > The battery is the size of a regular "AA", but is 2.5V Lithium. The > company who used to manufacture them (SAFT) no longer does so. The SAFT > battery model # is "LCP 6". I'm straining to remember if the 2.5V Lithium batteries were rechargeable. The pictures of the device (below) do not indicate if there is a charging port... Current technology for primary cells is 3 V. [...] > http://home.san.rr.com/instep/labpartner-front.jpg (~58KB) > http://home.san.rr.com/instep/labpartner-back.jpg (~44KB) I have a number of odd instruments that have taken all sorts of batteries that are no longer in use or, if available, would take a large part of my net worth. An old portable radio with a 90V battery comes to mind. My solution to the problem has been to use a regular battery that will fit in the space along with a buck or boost converter to generate the total voltage required. In your case I would use a regular alkaline AA in one compartment and a boost circuit in the other. Your use might not be quite as long as that of a Lithium, but alkalines are cheap. [...] > (And what's with the designer(s) decision to use such an obscure > battery type?) I, like that designer, have yet to find a good source of hindsight to use when designing in components :-)) CRC From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 6 00:55:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:55:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8' drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <33239.64.169.63.74.1110076926.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote about 8-inch drives: > > Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? > > That would be the standard format for DD (MFM) 256-byte sectors, > or SD (FM) 128-byte sectors. But if you set the PC BIOS to > believe it is a 5.25" HD disk, it should think it's PC 1.2M format, > 15 sectors of 512 bytes. It will also think that there are 80 > tracks/side, while the drive only supports 77, so it's not surprising > that there were problems on the last tracks. Ok, makes sense. So the new calculation is: 107520 / 512 = 210 / 15 = 14. The second time I tried to format a disk under DOS (to demonstrate to Mr. Johnny Lawson) I heard way more recalibrations than I did the first time. 14 tracks worth sounds about right. > It never would have occurred to me that you'd try to use MS-DOS to > format 8-inch disks. I thought you were just trying to read disks. Well, I needed some way to test whether the setup was working. It basically is. Now, on to reading those CP/M disks. It was fun booting my PC into DOS 6.22 off an 8" drive though. > Anyhow, older versions of MS-DOS allowed you to tell FORMAT > how many tracks to use, though I'm not sure it was actually > willing to accept arbitrary values. And I'm not sure what > DOS 6.22 allows. I experimented very briefly with this the last time I tried getting this to work but not enough to come up with anything conclusive. DOS does seem to expect a certain combination of "sane" values. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 6 00:56:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:56:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. > > STOP IT!!!! M'kay. > You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a > driver for 8". Why? It works fine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 6 01:01:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain that didn't > have more than one MX record. Except for someone trying to run a service out > of their house. To do so, is... well... Having a data center to play with makes you spoiled :) I've run my own mail server on the same little PentiumPro system for at least 6-7 years now without many problems. In fact, it runs pretty much problem free. No need for redundant mail servers. And I certainly don't want to trust my mail to a third party. I like controlling my stuff...that way I can be sure that if it gets f-d up, it's my fault and not the fault of some moron whom I then have to rely upon to fix it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 6 01:27:52 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:27:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Free Stuff (last call) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503060729.CAA24608@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Subject: Free Stuff (last call) > Last call for [...] Where is this stuff? I could be tempted by the monitor, but it's not clear it'd be worth the cost & bother of shipping if it's very far away from me (=Montreal). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Mar 6 01:44:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:44:01 -0600 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working References: Message-ID: <001801c52220$504c1b30$6e92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:56 AM > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. >> >> STOP IT!!!! > > M'kay. > >> You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a >> driver for 8". > > Why? It works fine. PC's assume the drive has 80 tracks, 8" drives only have 77 tracks. The drive has a sensor that limits track 00 but no sensor for track 77. When you format the disk it starts at track 00 and tries to go to track 79 (80 tracks total). After track 76 (the 77th track) the stepper motor tries to continue to step. This can damage the head or head alignment. Some drives (such as Persci's) can do significant physical damage to the drive. You may want to clean your drive heads again if you started having more errors. Also clean the rails the head assembly rides on. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 6 01:34:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:34:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <014f01c5220a$793968b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200503060407.XAA05556@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <014f01c5220a$793968b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503060751.CAA24703@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Except for someone trying to run a service out of their house. To >>> do so, is... well... >> [...]? > Trying to do it off a line with dynamic address assignment - ...which != "out of their house"; for example, my mailserver is in my condo, but addressed out of a statically assigned /28 - which is SWIPped and has rDNS delegated to me. > fighting DSL bottlenecks at the DSLAM, etc. etc. So far this hasn't proven to be a problem. Averaging over the last 30 days, I have used 3158.7 bytes/sec incoming, 2235.1 bytes/sec outgoing (both figures in error by less than 1 unit in the last place shown, assuming netstat is telling the truth about byte counts). Certainly my DSLAM could in principle be maxed out, but that seems unlikely; more likely would be that my wire would be maxed out, something that doesn't seem to happen in practice - at least not unexpectedly. (I have for example deliberately redlined it when stress-testing it or the networks adjacent to it; I don't count that.) > Is simply not the best way to run a mail server. Actually, for me, I believe it is the best way to run a mailserver. That is, of course, taking into account issues such as cost. Yes, if cost were not an issue, I agree there would be ways in which it could be run better. But I daresay the same could be said of almost any mailserver in existence. > I'm not saying people shouldn't do it actually. I'm merely saying > that when it's done under those conditions, it's hard to complain > about sporadic problems. Perhaps - but my experience over the past few years has been that I have fewer problems inbound to my mailserver than through other mailservers which forward to me. Now, that could be just a question of what I view as "problems", and where I see the problem as lying when I see a problem as present. But since it's my mailserver, it's my metric of goodness too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 6 03:48:25 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:48:25 GMT Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: "Eric F." "2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find?" (Mar 5, 17:53) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305173046.02231048@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <10503060948.ZM16692@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 5 2005, 17:53, Eric F. wrote: > The battery is the size of a regular "AA", but is 2.5V Lithium. The > company who used to manufacture them (SAFT) no longer does so. The SAFT > battery model # is "LCP 6". > > Picture of battery (and a regular "AA" for comparison): > > http://home.san.rr.com/instep/saft-lcp6.jpg (~42KB) Lithium/thionyl chloride cells are 3.6V, and lithium/iron disuplhide are 1.5V per cell, so it's probably lithium/manganese dioxide which is usually described as 3V. Varta make an AA size Li/Mn02 with PCB tags, which you might be able to cut off. Sorry, I don't know the part number, but it's still shown as current in my CPC[1] catalogue. Sonnenschein, SAFT, Maxell, and others also make 3.6V lithium AA cells, if that's any good. They're (or were) used in a few computers, including Compaq Portables and some older Tandon and Toshiba models. Some companies make 1/2-AA size cells. They're usually 3.6V lithium/thionyl chloride and commonly used in Apple Macs, but I think I've seen 1/2-AA 1.2V NiCd or NiMh ones as well (2/3-AA are quite common). [1] CPC, aka Combined Precision Components, is a supplier of electronics and other items in the UK. However, it's part of the Farnell Group along with Farnell Electronic Components and Newark so you might be able to find the same things on Farnell's US web site. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 04:08:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:08:09 +0000 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>One of the dangers (to bring things around to being on-topic for this >>list) is that people will start running Linux or a BSD exclusively on >>their vintage hardware. A lot of the character of the vintage system is >>lost when it has the same BASH prompt as any old PC Clone someone bought >>at a garage sale. > > > For much te same reason I am actively against running PNX (PERQ Unix, > basically a V7 derrivative) on classic PERQs. > > If you want a unix box, then get a unix box (e.g. a PC running linux or > *BSD). IMHO a PERQ should run POS (the original PERQ operating system, > written mostly in a very extended Pascal). POS is better for running > user-written microcode too... > > -tony > That said, I *do* want to run some sort of Unix on my PDP-11/73. Probably won't boot it that often, though. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 04:44:06 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:44:06 +0000 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503060353.WAA05455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503060353.WAA05455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <422ADEF6.2000902@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >>>...can't you take two bog-standard peecee power supplies and connect >>>ground of one to +12 of the other and get a 24V rail that way? I >>>*thought* the output side was supposed to be isolated. >> >>Isolated from the power line != isolated from ground > > >>I would not be at all suprised to find that the 0V line on the output >>side is in fact connected to mains ground. If that's the case, you >>fairly obviously can't link 2 PSUs in series > > > I just picked up a handy not-currently-in-use PSU and opened it up. > The mains ground is connected to the chassis; the PC board mounting is > via metal standoffs, and they rest on solder pads which are connected > to the output ground wires. So you are correct - at least for that > supply, and I have no reason to think it exceptional. > > But you probably could do fine, I'd guess, by just cutting the mains > ground connection for one or the other supply, as appropriate. NNNGGHH!!! Danger! Crazy behaviour! If you're really stuck for a 24V supply, you could try two smallish deep-cycle batteries, like UPS or motorcycle batteries. Gordon. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Mar 6 04:54:08 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:54:08 -0000 Subject: Amateur electronics questions, but almost on-topic References: Message-ID: <001501c5223a$dacf6680$0200a8c0@geoff> > > (2) (flame risk) My Tek 555 popped and blew a fuse when I had it plugged in > > last. I disassembled the PS and cleaned off the dust, and I want to test it by > > itself, but the power-on relay won't close. Any hints, or is this like > > amplifiers where the tubes need a load? > Why not post on the tekscopes forum , you should get the definitive answer on there. tekscopes at yahoogroups.com Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 04/03/05 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 6 05:59:47 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:59:47 GMT Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: 11/45 progress" (Mar 6, 0:41) References: Message-ID: <10503061159.ZM16908@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 6 2005, 0:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Tony wrote... > > > My idea was going to be to hang a terminal off the card (assuming you > > > have an RS232 lead and can decode the word foramt and baud rate settings > > > [1] and then try writing to the transmit data registers at 777566 or > > > 777656. See if you can transmit chracters to the terminal. > > I have the appropriate cable from the card to mate & lock, I'll cobble > > That sounds like a current loop cable. Do you have a terminal with a 20mA > loop input? That's my thought too, but Tony beat me to it. > The RS232 buffer (and the companion 1489 receiver) were not fitted on all > versions of the DL11. It's worth checking if your card as them, if not, > they can always be fitted (I think all PCBs have the pads and tracks for > them), but you may need to fit some extra passives too. If you need to do > this. I'll dig out my prints and tell you just what to do. > > If you do have the RS232 buffer, then you can connect the output of that > section (which is routed to a pin on the BERG connector) to the RS232 > receive input of a terminal. It's easy to add the parts; I've done it a couple of times. AFAIR, to get the full version, it's three RS232 chips, half a dozen resistors, and a capacitor. Maybe a diode. In case it helps, here's the pinout of the Berg connector, and the connections to make an RS232 cable and a 20mA loop cable. The "interlock" may require some explanation... The seril out from the UART is connected to both the RS232 and 20mA buffers, so when it transmits, it does so on both. However, you don't want both to be connected to the UART receiver at the same time, so you have to jumper *either* the 20mA receiver *or* the RS232 receiver to the UART, and this is what the "interlock" does: Numbers are DB25 pin numbers (for the BC05C) or Mate-N-Lok pin numbers (for 7008360): Berg pin Signal BC05C 7008360 A Ground 1 Prot.Ground (blue/wht) - ground B Ground 7 Signal Ground (brwn/wht) C 25 Force Busy (red/org) D 13 Secondary CTS (org/red) E TTL serial in - interlock in - interlock in F EIA serial out 2 Transmit Data (wht/blue) H 20mA interlock - interlock out J EIA serial in 3 Receive Data (org/wht) K +20mA serial in 7 + Rec.Data (green) L 24 External clk (brwn/red) M EIA interlock - interlock out N 15 serial clk xmit (grey/grn) P 19 Secondary RTS (lbue/blk) R 17 serial clk recv (grey) S -20mA serial in 3 - Rec.Data (red) T 5 Clear To Send (grn/wht) U V EIA RTS 4 Request To Send (wht/org) W 10 -ve power (wht/grey) X 22 Ring (blk/org) Y 9 +ve power (grey/wht) Z 6 Data Set Ready (wht/grn) AA +20mA serial out 5 + Trans.Data (white) BB 8 Data Carrier Detect (wht/brwn) CC DD EIA DTR 20 Data Terminal Ready (blk/blu) EE -20mA RDR Run 3 - Reader Run (black) FF 11 202 Secondary TD (blu/red) HH JJ 12 202 Secondary RD (red/blu) KK -20mA serial out 2 - Trans.Data (black) LL 14 EIA Secondary TD (grey/red) MM 21 Signal Quality (org/blk) NN 16 EIA Secondary RD (red/brwn) PP +20mA RDR Run 6 + Reader Run (black) RR 23 Signal Rate (grn/blk) SS TT +5V DC UU ground VV ground -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GOOI at oce.nl Sun Mar 6 06:34:29 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:34:29 +0100 Subject: 11/45 progress Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A011135D1@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hmm, I have sent this to the list earlier. Perhaps it did not make it ... The M7800-YA is the current-loop only version. > Jay wrote about a DL11: > If I exam 776500, I get a 200, > but anytime I store a value and read it back, there's all > zero's in the data register. I will dig up my notes getting characters in and out a M7800 in my 11/35 resurrection using the front panel several years ago. This is also an advice: make notes of *everything* you do on a system, no matter how trivial at this time. Changing a wire, trying some toggle in tests on the console, behaviour, measured voltages on pins, etc. If problems occur later you can go back and do all tests from your notes. That's why I can write my tests with the M7800 when I get home (in a few hours from now). - Henk, PA8PDP. These are a few of my notes. Console board: 2 versions. M7800 and M7800-YA M7800: Xtal = 4608 kHz, has 1448/1449 jumpers: A3,A4,A5,A7,A9 open: A6,A8,A10 base address = 776500 baudrate = 1200 Bd. M7800-YA: Xtal = 1152 kHz, no 1448/1449 (20mA current loop only) jumpers: A0,A7 open: A4,A5,A6,A8,A9,A10 base address = 777560 (console) baudrate = 1200 Bd. console registers: RCSR 777560 RBUF 777562 XCSR 777564 XBUF 777566 Hit the key "1" of the keyboard If RCSR contains 0200 it means that a character is received. To check this: 1) set the SR to 777560. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777560 3) press EXAM 4) the DATA LEDs show 000200 RBUF should contain 061 (ASCII "1"). To check this: 1) set the SR to 777562. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777562 3) press EXAM 4) the DATA LEDs show 000061 Load 065 in XBUF --> the screen should show a "5". Operation: 1) set the SR to 777566. 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777566 3) set the SR to 000065 4) press DEP Simple test of the CPU. 1) set the SR to 777570 (the switch register address). 2) press LOAD ADDRESS --> the ADDRESS LEDs show 777570 3) set the SR to 000777 (this is BRA . branch to myself) 4) press START The ADDRESS LEDs show 777572. CONSOLE LED is off, RUN, BUS, PROC LEDs are on. When you press HALT, CONSOLE LED goes on. - Henk, PA8PDP. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Mar 6 07:30:09 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:30:09 +1100 Subject: Visiting Bristol UK Message-ID: <8d853f0ae2ec64383ed835e4f479a4d7@kerberos.davies.net.au> Can anyone recommend some Classic Computer related things to do near Bristol UK? I'm flying in from Australia in early April for some training but I'll have at least one weekend to kill so any suggestions of things to see near Bristol (I'll be without car which will be an interestingly enough concept in itself!). At the risk of upsetting the OT Gods, if anyone in the UK can recommend a cheapish, reliable ISP that I can dial into during the stay, a personal e-mail with some detail would be appreciated - the company approved hotels don't have broadband available. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 07:43:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:43:58 +0000 Subject: Honda S800 (was installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: <01C52144.8F560840@ns1.syne-post.com> References: <01C52144.8F560840@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <1110116638.24111.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 05:28 -0500, M H Stein wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: Re installing XP on Sony > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > "well, it was a polite > > question, with a simple answer, so why not just answer it?" > > Any suggestions for a starting point for the main jet sizes for > replacing the 4 Keihin carbs on a Honda S800 with 2 DCOE Webers? > --------------------------------------- > ROTFL! uh huh :) > Interesting point, though: I owned one and may even still have the service > manual somewhere; alas, that won't help you with your high-performance > mods :) Try the British Racing Drivers Club (google for addy) - I've seen a few people over here running S800's in classic racing, and the club should be able to put you in touch with the relevant members. In case that was anything like a semi-serious question too ;) J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 07:47:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:47:03 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00e301c521dc$6021b270$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00e301c521dc$6021b270$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1110116823.24111.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 17:38 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote.... > > How about also sending a copy of the FAQ to new subscribers? I know it's > > not much (I swear I'll put time into updating it if I ever get some free > > time) but it's something. > I'm not positive, but I don't believe mailman will send an attachment to a > subscriber. I can include specific text, but the entire faq is a bit much to > stuff in the "welcome to the list" email. But, what I CAN do is include a > link to the faq in the new subscriber welcome message. Can we also *please* have the following two in the welcome message: 1) This is an international list, so please don't start talking about local (or country-wide) issues as though they affect all members. 2) Please state your location when offering anything for sale / free / trade. Those two really need beating into people with a big stick with disturbing regularity :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 07:49:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:49:26 +0000 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1110116966.24093.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 19:54 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > It was a survival show and the person who drove his car into the lake tried > very hard to open the door. He kicked it, etc, etc. It wont budge. He > finally took out his centerpunch and broke the side window. He waited for > the water to rush into the car and then he swam out of the window. So, based > on that scenario, I doubt it would be possible to even open it a little > bit... So without the centre punch, don't you just wait for the car to almost fill up and then open the door? Seems that the main advantage of the centre punch is for when the doors won't open due to damage, though (and presumably you're screwed if the doors are locked and you have central locking) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 08:00:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:00:40 +0000 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? Message-ID: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Unearthed a Sun 2/120 yesterday (CPU cabinet plus disk cabinet plus mono screen) but unfortunately no sign of a keyboard or mouse. Anyone know if a later Sun keyboard and mouse can be wired via an adapter to work? We've got a couple of Sun 3 keyboards & mice kicking around which would be enough to test the machine out at least. Both the keyboard and mouse connectors on the Sun 2 are 6-pin RJ45-style connectors (they're probably not called RJ45 in this case as they're smaller, but you get the idea). Actually, I have a feeling that the mouse on our Sun 3/50 uses the same connector (where it plus into the back of the keyboard) so that might be the exact right part. The keyboard on the 3/50's a DB15 though... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 08:54:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:54:12 +0000 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> OK, thinking about getting a catweasel board for the museum. 1) What's the official homepage for the board? A google search suggested http://www.jschoenfeld.com but that site seems horribly incomplete and out of date. 2) Opinions of the board would be much appreciated, particularly in the context of what it *can't* do, how easy it is to code for, how easy it is to get hold of others' code to handle a particular format (rather than reinventing the wheel), how well the board copes with media errors etc. The other option's the Torch Manta board, for which I do at least have full schematics, PAL equations etc. - downside being that it'll only handle FM/MFM data (and as mentioned on the list in the past, there isn't even one particular standard of MFM). We must have around a thousand different machines covering a *lot* of different manufacturers, hence being able to cope with hard & soft sectored disks and all manner of encodings is important. In a lot of cases, getting the machines up and running might be a long-term goal, so preservation of the media using 'alien' hardware is an issue. cheers Jules From wacarder at usit.net Sun Mar 6 09:30:10 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23 ODT question - SUCCESS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It comes up with an octal address (177something) > > followed by the @ prompt. I'm used to unibus > > M9312 console emulator prompts and the 11/03 > > prompt where you can type in a two character > > code for a supported device and it will attempt > > to boot that device (ie DL, DX, etc). > > It sounds like it either doesn't have a bootstrap or there's a problem > somewhere. Are you sure all the cards are plugged in? Any gaps in the > bus? > > Assuming all is fine, try 173000G at the prompt to jump into the > bootstrap. If it comes up, you should know what to do from there ;) I actually was having a stupid attack. After looking up the codes on the red LEDs on the bootstrap board, I determined that the problem was that the halt switch was on. After setting it to the run position, it boots to the START? prompt. I can boot off an RT11 pack in both the RL02 drives. Both RL02 drives seem to work fine. On the RX02 dual drive unit, drive 0 works fine and can read/write/format diskettes. Drive 1 (DY1) seems to have problems and makes a constant clicking sound any time I try to read or format a diskette, although I thought I was able to successfully attempt to read a non-RT11 diskette in DY1 earlier. Ashley From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 6 10:45:32 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:45:32 -0800 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: >2) Opinions of the board would be much appreciated, particularly in the >context of what it *can't* do, how easy it is to code for, how easy it >is to get hold of others' code to handle a particular format (rather >than reinventing the wheel), how well the board copes with media errors >etc. I bought the Zorro 2 version of the board for my Amiga years ago, based in part on the fact that they advertised all these different formats it could read. What they failed to mention was that drivers only really existed for Commodore 64 disks (you could also read PC and Mac disks). I was seriously ticked off. I think with the PCI model, especially in a Linux box, you might have better luck. I've actually considered buying a PCI version in spite of my bad experience with the Zorro 2 model. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 6 12:21:43 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:21:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <32846.64.169.63.74.1110133303.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > if you run a mail server you need to be a good net citizen about it. Michael wrote: > What makes you think that you have the right to impose your elitism on the > rest of the world? He isn't. He's imposing his standards on this mailing list, in order to solve a particular problem. He's even indicated that he's willing to make some provision to accomodate people who have said that they will be inconvenienced, though he's not able to do so immediately. If you are unable to run your mail server with sufficent uptime to meet Jay's definition of "good net citizen", or don't wish to do so, you're free to start your own mailing list, since as you yourself have said (in capital letters, no less) you have "SOVEREIGNTY". > Just because you are rich and snobby enough to have > gobs of bandwidth and redundant servers and all that, why in the hell > should everyone else? That's completely uncalled for. Eric From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Mar 6 12:35:39 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:35:39 -0800 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> (Jules Richardson's message of "Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:00:40 +0000") References: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503061835.j26IZdx7098530@lots.reanimators.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone know if a later Sun keyboard and mouse can be wired via an > adapter to work? We've got a couple of Sun 3 keyboards & mice kicking > around which would be enough to test the machine out at least. Electrically, yes. Sun made adapters for the Sun 3 DA15 keyboard/mouse connector, one that let you plug in a Type 2 keyboard and mouse, and another for a Type 4 keyboard and mouse. Both passive. I used to use a Type 2 keyboard on a 3/60 through one of these adapters. A co-worker had a 3/60 which had been fitted with a Type 4 keyboard using one of the other adapters. Sun did ship some Type 3 mice with RJ11-like plugs that had little golden studs out the sides so they wouldn't fit the RJ11-like jack on the back of the Sun 2s. I'm not sure what this intended to do, keep you from plugging the mouse into a telephone jack perhaps. -Frank McConnell From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 12:51:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:32 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:08:09 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>One of the dangers (to bring things around to being on-topic for this > >>list) is that people will start running Linux or a BSD exclusively on > >>their vintage hardware. > > > > If you want a unix box, then get a unix box (e.g. a PC running linux or > > *BSD). IMHO a PERQ should run POS... > > That said, I *do* want to run some sort of Unix on my PDP-11/73. > Probably won't boot it that often, though. Me, too, but at least in this one case, while there are several "classic" DEC operating systems for PDP-11s, the history of UNIX and the history of the PDP-11 are intertwined; it's not just a forcing of some modern codebase to fit on an ancient platform. Additionally, at least some of us (myself for sure) have run UNIX on the PDP-11 when it was still current or semi-current (in my case, I had 2.9BSD tapes nearly 20 years ago, trying to afford a platform with enough disk space to get it to run - the closest I ever got was an 11/24 with two RL02 - I loaded it, but had issues with enough disk space to rebuild the kernel). This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the 'classicalness', IMHO. -ethan P.S. - I did just think of another UNIX case where I think it's appropriate on classic hardware - BSD or Ultrix on a Unibus VAX. I got my start with UNIX on an 11/750 in 1984. My first UNIX install was Ultrix-32 v1.1 on an 11/730 in 1986. VMS is great, but there's room for UNIX, too. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 6 13:10:51 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:10:51 -0500 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422B55BB.6090904@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, I wouldn't up rather disappointed myself as well... I bought the ISA version and was hoping to eliminate the need to have to keep reading ST formatted disks into my ST and null-modeming them over to my PC, but instead to install a seperate 3.5" to the Catweasel and just natively read them in, it recognizes the disks, but won't copy the data, nice hardware, worthless without software support and after all these years still nothing much except some 3rd party TRS-DOS drivers have been written. I have a ton of Amiga Quarterback disks I'd love to read in with it, but looks like that's not happening either. Curt Zane H. Healy wrote: >> 2) Opinions of the board would be much appreciated, particularly in the >> context of what it *can't* do, how easy it is to code for, how easy it >> is to get hold of others' code to handle a particular format (rather >> than reinventing the wheel), how well the board copes with media errors >> etc. > > > I bought the Zorro 2 version of the board for my Amiga years ago, > based in part on the fact that they advertised all these different > formats it could read. What they failed to mention was that drivers > only really existed for Commodore 64 disks (you could also read PC and > Mac disks). I was seriously ticked off. > > I think with the PCI model, especially in a Linux box, you might have > better luck. I've actually considered buying a PCI version in spite > of my bad experience with the Zorro 2 model. > > Zane > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 6 07:26:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:26:38 -0500 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305203641.02280950@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050306082638.00944100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:40 PM 3/5/05 -0800, you wrote: >James Fogg wrote: > > > It might not make a perfect solution, but you could > > take 2 nicad cells (1.25V each) of similar diameter > > and a shorter length (N size?) and place them in series > > in shrink tubing to make a replacement cell. > >Yeah - I thought about that. Don't want to go there if I don't have to, though. > >(I did fail to mention in my original post that it requires 2 of these >little beasts, thus making a 5V supply necessary.) Then why don't you squeeze in a LDO 5 regulator and install two standard 3 volt Lithium batteries? Joe From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Mar 6 13:36:47 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:36:47 +0000 Subject: Visiting Bristol UK In-Reply-To: <8d853f0ae2ec64383ed835e4f479a4d7@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <8d853f0ae2ec64383ed835e4f479a4d7@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <422B5BCF.6030406@gifford.co.uk> Huw Davies wrote: > Can anyone recommend some Classic Computer related things to do near > Bristol UK? I can suggest a few geeky things (Industrial Museum, Concorde Museum, various junk shops) but not a great deal specifically Classic Computing. Apart from the Stoke Gifford Computer Museum, of course :-) -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 13:02:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Mar 6, 5 02:35:26 am Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > > The above is a rant. It is only a rant. If this had been a serious > > message, the attitude presented would have been drastically different. > > This concludes our test of the Rant Line. We now return you to your > > regularly scheduled list. > > Well, it IS a serious matter for ME. If Jay is going to make this list > hostile to people who actually run their entire business operations on > Classic computers in the Classic manner (and exercise their right to > use their own servers and not someone else's for sovereignty reasons), Actually, I don't run my own mail server, and nor do I intend to. Doing so on dial-up (so I certainly can't be connected to the outside world all the time) would seem to be totally stupid. No, I trust the mail servers at my ISP. And they've been darn good so far (as I said, perhaps half a dozen unscheduled problems in 10 years). But they do take them down for maintenance from time to time, there can be network problems, etc. I feel that expecting < 30 minutes outage at a time is _totally_ unreasonable for anyone, no matter what machines they run, what backup machines they have, and so on. > it looks like those of us *TRULY* into Classic computing need to start > our own list (hosted on a Classic list server of course). der Mouse, > can I count you in? I'm sure I can count on Tony... He is certainly > *THE* most intelligent and most worthy person on this list. I dispute that!. I've been called an idiot so often that I now believe it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 13:13:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503060353.WAA05455@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 5, 5 10:25:05 pm Message-ID: > But you probably could do fine, I'd guess, by just cutting the mains > ground connection for one or the other supply, as appropriate. > No, don;'t do that. FOr one thing most PSUs have a mains filter including 3 delta-connected capacitors. If you take off the ground wire, the chassis wil try and float at half mains voltage (!). And for another thing, if you have a component failure, you could end up with mains on the case or output side, and the fuse won't fail. This will cook whatever classic device you're powering from it, and may cook you too. Which is more worrying depends on who you are! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 13:16:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:16:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00a901c521fd$2ff58830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 5, 5 09:32:56 pm Message-ID: > Tony, I think you're missing something here. ISP's pretty much always have > secondary and tertiary mail servers. Just taking down ONE server doesn't > make your mail bounce. The classiccmp server would try the secondary. For > example, your ISP (demon.co.uk) has two mail servers set up. Surely they > don't take BOTH of them down for maintenance at the same time ;) There ahve been a few times when demon has (AFAIK) accepted no incoming mail at all. Maybe because both servers are down, maybe because of network problems (which may not actually be the fault of demon), maybe.... I don't try to understand what the problem is, I have enough trouble keeping my machines running, without bothering about machines I can't get to fix anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 6 13:20:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: <00bb01c521fd$ac15f5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 5, 5 09:36:21 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote... > > YEs, many HP 'service manuals' were just > > boardswapper guides, > Hasn't been my experience anyways. Every piece of HP gear I have includes > full schematics, detailed theory of operation, etc. There is one > exception... a service manual on some of the very late 5.25 hard drives... > no schematics there. It probably depends on which HP division produced the manuals... The ones I have for test equipment are _excellent_, with schemaitcs, theory, calibration information, and so on. Some of the best manuals I've seen. Ones for handheld calculators were not supposed to get out from service centres, but a few did. Again, they're excellent, and contain a lot more info than you'd need to fix the machine (particularly if you're a service centre with all the spares to hand!) I've not see many computer manuals. Certainly the one for the 2100A is excellent (one day I must get that machine running again). The one for the 85A is less good. There are full schematics in the appendix, but no theory of operation, etc. Which leaves the class of machine I work on the most. Desktop calculators. AFAIK, _no_ desktop calculator service manual contained any schematics for the logic. If you're lucky the PSU schematics are there. Which is why HOPCC started producing their own info on these machines... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 6 13:43:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2.5V Lithium 'AA' sized batteries: Where to find? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050306082638.00944100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305203641.02280950@popmail.ucsd.edu> <3.0.6.32.20050306082638.00944100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <33356.64.169.63.74.1110138187.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Joe wrote: > Then why don't you squeeze in a LDO 5 regulator and install two standard > 3 volt Lithium batteries? Unlike normal linear regulators, LDOs are very finicky. They are picky about both the value and the ESR of their filter capacitors, and the requirements vary considerably between different LDOs. They not only have maximum ESR requirements, they have minimums as well! Pay very close attention to the data sheet. I recommend not using LDOs unless you're really experienced with these issues, and even then you can still sometimes run into trouble. For running 5V circuits from a pair of 3V lithium batteries, you might be better off just using a normal silicon diode in series, for a nominal 0.7V drop. However, the voltage drop decreases at low currents, so this may not be adequate for a low power circuit. That said, I've had pretty good results with the National Semiconductor LM1117 LDO regulator when used in accordance with the design guidelines in its data sheet. They are available in TO220 and various SMT packages, with fixed or adjustable voltage, are fairly inexpensive, and are available from Digikey. http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM1117.html Eric From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Mar 6 14:14:36 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:14:36 -0800 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <1110116966.24093.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1110116966.24093.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306121310.06065730@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:49 AM 3/6/2005, you wrote: >On Sat, 2005-03-05 at 19:54 -0500, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > It was a survival show and the person who drove his car into the lake > tried > > very hard to open the door. He kicked it, etc, etc. It wont budge. He > > finally took out his centerpunch and broke the side window. He waited for > > the water to rush into the car and then he swam out of the window. So, > based > > on that scenario, I doubt it would be possible to even open it a little > > bit... > >So without the centre punch, don't you just wait for the car to almost >fill up and then open the door? Seems that the main advantage of the >centre punch is for when the doors won't open due to damage, though (and >presumably you're screwed if the doors are locked and you have central >locking) I have a Smith & Wesson knife i carry around, it has an interesting feature on it, i has a spring loaded punch that will shatter car windows... a lot of first aid crews carry them for cutting seatbelts and breaking windows. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Mar 6 13:59:57 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:59:57 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422B613D.1080601@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > OK, thinking about getting a catweasel board for the museum. > ... > 2) Opinions of the board would be much appreciated, particularly in the > context of what it *can't* do, how easy it is to code for, how easy it > is to get hold of others' code to handle a particular format (rather > than reinventing the wheel), how well the board copes with media errors > etc. There are now four generations of catweasel cards -- the fourth is just coming out now. It is an FPGA design where the FPGA gets set up via software, so the developer can actually fix bugs and add features. The mailing list was quite busy for a few weeks there but has been strangely silent for a couple -- maybe I got unsub'd somehow. The MK3 and earlier were OK for soft sectored/unsectored disks, but reading hard sectored disks was significantly harder and writing them much harder yet. The MK4 supposedly has/will have features to make reading/writing hard sectored disks reasonable. The "3rd party drivers" for TRS-80's that someone else mentioned in this list was written by our own Tim Mann. I think people have the wrong idea about this product. There isn't corporation behind these cards -- it is a labor of love by one individual supported by a number of hobbyists. It is a real company making them, just a tiny one. Yes, you will have to write your own software if you are expecting to read/write disk formats that aren't already supported. To give you some idea of the ethics of the company/individual (jens), I bought a MK3 card a bit over a year ago. I wrote software to decode some PTDOS disks that I have. I fed back some information to Jens about how the MK3 fell short for reading/writing that particular format. He had to spin the MK3 design to make the MK4 anyway (one of the key parts was end-of-lifed), and he is incorporating some of that input into the design. 9 months goes by. I get an email, apparently sent to a few dozen people, saying: "What is your home address? I'm going to mail you an MK4 card." A $100 card for free. My only regret is at the moment I don't have the time to work on the MK4 card, but I will soon. One pain about using the card was that I had to use it on an Win98 machine so I could do simple I/O to the thing. XP doesn't allow it without drivers. Apparently under linux is isn't so hard. Anyway, this time around they are working on a driver with a mostly common API between linux/XP/otherthings so that you don't have to mess with the low level IO and just program the thing without jumping through hoops. Supposedly it will also be able to drive MK3 cards. There are no hard real time constraints to programming it, making it very simple. On MK3 boads you manually step it to the track you care about then you tell the controller to read or write a track. All the transition information gets captured in a RAM. When it is done you read out the data or write the next track to the RAM. MK4 adds more logic to tell apart the index hole from sector holes plus a state machine and some other control bits to allow reading/writing individual sectors on hard sectored devices. If you expect it to be plug & play for some oddball format, you will be disappointed. If you don't mind spending a week of evenings writing a decoder/encoder in software, then it is a great card. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 6 14:11:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:11:44 -0500 Subject: SGI Video Creator? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050306151144.009f4e80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know where I can get a GOOD description of the (standalone) SGI Video Creator? I found lots of hits on Google but no real detail. Joe From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 14:26:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:26:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050306122440.Q648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 5 2005, 10:06, Ron Hudson wrote: >> I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. > >> it prints out the header, then prints >> >> ME 10 >> >> Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get >> it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) > The statement is fine, the program as a whole isn't. "ME" means > "Missing END". There's a way to coerce the BASIC interpreter to not need the missing END statement. Change the program to read: 10 PRINT "ME 10" Then there would be no problem. You're welcome. Invoice for services in the mail, NET 30. tomj From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 14:30:09 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:30:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. In-Reply-To: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> References: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050306122922.B648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Subject: PDP-11 Success Story. > > Long story short, I got it working. Want some pictures? > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp-11.html > > Want to play? Get me in #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net sometime tonight. I > plan on going to bed about midnight, and I will be turning the noisy bloody > contraption off. Failing that, get me tomorrow. Cool! Noise, heat, power. Fun! :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 6 14:30:57 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:30:57 -0800 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <422B613D.1080601@pacbell.net> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <422B613D.1080601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 1:59 PM -0600 3/6/05, Jim Battle wrote: >I think people have the wrong idea about this product. There isn't >corporation behind these cards -- it is a labor of love by one >individual supported by a number of hobbyists. It is a real company >making them, just a tiny one. Yes, you will have to write your own >software if you are expecting to read/write disk formats that aren't >already supported. I understand that *now*, however, years ago, when I purchased the card, that wasn't made clear. They claimed the card would read a whole slew of different disks, and write to a bunch of them, but failed to mention there weren't any drivers to allow this :^( OTOH, I gather that the PCI version is now supported by at least a couple emulators, which makes it rather interesting. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 14:32:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:32:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00e301c521dc$6021b270$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00e301c521dc$6021b270$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050306123121.W648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > I'm not positive, but I don't believe mailman will send an attachment to a > subscriber. I can include specific text, but the entire faq is a bit much to > stuff in the "welcome to the list" email. But, what I CAN do is include a > link to the faq in the new subscriber welcome message. One old BBS technique is to put a trick answer into the FAQ, marked obviously like "THERE WILL BE A TRICK QUESTION LATER. REMEMBER THIS ANSWER: FOO". Thenk ask it. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 14:35:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:35:09 +0000 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <422B613D.1080601@pacbell.net> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <422B613D.1080601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1110141309.24111.76.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 13:59 -0600, Jim Battle wrote: > I think people have the wrong idea about this product. There isn't > corporation behind these cards -- it is a labor of love by one > individual supported by a number of hobbyists. It is a real company > making them, just a tiny one. Yes, you will have to write your own > software if you are expecting to read/write disk formats that aren't > already supported. Fair enough - but is any associated code produced by them (not by individuals using the board) open source? Are schematics and other technical info published? It's a little worrying if it's a small group of people doing it almost for the fun of it, but the product is a closely guarded secret. > One pain about using the card was that I had to use it on an Win98 > machine so I could do simple I/O to the thing. XP doesn't allow it > without drivers. Apparently under linux is isn't so hard. Anyway, this > time around they are working on a driver with a mostly common API > between linux/XP/otherthings so that you don't have to mess with the low > level IO and just program the thing without jumping through hoops. So hopefully source is published, API is available in advance on a website somewhere, and the documentation exists to access the low level I/O *if needed* ? That's something I'd expect of a product where so much of the usability comes from the user themselves. > There are no hard real time constraints to programming it, making it > very simple. On MK3 boads you manually step it to the track you care > about then you tell the controller to read or write a track. All the > transition information gets captured in a RAM. When it is done you read > out the data or write the next track to the RAM. MK4 adds more logic to > tell apart the index hole from sector holes plus a state machine and > some other control bits to allow reading/writing individual sectors on > hard sectored devices. That (the MK3) sounds very like what's been discussed here in the past, in terms of hooking a floppy drive up to something with enough RAM to buffer a track, which can then be interpreted in software by a machine at its leisure... > If you expect it to be plug & play for some oddball format, you will be > disappointed. If you don't mind spending a week of evenings writing a > decoder/encoder in software, then it is a great card. Absolutely. And it sounds like a decent bit of hardware. But I'm concerned about what support may be available, how much sharing of code goes on amongst users so that work isn't duplicated, what info is available in advance to ensure that it'll do the job required - and also which (broadly) formats it *still* won't be able to handle at the end of the day. I believe it'll handle reading / writing DEC media, and presumably *anything* soft-sectored using FM / MFM. Anyone know about GCR type formats? It'd be useful if we could just put together one machine with a variety of drives on it and potentially handle backup / restore of just about anything, but whether that's achievable is another matter. Hmm, that's another point - how many drives can the board interface? We'd likely need more than the four supported on a standard floppy bus - but I've seen a photo of a catweasel with two floppy connectors, so maybe it'll cope with 8 drives? At the very least the ability to switch drives on a running machine and reinitialise the catweasel without a reboot would be useful! (Not asking you these things specifically - just anyone on the list who may happen to know!) thanks for the info :) J. From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 14:37:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:37:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050306123351.U648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > One of the problems mail server admins face, are people who throw up their > own mailserver at home. You don't have gobs of bandwidth, you don't have > multiple backup servers, and you don't have diesel generators and online UPS. > If you don't, you have no business running a public mailserver. Damn straight! This isn't 1996 any more! At least use multiple and actual real and available and well-connected MX backups. > What does being a good net citizen admin entail? Well, for starters, it means > that you don't expect other mail servers to pick up YOUR SLACK. > It's not extreme at all. If this is your "grouch mode" you're a better person than I! From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 14:41:52 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ICW00GJCNUXYB@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050306123811.S648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > It was a survival show and the person who drove his car into the lake tried > very hard to open the door. He kicked it, etc, etc. It wont budge. He > finally took out his centerpunch and broke the side window. He waited for > the water to rush into the car and then he swam out of the window. So, based > on that scenario, I doubt it would be possible to even open it a little > bit... Yup, universally the case. Anyone got a calculator? Car in river. Let's call it 10PSIG, the pressure at about 5 feet of depth. If car door is 4 feet x 3 feet (probably VASTLY undersize), that's 1728 square inches. Times 10 pounds/sq in. Run xcalc and do the rest... From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Mar 6 05:34:26 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:34:26 +0100 Subject: [OT]Homebrew PCB fabrication In-Reply-To: <34499.64.169.63.74.1108975453.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <200502210452.XAA08425@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <34499.64.169.63.74.1108975453.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1110108867.10826.12.camel@fortran> On Mon, 2005-02-21 at 00:44 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > > Its OK Sellam, you wont loose points. Its a common mistake, not a > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > You meam, "won't lose", right? If there are any loose points, someone > should probably gather them up before they do get lost. > > Sorry, "lose" vs. "loose" is one of my pet peeves. He almost made you loose your temper? Sorry, couldn't help myself. -- Tore S Bekkedal From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 6 15:05:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:05:17 GMT Subject: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus! In-Reply-To: Tom Jennings "Re: Calling PDP8 / OS8 /basic gurus!" (Mar 6, 12:26) References: <0e726d52d5b75e8ec507142e3355ebf9@sbcglobal.net> <10503052054.ZM15179@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050306122440.Q648@localhost> Message-ID: <10503062105.ZM17753@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 6 2005, 12:26, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Mar 5 2005, 10:06, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I am running OS8 on a pdp8 simulator in my iBook. > > > >> it prints out the header, then prints > >> > >> ME 10 > >> > >> Well, it's a very simple BASIC statement, did I get > >> it wrong? (or is the simulate broken?) > > > The statement is fine, the program as a whole isn't. "ME" means > > "Missing END". > > > There's a way to coerce the BASIC interpreter to not need the > missing END statement. Change the program to read: > > > 10 PRINT "ME 10" > > Then there would be no problem. > > You're welcome. Invoice for services in the mail, NET 30. LOL! Yes, that'll produce the expected result! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:12:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:12:50 -0500 Subject: Windows LFN's (HP NewWave) In-Reply-To: References: <1109966055.21167.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050306161250.13dc917b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:48:08 -0500 Bill Sheehan wrote: > Back in the day, I bought a copy of NewWave after reading a glowing > review in one of the trade rags. As I recall, it was so slow you > could get ahead of screen refreshes doing nothing more than typing. > > I still have the box sitting on my shelf, and one of these days I'm > going to fire it back up again. > > -- Bill > > > On Mar 4, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Just found the following snippet in a 1990 document (someone's > > review of > > a GUI show which they'd attended). Just struck me as interesting in > > that > > I never knew there was an alternative to 8.3 filenames in the > > DOS/Windows world prior to Win95, nor have I ever heard of HP > > NewWave before... > > > > Apparently also included macros/activity recording, associations > > between > > data and application (e.g. double-click on a spreadsheet file and it > > opens in the spreadsheet app etc.), and context-sensitive help. > > Sounds like a winner, only I've never even heard of it... > > > > Apologies to the original author (who almost certainly isn't on this > > list!) for the cut & paste! > > > > (I do like that first line :-) > > > > ------- > > > > NewWave is a 'front end' to MSWindows to make them useable. It > > provides a Filer facility which tarts up the MS-DOS filing system to > > enable 30 character filenames with no obvious character set > > limitations (ie it'll accept a space in the filename) and a > > framework to interchange and combine multiple data types into one > > document. This framework manages dynamic links between the document > > and the original object which is contained in the document such that > > when the document is reconstructed any changes to, say the > > spreadsheet data, get reflected in, say, the report. Parts of > > foreign objects can also be imported with the same results, eg a few > > rows and columns of a spreadsheet can be imported to a > > word processed document. > > > > > > HP NewWave was good enough that it got a backhanded 'endorsement' by being a co-plaintiff with Microsoft Windows in Apple's look-n-feel legal adventure. Which, thank goodness, they didn't win. License your X11 system from Apple, anybody? > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 15:13:00 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:13:00 -0800 Subject: Wycat Keyboard available. In-Reply-To: <20050306123351.U648@localhost> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050306123351.U648@localhost> Message-ID: I have a hard to find Wycat keyboard I found at goodwill. It is a BTC 5151, early PC compatable? Missing two keytops but the keys seem to work. Available to anyone on the list for the $2 cost plus shipping. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Mar 6 15:17:46 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:17:46 -0800 Subject: FS: ThinkPad 700C (SF Bay Area, free to good home) Message-ID: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> I have an IBM ThinkPad 700C that boots Windows 95 (it actually runs nicely, I dare say better than Win2K3 on my current 1Ghz desktop). The display hinge is broken, so its aesthetics are lacking a bit, but if you've got another 700C that isn't working, this is a good machine for parts. Comes with power adapter, original docs, and battery (unknown condition). I'll ship to you for cost (US only, sorry), or if you're local you can pick up. If there are no takers, I'll be tossing it. Hopefully it finds a good home. It's a nice little machine, just outside my collecting scope. http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/view.cfm?ad=1610 Thanks! Patrick From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:19:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:19:42 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:02:07 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Anyone interested in an AT&T PC6300? No idea of the whereabouts. > Contact original sender. See below: > > Reply-to: lkrupp at pssw.com > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:41:43 -0700 > From: Louis Krupp > To: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H > > Any use for an AT&T PC 6300 and an AT&T CRT 318H? > > Louis > I used to have the Technical Reference manual for the AT&T 6300. Sadly, it got lost in a move, it seems. It had schematics, the BIOS listing, and all the details and stuff. The 6300 (I once owned one) can be a frustrating machine, because it is NOT a clone machine. You can't put high density drives in it easily, for instance. It's big selling point was being an 8086 machine in the era when everybody used 8088 machines. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:25:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:25:25 -0500 Subject: Re installing XP on Sony In-Reply-To: <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050306162525.57db253d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:56:12 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 4 2005, 21:54, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-03-04 at 21:01 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Mar 4 2005, 10:56, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > > > > > I think many don't realize the damage that can happen > > > > when the group becomes a "Please fix my PC" group. > > > > I watched this happen to a news group that had too many > > > > people that tolerated such off topic post. From Jim's own > > > > words, he thought that this was a general computer > > > > group.> [ snip ] > > > > > > FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Dwight, and well remember the > > > newsgroup he means, having used it from 1994 until its eventual > demise. > > > Actually, it's still there - but has become an alt.fix.my.pc > group. > > > > Not alt.comp.homebuilt? I think I looked there a while ago and gave > up > > when I saw how many PC posts there were. > > Actually it's alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt, and it started as a group > for people interested in building or modifying hardware in the sense > of using a soldering iron or perhaps VHDL, but gradually newbies > started appearing and asking about PCs they had "built" in the sense > of sticking their ISA cards on a new motherboard. We sadly live in an era when people are considered 'technical' if they can point the right end of a phillips screwdriver at a bunch of clone parts and 'build their own' PeeCee. I remember checking into the homebuild newsgroup, thinking maybe they were wirewrapping TTL together or something cool. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:36:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:36:03 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 23:29:51 -0800 jim stephens wrote: > > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > Scott wrote about picking locks: > > > I haven't had very good luck with paper clips. A better tool is a > > > used dental pick, because this is tempered and holds up when you > > > put stress on > > The MIT Lockpick guide recommends going out after a street sweeping > machine has been by and look in the gutter for the bristles that break > off the brushes. > > New bristles are not as good as used ones, because the metal wears > down thin just before it breaks off. It is very hard and ideal for > the material to fab the picks from. > > this is just from reading. I never pick locks, I go around to the > back door, which is usually unlocked and go in there. > > Jim > The back door here (our house) has a skeleton key lock. That was the only lock on the back door. At least, that's all it had when we moved in. Now it has a slidebolt, and a big scary black dog inside. You can still buy skeleton keys out of the bins at most hardware stores. There are a few different types. The ones for our house were there. (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' to the credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is disabled or replaced? Are there sources for the keys? My ancient RS/6000 has the lock 'sprung' so that any screwdriver will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 has the lock intact (and I have the key). -Scott Scott From acme at gbronline.com Sun Mar 6 16:06:39 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:06:39 -0500 Subject: SC-01 Votrax References: <20050301172115.49906.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <029f01c52298$c6404000$bd4f0945@acme> ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Hartman > I also co-authored the Coco Greeting Card Designer > while at Zebra and worked on the SC-01 Votrax Speech > Synthesiser implementation on the ZX-81/TS1000 and the > TS-2068. Al -- do you have any documentation for the ZX81/TS1000 version? I have both boards but no docs for the ZX81 version. Regards -- Glen 0/0 From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 16:28:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:28:32 -0500 Subject: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch, was Re:OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> Message-ID: <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:57:37 -0800 (PST) Tom Jennings wrote: > This centerpunch you all speak of, how old is it? > > Can I boot Windows XP on it? Does it have enough memory? > > Yo, WTF, Over? Topic drift? We're lost at sea! I use a center punch to mark for drilling holes for switch mounting on electronic cabinets. I am thinking of using one to punch a row of holes for a switch panel. These switches I would then use as the input to enter instructions in a small rudimentary single board computer based on the IM6100 microprocessor. (there would also be a row or two above the switches for LEDs) I kinda miss bootstrapping the PDP-8, which I did to bootstrap FOCAL, to complete my 'Intro to computer programming' course at Hamline University in 1978. I don't have high ambitions for said switch panel (made by punching markers to drill holes with the center punch being discussed earlier in the thread) being a 'high level' machine, but think it would be cool to duplicate (not perfectly, just functionally) the front Panel of a PDP-8 to run machine code on. (I hope my topic drift, from center punches, to building a SBC PDP-8 [I have a large quantity of IM6100s if anybody wants to join the project] isn't viewed badly by list members) --- The meta-point in my message above? Bringing things back on-topic creatively is more interesting than today's >100 message flamefest. --- Scott From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 6 16:51:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:51:23 -0600 Subject: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch, was Re:OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> At 04:28 PM 3/6/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >(I hope my topic drift, from center punches, to building a SBC PDP-8 [I >have a large quantity of IM6100s if anybody wants to join the project] >isn't viewed badly by list members) That's right, tools are on-topic if they're being used to repair old computers, unless the tools run Windows. :-) - John From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Mar 6 17:04:52 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:04:52 +0100 Subject: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch, was Re:OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1110150292.10826.17.camel@fortran> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 17:28 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:57:37 -0800 (PST) > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > This centerpunch you all speak of, how old is it? > > > > Can I boot Windows XP on it? Does it have enough memory? > > > > Yo, WTF, Over? Topic drift? We're lost at sea! > > I use a center punch to mark for drilling holes for switch mounting on > electronic cabinets. I am thinking of using one to punch a row of holes > for a switch panel. These switches I would then use as the input to > enter instructions in a small rudimentary single board computer based on > the IM6100 microprocessor. (there would also be a row or two above the > switches for LEDs) I kinda miss bootstrapping the PDP-8, which I did to > bootstrap FOCAL, to complete my 'Intro to computer programming' course > at Hamline University in 1978. I don't have high ambitions for said > switch panel (made by punching markers to drill holes with the center > punch being discussed earlier in the thread) being a 'high level' > machine, but think it would be cool to duplicate (not perfectly, just > functionally) the front Panel of a PDP-8 to run machine code on. > > (I hope my topic drift, from center punches, to building a SBC PDP-8 [I > have a large quantity of IM6100s if anybody wants to join the project] > isn't viewed badly by list members) > I believe this to be the first and last time in my life that I have ever seen a topic START off-topic and drift ON-TOPIC! I... I... don't know what to say! I'm scared. -- Tore S Bekkedal From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Mar 6 17:10:04 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:10:04 EST Subject: Free Stuff (location specified now) Message-ID: <42.6475cfa1.2f5ce7cc@aol.com> I'm in Renton, WA (Southeast of Seattle) so, unfortunately, it's probably uneconomical to ship to der Mouse. -Scott Quinn From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Sun Mar 6 17:14:36 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:14:36 -0800 Subject: FS: ThinkPad 700C (SF Bay Area, free to good home) In-Reply-To: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> References: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> Message-ID: <422B8EDC.7040301@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> FYI, this item has been taken and is no longer available. Thanks! --Patrick Patrick wrote: > I have an IBM ThinkPad 700C that boots Windows 95 (it actually runs > nicely, I dare say better than Win2K3 on my current 1Ghz desktop). The > display hinge is broken, so its aesthetics are lacking a bit, but if > you've got another 700C that isn't working, this is a good machine for > parts. Comes with power adapter, original docs, and battery (unknown > condition). I'll ship to you for cost (US only, sorry), or if you're > local you can pick up. > > If there are no takers, I'll be tossing it. Hopefully it finds a good > home. It's a nice little machine, just outside my collecting scope. > > http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/view.cfm?ad=1610 > > Thanks! > Patrick From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 6 17:20:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:20:06 -0700 Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. In-Reply-To: <20050306162525.57db253d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050306162525.57db253d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422B9026.30003@jetnet.ab.ca> >We sadly live in an era when people are considered 'technical' if they >can point the right end of a phillips screwdriver at a bunch of clone >parts and 'build their own' PeeCee. > > > Heck with everything all on one mother board your lucky if you can change the video card. %$!@ old PC , $#!@ new games that want the latest video. >I remember checking into the homebuild newsgroup, thinking maybe they >were wirewrapping TTL together or something cool. > > My ISP does not seem to suport news groups any more, so I can't say what is being built. How about changing the name to alt.I've.added.lights2my.case. I notice here in Canada Radio shack has got away from selling almost any kind of real electronic componemts but it shure has a lot of small light bulbs and big heavy switches. >. > > > So were you planning to build a computer? If so what kind? Ben alias woodelf From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 17:25:54 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:25:54 +0000 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422B9182.3080101@gjcp.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' to the > credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is disabled or replaced? > Are there sources for the keys? My ancient RS/6000 has the lock > 'sprung' so that any screwdriver will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 has > the lock intact (and I have the key). Yeah, kind of. But needs must, I suppose. I've lost the ignition key for my PDP-11, so I've basically jumped across the switch pins in the mains plug with a bit of wire. At some point I'll either get round to getting a key made, or getting another lock, or just pulling the tumblers. Gordon. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 17:31:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:31:24 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050306183124.6830c138.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:00:40 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > > Unearthed a Sun 2/120 yesterday (CPU cabinet plus disk cabinet plus > mono screen) but unfortunately no sign of a keyboard or mouse. > > Anyone know if a later Sun keyboard and mouse can be wired via an > adapter to work? We've got a couple of Sun 3 keyboards & mice kicking > around which would be enough to test the machine out at least. > > Both the keyboard and mouse connectors on the Sun 2 are 6-pin > RJ45-style connectors (they're probably not called RJ45 in this case > as they're smaller, but you get the idea). > > Actually, I have a feeling that the mouse on our Sun 3/50 uses the > same connector (where it plus into the back of the keyboard) so that > might be the exact right part. The keyboard on the 3/50's a DB15 > though... > > cheers > > Jules > I would suggest bringing it up with a serial console, to check things out. I am assuming that a Sun 2 follows the convention of later Sun hardware and supports a serial console if it finds no keyboard. Is this the case? I have a lot of Sun hardware here that has never had a keyboard or monitor attached. Just a serial console to get it running and an OS installed, then ethernet (and power) becomes it's sole connection to the outside world. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 6 17:39:05 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:39:05 -0000 Subject: Atari Arcade Milipede board In-Reply-To: <001501c521c4$523c0920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200503062339.j26NdAla033222@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Subject: Atari Arcade Milipede board > > Somebody threw out this CPU-card, maybe 10" x 24", from a > standard Atari console. Anyway, I have it saved for anyone > on the list looking for one. Its metal housing box is also > available, with it's "riser" card. Cabinets and the obvious needed bits aside, what would it take to get a working millipede system? PSU, monitor etc? I wouldn't mind building my own 'proper' millipede system..... cheers a From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 17:40:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:40:57 -0500 Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. In-Reply-To: <422B9026.30003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503041856.KAA20502@clulw009.amd.com> <10503042101.ZM12042@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1109973298.21184.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503042356.ZM12486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050306162525.57db253d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422B9026.30003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050306184057.2eba5b99.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:20:06 -0700 woodelf wrote: > > >We sadly live in an era when people are considered 'technical' if > >they can point the right end of a phillips screwdriver at a bunch of > >clone parts and 'build their own' PeeCee. > > > > > > > Heck with everything all on one mother board your lucky if you can > change the video card. > %$!@ old PC , $#!@ new games that want the latest video. > > >I remember checking into the homebuild newsgroup, thinking maybe they > >were wirewrapping TTL together or something cool. > > > > > My ISP does not seem to suport news groups any more, so I can't say > what is being built. > How about changing the name to alt.I've.added.lights2my.case. I notice > > here in Canada > Radio shack has got away from selling almost any kind of real > electronic componemts but > it shure has a lot of small light bulbs and big heavy switches. > > >. > > > > > > > So were you planning to build a computer? > If so what kind? > Ben alias woodelf > > Well, I'm the kind of nerd who considers it a challange to identify a 74xx TTL chip that I haven't seen before, but I'm getting very mired in all sorts of projects now. I'm looking at various micro-based designs now. One that I've actually wired up that is 8088-based, but I haven't plugged any code into the EPROM socket of it yet. The one that people here would find more interesting is a IM6100 based system. I acquired a number of tubes of the Harris-clone of the 6100 processor awhile back, and want to cobble up a single board design. Theres' already the far-superior 6120-based design that runs the actual full-blown PDP-8 software like the operating systems and FOCAL and what-not. My 6100 design would be for running hand-assembled machine code, and 4K only (the 6100's 12 bit address bus and all that) I don't think I posess any 74181 ALUs anymore to 'really' roll my own system. Lots of 4/8-bit latches and coder/decoders on hand, though. Who would want to be without some of that stuff for general purpose projects? Right now the path to the bench with the soldering iron on it is obstructed by a huge pile of misc. gear that NEEDS to be dealt with, and soon. -Scott From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 17:43:36 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:43:36 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <048a01c52149$0f86aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <422B95A8.60800@gjcp.net> Jay West wrote: > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 > minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, then > again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't > unsubscribe you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get > you unsubbed. But it won't try to send you any given list post more than > twice now. Same reason as above. My 2p-worth on it, which you may not want to hear from a relative newcomer. BUT - and it's a big but, so let's say it again - BUT! Do any of us pay for this mailing list? I personally don't. I think that Jay does a great job under difficult conditions - particularly the last month, which by the sound of it has mostly been firefighting - and we should all be grateful there's a list at all. How often do you have as much as half an hour's downtime? I personally think the timeout should be longer, perhaps four hours or so. I can understand the arguments for short and the arguments for long. I've run plenty of mail servers, fixed more than a few others, and even written one (long since dead, thank goodness - it was utter shite and I am embarrassed to even look for the disks these days). If I have a period of lossage greater than half an hour, then I will go and check if I'm still subscribed. If not, I'll just resubscribe, and check the archives in my Copious Free Time. Maybe I'll even post a mail to the list saying "I was unsubbed for a while there, did anyone say anything relevant to me?" If this happens often enough that resubbing becomes a nuisance, then I will consider subscribing with a more reliable email address. I have masses of Gmail invites. Please feel free to ask if you want one. As I say, just my thoughts on it. Gordon JC Pearce. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Mar 6 17:43:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:43:03 -0500 Subject: picking locks References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' Scott> to the credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is Scott> disabled or replaced? Are there sources for the keys? My Scott> ancient RS/6000 has the lock 'sprung' so that any screwdriver Scott> will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 has the lock intact (and I Scott> have the key). In the case of DEC, there are only two locks that I know of. One is an ACE (tubular key) lock; the other is a 3 or 4 pin flat key lock. They have always been keyed alike since the beginning of time. And then to confuse things there are on some machines dark gray things that look like ACE locks but are just dummies. They are turned with a plastic blank -- or with any ACE key you might have in your collection. So with DEC at least, it should be easy to get a key. paul From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 17:47:16 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:47:16 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> James Fogg wrote: >>Actually, I can't think of the last time I've seen ANY domain >>that didn't have more than one MX record. Except for someone >>trying to run a service out of their house. To do so, is... well... >> >>Jay > Well what? > > I'm on dynamic IP space with cable service and I have great uptime. I > could use a secondary MX, I have the resources to do so. Perhaps I will. > But it doesn't change the fact I have a good performance record. > I am loath to say this, because I will almost certainly have massive downtime tomorrow... I am on (nominally) dynamic IP space, on NTL cable. My IP address has changed once, when I changed MAC addresses (built my firewall machine). My uptime has been better than the 8-grand-per-month leased line we had at my old job. Gordon. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Mar 6 17:48:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:48:30 -0500 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: Jim, I understand where you're coming from, however the way the product was presented, it stated it could read various formats, what wasn't mentioned on the site for the product or during the purchase process is that the "product is capable of reading such formats - if someone actually writes the code" My Atari 800 could run linux - if someone ports it, could run CP/M too if someone wants to write the needed code, could read IBM disks on its disk drives - if someone writes it... All of our equipment can do a lot more then it is normally capable of --- if someone takes the time to write it. So what I'm saying is I bought the product because it stated it could do certain things which I was expecting out of the box when I bought it, just there was no fineprint saying that there were no actual s/w or drives to actually make the card work that way yet. Curt -----Original message----- From: Jim Battle frustum at pacbell.net Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:00:33 -0500 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > OK, thinking about getting a catweasel board for the museum. > > > ... > > 2) Opinions of the board would be much appreciated, particularly in the > > context of what it *can't* do, how easy it is to code for, how easy it > > is to get hold of others' code to handle a particular format (rather > > than reinventing the wheel), how well the board copes with media errors > > etc. > > There are now four generations of catweasel cards -- the fourth is just > coming out now. It is an FPGA design where the FPGA gets set up via > software, so the developer can actually fix bugs and add features. The > mailing list was quite busy for a few weeks there but has been strangely > silent for a couple -- maybe I got unsub'd somehow. > > The MK3 and earlier were OK for soft sectored/unsectored disks, but > reading hard sectored disks was significantly harder and writing them > much harder yet. The MK4 supposedly has/will have features to make > reading/writing hard sectored disks reasonable. > > The "3rd party drivers" for TRS-80's that someone else mentioned in this > list was written by our own Tim Mann. > > I think people have the wrong idea about this product. There isn't > corporation behind these cards -- it is a labor of love by one > individual supported by a number of hobbyists. It is a real company > making them, just a tiny one. Yes, you will have to write your own > software if you are expecting to read/write disk formats that aren't > already supported. > > To give you some idea of the ethics of the company/individual (jens), I > bought a MK3 card a bit over a year ago. I wrote software to decode > some PTDOS disks that I have. I fed back some information to Jens about > how the MK3 fell short for reading/writing that particular format. He > had to spin the MK3 design to make the MK4 anyway (one of the key parts > was end-of-lifed), and he is incorporating some of that input into the > design. 9 months goes by. I get an email, apparently sent to a few > dozen people, saying: "What is your home address? I'm going to mail you > an MK4 card." A $100 card for free. > > My only regret is at the moment I don't have the time to work on the MK4 > card, but I will soon. > > One pain about using the card was that I had to use it on an Win98 > machine so I could do simple I/O to the thing. XP doesn't allow it > without drivers. Apparently under linux is isn't so hard. Anyway, this > time around they are working on a driver with a mostly common API > between linux/XP/otherthings so that you don't have to mess with the low > level IO and just program the thing without jumping through hoops. > Supposedly it will also be able to drive MK3 cards. > > There are no hard real time constraints to programming it, making it > very simple. On MK3 boads you manually step it to the track you care > about then you tell the controller to read or write a track. All the > transition information gets captured in a RAM. When it is done you read > out the data or write the next track to the RAM. MK4 adds more logic to > tell apart the index hole from sector holes plus a state machine and > some other control bits to allow reading/writing individual sectors on > hard sectored devices. > > If you expect it to be plug & play for some oddball format, you will be > disappointed. If you don't mind spending a week of evenings writing a > decoder/encoder in software, then it is a great card. > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 17:50:03 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:50:03 +0000 Subject: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch, was Re:OT: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422B972B.1080902@gjcp.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > (I hope my topic drift, from center punches, to building a SBC PDP-8 [I > have a large quantity of IM6100s if anybody wants to join the project] > isn't viewed badly by list members) I'm in. Prices? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 6 17:51:25 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:51:25 +0000 Subject: FS: ThinkPad 700C (SF Bay Area, free to good home) In-Reply-To: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> References: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> Message-ID: <422B977D.7020508@gjcp.net> Patrick wrote: > I have an IBM ThinkPad 700C that boots Windows 95 (it actually runs Is that the butterfly keyboard one? If it is, what is a mint one with all the goodies (spare battery, external floppy, etc) worth? Gordon. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 6 17:55:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:55:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050306154715.B37618@shell.lmi.net> > > about Randy Cook's easter egg in TRS-DOS, On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I can confirm that one exists, I've seen it myself. > I thought it was type BOOT/SYS.WHO, hold down 2 4 and 6 and press enter. WHO, in that case, is a password. Since TRS-DOS hashed the passwords, any password that produces one of the correct hashes will do. IIRC, 9642 is the hash for system master password, and anything that will hash to that, such as NV36 will work on any file. IIRC, I was able to use a combination of two letter keys. There are probably many that would work. > On TRS-DOS 2.3, the result is a Radio Shack copyright screen. I am told ALMOST. It is actually a "TANDY CORP" copyright screen. RS wanted to make as few changes from "RANDY COOK" as they could. > code, even though they claimed they weren't (and weren't paying him > royalties). When RS cut a deal to distribute LDOS, Randy finally started getting his royalties. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 18:07:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:07:12 -0500 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: References: <200503032144.NAA19959@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:31 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Along with a Canon Cat, I've got an Apple //e with the SwyftCard > (basically the Canon Cat's firmware on a card that turns an Apple //e into > a Cat of sorts). The keyboard has Cat labels on the individual keys to > "re-map" them to the Cat functions: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Apple%20IIe.jpg > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Card.jpg Pretty slick... any idea what the LM311 and the PAL do? Copy protection? -ethan From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 6 18:13:24 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:13:24 -0800 Subject: Needed: LK401 Keyboard Message-ID: <200503061613240174.20E61122@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, I got rid of the keyboard for my VT420 terminal by mistake. Does anyone happen to have a spare LK401 that they'd be willing to part with? Let me know. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 6 18:17:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:17:45 -0500 Subject: Free: Tektronix Plot 10 mag tape Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050306191745.00a09780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went scrounging today and found this. I can't use it but it's too good to waste so I thought I'd see if anyone here could use it. It's on a small tape spool and is marked "4010A01 Plot 10(R) Terminal Control System Level 5.01 (C)Copyright Tektronix Inc 1988 Format IBM ASCII 1600 BPI Label: None Serial No. B074512 Record: 80 Block: 800 Option: 08". Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 6 18:22:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:22:30 -0500 Subject: Free: HP mini cartridges Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050306192230.00a0ae10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> More finds from today's trip. One HP mini-cartridge factory marked "DGL Demo Mini #2 Mini Cart, PE, FMGR 24998-13309 Rev 2040". I don't know what the software if but someone here should know. The other tape appears to be a backup. It was orginaly marked "DB1000 CRTG#5" but that has been marked out and "!BCK03 R2540" has been marked in pen. Joe From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Mar 6 18:23:34 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:23:34 +0100 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1110155014.10826.21.camel@fortran> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 23:47 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I am loath to say this, because I will almost certainly have massive > downtime tomorrow... > > I am on (nominally) dynamic IP space, on NTL cable. My IP address has > changed once, when I changed MAC addresses (built my firewall machine). > My uptime has been better than the 8-grand-per-month leased line we > had at my old job. Here in Norway it's quite varied. Bluecom is a geek's favorite, offering very reasonable static IP prices (about $100/year) and stable net connections (3mbit down, 640kbit up = 70-80 ameridollars/month). I'm concidering getting that one. However, as the old saying goes, the only secure computer is the one completely disconnected from any network. That is why I recommend Telenor ADSL. :) -- Tore S Bekkedal From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 18:38:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:38:16 -0500 Subject: Stolen thread: on topic we go: 6100 SBC project. In-Reply-To: <422B972B.1080902@gjcp.net> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422B972B.1080902@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050306193816.55ab8e45.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:50:03 +0000 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > (I hope my topic drift, from center punches, to building a SBC PDP-8 > > [I have a large quantity of IM6100s if anybody wants to join the > > project] isn't viewed badly by list members) > > I'm in. Prices? > > Gordon. > Okay. I will offer the following for $5, to the first five interested people, to get this project rolling: 1. Two 6100 processor chips 2. A CDROM with the 61xx family datasheets, and the manuals, tech data, etc. of the Intercept, and Intercept, Jr. (the Junior is a system that used the 6100 chip) 3. A single 2Kx8 SRAM chip. I'm limiting this to the first five people (which is negotiable if more people than that are really interested) who want to be involved building a real 'blinking lights/switches' 6100-based PDP-8 computer project, because I don't want this to turn into a 'collectable silicon chip to sit in the anti-static mat forever' giveaway. I've sold a few of these 6100 chips for much higher prices than this to chip collectors not interested in a 'project' like this, that's not what this offer is intended as. I do probably have some of the other parts and misc. to kick off this project. The 6100 has been termed 'one of the easiest processors ever to experiment with' because it has some of the most liberal clocking requirements of any microprocessor, ever. It's all Static CMOS, so you can clock it with a pushbutton at one-cycle-per-second if you like. Please reply in this thread, and contact me in email for private info (mailing address, etc.) so there's a 'visibly public' presence for a project like this. I have access to some decent always-on web space (at freeshell.org) so project details and a web page can be put up as things develop. -Scott From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Mar 6 18:43:17 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:43:17 -0500 Subject: Needed: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <200503061613240174.20E61122@192.168.42.129> References: <200503061613240174.20E61122@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <422BA3A5.80108@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have a couple of spares. How do you want it shipped? or would you rather have an LK201, LK461, LK471, or LK46W? I'd have to look at the plugs to see which fits. Joe Heck Bruce Lane wrote: >Hi, gang, > > I got rid of the keyboard for my VT420 terminal by mistake. Does anyone happen to have a spare LK401 that they'd be willing to part with? > > Let me know. Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Mar 6 18:52:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:52:14 -0500 Subject: minor list changes References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> <1110155014.10826.21.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <16939.42430.83000.314499@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tore" == Tore S Bekkedal writes: Tore> Here in Norway it's quite varied. Bluecom is a geek's favorite, Tore> offering very reasonable static IP prices (about $100/year) and Tore> stable net connections (3mbit down, 640kbit up = 70-80 Tore> ameridollars/month). Having discovered dyndns.org, I no longer see the need for a static IP address. I have a static name, that's good enough. I can even have one for the TLD of my choice. Maybe someday I'll have an xxx.aero name, that would be different... Tore> However, as the old saying goes, the only secure computer is Tore> the one completely disconnected from any network. That is why I Tore> recommend Telenor ADSL. :) Or ADSL in general, it seems. Having had ADLS at work, I no longer have any interest in that service, even if it were available where I live. But the phone company says my address is on the "no plans this decade" list, so I use high speed cable instead, way faster than ADSL and available today. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Mar 6 19:01:43 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:01:43 -0500 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305210218.04ead7b8@mail> References: <0503060235.AA21061@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.1.2.2.20050305210218.04ead7b8@mail> Message-ID: <200503062001.43713.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 05 March 2005 22:08, John Foust wrote: > It all makes me wonder if the schism shouldn't be towards replacing > the mailing list with a web forum. That'll show the people who are > stuck reading this list on dial-up at 300 baud on an ASR-33. > On a web, the crud can be edited, threads corralled, useful messages > moved to the FAQ, etc. Ick. My mail reader can do threading, etc just fine if I wanted it to. I *much* prefer the email format for classiccmp than a PHPbb or similar interface. Jay, you're doing a good job, thank you. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Mar 6 19:03:42 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:03:42 +0100 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <16939.42430.83000.314499@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> <1110155014.10826.21.camel@fortran> <16939.42430.83000.314499@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1110157422.10826.29.camel@fortran> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 19:52 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tore" == Tore S Bekkedal writes: > > Tore> Here in Norway it's quite varied. Bluecom is a geek's favorite, > Tore> offering very reasonable static IP prices (about $100/year) and > Tore> stable net connections (3mbit down, 640kbit up = 70-80 > Tore> ameridollars/month). > > Having discovered dyndns.org, I no longer see the need for a static IP > address. I have a static name, that's good enough. I can even have > one for the TLD of my choice. Maybe someday I'll have an xxx.aero > name, that would be different... Heh. I was unsure about the whole static IP thing, but some ISPs (bluecom, I have found out through conversation, is not one) enjoy changing your IP down to every 10 minutes or something utterly rediculous like that. The reason is that I want to make a multi-system public access network of emulated machines. VMS, early UNIX, early (211/29) BSD, OS/360, and some other things. But that turned out to be a non-issue, as Bluecom doesn't really like switching your IP. > Tore> However, as the old saying goes, the only secure computer is > Tore> the one completely disconnected from any network. That is why I > Tore> recommend Telenor ADSL. :) > > Or ADSL in general, it seems. Having had ADLS at work, I no longer > have any interest in that service, even if it were available where I > live. But the phone company says my address is on the "no plans this > decade" list, so I use high speed cable instead, way faster than ADSL > and available today. Bluecom, as is most ISPs, is actually ADSL (or SDSL for businesses). In fact, here in Norway, cable net is the crap service (mostly because of a crap company holding the monopoly. In the start phase, their tech support had over two hour waits when things broke (and break they did, frequently) -- Tore S Bekkedal From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 19:06:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:06:07 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope (was Re: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:51:23 -0600, John Foust wrote: > That's right, tools are on-topic if they're being used to repair > old computers, unless the tools run Windows. :-) Unfortunately, there has been this trend lately for multi-channel digital O-scopes to be Windows-based. I had to rebuild one at Pole last year that contained a commodity motherboard, and bog-standard hardware except for an HP DAC card that included circuits to talk to the front-panel buttons, and it only ran Windows 98. Fortunately, we were able to get instructions and the necessary files that once we got the base OS working on it, we were able to turn it back into an oscilloscope. Doesn't bode well for the future... -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 6 19:09:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:31 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival > wrote: > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Along with a Canon Cat, I've got an Apple //e with the SwyftCard > > (basically the Canon Cat's firmware on a card that turns an Apple //e into > > a Cat of sorts). The keyboard has Cat labels on the individual keys to > > "re-map" them to the Cat functions: > > > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Apple%20IIe.jpg > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Card.jpg > > Pretty slick... any idea what the LM311 and the PAL do? Copy protection? I have no idea, and the man best suited to answer the question is gone now ;( I'm sure some documentation still remains. Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn might actually have some relevant stuff. And least of all, I'm pretty certain all of Jef's notes and such will be preserved. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cmurray at eagle.ca Sun Mar 6 19:16:40 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:16:40 -0500 Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. Message-ID: <200503070116.j271Ge8d085977@inferno.eagle.ca> I quite agree. Here in Canada Radio Shack has moved into the mass consumer market leaving the electronic hobbyist to fend for himself. Here in the Toronto area we have access to specialty electronic stores that cater to our needs. Murray Message: 36 Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:20:06 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <422B9026.30003 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>We sadly live in an era when people are considered 'technical' if they >>can point the right end of a phillips screwdriver at a bunch of clone >>parts and 'build their own' PeeCee. >> >> >> Heck with everything all on one mother board your lucky if you can change the video card. %$!@ old PC , $#!@ new games that want the latest video. >>I remember checking into the homebuild newsgroup, thinking maybe they >>were wirewrapping TTL together or something cool. >> >> My ISP does not seem to suport news groups any more, so I can't say what is being built. How about changing the name to alt.I've.added.lights2my.case. I notice here in Canada Radio shack has got away from selling almost any kind of real electronic componemts but it shure has a lot of small light bulbs and big heavy switches. >>. >> >> >> So were you planning to build a computer? If so what kind? Ben alias woodelf From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Sun Mar 6 20:21:39 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:21:39 +1000 Subject: FS: ThinkPad 700C (SF Bay Area, free to good home) In-Reply-To: <422B977D.7020508@gjcp.net> References: <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> <422B737A.7000703@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050307122139.00997e30@pop-server> At 11:51 PM 3/6/05 +0000, you wrote: >Patrick wrote: >> I have an IBM ThinkPad 700C that boots Windows 95 (it actually runs > >Is that the butterfly keyboard one? > >If it is, what is a mint one with all the goodies (spare battery, >external floppy, etc) worth? No, the Thinkpad 701 has the butterfly keyboard. I don't know what the current rate is, but a 133MHz replacement motherboard is available (the original is a 486DX4-75). I've wanted one for a while, but right now I'm broke... From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Mar 6 19:26:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:26:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. In-Reply-To: <200503070116.j271Ge8d085977@inferno.eagle.ca> from Cmurray at "Mar 6, 5 08:16:40 pm" Message-ID: <200503070126.RAA13776@floodgap.com> > I quite agree. Here in Canada Radio Shack has moved into the mass consumer > market leaving the electronic hobbyist to fend for himself. That sounds an awful lot like the Rat Schlocks in the United States. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proudly running on the Apple Network Server 500/200 ------------------------ From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Mar 6 19:31:49 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:31:49 -0500 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200503062031.50540.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Sunday 06 March 2005 18:47, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > James Fogg wrote: > > I'm on dynamic IP space with cable service and I have great uptime. I > > could use a secondary MX, I have the resources to do so. Perhaps I will. > > But it doesn't change the fact I have a good performance record. > > I am loath to say this, because I will almost certainly have massive > downtime tomorrow... I have been having troubles with my provider and just finished looking at my IP changes. >From February 18 to March 2 a quick estimate gives MAX IP time of 780 minutes, average 184, with 144 changes in that period. Based on a cron job sampling IP every 10 minutes. Earlier today my connection was going down after 4 messages. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Mar 6 19:49:48 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:49:48 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306174913.021b9eb0@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:09 PM 3/6/2005, you wrote: >On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:31 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival > > wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > Along with a Canon Cat, I've got an Apple //e with the SwyftCard > > > (basically the Canon Cat's firmware on a card that turns an Apple //e > into > > > a Cat of sorts). The keyboard has Cat labels on the individual keys to > > > "re-map" them to the Cat functions: > > > > > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Apple%20IIe.jpg > > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Card.jpg > > > > Pretty slick... any idea what the LM311 and the PAL do? Copy protection? > >I have no idea, and the man best suited to answer the question is gone now >;( I'm sure some documentation still remains. Bruce Damer of the >DigiBarn might actually have some relevant stuff. And least of all, I'm >pretty certain all of Jef's notes and such will be preserved. my guess would be address mapping for the rom... (the pal) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 6 19:29:06 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:29:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503070135.UAA28457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But you probably could do fine, I'd guess, by just cutting the mains >> ground connection for one or the other supply, as appropriate. > No, don;'t do that. FOr one thing most PSUs have a mains filter > including 3 delta-connected capacitors. If you take off the ground > wire, the chassis wil try and float at half mains voltage (!). Well, only to the extent that the capcitors pass current. It doesn't much matter if it floats at half mains voltage open-circuit if it has multiple megohms impedance/resistance to either mains rail! But don't forget that in this use, the output ground is connected to the output 12V of another supply, and thus is referred to earth through that other supply. > And for another thing, if you have a component failure, you could end > up with mains on the case or output side, and the fuse won't fail. Well, it depends on what happens when the other supply sees mains voltage between its output 12V line and its ground line. But yes, this may be a concern; you may want to find something like a nice hefty 15V zener - one that can sink substantial current - and install it on the output as a crowbar. Or perhaps a low-current 15V zener and a big-ass SCR, the latter being the crowbar. Something of that ilk. > This will cook whatever classic device you're powering from it, and > may cook you too. Which is more worrying depends on who you are! :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Mar 6 19:36:02 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: FREE: Toaster video tapes (copies). WANTED: Commodore PET ROM. Message-ID: <20050307013603.48960.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, Something for the Toaster users among us - video tapes: - Studio 16 - LW Essentials - LW #1 2.0 - LW #2 2.0 - Modeler training, Toaster 2.0 - Displacement mapping, bones, morphing - Toaster Surfaces 2.0 They are all copies, but I viewed them, they are good. You can have them for the price of shipping (8 pounds). Also, I need ROM 016 for my "chicklet" PET 2001. Any givers? Steve. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 19:54:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:10 -0500 Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. In-Reply-To: <200503070116.j271Ge8d085977@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200503070116.j271Ge8d085977@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <20050306205410.5bd86a09.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:16:40 -0500 "Cmurray" wrote: > I quite agree. Here in Canada Radio Shack has moved into the mass > consumer market leaving the electronic hobbyist to fend for himself. > Here in the Toronto area we have access to specialty electronic stores > that cater to our needs. > > Murray > > eBay has helped people who are 'land locked' in areas where there are no parts. There are a lot of sellers of electronic components. I was scarfing up tubes of interesting TTL gates recently, and built up a good assortment of discrete transistors that way awhile back. So electronics hobbyists don't have to 'fend for themselves' entirely. Also, there is SO MUCH good stuff that just gets scrapped these days. I would never have imagined when I was a kid in High School that good power supplies would ever be had for 'haul it away' prices. There is a wealth of good components in any scrapped PC. It's gotten so we all take it for granted. I used to pull discrete parts (crystals, semiconductors, etc.) off boards for reuse. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 19:54:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:37 -0500 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306174913.021b9eb0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306174913.021b9eb0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:49:48 -0800, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > Pretty slick... any idea what the LM311 and the PAL do? Copy protection? > > my guess would be address mapping for the rom... (the pal) In other machines, that might be a reasonable guess. My recollection is that the Apple II motherboard pre-decodes address ranges on behalf of the cards and does _not_ present A0-A15 raw to the slot. -ethan From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 6 20:09:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:09:01 -0500 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <20050307020900.MATU25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> All the discussion on stacking two PC supplies and cutting grounds to try and keep them isolated seems like asking for trouble.... I've had good results using a PC-AT supply, and a little homebuilt linear (and nicely transformer isolated) 12v supply stacked on it's output to power an 8" drive. (The 12v supply is actually built on the outside of the cover of the AT supply). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 6 20:11:59 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:11:59 -0500 Subject: FREE: Toaster video tapes (copies). WANTED: Commodore PET ROM. Message-ID: <20050307021158.XELO18259.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Also, I need ROM 016 for my "chicklet" PET 2001. IIRC the 016 ROM is F000-F7FF. You can get the images of all the PET ROMs from funet. Depending on the board you have and the available replacement devices, you may have to build a little daughter card to adapt the selects - I did this many years ago when a ROM died in one of my 2001's - copied the ROM from the other, and made a board to adapt a standard 2716 - still going strong! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 6 20:19:16 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:19:16 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:08:09 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that > one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an > Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the > 'classicalness', IMHO. Or Amiga UNIX.... I did get Amiga UNIX(R) v2.1 installed from tape and running on an A3000 last week, but the A2500 spits a kernel panic late in the kernel load during install. I didn't have time to do much debugging at all, but the v2.01, v2.03, and v2.1 boot/root floppies died at the same point. It's an interesting SysVR4 implementation, to say the least. :) On a loaded A3000 (16MB ZIP RAM, 2MB chip RAM) it's also surpisingly snappy. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 6 20:17:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:17:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Build your %$@! computer here. In-Reply-To: <200503070126.RAA13776@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I quite agree. Here in Canada Radio Shack has moved into the mass consumer > > market leaving the electronic hobbyist to fend for himself. > > That sounds an awful lot like the Rat Schlocks in the United States. I actually found some switches I needed at an RS that I could not find anywhere else (including all the finest electronics surplus shops the Silicon Valley had to offer). That stuff seems to be phasing out now also however :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 6 20:49:18 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:49:18 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422BC12E.90800@mdrconsult.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' to the > credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is disabled or replaced? > Are there sources for the keys? My ancient RS/6000 has the lock > 'sprung' so that any screwdriver will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 has > the lock intact (and I have the key). I don't know about credentials, but the aesthetics are certainly diminished in my eyes. And if it's a choice of having an intact ornament and a looted, running system, I'll drill it or spring it ina heartbeat. I have keys to all my RS/6000s, and my SS1000 is drilled out. ;) Doc From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 20:59:51 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 18:59:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050306185255.G648@localhost> On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I did away with my backup server. Spamming software often seems to > ignore precedence, though I'm not sure whether that's deliberate or > sloppiness. But there's no easy way for my backup server to have a > list of valid email addresses on the primary, so the backup will accept > anything for the local domains. The backup kept falling over because > its queue was growing faster than it could process the entries. The exploit is based upon the fact that the destination host rejects unknown users; MX backups, not having that information, generally accept *@domain, so the spammer hack is to find the n>0th MX host, and queue it all up there. SPreads the load. What we did was simply use virtusertable on the MX host to list each and every single valid user. CLearly this doesn't scale for many users but for the dozen or so we have it's fine. /etc/mail/virtusertable also handles all the virtual domains etc all i one place. From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 21:10:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:10:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050306190244.S648@localhost> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Have you ever heard of the word SOVEREIGNTY? I run my own servers for > everything because I exercise my right to be totally independent from the > outside world. I'll keep running when the rest of the world explodes in > the thermonuclear holocaust. That's not the issue. I agree with you -- we have our own hardware machine in a rack in a colo with 3 * 100megabits to three different ASs. Our own nameservers and all. Hell my friend that allows this has his own /16. The issue is that in the year 2005 yuo need to have a substantial-enough connection to be reliable. Expectations have risen along with file and mail size. I can't speak for Jay, but it's clear that classiccmp is moving as much mail as a netcom.com or aol.com was 10 years ago. If my, or your, site can't keep up with it, it's no longer acceptable. Fairness has nothing to do with it. > It is extremely hypocritical > of you to shut me out because I run my entire operation on CLASSIC hardware > with CLASSIC software in the CLASSIC manner, using business practices of > the CLASSIC computing era, exactly as it was done on ARPA Internet in 1980s. All you need is 99% uptime on port 25 and you're in the game. That said, I also think the two tries within 35 minutes won't cut it. Dead paths, routers and hosts still happens. THe 4-day thing is a good idea. Personally I don't care if mail is delayed; it sure beats not gettign mail. oo From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Sun Mar 6 21:13:29 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:13:29 -0600 Subject: 8-bit low profile ethernet card? Message-ID: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> I'm looking for a 1/2 to 2/3 height 8-bit ISA Ethernet card. It's for an embedded type application. I can find "short" cards in terms of length, but not in terms of height. Anyone have any leads for me here? :) -- Ryan Underwood, From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 6 21:19:05 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 19:19:05 -0800 Subject: Surplus places in/near Vegas... Message-ID: <200503061919050889.21901472@192.168.42.129> Fellow scroungers, I'm going to be in Las Vegas around the latter part of July. I would appreciate knowing about any surplus electronics places that would be worth a look. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 6 21:19:17 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:19:17 -0500 Subject: 8-bit low profile ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> References: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <422BC835.20402@mdrconsult.com> Ryan Underwood wrote: > I'm looking for a 1/2 to 2/3 height 8-bit ISA Ethernet card. It's for > an embedded type application. I can find "short" cards in terms of > length, but not in terms of height. Anyone have any leads for me here? > :) The later 3C509 series were half-height. I may even have a couple of those to spare, but I won't be where I can look till Saturday. IIRC, the "Real" Novell NE2000 boards are also half-height. Doc From medavidson at mac.com Sun Mar 6 21:26:18 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:26:18 -0800 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mar 6, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:08:09 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce >> wrote: > >> This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that >> one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an >> Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the >> 'classicalness', IMHO. > > Or Amiga UNIX.... > > I did get Amiga UNIX(R) v2.1 installed from tape and running on an > A3000 last week, but the A2500 spits a kernel panic late in the kernel > load during install. I didn't have time to do much debugging at all, > but the v2.01, v2.03, and v2.1 boot/root floppies died at the same > point. > > It's an interesting SysVR4 implementation, to say the least. :) On > a loaded A3000 (16MB ZIP RAM, 2MB chip RAM) it's also surpisingly > snappy. > > Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... that is one VERY difficult thing to find. You know, Unix ran for years on very "low-level" hardware and has usually been very snappy. Take a look at the original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a 33 MHz 68040 and it was very responsive. I have an old AT&T box that runs AT&T Unix and I know it can't be faster than 30 MHz, and yet it runs Oracle! Mark From medavidson at mac.com Sun Mar 6 21:27:54 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:27:54 -0800 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <422BC12E.90800@mdrconsult.com> References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422BC12E.90800@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <0d5b7e78468acd2ac2b9e507a96e6cdc@mac.com> On Mar 6, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > >> (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' to the >> credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is disabled or >> replaced? >> Are there sources for the keys? My ancient RS/6000 has the lock >> 'sprung' so that any screwdriver will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 >> has >> the lock intact (and I have the key). > > I don't know about credentials, but the aesthetics are certainly > diminished in my eyes. And if it's a choice of having an intact > ornament and a looted, running system, I'll drill it or spring it ina > heartbeat. > > I have keys to all my RS/6000s, and my SS1000 is drilled out. ;) > Yes, I have an Alpha desktop that has no key, but supposedly there is a way to open the case with a screwdriver and some patience... I would love to open it and add more RAM, that was I can run SVR4 from DEC/Compaq on it. Mark From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 6 21:31:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:31:03 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG><00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com><32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050306185255.G648@localhost> Message-ID: <000c01c522c6$178e2df0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tom wrote... > The exploit is based upon the fact that the destination host > rejects unknown users; MX backups, not having that information, > generally accept *@domain, so the spammer hack is to find the > n>0th MX host, and queue it all up there. SPreads the load. > > What we did was simply use virtusertable on the MX host to list > each and every single valid user. CLearly this doesn't scale for > many users but for the dozen or so we have it's fine. > /etc/mail/virtusertable also handles all the virtual domains etc > all i one place. There's a little better way to handle this....I do have a direct line to one of the programmers inside Sendmail.org. Their internal direction is all LDAP based for local user tests, replacement of getuserinfo, etc. There's obviously a noticeable trend towards this in the released code as well. So, long story short, put all your users in LDAP for sendmail. Then you don't run the security risk of having local user accounts for email customers, AND all your MX hosts have access to the LDAP database to prevent the exploit you mentioned above. Regards, Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 6 21:41:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:41:38 -0700 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... that is > one VERY difficult thing to find. You know, Unix ran for years on very > "low-level" hardware and has usually been very snappy. Take a look at > the original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a 33 MHz 68040 and it > was very responsive. I have an old AT&T box that runs AT&T Unix and I > know it can't be faster than 30 MHz, and yet it runs Oracle! It actually wasn't very difficult. Of course, I just happened to have a tape streamer that the installer doesn't hate. The A3000UX had custom v1.4 ROMs and a special Zorro-II framebuffer, but a box-stock A3000 with (I think) 4MB+ and v2.04 ROMs will happily run UNIX. The A3070 tape drive is a firmwared Archive Viper, but my Tandberg TDC 4220 (and by extension probably a TDC 3600), an Archive 2150, and a couple others are known to work. There's also a hacked-up install process available (that just builds filesystems and then blows in all the files with no package management at all) that will install from a spare disk instead of tape. The code is Out There, but like so much else here it's still under copyright, but there's nobody around to license it. And yes, I also have a Turbo Slab, which doesn't suck at all. :) Doc From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 6 22:05:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:05:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050306200459.E648@localhost> > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> So anyway, when I was formatting the disk, it didn't seem to like the last >> 4-6 tracks or so. Above the clatter of the noisy fan (bad bearings) I On Sat, 5 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. > > STOP IT!!!! > > You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a > driver for 8". Good call! I missed that... From dundas at caltech.edu Sun Mar 6 22:05:39 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:05:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free: Tektronix Plot 10 mag tape Message-ID: <1862339963dundas@caltech.edu> Joe, I would like that tape if it hasn't already been claimed. Thanks, John > I went scrounging today and found this. I can't use it but it's too good > to waste so I thought I'd see if anyone here could use it. It's on a small > tape spool and is marked "4010A01 Plot 10(R) Terminal Control System Level > 5.01 (C)Copyright Tektronix Inc 1988 Format IBM ASCII 1600 BPI Label: > None Serial No. B074512 Record: 80 Block: 800 Option: 08". > > Joe > > > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 22:36:12 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:36:12 +0800 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20050307020900.MATU25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050307020900.MATU25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:09:01 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > All the discussion on stacking two PC supplies and cutting > grounds to try and keep them isolated seems like asking > for trouble.... Asking for trouble is correct. After all, to get 24V and I don't think a typical 8" drive will surpass 1A anyway, a LM317 plus a couple of passives and a small transformer is more than enough to do the job. If you get the LM317K, then it'll even do up till 1.5A provided you give it an appropriately-sized heatsink. /wai-sun From drb at msu.edu Sun Mar 6 22:55:15 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:55:15 -0500 Subject: 11/45 progress In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:42:06 GMT.) <10503031342.ZM8265@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10503031342.ZM8265@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <02b601c51fb8$00933ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200503070455.j274tF7J007154@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The console on all PDP-11s is at the same place, 777560-777566 (add > "17" in front for a 22-bit system, though). The first word is the > receive control and status register (CSR), the next is the receive > buffer register, then the transmit CSR, and lastly the transmit buffer > register. So if you have a terminal connected, and with baud rate, > parity, and word size to match the M7800 settings, simply DEPositing a > value into 777566 should cause the corresponding ASCII character to > appear on your terminal. If you type a character on the terminal, it > should appear in the lowest 8 bits of 777562. Should this work in the simh emulator? I can't seem to get it to happen. But maybe I'm just having a stoopid day. De From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Mar 6 22:53:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:53:42 -0600 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting References: <20050307020900.MATU25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <000601c522d1$aa11ce10$373cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Wai-Sun Chia" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 10:36 PM > On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:09:01 -0500, Dave Dunfield > wrote: >> All the discussion on stacking two PC supplies and cutting >> grounds to try and keep them isolated seems like asking >> for trouble.... > > Asking for trouble is correct. > After all, to get 24V and I don't think a typical 8" drive will > surpass 1A anyway, a LM317 plus a couple of passives and a small > transformer is more than enough to do the job. If you get the LM317K, > then it'll even do up till 1.5A provided you give it an > appropriately-sized heatsink. > > /wai-sun SA800's require 1.7A on the 24v line. Randy From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 23:17:14 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:17:14 +0800 Subject: IBM S/390 mainframe on epay Message-ID: Anybody has extra electrical power and nowhere to burn it? Or anybody trying to upgrade their central heating system? Get it now! ;-) http://tinyurl.com/6yqbv /wai-sun From drb at msu.edu Sun Mar 6 23:19:30 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 00:19:30 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 04 Mar 2005 13:36:56 EST.) <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> References: <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> Message-ID: <200503070519.j275JU6K007958@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > So, what else have we got out there for file/directory path > separators? We've got DEC's "DEVICE:[DIR.SUB]FILE.TXT;1" and > uhm... actually, I can't think of the conventions for any others > at the moment. Can anybody think of any interesting ones? I can't > remember what DomainOS did, but I remember it striking me when I > learned of it. Mainframes? RTOSes? Primos used dir>subdir>filename. I think the syntax came from Multics? Prime certainly borrowed a number of other ideas from that source. I seem to recall AOS-VS using colons. Didn't ITS use a semicolon to delimit "directories"? Oh, I know! CP/M used "USER nn". :-) De From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 6 23:22:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:22:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200503070524.AAA09400@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Take a look at the original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a > 33 MHz 68040 and it was very responsive. Don't forget the DSP (56001) and custom blitter chip. I think the blitter contributes more to responsive feel than anything else, because it offloads a lot of the screen rendering work from the main cpu, and screen rendering is a major contributor to snappy feel. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 23:36:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:36:47 -0500 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes on classic hardware) In-Reply-To: <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:41:38 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > Mark Davidson wrote: > > > Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... As would I. I have enough of the hardware (even a Viking Moniterm card and monitor - 1008 x 1008 4-grey oddball framebuffer - 19" version of the A2024), and even have the install images, somewhere. > > Take a look at > > the original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a 33 MHz 68040 and it > > was very responsive.... > > And yes, I also have a Turbo Slab, which doesn't suck at all. :) I have a 25MHz slab and an upgraded Cube... fun stuff. It really helps, of course, that it's not trying to slog around 24-bits worth of framebuffer info. One bane of any older platform is when there are lots of colors and moving windows to deal with. -ethan From elf at ucsd.edu Sun Mar 6 23:38:39 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 21:38:39 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050306213333.0306d690@popmail.ucsd.edu> VCF wrote: >>> http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Apple%20IIe.jpg >>> http://www.siconic.com/computers/Swyft%20Card.jpg Ethan wrote: >> Pretty slick... any idea what the LM311 and the PAL >> do? Copy protection? VCF wrote: > I have no idea, and the man best suited to answer the > question is gone now ;( I'm sure some documentation > still remains. Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn might > actually have some relevant stuff. And least of all, > I'm pretty certain all of Jef's notes and such will be > preserved. Perhaps this fellow could provide some insight as well: http://www.regnirps.com/resume.htm Scroll down about half-way to the end of the page to read about his time & involvement with Information Appliance, Inc. Bonus: there's a way-cool photo of a Swyft prototype (in a plexi-glass shell, no less) for the Canon Cat on this web page. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 6 23:45:34 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 22:45:34 -0700 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes on classic hardware) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <422BEA7E.6010609@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:41:38 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> >>>Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... > > > As would I. I have enough of the hardware (even a Viking Moniterm > card and monitor - 1008 x 1008 4-grey oddball framebuffer - 19" > version of the A2024), and even have the install images, somewhere. Hmmm. The pedigree of the install code I'm using is, ummm, "murky" at best. I *think* it's the original v2.1 tape and floppy images, but I wouldn't be lunch that they're pristine. Known-original install images would be verrah nyhze.... I have to say that even the CLI is horrible on a 1084 display. I have to turn the contrast waaayyy down to keep text mode from vibrating. The internal flicker-fixer and a good multisync helps a lot, though. > I have a 25MHz slab and an upgraded Cube... fun stuff. It really > helps, of course, that it's not trying to slog around 24-bits worth of > framebuffer info. One bane of any older platform is when there are > lots of colors and moving windows to deal with. Very, very true. And let's not forget the 19.2MB JPEG background image. ;) Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 6 23:59:36 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:59:36 -0500 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> <422BEA7E.6010609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <015201c522da$e0e81c10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: "Ethan Dicks" ; Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:45 AM Subject: Re: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:41:38 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > >>Mark Davidson wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... > > > > > > As would I. I have enough of the hardware (even a Viking Moniterm > > card and monitor - 1008 x 1008 4-grey oddball framebuffer - 19" > > version of the A2024), and even have the install images, somewhere. > > Hmmm. The pedigree of the install code I'm using is, ummm, "murky" > at best. I *think* it's the original v2.1 tape and floppy images, but I > wouldn't be lunch that they're pristine. Known-original install images > would be verrah nyhze.... > > I have to say that even the CLI is horrible on a 1084 display. I > have to turn the contrast waaayyy down to keep text mode from vibrating. > The internal flicker-fixer and a good multisync helps a lot, though. > > > I have a 25MHz slab and an upgraded Cube... fun stuff. It really > > helps, of course, that it's not trying to slog around 24-bits worth of > > framebuffer info. One bane of any older platform is when there are > > lots of colors and moving windows to deal with. > > Very, very true. And let's not forget the 19.2MB JPEG background > image. ;) > > > Doc I have A/UX 3.1 running on my AWS 95 Mac (well a Quadra 950 with the PDS upgrade board), is that close enough? Original CD's and manuals of course. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 00:00:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:00:30 -0600 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net>; from chenmel@earthlink.net on Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 04:19:42PM -0500 References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 04:19:42PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > and all the details and stuff. The 6300 (I once owned one) can be a > frustrating machine, because it is NOT a clone machine. You can't put > high density drives in it easily, for instance. It's big selling point > was being an 8086 machine in the era when everybody used 8088 machines. I am intimately familiar with the 6300 because it was my first PC, and my only PC for 5 years until I went to college. I upgraded the BIOS and DMA controller so I could run a later version of Microsoft Word (the DOS version, not the crap windows version), I cut a hole in the case to add a 3rd 720K floppy drive, bored out a hole to add a headphone jack, replaced my 8086 with an NEC V30, added an 8087, and a hard-drive-on-a-card. Short of replacing the video card (which was ironically much harder to do properly than all of the other things I just mentioned), I tricked that thing out years before adding blinkenlights to cases was cool. I even found a lower DRAM refresh rate that didn't lock up the machine so that I could get an additional 10% out of it. Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 00:03:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:03:30 -0600 Subject: Got 8' drive on PC working In-Reply-To: ; from vcf@siconic.com on Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 10:55:19PM -0800 References: <33239.64.169.63.74.1110076926.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050307000330.D27255@homer.berkhirt.com> On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 10:55:19PM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I experimented very briefly with this the last time I tried getting this > to work but not enough to come up with anything conclusive. DOS does seem > to expect a certain combination of "sane" values. Yes, see my note about using FDFORMAT instead. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 00:06:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:06:58 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:00:30 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an > Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. Nice. I never owned one, but I saw plenty on the scrap heap... nice source of Micropolis 1335 MFM drives that can trivially be turned into RD53s after reformatting. :-) -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 7 00:22:13 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:22:13 -0500 Subject: IBM S/390 mainframe on epay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503070122.14071.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 March 2005 00:17, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Anybody has extra electrical power and nowhere to burn it? > Or anybody trying to upgrade their central heating system? > > Get it now! ;-) > http://tinyurl.com/6yqbv Actually, S/390s don't use all *that* much power. They're rated for around 0.6-5.6kW for the CPU, with 5.6kW probably for a completely loaded 2-frame system. That one probably draws less than 1.5kW. The one I've got drew about 1.8kW when it was up and running. Massively less than a furnace does (when running, not necessarily average load). Also, you'll need (or at least want) more than just a CPU to get a usable system. Think disk drive controller (1 rack) drive array(s) (1 or more racks), tape drive and controller (2 racks for a 3480/3490 or an emulator device plus a peecee or UNIX box), a terminal controller (size runs between a 12" tall box and a full rack), and some sort of 3270-type terminal. If you want to do S390/Linux on it, you can probably get away with just the CPU + a tape emulator to boot from (think NFS-root). That's not a great way to run things though. That being said, I might actually spring for that guy, as he's not *too* far from me, and for a reasonable start bid (less than the $1k other ones seem to be starting at). It's even a newer generation than what I've got (it's a G4, I've got a G3). Unfortunately, not old enough to be "classic" as per the 10-year rule, but still fun in my book. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 7 00:38:10 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:38:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422B95A8.60800@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 06, 2005 11:43:36 PM Message-ID: <20050307063811.74EC37302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Gordon JC Pearce once stated: > > Jay West wrote: > > > 2) I changed the max time in queue for any message (outbound) to 35 > > minutes. This means the server will try to send email to you once, then > > again 30 minutes later, and then it will just give up on you. It won't > > unsubscribe you at that point, it takes like 7 days of bounces to get > > you unsubbed. But it won't try to send you any given list post more than > > twice now. Same reason as above. I'm wondering what brought this on, because I *just* started getting email again. I run my email server at home (basically because the coloated server it used to be on was removed without much notice---long story with that). But then over the past week, I moved houses. My domain (as well as a few others) have backup MX hosts (two) but I was concerned about getting my system up and running within four days (as it was, seven days). I'm not sure if any of my email actually bounced (it queued up for three days on my back up MX servers, then when I tried to have the mail delivered locally on one of the backup MX servers it was all sent to a friend for some bizarre reason I'm still trying to fathom) but I'm glad to see I haven't been unsubscribed here. -spc (Not only was I moving, but the office I work in was moving as well ... it was *not* a good week ... ) From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 00:48:09 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:48:09 +0800 Subject: IBM S/390 mainframe on epay In-Reply-To: <200503070122.14071.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200503070122.14071.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:22:13 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > That being said, I might actually spring for that guy, as he's not *too* > far from me, and for a reasonable start bid (less than the $1k other > ones seem to be starting at). It's even a newer generation than what > I've got (it's a G4, I've got a G3). > > Unfortunately, not old enough to be "classic" as per the 10-year rule, > but still fun in my book. :) Just curious, what year vintage is the S/390? /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 00:50:36 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:50:36 +0800 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:06:58 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Nice. I never owned one, but I saw plenty on the scrap heap... nice > source of Micropolis 1335 MFM drives that can trivially be turned into > RD53s after reformatting. :-) Hot damn! Any more where those came from? :-) /wai-sun From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 7 00:55:56 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:55:56 -0500 Subject: IBM S/390 mainframe on epay In-Reply-To: References: <200503070122.14071.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200503070155.56506.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 March 2005 01:48, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:22:13 -0500, Patrick Finnegan > > wrote: > > That being said, I might actually spring for that guy, as he's not > > *too* far from me, and for a reasonable start bid (less than the > > $1k other ones seem to be starting at). It's even a newer > > generation than what I've got (it's a G4, I've got a G3). > > > > Unfortunately, not old enough to be "classic" as per the 10-year > > rule, but still fun in my book. :) > > Just curious, what year vintage is the S/390? S/390s have been made since the early 90s, and are still being sold by IBM today (Gen 5/6 models). That one was probably born somewhere between 1996-1999. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 6 14:40:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:40:01 +0000 Subject: Big list of floppy disk formats? Message-ID: <1110141601.24093.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Does such a thing exist? It'd be nice to have an online resource of all the different floppy disk formats used by different machines. Yes, that's one huge list, and would likely never be complete - but as I haven't come across an attempt at all so far, it'd be better than hunting around for the data when needed. I'd be happy to collate stuff if it's thought to be a good idea - I could make it available online too (although maybe one of the recognised repositories such as bitsavers would bea better place) Data can be fed into the futurekeep project as and when necessary, as it's something that'll be needed there too one day. thoughts? J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 04:27:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:27:39 +0000 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1110191259.25439.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 18:43 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: > > Scott> (to bring this back on-topic) Do people feel it is 'damaging' > Scott> to the credentials of a classic machine if the keylock is > Scott> disabled or replaced? Are there sources for the keys? My > Scott> ancient RS/6000 has the lock 'sprung' so that any screwdriver > Scott> will turn it. My SparcServer 1000 has the lock intact (and I > Scott> have the key). > > In the case of DEC, there are only two locks that I know of. One is > an ACE (tubular key) lock; the other is a 3 or 4 pin flat key lock. > They have always been keyed alike since the beginning of time. I've found that it's ridiculously cheap over here to get a flat key made if you just take the lock in to the right people; no need to have the original key or even any kind of lock number. I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 04:35:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:35:29 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1110191729.25439.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 23:47 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I am loath to say this, because I will almost certainly have massive > downtime tomorrow... > > I am on (nominally) dynamic IP space, on NTL cable. My IP address has > changed once, when I changed MAC addresses (built my firewall machine). > My uptime has been better than the 8-grand-per-month leased line we > had at my old job. Hmm. My NTL cable crapped out weekend before last and started dropping 50% of packets. Then it worked for 5 days, then started doing the same again on Friday. Saturday the link was totally dead apart from 5 minutes where it came back, Sunday it actually came back properly for 3 hours or so, then did an hour of dropping 50% of data again, then fell over completely. This morning it's up and running 100% again, but I don't know for how long. I'd expect a big company like NTL to have all sort of network monitoring to detect this kind of thing and replace hardware at the first sign of trouble (asking around, it's not just me and is affecting a fairly wide area). Unless they *do* have network monitoring and some monkey's been sat in a room to hit the reboot button when it gets over 50% data loss, because they can't be bothered replacing whatever's broken. Would explain weekends being worse too as said monkey is probably too drunk / hungover to hit the switch. Grrr. Oh to have a BT phone line (rather than an NTL one) so that I could change ISPs! (all ADSL vendors in the UK make it a condition of service that you have to rent a BT phone line before you can use their offering) Ah, that feels a little better! :) J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 04:41:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:41:52 +0000 Subject: 8-bit low profile ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> References: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <1110192112.25439.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 21:13 -0600, Ryan Underwood wrote: > I'm looking for a 1/2 to 2/3 height 8-bit ISA Ethernet card. It's for > an embedded type application. I can find "short" cards in terms of > length, but not in terms of height. Anyone have any leads for me here? > :) Hmm, is making up a right-angled bracket and laying a card flat an option? That's what I've had to do in the past on occasion. (I'm finally sick of hard drive noise on this 'ere desktop too, so a diskless client in an old xterminal box is on the cards as soon as I trip over a suitable motherboard that doesn't have monster heat dissipation requirements... going to have some interesting space issues with that one I expect) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 04:43:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:43:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Canon Cat -- what's it really like? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050306174913.021b9eb0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <34272.64.169.63.74.1110192218.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan wrote: > My recollection is that the Apple II motherboard pre-decodes address > ranges on behalf of the cards and does _not_ present A0-A15 raw to the > slot. A0-A15 are on pins 2-17 of the slot connector. They are buffered, both to increase the drive capability and because the standard 6502 didn't provide a way to disable the on-chip address drivers, which is necessary to support DMA. Most cards don't need to use A12 through A15 because of the available decode lines, but they're certainly available. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 04:47:25 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 02:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <20050306185255.G648@localhost> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050306185255.G648@localhost> Message-ID: <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: > I did away with my backup server. Spamming software often seems to > ignore precedence, though I'm not sure whether that's deliberate or > sloppiness. Tom wrote: > The exploit is based upon the fact that the destination host > rejects unknown users; MX backups, not having that information, > generally accept *@domain, so the spammer hack is to find the > n>0th MX host, and queue it all up there. SPreads the load. I don't see how it "spreads the load" or how the spammer benefits in any way. The spammer wants to get the spam to as many valid email addresses as possible, but sending to the backup MX doesn't get it to more valid email addresses, and it doesn't reduce the load on the spammer's sending machine. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 04:48:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:48:24 +0000 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope (was Re: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch) In-Reply-To: References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> Message-ID: <1110192504.25439.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 20:06 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:51:23 -0600, John Foust wrote: > > That's right, tools are on-topic if they're being used to repair > > old computers, unless the tools run Windows. :-) > > Unfortunately, there has been this trend lately for multi-channel > digital O-scopes to be Windows-based. To me that implies that the company behind such beasts have no clue what they're doing, given that alternatives exist that are far more robust and don't have licensing requirements that push the cost up. Presumably such machines boot from hard disk too? (I've never seen any flavour of Windows boot from ROM). Although maybe there are other reasons to have a hard disk in there anyway (logging etc.) but personally I'd rather have a network connection on the back of the device and do any such logging on a commodity PC server elsewhere. > Doesn't bode well for the future... Maybe it's one of those things that'll sort itself out; more robust and cheaper products will doubtless emerge that *don't* use Windows. I can't forsee any selling point that makes Windows sound better than any alternative. (Mind you, I'd say the same for things like set-top boxes, music devices, hard-disk video recorders etc. and lots of those seem to suffer from the same disease) cheers J. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 05:16:58 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:16:58 GMT Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope (was Re: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch) In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope (was Re: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch)" (Mar 7, 10:48) References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> <1110192504.25439.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503071116.ZM19575@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 10:48, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 20:06 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Unfortunately, there has been this trend lately for multi-channel > > digital O-scopes to be Windows-based. > > To me that implies that the company behind such beasts have no clue what > they're doing, given that alternatives exist that are far more robust > and don't have licensing requirements that push the cost up. Well, I won't claim that this refutes the above, but I know that some Tek products have used W95/W98 for many years. One of the grooups in CompSci rented a fancy digital scope/analyser some years ago ((1998-ish) and discovered it was running W95 underneath. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 7 05:34:19 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 06:34:19 -0500 Subject: Chorus Systemes? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:43:42 PST." Message-ID: <200503071134.j27BYJuQ013631@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Anyone know anything about Chorus Systemes and what they were up to >> circa 1990? I'm just unravelling a lot of old internal Acorn >> code/documentation and the name's cropping up quite a bit... >> >> (I do recall using a distributed system called Chorus in the early 90's, >> but I have no idea if that's at all related...) > >Chorus Data Systems perhaps? They made digitizers (for photos) in the >1980s. I'm currently looking for information on their picture file >format, as nothing I have can decode them. I was thinking it was the Chorus that made a Mach (or mach-like) OS. I think they where a French company. -brad From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 05:55:52 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:55:52 GMT Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: picking locks" (Mar 7, 10:27) References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1110191259.25439.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503071155.ZM19661@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 10:27, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 18:43 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > > In the case of DEC, there are only two locks that I know of. One is > > an ACE (tubular key) lock; the other is a 3 or 4 pin flat key lock. > > They have always been keyed alike since the beginning of time. > > I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a > tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup > for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) One of the "while you wait" places in York can do tubulars, but only when the boss is around as they claim it's trickier to get the depths exactly right. They cut a DEC key for me and it wasn't right so they re-made it. One of the better ironmongers near here can do various keys, including, I think, tubulars. They've cut bike D-lock keys, Mul-T-Lock security keys and various other odd ones for me. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 05:58:02 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:58:02 GMT Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: minor list changes" (Mar 7, 10:35) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D23@sbs.jdfogg.com> <422B9684.90604@gjcp.net> <1110191729.25439.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503071158.ZM19664@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 10:35, Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh to have a BT phone line (rather than an NTL one) so that I could > change ISPs! (all ADSL vendors in the UK make it a condition of service > that you have to rent a BT phone line before you can use their offering) > Don't some of the companies that do LLU (local loop unbundling) do it even for a non-BT line? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 06:49:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:49:28 +0000 Subject: Chorus Systemes? In-Reply-To: <200503071134.j27BYJuQ013631@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200503071134.j27BYJuQ013631@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1110199768.25455.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 06:34 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> Anyone know anything about Chorus Systemes and what they were up to > >> circa 1990? I'm just unravelling a lot of old internal Acorn > >> code/documentation and the name's cropping up quite a bit... > >> > >> (I do recall using a distributed system called Chorus in the early 90's, > >> but I have no idea if that's at all related...) > > > >Chorus Data Systems perhaps? They made digitizers (for photos) in the > >1980s. I'm currently looking for information on their picture file > >format, as nothing I have can decode them. > > I was thinking it was the Chorus that made a Mach (or mach-like) OS. I think > they where a French company. Aha - yep. Explains the large amount of Mach source that I found on the same tape in that case :-) Definitely French whoever they are/were, hence the "Systemes". I'm trying to trace copyright ownership on all of this stuff at the moment to see if I can make it all available. There's some source to various Acorn things, including some partnership / relationship with Chorus, and the stillborn ARX OS - plus documents that show Acorn's thinking on CPU and OS direction in the early 90's. I love finding stuff like this, but I suspect that I'm not going to be allowed to share it :-( cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 07:35:24 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 06:35:24 -0700 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) In-Reply-To: <015201c522da$e0e81c10$0500fea9@game> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <422BCD72.3050409@mdrconsult.com> <422BEA7E.6010609@mdrconsult.com> <015201c522da$e0e81c10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <422C589C.6040204@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have A/UX 3.1 running on my AWS 95 Mac (well a Quadra 950 with the PDS > upgrade board), is that close enough? Original CD's and manuals of course. Yep! I have a IIci with a DiiMO '030/50 running A/UX, but I do lust for a Workgroup Server. And four more 16MB SIMMs, of course. :) Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 07:27:02 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:27:02 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050306185255.G648@localhost> <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307072059.050bfae8@mail> At 04:47 AM 3/7/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >I don't see how it "spreads the load" or how the spammer benefits >in any way. The spammer wants to get the spam to as many valid >email addresses as possible, but sending to the backup MX doesn't >get it to more valid email addresses, and it doesn't reduce the >load on the spammer's sending machine. Were they talking about relaying and authenticating senders, or about sending to a user at the MX[n] host? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 07:38:34 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:38:34 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <20050306190244.S648@localhost> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> At 09:10 PM 3/6/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >Expectations have >risen along with file and mail size. I can't speak for Jay, but >it's clear that classiccmp is moving as much mail as a netcom.com >or aol.com was 10 years ago. If my, or your, site can't keep up >with it, it's no longer acceptable. Gee, I thought that my previous post would've generated more nibbles: At 09:08 PM 3/5/2005, John Foust wrote: >It all makes me wonder if the schism shouldn't be towards replacing >the mailing list with a web forum. That'll show the people who are >stuck reading this list on dial-up at 300 baud on an ASR-33. >On a web, the crud can be edited, threads corralled, useful messages >moved to the FAQ, etc. Talk about the inevitability of using modern tools to support our habit of old computers. A few more Slashdottings on interesting topics and this list could expand. Would a doubling of list traffic and/or subscribers cause undue burden, or at least cause the current volunteers to run away screaming? At what point will the list traffic exceed the mail-acceptance levels of either old VAXes or people running mail servers on consumer-grade connections or people's willingness to wade through mail, message by message? Yes, a web forum would be Different and All, but at least it throws away all this haggling about list traffic and MX debugging. A little LAMP server, a little postNuke, we could be up in minutes. Yes, I know it would require a modern web browser. Is this the Civil War re-enactor list? Are my buttons and hardtack not authentic enough? Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? - John From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 07:39:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:39:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes on classic hardware) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 20:41:38 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Mark Davidson wrote: > > > > > Oh man, I would *love* to have AmigaUnix running on an Amiga... > > As would I. I have enough of the hardware (even a Viking Moniterm > card and monitor - 1008 x 1008 4-grey oddball framebuffer - 19" > version of the A2024), and even have the install images, somewhere. Wasn't it you who posted a link to the install tape image online? At any rate, it's available and online, if you want to try installing it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 07:45:53 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 06:45:53 -0700 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <422C5B11.80302@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 04:19:42PM -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an > Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. Got a pinout conversion for a display cable? I know at one point I saw that On Teh Inturweb, but I didn't print it and the link is dead. Doc From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Mon Mar 7 08:48:38 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:48:38 +1000 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050308004838.009a8860@pop-server> At 12:00 AM 3/7/05 -0600, you wrote: >I am intimately familiar with the 6300 because it was my first PC, and >my only PC for 5 years until I went to college. I upgraded the BIOS and >DMA controller so I could run a later version of Microsoft Word (the DOS >version, not the crap windows version), I cut a hole in the case to add a >3rd 720K floppy drive, bored out a hole to add a headphone jack, replaced >my 8086 with an NEC V30, added an 8087, and a hard-drive-on-a-card. >Short of replacing the video card (which was ironically much harder to >do properly than all of the other things I just mentioned), I tricked >that thing out years before adding blinkenlights to cases was cool. >I even found a lower DRAM refresh rate that didn't lock up the >machine so that I could get an additional 10% out of it. As XTs go they ran quicker than a 5160 just simply because of the 8086 and 16 bit memory, the V30 made things even better. I don't know why but around here they rarely ever retained their original monitors, back when an XT based system was still viable for daily use most of the ones I saw had Taxan Supervision monitors hooked to the original video card with a custom cable. Most had the 12" Taxan Supervision IV, but there was also a 17" Taxan Supervision 770 (I may have the model wrong, but it was definitely TTL RGBI at SuperCGA resolution, not a Multisync or SVGA). I did similar tricks back in the day with an Amstrad 1640, which was in someways more difficult to work with as it had onboard video, and the power supply was in the monitor. It did have a 640x200x16 color mode before EGA though (though a version with EGA did come out later). Would have been a nicer machine if it wasn't stuck with such an awful keyboard and monitor, though I guess it's to be expected at that price. One company even came out with a 386 motherboard to fit the oddball case. Being stuck with the 1640s EGA display kind of doomed it though. If I found one I'd be tempted to stick one of those 486 upgrades in it. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 07:45:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:45:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big list of floppy disk formats? In-Reply-To: <1110141601.24093.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does such a thing exist? It'd be nice to have an online resource of all > the different floppy disk formats used by different machines. > > Yes, that's one huge list, and would likely never be complete - but as I > haven't come across an attempt at all so far, it'd be better than > hunting around for the data when needed. > > I'd be happy to collate stuff if it's thought to be a good idea - I > could make it available online too (although maybe one of the recognised > repositories such as bitsavers would bea better place) > > Data can be fed into the futurekeep project as and when necessary, as > it's something that'll be needed there too one day. In fact, we discussed compiling such a list and I created some tools to do sso, but the effort petered out before it began. I have the database tools all ready. Well, they need some tweaking actually, because we determined we need separate database tables for each type of media (floppy, punched cards, etc.) Contact me off-list and we'll get it going again, make the webtool public, and then let people contribute for the benefit of all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 07:48:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <1110191729.25439.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 23:47 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I am loath to say this, because I will almost certainly have massive > > downtime tomorrow... > > > > I am on (nominally) dynamic IP space, on NTL cable. My IP address has > > changed once, when I changed MAC addresses (built my firewall machine). > > My uptime has been better than the 8-grand-per-month leased line we > > had at my old job. > > > Hmm. My NTL cable crapped out weekend before last and started dropping > 50% of packets. Then it worked for 5 days, then started doing the same > again on Friday. Saturday the link was totally dead apart from 5 minutes > where it came back, Sunday it actually came back properly for 3 hours or > so, then did an hour of dropping 50% of data again, then fell over > completely. This morning it's up and running 100% again, but I don't > know for how long. > > I'd expect a big company like NTL to have all sort of network monitoring > to detect this kind of thing and replace hardware at the first sign of > trouble (asking around, it's not just me and is affecting a fairly wide > area). I had the same problem with my local carrier (SBC, one of the biggies, just bought AT&T, etc.) You'd think these idiots would know when one of their servers was acting up, but no, it took several useless calls to tech "support" talking to people in India that really don't know what they're doing before I was finally connected to someone who knew what to do to fix the problem. I was down three times in 5 days thanks to a malfunctioning router. I'm not yet convinced the problem is fixed (it was intermittent) but we'll see. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 08:03:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:03:10 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> Message-ID: <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: > Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? Because the web is shit for just about everything? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 08:04:37 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:04:37 -0700 Subject: Going Way OT; Re: 8-bit low profile ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <1110192112.25439.19.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> <1110192112.25439.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422C5F75.70607@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > (I'm finally sick of hard drive noise on this 'ere desktop too, so a > diskless client in an old xterminal box is on the cards as soon as I > trip over a suitable motherboard that doesn't have monster heat > dissipation requirements... going to have some interesting space issues > with that one I expect) Those VIA mini-ITX boards (600-1000MHz Eden proc) make pretty good X-Terminals. If you get a mini-case with wall-wart instead of internal PSU, you can run completely solid-state. Onboard graphics are decent, probably better than the old xterminal had, or they have a PCI slot if you want high-end video. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 7 08:10:28 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:10:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) In-Reply-To: <422C589C.6040204@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Mar 7, 5 06:35:24 am" Message-ID: <200503071410.GAA18774@floodgap.com> > > I have A/UX 3.1 running on my AWS 95 Mac (well a Quadra 950 with the PDS > > upgrade board), is that close enough? Original CD's and manuals of course. > > Yep! > > I have a IIci with a DiiMO '030/50 running A/UX, but I do lust for a > Workgroup Server. And four more 16MB SIMMs, of course. :) I'll chime in. My setup is nearly the same as Doc's, except it's a IIci with a Daystar Turbo 030 (50MHz+68882) and a 8*24*GC (useless in A/UX since the Control Panel makes the A/UX Finder panic), running 3.1. That IIci also boots MacMiNT and System 7.1. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God will pardon me. It's His business. -- Heinrich Heine ------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 08:18:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:18:43 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >Because the web is shit for just about everything? That would explain its unpopularity, of course. - John From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 08:28:16 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:28:16 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> Message-ID: > >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > That would explain its unpopularity, of course. If it's popular, it *must* be right. -dhbarr. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 08:30:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:30:04 +0000 Subject: Going Way OT; Re: 8-bit low profile ethernet card? In-Reply-To: <422C5F75.70607@mdrconsult.com> References: <20050307031329.GV2685@dbz.icequake.net> <1110192112.25439.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <422C5F75.70607@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1110205804.25439.99.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:04 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > (I'm finally sick of hard drive noise on this 'ere desktop too, so a > > diskless client in an old xterminal box is on the cards as soon as I > > trip over a suitable motherboard that doesn't have monster heat > > dissipation requirements... going to have some interesting space issues > > with that one I expect) > > Those VIA mini-ITX boards (600-1000MHz Eden proc) make pretty good > X-Terminals. If you get a mini-case with wall-wart instead of internal > PSU, you can run completely solid-state. Onboard graphics are decent, > probably better than the old xterminal had, or they have a PCI slot if > you want high-end video. Ahh, it's my usual approach to these home projects though - wait until someone throws out the necessary parts, then do it on zero budget ;) I've got a spare NCD 88k xterm that'd make a lovely shell (spray it black for that NeXT-a-like look, find a black Dell or IBM keyboard and mouse). Hardly any height to the case, but it has a reasonable footprint and the PSU should be able to handle a modern PC board. I've got a spare PCI graphics board that'll do 1152x874 at 24bit, which is good enough (I've never seen a right-angled AGP bracket, but I do have a surplus PCI one). I don't play graphics-intensive games, thankfully. I just need to locate a suitable board where the CPU doesn't chuck out masses of heat. I'm not sure what sort of speed CPU would be suitable - probably as low as 200MHz would be fine (in PC terms) as all the number- crunching's done server-side anyway. I do need 44KHz stereo audio though, so I need to look into how that's done these days on a diskless client. (I'm glad the subject says OT already :-) Of course, I'd rather have a NeXT cube on my desk... cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 08:32:55 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:32:55 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> At 08:28 AM 3/7/2005, David H. Barr wrote: >> >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >> >Because the web is shit for just about everything? >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > >If it's popular, it *must* be right. Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best design and solution for this task? - John From cb at mythtech.net Mon Mar 7 08:43:33 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:43:33 -0500 Subject: picking locks Message-ID: >I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a >tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup >for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) By Tubular key, do you mean the round style often found on vending machines? The locksmith near me cuts them. I've had him duplicate the key for my soda machine at work. -chris From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 7 08:44:36 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:44:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> from John Foust at "Mar 7, 5 08:32:55 am" Message-ID: <200503071444.GAA15842@floodgap.com> > > > > > Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > > > > Because the web is sh*t for just about everything? > > > That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > If it's popular, it *must* be right. > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > design and solution for this task? Any advantage it might yield over the vagaries of SMTP has little to do with its perceived ease of use or accessibility. I'm forced to use web boards for some esoteric topics, but I get enough vintage computing on Usenet and other mailing lists, so I wouldn't make the jump. I don't like pull media. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI! ---------------------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 08:51:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:51:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 08:28 AM 3/7/2005, David H. Barr wrote: > >> >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > >> >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > > >If it's popular, it *must* be right. > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > design and solution for this task? I prefer the flow and linearity of a mailing list. I like to consume everything and discard what I don't care for. With a web forum, it's more difficult to keep track of new messages being posted. And with the incredible level of topic drift here, it's not entirely evident what's being discussed in any particular thread based on the title. You might miss something you would be interested in or be helpful with. Find a web forum that acts like a mailing list and I'll buy in ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 08:54:28 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 06:54:28 -0800 Subject: picking locks References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130><42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu><20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net><16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1110191259.25439.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" > I've found that it's ridiculously cheap over here to get a flat key made > if you just take the lock in to the right people; no need to have the > original key or even any kind of lock number. > > I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a > tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup > for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) I must have lucked out. I had no trouble getting my DEC tubular keys duplicated at the local place (which is pretty big, as it happens). I thought everyone used BIC pens as the backup for those steering wheel locks :-). Vince From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:08:05 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:08:05 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: > >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > > >If it's popular, it *must* be right. > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > design and solution for this task? Consider this: if some portion of an *sql backed board of some variety goes up in a puff of magic smoke, that knowledge can be lost forever. If several copies of a particular thread exist, there is at least the possibility of future retrieval. In fact, we've seen just such a scenario recently with the archive rebuild. Several members indicated that they had partial or complete coverage and were willing to make them available for recovery. Assuming the purpose of these lists is to disseminate and maintain knowledge related to classic computing before it disappears forever, which of the alternatives better serves to meet said goal? -dhbarr. From willisjo at zianet.com Mon Mar 7 09:08:47 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:08:47 -0700 Subject: VMS startup problem? Message-ID: Hello, Having a bit of a problem starting VMS 5.1. It seems that it begins execution of the startup procedure, but then it hangs. I'm wondering if there's a way to bypass the startup procedures so I can find out what's wrong. Here's the messages I get: KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests. 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed. Loading system software. 2..1..0.. VAX/VMS Version V5.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 .. $! Copyright (c) 1988 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. The VAX/VMS system is now executing the system startup procedure. %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 7-MAR-2005 08:07:07.89 %%%%%%%%%%% Logfile has been initialized by operator _OPA0: Logfile is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;769 %LICENSE-I-LOADED, DEC FORTRAN was successfully loaded with 50 units And then nothing. Almost looks like a system ready to be logged into, yet pressing Enter does nothing. I know the terminal emulator works because I am able to halt the system and type commands successfully at the >>> prompt. Thanks in advance! John From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:11:16 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:11:16 -0600 Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > > design and solution for this task? > Find a web forum that acts like a mailing list and I'll buy in ;) On that note, I -believe- there exists a plugin of some sort for phpbb2 that allows the board to follow a mailing list and mirror the conversations in a threaded form. I'm not sure about the details, but I know a few of my usenet and redhat mailman posts have ended up in their entirety on SEO link farms. It would be a one-way link, though. -dhbarr. From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 09:21:43 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:21:43 -0800 Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > > design and solution for this task? > > I prefer the flow and linearity of a mailing list. I like to consume > everything and discard what I don't care for. With a web forum, it's more > difficult to keep track of new messages being posted. And with the > incredible level of topic drift here, it's not entirely evident what's > being discussed in any particular thread based on the title. You might > miss something you would be interested in or be helpful with. What Sellam said! > Find a web forum that acts like a mailing list and I'll buy in ;) Another thing I like about the list: I read mail locally (as opposed to a drain-bamaged web interface). As a side effect, my mail folders contain an edited local "mirror" of the cctalk and cctech lists. Which comes in mighty handy when I need to find something, even if my ISP or the list is out-to-lunch at the moment. Also, if I wanted a web interface, couldn't I just go to the archives (and post through a web email interface)? Vince From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 08:58:05 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:58:05 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <200503071444.GAA15842@floodgap.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <200503071444.GAA15842@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307085550.0465f8c0@mail> At 08:44 AM 3/7/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Any advantage it might yield over the vagaries of SMTP has little to do with >its perceived ease of use or accessibility. I'm forced to use web boards for >some esoteric topics, but I get enough vintage computing on Usenet and other >mailing lists, so I wouldn't make the jump. I don't like pull media. (Scratching head: Web forums not easy to use or accessible? Classic computing not esoteric? Mail reading (as opposed to delivery) is push, not pull?) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 09:23:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:23:29 -0600 Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> At 08:51 AM 3/7/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I prefer the flow and linearity of a mailing list. I like to consume >everything and discard what I don't care for. With a web forum, it's more >difficult to keep track of new messages being posted. And with the >incredible level of topic drift here, it's not entirely evident what's >being discussed in any particular thread based on the title. You might >miss something you would be interested in or be helpful with. Ah, good - some reasonable discussion on the notion, as opposed to just saying "poopie". I agree with what you say about the pleasure of accidental discovery. With a mailing list with wandering topics, where you're "forced" to read most messages, you learn things you didn't know. On the other hand, I don't think that would be impossible on a web forum. Just have one forum and read all the postings. And I agree that forums have a different "feel" than mailing lists. Mailing lists are more "classic". Many of us may have decades of experience with them, and only a few years of comparable experience with web forums. But it would also be cool to have machine- and topic- specific forums. >Find a web forum that acts like a mailing list and I'll buy in ;) http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ seems to be down temporarily, and does it only update every 24 hours? Has no one invented a web forum / mailing list hybrid, where web postings are echoed to the mailing list, and vice versa, and it updates in real-time or something close to it? If some large percentage of subscribers switched to this web version, it would certainly lessen the load on the SMTP-based list. - John From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 7 09:26:50 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:26:50 -0500 Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) Message-ID: <20050307152649.VYTE25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the >recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best >design and solution for this task? I prefer the mailing list for several reasons: 1- I am on dial-up. I can just "let it download", and then come back to read the messages as quickly as I like - web based clients are SLOW on dial-up, and you have to be there to click on every item you want to read, so you have to wait for it. This by itself would probably be a show stopper for me. 2- The list comes as nice plain text. If I want to save something, I simply save it - Saving text from the web is usually (not always, but usually) much more a pain in the butt. 3- Many sites nowadays use "extensions" and other goodies (and I use the term loosly) which make them unreadable on my anicent browser... It's fine to say "you just have to upgrade your browser", however there ARE no newer browsers for the particular platform that I use - If staying connected to this list means that I have to change to a "modern" OS, then I would simply wave goodbye and bow out. I expect there are a few others who would do the same... 4- Another point relating to #3 - this system I am using does not EVER download a "plug in" or applet and run it - attachments that I do accept NEVER automatically launch themselves (and if they did, they wouldn't know how to run here) ... so this machine has no "anti virus" software, doesn't need it, and never gets "infected" (because it never auto-runs anything). I have no doubt that a web based interface would have all kinds of neat-cool java applets, plug-ins and other things which compromise security - Even though the "list" site might be safe, forcing people to turn these things on will cause trouble for those of us who choose to avoid them. 5- The mailing list has an element of privacy - Since you have to both know about it and manually subscribe to it, there's a good chance that by the time someone shows up here they really are more than casually interested in classic computers. Once we get links from non-classic sites (hey, here's a place where I've seen XP installs discussed), and indexed by the search engines, you can bet that non-topic material will rise. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 09:25:44 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:25:44 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> At 09:08 AM 3/7/2005, David H. Barr wrote: >Assuming the purpose of these lists is to disseminate and maintain >knowledge related to classic computing before it disappears forever, >which of the alternatives better serves to meet said goal? Point taken, but that's an issue of backup. There are lots of ways to skin that cat. Export to ASCII if you like, and send a backup copy of every message to another server. Via email if you like. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 7 09:34:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307085550.0465f8c0@mail> from John Foust at "Mar 7, 5 08:58:05 am" Message-ID: <200503071534.HAA15622@floodgap.com> > >Any advantage it might yield over the vagaries of SMTP has little to do with > >its perceived ease of use or accessibility. I'm forced to use web boards for > >some esoteric topics, but I get enough vintage computing on Usenet and other > >mailing lists, so I wouldn't make the jump. I don't like pull media. > > (Scratching head: Web forums not easy to use or accessible? Yes. I have to learn a whole new interface for each particular board package. Mailing list, I just use Elm like I always do. > Classic computing not esoteric? Increasingly not. Lots of retro dabblers these days. > Mail reading (as opposed to delivery) is push, not pull?) Well, in a highly pedantic sense, yes, just about any content delivery method is ultimately pull because you have to sit there and read it. But I don't have to go to multiple web boards and check for new postings; I just check my E-mail. It doesn't disturb my daily routine by making me do more tasks, and I get the content I want because the messages are already there waiting for me. Some will argue that the boards that send out notification of new topics by E-mail fix this problem, but then what you've got is ... a mailing list. And you still have to check the board to see the whole thread. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ACTUAL CLASSIFIED AD: Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. $100 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 09:40:12 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:40:12 -0800 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> Message-ID: <64ebdbe84cb2d2c161767850dfebbb33@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 7, 2005, at 5:38 AM, John Foust wrote: > Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list > as opposed to the web? > > - John > > A wiki was setup some time ago, it's currently withering on the vine.. http://www.flummux.org/cgi-bin/ccwiki.pl?ClassicComputerWiki There have been no updates since 5-mar-2004. There is a place for you do describe yourself, Places for machines where the lore that we all keep can be stored and enjoyed. From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:45:01 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:45:01 +0000 Subject: VMS startup problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64050307074543b712fc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:08:47 -0700, John Willis wrote: > Hello, > > Having a bit of a problem starting VMS 5.1. It seems that it begins > execution of the startup procedure, but then it hangs. I'm wondering > if there's a way to bypass the startup procedures so I can find out > what's wrong. Here's the messages I get: > > KA630-A.V1.3 > > Performing normal system tests. > > 7..6..5..4..3.. > > Tests completed. > > Loading system software. > > 2..1..0.. > > VAX/VMS Version V5.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 > .. > $! Copyright (c) 1988 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. > > The VAX/VMS system is now executing the system startup procedure. > > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 7-MAR-2005 08:07:07.89 %%%%%%%%%%% > Logfile has been initialized by operator _OPA0: > Logfile is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;769 > > %LICENSE-I-LOADED, DEC FORTRAN was successfully loaded with 50 units > > And then nothing. Almost looks like a system ready to be logged into, > yet pressing Enter does nothing. I know the terminal emulator works > because I am able to halt the system and type commands successfully > at the >>> prompt. > > Thanks in advance! > John > > Try this : >>>b/1 SYSBOOT> USE DEFAULT SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN" SYSBOOT> CONTINUE Should get you to a login prompt, look at sys$startup:systartup_vms.com to see what is hanging on. Dan From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:45:37 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:45:37 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> Message-ID: > >Assuming the purpose of these lists is to disseminate and maintain > >knowledge related to classic computing before it disappears forever, > >which of the alternatives better serves to meet said goal? > Point taken, but that's an issue of backup. There are lots of > ways to skin that cat. Export to ASCII if you like, and send > a backup copy of every message to another server. Via email if > you like. Or, conversely, some interested party could take the time and effort to develop a web interface to the pre-existing setup. Either way it's a question of who bears the time cost of altering what we now have. I lean toward the one that doesn't ask Jay to contribute more than he already has. -dhbarr. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Mar 7 09:46:46 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:46:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> Message-ID: <38761.127.0.0.1.1110210406.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> > Talk about the inevitability of using modern tools to support > our habit of old computers. There are those that would fight the inevitable forever if able. The Amish still use horse and buggy, don't they? > A few more Slashdottings on interesting topics and this list > could expand. Even without that I think the hobby is growing substantially. We don't need some sudden influx when the steady growth may well do the same thing. > Yes, a web forum would be Different and All, but at least it > throws away all this haggling about list traffic and MX debugging. > A little LAMP server, a little postNuke, we could be up in minutes. "We" already are. There are several vintage computer discussion boards out there including my own. > Yes, I know it would require a modern web browser. Is this the > Civil War re-enactor list? Are my buttons and hardtack not > authentic enough? Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list > as opposed to the web? The luddites are coming, the luddites are coming! :) I've heard the same arguments from list aficionados as from newsgroup hounds about why web forums suck. The bottom line, though, is that "Change is BAD!" (tm) -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 09:47:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:47:45 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> Message-ID: <1110210465.25455.131.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 08:18 -0600, John Foust wrote: > At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: > >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > > That would explain its unpopularity, of course. OK, so I have a bad cold and don't have the cranial skills today to formulate a convincing argument. But that sentence would nicely sum up my argument if I had ;-) cheers J. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 7 09:49:25 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:49:25 -0500 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: <200503071049.25469.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 March 2005 09:32, John Foust wrote: > At 08:28 AM 3/7/2005, David H. Barr wrote: > >> >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to > >> >> the web? > >> > > >> >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > >> > >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > > >If it's popular, it *must* be right. > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > design and solution for this task? YES. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 7 09:49:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:49:36 -0800 Subject: Needed: LK401 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <200503061613240174.20E61122@192.168.42.129> References: <200503061613240174.20E61122@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: At 4:13 PM -0800 3/6/05, Bruce Lane wrote: > I got rid of the keyboard for my VT420 terminal by mistake. >Does anyone happen to have a spare LK401 that they'd be willing to >part with? FYI, a LK201 works just fine. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:59:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:59:35 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope (was Re: The ettiquette of Windows XP on a centerpunch) In-Reply-To: <1110192504.25439.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050305105317.I648@localhost> <20050306172832.0f9f5154.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050306165015.05044298@mail> <1110192504.25439.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:48:24 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-06 at 20:06 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Unfortunately, there has been this trend lately for multi-channel > > digital O-scopes to be Windows-based. > > To me that implies that the company behind such beasts have no clue what > they're doing, given that alternatives exist that are far more robust > and don't have licensing requirements that push the cost up. This was an HP scope. Interpretation of the above left to the reader. > Presumably such machines boot from hard disk too? (I've never seen any > flavour of Windows boot from ROM). Yep. That was why we had to rebuild it... HD crash (from running it at 650 millibars for years - the South Pole is tough on hard drives). -ethan From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Mar 7 10:02:01 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: Free SS1000 for Boston-area pickup, needs new fan/sensor Message-ID: <200503071602.j27G21BZ021336@gate.crash.com> Free to a good home: Sun SPARCserver 1000 (not E) with one disk tray and one processor board. Includes two SM51 50MHz SuperSPARC CPUs I believe, 96MB of RAM (one bad DIMM in last bank), and 4 x 500MB SCA drives in "spud" brackets in the disk tray. PROM monitor reports a fan failure, though there are several working - might just be the sensor or cable, but Solaris 7 wouldn't load as long as this failure is being sensed. Chassis/case itself is in decent shape, some sticker residue, and it's heavy. I'll consider delivering it if you're 15 minutes away from Arlington, MA, but otherwise you'll need to pick this thing up or pay for the UPS Store to pack it - I'm not packing it for shipping. And of course you'd then have to pay shipping... First come, first serve... Thanks for the bandwidth, --Steve. smj (a) crash (d) com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 10:08:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:08:04 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> Message-ID: <1110211684.25439.142.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 09:45 -0600, David H. Barr wrote: > > >Assuming the purpose of these lists is to disseminate and maintain > > >knowledge related to classic computing before it disappears forever, > > >which of the alternatives better serves to meet said goal? > > > Point taken, but that's an issue of backup. There are lots of > > ways to skin that cat. Export to ASCII if you like, and send > > a backup copy of every message to another server. Via email if > > you like. > > Or, conversely, some interested party could take the time and effort > to develop a web interface to the pre-existing setup. Either way it's > a question of who bears the time cost of altering what we now have. I > lean toward the one that doesn't ask Jay to contribute more than he > already has. There are lots of obvious arguments *against* a web forum. I'm curious to know what the supposed benefits are? IMHO a mailing list wins out over a web forum any day, as does a usenet group. The usual argument against mailing lists or usenet (typically) is the sharing of images or other binary data, but it's not exactly hard to stick the data on a temporary website somewhere and post a link to it. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 10:08:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:08:39 -0500 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes on classic hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:39:28 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Wasn't it you who posted a link to the install tape image online? > > At any rate, it's available and online, if you want to try installing it. I have seen the link... and I know I tried to get the images; I'm just not sure I got everything and I'm not sure where I put things... :-) But I know they are there; I just need lots more time in the day to get down to that level in the project pile. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 7 10:29:18 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:29:18 -0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS startup problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33999.135.196.108.27.1110212958.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Hello, > > Having a bit of a problem starting VMS 5.1. It seems that it begins > execution of the startup procedure, but then it hangs. I'm wondering > if there's a way to bypass the startup procedures so I can find out > what's wrong. Here's the messages I get: In addition to what Dan said if you're feeling masochistic set STARTUP_P2 to "TRUE" before you CONTINUE - everything that startup.com does will be dumped to the screen so you can see exactly what's going on..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 10:33:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > But it would also be cool to have machine- and topic- specific forums. This I agree with whole-heartedly, but it would rely on the discipline of the posters (and as we should know from experience, this is no good ;) > >Find a web forum that acts like a mailing list and I'll buy in ;) > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ seems to be down > temporarily, and does it only update every 24 hours? > > Has no one invented a web forum / mailing list hybrid, where web > postings are echoed to the mailing list, and vice versa, and it > updates in real-time or something close to it? If some large > percentage of subscribers switched to this web version, it would > certainly lessen the load on the SMTP-based list. I have been considering just such a system for years now: a web interface to the CC list where folks could view messages from a browser and post messages to the list from the web version (with a tag added to identify where the messages were posted from). One of these days I'll get around to it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 7 10:42:35 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:42:35 -0500 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) References: Message-ID: <0b8101c52334$b39ab7e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:39:28 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival > wrote: > > Wasn't it you who posted a link to the install tape image online? > > > > At any rate, it's available and online, if you want to try installing it. > > I have seen the link... and I know I tried to get the images; I'm just > not sure I got everything and I'm not sure where I put things... :-) > > But I know they are there; I just need lots more time in the day to > get down to that level in the project pile. > > -ethan I posted this link http://www.mmhart.com/amix_download.htm#Downloads Back in Sept 2004, its dead now. I hope you grabbed all the files back then since it had the manuals and disk/tape images. From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 7 10:44:41 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:44:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050307083837.M648@localhost> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > "low-level" hardware and has usually been very snappy. Take a look at the > original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a 33 MHz 68040 and it was very > responsive. I have an old AT&T box that runs AT&T Unix and I know it can't > be faster than 30 MHz, and yet it runs Oracle! I'm still impressed by a million ops/second. Imagine! One million! I feel like one of those jungle tribe people who count "one, two, three... many". Most of the TTL computers are more-or-less one million -- the mini era. It's like 100 KHz for tubes, there were plenty faster but straightforward design ignoring transmission line issues seems to be these two numbers. They always seem crisp with a 9600 bits/sec console :-) More seriously, most people grossly overrate the importance of CPU speed within some reasonably local framework. We've got students at UCI doing 3D image rendering, OK, CPU matters there (especially with bloatware), but for general purpose computing the CPU is usually waiting for you to type something. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 7 10:44:55 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:44:55 -0500 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> Message-ID: <200503071144.57209.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Monday 07 March 2005 10:45, David H. Barr wrote: > > >Assuming the purpose of these lists is to disseminate and maintain > > >knowledge related to classic computing before it disappears forever, > > >which of the alternatives better serves to meet said goal? > > > > Point taken, but that's an issue of backup. There are lots of > > ways to skin that cat. Export to ASCII if you like, and send > > a backup copy of every message to another server. Via email if > > you like. > > Or, conversely, some interested party could take the time and effort > to develop a web interface to the pre-existing setup. Either way it's > a question of who bears the time cost of altering what we now have. I > lean toward the one that doesn't ask Jay to contribute more than he > already has. Mailman has a web interface. Its not so good if you're on dialup or a slow connection, but you can stay upto date from Internet cafes. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 10:50:27 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:50:27 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: <20050307083837.M648@localhost> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <20050307083837.M648@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:44:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings wrote: > but for general purpose computing the CPU is usually waiting for you to type something. I get asked all the time how to speed up computers. My stock answer is that if you want your computer to go twice as fast, type twice as fast. :-) -ethan From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 10:57:27 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:57:27 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <200503071144.57209.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307092406.0525a3e0@mail> <200503071144.57209.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > Mailman has a web interface. Its not so good if you're on dialup or a slow > connection, but you can stay upto date from Internet cafes. I suppose I meant an -interactive- web interface, instead of a read-only one. -dhbarr. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 10:56:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC Message-ID: So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors (cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me "Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. Any ideas? The drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Very little information online, but it seems to support DSDD. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 7 11:00:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050306185255.G648@localhost> <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050307085008.W648@localhost> > Tom wrote: >> The exploit is based upon the fact that the destination host >> rejects unknown users; MX backups, not having that information, >> generally accept *@domain, so the spammer hack is to find the >> n>0th MX host, and queue it all up there. SPreads the load. On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't see how it "spreads the load" or how the spammer benefits > in any way. The spammer wants to get the spam to as many valid > email addresses as possible, but sending to the backup MX doesn't > get it to more valid email addresses, and it doesn't reduce the > load on the spammer's sending machine. I believe spammers get paid to deliver N messages, where N is as large as possible. The accuracy of spam email lists is probably low; I doubt the deliverers are in the business of vetting quality and it would take too long. Getting a connection open and the mail sent and themselves paid is the short-term goal. With one connection to an MX>1, they can deliver *@domain mail to that MX host then drop the connection. That MX host will then bang at the MX=1 host on it's own dime, and the spammer is off to the next. It's the open-waits that eat the time, once you're in it's just data transfer. Dequeueing is the goal, not accuracy. My experience in this area is limited to managing systems all around a company that did mass-mailing to anyone who had visited their site (and provided email) via one of those default-clicked "SEND ME MAIL!" things. Ethically light/medium gray to me, but they at least did enter their email address somewhere... I didn't run the mailers, but did networking and security (like a lot of older sysadmins I'm "security expert" only by default; 1000% better than what they had... open mail relays, company name as border router password, CEO desktop back doors...) By the time I left it was pushing a few hundred-K email per batch. 1999. From kth at srv.net Mon Mar 7 10:32:30 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:32:30 -0700 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <20050304202413.Y648@localhost> References: <004301c52129$c50a75e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20050304202413.Y648@localhost> Message-ID: <422C821E.9050109@srv.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > > So if you disassembled 8080 binary, mechanically translated the > resulting source to 8086, that would preserve the easter egg. > (Man would that be one ugly program.) > > It seems entirely likely that Kildall's hack (algorithmically > obscured text within the code somewhere) would only be preserved > by some sort of mechanical translation. It's doubtful an honest > re-write even with listings side by side would result in it being > preserved. > > There are few enough CP/M binaries that the sources of which could > contain such things. CCP did not become COMMAND.COM, that is > clear, it's totally different. > I've always heard that it was in PIP, using some lame type of encoding (an xor?). From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 7 11:15:36 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:15:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> Message-ID: <20050307090840.R648@localhost> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: >>> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >> Because the web is shit for just about everything? > > That would explain its unpopularity, of course. I agree, it'll never catch on. Mail is superior to web in at least one instance: it's close as we get to "abstract data" and can be rendered in truly different ways. It's really low BW. Well except for the spam, attachments, dead smtp ports, ... ALso, I fetchmail all my mail from the server, and read/reply at my leisure. Plus, human culture is the reason we take part, not machine efficiency; but I recognize we're close to the point where it may fall on us and kill us if we continue to ignore it. But what if it were links/lynx compatible? That fits on 24x80. Yes, yes, I know not everyone has 24x80 with a green phosphor. From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 7 11:34:28 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:34:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <64ebdbe84cb2d2c161767850dfebbb33@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Mar 07, 2005 07:40:12 AM Message-ID: <20050307173428.060FD7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Ron Hudson once stated: > > On Mar 7, 2005, at 5:38 AM, John Foust wrote: > > Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list > > as opposed to the web? > > A wiki was setup some time ago, it's currently withering on the vine.. > > http://www.flummux.org/cgi-bin/ccwiki.pl?ClassicComputerWiki > > There have been no updates since 5-mar-2004. Wow! It's been up for a *year* now? Geeze time flies ... > There is a place for you do describe yourself, Places for machines > where the > lore that we all keep can be stored and enjoyed. That site is backed up nightly (I should know---I setup the Wiki in question, and the backup job) so it going away isn't a problem. -spc (wow ... a year ... ) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 11:36:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:36:44 +0000 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <20050307090840.R648@localhost> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <20050307090840.R648@localhost> Message-ID: <1110217004.25439.177.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 09:15 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > Yes, yes, I know not everyone has 24x80 with a green phosphor. And what do you have against amber screens? :-) And isn't it 80x24 anyway? Or do you turn all your terminals on their sides? ;) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 11:37:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:37:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who invented DOS? Message-ID: <200503071737.JAA21028@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" ---snip--- >It seems entirely likely that Kildall's hack (algorithmically >obscured text within the code somewhere) would only be preserved >by some sort of mechanical translation. It's doubtful an honest >re-write even with listings side by side would result in it being >preserved. > ---snip--- Hi One can hide encoded messages by different order of optional code sequences. There are many of these optional sequnces in 8080 code. I'm not sure how useful this would be in 8086 translation. He may have reverse translated it back to 8080 to show the hidden sequences. Dwight From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Mar 7 11:38:13 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> Message-ID: <52018.127.0.0.1.1110217093.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> On Mon, March 7, 2005 8:33 am, Vintage Computer Festival said: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> But it would also be cool to have machine- and topic- specific forums. > > This I agree with whole-heartedly, but it would rely on the discipline of > the posters (and as we should know from experience, this is no good ;) That's what moderators are for. . . I currently moderate the VC Forum solo, but I can add any number of other folks to the list, if need be. That's hardly a valid argument against web forums but it does reinforce one of the most distinct advantages of those forums. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 7 11:52:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> Message-ID: <200503071811.NAA13107@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Yes, I know it would require a modern web browser. Is this the Civil > War re-enactor list? Are my buttons and hardtack not authentic > enough? Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to > the web? Speaking entirely personally - because it's better. (A) It doesn't require me to go check it; the mail shows up in my mailbox along with all my other mail, rather than making me go check N different web fora, N being the number of such lists I am on. (B) The interface is uniform across them all, and is chosen by *me*, by my choice of MUA, not chosen according to someone else's idea of what looks good or works well, and different for each forum. (C) And if it truly does "require a modern web browser" (meaning some GUI horror instead of something like lynx), there are additional problems. (C.i) It requires mouse use, rather than being purely keyboard driven. (C.ii) It generally cannot be gotten out of reverse video (looking at reverse video for any significant time is quite uncomfortable for me, since I use a self-luminant display technology) and if it can it usually breaks the inteface design badly. (C.iii) They're big and bloated (lynx, source alone, is nearly twice as big as my whole MUA including compiled binaries, and I don't even want to think about a "modern" web browser). (C.iv) "requires a modenr web browser" usually means "requires gaping security holes like ActiveX or JavaScript", which are totally unacceptable. (C.v) Web browser text input fields are _not_ an acceptable substitute for a real text editor - especially not *my choice of* text editor (this harks back to point (B)). There are probably others, but any one of those is reason enough to me. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 12:26:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks (OT) Message-ID: <200503071826.KAA21049@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" -- > >Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. > >My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't operate >unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all >(well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). > Hi How many times do you think a person drives there car into the water and then remembers to turn the ignition off? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 12:30:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:30:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks Message-ID: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ron Hudson" >> ---snip--- >> >An If you have electric windows like my Saturn ION, you will need to >break them. >The motors may or may not work after being submerged. > > Hi It has been shown that the windows will work for several minutes, even in salt water. You do have to remember to not turn the ignition off while trying to get out of the car. Dwight From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 7 12:33:58 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:33:58 +0100 Subject: Contacting Sebastian =?iso-8859-1?q?Br=FCckner?= Message-ID: <422C9E96.7030306@hachti.de> Hi, does anybody know the (up to date )e-mail address of the guy named Sebastian Br?ckner? Are you Sebastian Br?ckner? Please contact me. Regards, Philipp From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 7 12:36:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:36:46 -0500 Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <200503071826.KAA21049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:26 AM 3/7/05 -0800, you wrote: >>From: "vrs" >-- >> >>Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. >> >>My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't operate >>unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all >>(well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). >> > >Hi > How many times do you think a person >drives there car into the water and then >remembers to turn the ignition off? >Dwight > How many times do you think cars go into water and have the battery damaged or the electrical systems fail? Hint: here in Florida they pull BODIES out of underwater cars just about everyday. AND as someone else pointed out, the windows on many cars do not open at all or don't open all the way. Futhermore if the driver has disabled the power window controls then three out of four or even four out of four windows are disabled until he remembers to unlock them. I don't carry a center punch but I should. Joe From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 7 12:43:23 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:43:23 -0600 Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC References: Message-ID: <00cb01c52345$90a3d9e0$2992d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:56 AM > So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to > read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors > (cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me > "Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. > > I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. > > Any ideas? > > The drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Very little information online, but it > seems to support DSDD. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] What are you using: What version of DOS? What version of 22disk? What disk format? Have you tested 22disk as I mentioned in past post? Randy From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Mar 7 12:49:17 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:49:17 +0100 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <20050307204027.6E6BC39423@linux.local> Hi, On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:00:30 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: : > >Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an >Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. : do you know anything about a Z-8001 card, that should have been available for the M24 ? Does this one really exist ? Ciao Bernd From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 7 12:56:41 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:56:41 -0500 Subject: picking locks (OT) References: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "Dwight K. Elvey" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:36 PM Subject: Re: picking locks (OT) > At 10:26 AM 3/7/05 -0800, you wrote: > >>From: "vrs" > >-- > >> > >>Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. > >> > >>My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't operate > >>unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all > >>(well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). > >> > > > >Hi > > How many times do you think a person > >drives there car into the water and then > >remembers to turn the ignition off? > >Dwight > > > > How many times do you think cars go into water and have the battery > damaged or the electrical systems fail? Hint: here in Florida they pull > BODIES out of underwater cars just about everyday. AND as someone else > pointed out, the windows on many cars do not open at all or don't open all > the way. Futhermore if the driver has disabled the power window controls > then three out of four or even four out of four windows are disabled until > he remembers to unlock them. I don't carry a center punch but I should. > > Joe > How many supersized Americans can fit through a fully opened car window these days? From brain at jbrain.com Mon Mar 7 12:56:59 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:56:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Tom's Replica Book Reviewd by Slashdot In-Reply-To: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <36663.162.123.17.81.1110221819.squirrel@dilbert.jimbrain.com> http://books.slashdot.org/books/05/03/03/0429213.shtml?tid=222&tid=6&tid=3 Hint: They weren't terribly kind. Some of the reviewer's issues seemed overblown, but other stuff seemed spot on. I'll let folks read before I ask my questions, though. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com From ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se Mon Mar 7 13:07:05 2005 From: ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se (Ulf Andersson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:07:05 +0100 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <10502150826.ZM26778@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Hello Gents & Ladies, anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of UNIBUS and Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. Thank you for your time and efforts. /Ulf Andersson Classic Computing Wannabe :) Contemporary Computing Is ;) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 13:17:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:17:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503071917.LAA21098@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Wai-Sun Chia" >Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 10:36 PM >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 21:09:01 -0500, Dave Dunfield >> wrote: >>> All the discussion on stacking two PC supplies and cutting >>> grounds to try and keep them isolated seems like asking >>> for trouble.... >> >> Asking for trouble is correct. >> After all, to get 24V and I don't think a typical 8" drive will >> surpass 1A anyway, a LM317 plus a couple of passives and a small >> transformer is more than enough to do the job. If you get the LM317K, >> then it'll even do up till 1.5A provided you give it an >> appropriately-sized heatsink. >> >> /wai-sun > > >SA800's require 1.7A on the 24v line. > >Randy > Hi Randy is right. They used the 24V line for the stepper. The 12V line was used for the analog electronics. Still, as I recall, the 24V didn't need exact regulation. I'd have to check my schematics for the drives. Dwight > > From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 7 13:09:51 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:09:51 -0500 Subject: Big list of floppy disk formats? Message-ID: <01C52320.14557E40@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> From: Jules Richardson Subject: Big list of floppy disk formats? Does such a thing exist? It'd be nice to have an online resource of all the different floppy disk formats used by different machines. Yes, that's one huge list, and would likely never be complete - but as I haven't come across an attempt at all so far, it'd be better than hunting around for the data when needed. I'd be happy to collate stuff if it's thought to be a good idea - I could make it available online too (although maybe one of the recognised repositories such as bitsavers would bea better place) Data can be fed into the futurekeep project as and when necessary, as it's something that'll be needed there too one day. thoughts? J. ---------------------------------------- You probably already know this, but 22disk's cpmdisks.def has a lengthy list of at least CP/M format details; good starting point. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 7 13:21:00 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:21:00 +0100 Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC References: Message-ID: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to > read 8" CP/M disks. CP/M disks are a funny bunch. Some formats dont even have there sector numbers in sequence; others have track 0 on the center track, others have it in the middle, and some have a different number of segmens on different tracks. Nico From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 7 13:31:57 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:31:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503071933.OAA13700@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of UNIBUS and > Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. Well, if you can't find a spec, I can measure the qbus boards I have; I'm sure plenty of people could do likewise for unibus. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 7 13:34:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:34:03 -0500 Subject: picking locks and/or Got an extra VAX 4000? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:30:11 PST." <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200503071934.j27JY3WU005972@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >Hi > It has been shown that the windows will work for several >minutes, even in salt water. You do have to remember to >not turn the ignition off while trying to get out of the car. heh. reminds me of underwater egress training. remember to use the heel of that big knife to break the glass :-) oh yea, and notice which way the bubbles go - that's *up* :-) (damn. I'm sure I'm way over quota on off-topics now. humm...) Anyone near Boston got a spare VAX 4000 in a BA400 they don't need? -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 7 13:39:00 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:39:00 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:07:05 +0100." Message-ID: <200503071939.j27Jd0ku006682@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ulf Andersson" wrote: >Hello Gents & Ladies, > >anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of >UNIBUS and Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. I was just thinking about that this morning :-) Does anyone have a blueprint which shows the "spec" dimensions? I could use a micrometer but I thought it must be in a print somewhere. And, while I'm asking, anyone have thoughts on what will happen to QBUS or Unibus backplane connector if I put a card with fingers which are HASL finished (hot air solder layer) as opposed to gold? The idea is that a production board would have gold fingers but a prototype might just be "blown solder over copper", i.e. HASL. I'm just wondering if the solder will damage the backplane fingers. I realize that over time the solder will form channels and may stop working - I'm not worried about that for a prototype. -brad From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Mar 7 13:46:33 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:46:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Big list of floppy disk formats? In-Reply-To: <01C52320.14557E40@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> References: <01C52320.14557E40@H69.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, M H Stein wrote: > You probably already know this, but 22disk's cpmdisks.def has > a lengthy list of at least CP/M format details; good starting point. Montezuma Micro CP/M also supports a large list of diskette formats. I ran across a dump of the data file the other day. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 13:46:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:46:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks (OT) Message-ID: <200503071946.LAA21104@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Teo Zenios" > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >> > >> At 10:26 AM 3/7/05 -0800, you wrote: >> >>From: "vrs" >> >-- >> >> >> >>Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. >> >> >> >>My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't >operate >> >>unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all >> >>(well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). >> >> >> > >> >Hi >> > How many times do you think a person >> >drives there car into the water and then >> >remembers to turn the ignition off? >> >Dwight >> > >> >> How many times do you think cars go into water and have the battery >> damaged or the electrical systems fail? Hint: here in Florida they pull >> BODIES out of underwater cars just about everyday. AND as someone else >> pointed out, the windows on many cars do not open at all or don't open all >> the way. Futhermore if the driver has disabled the power window controls >> then three out of four or even four out of four windows are disabled until >> he remembers to unlock them. I don't carry a center punch but I should. >> >> Joe >> > >How many supersized Americans can fit through a fully opened car window >these days? > > Hi Once the car fills with water, the door will open with little effort ( unless damaged ). It is rare that the battery becomes in-operative. The switch to turn off the other windows is a good point, though. It might be a good idea to have cars automatically roll the windows down after a small delay when an airbag is fired. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 13:51:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Z-8001 board Was: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) Message-ID: <200503071951.LAA21108@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bernd Kopriva" > >Hi, > >On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:00:30 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >: >> >>Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an >>Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. >: >do you know anything about a Z-8001 card, that should have been available >for the M24 ? Does this one really exist ? > >Ciao Bernd > Hi The board did exist. It was there to support the software for the M20. It was suppose to be able to run the PCOS software. I wonder how low a level the CP/M-8000 got? It might be able to be run on the M24 as well, with the board. I've seen pictures of the board so I know they did make them. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 7 14:01:43 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:01:43 -0600 Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Nico de Jong" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:21 PM > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >> So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to >> read 8" CP/M disks. > CP/M disks are a funny bunch. Some formats dont even have there sector > numbers in sequence; others have track 0 on the center track, others have > it > in the middle, and some have a different number of segmens on different > tracks. > > Nico I have never heard of any CP/M system with track 0 anywhere but the beginning of the disk. CP/M allows for an affset to allow room for the boot tracks and is also commonly used to partition hard drives. An optimized CP/M system never accesses the sectors in a physical sequential method. 8" SSSD disks (3740 formatted) use a logical interleave of 6. This allows the system to read a sector process the data and read the next sector. If the sectors were read/written sequentially then you would have to wait for one complete revolution of the disk to accur first. Some CP/M systems logically interleave via a data table, other systems format the sector numbers non-sequentially to do the same thing. This is done to optimize speed without giving up too much valuable RAM. Randy From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Mar 7 14:02:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:02:44 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503071939.j27Jd0ku006682@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <16940.45924.300447.518039@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> "Ulf Andersson" wrote: >> Hello Gents & Ladies, >> >> anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of UNIBUS >> and Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. Brad> I was just thinking about that this morning :-) Brad> Does anyone have a blueprint which shows the "spec" dimensions? Quick look at Al Kossow's website... I would have thought the Bus Handbook would show that, but it doesn't contain a formal mechanical spec. It does show (on page 90 in Al's copy in dec/pdp11) show the overall dimensions of a M9202 Unibus Jumper module. That's a dual wide module and it seems to be full height. (At least the height matches that of the UDA50 shown in the UDA50 engineering drawings). What isn't shown, unfortunately, is the details of the edge connector. The UDA50 (hex module) is 8.41 by 15.688 inches board dimension. As for the Q-bus, those are dual or quad, not hex, but I think that the mechanical specs are identical to those of the Unibus. Ok, the RQDX3 board is 8.41 high by 5.187 inches wide, same within a few hundreds as the M9202, so that suggests the mechanicals are indeed the same. paul From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 14:05:59 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:05:59 -0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503071939.j27Jd0ku006682@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > "Ulf Andersson" wrote: > >Hello Gents & Ladies, > > > >anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of > >UNIBUS and Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. > > I was just thinking about that this morning :-) > > Does anyone have a blueprint which shows the "spec" dimensions? > > I could use a micrometer but I thought it must be in a print somewhere. I feel certain that this is in the logic handbooks. I have certainly done CAD drawings of smaller DEC replica boards from the dimensions there without problems. > And, while I'm asking, anyone have thoughts on what will happen to QBUS > or Unibus backplane connector if I put a card with fingers which are > HASL finished (hot air solder layer) as opposed to gold? > > The idea is that a production board would have gold fingers but a > prototype might just be "blown solder over copper", i.e. HASL. I'm just > wondering if the solder will damage the backplane fingers. I realize > that over time the solder will form channels and may stop working - I'm > not worried about that for a prototype. I think it will be fine. I have done this with boards without problems, though I haven't tried leaving them in there for 30 years or anything... Vince What do you know...I'm on topic :-). From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 14:13:57 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:13:57 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... Message-ID: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> Hey all! I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will feature a curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will be able to issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for mounting virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) Shown on the front panel will be a switch register, an Accumulator and the program counter (all 12 bit) a "running" light and a Overflow light. Insert = sw -> pc home = sim command Pgup = examine ([pc] -> sw delete = (deposit) sw ->[pc] end = halt pgdn = run Obviously a 12 bit computer suggests a PDP-8, but the function keys are going to be the "bit flip" front panel keys and they are grouped in three sets of four. I am not against a PDP-8 but it's instruction set is better expressed in octal right? Were there any other 12 bit computers? preferably with Hex friendly instruction sets? Operational choices - should examine increment PC?, should deposit? I am open to other meanings of the operation keys... they are arranged as above on my thinkpad. The program will be written in C. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 14:13:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:13:41 -0700 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: <20050307083837.M648@localhost> References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> <20050307083837.M648@localhost> Message-ID: <422CB5F5.2070403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > > I'm still impressed by a million ops/second. Imagine! One million! > I'm still working getting a homebrew computer with a million ops/sec. The problem is a REAL instruction requires TWO memory cycles at least so that is 500 ns memory cycle and normal ( read vintage parts since they don't make new I/O chips) I/O parts just meet that speed. > I feel like one of those jungle tribe people who count "one, two, > three... many". > Better than most sales-droids. :-) > Most of the TTL computers are more-or-less one million -- the mini > era. It's like 100 KHz for tubes, there were plenty faster but > straightforward design ignoring transmission line issues seems to > be these two numbers. How ever most TTL computers still used core memory so the split cycle was very matched for ISZ/DSZ type instructions. That requires a whole new cycle generaly since most modern memory does not suport read/modify/write cycles. The 2167 16kx1 does have data in so this may be a useful chip for modem memory in old computers. > They always seem crisp with a 9600 bits/sec console :-) > Gasp I hope to get 2400 baud. -:) > > More seriously, most people grossly overrate the importance of CPU > speed within some reasonably local framework. We've got students > at UCI doing 3D image rendering, OK, CPU matters there (especially > with bloatware), but for general purpose computing the CPU is > usually waiting for you to type something. Or read the stuff. Ben alias woodelf. From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Mar 7 14:24:01 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:24:01 +0100 Subject: Z-8001 board Was: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200503071951.LAA21108@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050307221511.DB67B39423@linux.local> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:51:36 -0800 (PST), Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> >>>Needless to say, if anyone has questions on an AT&T PC 6300 (or an >>>Olivetti M24, which is essentially the same thing), I'm your man. >>: >>do you know anything about a Z-8001 card, that should have been available >>for the M24 ? Does this one really exist ? >> >>Ciao Bernd >> > >Hi > The board did exist. It was there to support the software >for the M20. It was suppose to be able to run the PCOS software. >I wonder how low a level the CP/M-8000 got? It might >be able to be run on the M24 as well, with the board. > I've seen pictures of the board so I know they did make them. >Dwight > i found only some rare references on that board, but i found no ad or any offers, so i'm was not sure, if that was only vaporware ... ... was it only to be used on the M24, or a more general ISA board ? I'm asking, as i'm still looking for an ISA Z-8001 board like Steve Ciarcia's trumpcard or any other alternative ... Thanks Bernd From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 14:21:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:21:59 -0700 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > Hey all! > > I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will > feature a > curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will > be able to > issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for > mounting > virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) > > Shown on the front panel will be a switch register, an Accumulator and > the > program counter (all 12 bit) a "running" light and a Overflow light. > > Insert = sw -> pc home = sim command Pgup = examine > ([pc] -> sw > delete = (deposit) sw ->[pc] end = halt pgdn = run > > Obviously a 12 bit computer suggests a PDP-8, but the function keys > are going > to be the "bit flip" front panel keys and they are grouped in three > sets of > four. I am not against a PDP-8 but it's instruction set is better > expressed > in octal right? > > Were there any other 12 bit computers? preferably with Hex friendly > instruction sets? > I don't know about hex, but the other 12 bitters were the CDC 160 http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cdc160/ and the LINC/PDP 12 machines that I can think of for now. > Operational choices - should examine increment PC?, should deposit? > > I am open to other meanings of the operation keys... they are arranged > as above on > my thinkpad. > > The program will be written in C. Forget C ... program in HEX :) Ben alias woodelf From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 14:27:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307072059.050bfae8@mail> References: <0503050719.AA19180@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00ef01c521e1$00627d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <422A4CAC.2080100@mdrconsult.com> <32996.64.169.63.74.1110073991.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <20050306185255.G648@localhost> <34323.64.169.63.74.1110192445.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307072059.050bfae8@mail> Message-ID: <65192.64.139.41.130.1110227231.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > I don't see how it "spreads the load" or how the spammer benefits > in any way. The spammer wants to get the spam to as many valid > email addresses as possible, but sending to the backup MX doesn't > get it to more valid email addresses, and it doesn't reduce the > load on the spammer's sending machine. John wrote: > Were they talking about relaying and authenticating senders, or > about sending to a user at the MX[n] host? Talking about spamming software that ignores the MX precedence and sends to backup MX hosts even though the primary is online. I said that I wasn't sure if that was deliberate or just sloppy. I can't see any reason for it to be deliberate, unless it's intentionally malicious. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 14:32:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:32:42 GMT Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: "vrs" "Re: picking locks" (Mar 7, 6:54) References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1110191259.25439.2.camel@weka.localdomain> <041601c52326$fbe2c780$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <10503072032.ZM20750@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 6:54, vrs wrote: > From: "Jules Richardson" > > I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a > > tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup > > for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) > > I must have lucked out. I had no trouble getting my DEC tubular keys > duplicated at the local place (which is pretty big, as it happens). > > I thought everyone used BIC pens as the backup for those steering wheel > locks :-). Nah, that's for Kryptonite bike locks :-) http://www.engadget.com/entry/7796925370303347/ http://www.engadget.com/entry/8154041173872584/ for those who didn't know. Watch the video. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 14:33:05 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:33:05 -0800 Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> References: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: The solution is simple, fill every available void in the car with styrofoam so the thing floats. From sieler at allegro.com Mon Mar 7 14:38:14 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:38:14 -0800 Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard In-Reply-To: <42210ACE.6080702@srv.net> References: <20050225211558.7E5AC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <422C4B36.4807.14083A89@localhost> Hi, This guy: > From: "Milanowski, Don" is looking for a 09915-68000 keyboard (aka HP 98155A), probably as used with an HP 9915 computer. Photo of such a keyboard is at: http://www.decodesystems.com/hp98155a.html Can anyone help? thanks, Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 14:42:53 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:42:53 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6208342103e430fce35e9ff6dac11049@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:21 PM, woodelf wrote: > I don't know about hex, but the other 12 bitters were the CDC 160 > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cdc160/ and the LINC/PDP 12 machines > that I can think of for now. > I looked up the CDC and it looks very hex-ish. I might just do that. the LINC/PDP12 is just a PDP-8++ right? From aek at spies.com Mon Mar 7 14:47:33 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:47:33 -0800 Subject: ISO Integrated Solutions 4.3bsd binary distrib 4.0 or later Message-ID: I've slowly been working through the box of carts that came with the ISI system that I just picked up from Erik Klein, but there doesn't appear to be a complete binary distribution tape set in the pile. An image or physical cart of a version from '88 or later (4.x or 5.x) would be helpful in trying to get the system going again. Just to get it saved on line somewhere, the format of the cartridges is a little tricky in that ISI tape controllers simulate variable blocking on QIC cartridges by appending 512 bytes of data in front of the actual data blocks. The first few bytes are all that matter for example: A1FE 0001 0002 2800 0014 is a magic number, file number, block number, and block length (10240 bytes) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 14:45:32 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:45:32 GMT Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: minor list changes" (Mar 7, 8:58) References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <200503071444.GAA15842@floodgap.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307085550.0465f8c0@mail> Message-ID: <10503072045.ZM20784@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 8:58, John Foust wrote: > At 08:44 AM 3/7/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Any advantage it might yield over the vagaries of SMTP has little to do with > >its perceived ease of use or accessibility. I'm forced to use web boards for > >some esoteric topics, but I get enough vintage computing on Usenet and other > >mailing lists, so I wouldn't make the jump. I don't like pull media. > > (Scratching head: Web forums not easy to use or accessible? > Classic computing not esoteric? Mail reading (as opposed to > delivery) is push, not pull?) Web forums are not friendly to some browsers. They're also slow. Mail delivery is indeed push, not pull; by the time it gets to local delivery reading is just opening a local file, which is rather different than downloading a page on a server at the same time as umpteen other people. And it's a damned sight easier to search, sort and filter a mailbox (local, or IMAP) than a web page. I'm with Cameron, Sellam, and Jules. And probably a few other people who wouldn't want to use web technology because they have to be online at the time they are reading, all the time they're reading. Not friendly to dialup users. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 14:53:09 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:53:09 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9d44cad93515212d4a787925fe90b8f1@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:21 PM, woodelf wrote: Hmmm. Looking at some of the other classes of instructions, two groups divide the instruction word into two six bit fields. Oh well, there are already a few PDP emulators... :^) unless anyone can speak up for another 12 bit architecture perhaps it will be the cdc-160. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 15:16:57 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:16:57 +0000 Subject: test Message-ID: <422CC4C9.5090805@gjcp.net> test. Why do most of my emails to the list not show up? From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Mar 7 15:17:44 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <6208342103e430fce35e9ff6dac11049@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Ron Hudson wrote thus: > On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:21 PM, woodelf wrote: > > I don't know about hex, but the other 12 bitters were the CDC 160 > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cdc160/ and the LINC/PDP 12 machines > > that I can think of for now. > > I looked up the CDC and it looks very hex-ish. I might just do that. > the LINC/PDP12 is just a PDP-8++ right? The LINC is actually a different architecture, and was born slightly before the PDP-5 (the PDP-8's "dad"); so it's not a PDP8++. DEC later designed the LINC-8, which was sort of a LINC and a PDP-8 sharing the same apartment, and later the PDP-12 which could intermingle the two different instruction sets. But if you're looking for a hex-based 12-bit architecture to play with, the LINC architecture probably isn't what you're looking for either. :) -O.- From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 15:19:05 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:19:05 +0000 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <422CC549.90406@gjcp.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > Hey all! > > I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will > feature a > curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will be > able to > issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for mounting > virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) Have a look at http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/pdp8.tar.bz2 - it's a pretty crude PDP8 emulator that I wrote. ODT runs. Gordon. From cvisors at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:21:21 2005 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:21:21 +1100 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <422CC4C9.5090805@gjcp.net> References: <422CC4C9.5090805@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:16:57 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > test. Why do most of my emails to the list not show up? > Hi Gordon, this one did :) Benjamin From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 15:36:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:36:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks Message-ID: <200503072136.NAA21168@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >I've yet to find anyone who can make (or even duplicate from original) a >tubular key though. (Which is annoying as it'd be nice to have a backup >for the steering wheel lock on my car! :) > >cheers > >Jules Hi That is interesting. I just went to a local small shop locksmith with the lock from one of my machines and he created two keys for it at $15. He didn't even have an original key to work from, just the lock. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 15:37:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:37:32 +0000 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <422CC4C9.5090805@gjcp.net> References: <422CC4C9.5090805@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1110231452.25439.187.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 21:16 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > test. Why do most of my emails to the list not show up? I've seen a couple from you today I think (three including the test one :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 7 15:39:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:39:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Re: OT:picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050307133742.N61490@shell.lmi.net> > The solution is simple, fill every available void in the car with > styrofoam so the thing floats. "If Ted Kennedy had driven a Volkswagen, then he'd be president today" - National Lampoon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 15:54:14 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:54:14 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <422CCD86.8070601@gjcp.net> (this is one of the messages that *didn't* show up) OK, next load of questions. I've been trying to create a "virgin" system from the install media I have. I have so far successfully sysgenned and built RT11 v5.0, and installed it on an RL02. Great. However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11 installed on the hard disk). If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as DU2:, and so on. What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file. Gordon. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Mar 7 15:55:23 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:55:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard Message-ID: <20050307215523.CCDCD4000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > "Milanowski, Don" > is looking for a 09915-68000 keyboard (aka HP 98155A), > probably as used with an HP 9915 computer. HP 98155As are very rare. He is lucky to have one. Best thing to do is to use the keyboard from a Series 80 computer (the matrix is the same). **vp From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Mar 7 16:01:49 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:01:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope Message-ID: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> Jules Richardson wrote: > Presumably such machines boot from hard disk too? (I've never seen any > flavour of Windows boot from ROM). Actually HP produced a version of windows 3.1 that was in ROM They also produced a DOS system that was in ROM and a Unix system (HP-UX 5.0) that was in ROM (not just the kernel, but applications like csh and vi were in ROM as well). Anyway, today you can get systems that boot from CDROM and run from a RAMDISK. I have seen Windows 98 (or ME) running in this mode (really useful when booting off the network) so its not that hard. Finally windows CE is designed to be in ROM and you have a number of implementations that use WinCE for its GUI. **vp From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 16:01:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:01:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC Message-ID: <200503072201.OAA21188@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to >read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors >(cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me >"Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. > >I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. > >Any ideas? > >The drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Very little information online, but it >seems to support DSDD. Hi It sounds like you have the wrong sector size. It might also be that the disk are actually single density and not double. It sounds like it is reading the first sector ok. You might check the parameters for that format. Dwight From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 16:03:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:03:23 -0800 Subject: picking locks References: <58129.64.139.41.130.1109991122.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42295FEF.D319AB27@msm.umr.edu> <20050306163603.5d99b30e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16939.38279.562000.733204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1110191259.25439.2.camel@weka.localdomain> <041601c52326$fbe2c780$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <10503072032.ZM20750@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > I thought everyone used BIC pens as the backup for those steering > wheel > > locks :-). > > Nah, that's for Kryptonite bike locks :-) > > http://www.engadget.com/entry/7796925370303347/ > http://www.engadget.com/entry/8154041173872584/ > > for those who didn't know. Watch the video. Works for steering wheel locks, too: http://www.hackaday.com/entry/5574693157170125/ Vince From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:03:21 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:03:21 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422CCD86.8070601@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200503072203.j27M3Njq051170@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: 07 March 2005 21:54 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions > > However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks > built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in > total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same > as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11 > installed on the hard disk). Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my sourcecode on. Wonder if they can still be read..... cheers a/w From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Mar 7 16:16:47 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:16:47 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <422CD2CF.4050903@jcwren.com> HP/Agilent did have a scope that ran full Win98 from HD. It kinda pissed off the sales guy when I put our own network card in (something like a $750 option from HP). I think he was also annoyed when I started playing FreeCell on the scope. --jc Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>Presumably such machines boot from hard disk too? (I've never seen any >>flavour of Windows boot from ROM). >> >> > >Actually HP produced a version of windows 3.1 that was in ROM >They also produced a DOS system that was in ROM and a Unix >system (HP-UX 5.0) that was in ROM (not just the kernel, but >applications like csh and vi were in ROM as well). > >Anyway, today you can get systems that boot from CDROM and run >from a RAMDISK. I have seen Windows 98 (or ME) running in this >mode (really useful when booting off the network) so its not >that hard. > >Finally windows CE is designed to be in ROM and you have a number >of implementations that use WinCE for its GUI. > >**vp > > > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 16:19:41 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:19:41 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503072203.j27M3Njq051170@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503072203.j27M3Njq051170@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <422CD37D.9030808@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce >>Sent: 07 March 2005 21:54 >>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions >> >>However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks >>built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in >>total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same >>as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11 >>installed on the hard disk). > > > Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I > getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 > years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ DUX sounds like it's for the XM monitor - I had a play with that. On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE" that seems to have files that might point me the right way. > Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my sourcecode on. > Wonder if they can still be read..... RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it... Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:23:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:23:37 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <422CD2CF.4050903@jcwren.com> References: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> <422CD2CF.4050903@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:16:47 -0500, J.C. Wren wrote: > HP/Agilent did have a scope that ran full Win98 from HD. It kinda > pissed off the sales guy when I put our own network card in (something > like a $750 option from HP). I think he was also annoyed when I started > playing FreeCell on the scope. Been there, done that... (FreeCell _and_ the el-cheapo network adapter) -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 16:29:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:29:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard In-Reply-To: <422C4B36.4807.14083A89@localhost> References: <20050225211558.7E5AC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <422C4B36.4807.14083A89@localhost> Message-ID: <51048.64.139.41.130.1110234552.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Stan wrote: > is looking for a 09915-68000 keyboard (aka HP 98155A), > probably as used with an HP 9915 computer. I've been looking for one for three years now, with no luck yet. Eric From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 16:30:35 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:30:35 -0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503071939.j27Jd0ku006682@mwave.heeltoe.com> <16940.45924.300447.518039@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > It does show (on page 90 in Al's copy in dec/pdp11) show the overall > dimensions of a M9202 Unibus Jumper module. That's a dual wide module > and it seems to be full height. (At least the height matches that of > the UDA50 shown in the UDA50 engineering drawings). What isn't shown, > unfortunately, is the details of the edge connector. > > The UDA50 (hex module) is 8.41 by 15.688 inches board dimension. > > As for the Q-bus, those are dual or quad, not hex, but I think that > the mechanical specs are identical to those of the Unibus. > > Ok, the RQDX3 board is 8.41 high by 5.187 inches wide, same within a > few hundreds as the M9202, so that suggests the mechanicals are indeed > the same. OK, the logic handbook (1976-77, page 10) says that should be 8.430+/-0.010 by 5.187+0.015-0.020. And it gives dimensions for the edge connector, too. No hex dimensions on that page, but page 9 of "Computer Interfacing Accessories" has it. (8.422x15.688+.005/-.020) Vince From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Mar 7 16:31:06 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:31:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Questions Message-ID: Well: I finally took a leap of faith, and bought an ASR-33 from someone who wasn't anywhere near Seattle. After a previous (extremely bad) Teletype shipping experience (read: TTY dumped in box and packing peanuts poured on top; unit largely destroyed in transit; seller refused to refund and claimed damage was somehow _my_ fault; story actually got worse from there if you can believe that, but maybe that's enough for now), it took a leap of faith to try buying another one I couldn't personally pick up. But the seller took a _lot_ of extra care packing it, including bolting the typing unit to the chassis, and wonder of wonders it actually arrived completely intact. :) But in spite of that it needs some help, so I thought I'd ask a couple of questions here. -The one big problem it has is its lack of a reader power supply. The last owner got it from a government surplus program, but they neglected to supply anything but the unit itself... and so no reader supply. Does somebody have the schematic of one of these so I can build a new one? (Better yet: does somebody have a spare one I can talk them out of for a reasonable price?) -I'm looking at some DEC diagrams saying how the ASR-33 gets modified for use with a PDP-8 series interface (thanks once more to Mr. Kossow!). It says two "6RS205P484 Thyractors DEC #1100106" should be added to the unit. Okay, I admit it: I don't even know what the hell a "thyractor" _is_, much less what ratings I should be looking for re: these two. Can someone shed a little light on this? -Right now the unit is doing a lot of chattering on both Line and Local when powered on. Initially I thought something might be mechanically wrong due to being shaken around in shipping, say one of the clutches on the main shaft locking into an active position, but so far I haven't found a culprit. I'm also wondering if I'm even looking in the right direction for the problem, sooo here's the question: could the lack of a power supply for the reader be causing this behavior? (The reader itself is obviously inert right now, but I'm wondering if there's a missed connection or somesuch which could explain it.) ...At some point I'll probably ask someone with a copyholder to take some tracings and measurements for me so I can fabricate a new one, but maybe I'll just see if I can get it working first. :) -O.- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:36:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:36:57 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422CD37D.9030808@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200503072237.j27Mb7s6051825@dewey.classiccmp.org> > DUX sounds like it's for the XM monitor - I had a play with that. > On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE" > that seems to have files that might point me the right way. Good, because I've found my RL02 drive but remembered that my disks are 250 miles away at my other home! Got a micro 73 at work that should still have an RLV12 in it so that's something :) > > Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my > sourcecode on. > > Wonder if they can still be read..... > > RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it... Nooo, RL02s. 9 or 10 of them. There's also a mixture of RT11 V4 and V5 as well as SYSGEN disks for V5. They'll probably be coming down here next weekend so it'll be interesting to see how much I can remember! cheers a/w From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:39:18 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:39:18 +0000 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <26c11a64050307143999259c2@mail.gmail.com> I don't want to start any flamewars or off topic rows ...... But out of interest does anyone actually use any of these scopes. I know everyone automatically moans about win 98. Is it stable running on these ?, I would imagine that without installing extra software/hardware it should be fine, Anyone know ? Dan From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Mar 7 16:49:44 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:49:44 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:30:35 PST." <05c201c52365$488a0100$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200503072249.j27Mnicb009797@mwave.heeltoe.com> "vrs" wrote: > >OK, the logic handbook (1976-77, page 10) says that should be 8.430+/-0.010 >by 5.187+0.015-0.020. And it gives dimensions for the edge connector, too. > >No hex dimensions on that page, but page 9 of "Computer Interfacing >Accessories" has it. (8.422x15.688+.005/-.020) very nice, thanks. I don't have those books. does it say anything about the size of the "fingers", i.e. 2/4/6 slots? and the sizes of the little cuts? -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 7 16:51:37 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:51:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050307144306.O61978@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to > read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors > (cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me > "Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. > I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. > Any ideas? > The drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Very little information online, but it > seems to support DSDD. 1) What disk format is it? 2) If you can "ignore" the error on sector #1, can it read sector #2? (WD formats sometimes start too soon after the index pulse for NEC) 3) "Sector Not Found" (err #4) is likely to be due to the "wrong" format. (wrong sector size or wrong sector number), but it IS MFM 4) err #2 (address mark) means wrong density/recording type/data transfer rate -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:02:53 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:02:53 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <200503072249.j27Mnicb009797@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <05c201c52365$488a0100$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <200503072249.j27Mnicb009797@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: google for the pdf file: KA680 CPU Module Technical Manual page F-41. vax, 9000 On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:49:44 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > > "vrs" wrote: > > > >OK, the logic handbook (1976-77, page 10) says that should be 8.430+/-0.010 > >by 5.187+0.015-0.020. And it gives dimensions for the edge connector, too. > > > >No hex dimensions on that page, but page 9 of "Computer Interfacing > >Accessories" has it. (8.422x15.688+.005/-.020) > > very nice, thanks. I don't have those books. > > does it say anything about the size of the "fingers", i.e. 2/4/6 slots? > > and the sizes of the little cuts? > > -brad > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 7 17:08:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:08:45 -0000 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002301c5236a$9e531e00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > It has been shown that the windows will work for several > minutes, ... that's about the limit for Windows normally ... > even in salt water. I find the idea of Windows and salt water quite pleasing for some strange reason :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 17:16:59 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:16:59 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503072237.j27Mb7s6051825@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503072237.j27Mb7s6051825@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <422CE0EB.3090609@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: >>DUX sounds like it's for the XM monitor - I had a play with that. >>On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE" >>that seems to have files that might point me the right way. > > > Good, because I've found my RL02 drive but remembered that my disks are 250 > miles away at my other home! Got a micro 73 at work that should still have > an RLV12 in it so that's something :) > > >>>Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my >> >>sourcecode on. >> >>>Wonder if they can still be read..... >> >>RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it... > > > Nooo, RL02s. 9 or 10 of them. There's also a mixture of RT11 V4 and V5 as > well as SYSGEN disks for V5. They'll probably be coming down here next > weekend so it'll be interesting to see how much I can remember! > Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a big problem. Gordon. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 7 17:16:52 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:16:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: Re: OT:picking locks (OT) Message-ID: <20050307231652.29143.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >"If Ted Kennedy had driven a Volkswagen, then he'd be president > today" > - National Lampoon Perhaps not .. http://www.themotionstore.com/leeedavison/crunch.html Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:42:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:42:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 7, 5 07:38:34 am Message-ID: > Yes, a web forum would be Different and All, but at least it > throws away all this haggling about list traffic and MX debugging. > A little LAMP server, a little postNuke, we could be up in minutes. > > Yes, I know it would require a modern web browser. Is this the It would certainly get rid of me, and a fair few others, I suspect. The reasons are simple : 1) The major advantage of a mailing list is that you read it off-line. You can take as long as you need to look things up, take machines apart to check things, asn so (yus, I do do that to answer questions here). I would not want to do that if I was paying for the time (which I would be if it was a web-based forum). 2) None of my machines can run a modern web browser. If you want me to run one, then you can get me a machine, you can get me a house extension to house it, and you can maintain it for as long as I want to use it. I'm quite happy with the machines I've got, thank you. Yes, I'd miss this list, but I think I could live without it... 3) Web-based fora seem to attract a lot more off-topic garbage than mailing lists. I suspect we'd be overrun with XP questions within a week (or less). 4) I can keep an archive on my own machine of postings that interest me (read : apply to machines I'm restoring). That way I can read them at all times (telephone changes are generaly too high for me to dial in during the working day). > Civil War re-enactor list? Are my buttons and hardtack not > authentic enough? Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list > as opposed to the web? It's not an emotioanl attraction. I just don't believe that a more modern solution is necessarily superior to that which it claims to replace in all cases -- which is why I use film-based cameras (for all I can see the advantage of digial for, say, press photography), why I use a command-line user interface, why I draw schematics by hand (I'll use a CAD system when I find one that actually _aids_ rather than hinders me), and why I prefre mailing lists to web fora for things like this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:16:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:16:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200503070135.UAA28457@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 6, 5 08:29:06 pm Message-ID: > > >> But you probably could do fine, I'd guess, by just cutting the mains > >> ground connection for one or the other supply, as appropriate. > > No, don;'t do that. FOr one thing most PSUs have a mains filter > > including 3 delta-connected capacitors. If you take off the ground > > wire, the chassis wil try and float at half mains voltage (!). > > Well, only to the extent that the capcitors pass current. It doesn't > much matter if it floats at half mains voltage open-circuit if it has > multiple megohms impedance/resistance to either mains rail! My experience is that most mains filters will pass enough current to the (open-circuit)_ ground connectiong to give you quite a tingle and to zap some semiconductor devices. > > And for another thing, if you have a component failure, you could end > > up with mains on the case or output side, and the fuse won't fail. > > Well, it depends on what happens when the other supply sees mains > voltage between its output 12V line and its ground line. But yes, this > may be a concern; you may want to find something like a nice hefty 15V > zener - one that can sink substantial current - and install it on the I would have to nbe able to pass the short-circuit current of the mains IMHO. That's a fair few kA. A really big zener (or zener + SCR). I'd be much happier working with a supply desigend to give 24V. Heck, I'd be happier trying to rewind the transformer in a PC SMPSU to give 24V. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:45:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:45:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 7, 5 08:18:43 am Message-ID: > > At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: > >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > > That would explain its unpopularity, of course. Anybody who believes 'popular' == 'good' is, IMHO, a total idiot! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:50:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:50:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 7, 5 09:23:29 am Message-ID: > But it would also be cool to have machine- and topic- specific forums. Which could be trivially done by separate mailing lists. But actually, I don't like that idea either. I like this list _because_ it covers all classic computers. Now, there are machines I am not particlarly interested in (for example 8 bit home micros of the early 80's), so if it was all split up into separate lists, I'd probably not read the C64 or Spectrum parts. But, you know, I've picked up tips by reading posts about such machines here that have been useful to me in restoring the machines I _am_ interested in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 16:56:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:56:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <200503071144.57209.kenziem@sympatico.ca> from "Mike" at Mar 7, 5 11:44:55 am Message-ID: > Mailman has a web interface. Its not so good if you're on dialup or a slow > connection, but you can stay upto date from Internet cafes. You are seriouisly suggesting that I carry a pile of service manuals, classic computers, and test gear (all of which I've been known to use in order to answer questions here) to the local internet cafe? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 17:06:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:06:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard In-Reply-To: <422C4B36.4807.14083A89@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at Mar 7, 5 12:38:14 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > This guy: > > > From: "Milanowski, Don" > > is looking for a 09915-68000 keyboard (aka HP 98155A), > probably as used with an HP 9915 computer. Isn't just about everybody who has a 9915 looking for one? I have the pinout of the keyboard connector on the 9915. The keyboard matrix is the same as for the HP85 (and the service manual for that is on the MoHPC CD-ROM). It is just a matrix of switches (OK, shift, ctrl, caps lock are outside the main matrix, if you see what I mean), and a speaker. No active components. I am thinking of 3 solutions : 1) Find a broken 85, raid the keyboard, wire it to a DB25. Problem is that HP stuff rarely dies... 2) Wire up a matrix of switches. 3) Make an interface (microcontroller + a few ICs) to like a PC/AT keyboard to the 9915. Probably the best solution, but the most work. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 17:27:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:27:37 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050307143999259c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> <26c11a64050307143999259c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:39:18 +0000, Dan Williams wrote: > I don't want to start any flamewars or off topic rows ...... > But out of interest does anyone actually use any of these scopes. I > know everyone automatically moans about win 98. Is it stable running > on these ?, I would imagine that without installing extra > software/hardware it should be fine, Anyone know ? I have used one (obviously, from my stories)... my largest complaint is that if one forgets to shut Windows down before turning off the scope, the filesystem can be corrupted (yes... it does happen). My second largest complaint is how long it takes to "warm up"... my old analog Tek scope, or a LeCroy digital scope (owned by my employer) is ready to go in much less than a minute. Once things are up and running, I have no complaints about the HP scope I've been describing. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 17:32:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:32:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503072203.j27M3Njq051170@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I > getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 > years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two letter signify? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 17:37:37 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:37:37 -0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503072249.j27Mnicb009797@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > >OK, the logic handbook (1976-77, page 10) says that should be 8.430+/-0.010 > >by 5.187+0.015-0.020. And it gives dimensions for the edge connector, too. > > > >No hex dimensions on that page, but page 9 of "Computer Interfacing > >Accessories" has it. (8.422x15.688+.005/-.020) > > very nice, thanks. I don't have those books. > > does it say anything about the size of the "fingers", i.e. 2/4/6 slots? > > and the sizes of the little cuts? Yes, it does. What I haven't figure out is how to concisely and accurately convey the information without a picture. Basically, the fingers are .080" across by .563", and spaced at 1/8". The outside notches are .100+/-.01 inches. The narrow notches are .258", and the wide notches are .510" The short side notch and the shallow part of the notches are .625", the deeper notching is .725". The deeper notching in the interior is .140" (instead of the .100" on the outside edges). The tabs are 2.240" wide. It looks like the center-center distance from the first pad on a tab to the last is 2.125". Hope that helps. (If you want I can just send you an Eagle CAD file for an Omnibus card outline with edge connectors, and you can hack on it to make an extended length hex card outline.) Vince From willisjo at zianet.com Mon Mar 7 17:39:15 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:39:15 -0700 Subject: VMS startup problem? In-Reply-To: <33999.135.196.108.27.1110212958.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: I now get a message that says waiting to form or join a VAXcluster system and then it hangs again. on 3/7/05 9:29 AM, Witchy at witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Having a bit of a problem starting VMS 5.1. It seems that it begins >> execution of the startup procedure, but then it hangs. I'm wondering >> if there's a way to bypass the startup procedures so I can find out >> what's wrong. Here's the messages I get: > > In addition to what Dan said if you're feeling masochistic set STARTUP_P2 > to "TRUE" before you CONTINUE - everything that startup.com does will be > dumped to the screen so you can see exactly what's going on..... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 17:28:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:28:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 Questions In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at Mar 7, 5 02:31:06 pm Message-ID: > -The one big problem it has is its lack of a reader power supply. The last Can't you grab it from your wrecked ASR33 (or did you manage to get that one going in the end)? > owner got it from a government surplus program, but they neglected to > supply anything but the unit itself... and so no reader supply. Does > somebody have the schematic of one of these so I can build a new one? I will ahev to hhunt, but I may have it. Isn't it in the DEC ASR33 diagrams (which are on bitsavers?) > -Right now the unit is doing a lot of chattering on both Line and Local > when powered on. Initially I thought something might be mechanically wrong In Line mode that might be right. The unit will 'space out' (telegraph term) if there's no current in the recieve loop. The receiver side will run continuously, it'll decode NULs and therefore not print anything. In Local mode, it shouldn't do that, of course. Start by looking at the transmit shaft and distributor brush (rear right of the typing unit). If that's spinning all the time, then you do have a mechanical problem. Most likely the typing unit came free from the base during shipping, or the H-plate is not installed properly, something like that. If the transmit side is not truning, then you may well have an electrical problem. Most likly the receiving magnet (rear left of the typing unit, near the punch) is not energixed. Maybe a fault on the call control unit chassis. > due to being shaken around in shipping, say one of the clutches on the > main shaft locking into an active position, but so far I haven't found a > culprit. I'm also wondering if I'm even looking in the right direction > for the problem, sooo here's the question: could the lack of a power > supply for the reader be causing this behavior? (The reader itself is No. That is certainly not the problem. -tony From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Mar 7 17:41:30 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 7, 5 07:38:34 am Message-ID: <35315.127.0.0.1.1110238890.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> On Mon, March 7, 2005 2:42 pm, Tony Duell said: > 3) Web-based fora seem to attract a lot more off-topic garbage than > mailing lists. I suspect we'd be overrun with XP questions within a week > (or less). I won't respond to 1 and 2 because I agree that they are advantages of lists versus forums. I can easily refute #3 above, though, since my forums are not at all "overrun" by any off-topic nonsense. In fact, this very list has had a much higher percentage of blatantly off-topic posts since I've been a member than my forums ever have. I do get the occassional off-topic posts, but I have message areas to redirect those to. Also, I can actually go back and delete off-topic nonsense at any time. You can't unsend an email. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage, but I prefer to think of it as a benefit in responsible hands. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 17:50:30 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:50:30 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422CE8C6.4010100@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > > >>Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I >>getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 >>years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ > > > What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two > letter signify? > eXtended Memory, and Single Job. There's also Foreground/Background, and another one I can't remember. Gordon. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 7 17:56:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:56:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422CCD86.8070601@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 07, 2005 09:54:14 PM Message-ID: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> > However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks built into the > PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my > own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the > version of RT11 installed on the hard disk). > If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as DU2:, > and so on. > > What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't > appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file. I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy at the moment). SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0 SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2 SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0 Zane From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:11:32 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:11:32 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 processor schematics Message-ID: <021b01c52373$62525020$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, a few days ago, I found a set of schematics for an 11/45 processor (KB11), I think on the site of someone on this list. Like an idiot, I didn't bookmark them, and now I can't find them :-( Can anyone help - they were in TIF format. Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Mar 7 18:14:09 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 19:14:09 -0500 Subject: The ettiquete of Windows 98 on an HP Oscilloscope In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050307143999259c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050307220149.54B174000B9@ws75.cs.drexel.edu> <26c11a64050307143999259c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <422CEE51.2060905@jcwren.com> I used ours for about a year (we had 4 of them, actually), never had a problem. You have to understand that Win98 is pretty stable when you're not using all these wonky third part drivers for goofy little webcams, off-brand video cards, discount Taiwanese USB devices, etc. Basically, it boots up and provides graphics and disk storage to an application. The front panel is nothing more than a bunch of I/O, and the D/As and amps for the probes are an input device. The application boots up, you've got a scope. Very reliable. --jc Dan Williams wrote: >I don't want to start any flamewars or off topic rows ...... >But out of interest does anyone actually use any of these scopes. I >know everyone automatically moans about win 98. Is it stable running >on these ?, I would imagine that without installing extra >software/hardware it should be fine, Anyone know ? > > >Dan > > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:17:31 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:17:31 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 problems. Message-ID: <022401c52374$38ca7ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, I think I have arrived at pretty much the same point as Jay on my 11/45. Ive stripped it down to the minimum - processor, memory management, memory (UFUM) and timing generator. Toggling in from the front panel, I can see the data lines change, but I'm not getting address data on the Unibus. My next test, is to try and look at the address data between the processor and the memory management module. Does anyone have any other tips? Thansk Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 18:16:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:16:34 -0700 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <6208342103e430fce35e9ff6dac11049@sbcglobal.net> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> <6208342103e430fce35e9ff6dac11049@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <422CEEE2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:21 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> I don't know about hex, but the other 12 bitters were the CDC 160 >> http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cdc160/ and the LINC/PDP 12 machines >> that I can think of for now. >> > > I looked up the CDC and it looks very hex-ish. I might just do that. > the LINC/PDP12 is just a PDP-8++ right? > No the LINC is a nice computer for lab experiments. The PDP 12 is a computer that has a dual instruction set PDP 8 or LINC. Ben alias woodelf From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 18:23:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:23:09 -0600 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: Message-ID: <001c01c52375$04503bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two > letter signify? SJ = Single Job Monitor XM = either Extended Memory Monitor or Extended Monitor, I forget which. Jay From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Mar 7 18:24:58 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 05 00:24:58 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503080024.AA25636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It would certainly get rid of me, and a fair few others, I suspect. Me too of course, but see below. > 2) None of my machines can run a modern web browser. Same here of course. > Yes, I'd miss this list, but I think I could live without it... Don't worry, you'll be the first person I'll invite to mine! Screw the rest of them. Do we really need them, those modern computer wallopers? A true Classic Computist is one whose Classic Computers are his newest computers. I judge people by their newest computers. If you have an XP box and use it, to me you are a worthless XP luser, and I don't care whether or not you also happen to have a PDP-11 or whatnot in your basement. It's your newest and most actively used computer that counts to me. If you have a PDP-11/45 and want me to respect you as a PDP-11/45 user, then make that PDP-11/45 your main and primary computer and throw that XP box out the window. -- Michael Sokolov Engineer / Researcher / Truth seeker / Freedom fighter http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 18:27:30 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:27:30 -0600 Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) References: Message-ID: <002801c52375$9f21deb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote... >> But it would also be cool to have machine- and topic- specific forums. Ok, I'll settle this. Not because of being dictatorial, but because this issue has come up many times before and the classiccmp communitity has already spoken on the subject... There won't be machine and topic specific forums. This has been discussed before and roundly trounced as an option. Most list members prefer to see topics applying to all computers - otherwise they may miss good discussions of restoration techniques, etc. that originate on a particular hardware sublist. The same thing applies for weblogs, wiki's, and web forums. The membership as a whole has always been against this (and not that it matters, but I agree). IF the membership at large does want a wiki/web interface, I'll set one up on the classiccmp server, as it wouldn't make sense to have it processed across the wire. Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 7 18:22:18 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 18:22:18 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> At 04:45 PM 3/7/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >> >On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: >> >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >> >Because the web is shit for just about everything? >> >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > >Anybody who believes 'popular' == 'good' is, IMHO, a total idiot! I'd never say that, so logic dictates I must be a genius. I wonder what I'd be if I said that if something was popular that it must be bad. There's also a persistent geek belief-system where, once they believe a device is technologically superior, they think it should be popular and all those who believe otherwise are idiots. (Ask me, I was once an Amiga fanatic.) I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom I regard as minor gods because they generally know how to do dozens of things I can't fathom, yet these same folk claim to be unable and unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power to run a contemporary web browser and/or connect to the net faster than dialup. All because they're dead-certain that it's not better than TECO and their VT-100? Lordy! To wit, I'll summarize some of the savvy arguments posted so far against web-based forums: Web sites are slow. Not all browsers can use them. You need browser plug-ins to use web sites. They're not ASCII and you can't save ASCII from them. You can't make a local copy. I can't run 'grep' directly on them. I'm paying for Internet by the byte and/or minute. I don't have room for another computer. Web sites are always immediately overrun by clueless WinXP sufferers and will drift off-topic. Web sites are confusing because all of them don't have the same interface. Web sites are in reverse video. You lose the ability to edit text when posting to a web site. A few thoughts ran through my mind while I wrote this. One, the phrase "Techno-Amish". Hurry, the domain name hasn't been registered. Two, "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new technology." Not a day goes by that I don't encounter a web- or programming- related concept that is new to me. I've been geek and programmer and reader and writer for all of my 41 years, and doing it for money for about 25, but if I ever stop being curious about *new* technology, please shoot me. Then you can have all my old stuff. - John From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 7 18:42:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Web forums vs mailing list (was Re: minor list changes) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307090206.04e10ad0@mail> Message-ID: <20050307163732.N635@localhost> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > just saying "poopie". Poopie. > Has no one invented a web forum / mailing list hybrid, where web > postings are echoed to the mailing list, and vice versa, and it > updates in real-time or something close to it? If some large > percentage of subscribers switched to this web version, it would > certainly lessen the load on the SMTP-based list. Now if a web interface did something useful to the content, like find deep cross-references, linkages, or something, besides burden with sugar and bloat, that would probably get some use. Or present the data in some truly useful graphical way that made sense to eyes body and brain. It's rare enough when software can do that. Spreadsheets were that, once. Tables are now Part of the Problem. The problem is still that humans can do things that computers cannot. While we're not doing those interesting problems with email, mired mired in tradition (Simpson's "A HERITAGE OF TRADITION!"), we're at least not doing it with low overhead and only as much presentational sugar and bloat as we each choose. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:42:11 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:42:11 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422CE0EB.3090609@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200503080042.j280gKKS054355@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: 07 March 2005 23:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions > > Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the > cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a > big problem. Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :) a/w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:47:02 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:47:02 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503080047.j280l9wQ054448@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 07 March 2005 23:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions > > What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the > last two letter signify? XM is eXtended Monitor, SJ is Single Job and there was also RT11FB for foreground/background which let you have not-quite-multitasking on a single user system. The reasons for us using XM over FB or SJ have been lost in the mists of time - we used CTS300 over the top of the OS so it didn't matter whether it was true single user or not. Bits of me think XM had the extra functionality we needed for a multi-user runtime system but..... When I have a nose through my disks it should refresh the old memory somewhat :) cheers a/w From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Mar 7 18:47:55 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 05 00:47:55 GMT Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John Foust wrote: > [...] yet these same folk claim to be unable and > unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power > to run a contemporary web browser [...] To me it is a matter of religion. I see the purpose of my life in not using shitty "modern" technology, and I am ready to die for my cause and to shed the last drop of my blood on the battlefield for it. But all you miscreants who are busy making the world unfit for me to live in, I will NOT give up without a fight! I have guns, and I *WILL* shoot at least a bunch of you before I go down. Heck, my philosophy is that if I kill at least ONE miscreant before I die, I will not have lived my life in vain. > phrase "Techno-Amish". I've used it to describe myself a long time ago. MS From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 7 18:49:56 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:49:56 GMT Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "RE: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions" (Mar 7, 15:32) References: Message-ID: <10503080049.ZM21520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 7 2005, 15:32, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I > > getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 > > years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ > > What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two > letter signify? SJ is the Single Job monitor, which allows you to run one thing at a time from the console. FB is the Foreground/Background monitor, which allows you to run a background task as well. XM is the eXtended Monitor, which is like FB but in addition allows the use of more than 56kB memory (by paging). Device drivers for XM have a three-letter filename, with the third letter always being 'X'. BL is the BaseLine monitor, which is what is on the distribution media. It's like SJ, but includes all the devices you're likely to want to boot from (so you can do a SYSGEN and transfer your customised monitor to your preferred boot medium) and excludes all the frilly bits you might want but aren't needed for a SYSGEN. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 18:52:37 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:52:37 -0600 Subject: minor list changes References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> Message-ID: <018201c52379$2087e8c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote... > A few thoughts ran through my mind while I wrote this. One, the > phrase "Techno-Amish". Hurry, the domain name hasn't been registered. > Two, "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new technology." I don't think it's the fact that it's "new" that causes many people here to reject it. I think it's a case of people who firmly believe in using the right tool for the right job. Most of us feel that this method of communication should be via email because it's best for the job. Jay From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:57:03 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:57:03 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503080042.j280gKKS054355@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > > > Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the > > cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a > > big problem. > > Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :) > > a/w > Well if I ever manage to talk the Boss into letting me have the 11/84 with its pair of RL02's that's lurking in the corner at work, you can bring them the 20 or so miles to Chesham! I'd offer the use of the 11/45, but that would rely on me getting the controller cards from the 11/84........... Drives aren't a poblem, but controllers are! Jim. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 7 19:00:35 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:00:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Utterly insanely OT] Re: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <39127.64.139.41.130.1110243635.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Michael wrote: > and I am ready to die for my cause and > to shed the last drop of my blood on the battlefield for it. But all you > miscreants who are busy making the world unfit for me to live in, I will > NOT give up without a fight! I have guns, and I *WILL* shoot at least > a bunch of you before I go down. Maybe you'd be better off not hanging out on a mailing list full of us infidels, then. You never know, we might sap your precious bodily fluids or something. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:50:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:50:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/45 processor schematics In-Reply-To: <021b01c52373$62525020$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Mar 8, 5 00:11:32 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > a few days ago, I found a set of schematics for an 11/45 processor = > (KB11), I think on the site of someone on this list. > > Like an idiot, I didn't bookmark them, and now I can't find them :-( > > Can anyone help - they were in TIF format. Probably not what you found (becuase on this site everything seems to be .pdf), but you might look on bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/) and follow the link for documentation library. There's a lot of good stuff there, including a lot of PDP11 processor schematics -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 18:52:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:52:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/45 problems. In-Reply-To: <022401c52374$38ca7ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Mar 8, 5 00:17:31 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I think I have arrived at pretty much the same point as Jay on my 11/45. = > Ive stripped it down to the minimum - processor, memory management, = > memory (UFUM) and timing generator. > > Toggling in from the front panel, I can see the data lines change, but = > I'm not getting address data on the Unibus. > > My next test, is to try and look at the address data between the = > processor and the memory management module. > > Does anyone have any other tips? A general comment : If you're missing an entire data or address bus, it's more likely you're missing an enable signal than all 16 or 18 drivers for whatever set of lines have failed at once. So I'd do essentially what you're doing (trace the lines backwards towards the source), then start looking at enables for whatever stage seems to have failed. -tony From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Mar 7 19:12:50 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:12:50 -0500 Subject: [Taken] Free SS1000 for Boston-area pickup Message-ID: <200503080112.j281Coa2025391@gate.crash.com> I wrote: > Free to a good home: Sun SPARCserver 1000 (not E) with one disk > tray and one processor board. [...] It's been claimed, thanks. --S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 7 19:03:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 7, 5 06:22:18 pm Message-ID: > > At 04:45 PM 3/7/2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: > >> >On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: > >> >> Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? > >> >Because the web is shit for just about everything? > >> > >> That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > > >Anybody who believes 'popular' == 'good' is, IMHO, a total idiot! > > I'd never say that, so logic dictates I must be a genius. False. A statemnt does not imply its inverse. > I wonder what I'd be if I said that if something was popular > that it must be bad. That also happens to be false IMHO. > I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the > right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would > cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert > island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all > mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom I'd have thought most of those were natural for classicmp'ers... > I regard as minor gods because they generally know how to do dozens > of things I can't fathom, yet these same folk claim to be unable and > unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power > to run a contemporary web browser and/or connect to the net faster > than dialup. All because they're dead-certain that it's not better than > TECO and their VT-100? Lordy! Well I cetainly can't do any of those. I have never been offered a PC faster than a 286. I certainly can't afford broadband. And I don't mind admitting I am not clever enough to repair modern PCs, I don't have a BGA rework station (although that is something I must think about sometime), and actually I don't particularly want to spend my time doing any of that. [...] > A few thoughts ran through my mind while I wrote this. One, the > phrase "Techno-Amish". Hurry, the domain name hasn't been registered. > Two, "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new technology." I am not particularly scared of new technology. I am scared (or rather I object to) using inappropriate technology. For the time, just because something is new does not automatically make it better than that which came before. Classicmp'ers more than anyone should realise that. There are times when IMHO the more modern solution is better. I use e-mail a lot more than paper mail or voice telephone. I use a word processeor (actually an editor and formatter) more than a typewriter (although there are times when I use a typewriter). I use an electronic calculator more than a slide rule (but again I do use the latter from time to time). And there are also times when for what I want to do the more modern solution is _NOT_ an improvement. I much perfer a command line to a GUI. I much prefer mailing lists to web fora. I prefer large-format film cameras to digital cameras. And so on. > > Not a day goes by that I don't encounter a web- or programming- > related concept that is new to me. I've been geek and programmer I learn something every day too. The day I stop learning is the day I am 6' under in a pine box. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 19:15:57 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:15:57 -0600 Subject: [Utterly insanely OT] Re: minor list changes References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <39127.64.139.41.130.1110243635.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <037101c5237c$62111250$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> *giggle* PLEASE DONT FEED THE BEARS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 7 19:16:00 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Questions Message-ID: <200503080116.RAA21269@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "O. Sharp" > > >Well: I finally took a leap of faith, and bought an ASR-33 from someone >who wasn't anywhere near Seattle. After a previous (extremely bad) >Teletype shipping experience (read: TTY dumped in box and packing peanuts >poured on top; unit largely destroyed in transit; seller refused to >refund and claimed damage was somehow _my_ fault; story actually got >worse from there if you can believe that, but maybe that's enough for >now), it took a leap of faith to try buying another one I couldn't >personally pick up. But the seller took a _lot_ of extra care packing it, >including bolting the typing unit to the chassis, and wonder of wonders >it actually arrived completely intact. :) > >But in spite of that it needs some help, so I thought I'd ask a couple of >questions here. > >-The one big problem it has is its lack of a reader power supply. The last >owner got it from a government surplus program, but they neglected to >supply anything but the unit itself... and so no reader supply. Does >somebody have the schematic of one of these so I can build a new one? >(Better yet: does somebody have a spare one I can talk them out of for a >reasonable price?) > >-I'm looking at some DEC diagrams saying how the ASR-33 gets modified for >use with a PDP-8 series interface (thanks once more to Mr. Kossow!). It >says two "6RS205P484 Thyractors DEC #1100106" should be added to the unit. >Okay, I admit it: I don't even know what the hell a "thyractor" _is_, >much less what ratings I should be looking for re: these two. Can >someone shed a little light on this? > >-Right now the unit is doing a lot of chattering on both Line and Local >when powered on. Initially I thought something might be mechanically wrong >due to being shaken around in shipping, say one of the clutches on the >main shaft locking into an active position, but so far I haven't found a >culprit. I'm also wondering if I'm even looking in the right direction >for the problem, sooo here's the question: could the lack of a power >supply for the reader be causing this behavior? (The reader itself is >obviously inert right now, but I'm wondering if there's a missed >connection or somesuch which could explain it. Hi If by the reader, you mean the tape reader? In local mode, it should lock up if the tape is turned off and the keyboard is reset ( H connector working ). I've made a supply from the manual for the tape reader. The only part that is hard to get is the power resistor. I just used two in series to get the value. Still, this is not needed to lock up. Dwight > >...At some point I'll probably ask someone with a copyholder to take some >tracings and measurements for me so I can fabricate a new one, but maybe >I'll just see if I can get it working first. :) > > -O.- > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 7 19:17:39 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:17:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> from John Foust at "Mar 7, 5 06:22:18 pm" Message-ID: <200503080117.RAA13080@floodgap.com> > There's also a persistent geek belief-system where, once they > believe a device is technologically superior, they think it > should be popular and all those who believe otherwise are idiots. The irony is, one person here seems to have precisely that perspective when it comes to web forums. I wonder who that is. Hmm. > To wit, I'll summarize some of the savvy arguments posted so far against > web-based forums: Web sites are slow. Not all browsers can use them. > You need browser plug-ins to use web sites. They're not ASCII > and you can't save ASCII from them. You can't make a local copy. > I can't run 'grep' directly on them. I'm paying for Internet > by the byte and/or minute. I don't have room for another computer. > Web sites are always immediately overrun by clueless WinXP sufferers > and will drift off-topic. Web sites are confusing because all of > them don't have the same interface. Web sites are in reverse video. > You lose the ability to edit text when posting to a web site. And these are bad arguments why? Are these reasons somehow unjustified? Especially things like connect charges, software incompatibilities, ... I don't see why it's unreasonable to assert these things or how it can be determined necessarily that the reason proceeds from nothing other than codgerism. Perhaps people really are concerned about text editing ability? Should that be ignored in the face of all that is new and allegedly wonderful when in reality it might simply just be new and sucky? > A few thoughts ran through my mind while I wrote this. One, the > phrase "Techno-Amish". Hurry, the domain name hasn't been registered. > Two, "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new technology." I prefer Neo-Luddite. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montagu ------------ From dlormand at aztecfreenet.org Mon Mar 7 19:16:49 2005 From: dlormand at aztecfreenet.org (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:16:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: The Solution (was: Re: List etiquette) Message-ID: <200503080116.j281GnZ2029816@aztec2.aztecfreenet.org> >PS If anyone on the list knows of a good place to find a TI99/4A complete >with PEM, etc... http://www.99er.net is a good place to start, also the OLUG at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ti99-4a/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 19:25:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > John Foust wrote: > > > [...] yet these same folk claim to be unable and > > unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power > > to run a contemporary web browser [...] > > To me it is a matter of religion. I see the purpose of my life in not > using shitty "modern" technology, and I am ready to die for my cause and > to shed the last drop of my blood on the battlefield for it. But all you > miscreants who are busy making the world unfit for me to live in, I will > NOT give up without a fight! I have guns, and I *WILL* shoot at least > a bunch of you before I go down. Heck, my philosophy is that if I kill > at least ONE miscreant before I die, I will not have lived my life in > vain. My buddy, George Bush, just told you to bring it on. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Mar 7 19:31:23 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:31:23 EST Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) Message-ID: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> I'd be interested- couldn't start 'till we spring the kids for summer break, though. - Scott Quinn From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 7 19:32:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:32:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20050307172917.L635@localhost> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: > I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will feature a > curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will be able > to > issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for mounting > virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written for it, even though it never physically existed. There was no physical representation, if you were to make one, it would add to the coolness of it. From vrs at msn.com Mon Mar 7 19:33:37 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:33:37 -0800 Subject: minor list changes References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: From: "Michael Sokolov" > > [...] yet these same folk claim to be unable and > > unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power > > to run a contemporary web browser [...] > > To me it is a matter of religion. I see the purpose of my life in not > using shitty "modern" technology, and I am ready to die for my cause and > to shed the last drop of my blood on the battlefield for it. But all you > miscreants who are busy making the world unfit for me to live in, I will > NOT give up without a fight! I have guns, and I *WILL* shoot at least > a bunch of you before I go down. Heck, my philosophy is that if I kill > at least ONE miscreant before I die, I will not have lived my life in > vain. > > > phrase "Techno-Amish". > > I've used it to describe myself a long time ago. Just a quick note -- the real Amish are pacifists, and don't believe in warfare. I am pretty sure they'd be mightily offended by you using their name. Vince From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 19:30:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:30:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <10503080049.ZM21520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > XM is the eXtended Monitor, which is like FB but in addition allows the > use of more than 56kB memory (by paging). Device drivers for XM have a > three-letter filename, with the third letter always being 'X'. So I imagine any device drive with the X at the end is the better one to use with the XM monitor? Or is it mandatory to use X device drivers in the XM monitor? > BL is the BaseLine monitor, which is what is on the distribution media. > It's like SJ, but includes all the devices you're likely to want to > boot from (so you can do a SYSGEN and transfer your customised monitor > to your preferred boot medium) and excludes all the frilly bits you > might want but aren't needed for a SYSGEN. So this brings up another question: I've noticed that I don't explicitly need to LOAD device drivers for the devices I want to use when I boot RT-11. In particular, I don't need to LOAD DD when I want to use the TU58 simulator. Are they found and loaded automatically when the OS boots, or...? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 19:37:41 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:37:41 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <422CEEE2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <422CB7E7.7040900@jetnet.ab.ca> <6208342103e430fce35e9ff6dac11049@sbcglobal.net> <422CEEE2.5000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8f901428b2ea55ec1d60fe958019d238@sbcglobal.net> I have found some pictures... Has anyone ever used one of these? (CDC 160?) I don't see a bank of switches... can you fat finger in code? It looks like there is a block input instruction, perhaps instead of fat fingering code you produce a binary tape and run it in to boot the machine? It looks like the three big displays match the A, S, and PC registers and are in octal... right? thanks. ron. From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:47:17 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:47:17 +0000 Subject: picking locks and/or Got an extra VAX 4000? In-Reply-To: <200503071934.j27JY3WU005972@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> <200503071934.j27JY3WU005972@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640503071747403b54ec@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:34:03 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > > >Hi > > It has been shown that the windows will work for several > >minutes, even in salt water. You do have to remember to > >not turn the ignition off while trying to get out of the car. > > heh. reminds me of underwater egress training. remember to use > the heel of that big knife to break the glass :-) oh yea, and notice > which way the bubbles go - that's *up* :-) > > (damn. I'm sure I'm way over quota on off-topics now. humm...) > > Anyone near Boston got a spare VAX 4000 in a BA400 they don't need? > > -brad > No, but I'll mention it again. I've got a r4000x and a 6' empty pdp rack anyone can take for free from central London. I've been trying to get rid of them for about a year now and nobody is interested. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 19:53:52 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:53:52 +0000 Subject: VMS startup problem? In-Reply-To: References: <33999.135.196.108.27.1110212958.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a6405030717534ce92db2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:39:15 -0700, John Willis wrote: > > I now get a message that says > > waiting to form or join a VAXcluster system > > and then it hangs again. > If you use what I said before, put SET VAXCLUSTER 0 before continue. That should do the trick. It should timeout after a while and create it's own cluster, although i'm suprised it's trying to form a cluster now, you should of had this problem before it got stuck on the startup sequence. Dan Dan From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Mar 7 20:04:47 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:04:47 -0500 Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <2c8f1fc2c8e77f.2c8e77f2c8f1fc@optonline.net> > You are seriouisly suggesting that I carry a pile of service > manuals, classic computers, and test gear (all of which I've > been known to use in order to answer questions here) to > the local internet cafe? > Of course not.... you set them all up there as an exhibit!!!! From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 20:10:58 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:10:58 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: > > > phrase "Techno-Amish". > > I've used it to describe myself a long time ago. > Just a quick note -- the real Amish are pacifists, and don't believe in > warfare. I am pretty sure they'd be mightily offended by you using their > name. Without considering the 'ethics' of the situation, it seems a pretty safe bet this particular usage will never be found out... what with the chosen medium and all. -dhbarr. From news at computercollector.com Mon Mar 7 20:13:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:13:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050308021318.56197.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> >>>>> > phrase "Techno-Amish". > > I've used it to describe myself a long time ago. >>>> Just a quick note -- the real Amish are pacifists, and don't believe in warfare. I am pretty sure they'd be mightily offended by you using their name. << ----- Heck, I'm offended by it, and I'm Jewish! Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From davess111 at juno.com Mon Mar 7 20:19:05 2005 From: davess111 at juno.com (davess111) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 02:19:05 GMT Subject: Unsubscribe Problems Message-ID: <20050307.182002.24724.79542@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> Mr. West , Due to the fact that your "unsubscribe" reminder feature is inoperative , could you take the time to check into that?? It would be of great help to some of us that are growing a bit tired of having our mailboxes filled up with unwanted emails. davess111 at juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Mar 7 20:23:04 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:23:04 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422D0C88.90401@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>At 08:03 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 07:38 -0600, John Foust wrote: >>> >>>>Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >>> >>>Because the web is shit for just about everything? >> >>That would explain its unpopularity, of course. > > > Anybody who believes 'popular' == 'good' is, IMHO, a total idiot! > > -tony Anybody whoe believes that everything popular is bad is also a total idiot. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Mar 7 20:21:46 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:21:46 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> Message-ID: <422D0C3A.1070606@jbrain.com> John Foust wrote: >I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the >right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would >cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert >island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all >mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom >I regard as minor gods because they generally know how to do dozens >of things I can't fathom, yet these same folk claim to be unable and >unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off PC with sufficient power >to run a contemporary web browser and/or connect to the net faster >than dialup. All because they're dead-certain that it's not better than >TECO and their VT-100? Lordy! > > Ah, stereotyping is alive and well. >A few thoughts ran through my mind while I wrote this. One, the >phrase "Techno-Amish". Hurry, the domain name hasn't been registered. >Two, "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new technology." > > I fail to see how the list you summarized indicates the users are scared. I agree some (no room for another machine) might not hold up under severe scrutiny (Honey, no room for a PC/104 IBM, but I just took deilvery of a PDP-11), but the others seem quite pragmatic. I am a web developer. I'm also an applications architect. I use web forums, I use SMTP and IMAP and POP3. I have plenty of web-capable boxen here. I love Firefox. I still agree with the sentiment that web forums are not the best fit for discussions. They do have the advantage of zero-client footprint, but that creates drawbacks as well. I'm not sure Jay would lose me if he went to a web forum (Yes, I already saw his post about it not happening, but still), but I do know that I am on a half dozen Commodore web forums. They are cute, they have relevant information. But, when time gets scarce, the aggregated flow of information via pseudo-push that SMTP/IMAP/POP3 provides makes it easier to stay up on this list, while the web forums get neglected. At some point, web forums will grow up and get a RSS-like two way protocol. When that happens, and I can aggregate forums and use an alternative app to read them, and that app can dload the forum content in batches, I'm a happy man. Web forums today are much like the Web in 1994, before WWWW, Altavista, and Google. Of the 1000s of web pages of note, it was hard to research information. When search engines came along, suddenly, there was an aggregated way to obtain information, and the web became much more useful for research. Time will create a killer web forum aggregator, and I'll be happy to see it come, but until it does arrive (and I do not have time to work on such a thing), email is the platform of choice for this Techno-Liberal. One can't help but wonder if the web forum thread is half-serious, half troll. Especially considering the list makeup. I probably should feed the troll, but the stereotyping thing seemed a bit overkill. In other news, I could many screenfuls of this thread, and the poor XP user has been beaten into submission. Can I ask that we kill the threads and move onto new (and hopefully more on-topic) discussions (via email, of course)? Or, is there some shread of trivial information that the list has not yet bludgened to death? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Mar 7 20:34:51 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> Message-ID: <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: >I'd be interested- couldn't start 'till we spring the kids for summer break, >though. > >- Scott Quinn > > > Google for "PDP8 VHDL". There's lots of hits. --jc From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 7 20:48:12 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:48:12 -0600 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:32:21 -0800 (PST) . <20050307172917.L635@localhost> Message-ID: <20050308024849.LQQA1997.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <20050307172917.L635 at localhost>, Tom Jennings writes: >On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will feature a >> curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will be able to >> issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for mounting >> virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) > >Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX >computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) >architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written >for it, even though it never physically existed. > >There was no physical representation, if you were to make one, >it would add to the coolness of it. While it doesn't have the same classic factor as MIX, there's something to be said for his newer MMIX design. It's a pretty nice design, though being 64-bit it would be a rather bigger project. Simulators (with video) and assemblers exist. GCC has even been targeted to it. Check out: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/mmix.html Brian L. Stuart From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 7 20:50:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:50:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <8f901428b2ea55ec1d60fe958019d238@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: > I have found some pictures... > > Has anyone ever used one of these? (CDC 160?) > > I don't see a bank of switches... can you fat finger in code? > > It looks like there is a block input instruction, perhaps instead of > fat fingering > code you produce a binary tape and run it in to boot the machine? > > It looks like the three big displays match the A, S, and PC registers > and are in octal... > right? Ron, These are all questions that you'll find the answers for in the CDC-160A operations manual. And you'll most definitely *have* to read it if you plan to simulate it. You do plan on reading the manual, don't you? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Mar 7 20:58:32 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:58:32 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/45 problems. In-Reply-To: <022401c52374$38ca7ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050307205624.02525558@mail.ubanproductions.com> >I think I have arrived at pretty much the same point as Jay on my 11/45. >Ive stripped it down to the minimum - processor, memory management, memory >(UFUM) and timing generator. > >Toggling in from the front panel, I can see the data lines change, but I'm >not getting address data on the Unibus. > >My next test, is to try and look at the address data between the processor >and the memory management module. > >Does anyone have any other tips? Jim, If you've removed processor options, then you will have to change the jumpering on the processor to match. Have you verified that ACLO and DCLO are both inactive and that your power supplies are good? Have you attempted to write data to your console port (as discussed in prior messages)? --tom From wacarder at usit.net Mon Mar 7 21:18:05 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:18:05 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/35 troubleshooting Message-ID: Ok, since everyone seems to be in ancient PDP-11 troubleshooting mode, I decided to get out my 11/35 and see what I can do with it. I've double checked all the processor options and the CPU boards all seem to have the jumpers set correctly. The only questionable jumpers are the two jumpers that indicate parity memory is present, but since the system seems to have some problems, I've disconnected the M981 from the MF11-LP core backplane and replaced it temporarily with an M9302. There is also an M7800 console card in the SPC slot. I've checked all the voltages and they look ok. When I power the system on, it comes up with the following lights lit: Address: 000026 (octal) Data : 000002 (octal) The PROC, BUS, and CONSOLE lights are also lit. If I press HALT and then press START, all the DATA lights come on. The RUN light also comes on, along with the PROC, BUS, and CONSOLE lights. The load address, deposit, and examine switches don't seem to do anything, although I know they are functional. Ideas? Does anyone know what the ADDR 000026 and DATA 000002 lights indicate when the system is powered on? Thanks, Ashley From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 7 21:24:46 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:24:46 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <20050307172917.L635@localhost> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will >> feature a >> curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will >> be able to >> issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for >> mounting >> virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) > > Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX > computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) > architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written > for it, even though it never physically existed. > > There was no physical representation, if you were to make one, > it would add to the coolness of it. Cool is it 12 bit, best expressed as 3 hex digits? From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 21:29:41 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:29:41 -0700 Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) In-Reply-To: <200503071410.GAA18774@floodgap.com> References: <200503071410.GAA18774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <422D1C25.1060903@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>I have A/UX 3.1 running on my AWS 95 Mac (well a Quadra 950 with the PDS >>>upgrade board), is that close enough? Original CD's and manuals of course. >> >> Yep! >> >> I have a IIci with a DiiMO '030/50 running A/UX, but I do lust for a >>Workgroup Server. And four more 16MB SIMMs, of course. :) > > > I'll chime in. My setup is nearly the same as Doc's, except it's a IIci > with a Daystar Turbo 030 (50MHz+68882) and a 8*24*GC (useless in A/UX since > the Control Panel makes the A/UX Finder panic), running 3.1. That IIci also > boots MacMiNT and System 7.1. Ohhh, kewl! What bootloader are you running? And what do you think of MacMiNT? I looked at it a while back and thought "Eh." Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 7 21:35:40 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:35:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic 680x0 UNIX platforms (was Re: Running different OSes onclassic hardware) In-Reply-To: <422D1C25.1060903@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Mar 7, 5 08:29:41 pm" Message-ID: <200503080335.TAA15404@floodgap.com> > > I'll chime in. My setup is nearly the same as Doc's, except it's a IIci > > with a Daystar Turbo 030 (50MHz+68882) and a 8*24*GC (useless in A/UX since > > the Control Panel makes the A/UX Finder panic), running 3.1. That IIci also > > boots MacMiNT and System 7.1. > > Ohhh, kewl! What bootloader are you running? System 7.1 ;) >From there, it can boot A/UX or MiNT, depending on which booter I start. I could even have it quad-booting into NetBSD, I suppose. > And what do you think of MacMiNT? I looked at it a while back and > thought "Eh." It has its uses, but without networking support, I don't mess with it much. It's nice to have a real Perl on a classic Mac, although natch A/UX does that too. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Math according to Pentium: 2 / 2 = 1.037587439439485486372112039523781385 ... From willisjo at zianet.com Mon Mar 7 21:45:23 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:45:23 -0700 Subject: VMS startup problem? Message-ID: on 3/7/05 5:29 PM, Adrian Graham at witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk wrote: > Hi John, > >> I now get a message that says >> >> waiting to form or join a VAXcluster system > > Odd, it should've done that from the word go, but never mind. It should also > form a cluster on its own but I guess if there's no license for it it might > not. At the SYSBOOT> prompt just SET VAXCLUSTER 0 and that'll stop the > clustering in its tracks. For completeness also add SET SHADOW 0 just in > case there's any volume shadowing active.... > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 22:05:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:05:56 -0700 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> Message-ID: <422D24A4.5060103@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 08:28 AM 3/7/2005, David H. Barr wrote: > >>>>>Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list as opposed to the web? >>>> >>>>Because the web is shit for just about everything? >>> >>>That would explain its unpopularity, of course. >> >>If it's popular, it *must* be right. > > > Given the task at hand, given the needs of the users, given the > recently described hassles, is mailing-list technology the best > design and solution for this task? Yes. In my Never-Humble opinion, yes. I have a ton of technical information archived in my CC email. Web forums don't offer one-click archival. A bunch of us don't have fast connections, and any web interface is going to be slower than text email. If I'm paying by the byte or by the minute for a connection, I can download all my mail, read it and compose replies offline, and upload all my replies in a very short time. There is NO corollary option on a web forum. How the heck could I kill-file Sellam on a web forum? Who told you that managing a web forum would be simpler than managing a mailing list? Email offers many, many options for thread views, sorting, saving, and sending that may be _available_ on a web forum, but that are not variable on a web forum. What I mean is that depending on my mail client, I can pre-sort list mail, see it in sequential order or as threads, color-code various posters, etc. You can do some of that in web fora, but every subscriber has the same very limited set of options and views. As a mailing list, it's totally customizable by the user. All the world is not HTML. I personally don't care much for the World Wide Web, the software to "surf" it, or the content it attracts. I've seen several LUG mailing lists go webbie, and a couple of Unix/SIG lists go to forum basis. They all either folded or went strictly L33T H4XX0RZ in a matter of months. It's a fool's interface, and it attracts fools and hordes of dilettante subscribers. Imagine 3 Jim Isbells for every serious collector on the list. I really do not think that an exponential increase in subscriptions would be anything but a disaster. You mentioned ease-of-use and accesibility in another post. I've received 350-odd emails today, mostly not spam, and will read it all and reply to 30-40 of them tonight. I will very likely not touch my mouse during that process. Please feel free to name a platform-independent browser/forum combination that allows reading, sorting, and replying with simple hotkey navigation. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 22:11:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:11:46 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <422D2602.4010601@oldskool.org> Michael Sokolov wrote: >>phrase "Techno-Amish". > > I've used it to describe myself a long time ago. I prefer "on the leading edge of the trailing edge" myself. :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 22:12:50 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:12:50 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422D2642.3060100@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > OK, thinking about getting a catweasel board for the museum. ... > The other option's the Torch Manta board, for which I do at least have Do you have a Central Point Option Board (any rev) for your museum? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 22:11:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:11:49 -0700 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <0503080024.AA25636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503080024.AA25636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <422D2605.7080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > Rant reduced ... > > > Well I'll take any unwanted XP's you have ... I like to play a computer game now and then. I consider myself a computer USER and I use computers that have. Now I do need current software and a resonable modern computer for new game I got for christmas but I consider still 640x480 a good screen size because I can read the text and a MODEST COMPUTER. Now lets all drop hen pecking about how this is run discuss COMPUTERS. Ben alias woodelf. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 22:20:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:20:58 -0600 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <422C5B11.80302@mdrconsult.com> References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050307000030.B27255@homer.berkhirt.com> <422C5B11.80302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <422D282A.8030700@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Got a pinout conversion for a display cable? I know at one point I > saw that On Teh Inturweb, but I didn't print it and the link is dead. Yes but some pins won't convert because they handle AT&T color display specific things (like degauss -- scared the living shit out of me the first time I ran the diagnostics and it said "Degausing monitor..." and sure as hell it did): AT&T PC6300 Connector: D25 1. horizontal sync 2. ID0 (monitor id) 3. vertical sync 4. red 5. green 6. blue 8. nothing 9. nothing 10. ID1 11. Mode0 12. nothing 13. -Degauss 14-21. gnd 22. nothing 23. nothing 24,25. +15V for a monochrome monitor ID0 and ID1 are open for color, ID0 is 0, and ID1 is 1, probably 5V, not 15 That's all I have, hope it helps. I don't have it in front of me but I believe the model number is AT&T 53D410. BTW, I forgot to mention in my last post that I still have said AT&T. I can take a picture of my modded case if anyone is curious. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 7 22:21:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:21:55 -0700 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <38761.127.0.0.1.1110210406.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <38761.127.0.0.1.1110210406.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <422D2863.304@mdrconsult.com> Erik Klein wrote: >>Talk about the inevitability of using modern tools to support >>our habit of old computers. > > > There are those that would fight the inevitable forever if able. The > Amish still use horse and buggy, don't they? > > >>A few more Slashdottings on interesting topics and this list >>could expand. > > > Even without that I think the hobby is growing substantially. We don't > need some sudden influx when the steady growth may well do the same thing. > > >>Yes, a web forum would be Different and All, but at least it >>throws away all this haggling about list traffic and MX debugging. >>A little LAMP server, a little postNuke, we could be up in minutes. > > > "We" already are. There are several vintage computer discussion boards > out there including my own. > > >>Yes, I know it would require a modern web browser. Is this the >>Civil War re-enactor list? Are my buttons and hardtack not >>authentic enough? Why the emotional attraction to a mailing list >>as opposed to the web? > > > The luddites are coming, the luddites are coming! :) > > I've heard the same arguments from list aficionados as from newsgroup > hounds about why web forums suck. The bottom line, though, is that > "Change is BAD!" (tm) PBBBT! I really don't think I'm a Luddite. I certainly don't fear change, in life or in computing. I *am*, however, a lazy son-of-a-bitch, and have broken one wrist and dislocated both thumbs and several fingers more than once. Read 350 posts to a mailing list, in a well-configured mail client of your choice. Read 350 posts to any web forum. Go Google "therbligs". Better yet, Google therbligs first, and consider the concept while you try to navigate the New! Improved! Web Forum. It's not the New! part that sucks, it's the "This Sucks" part that sucks. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 7 22:23:50 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 22:23:50 -0600 Subject: AT&T PC 6300, AT&T CRT 318H (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050308004838.009a8860@pop-server> References: <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050306161942.48bdcec5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <3.0.3.32.20050308004838.009a8860@pop-server> Message-ID: <422D28D6.4050402@oldskool.org> Dr. Ido wrote: > cable. Most had the 12" Taxan Supervision IV, but there was also a 17" > Taxan Supervision 770 (I may have the model wrong, but it was definitely > TTL RGBI at SuperCGA resolution, not a Multisync or SVGA). Sweet! How I would have died for a 17" monitor in those days. The flyback transformer blew in my color monitor twice, maybe that's why they were replaced so often? My monochrome AT&T monitor (very curious thing -- drew its power from the DB25, had no power cable) never failed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 22:20:36 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:20:36 -0700 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the >>right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would >>cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert >>island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all >>mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom >> >> > > Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... >I am not particularly scared of new technology. I am scared (or rather I >object to) using inappropriate technology. For the time, just >because something is new does not automatically make it better than that >which came before. Classicmp'ers more than anyone should realise that. > > Well I tust visible techology as compared to hidden or controled techology. >I learn something every day too. The day I stop learning is the day I am >6' under in a pine box. > > > Well don't snore TOO loud ... you might wake the other dead. >-tony > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 7 22:30:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:30:15 -0700 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> Message-ID: <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Mar 7, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: >> >>> I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will >>> feature a >>> curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You will >>> be able to >>> issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for >>> mounting >>> virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) >> >> >> Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX >> computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) >> architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written >> for it, even though it never physically existed. >> >> There was no physical representation, if you were to make one, >> it would add to the coolness of it. > > > Cool is it 12 bit, best expressed as 3 hex digits? > No ... I think it was decimal or base 64 depending on the computer instruction set used. I like decmal machines but thay don't make decimal addressed memory. His lateset version is risc machine, a machine I don't like because they have too low a instruction density. Now does it really matter if you use hex or octal or what ever? Ben alias woodelf From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Mar 7 22:34:54 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:34:54 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422D2B6E.1040602@compsys.to> >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > > >>Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I >>getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17 >>years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ >> >> >What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two >letter signify? > > Jerome Fine replies: Names of distributed RT-11 monitors for V04.00 to V05.05 with V05.06 and V05.07 using RT11SB (Single Background) instead of RT11SJ. UnMapped - Device drivers are dd.SYS -------- RT11AI - Used only for Auto Installation RT11BL - (Base Line) Allows only a Background job (a bit smaller than RT11SJ) RT11SJ - (Single Job) Allows only a Background job RT11FB - (Foreground Background) Allows both a Foreground and Background job The RT11FB monitor can have system jobs using a SYSGEN. UnMapped monitors use only the lower 56 KBytes of real physical memory (there are some exceptions, but normally not for user programs) with the Resident Monitor using about the top 8 KBytes and the USR using 4 KBytes (can be SWAPped) just below the LOADed device drivers. There is lower overhead with an UnMapped monitor and more lower memory available for user jobs. Mapped - Device drivers are ddX.SYS ------ RT11XM - (eXtended Memory) Allows both a Foreground and a Background job more recent versions also allow system jobs Mapped monitors allow both the lower 56 KBytes of real physical memory and extended memory (up to 256 KBytes on V04.00 and 4 MBytes on V05.0x) as it is available. The big disadvantage is the reduced amount of lower (the remainder of the lower 56 KBytes especially with the USR being NOSWAP) memory for user programs. The big advantage is the trivial availability of extended memory for user programs (which do not need an ISR or the use of the IOPAGE) via the use of the program VBGEXE which provides the user program with a full 64 KBytes of memory. Multi-terminal support is always a SYSGENed option. Any more questions? I will attempt to discuss disk partitions tomorrow! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 7 22:39:03 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:39:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> Message-ID: <200503080449.XAA16269@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm baffled by those who [are, well, classiccmpers], yet these same > folk claim to be unable and unwilling to locate and revive a cast-off > PC with sufficient power to run a contemporary web browser and/or > connect to the net faster than dialup. I'm not unable to. I'm unwilling to because I believe it would present a significantly inferior interface - and a significantly more expensive one besides, in money, time-and-effort, or both. > To wit, I'll summarize some of the savvy arguments posted so far > against web-based forums: [...]. I note you don't actually reply to, much less rebut, any of them. > [...], "They worship old technology, but they're scared of new > technology." As somoene who has posted weighing in on that side-- I'm not scared of new technology. I don't dislike GUI web browsers because they're New and Different; I dislike them because I've used them and found them inferior (for most purposes, this one included). I don't dislike reverse video because it's New and Modern; I dislike it because I've used it and find it significantly more tiring to my eyes (when used for any significant length of time - reverse video *is* easier to read for very brief stuff, say a line or two, but gets very wearing for much more than that, at least on self-luminant displays). I don't dislike Windows because it's popular to dislike Windows; I dislike it because I worked for a month as a Windows sysadmin and found that a large and significant fraction of the popular criticisms were warranted. And I don't dislike Web fora because they're New and Different and I'm scared of having to use them; I dislike them for the reasons I listed in a past message. If you can't get anything from that list but the impression that I'm scared of them, well, I see no point trying to carry this conversation any further. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Mar 7 22:52:54 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:52:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the replies. :) Picking out Tony Duell's, since it's handy: > > -The one big problem it has is its lack of a reader power supply. > > Can't you grab it from your wrecked ASR33 (or did you manage to get that > one going in the end)? Alas, no. I had UPS inspect the smashed machine and return it to the seller long, long ago. > I will ahev to hhunt, but I may have it. Isn't it in the DEC ASR33 > diagrams (which are on bitsavers?) ...Ah. I probably should have thought of that on my own. Thanks for the excellent suggestions regarding likely mechanical causes for the chatter on Local. I'll be walking through the machine with them tomorrow, and hopefully they'll solve the current problem. Then I can look to see if there are more exotic problems. :) > > [...] sooo here's the question: could the lack of a power > > supply for the reader be causing this behavior? (The reader itself is > > No. That is certainly not the problem. Thank you! The suggestions from you and others will all start getting examined tomorrow, but just to eliminate a whole area of what the problem _isn't_ is very helpful. :) :) -O.- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 7 22:50:15 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422D0C3A.1070606@jbrain.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307175020.04b901f8@mail> <422D0C3A.1070606@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200503080455.XAA16305@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Web forums] do have the advantage of zero-client footprint, I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I have been unable to think of any meaning that is actually true, at least for me. Unless someone can come up with one that's actually usable in lynx. > At some point, web forums will grow up and get a RSS-like two way > protocol. ...at which point they will be basically reinventing email, badly. Or - maybe but not likely - well, in which case they will grow to replace email, and we'll all be the better for it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 22:59:06 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:59:06 -0600 Subject: please advise me of any list problems Message-ID: <00a201c5239b$909df060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've weeded out a bunch of accounts that were slowing the list down (virtually all inactive members who's "no mail flag" being cleared wreaked havoc with non-delivery). Seems to be noticeably faster and such. So... once again I'll ask... is anyone having any problems posting to or receiving from the list? If so, please contact me immediately off-list. Soon as no one responds to one of these RFP's, I'll move on to the FAQ :) By the way... no one has mentioned if they tried the search feature on the archives. Work ok? Jay From fernande at internet1.net Mon Mar 7 23:10:33 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 00:10:33 -0500 Subject: need/want old tape drive in old movie identified Message-ID: <422D33C9.5000404@internet1.net> I just got done watching the 1969 "The Italian Job". In it, the Turin, Italy traffic system is controlled by a mainframe. All that was really shown up close was a few tape drives. I paused, and advanced frame by frame, but still had a hard time identifying the make. It looked like the reals had a "H" printed on them. Would they have been HP drives? I couldn't make out the plates on the very top of the racks. FWIW, I liked the modern Italian Job better, although some of the cars and scenery were pretty cool, in the old one. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From hachti at hachti.de Mon Mar 7 23:14:21 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:14:21 +0100 Subject: PDP8 extender Message-ID: <422D34AD.5090104@hachti.de> Hi, does anybody have an double extender card for my PDP8/L? I have just a narrow one :-( Thanks, Philipp From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 23:19:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:19:11 -0600 Subject: list queue retention References: <422D2D3D.2040205@netscape.net> Message-ID: <00b401c5239e$5d08cd30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> In case no one caught my previous post on this, a few days ago I moved the queue retention time back up to a reasonable value. I suspect Michael Sokolov is testing this out for me, his name servers (and thus email) have been down a few hours. And can we move on to classic computers now? I think we've beat all horses to death a few times ;) Jay From Ming_Mae at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:59:32 2005 From: Ming_Mae at hotmail.com (Ming_Mae at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:59:32 -0600 Subject: Plato packages for the Atari 800/XL/XE line if anyone is interested Message-ID: Do you still have these packages? Can you send pictures? How much do you want for them? Thank you for your time From Ming_Mae at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:24:11 2005 From: Ming_Mae at hotmail.com (Ming_Mae at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:24:11 -0600 Subject: RLL vs. MFM Message-ID: No you can't use a RLL with an MFM controller. Similar but not the same. Run length limited verses modulated frequency. I have an RLL controller laying around somewhere in an antistatic bag if he is interested. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:38:21 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:38:21 +0000 Subject: FTGH: DEC H3104 serial line multiplexer breakout box & cable Message-ID: Hi list, I have the above, plus its BC15D-25 cable here if anybody wants it. It goes from a Centronics-style connector to 8 MMJ sockets. I don't know which multiplexer it's for. Free, you pay shipping or collect. Contact me off-list if you're interested. Regards, Ed. From gtn at rbii.com Sun Mar 6 21:55:47 2005 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:55:47 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> <422BBA24.1030002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <639154c0707834b7b67123c44ecbb86a@rbii.com> On Mar 6, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Take a look at the original NeXT machines... the fastest NeXT was a 33 > MHz 68040 and it was very responsive. NeXT machines... that's what I collect. I have a Turbo cube... without a Dimension board (black and white) it is *very* responsive... faster than a 500Mhz IMac for most things... it can even run DOS at a reasonable clip via SoftPC. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Mar 7 09:35:03 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:35:03 -0600 Subject: PLEASE LOG IN (HP2000 emulator open for use) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone who wants to bask in the glory that was hp2000/access, feel free to: telnet mickey.ath.cx ctl-J, ctl-M until the 2nd PLEASE LOG IN hel-t001,hp2000,1 Progs in LIB (exe-$name) Progs in GRO (exe-*name) Check-out: exe-1note.x300 (nice pre-internet email...within the hp2000 system) exe-castle.b300 (hide and seek..make rooms..wonder around, make/move objects). exe-kingdm.g100 (kingdom...some of you might remember it--role playing game) Enjoy! If you want a private account, let me know. -Bob (your sysop) -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From korpela at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 11:55:32 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:55:32 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS, HFS, and other file separators In-Reply-To: <20050304173351.F648@localhost> References: <20050304150439.33767.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050304115445.H18838@wilma.widomaker.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050304110200.04574e28@mail> <1109961416.6486.151.camel@abort.crash.com> <1109965500.21184.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <8e0a51e8c160a81c63e37ff4924d2a44@sbcglobal.net> <20050304173351.F648@localhost> Message-ID: > CP/M-80 2.xx up had USER numbers. Anyone ever find a real use for > it? Besides losing files? Once you added a hard drive they were essential. I tended to segregate by language, (i.e. BASIC would be user 1, FORTRAN would be user 2, C would be user 3, Turbo Pascal would be user 4) Without them you'd never be able to find a file. Eric From korpela at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 12:17:27 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:17:27 -0800 Subject: Amiga Mouse & list datapoint for Jay... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050303110412.00b0f9b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 23:57:00 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: > > I just got an Amiga > > keyboard on ePay, but alas, no easy mice... (not even the Atari/Amiga > > switchable ones... :-( ) > > Do you have any quadrature mice at all? (Atari ST, Original Mac, old PC > 'bus mouse', Achimedes. etc). If so, it should just be a matter of wiring > up a cable adapter. It's also possible to get a PS/2 to quadrature adapter on EBay (which is essential for a KVM stitchable Amiga). Search on "Amiga Mouse Adapter". Eric From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 12:23:12 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:23:12 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <25640.195.212.29.67.1110219792.squirrel@195.212.29.67> OK, next load of questions. I've been trying to create a "virgin" system from the install media I have. I have so far successfully sysgenned and built RT11 v5.0, and installed it on an RL02. Great. However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11 installed on the hard disk). If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as DU2:, and so on. What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file. Gordon. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Mar 7 13:49:46 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:49:46 -0600 Subject: PLEASE LOG IN--hp2000 emulator open for use! In-Reply-To: <20050203235844.G641@localhost> References: <20050203235844.G641@localhost> Message-ID: Anyone who wants to bask in the glory that was hp2000/access, feel free to: telnet mickey.ath.cx ctl-J, ctl-M until the 2nd PLEASE LOG IN hel-t001,hp2000,1 Progs in LIB (exe-$name) Progs in GRO (exe-*name) Check-out: exe-1note.x300 (nice pre-internet email...within the hp2000 system) exe-castle.b300 (hide and seek..make rooms..wonder around, make/move objects). exe-kingdm.g100 (kingdom...some of you might remember it--role playing game) Enjoy! If you want a private account, let me know. -Bob (your sysop) -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 7 13:52:42 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 19:52:42 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <61784.195.212.29.83.1110225162.squirrel@195.212.29.83> OK, next load of questions. I've been trying to create a "virgin" system from the install media I have. I have so far successfully sysgenned and built RT11 v5.0, and installed it on an RL02. Great. However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11 installed on the hard disk). If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as DU2:, and so on. What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file. Gordon. From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 8 00:16:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:16:13 -0600 Subject: RLL vs. MFM References: Message-ID: <002201c523a6$589d8a30$743dd7d1@randylaptop> From: Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 6:24 PM > No you can't use a RLL with an MFM controller. Similar but not the same. > Run length limited verses modulated frequency. > I have an RLL controller laying around somewhere in an antistatic bag if > he > is interested. Yes you can. RLL drives work just fine with MFM controllers. The only "problem" is that you end up with only 2/3 of the stated data space. FM, MFM, and RLL are all just encoding techniques. RLL is a more efficient encoding method than MFM just as MFM is more efficient method than FM. Randy From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Mar 8 00:20:43 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:20:43 +0100 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting References: <200503071917.LAA21098@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000a01c523a6$f58c67d0$2101a8c0@finans> > Hi > Randy is right. They used the 24V line for the stepper. > The 12V line was used for the analog electronics. > Still, as I recall, the 24V didn't need exact regulation. > I'd have to check my schematics for the drives. > Dwight > Be sure to check the labels on the stepper motor. Some years ago I had a brief "aquintance" with a SSSD drive from Control Data. I binned it immediately, as it showed that the steppermotor needed 115VAC ! Nico From cctech at randy482.com Tue Mar 8 00:20:46 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:20:46 -0600 Subject: Disks and disk drives References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> I added a new page to my website dealing with disks and disk drives. Some of it is CP/M specific but it may be of interest to many on this list. It is a work in progress: http://www.s100-manuals.com/Disk-drives.htm If anyone sees any errors in it let me know off-list. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 01:35:23 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:35:23 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/35 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110267323.9126.11.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 22:18 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > Ok, since everyone seems to be in ancient PDP-11 > troubleshooting mode, I decided to get out my 11/35 > and see what I can do with it. > > I've double checked all the processor options and > the CPU boards all seem to have the jumpers set > correctly. The only questionable jumpers are the > two jumpers that indicate parity memory is present, > but since the system seems to have some problems, > I've disconnected the M981 from the MF11-LP core > backplane and replaced it temporarily with an > M9302. There is also an M7800 console card in > the SPC slot. Noooo!!! The M981 contains the CPU side terminators. Repeat after me, I will not plug stuff into special slots that isn't what's supposed to be there! The CPU will just flat not work if the M981 isn't plugged in. It doesn't matter what system unit it is also plugged into (just so long as it is powered). I only hope you haven't fried something. Here's what you should do: 1. Put the M981 back in 2. Put a terminator in the next system unit (M930...keep it as simple as possible) after the CPU 3. Remove all peripheral cards and replace them with bus grant cards (G727) 4. If the next system unit is a memory backplane, depopulate it (ie remove all cards) 5. put the halt/enable switch in "halt" (ie down) 6. power the system up 7. depress the "start" switch a couple of times (what happens?) 8. put an address in the switch register (say 1000) 9. depress the "load address" switch (does the address load?) 10. depress the "examine" switch repeatedly (does the address increment?) Until you can get to #10, you don't have a healthy CPU. Having a KM11 will allow you to single step the micro-code but until you've studied the micro-code flows it'll be hard to figure out what is really wrong. > > I've checked all the voltages and they look ok. > > When I power the system on, it comes up with the > following lights lit: > > Address: 000026 (octal) > Data : 000002 (octal) > > The PROC, BUS, and CONSOLE lights are also lit. > > If I press HALT and then press START, all the > DATA lights come on. The RUN light also comes > on, along with the PROC, BUS, and CONSOLE lights. > > The load address, deposit, and examine switches > don't seem to do anything, although I know they > are functional. > > Ideas? Does anyone know what the ADDR 000026 and > DATA 000002 lights indicate when the system is > powered on? > > Thanks, > Ashley > > -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 01:40:49 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:40:49 -0800 Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models Message-ID: <1110267649.9126.14.camel@linux.site> Hi, I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a PDP-11/55 and a PDP-11/t55 is (other than the obvious "t"). Anyone out there know? Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 8 02:29:04 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:29:04 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <200503080042.j280gKKS054355@dewey.classiccmp.org> <025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <422D6250.4000108@gjcp.net> Jim Beacon wrote: >>>Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the >>>cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a >>>big problem. >> >>Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :) >> >>a/w >> > > > Well if I ever manage to talk the Boss into letting me have the 11/84 with > its pair of RL02's that's lurking in the corner at work, you can bring them > the 20 or so miles to Chesham! Chesham is closer than Glasgow... Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK. Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival? > I'd offer the use of the 11/45, but that would rely on me getting the > controller cards from the 11/84........... > > Drives aren't a poblem, but controllers are! Same here. Spare drive, no controller. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 8 02:32:31 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:32:31 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <422D631F.9010909@gjcp.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy at > the moment). > SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0 > SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 > SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2 > SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0 That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put it in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly. Gordon. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Mar 8 03:04:15 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 04:04:15 -0500 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> I received the following from a friend in California. Can anyone here help answer the question? Thanx in advance ===================================== Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and a 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Mar 8 03:06:39 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 04:06:39 -0500 Subject: joining the list ? In-Reply-To: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040458.033e34f0@pop-server> How does somebody new join this list. Who do they write to, etc ? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 8 03:54:54 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 04:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: joining the list ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040458.033e34f0@pop-server> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040458.033e34f0@pop-server> Message-ID: <200503081006.FAA28538@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > How does somebody new join this list. > Who do they write to, etc ? Well, you could always try the standard -request address, as outlined in the last paragraph on page 5 of RFC 1118; the second question in section 9 of RFC 1206; the "mailing list" entry in RFC 1392; question 9.2 in RFC 1594; section 3.1.2 and 3.2.2 of RFC 1855; section 6 of RFC 2142; the last paragraph of section 1 of RFC 2369; and probably other places I didn't pick up offhand. If wherever you found out about the list includes messages with headers, you could also use either of the links present in the List-Subscribe: header of every list message. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Mar 8 04:50:47 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:50:47 +0000 Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050308105047.GB16815@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 08:56:35AM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to > read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors > (cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me > "Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. > > I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. What happens when you try to read cylinder 0 side 0 sector 1? Same errors? Try all the other possible sector numbers - CP/M disk formats often use crazy sector numbers. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david When one has bathed in Christ there is no need to bathe a second time -- St. Jerome, on why washing is a vile pagan practice From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 05:07:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:07:53 +0000 Subject: [Utterly insanely OT] Re: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <39127.64.139.41.130.1110243635.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <0503080047.AA25749@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <39127.64.139.41.130.1110243635.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <1110280073.390.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 17:00 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Michael wrote: > > and I am ready to die for my cause and > > to shed the last drop of my blood on the battlefield for it. But all you > > miscreants who are busy making the world unfit for me to live in, I will > > NOT give up without a fight! I have guns, and I *WILL* shoot at least > > a bunch of you before I go down. > > Maybe you'd be better off not hanging out on a mailing list full of > us infidels, then. You never know, we might sap your precious bodily > fluids or something. > > Eric Eric, you can keep his bodily fluids all to yourself. I certainly don't want them. ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 05:15:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:15:09 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 21:20 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > >>I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the > >>right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would > >>cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert > >>island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all > >>mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom > >> > >> > > > > > Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... Argh, don't ask things like that. You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic gates. Some sort of mechanical effort would be needed to lift sand again in order to combat gravity pulling sand downward. Not much different from a relay computer really, I suppose. Just slower. And more sandy. (I think you got your attribution wrong by the way! Tony might enjoy such a challenge :) cheers Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 8 05:15:16 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:15:16 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:37:37 PST." <063501c5236e$a5d1ec20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> "vrs" wrote: > >Hope that helps. (If you want I can just send you an Eagle CAD file for an >Omnibus card outline with edge connectors, and you can hack on it to make an >extended length hex card outline.) please do! I was going to make an Eagle script file to draw the outline and a simple program to generate a model of the fingers... I can also put it up on my web site for others, if you don't mind. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 05:24:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:24:17 +0000 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <422D2642.3060100@oldskool.org> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <422D2642.3060100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1110281057.373.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 22:12 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > OK, thinking about getting a catweasel board for the museum. > ... > > The other option's the Torch Manta board, for which I do at least have > > Do you have a Central Point Option Board (any rev) for your museum? No, in a word. Unless there's one buried in a scrap PC somewhere (we've got a few kicking around, but don't make a habit of keeping PCs past the original IBM AT - the exceptions being anything significantly oddball to warrant it). We definitely don't have a board on the shelf. The Manta's reasonably programmable - it includes the ability to play with some of the drive signal lines to cope with less-common drives, and it's fully customisable via software for different disk and drive parameters. It's just limited to FM and MFM recording and soft-sectored drives. The nice thing is that it's SCSI at the host end, so not too tricky to program for. I'll probably put a couple in an external box so I can drive 8 drives from them; that'll allow a decent range of different drive types to be catered for without pulling anything to bits! cheers Jules From James at jdfogg.com Tue Mar 8 05:40:04 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:40:04 -0500 Subject: OT:techology Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is > hollow and so can be used to channel dry sand around. > Different lengths of bamboo could be used to introduce > delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic gates. > > Some sort of mechanical effort would be needed to lift sand > again in order to combat gravity pulling sand downward. > > Not much different from a relay computer really, I suppose. > Just slower. > And more sandy. And relay computers don't like salt water, but administrators might. Hmmm, seaside computing. I think we hit on something. From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Tue Mar 8 05:47:11 2005 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:47:11 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> On Tuesday 08 March 2005 11:40 am, James Fogg wrote: > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is > > hollow and so can be used to channel dry sand around. > > Different lengths of bamboo could be used to introduce > > delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic gates. > > > > Some sort of mechanical effort would be needed to lift sand > > again in order to combat gravity pulling sand downward. > > > > Not much different from a relay computer really, I suppose. > > Just slower. > > And more sandy. > > And relay computers don't like salt water, but administrators might. > Hmmm, seaside computing. I think we hit on something. I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with windows blacked out'. When will that be...? Talk to me goose. Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From James at jdfogg.com Tue Mar 8 06:15:51 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:15:51 -0500 Subject: OT:techology Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D39@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > > Not much different from a relay computer really, I suppose. > > > Just slower. > > > And more sandy. > > > > And relay computers don't like salt water, but administrators might. > > Hmmm, seaside computing. I think we hit on something. > > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used > in direct sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is > affectionately called the 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea > with windows blacked out'. > > When will that be...? > > Talk to me goose. Done! See, that was easy. Braille terminals. The have a bed of pins and set the state of each pin (up or down) as needed. Or use a text-speech converter. I helped a blind guy fix his computer once, he used a soundblaster and a text-speech program. It "spoke" so fast I had no idea what it said but he could follow it just fine. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 06:22:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:22:13 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <1110284533.390.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 11:47 +0000, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct > sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the > 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with windows blacked out'. Bamboo troughs. Full of sand = 1, empty = 0. Works for both sighted and non-sighted people. Unless it's raining. :-) From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 8 06:37:53 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 07:37:53 -0500 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <20050308123752.NDFA25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Do you have a Central Point Option Board (any rev) for your museum? I have one of these - haven't installed it yet. From reading the documentation, it looks like it can copy disk to disk, and disk to temporary file on the hard drive and back to disk, but it does NOT look like it can copy a disk to a file and then at some point later in time copy the file back to the disk... I am mainly interested in read disk images to files for long term archival. Does anyone know if this is possible with the option board? The option board isn't really a good candidate for this anyway, as the format of the archived data is not documented (at least not in any of the material I have with the card), so you would be relying on a non-obtainable and unsupported card to restore the disks in the future - but I thought I might play with it a bit. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Mar 8 06:47:41 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:47:41 +0100 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> Message-ID: <000f01c523dd$0499f3b0$2101a8c0@finans> I never heard of a 3.25" floppy, but there was a 3" version. It was used by Amstrad (possibly others too ? ) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:04 AM Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? > I received the following from a friend in California. > Can anyone here help answer the question? > Thanx in advance > > ===================================== > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, > but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and a > 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know > anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? > > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Mar 8 06:57:26 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:57:26 -0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <000f01c523dd$0499f3b0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000601c523de$609f6d60$4d4d2c0a@atx> > I never heard of a 3.25" floppy, but there was a 3" version. It > was used by Amstrad (possibly others too ? ) There were (at least!) two different - and incompatible, of course - 3.25" drives produced. Neither got taken-up by anybody significant. The 3" drive was used in the Tatung Einstein as well as various Amstrads and possibly a few less well known systems. Andy -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 27/02/05 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 8 06:53:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:53:23 -0500 Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> References: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050308075323.00922c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:56 PM 3/7/05 -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "Dwight K. Elvey" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic >and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:36 PM >Subject: Re: picking locks (OT) > > >> At 10:26 AM 3/7/05 -0800, you wrote: >> >>From: "vrs" >> >-- >> >> >> >>Cars where the windows can be rolled down are getting harder to find. >> >> >> >>My vans (both of them) have those stupid power windows that won't >operate >> >>unless the car is running. Oh, and the back windows don't open at all >> >>(well, OK, they open a couple of inches for ventilation). >> >> >> > >> >Hi >> > How many times do you think a person >> >drives there car into the water and then >> >remembers to turn the ignition off? >> >Dwight >> > >> >> How many times do you think cars go into water and have the battery >> damaged or the electrical systems fail? Hint: here in Florida they pull >> BODIES out of underwater cars just about everyday. AND as someone else >> pointed out, the windows on many cars do not open at all or don't open all >> the way. Futhermore if the driver has disabled the power window controls >> then three out of four or even four out of four windows are disabled until >> he remembers to unlock them. I don't carry a center punch but I should. >> >> Joe >> > >How many supersized Americans can fit through a fully opened car window >these days? It's not just that Americans are being supersized, the cars (and their windows) are shrinking rapidly. BTW I watched 'SuperSize Me' last night, EVERYBODY such see this film and see what the fast food really does to the human body. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 8 07:15:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:15:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: OT:picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <20050307133742.N61490@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050307133646.00a00af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <0bf701c52347$666e6c10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050308081522.00a0c960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:39 PM 3/7/05 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: >> The solution is simple, fill every available void in the car with >> styrofoam so the thing floats. > >"If Ted Kennedy had driven a Volkswagen, then he'd be president today" > - National Lampoon ROFL! Good thing for you that I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read this! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 8 07:13:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:13:04 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard In-Reply-To: <422C4B36.4807.14083A89@localhost> References: <42210ACE.6080702@srv.net> <20050225211558.7E5AC73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050308081304.00922c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have one and Dan Veeneman has one but that's the only two that I know of. Mine IS NOT for sale and I doubt Dan's is either. The best bet is to build one. I've posted schematics of mine on the list twice so they should be in the archives. I see that "Milanowski, Don" is from EG&G. I've tried numerous times to get data from them about their products and they've been spectacularly uncooperative so I'm not inclined to help them anyway. Joe At 12:38 PM 3/7/05 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >This guy: > > > From: "Milanowski, Don" > >is looking for a 09915-68000 keyboard (aka HP 98155A), >probably as used with an HP 9915 computer. > >Photo of such a keyboard is at: > > http://www.decodesystems.com/hp98155a.html > >Can anyone help? > >thanks, > >Stan > > >-- >Stan Sieler >sieler at allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 07:07:52 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:07:52 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422D24A4.5060103@mdrconsult.com> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <1110204190.25439.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307081823.04d4ba70@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307083017.0455ce40@mail> <422D24A4.5060103@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308070635.04dbd7b8@mail> At 10:05 PM 3/7/2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > You mentioned ease-of-use and accesibility in another post. I've received 350-odd emails today, mostly not spam, and will read it all and reply to 30-40 of them tonight. I will very likely not touch my mouse during that process. Please feel free to name a platform-independent browser/forum combination that allows reading, sorting, and replying with simple hotkey navigation. >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; > rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 Glad to see you on board. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 07:12:27 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:12:27 -0600 Subject: joining the list ? In-Reply-To: <200503081006.FAA28538@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040458.033e34f0@pop-server> <200503081006.FAA28538@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308071112.04db8a28@mail> At 03:54 AM 3/8/2005, der Mouse wrote: >> How does somebody new join this list. > >Well, you could always try the standard -request address, as outlined >in the last paragraph on page 5 of RFC 1118; the second question in >section 9 of RFC 1206; the "mailing list" entry in RFC 1392; question >9.2 in RFC 1594; section 3.1.2 and 3.2.2 of RFC 1855; section 6 of RFC >2142; the last paragraph of section 1 of RFC 2369; and probably other >places I didn't pick up offhand. Be polite, be nice! Say hello, *then* kick him out because he's using a Dell on a high-speed link. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 07:16:57 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:16:57 -0600 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110284533.390.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <1110284533.390.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308071452.04db8650@mail> At 06:22 AM 3/8/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Bamboo troughs. Full of sand = 1, empty = 0. Works for both sighted and >non-sighted people. Unless it's raining. :-) Yes, I left that part out. You need water, too, to make the bamboo and sand computer. Gravity and sand alone don't move far and fast enough. Water, sand and gravity - whew, that could double the clock speed from 0.0002 Hz! Ah, but I see a snarky hand reaching up, asking "Why do you need the sand at all?" and I say "Persistence of memory!" - John From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 07:43:13 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:43:13 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <063501c5236e$a5d1ec20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:15:16 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > > "vrs" wrote: > > > >Hope that helps. (If you want I can just send you an Eagle CAD file for an > >Omnibus card outline with edge connectors, and you can hack on it to make an > >extended length hex card outline.) > > please do! > > I was going to make an Eagle script file to draw the outline and a simple > program to generate a model of the fingers... > > I can also put it up on my web site for others, if you don't mind. I have one in the gEDA/PCB format. I'd be happy to share it. vax, 9000 > > -brad > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 07:39:57 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:39:57 -0600 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422D2863.304@mdrconsult.com> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <38761.127.0.0.1.1110210406.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <422D2863.304@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308073248.04cdd8a0@mail> At 10:21 PM 3/7/2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Read 350 posts to a mailing list, in a well-configured mail client of your choice. > Read 350 posts to any web forum. > Go Google "therbligs". You're on track... the most time-wasting thing is the distraction of starting to look at other interesting sites, not the keystrokes and mouse movements you carried out to do it. > Better yet, Google therbligs first, and consider the concept while you try to navigate the New! Improved! Web Forum. > It's not the New! part that sucks, it's the "This Sucks" part that sucks. Therbligs. Interesting and relevant. Hadn't heard of them before. Would love to see some charted, in color. Color itself as a clue to whether two motions were dissonant! Wonderful! See my 2001 post below. However, in terms of time and motion, it might be easier to scroll down (using your choice of interface) rather than telling you to 'grep' your personal archive (and hoping you hadn't pre-filtered and trashed the message) and assuming that I can't simply include a hyperlink to it because this would offend those on slower, non-WWW-capable computers. - John >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:45:39 -0500 >To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: ID computer > >At 11:10 PM 5/22/01 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >>In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he stated he didn't care for >>mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your hands from the keyboard to >>the mouse, and that most navigation could be done faster via the keyboard >>than with a mouse [3]. And his current work he mentions his dislike of the >>mouse. >>[3] In my experience, that's true once you learn how to navigate a >> document via the keyboard. But there are some things I like using >> a mouse for though. > >It's interesting to note that another Apple-raised interface >theorist, Bruce Tognazzini, http://www.asktog.com/ believes >(and claims to have tested and proved) that keyboard-based, >chording shortcut users engage in a momentary lapse of consciousness >in which they recall and then position their hands for the >keystroke, and that although they *think* they're faster >than a mouse, they're not. > >See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s >Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently >reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster >than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was >faster than keyboarding. > >His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is >a high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only >boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the approximately >two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. On the other hand, >Tog also argues that two-handed chords (think the handy cut-and-paste >CTRL/C /V) result in solid productivity gains. > >Around page 180, where in fact he discusses Raskin's Cat interface and >the decision to use a single dedicated key for operations such as "Find", >Tog admits was actually fifty times faster than the Mac's mouse-move. > >This reminds me of the old joke about voice interface word processors: >"Up, up, up, left, left, left, left, no right, stop, yes, right >there ... delete that word." Or the other half of the joke, where >people poke their head over a cubicle wall and shout a command >like "format c: yes i am sure". > >- John From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Mar 8 07:34:37 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:34:37 -0500 (est) Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050308075323.00922c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 8, 05 07:53:23 am Message-ID: <200503081334.IAA06247@wordstock.com> And thusly Joe R. spake: > > It's not just that Americans are being supersized, the cars (and their > windows) are shrinking rapidly. BTW I watched 'SuperSize Me' last night, > EVERYBODY such see this film and see what the fast food really does to the > human body. > An Edmonton teacher has shown that you can *lose* weight while eating nothing but McDonald's food: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2005/03/03/948447-sun.html Cheers, Bryan Pope From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 8 07:19:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:19:20 -0500 Subject: picking locks In-Reply-To: <002301c5236a$9e531e00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <200503071830.KAA21053@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050308081920.00a1d960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:08 PM 3/7/05 +0000, Antonio wrote: >> It has been shown that the windows will work for several >> minutes, > >... that's about the limit for Windows normally ... > >> even in salt water. > >I find the idea of Windows and salt water quite pleasing >for some strange reason :-) Perhaps that explains why the reefs are dying all over the world! Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 8 08:02:49 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:02:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: picking locks (OT) In-Reply-To: <200503081334.IAA06247@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Mar 8, 5 08:34:37 am" Message-ID: <200503081402.GAA19378@floodgap.com> > > It's not just that Americans are being supersized, the cars (and their > > windows) are shrinking rapidly. BTW I watched 'SuperSize Me' last night, > > EVERYBODY such see this film and see what the fast food really does to the > > human body. > An Edmonton teacher has shown that you can *lose* weight while eating nothing > but McDonald's food: > http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2005/03/03/948447-sun.html Yes, but the key there was his exercise regimen (which was well-conceived). It really proves that if you burn what's coming in, you're in good shape. It's just that MickeyD's has so much energy-dense content as to require a lot of exertion to burn it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go get a Sausage Egg McGriddle. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Mar 8 08:02:22 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:02:22 -0500 Subject: TI Microprocessor Learning Set Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF2FF@mail10.congressfinancial.com> All: I picked-up a copy of the 9/76 BYTE magazine on eBay the other day and as I was thumbing through it last night, I noticed an ad for the Texas Instruments Microprocessor Learning Kit. The LK is composed of four modules in clear plastic cases. The first one is the Microprogrammer Learning Module and contains an array of data and address switches. The second one is the Controller. The third is the memory and the fourth is I/O. They connect through what appears to be 40-conductor ribbon cable. From the ad, the coursework appears to center around microprogramming and developing your own CPU instruction set as a learning tool. Has anyone used one of these or has one in their collection? Rich From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 8 08:21:35 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 06:21:35 -0800 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8d709f384547adb3df66dff5b2f3a374@sbcglobal.net> On Mar 7, 2005, at 8:30 PM, woodelf wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> >> On Mar 7, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>>> I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will >>>> feature a >>>> curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit machine. You >>>> will be able to >>>> issue commands to the simulator without stopping the program (for >>>> mounting >>>> virtual paper tapes, printing to files etc) >>> >>> >>> Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX >>> computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) >>> architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written >>> for it, even though it never physically existed. >>> >>> There was no physical representation, if you were to make one, >>> it would add to the coolness of it. >> >> >> Cool is it 12 bit, best expressed as 3 hex digits? >> > No ... I think it was decimal or base 64 depending on the computer > instruction > set used. I like decmal machines but thay don't make decimal addressed > memory. > His lateset version is risc machine, a machine I don't like because > they have too > low a instruction density. Now does it really matter if you use hex or > octal or what > ever? only that the function keys, which will be used to invert bits in the switch register are grouped in fours. only reason. could to a PDP-8 otherwise. > Ben alias woodelf > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 8 08:21:25 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:21:25 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters Message-ID: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Hi, Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of the following page? http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm I'm having a devil of a time getting the mouse portion of things to work. When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no data being received from the mouse. I'm wondering if the mouse init code is not liking any of the PS/2 mice I've got around. (I've tried 4 different ones.) If you've got one working, what sort of mouse do you have? I freely admit, I'm not a PIC expert, as this is my first project w/ them. :-> So any clue's anyone cares to beat me about the head and shoulders w/ will be appreciated. I do know the PIC's are "running", as the dozen test program I wrote toggles the pins on PortA, and the keyboard side of things appears to be working. I'm also pretty certain that my config word is right, particularly external oscillator, and watchdog timer is off. Anyone got one working? Or do I get to experience the joy's of reverse engineering the code? Thanks, David From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 8 08:28:05 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:28:05 -0700 Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308073248.04cdd8a0@mail> References: <0503060230.AA21045@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050306190244.S648@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050307071530.050bce20@mail> <38761.127.0.0.1.1110210406.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> <422D2863.304@mdrconsult.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308073248.04cdd8a0@mail> Message-ID: <422DB675.2050201@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 10:21 PM 3/7/2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Read 350 posts to a mailing list, in a well-configured mail client of your choice. >> Read 350 posts to any web forum. >> Go Google "therbligs". > > > You're on track... the most time-wasting thing is the distraction > of starting to look at other interesting sites, not the keystrokes > and mouse movements you carried out to do it. I don't think anyone's claimed speed of disposition as a criterion. Clock time and efficiency of interface are completely unrelated. > Therbligs. Interesting and relevant. Hadn't heard of them > before. Would love to see some charted, in color. Color itself > as a clue to whether two motions were dissonant! Wonderful! > > See my 2001 post below. However, in terms of time and motion, it > might be easier to scroll down (using your choice of interface) > rather than telling you to 'grep' your personal archive (and hoping > you hadn't pre-filtered and trashed the message) and assuming that > I can't simply include a hyperlink to it because this would > offend those on slower, non-WWW-capable computers. So far in this thread, you've not actually rebutted *anyone's* arguments in favor of mailing lists and have resorted to tangential irrelevancies and veiled insults. Since you also haven't named a single web forum or even a single feature of web fora as an example of their superior features, I have to assume you've conceded the whole point. Doc From CPUMECH at aol.com Tue Mar 8 08:39:35 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:39:35 EST Subject: ASR-33 Questions Message-ID: <100.ed0993a.2f5f1327@aol.com> I have a reader power supply for the 33, you can have it for $20 + shipping. Also have a copy holder that I'll throw in. As for running open in local mode, I'd start at the H lever especially after just being shipped, they seem to pop out. FYI, the H lever mechanically connects the keybd. to the printer. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 09:30:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:30:41 -0600 Subject: minor list changes Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308074026.04baf888@mail> At 08:21 PM 3/7/2005, Jim Brain wrote: >One can't help but wonder if the web forum thread is half-serious, half troll. >Especially considering the list makeup. I probably should feed the troll, >but the stereotyping thing seemed a bit overkill. Yes, not only am I trolling but I'm also playing the devil's advocate because I grow tired of the unending Windows bashing. (I'm plenty capable of that, too, have no fear.) It's not necessary for an enthusiasm for classic computers, so it's off-topic and flame-baiting. But I began to suspect that the bashing was often, at root, bashing against today's entire computer environment: anti-web, anti-GUI, anti-high-bandwidth. Why is it necessary to say that today's technology is bad just to affirm that yesterday's is/was good? At 07:17 PM 3/7/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> There's also a persistent geek belief-system where, once they >> believe a device is technologically superior, they think it >> should be popular and all those who believe otherwise are idiots. > >The irony is, one person here seems to have precisely that perspective >when it comes to web forums. I wonder who that is. Hmm. For the record, I rarely consult the web version of this list. My earliest message from it is dated November 1997, and all my archives of it are in 'mbox' format. >> To wit, I'll summarize some of the savvy arguments posted so far against >> web-based forums: Web sites are slow. Not all browsers can use them. >> [...] > >And these are bad arguments why? Are these reasons somehow unjustified? >Especially things like connect charges, software incompatibilities, ... For a group (there I go, stereotyping and lumping again to create a Them) that's technologically adept and eager to invest immense amounts of time and energy and even money in obscure archaic technologies, you'd think They'd be wise enough to recognize that today's Web users and developers face exactly the same issues we faced 30 years ago, and they're just as capable of addressing and solving them in their own way, driven by their perceived needs. Surely there are assumptions to be questioned. To wit, a web user is less concerned about hoarding precious ASCII files. They assume the connection will always be "on". They have no need to 'grep' a local copy because they assume it'll still be Out There somewhere. They don't need to 'grep' a local copy because the web site has an index or search engine or they can rely on Google. If it's valuable enough, it'll be mirrored. If they really want an offline copy, they can make it, but it'll be in HTML, and they know how to cut-and-paste to ASCII if they need it. If you want to edit in your favorite editor, just cut-and-paste. BFD. I bop between web, Windows, Mac, Linux and DOS all day long. At 07:03 PM 3/7/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >Well I cetainly can't do any of those. I have never been offered a PC >faster than a 286. I certainly can't afford broadband. I don't know your circumstances. You're in the UK. I suspect broadband is available your area for about $30 a month. If time is worth anything to you, it'll be worth it compared to dial-up. What do you pay for dial-up? Around here in East Bumblefrick USA, clients are begging me to haul away their old 600 Mhz PCs as well as any previous generations. You find them on the curb. Are you truly not using a web browser, ever? >And I don't mind >admitting I am not clever enough to repair modern PCs, I don't have a BGA >rework station You're trying too hard. See above for a source of a new PC. >I much prefer mailing lists to web fora. I prefer large-format film >cameras to digital cameras. And so on. I just picked up a gorgeous Leitz Focomat IIc enlarger for $300, I'm debating whether to keep it or eBay it and get ~$3000. At 10:39 PM 3/7/2005, der Mouse wrote: >I don't dislike reverse video because it's New and Modern; I dislike it >because I've used it and find it significantly more tiring to my eyes >(when used for any significant length of time - reverse video *is* >easier to read for very brief stuff, say a line or two, but gets very >wearing for much more than that, at least on self-luminant displays). Footnote for future-kids reading this in the archives: Note that 'der Mouse' refers to "reverse video" and means "illuminated glyphs on a dark phosphor background" although at this point in history, the vast majority of Web-using computerists considered that mode to be "reverse video" because web and GUI interfaces typically drew non-illuminated glyphs on lighter backgrounds. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 8 09:38:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:38:50 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Why bother? The origianl SGI stuff is going for almost nothing on E-bay. Joe At 09:21 AM 3/8/05 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of >the following page? > >http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm > > >I'm having a devil of a time getting the mouse portion of things to >work. > >When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no >data being received from the mouse. > >I'm wondering if the mouse init code is not liking any of the PS/2 mice >I've got around. (I've tried 4 different ones.) > >If you've got one working, what sort of mouse do you have? > >I freely admit, I'm not a PIC expert, as this is my first project w/ >them. :-> So any clue's anyone cares to beat me about the head and >shoulders w/ will be appreciated. > >I do know the PIC's are "running", as the dozen test program I wrote >toggles the pins on PortA, and the keyboard side of things appears to be >working. I'm also pretty certain that my config word is right, >particularly external oscillator, and watchdog timer is off. > >Anyone got one working? Or do I get to experience the joy's of reverse >engineering the code? > >Thanks, > >David > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 09:41:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:41:38 +0000 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <1110296498.373.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:21 -0500, David Holland wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of > the following page? No, but I've seen that page before - lack of a PIC programmer has stopped me building one (or two). We've got a 4D/25 and two Indigos, but only one SGI keyboard between the three... > When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no > data being received from the mouse. Obvious one: have you checked that the mouse is getting power? I don't actually know whether the PIC is supposed to generate the mouse clock or whether the mouse does though... if the former then you'd presumably see something on the clock line if the PIC was running. Looking at the schematic, how the heck do PICs reset at power-on? Presumably it's internal - I'm suprised reset isn't under user control on one of the pins though... cheers Jules From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Mar 8 09:51:21 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:51:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Joe has obviously never attempted to find an Indigo keyboard on eBay! :P I ended up buying one of these convertors because the keyboards either don't come up, or they go for some $60 :P On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Why bother? The origianl SGI stuff is going for almost nothing on E-bay. > > Joe > > > At 09:21 AM 3/8/05 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of > >the following page? > > > >http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm > > > > > >I'm having a devil of a time getting the mouse portion of things to > >work. > > > >When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no > >data being received from the mouse. > > > >I'm wondering if the mouse init code is not liking any of the PS/2 mice > >I've got around. (I've tried 4 different ones.) > > > >If you've got one working, what sort of mouse do you have? > > > >I freely admit, I'm not a PIC expert, as this is my first project w/ > >them. :-> So any clue's anyone cares to beat me about the head and > >shoulders w/ will be appreciated. > > > >I do know the PIC's are "running", as the dozen test program I wrote > >toggles the pins on PortA, and the keyboard side of things appears to be > >working. I'm also pretty certain that my config word is right, > >particularly external oscillator, and watchdog timer is off. > > > >Anyone got one working? Or do I get to experience the joy's of reverse > >engineering the code? > > > >Thanks, > > > >David > > > > > > > > From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 8 09:57:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:57:14 -0600 Subject: Can't read CP/M disks on PC References: <20050308105047.GB16815@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <005201c523f7$82f36290$dc3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "David Cantrell" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:50 AM > On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 08:56:35AM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >> So now that I've got the 8" drive running well on the PC, I am trying to >> read 8" CP/M disks. 22Disk is giving me sector not found errors >> (cylinder 2, side 0, sector 1) and the DOS CP/M tools are giving me >> "Unknown floppy disk format", even on disks that read fine on my NEC APC. >> >> I tried reading in a sector using debug but I also get read errors. > > What happens when you try to read cylinder 0 side 0 sector 1? Same > errors? Try all the other possible sector numbers - CP/M disk formats > often use crazy sector numbers. > > -- > David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david > > When one has bathed in Christ there is no need to bathe a second time > -- St. Jerome, on why washing is a vile pagan practice Anadisk can tell you a lot but it is possible he is trying to read FM data on an MFM only controller. Randy From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 8 10:03:01 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:03:01 -0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503081115.j28BFGfg021407@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > "vrs" wrote: > > > >Hope that helps. (If you want I can just send you an Eagle CAD file for an > >Omnibus card outline with edge connectors, and you can hack on it to make an > >extended length hex card outline.) > > please do! OK, you are the second to ask for this, so I put it up at http://mysite.verizon.net/res1ac3j/id15.html Let me know if there are any serious issues with it. I already know that there are some dimensions that are within spec., but not exact. (For example, the second edge connector is supposed to be at 2.85"+/-.010, and mine's at 2.852.) Feel free to ignore the weird stuff that is also in there (chip pinouts, etc.). Hope it helps! Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 8 10:17:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:17:41 -0700 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308071452.04db8650@mail> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> <1110284533.390.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308071452.04db8650@mail> Message-ID: <422DD025.3040704@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: >Yes, I left that part out. You need water, too, to make the >bamboo and sand computer. Gravity and sand alone don't move >far and fast enough. Water, sand and gravity - whew, that >could double the clock speed from 0.0002 Hz! Ah, but I see >a snarky hand reaching up, asking "Why do you need the sand >at all?" and I say "Persistence of memory!" > > > For the clock of course ... the .0001 hz hourglass has to flip correctly. >- John > > > Ben alias woodelf From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 8 10:26:05 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:26:05 -0500 Subject: OT:techology Message-ID: <2dd634d2dd895f.2dd895f2dd634d@optonline.net> > For the clock of course ... the .0001 hz hourglass has to flip > correctly. > >- John Might be better if we refer to the clock speed in kCpy [Kilo-Cycles per Hr] = (approx) 3.15576 kCpy! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 10:30:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:30:11 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:38:50 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > Why bother? The origianl SGI stuff is going for almost nothing on E-bay. Even if they are, I can think of one reason - sticking SGI equipment off of a KVM. -ethan P.S. - sorry I can't help with the original question. I don't have any SGI gear and haven't tried making my own adapter. From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Tue Mar 8 10:34:09 2005 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:34:09 +0000 Subject: VAX 4000/705A Message-ID: <200503081634.09329.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Am I right in assuming that a VAX 4000/705A can only contain one CPU? Thanks for the help, Mark -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd Filetravel (8154) Ltd From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Tue Mar 8 10:41:21 2005 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 06:41:21 -1000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> Message-ID: <1110300081.4938.217839680@webmail.messagingengine.com> Yes, there was such a format for a brief period of time. This format was pioneered by Dysan (are they even around anymore?). It came out in 1983 (same as the Sony 3.5" and the Hitachi 3"), but never took off. As far as I know, there was no computer that ever used this format. However, Apple was considering using it for the Macintosh, but (thankfully for us) saw the light of day & decided to use the Sony 3.5" (they must have had bad memories over the "Twiggy" debacle!). If you're looking for technical data (tracks/sectors, formatted free space, etc.), try a search engine (search.com). On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 04:04:15 -0500, "Gene Ehrich" said: > I received the following from a friend in California. > Can anyone here help answer the question? > Thanx in advance > > ===================================== > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never > have, > but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and > a > 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know > anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? David M. Vohs Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. "Scout": Otrona Attache. (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II. "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + "Centaur": Commodore Amiga 2000. "Neon": Zenith Minisport. From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 8 10:43:44 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:43:44 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard References: Message-ID: <01d601c523fd$fefcb700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> On the topic of matrix conversions... Going from one device matrix to a controller expecting another is something like converting one set of 24 lines to another 24. To do it in PIC's would take two, unless there were such things as matrix to serial encoders and decoder chips. Anybody make them? John A. From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 8 10:27:39 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:27:39 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail Message-ID: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, I know that this one has probably been covered countless times before and has been shot down but I am new to the list and have not seen this discussion before so please hold back your flame ;) I understand the trouble of unreliable mail servers, I have been afflicted with this problem myself recently, so why not look at a technology that was specifically designed to fill this job. We could set up a private news server using INN. This way we could even divide the chat up into appropriate groups i.e. ccmp.offtopic, ccmp.dec.pdp8 etc etc so that people who are just interested in a niche collection don't have to bother with all the talk of other classic computers. However people also still have the option of reading everything on the list I also understand that one of the main attractions to this list is that it is subscription based which I guess keeps a lot of the spam from reaching it. However NNTP does support authentication. We could have a web interface similar to the one that we have at the moment that allows read-only access to the groups so that other people can search them. But we also could limit posting only to people with logons. From what I have read I also see that people like the mailing list approach because it allows them to connect to the internet for a short amount of time and collect all of their email and read it later. I know of many NNTP readers that allow offline viewing via synchronization. This means that people who move about a lot can view over the web if they want but it also keeps the people who use their ASR33's happy because NNTP is a clean protocol. (By clean I mean that it has not been infected with HTML). just my $0.02 Regards - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCLdJ8xsNEmi5WofsRAlTNAKC4O/xYRlc/4DDDKEGLR66nT7yCsgCeMSG8 VX7DM3VgCHU9Op8u4NjTicE= =S/1B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 11:04:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:04:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Gene Ehrich wrote: > I received the following from a friend in California. > Can anyone here help answer the question? > Thanx in advance > > ===================================== > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, > but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and a > 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know > anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? Yes, they exist(ed). Fred Cisin certainly has more details. I think I might have one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 11:06:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:06:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > gates. I think you'd have better luck lighting a fire with the bamboo and smelting the sand to make silicon and go straight for IC technology. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 8 11:28:36 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0600 Subject: Three books added to collection Message-ID: <013601c52404$44607b50$40406b43@66067007> Got these in the mail the other day a copy of TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster, the Cheap Video cookbook by Don Lancaster, and a digital VT1200 - Installing and Using The VT1200 Video Terminal manual. I believe that I have other copies of the both the Don Lancaster books down in storage someplace. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 8 11:38:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Questions Message-ID: <200503081738.JAA21699@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "O. Sharp" ---snip--- >> >Thanks for the excellent suggestions regarding likely mechanical causes >for the chatter on Local. I'll be walking through the machine with them >tomorrow, and hopefully they'll solve the current problem. Then I can look >to see if there are more exotic problems. :) > Hi You can try holding the armature of the selector coil with a small screw driver. This will tell you if it is a mechanical or electrical problem. If held, and you start the power, all should lock-up. If it doesn't, it is a mechanical issue. If it does, you have a break in the electrical circuit someplace. Be careful not to damage things near the coil. An orange stick would be safer than a regular screw driver but I've always just used a small screw driver. You can see the selector clutch on the left side of the machine. This is the clutch that starts everything. If you are uncomfortable with powering on with your screw driver in there, you can just spin things manually. Just turn the fan on the motor. As each clutch releases, squeeze it to completely release it or it will drag. When the motor is running there is enough inertia to completely release it but when running by hand, it needs to be done by the additional squeeze. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 11:42:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:42:35 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> Message-ID: <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 16:27 +0000, Chris Blackburn wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi all, > > I know that this one has probably been covered countless times before > and has been shot down Actually, I don't think I've seen it - mind you I missed the period of time when the list was split, so maybe it got talked about then. > We could set up a private news server using INN. How well do most newsreaders cope with multiple servers though? That'd be my main gripe, having to select different servers depending on what I wanted to read / pull down to local disk for archival. I have no idea how load on an NNTP server compares to load on an SMTP server. It's maybe more spread out with NNTP? Interesting question though - I can't really think of any downsides other than: 1) Multiple server issues mentioned above 2) The mailing list works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it etc. - given the amount of time / money / resources that Jay's put into the list, I expect there'd have to be a big incentive to change. I'm not sure what NNTP would give you over and above what the mailing list already does? 3) Some people don't have NNTP access. Seriously. I've seen braindead companies who don't consider usenet to be a good resource and block the port at the firewall (despite usenet being IME a quicker way of getting a resolution to a specific problem than the web) cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 11:44:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:44:12 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:06 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > > gates. > > I think you'd have better luck lighting a fire with the bamboo and > smelting the sand to make silicon and go straight for IC technology. Can you make batteries from bamboo though? From classiccmp at crash.com Tue Mar 8 11:45:16 2005 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:45:16 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: References: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1110303916.6010.16.camel@abort.crash.com> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 11:30 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Even if they are, I can think of one reason - sticking SGI equipment > off of a KVM. Cybex, now Avocent, used to have a "workstation" card you could put into one of their slot-based KVMs like the Autoboot Commander 4XP. With the right cables it would connect a DEC, Sun, SGI, workstation into the KVM. These are an older line of products, but they are widely deployed in large datacenters, so these cable sets might still be available new from Avocent. I used one of these with three PC cards in the four slot Commander 1XP I bought in the mid-90s. The cables won't be cheap, but they'd do what you need. OTOH I've seen a fair bit of Cybex/Avocent stuff fly by on eBay over the years. Side note, doesn't help with SGIs, but the newer line of Cybex Autoview KVMs will take a Sun keyboard/mouse for input. This lets me use a Type 5c on my commodity PC desktops - actually, I use it with a PS/2 mouse. I'm using the Autoview 400 model, if anyone's curious. FYI, --Steve. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:52:01 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:52:01 +0800 Subject: Three books added to collection In-Reply-To: <013601c52404$44607b50$40406b43@66067007> References: <013601c52404$44607b50$40406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0600, Keys wrote: > Got these in the mail the other day a copy of TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don > Lancaster, the Cheap Video cookbook by Don Lancaster, and a digital VT1200 - > Installing and Using The VT1200 Video Terminal manual. I believe that I > have other copies of the both the Don Lancaster books down in storage > someplace. > > Any chance of these getting into bitsavers? /wai-sun From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Mar 8 11:46:38 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:46:38 -0500 (est) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 8, 05 05:44:12 pm Message-ID: <200503081746.MAA28982@wordstock.com> And thusly Jules Richardson spake: > > > I think you'd have better luck lighting a fire with the bamboo and > > smelting the sand to make silicon and go straight for IC technology. > > Can you make batteries from bamboo though? If you are The Professor. :) Ahoy!, Bryan Pope From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:58:16 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:58:16 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > > I know that this one has probably been covered countless times before > > and has been shot down > 3) Some people don't have NNTP access. Seriously. I've seen braindead > companies who don't consider usenet to be a good resource and block the > port at the firewall (despite usenet being IME a quicker way of getting I have to, unfortunately, agree with 3), except I would have to change "some" to "many". It's not only the company you might work for, but some I(dis)SP's actually block NNTP. I assume it has something to do with usenet, along with IRC, being part of the so-called "seamy underbelly" of the InTarWeb. Nevermind the fact that places without inane bureaucratic restrictions are where the actual work gets done. -dhbarr. From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 8 11:59:04 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:59:04 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3f581fd384a3cc7b1d9321bf178e92ca@softhome.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8 Mar 2005, at 17:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting question though - I can't really think of any downsides > other than: > > 1) Multiple server issues mentioned above All the email/news clients I have used support it, these include 1) Microsoft Lookout (express) 2) Mozilla Mail 3) Mozilla Thunderbird > > 2) The mailing list works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it etc. - given > the amount of time / money / resources that Jay's put into the list, I > expect there'd have to be a big incentive to change. I'm not sure what > NNTP would give you over and above what the mailing list already does? > I sort of see your point here, but I would be willing to put some effort in if it helps. One of the main advantages I can think of is that we can build some redundancy into the system. We could use Usenet style peering so that there could be multiple servers online and if one has to go down for maintenance then the others would still be available > 3) Some people don't have NNTP access. Seriously. I've seen braindead > companies who don't consider usenet to be a good resource and block the > port at the firewall (despite usenet being IME a quicker way of getting > a resolution to a specific problem than the web) I truly hadn't thought of this one. If it is a problem then we can tell INN to run on a nonstandard (and usually available) port and tell people to set up their news clients appropriately. Regards - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCLefoxsNEmi5WofsRAlqZAKD4G6h53eWCiRNiM0PPeeZnIxGXbACfSEuO xytz5Z9G7CfUpKWEQrfAKMA= =Psee -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 12:00:12 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:00:12 -0600 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > > > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > > > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > > > gates. > > I think you'd have better luck lighting a fire with the bamboo and > > smelting the sand to make silicon and go straight for IC technology. > Can you make batteries from bamboo though? Sure, I don't see why a salt or fruit based series of batteries would be out of the question. Remember the potato-based webserver? What do you -mean- I missed the point? -dhbarr. From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 8 12:13:28 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:13:28 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <0042e971a43842b86ba18151d384cd10@softhome.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8 Mar 2005, at 11:47, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct > sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the > 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with windows blacked out'. > > When will that be...? > > Talk to me goose. They already exist :). It's just that they are monochromatic and generally of a low resolution and EXTREMELY expensive. I think they are called dichroic. They were used extensively by the US military in the 1980's Regards - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCLetJxsNEmi5WofsRAlj9AKCxW/vegh7r1Hs5Wk4i8CfsF18MbACffiUo hkIscwDR7oF+DPzjKPRWyBI= =IvvY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Mar 8 12:14:55 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:14:55 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> At 16:27 08/03/2005, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi all, > >I know that this one has probably been covered countless times before and >has been shot down but I am new to the list and have not seen this >discussion before so please hold back your flame ;) With an e-mail archive, you could scan back into the past to see if the debate's been covered before.... (well, I would do, but my archive past last year is currently ZIPped & I CBA unzipping it to take a look). >just my $0.02 IMHO: NNTP is a great protocol, and has a real use. Personally, I happen to think it's NOT ideal for this list, but I should stress that's just my opinion. In defence of e-mail I shall make only one point, & let others do as they wish... Personally, I *like* having all the messages commingled in one place. There's a number of times when I've clicked into a message I never thought I'd be interested in, & ended up following the whole discussion & been fascinated by it. An NNTP setup with separated subject areas would make it more difficult to "dip in" like that. OK, 2 points (I know, Spanish Inquisition). Every NNTP client I've used has deleted old posts after a certain period of time... An NNTP post is for a few weeks, an e-mail is forever... Cheers, Ade. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 8 12:21:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:21:18 -0500 Subject: Ontopic once again... (was: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308131748.03a95178@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mark Wickens may have mentioned these words: >I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct >sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the >'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with windows blacked out'. > >When will that be...? Uh, maybe someplace around 20+ years ago -- the displays on my Tandy Model 100's and 200's are perfectly readable in full sun. In the dark, however... bring a flashlight. They are not backlit. >Talk to me goose. AFLAC! (Oh, wait, that's a duck. ;-) Whew! Finally got caught up after 3 days with no net access... boy, my dialup (all _I_ currently have available) sure felt good to get back to! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 8 12:27:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone going to VCFe6 from California? Message-ID: <200503081827.KAA21744@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Is anyone going to VCFe6, this spring, from northern California? I'm looking for someone that might be able to bring a box of paper tapes back for me from a fellow in Germany. Dwight From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 8 12:37:35 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:37:35 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050308103850.00a3eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1110307055.9482.26.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> One reason: Learning experience. I can now say I've dinked w/ Eagle, designed, and etched my own PCB boards, played around w/ PIC's, and I've now got a PIC programmer should I feel the urge to play w/ them again. I've also got a deskside Crimson, I should theoretically be able to use the adapter with. (With the appropriate cable adapter of course.) I suppose I could of wired up an adapter for my Crimson keyboard to work w/ the Indigo, but then I'd still not have the challenge of building the things myself. (That and the Crimson's mouse is a optical jobby that's in pretty rough shape, barely usable, and in dire need of replacement.) David On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 10:38 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > Why bother? The origianl SGI stuff is going for almost nothing on E-bay. > > Joe > > > At 09:21 AM 3/8/05 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of > >the following page? > > > >http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm > > > > > >I'm having a devil of a time getting the mouse portion of things to > >work. > > > >When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no > >data being received from the mouse. > > > >I'm wondering if the mouse init code is not liking any of the PS/2 mice > >I've got around. (I've tried 4 different ones.) > > > >If you've got one working, what sort of mouse do you have? > > > >I freely admit, I'm not a PIC expert, as this is my first project w/ > >them. :-> So any clue's anyone cares to beat me about the head and > >shoulders w/ will be appreciated. > > > >I do know the PIC's are "running", as the dozen test program I wrote > >toggles the pins on PortA, and the keyboard side of things appears to be > >working. I'm also pretty certain that my config word is right, > >particularly external oscillator, and watchdog timer is off. > > > >Anyone got one working? Or do I get to experience the joy's of reverse > >engineering the code? > > > >Thanks, > > > >David > > > > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 8 12:50:28 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:50:28 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000/705A In-Reply-To: <200503081634.09329.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <001901c5240f$b3c72790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Mark Wickens wrote: > Am I right in assuming that a VAX 4000/705A can only contain > one CPU? Yes - just the one in all VAX 4000s. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Mar 8 12:54:15 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:54:15 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 processor schematics In-Reply-To: <021b01c52373$62525020$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001a01c52410$3b018840$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jim Beacon wrote: > a few days ago, I found a set of schematics for an 11/45 > processor (KB11), I think on the site of someone on this list. > > Like an idiot, I didn't bookmark them, and now I can't find > them :-( > > Can anyone help - they were in TIF format. Manx knows about several: http://vt100.net/manx Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 8 12:54:39 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:54:39 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> Message-ID: <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Adrian Vickers" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:14 PM > At 16:27 08/03/2005, you wrote: > NNTP is a great protocol, and has a real use. Personally, I happen to > think it's NOT ideal for this list, but I should stress that's just my > opinion. > > In defence of e-mail I shall make only one point, & let others do as they > wish... Personally, I *like* having all the messages commingled in one > place. There's a number of times when I've clicked into a message I never > thought I'd be interested in, & ended up following the whole discussion & > been fascinated by it. An NNTP setup with separated subject areas would > make it more difficult to "dip in" like that. > > OK, 2 points (I know, Spanish Inquisition). Every NNTP client I've used > has deleted old posts after a certain period of time... An NNTP post is > for a few weeks, an e-mail is forever... > > > Cheers, > Ade. NNTP is a great fit for this list. An email is forever if your server lets you keep a large enough back-log or if you download it to your machine and it never ever fails (who ever hear of a computer having trouble anyway). NNTP is forever through people like google groups. The true problems with NNTP are: not everyone has access to Usenet will and those that do would have to talk their Usenet provider into including it. I love NNTP and have several groups I follow on it. I see no practical way to switch to Usenet. The list works, it may not be perfect but my favorite answer to perfection is: There was only one perfect person I ever heard of and they crucified him. Randy From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 8 12:55:40 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:55:40 -0500 Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters In-Reply-To: <1110296498.373.29.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1110291685.9482.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <1110296498.373.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1110308140.9482.40.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 15:41 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:21 -0500, David Holland wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Has anyone successfully built one of the PS/2 -> Indigo adapters off of > > the following page? > > No, but I've seen that page before - lack of a PIC programmer has > stopped me building one (or two). We've got a 4D/25 and two Indigos, but > only one SGI keyboard between the three... I built this thing: http://www.bobblick.com/techref/projects/picprog/picprog.html Component cost is pretty low, and the propic2 software off that page (while Windows based) programs the 16F628's well enough. (Verify doesn't work however. - Just read the device, and eyeball it.) > > > When I hook my scope up to the clock and/or data PS/2 lines, I see no > > data being received from the mouse. > > Obvious one: have you checked that the mouse is getting power? Yup. Mouse is getting power. One of the first things I verified. > > I don't actually know whether the PIC is supposed to generate the mouse > clock or whether the mouse does though... if the former then you'd > presumably see something on the clock line if the PIC was running. According to the data I found on the PS/2 spec, it depends. If the mouse is talking, it twiddles the clock line. If the "host" is talking, it twiddles the clock line. I _think_ I see a little initialization data pass down the line, to the mouse, when I first power up the device, but my o'scope isn't a memory type, so it might just be power up noise. Hence my suspicion that it might be a initialization issue. > > Looking at the schematic, how the heck do PICs reset at power-on? Internal reset @ power-on circuitry. You also need to tie ~MCLR to VDD via a resistor. (Which is an error in the schematic. - And my PIC's wouldn't "run" till I did so.) I used a couple of 4.7K, as it was what I had lying around. > Presumably it's internal - I'm suprised reset isn't under user control > on one of the pins though... If I understand the datasheet, its a function of ~MCLR, and the config bits, and if you were to drop it to ground, it'd reset the device. > > cheers > > Jules > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:00:22 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:00:22 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200503081900.j28J0coY087816@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Beacon > Sent: 08 March 2005 00:57 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions > > Well if I ever manage to talk the Boss into letting me have > the 11/84 with its pair of RL02's that's lurking in the > corner at work, you can bring them the 20 or so miles to Chesham! Chesham Bucks? I'm not that far away from there every wednesday so if it happens and you get the machine I might take you up on that if I haven't got it going here first. > I'd offer the use of the 11/45, but that would rely on me > getting the controller cards from the 11/84........... > > Drives aren't a poblem, but controllers are! ah....always the case isn't it :-\ a/w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:03:59 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:03:59 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503081904.j28J4D1A087891@dewey.classiccmp.org> Sellam writ: > So this brings up another question: I've noticed that I don't > explicitly need to LOAD device drivers for the devices I want > to use when I boot RT-11. In particular, I don't need to > LOAD DD when I want to use the TU58 simulator. Are they > found and loaded automatically when the OS boots, or...? >From what I remember you can build the sysgen with the drivers you know will be there at boot time but could still load them yourself afterwards if needed. Must drag the micro73 down here this week and see if my RL02s are playing nice..... cheers a/w From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:18:48 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:18:48 -0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> Message-ID: <008201c52413$a8bf1200$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? > I received the following from a friend in California. > Can anyone here help answer the question? > Thanx in advance > > ===================================== > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, > but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and a > 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know > anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 13:14:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:14:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:06 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > > > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > > > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > > > gates. > > > > I think you'd have better luck lighting a fire with the bamboo and > > smelting the sand to make silicon and go straight for IC technology. > > Can you make batteries from bamboo though? Coconuts (I learned that trick from Gilligan's Island). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 8 13:34:54 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:34:54 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8 Mar 2005, at 18:54, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I love NNTP and have several groups I follow on it. I see no > practical way to switch to Usenet. The list works, it may not be > perfect but my favorite answer to perfection is: no no no no we are ABSOLUTELY NOT talking about moving to usenet. that would be TERRIBLE. I am talking about setting up a separate private news server with just the classic comp lists on it. - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCLf5fxsNEmi5WofsRArX2AKCic/bC2nzt43Nn08rkD0+KuWDoCgCdGKiO mEuJa0VjFCz8wS1hmX7l10g= =3FIY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 8 13:32:40 2005 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:32:40 -0800 Subject: Bamboo computer Message-ID: <8e338f6f754ddc8cb930842cadc2c8d5@sbcglobal.net> Not that it couldn't be taken care of.. Bamboo has "partitions" every foot to 6", you'd have to split it, cut out the partitions, and tie it back together. If the desert island has vines you could make a rope computer, as described in a Scientific American, I don't remember the issue. From cblackburn36 at softhome.net Tue Mar 8 13:37:10 2005 From: cblackburn36 at softhome.net (Chris Blackburn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:37:10 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 8 Mar 2005, at 18:14, Adrian Vickers wrote: > OK, 2 points (I know, Spanish Inquisition). Every NNTP client I've > used has deleted old posts after a certain period of time... An NNTP > post is for a few weeks, an e-mail is forever... It is all about configuration. I could configure my mail client to delete all messages that are over 2 months old, however it is the default that all mail messages are kept. I can just as easily tell my news reader to ignore it's default setting and keep messages forever and/or copy them to a separate local archive folder so I can look back whenever I want. - -- Chris Blackburn E-Mail: cblackburn36NOSPAM at softhome.net E-Mail: cblackburn36 at NOSPAMgmail.com PGP Public Key: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C2AF31929 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFCLf7nxsNEmi5WofsRAvUoAKCbQSd6aU1IaUpSRv/0TD0n1fgqWwCfYlm+ AKuvPHgI72CCYoV3/eXbeso= =vgpH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Mar 8 13:38:48 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:38:48 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308192855.03b9eec0@slave> At 18:54 08/03/2005, you wrote: >From: "Adrian Vickers" >Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:14 PM >>At 16:27 08/03/2005, you wrote: > >>NNTP is a great protocol, and has a real use. Personally, I happen to >>think it's NOT ideal for this list, but I should stress that's just my opinion. >> >>In defence of e-mail I shall make only one point, & let others do as they >>wish... Personally, I *like* having all the messages commingled in one >>place. There's a number of times when I've clicked into a message I never >>thought I'd be interested in, & ended up following the whole discussion & >>been fascinated by it. An NNTP setup with separated subject areas would >>make it more difficult to "dip in" like that. >> >>OK, 2 points (I know, Spanish Inquisition). Every NNTP client I've used >>has deleted old posts after a certain period of time... An NNTP post is >>for a few weeks, an e-mail is forever... > >NNTP is a great fit for this list. > >An email is forever if your server lets you keep a large enough back-log >or if you download it to your machine and it never ever fails (who ever >hear of a computer having trouble anyway). Well, touch wood - I've lost very few (if any) e-mails since 1996, when I first got connected to the Internet. Proper backups are the key, something too many people have forgotten these days, now that hardware is reliable[1]. >NNTP is forever through people like google groups. You can't rely on that, though, because: 1/ It's hosted on a remote server as a "free" service which could be removed (or made subs-only) at any time 2/ You can avoid having posts stored by setting the header "X-No-Archive: Yes" 3/ The search mechanism is dire >The true problems with NNTP are: not everyone has access to Usenet will >and those that do would have to talk their Usenet provider into including it. > >I love NNTP and have several groups I follow on it. I see no practical >way to switch to Usenet. The list works, it may not be perfect Agreed: The list is far from perfect. IMHO, it's better than Usenet. Another reason: I can receive list items on my 'phone while travelling[2] around the UK's rail network[3], which I couldn't do via Usenet, as I don't know of a suitable NNTP client for my Phone (which I won't mention here, as it's less than 10 years old). Cheers, Ade. [1] Not 100% reliable, but a hell of a lot more reliable than it used to be. Thing is, though, what's the loss of a 10mb disk pack which is backed up daily to tape, compared to a 200gig disk drive which was probably never backed up as the tape h/w required to do 200 gig is immensely expensive... [2] I say "travelling". This usually means waiting on a station for yet another delayed or cancelled train. [3] I use the word "network" in a sort of thin-Ethernet kind of way: One little isolated problem and the whole damn lot goes down. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 8 13:41:56 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:41:56 -0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <008201c52413$a8bf1200$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200503081942.j28JfxH7088500@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Beacon > Sent: 08 March 2005 19:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: three and a quarter inch floppy? > > 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing > machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? They were (I think Hitachi) 3" drives that were going to be 'the next big thing'. The likes of Amscrap, Sinclair and Tatung used them probably because the 'new' sony drive was more expensive. Double sided disks were used to give 160k per side, you had to turn the disk over to get at the other side. Most of the amstrad machines on my website feature the 3" drive but I've just checked and most of the pictures of the drive itself are pretty poor to say the least! I've got a PCW series machine downstairs if anyone wants pictures but they're found all over the web :) cheers a/w From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 13:47:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503081904.j28J4D1A087891@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > Sellam writ: > > > So this brings up another question: I've noticed that I don't > > explicitly need to LOAD device drivers for the devices I want > > to use when I boot RT-11. In particular, I don't need to > > LOAD DD when I want to use the TU58 simulator. Are they > > found and loaded automatically when the OS boots, or...? > > From what I remember you can build the sysgen with the drivers you know will > be there at boot time but could still load them yourself afterwards if > needed. Must drag the micro73 down here this week and see if my RL02s are > playing nice..... But I never did a sysgen, assuming that is an actual process. I just formatted/initialized my disk, issued the right COPY commands to copy over system files and boot monitors, etc. When I boot with that disk the DD drivers are already loaded. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 14:01:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:01:37 +0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <200503081942.j28JfxH7088500@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503081942.j28JfxH7088500@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1110312097.1005.28.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 19:41 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > > 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing > > machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? > > They were (I think Hitachi) 3" drives that were going to be 'the next big > thing'. Yep, I remember them being 3" too. I hate to think how many drive belts I've replaced on them when I worked for a repair place many years ago. J. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 8 14:11:53 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:11:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Mar 08, 2005 11:47:45 AM Message-ID: <200503082011.j28KBri1005538@onyx.spiritone.com> > But I never did a sysgen, assuming that is an actual process. I just > formatted/initialized my disk, issued the right COPY commands to copy over > system files and boot monitors, etc. When I boot with that disk the DD > drivers are already loaded. The Monitor you're using was Sysgen'd to load those drivers automatically. You could probably free up a little memory by doing a Sysgen that just includes the drivers you need. Zane From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 14:12:32 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:12:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PS/2 -> Indigo adapters Message-ID: <20050308201232.18536.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I _think_ I see a little initialization data pass down the > line, to the mouse, when I first power up the device, but > my o'scope isn't a memory type, so it might just be power > up noise. If you repeatedly pulse the MCLR pin you can repeat the reset sequence often enough to view it on the scope. If it is power up noise it may be confusing the mouse enough to stop it working. Lee . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 8 14:15:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:15:23 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308192855.03b9eec0@slave> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308192855.03b9eec0@slave> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308141312.04e00d08@mail> At 01:38 PM 3/8/2005, Adrian Vickers wrote: >Well, touch wood - I've lost very few (if any) e-mails since 1996, when I first got connected to the Internet. Proper backups are the key, something too many people have forgotten these days, now that hardware is reliable[1]. Yes, but does anyone here actually save every message? I delete everything that's not of interest to me in the present. This doesn't help me for the future, though, so chances are slim I'd be able to search my personal archives for references to a previously unknown device. And speaking of backup, is it relevant to this discussion to know exactly how the mailing list archives are backed-up and/or mirrored? - John From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 8 14:32:05 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:32:05 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:03:01 PST." <0fda01c523f8$4ec322c0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> "vrs" wrote: > >http://mysite.verizon.net/res1ac3j/id15.html very nice, thanks. It took me 10 minutes to figure out that was an *eagle* .lbr file :-) (I know you said that but for some reason I got gEDA stuck in my head) I'm curious what the holes on the top of the board are for - I have about 10 metal hex-width "stiffeners" with extractors I was given by a guy who made unibus memory boards - I've yet to measure the holes on those. I assume they end up some how pop-riveted to the board but how one fastens them I'm not sure. I've only used pop-rivets on cars and I don't think I want to use the same style fasteners on a PCB. Maybe nylon screws & nuts with some loctite, and trim the excess threads. Are some sort of plastic handles available? Any thoughts? I want a "spec" paper drawing with dimensions from the books and then verify it with a selection of unibus cards I have. Have you made a PCB with the hex width card model? -brad From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 8 14:33:29 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:33:29 -0500 Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> It's nutjob-expensive, if you ask me - but the guy's 2 - one he's epaying alone ($50 USD opening bid, BIN for $75) and he's got another complete machine with the BASIC ROM in it for $115 BIN, IIRC. No bids on either one... should I snag the ROM to make backups of it? :-O Will another chance come along like this at all??? Anyone wanna go in with me on it? *I gotz the Eproms...* Lemme know! "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From cb at mythtech.net Tue Mar 8 14:38:26 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:38:26 -0500 Subject: NNTP instead of mail Message-ID: >Yes, but does anyone here actually save every message? I delete >everything that's not of interest to me in the present. This doesn't >help me for the future, though, so chances are slim I'd be able to >search my personal archives for references to a previously unknown device. I'm actually amazed how many people DO save every email. In fact, most of the people I work with, not only save every email, but also never move them from their inbox. They just have these huge, multi-megabyte inbox files (they would be multi-gigabyte, but I have everyone save for 1 person and myself set to use Eudora, which IMO properly handles attachments by detaching them from the email when it is received... so you don't end up with every last 20 MB attachment filling up your email database). And then you have my wife, that knows how to delete, and knows how to file messages... and still has some OCD issue with saving every email that isn't spam. (I'm the opposite... I throw out just about every email I get... if it isn't important to my life in some way, it gets junked as soon as I am done with it). -chris From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 8 14:45:51 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050308204551.13204.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> I'll happily split the cost of the BASIC ROM is you can make me a copy. Someone else is selling an EO 440 and the bid is up to $108. Crazy! If it were mint condition with all manuals and accessories, etc., then MAYBE it would be worth $100. But this one is not. >>>>>>>>> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > It's nutjob-expensive, if you ask me - but the guy's 2 - one he's epaying > alone ($50 USD opening bid, BIN for $75) and he's got another complete > machine with the BASIC ROM in it for $115 BIN, IIRC. No bids on either > one... should I snag the ROM to make backups of it? :-O Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Mar 8 14:47:11 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:47:11 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308141312.04e00d08@mail> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308192855.03b9eec0@slave> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308141312.04e00d08@mail> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308204645.03baaec0@slave> At 20:15 08/03/2005, you wrote: >At 01:38 PM 3/8/2005, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >Well, touch wood - I've lost very few (if any) e-mails since 1996, when > I first got connected to the Internet. Proper backups are the key, > something too many people have forgotten these days, now that hardware is > reliable[1]. > >Yes, but does anyone here actually save every message? Um, yes... >And speaking of backup, is it relevant to this discussion to know >exactly how the mailing list archives are backed-up and/or mirrored? Probably not, strictly speaking. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 14:48:25 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: decimal-addressed memory (was Re: ot? Simulate something....) In-Reply-To: <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50392.64.139.41.130.1110314905.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Woodelf wrote: > I like decmal machines but thay don't make decimal addressed > memory. Sure they do. I've got plenty of extra, so I'd be happy to sell you as much as you want. Do you want the BCD, excess-3, or 4-2-2-1 addressed parts? What access time and capacity do you want? I think the ones I have the most of are the BCD ones with 10,000 words of two digits each. If you need to store parity or word marks as well, you can use them as one-digit-per-word instead. They're perfect for building your own IBM 1620 clone. Eric From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 8 14:49:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:49:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <200503080455.XAA16305@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > ...at which point they will be basically reinventing email, badly. Email was invented badly to begin with. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 14:54:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: RLL vs. MFM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51431.64.139.41.130.1110315241.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ming_Mae wrote: > No you can't use a RLL with an MFM controller. Similar but not the same. If you're talking about using drives with the ST506/ST412 interface, you most certainly can use an "RLL drive" (e.g., ST277R) on an MFM controller. Of course, you'll only get 2/3 the capacity that you would get with an RLL controller. Using an "MFM drive" with an RLL controller often works, but it depends a lot on the drive. In my experience high-quality drives like the Maxtor XT1000 and XT2000 series always worked fine. Eric From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Mar 8 14:46:39 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:46:39 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 36 Message-ID: <01C523F6.07B5A940@H71.C223.tor.velocet.net> I know I'm beating a dead horse with the "can't we be a little nicer" question, but... Since _he_'s not going to get your reply (unless you CC'd him?), I assume you're just trying to impress the rest of us with your knowledge of RFC's? OK, I'm impressed, in more ways than one; you must have a lot of time on your hands to type all that instead of just cutting & pasting a message header. I'll send him the info, but if I were he and saw your reply in the archives I'd promptly unsubscribe and find some other place to discuss my classic computers. mike -----------Previous Message: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 04:54:54 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: joining the list ? > How does somebody new join this list. > Who do they write to, etc ? Well, you could always try the standard -request address, as outlined in the last paragraph on page 5 of RFC 1118; the second question in section 9 of RFC 1206; the "mailing list" entry in RFC 1392; question 9.2 in RFC 1594; section 3.1.2 and 3.2.2 of RFC 1855; section 6 of RFC 2142; the last paragraph of section 1 of RFC 2369; and probably other places I didn't pick up offhand. If wherever you found out about the list includes messages with headers, you could also use either of the links present in the List-Subscribe: header of every list message. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 8 14:56:14 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:56:14 GMT Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: NNTP instead of mail" (Mar 8, 12:54) References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave> <000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <10503082056.ZM24046@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 8 2005, 12:54, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > An email is forever if your server lets you keep a large enough back-log or > if you download it to your machine and it never ever fails (who ever hear of > a computer having trouble anyway). > > NNTP is forever through people like google groups. Only for groups on public servers, which peer with other Usenet servers. If we're talking about private servers, google groups doesn't enter the equation. > The true problems with NNTP are: not everyone has access to Usenet will and > those that do would have to talk their Usenet provider into including it. Only if the group(s) is/are public, and propagated through Usenet. They don't need to be; lots of groups are private and restricted to a few servers (eg the local York Uni groups, the tin newsreader groups). > I love NNTP and have several groups I follow on it. I see no practical way > to switch to Usenet. The list works, it may not be perfect [...] Agreed :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 8 14:48:03 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:48:03 GMT Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: Chris Blackburn "Re: NNTP instead of mail" (Mar 8, 17:59) References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> <3f581fd384a3cc7b1d9321bf178e92ca@softhome.net> Message-ID: <10503082048.ZM24026@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 8 2005, 17:59, Chris Blackburn wrote: > All the email/news clients I have used support it, these include > > 1) Microsoft Lookout (express) > 2) Mozilla Mail > 3) Mozilla Thunderbird Most traditional ones, like tin, do so as well. > > 3) Some people don't have NNTP access. > > I truly hadn't thought of this one. If it is a problem then we can tell > INN to run on a nonstandard (and usually available) port and tell > people to set up their news clients appropriately. Except that firewalls with a "default drop" policy, ie block everything except that which is "known" to be "safe", are becoming more common -- so using a non-standard port would make matters worse, I suspect. OTOH, you could use port 80 if the NNTP server wasn't also a web server. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 15:02:57 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <53100.64.139.41.130.1110315777.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Mark wrote: > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct > sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the > 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with windows blacked out'. > > When will that be...? Done. It's called digital paper. It contains zillions of little spheres that have a white side and a black side, and it uses electrical charge to rotate them. There are a lot of companies doing research, but only a few commercial products right now. For instance, the latest Sony electronic book reader uses a Philips display. It's only available in Japan (AFAIK), and Sony encumbered the thing with ridiculous DRM, so it's not selling well. It's Linux-based, so I'd still like to get one, but they are fairly pricy. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 15:09:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:09:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <1110300081.4938.217839680@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <1110300081.4938.217839680@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <53998.64.139.41.130.1110316145.squirrel@64.139.41.130> David wrote: > Dysan (are they even around anymore?). IIRC, Dysan was acquired by Verbatim. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 8 14:59:57 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:59:57 GMT Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: "Jim Beacon" "Re: three and a quarter inch floppy?" (Mar 8, 19:18) References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <008201c52413$a8bf1200$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <10503082059.ZM24050@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 8 2005, 19:18, Jim Beacon wrote: > 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing machines (forget > the number - do any of the other UK members know? I think you're thinking of the PCW range, and they used 3", not 3.25". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 8 15:19:35 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:19:35 +0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <1110312097.1005.28.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503081942.j28JfxH7088500@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1110312097.1005.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422E16E7.1090903@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 19:41 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > >>>31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing >>>machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? >> >>They were (I think Hitachi) 3" drives that were going to be 'the next big >>thing'. > > > Yep, I remember them being 3" too. I hate to think how many drive belts > I've replaced on them when I worked for a repair place many years ago. > Hahaha... The belts themselves were expensive (nearly a fiver, in 1991 money!) but I found that there were a couple of belts in the Ferguson Videostar 3V22/3V23 kit (?2.39 from CPC, less in quantity) that were "good enough". Plus, you could always adjust it with the idler wheel to get a bit more out. Used to regularly do these for oil companies in Aberdeen. They survived the harsh electrical environment of oilrigs extremely well. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 8 15:22:01 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:22:01 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422E1779.9050508@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 21:20 -0700, woodelf wrote: > >>Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >>>>I'm baffled by those who would gladly spend months searching for the >>>>right NOS replacement part for a 20-year-old computer, and who would >>>>cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert >>>>island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all >>>>mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... > > > Argh, don't ask things like that. > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > gates. > > Some sort of mechanical effort would be needed to lift sand again in > order to combat gravity pulling sand downward. > > Not much different from a relay computer really, I suppose. Just slower. > And more sandy. > > (I think you got your attribution wrong by the way! Tony might enjoy > such a challenge :) But the sand would wear down the channels, making the fit looser. An interesting form of bit-rot... Gordon. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 8 15:30:21 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:30:21 -0500 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:34:54 GMT." Message-ID: <200503082130.j28LULaP023935@mwave.heeltoe.com> Chris Blackburn wrote: ... >I am talking about setting up a separate private >news server with just the classic comp lists on it. I'm not going to advocate for anything (right now :-) But I will say that I have friends who shoot all their work email to an internal INN server. This allows them to use a nntp client to browse the mail at a later date and to search for things. This might allow for a "hybrid" approach but I'll bet it all falls apart when someone who's reading a post via NNTP tries to respond. I'd be that it would try to post instead of email. If you could get to email then everything would "just work". but I'd stick with email, myself. mh is my friend. -brad From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 8 15:34:35 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:34:35 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 problems. References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050307205624.02525558@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <014f01c52426$a03c7100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tom Uban" > > If you've removed processor options, then you will have to change the > jumpering on the processor to match. The processor and memory are as original. (no FP unit) > > Have you verified that ACLO and DCLO are both inactive and that your > power supplies are good? The power supplies are good - DVM and scope checked. I haven't checked ACLO or DCLO, will try that tomorrow (assuming I get out of work at a reasonable time :-() > > Have you attempted to write data to your console port (as discussed in > prior messages)? I can get address data to the front panel, but not to any other devices. Looking at the KT11 manual, this would suggest that the KT11 is at fault. The address data for the unibus and the front panel display are generated in the KT11, but leave it by different paths. This would suggest that the chip select path for the Unibus driver is at fault, time for extender card and logic probe again....... Jim. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 8 15:37:57 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:37:57 -0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? References: <200503081942.j28JfxH7088500@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <016201c52427$1830c120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Adrian Graham" > > > > 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing > > machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? > > They were (I think Hitachi) 3" drives that were going to be 'the next big > thing'. The likes of Amscrap, Sinclair and Tatung used them probably because > the 'new' sony drive was more expensive. Double sided disks were used to > give 160k per side, you had to turn the disk over to get at the other side. > Most of the amstrad machines on my website feature the 3" drive but I've > just checked and most of the pictures of the drive itself are pretty poor to > say the least! > I've got a PCW series machine downstairs if anyone wants pictures but > they're found all over the web :) Oh well I was close! I knew the Amstrads used something odd, but it's been 20 years since I used one.... Jim. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 8 15:40:41 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:40:41 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503080042.j280gKKS054355@dewey.classiccmp.org><025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <422D6250.4000108@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <016701c52427$7a35d540$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > > Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK. > Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival? > We could always consider a display at the NVCF (National Vintage Communications Fair) at the NEC - usually held in March and September. They often have displays by special interest groups. Jim. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 8 16:03:11 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:03:11 -0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503082203.j28M3Q9G090899@dewey.classiccmp.org> > > From what I remember you can build the sysgen with the drivers you > > know will be there at boot time but could still load them yourself > > afterwards if needed. Must drag the micro73 down here this week and > > see if my RL02s are playing nice..... > > But I never did a sysgen, assuming that is an actual process. > I just formatted/initialized my disk, issued the right COPY > commands to copy over system files and boot monitors, etc. > When I boot with that disk the DD drivers are already loaded. Jerome Fine is more suited to answering this than me, particularly since I can't remember the full sysgen process other than to specify drivers, declare maximum open files etc. I can only assume your system files and kernel are already set up to load the correct disk drivers..... cheers a/w From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 16:09:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:09:15 +0000 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <10503082048.ZM24026@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> <3f581fd384a3cc7b1d9321bf178e92ca@softhome.net> <10503082048.ZM24026@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1110319755.1083.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:48 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 8 2005, 17:59, Chris Blackburn wrote: > > > All the email/news clients I have used support it, these include > > > > 1) Microsoft Lookout (express) > > 2) Mozilla Mail > > 3) Mozilla Thunderbird > > Most traditional ones, like tin, do so as well. I should have worded that one better. What I meant was that email's nice, because all my mailing lists and other mail comes to the same place without me doing anything, *then* I filter it as necessary. Having multiple NNTP server accounts seems a little like the multiple web forum point made earlier; multiple logins and information in different places - I still need to change servers n times to read all the newsgroups I'm subscribed to. OK, it's not as much hassle as the web scenario, but it's more trouble than email I believe. > > > 3) Some people don't have NNTP access. > > > > I truly hadn't thought of this one. If it is a problem then we can > tell > > INN to run on a nonstandard (and usually available) port and tell > > people to set up their news clients appropriately. > > Except that firewalls with a "default drop" policy, ie block everything > except that which is "known" to be "safe", are becoming more common -- > so using a non-standard port would make matters worse, I suspect. > OTOH, you could use port 80 if the NNTP server wasn't also a web > server. Lots of corporate entities will have transparent web proxies intercepting port 80 though. I'm not sure how clever they are - do they intercept *all* port 80 traffic then either process it or fail, or do they pass through non-HTTP traffic on port 80 as though it was never touched by the proxy at all? I imagine both types exist, at least. cheers J. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 16:18:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:18:09 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <0fda01c523f8$4ec322c0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:32:05 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > I'm curious what the holes on the top of the board are for - I have > about 10 metal hex-width "stiffeners" with extractors I was given by a > guy who made unibus memory boards - I've yet to measure the holes on > those. I assume they end up some how pop-riveted to the board but how > one fastens them I'm not sure. I've only used pop-rivets on cars and I > don't think I want to use the same style fasteners on a PCB. Maybe > nylon screws & nuts with some loctite, and trim the excess threads. They use 'eyelet' rivets, not pop rivets, but for home use, as long as the pop rivets don't touch the boards above or below, you should be OK. I happen to have a Stimson foot press with the right die for DEC handle rivets (a legacy from Software Results, since we used to rivet on our own quad and hex handles. Somewhere, I have a box of rivets. > Are some sort of plastic handles available? Any thoughts? I won't say that no 3rd party ever made a plastic-handle hex card, but it is awfully wide to not have a stiffener of some sort. ISTR some 3rd party tape controler (TC-131?) had some kind of machined block on either corner for extractors, but I don't recall what they did to keep the board from flexing; perhaps a metal L bracket? -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 8 16:30:26 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:30:26 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <016701c52427$7a35d540$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <200503080042.j280gKKS054355@dewey.classiccmp.org><025e01c52379$bee1a100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <422D6250.4000108@gjcp.net> <016701c52427$7a35d540$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <422E2782.5080307@gjcp.net> Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > > >>Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK. >>Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival? > We could always consider a display at the NVCF (National Vintage > Communications Fair) at the NEC - usually held in March and September. They > often have displays by special interest groups. May 1st, Biiihmingum NEC? Drat, haven't put my shifts in for May. Still got plenty time to arrange holidays though. Gordon. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 8 16:32:49 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:32:49 -0600 Subject: Christie's Auction Catalog Message-ID: <023701c5242e$c3b7def0$40406b43@66067007> For the last couple days I have been reading the Origins of Cyberspace auction catalog that Christie's put together and it's really a very nice book (except for the prices). It shows me several things I need to be on the lookout for to put into the museum's library and on display. Check it out if you can. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 16:46:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:46:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503082011.j28KBri1005538@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > But I never did a sysgen, assuming that is an actual process. I just > > formatted/initialized my disk, issued the right COPY commands to copy over > > system files and boot monitors, etc. When I boot with that disk the DD > > drivers are already loaded. > > The Monitor you're using was Sysgen'd to load those drivers automatically. > You could probably free up a little memory by doing a Sysgen that just > includes the drivers you need. Ok, makes sense. I suppose I have to find an original system master to make my own sysgen. Though the boot disk I'm using now suits me fine for my current purposes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Mar 8 15:33:27 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:33:27 -0000 Subject: List etiquette References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <05cb01c52431$3a9703a0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 5:26 PM Subject: Re: List etiquette > Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be unsubscribed. > > But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote, > > "HOWEVER, under NO circumstances is it to be perceived that the phrase > "off-topic" included in the subtitle of CCTALK implies that you are > allowed to go off-topic! " > > Now that is double talk. What ever else could it mean!!! You must be > a politician by trade or a Lawyer. > > Please unsubscribe me from this list. I was yelled at about my post > yet you yourself posted about using 8" drives on a PC...Horrors, a > PC...and right out of your own mouth. Doesnt that make you ashamed? > There have been post since on car maintenance and several other topics > that are totaly unrelated to computers of ANY kind. > > I will take my North Star and Nova 1 and go elsewhere for my daily fix > on computers. > > Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again. > Get out the bell,book and candle someone. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 08/03/05 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 16:48:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:48:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308141312.04e00d08@mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 01:38 PM 3/8/2005, Adrian Vickers wrote: > >Well, touch wood - I've lost very few (if any) e-mails since 1996, when I first got connected to the Internet. Proper backups are the key, something too many people have forgotten these days, now that hardware is reliable[1]. > > Yes, but does anyone here actually save every message? I delete > everything that's not of interest to me in the present. This doesn't > help me for the future, though, so chances are slim I'd be able to > search my personal archives for references to a previously unknown device. I don't save anything (well, unless you count the messages I leave in my classiccmp folder that I intend to get to later). But I expect the list to be archived so I can always refer back to it. > And speaking of backup, is it relevant to this discussion to know > exactly how the mailing list archives are backed-up and/or mirrored? Jay has done a decent enough job archiving it over the years, though I do wonder if a complete mirror has been made. If not, I think I'll be the first to volunteer right here and now to be a CC archive mirror. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 8 16:56:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:56:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> Message-ID: <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, > but that doesn't mean anything. I am being told that between a 5.25 and a > 3.5 there was a 3.25. Ever heard of it??? ------ and if so do you know > anything about it? manufacturer? Used by whom where? etc.? Yes, I've heard of them. I have some, and some of those drives in my collection. At one point, it became inevitable that the next stage in floppies would be "shirt pocket disks. There were four contenders: Sony 3.5", 3" (as used in Amstrad), 3.25" from Dysan, and 3.9" from IBM. The IBM 3.9" was the first to give up - there do not appear to have been ANY machines using it. Now there were three. The pundits in the industry argued long and hard about the relative advantages of the three contenders. That prompted George Morrow to suggest that the solution was to simply cut a deal with the clothing industry to make shirt pockets a lot larger (5.25", or even 8"). Both the 3.5" and 3" had hard plastic shells that made them able to withstand much of the abuse that had been the bane of the 8" and 5.25" disks. The 3" was available in a single sided, a "flippy", and a double sided form. The 3.5" chose to closely match the formats of 5.25" "720K" "quad density" disks. The first 3.5" disks had no shutter (Shugart, etc.), the next series had a spring loaded shutter that had to be manually opened, and pinching the corner released the shutter to close it again. Finally, a fully automatic spring loaded shutter was available. Interestingly, many of the later disks still had a little arrow embossed on them, that once pointed to the loacation to squeeze to release the shutter. But Dysan wanted to go with a design that would require minimum retooling of their factories - a 3.25" disk that was the same as a 5.25", except for a metal center hub. Since many of the media and industry pundits assumed that the race would go to the one with software availability, Dysan bet the company on a software publishing venture. Before there were ANY computers using them, Dysan had provided drives and diskettes to major software vendors, and soon, a significant portion of the major commercial software titles could be purchased directly from Dysan! A few computer manufacturers strated designing computers with 3.25" disks. The Seequa Chameleon 325 appears to be the only one that actually made it to market, although with Seequa's reputation for vaporware, it is not clear how many, if any, were ever actually sold. Amstrad (a large British computer company) chose to go with the 3". In addition, Amdek produced external drive units that were marketed for Apple ][ and RS Color Computer. Gavilan briefly used 3" disks, and then switched to 3.5". Meanwhile, HP, and then Apple, and then IBM went with 3.5", which created the new defacto standard. Dysan gave up on their 3.25" disk system. Now there were two. The industry dominance of IBM, Apple, and HP created a defacto standard, and the 3" eventually died. Now there is one. The later versions of the 3.5" use3d a higher coercivity disk, and held 1.4M, instead of the previous 720K. There were some other variations of the 3.5" physical case, including a 2.8M Berrium-Ferrite disk, and 20M Flopticals. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 16:54:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503082203.j28M3Q9G090899@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: > > But I never did a sysgen, assuming that is an actual process. > > I just formatted/initialized my disk, issued the right COPY > > commands to copy over system files and boot monitors, etc. > > When I boot with that disk the DD drivers are already loaded. > > Jerome Fine is more suited to answering this than me, particularly since I > can't remember the full sysgen process other than to specify drivers, > declare maximum open files etc. I can only assume your system files and > kernel are already set up to load the correct disk drivers..... Ok, so the DD.SYS file still needs to be on the disk. It just gets loaded automatically when the system boots. I see. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Tue Mar 8 16:59:58 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:59:58 -0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? References: <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > >http://mysite.verizon.net/res1ac3j/id15.html > > very nice, thanks. No problem. > I'm curious what the holes on the top of the board are for - I have > about 10 metal hex-width "stiffeners" with extractors I was given by a > guy who made unibus memory boards - I've yet to measure the holes on > those. I assume they end up some how pop-riveted to the board but how > one fastens them I'm not sure. I've only used pop-rivets on cars and I > don't think I want to use the same style fasteners on a PCB. Maybe > nylon screws & nuts with some loctite, and trim the excess threads. Well those may be silly. What they are is the correct holes for a DEC double-height handle, replicated three times. I do not know if they line up with the stiffener holes, or if that would even matter, as I imagine the stiffeners are hard to find. The plastic handles were riveted to the boards. I have had good luck attaching them with zip ties, actually (see the "Home" page pointed to at the top). That has nearly the mechanical strength of the nylon screw (if not quite the rigidity), and is simpler. > Are some sort of plastic handles available? Any thoughts? I have a pile of plastic handles, but they have non-DEC spacing. > I want a "spec" paper drawing with dimensions from the books and then > verify it with a selection of unibus cards I have. If only it were that easy. The manuals I have give some of the spec's, some with and some without tolerances, etc. Between the various manuals it is at least possible to round up the needed basic measurements. > Have you made a PCB with the hex width card model? No, I just threw the hex height together in response to the request. What I have done is made single-height cards, and mock-ups of double-height cards. I have drawings for a variety of single and double-height Gxxx, Mxxx and Wxxx flipchips. I also have one complete drawing for an RX8E replica (quad height), but I haven't built one. (And a whole other library for drawing flip-chip backplanes, but that's another story.) Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Mar 8 17:02:40 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:02:40 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:18:09 EST." Message-ID: <200503082302.j28N2e8q002840@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I happen to have a Stimson foot press with the right die for DEC >handle rivets (a legacy from Software Results, since we used to rivet >on our own quad and hex handles. Somewhere, I have a box of rivets. yea, but aren't you on the south pole? seems like a long drive to borrow your foot press :-) are these eyelet rivets something that can be fastened with a hand tool? (somehow I see a fabrication project coming on - to make a board stiffener with extraction arms :-) -brad From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Mar 8 15:56:38 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:56:38 -0000 Subject: 2.5V Lithium "AA" sized batteries: Where to find? References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050305173046.02231048@popmail.ucsd.edu> <10503060948.ZM16692@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <05cc01c52431$3c20b0e0$0200a8c0@geoff> Couldn't find it myself -but Allbatteries have an extensive range. Might be worth a look. http://www.allbatteries.com/productssearch.asp Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 08/03/05 From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Mar 8 16:46:00 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:46:00 -0000 Subject: OT:techology References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <05ce01c52431$3d706260$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:15 AM Subject: Re: OT:techology > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > gates. > cheers > > Jules > How fast would the sand have to flow to invoke the Coanda effect for a fluidic gate ? Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 08/03/05 From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Mar 8 16:39:18 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:39:18 -0000 Subject: minor list changes References: Message-ID: <05cd01c52431$3cc889a0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:03 AM Subject: Re: minor list changes > I learn something every day too. The day I stop learning is the day I am > 6' under in a pine box. > > -tony > Don't be so old -fashioned , it's cardboard boxes these days - less impact on the enviroment :>) Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.0 - Release Date: 08/03/05 From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:29:52 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:29:52 -0000 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > The later versions of the 3.5" use3d a higher coercivity disk, and held > 1.4M, instead of the previous 720K. > There were some other variations of the 3.5" physical case, including a > 2.8M Berrium-Ferrite disk, and 20M Flopticals. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com Does anyone have one of the IBM 2.88M 3.5" devices - we had a couple of PS2 machines with these in at work, but the drives disappeared (replaced with 1.44M units). jim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 8 17:37:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050308153441.U96189@shell.lmi.net> > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Yes, they exist(ed). Fred Cisin certainly has more details. I think I > might have one. Yes, I gave you one (possibly an alignment disk!) at VCF a few years ago. In addition, in the files and ephemera from my office, there were some Dysan spec sheets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 8 17:43:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:43:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> > > There were some other variations of the 3.5" physical case, including a > > 2.8M Berrium-Ferrite disk, and 20M Flopticals. On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Jim Beacon wrote: > Does anyone have one of the IBM 2.88M 3.5" devices - we had a couple of PS2 > machines with these in at work, but the drives disappeared (replaced with > 1.44M units). I have a parallel port MicroSolutions 2.8M drive. Sorry, but I intend to keep it. In addition, some models of Next computers had them (called "4M" for their UNformatted capacity). BTW, in order to call it "2.88M", you would need to use3 the IBM drive de3finition of "megabyte" of 1024000. If you define a Megabyte ("Mebibyte") as 1048576, then "1.44M" has 1.40625 M, and "2.88M" has 2.8125 M. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 17:51:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:51:41 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 "J.C. Wren" wrote: > Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > > >I'd be interested- couldn't start 'till we spring the kids for summer > >break, though. > > > >- Scott Quinn > > > > > > > Google for "PDP8 VHDL". > There's lots of hits. > Yes, but there's already a nice CMOS chip out there, in a friendly 40-pin DIP package. It's even more than a decade on-topic here. (the date code on the ones I have is 8001). (googling 'IM6100' probably doesn't bring up as many snazzy websites, though) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:56:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:56:05 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <05ce01c52431$3d706260$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <05ce01c52431$3d706260$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <1110326165.1083.52.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 22:46 +0000, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:15 AM > Subject: Re: OT:techology > > > > You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is hollow and so > > can be used to channel dry sand around. Different lengths of bamboo > > could be used to introduce delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic > > gates. > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > How fast would the sand have to flow to invoke the Coanda effect for a > fluidic gate ? OK, so I went a-googling. Is speed an issue, or merely the shape of the bamboo? From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 8 17:53:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:53:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <20050308153441.U96189@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Have you ever heard of a three and a quarter inch floppy? I never have, > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Yes, they exist(ed). Fred Cisin certainly has more details. I think I > > might have one. > > Yes, I gave you one (possibly an alignment disk!) at VCF a few years ago. Oh boy. It's probably in one of my boxes of leftover VCF crap ;) I'll have to go looking for it now. > In addition, in the files and ephemera from my office, there were some > Dysan spec sheets. Oh goodie. Still got those. And I know where they are ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 8 18:08:55 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Mar 8, 5 03:33:29 pm" Message-ID: <200503090008.QAA17084@floodgap.com> > It's nutjob-expensive, if you ask me - but the guy's 2 - one he's epaying > alone ($50 USD opening bid, BIN for $75) and he's got another complete > machine with the BASIC ROM in it for $115 BIN, IIRC. No bids on either > one... should I snag the ROM to make backups of it? :-O > > Will another chance come along like this at all??? > Anyone wanna go in with me on it? *I gotz the Eproms...* If you have the capsule carriers, too, I'll pitch in for a copy. I'm not skilled enough to build my own module, though, alas. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Raiders of the Lost E-mail Signature --------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 8 18:09:51 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:09:51 GMT Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: NNTP instead of mail" (Mar 8, 22:09) References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> <3f581fd384a3cc7b1d9321bf178e92ca@softhome.net> <10503082048.ZM24026@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1110319755.1083.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503090009.ZM24520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 8 2005, 22:09, Jules Richardson wrote: > Lots of corporate entities will have transparent web proxies > intercepting port 80 though. I'm not sure how clever they are - do they > intercept *all* port 80 traffic then either process it or fail, or do > they pass through non-HTTP traffic on port 80 as though it was never > touched by the proxy at all? I imagine both types exist, at least. Most that I know of interpret the traffic, so NNTP on port 80 would fail on those. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 8 18:13:28 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:13:28 GMT Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size?" (Mar 8, 17:18) References: <0fda01c523f8$4ec322c0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <10503090013.ZM24545@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 8 2005, 17:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > They use 'eyelet' rivets, not pop rivets, but for home use, as long as > the pop rivets don't touch the boards above or below, you should be > OK. > I won't say that no 3rd party ever made a plastic-handle hex card, but > it is awfully wide to not have a stiffener of some sort. ISTR some > 3rd party tape controler (TC-131?) had some kind of machined block on > either corner for extractors, but I don't recall what they did to keep > the board from flexing; perhaps a metal L bracket? I've got one hex comms board and one 3rd party memory that have no stiffeners, the comms board has plastic blocks on the corners with extractor levers. Both are a pain because they flex a lot, and both are sitting on a shelf somewhere in the workshop, not in a machine. Even quad QBus cards without some stiffening are a pain. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 16:57:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:57:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RLL vs. MFM In-Reply-To: from "Ming_Mae@hotmail.com" at Mar 5, 5 06:24:11 pm Message-ID: > > No you can't use a RLL with an MFM controller. Similar but not the same. Sure you can. If the interface is the same (most likely the ST506/ST412 interface here), then you can use an RLL-capable drive with an MFM controller. You won't be able to read what's on the drive, you'll have to low-level format it, and you'll only get about 2/3s the stated capacity. But if you're trying to replace a hard drive in some old machine with an MFM controller and you happen to have an RLL-capable drive around, it'll work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:01:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:01:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <2c8f1fc2c8e77f.2c8e77f2c8f1fc@optonline.net> from "dvcorbin@optonline.net" at Mar 7, 5 09:04:47 pm Message-ID: > > > You are seriouisly suggesting that I carry a pile of service > > manuals, classic computers, and test gear (all of which I've > > been known to use in order to answer questions here) to > > the local internet cafe? > > > > Of course not.... you set them all up there as an exhibit!!!! OK, then you expect me to carry my test gear and manuals home whenever I need to fix one of my own computers? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:05:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422D0C3A.1070606@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Mar 7, 5 08:21:46 pm Message-ID: > I fail to see how the list you summarized indicates the users are > scared. I agree some (no room for another machine) might not hold up > under severe scrutiny (Honey, no room for a PC/104 IBM, but I just took > deilvery of a PDP-11), but the others seem quite pragmatic. You don't know how little space I've got left..... Anyway, PDP11s are not hard to accomodate. The CPU is quite often a single 10.5" (or even 5.25") rackmount box. That goes in a rack with other stuff. And if there's no space in the rack, then it just sits on top of something else. And something else goes on top. It's a nice, cuboidal, module The PC processor box is much the same, sure. But the monitor isn't. Monitors don't often go in racks (Yes, rackmount ones do exist, but they are not common or cheap). They are irregularly shaped boxes that don't stack nicely. For me to run a so-called modern PC, I would need a new monitor, and that is something I certainly can't accomodate -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:09:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:09:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/45 problems. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050307205624.02525558@mail.ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Mar 7, 5 08:58:32 pm Message-ID: > If you've removed processor options, then you will have to change the > jumpering on the processor to match. On an 11/35 (or 11/40), yes, but not on an 11/45. I don't think there are any jumpers on that set of processor boards. The only thing to be aware of is that there's a backplane jumper for the NPG line across the KW11-L slot, which you cut when you fit that (line time clock) card. You should re-make it if you ever remove the KW11-L -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:14:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:14:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 7, 5 09:20:36 pm Message-ID: > >>cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a desert > >>island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the arcana of all > >>mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 years, or whom > >> > >> > > > > > Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... Well, my first thought is that sand is SiO_2, so you could try to reduce it to silicon and make transistors. On the other hand, it's probably easier to use it like a 'fluid' and have full bamboo containers for '1's and empty ones for '0's or something. > > > Well I tust visible techology as compared to hidden or controled techology. Good point. I object to using anything that I don't fully understand. Since I am not clever enough to understand modern PCs, I guess I'll never use one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:19:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:19:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <000a01c523a6$f58c67d0$2101a8c0@finans> from "Nico de Jong" at Mar 8, 5 07:20:43 am Message-ID: > Be sure to check the labels on the stepper motor. Some years ago I had a > brief "aquintance" with a SSSD drive from Control Data. I binned it > immediately, as it showed that the steppermotor needed 115VAC ! Never! I've enver seen am 8" drive with anything but a 24V stepper motor. The spindle motor is often mains powered (and often 115V, to be powered by an autotransformer if you have 230V mains). It's a capacitor-run induction motor, and you generally have to change the pulleys (and maybe the belt) when going between 50Hz and 60Hz mains, to get the spindle speed right. My P851 and P854 systems have CDC floppies (and I have the CDC service manual for them). They have 24V steppers and AC-line powered spindles. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:22:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> from "Mark Wickens" at Mar 8, 5 11:47:11 am Message-ID: > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct > sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the A refelctive (non-backlit) LCD? As fitted to many of my HP handhelds, HP110, Portable Plus, Tandy 100, etc, etc, etc -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:06:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:06:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <422D0C88.90401@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Mar 7, 5 08:23:04 pm Message-ID: > > Anybody who believes 'popular' == 'good' is, IMHO, a total idiot! > > > > -tony > > Anybody whoe believes that everything popular is bad is also a total idiot. I would agree with that. I have never (to my knowledge) made that statement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:24:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:24:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <000601c523de$609f6d60$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Mar 8, 5 12:57:26 pm Message-ID: > The 3" drive was used in the Tatung Einstein as well as various Amstrads and > possibly a few > less well known systems. The Oric is another one (yes, there was an Oric floppy drive). I've also seen 3" drives (the Hitachi ones have standard SA400-like interfaces) used on BBC micros, Tandy CoCos, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:59:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:59:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <1110312097.1005.28.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 8, 5 08:01:37 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 19:41 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > 31/4 drives were used on the old Amstrad word processing > > > machines (forget the number - do any of the other UK members know? PCW8256? > > > > They were (I think Hitachi) 3" drives that were going to be 'the next big > > thing'. > > Yep, I remember them being 3" too. I hate to think how many drive belts > I've replaced on them when I worked for a repair place many years ago. The Amstrad drives were certainly belt-driven (and replacing the belt was a common job). The Hitachi drives I've used (single and double head) had direct-drive spindle motors, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:45:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: minor list changes In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308074026.04baf888@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 8, 5 09:30:41 am Message-ID: > > At 08:21 PM 3/7/2005, Jim Brain wrote: > >One can't help but wonder if the web forum thread is half-serious, half troll. > >Especially considering the list makeup. I probably should feed the troll, > >but the stereotyping thing seemed a bit overkill. > > Yes, not only am I trolling but I'm also playing the devil's advocate > because I grow tired of the unending Windows bashing. (I'm plenty capable AFAIK I've not 'basehd Windows' here, at least not recently. I will happily admit that _I_ don't like Microsoft Windows. I prefer a unix-like OS, and for various reasons, I run linux. I can assure you I did consider various OSes before making that decision, I didn't just decide to not-run-Windows because all my friends don't run it either. Hoewever, I am prepared to accept that for some people, Windows might be the right choice. Anyway, this is a totally stupid argument. If I did decide to run a more modern PC with a grapgical display I can assure you I'd not run any OS for which I didn't have the source code. I may not be much of a programmer, but I am capable of reading source code and patching things. > Why is it necessary to say that today's technology is bad just to > affirm that yesterday's is/was good? It isn't. I am just not prepared to accept (and never will be) that the 'new' is always better than the 'old'. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I prefer to look at all the available solutions and pick the one which I consider to be the best. Maybe a new idea, maybe something that's been around for decades. If it solves the problem, then it's good. > Surely there are assumptions to be questioned. To wit, a web user is less > concerned about hoarding precious ASCII files. They assume the connection The whole point about ASCII files is that there are many tools to deal with them. The available tools for other file types are nowhere near as versatile (yet) as far as I've seen. > will always be "on". They have no need to 'grep' a local copy because > they assume it'll still be Out There somewhere. They don't need to 'grep' Many times a web page I've wanted has either been removed, been replaced (with something that doesn't contain the bit of information I want) or moved somewhere. I would never depend on information remaining on the web. > At 07:03 PM 3/7/2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >Well I cetainly can't do any of those. I have never been offered a PC > >faster than a 286. I certainly can't afford broadband. > > I don't know your circumstances. You're in the UK. I suspect > broadband is available your area for about $30 a month. If time I don't have $30 a month spare.... > is worth anything to you, it'll be worth it compared to dial-up. My time is not worth anything. Nobody pays me for my time anyhow. > What do you pay for dial-up? \pounds 10.00 a month. > > Around here in East Bumblefrick USA, clients are begging me to haul away > their old 600 Mhz PCs as well as any previous generations. You find them Not over here you don't (and skip-diving (dumpster diving) is actuallly illegal here I think). I don't have any local friends who are into computing, I don't get offered old machines. At all. > on the curb. Are you truly not using a web browser, ever? I've got an old version of lynx that gets me to the couple of (text-based) sites I really need. For anything else I pop to an internet cafe. That's normally when I need a pinout for some obscure chip that's not in the 100-or-so databooks I have here. But I must say I am not at all impressed with much of the stuff I find on the web. I was looking at some scanned camera service info the other day (yes, I tinker with classic cameras too). All I can say is that I found them to be unreadable (even when I zoomed in, this doesn't seem to be a PC display probkem). And I've had the same problem with schematics, etc, on the web. > > >And I don't mind > >admitting I am not clever enough to repair modern PCs, I don't have a BGA > >rework station > > You're trying too hard. See above for a source of a new PC. If I did get one, I'd have to keep it running. Most of them now seem to have BGA-packaged chips in them, presumably I need a fancy re-work station to repalce them. Even if you convinced me to swap the entire board, I'd still need a rather better logic analyser (and probably 'scope) than I already have to find out which board is faulty. Better make it 2 LA's and 'scopes so I can use one to fix the other. Now this is going to get very expensive. (And no, I don't know anywhere where I can borrow them from). You will _never_ convince me to swap boards at random until the machine seems to work again. I've tried that a couple of times, and lived to regret it! > > >I much prefer mailing lists to web fora. I prefer large-format film > >cameras to digital cameras. And so on. > > I just picked up a gorgeous Leitz Focomat IIc enlarger for $300, > I'm debating whether to keep it or eBay it and get ~$3000. I picked up a Focomat 1 for \pounds 10.00 (!). It needed a few minor repairs, but it's not exactly complicated. I don't use it, though, it's 35mm only. I use a DeVere 504 (sub-miniature right up to 5*4" sheet film). Lovely piece of engineering, the only electronics is the timer (based ona a 555) and the stabiliser for the Dichromat colour head (which is an op-amp + saturable reactors). I understand how all that works... To bring this back sort-of on-topic, one day I am going to make a modifed version of the enlarger exposure meter that's in 'Control the World with HPIL', and which uses an HP41CX + GPIO interface. Modified to use an ADC I can easily get now, and to plug into the 8-pin socket on the DeVere stabiliser box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:51:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for HP 98155A (aka 09915-68000) keyboard In-Reply-To: <01d601c523fd$fefcb700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Mar 8, 5 11:43:44 am Message-ID: > > On the topic of matrix conversions... > Going from one device matrix to a controller expecting another > is something like converting one set of 24 lines to another 24. To do > it in PIC's would take two, unless there were such things as matrix to > serial encoders and decoder chips. Anybody make them? To stick with the 9915 keyboard for the moment. The Matrix is something like 11 * 8 (or is it 10*8?). And from what I rmember, only 1 key in the matrix is ever 'down' at a time. I was going to simulato that by a couple of analogue muxes back-to-back (if you see what I mean), then I cna feed in the right select codes and effectively press a key. Shift and Control are handled spearately (they have their own pins on the DB25 connector), an open-collector output for each would do. For machines that need have several keys pressed at once, there was (is?) a 4*4 crosspoint switch IC in the 4000 series CMOS. There's proably something like it still available. I was going to use a normal PC/AT keyboard, which has an intenral microcontroller to do the scanning. Feed the serial output of that into my onw microcontroller that then controls the muxes, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 8 17:53:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:53:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <1110303852.1005.23.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 8, 5 05:44:12 pm Message-ID: > > Can you make batteries from bamboo though? Any fruit around? 2 differnet metals in a bit of fruit makes a crude electrochemical cell.... I once ran a calculator from an apple with a bit of copper pipe and a galvanised nail stuck in it,. It was a Newtonsday demonstration for HPCC..... -tony From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Mar 8 18:21:33 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 05 00:21:33 GMT Subject: list queue retention Message-ID: <0503090021.AA27820@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > In case no one caught my previous post on this, a few days ago I moved = > the queue retention time back up to a reasonable value. Thank you! > I suspect Michael Sokolov is testing this out for me, his name servers = > (and thus email) have been down a few hours. Do you really think that I, after having earned the trust of my circle of friends (who all have accounts on my various servers, and use and depend on various services hosted at my data centre) as a competent, reliable and trustworthy professional system and network administrator for our Circle, would deliberately shut it down, screwing all our users?! There must be something seriously wrong with your thinking if you indeed thought so. We (yes, we, not I, I'm not the only person at Harhan, and this server is not the only one) had been down from about 02:30 UTC to 21:42 UTC (2005-03-08) due to our enemies tampering with the SDSL line that connects our data centre to the outside world. All of our servers were still running, but the entire facility was isolated from the net for about 19 hours. Apparently someone tried to wiretap the SDSL line and broke it in the process. Time domain reflectometry indicated a problem in the line somewhere between our facility and the local telco's CO from which the SDSL line is served. The techs at the SDSL NOC assumed it was an open circuit, but I know this was not the case, since during the downtime there was still *some* signal coming from the SDSL line, it was just apparently too distorted for the DSLAM and the CPE to sync up. So the problem detected by TDR, which they dispatched a local telco tech to fix, was NOT an open, but something else. I very strongly suspect foul play. The fix took so long because the ISP apparently considers business SDSL customers not worthy enough to fix in the middle of the night, so even though I reported the problem last night, it wasn't until this morning EST that they even looked at it, and then they had to have the local telco dispatch a technician, and the tech had to get to it... I'm glad they fixed it, but it's too bad I was at school at the time so I didn't catch the telco tech and thus wasn't able to ask him what he found as the source of the problem. I'm now catching up with the backlog of mail... MS From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 8 18:25:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:25:35 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net> <1110303755.1005.21.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422E427F.1050706@oldskool.org> David H. Barr wrote: > >>3) Some people don't have NNTP access. Seriously. I've seen braindead >>companies who don't consider usenet to be a good resource and block the >>port at the firewall (despite usenet being IME a quicker way of getting > > I have to, unfortunately, agree with 3), except I would have to change > "some" to "many". It's not only the company you might work for, but NNTP is easily the first thing blocked at a corporation, so I have to agree as well. Otherwise, cctalk/cctech should easily have been a newsgroup on a private server, given the amount of traffic cctalk gets. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:40:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:40:59 -0500 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <200503082302.j28N2e8q002840@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200503082302.j28N2e8q002840@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:02:40 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >I happen to have a Stimson foot press with the right die for DEC handle rivets... > > yea, but aren't you on the south pole? Not at the moment... that was _last_ (austral) winter. Been home for over a month. > seems like a long drive to borrow your foot press :-) Heh... reminds me of the gals from Texas that met some friends of mine from New Zealand, all at a park in Arizona. The gals asked where my friends were from and when they were told, the gals blinked and said, "New Zealand?!? That's a long drive, ain't it?" > are these eyelet rivets something that can be fastened with a hand tool? Presumably. It'd be like setting grommets in canvas... one should have a table anvil of the right diameter and shape, and a hand punch to form the curl... would also need to support the board at the right height off the workbench so a) it doesn't slip, and b) doesn't snap off the tip off the table anvil (there's a bit that sticks up that the rivet sits on so it doesn't move and doesn't close the hole when struck). I do not know where one would _get_ a hand setter for these, but one could make one quickly enough with a lathe. ISTR the last time someone broke the Stimpson anvil (by not supporting the board and breaking off that tip I mentioned), it was something like $75 for a new one. The Stimpson press itself is at least hundreds of dollars, used, if not $1000. Dunno what one costs new, even SRC bought this one used. -ethan From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 8 18:44:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:44:45 -0500 Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: <200503090008.QAA17084@floodgap.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308192717.0530df00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Cameron Kaiser may have mentioned these words: > > It's nutjob-expensive, if you ask me - but the guy's 2 - one he's epaying > > alone ($50 USD opening bid, BIN for $75) and he's got another complete > > machine with the BASIC ROM in it for $115 BIN, IIRC. No bids on either > > one... should I snag the ROM to make backups of it? :-O > > > > Will another chance come along like this at all??? > > Anyone wanna go in with me on it? *I gotz the Eproms...* > >If you have the capsule carriers, too, I'll pitch in for a copy. I'm not >skilled enough to build my own module, though, alas. Good news: the EPROMs I have are from straight from HHCs and are built into the carrier. Just plug and go. ;-) I just happen to have a metric buttload of 'em as well! Better news: I was hoping not to pay $75 for buy-it-now, so I just put the $50 bid on it hoping no-one else would bid. The guy ended the auction early, so it's mine! $55 shipped, and already paid for. ;-) Now to climb the stairs to the 3rd floor attic and find my HHC... ;-) (That, and find my wire-wrap tool to hack up an adapter for my EPROM reader...) Oh, Happy Day! Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:53:00 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:53:00 -0500 Subject: RLL vs. MFM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:57:20 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > No you can't use a RLL with an MFM controller. Similar but not the same. > > Sure you can. > > If the interface is the same (most likely the ST506/ST412 interface > here), then you can use an RLL-capable drive with an MFM controller. You > won't be able to read what's on the drive, you'll have to low-level > format it, and you'll only get about 2/3s the stated capacity. But if > you're trying to replace a hard drive in some old machine with an MFM > controller and you happen to have an RLL-capable drive around, it'll work. Some people even did it on purpose, back in the day... I remember people putting a Seagate ST-238R on an MFM controller and getting the expected 21.4MB. The reason for doing it on purpose was to de-rate the drive in the expectation of fewer bad blocks, and longer-term reliability. Dunno if that really works, but at the time, there was this expectation that it should work, certainly better than trying to format an ST-225 as if it were an ST-238R. (I think it was assumed that Seagate already had qualified their own platters and labelled the drives accordingly) -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 8 18:54:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:54:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting Message-ID: <200503090054.QAA21854@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Be sure to check the labels on the stepper motor. Some years ago I had a >> brief "aquintance" with a SSSD drive from Control Data. I binned it >> immediately, as it showed that the steppermotor needed 115VAC ! > >Never! I've enver seen am 8" drive with anything but a 24V stepper motor. > >The spindle motor is often mains powered (and often 115V, to be powered >by an autotransformer if you have 230V mains). It's a capacitor-run >induction motor, and you generally have to change the pulleys (and maybe >the belt) when going between 50Hz and 60Hz mains, to get the spindle >speed right. > >My P851 and P854 systems have CDC floppies (and I have the CDC service >manual for them). They have 24V steppers and AC-line powered spindles. > >-tony > Hi I looked at the manual for the SA800/801 and the +24V is used for the stepper and head load but it is also used for some of the electronics. Where the exact voltage is critical, there is a zener. It would nost likely work anywhere +- 2 or 3 volts. Dwight From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 8 19:32:40 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:32:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308192717.0530df00@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Mar 8, 5 07:44:45 pm" Message-ID: <200503090132.RAA18382@floodgap.com> > Better news: I was hoping not to pay $75 for buy-it-now, so I just put the > $50 bid on it hoping no-one else would bid. The guy ended the auction > early, so it's mine! $55 shipped, and already paid for. ;-) Tell me where to send the cash and address, and I'll kick my part in. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. -- Napoleon Bonaparte --------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Mar 8 19:32:55 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:32:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308192717.0530df00@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Mar 8, 5 07:44:45 pm" Message-ID: <200503090132.RAA14806@floodgap.com> I should say, I can paypal, too. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Today's forecast is total crap! -- Strong Bad, "Homestar Runner" Menu #11 -- From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 8 19:32:34 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309013234.99986.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Roger, >>>>>> The guy ended the auction early, so it's mine! $55 shipped, and already paid for. That is great news! Please tell me what I need to do (i.e., how much $$ you want me to send) to get a copy of the BASIC. Evan Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 8 19:36:13 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:36:13 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422D631F.9010909@gjcp.net> References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> <422D631F.9010909@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <422E530D.7070604@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't >> handy at the moment). >> SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0 >> SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2 >> SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0 > > That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put > it in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it > kicks off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if > I rename STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly. Jerome Fine replies: Once done, the SET command values are held in the DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to do the SET commands each time. Probably not recommended in any case. Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster response after the first usage. In addition, I strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has a serious impact on the program which you run. In addition, it would be helpful to know the full version number of the RT-11 version which you are using. Based on the above SET commands, it must be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released in 1985. There are certain features which later versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be aware of. the RT-11 command: SHOW CONFIG will provide the information, as will the banner when RT-11 first boots. Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET values which have been suggested since they impact very negatively with regard to booting RT-11. You will not lose anything with a different combination of SET parameters, but you will gain with respect to what drives can be booted, in particular from a cold start. The exact nature of which disk drives are being used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11 users do not realize that the actual hardware being used is very important along with the software version. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 8 19:37:05 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:37:05 -0500 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422E5341.4090807@compsys.to> >chris wrote: >I'm actually amazed how many people DO save every email. > >In fact, most of the people I work with, not only save every email, but >also never move them from their inbox. They just have these huge, >multi-megabyte inbox files (they would be multi-gigabyte, but I have >everyone save for 1 person and myself set to use Eudora, which IMO >properly handles attachments by detaching them from the email when it is >received... so you don't end up with every last 20 MB attachment filling >up your email database). > > > Jerome Fine replies: While I DELETE 95% of the incoming e-mails (most are from 2 lists), I do keep almost ALL private e-mails. In addition, I keep every spam e-mail until the end of the year. If the total is above a certain limit, I change my e-mail address. The biggest advantage of shifting from dialup to high speed was that I had to change my e-mail address. Spam dropped from 30 per day to zero for the next year. So far this year it is a total of 74. I can cope with about one a day considering the total just on this list. One thing that I tend to do as a precaution is that when I start to determine which incoming e-mails should be deleted, I first disconnect the system from the internet (unplug the RJ45). Some e-mails attempt to connect directly to an internet address. If the internet connection is not working, this tends to be an added protection. The disconnect takes about 3 seconds since I added a second RJ45 cable and a female to female connector right beside the keyboard. Does anyone else do this as well? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 8 19:42:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:42:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: list queue retention Message-ID: <200503090142.RAA21864@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov at ivan.harhan.org > >Jay West wrote: > >> In case no one caught my previous post on this, a few days ago I moved = >> the queue retention time back up to a reasonable value. > >Thank you! > >> I suspect Michael Sokolov is testing this out for me, his name servers = >> (and thus email) have been down a few hours. > >Do you really think that I, after having earned the trust of my circle of >friends (who all have accounts on my various servers, and use and depend on >various services hosted at my data centre) as a competent, reliable and >trustworthy professional system and network administrator for our Circle, >would deliberately shut it down, screwing all our users?! There must be >something seriously wrong with your thinking if you indeed thought so. Lighten up. Jay was just kidding. ---snip--- >DSLAM and the CPE to sync up. So the problem detected by TDR, which they >dispatched a local telco tech to fix, was NOT an open, but something else. >I very strongly suspect foul play. > ---snip--- Wow, you are paranoid. It was more likely that some other tech ( while trying to find another clean line to fix a complain about noise ) accidentally bent a wire to cross your line at one of the junction boxes. This kind of thing happens regularly ( about every 6 months or so ) to my home line because I live in an area with a lot of noisy line ( water in cable ). Why does everything that happens need to be a conspiracy. Clumsy techs are much more common than sneaky people. If someone was actually doing what you suggest, they would most likely have done a better job. If it wasn't working for you, it most likely wasn't working for them either. Dwight From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 19:43:37 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Three books added to collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050309014337.35383.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> The TV Typewriter Cookbook and the Cheap Video Cookbook both seem to be reasonably available on the used market. I just checked Amazon.com. --Bill --- Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0600, Keys > wrote: > > Got these in the mail the other day a copy of TV > Typewriter Cookbook by Don > > Lancaster, the Cheap Video cookbook by Don > Lancaster, and a digital VT1200 - > > Installing and Using The VT1200 Video Terminal > manual. I believe that I > > have other copies of the both the Don Lancaster > books down in storage > > someplace. > > > > > > Any chance of these getting into bitsavers? > > /wai-sun > From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Mar 8 19:54:07 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:54:07 -0500 Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models References: <1110267649.9126.14.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <002b01c5244a$e36b3140$0100a8c0@screamer> I used to own an 11t55. It has fast bipolar memory, and a dual unibus configuration. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:40 AM Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models > Hi, > > I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a PDP-11/55 and a > PDP-11/t55 is (other than the obvious "t"). > > Anyone out there know? > > Thanks. > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 8 20:22:35 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:22:35 -0700 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 >"J.C. Wren" wrote: > > >Yes, but there's already a nice CMOS chip out there, in a friendly >40-pin DIP package. It's even more than a decade on-topic here. (the >date code on the ones I have is 8001). > >(googling 'IM6100' probably doesn't bring up as many snazzy websites, >though) > > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Mar 8 20:38:19 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:19 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <422E619B.2080107@jcwren.com> I did not write what was quoted below as being from me. I think a couple paragraphs got dropped or something. I don't have the original article that shows who it should be correctly attributed to. --jc woodelf wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > >> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 >> "J.C. Wren" wrote: >> >> >> Yes, but there's already a nice CMOS chip out there, in a friendly >> 40-pin DIP package. It's even more than a decade on-topic here. (the >> date code on the ones I have is 8001). >> >> (googling 'IM6100' probably doesn't bring up as many snazzy websites, >> though) >> >> > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > >> http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html > > > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 8 20:40:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:40:11 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <20050308123752.NDFA25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050308123752.NDFA25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <422E620B.8080006@oldskool.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>Do you have a Central Point Option Board (any rev) for your museum? > > I have one of these - haven't installed it yet. From reading the documentation, > it looks like it can copy disk to disk, and disk to temporary file on the hard > drive and back to disk, but it does NOT look like it can copy a disk to a file > and then at some point later in time copy the file back to the disk... It can. The disk-to-temporary-file doesn't delete the file. I have used this many times to send protected diskette images electronically to friends overseas. > I am mainly interested in read disk images to files for long term archival. > Does anyone know if this is possible with the option board? Yes, definitely. The problem is finding hardware it runs well in. To make decent images of DSDD disks, it needs an actual DSDD drive (no high-density drives). It also needs a 386 or lower, as the software that drives the board does so with timing loops. > The option board isn't really a good candidate for this anyway, as the format > of the archived data is not documented (at least not in any of the material > I have with the card), so you would be relying on a non-obtainable and > unsupported card to restore the disks in the future - but I thought I might > play with it a bit. It will copy anything it sees; it writes the MFM/GCR/whatever bitstream to the file. Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 8 20:45:36 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 20:45:36 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail In-Reply-To: <422E5341.4090807@compsys.to> References: <422E5341.4090807@compsys.to> Message-ID: <422E6350.7090703@oldskool.org> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > of shifting from dialup to high speed was that I had > to change my e-mail address. Spam dropped from 30 per > day to zero for the next year. So far this year it is I get well over 200 a day. Filtering keeps about 99% of them out, and never a false positive (I got 2 false positives last year and I didn't respond to them anyway because I didn't care to reply to them :-) This is because I've had my email address for nearly a decade, and I have no plans on changing it. I will never change my email address, because I want my friends to always have a way to contact me. Spam sucks, but not having your friends able to contact you sucks more. > which incoming e-mails should be deleted, I first > disconnect the system from the internet (unplug the RJ45). > Some e-mails attempt to connect directly to an internet > address. If the internet connection is not working, this > tends to be an added protection. The disconnect takes > about 3 seconds since I added a second RJ45 cable and a > female to female connector right beside the keyboard. > > Does anyone else do this as well? No, I run email clients that don't have vulnerabilities!!! Change your email client to something that doesn't attempt to run trojans! (Thunderbird, mutt, pine, etc.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 8 20:52:29 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:52:29 -0500 Subject: Christie's Auction Catalog References: <023701c5242e$c3b7def0$40406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <006101c52453$0919d2e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Yeah, They make the statement that they were selling the... well, here's what they said: "Undoubtedly the first cartoon to feature an electronic computer." p.223, by "Alexander", (Philadelphia Bulletin 12-Mar-1946) My closest other find outside this catalog was a Robert Day from all the way to 1953. Quality Stuff. John A. But I do want to prove them wrong. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 8 21:03:17 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:03:17 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422E6775.20408@compsys.to> >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>The Monitor you're using was Sysgen'd to load those drivers automatically. >>You could probably free up a little memory by doing a Sysgen that just >>includes the drivers you need. >> >Ok, makes sense. I suppose I have to find an original system master to >make my own sysgen. Though the boot disk I'm using now suits me fine for >my current purposes. > Jerome Fine replies: As far as I understand RT-11, all device drivers are auto installed at boot time if the hardware which corresponds to that device driver is present. In addition, the resident device driver must be permanently LOADed. If the command SHOW DEVICE ia used, the system device will be shown as resident just above the monitor. After the system device driver and the resident monitor are set up in memory, the BSTRAP program does a few more things followed by an attempt to make the LD(X).SYS device driver "CLEAN" and finally by trying to execute the startup command file - which has a specific name for each monitor. The user may edit that startup command file to include most normal RT-11 commands, about the only exception being that a nested command file must be the last command. As for original system distributions, there are a large number at http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ in the file RT11DV10.ISO.zip which contains 13 RT-11 distributions ending with V05.03 of RT-11 for use by hobby users under SIMH. The actual ISO file can be burned to a CD or used with SIMH as: ATTACH RQ0: RT11DV10.ISO SET RQ0: LOCK BOOT RQ0: Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 8 21:10:00 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:10:00 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net><6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave><000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop><6.1.2.0.2.20050308192855.03b9eec0@slave> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308141312.04e00d08@mail> Message-ID: <00d001c52455$7b5cb320$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > And speaking of backup, is it relevant to this discussion to know > exactly how the mailing list archives are backed-up and/or mirrored? I thought it was plainly known from the list discussions... the classiccmp server uses a 3ware/escalade/EMC hardware raid controller to mirror the two IDE drives therein. In addition, various bits are occasionally copied to another server. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 8 21:12:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:12:05 -0600 Subject: NNTP instead of mail References: <499164b210d1ac10027b7ba3969a3d98@softhome.net><6.1.2.0.2.20050308174536.02126ec0@slave><000e01c52410$4c370cc0$653cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <00e501c52455$c59036b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > I am talking about setting up a separate private > news server with just the classic comp lists on it. I'd rather you didn't. Jay From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 8 21:11:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:11:37 -0500 Subject: OT:techology References: Message-ID: <009d01c52455$b5b9cd00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in direct > sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is affectionately called the Look for Sony XBrite. I believe I saw this used at a high-end ATM. Very compatible with direct sunlight. John A. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:15:27 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing Message-ID: I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) /wai-sun From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 8 21:24:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:24:33 -0600 Subject: list queue retention References: <0503090021.AA27820@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <020d01c52457$869762b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MS wrote... > Do you really think that I, after having earned the trust of my circle > would deliberately shut it down, No, I didn't think anything of the sort. You're paranoid. > data centre to the outside world. Data Centre?? Elitist. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:32:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:32:59 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:22:35 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > > > http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html Is that an Intercept Jr? Sure looks like it. Handy that LEDs don't fog paper. :-) It reminds me of an article I saw, with software, for hanging a relay off of the Q-line of an 1802 on an original PopTronics Elf for use as an enlarger timer. You set the time on the toggles, fired up the CPU, and used the IN button to fire the enlarger for a preset number of seconds. Given how much enlarger timers were 30 years ago, this was an effective use of a $100 computer. Kinda still is. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 8 21:34:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:34:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. Two leap to mind: IBM's Early Computers IBM's System 360 and Early 370 Computers These are both very serious works. I hope the same guys continue on... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:37:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:37:25 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics" I have the student guide (a soft-cover companion volume), but not the primary book itself. I did have access to one for the entire time I was at the Pole. Read it cover to cover 3 times. Can't wait to find one that I can afford to buy. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 8 21:40:54 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:40:54 -0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:15 AM +0800 3/9/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to >probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" >collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > >Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to >be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. If you're primarily interested in DEC stuff, a good collection of DEC Handbooks is a must, as is a Doc Set for each of the OS's that you're interested in. If you're into PDP-8's, the 3 Volume -8/e/f/m Maintenance Manual set is excellent as well. Remember any DEC hardware from before the 90's is going to be *well* documented, if you can find copies of the books! >p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > >/wai-sun I've got the TV Typewriter book, and I think some other stuff by him, and as a DEC collector it's only of mild interest. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:43:05 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:43:05 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:34:48 -0500 (EST), William Donzelli wrote: > Two leap to mind: > > IBM's Early Computers > IBM's System 360 and Early 370 Computers > Good suggestions. Thanks. I'm seriously lacking intellectually in the mainframes arena... :-) p.s. Do these include the early IC technologies (SLT, etc.) that IBM used to build the 360s with? /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:53:10 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:53:10 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:40:54 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:15 AM +0800 3/9/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > >I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > >probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > >collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > > >Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > >be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. > > If you're primarily interested in DEC stuff, a good collection of DEC > Handbooks is a must, as is a Doc Set for each of the OS's that you're Yeah. I do have a growing collection of handbooks. But I'm missing on the peripherals side for the mid-70s; i.e. between 75-79. Do you have surplus? > interested in. If you're into PDP-8's, the 3 Volume -8/e/f/m I have printed vol1 from bitsavers. The few that came up on ePay was way out of my budget. I did, however scarfed an original vol2. I also noticed that vol3 in bitsavers are not really complete though...but good enough for a working copy I suppose. The 8/m/e/f engineering docs are also something that I have been searching for 1 year plus already...all the usual places don't have it. And the only person I know who has it doesn't have a scanner.. :-) Can anyone contribute the 8/e/m schematics to bitsavers? > Maintenance Manual set is excellent as well. Remember any DEC > hardware from before the 90's is going to be *well* documented, if > you can find copies of the books! > > >p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > > >/wai-sun > > I've got the TV Typewriter book, and I think some other stuff by him, > and as a DEC collector it's only of mild interest. Ah. But I'm also an electronics tinkerer too.... :-) /wai-sun From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Mar 8 21:55:54 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:55:54 -0500 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200503082255.54657.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 March 2005 18:29, Jim Beacon wrote: > > The later versions of the 3.5" use3d a higher coercivity disk, and > > held 1.4M, instead of the previous 720K. > > There were some other variations of the 3.5" physical case, > > including a 2.8M Berrium-Ferrite disk, and 20M Flopticals. > > > > -- > > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > > Does anyone have one of the IBM 2.88M 3.5" devices - we had a couple > of PS2 machines with these in at work, but the drives disappeared > (replaced with 1.44M units). IBM apparently used up their surplus of them on microchannel RS/6000s, I've got a bunch of them from RS/6000 machines. Unfortunately, they're pinned out like PS/2 drives (power on the 34-pin ribbon) instead of a separate power connector, but it's not terribly difficult to make up an appropriate adaptor. Send me mail off-list if you want one. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 8 21:58:40 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:58:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Good suggestions. Thanks. > I'm seriously lacking intellectually in the mainframes arena... :-) > > p.s. Do these include the early IC technologies (SLT, etc.) that IBM > used to build the 360s with? Yes, all your previous questions about SLT would have been answered. The nice thing about these books is the quality of research - sources galore. The history is pretty well covered - why choices were made in the design of the machines, who was involved, and alternatives that just did not make it. Plus some really geeky pictures of Amdahl and Shugart. The bad thing is that the books are sometimes hard to find. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 21:59:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:59:43 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another general-skills must have... "PET and the IEEE 488 Bus (GPIB)" (Eudgen Fisher, C.W. Jensen, 1980, McGraw-Hill Inc. ISBN: 0-93198803104) Yes, it's written from the point of view of interfacing a PET and understanding how a PET talks on the bus, but there's _lots_ of info about how the bus works in general, IMHO enough information to be able to build a device of your own from scratch that would be able to talk to a PET, et al. For DEC application of this book, remember that a IBV11 card (IEEE-488) was standard on a MINC laboratory computer (11/03 or 11/23-based, running RT-11) -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 22:04:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:04:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Wai-Sun wrote: > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. Here are some that I highly recommend. My own interests are heavily focused on pre-1980 system architecture and hardware design. General: IBM's Early Computers, by Charles J. Bashe et al., MIT Press IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems, by Emerson W. Pugh et al., MIT Press A History of Personal Workstations, by Adele Goldberg et al., Addison-Wesley A History of Modern Computing, by Paul E. Ceruzzi, MIT Press Very technical: Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press Computer Architecture: Concepts and Evolution, by Blaauw and Brooks, Addison-Wesley (>1200 page hardcover single volume, but apparently sometimes found in two volumes instead. Includes very detailed architectural info on many systems.) Computer Structures: Readings and Examples, by C. Gordon Bell et al., McGraw-Hill Computer Structures: Principles and Examples, by D. Siewiorek et al., McGraw-Hill (This is sort of a second edition of Readings and Examples, but I recommend getting both as each have some unique material.) Planning a Computer System: Project Stretch, by Werner Buchholz et al., McGraw-Hill (How, What and Why of the IBM 7030 Data Processing System, aka "Stretch". Good insight into what computer architects were thinking about in the late 1950s and very early 1960s. Some ideas are dated, but some are still remarkably current.) Design of a Computer: The Control Data 6600, by Jim Thornton, Scott, Foresman & Company (available online at bitsavers.org) Computer System Organization: The B5700/B6700 Series, by E. Organick, Academic Press From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 8 22:02:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:02:12 -0700 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422E7544.3020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: >Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics" > >I have the student guide (a soft-cover companion volume), but not the >primary book itself. I did have access to one for the entire time I >was at the Pole. Read it cover to cover 3 times. > >Can't wait to find one that I can afford to buy. > >-ethan > > One book I wish they had is "Just what do you call that?", in the sence I am doing a bit of homebrewing and have not the foggiest idea of just what connectors, nuts, bolts, clips and cable for computer hardware is called. Well I need a dozen of umm them ... Or tables like what hole size do I need for that connector or wire gage in the PCB layout . Ben Alias Woodelf PS: Now that you are back in the real world will you be doing any spring cleaning and have stuff for sale? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 8 22:08:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:08:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65345.64.139.41.130.1110341307.squirrel@64.139.41.130> William wrote: > IBM's Early Computers > IBM's System 360 and Early 370 Computers > [...] I hope the same guys continue on... Memories That Shaped an Industry: Decisions Leading to IBM System/360, by Emerson W. Pugh Building IBM: Shaping an Industry and Its Technology, by Emerson W. Pugh From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:10:15 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:10:15 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:37:25 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics" > > I have the student guide (a soft-cover companion volume), but not the > primary book itself. I did have access to one for the entire time I > was at the Pole. Read it cover to cover 3 times. Yeah. That's the electronics geek bible. I bit the bullet and bought it a couple of years back when I was even poorer. Cost me a pretty penny..had to sacrifice some "luxuries" in order to afford it..like food. But I have never regretted buying it. :-) *pops over to amazon* it still costs $55.79 (new) today. I suppose good stuff won't come cheap... /ws From mcesari at comcast.net Tue Mar 8 22:26:03 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:26:03 -0700 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> On Mar 8, 2005, at 8:15 PM, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. > > p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > /wai-sun > "The Art of Digital Design", Prosser & Winkel (isbn 0-13-046780-4) Out of print, but you can often find copies on amazon and abebooks.com It leads you to two different PDP-8 designs - one purely combinatorial and the other microprogrammed (2901-based). Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:27:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:27:07 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:10:15 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Yeah. That's the electronics geek bible. > I bit the bullet and bought it a couple of years back when I was even poorer. > Cost me a pretty penny..had to sacrifice some "luxuries" in order to > afford it..like food. > > But I have never regretted buying it. :-) I feel the same way about my copy of "Computer Networks" by Andy Tanenbaum (of Minix fame)... really good stuff in there. > *pops over to amazon* it still costs $55.79 (new) today. I suppose > good stuff won't come cheap... That's not a bad price, really. Less than I paid for either my "Minix" or "Computer Networks" book. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:29:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:29:34 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:26:03 -0700, Mike Cesari wrote: > "The Art of Digital Design", Prosser & Winkel (isbn 0-13-046780-4) > Out of print, but you can often find copies on amazon and abebooks.com > > It leads you to two different PDP-8 designs - one purely combinatorial > and the other microprogrammed (2901-based). That sounds like a hoot... I'm big on 12 bits, and I have a few 2901s in my parts bin... -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 8 22:31:41 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:31:41 -0700 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <05cb01c52431$3a9703a0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> <05cb01c52431$3a9703a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <422E7C2D.3060705@mdrconsult.com> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 5:26 PM > Subject: Re: List etiquette > >>Apparently I am still subscribed to this list though I asked to be > > unsubscribed. > >>But since I am still here, you wrote, and I quote, >> >>Please unsubscribe me from this list, I say again. >> > > Get out the bell,book and candle someone. I keep looking to see if it's September already. Doc From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 8 22:33:07 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:33:07 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing References: Message-ID: <01c201c52461$186f4460$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Just scratching the surface... "Digital at Work", by Jamie Parker Pearson, ed. the best single history of Digital. "A Computer Perspective", by Eames cool illustrated Timeline that was sponsored by IBM. "Computer Lib / Dream Machines" by Ted Nelson about computing in the 1970's by the hypertext guy. "Digital Deli" by Steve Ditlea gets into deeper detail than Nelson's work. "A guide to collecting computers and computer collectibles", by Kevin Stumpf. quirky, quirky. remember: "Collectible Microcomputers", by Michael Nadeau "Planning A Computer System" as was just mentioned is an excellent find. John A. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 8 22:39:23 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:39:23 -0700 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <422E7DFB.1070006@mdrconsult.com> Jim Beacon wrote: > Does anyone have one of the IBM 2.88M 3.5" devices - we had a couple of PS2 > machines with these in at work, but the drives disappeared (replaced with > 1.44M units). I have a couple of the IBM 2.88MB drives here & there, but I believe they're all in RS/6000 systems, and at least one in an Alpha. I disremember whether any of the PS/2s I have have one. I've never seen a "3MB" floppy disk though. Doc From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:40:57 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:40:57 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:04:01 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Very technical: > > Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, > by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press > This is one of my prized collection. I fought a blood-feud auction and won it a couple of years ago. I forgot the final price but I think it was $70++ :-p *sigh* the obsession... *shakes head* *grabs the copy* *caresses it* /ws From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 22:44:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:44:46 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:26:03 -0700, Mike Cesari wrote: > "The Art of Digital Design", Prosser & Winkel (isbn 0-13-046780-4) > Out of print, but you can often find copies on amazon and abebooks.com And I just did... ordered it, too. Thanks for the tip. -ethan From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 22:51:15 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:51:15 -0600 Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <422E80C3.7010800@pacbell.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > It's nutjob-expensive, if you ask me - but the guy's 2 - one he's > epaying alone ($50 USD opening bid, BIN for $75) and he's got another > complete machine with the BASIC ROM in it for $115 BIN, IIRC. No bids on > either one... should I snag the ROM to make backups of it? :-O > > Will another chance come along like this at all??? > > Anyone wanna go in with me on it? *I gotz the Eproms...* I got the impression that the seller is himself minting these eproms -- he is probably found the one guy who had the BASIC eprom. I've seen a few of these already listed in the past month or so. He might even be a list member still, I know he has been in the past -- mike davis. From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 8 22:51:23 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:51:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309045124.80663.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Kevin's book is out of print, however, I've been talking with him lately about posting it on the newsletter web site. I should know more in the next week or two and will announce it here. - Evan > > "A guide to collecting computers and computer collectibles", > by Kevin Stumpf. quirky, quirky. Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 8 22:47:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:47:33 -0700 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <422E7FE5.6070407@jetnet.ab.ca> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:04:01 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > > >>Very technical: >> >> Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, >> by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press >> >> >> >This is one of my prized collection. I fought a blood-feud auction and >won it a couple of years ago. I forgot the final price but I think it >was $70++ :-p > >*sigh* the obsession... *shakes head* >*grabs the copy* *caresses it* > >/ws > > Some of Bell's books are online, that is how I got to read them. Ben alias woodelf. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Mar 8 22:59:42 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:59:42 -0600 Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: <8e338f6f754ddc8cb930842cadc2c8d5@sbcglobal.net> References: <8e338f6f754ddc8cb930842cadc2c8d5@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <422E82BE.8060303@pacbell.net> Ron Hudson wrote: ... > If the desert island has vines you could make a rope computer, as > described in a > Scientific American, I don't remember the issue. It was an april fool's issue, I believe. If memory serves, the island was called APRLFUL or something like that. The article showed how, with clever arrangements pullies, toggles, springs and such, inverters and simple logic gates could be produced. Entertaining enough. The problem with that "computer" is that the logic gates have no gain. Each gate has no power supply other than the mechanical power of the input signals (ropes getting pulled). For instance, say you pull an input rope of a NAND gate one foot (OK, let's keep it metric) ten inches :-) and the output rope moves nine inches, so the gain is 0.9. Put N of these gates in series and the output signal is (0.9**N) of the input signal. After half a dozen gates, very little is left at the output. The rope gates had a gain much less than 0.9 -- probably 0.5. It is the same reason why computers aren't built of of just diodes and resistors. You can have a gate or two in series, but then the signal needs to be reconditioned before being applied to the next stage. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 8 23:02:41 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:02:41 -0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:53 AM +0800 3/9/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >Yeah. I do have a growing collection of handbooks. But I'm missing on >the peripherals side for the mid-70s; i.e. between 75-79. Do you have >surplus? I did, but gave them to someone that lost all of his in a fire a few years ago. > > interested in. If you're into PDP-8's, the 3 Volume -8/e/f/m > >I have printed vol1 from bitsavers. The few that came up on ePay was >way out of my budget. I did, however scarfed an original vol2. I also >noticed that vol3 in bitsavers are not really complete though...but >good enough for a working copy I suppose. Something worth keeping in mind is that different "versions" are seriously different in size! The set that goes with my -8/e is a *lot* larger than the set for the -8/m. >The 8/m/e/f engineering docs are also something that I have been >searching for 1 year plus already...all the usual places don't have >it. And the only person I know who has it doesn't have a scanner.. :-) > Can anyone contribute the 8/e/m schematics to bitsavers? Aren't most of the schematics on one of the PDP-8 sites? They were a few years ago (I hope they still are, as I never slurped the site). >Ah. But I'm also an electronics tinkerer too.... :-) In that case, Ethan's suggestion of the "Art of Electronics" is a good one for you. Great book, I only wish I had time to study it, I've had to give up on such things though do to lack of time (for that matter I've had to largely give up on playing with old computers as well). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 8 23:04:23 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:04:23 -0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:34 PM -0500 3/8/05, William Donzelli wrote: >Two leap to mind: > >IBM's Early Computers >IBM's System 360 and Early 370 Computers > >These are both very serious works. > >I hope the same guys continue on... Serious is an understatement, I was lucky enough to pick up the 360/370 book. It's a "weighty" volume to say the least. Highly recommended! I'll have to keep my eye out for the other one. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Mar 8 23:05:26 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:05:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Questions In-Reply-To: <100.ed0993a.2f5f1327@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks to all who had suggestions! The problem turned out to be the contactor for the distributor clutch trip mechanism (the little ivory-colored contact arm just above the distributor clutch), which had been jolted just far enough towards the rear of the unit that it couldn't do its job. Amazingly, Vince Slyngstad picked out the cause in a single guess. :) I'm still running it through its paces, but so far it looks like the Teletype is in good shape. Thus far I'm still doing the Happy Dance. :) ...CPUMECH at aol.com wrote: > I have a reader power supply for the 33, you can have it for $20 + shipping. > Also have a copy holder that I'll throw in. [...] I've sent an e-mail your way. I'll take you up on this cheerfully. :) Thanks again to all! -O.- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:07:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:07:10 -0500 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: <422E7C2D.3060705@mdrconsult.com> References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> <05cb01c52431$3a9703a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <422E7C2D.3060705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:31:41 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > I keep looking to see if it's September already. It's always September, somewhere on the 'net. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 8 23:26:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:26:26 -0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> Message-ID: At 11:44 PM -0500 3/8/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:26:03 -0700, Mike Cesari wrote: >> "The Art of Digital Design", Prosser & Winkel (isbn 0-13-046780-4) >> Out of print, but you can often find copies on amazon and abebooks.com > >And I just did... ordered it, too. Thanks for the tip. Grumble... You wouldn't believe how long it took me to get my copy!!! I've got some more books along this line, unfortunately they're all up in storage right now. My favorite is one that gives a bunch of juicy details on the CPU design of various Mini's of the 70's. I'm "lucky" enough to live close enough to "Powell's Technical Books" that I make it down there once or twice a year, and I love to browse their section of historical computing books (50's and 60's). I've found many cool books there. BTW, I say "lucky" because a trip to Powell's Technical is typically very expensive :^) I'd recommend anyone visiting the Portland area stop in at the Technical store at a minimum (the main bookstore a couple blocks away can be an all day trip). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 8 23:23:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:23:24 -0700 Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: <422E82BE.8060303@pacbell.net> References: <8e338f6f754ddc8cb930842cadc2c8d5@sbcglobal.net> <422E82BE.8060303@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <422E884C.6030803@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > > ... > >> If the desert island has vines you could make a rope computer, as >> described in a >> Scientific American, I don't remember the issue. > > > It was an april fool's issue, I believe. If memory serves, the island > was called APRLFUL or something like that. The article showed how, > with clever arrangements pullies, toggles, springs and such, inverters > and simple logic gates could be produced. Entertaining enough. > > The problem with that "computer" is that the logic gates have no gain. > What you want is 'reversable logic'. Mechanical logic may make a come back in computing since moliecular sized logic can use very little power. Ben alias woodelf From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:31:38 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:31:38 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. I have: VAX Architecture Reference Manual (1987) The visible Computer: 8088 (1986) The 8088 Project Book (1989) iAPX88 Book (1983) vax, 9000 > > p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > /wai-sun > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Mar 8 23:51:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:51:40 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 March 2005 23:40, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:04:01 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > > Very technical: > > > > Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, > > by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press > > This is one of my prized collection. I fought a blood-feud auction > and won it a couple of years ago. I forgot the final price but I > think it was $70++ :-p > > *sigh* the obsession... *shakes head* > *grabs the copy* *caresses it* That's ok, you'll be glad to know I just purchased a copy on amazon for about $7.50 :) There are some books I gladly paid $$big_bux for, including the W. Richard Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1, Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment, and his Unix Network Programming (vol 1 & 2) books. Must haves, IMHO, for anyone doing programming on Unix/Linux machines, and still in print. :) Most of my vintage computer books & manuals I've been lucky enough to grab either cheaply ($5-$10) or as they were being thrown out. A proper VMS grey or orange wall is a necessity for any VAX-ite. Mine is orange. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Mar 8 23:53:59 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:53:59 -0800 Subject: RLL vs. MFM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308215119.0213ac10@mail.zipcon.net> At 04:53 PM 3/8/2005, you wrote: >Some people even did it on purpose, back in the day... I remember >people putting a >Seagate ST-238R on an MFM controller and getting the expected 21.4MB. The >reason for doing it on purpose was to de-rate the drive in the >expectation of fewer >bad blocks, and longer-term reliability. Dunno if that really works, >but at the time, >there was this expectation that it should work, certainly better than >trying to format >an ST-225 as if it were an ST-238R. (I think it was assumed that Seagate >already >had qualified their own platters and labelled the drives accordingly) i used to get burnt up 225's for free from a local shop and replace the amplifier chip on them (think it was an amp, i don't remember for certain anymore) the chip just cuoldn't handle the higher frequency and datarate that the drive was subjected to if run RLL, heck they chips fried themselves eventually if you ran them MFM, the bloody think needed heatsinked, but it was on the side of hte PCB against the bottom of the drive.... From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 00:03:33 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:03:33 +0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:51:40 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > That's ok, you'll be glad to know I just purchased a copy on amazon for > about $7.50 :) Yeah. Thanks....NOT *the pain* Note to self: Forget eBay when it comes to books. Amazon prices for used books are much better. > > There are some books I gladly paid $$big_bux for, including the W. > Richard Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1, Advanced Programming in the > Unix Environment, and his Unix Network Programming (vol 1 & 2) books. > Must haves, IMHO, for anyone doing programming on Unix/Linux machines, > and still in print. :) Oooh the guru himself. :-) Yeah I have those too. Saving for the new (posthumous) edition. > > Most of my vintage computer books & manuals I've been lucky enough to > grab either cheaply ($5-$10) or as they were being thrown out. A > proper VMS grey or orange wall is a necessity for any VAX-ite. Mine is > orange. :) What existed before the orange wall? /wai-sun From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 00:07:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:07:24 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:51:40 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, > > > by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press > > That's ok, you'll be glad to know I just purchased a copy on amazon for > about $7.50 :) I think Gordon Bell has made that one available on-line. > There are some books I gladly paid $$big_bux for, including the W. > Richard Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1, Advanced Programming in the > Unix Environment, and his Unix Network Programming (vol 1 & 2) books. > Must haves, IMHO, for anyone doing programming on Unix/Linux machines, > and still in print. :) Agreed... those are important books for anyone who does serious UNIX programming. I have copies, too... bought new for $$$. > Most of my vintage computer books & manuals I've been lucky enough to > grab either cheaply ($5-$10) or as they were being thrown out. A > proper VMS grey or orange wall is a necessity for any VAX-ite. Mine is > orange. :) Nice. I have an orange _and_ a grey wall... courtesy of a former employer (plus RSTS, RSX, RT-11, and a shelf of VMS 1.0 manuals waiting for Bob Supnik to finish his VAX-11/780 emulator that's being done for the express purpose of being able to run VMS 1.0) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 00:10:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:10:19 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:03:33 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > A proper VMS grey or orange wall is a necessity for any VAX-ite. Mine is > > orange. :) > > What existed before the orange wall? It was blue and it wasn't quite so wall-sized. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 9 00:11:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:11:08 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200503090111.08490.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 09 March 2005 01:03, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:51:40 -0500, Patrick Finnegan > wrote: > > A proper VMS grey or orange wall is a necessity for any VAX-ite. > > Mine is orange. :) > > What existed before the orange wall? An empty bookcase? :) I've got RSX-11 and RT-11 stuff that's in orange binders as well. I'm not sure what was before that; it may have only been bound books, but I don't have any DEC docs that are pre-orange binder and aren't soft-cover bound. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 01:00:51 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:00:51 +0800 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: References: <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:59:58 -0800, vrs wrote: > > I also have one complete drawing for an RX8E replica (quad height), but I > haven't built one. Hey, that's interesting! How much do you think it'd cost to build one? /ws From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 9 01:08:00 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:08:00 -0800 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <200503090111.08490.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200503090111.08490.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: >I've got RSX-11 and RT-11 stuff that's in orange binders as well. I'm >not sure what was before that; it may have only been bound books, but I >don't have any DEC docs that are pre-orange binder and aren't >soft-cover bound. RT-11 V3 is dark blue, V4 and V5 are orange. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 9 00:59:13 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:59:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <01C523F6.07B5A940@H71.C223.tor.velocet.net> References: <01C523F6.07B5A940@H71.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: <200503090710.CAA15116@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Since _he_'s not going to get your reply (unless you CC'd him?), Right, I did. The list seems to have stripped the contents of the Cc: header, but not completely removed it, at least to judge by the copy that landed in my own mailbox. I suppose I have/had some faint hope that having that message in the archives will help forestall the _next_ such question. > I'll send him the info, but if I were he and saw your reply in the > archives I'd promptly unsubscribe and find some other place to > discuss my classic computers. Perhaps. But it does seem to me that the level of unawareness indicated by such a question greatly increases the probability that the person will turn out to be someone the list is better off without. Still and all, your remarks are noted; cluestickings are...well, not *welcome*, exactly, but I do appreciate being made aware of it when someone thinks I've overstepped boundaries. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 9 01:27:31 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 02:27:31 -0500 Subject: Digging, Digging... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050309021404.05276ed8@mail.30below.com> Went digging in the attic again, mainly looking for my serial EPROM burner which has the built-in eraser... and I found a goodly chunk of everything but. :-/ However, I did find my HHC, no power supply. It takes a rather odd critter, too; 9V DC ; and I believe the correct terminology is called "Drum Positive" i.e. on the outside connection of the barrel connector. Most barrel connector PSs have the ground on the outer conductor to help protect it from shorting out; the Tandy 10x/200 are also notable in being wired "drum positive." As I just got done hooking up my Xeltek Superpro L EPROM burner, it's sitting on my desk, with the PS sitting on top of my PC case -- I take a look at the sucker -- *Exactly* what the HHC needs! :-O I check the connector - perfect fit! OK Everybody! Let's all collectively watch Tony jump out of his skin! ;-) I plugged the sucker in, to see if it worked! It does! I set the time, and it keeps between short unplugs (had to test a few ROMs, you know... ;-). I'm guessing the NiCds won't hold much of a charge at all, tho. It's got a smokin' 4K RAM - any upgrades for that, or was that all you got? =-=-=-=-= Found my PC-DOS 7 diskettes - prolly set up a second virtual PC to test 'em out... (it's ontopic this year...) =-=-=-=-= Found lots of my CoCo stuff, I'm trying to get back into that... =-=-=-=-= More shiznit later, but if I don't find my eprom eraser soon, whomever would be willing to burn me a copy of that BASIC might get his/her for free... ;-) Time for bed, gotta be up in a few hours anyway... Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Mar 9 02:29:39 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:29:39 +0100 Subject: 8' drive on PC troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <004101c52482$23ef9760$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Tony Duell" > > Be sure to check the labels on the stepper motor. Some years ago I had a > > brief "aquintance" with a SSSD drive from Control Data. I binned it > > immediately, as it showed that the steppermotor needed 115VAC ! > > Never! I've enver seen am 8" drive with anything but a 24V stepper motor. > I could very well be mistaken about stepper motor and the other one. I have a few digital cassette drives for the P6000 series, if you can use one. Nico From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Mar 9 03:09:53 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:09:53 +0000 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:32:59 EST." Message-ID: <200503090909.JAA01920@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ethan Dicks said: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:22:35 -0700, woodelf wrote: > > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > > > > > http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html > > Is that an Intercept Jr? Sure looks like it. Handy that LEDs don't > fog paper. :-) > > It reminds me of an article I saw, with software, for hanging a relay > off of the Q-line of an 1802 on an original PopTronics Elf for use as > an enlarger timer. You set the time on the toggles, fired up the CPU, > and used the IN button to fire the enlarger for a preset number of > seconds. > > Given how much enlarger timers were 30 years ago, this was an > effective use of a $100 computer. Kinda still is. They _were_ expensive back then, being a hardware type I built my own about 25 years ago. It divided the 50Hz mains frequency down to 1 Hz and fed that to a pair of bcd counters with the count set by thumb-wheel switches (with a red led to illuminate them...). It's still in use controlling my Americam-made Omega emlarger of the same vintage. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 9 03:16:50 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:16:50 -0000 Subject: DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size? In-Reply-To: <200503071939.j27Jd0ku006682@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <005501c52488$bb1c3f70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >> anyone here know anything about the physical dimensions of >> UNIBUS and Q-BUS boards? I'd like to know, that's all. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/UnibusSpec1979.pdf There's something very good for BA200 Q-bus systems that tells you pretty much everything you need to know. I have it and I've scanned it and Manx should find it, but I cannot remember the exact title :-( Something like BA200 Series Module Design Guide *should8 find it, but does not ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 9 04:12:05 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:12:05 -0500 Subject: WANTED: Commodore PET ROM. Message-ID: <01C52466.8ADC88A0@H75.C223.tor.velocet.net> -----------------Original Message: From: steven stengel Subject: FREE: Toaster video tapes (copies). WANTED: Commodore PET ROM. ...... Also, I need ROM 016 for my "chicklet" PET 2001. Any givers? Steve. -----------------Reply: Maybe; can't put my hands on my spare ROMs at the moment, but when I find 'em, I'll let you know. Meanwhile, please confirm that that's a 6540-016 (Basic I, H4) and not a 901439-16 (Basic II, H6), off-list please. But I'd recommend what Dave suggested and replace it (or the whole set) with EPROMS if you have the facilities or know someone who does; 6540s were notoriously flaky in the long term, might not be long before another one goes bad, and you could upgrade the Basic at the same time. mike From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 9 04:44:11 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 02:44:11 -0800 Subject: RX8E Replacements (was DEC UNI/Q-BUS board physical size?) References: <200503082032.j28KW5oD011864@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > > I also have one complete drawing for an RX8E replica (quad height), but I > > haven't built one. > > Hey, that's interesting! > How much do you think it'd cost to build one? The problem with the straight replica is that the parts for an RX8E have become unobtanium. I do have an adaptation of the RX8E for modern components and Posibus. I have built one of those (but it has nothing to do with DEC board physical sizes). Another list member and I are hoping to get around to debugging the prototypes "real soon". You'd need an M8350 (or Posibus PDP-8) for one of those. Another possibility would be to "fix up" the RX8E with modern (well, obtainable anyway) chips, and make that. (But I like the Posibus idea better, as more PDP-8s can play.) As to the cost, it's pretty reasonable. Could probably be done for about $12-$15 or so per board, in reasonable quantity (say, 30 units). Plus parts, shipping, etc. probably still under $50. (We paid more for the prototypes, but then we didn't spread the cost over 30 units, either.) Vince By the way, you seem to be generating a redundant "Reply-To:" header on your mail to cctalk. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 05:52:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:52:04 +0000 Subject: List etiquette In-Reply-To: References: <01C52144.8D5E7E00@ns1.syne-post.com> <05cb01c52431$3a9703a0$0200a8c0@geoff> <422E7C2D.3060705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1110369124.2728.22.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 00:07 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:31:41 -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I keep looking to see if it's September already. > > It's always September, somewhere on the 'net. So it's just our turn? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 05:54:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:54:01 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110369241.2728.25.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 23:53 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Can you make batteries from bamboo though? > > Any fruit around? 2 differnet metals in a bit of fruit makes a crude > electrochemical cell.... I don't think there's even any metal around. Just sand and bamboo... Mind you, that might make cutting bamboo difficult. Maybe you get a saw. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 9 05:58:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:58:33 +0000 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <422E620B.8080006@oldskool.org> References: <20050308123752.NDFA25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <422E620B.8080006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1110369513.2709.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: > http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 9 07:19:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 05:19:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <1110369513.2709.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: > > http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi > > How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel > port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... It doesn't work over the parallel port: it uses the actual PC floppy drive to read GCR disks natively using an incredibly clever trick. Read the information in the downloads on how it works. You can get the trial version for free, but it requires two drives to work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From martinm at allwest.net Wed Mar 9 07:50:01 2005 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:50:01 -0700 Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050308192717.0530df00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <422EFF09.2010205@allwest.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Good news: the EPROMs I have are from straight from HHCs and are built > into the carrier. Just plug and go. ;-) I just happen to have a metric > buttload of 'em as well! > > Better news: I was hoping not to pay $75 for buy-it-now, so I just put > the $50 bid on it hoping no-one else would bid. The guy ended the > auction early, so it's mine! $55 shipped, and already paid for. ;-) I'll kick in. too, for one or two Basic EPROMs. I can send my own EPROMs and carriers (the insurance software on them does not interest me). Let me know how much $, where to send and how to send. Thanks, Martin From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 9 08:36:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:36:02 -0500 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050309093602.009268f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:26 PM 3/8/05 -0800, Zane wrote: > >I'm "lucky" enough to live close enough to "Powell's Technical Books" >that I make it down there once or twice a year, and I love to browse >their section of historical computing books (50's and 60's). I've >found many cool books there. BTW, I say "lucky" because a trip to >Powell's Technical is typically very expensive :^) I'd recommend >anyone visiting the Portland area stop in at the Technical store at a >minimum (the main bookstore a couple blocks away can be an all day >trip). Zane is right, if you ever get to Portland make sure you leave time to visit Powells. It's WELL worth the trip. FWIW several of the countys in this area operate stores where they sell used, obselete and/or donated library books. I've found lots of good books there for almost nothing. Finds include HP-41 manuals, 'IBM's Early Computers', 'TV Typewriter', numberous DEC manuals, lots of old CPM and early MS-DOS manauls and software, LOADS of data books, etc etc. Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design'. Hmmm. I was getting ready to put some books on E-bay and I have an extra copy of Mick & brick. I think I'll throw it on there too. Let's see, I also have 'LSI PDP 11/03 Processor Handbook' and 'VAX Technical Summary' that I don't need. I'll throw them on there too. Joe From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 9 09:37:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:37:48 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422F184C.5010309@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>>Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: >>>http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi >> >>How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel >>port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... > > It doesn't work over the parallel port: it uses the actual PC floppy drive > to read GCR disks natively using an incredibly clever trick. Read the Right, it uses actual PC floppy drives connected with a special cable (very simple to wire up) that connects it to the parallel port. Essentially, the parallel port becomes a high-speed floppy controller. It is done this way because the regular floppy controller can't do some of the things that are required to 100% exactly image a diskette (like pass all of the information off the controller). > information in the downloads on how it works. You can get the trial > version for free, but it requires two drives to work. Yes, and the two-drives thing is something that is one of the most clever hacks I've ever seen -- you can't get the floppy controller to pass all bits through to the CPU to write to a hard disk file, but you CAN use a pass-through method of the controller to write them to sectors on a formatted diskette on another drive. When done, the program then writes a FAT to the diskette and assigns a file to where the sectors were written. Seems like a kludge but is actually kind-of brilliant. I should note that, since FDI images are 100% exact bitwise dumps, they aren't exactly easy to read (they're not nice clean formatted-track-and-sector images) so getting them translated back to an actual floppy diskette is not currently possible (since nobody has written the software to do so yet). However, they can be parsed: WinUAE has native support for FDI images and they work fine. I personally verified this by dumping a copy-protected Amiga game disk (on my PC, how strange!) and then mounting and booting off of the .FDI image. Worked perfectly, copy-protection and all. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 9 09:39:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:39:32 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <1110369513.2709.29.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050308123752.NDFA25598.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <422E620B.8080006@oldskool.org> <1110369513.2709.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <422F18B4.2070409@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: >>http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi > > How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel > port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... Not all are, but a few can. I believe the website has suggestions on $15 PCI parallel port cards that are known to work. The distribution also has a speed testing utility (doesn't require a cable to run). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 9 09:58:05 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:58:05 -0500 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing Message-ID: <30e4a9830e3f88.30e3f8830e4a98@optonline.net> > Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor > Design'. Hmmm. I was getting ready to put some books on E-bay and > I have an extra copy of Mick & brick. I think I'll throw it on there too. > Let's see, I also have 'LSI PDP 11/03 Processor Handbook' and 'VAX >Technical Summary' that I don't need. I'll throw them on > there too. Or you could offer them to list members (for a reasonable price.....) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 9 10:00:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:00:28 -0600 Subject: ok listen up (LIST ADMIN) Message-ID: <008b01c524c1$1fd94d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have truly HAD ENOUGH. This was brought to a head by the fact that one of the most active list moderators has just resigned, specifically due to the excessive off-topicness (or more precisely, the amount of time necessary to moderate the off-topicness). Here is a snippet of his email to me: "I'm sorry, but I'm horrified by the state of my Inbox. ...snip... but I am no longer prepared to wade through the slew of offtopic sh** in order to forward the good stuff to cctech. I've just totted up over 160 offtopic posts from the past few days, on picking locks, gravity, merits of running your own mail server, mail vs NNTP vs forums, people's ages, and even installing Windows XP, for f***'s sake." We're losing a very dedicated person, for a very bad reason (I'm not saying he isn't justified, I'm saying it sucks to lose someone for this). Ya'll owe him a HUGE amount of thanks, and I daresay an apology. Now, before you go on and on about "some off-topicness" is ok on cctalk, let me explain something. The current setup where the list moderators manually read every post on cctalk and individually route select "on-topic" messages to cctech is made extremely time-consuming when there is a significant amount of off-topicness. I would easily bet that the list moderators spend an hour a day, seven days a week, sifting through all the messages one at a time. This means a few people are paying a very high price so that you can get wildly off-topic. The thing that truly irks me about this is I'm spending a lot of time on list infrastructure and such - trying to get to reworking the faq and cleaning up the archives - and the LAST thing I have time to do right now is start doing most of the moderation. My pinball machine known as "life" is screaming "TILT". I do NOT want to see a huge string of posts to the list with a subject of "Re: ok listen up". This isn't open for public discussion any longer. This list was entrusted to me years ago to take care of and I'll be damned if I'm going to see it degenerate. I love this hobby and this forum way too much for that. My current thought is this: Make cctech the main list. It will be rigorously moderated, anything posted there that isn't strictly on topic will be bounced. cctalk will become the list for discussion of the list itself, and will no longer be a place to post anything technical. It will be unmoderated except for personal flames, politics, etc. You can consider it "the water cooler". While it's primary purpose will be for discussion about list features, etc. you can also just banter with your friends. The key difference is that it won't be for discussion of technical/vintage computer items. People may get trounced on for posting technical discussion to it, instead of to cctech. Then I'll also probably create a classiccmp-announce list, to announce any changes that are implemented based on cctalk discussions. The above isn't a final decision yet. I'm perfectly willing to entertain other ideas - OFF LIST. If you have a concern, want to express some thoughts, just email me directly, I'm very willing to listen. So, you may ask... how is this different from the current setup? On the surface, the only difference is cctalk won't be for any direct computer discussion any longer and posts from cctalk will never make it to cctech. But under the hood... I'll tell you what the difference is - instead of moderators having to wade through the crap to gate stuff to cctech, YOU will have to do YOUR part to make sure you post to the right list with a given post. It's time to shift the workload people. I'll listen to off-list input for a few days, but then I'll act because I don't want this snowballing. Regards (and don't you dare hit reply to the list on this), Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 9 10:14:02 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:14:02 -0800 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050309093602.009268f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> <3.0.6.32.20050309093602.009268f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >visit Powells. It's WELL worth the trip. FWIW several of the countys in >this area operate stores where they sell used, obselete and/or donated >library books. I've found lots of good books there for almost nothing. I've not had very good luck with Library sales, though I did find an interesting Hardback on Serial cables (basically a book on the various pinouts). Where I've had *very* good luck is with a annual booksale that a local Women's Charity has. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From paulpenn at knology.net Wed Mar 9 10:28:55 2005 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:28:55 -0500 Subject: ok listen up (LIST ADMIN) References: <008b01c524c1$1fd94d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008a01c524c5$16b8e360$6501a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Jay; I think your new split of the lists would be a huge improvement. I also think you, as moderator, need to adopt a new rule: "Praise in public, criticise in private." Private criticism would also include jumping on anyone who tries to usurp your role as moderator (i.e. Sellam). Raises the whole tone of the list -- it becomes a pleasant place to visit for a few minutes a day. After everyone gets trained, the occasional troll or newby is ignored, which usually pisses them off so much they go away and bother someone else. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 9 10:46:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:46:33 -0500 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <30e4a9830e3f88.30e3f8830e4a98@optonline.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050309114633.009119d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The problem(s) are that (1) I don't know what a reasonale price is (2) there are already a number of people that want them and who's to say which one should get them. It's just easier to put them on E-bay and let the market sort it out. Did you get the OS-78 manual and disks that I sent? I kept the boxs so the disk are loose in the package (and inside bubble wrap) but I separated them into groups and stuck them in different places in the manual so be careful when you unwrap it. There are also two disks that I found on the floor. I don't know what's on then and they bent up and dirty so you may not want to put them in a drive but I'll leave that up to you. Joe At 10:58 AM 3/9/05 -0500, D Corbin wrote: >> Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor >> Design'. Hmmm. I was getting ready to put some books on E-bay and >> I have an extra copy of Mick & brick. I think I'll throw it on there too. >> Let's see, I also have 'LSI PDP 11/03 Processor Handbook' and 'VAX >Technical Summary' that I don't need. I'll throw them on >> there too. > > >Or you could offer them to list members (for a reasonable price.....) > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 9 11:09:26 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:09:26 -0600 Subject: Visit from Don Gaubatz Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050309105215.04c72c28@mail> After more than a decade of occasional emails about my Terak Museum http://www.threedee.com/jcm/, yesterday I met with Don Gaubatz . He recently moved from outside Boston to Neenah, WI (45 minutes SE of Green Bay, at the top of that big lake on the left side of WI.) That puts him about two hours from me, or two hours from Madison. Formerly a VP at DEC, his groups in Palo Alto and Maynard delivered workstations based on the MIPS, VAX, and Alpha chips, as well as DEC's first 3D graphics and multimedia peripherals. Earlier at DEC, Gaubatz developed the first Ethernet and disk controllers for the MicroVAX. He's currently a consultant in the semiconductor industry. He's on the editorial board of Microprocessor Report, an semiconductor industry newsletter. He's on the board for NSF's sci-viz center, and a founding member of the Computer History Museum. We talked Terak for a few hours, looking over my docs and assembled hardware. It is always comforting to show my three-floor combo tree-fort / office / storage building and have someone say "Ah, yes, this looks like my place." Don said his computer stuff filled two 28-foot trailers in his move. The visit may spur me to update my inventory lists in order to better share docs and software with other Terak enthusiasts. Don would also like to track down ex-DEC people in Wisconsin, not to mention find the hidden caches of DEC equipment. - John From pds3 at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 9 11:14:14 2005 From: pds3 at ix.netcom.com (pds3 at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:14:14 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Scrapping of DEC Equipment Message-ID: <737245.1110388454804.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hello, I am always interested in all DEC parts. We maintain a large inventory and assist end-users with keeping their legacy systems alive. Please let me know what you have and I will make an offer. Best regards, Shannon Hoskins Pacific Data SYstems 25197 Reeves Road Los Molinos, CA 96055 530/384-2013 shannon at theskybeam.com -----Original Message----- From: James Fogg Sent: Mar 5, 2005 8:09 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Scrapping of DEC Equipment > I am in the process of scrapping out my Telecom gear. I have > some LA 120's and other Dec boards that I will be listing. > The printers are not very economical to ship, so my thoughts > are that there may be some interest in the parts. If that is > the case, please let me know. Where are you located? From pds3 at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 9 11:16:34 2005 From: pds3 at ix.netcom.com (pds3 at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:16:34 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Scrapping of DEC Equipment Message-ID: <25046295.1110388594937.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hello, I am always interested in all DEC gear. We maintain a large inventory of parts and assist customers in keeping their legacy systems alive. Please let me know what you have and I will make an offer. Thank you. Shannon Hoskins Pacific Data Systems 25197 Reeves Road Los Molinos, CA 96055 530/384-2013 shannon at theskybeam.com -----Original Message----- From: Phil Spanner Sent: Mar 5, 2005 6:55 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Scrapping of DEC Equipment Hello All, I am in the process of scrapping out my Telecom gear. I have some LA 120's and other Dec boards that I will be listing. The printers are not very economical to ship, so my thoughts are that there may be some interest in the parts. If that is the case, please let me know. A year or so ago, the folks next door talked about wanting to sell their Dec inventory, test fixtures and prints. Although I did forward all of the info to them, I don't think they did anything with the information. If there is still any interest, please let me know. Thank you. Phil From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 11:24:33 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bamboo computer Message-ID: <200503091724.JAA22269@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Battle" > >Ron Hudson wrote: > >... >> If the desert island has vines you could make a rope computer, as >> described in a >> Scientific American, I don't remember the issue. > >It was an april fool's issue, I believe. If memory serves, the island >was called APRLFUL or something like that. The article showed how, with >clever arrangements pullies, toggles, springs and such, inverters and >simple logic gates could be produced. Entertaining enough. > >The problem with that "computer" is that the logic gates have no gain. > >Each gate has no power supply other than the mechanical power of the >input signals (ropes getting pulled). For instance, say you pull an >input rope of a NAND gate one foot (OK, let's keep it metric) ten inches >:-) and the output rope moves nine inches, so the gain is 0.9. Put N of >these gates in series and the output signal is (0.9**N) of the input >signal. After half a dozen gates, very little is left at the output. >The rope gates had a gain much less than 0.9 -- probably 0.5. > >It is the same reason why computers aren't built of of just diodes and >resistors. You can have a gate or two in series, but then the signal >needs to be reconditioned before being applied to the next stage. > > Hi Relays work great. They have a lot of gain. Maybe much more than is needed for a computer. I've always wanted to build a calculator using marbles that are feed from a hopper and the addition of a manual lever to work as a clock ( and additional power ). Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 12:19:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <200503091819.KAA22333@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >> > Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: >> > http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi >> >> How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel >> port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... > >It doesn't work over the parallel port: it uses the actual PC floppy drive >to read GCR disks natively using an incredibly clever trick. Read the >information in the downloads on how it works. You can get the trial >version for free, but it requires two drives to work. > Hi Wow! Clever trick. Once the controller starts dumping the sector, you just switch drives on it. Running it until it completes. It just thinks it is a big sector. I wish I'd thought of it first. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 12:29:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:29:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing Message-ID: <200503091829.KAA22338@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." ---snip--- > > Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor >Design'. Hmmm. I was getting ready to put some books on E-bay and I have ---snip--- Hi I was digging into some piles of things and came on some data sheets for a few of the 2900 chips. I think I have for the 2901 and 2911, as well as one or two others. If these are not already posted someplace, I can bring them to Al to put on his site. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 12:36:12 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <200503091836.KAA22346@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" > >Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>>Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: >>>http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi >> >> How does that work? From past discussions on this list, the PC parallel >> port isn't fast enough to sample the bitstream from a floppy drive... > >Not all are, but a few can. I believe the website has suggestions on $15 PCI >parallel port cards that are known to work. The distribution also has a speed >testing utility (doesn't require a cable to run). > Hi Most have some capacitors added to slow the signals down. One can just remove the capacitors. Then you need to worry a little about transmission line effects. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 9 12:35:28 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:35:28 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <200503091819.KAA22333@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503091819.KAA22333@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050309123212.0511f528@mail> At 12:19 PM 3/9/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >>On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:40 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> > Or, you could try a simple parallel cable and Disk2FDI: >>> > http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi And does this work with any 8-inch drives? And it's strictly read-only? Good for archiving. - John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 12:34:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:34:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <200503091834.KAA22342@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Leonard" ---snip--- >I should note that, since FDI images are 100% exact bitwise dumps, they aren't >exactly easy to read (they're not nice clean formatted-track-and-sector images) >so getting them translated back to an actual floppy diskette is not currently >possible (since nobody has written the software to do so yet). ---snip--- It is not a matter of software. It is a matter of hardware. Unless someone can comes up with a trick, the controller won't do it. Dwight From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 12:53:19 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600 Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: <200503091724.JAA22269@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503091724.JAA22269@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: It just happens that I am on a riverboat going up the Mississippi right now. It is fully steam powered. This morning a historian on the boat stated that this is the most authentic steam boat on the Mississippi everything is steam powered. He stated that even the sound system was steam powered. (steam powered turbines generate the electricity) At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:24:33 -0800 (PST), Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Jim Battle" > > > >Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >... > >> If the desert island has vines you could make a rope computer, as > >> described in a > >> Scientific American, I don't remember the issue. > > > >It was an april fool's issue, I believe. If memory serves, the island > >was called APRLFUL or something like that. The article showed how, with > >clever arrangements pullies, toggles, springs and such, inverters and > >simple logic gates could be produced. Entertaining enough. > > > >The problem with that "computer" is that the logic gates have no gain. > > > >Each gate has no power supply other than the mechanical power of the > >input signals (ropes getting pulled). For instance, say you pull an > >input rope of a NAND gate one foot (OK, let's keep it metric) ten inches > >:-) and the output rope moves nine inches, so the gain is 0.9. Put N of > >these gates in series and the output signal is (0.9**N) of the input > >signal. After half a dozen gates, very little is left at the output. > >The rope gates had a gain much less than 0.9 -- probably 0.5. > > > >It is the same reason why computers aren't built of of just diodes and > >resistors. You can have a gate or two in series, but then the signal > >needs to be reconditioned before being applied to the next stage. > > > > > > Hi > Relays work great. They have a lot of gain. Maybe much more > than is needed for a computer. > I've always wanted to build a calculator using marbles that > are feed from a hopper and the addition of a manual lever > to work as a clock ( and additional power ). > Dwight > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Mar 9 13:00:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:00:01 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. References: <200503091834.KAA22342@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000b01c524da$32e18c80$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:34 PM > >From: "Jim Leonard" > ---snip--- > >I should note that, since FDI images are 100% exact bitwise dumps, they aren't > >exactly easy to read (they're not nice clean formatted-track-and-sector images) > >so getting them translated back to an actual floppy diskette is not currently > >possible (since nobody has written the software to do so yet). > ---snip--- > > It is not a matter of software. It is a matter of hardware. Unless > someone can comes up with a trick, the controller won't do it. > > Dwight You might look at: http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ It uses a PIC. It only has 256K of RAM right now but he is upgrading it to 1mb. I'm looking into using an eZ80 and a Flash card. By using track buffering it is possible to emulate almost anything with very little RAM. Randy From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:12:30 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:12:30 -0600 Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: References: <200503091724.JAA22269@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. > Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by > that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer > using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! Wasn't Babbage's original design to be steam powered? -dhbarr. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 13:15:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <200503091915.LAA22353@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:34 PM >> >From: "Jim Leonard" >> ---snip--- >> >I should note that, since FDI images are 100% exact bitwise dumps, they >aren't >> >exactly easy to read (they're not nice clean formatted-track-and-sector >images) >> >so getting them translated back to an actual floppy diskette is not >currently >> >possible (since nobody has written the software to do so yet). >> ---snip--- >> >> It is not a matter of software. It is a matter of hardware. Unless >> someone can comes up with a trick, the controller won't do it. >> >> Dwight > >You might look at: > >http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/ > >It uses a PIC. It only has 256K of RAM right now but he is upgrading it to >1mb. > >I'm looking into using an eZ80 and a Flash card. By using track buffering >it is possible to emulate almost anything with very little RAM. > > >Randy > Hi Randy I'm familiar with Eric's work. I was stating that without specific hardware, writing these unusual formats is not possible with a PC. Eric's stuff is a good way to handle things. Does anyone know the specifics of what is different between the SVD format and the FDI's?. The SVD is an ASCII octal format. Is the FDI a binary or something? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 13:26:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:26:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bamboo computer Message-ID: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David H. Barr" > >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI > wrote: > >> At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. >> Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by >> that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer >> using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! > >Wasn't Babbage's original design to be steam powered? > >-dhbarr. > Hi I think he means that the individual logic elements are steam driven. Not just a mechanical machine connedted to a steam engine. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 9 13:26:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, David H. Barr wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI > wrote: > > > At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. > > Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by > > that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer > > using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! > > Wasn't Babbage's original design to be steam powered? Yes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 9 13:30:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:30:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: RLL vs. MFM In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308215119.0213ac10@mail.zipcon.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050308215119.0213ac10@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <48765.64.139.41.130.1110396652.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Geoff wrote: > i used to get burnt up 225's for free from a local shop and replace the > amplifier chip on them (think it was an amp, i don't remember for certain > anymore) the chip just cuoldn't handle the higher frequency and datarate > that the drive was subjected to if run RLL, heck they chips fried > themselves eventually if you ran them MFM, They did that whether you used RLL or MFM. The data format/rate was not the issue. Eric From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:56:29 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:56:29 -0600 Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: Yes, with valves and pistons you chould be able to build a digital computer powered by live steam. With a rotory steam powered wheel I guess you could have a metal tape drive and metal punches for recording. On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:26:51 -0800 (PST), Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "David H. Barr" > > > >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI > > wrote: > > > >> At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. > >> Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by > >> that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer > >> using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! > > > >Wasn't Babbage's original design to be steam powered? > > > >-dhbarr. > > > > Hi > I think he means that the individual logic elements are > steam driven. Not just a mechanical machine connedted > to a steam engine. > Dwight > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From tyger69 at chartermi.net Wed Mar 9 14:16:53 2005 From: tyger69 at chartermi.net (Terry Yager) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:16:53 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing References: <200503090400.j2940ULu096796@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002f01c524e5$14297860$0200a8c0@cablemodem> I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) /wai-sun Lancaster's TTL Cookbook is a great place to start. The most indispensible book in my collection is _Bowker's 1985 Complete Sourcebook of Personal Computing_. This 1050-page (2.25" thick) buyer's guide is just loaded with information about the state of personal computing for that year. (I used to have the 1984 edition too, but I gave it away long ago). If you can get your hands on any of thier sourcebooks you will be very happy with it. A couple of other suggestions also come to mind. If you're at all interested in CP/M, then you should have The Waite Group's _CP/M Bible_ and it's companion book _The Soul of CP/M_. --T Jam the computer...trash every lethal machine in the land! --Timothy Leary From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 9 13:51:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:51:34 -0500 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <200503091829.KAA22338@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050309145134.00946d90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dwight, I'll be happy to post them on my website if you'll send them to me. Joe At 10:29 AM 3/9/05 -0800, you wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >---snip--- >> >> Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor >>Design'. Hmmm. I was getting ready to put some books on E-bay and I have >---snip--- > >Hi > I was digging into some piles of things and >came on some data sheets for a few of the 2900 chips. >I think I have for the 2901 and 2911, as well as >one or two others. If these are not already posted >someplace, I can bring them to Al to put on his >site. >Dwight > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 9 14:55:35 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:55:35 +0000 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <422F62C7.7010509@gjcp.net> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Once done, the SET command values are held in the > DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to > do the SET commands each time. Probably not > recommended in any case. Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then? Makes sense. I'll try it when I get home. > Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the > DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster > response after the first usage. In addition, I > strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ > unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has > a serious impact on the program which you run. Well, the idea is to load TSX-Plus over it, which requires the SJ monitor. > In addition, it would be helpful to know the full > version number of the RT-11 version which you are > using. Based on the above SET commands, it must > be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released > in 1985. There are certain features which later > versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be > aware of. the RT-11 command: > SHOW CONFIG > will provide the information, as will the banner > when RT-11 first boots. On bootup, and in SHOW CONFIG, the version is given as 5.00. > Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET > values which have been suggested since they > impact very negatively with regard to booting > RT-11. You will not lose anything with a Ok, why is that? > different combination of SET parameters, but > you will gain with respect to what drives > can be booted, in particular from a cold start. In this instance I want to boot from a "clean" install of RT-11 from DL0, but eventually I will be booting from DU0. > The exact nature of which disk drives are being > used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an > RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11 OK, this is where it gets tricky. I'm not totally sure how to identify the ST506 drives fitted to the machine. One is a full-height 5.25" drive, with (seemingly) about 65,000 blocks on each partition. The other is half-height, with considerably less on each partition - one is around 40,000 blocks, one is around 16,000 blocks (if I remember correctly - I'm not actually near the machine right now to check). The smaller drive is made by Fujitsu, may be something like M224XAS ? The label is rather hard to read. The other drives are an RL02 (I have two but lack the cable that links the two drives) and an RX02. Gordon. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 9 15:24:13 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:24:13 -0600 Subject: More Books Came today Message-ID: <013301c524ee$b85e6ea0$26406b43@66067007> FedEx dropped off another 100+ books today and there many in the cases that I want to read but I pulled these three for now. "Heathkit Manual for the MICODER II" model HD-1984, "Charles Babbage Father of the Computer" by Dan Halacy, and "Introduction to Computer Systems Using the PDP-11 and Pascal" by Glenn H. MacEwen. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 9 15:54:40 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:54:40 -0500 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:36:02 EST." <3.0.6.32.20050309093602.009268f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200503092154.j29LseTH030095@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joe R." wrote: ... > Another suggestion is Mick & Brick's book 'Bit-Slice MicroProcessor >Design'. this is one of my all time favorites. the other suggestions where good but this one taught me how to pipeline. -brad From eric at rothfus.com Wed Mar 9 16:36:10 2005 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:36:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <200503091915.LAA22353@clulw009.amd.com> (dwight.elvey@amd.com) References: <200503091915.LAA22353@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1110394208@rothfus.com> ...snip... >> >>I'm looking into using an eZ80 and a Flash card. By using track buffering >>it is possible to emulate almost anything with very little RAM. >> >> >>Randy >> > > Hi Randy > I'm familiar with Eric's work. I was stating that without >specific hardware, writing these unusual formats is not possible >with a PC. Eric's stuff is a good way to handle things. > Does anyone know the specifics of what is different >between the SVD format and the FDI's?. The SVD is an >ASCII octal format. Is the FDI a binary or something? >dwight Just a few notes on this thread... - regarding the SVD "format" it isn't ASCII octal really. Dwight was refering to the input format to the SVD software that understands H8/H89. The SVD "format" is a modified sector-based format that is half-way in between binary data and floppy track bit image (like FDI). - I've seen two "bit-image" styles of images. In the first, the image contains a byte-by-byte image of the data on the floppy, which normally includes the sector sync bytes, sector header information, data, and checksums. In the second, you have a raw bit-stream, which is necessarily longer than the byte-style because it includes clock bits for FM or special encoding for MFM (for eg.). The byte-by-byte images hide the details of the encoding (FM, MFM, or even GCR), and the bit-by-bit images hide details such as write-pre-compensation. - Randy is talking about implementing a system by which the raw bit stream would be represented, therefore, allowing FM, MFM, GCR, RLL, etc. to be done easily...though write pre-comp is a bit tougher to deal with when allowing the vintage box to write back to the solid-state disk. - the big difference between what Randy is describing and what the SVD does is mainly memory. The SVD was designed around a low amount of memory, so the data fed to it must be custom-prepared based upon the type of floppy it is emulating. With more memory, as in Randy's design, you can have the floppy emulator be blissfully ignorant of the data format and just spew bits. All of the intelligence in this design is in the PC preparing the bit stream. Note that the SVD has to do a lot of that anyway. - Randy mentioned using a track buffering scheme to try to lower the amount of memory used in the bit-spewer approach. Should work well, though there will probably be a latency when seeking multiple tracks. (he and I have talked about this a bit already) Eric From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 16:36:59 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:36:59 -0500 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050309173659.680763c6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:14:28 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > >>cheerfully build their own computer out of sand and bamboo on a > > >desert >island given a proper vacation, or who've memorized the > > >arcana of all >mechanical and electrical technology in the last 100 > > >years, or whom> > > >> > > > > > > > > Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... > > Well, my first thought is that sand is SiO_2, so you could try to > reduce it to silicon and make transistors. > We'd not be able to make transistors with just sand. There are essential doping agents. I'm not sure arsenic can be easily extracted from bamboo... From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 16:42:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:42:43 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050309174243.6afcd019.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:22:35 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > >On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 > >"J.C. Wren" wrote: > > > > > >Yes, but there's already a nice CMOS chip out there, in a friendly > >40-pin DIP package. It's even more than a decade on-topic here. > >(the date code on the ones I have is 8001). > > > >(googling 'IM6100' probably doesn't bring up as many snazzy websites, > >though) > > > > > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > > > http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html > > > Cool. I have a friend like that. I believe he's using a TRS-80 Model 100 as a controller in his darkroom. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 16:47:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:47:47 -0500 Subject: PDP/8 on a chip implementation (Scott's post) In-Reply-To: <422E619B.2080107@jcwren.com> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> <422E619B.2080107@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20050309174747.3e8527a0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:19 -0500 "J.C. Wren" wrote: > I did not write what was quoted below as being from me. I think a > couple paragraphs got dropped or something. I don't have the original > > article that shows who it should be correctly attributed to. > > --jc > Somehow it looks like attribution, and your comment in the thread, got snipped out of the response from woodelf. Your 'part' in the thread was: ---- Google for "PDP8 VHDL". There's lots of hits. --- I was able to reach back to the original article only because I'v found a great email client (sylpheed) that threads the discussions here. I'd be lost without it. > woodelf wrote: > > > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 21:34:51 -0500 > >> "J.C. Wren" wrote: > >> > >> > >> Yes, but there's already a nice CMOS chip out there, in a friendly > >> 40-pin DIP package. It's even more than a decade on-topic here. > >(the> date code on the ones I have is 8001). > >> > >> (googling 'IM6100' probably doesn't bring up as many snazzy > >websites,> though) > >> > >> > > Well this looks snazzy ... On topic too... 'Dark room timer' > > > >> http://artm-friends.at/rm/foto/duka.html > > From willisjo at zianet.com Wed Mar 9 17:22:03 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:22:03 -0700 Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem Message-ID: The saga continues... After doing a conversational boot: >>>b/1 2...1...0... SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P2 "TRUE" SYSBOOT> CONTINUE the system begins its startup procedure, yet it freezes at this: $if startup$autoconfigure_all .and. .not. f$getsyi("NOAUTOCONFIG") then - sysgen autoconfigure all Any pointers?? Thanks much, John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 9 17:18:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 16:18:11 -0700 Subject: (Scott's post) trimmimg In-Reply-To: <20050309174747.3e8527a0.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <25.5ab00e57.2f5e5a6b@aol.com> <422D0F4B.9050705@jcwren.com> <20050308185141.2eed5ff6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <422E5DEB.6050405@jetnet.ab.ca> <422E619B.2080107@jcwren.com> <20050309174747.3e8527a0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <422F8433.8090205@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >Somehow it looks like attribution, and your comment in the thread, got >snipped out of the response from woodelf. Your 'part' in the thread >was: > To JC: Well I trim posts amd respond to the whole message. While you may not have said that you did send it and I feel free to reply to all parts of the message. >well > > >I was able to reach back to the original article only because I'v found >a great email client (sylpheed) that threads the discussions here. I'd >be lost without it. > > > I just got stupid mozilla for mail, it wants to fomat in HTML , convert smilies to graphics, messup '>' for replies *BUT* not let you follow threads. Ben alias woodelf From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 9 17:40:34 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:40:34 -0000 Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503092340.j29NeYG3008463@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Willis > Sent: 09 March 2005 23:22 > To: Classic Computers > Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem > > the system begins its startup procedure, yet it freezes at this: > > $if startup$autoconfigure_all .and. .not. > f$getsyi("NOAUTOCONFIG") then - sysgen autoconfigure all Did you also do SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN"? VMS shouldn't try to autoconfigure all devices on a minimum boot.... cheers a/w From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 9 17:43:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:43:43 -0500 Subject: FA: Books was Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <002f01c524e5$14297860$0200a8c0@cablemodem> References: <200503090400.j2940ULu096796@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050309184343.00a40760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've been meaning to weed out some of my excess books so I went ahead and put them on E-bay today. Mick & Brick's book is there and so is a PDP11-03 handbook, a couple of TRS Model 1 books, also some GOOD DSP and A/D books from Analog Devices and a number of others. See . I will be adding more as time permits. Joe At 03:16 PM 3/9/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to >probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" >collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 17:59:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:59:11 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050309185911.232d175b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:40:54 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 11:15 AM +0800 3/9/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > >I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > >probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a > >"wannabe" collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > > >Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > >be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. > > If you're primarily interested in DEC stuff, a good collection of DEC > Handbooks is a must, as is a Doc Set for each of the OS's that you're > interested in. If you're into PDP-8's, the 3 Volume -8/e/f/m > Maintenance Manual set is excellent as well. Remember any DEC > hardware from before the 90's is going to be *well* documented, if > you can find copies of the books! > > >p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > > >/wai-sun > > I've got the TV Typewriter book, and I think some other stuff by him, > and as a DEC collector it's only of mild interest. > > Zane > Depending on your level of understanding of hardware, if you're a DEC hardware enthusiast, Lancaster's 'TTL Cookbook' could be considered a MUST intro to small/medium scale TTL Logic. Or are most DEC enthusiasts interested in the pre-TTL era hardware? > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 18:10:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:10:24 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050309191024.15b05636.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:07:24 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:51:40 -0500, Patrick Finnegan > wrote: > > > > Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design, > > > > by C. Gordon Bell et al., Digital Press > > > > That's ok, you'll be glad to know I just purchased a copy on amazon > > for about $7.50 :) > > I think Gordon Bell has made that one available on-line. > > > There are some books I gladly paid $$big_bux for, including the W. > > Richard Stevens TCP/IP Illustrated Vol 1, Advanced Programming in > > the Unix Environment, and his Unix Network Programming (vol 1 & 2) > > books. Must haves, IMHO, for anyone doing programming on Unix/Linux > > machines, and still in print. :) > > Agreed... those are important books for anyone who does serious UNIX > programming. I have copies, too... bought new for $$$. > It's also nice to have a vintage-era UNIX manual set. I acquired a complete comb-bound copy of the BSD manuals for 4.3 BSD (second printing, June 1987) awhile back. Most of the aprocryphal knowlege in this set is available elsewhere, but there's something just 'right' about reading 'An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi' (USD:15) by Bill Joy, rather than just the O'Reilly book. And, as Brian W. Kernighan says in USD:12 (A Tutorial Introduction to the UNIX Text Editor): "Almost all text input on the UNIX operating system is done with the text-editor ed." further in: "Do the excercises! They cover material not completely discussed in the actual text." further yet: "The easiest way to get ed is to type: ed (followed by a return) You are now ready to go - ed is waiting for you to tell it what to do." From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 18:14:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:14:31 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050309191431.17b6aa70.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:31:38 -0500 9000 VAX wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia > wrote: > > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a > > "wannabe" collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > > > Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > > be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. > > I have: > VAX Architecture Reference Manual (1987) > The visible Computer: 8088 (1986) > The 8088 Project Book (1989) > iAPX88 Book (1983) > 'The 8088 Project Book' is what kicked off my 8088-based single board computer project. It leaves a LOT of the software-related part of things as 'an excercize for the reader,' though. Any book that progresses a step-at-a-time to build an 8088 based computer on those white solderless breadboards HAS to be cool. -Scott From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 9 18:15:44 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:15:44 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050309123212.0511f528@mail> References: <200503091819.KAA22333@clulw009.amd.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050309123212.0511f528@mail> Message-ID: <422F91B0.2050702@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > And does this work with any 8-inch drives? The original author has never tried it. > And it's strictly read-only? Good for archiving. Indeed. I am not the original author; his contact information should be at www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 9 18:16:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 18:16:58 -0600 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <200503091834.KAA22342@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503091834.KAA22342@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <422F91FA.7010305@oldskool.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>I should note that, since FDI images are 100% exact bitwise dumps, they aren't >>exactly easy to read (they're not nice clean formatted-track-and-sector images) >>so getting them translated back to an actual floppy diskette is not currently >>possible (since nobody has written the software to do so yet). > > It is not a matter of software. It is a matter of hardware. Unless > someone can comes up with a trick, the controller won't do it. I was referring to the parallel-port-cable solution, not the controller (which, I agree, clearly can't do it). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From willisjo at zianet.com Wed Mar 9 18:26:23 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:26:23 -0700 Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem In-Reply-To: <200503092340.j29NeYG3008463@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: It works now. I did SET NOAUTOCONFIG 1 in SYSGEN and did a WRITE CURRENT, followed by a SHUTDOWN and reboot. Thanks! on 3/9/05 4:40 PM, Adrian Graham at witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Willis >> Sent: 09 March 2005 23:22 >> To: Classic Computers >> Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem >> >> the system begins its startup procedure, yet it freezes at this: >> >> $if startup$autoconfigure_all .and. .not. >> f$getsyi("NOAUTOCONFIG") then - sysgen autoconfigure all > > Did you also do SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN"? VMS shouldn't try to autoconfigure all > devices on a minimum boot.... > > cheers > > a/w > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 18:30:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:30:51 -0500 Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050309193051.6967163e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:15:27 +0800 Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm building my personal library for vintage computing. I need to > probe the collective wisdom of the list in what books must a "wannabe" > collector (like me) should have on his/her bookshelf. > > Although I collect primarily DEC stuff, I don't want my knowledge to > be just restricted to what DEC had to offer. > > p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > /wai-sun To provide a 'modern' fork to this discussion: The Mindshare series of books, published by Addison-Wesley, are quite valuable. It deals with that dreaded 'PeeCee' hardware, but is almost the ONLY place to get rigorous coverage of the ISA Bus, the PCI Bus, and so on. So much 'PC' related material is badly translated little stapled manuals from Taiwanese motherboard vendors or 'high level' books containing screenshots of 'the latest from Redmond' that it was refreshing when I discovered the Mindshare series. Also good in this vein is: "The 80x86 IBM PC and Compatible Computers (Volumes I & II) Assembly Language, Design, and Interfacing." by Mazidi and Mazidi, Prentice Hall, 1998. It's a book that takes the reader down to the bare hardware without flinching, and, again, without ANY of the fluffy B.S. that almost everything associated with the PeeCee gets mired in. I paid $100 for my new copy at the bookstore without (almost) flinching. To go truly ancient: The 'Radiotron Designer's Handbook' edited by F. Langford Smith, published by RCA in the 1940s. It's the 'Horowitz and Hill' of the vacuum-tube era. My copies are both US reprintings (a 1941 and a 1945 edition), the original edition is Australian. But that's radio and electronics stuff. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 9 18:24:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: <20050309173659.680763c6.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Mar 9, 5 05:36:59 pm Message-ID: > > Well, my first thought is that sand is SiO_2, so you could try to > > reduce it to silicon and make transistors. > > > > We'd not be able to make transistors with just sand. There are > essential doping agents. I'm not sure arsenic can be easily extracted > from bamboo... True, but sand is not _pure_ SiO_2, and there are probably other rocks/minerals around. You might well be able to extract suitable dopants from thsoe. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 9 18:41:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <20050309185911.232d175b.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Mar 09, 2005 06:59:11 PM Message-ID: <200503100041.j2A0fVtc011869@onyx.spiritone.com> > > >p.s. Don Lancaster's books are the first on my list. :-) > > > > > >/wai-sun > > > > I've got the TV Typewriter book, and I think some other stuff by him, > > and as a DEC collector it's only of mild interest. > > > > Zane > > Depending on your level of understanding of hardware, if you're a DEC > hardware enthusiast, Lancaster's 'TTL Cookbook' could be considered a > MUST intro to small/medium scale TTL Logic. > > Or are most DEC enthusiasts interested in the pre-TTL era hardware? OK, I just had to do a quick Amazon search on Don Lancaster, and he's obviously not the author I was thinking of. Though I still wasn't very interested in the TV Typewriter book. Now I'm wondering who I was thinking of. Even worse, I see he's written a couple interesting sounding Apple // books. More and more I find myself wanting to find a spot to set my //e back up... Zane From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 18:41:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:41:50 -0500 Subject: More Books Came today In-Reply-To: <013301c524ee$b85e6ea0$26406b43@66067007> References: <013301c524ee$b85e6ea0$26406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20050309194150.734c2ed8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:24:13 -0600 "Keys" wrote: > FedEx dropped off another 100+ books today and there many in the cases > that I want to read but I pulled these three for now. "Heathkit > Manual for the MICODER II" model HD-1984, "Charles Babbage Father of > the Computer" by Dan Halacy, and "Introduction to Computer Systems > Using the PDP-11 and Pascal" by Glenn H. MacEwen. > How do *I* get FedEx to drop off books like those? I did get two whole grocery bags full of computer books at Christmas when I visited the BookHouse in Dinkytown (Minneapolis). Hadn't been there in ages (live hundreds of miles away now). I got a half dozen textbook-type books that are VAX related, and a few of the late-70's era 'desiging with Microprocessors' type books. Some Pascal and early Mac books, too. And they were books out on 'the cart' outside the store, so priced $1 each (or $5 a bag for the two grocery bags full that I grabbed). From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Mar 9 18:47:26 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:47:26 -0000 Subject: VMS 5.1 startup problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503100047.j2A0lgmb009569@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Willis > Sent: 10 March 2005 00:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VMS 5.1 startup problem > > It works now. I did SET NOAUTOCONFIG 1 in SYSGEN and did a > WRITE CURRENT, followed by a SHUTDOWN and reboot. Excellent - nice one :) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Mar 9 19:43:12 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:43:12 -0500 Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging Message-ID: <422FA630.10803@nktelco.net> I added support to SPCWR3.PA for the VC8/I. http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA This requires an EAE and now I find out that my untested EAE does not work. The first sign of problems was that the processor paused while running and the only way to stop it was to turn off power. The HALT switch did nothing. I got a copy of MAINDEC-8E-D0LB-D which is EAE test 1 and it locked up pretty much the same way. I removed the EAE and the diagnostic halted at a reasonable place insteading of locking up. The EAE stops the main processor sequencer and then does it's thing and when it is finished, restarts the processor sequencer. I seems to me that this handoff is not occuring properly. The front panel shows that the processor is stuck in Execute (E) State with a 7 in the IR and the PC within one of an EAE instruction. This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. Since the MAINDEC tests won't run, I will try to figure out which if any of the EAE instructions function and which to not. Since, so far, everything seems to hang, it might be something fundamental, and that might be easier to find. Suggestions, comments please. -chuck From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 9 19:45:23 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 Saga Continues... Message-ID: <32ddc6d32dff05.32dff0532ddc6d@optonline.net> First I got "just a typing unit" for an ASR-33 (thought it was going to have some more of the unit included)...not too useful, but it really sparked the bug... Then I bought a unit and had it shipped. Poorly packed, it was virtually destroyed (ok the case was destroyed) in transit. Pictures are at www.dynamicconcepts.us/Teletype. After some re-construction, it is powered up, but I have been completely unable to get the h-plate properly aligned... So, I wend up to Vermont [I am in NY] to pick up another teletype. This one I carefully transported back (after some disassembly), but once it was back together....you guessed it....I cant align the DA$&*#*@MN H-Plate! I have been working on those two units off and on since before the holidays, and have become quite fustrated. Then a teletype appeared on e-Bay, and it was local (actually between my home and work!!!)...special bonus, nobody seemed to be biddingh it up [it was listed at the same time as the infamous $1400+ unit]. I won it, and picked it up. This time I secured the typing unit in place, AND marked the exact position of everything with a marker! I get it home and power it up. The main cam shaft is not properly secured (the hold down just past the gear is broken)...No biggie..I have the original typing unit which can be gobbled for parts. After transfering over the assembly containing the cam holedown, I power it up again.. The keyboard works (NO H-Plate problems [yippie]), the paper tape punch worked [the reader needs to be replaced, but I have a NIB unit for that], the type cyclinder spinds and lifts, the hammer strikes...and a really faint improperly alligned imnage is all that gets printed [Yes I have a brand new ribbon on it]. So at this point, I am wondering how to address this problem...The cylinder is well cleaned (boy was there buildup), the characters look sharp on it, the rubber bumper on the hammer is in apparant good condition [and not "soft"].... Any clues appreciated... [wishing there was a traveling teletype repairman who wanted to come to Long Island NY....] David From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 9 20:01:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:01:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1702's Message-ID: <200503100201.SAA22478@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I constantly see on ebay sales that say they are auctioning a 1702. Closer looks show them to be 1702A's. The 1702/1701/1602/1601 were the first EPROM, not the 1702A. Still, they state that these were the first EPROM. You can't even program them with the same algorithm. Just an observation. Dwight From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Mar 9 20:07:58 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 18:07:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: <20050309191024.15b05636.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <65280.64.139.41.130.1110341041.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503090051.40725.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050309191024.15b05636.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Free for shippping costs: "Programming in assembly language: MACRO11" Edward F. Sowell (for PDP11) Peter Wallace From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Mar 9 20:09:26 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:09:26 -0500 Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging Message-ID: <422FAC56.6060509@nktelco.net> I wanted to try out my VC8/I Point-Plot Display with PDP8 spacewar. I added support to SPCWR3.PA for the VC8/I. http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA This requires an EAE and now I find out that my untested EAE does not work. The first sign of problems was that the processor paused while running and the only way to stop it was to turn off power. The HALT switch did nothing. I got a copy of MAINDEC-8E-D0LB-D which is EAE test 1 and it locked up pretty much the same way. I removed the EAE and the diagnostic halted at a reasonable place insteading of locking up. The EAE stops the main processor sequencer and then does it's thing and when it is finished, restarts the processor sequencer. I seems to me that this handoff is not occuring properly. The front panel shows that the processor is stuck in Execute (E) State with a 7 in the IR and the PC within one of an EAE instruction. This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. Since the MAINDEC tests won't run, I will try to figure out which if any of the EAE instructions function and which to not. Since, so far, everything seems to hang, it might be something fundamental, and that might be easier to find. Suggestions, comments please. -chuck If this is an extra post, my apologies. The rules have changed, and I respect that. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 9 20:06:18 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 19:06:18 -0700 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <422FAB9A.6030001@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >True, but sand is not _pure_ SiO_2, and there are probably other >rocks/minerals around. You might well be able to extract suitable dopants >from thsoe. > > > Well collect it from the ocean & if you are that smart talk to the whales too. :) >-tony > > Ben alias woodelf. PS. I am just watching some Japanese anime : "Nadia-The Secret of the blue water" and it was inspired by '20,000 leagues under the sea. The japanese are very creative with alternate time-lines and other histories so if you like older techology or strange adapation of techology like Nemo's Sub they are a great thing to watch as well as having a good story. From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Mar 9 20:27:26 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:27:26 -0500 Subject: 1702's In-Reply-To: <200503100201.SAA22478@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503100201.SAA22478@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <422FB08E.20804@jcwren.com> Generally speaking, any time you see 'RARE!' or 'L@@K!' in an auction, it's highly overrated common junk. In fact, I generally use that as a criteria for the credibility of a seller. If they have several auctions of 'RARE' items, I avoid them like the plague. If it says 'Unusual', or some other word, I'll give them a look. But I just love how ceramic 40 pin DIP 8051's are RARE!. If they are, I'm sitting on a bloody fortune. --jc Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > I constantly see on ebay sales that say they are >auctioning a 1702. Closer looks show them to be >1702A's. The 1702/1701/1602/1601 were the first >EPROM, not the 1702A. Still, they state that these >were the first EPROM. You can't even program them >with the same algorithm. > Just an observation. >Dwight > > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 9 20:51:37 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:51:37 -0500 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. Message-ID: <0ID4001OG7XPB5@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on (Maxtor) ATA Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS failure and it "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I believe the board (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, and I want to explore options before sending the drive out for $6K+ in repair costs. David "Some days you have all the (bad) luck" From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 9 21:03:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:03:48 -0500 Subject: DSD QBUS card info Message-ID: <200503092203.48740.pat@computer-refuge.org> Can anyone tell me what kind of DSD device a DSD 804432-02 card connects to? I've got a DSD 880 that it'd be really *swell* if I could get a QBUS interface card for (so I can read in some RX01s for the 11/780 emulator that Bob Supnik is working on, and hopefully help to get my 11/780 running). Or, if anyone has an appropriate spare card for not too many $$$, I'd be happier to do that than to buy a card off of eBay. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 22:11:14 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:11:14 -0500 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <0ID4001OG7XPB5@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0ID4001OG7XPB5@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:51:37 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on (Maxtor) ATA > Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS failure and it > "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I believe the board > (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, and I want to explore > options before sending the drive out for $6K+ in repair costs. You need to find a HD of the same type, and replace the circuit board. It is easy and if it does not work, I suspect what those $6K+ companies can do. vax, 9000 > > David > > "Some days you have all the (bad) luck" > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 9 22:26:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <0ID4001OG7XPB5@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> from "David V. Corbin" at "Mar 9, 5 09:51:37 pm" Message-ID: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on (Maxtor) ATA > Drives, please drop me a note off-list. This isn't going to make you feel any better (I don't think), but Maxtors for me have had an abysmal track record. However, there are probably others here who think they're tremendous and that my present drive brand of choice (Western Digital) bites the unpleasantly large wax tadpole. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard ----------------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 9 22:32:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:32:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> References: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on > (Maxtor) ATA Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS > failure and it "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I > believe the board (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, > and I want to explore options before sending the drive out for $6K+ > in repair costs. Well, one option might be to try to find an identical drive and swap boards between then. In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, swapping logic boards is just a matter of taking a few screws out and making sure the boards get lined up correctly. But you need an identical drive to swap with. If the drive is still available, getting another identical one is likely to run way less than $6K and may well be worth doing against the chance it'll work. You will almost certainly need a torx of the right size, which probably means a decent set of torxes; every drive I've looked at with an eye to mechanical disassembly has been held together with torxes. For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; if I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 23:12:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:12:23 -0500 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:32:29 -0500 (EST), der Mouse wrote: > For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which > reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; if > I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. Board swapping is unlikely to help. Unlike classic drives, modern drives put their internal 'firmware' (more like DECmate 'slushware') on factory tracks. Maxtors are prone to amnesia when they can't read those factory tracks, or the data on them has been corrupted. The drive geometry, etc., is _not_ stored in the board. I have an 80 GB drive sitting on a bench in Palmerston North, NZ, because of this problem... -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 9 23:28:51 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:28:51 -0500 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: References: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200503100028.51627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ethan Dicks declared on Thursday 10 March 2005 12:12 am: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:32:29 -0500 (EST), der Mouse > > wrote: > > For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which > > reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; > > if I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. > > Board swapping is unlikely to help. Unlike classic drives, modern > drives put their internal 'firmware' (more like DECmate 'slushware') > on factory tracks. Maxtors are prone to amnesia when they can't read > those factory tracks, or the data on them has been corrupted. The > drive geometry, etc., is _not_ stored in the board. > > I have an 80 GB drive sitting on a bench in Palmerston North, NZ, > because of this problem... If it's just because he nuked the board with an overvoltage from the P/S, there's actually a good chance that it'll fix things. I've done it before. I'm sure it won't fix all problems, but electronics missing the 'magic smoke' it may help with. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Mar 10 01:28:26 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:28:26 -0800 Subject: Mick & Brick's Bit-Slice MicroProcessor Design Re: Must have books for Vintage Computing In-Reply-To: (Zane H. Healy's message of "Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:14:02 -0800") References: <164225fc288555e086b23e1b6ecc0de0@comcast.net> <3.0.6.32.20050309093602.009268f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200503100728.j2A7SQvJ002837@lots.reanimators.org> Zane H. Healy wrote (after Joe Rigdon): >>visit Powells. It's WELL worth the trip. FWIW several of the countys in >>this area operate stores where they sell used, obselete and/or donated >>library books. I've found lots of good books there for almost nothing. > > I've not had very good luck with Library sales, though I did find an > interesting Hardback on Serial cables (basically a book on the various > pinouts). Where I've had *very* good luck is with a annual booksale > that a local Women's Charity has. Hardcover book on serial cables. Hmm..._RS-232 Made Easy_? I'm thinking it was printed in two editions at least one of which was published in both hardcover and softcover. On the library sales. Your (Zane's) problem is probably that you have Powell's right there, and either whoever is operating the sale is picking out technical books to Powell's because they think they can't get as much from the "retail" customers like you, or there are book scouts out looking for stuff to resell (likely to Powell's). -Frank McConnell From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Mar 10 02:43:36 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33 Saga Continues... In-Reply-To: <32ddc6d32dff05.32dff0532ddc6d@optonline.net> Message-ID: Quoth dvcorbin at optonline.net, in part: > [...] the type cyclinder spinds and lifts, the hammer strikes...and a > really faint improperly alligned imnage is all that gets printed [Yes I > have a brand new ribbon on it]. > > So at this point, I am wondering how to address this problem...The > cylinder is well cleaned (boy was there buildup), the characters look > sharp on it, the rubber bumper on the hammer is in apparant good > condition [and not "soft"].... But the character it tries to print is the correct one? If so, the situation doesn't sound too bad. :) I spent part of today tinkering with the ASR I just got and was working on exactly the same issue, oddly enough; so maybe I can point you to the information I was using. Have you got a copy of the January '63 ASR-33 technical manual from Bitsavers or one of its mirrors (273B_Mod32_33_TechMan_Jan63.pdf, in the Teletype section)? If so, on Adjustments p. 4-94 there's a quick guide to some of the print-quality adjustments. (The faintness of the image might be the horizontal alignment of the platen, which is covered on p. 4-64.) ...I have to say, I'd forgotten the beauty of ASR-33s! The level of mechanical acumen, intricacy and craft of the design never ceases to impress me. _Damn,_ these people were clever! I'd forgotten just how enjoyable it is to see that ingenuity with my own eyes... and it's good, because that enjoyment somewhat offsets the creeping terror I sometimes get that it might never go back together again and I've stupidly opened Pandora's Box Of Spare Parts. :) :) :) -O.- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 10 03:27:32 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:27:32 GMT Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" "Re: Bamboo computer" (Mar 9, 12:53) References: <200503091724.JAA22269@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10503100927.ZM28066@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 9 2005, 12:53, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. > Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by > that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer > using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! Different method, but Babbage's Analytical Engine was to have been steam-powered, using a steam engine to drive the mechanism. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 10 03:28:54 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:28:54 GMT Subject: Bamboo computer In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Bamboo computer" (Mar 9, 11:26) References: Message-ID: <10503100928.ZM28069@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 9 2005, 11:26, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, David H. Barr wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:53:19 -0600, Jim Isbell, W5JAI > > wrote: > > > > > At that point I began wondeering about a steam powered computer. > > > Actualy I guess this laptop is actually a steam powered computer by > > > that historians definition. BUT..what about a steam powered computer > > > using steam valves and pistons. That could give you great gain!!! > > > > Wasn't Babbage's original design to be steam powered? > > Yes. The Difference Engine isn't, it's hand-cranked. The Analytical Engine would have been steam-driven. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Mar 10 04:46:05 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:46:05 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 Saga Continues... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0ID4004DLTWC1J@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >> O. Sharp wrote: >>The faintness of the image might be the >>horizontal alignment of the platen, which is >>covered on p. 4-64.) I will have to pull out my copy.... >>...I have to say, I'd forgotten the beauty of ASR-33s! The level of >>mechanical acumen, intricacy and craft of the design never ceases to >>impress me. And the ASR-33 is generally considered to b the "runt" of the Teletype Product line from that era.... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 05:39:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:39:04 +0000 Subject: OT:techology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110454744.4432.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 00:24 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > You might well be able to extract suitable dopants from thsoe. For a moment I thought that "do pants" was something like saying "dohickey"... more coffee needed! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 05:43:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:43:16 +0000 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> References: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1110454996.4413.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 20:26 -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on (Maxtor) ATA > > Drives, please drop me a note off-list. > > This isn't going to make you feel any better (I don't think), but Maxtors > for me have had an abysmal track record. Both are still running just fine in my 18 year old NCR :-) (despite having been parked in a less-than-dry garage for ten years) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 10 08:07:03 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:07:03 -0600 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: References: <200503100426.UAA14708@floodgap.com> <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050310075247.04bed418@mail> At 11:12 PM 3/9/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Board swapping is unlikely to help. Unlike classic drives, modern >drives put their internal 'firmware' (more like DECmate 'slushware') >on factory tracks. Maxtors are prone to amnesia when they can't read >those factory tracks, or the data on them has been corrupted. The >drive geometry, etc., is _not_ stored in the board. >I have an 80 GB drive sitting on a bench in Palmerston North, NZ, >because of this problem... I've cured a few clients' drives with the board-swap trick, but those drives were in the 8 gig generation, not the 80 gig. It would be nice to know for historical purposes exactly which vendors and when they started putting the firmware on the platter. It's the luck of the draw in finding an exact model-number replacement, though - sometimes I got lucky and found it for $4 on eBay. Not long ago I paid $120 for a 6 gig refurb-pull from an online vendor. It's nice when the eBay sellers just scan the face of the drive. You can rest easy you have a match. Never having been in one of those thousand-plus hard drive repair facilities, I'll also add my guesses as to why swapping platters is impossible. When they build the drive, they clamp the platter on the hub, then write it with servo information to let it find its tracks. Swapping platters doesn't work because the two platters will never, ever sit on the hub exactly the same way. (That is, the rotational center of the disc will be slightly different, leading to two dimensions of misalignment.) The expensive places must have some way to pull a platter with the valuable info to be rescued, then re-align to find the true center, then attempt to read the data. This question is certainly a FAQ, though. It was covered in other tangents last fall. Do we have a place to put FAQs? - John From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 09:30:59 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:30:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. Message-ID: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > It would be nice to know for historical purposes exactly which > vendors and when they started putting the firmware on the platter. I don't think it goes quite that far, most drives only store the geometry and block maps on tracks that are normally inaccessible to the user. All the firmware is usually in the memory on the controller. Seagate and Westarn Digital have had common electronics over different capacities from about the 1GB drive size. On Seagates the mechanism was interchangeable between ATA and SCSI controllers, something I used to exploit to transfer large ammounts of data between my Amiga and PC. > I'll also add my guesses as to why swapping platters is impossible. > When they build the drive, they clamp the platter on the hub, then > write it with servo information to let it find its tracks. Swapping > platters doesn't work because the two platters will never, ever sit > on the hub exactly the same way. It doesn't matter, all that's needed is a LL format and all the data tracks are re-written. Some manufacturers provide tools to do this as just doing a format from the OS won't do a LL format. > The expensive places must have some way to pull a platter with the > valuable info to be rescued, then re-align to find the true center, > then attempt to read the data. No need, they use things like dynamic tracking, even on data only platters, if needed but disassembling drives is always avoided if possible. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 10 09:28:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:28:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: People, I clearly read below where David requested that you "drop me a note off-list". It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and the moderators grief. Please police yourselves better. On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, der Mouse wrote: > > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on > > (Maxtor) ATA Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS > > failure and it "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I > > believe the board (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, > > and I want to explore options before sending the drive out for $6K+ > > in repair costs. > > Well, one option might be to try to find an identical drive and swap > boards between then. In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, > swapping logic boards is just a matter of taking a few screws out and > making sure the boards get lined up correctly. But you need an > identical drive to swap with. If the drive is still available, getting > another identical one is likely to run way less than $6K and may well > be worth doing against the chance it'll work. > > You will almost certainly need a torx of the right size, which > probably means a decent set of torxes; every drive I've looked at with > an eye to mechanical disassembly has been held together with torxes. > > For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which > reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; if > I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Mar 10 10:00:59 2005 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:00:59 -0600 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42306F3B.6030301@uiuc.edu> Thanks, Sellam. I was thinking this myself, but hadn't yet found the time to say it :) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > People, > > I clearly read below where David requested that you "drop me a note > off-list". > > It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and > the moderators grief. > > Please police yourselves better. > > On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, der Mouse wrote: > > >>>Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on >>>(Maxtor) ATA Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS >>>failure and it "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I >>>believe the board (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, >>>and I want to explore options before sending the drive out for $6K+ >>>in repair costs. >> >>Well, one option might be to try to find an identical drive and swap >>boards between then. In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, >>swapping logic boards is just a matter of taking a few screws out and >>making sure the boards get lined up correctly. But you need an >>identical drive to swap with. If the drive is still available, getting >>another identical one is likely to run way less than $6K and may well >>be worth doing against the chance it'll work. >> >>You will almost certainly need a torx of the right size, which >>probably means a decent set of torxes; every drive I've looked at with >>an eye to mechanical disassembly has been held together with torxes. >> >>For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which >>reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; if >>I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. >> >>/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>\ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> > > -- Dan Wright (dtwright at uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 10 10:21:39 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:21:39 -0600 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: References: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050310101939.04db2c60@mail> At 09:28 AM 3/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and >the moderators grief. Please police yourselves better. Dayum. Here we go again. I was biting my tongue. I did respond off-list to the original post. Then others posted more on the list. I sincerely thought my post was on-topic because it's about methods of saving old drives, and the topic comes up every 3-9 months. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 10:47:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:47:36 +0000 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050310101939.04db2c60@mail> References: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050310101939.04db2c60@mail> Message-ID: <1110473256.4413.49.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 10:21 -0600, John Foust wrote: > At 09:28 AM 3/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and > >the moderators grief. Please police yourselves better. > > Dayum. Here we go again. I was biting my tongue. I did respond off-list > to the original post. Then others posted more on the list. me too Interesting (to me) question: where else *would* one go for this kind of information? The comp usenet groups will be full of people who only know how to bolt commodity components together. Us lot seem like a reasonable bet for finding people who know pitfalls when hacking drives around. I'm merely curious in case there's some untapped resource I don't know about for this kind of thing! (not electronics, not classic computers, but not noddy PC building either). Anyway, back to hacking SCSI drivers for me. Bleh. cheers J. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 10 11:04:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050310101939.04db2c60@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 09:28 AM 3/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and > >the moderators grief. Please police yourselves better. > > Dayum. Here we go again. I was biting my tongue. I did respond off-list > to the original post. Then others posted more on the list. > > I sincerely thought my post was on-topic because it's about methods of > saving old drives, and the topic comes up every 3-9 months. I hope this doesn't turn into another long-winded thread, but it became apparent to me that some folks might not understand why the purists here would object. Below is the private reply I sent to Lee Davidson explanation the distinction: > What was wrong this time? ATA drives have been around for more than > a decade and are used in other than PC clones. Troubleshooting them, > especially the no longer available small to middling sizes, is a > skill not to be dismissed lightly. Because they aren't classic!!! And also, recognizing this, David specifically request off-list replies. > > Please police yourselves better. > > Oh ok, I find myself guilty and sentence myself to a slightly > disappointed look next time I'm passing a mirror. Hmmm, I can see a > flaw with this policy. 8^)= The difference is between what is and what isn't "classic", based on all the discussions we've had about it on the list. It's possible you skipped by those discussions (I wouldn't blame you) but there is a definitely fine line between what's "classic" (i.e. the stuff we like to discuss on this list) and what's simply "older" (i.e. ATA hard drives). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 11:28:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:28:20 -0500 Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:30:59 +0000 (GMT), lee davison wrote: > > > It would be nice to know for historical purposes exactly which > > vendors and when they started putting the firmware on the platter. > > I don't think it goes quite that far, most drives only store the > geometry and block maps on tracks that are normally inaccessible to > the user. All the firmware is usually in the memory on the controller. The firmware-on-the-drive design is at least a Maxtor thing, not sure about Western Digital, Seagate, or IBM , et al. Specifically, from what I've been able to discover while researching my own dead drive is that it started with Maxtor drives that were based on particular DSP chips... I'm guessing it was a cost-savings measure to not have to put a large FLASH ROM on the board, but to use the wads and wads of storage that could be accessible from a program on a smaller FLASH ROM or even a masked-programmed ROM (not positive about either one). The loss of the ability of the DSP to read this area is the most common cause of Maxtor drives coming up with 0/0/0 geometry (and is not what I was suggesting was the cause of the initial poster's problem). > Seagate and Westarn Digital have had common electronics over different > capacities from about the 1GB drive size. On Seagates the mechanism > was interchangeable between ATA and SCSI controllers, something I used > to exploit to transfer large ammounts of data between my Amiga and PC. "Back in the day" of 1GB drives, which are nearly on topic by themselves, I am pretty certain they were using more traditional techniques to design hard drive boards. I'd have to say that these tricks will probably work through the era of 6.3GB disks... I _think_ things started changing around the 10-20GB era. I haven't personally had a board swap work since the days of the ST-251, but I know it did work for a long time for IDE drives. I just wanted to point out that in in some cases, it doesn't work the way one might expect anymore. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 10 11:29:40 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:29:40 -0500 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. References: Message-ID: <005401c52596$bdbd2960$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. Why not bite the bullit and pick a Day, Month, And Year for what is "classic" and be done with it. You have a 10 year rule now with 100 exceptions that are older then 10 years but nobody wants on the list. Maybe the core people here only care about mainframes from the 60's-70's, if so then just say so and be done with it. I can think of quite a few systems made in the 80's that have much newer equipment added to them (including ATA HD's) for functionality. When you keep older systems running with newer hardware where can you turn for help? From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 10 12:04:46 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:04:46 -0800 Subject: Still OT: list charter -- let's not (was Re: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives..) References: <005401c52596$bdbd2960$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: From: "Teo Zenios" > Why not bite the bullit and pick a Day, Month, And Year for what is > "classic" and be done with it. You have a 10 year rule now with 100 > exceptions that are older then 10 years but nobody wants on the list. Maybe > the core people here only care about mainframes from the 60's-70's, if so > then just say so and be done with it. I can think of quite a few systems > made in the 80's that have much newer equipment added to them (including ATA > HD's) for functionality. When you keep older systems running with newer > hardware where can you turn for help? Let's *not* go down the rat-hole again discussing what should or should not be on topic. That has been done many times, and fairly recently. It is clear that a lot of list members like the way "off topic" has been handled here historically. That said, I want to put in a vote *against* the kind of severe "lets stay on topic" attitude that Sellam's comment evidenced. I think that is simply the wrong solution to the problem of over-worked and underpaid moderators and list maintainers. The solution to that problem is to get more people involved. (I can volunteer to help filter for cctech, if desired.) For my particular hobby of fiddling with PDP-8 computers, at least, there are numerous forums to talk about them, but they are all essentially dead, because there is no community there. We need to walk a line where the topics are mostly related to classic computers in some way, but leave ourselves some slack to "hang out", as well. IMO, that is why this list is more active and interesting than those other forums (and why we keep coming back). Vince From willisjo at zianet.com Thu Mar 10 12:05:19 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:19 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem Message-ID: <20050310180519.38074.qmail@halo.zianet.com> The saga continues... Got the system running finally, but now I can't get the TK50 tape drive to work. Have checked the cabling, reseated everything, and even tried a different TQK50 controller. Have tried the following from VMS 5.1: $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN SYSGEN> SET NOAUTOCONFIG 0 SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL/SELECT=(PT) (at this point the system hangs... same if I omit the /SELECT, and the only way I can get out of it is to halt the system from the console.) Here's what the system is showing: Welcome to VAX/VMS version V5.1 Last interactive login on Thursday, 10-MAR-2005 10:27 $ SHOW DEV Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt DUA0: Mounted 0 VMSRL5 184419 94 1 Device Device Error Name Status Count OPA0: Online 0 TXA0: Online 8 TXA1: Online 0 TXA2: Online 0 TXA3: Online 0 TXA4: Online 0 TXA5: Online 0 TXA6: Online 0 TXA7: Online 0 Device Device Error Name Status Count PUA0: Online 1 Thanks in advance! John P. Willis From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Thu Mar 10 12:17:58 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:17:58 -0600 Subject: ST-238R and ST-225, likely controller? Message-ID: <20050310181758.GC25901@dbz.icequake.net> Hi, A friend has a ST-238R and ST-225 that came out of his XT long ago. We're trying to figure out what the most likely controller that was being used in the original machine so we can recover the data. It must have been 8-bit and support RLL. The best guess I can come up with is the WD 27X (which I used to have). Anyone else have a good guess? I think the ST-225 came with the machine and then the ST-238R was installed as part of a kit. So whatever controllers were usually sold with those as a kit (i.e. from Dirt Cheap or a refurbisher) would be a likely candidate too. For example, my 27X came with a Miniscribe 8438 kit from a refurbisher. Thanks, -- Ryan Underwood, From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 10 12:18:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:18:29 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: References: <005401c52596$bdbd2960$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <42308F75.4030207@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: >For my particular hobby of fiddling with PDP-8 computers, at least, there >are numerous forums to talk about them, but they are all essentially dead, >because there is no community there. We need to walk a line where the >topics are mostly related to classic computers in some way, but leave >ourselves some slack to "hang out", as well. IMO, that is why this list is >more active and interesting than those other forums (and why we keep coming >back). > > > "We can rebuild him - better stronger faster than before" The 6 Billion $ Man > Vince > > The main problem I see with the current crop of PDP-8 clones/replica's today is lack of paper tape and other hardware at the time -- non volatile memory. I could get a cpu chip off people on this list but with out I/O like paper tape or a modern replacement the software for the CPU is very limited in what can run and what can future hold as mechanical devices wear out in time. I think we need to get mechanial minded people ( also a dying breed) to help where electrionic/computer stuff does not cover forgotton techology. Sooner or later Epay will stop having old devices like TTY's and we will have to a) Hoard them, b) Let them wear out c) Rebuild them d) Forget about them. Take your pick ... I favor c but I don't have the skills. Ben allias woodelf From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 12:47:53 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:47:53 +0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <20050310180519.38074.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <20050310180519.38074.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <26c11a6405031010472d0a3125@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:19 -0700, willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > The saga continues... > > Got the system running finally, but now I can't get the TK50 tape drive > to work. Have checked the cabling, reseated everything, and even tried > a different TQK50 controller. Have tried the following from VMS 5.1: > > $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN > SYSGEN> SET NOAUTOCONFIG 0 > SYSGEN> AUTOCONFIGURE ALL/SELECT=(PT) > > (at this point the system hangs... same if I omit the /SELECT, and the > only way I can get out of it is to halt the system from the console.) > > Here's what the system is showing: > > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V5.1 > Last interactive login on Thursday, 10-MAR-2005 10:27 > $ SHOW DEV > > Device Device Error Volume Free Trans > Mnt > Name Status Count Label Blocks Count > Cnt > DUA0: Mounted 0 VMSRL5 184419 94 > 1 > > Device Device Error > Name Status Count > OPA0: Online 0 > TXA0: Online 8 > TXA1: Online 0 > TXA2: Online 0 > TXA3: Online 0 > TXA4: Online 0 > TXA5: Online 0 > TXA6: Online 0 > TXA7: Online 0 > > Device Device Error > Name Status Count > PUA0: Online 1 > > Thanks in advance! > John P. Willis > > I'm not a major expert on vms, but I've had a similar problem on a 4000. I took all the qbus boards out of the machine and put them all in one by one until it booted. The one card left turned out to need termination before vms would boot. You may have a similar problem, try taking everything out apart from the tk50 card and see how that goes with an autoreconfigure. Dan From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 10 12:52:42 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:52:42 -0800 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <005401c52596$bdbd2960$0500fea9@game> <42308F75.4030207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > The main problem I see with the current crop of PDP-8 clones/replica's today > is lack of paper tape and other hardware at the time -- non volatile memory. > I could get a cpu chip off people on this list but with out I/O like > paper tape > or a modern replacement the software for the CPU is very limited in what > can run and what can future hold as mechanical devices wear out in time. > I think we need to get mechanial minded people ( also a dying breed) to > help where electrionic/computer stuff does not cover forgotton techology. I agree that many PDP-8s have the problem that peripherals are unobtainium. I haven't had too much trouble amassing paper tapes and paper tape equipment from eBay. (I hope to make a contribution to bitsavers "real soon".) I have also done some boards to interface some older PDP-8s to "modern" (RS-232) peripherals, which allows at least some of the experience to be preserved. (Though loading paper tape images at high speeds over RS-232 is qualitatively different than noisy 110 baud TTYs.) I am also doing an RX01/RX02 interface board (debugging that is the other project on the "real soon", pile). That would allow you to run OS/8 with peripherals that are still somewhat available (but "vintage", in that they were actually used with some of the later PDP-8s). There are also a few other projects I have been working on to replace all those missing peripherals. > Sooner or later Epay will stop having old devices like TTY's and we will > have to a) Hoard them, b) Let them wear out c) Rebuild them d) Forget about > them. > Take your pick ... I favor c but I don't have the skills. That's why a community is so useful. (Not everyone should need every skill.) Now, if I could get these plastic switch handles to come out the right color and get the little hinge tabs the right shape (and get my taxes done, etc. etc.)... Vince PS Doesn't seem OT to me. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 10 13:08:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:08:31 -0600 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <1110473256.4413.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050310101939.04db2c60@mail> <1110473256.4413.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42309B2F.6060400@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > information? The comp usenet groups will be full of people who only know > how to bolt commodity components together. Us lot seem like a reasonable Not entirely -- not *everyone* on usenet is a case-modder-d00d. The very nature of the fact that they're using Usenet instead of some web-based forum attests to that. It's just a shame that Usenet has so much spam. I still love it (I participate on comp.lang.asm.x86 and comp.compression every day). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 10 13:12:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:12:52 -0600 Subject: ST-238R and ST-225, likely controller? In-Reply-To: <20050310181758.GC25901@dbz.icequake.net> References: <20050310181758.GC25901@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <42309C34.9090909@oldskool.org> Ryan Underwood wrote: Hi Ryan! > A friend has a ST-238R and ST-225 that came out of his XT long ago. > We're trying to figure out what the most likely controller that was > being used in the original machine so we can recover the data. It must > have been 8-bit and support RLL. The best guess I can come up with is > the WD 27X (which I used to have). Anyone else have a good guess? An ST-255 is MFM and probably used an WD1002* controller (although any MFM controller should work). It's a 20MB drive; check web for the cyl/hd/sec count. The ST-238R is an RLL drive -- I'm only casually familiar with RLL so I can't help you there. I do know that matching drive+controller is more important with RLL than MFM, though. > I think the ST-225 came with the machine and then the ST-238R was > installed as part of a kit. It is very possible to use an RLL drive with an MFM controller, but you won't get the rated size out of the drive due to the MFM encoding method. Maybe he just slapped the drive on? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 10 13:47:22 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:47:22 -0600 Subject: ST-238R and ST-225, likely controller? References: <20050310181758.GC25901@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <001c01c525a9$fdddcf00$9b3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Ryan Underwood" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:17 PM > Hi, > > A friend has a ST-238R and ST-225 that came out of his XT long ago. > We're trying to figure out what the most likely controller that was > being used in the original machine so we can recover the data. It must > have been 8-bit and support RLL. The best guess I can come up with is > the WD 27X (which I used to have). Anyone else have a good guess? > > I think the ST-225 came with the machine and then the ST-238R was > installed as part of a kit. So whatever controllers were usually sold > with those as a kit (i.e. from Dirt Cheap or a refurbisher) would be a > likely candidate too. For example, my 27X came with a Miniscribe 8438 > kit from a refurbisher. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ryan Underwood, There were lots of different controllers for the PC/XT. None were data comptatable with the other. The 238 came out later in the picture as far as the PC is concerned. But I personally used at least three 8 bit RLL controllers (WD, Adaptec, and Seagate) there were many others. If you changed controllers you had to do a low level format. If you have some different controllers you will need to do trial and error to find the right one(s). I recomend write protecting the drives by either cutting the write gate line in the cable or putting a piece of tape over the finger. It is also possible that the drives were both formatted MFM. The 225 & 238 were the same drive, I never knew of any real difference other than the label. The MFM & RLL are different encode techniques, RLL requires a very stable spindle speed beyond that required for MFM. Randy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 10 14:10:17 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:10:17 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405031010472d0a3125@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams > Sent: 10 March 2005 18:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:19 -0700, willisjo at zianet.com > wrote: > > The saga continues... > > > > Got the system running finally, but now I can't get the TK50 tape > > drive to work. Have checked the cabling, reseated > everything, and even > > tried a different TQK50 controller. Have tried the > following from VMS 5.1: the uVAX II has a Q22/Q22 backplane so the positioning of the TQK50 is important, as is the RQDX(2/3) disk controller which should be last on the bus. The first 3 slots are CD types and are reserved for CPU/Memory, the rest (I can't remember which size cab you've got) are serpentine so if you've only got the CPU, 2 mem boards and the disk/tape controllers then the TQK50 should be on top of the RQDX3. I notice 8 TX lines which means there's a quad-height DHV11 there, probably next to the memory. If you've got a DEQNA ethernet half-height board as well then that'll mean you have TQK50/DEQNA occupying a quad-height slot and the RQDX3 on its own in the AB side of the slot next to that. Google for 'vax q22/q22 backplane' and you'll find an excellent explanation of how the uvax backplane works. cheers a/w From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 14:33:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:33:13 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? Message-ID: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Just futzing around with this Manta board (SCSI floppy controller). The docs I have say that pin 2 of the floppy connector is normally an input to the controller from the drive, but that some drives expect pin 2 to be an output to the drive from the controller (e.g. for changing rotation speed on a drive capable of 300 and 360rpm) That sounds wrong to me; surely most drives either don't use pin 2 for anything, or they expect it to be an output from the controller (to cope with things like speed changes) What drives use it as a signal driven by the drive, and what for? I'm tempted to ignore the docs I have and configure it as an output from the controller - I'd just rather not blow up a drive or controller board :-) cheers Jules From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 10 14:50:11 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:50:11 -0500 Subject: driving Unibus an Qbus - withan fpga? Spartan 2/2e/3? References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00bd01c525b2$c0e867f0$3a92a8c0@maggie> I'm looking to drive both Unibus and Qbus with 5v tolerant Spartan2 (2.5v) fpga I/Os... anyone done this before? I'v heard of people using 4000 series cmos(??) in instead of the approved DS8640/1, DC005, DEC9881, DEC380 etc Spartan2 3.3V CMOS I/O is 5v tolerant without external resistors, but since lines may have to be series source terminated anyways, Spartan2e or Spartan3 might work as well.. Ideally I'm looking to use the same part for both Unibus and Qbus, possibly fiddling Vref. From willisjo at zianet.com Thu Mar 10 15:18:59 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:59 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Adrian Graham writes: > the uVAX II has a Q22/Q22 backplane so the positioning of the TQK50 is > important, as is the RQDX(2/3) disk controller which should be last on the > bus. The first 3 slots are CD types and are reserved for CPU/Memory, the > rest (I can't remember which size cab you've got) are serpentine so if > you've only got the CPU, 2 mem boards and the disk/tape controllers then the > TQK50 should be on top of the RQDX3. > I notice 8 TX lines which means there's a quad-height DHV11 there, probably > next to the memory. If you've got a DEQNA ethernet half-height board as well > then that'll mean you have TQK50/DEQNA occupying a quad-height slot and the > RQDX3 on its own in the AB side of the slot next to that. > > Google for 'vax q22/q22 backplane' and you'll find an excellent explanation > of how the uvax backplane works. > > cheers > > a/w > I did know about the serpentine weirdness. It caused me a great deal of grief in getting the system to pass its self tests in the beginning, before I stumbled (quite accidentally) across hamster's digital$resources page on Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The RQDX3 is not at the end of the bus. If memory serves (I'll verify this after I get home from work today), the backplane arrangement is something like this: A B C D +-------------------------------------+ | CPU | +-------------------------------------+ | Memory | +-------------------------------------+ | TQK50* | | +-------------------------------------+ | M9047 | | +-------------------------------------+ | RQDX3* | | +-------------------------------------+ | DHV11 | +-------------------------------------+ | ???? ** | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ * I may have these swapped, OR I may have the M9047 swapped with the TQK50 ** This is another board. I believe a general-purpose DMA interface. I'll check when I get home today. Another note, here's some more strange behavior from VMS, which I now believe may also be linked to a QBus misconfiguration: $ SET TERMINAL TXA0:/PERMANENT/INTERACTIVE/DEVICE_TYPE=vt100 %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying TXA0: -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout Here's the info on TXA0: $ SHOW TERMINAL TXA0: Terminal: _TXA0: Device_Type: VT100 Owner: No Owner Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 Terminal Characteristics: Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase Tab Wrap Scope No Remote Eightbit Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup No Modem No Local_echo Autobaud No Hangup No Brdcstmbx DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port Numeric Keypad ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode Advanced_video No Edit_mode DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 No DEC_CRT3 Thanks John Willis From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 10 15:19:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:19:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: driving Unibus an Qbus - withan fpga? Spartan 2/2e/3? In-Reply-To: <00bd01c525b2$c0e867f0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00bd01c525b2$c0e867f0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <65285.64.139.41.130.1110489571.squirrel@64.139.41.130> > I'm looking to drive both Unibus and Qbus with 5v tolerant > Spartan2 (2.5v) fpga I/Os... anyone done this before? Yes, using the DS3662. Unfortunately it has been discontinued, as was the DS8641. Surplus DS8641 chips seem to be not that hard to find, I'd probably use those. > I'v heard of people using 4000 series cmos(??) in instead > of the approved DS8640/1, DC005, DEC9881, DEC380 etc CD4000 CMOS drivers and receivers have nowhere near the required specs. > Spartan2 3.3V CMOS I/O is 5v tolerant without external resistors, FPGA port pins have nowhere near the required specs either. > but since lines may have to be series source terminated anyways, No. Series termination on a multidrop bus is NOT viable. You have to use Thevenin or Thevenin-equivalent termination on the ends of the bus only. > Spartan2e or Spartan3 might work as well.. Still nowhere near the required specs. > Ideally I'm looking > to use the same part for both Unibus and Qbus, possibly fiddling Vref. AFAIK, if you get drivers and receivers that meet the required specs, they will work fine for Qbus, Unibus, and Omnibus. The required specs are: Driver: Vol: 0.7V max at 70 mA - rules out 4000 CMOS and all FPGA pins leakage: 25 uA max, with Vcc from 0V to 5.25V capacitive load: 10 pF max rise and fall times (10%-90% voltage) must be no faster than 5 ns Receiver: Vil: 1.3V max Vih: 1.7V min capacitive load: 10 pF max leakage: 80 uA max at 3.8Vdc, with Vcc from 0V to 5.25V I don't know of any current production parts that meet the Qbus specs. Most drivers don't meet the Vol spec at full current. The receiver Vil and Vih specs are hard to meet, as they aren't typical of logic parts. The leakage specs are also a problem for many parts. DEC used specially selected DS8641 chips. The closest current production chips I've found do not fully meet the specs, but at least come close in many regards: TI SN75138 TI AM26S10 Eric From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 10 15:44:15 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:44:15 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <200503102144.j2ALiarx021077@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The > RQDX3 is not at the end of the bus. If memory serves (I'll > verify this after I get home from work today), the backplane > arrangement is something like this: Do you have grant continuity cards underneath the half-height cards? Ah, no - M9047 is a grant card.... I'd swap it to A B C D +-------------------------------------+ | CPU | +-------------------------------------+ | Memory | +-------------------------------------+ | DHV11 | +-------------------------------------+ | ???? ** | +-------------------------------------+ | TQK50* | RQDX3 | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ | | | +-------------------------------------+ That should sort it out..... cheers a/w From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Mar 10 16:28:06 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:28:06 -0800 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working References: Message-ID: <001101c525c0$6eabab60$6401a8c0@hal9000> One other issue that can cause trouble with the "higher" track numbers is write precompensation. As the track number gets higher you move closer to the center of the disk and the bit density increases. Write precompensation makes adjustments to the write data to compensate for the changes in bit density. This would only be a problem though if you are using double density (MFM). Good luck, Steven C. > > Ok, I finally found an 8" drive that worked. I don't think there's a > coincidence that it's half-height, and seems to have been made in the 1982 > timeframe. I can't tell who the manufacturer is because I haven't > unbolted it from the chassis it's installed in to check yet. > > I was able to format a disk mostly successfully (more on this in a bit) > and transfer MS-DOS 6.22 to it. It was pretty nifty booting DOS on my PC > off an 8" drive ;) > > So anyway, when I was formatting the disk, it didn't seem to like the last > 4-6 tracks or so. Above the clatter of the noisy fan (bad bearings) I > could hear the head recalibrating. When the format finished, it reported > 107520 bytes in bad sectors. This comes out to 210 bad sectors (assuming > 512 bytes per sector) which comes out to some weird number of tracks. > Aren't there supposed to be 26 sectors per track? > > The main hurdle has been jumped, so I'm in good shape at this point. > > Thanks for the tips, all! From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 10 16:29:31 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:31 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <002801c525c0$a5156b00$933cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 2:33 PM > Just futzing around with this Manta board (SCSI floppy controller). > > The docs I have say that pin 2 of the floppy connector is normally an > input to the controller from the drive, but that some drives expect pin > 2 to be an output to the drive from the controller (e.g. for changing > rotation speed on a drive capable of 300 and 360rpm) > > That sounds wrong to me; surely most drives either don't use pin 2 for > anything, or they expect it to be an output from the controller (to cope > with things like speed changes) > > What drives use it as a signal driven by the drive, and what for? > > I'm tempted to ignore the docs I have and configure it as an output from > the controller - I'd just rather not blow up a drive or controller > board :-) > > cheers > > Jules I have a webpage describing disks and disk drives. Pin 2 on a 34 pin floppy connector is a little used pin. It was used to change the RPM on some 5.25" 1.2mb drives. It changed the RPM from 360 RPM (pin 2 high) to 300 RPM (pin 2 low). This was supposed to make it easier to read/write DD disks in a HD drive. Only early AT controllers needed it, later controllers kept this pin high and used an odd transfer rate. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From alanp at snowmoose.com Thu Mar 10 16:41:47 2005 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:41:47 -0800 Subject: Anyone want my old Canon BJ-10e bubblejet printer? In-Reply-To: <200503102155.j2ALt8FH021916@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503102155.j2ALt8FH021916@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4230CD2B.1070009@snowmoose.com> I have an old Canon BJ-10e bubblejet printer. I bought it new back in 1990 or so. I have the printer, an ink cartridge, a printer cable, a power adapter, a user's manual, and a programmer's manual. If you want it, you just need to pay shipping. alan From willisjo at zianet.com Thu Mar 10 16:52:31 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:52:31 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <200503102144.j2ALiarx021077@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Seems to have worked! SHO DEV now has the following output: Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt DUA0: Mounted 0 VMSRL5 184419 94 1 Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt MUA0: Online 0 Device Device Error Name Status Count OPA0: Online 0 TXA0: Online 0 TXA1: Online 0 TXA2: Online 0 TXA3: Online 0 TXA4: Online 0 TXA5: Online 0 TXA6: Online 0 TXA7: Online 0 Device Device Error Name Status Count HXA0: Online 0 HXA1: Online 0 PTA0: Online 1 PUA0: Online 1 on 3/10/05 2:44 PM, Adrian Graham at witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk wrote: >> Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The >> RQDX3 is not at the end of the bus. If memory serves (I'll >> verify this after I get home from work today), the backplane >> arrangement is something like this: > > Do you have grant continuity cards underneath the half-height cards? Ah, no > - M9047 is a grant card.... > > I'd swap it to > > A B C D > +-------------------------------------+ > | CPU | > +-------------------------------------+ > | Memory | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DHV11 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | ???? ** | > +-------------------------------------+ > | TQK50* | RQDX3 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ > > That should sort it out..... > > cheers > > a/w > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 10 16:49:30 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:49:30 -0800 Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models In-Reply-To: <002b01c5244a$e36b3140$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <1110267649.9126.14.camel@linux.site> <002b01c5244a$e36b3140$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1110494970.6416.6.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:54 -0500, Bob Shannon wrote: > I used to own an 11t55. > > It has fast bipolar memory, and a dual unibus configuration. Yea, so does the 11/55 (actually the 11/45 and 11/50 also have a dual unibus config...since they're all based upon the 11/45). So I ask again, what's the diff? Thanks. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:40 AM > Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying to figure out what the difference between a PDP-11/55 and a > > PDP-11/t55 is (other than the obvious "t"). > > > > Anyone out there know? > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 16:55:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:55:01 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <002801c525c0$a5156b00$933cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <002801c525c0$a5156b00$933cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <1110495301.4432.72.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 16:29 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I have a webpage describing disks and disk drives. Yep - most useful it is too! :-) > Pin 2 on a 34 pin floppy connector is a little used pin. It was used to > change the RPM on some 5.25" 1.2mb drives. > > It changed the RPM from 360 RPM (pin 2 high) to 300 RPM (pin 2 low). This > was supposed to make it easier to read/write DD disks in a HD drive. > > Only early AT controllers needed it, later controllers kept this pin high > and used an odd transfer rate. Interesting. I'd always assumed that 1.2MB drives always changed the speed too. I was pondering earlier how much memory it'd take to buffer a whole raw track of data; presumably the maximum would be a 1Mbps rate at 300rpm rotation? (and say sample at 16x, plus store some form of clock info. It still doesn't work out that bad). I'm sure it must be possible to build some gadget that'll hang off a PC parallel port and buffer data to local (static) RAM, allowing slower- speed transfer to/from the host machine. Hopefully without needing microprocessor control (i.e. bunch of RAM, few counters or something :-) Maybe there's some reason it can't be done - otherwise I'd expect someone would have done so by now! :-) cheers Jules From aardvark at fefsi.be Sat Mar 5 08:37:20 2005 From: aardvark at fefsi.be (Gabriele Bozzi) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: From korpela at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:04:50 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:04:50 -0800 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: <422B55BB.6090904@atarimuseum.com> References: <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <422B55BB.6090904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:10:51 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah, I wouldn't up rather disappointed myself as well... I bought the > ISA version and was hoping to eliminate the need to have to keep reading > ST formatted disks into my ST and null-modeming them over to my PC.... Huh? Atari ST disks use MFM encoding and a FAT file system. I can read and write them just fine on a PC. Eric From korpela at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:19:39 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:19:39 -0800 Subject: please advise me of any list problems In-Reply-To: <00a201c5239b$909df060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a201c5239b$909df060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: All of my posts since the change have been swallowed by something.... Testing 1 2 3... Can anyone hear this? From korpela at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:22:13 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:22:13 -0800 Subject: please advise me of any list problems In-Reply-To: References: <00a201c5239b$909df060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: D'oh, they're in the archives now. Sorry for the testing spam On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:19:39 -0800, Eric J Korpela wrote: > All of my posts since the change have been swallowed by something.... > > Testing 1 2 3... > > Can anyone hear this? > From ishtar130 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 16:40:17 2005 From: ishtar130 at hotmail.com (ishtar) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:40:17 -0500 Subject: For Trade: SGI software,manuals,keyboards,mice,machines Message-ID: Hi I noticed on the internet that you or whoever have owners manuals if you still have them I would be intrested in the O2 Workstation Owner's GuideIRIS Software Installation Guide IRIS Workspace User's Guideif you still have these what is the condition and priceThank YouGreg Pishko From korpela at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 17:18:16 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:18:16 -0800 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:43:03 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. > > STOP IT!!!! > > You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a > driver for 8". Does driver.sys in MS-DOS do the trick? Eric From korpela at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:03:46 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:03:46 -0800 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing XP on Sony) In-Reply-To: References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:32 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that > one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an > Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the > 'classicalness', IMHO. It depends upon why you are collecting, I suppose, and what you are doing with the machines you collect. I tend to collect machines for the fun of figuring out what makes them tick, and you can learn a lot by porting an OS to a new machine. You can also learn a lot by upgrading a machine to the max. You learn boatloads by designing new hardware for an old machine. For example, I'm planning my next "just for fun" project. I've got a Tandy 6000HD (The follow-on to the TRS-80 Model 16B, i.e. a Model 2 chassis with a 68000 board). At one point these were the most common UNIX systems in existence, but now they're fairly hard to find. They run Microsoft Xenix. You can put a whole megabyte of DRAM in them. They have a 15MB HDD and an 8" floppy. There were rumors of an Arcnet card for these things. The development kit is crappy, the editors are worse, and there's no hint of software to be found online for this beast. So what am I going to do? First, build a memory board for the thing. 1MB isn't enough. DIP DRAMS are hard to come by, but I've got a box load of 8MB 72 pin SIMMs. Add a gate array for decoding, and I may have the fattest 6000 on the planet. Of course Tandy Xenix won't support the extra memory, so I'll need to port some other UNIX. There's no memory management hardware, so it'll have to be one of the embedded linices or Minix, I suppose. Just figuring out how to get the 68000 to talk to the Z80 for I/O will be a trick. The next problem would be the hard drive. I suppose that I could build an IDE interface, or I could just get a larger MFM drive.... Then there's building an ethernet card. Does it destroy the 'classicalness'? Maybe. But what's the point of having these things if they're just going to sit in a closet? Eric From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Mar 8 21:17:12 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:17:12 -0500 Subject: list queue retention In-Reply-To: <200503090142.RAA21864@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503090142.RAA21864@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050308220338.02ab9750@mail.n.ml.org> I have to agree with Dwight as I have had direct experience from both sides (customer and tech) with similar issues. Once was from a line that got pulled slightly loose doing some repair work (took close to 11 hours from when it happened to the customer calling and complaining to when a couple of us went back out to resolve the issue to actually having the customer back up and running) and once was from when a tech at the telco/ISP tripped over a pile of wiring that was temp uplinking (passfeed) to another rack when they were doing hardware moves. The unexpected disconnection due to his tripping and yanking out/breaking hardware, sent a block of almost 200 subscribers S.O.L. for about 27 hours before it was restored (as the telco/ISP at that point decided: f*** it- it's down, might as well finish doing the move the way we wanted to anyhow). Also had a few occurrences of the telco/ISP doing the "whoops" when making changes for someone else in the field and a few "um, no, uh, it can't be us" issues when they have a brilliant engineer decide to do a IOS/Firmware/OS, etc upgrade to a router bank in the early morning hours... unannounced and downing the network for the customer for several days while trying to fix it. There are no ass-nazi penguin hippies hanging out with grey/green aliens with huge anal-probes looking to get you because you are so unique. Put the lube away, take some nummy chocolate-coated valium and relax, seriously. ...Oh, and watch out for that 12 legged flying monkey on your right (grin). -John Boffemmyer IV At 08:42 PM 3/8/2005, you wrote: > >From: msokolov at ivan.harhan.org > > > >Jay West wrote: > > > >> In case no one caught my previous post on this, a few days ago I moved = > >> the queue retention time back up to a reasonable value. > > > >Thank you! > > > >> I suspect Michael Sokolov is testing this out for me, his name servers = > >> (and thus email) have been down a few hours. > > > >Do you really think that I, after having earned the trust of my circle of > >friends (who all have accounts on my various servers, and use and depend on > >various services hosted at my data centre) as a competent, reliable and > >trustworthy professional system and network administrator for our Circle, > >would deliberately shut it down, screwing all our users?! There must be > >something seriously wrong with your thinking if you indeed thought so. > > Lighten up. Jay was just kidding. > >---snip--- > >DSLAM and the CPE to sync up. So the problem detected by TDR, which they > >dispatched a local telco tech to fix, was NOT an open, but something else. > >I very strongly suspect foul play. > > >---snip--- > > Wow, you are paranoid. It was more likely that some other >tech ( while trying to find another clean line to fix >a complain about noise ) accidentally bent a wire to cross >your line at one of the junction boxes. This kind of thing >happens regularly ( about every 6 months or so ) to my home >line because I live in an area with a lot of noisy line ( water >in cable ). > Why does everything that happens need to be a conspiracy. >Clumsy techs are much more common than sneaky people. If someone >was actually doing what you suggest, they would most likely have >done a better job. If it wasn't working for you, it most likely >wasn't working for them either. >Dwight ---------------------------------------- Founder, Network Engineer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html ---------------------------------------- From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Mar 9 05:17:51 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:17:51 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422E530D.7070604@compsys.to> References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> <422D631F.9010909@gjcp.net> <422E530D.7070604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <26734.195.212.29.83.1110367071.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Once done, the SET command values are held in the > DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to > do the SET commands each time. Probably not > recommended in any case. Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then? Makes sense. I'll try it when I get home. > Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the > DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster > response after the first usage. In addition, I > strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ > unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has > a serious impact on the program which you run. Well, the idea is to load TSX-Plus over it, which requires the SJ monitor. > In addition, it would be helpful to know the full > version number of the RT-11 version which you are > using. Based on the above SET commands, it must > be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released > in 1985. There are certain features which later > versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be > aware of. the RT-11 command: > SHOW CONFIG > will provide the information, as will the banner > when RT-11 first boots. On bootup, and in SHOW CONFIG, the version is given as 5.00. > Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET > values which have been suggested since they > impact very negatively with regard to booting > RT-11. You will not lose anything with a Ok, why is that? > different combination of SET parameters, but > you will gain with respect to what drives > can be booted, in particular from a cold start. In this instance I want to boot from a "clean" install of RT-11 from DL0, but eventually I will be booting from DU0. > The exact nature of which disk drives are being > used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an > RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11 OK, this is where it gets tricky. I'm not totally sure how to identify the ST506 drives fitted to the machine. One is a full-height 5.25" drive, with (seemingly) about 65,000 blocks on each partition. The other is half-height, with considerably less on each partition - one is around 40,000 blocks, one is around 16,000 blocks (if I remember correctly - I'm not actually near the machine right now to check). The smaller drive is made by Fujitsu, may be something like M224XAS ? The label is rather hard to read. The other drives are an RL02 (I have two but lack the cable that links the two drives) and an RX02. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Mar 9 08:58:44 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:58:44 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <24748.195.212.29.67.1110380324.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Once done, the SET command values are held in the > DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to > do the SET commands each time. Probably not > recommended in any case. Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then? Makes sense. I'll try it when I get home. > Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the > DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster > response after the first usage. In addition, I > strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ > unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has > a serious impact on the program which you run. Well, the idea is to load TSX-Plus over it, which requires the SJ monitor. > In addition, it would be helpful to know the full > version number of the RT-11 version which you are > using. Based on the above SET commands, it must > be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released > in 1985. There are certain features which later > versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be > aware of. the RT-11 command: > SHOW CONFIG > will provide the information, as will the banner > when RT-11 first boots. On bootup, and in SHOW CONFIG, the version is given as 5.00. > Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET > values which have been suggested since they > impact very negatively with regard to booting > RT-11. You will not lose anything with a Ok, why is that? > different combination of SET parameters, but > you will gain with respect to what drives > can be booted, in particular from a cold start. In this instance I want to boot from a "clean" install of RT-11 from DL0, but eventually I will be booting from DU0. > The exact nature of which disk drives are being > used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an > RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11 OK, this is where it gets tricky. I'm not totally sure how to identify the ST506 drives fitted to the machine. One is a full-height 5.25" drive, with (seemingly) about 65,000 blocks on each partition. The other is half-height, with considerably less on each partition - one is around 40,000 blocks, one is around 16,000 blocks (if I remember correctly - I'm not actually near the machine right now to check). The smaller drive is made by Fujitsu, may be something like M224XAS ? The label is rather hard to read. The other drives are an RL02 (I have two but lack the cable that links the two drives) and an RX02. Gordon. From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Mar 9 12:26:02 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:26:02 -0500 Subject: TI-99 Stuff Message-ID: <422F3FBA.E3BFFA2@mindspring.com> Hey gang, I've got a couple of TI-99 thingys that need a new home: 1.) Pair of joysticks 2.) RF Modulator 3.) Donky Kong game 4.) Star Trek game 5.) Speech Synthesizer >From what I understand, some of this stuff is hard to come by... So, I'd like to get something for it. Offers anyone? BTW: I'm in Western North Carolina SteveRob From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Mar 9 22:23:35 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:23:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <200503100423.XAA4699784@shell.TheWorld.com> >So I imagine any device drive with the X at the end is the better one to >use with the XM monitor? Or is it mandatory to use X device drivers in >the XM monitor? It is mandatory... the system knows to append an X to any two-character device name >So this brings up another question: I've noticed that I don't explicitly >need to LOAD device drivers for the devices I want to use when I boot >RT-11. In particular, I don't need to LOAD DD when I want to use the >TU58 simulator. Are they found and loaded automatically when the OS >boots, or...? Most utilities and user applications know to .FETCH device drivers they need in order to do their task. After they are done, the drivers are .RELEAsed. If they are LOADed before the program is executed, a .FETCH and .RELEA are no-ops. If they aren't loaded and aren't .FETCHed, then they simply are not in memory. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Mar 9 22:28:13 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:28:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <200503100428.XAA4695310@shell.TheWorld.com> >I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy at >the moment). >SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0 >SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 >SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2 >SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0 Although these will work, I have found that for purposes of simplicity, and maximizing the ability to boot a given disk on multiple configurations, it is best to use the lower DU unit numbers for physical drives, and the higher ones for logical mappings. So, for example, I would have SET DU0 UNIT=0 PART=0 SET DU1 UNIT=1 PART=0 SET DU2 UNIT=2 PART=0 SET DU3 UNIT=3 PART=0 SET DU4 UNIT=0 PART=1 SET DU5 UNIT=0 PART=2 (when you use the 64-unit version of the driver, you're on your own...:-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Mar 9 22:34:10 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:34:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: Message-ID: <200503100434.XAA4700793@shell.TheWorld.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >Mapped - Device drivers are ddX.SYS >------ >RT11XM - (eXtended Memory) Allows both a Foreground and a Background > job more recent versions also allow system jobs Don't forget RT11ZM (extended memory monitor with separate I&D support) and RT11ZB (Single-job version of extended memory monitor with separate I&D support) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jos.dreesen at philips.com Thu Mar 10 02:09:28 2005 From: jos.dreesen at philips.com (jos.dreesen at philips.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:09:28 +0100 Subject: HP integral : schematics / pinouts sought... Message-ID: I have current;ly on my bench an old HP Integral Unix luggable.... Doesn't boot, powersupply seems to be OK. Therefore : anyone have schematics, or, more in particular, a pinout for the Sharp LJ512U03c EL-display, used in the Integeral ? ( I did google, bitsavers and Sharp itself....) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jos Dreesen jos.dreesen at philips.com Philips Semiconductors , BL Cellular systems, PSZ Zurich Tel +41 1 465 1162 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bv at norbionics.com Thu Mar 10 16:19:12 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:19:12 +0100 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 00:43:38 +0100, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > BTW, in order to call it "2.88M", you would need to use3 the IBM drive > de3finition of "megabyte" of 1024000. If you define a Megabyte > ("Mebibyte") as 1048576, then "1.44M" has 1.40625 M, and "2.88M" > has 2.8125 M. Since this is not a binary matrix of bits, it seems most reasonable to use SI units, in which case a megabyte should be 1000000. Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is not directly linked to a processor architecture. And if we should talk of bytes on diskettes anyhow, what is the smallest individually adressable unit of information on a diskette? -- Bj?rn - who has worked on architectures with bytes ranging from 4 to 18 bits. From bv at norbionics.com Thu Mar 10 16:19:12 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:19:12 +0100 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 00:43:38 +0100, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > BTW, in order to call it "2.88M", you would need to use3 the IBM drive > de3finition of "megabyte" of 1024000. If you define a Megabyte > ("Mebibyte") as 1048576, then "1.44M" has 1.40625 M, and "2.88M" > has 2.8125 M. Since this is not a binary matrix of bits, it seems most reasonable to use SI units, in which case a megabyte should be 1000000. Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is not directly linked to a processor architecture. And if we should talk of bytes on diskettes anyhow, what is the smallest individually adressable unit of information on a diskette? -- Bj?rn - who has worked on architectures with bytes ranging from 4 to 18 bits. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 10 17:12:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:12:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8' drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <001101c525c0$6eabab60$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <001101c525c0$6eabab60$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <46528.64.139.41.130.1110496352.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Steven wrote: > write precompensation. [...] This would only be a problem though if > you are using double density (MFM). It's more critical for MFM, but it improves the reliability of FM as well. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 10 17:18:01 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:18:01 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: "Adrian Graham" "RE: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem" (Mar 10, 20:10) References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <10503102318.ZM29658@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 10 2005, 20:10, Adrian Graham wrote: > the uVAX II has a Q22/Q22 backplane so the positioning of the TQK50 is > important, as is the RQDX(2/3) disk controller which should be last on the > bus. No. It's only the RQDX1 that has the "must be last on the bus" problem, and only then if what's below it uses DMA and interrupts. RQDX2 and RQDX3 have no such limitation. You won't find an RQDX1 in a MicroVAX II because it is not compatible with the MicroVAX II processor. > The first 3 slots are CD types and are reserved for CPU/Memory, the > rest (I can't remember which size cab you've got) are serpentine so if > you've only got the CPU, 2 mem boards and the disk/tape controllers then the > TQK50 should be on top of the RQDX3. Well, as you mention the cabinet size, perhaps you realise this, but I'll spell it out: The backplane in a BA23 is three Q22-CD slots followed by serpentine slots; the BA123 is 4 slots of Q22-CD then serpentine. MicroVAX IIs came in both types. In either case, you must, of course, put the CPU and memory at the top, but there is nothing to prevent use of any remaining Q22-CD slot for anything else. Just remember only the left-hand side of a Q22-CD slot actually has Qbus signals on it (there are some quad boards that won't work in a Q22-Q22 slot; I can't think of any offhand that won't work in a Q22-CD slot but that doesn't mean there aren't any). The MicroVAX II Micronotes actually show such a configuration, with a processor, single memory card, a DEQNA, an RQDX2, and a DHV11 (with the DHV11 last, as usual). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:38:54 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:38:54 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503102339.j2ANd7YR029966@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Willis [mailto:willisjo at zianet.com] > Sent: 10 March 2005 22:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Adrian Graham > Subject: Re: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem > > Seems to have worked! > SHO DEV now has the following output: Good stuff - I've been having enough grief with QBUS myself today getting a KDA50 running on a VAX 4000-505A (I forgot the DSSI bus takes the primary disk controller location AND the grant continuity resistors) so it's nice to get someone else up and running :) a/w From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:41:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:41:58 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <200503102144.j2ALiarx021077@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <200503102144.j2ALiarx021077@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:44:15 -0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The > > RQDX3 is not at the end of the bus. If memory serves (I'll > > verify this after I get home from work today), the backplane > > arrangement is something like this: > > Do you have grant continuity cards underneath the half-height cards? Ah, no > - M9047 is a grant card.... > > I'd swap it to > > A B C D > +-------------------------------------+ > | CPU | > +-------------------------------------+ > | Memory | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DHV11 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | ???? ** | > +-------------------------------------+ > | TQK50* | RQDX3 | > +-------------------------------------+ There are *3* CD slots in a BA23. Since I saw your reply that "this works", let me give you one thing to look for... make sure that there are no grant jumpers on the CD side of the DHV11 if you want to retain this arrangement. It's legal to tap power/ground when not using the CD socket for what it's for, but it's important not to short any CD data lines together. You would *need* those grant jumpers in place when putting the DHV11 in any lower slot (a Q22/Q22 slot), but you want them out in slot 3 (Q22/CD). Alternately, you could arrange the bus this way (and I _would_) A--B--C--D [ -- CPU --] [ -- MEM --] [TQK50][empty] [-- DHV11 --] [-- mystery card --] [RQDX3][empty] The grant chain goes down through the TQ50, across the DHV11, across the mystery DMA card, then down to the RQDX3. You could also put the M9047 grant card in the AB side of slot 6 and the RQDX3 in the CD side of slot 6, in case you wanted to leave room for a dual-height option later. -ethan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 10 17:30:48 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:30:48 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: willisjo@zianet.com "Re: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem" (Mar 10, 14:18) References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <10503102330.ZM29674@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 10 2005, 14:18, willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > I did know about the serpentine weirdness. It caused me a great deal of > grief in getting the system to pass its self tests in the beginning, before > I stumbled (quite accidentally) across hamster's digital$resources > page on Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The RQDX3 is > not at the end of the bus. No, it's not that... > If memory serves (I'll verify this > after I get home from work today), the backplane arrangement is >something like this: > A B C D > +-------------------------------------+ > | CPU | > +-------------------------------------+ > | Memory | > +-------------------------------------+ > | TQK50* | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | M9047 | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | RQDX3* | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DHV11 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | ???? ** | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | | | > +-------------------------------------+ That's what's wrong. Assuming this is in a BA23, you don't have interrupt or DMA grant continuity. The first three slots are Q22-CD but (if this is a BA23) the fourth is Q22-Q22 so you need something in the RHS (slots C+D) of row four: A B C D +-------------------------------------+ | CPU | +-------------------------------------+ | Memory | +-------------------------------------+ | TQK50* | | +-------------------------------------+ | M9047 | RQDX3 | +-------------------------------------+ | DHV11 | That's the only reason you have a grant card; it is to sit next to a dual-height card in a Q22-Q22 slot. If this were a BA123, you'd not need it at all. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 10 17:29:41 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:29:41 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Floppy drive pin 2 question?" (Mar 10, 20:33) References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503102329.ZM29669@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 10 2005, 20:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Just futzing around with this Manta board (SCSI floppy controller). > > The docs I have say that pin 2 of the floppy connector is normally an > input to the controller from the drive, but that some drives expect pin > 2 to be an output to the drive from the controller (e.g. for changing > rotation speed on a drive capable of 300 and 360rpm) > > That sounds wrong to me; surely most drives either don't use pin 2 for > anything, or they expect it to be an output from the controller (to cope > with things like speed changes) Yes, but I believe some drives did use pin 2 to signal the controller in some way. I've never (knowingly) come across one, but I'm told some Apple drives did this. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:51:10 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:51:10 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:59 -0700, willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > I did know about the serpentine weirdness. It caused me a great deal of > grief in getting the system to pass its self tests in the beginning, before > I stumbled (quite accidentally) across hamster's digital$resources > page on Qbus. However, I think you may have hit on something. The RQDX3 is > not at the end of the bus. If memory serves (I'll verify this > after I get home from work today), the backplane arrangement is something > like this: > A B C D > +-------------------------------------+ > | CPU | > +-------------------------------------+ > | Memory | > +-------------------------------------+ > | TQK50* | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | M9047 | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | RQDX3* | | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DHV11 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | ???? ** | > +-------------------------------------+ I commented elsewhere, but if you literally have this arrangement (one memory card), you aren't passing grant on the right side of slots 4 and 5. If this "memory picture" is not entirely accurate, you might still have a grant issue. The RQDX3 does not have to be the last card on the bus (unlike the RQDX1, which _does_), but it was customary to put it there, partially due to the cable which comes up from the bottom of the card cage and might cause interference issues with some other option cards' cables. Also, it has a command queue, etc., sufficiently long that it won't starve at the end of the bus, so it's safest to put it there. Normally, communications cards and tape cards are considered time-critical because of the nature of tape moving past heads and bits passing down the wire cause extra work if they have to be re-done. Disk interfaces of this era are sufficently complex that they don't need to be at the front of the bus. Note that this was more of an issue in the days before the uVAX-II when peripherals had shorter internal buffers and needed to be prioritized or they might suffer bus starvation. It was also common to put an M9047 grant card in the AB part of slot 3 as a place-holder for a memory option later. That prevented having to completely rejigger all the cards, which might be required if one had a dual-height option (like a DEQNA or TQK50) in slot 3. Given that Qbus grant cards were in no way as common as Unibus grant cards, it wasn't a universal practice, but it's still a good idea if one has a spare grant card lying around. Hope this clears up some of the voodoo of Qbus configuration. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:02:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:02:45 -0500 Subject: driving Unibus an Qbus - withan fpga? Spartan 2/2e/3? In-Reply-To: <65285.64.139.41.130.1110489571.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00bd01c525b2$c0e867f0$3a92a8c0@maggie> <65285.64.139.41.130.1110489571.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:19:31 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Yes, using the DS3662. Unfortunately it has been discontinued, as was the > DS8641. Surplus DS8641 chips seem to be not that hard to find, I'd > probably use those. We used DS8641s with our Unibus COMBOARD line with great satisfaction. Of course, we also use DC013s for the interrupt logic, and the only place I know to get those is from dead boards. > I don't know of any current production parts that meet the Qbus specs. > Most drivers don't meet the Vol spec at full current. The receiver Vil > and Vih specs are hard to meet, as they aren't typical of logic parts. > The leakage specs are also a problem for many parts. DEC used specially > selected DS8641 chips. It's not a DEC Qbus design, but I did see SMT 7438s on CompuServe's 80386 X.25 node processors. I couldn't ever get my hands on one, but I did get to stare at one on the bench once... the cages were true Qbus, 9 slots per processor (3 independent backplanes per enclosure), with modern, not DEC, peripheral cards. From that standpoint, I guess one would more accurately describe them as "a bus standard in the style of the DEC Qbus", since by the end of the CompuServe Qbus X.25 Node era, it was 100% purpose-built hardware and 0% DEC, removing the requirement for enforced backwards compatibility. But that having been said, I think the 7438 comes closest to satisfying most of the required bus characteristics, and would probably work in anything short of a maxxed-out arrangement (which is why DEC's spec are as stringent as they are - they guaranteed a wide performance range). In short - the 7438 isn't a perfect hit, either, but it was used back in the day, and might be good enough for most applications. -ethan From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 10 18:07:43 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:07:43 -0500 Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. In-Reply-To: References: <422B55BB.6090904@atarimuseum.com> <1110120852.24093.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <422B55BB.6090904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050310185301.03ba8c48@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Eric J Korpela may have mentioned these words: >On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:10:51 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > Yeah, I wouldn't up rather disappointed myself as well... I bought the > > ISA version and was hoping to eliminate the need to have to keep reading > > ST formatted disks into my ST and null-modeming them over to my PC.... > >Huh? Atari ST disks use MFM encoding Yes... > and a FAT file system. Not quite. There are subtle differences that makes them "not quite compatible." > I can read and write them just fine on a PC. If I format a floppy in my ST and save files to it, I can read it in my PC without too many problems - however, files copied to the floppy from the PC would quite often not read right in the ST. I don't know if it was timing/interleave issues, or if there were bytes in the FAT which the ST considered optional that the PC required (or vice versa)... At least that's by my recollection... I do know that I did have some troubles trying to move files to and fro via floppy-based sneakernet. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:17:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:17:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging In-Reply-To: <422FA630.10803@nktelco.net> from "Charles H. Dickman" at Mar 9, 5 08:43:12 pm Message-ID: > This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the > use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. A general comment. When I don't have the right extender, or in cases like this when you can't use one, what I generally do is solder some wires to useful points on the board, put the board back in, and probe the free ends of the wires. Don't try this on fast stuff, but for the 8/e it should be fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:33:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 Saga Continues... In-Reply-To: <32ddc6d32dff05.32dff0532ddc6d@optonline.net> from "dvcorbin@optonline.net" at Mar 9, 5 08:45:23 pm Message-ID: > Then I bought a unit and had it shipped. Poorly packed, it was > virtually destroyed (ok the case was destroyed) in transit. Pictures are > at www.dynamicconcepts.us/Teletype. After some re-construction, it is > powered up, but I have been completely unable to get the h-plate properly > aligned... > > So, I wend up to Vermont [I am in NY] to pick up another teletype. > This one I carefully transported back (after some disassembly), but once > it was back together....you guessed it....I cant align the DA$&*#*@MN > H-Plate! The first thing to check is that you have the typing unit correctly seated on the rubber mounts. If not, the H-plate will never fit. Then fit the H-plate into the lever on the typing unit (side with the deep slot to that lever). Slide it to the left with a screwdriver in the slot, then turn the motor by hand (the H-plate will rock as you do this) until it will slot in to the lever on the keyboard. Sometimes it helps to press a key to release the keyboard mechanism. If you've got this far, there can basically only be 3 problems. 1) The trasmit clutch engages all the time (even though the keyboard trip lever is in the down, untripped, position) 2) Pressing a key does not release the trasnmit clutch 3) After presssing a key, the transmit clutch engages all the time until you reset the trip lever by hand. What's happening on your units? [...] > that], the type cyclinder spinds and lifts, the hammer strikes...and a > really faint improperly alligned imnage is all that gets printed [Yes I > have a brand new ribbon on it]. Do you know the ribbon is still good (they can dry out in storage) > > So at this point, I am wondering how to address this problem...The > cylinder is well cleaned (boy was there buildup), the characters look > sharp on it, the rubber bumper on the hammer is in apparant good > condition [and not "soft"].... > > > Any clues appreciated... [wishing there was a traveling teletype I assume you've got the maintenance manuals... >From what I rememebr, if the chracter is darker one side than the other, you loosen the nut on top of the cylinder and slightly rotate it. If it's darker at the top or bottom, you adjust the platten assembly position. Have you been over the lubrication instructions? If the hammer lever is sticking, it won't print properly. Personally I'd strip the carriage down and clean and lubricate it, but you probably don't want to do that.... > repairman who wanted to come to Long Island NY....] YEs, but you can't afford me :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 17:58:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:58:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <42308F75.4030207@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 10, 5 11:18:29 am Message-ID: I actually don't see why this is off-topic, but anyway... > The main problem I see with the current crop of PDP-8 clones/replica's today > is lack of paper tape and other hardware at the time -- non volatile memory. > I could get a cpu chip off people on this list but with out I/O like > paper tape > or a modern replacement the software for the CPU is very limited in what > can run and what can future hold as mechanical devices wear out in time. > I think we need to get mechanial minded people ( also a dying breed) to \begin{rant} Is that suprising? At least over here the only prople who seem to get any sort of respect are those who can kick a football or strum a guitar badly. Engineers, scientists, etc, are worthless. Heck, you don't get any friends if you'd rather spend an evening holding a logic probe rather than a beer glass \end{rant} Sorry, this is a sore point with me, and with most of my friends.... I nearly added a couple of books on metalwork / lathe operation to my list of recomemnded books for classiccmpers, but I thought I'd probably be flamed for being off-topic. Books like : The Amateur's Lathe Various books from the 'Workshop Practice' series. And many others in the Camden booklist (and probably available from Lindsay Books). Anyway, a small lathe is something that most classiccmpers should probably consider owning. Small meaning < 4" centre height or so. Even something like a Peatol (Taig) or a Unimat is enough to make a lot of parts for classic computers. I have a Myford Super 7, which is a bit larger. A vertical slide is very useful becaue it lets you do small milling jobs too. Of course a proper milling machine is much better, but also a lot more expensive and takes up a lot more room. I regard both the 3 jaw self-centring and 4-jaw independant chucks as being essential. Along with the tailstock drill chuck, a set of centres, a faceplate and a reasonable selection of cutting tools. With such a machine (and skill which I don't possess yet!) you can make most small mechanical bits for your classic computers. Bearing housings, pulleys, bushes, spacers, spindles, etc. You can also, of course, use the lathe to make more tools. Not just things like pullers, drifts, etc (sometimes essential to do repairs without damage), but also things like that injection moulding machine that was mentioned a week or so ago. And that would be quite capable of making keycaps, switch toggles, etc. Is this off-topic? I don't know. > help where electrionic/computer stuff does not cover forgotton techology. > Sooner or later Epay will stop having old devices like TTY's and we will > have to a) Hoard them, b) Let them wear out c) Rebuild them d) Forget about > them. > Take your pick ... I favor c but I don't have the skills. I favour (c) too. To me, not having the skills is a good reason to start learning... Let's be honest. You don't _depend_ on your PDP8. You are not going to die, or be unable to afford food, or whatever if it's down for a month or more. Which means that if it takes you a month to get the skills to make the part you need, well, that's part of classic computing. I would recomend trying to find (or make?) an optical paper tape reader. They're kinder to the tapes, and they have many fewer wearing parts in them. I am, perhaps, lucky. I rescued 4 or 5 Trend paper tape readers about 10 years ago. These are very simple mechanically (and the eleectronics isn't much worse!). All the parts likely to fail are either standard (ball races) or can be made on a small lathe. In fact the part that fails most often is the illumination bulb, and that's a standard 12V car bulb in most of them, and a 24V lorry bulb in the others. I wouldn't fancy trying to make some of the parts from, say, an ASR33 at home, but it's suprising what can be done if you have to.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 18:11:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:11:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installing In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Mar 8, 5 04:03:46 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:32 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that > > one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an > > Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the > > 'classicalness', IMHO. > > It depends upon why you are collecting, I suppose, and what you are > doing with the machines you collect. I tend to collect machines for > the fun of figuring out what makes them tick, and you can learn a lot > by porting an OS to a new machine. You can also learn a lot by > upgrading a machine to the max. You learn boatloads by designing new > hardware for an old machine. I would agree 100%. I have no problems at all with making reversable modifications to classic computers. Reversable includes things like sticking in homebrew boards, I don't like doing major modifications to existing boards. The thing I rwas really commenting on was running an OS that's already been ported to the machine in qurstion, so you have to do no work, and don't learn anything in the process. Let's stick with Radio Shack machines. I have a Model 4, which as I am sure you're aware, runs either TRS-DOS 6 or CP/M (OK, and all the Model 3 OSes, but you don't generally get all the Model 4 features then). I don't like running CP/M on my M4. There's nothing to learn by so doing (it's an already-ported version, the CBIOS is already written, etc). I have what I consider to be better CP/M boxes. No, the M4 runs TRS-DOS almost exclusively. I would, however, have no problem with somebody who wants to write their own OS for the M4. That's something that is worth doing, that they'll learn a lot from doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 10 18:25:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:25:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP integral : schematics / pinouts sought... In-Reply-To: from "jos.dreesen@philips.com" at Mar 10, 5 09:09:28 am Message-ID: > > I have current;ly on my bench an old HP Integral Unix luggable.... Lovely machine... > > Doesn't boot, powersupply seems to be OK. Does it do anything at power-on. Do you get the Thinkjet 'shuffle'? (The thinkjest printer has its own controller, it's really an HPIL-interfaced device...). If not, then maybe you've not getting the power-OK signal from the PSU. FWIW, the pinout of the power connectoes to the 2 logic boards (same on each board, but not all pins used) is : +5V --o +5V --o Gnd --o Gnd --o +12V--o +15V--o +18V--o -12V--o Gnd --o PwrOK --o > Therefore : anyone have schematics, or, more in particular, a pinout for > the Sharp LJ512U03c EL-display, used in the Integeral ? Argh!!! The HPCC scheamtics CD-ROM contaisn reverse-engineered schematics for the Integral, but I didn't include the display itself. It's not an HP part, it seemed to be all custom chips. The 2 logic boards, PSU, keyboard, etc _are_ included. If you want this, yoy need to contact Dave Colver (secretary at hpcc.org). That said, I at least have what I think is a pinout for the 20 wire display cable. 1 Gnd --o o-- Gnd V+ --o o-- V+ (>18V) +5V --o o-- Gnd Gnd --o o-- Gnd Rst --o o-- Gnd VSync --o o-- Gnd HSync --o o-- Gnd Dotclk -o o-- Gnd DotsA --o o-- Gnd DotsB --o o--Gnd You should see some activity on the Dotclk, syncs and dots lines. Do you get anything on the display at all? -tony From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 10 18:45:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:45:14 -0500 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> Message-ID: <16944.59930.747965.213945@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Ron Hudson wrote: >> I am beginning to write a simulator for a "microcomputer", it will >> feature a curses (terminal) front panel. it will be a 12 bit >> machine. You will be able to issue commands to the simulator >> without stopping the program (for mounting virtual paper tapes, >> printing to files etc) Tom> Cool! If you haven't, check out Donald Knuth's fictional MIX Tom> computer. It's a mishmash of a bunch of "contemporary" (1970s) Tom> architectures. The cool thing about is there is SOFTWARE written Tom> for it, even though it never physically existed. It's even a supported target in the GCC compiler. paul From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 10 18:49:26 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:49:26 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503110007.j2B076IA031343@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> What we need so badly is a USB universal floppy disk controller. It has to do 8" (single and/or double sides & density), 5.25" (both 360k and 1.2MB) and 3.5", at least 2 drives of each type. Ideally totally configurable to read/write any format, even "non-standard" formats (including 1k sectors on 8" drives, Microsoft's 3.5" "DMF" format, etc.) Can't anyone design one? It's way over my head, but I'd buy one in a flash. I'm desperate enough that I've been taking apart 3.5" USB drives hoping to find one that was a USB controller with a standard 3.5" drive. So far, they have ALL been "integrated" devices. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 10 18:52:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:52:39 -0500 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16944.60375.84894.922830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> No ... I think it was decimal or base 64 depending on the woodelf> computer instruction set used. I like decmal machines but woodelf> thay don't make decimal addressed memory. Sure they do, or did. An IBM 1620 had 5 digit addresses, with your choice of 20k, 40k, or 60k (where k == 1000 of course) digits of core memory. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 10 19:00:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:00:35 -0500 Subject: OT:techology References: <422D2814.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> <1110280509.390.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16944.60851.393617.955151@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 21:20 -0700, woodelf wrote: >> Hmm sand and bamboo how would you do that ?... Jules> Argh, don't ask things like that. Jules> You've got gravity. Dry sand flows pretty well. Bamboo is Jules> hollow and so can be used to channel dry sand Jules> around. Different lengths of bamboo could be used to introduce Jules> delays. Doubtless you could make basic logic gates. Slightly different, but... many years ago I read some articles about "fluidics" -- a clever no-moving-parts technology for creating the equivalent of simple logic gates powered by gas or fluid flow. The basic idea is that you can guide a jet of fluid or gas into one of two outlets by sending it a steering pressure from one side or the other. Presto changeo, a "form C" relay, or if you wish, a buffer/inverter. I thought of building some logic with that, but being only about 12 years old at the time I didn't have the facilities. Anyway, clearly building a small computer out of those parts is a good exercise for the student. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:01:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:01:52 -0500 Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging In-Reply-To: <422FA630.10803@nktelco.net> References: <422FA630.10803@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:43:12 -0500, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > I added support to SPCWR3.PA for the VC8/I. > > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA Nice! Thanks! > This requires an EAE and now I find out that my untested EAE does not work. Doh! I didn't even think of that. :-( I don't have a single EAE for _any_ machine. The closest I could think about getting would be to bum some M-series boards from a working machine/disk controller and stuff them in my -8/i, but ISTR there are a few wire changes to make as well, so I think I'd rather not do that if I thought I'd have to remove it. In any case, I don't have a genuine VC8/I in the first place, or it might be attractive to try. Ah, well... maybe _someday_ I'll run across the parts I need to pull this off. > I got a copy of MAINDEC-8E-D0LB-D which is EAE test 1 and it locked up > pretty much the same way. I removed the EAE and the diagnostic halted at > a reasonable place insteading of locking up. Sounds ominous. > This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the > use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. I don't know if you have access to any DEC module blocks, but it might be possible to rig up a flexible over-the-top connector if you have a couple of single-slot wire-wrap connectors and some wire-wrap wire. Alternately, if you have some single-height proto cards, one could manufacture a couple of over-the-top extension cables, space the CPU out two more spaces, put the EAE board under test in the middle of the three blank spaces on a quad extender, and hang one paddle card upside down under each over-the-top connector to route the signals a few inches in the air over some ribbon cable... Hopefully, you can envision this arrangement. Write me offline if it's not clear enough and I'll try to describe it better. I don't think any of these signals are critical enough that a couple of ns of wire is going to cause any problems. Unfortunately, I can provide no insight on the EAE fault itself; I have no experience with it. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 10 19:03:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:03:58 -0500 Subject: OT:techology References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D37@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200503081147.12007.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Message-ID: <16944.61054.80381.199679@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mark" == Mark Wickens writes: Mark> I'm waiting for someone to invent a display that can be used in Mark> direct sunlight, so I don't have to work in what is Mark> affectionately called the 'coffin' aka 'caravan by the sea with Mark> windows blacked out'. Mark> When will that be...? Available today, if you have the money. Cockpit displays are, obviously, designed to be fully readable in bright sunlight. paul From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Mar 10 19:18:47 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:18:47 -0800 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain><002801c525c0$a5156b00$933cd7d1@randylaptop> <1110495301.4432.72.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000f01c525d8$46b2be10$6401a8c0@hal9000> Jules, I proposed doing exactly that (i.e. passing "raw" floppy data through a parallel port) last year along with some simple math that showed it could be done. The concept was "poo-poo'd" by some, but in the real world it has been done already to image the following; Amiga (".ADF"), Apple disk ][ (".DO"), Atari ST (".ST"). Commodore 1541 (".D64"), PC (".IMG") and single-density (".DSK"). The URL for the write-up and software is; http://disk2fdi.joguin.com/D2FCABLE.htm Very cool! Best regards, Steven C. > On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 16:29 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > I have a webpage describing disks and disk drives. > > Yep - most useful it is too! :-) > > > Pin 2 on a 34 pin floppy connector is a little used pin. It was used to > > change the RPM on some 5.25" 1.2mb drives. > > > > It changed the RPM from 360 RPM (pin 2 high) to 300 RPM (pin 2 low). This > > was supposed to make it easier to read/write DD disks in a HD drive. > > > > Only early AT controllers needed it, later controllers kept this pin high > > and used an odd transfer rate. > > Interesting. I'd always assumed that 1.2MB drives always changed the > speed too. > > I was pondering earlier how much memory it'd take to buffer a whole raw > track of data; presumably the maximum would be a 1Mbps rate at 300rpm > rotation? (and say sample at 16x, plus store some form of clock info. It > still doesn't work out that bad). > > I'm sure it must be possible to build some gadget that'll hang off a PC > parallel port and buffer data to local (static) RAM, allowing slower- > speed transfer to/from the host machine. Hopefully without needing > microprocessor control (i.e. bunch of RAM, few counters or something :-) > > Maybe there's some reason it can't be done - otherwise I'd expect > someone would have done so by now! :-) > > cheers > > Jules > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 10 19:25:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:25:41 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 19:49 -0500, Barry Watzman wrote: > What we need so badly is a USB universal floppy disk controller. Personally I'd rather have parallel or serial or SCSI interfaces, but each to their own :-) But yep, agreed. I certainly need *something* that can archive / restore classic formats to/from modern(-ish!) media. > Can't anyone design one? It's way over my head Over mine too really. I'd be able to build one given a schematic, but probably couldn't design something from scratch. Actually, I'd much prefer a schematic anyway for peace of mind as well as curiousity value. Given the know-how on the list I'm suprised there hasn't been a collective effort in the past to build something. Maybe the majority of us either: 1) only specialise in one machine and so do backups in whatever way's easiest for our own hardware, 2) are lucky enough to be blessed with online archives of software so backups aren't needed 3) aren't taking any backups at all! :-) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 19:26:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:26:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> > On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 00:43:38 +0100, Fred Cisin wrote: > > BTW, in order to call it "2.88M", you would need to use3 the IBM drive > > definition of "megabyte" of 1024000. If you define a Megabyte > > ("Mebibyte") as 1048576, then "1.44M" has 1.40625 M, and "2.88M" > > has 2.8125 M. > Since this is not a binary matrix of bits, it seems most reasonable to use > SI units, in which case a megabyte should be 1000000. In which case, it would be 2.95M 2949120 2 sides * 80 tracks per side * 36 sectors per track * 512 bytes per sector Likewise, a "1.44M" diskette only has 1.44M if you use the IBM "megabyte" of 1024000. If you use an HONEST Megabyte, of 1048576, then it has 1.40625 M. If you use your 1000000 Bytes per Megabyte, then it would 1.47M 1474560 2 sides * 80 tracks per side * 18 sectors per track * 512 bytes per sector Or do you also want a Kilobyte to be 1000 bytes? > Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is not > directly linked to a processor architecture. Byte is 8 bits. Word often varies, though > And if we should talk of bytes on diskettes anyhow, what is the smallest > individually adressable unit of information on a diskette? That would depend on YOUR terminology, which could make it be anywhere from a flux transition to a sector, or even a FILE! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Mar 10 19:31:11 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:31:11 -0800 Subject: Age References: <200502262147.NAA18532@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002b01c525da$01c67a10$6401a8c0@hal9000> Age: 0011 0010 (BIN), 62 (OCT), 32 (HEX) or 101011 (Excess-3 Gray Code).. Systems came online 1954. First computing device (circa 1973) HP-35 (still works perfect) First computer to program (circa 1973) GE-210 donated to our College by a bank. Languages ingested: BASIC (various including "TINY"), FORTRAN, COBOL (yeech!), FORTH, TILE, LISP, LOGO, and Assembly for 8085, 1802, 8751 and 6502. First home-built computer 1802 COSMAC, Second one used the Rockwell FORTH chip used for various robotics projects. Working (now) on a "cluster" for sh!ts and grins. Most early College classes used IBM punched cards and "batch" processing overnight. Early professional programming used ASR-33 with a $100 an hour mainframe at the other end running SPICE plus my code (BASIC) for RF scattering parameters and polar / rectangular conversions. I'm primarily a hardware guy and not a code pig. First "real" computer was an ATARI 400, then 800, 1200, etc.. 20 year run at Hughes Aircraft; used an Intel MDS-800 (ISIS), Tek 8550, PC-Base "ICE" developing code in Assembly and Micro-FORTH (later FIG-FORTH) for processors above. Engineering consultant for the last five years. Best regards, Steven Canning From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 19:34:31 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:34:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050310173133.I59692@shell.lmi.net> > On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:43:03 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > Trying to use 80 tracks can destroy your drive. > > STOP IT!!!! > > You should NEVER use it to boot DOS unless you get Open-DOS and create a > > driver for 8". On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Does driver.sys in MS-DOS do the trick? The versions of DRIVER.SYS provided by MS, or in PC-DOS, do NOT have a 77 track entry. But one or more of the MS-DOS OEM suppliers could have created one; look particularly in V2.11 and V3.31 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 10 19:44:52 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:44:52 -0500 Subject: HP integral : schematics / pinouts sought... Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050310204452.00a4e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have all three of the service manuals for the IPC and the Service ROM. According to the manual, when you turn the IPC on the yellow light on the printer reset button should flash twice and then go out. Then the print head should move to the right and then return home. Next the red lite on the disk drive should light momentarily and the drive should click. About three seconds later the display should light up and display "Executing the RAM, MMU, and the short keyboard test, please stand by". Are you getting any of those? The manual is quite clear that the most likely fault that prevents turn on is a power supply fault. It doesn't give any information about the display itself except for a general description (512 x256 pixels) and that it uses 180 to 200 volts to operate and that the HV drivers are on the driver bvoard attached to the screen. There is a description and schematic of the Logic Board B that interfaces to the display. Mostly it just converts the display data to a serial format and the data is sent into the display serially and there is some fancy timing to reverse the polarity of the high voltage on alternate screen cycles to prevent degrading the screen. Joe Ij:09 AM 3/10/05 +0100, you wrote: >I have current;ly on my bench an old HP Integral Unix luggable.... > >Doesn't boot, powersupply seems to be OK. >Therefore : anyone have schematics, or, more in particular, a pinout for >the Sharp LJ512U03c EL-display, used in the Integeral ? > >( I did google, bitsavers and Sharp itself....) > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- >Jos Dreesen jos.dreesen at philips.com >Philips Semiconductors , BL Cellular systems, PSZ Zurich >Tel +41 1 465 1162 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ > From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 10 19:57:00 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:57:00 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503102329.ZM29669@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <008e01c525dd$a139b140$f33dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:29 PM > On Mar 10 2005, 20:33, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Just futzing around with this Manta board (SCSI floppy controller). >> >> The docs I have say that pin 2 of the floppy connector is normally > an >> input to the controller from the drive, but that some drives expect > pin >> 2 to be an output to the drive from the controller (e.g. for changing >> rotation speed on a drive capable of 300 and 360rpm) >> >> That sounds wrong to me; surely most drives either don't use pin 2 > for >> anything, or they expect it to be an output from the controller (to > cope >> with things like speed changes) > > Yes, but I believe some drives did use pin 2 to signal the controller > in some way. I've never (knowingly) come across one, but I'm told some > Apple drives did this. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I have a webpage on disks and disk drives, I mention the Apple but that about it. My page is 99% SA400 & SA800 based interfaces. For other disk drives only the FM & MFM discussions may apply. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 10 19:54:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:54:42 -0500 Subject: Anopther new toy! Tektronix 4025 terminal Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050310205442.00a70840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I visted one of my "sources" today and he had a surprise for me, a Tektronix 4025 terminal!* I brought it home but haven't had time to try it out yet. I googles but didn't find much about it. Can anyone tell me more about this thing? * Also three more Intel 86/330 computers, two Intel 80/20 computers and a big pile of manuals :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 10 20:26:52 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:26:52 -0500 Subject: Opinions? BeOS Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What do you think of it? Joe From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 10 20:42:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:42:13 -0600 Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <20050310173133.I59692@shell.lmi.net> References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> <20050310173133.I59692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42310585.8070506@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>Does driver.sys in MS-DOS do the trick? > > The versions of DRIVER.SYS provided by MS, or in PC-DOS, do NOT have a 77 > track entry. But one or more of the MS-DOS OEM suppliers could have > created one; look particularly in V2.11 and V3.31 No, but you can use a TSR BIOS patch (a memory-resident driver) to patch DOS into making any diskette work (it doesn't rely on BIOS but rather the actual geometry of the formatted disk). FDFORMAT comes with a small TSR to do this; the once-popular 2M did this too. 2M even got into the Linux mtools (http://man.he.net/man1/mformat for example). As for FDFORMAT and 2M, any simtel mirror should have them... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Mar 10 20:50:25 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:50:25 -0500 Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> ZIP drives, and Compaq ATA drives will actually modify the data in some sectors, there is indeed firmware control over the data written to disk. Most often this is only for the boot block, but Compaq drives often have a 'fixed' partition with their diagnostics and remote admin crud. These ATA drives are useless on other machines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lee davison" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. > >> It would be nice to know for historical purposes exactly which >> vendors and when they started putting the firmware on the platter. > > I don't think it goes quite that far, most drives only store the > geometry and block maps on tracks that are normally inaccessible to > the user. All the firmware is usually in the memory on the controller. > > Seagate and Westarn Digital have had common electronics over different > capacities from about the 1GB drive size. On Seagates the mechanism > was interchangeable between ATA and SCSI controllers, something I used > to exploit to transfer large ammounts of data between my Amiga and PC. > >> I'll also add my guesses as to why swapping platters is impossible. >> When they build the drive, they clamp the platter on the hub, then >> write it with servo information to let it find its tracks. Swapping >> platters doesn't work because the two platters will never, ever sit >> on the hub exactly the same way. > > It doesn't matter, all that's needed is a LL format and all the data > tracks are re-written. Some manufacturers provide tools to do this as > just doing a format from the OS won't do a LL format. > >> The expensive places must have some way to pull a platter with the >> valuable info to be rescued, then re-align to find the true center, >> then attempt to read the data. > > No need, they use things like dynamic tracking, even on data only > platters, if needed but disassembling drives is always avoided if > possible. > > Lee. > > > > > > > > > . > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Mar 10 20:53:45 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:53:45 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installingXP on Sony) References: <422AD689.9070603@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001d01c525e5$8bcf3c00$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J Korpela" To: "Ethan Dicks" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installingXP on Sony) > On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:51:32 -0500, Ethan Dicks > wrote: >> This case aside, though, I basically agree with Tony's assertion that >> one should run a classic OS on classic hardware - why put NetBSD on an >> Amiga when one can run AmigaDOS? It takes something out of the >> 'classicalness', IMHO. > > It depends upon why you are collecting, I suppose, and what you are > doing with the machines you collect. I tend to collect machines for > the fun of figuring out what makes them tick, and you can learn a lot > by porting an OS to a new machine. You can also learn a lot by > upgrading a machine to the max. You learn boatloads by designing new > hardware for an old machine. > You can learn boatloads writing a new OS for a classic machine. Many early mini's had very little software available. Even less of it is 'usable' in a practical sense. What if anything is wrong with developing new software for older systems? From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 10 20:55:10 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:55:10 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <422F62C7.7010509@gjcp.net> References: <422F62C7.7010509@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4231088E.6090306@compsys.to> >Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Jerome Fine replies: >> Once done, the SET command values are held in the >> DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to >> do the SET commands each time. Probably not >> recommended in any case. > > Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then? Makes > sense. I'll try it when I get home. Jerome Fine replies: Also, if the device driver is LOADed (or Resident - i.e. system device), then the SET commands for DU(X).SYS will not take immediate effect. Some device drivers do, but DU(X).SYS do not. You must first UNLOAD or BOOT. If the SET commands prevent a BOOT, you are stuck until you can fix them from off that partition. If you need help, I can suggest a way. Easy, but time consuming and open to an error in some cases. So be careful if you are making changes to any bootable device drivers for any RT-11 partition. >> Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the >> DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster >> response after the first usage. In addition, I >> strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ >> unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has >> a serious impact on the program which you run. > > Well, the idea is to load TSX-Plus over it, which requires the SJ > monitor. I think that FB will work as well in most cases, but NOT RT11XM! If you first: BOOT RT11FB and then try "RUN TSX", you will find out. You may need to UNLOAD other device drivers. >> In addition, it would be helpful to know the full >> version number of the RT-11 version which you are >> using. Based on the above SET commands, it must >> be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released >> in 1985. There are certain features which later >> versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be >> aware of. the RT-11 command: >> SHOW CONFIG >> will provide the information, as will the banner >> when RT-11 first boots. > > On bootup, and in SHOW CONFIG, the version is given as 5.00. Something is VERY wrong!! RT-11 partitions were NOT possible until V05.03 of RT-11 in 1985. Can you please confirm the RT-11 version number? >> Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET >> values which have been suggested since they >> impact very negatively with regard to booting >> RT-11. You will not lose anything with a > > Ok, why is that? If you do decide to boot RT-11 directly on power up, the required set command is: SET DUn: PORT=0, UNIT=n, PART=0 The code in the EPROMs for a hardware boot of DUn: will ONLY boot physical drive "n". Under RSX-11 and RSTS/E where hard drives do not have partitions, the above SET command does not exists, so there is no conflict. In RT-11, the user is allowed to map "unusual" relationships, so you need to understand the reasons and the restrictions. RT-11 is NOT able to do a hardware boot on a non-zero partition. (Until V05.06 of RT-11, the distributed DEC monitors could not do a software boot of a non-zero RT-11 partition due to one missing instruction in the boot program.) (Also until V05.03 of RT-11, the SET commands for DU did NOT allow RT-11 partitions.) Assuming you have one DU hard drive and an RX50, you want to use (to be able to do a hardware boot): SET DU0: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=0 (for the hard drive) SET DU1: PORT=0, UNIT=1, PART=0 (for the first RX50) SET DU2: PORT=0, UNIT=2, PART=0 (for the second RX50) Thereafter, the choice is yours. I usually recommend: SET DU4: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=1 (second RT-11 partition) SET DU5: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=2 (third RT-11 partition) Remember, until V05.06 of RT-11, you can't boot DU4: or DU5: The above information applies to distributed DEC software. I have fixed some of the early versions, but it is of interest very rarely and only to software fellows who use very large hard disk drives. I finally managed to obtain some Hitachi ESDI DK515-78 600 MByte hard drivers which manage 20 RT-11 partitions EACH. The Maxtor XT8760E also had that capacity as well. I hope this helps. Ask some more if you have other questions. >> different combination of SET parameters, but >> you will gain with respect to what drives >> can be booted, in particular from a cold start. > > In this instance I want to boot from a "clean" install of RT-11 from DL0, > but eventually I will be booting from DU0. You ca experiment with the correct values of the SET commands while you BOOT from DL0:, after which you can copy the DU(X).SYS file to the DU partition along with the monitor you are going to use. The command: COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11FB.SYS DU0: with then set everything up on the DU partition. As long as the DL0: partition is still available, then any mistakes can easily be corrected when you BOOT from DL0: A word of caution is to never change both at the same time. As long as you can boot from one, it will be possible to fix things. You can also use VM: as a temporary RT-11 partition and experiment separately with RT11FB and RT11XM since the device drivers are separate. You can copy all the *.SYS files to VM: and then: BOOT VM:RT11XM even if you were running RT11FB as long as you make sure that the "base" for both VM.SYS and VMX.SYS are identical. With a 4 MByte memory on the PDP-11, there are 4096 blocks available using just 2 MBytes of the PDP-11 memory or much more than needed for all the SYS and SAV files, let alone other files for a working RT-11 system. >> The exact nature of which disk drives are being >> used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an >> RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11 > > OK, this is where it gets tricky. I'm not totally sure how to identify > the ST506 drives fitted to the machine. One is a full-height 5.25" > drive, > with (seemingly) about 65,000 blocks on each partition. The other is > half-height, with considerably less on each partition - one is around > 40,000 blocks, one is around 16,000 blocks (if I remember correctly - I'm > not actually near the machine right now to check). The smaller drive is > made by Fujitsu, may be something like M224XAS ? The label is rather > hard > to read. It sounds like you have a non-DEC controller which emulates MSCP. I use and ESDI version myself with Hitachi DK515-78 600 MByte drives with 600 MBytes. The controller is the Sigma RQD11-EC quad ESDI controller which can handle 4 ESDI hard drives. The RQD11-EC emulates MSCP under RT-11. > The other drives are an RL02 (I have two but lack the cable that links > the > two drives) and an RX02. That should be easy to fix. I suggest you ask on the list for an extra cable. I seem to remember that the cable you need is the same as the normal cable (that you are probably using right now) between the part attached to the 40 pin cable that is then attached to the RL02 controller at the other end. Just move the terminator to the bottom connector on the second drive and connect the first RL02 drive to the second RL02 drive - connect the bottom connector on first drive to the top connector on the second drive. It is usually sufficient under RT-11 to have 2 RL02 drives if you have a few spare RL02 media for backup. A TK25 is also not bad, but MSCP drives, especially an MSCP magneto optical such as a Sony SMO S-501 is really great. Unfortunately SCSI Qbus host adapters are still a bit expensive. I would never use a TK50 as a backup drive since comparing the file written to the TK50 tape with the original file takes too long. A TK70 is acceptable. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 10 21:00:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:00:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <64091.64.139.41.130.1110510036.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Bob wrote: > ZIP drives, and Compaq ATA drives will actually modify the data in some > sectors, there is indeed firmware control over the data written to disk. I've used "IDE" (ATAPI) ZIP drives extensively on PDP-11 systems and on PCs running Linux, and I've never encountered a case where the drive wrote anything to disk other than exactly what it was told to write. Possibly the Iomega Windows drivers might interfere, but I never use those, since they won't run on either Linux or the PDP-11. Eric From kurt at k-huhn.com Thu Mar 10 21:09:43 2005 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:09:43 -0500 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> On Mar 10, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Joe R. wrote: > I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? > What > do you think of it? > Works great on my BeBox. :) BeOS is an oddity in OS circles. It's very much what you might expect from OpenStep, sort of. Well, if you mixed OpenStep with a liberal dose of multimedia. It's very strange, but in a very comforting way. :) -- Kurt Huhn "A rebel I came, and I'll die just the same kurt at k-huhn.com On the cold winds of night you will find me" --Seven Nations From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 21:11:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:11:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got 8" drive on PC working In-Reply-To: <42310585.8070506@oldskool.org> References: <001401c521f6$3bcb7c70$9f3cd7d1@randylaptop> <20050310173133.I59692@shell.lmi.net> <42310585.8070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050310185431.U59692@shell.lmi.net> > >>Does driver.sys in MS-DOS do the trick? > Fred Cisin wrote: > > The versions of DRIVER.SYS provided by MS, or in PC-DOS, do NOT have a 77 > > track entry. But one or more of the MS-DOS OEM suppliers could have > > created one; look particularly in V2.11 and V3.31 > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > No, but you can use a TSR BIOS patch (a memory-resident driver) The BIOS does NOT need any patches. DOS needs to be patched, or provided with an appropriate driver. And to answer the SPECIFIC question > >>Does driver.sys in MS-DOS do the trick? NO, the versions of DRIVER.SYS from MS or IBM do NOT do it. > to patch DOS > into making any diskette work (it doesn't rely on BIOS but rather the actual > geometry of the formatted disk). FDFORMAT comes with a small TSR to do this; > the once-popular 2M did this too. 2M even got into the Linux mtools > (http://man.he.net/man1/mformat for example). As for FDFORMAT and 2M, any > simtel mirror should have them... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Mar 10 21:11:44 2005 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:11:44 -0600 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> Message-ID: <42310C70.8070802@uiuc.edu> Kurt Huhn wrote: > > On Mar 10, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Joe R. wrote: > >> I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What >> do you think of it? >> > > Works great on my BeBox. :) > > BeOS is an oddity in OS circles. It's very much what you might expect > from OpenStep, sort of. Well, if you mixed OpenStep with a liberal dose > of multimedia. It's very strange, but in a very comforting way. :) > I like it. I have a dual PII-233 I run it on and it's FAST on that hardware :) It's sort of unix-y-ish, but not really, and kind of openstep-ish, but not really. Fun to mess with, and it has a really interesting thread/process model and programming APIs. If you're interested in that sort of thing it would be cool to play around with :) -- Dan Wright (dtwright at uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 22:13:19 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:13:19 -0800 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <42310C70.8070802@uiuc.edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> <42310C70.8070802@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: >Kurt Huhn wrote: >> >>On Mar 10, 2005, at 9:26 PM, Joe R. wrote: >> >>> I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What >>>do you think of it? >>> >> >>Works great on my BeBox. :) >> >>BeOS is an oddity in OS circles. It's very much what you might >>expect from OpenStep, sort of. Well, if you mixed OpenStep with a >>liberal dose of multimedia. It's very strange, but in a very >>comforting way. :) I'd never have thought to compare BeOS to OPENSTEP, but in some ways I can see that comparison. Though OPENSTEP has a serious relationship with Unix, BeOS simply attempts to be POSIX compatible. It has a totally none Unix filesystem (IIRC, it's a database), but like OPENSTEP, it has it's own GUI rather than using X-Windows. >I like it. I have a dual PII-233 I run it on and it's FAST on that >hardware :) It's sort of unix-y-ish, but not really, and kind of >openstep-ish, but not really. Fun to mess with, and it has a really >interesting thread/process model and programming APIs. If you're >interested in that sort of thing it would be cool to play around >with :) I ran one of the last developer releases a little on my PowerMac 8500/180, and it was quite impressive. Latter I used BeOS 4.5 briefly on my old dual 400Mhz Celeron, and it was awesome! The downside is development ground to a halt. There has been some modern activity, and there is even work being done on an Open Source version. It would have been nice to see it continue, but after Apple bought NeXT rather than Be, Inc. they sort of started to run out of steam. I might be typing this on a dual 2Ghz G5 running Mac OS X, but I can't help but thinking how much better the system would be if it had been BeOS based, rather than OPENSTEP based. The good thing about them buying NeXT was getting Steve Jobs back, but BeOS was a far more efficient OS. And yes, I've run OPENSTEP and BeOS on the same system. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 10 22:20:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:20:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bootstrapping modern file-transfer tools... Message-ID: <20050310200408.D942@localhost> I'm trying to find a way to get a modern file-transfer protocol program into my Nova 4/X. I'm close to abandoning the Kermit source I have for Data General RDOS... I got it from U Columbia's Kermit site; it's the FORTRAN5 output of a RATFOR preprocessor, there's no RATFOR source, and though it compiles, it seems to not talk to the console. Since it's algorithmic output it's very hard to read. On simulogics.com is a KERMIT in dump format (similar to LBR files, functionally) but it's binary. I've got a decent FORTRAN IV compiler, what I can't find is a FORTRAN IV kermit. There's a bunch of mainframey fortran kermits, but no one seems to think about portability (eg. putting all the console/serial I/O in stub functions) and none are careful to use portable libraries, and all that. Worse, Kermit seems to have abandoned the idea of a bootstrap system (except for one unix version) with utterly base-minimal compliance and features. Anyone have code? I am considering writing a proprietary system that transfers fixed-length line-oriented blocks consisting only of ASCII numbers and line control; real FORTRAN IV doesn't do text (some proprietary libraries do). The only thing I have now is minicom as terminal emulator. sending/receiving paced ASCII67 text (thanks Jules for the tip on ascii-xfer). From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 10 22:25:39 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:25:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... Message-ID: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> I need some advice on finding a few expendables: * non-lint swabs for cleaning hard disk heads. I've googled a bunch of likely suspects, intended for the electronics industry, of appropriate size, but does anyone use such a thing you've found to be suitable, before I leap into the terrifying unknown (all of $9.95's worth)? Obviiously to be dunked in 99% isopropyl. * "Rotron Filtercoat". Sticky aerosol goo you spray onto aluminum mesh filters to trap dust. My lab is really dusty. The rack has a nice airbox at the bottom with noisy fan. Any suggestions as to a replacement for this long-lost product or workalike? From sloboyko at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 22:29:03 2005 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:29:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts Message-ID: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> woodelf wrote: >The main problem I see with the current >crop of PDP-8 >clones/replica's today is >lack of paper tape and other hardware >at the time -- non volatile memory. Actually, it's possible to build a reader fairly easily. I liberated read mechanisms from Remex "Director" readers I picked up cheap on eBay, and built a microcontroller stepper controller/serializer (which was fairly trivial-the power to the stepper is done with 0-brainer power FETs; it was not difficult to reverse engineer the connections to the head). The smallest one I built is not much bigger than the read mechanism itself, and runs on an old laptop power supply. It will do only about 60 CPS mostly due to power limitations, but how fast can you handle tape (I have reeled units that I built serializers for also). All of the readers and mechs that I have are industrial strength, and I beleive that in home use the mechanisms will last essentially forever (certainly longer than I will). Older Remex's used now-unobtainable lightbulbs, which I have replaced as needed with high-power LEDs (the "Intel" readers used Remex mechanisms). The oldest reader I have is an Oktronics (NIB) which had a very special (and broken) lightbulb. The #$@$#@ lightbulb cost $42-I couldn't bear hacking LED's into it. It is possible to build a "slot" type reader with LED's and photodiodes; I built one but abandoned it when I built the mechanized units because they are "neater". The real problem in a paper tape "ecosystem" is in the punches, "handling equipment" and the tape itself; I got lucky and got a lot of Mylar cheap some time ago, as well as some real DEC fanfold and reel tape. Mylar tape is now fabulously expensive at retail. The older DSI punches are very rebuildable; I got a very beat-up one in, replaced the belts (standard) and the caps in the power supply, made a replacement chad box from a $2.00 radio shack project box and some Velcro and it works great. If the electronics fails (I think that they use an F8 microprocessor) I'll just replace it with work-alike modern electronics. I have a FACIT reader that was severely damaged in shipping, but it has a good punch head. I intend to make a smaller case for it and run it with a microcontroller and FETs; I think I can reduce the power requirements by only punching one hole at a time (obviously, it will be slower, but who cares). Most of the size/weight in the thing is in the colossal linear power supply. Again, this mechanism in home use could last a very long time. Paper tape is a PITA and fun at the same time. I like to point out to friends that the data on the metallized Mylar tape will be readable (even visually!) and usable long, long after their hard disks are very deep down in landfills! -Steve Loboyko Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl Nixie Watch (one-tube):http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/complwatch.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 10 22:41:30 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:41:30 -0700 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4231217A.3010009@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What > do you think of it? On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. It's a very different OS, and sort of a strange "fit&finish" to the user interface. Very slick, very developer-oriented. Doc From jimmydevice at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 23:03:47 2005 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:03:47 -0800 Subject: Anopther new toy! Tektronix 4025 terminal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050310205442.00a70840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310205442.00a70840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <423126B3.3020005@verizon.net> Joe R. wrote: > I visted one of my "sources" today and he had a surprise for me, a >Tektronix 4025 terminal!* I brought it home but haven't had time to try it >out yet. I googles but didn't find much about it. Can anyone tell me more >about this thing? > > * Also three more Intel 86/330 computers, two Intel 80/20 computers and >a big pile of manuals :-) > > Joe > > > > The 4025/4027 series terminals do graphics with programmable character sets and vector graphics support. depending on the option boards installed. I think it has about 10 character sets standard. I have a 4027 color and a 4025 mono?. Neither has been powered up in 10 years. 15 years ago I did a color character set for rogue running under UTek on a Tek 6250. I still have the manual, but it's buried n the shed. I'm going to do some spring cleaning and will be dumping a bunch of stuff on e-bay because my contract at Intel is over tomorrow and i'm going to be real hungry. I'll get the manuals and do some scanning.I believe the CPU in the terminal is a Z80? Jim Davis. From jnugen at one.woovis.com Thu Mar 10 23:35:35 2005 From: jnugen at one.woovis.com (James Nugen) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:35:35 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <42312E27.8090702@one.woovis.com> Barry Watzman wrote: >What we need so badly is a USB universal floppy disk controller. > I was just thinking about that the other day. I found this chip which looks pretty nice: http://www.smsc.com/main/catalog/usb97cfdc2_01.html >I'm desperate enough that I've been taking apart 3.5" USB drives hoping to >find one that was a USB controller with a standard 3.5" drive. So far, they >have ALL been "integrated" devices. > > You might have better luck with ones that have a "765B Floppy Disk Controller", such as this: http://www.cmicomputer.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi?product=fd1.44u&detail=yes -James Nugen From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 10 23:51:50 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:51:50 -0500 Subject: Opinions? BeOS References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4231217A.3010009@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <015001c525fe$6b8f4700$ea781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:41 PM Subject: Re: Opinions? BeOS > Joe R. wrote: > > > I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What > > do you think of it? > > On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years > ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. > > It's a very different OS, and sort of a strange "fit&finish" to the > user interface. Very slick, very developer-oriented. > > > Doc Was there much software released for it? From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Mar 11 00:11:09 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:11:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > I need some advice on finding a few expendables: > > * non-lint swabs for cleaning hard disk heads. I've googled a > bunch of likely suspects, intended for the electronics industry, > of appropriate size, but does anyone use such a thing you've found > to be suitable, before I leap into the terrifying unknown (all of > $9.95's worth)? Obviiously to be dunked in 99% isopropyl. Back in my film business days, we used boxes of a product called "Kimwipes" - several varieties/sizes - some lint-free, and they were, too!. Cheers John From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 11 00:43:07 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:43:07 -0700 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We use Kimwipes where I work. (General Dynamics AIS) on 3/10/05 11:11 PM, John Lawson at jpl15 at panix.com wrote: > > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> I need some advice on finding a few expendables: >> >> * non-lint swabs for cleaning hard disk heads. I've googled a >> bunch of likely suspects, intended for the electronics industry, >> of appropriate size, but does anyone use such a thing you've found >> to be suitable, before I leap into the terrifying unknown (all of >> $9.95's worth)? Obviiously to be dunked in 99% isopropyl. > > Back in my film business days, we used boxes of a product called > "Kimwipes" - several varieties/sizes - some lint-free, and they were, > too!. > > Cheers > > John > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 00:40:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:40:24 -0700 Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <16944.60375.84894.922830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> <16944.60375.84894.922830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42313D58.8070007@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: >Sure they do, or did. An IBM 1620 had 5 digit addresses, with your >choice of 20k, 40k, or 60k (where k == 1000 of course) digits of core >memory. > > > I was thinking 'solid state' memory ... Sigh! > paul > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Mar 11 01:53:01 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:53:01 -0800 Subject: [OT] Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: References: <200503100441.XAA19858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050310235231.03a5d870@mail.zipcon.net> and your post is on topic how? At 07:28 AM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >People, > >I clearly read below where David requested that you "drop me a note >off-list". > >It is these very off-topic threads that break out that are causing Jay and >the moderators grief. > >Please police yourselves better. > >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, der Mouse wrote: > > > > Any one with experience on doing electrical troubleshooting on > > > (Maxtor) ATA Drives, please drop me a note off-list. I just had a PS > > > failure and it "took-out" a drive with some fairly critical data. I > > > believe the board (rather than the platter itself) took the bullet, > > > and I want to explore options before sending the drive out for $6K+ > > > in repair costs. > > > > Well, one option might be to try to find an identical drive and swap > > boards between then. In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, > > swapping logic boards is just a matter of taking a few screws out and > > making sure the boards get lined up correctly. But you need an > > identical drive to swap with. If the drive is still available, getting > > another identical one is likely to run way less than $6K and may well > > be worth doing against the chance it'll work. > > > > You will almost certainly need a torx of the right size, which > > probably means a decent set of torxes; every drive I've looked at with > > an eye to mechanical disassembly has been held together with torxes. > > > > For that matter, I'm in a similar situation: I have a Maxtor which > > reports itself as having 0 heads, 0 sectors/track, and 0 cylinders; if > > I had an identical drive, I'd try swapping boards, but I don't. > > > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Mar 11 01:38:36 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:38:36 -0500 Subject: I Found a Mouse! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050311023318.039491c0@mail.30below.com> OK, I kept digging, and I finally came across my AtariST/Amiga switchable mouse - so I might have an Amiga soon. (I still didn't find my ratzenfrackenfrippenfrumble eprom burner w/builtin eraser - so I'm considering buying a separate eraser just to have a spare.) With all this talk of "Operating Systems you're not supposed to run on your computer" lately, this just begs the question: I *thought* there were versions of OS-9 that existed for the AtariST and/or the Amiga - as in OS-9/68K. Anybody know anything about a possible Amiga version? I'd be kind of interested in running that, just because I'm not supposed to... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 02:04:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:04:24 -0500 Subject: OS-68K (was Re: I Found a Mouse!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050311023318.039491c0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050311023318.039491c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:38:36 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > With all this talk of "Operating Systems you're not supposed to run on your > computer" lately, this just begs the question: I *thought* there were > versions of OS-9 that existed for the AtariST and/or the Amiga - as in > OS-9/68K. Anybody know anything about a possible Amiga version? I'd be kind > of interested in running that, just because I'm not supposed to... ;-) I would be less surprised to hear there was an OS-68K implementation for Atari hardware than Amiga hardware. The only OSes I know of for the Amiga are AmigaDOS (duh), Amix (SysV), Minix, *BSD, and Linux. I happen to have genuine purchased copies of Minix, and long ago, I did download sources for, IIRC, NetBSD but never installed them (there's support there for more types of devices for my GG2 Bus+ board than under AmigaDOS, scarily enough). Feel free to prove me wrong, though. I've always had a vague interest in OS-68K, if for no other reason than the fact that it should be a fairly hardware-indifferent platform for the MC680x0 family, coupled with the fact that it is not UNIXlike. I have occasonally wondered, though, what kind of apps are out there for OS-68K, and what storage devices, file systems, etc., are supported. Oh... just remembered... I _do_ own an OS-68K device, but I'm not sure if it's on or off topic... a Ramp Networks Web Ramp... I was poking around on the maintenance console and discovered that it's running OS-68K on a 68330 chip. FWIW. -ethan From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 11 02:15:44 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:15:44 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tried Ethan's arrangement. Also works as far as passing self-tests, although I'm still having issues trying to get a terminal to work on any of the DHV11's TXA ports. Any pointers on this? (the terminal does work on OPA0). Specifically, I get this error message (same for TXA0 through TXA7): $ SET TERMINAL TXA0:/PERMANENT/INTERACTIVE/DEVICE_TYPE=vt100 %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying TXA0: -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout Any pointers? However, it does now show two additional devices, HXA0: and HXA1:. According to everything I can figure, these are two large Centronics-type connectors hanging off of the "mystery card" which turned out to be a DRQ3. Anyone know what this is for? The description in the field guide isn't exactly verbose. This machine also had a DRV11 in it when I got it, but no cabkit. It [the DRV11] is no longer in the system. Thanks again for everyone's patient assistance with this machine. John > Alternately, you could arrange the bus this way (and I _would_) > > A--B--C--D > [ -- CPU --] > [ -- MEM --] > [TQK50][empty] > [-- DHV11 --] > [-- mystery card --] > [RQDX3][empty] > > The grant chain goes down through the TQ50, across the DHV11, across > the mystery DMA card, then down to the RQDX3. > > You could also put the M9047 grant card in the AB side of slot 6 and > the RQDX3 in the CD side of slot 6, in case you wanted to leave room > for a dual-height option later. > > -ethan > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 11 02:52:39 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 08:52:39 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? Message-ID: <0503110852.AA03024@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Pin 2 on a 34 pin floppy connector is a little used pin. It was used to > change the RPM on some 5.25" 1.2mb drives. > > It changed the RPM from 360 RPM (pin 2 high) to 300 RPM (pin 2 low). This > was supposed to make it easier to read/write DD disks in a HD drive. > > Only early AT controllers needed it, later controllers kept this pin high > and used an odd transfer rate. Hmm, my understanding is that pin 2 is LOW when the odd 300 kbit/s transfer rate is used, and all HD drives use this pin to switch the write current to produce the 300 Oersted field necessary for DD media or the 600 Oersted field necessary for HD media. MS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 02:53:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:53:06 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:15:44 -0700, John Willis wrote: > Tried Ethan's arrangement. Also works as far as passing self-tests... Glad to hear it... but I didn't catch what kind of box this is in... my suggestion is valid for a BA23, but not a BA123. Given that you drew 9 slots, I figured you had a BA23, but feel free to correct me. > although > I'm still having issues trying to get a terminal to work on > any of the DHV11's TXA ports. Any pointers on this? (the terminal > does work on OPA0). Specifically, I get this error message (same for TXA0 > through TXA7): > > $ SET TERMINAL TXA0:/PERMANENT/INTERACTIVE/DEVICE_TYPE=vt100 > %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying TXA0: > -SYSTEM-F-TIMEOUT, device timeout Hmm... if you weren't getting interrupt and DMA grant passed, the machine wouldn't boot because the RQDX3 wouldn't be able to interrupt/make DMA requests (a side benefit of putting it last, I suppose - no boot is an obvious sign problems, whereas a machine that boots, but has problems with a device behind the RQDX3 might be harder for a novice customer to grasp the situation of). It's more likely there's a configuration problem than broken hardware, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible that you have an actual DHV11 problem. I just don't remember seeing device timeouts on serial adapters since most problems will make them not show up at all. I no longer have a copy of your "show device TX" output, but I take it you _have_ tried putting a terminal on TXA0 and pressing return a couple of times? Have you put a terminal on there and tried outputting any text to it (a DCL command procedure or a C program should do the trick)? One can attach serial printers to random ports, if you didn't know that. They aren't just for logins (when they are working, that is). > However, it does now show two > additional devices, HXA0: and HXA1:. According to everything > I can figure, these are two large Centronics-type connectors > hanging off of the "mystery card" which turned out to be a > DRQ3. Anyone know what this is for? The description in the field > guide isn't exactly verbose. I do not recognize either the HX designator or the DRQ3, but it sounds like some kind of DMA-based parallel interface. Perhaps you could try running the system with that out? I doubt there's an interrupt conflict, but testing with the simplest machine possible is a good technique to use to keep the number of variables down. > This machine also had a DRV11 in it when I got it, but no cabkit. > It [the DRV11] is no longer in the system. Right... that _is_ parallel I/O... not typically used for printers, but can be used to interface to odd external logic, or some such. -ethan From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 11 05:46:45 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:46:45 -0700 Subject: Quasijarus Media: can anyone here write TK50s? In-Reply-To: <0503110912.AA03075@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: Any takers? I will pre-pay for shipping and media if anyone on the list can help me out with writing it with 4.3BSD Quasijarus0c. Thanks in advance, John Willis ---------- From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 09:12:14 GMT To: willisjo at zianet.com Subject: Re: Quasijarus Media John Willis wrote: > We had previously discussed my interest in getting some install media for > Quasijarus. I finally have my MicroVAX II running with a working TK50 drive. > Are you still offering the media kits for a fee? I would be if I had my TK50 writing setup working... It isn't at the moment :-( I really want to start providing real tapes like UC Berkeley did, but I'm so swamped that I cannot tell when, if ever, will I get myself set up to be able to do it. Until then you should ask on ClassicCmp if anyone can write you a tape from the images on my FTP site. I'm sure there are plenty of people there with the necessary setup who'll do it for you. When you post your request to the list, feel free to mention that you've asked me and that I lack the necessary hardware setup at the moment. MS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 06:09:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:09:17 +0000 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 21:26 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What > do you think of it? It's pretty slick for the time, although I suppose all the nicer features have been copied now within modern OSes. The integration between desktop and command-line shell is nicely done. I picked up a dual 133MHz Bebox a while back which I took over to Bletchley, but I just haven't had time to play around with it much since. Far as I'm aware, there are quite a few free apps and utils out there for the OS. I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm at the museum and see which version of the OS it is that ours runs. I know the standard web browser on our one barfs at just about anything and badly needs an upgrade (although I think you can put Firefox on there) Overall, nice classic OS (running on nice classic hardware in this case - even if it doesn't quite fall within the ten year rule :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 06:13:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:13:44 +0000 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> Message-ID: <1110543224.6178.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 20:25 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > * "Rotron Filtercoat". Sticky aerosol goo you spray onto aluminum > mesh filters to trap dust. My lab is really dusty. The rack has a > nice airbox at the bottom with noisy fan. Any suggestions as to a > replacement for this long-lost product or workalike? Hmm, possibly spray-mount / photo-mount, or maybe spray-on automotive carpet glue (latter will be much thicker). I've got a feeling that they'll remain tacky, so might do the job. Isn't about 60% of dust made up from dead skin cells? Yum. :-) cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 06:26:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:26:38 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <000f01c525d8$46b2be10$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <1110486793.4432.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <002801c525c0$a5156b00$933cd7d1@randylaptop> <1110495301.4432.72.camel@weka.localdomain> <000f01c525d8$46b2be10$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <1110543998.6194.28.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 17:18 -0800, Steven Canning wrote: > Jules, > > I proposed doing exactly that (i.e. passing "raw" floppy data through a > parallel port) last year along with some simple math that showed it could be > done. Yep, I hadn't forgotten :-) (I made sure I kept all the relevant messages too) Wasn't the problem that the parallel port just doesn't have the raw speed for it to work for all disks though? At which point buffering becomes necessary, which was also the point that everyone went quiet on the subject :-) With the cable you mention, how are you supposed to get the created disk image back onto a disk again? (Personally I need to be able to restore data from an image back to a floppy) I need to do some reading up on what the floppy drive's write gate signal does. If spitting data from an image down the 'write' signal wire at the same speed as it was read is good enough (and 'write gate' is actually a 'R/-W' signal) then maybe it isn't too complex. However if write gate is actually dependant on the data stream too (needing it to be understood) then it could be rather tricky. Note that personally I *don't* need to understand the image on the host machine (at this stage) - all I care about is backing up floppies to modern hard disk and being able to recreate them again. Understanding via software decoding might be nice one day, but in the shorter term my concern's with all the thousands of disks we have at the museum with data on that are likely decaying... cheers Jules From kurt at k-huhn.com Fri Mar 11 06:44:57 2005 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:44:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> <42310C70.8070802@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <58983.198.180.131.22.1110545097.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> On Thu, March 10, 2005 23:13, Zane H. Healy said: > I'd never have thought to compare BeOS to OPENSTEP, but in some ways > I can see that comparison. Though OPENSTEP has a serious > relationship with Unix, BeOS simply attempts to be POSIX compatible. > It has a totally none Unix filesystem (IIRC, it's a database), but > like OPENSTEP, it has it's own GUI rather than using X-Windows. > I'll admit that it's an odd comaprison. In the greater OS world, wher you have "Windows, Linux, Unix, BSD, and Other", I think that OpenStep and BeOS fall under "other". They're very different from each other, but the feel is similar - if you know what I mean.... Or not. It's tough to explain. How about "comfortably kooky". :) -- Kurt Huhn "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!" kurt at k-huhn.com -- Patches O'Houlihan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 11 07:47:03 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:47:03 -0700 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4231A157.5040400@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 21:26 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > >> I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What >>do you think of it? > > > It's pretty slick for the time, although I suppose all the nicer > features have been copied now within modern OSes. The integration > between desktop and command-line shell is nicely done. > > I picked up a dual 133MHz Bebox a while back which I took over to > Bletchley, but I just haven't had time to play around with it much > since. > > Far as I'm aware, there are quite a few free apps and utils out there > for the OS. I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm at the museum and see > which version of the OS it is that ours runs. I know the standard web > browser on our one barfs at just about anything and badly needs an > upgrade (although I think you can put Firefox on there) > > Overall, nice classic OS (running on nice classic hardware in this case > - even if it doesn't quite fall within the ten year rule :) Amen. Any system with *four* MIDI ports ain't your nephew's PC. ;) I have several commercial multimedia apps written for BeOS PPC. They came with the box, and I haven't done much with them past "ooh, Shiney!", but they seem to be pretty tightly desinged. As far as I can tell/remember, commercial application support wasn't wide, but tended to be toward the high-end, especially in multimedia. Doc From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Fri Mar 11 07:47:18 2005 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:47:18 +0000 Subject: Quasijarus Media: can anyone here write TK50s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503111347.18871.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> I have two TK50 drives attached to a VAX 4000/90 running OpenVMS, although I could attach a TK50 to a Linux/SCSI setup. Is this any use? Oh, and I live in the UK. How many tapes does the software occupy, and what format do they need to be written in? Regards, Mark On Friday 11 March 2005 11:46 am, John Willis wrote: > Any takers? I will pre-pay for shipping and media if anyone on the list > can help me out with writing it with 4.3BSD Quasijarus0c. > > Thanks in advance, > John Willis > > ---------- > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 09:12:14 GMT > To: willisjo at zianet.com > Subject: Re: Quasijarus Media > > John Willis wrote: > > We had previously discussed my interest in getting some install media for > > Quasijarus. I finally have my MicroVAX II running with a working TK50 > > drive. Are you still offering the media kits for a fee? > > I would be if I had my TK50 writing setup working... It isn't at the > moment :-( > > I really want to start providing real tapes like UC Berkeley did, but I'm > so swamped that I cannot tell when, if ever, will I get myself set up to > be able to do it. Until then you should ask on ClassicCmp if anyone can > write you a tape from the images on my FTP site. I'm sure there are plenty > of people there with the necessary setup who'll do it for you. When you > post your request to the list, feel free to mention that you've asked me > and that I lack the necessary hardware setup at the moment. > > MS -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd Filetravel (8154) Ltd From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 11 08:02:38 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:02:38 -0500 Subject: Quasijarus Media: can anyone here write TK50s? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:46:45 MST." Message-ID: <200503111402.j2BE2cEj015277@mwave.heeltoe.com> John Willis wrote: >Any takers? I will pre-pay for shipping and media if anyone on the list >can help me out with writing it with 4.3BSD Quasijarus0c. I can write 9-tracks and TK70's but not 50's, sorry. I have some 4000 peripherals but no cpu at the moment. (I never intended to actually *use* the 4000, but it's starting to look like something fun to play with :-) I bought some old tk70 media on ebay (used). Is it possible to get new media for tk50 or tk70's? -brad From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Mar 11 08:11:33 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:11:33 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments TM990/101 M (and its Mystery Chassis) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050311084130.02301e70@mail.degnanco.net> I have noticed a few recent posts about older TI systems including a question about locating a trainer/dev (?) system described a '76 byte magazine. This got me thinking about a TI chassis I have been unable to locate documentation. Can anyone help shed some light on the following. .? The closest thing I could find on the Internet was (an earlier model's users guide), but nothing about the card chassis that holds it. http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/ti/tm990-100/TM990-100M_usersGuide.pdf The card chassis: Within a Steel 4-slot Texas Instruments card chassis the size of a shoe box are four Texas Instruments cards manufactured in the US. These cards resemble a regular s-100 card but the 100 contacts are off center, to the left when viewing the component side with the 100 pin side down. Printed on the chassis is Assy No. is 0994676-0001 and Diag No. 0394677. I do not have a power supply, but I assume you'd attach to terminals on the back of the chassis somehow (?). Inside are 4 cards. Two cards are similar are RAM/EPROM cards with 32K in each (8 x 4 rows I assume = 32K ?). The RAM is a mix of TMS 4045-30NL, TMS 4045-30, and TMS 4014NL. There are no Eproms installed, but there are two rows of empty slots on the card. Each card has 8 dip switches. The third card is labeled TM990/101 M. This appears to be a processor/modem/term card with a TMS 9900JL EP7840 ceramic/gold processor, and a TMS 9901NL chip, etc. The card has two 25 pin female connectors apparently for serial i/o. The fourth card is labeled "universal prototype board TM990/512". This card may be newer than the rest and has an Intel P8253 chip (date = '80). There is extensive wiring on the back of the card, it could be for a disk drive, I don't know. The card has 2 40 pin flat connectors. I am hoping someone can point me in the direction for a TM990/101 M Users Guide or documentation about the chassis and/or individual components. I can post pictures by request. -Bill From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Mar 11 08:22:34 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:22:34 -0500 Subject: To be a kid again... Edusystem 50? Message-ID: <26aa41826a84bf.26a84bf26aa418@direcway.com> I was feeling nostalgic recently and would like to figure out some way of recreating my introduction to computing in 7th grade (an ASR-33 with acoustic coupler, timeshared to a PDP-8 at the nearest university 60 mi. away, running Edusystem 50). The good old days... when a large hard drive was 256Kw and functional programs could be run in 8K of core! I have a TTY basket case which is "very restorable" :) but don't have the time or space to keep a real PDP-8 up and running. Is there a decent program I can run on a PC? Or should I invest in an SBC6120? A front panel with blinkenlights would be neat but not essential to the TTY "experience". thanks Charles From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 11 08:26:37 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:26:37 -0500 Subject: To be a kid again... Edusystem 50? Message-ID: <36abac636ab6fc.36ab6fc36abac6@optonline.net> > I was feeling nostalgic recently and would like to figure out some > way of recreating my introduction to computing in 7th grade (an > ASR-33 with acoustic coupler, timeshared to a PDP-8 at the nearest > university 60 mi. away, running Edusystem 50). The good old > days... when a large hard drive was 256Kw and functional programs > could be run in 8K of core! SAME here...except the PDP was in the building, and we were running full TSS/8 [1972] > I have a TTY basket case which is "very restorable" :) but don't > have the time or space to keep a real PDP-8 up and running. Is > there a decent program I can run on a PC? Or should I invest in an > SBC6120? A front panel with blinkenlights would be neat but not > essential to the TTY "experience". > I have an SBC6120 and a PDP-8 up an running. If you cant get (or in your case dont have room) I strongly recommend theSBC6120 over an emulator. Even though I have both, A lot of the "switch banging" I do on the SBC....hey if a paddle breaks, they are easier to repair! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 09:14:36 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:14:36 -0500 Subject: Name that cap... Message-ID: Hi all, I'd like to get a 5 1/4 inch floppy working on my Ohio Scientific C1P-MF. Since I only have one OSI 5 1/4 inch drive available, on my C4P-MF, I want to get another working. OSI relied on the drive unit to provide data separation, relatively easy to find on 8 inchers but seems to be pretty tough to find on a 5 1/4. There is an old article describing how to build a suitable data separator circuit available on a couple of sites on the web. Seems pretty simple, just uses two chips a couple of resistors and a cap. The problem is, I can't read the cap value. The best image I can find is here: http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/images/SA400Disk1.jpg You want to look at "Figure #3". I've used several different image processing programs, but I can't get the scribble next to the cap legible. I've looked at the data sheet for the chip, but I don't know enough for an obvious value to jump out at me. Part of the accompanying text says: "The RC time constant is adjusted to give an output pulse width on pin#1 of the 74LS121 of 5.5 ls." I assume "ls" is an oddball abbreviation for microsecond? Alternatively, does anybody have an MPI B51 or B52 with data separator available for trade, or another design for a data separator? Thanks, Bill From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 11 09:35:56 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:35:56 +0000 Subject: Name that cap... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4231BADC.8020107@gjcp.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/images/SA400Disk1.jpg > > You want to look at "Figure #3". I've used several different image > processing > programs, but I can't get the scribble next to the cap legible. I've looked > at the data sheet for the chip, but I don't know enough for an obvious value > to jump out at me. Part of the accompanying text says: "The RC time > constant > is adjusted to give an output pulse width on pin#1 of the 74LS121 of 5.5 > ls." > I assume "ls" is an oddball abbreviation for microsecond? Well - the spec for the LS121 is pretty well-known. Someone with more caffeine and inclination than I might well look up the datasheet and work out what the value ought to be. It looks like it says "270" overscribbled with "220" to me - what units I don't know. Try 220nF. If that doesn't work, try 220pF. You'll be in the ballpark with one of those. Then, y'see, the phrase is "select on test". Gordon. From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Wed Mar 9 00:59:36 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:59:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI-990 recollections In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050309065936.84868.qmail@web31006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Pardon me while I step back into my past a bit. I really enjoyed working with the 990, and want to share some of my experiences with anyone else that enjoyed the 990 as well. > I'm in contact with two gents who worked on TI-990's back in > the 80's. Since this platform doesn't get a lot of traffic on > the list, I thought I'd share their recollections of working > on these systems. > > ======== Gentleman N > > [ Referring to the pictures/links posted a few days ago of a > [ TI-990 in L.A. ... > > The disk drives for this computer is actually a pair of drives in one > enclosure. One removable and the other "fixed" internally. They both > have the same capacity (5MB I think). You're dead on. If memory serves (and more and more, it doesn't :-) the drive was the CDC "Hawk" drive -- five up, and five down. The bottom platter was fixed; the top was removable. > The funky terminal is just that. It's a great monochrome terminal with > addressable cursor and it is fast for its day when compared to > VT52/VT100s. Yeah baby! The 911/VDT. It was pretty sweet. I believe the cable from the tube to the system was coax for the video, plus a few lines for the kbd. The tubes were fast to display information. And a really lovely green color. I remember that DX-10 had a really nice user interface, and the commands were quite mnemonic. You could even write your own little shell scripts and they would integrate nicely with the existing system utilities. I always thought (and still do) that it was a well engineered system. > The OS seemed decent from what little I used it but I never did any > programming with it. In 1986 I helped out Bryan with an old client in > Honolulu who had a rack mounted version with three DS10's where two of > the unit (four drives) had failed with head crashes (don't move packs > between drives after those funny scrapping sounds begin). The service > guy had the system already repaired and I helped get the their > accounting system going again. I went back 1987-89 and wrote a new > version running on i386/AT&T Unix System V Release 3 so they could have > more modern hardware. > > It was a nice system...but not an IBM 1401 (or CDC 8090)! My brother and I did similar things with his system. We were writing accounting packages in Ryan-McFarland ("RM") Cobol. It was really a lot of fun, and I was writing an average of one good-sized file maintenance application per day. I believe it really was a pretty productive system for its time. It even had a decent keyed file capability (one primary key, multiple secondary keys) that we really exploited in our work. We wrote systems for several companies in Seattle. One of them was a company that manufactured blue jeans -- they were quite a cast of characters. At one time, the company name was "Bearbottoms", then it was "James Jean", and then something else. The guy that owned the company made money hand over fist -- it was said that he paid something like $2.00 to get a pair of jeans sewn in Mexico, which then sold at the Bon or Nordstroms for something like $30.00. > ======== > > ======== Gentleman A > > Wow, that's a (nice) blast from the past. And to help connect the dots, > I am a friend of Bill's who handed over a customer with one of these for > Bill to provide software support. > > I had a 2 person company (sales guy and me) that developed business > applications for a chain of radio stations, and we needed a system that > we could resell 1) quickly; 2) with no cash upfront; 3) that was > reasonably powerful for a multi-user terminal based application. > > This was around 1980, and we talked to all the usual suspects, DEC, Data > General, HP, maybe Wang... It's been a while. Anyway the TI folks > basically sold us a machine and delivered it, no cash down, 120 days to > pay, lots of support, etc. I had the thing in my living room of my > bachelor-pad apartment for a few months of development and testing, then > we delivered it to the client. > > The application was in Fortran (is that correct Bill?), but I remember > writing a few little assembler tools and twiddling a few bits here and > there. Once we delivered it to the customer my access was somewhat > limited to bug-fix and enhancements during evenings and weekends, so I > didn't get to play with it as much as I would have liked. > > The coolest thing I remember from the OS was a near real-time display > of in-memory processes. Sort of a graphical version of 'top' mapped > onto physical addresses. I know *exactly* what command you are talking about. That would be the "Show Memory Map" command, and it *was* a heck of a lot of fun to watch. You could really get a feel for exactly what the machine was doing, when it was rolling jobs in and out of memory. You'd see big chunks of the screen change (from bright green (reverse video) to darker green, IIRC) as the system rolled jobs between disk and memory. I remember one of the companies we worked with, IALC, had a 990/12, and they bought a 911 VDT to do nothing but sit in the glass computer room and run SMM all day long :-) I'm currently talking with someone about getting a 990/10 of my own. Don't know if it will happen (the system is pretty far away), but I am excited at the possibility of getting my hands on one of these systems again. Well, that's enough for now. Thanks for letting me relive some old memories. John Sambrook __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From mmarshall at mmarshall.com Wed Mar 9 07:47:01 2005 From: mmarshall at mmarshall.com (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 06:47:01 -0700 Subject: Panasonic HHC Basic on ePay References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050308152956.00b10160@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050308192717.0530df00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <422EFE55.9040107@mmarshall.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Good news: the EPROMs I have are from straight from HHCs and are built > into the carrier. Just plug and go. ;-) I just happen to have a metric > buttload of 'em as well! > > Better news: I was hoping not to pay $75 for buy-it-now, so I just put > the $50 bid on it hoping no-one else would bid. The guy ended the > auction early, so it's mine! $55 shipped, and already paid for. ;-) I'll kick in. too, for one or two Basic EPROMs. I can send my own EPROMs and carriers (the insurance software on them does not interest me). Let me know how much $, where to send and how to send. Thanks, Martin From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Wed Mar 9 14:33:58 2005 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:33:58 -0500 Subject: Three books added to collection Message-ID: <380-22005339203358289@buckeye-express.com> --- Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Any chance of these getting into bitsavers? > /wai-sun I hope not. Don is alive and still selling his books. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From korpela at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:16:13 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:16:13 -0800 Subject: ST-238R and ST-225, likely controller? In-Reply-To: <42309C34.9090909@oldskool.org> References: <20050310181758.GC25901@dbz.icequake.net> <42309C34.9090909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > > A friend has a ST-238R and ST-225 that came out of his XT long ago. > > We're trying to figure out what the most likely controller that was > > being used in the original machine so we can recover the data. It must > > have been 8-bit and support RLL. The best guess I can come up with is > > the WD 27X (which I used to have). Anyone else have a good guess? > > An ST-255 is MFM and probably used an WD1002* controller (although any MFM > controller should work). It's a 20MB drive; check web for the cyl/hd/sec count. ST-225. The 255 is a 40MB drive. Despite the price difference between the 225 and the 238R they were pretty much identical drives (since a 225R == 238). I've never found a late model 225 that wouldn't work with an RLL controller. I won't claim they all will, but I'd guess any manufactured after the 238R hit the lines are really a 238R rebranded as a 225. As far as controllers go when I was first shopping for an 8-bit RLL adapter, the Adaptec cards were significantly less expensive than the Seagate cards. Unfortunately, I think the cards are incompatible in their encoding, so you can't expect an Adaptec formated disk to be readable with the Seagate card. These disks were also very suseptible to head creep over time. I'd be surprised if they don't need a low level format. You might be able to reformat (somewhat) non-destructively with an old copy of Norton Utilities or SpinRite. Eric From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Thu Mar 10 21:19:35 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:19:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: DX-10 bits ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050311031935.73315.qmail@web31004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I have been searching the web for the past week, looking for an online copy of the bits for a version (any version) of the TI 990 "DX-10" operating system. Anyone know where I might be able to find them? I'm aware of MESS (mess.org), which has a 990 simulator. It looks like a significant piece of work, but they only create (software-based) hardware emulators. Without the bits to a version of DX-10, running a virtual 990 is not quite the experience I had hoped for .... I'm also aware of http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html, and I've been able to download and run TXDS. It's cool, but again, it's not really anywhere near what it would be like to really (ok, virtually-really :-) run DX-10 again. They aren't at bitsavers.org either. Some great manuals (score!) but not the software itself. Any leads or ideas as to how I might get in touch with these bits again would be appreciated. I'm open to the idea of helping to finance or otherwise help in ensuring that these bits aren't lost forever. Best, John Sambrook __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Mar 10 21:54:54 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <200503110354.WAA4781060@shell.TheWorld.com> >> The Monitor you're using was Sysgen'd to load those drivers >> automatically. You could probably free up a little memory by doing a >> Sysgen that just includes the drivers you need. >Ok, makes sense. I suppose I have to find an original system master to >make my own sysgen. Though the boot disk I'm using now suits me fine for >my current purposes. Problem is that it is wrong. The monitor, at boot time, will fill in its tables for devices it finds (up to 40 devices). Except for the system device, which is loaded so that it can't be unloaded, these handlers are considered 'installed' if the I/O page addresses indicated as required in the handler exist. This does not mean that the handlers have been loaded. Handlers are not automatically loaded by RT-11. They can, however, be loaded using the startup command file. They can also be .FETCHed by properly written programs. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Mar 10 21:59:59 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:59:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions Message-ID: <200503110359.WAA4706541@shell.TheWorld.com> >> Once done, the SET command values are held in the >> DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to >> do the SET commands each time. Probably not >> recommended in any case. >Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then? Makes >sense. I'll try it when I get home. SET commands only operate on, and change, in on-disk copy of the handler file. If you are booted from a given device and you issue SET commands for that device handler, they won't take affect until you reboot.. Same thing for issuing SET commands for device handlers which are LOADed. But at least for them you can UNLOAD and LOAD them. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Mar 10 22:08:58 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:08:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200503110408.XAA4736196@shell.TheWorld.com> >That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put it >in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks >off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename >STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly. By the way, the reason the drives are set up correctly is because the SET commands have actually altered the on-disk copy of the handler. That mapping will stay in effect, across boots, until you change it. As an experiment, try issuing a SET command for a device when the system disk is write-locked. You'll get an error when it tries to write out the updated portions of the specified device handler to the system device. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Mar 10 22:06:29 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:06:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200503110406.XAA4787283@shell.TheWorld.com> >> I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy >> at the moment). >> SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0 >> SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 >> SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2 >> SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0 >That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put it >in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks >off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename >STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly. What you need to understand is that RT-11 has a maximum volume size of 65536 blocks. Therefore, for volumes which are larger than this (typically only the DU drives, like RD53 and RD54, or SCSI or DSSI which act like MSCP devices), the drive is logically partitioned into units of 32mb each... The UNIT= argument specifies the physical drive for this controller (with a sysgen of DU, you can have support for multiple controllers, so there is a DU SET argument PORT= as well). The PART= argument is the partition number on that unit (partitions are numbered beginning at 0). So, UNIT=0, PART=0 references the first 65536 blocks on physical unit 0. UNIT=0, PART=1 references the next 65536 blocks on unit 0 (if the volume is not large enough for another 65536, the last partition is truncated). UNIT=1, PART=0 references the first 65536 block partition on physical unit 1. and so on... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Mar 11 10:21:16 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:21:16 -0800 Subject: Name that cap... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050311082028.060184f0@mail.zipcon.net> http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/industry/appnotes/Natsemi/AN-505.pdf here's a national semiconductor PDF on data separators for one of their disk controller chips, this may give you some ideas :) From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Mar 11 01:51:23 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:51:23 GMT Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1110504341.4413.91.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > But yep, agreed. I certainly need *something* that can archive / restore > classic formats to/from modern(-ish!) media. Shift register + counter + high speed RAM. Could even do it with an FPGA if you wanted. Buffering an entire track with 8x oversampling is going to be hellishly memory intensive though. > 3) aren't taking any backups at all! :-) Aaghh! That reminds me - it's a good year since I backed up the HDD on my machine... [fx: hard drive starts going kaclunk-kaclunk-kaboooom] Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- From kurt at k-huhn.com Fri Mar 11 10:16:24 2005 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:16:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <4231A157.5040400@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <4231A157.5040400@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <17165.198.180.131.22.1110557784.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> On Fri, March 11, 2005 8:47, Doc Shipley said: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Amen. Any system with *four* MIDI ports ain't your nephew's PC. ;) > Don't forget the D/A convertors and the 5v and 12v output from the GeekPort. That 5V availability means I don't have to find something else to power PIC projects. While I haven't found a use for the D/A pins, I'm sure I can come up with something. :) -- Kurt Huhn "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!" kurt at k-huhn.com -- Patches O'Houlihan From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 10:21:12 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:21:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Name that cap... Message-ID: <20050311162112.27732.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >is adjusted to give an output pulse width on pin#1 of the 74LS121 > of 5.5 ls." I assume "ls" is an oddball abbreviation for microsecond? The l comes from the misinterpretation of the 'micro' symbol, a long tailed u. Anyhow 5.5us is correct and going from the resistor values and T=CR for the 74121 gives a value of 275pF. 270pF will do but with the range of adjustment in the circuit anything from 100pF to 500pF should work. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From willisjo at zianet.com Fri Mar 11 10:38:51 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:38:51 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050311163851.37093.qmail@halo.zianet.com> My MicroVAX II chassis looks like this (4U rackmount): +---------------------------+ || RD54 | TK50 | CTRL PNL | +---------------------------+ <-front +---------------------------+ | PSU | CONS| PORTS | <- QBus slots behind CONS/PORTS +---------------------------+ <-back Is that a BA23? (Apologies for the ASCII drawing) John Ethan Dicks writes: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 01:15:44 -0700, John Willis wrote: >> Tried Ethan's arrangement. Also works as far as passing self-tests... > > Glad to hear it... but I didn't catch what kind of box this is in... > my suggestion is > valid for a BA23, but not a BA123. Given that you drew 9 slots, I figured you > had a BA23, but feel free to correct me. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Mar 11 10:36:41 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:36:41 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF33E@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Actually, I know someone with the capabilities of doing this, but I don't know if he has the time. Let me ping him and see what he thinks. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:26 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 19:49 -0500, Barry Watzman wrote: > What we need so badly is a USB universal floppy disk controller. Personally I'd rather have parallel or serial or SCSI interfaces, but each to their own :-) But yep, agreed. I certainly need *something* that can archive / restore classic formats to/from modern(-ish!) media. > Can't anyone design one? It's way over my head Over mine too really. I'd be able to build one given a schematic, but probably couldn't design something from scratch. Actually, I'd much prefer a schematic anyway for peace of mind as well as curiousity value. Given the know-how on the list I'm suprised there hasn't been a collective effort in the past to build something. Maybe the majority of us either: 1) only specialise in one machine and so do backups in whatever way's easiest for our own hardware, 2) are lucky enough to be blessed with online archives of software so backups aren't needed 3) aren't taking any backups at all! :-) cheers Jules From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 10:54:12 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:54:12 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Name that cap... Message-ID: <14995482.1110560052745.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> if you are targeting 5.5us, then it is a 220pf cap. The formula for the pulse width for a 121 is 0.7 * R * C, where 220pf is 220 X 10-12 and R is 25000 then the time comes out to 5.5us. I think the "l" was just a mistype. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink Sent: Mar 11, 2005 7:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Name that cap... to jump out at me. Part of the accompanying text says: "The RC time constant is adjusted to give an output pulse width on pin#1 of the 74LS121 of 5.5 ls." I assume "ls" is an oddball abbreviation for microsecond? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 11:16:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:16:20 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 07:51 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <1110504341.4413.91.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > But yep, agreed. I certainly need *something* that can archive / restore > > classic formats to/from modern(-ish!) media. > > Shift register + counter + high speed RAM. Could even do it with an FPGA if > you wanted. > Buffering an entire track with 8x oversampling is going to be hellishly > memory intensive though. Well if worst-case is 1mbps data rate at 300rpm and 8x oversample, isn't that (8 * 10240 * 1024) / 5 = 1677722 bits of memory maximum needed? (div by 5 because 300rpm gives you a whole track in 1/5 of a second) So 256KBytes of RAM should always be enough to buffer a whole track, regardless of what physical drive or media you use. Presumably there's no need to have any kind of microprocessor control; it can all be done with a free-running clock to read from the drive or write to it, and a few control lines to for read/write, start, stop etc. Can static RAM can't cope with these kinds of speeds? Presumably cache chips pulled from old PC motherboards would cope happily, even if old 80's parts wouldn't. It's probably still beyond my abilities to design something that'd work :-) But on the surface it doesn't sound *that* complicated for someone who's used to designing digital circuits. > > 3) aren't taking any backups at all! :-) > > Aaghh! That reminds me - it's a good year since I backed up the HDD on my > machine... [fx: hard drive starts going kaclunk-kaclunk-kaboooom] Oh boy. I rsync data from my desktop to an external hard disk periodically (usually once or twice a week). Hadn't done it for a few weeks, kicked off a run the other day, and the wholse SCSI subsystem fell over. Panic for a moment, thinking my desktop drive had died. Turns out I'd set the SCSI data rate to the external disk higher than normal when I was playing around with something else, and forgotten to set it back again - so it was just a SCSI bus transfer problem, not a hardware issue. Phew. cheers J. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Mar 11 11:37:02 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:37:02 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <20050311163851.37093.qmail@halo.zianet.com> References: <20050311163851.37093.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <20050311183702.291105f6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:38:51 -0700 willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > My MicroVAX II chassis looks like this (4U rackmount): [...] > Is that a BA23? (Apologies for the ASCII drawing) Yes, this sounds like a BA23. But a BA23 is 3U. (AFAIK 1U == 1.75") You should also check the backplane type number. There may be different ones. But I saw only the variant with the three top slots being QQ/CD and the rest QQ/QQ serpentine. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Mar 11 11:45:05 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:45:05 +0100 Subject: Quasijarus Media: can anyone here write TK50s? In-Reply-To: References: <0503110912.AA03075@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050311184505.28996479.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:46:45 -0700 John Willis wrote: > Any takers? I will pre-pay for shipping and media if anyone on the > list can help me out with writing it with 4.3BSD Quasijarus0c. I wrote my Quasijarus tapes my self. I net booted NetBSD and used the maketape utility from 2.11BSD to write them. Worked well. Replace the TQK50 with a TQK70, if you can get one. Best would be to replace the TK50 drive with a TK70 too, but a TK50 works well on the TQK70. The TQK70 has some more buffer bits, avoiding tape splutter. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 11 11:51:30 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 17:51:30 GMT Subject: Quasijarus Media: can anyone here write TK50s? Message-ID: <0503111751.AA03823@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mark Wickens wrote: > How many tapes does the software occupy, 1 > and what format do they need to be written in? Physical tape record level images are on my FTP site, just write them to the tape. Treat it as a foreign tape whose format you don't know or need to know. (The "don't need to know" part refers to those merely *writing* tapes. If you do want to know the format, you are more than welcome to, and it's described in the documentation, specifically in "Installing and Operating 4.3BSD-Quasijarus UNIX on the VAX".) MS From aek at spies.com Fri Mar 11 11:53:31 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:53:31 -0800 Subject: DX-10 bits ... Message-ID: <020ced765f803abb909032437e839d90@spies.com> try http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/990/ From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Mar 11 11:57:20 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:57:20 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <0503110852.AA03024@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <000f01c52663$c56deaa0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:52 AM Subject: Re: Floppy drive pin 2 question? > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > Pin 2 on a 34 pin floppy connector is a little used pin. It was used to > > change the RPM on some 5.25" 1.2mb drives. > > > > It changed the RPM from 360 RPM (pin 2 high) to 300 RPM (pin 2 low). This > > was supposed to make it easier to read/write DD disks in a HD drive. > > > > Only early AT controllers needed it, later controllers kept this pin high > > and used an odd transfer rate. > > Hmm, my understanding is that pin 2 is LOW when the odd 300 kbit/s transfer > rate is used, and all HD drives use this pin to switch the write current > to produce the 300 Oersted field necessary for DD media or the 600 Oersted > field necessary for HD media. > > MS I am 99.99% sure it changes the RPM, I have some TEAC 1.2's laying around I'll plug one in and ground pin 2 to check it. For the TEAC it is enabled via an option jumper, default is to ignore it. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 12:01:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:01:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kermit for the PDP8 (in assembler) Message-ID: <20050311100029.P942@localhost> In case you need one, here it is. Found it at random looking for the RATFOR source to the DG Kermit. http://cdn.mirror.garr.it/mirrors/kermit/extra/k08mit.pal From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 11 12:05:55 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 18:05:55 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem Message-ID: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > [ASCII art drawing of a BA23] > Is that a BA23? Yes. > (Apologies for the ASCII drawing) Why apologize? ASCII art is great! MS From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 11 12:17:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:17:43 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16945.57543.8000.500380@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 07:51 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> ... >> Shift register + counter + high speed RAM. Could even do it with >> an FPGA if you wanted. Buffering an entire track with 8x >> oversampling is going to be hellishly memory intensive though. Jules> Well if worst-case is 1mbps data rate at 300rpm and 8x Jules> oversample, isn't that (8 * 10240 * 1024) / 5 = 1677722 bits Jules> of memory maximum needed? Jules> (div by 5 because 300rpm gives you a whole track in 1/5 of a Jules> second) Jules> So 256KBytes of RAM should always be enough to buffer a whole Jules> track, regardless of what physical drive or media you use. Even if you want 8 bits per sample, that's still only 1.5 MB, and the data rate is 7.5 MB/s (since a track is 200 ms by your calculation). That's a trivial bandwidth requirement; anything better than antique DRAM will do the job easily, and the space requirement is tiny, too. I'm wondering if you can do this job with a microcontroller similar to a PIC, running the sampling loop in software. If not quite, it should be pretty close. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 11 12:24:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:24:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? Message-ID: <200503111824.KAA23531@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 17:18 -0800, Steven Canning wrote: >> Jules, >> >> I proposed doing exactly that (i.e. passing "raw" floppy data through a >> parallel port) last year along with some simple math that showed it could be >> done. > >Yep, I hadn't forgotten :-) (I made sure I kept all the relevant >messages too) > >Wasn't the problem that the parallel port just doesn't have the raw >speed for it to work for all disks though? At which point buffering >becomes necessary, which was also the point that everyone went quiet on >the subject :-) > >With the cable you mention, how are you supposed to get the created disk >image back onto a disk again? (Personally I need to be able to restore >data from an image back to a floppy) > >I need to do some reading up on what the floppy drive's write gate >signal does. If spitting data from an image down the 'write' signal wire >at the same speed as it was read is good enough (and 'write gate' is >actually a 'R/-W' signal) then maybe it isn't too complex. However if >write gate is actually dependant on the data stream too (needing it to >be understood) then it could be rather tricky. Hi There are two write signals. One is write data and the other is the write gate. The write gate is like a write enable. It also turns on the erase signal the cleans the edges of the track that is being erased and over written. The drive has nothing to set the timing of the signals coming to it. You can not just directly use the recorded data without realigning the clock edges. This includes the possibility of write compensation as well. There are rules about when you use the compensation. It helps to understand a little about digital recording. The write signal just makes a bunch of static +- signal levels on the disk. When played back, the head only sees the transitions and not the levels. This means that the effective edge of the transition is what is important. When the signals are on the surface of the disk, they are a bunch of magnetic fields. They interact in such a way that there is an averaging or frequency loss if too many transitions are close together. Compensation helps to avoid this. It is best to put some compensation in both the receive an transmit ends. It is simpler is to just use it in the transmit ( or write ) circuit. This is what is done for writing higher density floppies. If you record all the info played back, you need to realign the timing and possibly add compensation. It is not an impossible task but does require some knowledge of the particular technology used for that floppy format. You also don't need to know what the data is, just what the rules are for placing levels on the disk. It is even conceivable that one can do a better job than the original controller did. One can do some test signals on that particular media and determine just how much compensation works best on each track! Like the 6 million dollar man, "we can rebuild you better than before". Dwight > >Note that personally I *don't* need to understand the image on the host >machine (at this stage) - all I care about is backing up floppies to >modern hard disk and being able to recreate them again. Understanding >via software decoding might be nice one day, but in the shorter term my >concern's with all the thousands of disks we have at the museum with >data on that are likely decaying... > >cheers > >Jules > > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 11 12:25:15 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 05 18:25:15 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? Message-ID: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I am 99.99% sure it changes the RPM, I have some TEAC 1.2's laying around > I'll plug one in and ground pin 2 to check it. > > For the TEAC it is enabled via an option jumper, default is to ignore it. Changing the RPM is an option on SOME drives, and for PeeCees to work it must be OFF. It is very useful for Classic Computers, though. The high density select signal (pin 2) may or may not switch RPM, but it always switches the write current. Writing on HD media with DD write current will produce no effect (the field is too weak to affect the media), while writing on DD media with HD write current will magnetise the media so strongly that it'll be impossible to rewrite and unusable until you bulk-erase it. So pin 2 MUST always select the correct write current for the media type. 3.5" drives use the media type hole instead to select the correct write current. Those who punch or cover that hole to magically "change" the media type get what they deserve. MS From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Mar 11 12:44:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:44:09 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> From: "Michael Sokolov" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:25 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > I am 99.99% sure it changes the RPM, I have some TEAC 1.2's laying around > > I'll plug one in and ground pin 2 to check it. > > > > For the TEAC it is enabled via an option jumper, default is to ignore it. > > Changing the RPM is an option on SOME drives, and for PeeCees to work it > must be OFF. It is very useful for Classic Computers, though. > > The high density select signal (pin 2) may or may not switch RPM, but it > always switches the write current. Writing on HD media with DD write current > will produce no effect (the field is too weak to affect the media), while > writing on DD media with HD write current will magnetise the media so > strongly that it'll be impossible to rewrite and unusable until you > bulk-erase it. So pin 2 MUST always select the correct write current for > the media type. > > 3.5" drives use the media type hole instead to select the correct write > current. Those who punch or cover that hole to magically "change" the > media type get what they deserve. > > MS No, I have refered to the TEAC site and to WDC: WDC referes to pin 2 as speed select, their controller can be used with either single speed or dual speed 1.2mb drives: http://www.wdc.com/en/library/legacy/controllerboards/1006mm1.pdf TEAC specifically stated that pin 2 is default to ignore, the I strap is used to enable speed change: http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/5fd0050a.pdf Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 12:48:45 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:48:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050311104156.U942@localhost> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Loboyko Steve wrote: > Actually, it's possible to build a reader fairly > easily. [...] [...] > The real problem in a paper tape "ecosystem" is in the > punches, "handling equipment" and the tape itself; I > got lucky and got a lot of Mylar cheap some time ago, > as well as some real DEC fanfold and reel tape. Mylar > tape is now fabulously expensive at retail. I concur with all you wrote. There are a lot of 1970's era tape reader mechanisms around, and they're really easy to interface to. I made one from a Plessey read head (they're common) and a PIC, basically it steps until it sees the sprocket hole, then outputs the byte. (Sprocket hole is smaller, therefore you get good overlap). Punches are indeed the harder part. I've got a DSI in decent shape, nice serial interface for general use, but punch mechanisms are harder to find, esp. ones easily interfaced. THere seems to be 10 times the number of readers as punches (makes perfect sense in context of what paper tape was must used fo rin the computer world). > Paper tape is a PITA and fun at the same time. I like > to point out to friends that the data on the > metallized Mylar tape will be readable (even > visually!) and usable long, long after their hard > disks are very deep down in landfills! Yup! Even the non-oiled paper will last 500 years if it's kept dry. It indeed suffers in the data-density department but it's fun to work with on a non-production basis! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 11 12:50:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:50:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503111850.KAA23540@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: > > Jules> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 07:51 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> ... > >> Shift register + counter + high speed RAM. Could even do it with > >> an FPGA if you wanted. Buffering an entire track with 8x > >> oversampling is going to be hellishly memory intensive though. > > Jules> Well if worst-case is 1mbps data rate at 300rpm and 8x > Jules> oversample, isn't that (8 * 10240 * 1024) / 5 = 1677722 bits > Jules> of memory maximum needed? > > Jules> (div by 5 because 300rpm gives you a whole track in 1/5 of a > Jules> second) > > Jules> So 256KBytes of RAM should always be enough to buffer a whole > Jules> track, regardless of what physical drive or media you use. > >Even if you want 8 bits per sample, that's still only 1.5 MB, and the >data rate is 7.5 MB/s (since a track is 200 ms by your calculation). > >That's a trivial bandwidth requirement; anything better than antique >DRAM will do the job easily, and the space requirement is tiny, too. > >I'm wondering if you can do this job with a microcontroller similar to >a PIC, running the sampling loop in software. If not quite, it should >be pretty close. > > paul > Hi I've always been looking at using a DSP chip for this job. I did expect to read parts of a track at a time and then reassemble them as condensed data. Chips like the Analog Devices 2181 have some 80Kbytes of onboard RAM. Although, it can't all be used for storage at the same time and some is needed for program space. These chips can be implemented with a real minimum of outside circuits. they even have a serial SPI that can be used to read disk data at higher speeds. These processor run at 30 MIPs plus. They can run some operations, such as data moving to arrays in single cycles, including updating of pointers. They can do as many as 5 operations in a single cycle. The can bootstrap from simple slowspeed EPROM of FLASH. One could easily connect one of these to that USB chip that someone pointer to earlier. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 12:56:12 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: ot? Simulate something.... In-Reply-To: <42313D58.8070007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <207924cf65757a37598913b6c0bf49f0@sbcglobal.net> <20050307172917.L635@localhost> <422D2A57.6050409@jetnet.ab.ca> <16944.60375.84894.922830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42313D58.8070007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050311105209.I942@localhost> > Paul Koning wrote: >> Sure they do, or did. An IBM 1620 had 5 digit addresses, with your >> choice of 20k, 40k, or 60k (where k == 1000 of course) digits of core >> memory. On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, woodelf wrote: > I was thinking 'solid state' memory ... Sigh! If you really need decimally-addressed memory, and the decimal address has a binary-weighted presentation, simply apply the decimal address to the "binary" address lines. It will work perfectly. There will be unused memory cells, but who cares? 0000 0 0001 1 0010 2 0011 3 0100 4 0101 5 0110 6 0111 7 1000 8 1001 9 1010 unused 1011 unused 1100 unused 1101 unused 1110 unused 1111 unused From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Mar 11 12:47:24 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:47:24 +0000 Subject: OS-68K (was Re: I Found a Mouse!) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:04:24 EST." Message-ID: <200503111847.SAA05062@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ethan Dicks said: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 02:38:36 -0500, Roger Merchberger > wrote: > > With all this talk of "Operating Systems you're not supposed to run on your > > computer" lately, this just begs the question: I *thought* there were > > versions of OS-9 that existed for the AtariST and/or the Amiga - as in > > OS-9/68K. Anybody know anything about a possible Amiga version? I'd be kind > > of interested in running that, just because I'm not supposed to... ;-) > > I would be less surprised to hear there was an OS-68K implementation for Atari > hardware than Amiga hardware. There was an Atari version of OS9/68K, I was at one time trying to get a copy, but the vendor (Microware??) wanted more money for it than a new Atari cost so I didn't pursue it very far. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 13:14:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:14:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050311105815.R942@localhost> > > willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > >> [ASCII art drawing of a BA23] >> Is that a BA23? > > Yes. > >> (Apologies for the ASCII drawing) On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Why apologize? ASCII art is great! And as universally accepted as anything ever made. This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs ASCII, for .+n[u,i]x? I can imagine, keys pressed for turtle graphics (pen down/up, north/south/east/west drag the pen, etc) drawing rectangles. Shortcut commands for common drawing problems (a "spreadsheet-like" table labelled with columns A - Z and rows 1 - 10, that sort of thing). Never saw such a thing, and I've actively looked. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 11 13:23:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:23:59 -0700 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050311105815.R942@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> Message-ID: <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to > documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone > know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs > ASCII, for > .+n[u,i]x? I think it's called "figs" or "fig". Doc From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Mar 11 13:17:06 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:17:06 -0500 (est) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050311105815.R942@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 11, 05 11:14:33 am Message-ID: <200503111917.OAA25848@wordstock.com> And thusly Tom Jennings spake: > > > > This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to > documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone > know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs > ASCII, for > .+n[u,i]x? > I remember using a drawing/animation program that would output ANSI, but I can't remember the name of it. I believe it was shareware or freeware. Cheers, Bryan Pope From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 13:31:22 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:31:22 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <20050311104156.U942@localhost> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> Message-ID: <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > > Punches are indeed the harder part. I've got a DSI in decent > shape, nice serial interface for general use, but punch mechanisms > are harder to find, esp. ones easily interfaced. THere seems to be > 10 times the number of readers as punches (makes perfect sense in > context of what paper tape was must used fo rin the computer > world). Well I could buy a used serial punch for about $800 to $1000 us but they are not for a song like many people have picked up 8's with a tty or high speed punch. The lack of a punch has kept me from doing a PDP/8 in a CPLD as well as not knowing of where to get ferromagnetic? ram. I want real non-voiltile memory. > Yup! Even the non-oiled paper will last 500 years if it's kept > dry. It indeed suffers in the data-density department but it's fun > to work with on a non-production basis! Keeping dry is the hard part unless you got a water tight storage for tape. Accidents with water like a broken water line, flood or heavry rain just wait to happen. Ben alias woodelf From trestivo at tarinc.com Fri Mar 11 13:43:13 2005 From: trestivo at tarinc.com (thom restivo) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:43:13 -0500 Subject: selling off my entire lot Message-ID: <000001c52672$907919f0$6501a8c0@music> To all, I have taken a position with a new company and will be closing down my warehouse. Any one interested in my entire inventory or at least the board inventory (4000 + DEC and VAX) please let me know. I am in Melbourne, FL and all are welcome to come visit, or call me at 321-768-0006. THANK YOU ALL for your past support. Regards, Thom From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 11 13:55:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:55:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ben wrote: > as well as not knowing of where to get > ferromagnetic? ram. I want real non-voiltile memory. Ramtron ferroelectric RAM (nonvolatile) is available from Newark Electronics. The traditional problem with FRAM is that it had limited read endurance, as well as limited write endurance. Just reading the part would wear it out. The newest 3V parts have fixed that. The FM18L08 is a 32K*8 3V 70ns part with unlimited endurance. IIRC, the last time I bought some from Newark I paid under $10 each. There is a newer 128K*8 55ns part, the FM20L08. Newark doesn't have it yet. All American Direct gives a price of $25.59, but it is not clear whether they actually have parts in stock. If you want to use these in a 5V system, it's probably a good idea to use some 74LVC buffers that can function as level translators. There are also some 128K*8 nonvolatile parts from Simtek, e.g., STK14CA8 and STK16CA8. They are not ferroelectric, but instead combine SRAM and flash on one part, with automatic transfers between the two at powerup and powerdown. Since they use SRAM, they are much faster than the Ramtek parts. They also respond to a series of writes to magic addresses to allow software controlled transfers, in a manner similar to the Dallas Semiconductor battery-backed RAM with RTC. Although the probability of accidental activation of that feature is miniscule, I still don't much like it. Eric From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 11 14:01:50 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:01:50 -0500 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:14:33 PST.) <20050311105815.R942@localhost> References: <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200503112001.j2BK1ocQ022999@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to > documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone know > of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs ASCII, > for .+n[u,i]x? On the theory that ANSI draw programs used to be in vogue in the late 80s/early 90s BBS era, and that ASCII art is still used on old systems, I'm going to answer this as on topic. :-) A number of possibilities come to mind: 1. Run something like the TheDraw (old DOS program) under dosbox or similar emulator. 2. Have a look at EDASCII (X app in Tk), cadubi (console app in perl), Linux ASCII Draw, etc. Try googling for "ansi draw program" (no quotes). 3. Try emacs picture drawing mode. De From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Mar 11 14:12:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:12:37 -0500 Subject: Sunshine T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050311151237.00a3c290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Is anyone here familar with this programmer? It's about the size and layout of an old Kaypro portable computer. This is Sunshine Co. of Calfornia and not the Sunshine Co. of Taiwan that made a lot of the cheap PC based EPROM programmers. Brief description here .. Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 11 14:38:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:39 -0500 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16946.463.943000.525307@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> ... as well as not woodelf> knowing of where to get ferromagnetic? ram. I want real woodelf> non-voiltile memory. Try www.ramtron.com. Ferroelectric, by the way. Nice stuff, you can pretend it's fairly slow SRAM but the bits stay when the power goes off. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 14:50:44 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:50:44 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >Ramtron ferroelectric RAM (nonvolatile) is available from Newark >Electronics. The traditional problem with FRAM is that it had limited >read endurance, as well as limited write endurance. Just reading the >part would wear it out. The newest 3V parts have fixed that. > >The FM18L08 is a 32K*8 3V 70ns part with unlimited endurance. IIRC, >the last time I bought some from Newark I paid under $10 each. > > > But is that DIP packaging? I got the data sheet but interfacing to 5v logic and power up is where I have lack of knowlage. I still think a generic FRAM board needs to be made with 3V parts to replace CORE memory in older machines but I have no idea how to interface 3V logic with 5 volt logic NOT using CMOS parts. >There is a newer 128K*8 55ns part, the FM20L08. Newark doesn't have >it yet. All American Direct gives a price of $25.59, but it is not >clear whether they actually have parts in stock. > > > I still am dealing with classic small machines ... 2 FM18L08's replace a whole rack of core memory for a PDP/8. @ 2 cents a bit that is $8K for 8 banks of 4K word memory or $500 1980? $ for 4K. >If you want to use these in a 5V system, it's probably a good idea >to use some 74LVC buffers that can function as level translators. > > > SMT I think. >Eric > > Looking at orginal PDP / 8 ( 1965) prices $800 for a paper tape punch/reader today is a great deal. $15,000 would buy you a home back then. Ben From ICS at Core.com Fri Mar 11 15:00:30 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:00:30 -0500 Subject: selling off my entire lot References: <000001c52672$907919f0$6501a8c0@music> Message-ID: <001e01c5267d$5ce24f70$262fc4d8@icsdevelopment> Do you have any Data General Items? > To all, I have taken a position with a new company and will be closing > down my warehouse. Any one interested in my entire inventory or at least > the board inventory (4000 + DEC and VAX) please let me know. I am in > Melbourne, FL and all are welcome to come visit, or call me at > 321-768-0006. THANK YOU ALL for your past support. > > Regards, > Thom > From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 15:28:51 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:28:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050311104919.V942@localhost> > We use Kimwipes where I work. (General Dynamics AIS) I have those too, I was thinking specifically about swabs for hard-disk heads. Currently I wrap kimwipes around a popsicle stick (aka craft sticks, very useful things to have in a lab!). I should have been more specific; this is for Diablo-type removable 14" cartridge type drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 11 15:29:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:29:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > The FM18L08 is a 32K*8 3V 70ns part with unlimited endurance. IIRC, > the last time I bought some from Newark I paid under $10 each. Ben wrote: > But is that DIP packaging? No, SOIC. They used to make DIPs but they are phasing them out. There may still be some in the distribution channel, but don't count on future availability. If all else fails you can solder the SOICs onto carrier boards that will plug into DIP sockets. > I got the data sheet but interfacing to 5v logic and power > up is where I have lack of knowlage. I still think a generic FRAM > board needs to be made with 3V parts to replace CORE memory in older > machines but I have no idea how to interface 3V logic with 5 volt logic > NOT using CMOS parts. What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? I wrote: > If you want to use these in a 5V system, it's probably a good idea > to use some 74LVC buffers that can function as level translators. Ben wrote: > SMT I think. Available in DIP. 74LVC runs on 3V but has 5V tolerant inputs, so it can be used to interface 3V CMOS to 5V TTL in both directions. When powered by 3V, 74LVC outputs will not go above 3V, so they can't drive pure 5V CMOS inputs. However, many 5V VLSI CMOS parts will work with TTL-level inputs (min 2.0V Vih), so 3V 74LVC can drive those just fine. In general, if you want to build things with state-of-the-art chips, you're going to have to deal with SMT, whether you want to or not. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 15:44:27 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:44:27 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >In general, if you want to build things with state-of-the-art chips, >you're going to have to deal with SMT, whether you want to or not. > > > I would rather not. SMT is something my craftmanship can't handle. Mostly I still would like to say with 5 volt logic and DIP/PLCC packaging because they are still easy to get prototypes PCB's made for them. I am not quite ready to try the 'toaster oven' just yet. >Eric > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 11 15:38:53 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:38:53 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: Floppy drive pin 2 question?" (Mar 11, 12:44) References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> Message-ID: <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 11 2005, 12:44, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Michael Sokolov" > > Changing the RPM is an option on SOME drives, and for PeeCees to work it > > must be OFF. It is very useful for Classic Computers, though. > > > > The high density select signal (pin 2) may or may not switch RPM, but it > > always switches the write current. > No, I have refered to the TEAC site and to WDC: > > WDC referes to pin 2 as speed select, their controller can be used with > either single speed or dual speed 1.2mb drives: > http://www.wdc.com/en/library/legacy/controllerboards/1006mm1.pdf Michael is correct, the exact function varies from drive to drive, and it always involves changing the write current. Some drives have several jumpers to affect this. I could show you several from my collection like that. Some controllers work at two speeds, some at two data rates. Some of the WD controllers can be configured either way. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 11 16:01:17 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, woodelf wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > >> In general, if you want to build things with state-of-the-art chips, >> you're going to have to deal with SMT, whether you want to or not. >> >> > I would rather not. SMT is something my craftmanship can't handle. Mostly I > still > would like to say with 5 volt logic and DIP/PLCC packaging because they are > still > easy to get prototypes PCB's made for them. I am not quite ready to try the > 'toaster > oven' just yet. > >> Eric >> > > Regular .050" lead pitch SMT parts are very easy to hand solder. Certainly not a lot harder than DIPs. Heck I've done .8 mm ball pitch BGAs (CSP) with nothing more than flux and a Grainger hot air gun... Peter Wallace From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Mar 11 16:10:53 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:10:53 GMT Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1110561380.6178.63.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Well if worst-case is 1mbps data rate at 300rpm and 8x oversample, isn't > that (8 * 10240 * 1024) / 5 = 1677722 bits of memory maximum needed? > > (div by 5 because 300rpm gives you a whole track in 1/5 of a second) And therein lies the error in my calculations. I came up with 1MByte per track... > Presumably there's no need to have any kind of microprocessor control; > it can all be done with a free-running clock to read from the drive or > write to it, and a few control lines to for read/write, start, stop etc. Why not stuff it all in a CPLD? Maybe create a logic-only version too... > Can static RAM can't cope with these kinds of speeds? Presumably cache > chips pulled from old PC motherboards would cope happily, even if old > 80's parts wouldn't. 70nS SRAM should work fine, and most SRAM is pretty cheap too. I've got a 512kbit here that cost about ?4 and is rated to 70nS IIRC. > > Aaghh! That reminds me - it's a good year since I backed up the HDD on my > > machine... [fx: hard drive starts going kaclunk-kaclunk-kaboooom] > > Oh boy. I rsync data from my desktop to an external hard disk > periodically (usually once or twice a week). Hadn't done it for a few > weeks, kicked off a run the other day, and the wholse SCSI subsystem > fell over. I really should look into buying an external USB hard drive casing and a server-rated IDE/ATA hard drive (probably a Maxtor MaXLine II or a Seagate Barracuda) > Panic for a moment, thinking my desktop drive had died. Turns out I'd > set the SCSI data rate to the external disk higher than normal when I > was playing around with something else, and forgotten to set it back > again - so it was just a SCSI bus transfer problem, not a hardware > issue. Phew. You're using SCSI in a desktop system? Heh. I should probably see about trying that sometime. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... DOS means never having to live hand-to-mouse From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 11 16:19:04 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:19:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: selling off my entire lot In-Reply-To: <001e01c5267d$5ce24f70$262fc4d8@icsdevelopment> from "George Wiegand" at Mar 11, 2005 04:00:30 PM Message-ID: <20050311221904.C2A7A73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great George Wiegand once stated: > > Do you have any Data General Items? It looks like, due to space and time, I may have to start shedding some of the equipment I have. To that end, I do have a Data General 1---an 8088 based laptop (with the best keyboard I've ever used on a laptop)with 484k RAM and two 3.5" floppy drives, the carrying case and the hardware manual. I would prefer local pickup (South Florida) but if you (or anyone really) are (is) interested ... -spc (Came out in 1984, non-backlit LCD screen, working condition) From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 11 16:27:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:27:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 Message-ID: I'm trying to find a Motorola chip marked S38FC012PIO2. I've checked around and can't find anything online. Does anyone recognize this chip? I need to find one to replace a chip I have on an interface card here in the hopes that replacing the chip will fix it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 11 16:53:40 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:53:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47926.64.139.41.130.1110581620.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Sellam wrote: > I'm trying to find a Motorola chip marked S38FC012PIO2. I've checked > around and can't find anything online. Are you sure it doesn't being with SC? That's Motorola/Freescale's prefix for custom chips (vs. MC for standard, XC for unqualified standard, DSP, etc.). I've never seen a Motorola part with only an S for the alphabetic prefix. Some SC parts are customized versions of standard products (though with more changes than just ROM code), but most are fully custom. None are generally available except possibly from the Motorola/Freescale customer for whom they were custom made. Eric From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 11 17:07:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:07:56 -0500 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... References: <20050311104919.V942@localhost> Message-ID: <16946.9420.218000.602895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: >> We use Kimwipes where I work. (General Dynamics AIS) Tom> I have those too, I was thinking specifically about swabs for Tom> hard-disk heads. Currently I wrap kimwipes around a popsicle Tom> stick (aka craft sticks, very useful things to have in a lab!). That's how it was done. I don't remember any swabs; when heads needed cleaning the FE's would wrap a Kimwipe (tm, presumably) around a stick just as you described. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 11 17:12:25 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:12:25 -0500 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16946.9689.562000.709500@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> I would rather not. SMT is something my craftmanship can't woodelf> handle. Mostly I still would like to say with 5 volt logic woodelf> and DIP/PLCC packaging because they are still easy to get woodelf> prototypes PCB's made for them. I am not quite ready to try woodelf> the 'toaster oven' just yet. You might want to give it a try. With the exception of BGA, which is for specialists only, SMT parts can be handled perfectly well in the workshop with nothing more than a good soldering iron, thin solder, a bright light, and a magnifying glass. You might want to look for some back issues of QST (or perhaps QEX); there have been some good articles about SMT for amateurs in there. Included were examples of people who made boards for SOIC parts with a Dremel tool, or an Xacto knife. I personally prefer a CAD program and a board shop, but for small pin counts I'll admit the other is workable. Yes, if you want to use 240 lead PLCC parts, you'd better farm out the PCB fabrication to a good board shop, but all the rest you can do yourself. It's hard to imagine a PCB shop that can't make boards for those applications... paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 17:26:44 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:26:44 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >If all else fails you can solder the SOICs onto carrier boards that >will plug into DIP sockets. > > > This is most likely what I will do. What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap I forgot to add , I like things socketed. >Available in DIP. 74LVC runs on 3V but has 5V tolerant inputs, so it >can be used to interface 3V CMOS to 5V TTL in both directions. >When powered by 3V, 74LVC outputs will not go above 3V, so they can't >drive pure 5V CMOS inputs. However, many 5V VLSI CMOS parts will work >with TTL-level inputs (min 2.0V Vih), so 3V 74LVC can drive those >just fine. > > > Now what about driving leds? >In general, if you want to build things with state-of-the-art chips, >you're going to have to deal with SMT, whether you want to or not. > > > Straight 8's look better and better all the time. :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 16:55:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:55:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installingXP In-Reply-To: <001d01c525e5$8bcf3c00$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Mar 10, 5 09:53:45 pm Message-ID: > You can learn boatloads writing a new OS for a classic machine. Many > early mini's had very little software available. Even less of it is > 'usable' in > a practical sense. > > What if anything is wrong with developing new software for older systems? Absolutely nothing IMHO. And _writing_ an OS is a great project that I must try sometime, I know I'll leran a lot. My moan was really directed against running ready-written OSes on machines when then are/were more interesting choices. This particualrly applies to trying to run unix on just about any 16 bit (or larger) machine, even when things like POS were available (note for DECheads, POS is not P/OS.... POS is the original PERQ Operating System). And running CP/M on every Z80 box, again when there were other choices (LDOS, for example). Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against unix-like OSes. I have nothing against CP/M. But that doesn't mean I want to run them on everything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 17:07:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:07:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Name that cap... In-Reply-To: <4231BADC.8020107@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 11, 5 03:35:56 pm Message-ID: > Well - the spec for the LS121 is pretty well-known. Someone with more IIRC, the pulse width is something like 0.7*R*C > caffeine and inclination than I might well look up the datasheet and > work out what the value ought to be. It looks like it says "270" > overscribbled with "220" to me - what units I don't know. Try 220nF. > If that doesn't work, try 220pF. You'll be in the ballpark with one of > those. Assuming R is within the recomended range for the IC, you are not going to get a 5.5us pulse (which sounds about right) with a 270nF cap. 270pF could well be right. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 11 17:39:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:39:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <10503102318.ZM29658@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10503102318.ZM29658@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1216.192.168.0.3.1110584398.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > No. It's only the RQDX1 that has the "must be last on the bus" > problem, and only then if what's below it uses DMA and interrupts. > RQDX2 and RQDX3 have no such limitation. You won't find an RQDX1 in a > MicroVAX II because it is not compatible with the MicroVAX II > processor. I know of the incompatibility but I'm surprised at the RQDX3 not having the limitation - every single microPDP and qbus uVAX I used, installed or watched Failed Circus maintain had to have the disk controller last on the bus; the only exception to this was if you had the RQDXE extender for external drives. Even the machines I've got here now are built like that. > of any offhand that won't work in a Q22-CD slot but that doesn't mean > there aren't any). The MicroVAX II Micronotes actually show such a > configuration, with a processor, single memory card, a DEQNA, an RQDX2, > and a DHV11 (with the DHV11 last, as usual). The only definition I've seen is that Q22/CD boards are the 'S-handle' types for the BA4xx (and some BA2xx) and non-CD boards need to either have jumpers removed (KDA50 springs to mind) or etches cut. cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 11 17:40:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? Ben wrote: > I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap If your static situation is that bad, you'd better not use any RAM, EPROM, or Flash chips made in the last 15 years. They're all CMOS. > I forgot to add , I like things socketed. I like things reliable. Soldered is more reliable than socketed. If you *must* use sockets, use high quality machined-pin sockets. I wrote: > Available in DIP. 74LVC runs on 3V but has 5V tolerant inputs, so it > can be used to interface 3V CMOS to 5V TTL in both directions. Ben wrote: > Now what about driving leds? Why do you need your RAM to drive LEDs? Anyhow, 74LVC should drive LEDs just fine. > Straight 8's look better and better all the time. :) I'd love to get one. Closest I have is an 8/I. The only nontrivial electronic computing devices I have which use no ICs are Friden EC130 and EC132 desktop electronic calculators, circa 1964 and 1965, which use lots of transistors, a delay line memory, and a CRT display. Eric From william.layer at comcast.net Fri Mar 11 17:37:04 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:37:04 -0600 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: <1110543224.6178.15.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <1110543224.6178.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050311173704.2bcba989.william.layer@comcast.net> Hellos, Something broke and I wasn't getting the list for several weeks.. so far, it appears that I am 'back'.. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:13:44 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 20:25 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > > * "Rotron Filtercoat". Sticky aerosol goo you spray onto aluminum > > mesh filters to trap dust. My lab is really dusty. The rack has a > > nice airbox at the bottom with noisy fan. Any suggestions as to a > > replacement for this long-lost product or workalike? > > Hmm, possibly spray-mount / photo-mount, or maybe spray-on automotive > carpet glue (latter will be much thicker). I've got a feeling that > they'll remain tacky, so might do the job. You do not want to use a glue or adhesive for this; when time comes to clean & re-oil the filter, you will never get it off.. I'd suggest using one of the aerosol air filter oils, like the stuff produced by K&N or Spectro. These oils are bourne in solvent, and when the solvent evaporates, it leaves behind a sticky oil film that traps dirt. Like most cleanable filters, they filter best when slightly loaded up. The larger pieces of trapped dust help to grab the smaller ones, etc. And when it is time to clean up, you just use something like tri-clor or even kerosense to dissolve the old oil & dirt off of it. Not easy if you had used an adhesive. Hope this helps, -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 11 17:42:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:42:20 -0000 (GMT) Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050310211859.65080.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <1247.192.168.0.3.1110584540.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Ethan scribbleth: > Hope this clears up some of the voodoo of Qbus configuration. It does! Thanks :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 11 17:48:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:48:57 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42322E69.7020906@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >I like things reliable. Soldered is more reliable than socketed. >If you *must* use sockets, use high quality machined-pin sockets. > > > I got them ... well on order. With sockets if I zap a chip I can replace it. >Why do you need your RAM to drive LEDs? Anyhow, 74LVC should drive >LEDs just fine. > > > I never thought of that ... I plan to have the tradional front panel on all my computers I build. >>Straight 8's look better and better all the time. :) >> >> > > > So would we all. :) >I'd love to get one. Closest I have is an 8/I. > > Well anyhow I do plan to use a lot CMOS but not for I/O that is connected to people. I just don't want to solder in chips. But then a PDP 8/ non volitile memory is my next project in a few years. Ben. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 11 17:54:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: <47926.64.139.41.130.1110581620.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Are you sure it doesn't being with SC? That's Motorola/Freescale's > prefix for custom chips (vs. MC for standard, XC for unqualified standard, > DSP, etc.). I've never seen a Motorola part with only an S for the > alphabetic prefix. Positive. But it may well be a custom chip. It's on the Videotrax VCR backup interface card from Alpha Microsystems. I'm not even sure it's going to fix the problems with the card (it's very flaky and basically doesn't work) but it's a stab in the dark. The card is recognized by the software and it can somewhat read data from the tapes, but it doesn't seem to be processing the data properly, or something. I got it to work (kind of) once but the directory I pulled from the tape had numerous errors in it and was basically corrupted. No, it wasn't the tape, because I have a second exact card (same part number on the big Motorola chip) and it works fine. There's a bunch of chips on this board (27) including a Z80, 2764, a bunch of 74-series stuff, and a few customs AM stuff (PALs, masked ROM, etc.) All but the big Motorola chip are soldered in. Anyway, never mind. I doubt I'll find one, and it's even more doubtful it'll fix whatever is wrong with this. I don't have the time or inclination to troubleshoot it (no service manuals). Here's an image of the board: http://www.siconic.com/computers/videotrax.jpg If anyone has one of these, I'll pay $50 for it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 11 18:00:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:00:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking PC UserJun/Jul 95 ($$$) Message-ID: Has anyone got PC User magazine from June or July of 1995? Looking to buy. Please contact me directly if you've got them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 11 18:06:23 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:06:23 -0000 (GMT) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Tom Jennings wrote: > >> This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to >> documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone >> know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs >> ASCII, for >> .+n[u,i]x? > > I think it's called "figs" or "fig". Do you mean DEC PHIGS by any chance? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 11 18:17:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:17:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) Message-ID: <200503120017.QAA23632@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >All but the big Motorola chip are soldered in. > Hi Sellam I know you are not going to put a lot of effort into it but the obvious thing would be to swap the part with the known good unit. This will tell you if it is the chip or something else. Also, have you removed the chip and put some contact enhancer on it?? ( You know, some silicon grease ) Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Mar 11 18:16:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:16:27 -0500 Subject: FS: DEC boards Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050311191627.00b4e2c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Here's a list of some DEC cards that I picked up today. If anyone is interested make an offer via direct E-mail. As noted all of them have the proper cable, connector and mounting plate. A8000 ADV11-C Q 16-channel 12-bit Analogue-to-Digital Converter with cable, connector and mounting panel. A6006 AAV11-C Q 4-channel, 12-bit Digital-to-Analogue Converter with cable, connector and mounting panel. M9404 and M9405YB with connecting cables. M3104 DHV11-A Q 8-line Asynchronous Multiplexor, with DMA with 2 cables, 8 connectors and 2 mounting panels. M8634 IEQ11-A Q DMA version of IEEE(GPIB) interface with 2 cables, 2 GPIB connectors and mounting panel. M4002 KWV11-C Q Programmable Real-Time Clock. M7555 RQDX3 Q MFM Winchester and floppy disk controller (RX50/RX33/RD50-54/RD31/RD32/RD33). M9047 Q Grant continuity (also M9047-SA, -SF) M7606-EF KA630-AA Q As far as I can find out this is a MicroVAX II CPU w/1-Mbyte, floating point, time of year clock, boot/diagnostic ROM, Q22 with cables and control panel. M7609-AP MS630-CA Q As far as I can find out these are 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) (2 cards and interconnecting cable). Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 18:22:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:22:42 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1110586962.6194.110.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 22:10 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Presumably there's no need to have any kind of microprocessor control; > > it can all be done with a free-running clock to read from the drive or > > write to it, and a few control lines to for read/write, start, stop etc. > > Why not stuff it all in a CPLD? Maybe create a logic-only version too... Well personally I prefer logic-only because I know I'll have the parts here, plus I don't have any sort of programmer for making more exotic things (ok, so I do have an ancient PAL/EPROM programmer, but without manuals I've only ever figured out the EPROM side of it :) But also I think that keeping it simple (and understandable) should be a goal to enable it to buildable by anyone with a few electronics skills. If it means it encourages more people to build it and back up classic media, it's got to be a good thing :-) > > Can static RAM can't cope with these kinds of speeds? Presumably cache > > chips pulled from old PC motherboards would cope happily, even if old > > 80's parts wouldn't. > > 70nS SRAM should work fine, and most SRAM is pretty cheap too. I've got a > 512kbit here that cost about ?4 and is rated to 70nS IIRC. OK so four of those would be enough. That's not *too* costly I suppose, although it probably makes it enough for people to think twice about it. I still like the idea of SRAM from old PC motherboards; didn't they normally have 64 or even 128KBytes? Free then; with other parts costs it'd probably make the whole thing do-able for a fiver or so (more with a few frills like a case, PSU etc.) > You're using SCSI in a desktop system? Heh. I should probably see about > trying that sometime. Yeah, I bailed on IDE for PC systems about 8 or so years ago and have only ever used SCSI since. It's nice having the DVD drive, CDROM, DAT etc. up on the desk and the rest of the machine tucked away underneath. Handy for imaging old Unix workstation drives too, reading old QIC24 tapes (as per last week when I slogged through heaps of them) etc. cheers Jules From dlormand at aztecfreenet.org Fri Mar 11 18:29:08 2005 From: dlormand at aztecfreenet.org (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:29:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Catweasel opinions, sources of info etc. Message-ID: <200503120029.j2C0T85T004602@aztec2.aztecfreenet.org> >If I format a floppy in my ST and save files to it, I can read it in my PC >without too many problems - however, files copied to the floppy from the PC >would quite often not read right in the ST. I don't know if it was >timing/interleave issues, or if there were bytes in the FAT which the ST >considered optional that the PC required (or vice versa)... The general advice is to format in the peecee. That's what I've always done, and never had any troubles. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 11 18:34:17 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:34:17 -0700 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> Witchy wrote: >>Tom Jennings wrote: >> >> >>>This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to >>>documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone >>>know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs >>>ASCII, for >>>.+n[u,i]x? >> >> I think it's called "figs" or "fig". > > > Do you mean DEC PHIGS by any chance? No, but I had the name wrong. It's "figlet". :) Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 11 18:33:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:33:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 11, 5 03:40:07 pm Message-ID: > > I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap > > If your static situation is that bad, you'd better not use any I prefer just to keep the cat off my workbench, and not stroke him when I'm working on anything electronic (even bipolar stuff _can_ be damaged by static). > RAM, EPROM, or Flash chips made in the last 15 years. They're all > CMOS. > > > I forgot to add , I like things socketed. > > I like things reliable. Soldered is more reliable than socketed. > If you *must* use sockets, use high quality machined-pin sockets. For prototyping / experimatal work I always use sockets if I can. It makes debugging a lot easier (you can pull the chip and force pins to particular levels). I only ever use what we called 'turned pin' sockets (and I guess are the same as 'machined pin' ones, and I don't think I've ever had a bad contact on one. I've had plenty of problems with cheaper sockets, though... My time may not be worth much, but it's worth enough not to want to deal with that sort of problem... > > Straight 8's look better and better all the time. :) > > I'd love to get one. Closest I have is an 8/I. I only have an 8/e. > > The only nontrivial electronic computing devices I have which use > no ICs are Friden EC130 and EC132 desktop electronic calculators, circa > 1964 and 1965, which use lots of transistors, a delay line memory, and a > CRT display. The only no-IC machine I have is a Casio AL1000 calculator, from around 1967 -- IIRC it was sold under the Commodore name as well. It's all discrete transsitors and diodes, core memory, and a row of nixie tubes for the display. Somebody is going to say 'don't you have an HP9100'. Yes, I have a pair of 9100Bs, but they have 8 ICs in them. 8 op-amps on the magnetic card reader PCB (read amplifer and comparator for the 3 data tracks and the timing track). The logic, of course, is all discrete transistors and diodes, with a core read/write memory, core-on-a-rope microcode and that inductively coupled PCB main firmware ROM. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 11 19:05:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: <200503120017.QAA23632@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I know you are not going to put a lot of effort into > it but the obvious thing would be to swap the part > with the known good unit. This will tell you if it > is the chip or something else. To be honest, I haven't even thought of that. But then I don't want to go messing with the working card because I'm putting it into production for a couple months in a couple weeks and I need it to stay working. > Also, have you removed the chip and put some contact > enhancer on it?? ( You know, some silicon grease ) I'll try that. It can't really hurt at this point. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jismay at unixboxen.net Fri Mar 11 19:26:19 2005 From: jismay at unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:26:19 -0800 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <200503111917.OAA25848@wordstock.com> References: <200503111917.OAA25848@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4232453B.8050002@unixboxen.net> Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly Tom Jennings spake: > > >> >>This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to >>documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone >>know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs >>ASCII, for >>.+n[u,i]x? >> >> >> > >I remember using a drawing/animation program that would output ANSI, >but I can't remember the name of it. I believe it was shareware or >freeware. > >Cheers, > >Bryan Pope > > > The program you're probably thinking of is AFAIK DOS only called TheDraw you can find a copy at http://www.syaross.org/thedraw/ J Brian Ismay jismay at unixboxen.net From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 11 19:28:23 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:28:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts Message-ID: <20050312012823.12666.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > The lack of a punch has kept me from doing a PDP/8 in a > CPLD as well as not knowing of where to get ferromagnetic? > ram. I want real non-voiltile memory. Go to http://www.ramtron.com they do the ferromagnetic RAM. A year ago they were offering free samples and may still be doing so. FRAM is very similar to core in that a read is destructive and you have to do a write after read but this is all done transparently by the device. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 11 19:33:34 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:33:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> <52412.64.139.41.130.1110584407.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050311172716.K682@localhost> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: >> What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? > > Ben wrote: >> I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap > > If your static situation is that bad, you'd better not use any > RAM, EPROM, or Flash chips made in the last 15 years. They're all > CMOS. CMOS isn't *THAT* sensitive; easy, benign, reasonable precautions are more than adequate. Ben, the days of early MOS/CMOS hypersensitivity to static are long gone. Even 1970's 4000 series had input-protection diodes. When I sit down to work on stuff I just make sure to touch chassis first, or other ground, then tools and board and parts in order, it's not a big deal, and I haven't static-harmed a part in 20 years, if I ever did ever. Vintage MOS memories are another story. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 11 19:40:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:40:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nice article on floppy drives Message-ID: http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/pdfs/floppy.pdf -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 11 20:07:52 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:07:52 -0800 Subject: Nice article on floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503111807.52052.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 11 March 2005 17:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/pdfs/floppy.pdf Good article, Sellam. Thanks! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Mar 11 20:52:04 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:52:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312025204.8483.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Also, have you removed the chip and put some > contact > enhancer on it?? ( You know, some silicon grease ) > Dwight I imagine that some DeOxit or similar would be good, but silicon grease? I thought that was for *thermal* conductivity only. --Bill From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Mar 11 21:13:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:13:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <42322934.1040506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? > I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap > I forgot to add , I like things socketed. I have a bunch of 3M antistatic mats available - you need to ground yourself. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From James at jdfogg.com Fri Mar 11 21:39:02 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:39:02 -0500 Subject: selling off my entire lot Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D6D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > To all, I have taken a position with a new company and will > be closing down my warehouse. Any one interested in my entire > inventory or at least the board inventory (4000 + DEC and > VAX) please let me know. I am in Melbourne, FL and all are > welcome to come visit, or call me at 321-768-0006. THANK YOU > ALL for your past support. Do you have any kind of a list? Do you have any complete systems you are parting with? I'm particularly interested in Data General systems. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Mar 11 13:08:19 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:08:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Mar 10, 2005 08:13:19 PM Message-ID: <200503111908.j2BJ8J7Y008626@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> > >I ran one of the last developer releases a little on my PowerMac >8500/180, and it was quite impressive. Latter I used BeOS 4.5 >briefly on my old dual 400Mhz Celeron, and it was awesome! The >downside is development ground to a halt. There has been some modern >activity, and there is even work being done on an Open Source version. I still run BeOSR5 (last one) on my PC (multi-boot system with XP, FreeBSD, and BeOS). From what I've seen, there's still a lot of open source development going on for it in the form of drivers and software. I was finally able to get my Nvidia TI4600 card up much to my delight. As for the open source version, there's actually a bunch of them: Open BeOS - http://open-beos.sourceforge.net/news.php FreeOS (Now Called Mockup, a BeOS/Linux mixture) - http://www.mockup.org/faqs/whats/ Athos - http://www.atheos.cx/ Athos is peculiar in that everyone except the author calls it a BeOS clone. ;) There's also a new commercial version called Zeta developed by YellowTab (former European distributor of BeOS), based on directly on BeOS. According to one site it's based Dano/EXP's codeline (which was supposed to be BeOS 6 but was never finished as Be sold its IP to Palm). http://yellowtab.com/products/ Here's a review of an early beta from 3 years ago - http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3692 > >It would have been nice to see it continue, but after Apple bought >NeXT rather than Be, Inc. they sort of started to run out of steam. >I might be typing this on a dual 2Ghz G5 running Mac OS X, but I >can't help but thinking how much better the system would be if it had >been BeOS based, rather than OPENSTEP based. The good thing about >them buying NeXT was getting Steve Jobs back, but BeOS was a far more >efficient OS. And yes, I've run OPENSTEP and BeOS on the same system. > > Zane I have to agree, but then that efficiency could be because BeOS isn't running a kludge verson of FreeBSD/Mac GUI in a MACH environment. ;) >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | Marty From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Mar 11 13:11:19 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:11:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <4231217A.3010009@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 10, 2005 09:41:30 PM Message-ID: <200503111911.j2BJBKTm017074@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> > On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years >ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. What was your reasoning? > Doc Marty From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Mar 11 13:12:55 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:12:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <015001c525fe$6b8f4700$ea781941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 11, 2005 12:51:50 AM Message-ID: <200503111912.j2BJCupN024686@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >From: "Teo Zenios" >Was there much software released for it? > http://www.bebits.com/ That doesn't include the commerical software. Marty From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Mar 11 13:22:41 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:22:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 10, 2005 09:26:52 PM Message-ID: <200503111922.j2BJMg5R003906@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> > I picked up a Cd and manuals for BeOS today. Anybody here use it? What >do you think of it? > > Joe > When you install it, be sure and get the updates for it at BeBits.com. Likewise, if you have any hardware that's not being recognized, check with OpenBeOS (http://open-beos.sourceforge.net/news.php) for drivers. Since they're trying to make their version fully binary compatible with BeOSR5, their stuff installs in to actual BeOSR5 nicely. As for what I think of it, on the PC environment I have it on nothing compares to stability and speed for multimedia. It also loads pretty quick. Marty From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 14:07:20 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:07:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: DX-10 bits ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050311200720.33462.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Al, I'm genuinely grateful for your help. This is exactly what I was looking for. Best, John Sambrook --- Al Kossow wrote: > try > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/990/ > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 20:18:19 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:18:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Format of ".tap" files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? I'm assuming these files somehow encode block lengths and file marks. I'll try to noodle it out, but would appreciate any tips as well. Best, John Sambrook __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Mar 11 22:22:29 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:22:29 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk Controller In-Reply-To: <200503120405.j2C457WH053856@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503120422.j2C4MRHI019749@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "But yep, agreed. I certainly need *something* that can archive / restore classic formats to/from modern(-ish!) media. Shift register + counter + high speed RAM. Could even do it with an FPGA if you wanted. Buffering an entire track with 8x oversampling is going to be hellishly memory intensive though." I'd really rather see it done with a real FDC chip. While there might be some loss of flexibility in dealing with a few formats, I didn't mean to imply that I was ONLY interested in reading. With the right software, I could open an "explorer" window on an XP machine and "drag-and-drop" files .... to an 8" CP/M diskette. Or write a "system track". [As long as this is only a wish-list, why not stretch]. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 22:23:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:23:46 -0500 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: <16946.9420.218000.602895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050311104919.V942@localhost> <16946.9420.218000.602895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050311232346.3acb2308.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:07:56 -0500 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > >> We use Kimwipes where I work. (General Dynamics AIS) > Tom> I have those too, I was thinking specifically about swabs for > Tom> hard-disk heads. Currently I wrap kimwipes around a popsicle > Tom> stick (aka craft sticks, very useful things to have in a lab!). > > That's how it was done. I don't remember any swabs; when heads needed > cleaning the FE's would wrap a Kimwipe (tm, presumably) around a stick > just as you described. > I can remember that in the crude old days in the COM (Computer Output to Microfilm) shop I worked in from 1978-84, operators would do things like tape swatches of Kimwipes tightly over the head of the tape drive, to get hold flaky tapes down tighter against the head. If you've never held a Kimwipe pressed to the tape/head while the drive flitted back and forth get a customer's flaky tape to read, you've not worked in data processing hell. It actually worked. (I worked as an operator in Computer Micrographics, basically as a combination 'tape mounting monkey/film processor who operated the machines that made microfiche from customer data delivered on big reels of tape.' Fascinating operation it was, and hanging around the CEs was what convinced me to enroll in Tech School. One of the brands of camera we had used the PDP8 as the processor. I fondly remember that there was one drive that was special because it would read the 6250 bpi tapes. We also had drives with combo 7/9 track heads) > paul > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 11 22:31:43 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:31:43 -0800 Subject: Format of ".tap" files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:18 PM -0800 3/11/05, John Sambrook wrote: >Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on >www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? > >I'm assuming these files somehow encode block lengths >and file marks. I'll try to noodle it out, but would >appreciate any tips as well. If they're .TAP files, they're most likely in the SIMH tape format. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 22:45:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:45:47 -0500 Subject: Running different OSes on classic hardware (Re: Re installingXP In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c525e5$8bcf3c00$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050311234547.33bd014d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:55:20 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > You can learn boatloads writing a new OS for a classic machine. > > Many early mini's had very little software available. Even less of > > it is 'usable' in > > a practical sense. > > > > What if anything is wrong with developing new software for older > > systems? > > Absolutely nothing IMHO. And _writing_ an OS is a great project that I > > must try sometime, I know I'll leran a lot. > > My moan was really directed against running ready-written OSes on > machines when then are/were more interesting choices. This > particualrly applies to trying to run unix on just about any 16 bit > (or larger) machine, even when things like POS were available (note > for DECheads, POS is not P/OS.... POS is the original PERQ Operating > System). And running CP/M on every Z80 box, again when there were > other choices (LDOS, for example). > > Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against unix-like OSes. I have > nothing against CP/M. But that doesn't mean I want to run them on > everything. > > -tony I would agree, if it were a matter of _just_ running CP/M or UNIX on a particular machine. However, I feel that one can use a variety of OSes on some hardware, and that it's useful to be capable of running all of them. I have two Macintosh SE/30 systems. One has been 'torqued out' with max memory and drive size, and runs NetBSD. The other one is in stock condition and runs a MacOS version contemporary with what it was designed for. A well-known tool like NetBSD can be a highly useful to run on older hardware. You can use it to 'shake out' the hardware and prove it is operating properly before you struggle to get something you're far less familiar with, i.e. the original OS or other weird and cool things, to run. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 23:00:41 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:00:41 -0500 Subject: selling off my entire lot In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D6D@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D6D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:39:02 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > > To all, I have taken a position with a new company and will > > be closing down my warehouse. Any one interested in my entire > > inventory or at least the board inventory (4000 + DEC and > > VAX) please let me know. I am in Melbourne, FL and all are > > welcome to come visit, or call me at 321-768-0006. THANK YOU > > ALL for your past support. > > Do you have any kind of a list? Do you have any complete systems you are > parting with? > > I'm particularly interested in Data General systems. Any vax 9000 boards? vax, 9000 From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 11 16:29:58 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:29:58 +0000 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42321BE6.9030906@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > >> In general, if you want to build things with state-of-the-art chips, >> you're going to have to deal with SMT, whether you want to or not. >> >> >> > I would rather not. SMT is something my craftmanship can't handle. > Mostly I still > would like to say with 5 volt logic and DIP/PLCC packaging because they > are still > easy to get prototypes PCB's made for them. I am not quite ready to try > the 'toaster > oven' just yet. > >> Eric Do it the simple, but inelegant way. 6264 CMOS DRAMs and a couple of AA batteries. Gordon. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 12 00:12:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:12:02 -0700 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <200503111911.j2BJBKTm017074@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200503111911.j2BJBKTm017074@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <42328832.4000605@mdrconsult.com> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >> On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years >>ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. > > > What was your reasoning? Mostly compatibility. I do Unix training and network stuff for a living. Also, BeOS software was still mostly commercial, and I was poor. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Mar 11 16:33:02 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:33:02 +0000 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <200503111917.OAA25848@wordstock.com> References: <200503111917.OAA25848@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <42321C9E.5050205@gjcp.net> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Tom Jennings spake: > >> >> >>This is pushing off-topic even on CCTALK but it does apply to >>documentation etc acceptable to non-GUI machines -- does anyone >>know of a "graphical" (eg. curses) drawing program that outputs >>ASCII, for >>.+n[u,i]x? >> > > > I remember using a drawing/animation program that would output ANSI, > but I can't remember the name of it. I believe it was shareware or > freeware. TheDraw? I remember my mate who ran Darkstar BBS in Aberdeen drawing truly *awful* lurid screens with it. Not his fault, really, he was working on an Amstrad PPC640 with the monochrome LCD. Gordon. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 12 01:56:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:56:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Format of '.tap' files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33099.64.169.63.74.1110614198.squirrel@64.169.63.74> John Sambrook wrote: > Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on > www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? It's John Wilson's tape image file format. A data record consists of a four byte record length, the data, then another copy of the record length. The record length is stored in little-endian byte order. A tape mark is fourbytes of zeros. There are no extra padding bytes to force any alignment. Bob Subnik's SIMH tape image file format is similar except that it uses 16-bit alignment. SIMH comes with utilities to convert the formats. There are also some simple tape image utilities at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 12 01:56:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:56:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Format of '.tap' files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33099.64.169.63.74.1110614198.squirrel@64.169.63.74> John Sambrook wrote: > Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on > www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? It's John Wilson's tape image file format. A data record consists of a four byte record length, the data, then another copy of the record length. The record length is stored in little-endian byte order. A tape mark is fourbytes of zeros. There are no extra padding bytes to force any alignment. Bob Subnik's SIMH tape image file format is similar except that it uses 16-bit alignment. SIMH comes with utilities to convert the formats. There are also some simple tape image utilities at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 12 01:57:44 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:57:44 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <20050312012823.12666.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050312012823.12666.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4232A0F8.2050005@jetnet.ab.ca> lee davison wrote: >>The lack of a punch has kept me from doing a PDP/8 in a >>CPLD as well as not knowing of where to get ferromagnetic? >>ram. I want real non-voiltile memory. >> >> > >Go to http://www.ramtron.com they do the ferromagnetic RAM. >A year ago they were offering free samples and may still be >doing so. > >FRAM is very similar to core in that a read is destructive >and you have to do a write after read but this is all done >transparently by the device. > > I got the datasheets. I wish they did have the write new data option as it would make replacing core much simplier. With the FRAM you have to have TWO memory cycles and early write data as well to emulate core. Ben alias woodelf From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 12 02:03:28 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:03:28 +0000 Subject: Name that cap... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4232A250.3060202@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Well - the spec for the LS121 is pretty well-known. Someone with more > > > IIRC, the pulse width is something like 0.7*R*C > > >>caffeine and inclination than I might well look up the datasheet and >>work out what the value ought to be. It looks like it says "270" >>overscribbled with "220" to me - what units I don't know. Try 220nF. >>If that doesn't work, try 220pF. You'll be in the ballpark with one of >>those. > > > Assuming R is within the recomended range for the IC, you are not going > to get a 5.5us pulse (which sounds about right) with a 270nF cap. 270pF > could well be right. Yeah. Brain fart, brought on by lack of decent caffeine. Gordon. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 12 01:58:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:58:59 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>What's wrong with CMOS parts for interfacing? >>I have a rug and a cat in my apartment. Meow walk ... zap >>I forgot to add , I like things socketed. >> >> > >I have a bunch of 3M antistatic mats available - you need to ground >yourself. > > I have aluminum foil ... :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 12 02:41:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:41:34 -0700 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <42321BE6.9030906@gjcp.net> References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <58608.64.139.41.130.1110570951.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423204A4.3000502@jetnet.ab.ca> <35775.64.139.41.130.1110576553.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <4232113B.8050601@jetnet.ab.ca> <42321BE6.9030906@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4232AB3E.6050003@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Do it the simple, but inelegant way. 6264 CMOS DRAMs and a couple of > AA batteries. Hmm 8Kx8 ram ... thats the dreadied BYTE ... back back you cursed thing. Now a 8Kx9 ram would be very useful for me. 16kx4's useful for PDP 8's. Well I am using 16kx4's and 16kx1's for a homebrew 18/9 bit computer that is to give the illusion of a mini-computer in the 1980 to 1985 time frame that could have been built had the 8 bit micro not advanced into a 16 bit machine as quick as it did. Since the computer does not have overflow and stack operations are shoe-horned into the CPU it is more a digital controler than a real computer like say a PDP 11 but it does have some logic that may make compiler writing simplier. I'll give more details when I am done but I hope to have the flavor of TTL based computer had you been able to get a ALU and Flip/Flops designed around octal digits. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 03:05:48 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:05:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari 1040ST Message-ID: <20050312090549.69158.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Free to a good home, or even a bad one. Atari 1040ST, mouse, monitor and possibly some manuals and software. Possibly another similar Atari for parts. Untested - I was given it and it's sat in it's box ever since. This is in the UK. Email me directly if you're interested. This goes to the tip in a week if no one wants it. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Mar 11 19:20:17 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:20:17 GMT Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110586962.6194.110.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> <1110586962.6194.110.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1110586962.6194.110.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Why not stuff it all in a CPLD? Maybe create a logic-only version too... > > Well personally I prefer logic-only because I know I'll have the parts > here, plus I don't have any sort of programmer for making more exotic > things (ok, so I do have an ancient PAL/EPROM programmer, but without > manuals I've only ever figured out the EPROM side of it :) The Altera ByteBlaster and Xilinx Parallel Download Cables are literally three-component devices - a DB25 connector, a 74LS244 and an IDC header. Plug the cable into the target board, apply power, run the downloader, hit "Program", then wait a few seconds for the fuse data to download. > But also I think that keeping it simple (and understandable) should be a > goal to enable it to buildable by anyone with a few electronics skills. > If it means it encourages more people to build it and back up classic > media, it's got to be a good thing :-) Only problem is, you might not be able to get TTL logic chips up to the necessary speeds. > > 70nS SRAM should work fine, and most SRAM is pretty cheap too. I've got a > > 512kbit here that cost about ?4 and is rated to 70nS IIRC. > > OK so four of those would be enough. That's not *too* costly I suppose, > although it probably makes it enough for people to think twice about > it. Not to mention the fact that the output from a floppy drive is 1-bit binary. Adding a 74LS164 shift register would mean you could use a slower RAM at the expense of slightly more complicated logic and data decompiling. Writing to disc would also be a very useful feature, lower priority than reading of course. USB Option Board anyone? > I still like the idea of SRAM from old PC motherboards; didn't they > normally have 64 or even 128KBytes? Free then; with other parts costs > it'd probably make the whole thing do-able for a fiver or so (more with > a few frills like a case, PSU etc.) I've got a TAG RAM here from a Pentium board and it's only 16k. I'm still trying to find a few more of them... > Yeah, I bailed on IDE for PC systems about 8 or so years ago and have > only ever used SCSI since. It's nice having the DVD drive, CDROM, DAT > etc. up on the desk and the rest of the machine tucked away underneath. I haven't seen any SCSI DVD writers (or readers for that matter) for ages. I think a few of the first writers were SCSI, but now they all seem to be IDE/ATA. I did have a SCSI card in my RiscPC, but I replaced it with a 100BaseT LAN card, seeing as I wasn't using the SCSI (no SCSI devices to use with the card). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Hi! I'm a tagline virus! Steal me & join in the fun! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 12 05:24:01 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:24:01 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "Re: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem" (Mar 11, 23:39) References: <200503102010.j2AKAMWi019387@dewey.classiccmp.org> <10503102318.ZM29658@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1216.192.168.0.3.1110584398.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <10503121124.ZM3521@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 11 2005, 23:39, Witchy wrote: > > > No. It's only the RQDX1 that has the "must be last on the bus" > > problem, and only then if what's below it uses DMA and interrupts. > > RQDX2 and RQDX3 have no such limitation. You won't find an RQDX1 in a > > MicroVAX II because it is not compatible with the MicroVAX II > > processor. > > I know of the incompatibility but I'm surprised at the RQDX3 not having > the limitation - every single microPDP and qbus uVAX I used, installed or > watched Failed Circus maintain had to have the disk controller last on the > bus; the only exception to this was if you had the RQDXE extender for > external drives. Even the machines I've got here now are built like that. The RQDX2 and RQDX3 definitely don't have the limitation. It's in the manuals, and also in Micronotes. I've seen lots of PDP-11s where the RQDX is not the last device, and my MicroVAX-II came with its RQDX3 further up, as well. If you have an RQC25 (then you have my commiserations) it usually goes below the RQDX, as does a KDA50 or a DRV11, according to Micronote 041. And of course if you have two RQDX2/3 controllers, one after the other, both work. That's not true of an RQDX1 (you can only have one). In general, the main reason for the order of things on the QBus has to do with interrupt priority and latency. For example, a DL serial interface can't deal with being too far down the bus, so it usually goes right after the memory; similar rules apply to a DEQNA. However, a DHV11 or a DHQ11 is a bit better, so it can go further down. Tape controllers are often less tolerant than disks, especially if they're supposed to be operated in streaming mode, so they usually go higher up. As I mentioned, even DEC's notes show a config with an RQDX3 further up. However, one of the FS memos says "This device may have to be placed as the last device in the CPU box because of cabling requirements." Also, there is a performance issue with the RQDX2 in systems using lots of block-mode DMA, because while the RQDX2 is doing a block transfer, it holds the bus for longer than is desirable and blocks BDMR while doing so (it does pass it the rest of the time, and an RQDX3 doesn't block BDMR at all). So it should be below things that have problems with latency, like Ethernet or DECnet controllers. However, an RQC25 is even worse in that respect, and it does block transfers in pairs! What's recommended by Field Circus, what's "supported" by DEC, and what works, are three different things! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 12 06:48:19 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:48:19 -0500 Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> <64091.64.139.41.130.1110510036.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <000301c52701$c86303f0$0100a8c0@screamer> I've used (or attempted to use) ATA ZIP 100 meg disks on my HP 1000 ATA disk controller (built on an 8052 platform). ATA disks do indeed alter sector zero, in two different ways based on how the 'Drive A:" jumper is set. You can find some references to this on the web in discussions of Linux drivers for these drives. As for the Compaq drive, I have a Compaq 20 gig drive from a DeskPro machine that has a partition that cannot be altered. If I write over the first tens of sectors (writing all zeros) that drive's firmware will 'restore' the boot block and some number of later sectors. When run on a conventional PC motherboard, its impossible to remove the Compaq diagnostics partition. There is a huge amount of EPROM storage built into this drive. Try as I might, I cannot make this drive act like a normal ATA drive. I spent a lot of time trying to debug a perfectly working HP 1000 interface when the real culprit was this drive. I installed a generic drive and all the problems vanished. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. > Bob wrote: >> ZIP drives, and Compaq ATA drives will actually modify the data in some >> sectors, there is indeed firmware control over the data written to disk. > > I've used "IDE" (ATAPI) ZIP drives extensively on PDP-11 systems and on > PCs running Linux, and I've never encountered a case where the drive wrote > anything to disk other than exactly what it was told to write. > > Possibly the Iomega Windows drivers might interfere, but I never use > those, since they won't run on either Linux or the PDP-11. > > Eric > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 12 07:01:32 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:01:32 -0500 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <20050311042903.12102.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com><20050311104156.U942@localhost> <4231F20A.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002201c52703$9e5e9130$0100a8c0@screamer> Use Dallas NVRAM's. That's what I run in my Imlac to simulate core... ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:31 PM Subject: Re: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts > Tom Jennings wrote: > >> >> Punches are indeed the harder part. I've got a DSI in decent >> shape, nice serial interface for general use, but punch mechanisms >> are harder to find, esp. ones easily interfaced. THere seems to be >> 10 times the number of readers as punches (makes perfect sense in >> context of what paper tape was must used fo rin the computer >> world). > > Well I could buy a used serial punch for about $800 to $1000 us > but they are not for a song like many people have picked up 8's > with a tty or high speed punch. The lack of a punch has kept me from > doing a PDP/8 in a CPLD as well as not knowing of where to get > ferromagnetic? ram. I want real non-voiltile memory. > >> Yup! Even the non-oiled paper will last 500 years if it's kept >> dry. It indeed suffers in the data-density department but it's fun >> to work with on a non-production basis! > > Keeping dry is the hard part unless you got a water tight storage for > tape. > Accidents with water like a broken water line, flood or heavry rain just > wait to happen. > Ben alias woodelf > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 12 07:36:46 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:36:46 +0000 Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: <20050312025204.8483.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050312025204.8483.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4232F06E.90905@gjcp.net> William Maddox wrote: > --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >> Also, have you removed the chip and put some >>contact >>enhancer on it?? ( You know, some silicon grease ) >>Dwight > > > I imagine that some DeOxit or similar would be > good, but silicon grease? I thought that was > for *thermal* conductivity only. > Stops oxygen getting at the connections. Probably doesn't work that well when the grease breaks down to SiO2 with heat... Gordon. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Mar 12 09:19:37 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:19:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I have aluminum foil ... :) A cheap substitute, but it is actually not perfect. With ESD safe facilities, you want some resistance, not zero. You want charges to dissipate relatively slowly, rather than a quick zap. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 12 09:31:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:31:39 -0500 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16947.2907.942000.387111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> I have aluminum foil ... :) William> A cheap substitute, but it is actually not perfect. With ESD William> safe facilities, you want some resistance, not zero. You William> want charges to dissipate relatively slowly, rather than a William> quick zap. Maybe. I think the main reason for the 1 Mohm resistor normally used in wrist straps is safety: if you touch a live wire, you won't get a substantial current via the strap. Another issue with aluminum foil is that it's coated with an excellent insulator (aluminum oxide) which may or may not be thick enough to interfere with what you were trying to do. paul From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 12 09:43:28 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:43:28 -0500 Subject: Mac memory needed Message-ID: <001101c5271a$3cbefe30$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I'm looking for at least 4 pieces (and up to 8) of 16mb, 70ns, non-parity FPM 30-pin SIMMs for a Mac IIci. The Apple part is APL30P16, but any matched set of four or eight will do. Please contact off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Mar 12 10:06:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:06:10 -0500 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques (was: Troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: References: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050312110021.04906780@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > I have aluminum foil ... :) > >A cheap substitute, but it is actually not perfect. With ESD safe >facilities, you want some resistance, not zero. You want charges to >dissipate relatively slowly, rather than a quick zap. But then you don't have "tactile feedback." 'Course, you can always make sure the kids are nearby... ;-) Dontcha just need to put a 1MegOhm resistor between the "Grounding Station" (i.e. foil) and the earth ground connection? Come to think of it, I should build a grounding station area near my TV/stereo/TiVo area - getting off the couch and welding your finger to the TV can't be good... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From brian.russell at iclway.co.uk Fri Mar 11 08:44:33 2005 From: brian.russell at iclway.co.uk (brian.russell) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:44:33 -0000 Subject: 2 Scrambled PERQs ... Going, ... Going, ... Help! Message-ID: <000c01c5266a$43f2c660$de192850@oemcomputer> 2 Scrambled PERQs - Going, ... Going, . Help! I have two PERQs for disposal, a PERQ-1 and a PERQ-2, here in the UK. I would like to get some data off them before disposal, but am unable to do this on my own as both machines are somewhat 'scrambled'. I am in contact with half a dozen PERQ owners, who have helped with copious advice, and to whom the machines will be going once I have finished with them. The purpose of this posting is twofold. Is there anyone who can make me replacement boot floppies (I have blank discs onto which copies can be made)? Is there anyone who has successfully archived data from a PERQ to a PC who can speed up the rather tedious process of writing RS232 communications software that I have embarked upon? This is an update on a posting I placed on the alt.sys.perq newsgroup before Christmas. I am officially chairman of the Mil-DAP (Military version, Distributed Array Processor) Resurrection Working Party. These two machines were donated to the CCS (Computer Conservation Society) to help in the attempt to resurrect the Mil-DAP. We have succeeded in bringing together the complete set of hardware for the Mil-DAP itself and its PERQ-2 host computer. The DAP and host PERQ have been handed over to The Science Museum, South Kensington, London. The equipment will go to the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton, near Swindon. The Science Museum does not want our two remaining PERQs, as they are not actually a part of the Mil-DAP itself. The PERQ-1 is thought to contain some DAP-specific software, which we intend to copy off onto floppy discs. Copies will then be sent to the Science Museum. After that, we have no further use for the PERQs and we have nowhere to keep them. I would have been unhappy (euphemism!) to see them chucked in the bin. From contacts made thorough alt.sys.perq, I now have homes for the two machines, but I still have a duty to archive the data on them before I can release them. The PERQ-1 is thought to contain some DAP-specific software, which we intend to copy off onto floppy discs (and, if possible, archive onto CD). This is proving to be more difficult than we expected; any advice would be appreciated! Specifically, does anyone have precisely the right software to build boot floppies for either machine so that the hard discs can be fixed? The states of the two machines are: The PERQ-1 is the machine that might have some DAP software on it. I am effectively in the 'forgotten password' situation (except that I never knew the username or password and have tried most of the usual combinations). This is a PERQ-1 T1 with 4k Control Store, portrait monitor and no tablet. (No, we haven't lost the tablet; it was not there when we picked up the machine! We have now found a possible replacement.) The machine is running POS; the top line of the screen reads: "LogIn version 3.10 POS G.666 a-boot". The machine boots up from its 'rigid disc' and gets to the date/time and user/password prompts. After taking advice, I am going to attempt to archive the entire disk at block level before attempting to change things to give me access at file level. The PERQ-2 is a machine that I hoped to use for copying floppy discs, if nothing more. I appear to have damaged the disc, possibly (probably?) by doing a 'Bye Off' instead of just a 'Bye' or 'Bye Wait'. If this is what is wrong, then I have only myself to blame! Whatever, it now only boot up to Diagnostic 157 (Disc Failure) when supplied with its boot disc. Until recently, the machine booted up correctly when supplied with its Boot Floppy; though it has always stopped at Diagnostic 014 (Could not Boot from Either Disc) when attempting to boot from the hard disc alone. This is a PERQ-2 T2 (feature no. = F2361/06, build control serial no. = T2 1619) with landscape monitor and tablet. If there is a friendly PERQ owner out there somewhere with the appropriate boot floppy or engineering tools could you help, please? If so, please reply to this posting or get in contact at the address below. I have a stock of 8-inch floppies, donated by CCS members, which I can post out to anyone able to make me the necessary copies. Brian M. Russell. bmrussell at iclway.co.uk From john.sambrook at common-sense.com Fri Mar 11 22:48:30 2005 From: john.sambrook at common-sense.com (John Sambrook) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:48:30 -0800 Subject: Format of ".tap" files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: References: <20050312021819.70595.qmail@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4232749E.7010205@common-sense.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:18 PM -0800 3/11/05, John Sambrook wrote: > >> Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on >> www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? >> I'm assuming these files somehow encode block lengths >> and file marks. I'll try to noodle it out, but would >> appreciate any tips as well. > > > If they're .TAP files, they're most likely in the SIMH tape format. > > Zane Thank you, Zane. That appears to be the format. They look like just plain SIMH format. Best, John Sambrook From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 10:13:02 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Format of '.tap' files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312161303.99214.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Eric, Thank you for your help. I've had a look at your utilities link and I'm going to give them a try. Best, John Sambrook --- Eric Smith wrote: > John Sambrook wrote: > > Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on > > www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? > > It's John Wilson's tape image file format. > > A data record consists of a four byte record length, the data, > then another copy of the record length. The record length is stored > in little-endian byte order. > > A tape mark is fourbytes of zeros. > > There are no extra padding bytes to force any alignment. > > Bob Subnik's SIMH tape image file format is similar except that it > uses 16-bit alignment. SIMH comes with utilities to convert the > formats. > > There are also some simple tape image utilities at: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ > > Eric > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From john_sambrook at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 10:13:02 2005 From: john_sambrook at yahoo.com (John Sambrook) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Format of '.tap' files on bitsavers ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050312161303.99214.qmail@web31009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Eric, Thank you for your help. I've had a look at your utilities link and I'm going to give them a try. Best, John Sambrook --- Eric Smith wrote: > John Sambrook wrote: > > Anyone know the format of ".tap" files found on > > www.bitsavers.org/bits/... ? > > It's John Wilson's tape image file format. > > A data record consists of a four byte record length, the data, > then another copy of the record length. The record length is stored > in little-endian byte order. > > A tape mark is fourbytes of zeros. > > There are no extra padding bytes to force any alignment. > > Bob Subnik's SIMH tape image file format is similar except that it > uses 16-bit alignment. SIMH comes with utilities to convert the > formats. > > There are also some simple tape image utilities at: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils/ > > Eric > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Sat Mar 12 10:21:45 2005 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:21:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not quite 10, but FREE alphaserver 800 5/400 Message-ID: <20050312162145.65305.qmail@web53202.mail.yahoo.com> I am posting this from another list. Please reply to the email below. I have no other knowledge of this system. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Digital starion 910 alphaserver 800 5/400. works, but OLD. probably ok for parts; innomax monitor, cambridge soundworks speakers model SPS52; HP Deskjet 540 printer. works well, but is slow. I live in Raymond NH & work in Northwood - pickup can be made either place. kmbiery03077 at yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 12 10:25:12 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:25:12 +0000 Subject: 2 Scrambled PERQs ... Going, ... Going, ... Help! In-Reply-To: <000c01c5266a$43f2c660$de192850@oemcomputer> References: <000c01c5266a$43f2c660$de192850@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <423317E8.4050408@gjcp.net> brian.russell wrote: > 2 Scrambled PERQs - Going, ... Going, . Help! > > I have two PERQs for disposal, a PERQ-1 and a PERQ-2, here in the UK. I > would like to get some data off them before disposal, but am unable to do > this on my own as both machines are somewhat 'scrambled'. I am in contact > with half a dozen PERQ owners, who have helped with copious advice, and to > whom the machines will be going once I have finished with them. The purpose > of this posting is twofold. Is there anyone who can make me replacement boot > floppies (I have blank discs onto which copies can be made)? Is there anyone > who has successfully archived data from a PERQ to a PC who can speed up the > rather tedious process of writing RS232 communications software that I have > embarked upon? > > This is an update on a posting I placed on the alt.sys.perq newsgroup > before Christmas. Spookily enough, I was just reading that post earlier on and wondering "I wonder if they're still there...?" I'd love to help, but I'm not allowed any more big things for a while. Gordon. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 12 10:29:40 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:29:40 -0700 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050312110021.04906780@mail.30below.com> References: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20050312110021.04906780@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <423318F4.6030001@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Dontcha just need to put a 1MegOhm resistor between the "Grounding > Station" (i.e. foil) and the earth ground connection? > Come to think of it you do. How ever in my case the only time I'll be using a ground for static electricity control is when I'll be inserting the chips and that will be with power off. Now modern production of PCB's are a whole different matter. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 12 11:01:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:01:58 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503111850.KAA23540@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503111850.KAA23540@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42332086.9000504@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > I've always been looking at using a DSP chip for this job. >I did expect to read parts of a track at a time and then >reassemble them as condensed data. Chips like the Analog >Devices 2181 have some 80Kbytes of onboard RAM. Although, >it can't all be used for storage at the same time and >some is needed for program space. These chips can be >implemented with a real minimum of outside circuits. >they even have a serial SPI that can be used to read >disk data at higher speeds. These processor run at 30 MIPs >plus. They can run some operations, such as data moving >to arrays in single cycles, including updating of pointers. >They can do as many as 5 operations in a single cycle. > The can bootstrap from simple slowspeed EPROM of FLASH. >One could easily connect one of these to that USB chip >that someone pointer to earlier. >Dwight > > > Look what you are doing is building a generic floppy disk controler. The only high speed device what you use to sync the data/clock pulses to the system cpu clock. The rest is software. I'd sooner use a CPLD designed for generic bit sampling but a PIC would also work with a digital data/clock seperator. Now would getting the people who do cat-weasel create a USB version be a better goal? Ben alias woodelf PS. What about hard-sectored floppy disks, that too may need reading too? From dj.taylor at starpower.net Sat Mar 12 11:25:37 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:25:37 -0500 Subject: kdj11-sd eproms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050312121757.0220c480@pop.rcn.com> At 11:29 PM 3/5/2005, you wrote: >I recently attempted to modify a decserver board >to use the 11/53 roms. I installed the pullup and >burned the images into a pair of am27128A-2dc eproms, >but when I powered up the board it couldn't pass test >#1 with the "KDJ11-D/S 1.00" message. I have successfully modified a DecServer board with the pullup resistor, but your experience sounds familiar to me. It has been a while since I did this conversion but I seem to remember that there was a ROM contents checksum in the PDP11 boot and you had to burn the new rom completely to make sure all the locations were correct. >I reverified the contents of the eproms and thought >that I must've damaged the board when installing the >pullup. Just to be sure though, I remapped the 11/53 >images with "cat 261E5.bin 261E5.bin > 1.bin", >"cat 262E5.bin 262E5.bin > 2.bin", then erased the >original 27256's and burned the new images into them. I think I tried this, burning two copies of the 128 ROM into the 256 ROM, and it didn't work without the pullup resistor. I could be wrong since I am old (probably equal to the average age of people on this list) and MY memory may be failing! >After reinstalling these I powered up, and the board >came up okay: > > 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 > > Commands are Help, Boot, List, Map, Test and Wrap. > Type a command then press the RETURN key: > >So my question is, did I botch the pullup install >or did I use the wrong eproms? What eproms should >work in the kdj11-sd? The originals were am27256dc. > >My next step is to test a teac fd55gfr 149-u5 floppy >drive for use as an rx33. It appears to have the >correct jumpers, but I haven't seen it listed as >one known to work. Can anyone confirm whether >this model can be configured as an rx33? > >Thanks, > >-- >Eric Josephson From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Mar 12 11:32:18 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:32:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <16947.2907.942000.387111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Maybe. I think the main reason for the 1 Mohm resistor normally used > in wrist straps is safety: if you touch a live wire, you won't get a > substantial current via the strap. Certainly an issue, but it is the secondary reason. A lesser value resistor could be used for this reason and still be reasonably safe, however a decently sized resistor is needed for those multi-kV zaps. Somehow I imagine that a comittee was formed, spent oodles of time and money, and came up with 1 Mohm as a comprimise. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Mar 12 11:47:52 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:47:52 -0000 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques References: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca><5.1.0.14.2.20050312110021.04906780@mail.30below.com> <423318F4.6030001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002101c5272b$9dfe68a0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > > > Dontcha just need to put a 1MegOhm resistor between the "Grounding > > Station" (i.e. foil) and the earth ground connection? > > > Come to think of it you do. How ever in my case the only time I'll be > using a ground for static > electricity control is when I'll be inserting the chips and that will be > with power off. Now modern The idea of the 1M resistor (actually, there should be two 1M resistors in series, in case one fails), is to protect the engineer from shock IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, not only touching live parts within the equipment, but also if you come between a "floating" earth (Earth conductor in the UK can be several 10s of volts - I've measured it as high as 80V above true earth) and true ground. I can recomend the 3M products. These are a dissipative type mat, which has a conductive layer between two insulating ones, and discharges static by a capacitive method, the usual wrist straps, and commoning blocks. They also produce a field service kit, consisting of a wrist strap, dissipative mat (with pockets - it will double as an ESD bag), and a grounding point which plugs into a standard mains outlet. The grounding unit has a self test facility for both the ground and the wrist strap. Dissipative mats are better, as you can place a board containing a backup battery on them, without worrying about shorting it out! There are also various mat and starp testing products, but for most of us, these would be a luxury. Jim. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Mar 12 12:24:19 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:24:19 -0500 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques In-Reply-To: <002101c5272b$9dfe68a0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0ID9009QT4FP4Q@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> The idea of the 1M resistor (actually, there should be two 1M resistors in series, in case one fails.. Considering that resistors might open, but rarely short...i would expect this to actually be parallel.... From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Mar 12 12:36:26 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:36:26 -0000 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques References: <0ID9009QT4FP4Q@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <002a01c52732$730ff1c0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "David V. Corbin" > > > The idea of the 1M resistor (actually, there should be two 1M resistors in > series, in case one fails.. > > Considering that resistors might open, but rarely short...i would expect > this to actually be parallel.... > > No, the resistor is there to protect the engineer, not the equipment, hence series. Jim. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 12 12:53:58 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:53:58 -0800 Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <000301c52701$c86303f0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> <64091.64.139.41.130.1110510036.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <000301c52701$c86303f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050312105301.0698bcf0@mail.zipcon.net> At 04:48 AM 3/12/2005, you wrote: >I've used (or attempted to use) ATA ZIP 100 meg disks on my HP 1000 >As for the Compaq drive, I have a Compaq 20 gig drive from a DeskPro >machine that has a partition that cannot be altered. > >If I write over the first tens of sectors (writing all zeros) that drive's >firmware >will 'restore' the boot block and some number of later sectors. do you mean 20 meg drive? the old deskpros with their 20 meg early IDE drives were odd critters.... From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 12 12:42:55 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:42:55 +0100 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Message-ID: <8C8892F6-9326-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> So i got my newest toy, a HP Integral running. Problem turned out to be cold solder joint at the Powerok signal. Strangely enough the current carrying pins nearby were OK. Thanks to Tony and Joe for the pointers... A mechanical problem with the floppy will be sorted later. First impressions : this thing badly needs a harddisk.... Second : if this is HPUX 5.0, what must HPUX 1.0 have been.... Of course i do no have software and manuals. Am i wrong to believe that the system is only really usable with a harddisk, or am i overlooking something ? Jos From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 14:02:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:02:46 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> <1110586962.6194.110.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1110657766.8335.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 01:20 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <1110586962.6194.110.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Why not stuff it all in a CPLD? Maybe create a logic-only version too... > > > > Well personally I prefer logic-only because I know I'll have the parts > > here, plus I don't have any sort of programmer for making more exotic > > things (ok, so I do have an ancient PAL/EPROM programmer, but without > > manuals I've only ever figured out the EPROM side of it :) > > The Altera ByteBlaster and Xilinx Parallel Download Cables are literally > three-component devices - a DB25 connector, a 74LS244 and an IDC header. Plug > the cable into the target board, apply power, run the downloader, hit > "Program", then wait a few seconds for the fuse data to download. Forget all I said then - that's nice and easy ;-) > > I still like the idea of SRAM from old PC motherboards; didn't they > > normally have 64 or even 128KBytes? Free then; with other parts costs > > it'd probably make the whole thing do-able for a fiver or so (more with > > a few frills like a case, PSU etc.) > > I've got a TAG RAM here from a Pentium board and it's only 16k. I'm still > trying to find a few more of them... Hmm, just grabbing a random 486 board from the pile here; it's got 8 61256 chips on it which is presumably 256KB in total. I suppose by the Pentium era the cache was all in the CPU or something though... > I did have a SCSI card in my RiscPC, but I replaced it with a 100BaseT LAN > card, seeing as I wasn't using the SCSI (no SCSI devices to use with the > card). I unearthed about ten Acorn SCSI cards the other day :-) seeya J. From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 14:21:55 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:21:55 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050312202155.GA26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:37:57PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm one of the lucky ones, all of my main PDP-11's have SCSI > adapters. However, only one of my two -8's (/m & /e) have a disk > controller, though I've not found time to get either -8 fully running > :^( One thing that really worries me is that the days of being able > to get new SCSI disks that will work with a PDP-11 are coming to an > end, if they aren't already over. One of the vendors that is very > good with getting 3rd party disks to work with VMS has reported that > the new U320 drives don't sync down to Narrow SCSI right. What about Acard IDE->scsi adapters? Anyone tried using one of them on such machines? There has been a lot of success in using those cards on older narrow Suns and SGIs with modern IDE disks. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 14:28:30 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:28:30 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050312202830.GB26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Mar 04, 2005 at 12:21:32AM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Thursday 03 March 2005 11:47 pm: > > I personally would rather see some more hobbyist work on PCI Qbus > > and/or Unibus cards, the current commercial ones run $2500-$3000 and > > it would be GREAT to run SimH and have access to all the drives, tape > > systems and so forth directly with something more like $250-$500 vs > > the $2500-$3000 cards. > > I've considered this before, and the PCI part seems to be a sizable > stubling block. Why would PCI be a stumbling block? Check out http://www.fpga4fun.com/PCI.html They make PCI look easy. I just wish I could find the time to play with it to justify ordering their proto-card. I suspect that someone who can talk about actually making their own FPGA CPU is probably someone who would be able to make PCI cards. And PCI drivers aren't all that difficult to write either (and this time I am talking from limited personal experience). I get the impression that they may actually be simpler than writing drivers for ISA card (though I haven't actually tried writing those yet). -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 12 14:42:51 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:42:51 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Not quite 10, but FREE alphaserver 800 5/400 In-Reply-To: <20050312162145.65305.qmail@web53202.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050312162145.65305.qmail@web53202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1440.192.168.0.3.1110660171.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Digital starion 910 alphaserver 800 5/400. works, but OLD. probably > ok for parts; innomax monitor, cambridge soundworks speakers model > SPS52; HP Deskjet 540 printer. works well, but is slow. > I live in Raymond NH & work in Northwood - pickup can be made either > place. dammit, I'd love that (well, the machine anyway) but I'm in the wrong country! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 15:04:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:04:20 -0800 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: <20050312202155.GA26948@jdboyd.zill.net> References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> <20050312202155.GA26948@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: >On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:37:57PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I'm one of the lucky ones, all of my main PDP-11's have SCSI >> adapters. However, only one of my two -8's (/m & /e) have a disk >> controller, though I've not found time to get either -8 fully running >> :^( One thing that really worries me is that the days of being able >> to get new SCSI disks that will work with a PDP-11 are coming to an >> end, if they aren't already over. One of the vendors that is very >> good with getting 3rd party disks to work with VMS has reported that >> the new U320 drives don't sync down to Narrow SCSI right. > >What about Acard IDE->scsi adapters? Anyone tried using one of them on >such machines? There has been a lot of success in using those cards on >older narrow Suns and SGIs with modern IDE disks. I don't know of anyone having used the Acard adapters on a PDP-11 (doesn't really make sense at this point, since cheap small SCSI drives are still easy to get). OTOH, there are people using them with OpenVMS on DEC Alpha's. The downside is that they don't fully support the SCSI standard, and as such, they can't be used if you want to cluster the HD's. At least this was the case, the last I heard, I'd love to be proven wrong, as I'd like to get a pair of UW ones for my VMS server. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 14:54:38 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:54:38 -0500 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <200503111908.j2BJ8J7Y008626@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200503111908.j2BJ8J7Y008626@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <20050312205438.GC26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Mar 11, 2005 at 01:08:19PM -0600, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > As for the open source version, there's actually a bunch of them: > Open BeOS - http://open-beos.sourceforge.net/news.php I believe they moved (and changed their name) to http://haiku-os.org/ Of the open source systems you mention, I think this is the only one that's very BeOS like and alive. > FreeOS (Now Called Mockup, a BeOS/Linux mixture) - > http://www.mockup.org/faqs/whats/ > > Athos - http://www.atheos.cx/ Athos is peculiar in that everyone except > the author calls it a BeOS clone. ;) I think that one is long dead. > There's also a new commercial version called Zeta developed by YellowTab > (former European distributor of BeOS), based on directly on BeOS. > According to one site it's based Dano/EXP's codeline (which was supposed > to be BeOS 6 but was never finished as Be sold its IP to Palm). > http://yellowtab.com/products/ > > Here's a review of an early beta from 3 years ago - > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3692 They don't seem to have actually done anything important in the time since then. Although, 1.0 is soon to be released, and maybe it will finally get things rolling again. Sigh. This topic always opens the gaping maw of depression. I really, really, really loved BeOS. I ran it full time as my main desktop OS for awhile. > I have to agree, but then that efficiency could be because BeOS isn't > running a kludge verson of FreeBSD/Mac GUI in a MACH environment. ;) On the flip side, I think Objective C is far nicer than C++. I know many people disagree, but in retrospect, I'm glad OS X is what it is rather than an updated BeOS. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 14:56:48 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:56:48 -0500 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1110542957.6194.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050312205648.GD26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Mar 11, 2005 at 12:09:17PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's pretty slick for the time, although I suppose all the nicer > features have been copied now within modern OSes. The integration > between desktop and command-line shell is nicely done. If they have been copied, people don't seem to be using them. I'm specifically thinking of the file system data base features, which I believe ReiserFS is supposed to be capable of. It could be fun to try to backport such things to vintage unixs. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 12 15:11:33 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:11:33 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <1216.192.168.0.3.1110584398.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Witchy wrote: > I know of the incompatibility but I'm surprised at the RQDX3 > not having the limitation - every single microPDP and qbus > uVAX I used, installed or watched Failed Circus maintain had > to have the disk controller last on the bus; the only > exception to this was if you had the RQDXE extender for > external drives. Even the machines I've got here now are built > like that. RQDX1 was a mistake - the fix was the RQDX2. The RQDX3 is fine and its position on the bus is determined by other factors, mostly whether the cable can reach it or not :-) > The only definition I've seen is that Q22/CD boards are the > 'S-handle' types for the BA4xx (and some BA2xx) and non-CD > boards need to either have jumpers removed (KDA50 springs to > mind) or etches cut. Whether you need to cut stuff or not depends on what lives where. If you have a board in the following CD slot and you do not remove the jumper or perform the appropriate surgery, then you will be feeding signals to that board which may upset it. If the adjacent CD slot is empty, then I don't think you need worry about anything. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 15:01:46 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:01:46 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? In-Reply-To: References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> <20050312202155.GA26948@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <20050312210146.GE26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I don't know of anyone having used the Acard adapters on a PDP-11 > (doesn't really make sense at this point, since cheap small SCSI > drives are still easy to get). OTOH, there are people using them > with OpenVMS on DEC Alpha's. The downside is that they don't fully > support the SCSI standard, and as such, they can't be used if you > want to cluster the HD's. At least this was the case, the last I > heard, I'd love to be proven wrong, as I'd like to get a pair of UW > ones for my VMS server. You could always try emailing the engineers at Acard about the feature needed. They might slip it in if people expressed interest, considering that they make a point of support Irix and Solaris users as well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 12 15:04:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:04:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <8C8892F6-9326-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Mar 12, 5 07:42:55 pm Message-ID: > > So i got my newest toy, a HP Integral running. Problem turned out to be > cold solder joint at the Powerok signal. Strangely enough the current > carrying pins nearby were OK. > Thanks to Tony and Joe for the pointers... > A mechanical problem with the floppy will be sorted later. FWIW, I've worked on a lot of these floppy drives, including rebuilding the speindle brearings and replacing heads, so I can almost certainly talk you through any repairs. > > First impressions : this thing badly needs a harddisk.... Agreed. I use an HP9133H plugged into the HPIB port. I think other HP drive boxes work. > Second : if this is HPUX 5.0, what must HPUX 1.0 have been.... > > Of course i do no have software and manuals. Am i wrong to believe that There's a web site with some free software available... > the system is only really usable with a harddisk, or am i overlooking > something ? No, they really should have made a hard disk, and a serial port, standard... -tony From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 15:13:17 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:13:17 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503110049.j2B0nQYG008606@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <1110504341.4413.91.camel@weka.localdomain> <46e0db494d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1110561380.6178.63.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050312211317.GG26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Mar 11, 2005 at 05:16:20PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Well if worst-case is 1mbps data rate at 300rpm and 8x oversample, isn't > that (8 * 10240 * 1024) / 5 = 1677722 bits of memory maximum needed? > Can static RAM can't cope with these kinds of speeds? Presumably cache > chips pulled from old PC motherboards would cope happily, even if old > 80's parts wouldn't. Easily and cheaply gotten SRAM should easily be able to cope with speeds like 1 megabit a second or even 1 megabyte a second or even 10 megabytes a second, or even more. > It's probably still beyond my abilities to design something that'd > work :-) But on the surface it doesn't sound *that* complicated for > someone who's used to designing digital circuits. But don't look at me. I just look at designs, I don't really make them. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Sat Mar 12 15:15:28 2005 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:15:28 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk Controller In-Reply-To: <200503120422.j2C4MRHI019749@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200503120405.j2C457WH053856@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503120422.j2C4MRHI019749@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050312211528.GH26948@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Mar 11, 2005 at 11:22:29PM -0500, Barry Watzman wrote: > I'd really rather see it done with a real FDC chip. While there might be > some loss of flexibility in dealing with a few formats, I didn't mean to > imply that I was ONLY interested in reading. With the right software, I > could open an "explorer" window on an XP machine and "drag-and-drop" files > .... to an 8" CP/M diskette. Or write a "system track". You don't need a normal off the shelf floppy controller to get your wish. You just need someone to write the proper drivers. I wouldn't count on that for XP though. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd at jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 12 15:32:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sunshine T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050311151237.00a3c290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050311151237.00a3c290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050312133058.B682@localhost> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Subject: Sunshine T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? > > Is anyone here familar with this programmer? It's about the size and > layout of an old Kaypro portable computer. This is Sunshine Co. of > Calfornia and not the Sunshine Co. of Taiwan that made a lot of the cheap > PC based EPROM programmers. Brief description here > .. Wow, I used a Sunshine EPROM programmer back in the CP/M days, I have the code that drives it still. But mine didn't have a 1.7 gaga byte hard drive. ---- From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 12 15:38:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: <20050311173704.2bcba989.william.layer@comcast.net> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <1110543224.6178.15.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050311173704.2bcba989.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050312133649.K682@localhost> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, William Layer wrote: > You do not want to use a glue or adhesive for this; when time comes to clean & re-oil the filter, you will never get it off.. > > I'd suggest using one of the aerosol air filter oils, like the stuff produced by K&N or Spectro. These oils are bourne in solvent, and when the solvent evaporates, it leaves behind a sticky oil film that traps dirt. Oh yeah, glues would be bad, it needs to be water soluable. The automotive K&N stuff -- great idea! Probably crappy old AutoZone has it (the "tuner" kids by all that crap). Same problem, right solution. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 15:08:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:08:59 -0500 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques (was: Troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050312110021.04906780@mail.30below.com> References: <4232A143.8050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312160859.00933aa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:06 AM 3/12/05 -0500, Roger "Merch" Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: >> > I have aluminum foil ... :) >> >>A cheap substitute, but it is actually not perfect. With ESD safe >>facilities, you want some resistance, not zero. You want charges to >>dissipate relatively slowly, rather than a quick zap. > >But then you don't have "tactile feedback." 'Course, you can always make >sure the kids are nearby... ;-) > >Dontcha just need to put a 1MegOhm resistor between the "Grounding Station" >(i.e. foil) and the earth ground connection? > >Come to think of it, I should build a grounding station area near my >TV/stereo/TiVo area - getting off the couch and welding your finger to the >TV can't be good... Hey, all the more reason to by that fancy new TV with the remote control :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 15:39:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:39:11 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <8C8892F6-9326-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312163911.00a4eb50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:42 PM 3/12/05 +0100, you wrote: >So i got my newest toy, a HP Integral running. Problem turned out to be >cold solder joint at the Powerok signal. Strangely enough the current >carrying pins nearby were OK. >Thanks to Tony and Joe for the pointers... >A mechanical problem with the floppy will be sorted later. IIRC the floppy drives in the IPC are subject to the usual HP >>DS<< floppy disk problem. The grease on the mechanism dries out and the mechanism doesn't open all the way and when the user tries to insert or remove a disk it tears the top head off of the drive. Examine it closely to be sure that the mechanism opens COMPLETELY before using it. Or better yet, go ahead and remove the drive then clean off the old grease and relube it with a GOOD quality grease that won't harden (I use gun grease). > >First impressions : this thing badly needs a harddisk.... >Second : if this is HPUX 5.0, what must HPUX 1.0 have been.... HP-UX 1.o and HPUX 5.0 are virtually the same thing. HP renumbered it for some reason but everything seems to be the same. I checked at one time and I couldn't find any differences. > >Of course i do no have software and manuals. Most of that is online now. Let me know if you have trouble finding it and I'll dig up the URL again. Am i wrong to believe that >the system is only really usable with a harddisk, Not if you have the Software Engineering ROM :-) It gives you the complete HP-UX System 5 in ROM. Seriously, the IPC was sold as a replacement >> FOR THE HP-85! << You're supposed to write application programs and run them from the floppy disk. or am i overlooking >something ? Like any computer, it really benefits from a decent sized fixed disk drive. The good news is that every CS-80 drive (virtually all of the HP HP-IB hard drives) seem to work on the IPC even if HP doesn't list it as being applicable. I'm using a HP 7958 (~160Mb IIRC) and it works perfectly. The other side benefit is that with most HP hard drives you also get a floppy drive so that gives you a 2nd floppy on the system. I think I have every piece of software that HP ever released for the IPC (Yes, I'm serious) and I've installed all of them on the 7958 and they take up only a SMALL portion of the drive. I have two IPCs in my bedroom along with the HP 7958 and you're making me want to go fire them up and do something :-) BTW I use a HP 2671 Thermal printer on my IPC and it seems to work fine. The Thinkjet is ok but it leaks and/or dries up (Usually both!) if you don't use it regularly. The 2671 is cheap, quiet and can sit unused for long periods and will work with no tinkering. There's one for sale on E-bay ( ) but his starting price is about 3 times higher than what they usually SELL for. Joe > > Jos > > From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 12 15:41:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:41:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050312133958.I682@localhost> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> I think it's called "figs" or "fig". >> >> >> Do you mean DEC PHIGS by any chance? > > No, but I had the name wrong. It's "figlet". :) fig/xfig is a general-purpose drawing program; X application. Doesn't do ASCII character drawing, which is not typical orthogonal line drawing. It's specialized. figlet does only this: tomj at fiche:~ echo foo | figlet __ / _| ___ ___ | |_ / _ \ / _ \ | _| (_) | (_) | |_| \___/ \___/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 15:48:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:48:26 -0500 Subject: Sunshine T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? In-Reply-To: <20050312133058.B682@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20050311151237.00a3c290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050311151237.00a3c290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312164826.00a53610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:32 PM 3/12/05 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Subject: Sunshine T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? >> >> Is anyone here familar with this programmer? It's about the size and >> layout of an old Kaypro portable computer. This is Sunshine Co. of >> Calfornia and not the Sunshine Co. of Taiwan that made a lot of the cheap >> PC based EPROM programmers. Brief description here >> .. > >Wow, I used a Sunshine EPROM programmer back in the CP/M days, I have >the code that drives it still. > >But mine didn't have a 1.7 gaga byte hard drive. Yeah! Sounds nice doesn't it! A pentium CPU AND a 64180 CPU!! Actually I made a mistake. I was operating from memory and I thought the brand name was Sunshine but it's actually Sunrise. I spotted them (2) in a scrap yard yesterday and wasn't sure what they were. But after finding the brief description at the URL above I decided to grab them and try them out. I went back this morning and brought them both home. I JUST got in and haven't even taken them out of the car yet. FWIW according to the labels on them they were used for some elctronics system on the FA-18. Keeping my fingers crossed that they still work and that I can use them. Joe From tomj at wps.com Sat Mar 12 16:04:50 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:04:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Data General Nova 4/x page, update Message-ID: <20050312135611.U682@localhost> I know it's not a crucial new announcement or anything, just an update... Just fyi, I've reorged my Nova 4 website (http://wps.com/NOVA4/) a bit. Took some of photos of internals, such as the disk drive (when I re-cleaned the heads after 20 hours of operation -- utterly spotless, whew!) last week. Changed are mainly organization, plus added photos, and a tiny bit of software, including classic (sic) MORE. I've been an idiot about this Kermit program, I'm workign on it now. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 12 16:04:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:04:49 +0000 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050312133958.I682@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> Message-ID: <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 13:41 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > figlet does only this: > > tomj at fiche:~ echo foo | figlet > __ > / _| ___ ___ > | |_ / _ \ / _ \ > | _| (_) | (_) | > |_| \___/ \___/ That reminded me that I haven't run 'banner' in years. Many an hour was wasted at uni with everyone piping banner output to the write command... labs used to be awash with the sounds of terminals beeping. Banner seems to still be here on this desktop (Slackware 10) and the ASCII-rendered letter quality has improved vastly over the years! On a related note, I think there's a plugin/patch for SVGALib under Linux to render everything in ASCII, which is what made running Doom from a VT220 possible (not particularly usable, but it works! ;) cheers Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 12 16:04:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:04:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050312163911.00a4eb50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 12, 5 04:39:11 pm Message-ID: > IIRC the floppy drives in the IPC are subject to the usual HP >>DS<< > floppy disk problem. The grease on the mechanism dries out and the They are! It's the usual Sony unit, albeit here without the front panel. The eject mechanism is the same, and suffers from dried out grease. One minor thing to be aware of is that when you remove the drive from the Integral, the eject button and spring are loose in the Integral's front panel. It's best to take them out before they get lost. > mechanism doesn't open all the way and when the user tries to insert or > remove a disk it tears the top head off of the drive. Examine it closely to > be sure that the mechanism opens COMPLETELY before using it. Or better yet, > go ahead and remove the drive then clean off the old grease and relube it > with a GOOD quality grease that won't harden (I use gun grease). I find it's best to take the eject mechanism totally apart (it's not that many parts, really clean the grease off, and put the a slight smear of grease back on. It may take a little more time now, but replacing and aligning a head takes a lot longer. > BTW I use a HP 2671 Thermal printer on my IPC and it seems to work fine. If that's the one I think it is (thermal printer), I have a 2671G somewhere. It's quite happy using fax paper.... Annoying story. The 2671 is designed to use 216mm wide paper. I went into a stationery shop over here, and all the had was 210mm rolls (which is the European standard). I bought one and found the 2671 would print on it, but yuu had to get it in just the right place on the chassis or it would jam. The printhead would catch on the edge of the paper and really snarl up. So I made a couple of brass spacers to slip over the ends of the paper roll spindle to keep it in the right place. Worked fine. I was happy. Until I went to another branch of the same shop. They had 216mm wide fax rolls too.... The 9845 built-in thermal printer (I happen to have one in many bits on my bench [1]) seems to be 216mm wide with a 6mm plastic spacer plate clipped to the right-hand side, so as to use 210mm wide paper. Since it's a fixed printhead in that machine (full width of the paper, 560 elements IIRC), I guess either width works.. [1] I haev just finished figuring out the PSU. It's quite the most complicated one I have ever worked on. 2 main choppers (each with 2 transsitors in push-pull), 3 more switching regulators on the LV side, 5 chopper control ICs, overvoltage comparators on all outputs, Eeek. 17 ICs on the contorl board (including the PIC6xx choppers), 16 transistors on the main chopper board, and so on... > The Thinkjet is ok but it leaks and/or dries up (Usually both!) if you I have had a few 'normal' Thinkjets in for repair where leaking ink has corroded and ruined the flexiprint cable that goes from the carriage (and carries the contacts for the cartridge) to the main PCB. I have never found a way of repairing this PCB. On a 'normal' Thinkjet you can raid the part from any other Thinkjet, so you can, say, use a fairly useless RS232 one to fix an HPIL one, useful on the HP71, etc. But although the Integral's Thinkjet is electrically the same, the mechanical layout is different, and the cables between the PCB and the mechanism are longer -- including this flexible PCB. AFAIK the only place to get one from is another Integral. Do not leave ink cartridges in the Integral's printer. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 16:15:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:15:08 -0500 Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312171508.0185f310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I picked this up yesterday and got it working last night. Does anyone have a manual for it? It's a small Oscilliscope-like device that's used for testing transistors and the like. Oh yeah, I'm going to use it to fix my vintage equipment. Joe From willisjo at zianet.com Sat Mar 12 16:18:47 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:18:47 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: Here's an update, for all who may be interested in it: The MicroVAX II now has the following configuration: A B C D +-------------------------------------+ | CPU | +-------------------------------------+ | Memory | +-------------------------------------+ | TQK50 | EMPTY | +-------------------------------------+ | DHV11 | +-------------------------------------+ | DRQ3 | +-------------------------------------+ | RQDX3 | EMPTY | +-------------------------------------+ I'm trying to get my hands on a DELQA or a DEQNA. Will this require yet another re-shuffle of the cards, or can I move the RQDX3 to the end and put the DELQA/DEQNA where the RQDX3 is now? Anyhow, here's the skinny on what VMS is seeing from the system. The machine came with a real treasure from its old owner: Copies of VMS 5.1, 5.4, 5.4-1, 5.5, and 5.5-1 on TK50 tapes, all still shrinkwrapped, in Digital Software cardboard boxes, with the manuals, also shrinkwrapped, in the original shipping boxes with packing list, still taped shut. It also came with LMF, and DEC FORTRAN also still shrinkwrapped. I upgraded from VMS 5.1 to 5.4. The upgrade went off without a hitch, as the kit came with the MicroVAX II Supplement. The software all comes with 50 seat license PAKs. Here's the output from SHOW DEVICES now: Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt DUA0: Mounted 0 VMSRL5 164187 125 1 Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt MUA0: Online 0 Device Device Error Name Status Count FTA0: Offline 0 OPA0: Online 0 TXA0: Online 0 TXA1: Online 0 TXA2: Online 0 TXA3: Online 0 TXA4: Online 0 TXA5: Online 0 TXA6: Online 0 TXA7: Online 0 Device Device Error Name Status Count HXA0: Online 0 HXA1: Online 0 PTA0: Online 1 PUA0: Online 1 WSA0: Offline 0 I've done a full BACKUP/IMAGE/RECORD of DUA0: to TK50s, as I will probably be dumping this install for Quasijarus as soon as I am able. VMS and I do not get along. John From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Mar 12 11:40:42 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:40:42 +0000 Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050312171508.0185f310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050312223714.QFV1567.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:15:08 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: "Joe R." > Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > I picked this up yesterday and got it working last night. Does anyone > have a manual for it? It's a small Oscilliscope-like device that's used > for testing transistors and the like. Oh yeah, I'm going to use it to fix > my vintage equipment. Very useful tool to trace the p/n junction curves. Very useful to isolate, open, shorted and more especially those diffcult to find lazy transistors and diodes, matching two or more transistors etc. Usually called curve tracer. But you can do same with your scope using home made ocputus box which I don't know the schematic for, my coworker has that little box but he doesn't know where this schematic of this because he made that curve tracer box decades ago. Cheers, Wizard > Joe > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 12 16:38:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:38:39 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem References: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <16947.28527.31000.254094@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Willis writes: John> I'm trying to get my hands on a DELQA or a DEQNA. I'd recommend a DELQA. The DEQNA went through 12 revisions before DEC gave up on it and replaced it by the DELQA, which is a different design entirely. I think the later DEQNA revs actually do work fairly well, but as far as I remember no DEQNA of any rev is recommended for use in clusters. (Reason: data integrity issues, if memory serves.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 12 16:40:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:40:32 -0500 Subject: Create a VAX CPU with FPGA? References: <4227E84A.5050802@atarimuseum.com> <200503040021.32430.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050312202830.GB26948@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <16947.28640.843000.31620@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Boyd writes: Joshua> Why would PCI be a stumbling block? Joshua> Check out http://www.fpga4fun.com/PCI.html They make PCI look Joshua> easy. I don't speak Verilog so I can't dig deep, but from a cursory scan I'd say that what they do is make very small subsets of PCI look easy. Sure, that makes sense. But the full PCI standard is pretty large, and PCI cells for FPGAs are also pretty large. You may or may not end up with problems if you pull out much of the spec. paul From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 17:00:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:00:05 -0500 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:04:49 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 13:41 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > figlet does only this: > > > > tomj at fiche:~ echo foo | figlet > > __ > > / _| ___ ___ > > | |_ / _ \ / _ \ > > | _| (_) | (_) | > > |_| \___/ \___/ > > That reminded me that I haven't run 'banner' in years. Many an hour > was wasted at uni with everyone piping banner output to the write > command... labs used to be awash with the sounds of terminals beeping. > > Banner seems to still be here on this desktop (Slackware 10) and the > ASCII-rendered letter quality has improved vastly over the years! > > On a related note, I think there's a plugin/patch for SVGALib under > Linux to render everything in ASCII, which is what made running Doom > from a VT220 possible (not particularly usable, but it works! ;) > > cheers > > Jules > > > I believe hearing about (and seeing) a whole rendering of Star Wars for ASCII. Unfortunately, I remember it being 'released' as a MacroMedia Flash object. -scott From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 16:55:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:55:00 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050312163911.00a4eb50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312175500.0093e7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:04 PM 3/12/05 +0000, you wrote: >> IIRC the floppy drives in the IPC are subject to the usual HP >>DS<< >> floppy disk problem. The grease on the mechanism dries out and the > >They are! It's the usual Sony unit, albeit here without the front panel. >The eject mechanism is the same, and suffers from dried out grease. > >One minor thing to be aware of is that when you remove the drive from the >Integral, the eject button and spring are loose in the Integral's front >panel. It's best to take them out before they get lost. Good point. I'd forgotten about that. > >> mechanism doesn't open all the way and when the user tries to insert or >> remove a disk it tears the top head off of the drive. Examine it closely to >> be sure that the mechanism opens COMPLETELY before using it. Or better yet, >> go ahead and remove the drive then clean off the old grease and relube it >> with a GOOD quality grease that won't harden (I use gun grease). > >I find it's best to take the eject mechanism totally apart (it's not that >many parts, really clean the grease off, and put the a slight smear of >grease back on. It may take a little more time now, but replacing and >aligning a head takes a lot longer. > >> BTW I use a HP 2671 Thermal printer on my IPC and it seems to work fine. > >If that's the one I think it is (thermal printer), I have a 2671G >somewhere. It's quite happy using fax paper.... That's it. The G printer is the graphics version. I have the manual for it somewhere. I should dig it out and scan it and post it somewhere. The 2671 is a very under rated printer IMO. > >Annoying story. The 2671 is designed to use 216mm wide paper. I went into >a stationery shop over here, and all the had was 210mm rolls (which is >the European standard). I bought one and found the 2671 would print on >it, but yuu had to get it in just the right place on the chassis or it >would jam. The printhead would catch on the edge of the paper and really >snarl up. > >So I made a couple of brass spacers to slip over the ends of the paper >roll spindle to keep it in the right place. Worked fine. I was happy. > >Until I went to another branch of the same shop. They had 216mm wide fax >rolls too.... > >The 9845 built-in thermal printer (I happen to have one in many bits on >my bench [1]) seems to be 216mm wide with a 6mm plastic spacer plate clipped >to the right-hand side, so as to use 210mm wide paper. Since it's a fixed >printhead in that machine (full width of the paper, 560 elements IIRC), I >guess either width works.. I've been wondering, how similar is the printer in the 9845 to the one in the 2671 and to the optional ones used in the HP-150 and the ones used in the old HP terminals? > >[1] I haev just finished figuring out the PSU. It's quite the most >complicated one I have ever worked on. 2 main choppers (each with 2 >transsitors in push-pull), 3 more switching regulators on the LV side, 5 >chopper control ICs, overvoltage comparators on all outputs, Eeek. 17 ICs >on the contorl board (including the PIC6xx choppers), 16 transistors on >the main chopper board, and so on... Eeck! Why does HP always over complicate their PSUs! > >> The Thinkjet is ok but it leaks and/or dries up (Usually both!) if you > >I have had a few 'normal' Thinkjets in for repair where leaking ink has >corroded and ruined the flexiprint cable that goes from the carriage (and >carries the contacts for the cartridge) to the main PCB. I have never >found a way of repairing this PCB. The contacts are formed from little copper tits that seem to be lightly glued to the cable and I've found that if you WIPE the contact area of the cable that you will most likely wipe the contacts right off of it. If I have to clean one I rinse it a LOT and GENTLY blot it. > >On a 'normal' Thinkjet you can raid the part from any other Thinkjet, so >you can, say, use a fairly useless RS232 one to fix an HPIL one, useful >on the HP71, etc. Yeap. I've been hoarding ThinkJets for that very reason. I used to order the flex cables for the standard ThinkJets for something like $7 and they would deliver them overnight via FedEx! I haven't ordered one in years and I'm told that they're out of them now. But although the Integral's Thinkjet is electrically >the same, the mechanical layout is different, and the cables between the >PCB and the mechanism are longer -- including this flexible PCB. Yeap, I've looked at both cables side by side and they're the same except the IPC cable is about twice as long. I suppose that if you got desperate for one for the IPC you could get a good one from a ThinkJet and cut it apart and solder in an extension in the non-flexing area. AFAIK >the only place to get one from is another Integral. Do not leave ink >cartridges in the Integral's printer. Don't leave cartridges in any ThinkJet printer that you don't use EVERYDAY IMO! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 12 17:00:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:00:13 -0500 Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? In-Reply-To: <20050312223714.QFV1567.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <3.0.6.32.20050312171508.0185f310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050312180013.0093e490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:40 PM 3/12/05 +0000, Wizard wrote: >> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:15:08 -0500 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> From: "Joe R." >> Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? >> Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >> I picked this up yesterday and got it working last night. Does anyone >> have a manual for it? It's a small Oscilliscope-like device that's used >> for testing transistors and the like. Oh yeah, I'm going to use it to fix >> my vintage equipment. > >Very useful tool to trace the p/n junction curves. Very useful to >isolate, open, shorted and more especially those diffcult to find >lazy transistors and diodes, matching two or more transistors etc. > >Usually called curve tracer. I thought so. I don't know why they didn't call it that. > >But you can do same with your scope using home made ocputus box >which I don't know the schematic for, my coworker has that little box >but he doesn't know where this schematic of this because he made that >curve tracer box decades ago. I have a couple of homemade ones and a Tektronix 5 mumble mumble but this is a nice small unit. I really love the tektronix but it's HUGE! I have to take everything else off my workbench just to put it on there! I can use the B&K without the manual but I like to know all the tricks and details about the stuff that I use. Joe > >Cheers, > >Wizard >> Joe >> > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat Mar 12 18:05:01 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:05:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sun 4/470 with plenty of spare bits available, Wellington - New Zealand Message-ID: Greetings; I have a Sun 4/470 available in Wellington, New Zealand, available for pick-up to whoever wants it. This was my VERY FIRST collected machine, and I truly and honestly loathe to let it go, but I have since emigrated the country and it needs to be removed from my parents house. (If anyone is famaliar with Actrix, the first public ISP in New Zealand (and one of the first in the world), this 4/470 *was* Actrix for a couple years, shemal.actrix.gen.nz) The machine does work, I bought a 'new' CPU card for it in 1999 as the original was flaky. The machine has the stock 33mHz processor and 128MB memory (4x 32MB cards) installed, two 1.3GB SCSI disks and four 911MB IPI2 disks. The 4/470 is in two cabinets (VME chassis & IPI2 disk chassis), desk side arrangement. All cabling is included, plus spare processor card, a stack of peripheral cards, spare backplane and power supply. At one point I had two entire 4/470s (four chassis), and ended up gutting one set of chassis and dumping them, keeping the parts. Pictures & little bit of (old) info: http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Sun_4s/ There is only one stipulation/problem - the machine can ONLY be picked up during June of this year. Thanks; JP From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 12 18:02:36 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:02:36 GMT Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: John Willis "Re: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem" (Mar 12, 15:18) References: Message-ID: <10503130002.ZM4795@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 12 2005, 15:18, John Willis wrote: > Here's an update, for all who may be interested in it: > > The MicroVAX II now has the following configuration: > > A B C D > +-------------------------------------+ > | CPU | > +-------------------------------------+ > | Memory | > +-------------------------------------+ > | TQK50 | EMPTY | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DHV11 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | DRQ3 | > +-------------------------------------+ > | RQDX3 | EMPTY | > +-------------------------------------+ > > > I'm trying to get my hands on a DELQA or a DEQNA. Will > this require yet another re-shuffle of the cards, or can I > move the RQDX3 to the end and put the DELQA/DEQNA where > the RQDX3 is now? Common concensus is that a DELQA is better than a DEQNA -- more reliable and less prone to dropping/corrupting packets. In either case, though, you want it fairly high up the bus because it's not very happy waiting too long while other things get their interrupts or DMA requests serviced. Also I have a feeling that DEQNA support was dropped from VMS round about 5.something -- but I'm not a VMS expert, so I stand to be corrected by others (is the driver much different? The actual Ethernet part certainly is). I'd suggest you move the DHV11, DRQ3, and RQDX3 down a slot, and put your network card in the slot below the TQK50, with your grant card beside it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 18:21:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:21:49 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: References: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:18:47 -0700, John Willis wrote: > I'm trying to get my hands on a DELQA or a DEQNA. Will > this require yet another re-shuffle of the cards, or can I > move the RQDX3 to the end and put the DELQA/DEQNA where > the RQDX3 is now? You can physically put it there, but I'm not quite sure if it wants to be closer to the front or closer to the back. You could put it there and check performance... no timeouts means that its fine. I haven't had the pleasure of playing much with DEC Ethernet devices. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 12 19:12:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:12:40 -0500 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem References: <10503130002.ZM4795@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <16947.37768.924000.844246@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: Pete> .... Also I have a Pete> feeling that DEQNA support was dropped from VMS round about Pete> 5.something -- but I'm not a VMS expert, so I stand to be Pete> corrected by others (is the driver much different? The actual Pete> Ethernet part certainly is). Support was dropped because the device didn't work correctly, never did, and it became obvious it never would. paul From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Mar 12 20:35:54 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:35:54 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503100428.XAA4695310@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503100428.XAA4695310@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <4233A70A.1050606@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >Although these will work, I have found that for purposes of simplicity, >and maximizing the ability to boot a given disk on multiple >configurations, it is best to use the lower DU unit numbers for physical >drives, and the higher ones for logical mappings. > >So, for example, I would have >SET DU0 UNIT=0 PART=0 >SET DU1 UNIT=1 PART=0 >SET DU2 UNIT=2 PART=0 >SET DU3 UNIT=3 PART=0 >SET DU4 UNIT=0 PART=1 >SET DU5 UNIT=0 PART=2 > > Jerome Fine replies: The above works fine with an RD53. If you add a second RD53. then add: SET DU6: UNIT=1 PART=1 SET DU7: UNIT=1 PART=2 at which point the RX50 floppy is DU2: and DU3: I might add that a hardware boot on an MSCP drive can be done ONLY (well there are a few exceptions that very experienced RT-11 users have fun with) when: SET DUn: UNIT=n PART=0 which is why Megan and I suggest that the lower DU unit numbers be used for the same UNIT numbers with a PART=0. >When you use the 64-unit version of the driver, you're on your own...:-) > Megan, if you are reading this, might it be possible to expand the number of units to 128 or even 256? I seem to see at least one bit that is not being used and maybe even two bits. I know that naming would be a problem - what about: D00 -> D77: for the 128 unit device drivers, then add 8 more "hex" values to the last RAD50 character D08: -> D0F: ... D78: -> D7F: for the 256 unit device drivers, then add 16 more values to the last RAD50 character D0G: -> D0V: ... D7G: -> D7V: Since all the device names are RAD50, numbering is not really a problem. By keeping the middle character as an octal value, the PNAME2 table should still be happy. If anyone else has any comments, they would be VERY appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For 64 units, I run 3 Hitachi ESDI DK515-78 hard disk drives as: SET D00: -> D23: UNIT=0, PART=00 to 19 SET D30: -> D53: UNIT=1, PART=24 to 43 SET D60: -> D77: UNIT=2, PART=48 to 63 SET D54: -> D57: UNIT=2, PART=44 to 47 ASSIGN D80: D54: ASSIGN D81: D55: ASSIGN D82: D56: ASSIGN D83: D57: Sometimes I also use a 4th ESDI as temporary scratch in which case: SET D24: -> D27: UNIT=3, PART=20 to 23 ASSIGN D90: D24: ASSIGN D91: D25: ASSIGN D92: D26: ASSIGN D93: D27: NOTE that within the SET command values are in DECIMAL while the command SHOW DEVICE : DU displays the partition numbers in OCTAL. The device names may seem the be in OCTAL, but are always RAD50. THUS, the D8n: and D9n: can be used, but must be assigned to the actual device names. ALSO, while the standard distributed DEC code for DU.MAC and UM.MAC does not include a boot table EXCEPT for DU0: -> DU7:, I modified the boot code to allow all 64 devices to be software booted via DUP after RT-11 is running. Thus I must first do a hardware boot using DU0:, then I can boot any of the other RT-11 partitions which have a bootable set of files. I realize that not many RT-11 users even have this large a real hard disk drive, but if you run SIMH, then container files up to 64 RT-11 partitions are possible with most Windows and probably Linux as well. However, it is legal for hobby users of RT-11 to run only up to V05.03 of RT-11 under SIMH. And most hobby users will find that V05.03 of RT-11 is sufficient for almost all their needs. Versus the fact that later versions of RT-11 are legally available only with a legal license from DEC (prior to about 1994) or now Mentec at about $ US 900 for a Qbus license and $ US 1600 for a binary RT-11 distribution - assuming that Mentec will respond to any of your requests for information. Lately, they do not respond and I assume that at least the RT-11 DOC set for V05.06 is "out of print". Under the commercial version of E11, it is possible to concatenate container files or even use raw SCSI hard drives of any size. Finally, since I use a Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller, I am able to use a passive front panel which allows me to WRITE PROTECT UNITS 0, 1 and 2. I run that way 99.9% of the time and remove the WRITE PROTECT only when I have finished testing a new file which I want to save on the hard drive. I have lost a few files this way when I crashed during testing, but better that than not being able to boot the system the next day until I return to a very old backup. Usually I can arrange to save the file (to be tested) on the hard drive under a different name while the VM: disk has the test file with the real name and I am stepping through with a DEBUG program active. After a few hours or days of testing, the original file on the hard drive is replaced with the new temporary file (very easy if the temporary file is the same size - just overwrite using DUP) and delete the temporary file. After final testing, copy the new file to the backup partition and BINCOM everything again. If you are wondering how I use so many partitions, 99% of the time UNITs 1 and 2 are the backups for UNIT 0 (and are rarely powered up). This means that I can use BINCOM to check that each of corresponding partitions is identical. It also means that I can: BOOT D32: instead of D02: when I want to make changes to D02: which I am not positive can be done while D02: is the system device. After the changes, I again BOOT D02: and test. If everything checks out, I can: COPY/DEVICE D02: D32: to make a backup while I still have D62: in reserve for a bit longer. If you have any more questions, please ask. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Mar 12 20:36:55 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503100423.XAA4699784@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503100423.XAA4699784@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <4233A747.1070906@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >>So I imagine any device drive with the X at the end is the better one to >>use with the XM monitor? Or is it mandatory to use X device drivers in >>the XM monitor? >> >It is mandatory... the system knows to append an X to any two-character >device name > > Jerome Fine replies: Since Megan mentioned the monitors for V05.06, these ddX.SYS device drivers are also used with the RT11ZM. Note that both RT11XM and RT11ZM are known as mapped monitors. In addition, also starting with V05.06 (although I have never used them myself), RT11XB and RT11ZB are also mapped, if I understand the documentation correctly. I presume that these last two monitors also use the ddX.SYS device drivers. All the other monitors are unmapped and use the dd.SYS device drivers. >>So this brings up another question: I've noticed that I don't explicitly >>need to LOAD device drivers for the devices I want to use when I boot >>RT-11. In particular, I don't need to LOAD DD when I want to use the >>TU58 simulator. Are they found and loaded automatically when the OS >>boots, or...? >> >Most utilities and user applications know to .FETCH device drivers they >need in order to do their task. After they are done, the drivers are >.RELEAsed. If they are LOADed before the program is executed, a .FETCH >and .RELEA are no-ops. > > I would modify that to be almost all DEC utilities (probably ALL) include .Fetch and .Release calls. As for user applications, certainly the ones which are widely used will likely include the calls, but if you get an "Invalid device error" and the LOAD command fixes the problem, you can figure out the situation for yourself. One other minor point is that I seem to remember that system jobs are not allowed to perform .Fetch calls to the monitor. If a user uses VBGEXE to run a normal program as a system job, then all device handlers that are used must first be LOADed. >If they aren't loaded and aren't .FETCHed, then they simply are not in >memory. > > Which does not mean the device drivers are unavailable, simply not immediately ready. This means that with device drivers such as DU(X).SYS using the RQDX1 or RQDX2, it is best to use the LOAD command if repeated use is expected since there are many seconds of delay to initialize the controller. The RQDX3 is a bit faster. NOTE that I agree with everything the Megan stated, I was just adding a bit more detail. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Mar 12 16:12:01 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:12:01 +0000 Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: References: <47926.64.139.41.130.1110581620.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050313030832.ONVZ1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > The card is recognized by the software and it can somewhat read data from > the tapes, but it doesn't seem to be processing the data properly, or > something. I got it to work (kind of) once but the directory I pulled > from the tape had numerous errors in it and was basically corrupted. No, > it wasn't the tape, because I have a second exact card (same part number > on the big Motorola chip) and it works fine. > > There's a bunch of chips on this board (27) including a Z80, 2764, a bunch > of 74-series stuff, and a few customs AM stuff (PALs, masked ROM, etc.) Hi, Missed one, There is one toshiba memory IC (narrow one) next to this EPROM. I'd change this SRAM first. Did you do the finger check for thermals? I once fixed a ATI Wonder 800 this way, was a 74xxxx. One was just warmer than others. By the way, this type of PAL ICs tend to fail often and run hot. (MMI) Cheers, Wizard From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 12 21:09:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: MAKE Magazine premier issue rocks Message-ID: I just got today my copy of the new Make magazine and I cannot begin to describe how cool it is. It's like the Byte of the new millenium. Go out and buy a copy copies today so you can have one to sell on eBay in 20 years ;) Better yet, subscribe! http://make.oreilly.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 12 21:21:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:21:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got Videotrax card working Message-ID: In case anyone cares, I ended up getting working that Videotrax card I wrote about a day ago. What might be useful to know is that I followed Dwight's advice and re-seated the only socketed chip on the board (that customy Motorola chip). After doing this everything seems to be working peachy. I'm more than halfway through dumping another 10 megabytes of data from one of the VHS data tapes I have; so far so good. New maxim: when all else fails, re-seat. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From James at jdfogg.com Sat Mar 12 21:34:27 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:34:27 -0500 Subject: Got Videotrax card working Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D78@sbs.jdfogg.com> > In case anyone cares, I ended up getting working that > Videotrax card I wrote about a day ago. What might be useful > to know is that I followed Dwight's advice and re-seated the > only socketed chip on the board (that customy Motorola chip). > After doing this everything seems to be working peachy. I'm > more than halfway through dumping another 10 megabytes of > data from one of the VHS data tapes I have; so far so good. Long ago I had one of these brand new. I never got it to reliably restore. It might have been the quality of my tape deck or the tapes, but I gave up. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 12 21:56:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D78@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, James Fogg wrote: > > In case anyone cares, I ended up getting working that > > Videotrax card I wrote about a day ago. What might be useful > > to know is that I followed Dwight's advice and re-seated the > > only socketed chip on the board (that customy Motorola chip). > > After doing this everything seems to be working peachy. I'm > > more than halfway through dumping another 10 megabytes of > > data from one of the VHS data tapes I have; so far so good. > > Long ago I had one of these brand new. I never got it to reliably > restore. It might have been the quality of my tape deck or the tapes, > but I gave up. Interesting. Do you remember what computer system you ran it on? It can tend to be really finicky with regards to the speed of the processor. The latest software release (3.31) fixed the problem by allowing you to set the system you were running on (ranging from the original IBM PC through 386/20 and various oddities like a few PS/2 models and the TI Pro) and adapted certain timing loops (I guess) within the software to make everything work right. I tinkered a LOT, and I do mean a LOT, before I got everything working reliably. I had all sorts of problems with the software not recognizing the tape as a file structured backup vs. an image backup, not being able to read the directory, and (tonight) crashing when it lost sync with the blocks. Now I can pretty much dump tapes really well with a 386/33 and the AST 386/25 I'm currently working with. In fact, I just finished dumping another 10 megs of data (this with the card that previously wasn't working); it took 2 hours. I've come to realize that the system is actually rather robust. The quality of the deck and the tapes does make a difference, but my experience tells me that you would only have problems in terms of how many errors it gets when it's attempting to read a tape. I'm working with nearly 20 year old VHS tapes and they are reading really reliably. I'm also using the Videotrax VCR which has a special interface to connect to the interface card so the software can control the VCR remotely (I don't have this hooked-up yet because I need to make the connector cable). But any decent VCR works fine. My next task is trying the one full length interface card I have in a PC/XT, since so far it hasn't worked in anything else (486 all the way down to a 286). I'm pretty sure the card is hosed but I want to at least try it in an IBM XT (true 8-bit ISA architecture) before I write it off. Anyway, I'd really like to know more about your experience if you can remember any details. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From elf at ucsd.edu Sat Mar 12 22:10:42 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:10:42 -0800 Subject: ASCII Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050312200523.0226fca8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Scott Stevens wrote: > I believe hearing about (and seeing) a whole rendering > of Star Wars for ASCII. Unfortunately, I remember it > being 'released' as a MacroMedia Flash object. Telnet on over to towel.blinkenlights.nl and see Star Wars in all its ASCII glory. :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 12 21:59:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:59:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050312175500.0093e7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 12, 5 05:55:00 pm Message-ID: > I've been wondering, how similar is the printer in the 9845 to the one > in the 2671 and to the optional ones used in the HP-150 and the ones used > in the old HP terminals? The printers in the HP150 (original version, the 150-II doesn't have a built-in printer) and in the terminals is, I think, fairly similar to the 2671 (the number 2674 seems to ring a bell, but I can't remember why). Alas the technical manual for the HP150 doesn't include anything on the printer other than the pinout of the connector on the 'frontplane' (HP's term, not mione). The 9845 printer is totally different. For one thing the 9845 has a single row printhead the full width of the paper, the 2971 has a 1 dot wide printhead that moves back and forth. The 9845 printer electronics is also somewhat strange. It microsteps that stepper motor -- the board the printer actually plugs into (and which has one of the monitor connectors on top) is mostly the stepper motor driver and PSU. The warning about 'High Voltage Transients' on that PCB's heatsink applies even when the motor is not turning -- it's a sort of SMPSU, variable pulse width, to do the microstepping. The printhead is electrically a long shift register. There are 7 driver hybrids, each driving 80 print elements, linked end-to-end. If you have a 9845 printer it's worth slipping the printhead out (disconnect the earthing braid, unplug the cable, undo the 2 screws and locating cams), and then carefullly dismantling it. Put it down paper-side up (support it on the metalwork, not on the camacitors that sick out of the front face), undo the 6 screws (not all the same length), then lift off the rear block. You'll now see the 7 driver hybrids, carefully remove those, then the 35 zebra strips (2 lengths), the plastic frame. Disconnect the DIL plugs from the PCB (these carry the prinhead common wires), take out the PCB. It's a typical HP (of the time) build. Mechanically beautiful. > > > > >[1] I haev just finished figuring out the PSU. It's quite the most > >complicated one I have ever worked on. 2 main choppers (each with 2 > >transsitors in push-pull), 3 more switching regulators on the LV side, 5 > >chopper control ICs, overvoltage comparators on all outputs, Eeek. 17 ICs > >on the contorl board (including the PIC6xx choppers), 16 transistors on > >the main chopper board, and so on... > > Eeck! Why does HP always over complicate their PSUs! > I don;t know.... It has one good feature, though. Since the inputs to the chopper transistors are transformer-isolated (the little pot-core transformers on the chopper PCB), all the control circuitry is on the output sideo of the isolation harrier. This makes it a lot easier to work on, IMHO. BTW, there are 4 LEDs on the control board, visible through a slot in the cover. These should all be on -- they're connected to the +ve and -ve PSU control board supplies (I can't rememebr if before or after the 3-terminal regualtors) and one supply derrived from each main chopper. If either of the former are out (in which case the 2 choppers will also shut down), there;s a fuse on the PSU mainboard for them, a 3AG cartridge for the +ve rail, a picofuse for the -ve rail. If those supplies are OK and both choppers have shut down, then it's possible the protection cicuit, based round all 12 comparators in the LM339s on the control board, has triggered. > > > >> The Thinkjet is ok but it leaks and/or dries up (Usually both!) if you > > > >I have had a few 'normal' Thinkjets in for repair where leaking ink has > >corroded and ruined the flexiprint cable that goes from the carriage (and > >carries the contacts for the cartridge) to the main PCB. I have never > >found a way of repairing this PCB. > > The contacts are formed from little copper tits that seem to be lightly > glued to the cable and I've found that if you WIPE the contact area of the > cable that you will most likely wipe the contacts right off of it. If I > have to clean one I rinse it a LOT and GENTLY blot it. I've never had that problen. I have has the PCB tracks corrode and disapper (and you can't solder them....) > > > > > >On a 'normal' Thinkjet you can raid the part from any other Thinkjet, so > >you can, say, use a fairly useless RS232 one to fix an HPIL one, useful > >on the HP71, etc. > > Yeap. I've been hoarding ThinkJets for that very reason. I used to order Me too. > the flex cables for the standard ThinkJets for something like $7 and they > would deliver them overnight via FedEx! I haven't ordered one in years and > I'm told that they're out of them now. Yes. I have the Thinkjet service manual, the carriage/cable is a listed spare part (I don't think I ever mananged to get the cable on its own, even though it's not hard to unclip the bits of the carriage and slip a new cable in). AFAIK HP no longer have any parts for the Thinkjets, though. If you are taking the carriage out, make sure the ends of the drive wire don't come off that TX7 screw that goes into the bottom of the carriage. There's a plastic wasker to make sure this doesn't happen. HP say that you can't retrhead the cable, and have to replace the entire mechanical chassis if this happens. Well, you _can_ rethread it (Duh, I mean, it was assembled from separate parts originally), but it's a right pain to do. I had to do it when I had to remove the cable to repair the carriage feed gearbox in one of my TJs, but I don't wnat to do it again! > But although the Integral's Thinkjet is electrically > >the same, the mechanical layout is different, and the cables between the > >PCB and the mechanism are longer -- including this flexible PCB. > > Yeap, I've looked at both cables side by side and they're the same except > the IPC cable is about twice as long. I suppose that if you got desperate Ditto for the 2 stepper motors (which are electrically the same in the Integral as in the mains-powered Thinkjets, battery powered Thinkjets have different motors). The Integral's ones have longer leads. That's easier to kludge -- you can cut the wires off the old stepper and solder them to the wires from a stepper raided from a normal Thinkjet. Not that I've ever had to replace a stepper motor in a Thinkjet. -tony From James at jdfogg.com Sat Mar 12 22:14:41 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:14:41 -0500 Subject: Got Videotrax card working Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Anyway, I'd really like to know more about your experience if > you can remember any details. Well, it was a looong time ago. It was a short card with two RCA (phono) jacks as I recall. I had it installed in a Hyundai (yes, same as the car maker) 386/DX20. I seem to recall I'd get somewhere in the middle of the tape during a restore and it would fail. I don't remember the nature of the failure. I also seem to recall it corrupting restored files on my disk. There is a small chance that I still have it hiding in a box somewhere. It would be in the corner of the basement that I'm working my way toward cleaning. Perhaps I'll find it this spring. I'm not known for throwing stuff out ;-) Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. I expect a backup system to be completely trustworthy and until recently I haven't found any I'd trust that much. Maybe I shouldn't now, either - but I haven't been burned lately. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 12 22:19:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:19:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Parking heads on MFM hard drive Message-ID: How does one park the heads on an MFM hard drive when there's no park command available? I don't suppose the answer is to either create one or copy one to the hard drive? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Mar 12 17:35:26 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:35:26 +0000 Subject: Parking heads on MFM hard drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > How does one park the heads on an MFM hard drive when there's no park > command available? I don't suppose the answer is to either create one or > copy one to the hard drive? :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Manually parked by excuting a small program via floppy disk or copied to the hard drive. Very often supplied by IBM years ago and now you should able to find them on download sites. If you find one that has ASCII version that looks like big red switch flicked down from ON position, that's it. Also you could carefully park a HD by hand but that's risky. Cheers, Wizard From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 12 22:52:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:52:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, James Fogg wrote: > > Anyway, I'd really like to know more about your experience if > > you can remember any details. > > Well, it was a looong time ago. It was a short card with two RCA (phono) > jacks as I recall. I had it installed in a Hyundai (yes, same as the car That's the second generation card. > maker) 386/DX20. I seem to recall I'd get somewhere in the middle of the > tape during a restore and it would fail. I don't remember the nature of > the failure. I also seem to recall it corrupting restored files on my > disk. Do you mean the restored files were corrupted, or the restore program would corrupt files on the hard disk? The latter is possible if the restore aborted in the middle of the process. The restore over-writes whatever files are on the hard drive (if the name is the same). I don't think it would restore files that it cannot properly read from the tape. It does seem to have pretty good error detection (not correction though). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Mar 12 11:10:01 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:10:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <42328832.4000605@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 11, 2005 11:12:02 PM Message-ID: <200503121710.j2CHA1kM031256@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > >>> On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years >>>ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. >> >> >> What was your reasoning? > > Mostly compatibility. I do Unix training and network stuff for a living. Compatibility as far as network stuff? Most of the POSIX compliant Unix software should be able to be ported over, which is why I'm curious what specifically you needed. > > Also, BeOS software was still mostly commercial, and I was poor. > Yah, I Guess you had to wait for the OS to fail and fall in the hands of hobbyests before the non-commercial stuff came. Heh. > > Doc > Marty From edward at groenenberg.net Sat Mar 12 16:50:24 2005 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:50:24 +0100 Subject: My Data General Nova 4/x page, update References: <20050312135611.U682@localhost> Message-ID: <42337230.C86EB1A7@groenenberg.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > > I know it's not a crucial new announcement or anything, just an > update... > > Just fyi, I've reorged my Nova 4 website (http://wps.com/NOVA4/) a > bit. Took some of photos of internals, such as the disk drive > (when I re-cleaned the heads after 20 hours of operation -- > utterly spotless, whew!) last week. > > Changed are mainly organization, plus added photos, and a tiny bit > of software, including classic (sic) MORE. > > I've been an idiot about this Kermit program, I'm workign on it > now. It remains a nice machine. If I wouldn't be a DEC fan, I would also have choosen this type of machine. Ed -- edward at groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S, soon '05 GSX-R1000 From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 20:18:18 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:18:18 +0000 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:26:45 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: > > Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is not > > directly linked to a processor architecture. > Byte is 8 bits. In my networking courses at university we were always taught that 8 bits was called an octet, because the size of a byte varies between machines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte would seem to agree. Ed. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 13 01:07:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:07:28 -0600 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <200503121710.j2CHA1kM031256@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200503121710.j2CHA1kM031256@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <4233E6B0.1050309@mdrconsult.com> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >>Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: >> >> >>>> On a BeBox, it's Pretty Damn Fine. I tried it on a PC a few years >>>>ago, right after v5 came out, and decided Linux was a better choice there. >>> >>> >>>What was your reasoning? >> >> Mostly compatibility. I do Unix training and network stuff for a living. > > > Compatibility as far as network stuff? Most of the POSIX compliant Unix > software should be able to be ported over, which is why I'm curious what > specifically you needed. Mostly I needed test-bed capability for the Linux stuff we do, reliable presentation of remote X11 apps, and performance. On the hardware I had, BeOS seemed notably slower than Debian. >> Also, BeOS software was still mostly commercial, and I was poor. >> > > > Yah, I Guess you had to wait for the OS to fail and fall in the hands > of hobbyests before the non-commercial stuff came. Heh. Yeah. Now, of course, I have a bunch of commercial multimedia apps that came with my BeBox, plus the open-source stuff. At the time, circa v4.0, I think, it wasn't nearly that easy. Doc From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 13 02:27:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:27:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050312133958.I682@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> Message-ID: <20050313002622.S682@localhost> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > figlet does only this: > > tomj at fiche:~ echo foo | figlet > __ > / _| ___ ___ | |_ / _ \ / _ \ | _| (_) | (_) | > |_| \___/ \___/ HEY!! No, the @##%_) mailing list software did that!! Figlet does this: X __ X / _| ___ ___ X | |_ / _ \ / _ \ X | _| (_) | (_) | X |_| \___/ \___/ X's put in by me to protect the damned |'s. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 06:24:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:24:54 +0000 Subject: OT: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050313002622.S682@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <20050313002622.S682@localhost> Message-ID: <1110716694.9408.4.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-13 at 00:27 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > figlet does only this: > > > > tomj at fiche:~ echo foo | figlet > > __ > > / _| ___ ___ | |_ / _ \ / _ \ | _| (_) | (_) | > > |_| \___/ \___/ > > > HEY!! No, the @##%_) mailing list software did that!! Figlet does this: > > X __ > X / _| ___ ___ > X | |_ / _ \ / _ \ > X | _| (_) | (_) | > X |_| \___/ \___/ > > > X's put in by me to protect the damned |'s. Curious. On my client I saw the first line indented by two spaces, then the following three lines aligned to the left margin. Readable and still not the mess you obviously got, but still not right :) Version with the X's works fine... cheers J. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 06:42:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:42:04 -0500 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: References: <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:18 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:26:45 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is not >> > directly linked to a processor architecture. >> Byte is 8 bits. > >In my networking courses at university Where was that? we were always taught that 8 >bits was called an octet, I've heard that too but it was a LOOONG time ago. I can't even remembe where it or when it was. because the size of a byte varies between >machines. WORD sizes varies but a byte is now considered to be 8 bits. Joe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte would seem to agree. > >Ed. > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 08:18:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:18:22 +0000 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 18:00 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > I believe hearing about (and seeing) a whole rendering of Star Wars for > ASCII. I just discovered (by accident) that mplayer under Linux falls back to ASCII display in a shell window when playing movies if it can't open any graphical device. Very odd indeed. From stuart at zen.co.uk Sun Mar 13 08:19:39 2005 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (stu) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:19:39 -0000 Subject: lot's of CC stuff to clear (UK) References: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> Hi everyone, I visited a friend in Birmingham yesterday who has something of a collecting problem, resulting in 3 of the 4 four rooms of his house stacked floor to ceiling with old computer equipment. He would very much like to liberate his home, and I'm trying to help by listing some of the equipment here. The only catch is you'll need to collect fairly promptly if you're interested in anything. SGI power series 4D/70GT, a big and impressive beastie Collection of PETs, too many to list but representing pretty much the whole line up. Prime mini computer - just needs drives IBM AS400 - older machine, two heavy towers DEC bits: PDP 11/53 Microvaxen 2's in BA23 cabinets HP laserjet plus - old and still working, someone somewhere might want it? Apollo workstations - a number of machines and displays There is much more, buried away, so if you can collect any of the above be prepared to grab some more! Please drop me a line if you're interested. Cheers, Stu From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Mar 13 08:20:28 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:20:28 +0100 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050312163911.00a4eb50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0C99D058-93CB-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > IIRC the floppy drives in the IPC are subject to the usual HP >>DS<< > floppy disk problem. The grease on the mechanism dries out and the > mechanism doesn't open all the way and when the user tries to insert or > remove a disk it tears the top head off of the drive. Examine it > closely to > be sure that the mechanism opens COMPLETELY before using it. Or better > yet, > go ahead and remove the drive then clean off the old grease and relube > it > with a GOOD quality grease that won't harden (I use gun grease). Alarmed by this I went and had a closer look : yep, not only was the head ripped off, it is even nowhere to be seen. I had not yet inserted a disk myself, due to the problematic latch. Since I dont have the head, repair is impossible. Would have been problematic anyhow. Any source for replacements ? Apart from the obvious mechanical issues, could a PC DD drive be used instead ? Is there a builtin selftest for the printer ? So not ready yet ...and I knew I should have grabbed a HP9133 while I had the chance, 2 years ago. Jos From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 08:25:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:25:00 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050312175500.0093e7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313092500.00a52100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:59 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: > >BTW, there are 4 LEDs on the control board, visible through a slot in the >cover. These should all be on -- they're connected to the +ve and -ve PSU >control board supplies (I can't rememebr if before or after the >3-terminal regualtors) and one supply derrived from each main chopper. That's interesting! They're not mentioned in the service manual and they're not shown in the schematic. Are they visible without taking the IPC apart? I should take a close lot at mine and see if they have them. Joe If >either of the former are out (in which case the 2 choppers will also shut >down), there;s a fuse on the PSU mainboard for them, a 3AG cartridge for >the +ve rail, a picofuse for the -ve rail. If those supplies are OK and >both choppers have shut down, then it's possible the protection cicuit, >based round all 12 comparators in the LM339s on the control board, has >triggered. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 08:28:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:28:06 -0500 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > >Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. Joe I expect a >backup system to be completely trustworthy and until recently I haven't >found any I'd trust that much. Maybe I shouldn't now, either - but I >haven't been burned lately. > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 09:03:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:03:49 +0000 Subject: Nice article on floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110726229.9408.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-11 at 17:40 -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/pdfs/floppy.pdf Nice useful info there -thanks for posting :-) J. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 09:08:24 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <0C99D058-93CB-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3.0.6.32.20050312163911.00a4eb50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313100824.00a547f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:20 PM 3/13/05 +0100, you wrote: > >> >> IIRC the floppy drives in the IPC are subject to the usual HP >>DS<< >> floppy disk problem. The grease on the mechanism dries out and the >> mechanism doesn't open all the way and when the user tries to insert or >> remove a disk it tears the top head off of the drive. Examine it >> closely to >> be sure that the mechanism opens COMPLETELY before using it. Or better >> yet, >> go ahead and remove the drive then clean off the old grease and relube >> it >> with a GOOD quality grease that won't harden (I use gun grease). > >Alarmed by this I went and had a closer look : yep, not only was the >head ripped off, it is even nowhere to be seen. I had not yet inserted >a disk myself, due to the problematic latch. > >Since I dont have the head, repair is impossible. Would have been >problematic anyhow. > > Any source for replacements ? Sure, like Tony said the drive is basicly the same as any of the HP DS drives used in the HP 9122, 795x and many other HP-IB drives. I don't think any PC drives are close enough to work but the HP-IB stuff is one E-bay regularly if you can't find a local source. If you're lucky you can find a hard drive/floppy drive combo that has a bad HD and buy it CHEAP and rob it of the FD. >Apart from the obvious mechanical issues, could a PC DD drive be used >instead ? >Is there a builtin selftest for the printer ? There's some but I don't think it checks much other than making sure the head is at the home position. When you turn the IPC on it runs the head the right and then homes it. I think it only checks to see that it's at the home postion when it finishs. I don't think it even checks for a non-home position when it moves to the right. As far as checking for print head cable problems it does NOT check for anything. (Same for all the ThinkJets) The obvious symptom is one or more missing rows of print but that can also be due to a clogged print nozzle so you have to use a known good cartridge. Yes it's a PITA when all you have is a pile of cartridges in unknown condition and a pile of printers in unknown condition. A few years ago I was in that position and I just had to gather up a big pile of stuff and try various combinations till I found a working printer and a working cartridge. IIRC it took a full day of cleaning leaked ink, swapping stuff around, etc etc. Since then I DO NOT keep cartridges in the printers and I mark every printer as to weather the print head is good or not after I test it. You can check the cartridges some what by blowing into the hole on the back end of the cartridge. You should see ink dribling out of all nine(?) ports on the front of the cartridge. That's not an absolute check but it's a start. IN fact, HP advises youto blow into the cartridge to "prime" it before installing it in the printer. But wipe the excess ink off before installing it. BTW If you find a cartridge that continues to dribble for no reason, pitch it. You COULD use it for testing and immediately take it out of the printer but it's not worth the trouble, just get rid of it. Oh, a couple of pieces of good news. The cartridges come in sealed containers and they seem to store for a LONG time unopened so if you find any new sealed ones they're probably going to be good despite the age. I find that the military and military contractors discard them after a certain time but they're almost certainly still good. The other good news is the the printer mechanism was designed by Canon (and perhaps built by them) and it uses the same cartridges as the Canon Diconix printers so that gives you a second source of cartridges. > > So not ready yet ...and I knew I should have grabbed a HP9133 while I >had the chance, 2 years ago. I'll give you a couple of tips about buying HP-IB drives. First before you buy it plug it in with no controller connected if you can. Most of the HP drives have a built-in microprocessor and they run a self test. Let it run through the self test and make sure that it doesn't indicate a failure. Some drives have a FAULT light on the front. Some have a two digit display on the back that will show Px or Fx after it finishes. P means Pass and F means Fail. x should indicate the HP-IB select code that the drive is set for. If you're considering buying one off of E-bay have the seller try this before you buy. You don't need anything other than the drive so they have no excuse for not doing it. Also some (all?) HP-IB drives will park the heads after the selftest if there's no controller connected. So that in itself is a GOOD reason to do it. I found that in an obscure corner of one of the HP drive manuals and I don't know if it applies to all the drives but it's easy enough to do that I do it with all my drives before I buy or move them and anytime that I take one off a system for any reason. One more thing about floppy drives. HP made single sided, double sided and quad density drives. The one in the IPC is DS. The one is the 9121 is SS. I THINK the ones in the 913x and 915x are also SS so you can't use them in the IPC. The ones in the HP 795xs and 9122S and D are DS so you can use them for the IPC. The 9122C uses QD drives so you can't use those. I think one of the HD/FD combos also uses QD drives but I don't remember which one it was. However I have a book full of notes about the drives. If you find a drive that you might want to use in the IPC sent me the model and I'll tell you if it's SS, DS or QD. BTW where are you located? Joe > > Jos > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 13 09:50:48 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:50:48 +0000 Subject: lot's of CC stuff to clear (UK) In-Reply-To: <001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> References: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> <001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> Message-ID: <42346158.8050507@gjcp.net> stu wrote: > DEC bits: > PDP 11/53 > Microvaxen 2's in BA23 cabinets Interested. Might well be going to Birmingham at the beginning of May,too. Could you mail me off-list with more details please? Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 10:10:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:10:07 -0500 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > At 02:18 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: > >On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:26:45 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin > wrote: > >> Byte is 8 bits. > > > >In my networking courses at university we were always taught that 8 > >bits was called an octet, because the size of a byte varies between > >machines. In the TCP/IP world, that would most likely come from the terminology of the PDP-10 world (think back to the days of IMPs, etc.) On the -10, one stores 6 6-bit characters in a machine word, and one speaks of bytes that are 6 bits. AFAIK, 'octet' was invented in networking circles to prevent any ambiguity about which size byte one was discussing. Outside of PDP-10 and Cyber circles, "byte" has pretty much meant 8-bits, though. If one only worked on microcomputers (i.e., post 1974), the tug-of-war was over, and byte "always meant 8 bits". -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 13 10:25:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:25:00 +0000 Subject: lot's of CC stuff to clear (UK) In-Reply-To: <001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> References: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com> <001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> Message-ID: <1110731100.9392.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-13 at 14:19 +0000, stu wrote: > SGI power series 4D/70GT, a big and impressive beastie > Apollo workstations - a number of machines and displays (sent private reply already, but just to make it public...) Definitely interested in those for Bletchley museum, and willing to make the trip over there from Cambridge to pick those up myself I think (unless any kind soul happens to be doing a Birmingham -> Bletchley area run anyway :-) > Prime mini computer - just needs drives > PDP 11/53 Possibly interested in those, subject to being able to sort out transport. "Just needs drives" with the Pr1me hinges on what type of drives are needed and whether OS install media's available I suppose. Chances are good we'll have spare drives of the right type at Bletchley unless it's something horribly oddball (ST412 / SMD / SCSI and various others we *can* do) Without OS media to rebuild it, it's a bit of a boat-anchor, but even then might be worth us saving and hoping install media is unearthed by someone in the future... cheers Jules From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 13 10:31:52 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:31:52 -0800 Subject: DEC THZ02: Wottizzit? Message-ID: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, I've come across a DEC THZ02 external/stand-alone tape drive in a nice enclosure with what is labeled as a SCSI interface. It resembles DLT in terms of its cartridge style, but it doesn't look like any "normal" DLT drive I've come across before in that it has no manual density selection that I can find. Details? Also, if anyone wants it (I certainly don't need it), I would be happy to send it along for the stunning total of $10 plus shipping. Let me know... Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 13 10:23:43 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:23:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans> <001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200503131639.LAA01667@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since >>>> it is not directly linked to a processor architecture. >>> Byte is 8 bits. >> [I was taught 8 bits is an "octet"] because the size of a byte >> varies between machines. > WORD sizes varies but a byte is now considered to be 8 bits. Depends on whom you ask. In mainstream computing today, yes, a byte is 8 bits. But here, in classiccmp-land, we use - and discuss - a lot more equipment dating from the days when "byte" was much more variable. Much more so than is done in mainstream computing. So here, it's not unreasonable to use "octet" to mean an 8-bit datum and "byte" to mean something less well defined in general, depending on the architecture(s) under discussion. Now, in the original context - which was discussing how "1.44M" and "2.88M" floppies are schizoid about their definition of "M" (it's a product of a 1024 K and a 1000 K), is it reasonable to use byte=8bits? Personally, I'd say it is, since such floppies are 3.5" and thus recent enough that I doubt you'd find one on anything but an 8-bit-byte machine. (Of course, I'm sure this crowd could arrange to have one on a PDP-8 or some such, but the 1.44-megabyte and 2.88-megabyte names make no sense except for byte=8bits.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 13 10:49:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:49:11 -0600 Subject: lot's of CC stuff to clear (UK) References: <200503091926.LAA22358@clulw009.amd.com><001401c527d7$b1e71310$e100000a@dimension4700> <1110731100.9392.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000a01c527ec$95557ce0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... >> Prime mini computer - just needs drives >> PDP 11/53 I'd be VERY interested in this... possibly even willing to pay shipping across the pond! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 13 10:54:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:54:22 -0600 Subject: MAKE Magazine premier issue rocks References: Message-ID: <006001c527ed$4e8c30f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > I just got today my copy of the new Make magazine and I cannot begin to > describe how cool it is. I gotta agree, it's quite cool. A refreshing mag for these times. Although, I thought for a second since it was called "Make" and came from O'Reily, that it just MIGHT help me with my autoconf/libtool problems ;) Jay West From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Mar 13 11:13:34 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:13:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: MAKE Magazine premier issue rocks In-Reply-To: <006001c527ed$4e8c30f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <006001c527ed$4e8c30f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... >> I just got today my copy of the new Make magazine and I cannot begin to >> describe how cool it is. > > I gotta agree, it's quite cool. A refreshing mag for these times. Although, I > thought for a second since it was called "Make" and came from O'Reily, that > it just MIGHT help me with my autoconf/libtool problems ;) I just subbed. Between this and "Nuts and Volts" I'm probably going to be renedered homless from missing too much 'real' work... Cheers John From technobug at comcast.net Sun Mar 13 11:20:36 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:20:36 -0700 Subject: B&K PRECISION 540 COMPONENT TESTER Manual?? In-Reply-To: <200503130008.j2D08eSK065623@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503130008.j2D08eSK065623@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <095b3c776dd2fd3ca9039f303621bada@comcast.net> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:15:08 -0500 "Joe R." inquired: > I picked this up yesterday and got it working last night. Does > anyone > have a manual for it? It's a small Oscilliscope-like device that's > used > for testing transistors and the like. Oh yeah, I'm going to use it to > fix > my vintage equipment. > > Joe Push come to shove, you can get the manuals at probably for far more than you paid for the toy. CRC From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 13 11:22:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:22:24 -0600 Subject: Parking heads on MFM hard drive In-Reply-To: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <423476D0.9020408@oldskool.org> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > If you find one that has ASCII version that looks like big red switch > flicked down from ON position, that's it. Early versions of Spinrite also come with PARK.COM, which just moves the heads to their last cylinder. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 13 12:11:25 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:11:25 -0600 Subject: DEC THZ02: Wottizzit? References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> Were are you located? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:31 AM Subject: DEC THZ02: Wottizzit? > Hi, gang, > > I've come across a DEC THZ02 external/stand-alone tape drive in a nice > enclosure with what is labeled as a SCSI interface. It resembles DLT in > terms of its cartridge style, but it doesn't look like any "normal" DLT > drive I've come across before in that it has no manual density selection > that I can find. > > Details? Also, if anyone wants it (I certainly don't need it), I would be > happy to send it along for the stunning total of $10 plus shipping. > > Let me know... Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 12:20:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:20:12 -0500 Subject: Sunrise T-5000 IN-CIRCUIT BOARD PROGRAMMER?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313132012.00926640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bruce, I have two of these. Are you intersted in them? They're supposed to be some kind of hot shot programmer. I've been playing with them this morning. They're PC based and despite what the website says these have 286 CPUs and 512K of memory. They both power up. One says 8752 error and stops. The other had a keyboard error but I took the back off and plugged in a PC keyboard and got it running. The CMOS was dead so I reset the settings. Now it attempts to boot but says that it can't find a system. I don't know if they used different settings for the HD or if it's been erased. I tried to boot it from a floppy but my 3.5" boot floppy says that it needs at least a 386. I quit at that point. The drive settings may not be right, or the drive may be erased (and you may be able to unerase it) or you may be able to install the drive from the 2nd system (or fix it). Anyway they look like they may be something $pecail so I didn't want to pitch them if they are and you can use them. If you can use them we'll work out some kind of trade. But le me know ASAP since I don't have the space to keep them around for long. Joe Is anyone here familar with this programmer? It's about the size and layout of an old Kaypro portable computer. This is Sunrise Co. of Calfornia and not the Sunshine Co. of Taiwan that made a lot of the cheap PC based EPROM programmers. Brief description here .. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 12:35:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:35:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 Message-ID: Does anyone have a pinout for the Signetics 82S83 BCD full-adder chip (16 pin DIL package)? A google search didn't turn up anything useful that I could see. All I can find is a comment in the 74F583 data sheet (which I have) that said chip is functionally identical to the 82S83. But that doesn't necessarily mean the same pinout (although, of course, telling me that those 2 chips are the same pinout would be enough to let me get on). FWIW, this chip is used in the high-speed language processor option for the HP9845 (which is what I am currently working on), so it's on-topic here. -tony From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Mar 13 13:00:42 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:00:42 +0100 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Hi all. I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and here are the results. 55 listmembers have answered. The ages are distributed as follows : 15-19 : 2 (youngest member is only 16) 20-24 : 4 25-29 : 3 30-34 : 7 35-39 : 9 40-44 : 13 45-49 : 6 50-54 : 3 55-59 : 3 60-64 : 3 65-69 : 1 (oldest : 67) 70... : nil The biggest groups are 37 (6 members) and 42 (5 members) Half of the members are between 33 and 47 years old Not many "old farts", including myself (59) only 5. Nico From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 13 13:04:41 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050313110219.C682@localhost> >> I believe hearing about (and seeing) a whole rendering of Star Wars for >> ASCII. There's also AALIB, the 3D graphics system for (not kidding) monochrome MDA-type adapters. full motion graphics on 25x80 monochrome screens. If I recall correctly a bunch of eastern european kids with crappy hardware, a desire to play DOOM and no stupid adults around to tell them it was impossible. I've only seen the demo program. Run on DOS. LIttle docs. Probably hideous code, but would be nice for you HARDCORE types to implement :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:11:09 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:11:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Troubleshooting ATA Drives.. In-Reply-To: <000301c52701$c86303f0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050310153059.46996.qmail@web25010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><001701c525e5$145b8d90$0100a8c0@screamer> <64091.64.139.41.130.1110510036.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <000301c52701$c86303f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <33035.64.169.63.74.1110741069.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Bob Shannon wrote: > I've used (or attempted to use) ATA ZIP 100 meg disks on my HP 1000 > ATA disk controller (built on an 8052 platform). ATA ZIP drives are fairly rare; they only made them for about 18 months. The vast majority of IDE ZIP drives are ATAPI instead. ATAPI is essentially SCSI commands passed over an IDE transport; that's what IDE CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, and writers, and tape drives use. > ATA disks do indeed alter sector zero, in two different ways based on how > the 'Drive A:" jumper is set. I haven't seen that behavior on the ATAPI ZIP drives. I did see it on a few older ATA hard drives. I haven't seen it on recent ATA hard drives. > You can find some references to this on the web > in discussions of Linux drivers for these drives. I must not be Googling the right keywords (e.g. linux ata driver write sector 0), as I can't find anything. By the way, when I wrote: > I've used "IDE" (ATAPI) ZIP drives extensively on PDP-11 systems that was an oversimplifiation. The ZIP drive on the real PDP-11 is a SCSI ZIP, but there's an ATAPI ZIP in one of my Linux boxes running a PDP-11 simulator. The simulator is used to run the same OS as the real PDP-11, booted from the ZIP. I also 'dd' RT11 disk images to and from the ATAPI ZIP. It has never corrupted the first block. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:18:18 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques In-Reply-To: <002a01c52732$730ff1c0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <0ID9009QT4FP4Q@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <002a01c52732$730ff1c0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <33093.64.169.63.74.1110741498.squirrel@64.169.63.74> David wrote: > Considering that resistors might open, but rarely short...i would expect > this to actually be parallel.... Jim wrote: > No, the resistor is there to protect the engineer, not the equipment, > hence series. If they're in series, but one fails open, it's not going to be protecting either the engineer or the equipment. If you have two resistors in parallel, and one fails open, you'll still have some protection. If you're really worried about a resistor failing as a short (which I've only ever seen once), you could use four resistors, with two parallel pairs in series. Then any one resistor can fail either open or short, and you'll still have some protection. Eric From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Mar 13 13:21:16 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:21:16 +0100 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313100824.00a547f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <12226917-93F5-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > BTW where are you located? > > Zurich, Switzerland.... Meanwhile I verified the printer : out of luck again..... The cartridge seems ok, movement of printer is Ok, but no output. Time to measure the flexcable.... Jos Dreesen From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:29:25 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Parking heads on MFM hard drive In-Reply-To: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <33226.64.169.63.74.1110742165.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Wizard wrote: > Also you could carefully park a HD by hand but that's risky. I'm not sure exactly what you're recommending here. But if you're suggesting rotating the positioner by hand (on drives where it is exposed), do NOT do that! Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:36:58 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:36:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy?) In-Reply-To: References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan writes about bytes on the PDP-10: > On the -10, > one stores 6 6-bit characters in a machine word, and one speaks of > bytes that are 6 bits. Not necessarily. On the PDP-10, the byte size could be anywhere from zero (really!) to 36 bits. Seven bits was the most commonly used for general ASCII text, with one leftover bit per word. In fact, this was so common that the KS10 CPU has special dedicated hardware to make the 7-bit byte case more efficient than the other supported byte sizes. Six bits were used for "SIXBIT", the subset of ASCII without the control characters and lower case. SIXBIT was used for filenames and extensions, and other fairly limited purposes, but not for text processing. But many other byte sizes were routinely used on the PDP-10. Zero bit bytes were not commonly used, but had the advantage that you could store an infinite number of bytes in a single word. :-) > AFAIK, 'octet' was invented in networking circles > to prevent any ambiguity about which size byte one was discussing. Yes. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:49:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:49:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33331.64.169.63.74.1110743353.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tony wrote: > Does anyone have a pinout for the Signetics 82S83 BCD full-adder chip (16 > pin DIL package)? A google search didn't turn up anything useful that I > could see. Happened to have the relevant data book less than three feet from where I'm sitting. ------ ------ B2 | 1 u 16 | Vcc B4 | 2 15 | A4 B8 | 3 14 | A2 A8 | 4 13 | A1 Cin | 5 12 | B1 Cout | 6 11 | S1 S4 | 7 10 | S2 GND | 8 9 | S8 ------------- Max prop delay from An, Bn, Cin to Sn is 35 ns. Max prop delay from An, Bn to Cout is 40 ns. Max prop delay from Cin to Cout is 25 ns. Although the pinout wouldn't match, in a pinch you could replace an 82S83 with a suitably pogrammed 512*8 25ns PROM. The 82S82 is similar but can also subtract, has an A=B output, and has G and P outputs for lookahead carry. It's in a 24-pin package. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 13:49:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:49:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33331.64.169.63.74.1110743353.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tony wrote: > Does anyone have a pinout for the Signetics 82S83 BCD full-adder chip (16 > pin DIL package)? A google search didn't turn up anything useful that I > could see. Happened to have the relevant data book less than three feet from where I'm sitting. ------ ------ B2 | 1 u 16 | Vcc B4 | 2 15 | A4 B8 | 3 14 | A2 A8 | 4 13 | A1 Cin | 5 12 | B1 Cout | 6 11 | S1 S4 | 7 10 | S2 GND | 8 9 | S8 ------------- Max prop delay from An, Bn, Cin to Sn is 35 ns. Max prop delay from An, Bn to Cout is 40 ns. Max prop delay from Cin to Cout is 25 ns. Although the pinout wouldn't match, in a pinch you could replace an 82S83 with a suitably pogrammed 512*8 25ns PROM. The 82S82 is similar but can also subtract, has an A=B output, and has G and P outputs for lookahead carry. It's in a 24-pin package. Eric From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 13 13:59:57 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:59:57 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > Hi all. > > I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and here > are the results. Did you calculate the ages of those of us who did not directly express them? Gordon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 13 15:05:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:05:17 GMT Subject: Age In-Reply-To: "Nico de Jong" "Age" (Mar 13, 20:00) References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 13 2005, 20:00, Nico de Jong wrote: > 55 listmembers have answered. I was going to send a reply, but it got a bit long, and the gremlins ate it while I left it lying around to be edited. +1 to the "50-54" category. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Mar 13 15:40:18 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:40:18 -0000 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques References: <0ID9009QT4FP4Q@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><002a01c52732$730ff1c0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> <33093.64.169.63.74.1110741498.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <009601c52815$422878a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Eric Smith" > David wrote: > > Considering that resistors might open, but rarely short...i would expect > > this to actually be parallel.... > > Jim wrote: > > No, the resistor is there to protect the engineer, not the equipment, > > hence series. > > If they're in series, but one fails open, it's not going to be protecting > either the engineer or the equipment. > But the engineer is protected by an open resistor - there is no path to ground for a potentially fatal shock form the mains. The risk of static damage is always secondary to the risk of a fatality. Remeber, the worst case shock is one where the current passes through the heart, which is a huge risk if one hand is connected directly to ground by a short circuit......... Jim. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Mar 13 17:04:01 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:04:01 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200503132304.j2DN42Hx078764@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > Sent: 12 March 2005 21:12 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem > > Whether you need to cut stuff or not depends on what lives where. > If you have a board in the following CD slot and you do not > remove the jumper or perform the appropriate surgery, then > you will be feeding signals to that board which may upset it. > > If the adjacent CD slot is empty, then I don't think you need > worry about anything. This is perhaps why I've not nuked anything else on our test VAXen when I've been sorting out RA7x disks with an un-modded KDA50. It was only last week that I discovered I'm supposed to remove the 2 grant 'jumpers' before installing in a Q22/CD backplane. Fortunately it seems like I've not nuked the card that was downstream of the KDA50 in this case :) cheers a/w From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 17:10:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:10:23 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313181023.00881700@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:05 PM 3/13/05 +0000, Pete wrote: >On Mar 13 2005, 20:00, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> 55 listmembers have answered. > >I was going to send a reply, but it got a bit long, and the gremlins >ate it while I left it lying around to be edited. +1 to the "50-54" >category. Same here. I started a reply but it got too long so I gave up. Maybe this age group should win a prize for laziness :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 17:06:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:06:02 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <12226917-93F5-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3.0.6.32.20050313100824.00a547f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313180602.00a3bc30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:21 PM 3/13/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> BTW where are you located? >> >> >Zurich, Switzerland.... Tell you what I'll do. I just picked up some more HP floppy disk drives. I haven't cleaned or tested them and haven't even done more than just glance at them but I think there's a 9122D in the pile. But if you want to fool with one I'll send it to you for the cost of shipping. They were surplused and dropped in the sand so there's probably some sand in them. You'll need to open it up and get out any sand AND while you're at it you should clean the old grease out of the drive and relubricate it. If I were you I'd test them in the 9122 drive. Once you know that one or both are working you can use them externally or pull one out and then install it in the IPC. I think I have a package on new cartridges, I'll throw one of them in too. > >Meanwhile I verified the printer : out of luck again..... >The cartridge seems ok, movement of printer is Ok, but no output. Time >to measure the flexcable.... If you have NO printed output then I'd guess that the cartridge is bad. I've never seen a cable bad on all nine channels. Joe > > Jos Dreesen > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 13 17:14:31 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:14:31 +0000 Subject: Proper Grounding Techniques In-Reply-To: <009601c52815$422878a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <0ID9009QT4FP4Q@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><002a01c52732$730ff1c0$0300a8c0@ntlworld.com> <33093.64.169.63.74.1110741498.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <009601c52815$422878a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4234C957.2000609@gjcp.net> Jim Beacon wrote: > > But the engineer is protected by an open resistor - there is no path to > ground for a potentially fatal shock form the mains. The risk of static > damage is always secondary to the risk of a fatality. Remeber, the worst > case shock is one where the current passes through the heart, which is a > huge risk if one hand is connected directly to ground by a short > circuit......... And the static will probably leak away through the body of the resistor *anyway*. Gordon. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 17:09:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:09:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313100824.00a547f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 13, 5 10:08:24 am Message-ID: > There's some but I don't think it checks much other than making sure the > head is at the home position. When you turn the IPC on it runs the head the > right and then homes it. I think it only checks to see that it's at the > home postion when it finishs. I don't think it even checks for a non-home > position when it moves to the right. As far as checking for print head I am pretty sure it does. It moves the head to the right until it gets a non-home position (and then a bit more), then restores to the home postion. If the home sensor is playing up, the head will bang into the side of the printer chassis (my first Thinkjet had a defective comparator chip in the home sensor circuit, and did just that before I fixed it). > cable problems it does NOT check for anything. (Same for all the ThinkJets) > The obvious symptom is one or more missing rows of print but that can also > be due to a clogged print nozzle so you have to use a known good cartridge. The easiest test (assuming you can find the common connection on the cable, which IIRC is pretty obvious) is to check the resistance between the common connection and each of the others in turn with the cable disconnected from the logic board and a cartridge fitted. It's very unusual for the print cartridge elements to fail, so if you get an 'open' at the logic board end, it's likely to be the cable, alas. Of course you can test the cartridge by checking for continuity between the contacts on the catridge face. > they're almost certainly still good. The other good news is the the > printer mechanism was designed by Canon (and perhaps built by them) and it > uses the same cartridges as the Canon Diconix printers so that gives you a > second source of cartridges. I thought that the Diconsix printers were Kodak, not Canon. The Thinkjet electroncis (which is different to the DIconix electronics) is very much HP -- the processor chip has a HOIL port built-in, it uses the Saturn bus to talk to the RAM and font ROM (although I am sure the CPU is not a Saturn), and so on. I was under the impression, probably from HP journal, that the cartrige was very much an HP invention. But maybe not. > One more thing about floppy drives. HP made single sided, double sided > and quad density drives. The one in the IPC is DS. The one is the 9121 is > SS. I THINK the ones in the 913x and 915x are also SS so you can't use them The 9133H is certainly a DS drive (I use them). The 9153 uses a rather different drive. It's still 600rpm, it's still a DS DD drive, it's still Sony, but it's the later design with a 34 pin power/data cable and many parts also used in the Mac 800K drive (!). It's the same drive unit in the 9114B. It would be _possible_, I think, to get that later drive in place of the older one. But you'd have mechanical problems (at least in the Integral, where the drive had no faceplate, the eject button slots into the front of the machine itself), you'd have to make up a special cable. The older drives are not that rare, it's probably worth finding one. Remember you can use one with a defective logic board or spindle motor. All you need is the head assembly. THere are 2 logic boards used (IIRC FC9 and FC16), they're basically interchangealbe, but you might want to keep the one that was in the IPC originally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 13:38:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:38:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <0C99D058-93CB-11D9-A21E-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Mar 13, 5 03:20:28 pm Message-ID: > Alarmed by this I went and had a closer look : yep, not only was the > head ripped off, it is even nowhere to be seen. I had not yet inserted > a disk myself, due to the problematic latch. Argh!. It happens. alas. > > Since I dont have the head, repair is impossible. Would have been > problematic anyhow. You'll never nanage to re-attach an 'down' head and get it aligned properly. Not even with an alignment disk. You can swap the complete head carriage assembly without too many problems. You are supposed to do an alignemt if you replace the heads (obviously). Perhaps I was lucky, but when I swapped a head assembly from a drive with othe rfaults into the one with the ripped-off down head and put the CE disk in, it was well within the alignment tolerance. > > Any source for replacements ? I doubt very much if Sony still sell heads for these drives. You'd be better off looking for a complete drive with other faults (make sure the down head has not been ripped off due to dried-up grease, that is by far the most common problem). These drives were used in a number of HP products at that time (9122, 9123, 9114A, 9133, etc) > Apart from the obvious mechanical issues, could a PC DD drive be used > instead ? Not witout a lot of modifications. The Sony drives rotate at 600 rpm (twice the speed of PC drives), so the data rate is twice that of a normal DD drive. You might be able to replace components round the disk controller chip (as I said, HPCC can supply a schematic) and get it to work, but it won't be trivial > Is there a builtin selftest for the printer ? It's a nomal Thinkjet AFAIK. Which means there is a selftest got by powering up with one of the buttons held down. But I forget just which one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 13:40:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:40:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313092500.00a52100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 13, 5 09:25:00 am Message-ID: > > At 03:59 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: > > > >BTW, there are 4 LEDs on the control board, visible through a slot in the > >cover. These should all be on -- they're connected to the +ve and -ve PSU > >control board supplies (I can't rememebr if before or after the > >3-terminal regualtors) and one supply derrived from each main chopper. > > That's interesting! They're not mentioned in the service manual and > they're not shown in the schematic. Are they visible without taking the IPC > apart? I should take a close lot at mine and see if they have them. Sorry, I am talking about the 9845 PSU here, not the Integral (it sort of topic-drifted). In the 9845, the LEDs are visible on top of the PSU casing with the top cover of the machine removed. There are no LEDs on the Integral PSU. The Integral PSU is a very conventional SMPUS, actually. The only odd feature is that triac to blow the fuse if you connect it to 230V mains when set to 115V. -tony From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Mar 13 17:29:09 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:29:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 13 2005, 20:00, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> 55 listmembers have answered. > > I was going to send a reply, but it got a bit long, and the gremlins > ate it while I left it lying around to be edited. +1 to the "50-54" > category. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > +1 more to 50 --> 54 Peter Wallace From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 17:32:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:32:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Diconix (was: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050313152955.M21563@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > they're almost certainly still good. The other good news is the the > > printer mechanism was designed by Canon (and perhaps built by them) and it > > uses the same cartridges as the Canon Diconix printers so that gives you a > > second source of cartridges. > I thought that the Diconsix printers were Kodak, not Canon. The Thinkjet The Diconix printer had a cute design, with its batteries inside the platen. Originally, it was NOT Kodak; Kodak bought Diconix later. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Mar 13 17:36:24 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:36:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP Integral : running ! (HP 2671 manual) Message-ID: <20050313233624.64C753BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> The manual is at: http://www.series80.org/Manuals/HP2671-ThermalPrinter.pdf **vp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 17:39:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:39:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313180602.00a3bc30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 13, 5 06:06:02 pm Message-ID: > Tell you what I'll do. I just picked up some more HP floppy disk > drives. I haven't cleaned or tested them and haven't even done more than > just glance at them but I think there's a 9122D in the pile. But if you > want to fool with one I'll send it to you for the cost of shipping. They > were surplused and dropped in the sand so there's probably some sand in > them. You'll need to open it up and get out any sand AND while you're at it > you should clean the old grease out of the drive and relubricate it. If I I would strongly recomend stripping the drive right down, cleaning it and relubricating it. Sand will do untold damage to bearings, etc. The basic sequence is : Remove top cover Remove logic board (and screening cover) Rmeove faceplate and eject button Remove eject damper Remvoe head load solenoid assembly Rmeove disk holder assembly (this is the bit you need to strip and clean the geease off) Remove disk-inserted and write-protect sensor feelers and springs Remvoe spindle motor assembly Remove head cable clamp (under the chassis) Remvoe the head slide rail clamps, slide out the rail, slip out the head assembly You do _not_ need to do a re-alingment after doing all that. Just don't touch the steppr motor itself. It's possible to take the spindle motor apart and get to the bearings. To do this, desolder the pins of the FG (frequency generator coil) flexiprint from the PCB), bend up the tabs, and take off the top part of the motor (with the FG flexiprint). Lift out the rotor. If you need to remove the bearings, you need to turn a stepped drift (IIRC the spindle diamteri s 4mm), then tap the broze bush upwards from the bottom of the motor, and keep on tapping to get it, and the ball race, out. After tapping the back in again, run a 4mm reamer (check this) through the broze bush. If you have any problems, ask me. I've done a lot of repairs. > were you I'd test them in the 9122 drive. Once you know that one or both Personally, I'd move the head assembly across, but then I like to keep as many original parts in my classics as possible. > are working you can use them externally or pull one out and then install it > in the IPC. I think I have a package on new cartridges, I'll throw one of > them in too. > > > > >Meanwhile I verified the printer : out of luck again..... > >The cartridge seems ok, movement of printer is Ok, but no output. Time > >to measure the flexcable.... > > If you have NO printed output then I'd guess that the cartridge is bad. > I've never seen a cable bad on all nine channels. I have. That last Thinkjet I had in for repair, I had to return as unrepairable :-(. The flexiprint was open, not only on all 12 signal wires but also on the common wire. _Every_ contact to the catridge was dead. There's also a little switiching converter on the Logic B PCB in the Integral to get the printhead voltage. Maybe that's not running, or you have a driver problem. If you need schematics, Dave Colver certainly has them... -tony From willisjo at zianet.com Sun Mar 13 17:54:20 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:54:20 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: +1 to the 20-24 category From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 13 17:46:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:46:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 In-Reply-To: <33331.64.169.63.74.1110743353.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 13, 5 11:49:13 am Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > Does anyone have a pinout for the Signetics 82S83 BCD full-adder chip (16 > > pin DIL package)? A google search didn't turn up anything useful that I > > could see. > > Happened to have the relevant data book less than three feet from where > I'm sitting. Thanks > > ------ ------ > B2 | 1 u 16 | Vcc > B4 | 2 15 | A4 > B8 | 3 14 | A2 > A8 | 4 13 | A1 > Cin | 5 12 | B1 > Cout | 6 11 | S1 > S4 | 7 10 | S2 > GND | 8 9 | S8 > ------------- Assuming you've numbered the pins with their bit-values rather than the bit-number (which is what is done in the 74F583 data sheet), then the pinout _is_ the same as the 74F583, altough the latter is much faster. I am not suprised. I had already found what looked like a carry chain linking pin 6 on one chip to pin 5 on the next... [...] > The 82S82 is similar but can also subtract, has an A=B output, > and has G and P outputs for lookahead carry. It's in a 24-pin > package. Sounds similar to the 74F582. Maybe even the same pinout Thanks again for the data -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 18:11:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 In-Reply-To: References: <33331.64.169.63.74.1110743353.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 13, 5 11:49:13 am Message-ID: <34090.64.169.63.74.1110759066.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tony wrote: > Assuming you've numbered the pins with their bit-values rather than the > bit-number (which is what is done in the 74F583 data sheet), then the That's how they did it in the 82S83 data sheet. Looks like the 74LS583 and 74F583 were designed to replace it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 13 18:11:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted : Pinout of 82S83 In-Reply-To: References: <33331.64.169.63.74.1110743353.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 13, 5 11:49:13 am Message-ID: <34090.64.169.63.74.1110759066.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tony wrote: > Assuming you've numbered the pins with their bit-values rather than the > bit-number (which is what is done in the 74F583 data sheet), then the That's how they did it in the 82S83 data sheet. Looks like the 74LS583 and 74F583 were designed to replace it. Eric From mbg at TheWorld.com Sun Mar 13 10:49:34 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:49:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem References: <008601c52748$12cbc580$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200503131649.LAA4964131@shell.TheWorld.com> >> I'm trying to get my hands on a DELQA or a DEQNA. Will >> this require yet another re-shuffle of the cards, or can I >> move the RQDX3 to the end and put the DELQA/DEQNA where >> the RQDX3 is now? > >You can physically put it there, but I'm not quite sure if it wants to >be closer to the front or closer to the back. You could put it there >and check performance... no timeouts means that its fine. I haven't >had the pleasure of playing much with DEC Ethernet devices. I know it isn't per the configuration specs, but I always have any ethernet adapter right after the processor/memory, then the default system disk adapter (typically an RQDX3 on my machines). I figure I want the ethernet adapter as close, electrically, as possible to the processor/memory to maximize throughput (those nanoseconds do add up ... :-) and the same for the system disk interface. I've never done any tests to see if there is actually a noticable difference. Maybe one of these days... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Sun Mar 13 11:16:51 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503100423.XAA4699784@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <200503131716.MAA4989740@shell.TheWorld.com> >>It is mandatory... the system knows to append an X to any two-character >>device name For casual users of RT, this is the rule. For more experienced users, there is a way of changing the 'X' to some other character. So, you could have dd.SYS, for SB and FB, ddX.SYS for XB, XM, ddZ.SYS for ZB and ZM, or some other mapping... It is not trivial, as many drivers have the 'X' built in, but it is possible. >Since Megan mentioned the monitors for V05.06, these ddX.SYS >device drivers are also used with the RT11ZM. Note that both >RT11XM and RT11ZM are known as mapped monitors. In addition, >also starting with V05.06 (although I have never used them myself), >RT11XB and RT11ZB are also mapped, if I understand the >documentation correctly. I presume that these last two monitors >also use the ddX.SYS device drivers. >All the other monitors are unmapped and use the dd.SYS device drivers. Right... >One other minor point is that I seem to remember that system jobs >are not allowed to perform .Fetch calls to the monitor. If a user >uses VBGEXE to run a normal program as a system job, then all >device handlers that are used must first be LOADed. Good point... that is true. But it is possible for system and foreground jobs to fetch handlers if certain steps are taken and if the program is designed a certain way... but it is not for the faint of heart. I believe I used the technique in my RTEFTP program... I'll have to check on the specifics. >>If they aren't loaded and aren't .FETCHed, then they simply are not in >>memory. >Which does not mean the device drivers are unavailable, >simply not immediately ready. This means that with Thanks... good point. >device drivers such as DU(X).SYS using the RQDX1 or >RQDX2, it is best to use the LOAD command if repeated >use is expected since there are many seconds of delay >to initialize the controller. The RQDX3 is a bit faster. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 07:04:04 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:04:04 +0000 Subject: 2.8M 3.5" floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:42:04 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > At 02:18 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: > >On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:26:45 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin > wrote: > >> > Except that the size of a byte is undefined on a diskette, since it is > not > >> > directly linked to a processor architecture. > >> Byte is 8 bits. > > > >In my networking courses at university > > Where was that? Britain. Maybe it's different over here... > we were always taught that 8 > >bits was called an octet, > > I've heard that too but it was a LOOONG time ago. I can't even remembe > where it or when it was. Well, the chap who taught that course was a venerable network coder, and I think he'd been there for as long as the department itself had. > because the size of a byte varies between > >machines. > > WORD sizes varies but a byte is now considered to be 8 bits. Ah, my mistake then. *scribbles in mental notes* From cctech-post at desktopint.com Sun Mar 13 16:33:14 2005 From: cctech-post at desktopint.com (CCtech) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:33:14 -0500 Subject: DEC THZ02: Wottizzit? Message-ID: >From DEC's price list 1997: -THZ02-AA 6GBF Cipher tape drive sgl en -THZ02-AB 6GBF Cipher tape drive differ -THZ02-AC THZ02-AA in tabletop enclosur -THZ02-AD THZ02-AB in tabletop enclosur -THZ02-AE 6GB Cipher tape drive interna -THZ02-AF 6GB Cipher tape drive differe -THZ02-AG THZ02-AE in tabletop enclosur -THZ02-AH THZ02-AF in tabletop enclosur -THZ02-BA 6GB TT tape dr,SCSI OEM USD -THZ02-BC 6GB emb tape dr,SCSI OEM Phil St.Sauveur Desktop Integration Inc. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bruce Lane Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 11:32 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC THZ02: Wottizzit? Hi, gang, I've come across a DEC THZ02 external/stand-alone tape drive in a nice enclosure with what is labeled as a SCSI interface. It resembles DLT in terms of its cartridge style, but it doesn't look like any "normal" DLT drive I've come across before in that it has no manual density selection that I can find. Details? Also, if anyone wants it (I certainly don't need it), I would be happy to send it along for the stunning total of $10 plus shipping. Let me know... Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From martinm at allwest.net Sun Mar 13 19:00:47 2005 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:00:47 -0700 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4234E23F.9080404@allwest.net> +1 to 55-59 Martin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 13 19:04:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:04:33 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4234E321.70407@jetnet.ab.ca> John Willis wrote: >+1 to the 20-24 category > > Well my birthday is coming up ... -1 to the old category +1 to the new one. :) Ben From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 19:11:36 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:11:36 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050313092500.00a52100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313201136.00924c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:40 PM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: >> >> At 03:59 AM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: >> > >> >BTW, there are 4 LEDs on the control board, visible through a slot in the >> >cover. These should all be on -- they're connected to the +ve and -ve PSU >> >control board supplies (I can't rememebr if before or after the >> >3-terminal regualtors) and one supply derrived from each main chopper. >> >> That's interesting! They're not mentioned in the service manual and >> they're not shown in the schematic. Are they visible without taking the IPC >> apart? I should take a close lot at mine and see if they have them. > >Sorry, I am talking about the 9845 PSU here, not the Integral (it sort of >topic-drifted). In the 9845, the LEDs are visible on top of the PSU >casing with the top cover of the machine removed. Ah! OK now I'm following you. Yes the 9845 PSU is a BEAST! I've worked on a couple of them. I got lucky with my first one. The wires on the large heavy inductor had sheared off at the PCB board so it wasn't hard to fix. I'm still not sure how they (UPS) managed to mishandle it and cause the wires to shear but not do any other damage. > >There are no LEDs on the Integral PSU. The Integral PSU is a very >conventional SMPUS, actually. The only odd feature is that triac to blow >the fuse if you connect it to 230V mains when set to 115V. I saw that but wasn't sure what it was for. That's carrying protection to extreme. BTW Tony, if you don't object I'm going to save all these messages and see about putting together a FAQ page for the IPC. I've been thinking of putting up an IPC webpage for some time but haven't gotten around to it. Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 19:04:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:04:55 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050313100824.00a547f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313200455.00924a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:09 PM 3/13/05 +0000, you wrote: >> There's some but I don't think it checks much other than making sure the >> head is at the home position. When you turn the IPC on it runs the head the >> right and then homes it. I think it only checks to see that it's at the >> home postion when it finishs. I don't think it even checks for a non-home >> position when it moves to the right. As far as checking for print head > >I am pretty sure it does. It moves the head to the right until it gets a >non-home position (and then a bit more), then restores to the home >postion. If the home sensor is playing up, the head will bang into the >side of the printer chassis (my first Thinkjet had a defective comparator >chip in the home sensor circuit, and did just that before I fixed it). > >> cable problems it does NOT check for anything. (Same for all the ThinkJets) >> The obvious symptom is one or more missing rows of print but that can also >> be due to a clogged print nozzle so you have to use a known good cartridge. > >The easiest test (assuming you can find the common connection on the >cable, which IIRC is pretty obvious) is to check the resistance between >the common connection and each of the others in turn with the cable >disconnected from the logic board and a cartridge fitted. It's very >unusual for the print cartridge elements to fail, so if you get an >'open' at the logic board end, it's likely to be the cable, alas. Of >course you can test the cartridge by checking for continuity between the >contacts on the catridge face. > >> they're almost certainly still good. The other good news is the the >> printer mechanism was designed by Canon (and perhaps built by them) and it >> uses the same cartridges as the Canon Diconix printers so that gives you a >> second source of cartridges. > > >I thought that the Diconsix printers were Kodak, not Canon. You're right. That was a brain fart. The Thinkjet >electroncis (which is different to the DIconix electronics) is very much >HP -- the processor chip has a HOIL port built-in, it uses the Saturn bus >to talk to the RAM and font ROM (although I am sure the CPU is not a >Saturn), and so on. > >I was under the impression, probably from HP journal, that the cartrige >was very much an HP invention. But maybe not. > >> One more thing about floppy drives. HP made single sided, double sided >> and quad density drives. The one in the IPC is DS. The one is the 9121 is >> SS. I THINK the ones in the 913x and 915x are also SS so you can't use them > >The 9133H is certainly a DS drive (I use them). The 9153 uses a rather >different drive. OK I wasn't sure. It's been a while since I played with any of them and I know some are SS and some are DS. I think there's one or two combo drives tht have QD floppies but I don't remember which ones. FWIW the QD drives are easy to recognize since they have a BIG eject button and it's located in the center. It's still 600rpm, it's still a DS DD drive, it's still >Sony, but it's the later design with a 34 pin power/data cable and many >parts also used in the Mac 800K drive (!). It's the same drive unit in >the 9114B. > >It would be _possible_, I think, to get that later drive in place of the >older one. But you'd have mechanical problems (at least in the Integral, >where the drive had no faceplate, the eject button slots into the front >of the machine itself), you'd have to make up a special cable. The older >drives are not that rare, it's probably worth finding one. HP 9122Ds and Ss are a good source. They seem to be common and are inexpensive and you get TWO drives to play with. Joe > >Remember you can use one with a defective logic board or spindle motor. >All you need is the head assembly. THere are 2 logic boards used (IIRC >FC9 and FC16), they're basically interchangealbe, but you might want to >keep the one that was in the IPC originally. > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 13 19:14:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:14:47 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! (HP 2671 manual) In-Reply-To: <20050313233624.64C753BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050313201447.00924ec0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Cool! Thanks. BTW there are TWO 2671s on E-bay right now. Both are overpriced IMO but YMMV. Joe At 06:36 PM 3/13/05 -0500, you wrote: >The manual is at: > http://www.series80.org/Manuals/HP2671-ThermalPrinter.pdf > >**vp > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Mar 13 19:21:05 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:21:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Burroughs L7000 Magnetic System - What is it? Message-ID: <20050314012105.43776.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Sheesh, I've been offered a Burroughs L7000, but I don't even know what it is. Any hints? http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/L7000.jpg Steve. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Mar 13 19:21:59 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:21:59 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050313202105.01e30648@mail.itm-inst.com> At 06:29 PM 3/13/2005, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >+1 more to 50 --> 54 OK, I'll keep up the old-timers cascade - add another for me. -Rick From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Mar 13 19:37:08 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:37:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > +1 more to 50 --> 54 > > Peter Wallace And myself: +1 to same Steve From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 13 20:04:54 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:04:54 -0600 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <4234E23F.9080404@allwest.net> Message-ID: <019001c5283a$3863b580$25406b43@66067007> Do the same for me as below. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Marshall" To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" <"Discussion at mmarshall.com"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 7:00 PM Subject: Re: Age > +1 to 55-59 > > Martin > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 13 21:28:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:28:08 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <423504C8.50201@oldskool.org> Nico de Jong wrote: > (youngest member is only 16) Man, are we corrupting him at a young age or what? I was 23 when I first got exposed to cantankerous sarcastic old-computer-people :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Mar 13 21:29:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:29:35 -0600 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050313110219.C682@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050313110219.C682@localhost> Message-ID: <4235051F.9010609@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > There's also AALIB, the 3D graphics system for (not kidding) And libcaca (google it), for color. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 13 21:37:38 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> >Nico de Jong wrote: >I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and here >are the results. >55 listmembers have answered. >The ages are distributed as follows : >15-19 : 2 (youngest member is only 16) >20-24 : 4 >25-29 : 3 >30-34 : 7 >35-39 : 9 >40-44 : 13 >45-49 : 6 >50-54 : 3 >55-59 : 3 >60-64 : 3 >65-69 : 1 (oldest : 67) >70... : nil >The biggest groups are 37 (6 members) and 42 (5 members) >Half of the members are between 33 and 47 years old >Not many "old farts", including myself (59) only 5. > > Jerome Fine replies: Born July 24th, 1938 - now 66 years old. I already replied, but I am almost positive that someone else was also 66 years old and maybe a few months younger. I will check back through the replies I saved, but if the other 66 year old will please stand up ????? As for being an old fart, you must be 65 years old first, so you don't qualify yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 13 21:47:02 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:47:02 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503110354.WAA4781060@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503110354.WAA4781060@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <42350936.6060507@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >>>The Monitor you're using was Sysgen'd to load those drivers >>>automatically. You could probably free up a little memory by doing a >>>Sysgen that just includes the drivers you need. >>> >>> >>Ok, makes sense. I suppose I have to find an original system master to >>make my own sysgen. Though the boot disk I'm using now suits me fine for >>my current purposes. >> >Problem is that it is wrong. The monitor, at boot time, will fill >in its tables for devices it finds (up to 40 devices). Except for >the system device, which is loaded so that it can't be unloaded, >these handlers are considered 'installed' if the I/O page addresses >indicated as required in the handler exist. This does not mean >that the handlers have been loaded. Handlers are not automatically >loaded by RT-11. They can, however, be loaded using the startup >command file. They can also be .FETCHed by properly written >programs. > > Jerome Fine replies: I always though that the maximum was about 32 devices, so I guess I will need to check. Also, although the system device is LOADed at boot time, the SHOW DEVICE command shows "Resident" as the actual status - which I agree means that it can't be UNLOADed. Finally, as discussed elsewhere, even normal "properly written programs" can't .Fetch a device driver if it is being run as a "system" or "foreground" job. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 13 21:56:03 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:56:03 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503110359.WAA4706541@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503110359.WAA4706541@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <42350B53.1060206@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >SET commands only operate on, and change, in on-disk copy of the >handler file. If you are booted from a given device and you issue >SET commands for that device handler, they won't take affect >until you reboot.. > >Same thing for issuing SET commands for device handlers which >are LOADed. But at least for them you can UNLOAD and LOAD >them. > > Jerome Fine replies: I can't think of a device handler which I can boot that can have SET commands affect the "Resident" in memory copy, HOWEVER, the LD(X).SYS device driver is updated in memory as well as on the disk drive if LD(X).SYS is already loaded. Except for DU(X).SYS, I really can't think of a device driver where changes that are compatible with the LOADed in memory copy can't be done at the same time as the disk copy. Obviously, changing the CSR or VECTOR much be done only to the disk copy, as well as other critical values. In point of fact, some device drivers such as the VM must also be REMOVEd and then INSTALLed again. Most novice RT-11 users will not need to be aware of these things, but the few experienced RT-11 users (are there any left except for Megan and myself?) are usually aware of these problems - except when old farts like myself forget. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 13 22:11:30 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:11:30 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503110406.XAA4787283@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503072356.j27NuGoe015058@onyx.spiritone.com> <200503110406.XAA4787283@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <42350EF2.7020001@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >What you need to understand is that RT-11 has a maximum volume size >of 65536 blocks. Therefore, for volumes which are larger than >this (typically only the DU drives, like RD53 and RD54, or SCSI or >DSSI which act like MSCP devices), the drive is logically partitioned >into units of 32mb each... > > Jerome Fine replies: I am pleased you note that each RT-11 partition is 65536 blocks - except maybe (usually) for the last RT-11 partition. It is again helpful to note that internally, RT-11 reports the size as 65535 blocks with the first block being zero and the last block being block 65534. This is so that a full 16 bit word can hold that largest size of 65535. blocks even though the actual size is 65536. blocks. If anyone thinks to test the above information, try: COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:65535./END:65535. DU1:/START:65535. or any other block for DU1: for that matter. NOTE that any other "START" block number for DU0: will result in the END block 65535. not being used. This is because there is a bug in DUP.SAV which ignores block 65535. except when there is ONLY a single block to copy. In that case, I presume that the person who wrote the code forgot to check that block 65535. should also be ignored in that case as well. I conclude that the likely reason is that 2 mistakes resulted in what the user requested being done. For example, try: COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:0./END:65535. DU1:/START:0. the result is the same for both of the following: COPY/DEVICE DU0: DU1: COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:0./END:65534. DU1:/START:0. with NO warning message being provided in the last case. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 13 22:21:21 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:21:21 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503131716.MAA4989740@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503100423.XAA4699784@shell.TheWorld.com> <200503131716.MAA4989740@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <42351141.4000907@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >Good point... that is true. But it is possible for system and >foreground jobs to fetch handlers if certain steps are taken >and if the program is designed a certain way... but it is not >for the faint of heart. I believe I used the technique in my >RTEFTP program... I'll have to check on the specifics. > > Jerome Fine replies: I have never seen any documentation for this. I though I remember seeing that the .Fetch EMT rejects a request from a job that is not the background job (zero). In addition, where is the device driver code to be placed, especially if a background job is already running which would often be the case? Also, I asked about the possibility of DU(X).SYS having 128 or even 256 units. Did you miss that question? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 13 18:58:54 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:58:54 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy?) In-Reply-To: <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:36:58 +0100, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan writes about bytes on the PDP-10: >> On the -10, >> one stores 6 6-bit characters in a machine word, and one speaks of >> bytes that are 6 bits. > > Not necessarily. On the PDP-10, the byte size could be anywhere from > zero (really!) to 36 bits. Seven bits was the most commonly used for > general ASCII text, with one leftover bit per word. In fact, this > was so common that the KS10 CPU has special dedicated hardware to make > the 7-bit byte case more efficient than the other supported byte sizes. ... A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a system. It was usual to speak of a character when a part of a whole word was extracted. I do not remember any details of the Univac 1107 (I only programmed in FORTRAN and Simula on it), but I think the normal character was six bits. I am fairly certain that was not a byte, it was extracted from an 18-bit halfword or a 36-bit word. A byte is something you can load and store to an individual address, and the hardware takes care of the rest. A character needs some software or firmware mapping in order to read or write just one of them. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 13 18:58:54 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:58:54 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter inch floppy?) In-Reply-To: <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:36:58 +0100, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan writes about bytes on the PDP-10: >> On the -10, >> one stores 6 6-bit characters in a machine word, and one speaks of >> bytes that are 6 bits. > > Not necessarily. On the PDP-10, the byte size could be anywhere from > zero (really!) to 36 bits. Seven bits was the most commonly used for > general ASCII text, with one leftover bit per word. In fact, this > was so common that the KS10 CPU has special dedicated hardware to make > the 7-bit byte case more efficient than the other supported byte sizes. ... A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a system. It was usual to speak of a character when a part of a whole word was extracted. I do not remember any details of the Univac 1107 (I only programmed in FORTRAN and Simula on it), but I think the normal character was six bits. I am fairly certain that was not a byte, it was extracted from an 18-bit halfword or a 36-bit word. A byte is something you can load and store to an individual address, and the hardware takes care of the rest. A character needs some software or firmware mapping in order to read or write just one of them. -- Bj?rn From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Mar 13 22:45:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:45:41 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 3:38 PM > On Mar 11 2005, 12:44, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> From: "Michael Sokolov" > >> > Changing the RPM is an option on SOME drives, and for PeeCees to > work it >> > must be OFF. It is very useful for Classic Computers, though. >> > >> > The high density select signal (pin 2) may or may not switch RPM, > but it >> > always switches the write current. > >> No, I have refered to the TEAC site and to WDC: >> >> WDC referes to pin 2 as speed select, their controller can be used > with >> either single speed or dual speed 1.2mb drives: >> http://www.wdc.com/en/library/legacy/controllerboards/1006mm1.pdf > > Michael is correct, the exact function varies from drive to drive, and > it always involves changing the write current. Some drives have > several jumpers to affect this. I could show you several from my > collection like that. Some controllers work at two speeds, some at two > data rates. Some of the WD controllers can be configured either way. > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I have tried to research the issue further but can I find no authoritative references to pin 2 being anything but an RPM select line. Other websites like mine do claim it is use for write current but provide no references to show it. If anyone has an authoritative reference stating it was not used to select rotational speed I will be happy to change my website stating that it does have multiple uses. Until then I have changed my site to say other sites state otherwise but include hyper-links to the manufacturer docs stating that it is for two speed drives (ala early IBM AT). Please note I am not looking for what people remember it does but actual documents from a manufacturer. I tested it with a TEAC FD-55GFR and sure enough it slowed the RPM when grounded. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From James at jdfogg.com Sun Mar 13 22:47:30 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:47:30 -0500 Subject: Burroughs L7000 Magnetic System - What is it? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D87@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Sheesh, > I've been offered a Burroughs L7000, but I don't even know > what it is. Any hints? > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/L7000.jpg > > Steve. Well, it looks like an A/C unit in a hotel ;-) From vcf at siconic.com Sun Mar 13 22:44:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:44:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: File format webopedia Message-ID: Just found a terrific resource: http://www.fileformat.info/ Has tons of information on file formats (mostly graphics, but also some text and markup formats). Searchable, with links to specifications and such. Might be useful when trying to decode an old file format you're not familiar with. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctech at randy482.com Sun Mar 13 22:52:19 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:52:19 -0600 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarterinch floppy?) References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server><20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net><018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com><20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net><20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net><3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <001d01c52851$9e2e8cc0$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Bj?rn" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:58 PM Please stop double posting. Both you and Eric Smith are posting to cctalk and cctech, both refer to the same list please only post to one or the other but not both. Randy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 13 23:24:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:24:34 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> Message-ID: <42352012.3000708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I already replied, but I am almost positive that someone > else was also 66 years old and maybe a few months younger. > I will check back through the replies I saved, but if the > other 66 year old will please stand up ????? > > As for being an old fart, you must be 65 years old first, > so you don't qualify yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless you got gas! Now is 66 decimal or octal? One thing about this group regardless of age or talent we all got into computers because I think we all wanted to try the 'new' techology for ourselves rather than let some-body else do computer hardware/software for us. Ben alias woodelf. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:30:51 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:30:51 +0800 Subject: Parking heads on MFM hard drive In-Reply-To: <423476D0.9020408@oldskool.org> References: <20050313043157.OYFH1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <423476D0.9020408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:22:24 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Early versions of Spinrite also come with PARK.COM, which just moves the heads > to their last cylinder. park.com, yeah I remember that. Once you run it, it gives a rtather reassuring "ker-KLUNK"... :-) /wai-sun From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 13 23:41:13 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:41:13 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <42352012.3000708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> <42352012.3000708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <423523F9.1080100@mdrconsult.com> woodelf wrote: > Unless you got gas! Now is 66 decimal or octal? > One thing about this group regardless of age or talent we all got into > computers > because I think we all wanted to try the 'new' techology for ourselves > rather than > let some-body else do computer hardware/software for us. Naw, I'm an oil-field refugee. I just wanted to start washing my hands *after* I used the restoom. Seriously, I'm a gearhead. I was never interested in computers at all till I started getting too old to spend eight straight in the sun every day, and "computer stuff" looked like the fast track to an air-conditioned paycheck. Little did I know.... Doc From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Mar 13 23:46:31 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:46:31 +0100 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > > I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and here > > are the results. > > > > Did you calculate the ages of those of us who did not directly express them? > Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it in fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. Please forgive me :-) Nico From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Mar 13 23:54:42 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:54:42 +0100 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> Message-ID: <009101c5285a$515b41f0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jerome H. Fine" > > Born July 24th, 1938 - now 66 years old. > > I already replied, but I am almost positive that someone > else was also 66 years old and maybe a few months younger. > I will check back through the replies I saved, but if the > other 66 year old will please stand up ????? Yes, You're a part of the "statistics". As I wrote before, some didnt give a date, but a birth year, and then I put most (9/12) in the "young" group, and 3/12 in the "old" group (I used to do statistics for the Employers Federation...) Nico From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 14 01:35:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:35:06 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <42352012.3000708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42350702.9020803@compsys.to> <42352012.3000708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42353EAA.9010708@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > One thing about this group regardless of age or talent we all got into > computers > because I think we all wanted to try the 'new' techology for ourselves > rather than > let some-body else do computer hardware/software for us. I was just saying something along the same lines to a colleage the other day about using BBSes heavily in the 1980s -- it took actual brainpower to know what hardware to buy, set up a machine with the right software and settings to dial a BBS, and then communication intelligently with others there. You simply couldn't be an utter technological moron and get online, so I found great solace in BBSing. Believe me, there were about 5 people at my high school who knew as much or more about computing as I did, and I already knew them all :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:10:29 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:10:29 +0800 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <20050313110219.C682@localhost> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050313110219.C682@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:04:41 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings wrote: > >> I believe hearing about (and seeing) a whole rendering of Star Wars for > >> ASCII. > > There's also AALIB, the 3D graphics system for (not kidding) AALIB is fully open-source software and is multi-platform. Many multimedia software now supports AALIB as its presentation layer (my favorite is aaxine). http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/index.html http://sourceforge.net/projects/aa-project/ Runs on all *nix (AFAIK) and DOS. I'm frequently running aaxine on a terminal emulator (one day I'll try to hook a VT100 to my Linux box). It's a bit perverse but you can actually watch VCD/DVD movies on a VT100!!! Takes a bit of getting used too though, and you'd have to watch it from a distance... :-) /wai-sun From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 14 02:06:19 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:06:19 +0000 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050313110219.C682@localhost> Message-ID: <423545FB.6080208@gjcp.net> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > It's a bit perverse but you can actually watch VCD/DVD movies on a VT100!!! > Takes a bit of getting used too though, and you'd have to watch it > from a distance... > :-) Watched Lain on my PC at home, while SSHed into it from work. Yup. No sound though, and you can't read the subtitles. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 14 02:09:28 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:09:28 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <423546B8.20507@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it in > fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. > Please forgive me :-) > > Nico > > > I think I expressed mine as "26 + VAT and Carriage" - which should of course work out to 31 (decimal). Gordon. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 14 02:32:17 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:32:17 +0100 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net><004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> <423546B8.20507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001e01c52870$550a6540$2101a8c0@finans> > Nico de Jong wrote: > > > Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it in > > fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. > > Please forgive me :-) > > > > I think I expressed mine as "26 + VAT and Carriage" - which should of > course work out to 31 (decimal). No, you said : --I'm 31, born in 1973, and I've been into electronics since I was about 6 --or 7, and computers not long after. First computer was a ZX81, then a --48k Spectrum, then a string of relatively unusual kit bought by my Dad's --boss for various datalogging projects and subsequently discarded. --AIM65, Epson HX-20, stuff like that. You would want to live in Denmark then. Even of you only took the VAT into consideration, you would be 32? ! One could of course catch all attrractive women, and deport them to a VAT-less country. That would make them considerably younger :-) Nico From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Mar 14 03:00:20 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:00:20 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <001e01c52870$550a6540$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net><004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> <423546B8.20507@gjcp.net> <001e01c52870$550a6540$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <423552A4.4080708@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > >>Nico de Jong wrote: >> >> >>>Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it > > in > >>>fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. >>>Please forgive me :-) >>> >> >>I think I expressed mine as "26 + VAT and Carriage" - which should of >>course work out to 31 (decimal). > > > No, you said : > > --I'm 31, born in 1973, and I've been into electronics since I was about 6 > --or 7, and computers not long after. First computer was a ZX81, then a > --48k Spectrum, then a string of relatively unusual kit bought by my Dad's > --boss for various datalogging projects and subsequently discarded. > --AIM65, Epson HX-20, stuff like that. Did I? Oh. Pre-senile dementia, then. Comes from reading all the tiny writing on those DEC printset PDFs. Or is that eyesight problems? > You would want to live in Denmark then. Even of you only took the VAT into > consideration, you would be 32? ! > One could of course catch all attrractive women, and deport them to a > VAT-less country. That would make them considerably younger :-) > Nico See, one of my mates has done the opposite, exporting an attractive woman from Denmark. Apart from the odd firmware bug, like lapsing into Danish occasionally, things are working out well. Gordon. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 03:04:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:04:12 -0700 Subject: ASCII In-Reply-To: <423545FB.6080208@gjcp.net> References: <0503111805.AA03954@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050311105815.R942@localhost> <4231F04F.6060009@mdrconsult.com> <1568.192.168.0.3.1110585983.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42323909.5000503@mdrconsult.com> <20050312133958.I682@localhost> <1110665089.8335.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050312180005.0728c053.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1110723502.9408.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050313110219.C682@localhost> <423545FB.6080208@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4235538C.3020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > >> It's a bit perverse but you can actually watch VCD/DVD movies on a >> VT100!!! >> Takes a bit of getting used too though, and you'd have to watch it >> from a distance... >> :-) > > > Watched Lain on my PC at home, while SSHed into it from work. Yup. > No sound though, and you can't read the subtitles. > But I think that is the wrong way to watch lain ... It is already too strange for my liking as is. Now for all the people who don't watch anime -- lain is very strange anime set in the future with ESP style computer interfacing. When you start getting email from dead people in the first episode it gets very dark quickly. Ben alias woodelf From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 03:12:45 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:12:45 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: Floppy drive pin 2 question?" (Mar 13, 22:45) References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 13 2005, 22:45, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Pete Turnbull" > > Michael is correct, the exact function varies from drive to drive, and > > it always involves changing the write current. Some drives have > > several jumpers to affect this. > I have tried to research the issue further but can I find no authoritative > references to pin 2 being anything but an RPM select line. > If anyone has an authoritative reference stating it was not used to select > rotational speed I will be happy to change my website stating that it does > have multiple uses. [ ... ] > Please note I am not looking for what people remember it does but actual > documents from a manufacturer. I tested it with a TEAC FD-55GFR and sure > enough it slowed the RPM when grounded. Well, how about document 5fd0050a.pdf from TEAC's website, which is the spec sheet for the FD-55GFR-XXXX range. Page 1 lists the customer-selectable jumpers for -3xxx, -4xxx and -5xxx as including "LG" and "I". Page 7 shows where all the jumpers are. Page 8 lists the jumpers for -7xxx. Page 13 states (the CAPITALS are in the original document) ---------------------------- begin --------------------------------- LG strap: to select the logical meaning of the Hi/Normal DENSITY input signal at interface line #2 LG Strap OFF ON -------------- -------------- ------------- Density mode HIGH LOW HIGH LOW I/F #2 signal HIGH LOW LOW HIGH For an AT compatible system LG should be set to the off state. I Strap: Strap to select the rotational speed mode of the FDD for the Hi and Low density modes. ---------------------------- end --------------------------------- In other words, Pin 2 is the Density Select signal, and can be jumpered to work so that 0V (signal active) sets HD and inactive sets low density (SD/DD, or FM/MFM). Normally it's not fitted, so active (low) sets low density and inactive (or open-circuit) sets high density -- as you woould want for an IBM AT or similar. The "I" jumper controls whether the Density Select signal *also* controls the speed -- a *secondary* function of the Density Select. If fitted, speed changes when density does; if not fitted, speed is fixed at 360 RPM. Pages 16-21 of the same PDF file on TEAC's website are a scanned copy of TEAC's "FD-55-GRF-XXXX Instalation Guide" for use with IBM AT, which clearly shows the factory settings of the jumpers, with neither "LG" nor "I" fitted, so Pin 2 selects density as usual, and the signal on pin 2 does not affect the speed, which is fixed at 360 rpm. If you want more, I have data for Mitsubishi MF504C-310MP, on which jumper SS sets single speed (360 rpm) without affecting density selection, same for Mitsubishi M4854-35, Panasonic JU-475-2.AGG (jumper AX makes density select on pin 2 be latched when drive is selected, BX/CX/JX determine if speed is determined by density select or is fixed, and 1M forces it to ignore the density select signal on pin 2), and Fuji FDD5883AOK (Toshiba) which has a jumper from pin 2 to ground labelled "DD" for double density and described as disabling HD (jumpers DE/DX are described as to set the speed according to the density, or fixed). Think about this: All HD-capable 5.25" drives need a way to set the density (by changing the write current) for either 300 oersted media or 600 oersted media. The drive has no way to tell on its own. Therefore there must be some signal defined to do this. AT controllers can write both densities at 360 rpm (they just use a 300kbps clock instead of a 250kbps clock), so they don't actually need to change the speed. Therefore the signal previously unused (or, rarely, used in non-standard vendor-dependant ways) on pin 2 is the density signal; using it to reduce the speed is an optional extra. Your FD55 happens to have a jumper fitted to make the speed change when you change the density, that's all. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Mar 14 04:26:53 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:26:53 +0100 Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <1110796014.468.3.camel@fortran> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 23:14 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. I expect a > backup system to be completely trustworthy and until recently I haven't > found any I'd trust that much. Maybe I shouldn't now, either - but I > haven't been burned lately. IME/HO RAID arrays are where it's at... RAID 5 gives you increased performance, redundancy, etc, etc, yadda, yadda. But to protect from user error, buy disks. They're starting to run cheaper than backup material the same size, and they're reliable over time, and they're *fast*. My 20 millidollars. -- Tore S Bekkedal From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Mar 14 05:12:51 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:12:51 +0100 Subject: HP Integral : running ! Not... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1110798771.468.6.camel@fortran> On Sun, 2005-03-13 at 19:38 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > It's a nomal Thinkjet AFAIK. Which means there is a selftest got by > powering up with one of the buttons held down. But I forget just which one. On all the numerous printers I've seen, Form Feed does that. Often the other buttons do other things, but FF usually prints something out. -- Tore S Bekkedal From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 05:13:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:13:53 +0000 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <1110798833.10973.4.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-13 at 22:45 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > If anyone has an authoritative reference stating it was not used to select > rotational speed I will be happy to change my website stating that it does > have multiple uses. According to my spec doc for the Manta board, it says pin 2 was also used as the disk change line on some drives. Pin four is typically head load / front LED / eject, and pin 16 is motor control but at least one drive uses that line for density change. This is why I was getting confused as to what's typical for a 'normal' drive (i.e. one set up for a PC) :-) cheers Jules From bristol22 at softhome.net Mon Mar 14 05:43:56 2005 From: bristol22 at softhome.net (bristol22 at softhome.net) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 04:43:56 -0700 Subject: Old 9-track Tar Tapes Message-ID: I have some 9-track mag tapes, mostly 1600bpi but a couple are 800bpi or 6250bpi. They were made under 4.2BSD Unix on a DEC Vax 11/780 in about 1986. They are "tar" tapes, blocking factor 20. The contents are my C programs written then, academic papers I wrote then, and my email from then. I want to get the data off the tapes. I am only interested in the ASCII data, and not any executable files. (The physical tapes are up for grabs, and some cost me $25 each back then, "Graham Magnetics Ultra-Mag" certified 100% error free for 25 years.) Is there a kind, generous, and tape-drive equipped soul out there that would help me out? A reply like "Only the 800bpi" or "Only the 6250bpi" would be welcome. Destination: my friend's FTP server, CD-R, DVD-R, or whatever. Compensation: I have some PDP-11 style hex boards, some of them prototypes. I have the controller for a DEC RF-11 fixed head disk. I have a "certified error free", new old stock, 80MB disk pack for a CDC 9762 (SMD). Back in 1985 2.8 BSD on a PDP-11 needed an error free disk pack. I have a RK05 disk pack. I am unemployed at the moment, but could still pay something, and shipping. Maybe I can repay the favor with my time. I am pretty good at writing websites, including Flash. Maybe you have to work on the "dark side" sometimes, and I can ease your pain. I am good at most things from uncle Bill, including Windows 2003 server clusters, Terminal Services, and applications large and small. I study Japanese and other languages, and software for that study. Also, I am an expert in auto-feed document scanners and document management/capture software. richard bristol // email: bristol22 [at] softhome [dot] net From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 14 05:58:26 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:58:26 -0000 Subject: MicroVAX II - TK50 problem In-Reply-To: <200503132304.j2DN42Hx078764@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <012b01c5288d$22d2fe80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > This is perhaps why I've not nuked anything else on our test > VAXen when I've been sorting out RA7x disks with an un-modded > KDA50. It was only last week that I discovered I'm supposed to > remove the 2 grant 'jumpers' before installing in a Q22/CD > backplane. Fortunately it seems like I've not nuked the card > that was downstream of the KDA50 in this case :) My KDA50 was always last on the bus - in fact it was always in the very left hand slots in a BA21x cabinet ... saved having to scrounge load boards from somewhere! It was usually a DHV11 or similar that I had to worry about. Thinking about it, I did have a KDA50 in a BA23 - there obviously the straps had to be in - although my main concerns were not setting the PSU on fire and having enough space internally to house the SDI leads out to the cab kit!! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 14 06:26:23 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:26:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 Bj?rn wrote: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:36:58 +0100, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Ethan writes about bytes on the PDP-10: >>> On the -10, >>> one stores 6 6-bit characters in a machine word, and one speaks of >>> bytes that are 6 bits. >> >> Not necessarily. On the PDP-10, the byte size could be anywhere from >> zero (really!) to 36 bits. Seven bits was the most commonly used for >> general ASCII text, with one leftover bit per word. In fact, this >> was so common that the KS10 CPU has special dedicated hardware to make >> the 7-bit byte case more efficient than the other supported byte sizes. > ... > > A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a system. Nonsense! Where did you get that? The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. The smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. A byte is, as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are stored in a word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a PDP-10, you have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and a bit pointer, and byte size. So it points to the correct word, and then you have a bitfield in that word that a nice instruction can extract, and also move the bitfield pointer ahead the correct amount and move on the the next word, if the next byte would not fit in this word. A byte is simply a convenient number of bits enough to store a character. No explicit definition of how many "convenient" is, nor what character set we're talking about with "character". A byte is just that. A convenient size typ for character data. The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable is the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is plain and simply because they haven't seen any other. > It was usual to speak of a character when a part of a whole word was > extracted. I do not remember any details of the Univac 1107 (I only > programmed in FORTRAN and Simula on it), but I think the normal character > was six bits. I am fairly certain that was not a byte, it was extracted > from an 18-bit halfword or a 36-bit word. A byte is something you can load > and store to an individual address, and the hardware takes care of the > rest. A character needs some software or firmware mapping in order to read > or write just one of them. Bah. A sixbit character can very well be a byte, it's just a question of if you choose to call it that. Byte addressable is not usable as a definition of a byte. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 14 08:10:42 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:10:42 +0100 Subject: Old 9-track Tar Tapes References: Message-ID: <001101c5289f$9bc83eb0$2101a8c0@finans> > I have some 9-track mag tapes, mostly 1600bpi but a couple are 800bpi > or 6250bpi. . Maybe I can repay the favor with my time. I am pretty good > at writing websites, I volunteer, as my website could do with some loving care :-) No problems with the densities. Nico From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Mar 14 08:54:25 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:54:25 -0500 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: >> Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. Joe> That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape Joe> backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and Joe> everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the Joe> computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. Real tapes include classic half inch reel, DLT, and presumably IBM' cartridges (I haven't used those). The most obvious nasty example of PC class tapes are QIC cartridges. DAT is similar -- those are miniature video tapes, forced into pretending to be data tapes. It doesn't help when trade press reviewers don't take data integrity seriously. Some years ago there was a review article about backup software. The reviewers did some restore testing. Good of them to do that. Some of the programs tested didn't reliably restore data, so they were docked 30 points or so. That's amazing. The only correct answer would be to unconditionally flunk such programs, because the value of a backup program that can't restore reliably is obviously zero, not any higher value... paul From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Mar 14 08:17:28 2005 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:17:28 -0500 Subject: age In-Reply-To: <200503141202.j2EC2Qeu088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503141202.j2EC2Qeu088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42359CF8.1040200@pechter.dyndns.org> Add another one to the 50-54... I'm 50 now hitting 51 in June. Bill From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Mar 14 09:27:41 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:27:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > >> Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. > > Joe> That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape > Joe> backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and > Joe> everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the > Joe> computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. > > My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. Real tapes > include classic half inch reel, DLT, and presumably IBM' cartridges (I > haven't used those). The most obvious nasty example of PC class tapes > are QIC cartridges. DAT is similar -- those are miniature video > tapes, forced into pretending to be data tapes. Hmm. When you condemn QIC cartridges, I hope this is restricted only to the smaller format media (as used by AST, Irwin and others long-departed). Certainly, the full-sized QIC media like DC6525, Magnus 1.0, etc. were routinely used for backing up and restoring "real" computers. I never had any problems with the large cartridges, although you did have to be careful whose drive you used (Wangtek and Archive were exquisite pieces of crap; Tandberg seems to have been the "Gold Standard" for serious use and was OEM equipment for IBM, Sun, DEC and others.) Steve From tomhudson at execpc.com Mon Mar 14 09:40:17 2005 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:40:17 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4235B061.8050206@execpc.com> +1 to the 45-49 category -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Mar 14 09:41:52 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:41:52 -0500 Subject: New transputer pictures - original B004 prototype and 1st TRAM pr ototype! Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478080FA2AC@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Someone just sent me pictures of the original B004 prototype and prototypes of the 1st transputer tram. He also sent the 1st production run of the tram as well. Apparently, he has tons of vintage transputer equipment waiting to archived. Happy Days are coming!!! First set of pics are of the prototype B004, complete with all mod wires! Note the old-style 124pin PGA package and the unmarked link adapter. Truly an original in all respects! The TRAM is, again, prototype #1. Again, you can see the hand-wired mods. There's also a picture the first of the production rev. of the TRAM (new pcb layout). Finally, a total rarity - the T424 datasheet. http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/tram0_1.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/b4prepro_1.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/b4prepro_0.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/t424prelim.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/tram0_2.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/b4prepro_2.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/b4prepro_3.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/images/prototypes/tram1_1.jpg Cheers, Ram (c) 2005 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 06:18:09 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:18:09 +0800 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 Message-ID: I am currently really enjoying "Fire in the Valley", and was reliving the days when IMSAI reigned.... I learnt about the VDP-80 and how poor management chose to released the not-fully-debugged VDP-80 into the public... So anybody as a VDP-80? Until I read about it I've never head of it... /wai-sun From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 14 10:07:32 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:07:32 +0100 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com><3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > >> Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. > > Joe> That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape > Joe> backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and > Joe> everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the > Joe> computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. > > My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. . > The most obvious nasty example of PC class tapes > are QIC cartridges. DAT is similar -- those are miniature video > tapes, forced into pretending to be data tapes. I couldnt agree more. QIC-80 (including Travan) and QIC-2000 are a nightmare. The same goes for DAT Reel-to-reel and 3480/3490 are the best I've worked with, closely followed by DC600. The reason (for me) that DC600 is second best, is that the error recovery is much easier Nico From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 14 10:26:13 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:26:13 -0600 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 References: Message-ID: <010501c528b2$8c3d8960$4e406b43@66067007> Great book I have all three editions of it and the CD that comes with the Collector's Edition is nice. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wai-Sun Chia" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:18 AM Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 >I am currently really enjoying "Fire in the Valley", and was reliving > the days when IMSAI reigned.... > > I learnt about the VDP-80 and how poor management chose to released > the not-fully-debugged VDP-80 into the public... > > So anybody as a VDP-80? Until I read about it I've never head of it... > > /wai-sun > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 10:25:01 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:25:01 +0800 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:54:25 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. Real tapes > include classic half inch reel, DLT, and presumably IBM' cartridges (I > haven't used those). The most obvious nasty example of PC class tapes > are QIC cartridges. DAT is similar -- those are miniature video > tapes, forced into pretending to be data tapes. > All my years dealing with the DEC TK tapes (from the 1st gen TK50 to the SCSI-based TZ89), aftter that Quantum DLTs to today's SDLTs and LTOs; I've never had any trouble with them. DATs on the other hand..... /wai-sun From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 10:27:53 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:27:53 GMT Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: Paul Koning "Re: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working" (Mar 14, 9:54) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <10503141627.ZM8783@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 9:54, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > >> Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. > > Joe> That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape > Joe> backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and > Joe> everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the > Joe> computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. > > My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. Real tapes > include classic half inch reel, DLT, and presumably IBM' cartridges (I > haven't used those). I'll go along with that. I've had a few problems recovering data from 8mm and 4mm tapes -- in the latter case it's been the drives that were troublesome, rather than the media -- but not with DLTs or 1/2" magtape (except for very very old ones). I've never used QIC tapes, though some of my friends seem to think the bigger ones are OK. > It doesn't help when trade press reviewers don't take data integrity > seriously. Some years ago there was a review article about backup > software. The reviewers did some restore testing. Good of them to do > that. Some of the programs tested didn't reliably restore data, so > they were docked 30 points or so. > > That's amazing. The only correct answer would be to unconditionally > flunk such programs, because the value of a backup program that can't > restore reliably is obviously zero, not any higher value... I agree. If it won't restore, you'd be better off not bothering at all, and saving the money (and time). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 14 10:41:42 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:41:42 -0500 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net><004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> <423546B8.20507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <007a01c528b4$b4a0f980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Let me point out that Jay had specifically mentioned this thread as one of the annoyingly off-topic ones. It's even worse now that people are off the track twice, not even keeping to the first diverted topic. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 14 10:40:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > > > Joe> At 11:14 PM 3/12/05 -0500, James Fogg wrote: > > >> Over the years I've learned to never trust tape of any kind. > > > > Joe> That's been my experience. I've never been able to get a tape > > Joe> backup that worked. That includes brand new ones, DATs and > > Joe> everything else. I know tapes have been a mainstay in the > > Joe> computer field but I've had nothing but trouble with them. > > > > My view is that there are PC class tapes and real tapes. Real tapes > > include classic half inch reel, DLT, and presumably IBM' cartridges (I > > haven't used those). The most obvious nasty example of PC class tapes > > are QIC cartridges. DAT is similar -- those are miniature video > > tapes, forced into pretending to be data tapes. > > Hmm. When you condemn QIC cartridges, I hope this is restricted only to > the smaller format media (as used by AST, Irwin and others long-departed). > Certainly, the full-sized QIC media like DC6525, Magnus 1.0, etc. were > routinely used for backing up and restoring "real" computers. I never had > any problems with the large cartridges, although you did have to be > careful whose drive you used (Wangtek and Archive were exquisite pieces of I used Colorado Jumbo drives pretty extensively and usually had good experiences with them, though the hardware could be flaky sometimes. I don't think I ever lost any data due to media failures. > crap; Tandberg seems to have been the "Gold Standard" for serious use and > was OEM equipment for IBM, Sun, DEC and others.) Are you sure you're not thinking of Archive? I find more Archive 2150S drives than anything else in old machines. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 14 10:41:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:41:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I am currently really enjoying "Fire in the Valley", and was reliving > the days when IMSAI reigned.... > > I learnt about the VDP-80 and how poor management chose to released > the not-fully-debugged VDP-80 into the public... > > So anybody as a VDP-80? Until I read about it I've never head of it... They're very rare. I know less than a handful of people than own one. The Computer History Museum has a VDP-40. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 14 10:46:54 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:46:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a >> system. Well, it sounds reasonable, but probably isn't the most useful, as it would mean that, for example, the PDP-8 had 12-bit bytes. > The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. > The smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. > A byte is, as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are > stored in a word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a > PDP-10, you have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and > a bit pointer, and byte size. That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing an object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that bytes of any size *are* individually addressible. Or have I misunderstood? > The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable is > the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is plain and > simply because they haven't seen any other. There even are relatively modern machines which don't fit it very well. Some DSPs, for example, have 32 bits as their smallest directly addressible unit. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 14 10:56:03 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:56:03 -0600 Subject: File format webopedia References: Message-ID: <012701c528b6$b69abbc0$4e406b43@66067007> Nice site! Thanks for the tip ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:44 PM Subject: File format webopedia > > Just found a terrific resource: > > http://www.fileformat.info/ > > Has tons of information on file formats (mostly graphics, but also some > text and markup formats). Searchable, with links to specifications and > such. > > Might be useful when trying to decode an old file format you're not > familiar with. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 11:12:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts Message-ID: <200503141712.JAA24088@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >CMOS isn't *THAT* sensitive; easy, benign, reasonable precautions >are more than adequate. Ben, the days of early MOS/CMOS >hypersensitivity to static are long gone. Even 1970's 4000 series >had input-protection diodes. The 4051,4052 and 4053 were very static sensitive. But it is try that most were relatively insensitive. Still, if you are hitting a part with a spark large enough to make a sound, you are most likely doing some damage, even if it doesn't show right away. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 11:18:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:18:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) Message-ID: <200503141718.JAA24127@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Maddox" > >--- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >> Also, have you removed the chip and put some >> contact >> enhancer on it?? ( You know, some silicon grease ) >> Dwight > >I imagine that some DeOxit or similar would be >good, but silicon grease? I thought that was >for *thermal* conductivity only. > >--Bill Hi Bill Don't use heat sink grease. That has fillers to make it thermally conductive. Use the clear gel stuff. Dow Corning #4 works wonders and doesn't harm any of the electrical stuff. I actually use SilGlyde that I got at the automotive shop. It works quite well. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 14 11:17:44 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:17:44 -0600 Subject: File format webopedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050314111715.04f71dc8@mail> At 10:44 PM 3/13/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Just found a terrific resource: >http://www.fileformat.info/ >Has tons of information on file formats (mostly graphics, but also some >text and markup formats). Searchable, with links to specifications and >such. A lot of the file format info there comes from the second edition of O'Reilly's Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats. I did a little editing and contributed a chapter or so to it back in 1996. It's a few years old and out of print, although it seems O'Reilly has allowed it to be copied now. The primary author and I tried pitching a 3D-oriented file format book to extend the series but they didn't bite. The guy's custom-made conglomerate of under-the-hood tools looked interesting; I'd love to find a good CMS that would let me better organize a similar pile of computer docs and tidbits. I'd love to find something more oriented to museum-like curation and archiving, with lots of metadata to preserve file info and location and origin. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Mar 14 11:25:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:25:22 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16949.51458.380000.796333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >>> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a >>> system. >> The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. The >> smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. A byte is, >> as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are stored in a >> word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a PDP-10, you >> have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and a bit >> pointer, and byte size. der> That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of der> addressing an object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that der> would mean that bytes of any size *are* individually der> addressible. "Addressable" is a somewhat slippery concept. In the PDP-10, the architecture description clearly is in terms of 36-bit words as the addressable entity. Loads and stores act on them, memory addresses (for example in jumps) are addresses of 36-bit words, and so forth. But yes, you could claim that the byte operations "address" smaller units. A PDP-10 person would argue they don't -- they address words, and then extract or insert the smaller bytes. CDC 6000s have something analogous, a set of character instructions that interpret 60-bit words as collections of 10 6-bit characters. I don't think a strict literal reading of bits of spec will give you clean answers. You have to go by what the intent of the designers was when they created their models. For example, older Alphas can't load/store bytes either, you have to extract or insert them. But the memory addresses, at least as seen by the program, are considered to be byte addresses, so one would call an Alpha byte-addressed even though it can't load and store bytes. Maybe a good test is to look at program addresses. If those look like byte addresses -- though often they will have alignment rules -- then I'd call the beast byte addressable. By that test, Alpha and PDP-11 clearly are, and PDP-10 and CDC 6000 clearly are not. (That assumes von Neumann machines -- it doesn't help with Harvard machines.) >> The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable >> is the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is >> plain and simply because they haven't seen any other. der> There even are relatively modern machines which don't fit it der> very well. Some DSPs, for example, have 32 bits as their der> smallest directly addressible unit. Some don't even use power of 2 word lengths, e.g., the 24 bit Motorola ones. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 14 11:24:17 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:24:17 -0600 Subject: File format webopedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050314111206.04e57eb8@mail> At 10:44 PM 3/13/2005, you wrote: >Just found a terrific resource: >http://www.fileformat.info/ >Has tons of information on file formats (mostly graphics, but also some >text and markup formats). Searchable, with links to specifications and >such. Might be useful when trying to decode an old file format you're not >familiar with. A lot of the file format info comes from the second edition of O'Reilly's Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats. I did a little editing and contributed a chapter or so to it back in 1996. It's a few years old and out of print, although it seems O'Reilly has allowed it to be copied now. The primary author and I tried pitching a 3D-oriented file format book to extend the series but they didn't bite. The guy's custom-made conglomerate of under-the-hood tools looked interesting; I'd love to find a good CMS that would let me better organize a similar pile of computer docs and tidbits. I'd love to find something more oriented to museum-like curation and archiving, with lots of metadata to preserve file info and location and origin. - John From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Mar 14 11:28:52 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:28:52 -0500 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <006d01c3bf43$bcc44800$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> <006d01c3bf43$bcc44800$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050314122716.038964b0@pop-server> At 12:33 PM 12/10/2003, you wrote: >Hi everybody. > >Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for >yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind >of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost >2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. I would love to be able to connect a 5-1/4" external floppie drive via USP to XP PRO or WIN98SE. If anybody can lead me to what I need I would be willing to purchase it. >Thanks in advance. >Cheers > >Sergio ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 11:27:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:27:51 -0700 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >Well, it sounds reasonable, but probably isn't the most useful, as it >would mean that, for example, the PDP-8 had 12-bit bytes. > > > Umm words... it has six bit bytes. I think the lack of 18 bit byte cpu's has limited the use of 9 bit bytes. ( No comment from any 36 bitters ) >>The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. >>The smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. >>A byte is, as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are >>stored in a word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a >>PDP-10, you have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and >>a bit pointer, and byte size. >> >> > >That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing an >object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that bytes of >any size *are* individually addressible. >Or have I misunderstood? > > > I belive so, but I have not programmed a 10. I suspect this is in regards to string operations rather say accessing character sized data data. Two different things. >>The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable is >>the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is plain and >>simply because they haven't seen any other. >> >> Well in most cases a byte is a unsigned 1/2 half word. I still like view of the PDP-11 a byte is signed data. I think the lack of real byte access has forced the C standard to have unsigned bytes because the machines ( 8080,Z80) can't handle real bytes . >>There even are relatively modern machines which don't fit it very well. >>Some DSPs, for example, have 32 bits as their smallest directly >>addressible unit. >> >> >> It is word access I found the problem , not byte acess in the smaller machines a problem. As for the 386(+) I can say it still needs 8080 style code generation for simple compilers and compilers provide it. IE pesudo code. LD A,(FOO); LD B,BYTE(BAR);CLR B_HIGH;ADD A,B;ST A,(FOOBAR); Ben alias woodelf From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Mar 14 11:34:21 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:34:21 -0500 Subject: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts Message-ID: <3d261d03d20030.3d200303d261d0@optonline.net> > The 4051,4052 and 4053 were very static sensitive. But it > is try that most were relatively insensitive. Still, if you > are hitting a part with a spark large enough to make > a sound, you are most likely doing some damage, even if > it doesn't show right away. Duiring the '70s and '80s I worked at a company that made many military and space grade components. A percentage were de-lidded at the end of each lot and sent to a SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) to look for static damage, that had NOT effected functionallity. If any (above a very small threshold) was found, the ENTIRE lot was scrapped [although they really became samples, lab grade, etc...] It was AMAZING, the various craters and cracks that were caused by static that you could not see, feel, or hear.... Wish I still had some of the prints.... From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 11:42:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:42:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got Videotrax card working Message-ID: <200503141742.JAA24133@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >In case anyone cares, I ended up getting working that Videotrax card I >wrote about a day ago. What might be useful to know is that I followed >Dwight's advice and re-seated the only socketed chip on the board (that >customy Motorola chip). After doing this everything seems to be working >peachy. I'm more than halfway through dumping another 10 megabytes of >data from one of the VHS data tapes I have; so far so good. > >New maxim: when all else fails, re-seat. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > Hi Good to hear. Dwight From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 14 11:44:28 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:44:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 14, 2005 10:27:51 AM Message-ID: <20050314174428.6646673029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > >>The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable is > >>the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is plain and > >>simply because they haven't seen any other. > > Well in most cases a byte is a unsigned 1/2 half word. I still like view > of the PDP-11 a byte is signed data. I think the lack of real byte access > has forced the C standard to have unsigned bytes because the machines ( > 8080,Z80) can't handle real bytes . Which C Standard? C89? That mandates the following: a char type, minimum of 8 bits a short type, minimum of 16 bits a long type, minimum of 32 bits an int type, which is at least as large as a short, but not longer than a long. Also, unless otherwise noted, integral types (short, int, long) will default to signed, *except* for char, which can be signed or unsigned depending upon the implementation (for instance, most Unix C compilers in the early 90s defaulted to signed chars, while most MS-DOS C compilers defaulted to unsigned chars). You can certainly have a signed char and an unsigned char, but just a plain "char" would give you one of the other (implementation detail). -spc (So, what's a "real byte" again?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 12:07:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:07:42 -0700 Subject: Programming and OS's In-Reply-To: <20050314174428.6646673029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050314174428.6646673029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4235D2EE.6030405@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Which C Standard? C89? That mandates the following: > a char type, minimum of 8 bits Now they default to bloat or C++ or the 'NEW' standard. > You can certainly have a signed char and an unsigned char, but just a > plain "char" would give you one of the other (implementation detail). I read the C-bible once ... C was clean on the PDP-11 but not so any more. What I did notice is how improved basic hardware has defined the basic language one programmed in. 8080/8088 languages all have seem to very verbose and very primitve with very few operations. PL/M-8080 and PASCAL-8088. The 6502/6800 ended primary BASIC machines. The 6809 BASIC/PASCAL but better basic/pascal with OS/9. Every thing else got programmed in assembler. Note this does not cover Mini or bigger computers. Ben Alias woodelf From mcesari at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 13:11:24 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:11:24 -0700 Subject: Difference between 2 PDP11 models In-Reply-To: <1110494970.6416.6.camel@linux.site> References: <1110267649.9126.14.camel@linux.site> <002b01c5244a$e36b3140$0100a8c0@screamer> <1110494970.6416.6.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 3:49 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 20:54 -0500, Bob Shannon wrote: >> I used to own an 11t55. >> >> It has fast bipolar memory, and a dual unibus configuration. > > Yea, so does the 11/55 (actually the 11/45 and 11/50 also have a dual > unibus config...since they're all based upon the 11/45). So I ask > again, what's the diff? > > Thanks. > I ran across this the other day while perusing a copy of the option module list. [1] These letter designations define different "pre-packaged" systems. The "11T55" (actually all 11T's) are equipped with 1 or more rk05's. For example, the description of an 11T55-BA is: 11/55-BA, FP11-C, RK11J-DE, RK05J-AA, 120V 60HZ. The 11/55-BA has an LA36 and an 11/55-CA; The 11/55-CA has 2 - MS11-CC (Controller for bipolar memory) 8 - MS11-AP (4k bipolar memory cards) KB11-D, DL11-W, KT11-CD, and M9312. An 11/55-CE is the above without the bipolar memory. Mike [1] This is a PDF file of the april 1983 option module list. It's on bitsavers in the dec/modules directory. And it's almost 85MB long. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 14 13:04:06 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:04:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> ["byte" means the machine's addressing unit] >> Well, it sounds reasonable, but probably isn't the most useful, as >> it would mean that, for example, the PDP-8 had 12-bit bytes. > Umm words... it has six bit bytes. By the "byte = addressing unit" definition? It's been a while since I had a PDP-8 (I had an -8/f but I long ago gave it to a collector much more serious than I), but I'm fairly sure the addressing unit was the 12-bit word. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 13:19:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:19:06 -0700 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> <200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >By the "byte = addressing unit" definition? It's been a while since I >had a PDP-8 (I had an -8/f but I long ago gave it to a collector much >more serious than I), but I'm fairly sure the addressing unit was the >12-bit word. > > Addressing unit is WORDS... How ever text can and often was packed in 6 bit nibbles? The real gotya on the old machines... UPPER CASE ASCII ONLY. Ben alias woodelf From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 14 13:25:21 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:25:21 -0500 Subject: Burroughs L7000 Magnetic System - What is it? Message-ID: <01C528A1.C646C6A0@H70.C223.tor.velocet.net> ---------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: steven stengel Subject: Burroughs L7000 Magnetic System - What is it? Sheesh, I've been offered a Burroughs L7000, but I don't even know what it is. Any hints? http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/L7000.jpg Steve. ----- Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:47:30 -0500 From: "James Fogg" Subject: RE: Burroughs L7000 Magnetic System - What is it? Well, it looks like an A/C unit in a hotel ;-) ---------------Reply: It does indeed, but it is a somewhat misleading close-up picture of the nameplate. It's a relatively rare model of the L series accounting computer, desk size with a keyboard, dual tractor Selectric-type printer, fixed hard disk and integrated paper tape reader, capable of reading mag stripe ledger cards (hence the "magnetic"). Suggest you ask for a picture of the whole machine; see: http://www.sieler.com/L9000/original.html for excellent pictures of an L9000, identical but with solid state memory and dot-matrix printer (and a single tape drive on this particular one). Possible peripherals include PPT/EPC reader & punch, up to 4 digital cassette tape drives, external card reader, modem, etc. I believe it was the last model to use a fixed hard disk for program & working storage before they went solid state (L8000/9000). Programming was normally done in assembler on a mainframe, using punched card input and PPT output. With peripherals and the relevant software it was possible to program on the L itself; otherwise one could still program in machine language (again, with the necessary software/firmware). A real challenge if you don't have the firmware and utility tapes; threw out most of my manuals & tapes long ago, but might still have a golf & lunar lander game on cassette tape somewhere. BTW, looks like Bletchley has a restored L5000 in its collection, a very similar previous model; also, there used to be someone on this list with 2 L9000s. mike From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 14 13:29:30 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:29:30 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:12 AM > On Mar 13 2005, 22:45, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> From: "Pete Turnbull" > >> > Michael is correct, the exact function varies from drive to drive, > and >> > it always involves changing the write current. Some drives have >> > several jumpers to affect this. > >> I have tried to research the issue further but can I find no > authoritative >> references to pin 2 being anything but an RPM select line. > >> If anyone has an authoritative reference stating it was not used to > select >> rotational speed I will be happy to change my website stating that it > does >> have multiple uses. > > [ ... ] > >> Please note I am not looking for what people remember it does but > actual >> documents from a manufacturer. I tested it with a TEAC FD-55GFR and > sure >> enough it slowed the RPM when grounded. > > Well, how about document 5fd0050a.pdf from TEAC's website, which is the > spec sheet for the FD-55GFR-XXXX range. Page 1 lists the > customer-selectable jumpers for -3xxx, -4xxx and -5xxx as including > "LG" and "I". Page 7 shows where all the jumpers are. Page 8 lists > the jumpers for -7xxx. > > Page 13 states (the CAPITALS are in the original document) > > ---------------------------- begin --------------------------------- > > LG strap: to select the logical meaning of the Hi/Normal DENSITY input > signal at interface line #2 > > LG Strap OFF ON > -------------- -------------- ------------- > Density mode HIGH LOW HIGH LOW > I/F #2 signal HIGH LOW LOW HIGH > > For an AT compatible system LG should be set to the off state. > > I Strap: > > Strap to select the rotational speed mode of the FDD for the Hi and Low > density modes. > > ---------------------------- end --------------------------------- > > In other words, Pin 2 is the Density Select signal, and can be jumpered > to work so that 0V (signal active) sets HD and inactive sets low > density (SD/DD, or FM/MFM). Normally it's not fitted, so active (low) > sets low density and inactive (or open-circuit) sets high density -- as > you woould want for an IBM AT or similar. > > The "I" jumper controls whether the Density Select signal *also* > controls the speed -- a *secondary* function of the Density Select. If > fitted, speed changes when density does; if not fitted, speed is fixed > at 360 RPM. > > Pages 16-21 of the same PDF file on TEAC's website are a scanned copy > of TEAC's "FD-55-GRF-XXXX Instalation Guide" for use with IBM AT, which > clearly shows the factory settings of the jumpers, with neither "LG" > nor "I" fitted, so Pin 2 selects density as usual, and the signal on > pin 2 does not affect the speed, which is fixed at 360 rpm. > > If you want more, I have data for Mitsubishi MF504C-310MP, on which > jumper SS sets single speed (360 rpm) without affecting density > selection, same for Mitsubishi M4854-35, Panasonic JU-475-2.AGG (jumper > AX makes density select on pin 2 be latched when drive is selected, > BX/CX/JX determine if speed is determined by density select or is > fixed, and 1M forces it to ignore the density select signal on pin 2), > and Fuji FDD5883AOK (Toshiba) which has a jumper from pin 2 to ground > labelled "DD" for double density and described as disabling HD (jumpers > DE/DX are described as to set the speed according to the density, or > fixed). > > Think about this: All HD-capable 5.25" drives need a way to set the > density (by changing the write current) for either 300 oersted media or > 600 oersted media. The drive has no way to tell on its own. Therefore > there must be some signal defined to do this. AT controllers can write > both densities at 360 rpm (they just use a 300kbps clock instead of a > 250kbps clock), so they don't actually need to change the speed. > Therefore the signal previously unused (or, rarely, used in > non-standard vendor-dependant ways) on pin 2 is the density signal; > using it to reduce the speed is an optional extra. > > Your FD55 happens to have a jumper fitted to make the speed change when > you change the density, that's all. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York You have mis-read the table. Pin 2 can only change the speed to 300 RPM by lowering pin 2, with pin 2 high no matter what the drive runs at 360 RPM. The density mode can be high with pin 2 high or low with pin 2 high depending on jumpering. The one and only standard the document gives for pin 2 is speed change. All of the original AT controllers required two speed drives. Later controllers added the 300K transfers. Randy www.s100-manuals.com Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 14 13:36:37 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:36:37 -0500 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 References: Message-ID: <002301c528cd$23bfdb70$a3881442@r2p0s6> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > So anybody as a VDP-80? Until I read about it I've never head of it... > > They're very rare. I know less than a handful of people than own one. > The Computer History Museum has a VDP-40. I've got a VDP-80 here that's in a little sorry shape... CRT problems, cracked lid, few keys missing off kb etc... I can look for some docs and pics if needed. Also got a VDP-44 here that works alot better. - Mike PS. +1 to 39ers. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 13:33:42 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:33:42 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <007a01c528b4$b4a0f980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> <423546B8.20507@gjcp.net> <007a01c528b4$b4a0f980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I'm 58, add me. I also had trouble replying the first tiem. My first computer was a Litton 1251 400K drum machine in 1983, bought surplus from the State of Oregon for $25. Second was a Xerox 820 II and then a Rainbow. And so it grew.... -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 13:42:47 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:42:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Timex SC-01 Speech Synthesiser In-Reply-To: <200503062329.j26NT47U032975@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050314194247.33882.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Glen, I might have something somewhere, but I couldn't put my fingers on it right now.. I remember taking the source for the manuals and backing them up to Floppy in the late 80's. I don't remember if I wrote the manuals on the PC I was using, or the Imsai 8080 (8" Z-80 CPM), OR the MS-DOS Clone we used for awhile.. If it's on the PC or the Clone, I might have the files still. But, I think that Stewart kept the source to that manual on the IMSAI. Stewart is still in business, and he might still have the information. Have you tried going to www.zebrasystems.com ? I remember that the software consisted of a Binary Driver that did text to speech conversions. It was contained in REM statements at the beginning of the program, and I would pass the text to it for parsing by poking values into a memory area, which would then be sent to the Synthesiser for output after CALLing the routine. It's been a LONG time.. LOL! I didn't write the text to speech algorithim. Stewart did that. I just did the UI, and wrote the manual for it. I'm not sure I have the source for that seperate from a TS1000/ZX-81 Cassette. And I never kept one for myself. I still have a Speech Pak for the Coco (which we made for Spectrum Projects), with the software... But, I never kept one of the Timex Boards. Regards, Al > Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:06:39 -0500 > From: "Glen Goodwin" > Subject: SC-01 Votrax > > Al -- do you have any documentation for the ZX81/TS1000 > version? I have both boards but no docs for the ZX81 > version. > > Regards -- > > Glen > 0/0 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From jec at jcosper.com Mon Mar 14 13:50:20 2005 From: jec at jcosper.com (James E Cosper) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:50:20 -0700 Subject: Age Message-ID: <200503141249911.SM00113@work3> Add another one to: 40 - 44: James. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 14 13:51:18 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:51:18 -0500 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working > From: "Paul Koning" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working > I couldnt agree more. QIC-80 (including Travan) and QIC-2000 are a > nightmare. The same goes for DAT > Reel-to-reel and 3480/3490 are the best I've worked with, closely followed > by DC600. > The reason (for me) that DC600 is second best, is that the error recovery is > much easier > > Nico > About a year or so ago I restored over 100 Colorado 120mb QIC tapes used from 1990-1994 (over 10 years old and not recorded with my drive) without a single error on any of them. I find the old QIC 120mb tapes to be highly reliable, but I think my Travan 1.6/3.2GB DITTO drive is a POS and have since quit using it. I have a couple DAT 2/4GB and 4/8GB drives that work ok, but I have only had them for a few years so I don't know how reliable they are over longer periods of time. Backing up to 16x DVD+R disks is much faster and cheaper, I wonder if I can read the files in 10 years. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 13:52:06 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> der Mouse replied to my description of PDP-10 byte addressing (0-36 bits) and someone else's claim that a byte is the smallest addressable unit of storage: > That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing an > object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that bytes of > any size *are* individually addressible. Any size from 0 to 36 bits. The problem with the "smallest addressable unit" definitition is that it would mean that the byte size of a PDP-10 is *only* zero bits, because that's the smallest. (Or one bit, if you can define it in a way to rule out the zero bits case.) Also, the MC68000 has bit-manipulation instructions that can address individual bits, but it is not considered to have one-bit bytes. Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 13:55:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:55:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "woodelf" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> I've always been looking at using a DSP chip for this job. >>I did expect to read parts of a track at a time and then >>reassemble them as condensed data. Chips like the Analog >>Devices 2181 have some 80Kbytes of onboard RAM. Although, >>it can't all be used for storage at the same time and >>some is needed for program space. These chips can be >>implemented with a real minimum of outside circuits. >>they even have a serial SPI that can be used to read >>disk data at higher speeds. These processor run at 30 MIPs >>plus. They can run some operations, such as data moving >>to arrays in single cycles, including updating of pointers. >>They can do as many as 5 operations in a single cycle. >> The can bootstrap from simple slowspeed EPROM of FLASH. >>One could easily connect one of these to that USB chip >>that someone pointer to earlier. >>Dwight >> >> >> >Look what you are doing is building a generic floppy disk controler. >The only high speed device what you use to sync the data/clock pulses >to the system cpu clock. The rest is software. I'd sooner use a CPLD >designed for generic bit sampling but a PIC would also work with >a digital data/clock seperator. Now would getting the people who do >cat-weasel create a USB version be a better goal? >Ben alias woodelf >PS. What about hard-sectored floppy disks, that too may need reading >too? Hi I think you are missing what I am saying. The SPI is just a shift register that takes an external clock. It can be programmed to automatically DMA transfer into memory. It is the perfect zero additional logic circuit to use. You don't need to build a data/clock separator or anything. Just sample the data. One could even make the output SPI provide write data. These chips are designed to load their programs from a single flash or EPROM so the entire hardware requirement is almost nothing. I see others on comp.os.cpm talk about using a 50MHz variant of a Z80. I think most miss the point. These DSP's are 30 MIPS+ not just 50 MHz clocks. They have enormous capabilities in a relatively small package. It was like they were designed for this project. You don't need to create a CPLD since the hardware part is already done for you. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 13:57:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:57:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <16949.51458.380000.796333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16949.51458.380000.796333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <39798.64.139.41.130.1110830243.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Paul wrote: > Maybe a good test is to look at program addresses. If those look like > byte addresses -- though often they will have alignment rules -- then > I'd call the beast byte addressable. By that test, Alpha and PDP-11 > clearly are, and PDP-10 and CDC 6000 clearly are not. (That assumes > von Neumann machines -- it doesn't help with Harvard machines.) The IBM 7030 Data Processing System (aka STRETCH) used 64-bit words, but used bit addressing for all integer and logical operations, and an instructions operated on one or more "digits" of from 1 to 8 bits, up to a total of 64 bits. However, it was generally considered by its developers to have an 8-bit "byte" due to using an 8-bit character encoding, and in fact that is the origin of the word "byte". Instructions were 32 or 64 bits, and the branch instructions addressed a half-word. Floating point instructions addressed a full word. The address field was in the same position in all instructions, but for the instructions that addressed words or half words the rightmost bit positions were "stolen" for other uses. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 14:05:18 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:05:18 -0700 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> Message-ID: <4235EE7E.7000100@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: >Backing up to 16x DVD+R disks is much faster and cheaper, I wonder if I can >read the files in 10 years. > > > Can you read them back in 10 minutes. For people doing backups don't forget to backup your brower data files too. I was just thinking of all the internet passwords and cookies around as well as addresses for email. Ben alias woodelf. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 14 14:16:49 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:16:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <200503142021.PAA19342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Also, the MC68000 has bit-manipulation instructions that can address > individual bits, but it is not considered to have one-bit bytes. The VAX likewise. But those take multiple operands which collectively name the bits to be operated on. The description of the -10 as I read it implied that there was a single object, defined by the hardware, which encapsulated the word address, bit number, and size, which sounds way too much like a bit address. (You could assemble such a thing for the VAX or the 68k, but the hardware wouldn't understand it; you'd have to pull it apart into individual operands for the instructions.) Now, it may be that I misunderstood the description of the PDP-10, and what it actually has is instructions like the VAX or 68k, in which case my point is a non-point. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Mar 14 14:36:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:36:03 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503142021.PAA19342@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16949.62899.133000.423239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Also, the MC68000 has bit-manipulation instructions that can >> address individual bits, but it is not considered to have one-bit >> bytes. der> ...The description der> of the -10 as I read it implied that there was a single object, der> defined by the hardware, which encapsulated the word address, der> bit number, and size, which sounds way too much like a bit der> address. ... I believe that's right. For that matter, the Burroughs 6800 has a somewhat similar mechanism (characters as a subsidiary datatype with hardware-defined character pointers). In both cases, you have a construct that consists of a word address and a byte-in-word address. So the part that describes the byte describes it as a piece of a given word, which is addressed by another part of the composite pointer. That's why those are still considered word addressed machines (36 and 48, respectively) -- the ability to pick a character out of the word is viewed as a secondary operation distinct from the primary memory addressing. paul From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 14 14:30:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:30:25 -0600 Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG><000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM><10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop><10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <000201c528d5$7f0c8840$9a3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:29 PM > You have mis-read the table. > > Pin 2 can only change the speed to 300 RPM by lowering pin 2, with pin 2 > high no matter what the drive runs at 360 RPM. > > The density mode can be high with pin 2 high or low with pin 2 high > depending on jumpering. > > The one and only standard the document gives for pin 2 is speed change. > > All of the original AT controllers required two speed drives. Later > controllers added the 300K transfers. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com I have now found references to more controllers/drives using pin 2 in a variety of ways. One controller seems to say it best calling pin 2 a general purpose controller pin. 2.88 mb controllers use it one way, some 1.44mb drives use it another, some 5.25" drives use it for one thing other another. I'll work up a description that warns people to carefully check the references for the drive controller pair to make sure any and all pins not defined by the SA400 are used the same for both. The only two pins not described in the SA400 standard that seems to have global acceptance are the 4th drive select and side select. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 14 14:40:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:40:13 -0600 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: References: <002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <20050308153832.Q96189@shell.lmi.net> <20050310171704.Y59692@shell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20050313074204.00a50350@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <33290.64.169.63.74.1110742618.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <4235F6AD.8030401@oldskool.org> Bj?rn wrote: > A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a I agree with this, but was it universal? For example, programming games for the Intellivision console involved 10-bit memory addresses referred to as "decels" (pronounced DEK-el). You hear decel this, decel that all the time in that niche. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 14 14:45:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:45:52 -0600 Subject: File format webopedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4235F800.2000404@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Just found a terrific resource: > > http://www.fileformat.info/ > > Has tons of information on file formats (mostly graphics, but also some > text and markup formats). Searchable, with links to specifications and > such. > > Might be useful when trying to decode an old file format you're not > familiar with. Resources I've found helpful with formats: http://www.wotsit.org/ Resources I've found helpful with multimedia formats (there is very little good info on multimedia formats out there): http://www.multimedia.cx/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 14:51:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:10 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 11:55 -0800, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "woodelf" > >Look what you are doing is building a generic floppy disk controler. > >The only high speed device what you use to sync the data/clock pulses > >to the system cpu clock. The rest is software. I'd sooner use a CPLD > >designed for generic bit sampling but a PIC would also work with > >a digital data/clock seperator. Now would getting the people who do > >cat-weasel create a USB version be a better goal? > >Ben alias woodelf > >PS. What about hard-sectored floppy disks, that too may need reading > >too? > > Hi > I think you are missing what I am saying. The SPI is just > a shift register that takes an external clock. It can be programmed > to automatically DMA transfer into memory. It is the perfect zero > additional logic circuit to use. You don't need to build a > data/clock separator or anything. Just sample the data. > One could even make the output SPI provide write data. These > chips are designed to load their programs from a single > flash or EPROM so the entire hardware requirement is almost > nothing. > I see others on comp.os.cpm talk about using a 50MHz variant > of a Z80. I think most miss the point. These DSP's are 30 MIPS+ > not just 50 MHz clocks. They have enormous capabilities in > a relatively small package. It was like they were designed for > this project. You don't need to create a CPLD since the hardware > part is already done for you. What about cost? (irrespective of how the device physically connects to the host machine) I forsee four goals to make it useful: o Cheap o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) o Easy / quick connectivity Catweasel seems to lose out on 1, 3, and 4 - and 2 isn't relevant in its case. Can't comment on how nice its software API is as I haven't looked at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level software would all be open source anyway!) Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): o Reading disks o Writing back a disk image o Decoding disk data on host machine o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy Happily, that's probably order of complexity too, easiest first :) (I am coming at this from a preservation point of view, rather than being able to create disk images for use with emulators, say) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 14:56:29 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:56:29 GMT Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$)" (Mar 14, 9:18) References: <200503141718.JAA24127@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10503142056.ZM9336@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 9:18, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Don't use heat sink grease. That has fillers to > make it thermally conductive. Use the clear gel stuff. > Dow Corning #4 works wonders and doesn't harm any of > the electrical stuff. I actually use SilGlyde that I > got at the automotive shop. It works quite well. I still wouldn't use silicon grease, because it creeps over time, and can cause all sorts of problems, often at some distance from where it was originally put. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Mar 14 14:57:06 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:57:06 -0500 (est) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <4235F6AD.8030401@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 14, 05 02:40:13 pm Message-ID: <200503142057.PAA24799@wordstock.com> And thusly Jim Leonard spake: > > I agree with this, but was it universal? For example, programming games for > the Intellivision console involved 10-bit memory addresses referred to as > "decels" (pronounced DEK-el). You hear decel this, decel that all the time in > that niche. But a memory address and the memory location are two different things... How much can you store at each memory location on an Intellivision? It may take 10 bits for the address but only be able to store 8 bits at each location. Just like the SuperCPU for the C64 - It gives you 24 bits for the memory address but you still can only store 8 bits at a single memory location. Cheers, Bryan Pope From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Mar 14 14:53:15 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:53:15 -0500 Subject: Age Message-ID: <01C528AE.116E77C0@H70.C223.tor.velocet.net> ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:41:42 -0500 From: "John Allain" Subject: Re: Age Let me point out that Jay had specifically mentioned this thread as one of the annoyingly off-topic ones. It's even worse now that people are off the track twice, not even keeping to the first diverted topic. John A. ---------------Reply: With all due respect to Jay and the moderators, I think it's a pretty unfriendly list if we're not even allowed to get to know a little about each other. I see that this thread is also on CCtech, so I assume that the moderators do deem it as on-topic; we're certainly all over ten years old, very much related to computers, and some of us are most definitely "classic"s. I suggest that we leave it up to Jay & the other moderators to let us know when a thread has strayed too far, and, when they do, act accordingly. mike BTW: Add me to the 59 year olds, if I'm not already there. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 15:13:43 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:13:43 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: Floppy drive pin 2 question?" (Mar 14, 14:30) References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> <000201c528d5$7f0c8840$9a3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <10503142113.ZM9383@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 14:30, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > 2.88 mb controllers use it one way, some 1.44mb drives use it another, some > 5.25" drives use it for one thing other another. 1.44MB drives, ie 3.5" drives, do not need to be told what density to use; they use the media sense to detect that from the holes in the diskette. Therefore if they use pin 2 at all, they usually use it to signal to the controller whether the media loaded is HD or DD. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 15:10:26 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:10:26 GMT Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: woodelf "Re: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy" (Mar 14, 12:19) References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> <200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <10503142110.ZM9366@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 12:19, woodelf wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > >By the "byte = addressing unit" definition? It's been a while since I > >had a PDP-8 (I had an -8/f but I long ago gave it to a collector much > >more serious than I), but I'm fairly sure the addressing unit was the > >12-bit word. > > > > > Addressing unit is WORDS... How ever text can and often was packed in 6 > bit nibbles? > The real gotya on the old machines... UPPER CASE ASCII ONLY. Who told you that? It's true of Teletype ASR33s, but not of the machines themselves. I've happily done things in mixed-case ASCII on my PDP-8/E. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bristol22 at softhome.net Mon Mar 14 15:30:04 2005 From: bristol22 at softhome.net (bristol22 at softhome.net) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:30:04 -0700 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> Message-ID: Teo Zenios writes: > Backing up to 16x DVD+R disks is much faster and cheaper, I wonder > if I can read the files in 10 years. I apologize if I am moving this off-topic, but archival longevity of media may be a good topic by itself for the computer preservationist. I have studied this quite a bit. My first conclusion, including from crude accelerated life and torture tests I made myself, is that the "100 year" claims we have all seen are baloney. A research article appeared in the German version of Q't magazine (unless I miss-spelled that), where they did some tests on raw error rate on just burned DVD+R media, using some $50,000 equipment. None of the media they tested had a low enough raw error rate to meet the requirements of the DVD+R standard. Yet they sell it. (Mitsubishi did the best.) Then there are many hobbiests looking at raw error rates on DVD media using Lite-On drives with firmware than can report on raw errors. My overall conclusion is that most DVD media on the market sold by no-names, and by the names Sony, Maxell, Memorex, 3M Imation, etc is not very good. These companies re-badge whaterver is cheapest this month from whatever factory. My least favorite factory is CMC Magnetics Corporatioin Europe. Next worst in my view are some Korean and Taiwanese factories (K-Well, In Young, Lead Data Great Quality GQ). TDK seems to be only advertised brand that makes their own and that you can actually buy in a USA retail store, unless the store carries Verbatim. I think Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi, Taiyo Yuden, and Mitsumi. Anyway, Pioneer and Verbatim consistently have low raw error rates. A low error rate when freshly burned gives greater margin that as the errors increase as the media ages, error correction can still take care of it. Also, these companies have better engineering about the life span of the organic dyes and such used in the data layer. So when I want it to last, I do this: 1) Use a good burner with low raw error rate after burn/read and good media-to-other-machine cross compatibility. I used to recommend the Pioneer DVR-105 and below, but the DVR-107 and DVR-108 are poor at this. Now I recommend BenQ DW1620 ($52) DVD+-RW double layer drive. Most burners have new firmware you can flash even if you bought it yesterday. A lot of the effort in the new firmware is decreasing the error rate on some media, so it is often worth flashing it. 2) My first choice of media is either Pioneer or Verbatim DVD-R, followed by DVD+R from the same two makers. Third choice brand is TDK. I don't trust much else. Double sided and double layer DVD are a little imature at this point. 3) The freeware Windoze program DVDinfo.exe will tell you who made your mysterious media (reads it off the media). E.g. MCC001 is made by Mitsubishi. 4) All RW media (DVD-RW DVD+RW CD-RW) have poor archival life. Think about it: with RW, instead of burning a pit in the data layer, you are fooling around with glossy or matte finish depending on how quickly a melted liquid re-freezes. Official tests, and my own tests, show poor life. A little sunlight-UV can erase it. 5) I don't burn more than 85% of the capacity of a DVD. DVDs are a sandwich, lexan (polycarbonate) on both sides, data layer chemistry in the middle. The spiral starts on the inside (opposite LP records). If you leave 3/4" unused at the outside edge, it will take longer before the Ozone and 02 and other environmental exposures that attack the data chemistry at the edges of the lexan sandwitch actually reach your data. So on a "4.7GB" disk which in real life could hold 4.3GB, I burn 3.8GB. 6) DVD-R or DVD+R is better than CD-R, because it is a sandwich. DVD also has stronger error correction. CD-R often dies from the label side, by getting bumped against the drive tray, the jewel case, a pen... The paint layer that protects your data on the label side is very thin and fragile. CD-R also die from chemical errosion from ozone, fingers, marking pens, etc on the label side. I write on them only in the center no-data area. DVDs, being a sandwich, don't have those problems. Richard Bristol (the same guy who recently asked for help reading his 9-track mag tapes) From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 15:38:50 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:38:50 -0800 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca><200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003d01c528de$3840f8c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Ah, I like my morning "serial" to be "byte-sized"..... All seriousness aside, here in California, the cultural and computing center of the universe (you're suppose to laugh at this point), a "byte" was always 8 bits, half-word was 16 bits (or a short-word) and a word was 32 bits (or a long-word). On a 64 bit machine a byte was still the same but a "word" doubled. But throughout the known universe a "nybble" (or nibble) was always 4 bits (reference: reality and the Computer Webopedia.....). Let the bludgeoning begin.... Best regards, Steven C. > Addressing unit is WORDS... How ever text can and often was packed in 6 > bit nibbles? > The real gotya on the old machines... UPPER CASE ASCII ONLY. > Ben alias woodelf From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 15:37:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:37:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) Message-ID: <200503142137.NAA24225@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Mar 14 2005, 9:18, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> Don't use heat sink grease. That has fillers to >> make it thermally conductive. Use the clear gel stuff. >> Dow Corning #4 works wonders and doesn't harm any of >> the electrical stuff. I actually use SilGlyde that I >> got at the automotive shop. It works quite well. > >I still wouldn't use silicon grease, because it creeps over time, and >can cause all sorts of problems, often at some distance from where it >was originally put. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Hi Yes, it does creep. I just wonder what problems you refer to. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 15:47:41 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:47:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> Message-ID: <53492.64.139.41.130.1110836861.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Richard wrote: > 4) All RW media (DVD-RW DVD+RW CD-RW) have poor archival life. > Think about it: with RW, instead of burning a pit in the data > layer, you are fooling around with glossy or matte finish > depending on how quickly a melted liquid re-freezes. Official > tests, and my own tests, show poor life. A little sunlight-UV > can erase it. It was my understanding (perhaps wrong?) that RW media uses a phase change to store the data, and that it takes significantly more energy to induce the phase change than to induce a chemical change in dye for write-once media. That's why it can't be written as quickly. If it really works that way, one would reasonably expect RW media to have *better* longevity than write-once media. So is my premise wrong? Does rewritable media not use a phase change? Or is the activation energy comparable or lower than that for write-once media? > My least favorite factory is CMC Magnetics They seem to make about the worst CD media, so it's unsurprising that they make poor DVD media. > I think Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from > the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi, Taiyo Yuden, and Mitsumi. By "Mistumi" you must have meant "Mitsui"? For CD media, Taiyo Yuden and Mitsui are definitely the best. > TDK seems to be only advertised brand that makes their own I used to buy TDK CD-R media at Costco because it was made by Taiyo-Yuden. Then they switched to CMC Magnetics, and after using one spindle of that (with >50% reject rate), I refuse to ever buy media from them again. I'm surprised that TDK would make their own DVD media when they don't make their own CD-R media. More likely they're contracting out manufacture and getting the vendor to mark the metadata as TDK. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 15:52:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> Message-ID: <53861.64.139.41.130.1110837127.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Richard wrote: > My first conclusion, including > from crude accelerated life and torture tests I made myself, is > that the "100 year" claims we have all seen are baloney. The only claim of 100 years I've seen from a reputable vendor was Kodak for their gold CD-R media (not the later gold/silver alloy stuff), and it was backed up by real laboratory testing including accelerated aging. The 100 years was actually fairly conservative. The silver crap can't possibly last anywhere near 100 years; it only takes a few years for oxygen to seep through and oxidizie it enough for a measurably higher error rate. Eventually the entire disk will oxidize enough to be unreadable. Doesn't happen to gold media. Unfortunately gold CD-Rs have gotten really expensive, and gold DVD media doesn't seem to be available in speeds faster than 2x. Taiyo-Yuden claimed that the slightly lower reflectivity of gold (vs. unoxidized silver) together with the lower reflectivity of the dyes used for 4x and faster media made use of gold unworkable. Eric From tomj at wps.com Mon Mar 14 15:56:20 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:56:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes In-Reply-To: <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050314134715.R682@localhost> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Any size from 0 to 36 bits. Yeah, why is everyone so hung up on defining "byte"? It's not like it's part of some natural order. It's whatever the designers made up off the top of their head for some particular task. It's utterly arbitrary. There's varied interaction with the 'character' unit over time, but the two are not the same. Sometimes they coincide; often they do not. And with UNICODE, who cares any more? Byte don't mean shit no more, it's just an historic leftover. * When you ask how many bits in a byte, you have to ask "for what machine?". 6-bit characters encompass the old ITA2 (aka "baudot") teleprinter codes, which were five bits (*) plus a state maintained in parallel in both sender and receiver (aka FIGS and LTRS). Five bits fits the roman alphabet 26 letters plus a few punctuation characters. (*) Rarely did anyone people before approx. WWII consider the five time intervals that make up the data portion of a telegraph/teletype character to be "bits". That's a modern interpretation. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 15:46:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:46:59 GMT Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: Floppy drive pin 2 question?" (Mar 14, 13:29) References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <10503142146.ZM9454@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 13:29, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > You have mis-read the table. > > Pin 2 can only change the speed to 300 RPM by lowering pin 2, with pin 2 > high no matter what the drive runs at 360 RPM. I have not misread the table. The point is that pin 2 controls the density, no matter how you set the "LG" jumper, and changing the density may or may not change the speed, depending on the jumper at "I". > The density mode can be high with pin 2 high or low with pin 2 high > depending on jumpering. But either way, changing its state changes the density, but not necessarily the speed. > The one and only standard the document gives for pin 2 is speed change. Read it again. I just did. It does not say that anywhere in the text, the tables, or diagrams. What it does say or show, in several places, is that the default setting is "LG" and "I" not fitted, and that that condition makes pin 2 control the change from normal density to high, and does not change the speed. It also says in the table that "LG" determines how pin 2 controls the density, and that "I" controls whether the speed changes *when the density changes*. I've also found on my system a TEAC document for the FD505. It clearly states that pin 2 is the "HD IN" density select input. And a document from Don Maslin's archive that describes the pins and jumpers for an "FD-55GFR" (but it doesn't say which suffix). It, too, clearly says that pin 2 is the density select, that "LG" controls the polarity of the density select, and that "I" and "IS" control how this affects the speed ("I" to determine if the speed changes at all, in response to density changes, and "IS" controls whether that is latched once the drive is selected). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 15:59:57 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:59:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4234E23F.9080404@allwest.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <4234E23F.9080404@allwest.net> Message-ID: <20050314135922.R57617@shell.lmi.net> (55-59) ++; From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 14 16:09:47 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:09:47 +0100 Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working References: Message-ID: <002201c528e2$88e07ae0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > Are you sure you're not thinking of Archive? I find more Archive 2150S > drives than anything else in old machines. > FWIW, I've never seen Archives on IBM (I suppose you are thinking of AS/400, S/36 and the likes), but loads of Tandbergs. Nico From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Mar 14 16:11:06 2005 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:11:06 -0600 Subject: AGE Message-ID: 53 Maybe I should try to make my wife let me buy that many computers for my birthday. Mike From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 14 16:03:23 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:03:23 GMT Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$)" (Mar 14, 13:37) References: <200503142137.NAA24225@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10503142203.ZM9512@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 14 2005, 13:37, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >I still wouldn't use silicon grease, because it creeps over time, and > >can cause all sorts of problems, often at some distance from where it > >was originally put. > Yes, it does creep. I just wonder what problems you refer to. Bad contacts in sockets, accumulation of dust and airborne detritus, and problems resoldering or modifying boards when they get older. It's the lighter silicones that cause the problems, though, and if you can find a modern grease that has a smaller spread of molecular weights, the problem will be greatly reduced. The difficulty is in getting rid of the silicones, as they don't wash off, and flow into holes especially when you heat them up. I used to do a lot of commercial repairs, especially on 1980s micros, and I used to hate the ones where people had put gobs of heatsink compund on socketed chips. The compound contains lots of light silicones, which used to get into the sockets and cause bad connections, and then it was a pain to remove the socket and solder in a new one. Of course, the worst were the ones drenched in "contact cleaner" and WD40. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bristol22 at softhome.net Mon Mar 14 16:14:38 2005 From: bristol22 at softhome.net (bristol22 at softhome.net) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:14:38 -0700 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge Message-ID: Richard wrote: > 4) All RW media (DVD-RW DVD+RW CD-RW) have poor archival life. > Think about it: with RW, instead of burning a pit in the data > layer, you are fooling around with glossy or matte finish > depending on how quickly a melted liquid re-freezes. Official > tests, and my own tests, show poor life. A little sunlight-UV > can erase it. Eric wrote: >It was my understanding (perhaps wrong?) that RW media uses a phase >change to store the data, and that it takes significantly more energy >to induce the phase change than to induce a chemical change in dye >for write-once media. That's why it can't be written as quickly. >If it really works that way, one would reasonably expect RW media to >have *better* longevity than write-once media. >So is my premise wrong? Does rewritable media not use a phase change? >Or is the activation energy comparable or lower than that for write-once >media? I don't know about activation energy. Sorry. But the resultant RW disk is less reliable, and has shorter archival life. Richard: > My least favorite factory is CMC Magnetics Eric: >They seem to make about the worst CD media, so it's unsurprising >that they make poor DVD media. Richard: > I think Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from > the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi, Taiyo Yuden, and Mitsumi. Eric: >By "Mistumi" you must have meant "Mitsui"? For CD media, Taiyo Yuden >and Mitsui are definitely the best. Richard: Yes, I meant Mitsui. It was a typo. Mitsumi is I think a maker of floppy disk drives in Japan, and not media. Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden make good media, and sell organic dyes and other chemicals to many of the lesser media making companies. Richard: > TDK seems to be only advertised brand that makes their own Eric: >I used to buy TDK CD-R media at Costco because it was made by >Taiyo-Yuden. Then they switched to CMC Magnetics, and after >using one spindle of that (with >50% reject rate), I refuse to >ever buy media from them again. >I'm surprised that TDK would make their own DVD media when they don't >make their own CD-R media. More likely they're contracting out >manufacture and getting the vendor to mark the metadata as TDK. >Eric Richard: I'm sorry to hear that. I know their media code says TDK, but you are correct, maybe they didn't make it. But it tested well. ========== ADDITION TO RICHARD's PREVIOUS POST ===== In my original message, I forgot to add: ... 7) If you really care about it's archival life, hedge your bets by burning two copies, on DIFFERENT media. Select two good media types made by different companies. Each may have, just a guess, a 10% chance of self-destructing within 20 years. This would be because of a design or implimentation mistake. For example perhaps the sandwich adheasive includes a chemical that eventually reacts badly with the data, or some impurity in manufacturing at that time. If the two media are very different, their probabilty of failure approaches statistical indpendence; and if independent then the chance that both are unreadable would approach 0.1 * 0.1 or only a 1% chance. Richard Bristol bristol22 [at] softhome [dot] net From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 14 16:16:15 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:16:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Programming and OS's In-Reply-To: <4235D2EE.6030405@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 14, 2005 11:07:42 AM Message-ID: <20050314221616.775EA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > Which C Standard? C89? That mandates the following: > > a char type, minimum of 8 bits > > Now they default to bloat or C++ or the 'NEW' standard. Well, C++ *isn't* C. But what do you mean by "bloat" or "NEW" standard? The only new standard for C is ANSI C99 (which is already six years old now). > > You can certainly have a signed char and an unsigned char, but just a > > plain "char" would give you one of the other (implementation detail). > > I read the C-bible once ... C was clean on the PDP-11 but not so any more. An example? I for one find pre-ANSI C to be pretty horrid stuff myself. > What I did notice is how improved basic hardware has defined the basic > language one programmed in. 8080/8088 languages all have seem to very > verbose and very primitve with very few operations. PL/M-8080 and Um? Verbose and few operations? Then again, my own eperiences with langauges on 8-bit machines was limited to BASIC and Assembly. I've only used higher level languages on 16bit machines or higher (starting with 8088 [1] based systems). -spc (Been using 32-bit systems now for ... um ... 16 years? Yikes!) [1] Yes, hardware wise the 8088 is an 8-bit machine, but software wise it could be treated as a 16-bit machine. A *slow* 16-bit machine, but a 16-bit machine nonetheless. I was always more into software than hardware. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 16:16:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:16:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503142216.OAA24238@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 11:55 -0800, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >From: "woodelf" >> >Look what you are doing is building a generic floppy disk controler. >> >The only high speed device what you use to sync the data/clock pulses >> >to the system cpu clock. The rest is software. I'd sooner use a CPLD >> >designed for generic bit sampling but a PIC would also work with >> >a digital data/clock seperator. Now would getting the people who do >> >cat-weasel create a USB version be a better goal? >> >Ben alias woodelf >> >PS. What about hard-sectored floppy disks, that too may need reading >> >too? >> >> Hi >> I think you are missing what I am saying. The SPI is just >> a shift register that takes an external clock. It can be programmed >> to automatically DMA transfer into memory. It is the perfect zero >> additional logic circuit to use. You don't need to build a >> data/clock separator or anything. Just sample the data. >> One could even make the output SPI provide write data. These >> chips are designed to load their programs from a single >> flash or EPROM so the entire hardware requirement is almost >> nothing. >> I see others on comp.os.cpm talk about using a 50MHz variant >> of a Z80. I think most miss the point. These DSP's are 30 MIPS+ >> not just 50 MHz clocks. They have enormous capabilities in >> a relatively small package. It was like they were designed for >> this project. You don't need to create a CPLD since the hardware >> part is already done for you. > >What about cost? (irrespective of how the device physically connects to >the host machine) > >I forsee four goals to make it useful: > > o Cheap Hi When one considers how much hardware one saves over a PIC solution, the DSP is cheap. They are in the $10 range. > o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. A little tough here. 50 mil spaces surface mount. Some soldering skills required. > o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) No issue here. > o Easy / quick connectivity Although, most computers come with a parallel port, using the port on a newer XP for other than normal purposes may be a pain. > >Catweasel seems to lose out on 1, 3, and 4 - and 2 isn't relevant in its >case. Can't comment on how nice its software API is as I haven't looked >at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with >something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level >software would all be open source anyway!) > >Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have >parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me >to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). > >Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): > > o Reading disks Should be easy. > o Writing back a disk image I see only minor issues here ( pre-comp ) > o Decoding disk data on host machine Just requires some one to do it. > o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy If one can do the above, this one comes along, almost for free. Later Dwight > >Happily, that's probably order of complexity too, easiest first :) (I am >coming at this from a preservation point of view, rather than being able >to create disk images for use with emulators, say) > >cheers > >Jules > > From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 14 16:17:05 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:17:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Byte sizes In-Reply-To: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 der Mouse wrote: > >> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a > >> system. > > Well, it sounds reasonable, but probably isn't the most useful, as it > would mean that, for example, the PDP-8 had 12-bit bytes. > > > The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. > > The smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. > > A byte is, as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are > > stored in a word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a > > PDP-10, you have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and > > a bit pointer, and byte size. > > That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing an > object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that bytes of > any size *are* individually addressible. > > Or have I misunderstood? Well, yes and no. Please note that there are special instructions to deal with bytes in the PDP-10. These instructions can deal with objects of arbitrary size (well, 0 to 36 bits anyway). However, most instructions do not deal with bytes, and thus will not play with the bit field stuff, and only deal with a simple plain address, which address a 36 bit word. Among these instructions are such things as a normal MOVE instruction. So these byte pointers are only handled by a few special instructions, that deal with bytes. For all other purposes, the PDP-10 only deal with words, which always are 36 bits. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 16:17:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:17:09 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050314135922.R57617@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <4234E23F.9080404@allwest.net> <20050314135922.R57617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1110838629.10973.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 13:59 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > (55-59) ++; You're -3 ? From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 14 16:25:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:25:49 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <53492.64.139.41.130.1110836861.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> <53492.64.139.41.130.1110836861.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42360F6D.6050708@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > It was my understanding (perhaps wrong?) that RW media uses a phase > change to store the data, and that it takes significantly more energy > to induce the phase change than to induce a chemical change in dye > for write-once media. That's why it can't be written as quickly. > If it really works that way, one would reasonably expect RW media to > have *better* longevity than write-once media. Based on my experience, this isn't true by a longshot. After no less than three occaisions where I have lost data stored on DVD-RW media (all three with different media brands), I stopped doing it. I only use rewritable media for testing burns now, never for archival storage. As for the topic of "how long does DVD-R media last?", I feel it's irrelevant because newer, popular standards come along every decade and we retrofit our data to meet them as it inevitably grows. From personal experience: 1985: Stored my data on about 100 360K DSDD floppies 1990: Purchased computer with 3.5" DSHD drive; copied my 360K floppies to about 25 DSHD disks. 1993: Data grown to 200 DSHD floppies; stored all of them on single QIC tape. 1996: Data grown to 4 QIC tapes; stored all four onto two CDRs. 2002: Data grown to 200 CDRs (blame broadband!); spent a week merging duplicates and deleting redundant info, recompressing to more optimal formats, burnt them onto ~30 DVD-Rs. 2005: Data grown to 200 DVD-Rs; archival storage is 3-4 DLT7000 tapes. For extra paranoia, I never threw out any of the older medium (although I do recycle the disks as necessary, like when I need a spare 3.5" to make a boot disk or something). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 16:27:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:27:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050314141501.P57617@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I have tried to research the issue further but can I find no authoritative > references to pin 2 being anything but an RPM select line. > Other websites like mine do claim it is use for write current but provide no > references to show it. > If anyone has an authoritative reference stating it was not used to select > rotational speed I will be happy to change my website stating that it does > have multiple uses. The first ATs (FROM IBM), and the IBM AT Technical Reference Manual, are single speed drives with a controller capable of THREE data transfer rates: 250K for use with 360K drive (300 RPM) 300K for use with 360K disks in 1.2M drive (360 RPM) 500K for use with 1.2M disks in 1.2M drive (360 RPM) That 300K data transfer rate is NOT needed for a two speed drive. (Which the first IBM ATs DID NOT HAVE) With a 300K and a 500K data transfer rate, a two speed drive is not needed. Many/most? companies OTHER THAN IBM used a two speed drive, and used the write current/density select line to control the speed. > Until then I have changed my site to say other sites state otherwise but > include hyper-links to the manufacturer docs stating that it is for two > speed drives (ala early IBM AT). > > Please note I am not looking for what people remember it does but actual > documents from a manufacturer. I tested it with a TEAC FD-55GFR and sure > enough it slowed the RPM when grounded. Try one of the drives that IBM sold (which did NOT include TEAC FD-55GFR) BTW, do you know the difference between a 55GFR and a 55G? It appears to be whether or not it supports 300RPM ! or early Mitsubishi 4854 1.2M (but not the EARLIEST, which had a 50 pin connector) IBM AT Technical Reference Manual not official enough? Howzbout source code of the BIOS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Mar 14 16:28:36 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:28:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Byte sizes In-Reply-To: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 woodelf wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > >Well, it sounds reasonable, but probably isn't the most useful, as it > >would mean that, for example, the PDP-8 had 12-bit bytes. > > > > > > > Umm words... it has six bit bytes. I think the lack of 18 bit byte > cpu's has limited > the use of 9 bit bytes. ( No comment from any 36 bitters ) What, the PDP-8? No, it don't have six bit bytes. The architecture don't have any byte view (unless you count the BSW instruction in the 8/e and newer, which might be argued as a byte instruction). Software implemented bytes in various ways on the PDP-8. You have sixbit, 8 bit, and 12 bit bytes. OS/8 for instance packs 3 8-bit bytes in two 12-bit words. > >>The PDP-10 is an excellent example of when this isn't true. > >>The smallest addressable unit is a word, which is 36 bits. > >>A byte is, as noted, anything between 0 and 36 bits. Bytes are > >>stored in a word, as many as can be fitted. To access bytes on a > >>PDP-10, you have a byte pointer, which consist of a word address, and > >>a bit pointer, and byte size. > >> > >> > > > >That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing an > >object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that bytes of > >any size *are* individually addressible. > >Or have I misunderstood? > > > I belive so, but I have not programmed a 10. I suspect this is in > regards to string operations > rather say accessing character sized data data. Two different things. No difference between a string, or character sized data. Character sized data layed out in sequence becomes a string. The instruction that deals with bytes only handles one byte at a time. Chug through several characters and you have processed a string. > >>The fact that people today seem to believe that byte addressable is > >>the only possible thing, along with a byte being 8 bits, is plain and > >>simply because they haven't seen any other. > >> > >> > Well in most cases a byte is a unsigned 1/2 half word. I still like view > of the PDP-11 a byte > is signed data. I think the lack of real byte access has forced the C > standard to have unsigned > bytes because the machines ( 8080,Z80) can't handle real bytes . Huh? What are you talking about??? All these machines (as well as most anything past 1960) uses 2-complement, so there is no need to differentiate between signed and unsigned, it's just a matter of interpretation. The one time it makes a difference is when checking results, and the PDP-11 have both signed and unsigned branch conditions, so it don't view a byte as either one or the other. It's up to the programmer to choose. The same with a Z80. I would assume that the 8080 also have the same status flags, and thus you can pick wether you want to play signed or unsigned at will. And a byte on a PDP-11 is not 1/2 half word, but just a half word. A word is 16 bits. That's why, on a VAX, a 32-bit thing is called a longword. But for some reason some other manufacturers decided to call 32 bits a word, so 16 bits became a "half word", but let's keep that away from the PDP-11, please. No revisionst stuff here. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Mon Mar 14 10:01:39 2005 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:01:39 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> I'm 51... I think the problem with us old'ens is that there is so much more to write about than the young'ens -- page after page of ancient computer hardware and obsolete operating systems :-) Bill McDermith From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Mar 14 10:59:38 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:59:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503100428.XAA4695310@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <200503141659.LAA5032406@shell.TheWorld.com> >Megan, if you are reading this, might it be possible to expand the number >of units to 128 or even 256? I seem to see at least one bit that is not >being used and maybe even two bits. Depends... where are you talking about getting the two bits? >I know that naming would be a problem - what about: > >D00 -> D77: >for the 128 unit device drivers, then add 8 more >"hex" values to the last RAD50 character >D08: -> D0F: >... >D78: -> D7F: >for the 256 unit device drivers, then add 16 more >values to the last RAD50 character >D0G: -> D0V: >... >D7G: -> D7V: uggh... I'd not want to see go this route. >Since all the device names are RAD50, numbering is not really a problem. >By keeping the middle character as an octal value, the PNAME2 table >should still be happy. You've got me on that, I would have to look at the code to see why PNAME2 is an issue. As for the number of disks... I find 64 unwieldy... I'd hate to have to worry about 2 or 4 times that number on RT. I personally would rather see RT be able to natively handle 32-bit blocks numbers before it went this route... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Mar 14 11:44:12 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:44:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions References: <200503110354.WAA4781060@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <200503141744.MAA5053425@shell.TheWorld.com> >I always though that the maximum was about 32 devices, >so I guess I will need to check. ... in Bstrap.mac: 90$: CMP R3,#> ;More than 40. handlers here? BHIS 110$ ;Yes, can't remember any more >Also, although the system device is LOADed at boot time, >the SHOW DEVICE command shows "Resident" as the actual >status - which I agree means that it can't be UNLOADed. Yes, 'Resident' is determined when the handler base address is above the base of RMON. >Finally, as discussed elsewhere, even normal "properly >written programs" can't .Fetch a device driver if it is >being run as a "system" or "foreground" job. I'll have to check on this... my RTEFTP program may be using tricks to accomplish it. I know it does it when running virtual or under VBGEXE (with the /BUFF:n option for SRUN or FRUN) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bv at norbionics.com Mon Mar 14 14:47:01 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:47:01 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:26:23 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 Bj?rn wrote: > >> >> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a >> system. > > Nonsense! Where did you get that? From Donald Knuth. > > Bah. A sixbit character can very well be a byte, it's just a question of > if you choose to call it that. > Byte addressable is not usable as a definition of a byte. It does not matter if you do not find it usable, as long as it IS the traditional definition. The PDP 10 came long after it had been established. The most interesting byte is the one Knuth used in his abstract MIX machine, which he came up with when he was here in Oslo. To drive home the point that bytes were not dependent upon any particular hardware implementation, he defined it as able to hold unspecified information, but at least 100 different values. I would have thought most people here had read his "Fundamental Algorithms"? Come to think of it, I suppose I once built a computer with 1-bit bytes. Early TTL chips were expensive for a student, so the beast was serial with a new-fangled LSI 512-bit circular shift register as the memory. Immediately afterwards Intel announced the 4004... -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Mon Mar 14 14:47:01 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:47:01 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:26:23 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 Bj?rn wrote: > >> >> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a >> system. > > Nonsense! Where did you get that? From Donald Knuth. > > Bah. A sixbit character can very well be a byte, it's just a question of > if you choose to call it that. > Byte addressable is not usable as a definition of a byte. It does not matter if you do not find it usable, as long as it IS the traditional definition. The PDP 10 came long after it had been established. The most interesting byte is the one Knuth used in his abstract MIX machine, which he came up with when he was here in Oslo. To drive home the point that bytes were not dependent upon any particular hardware implementation, he defined it as able to hold unspecified information, but at least 100 different values. I would have thought most people here had read his "Fundamental Algorithms"? Come to think of it, I suppose I once built a computer with 1-bit bytes. Early TTL chips were expensive for a student, so the beast was serial with a new-fangled LSI 512-bit circular shift register as the memory. Immediately afterwards Intel announced the 4004... -- Bj?rn From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Mar 14 14:49:24 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:49:24 -0500 Subject: Old 9-track Tar Tapes References: Message-ID: <4235F8D4.513327FD@mindspring.com> bristol22 at softhome.net wrote: > > I have some 9-track mag tapes, mostly 1600bpi but a couple are 800bpi > or 6250bpi. They were made under 4.2BSD Unix on a DEC Vax 11/780 in > about 1986. They are "tar" tapes, blocking factor 20. If you can't get anyone else to do it, I might be able to help you out. SteveRob steerex [at] mindspring [dot] com From bv at norbionics.com Mon Mar 14 14:53:43 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:53:43 +0100 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:46:31 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Gordon JC Pearce" >> > I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and > here >> > are the results. >> >> >> >> Did you calculate the ages of those of us who did not directly express > them? >> > > Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it > in > fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. > Please forgive me :-) > OK, add me for the 1947 bunch. Excellent vintage in most areas, by the way. And if you want high precision, it is late February. Counter recently incremented. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Mon Mar 14 14:53:43 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:53:43 +0100 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <42349BBD.5060201@gjcp.net> <004101c52859$2cf7b9c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:46:31 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Gordon JC Pearce" >> > I've now collated the results of my small enquiry regarding age, and > here >> > are the results. >> >> >> >> Did you calculate the ages of those of us who did not directly express > them? >> > > Yes, as far as possible. Some didnt give their birthday or expressed it > in > fortnights or just presented a year. Some might therefore be 1 year off. > Please forgive me :-) > OK, add me for the 1947 bunch. Excellent vintage in most areas, by the way. And if you want high precision, it is late February. Counter recently incremented. -- Bj?rn From spc at conman.org Mon Mar 14 16:38:58 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:38:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <1110838629.10973.56.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 14, 2005 10:17:09 PM Message-ID: <20050314223858.9CA2273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 13:59 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > (55-59) ++; > > You're -3 ? It's invalid C: a.c:9: invalid lvalue in increment -spc (when did I turn 36?) From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 15:46:53 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:46:53 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:10 +0000, Jules Richardson > > What about cost? (irrespective of how the device physically connects to > the host machine) > > I forsee four goals to make it useful: > > o Cheap > o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. > o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) > o Easy / quick connectivity > > Catweasel seems to lose out on 1, 3, and 4 - and 2 isn't relevant in its > case. Can't comment on how nice its software API is as I haven't looked > at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with > something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level > software would all be open source anyway!) > > Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have > parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me > to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). > > Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): > > o Reading disks > o Writing back a disk image > o Decoding disk data on host machine > o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy > > Happily, that's probably order of complexity too, easiest first :) (I am > coming at this from a preservation point of view, rather than being able > to create disk images for use with emulators, say) Luckly I have experience with both ADSP2181 and a CPLD/FPGA. I built my own little board to read out the internal memory from an ADSP2181, designed signal generation board with ADSP2181, and wrote thousands of lines of ADSP2181 code. On the other hand, I built a QBUS MSCP SCSI with Xilinx CPLD and now working on an Altera CPLD. I didn't read much of floppy controller but in my preliminary opinion, CPLD/FPGA is a better fit. If you use a 2181 here, you utilize only the (synchronous) serial port which can be easily built with a CPLD. A CPLD on parallel port has another advantage, that you might be able to eliminate a microcontroller which I guess is needed for a USB sollution. I don't have knowledge of USB so please correct me if I am wrong. vax, 9000 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 16:47:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <42360F6D.6050708@oldskool.org> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2D7D@sbs.jdfogg.com> <3.0.6.32.20050313092806.00a54100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16949.42401.327000.80879@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c528af$edd82340$2101a8c0@finans> <00e101c528cf$39a71640$ea781941@game> <53492.64.139.41.130.1110836861.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42360F6D.6050708@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <61212.64.139.41.130.1110840425.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > It was my understanding (perhaps wrong?) that RW media uses a phase > change to store the data, and that it takes significantly more energy > to induce the phase change than to induce a chemical change in dye > for write-once media. That's why it can't be written as quickly. > If it really works that way, one would reasonably expect RW media to > have *better* longevity than write-once media. Jim wrote: > Based on my experience, this isn't true by a longshot. I'm not disputing your experience or those of others. I'm just trying to understand *why* it has poor longevity, when the scant information I have about how it works suggests that it should be better. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 16:47:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:47:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <200503141742.JAA24133@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503141742.JAA24133@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050314144632.O57617@shell.lmi.net> > >New maxim: when all else fails, re-seat. ... as has almost always been the maxim for Apple ]['s From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Mon Mar 14 16:51:57 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:51:57 +0100 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge References: Message-ID: <001e01c528e8$6d145560$2101a8c0@finans> > Richard: > > I think Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from > > the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi, Taiyo Yuden, and Mitsumi. I've had long discussions with an archival specialist here in Denmark on the topic of what media to use for what purpose. The unanimous result was, that "archival copying" is a never ending job. One can always quarrel about the life of a media, but in practice this is a fight about the emperors beard : it is useles. The fact is, that the development of drives is so quick, that even if you _could_ save a tape or disk or CD or whatever for 30 years, you wouldnt find the proper drive, and even if you did, it wouldnt be supported anymore. Let's go back 30 years; what were the dominant media at that time ? 1600 bpi reel-to-reel tapes, 7.25 or 30 MB harddisk (IBM 2311/2314), and 8" floppy discs. Some of my customers _still_ accept 8" disks and reels for financial transactions. In my experience, the conclusion is that the more "modern" the media, the shorter the life span, e.g. 5.25" floppies : probably late 70's to mid 90'. Especially streamer tapes are a problem; some drives are only 1 generation backward compatible for writing, and maybe 3 or 4 for reading. As the capacity doubles more or less each year, the horror scenario is that you cannot read your own tapes after 3-4 years because of drive incompatibility. Nico From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 16:51:45 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking Motorola S38FC012PIO2 ($$$ Bounty! $$$) Message-ID: <200503142251.OAA24248@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" ---snip--- > >Bad contacts in sockets, accumulation of dust and airborne detritus, >and problems resoldering or modifying boards when they get older. It's >the lighter silicones that cause the problems, though, and if you >can find a modern grease that has a smaller spread of molecular >weights, the problem will be greatly reduced. The difficulty is in >getting rid of the silicones, as they don't wash off, and flow into >holes especially when you heat them up. Hi Silicon grease has a negative coefficient over much of the normal temperature range. I actually gets thicker with heat not the other way around. > >I used to do a lot of commercial repairs, especially on 1980s micros, >and I used to hate the ones where people had put gobs of heatsink >compund on socketed chips. The compound contains lots of light >silicones, which used to get into the sockets and cause bad >connections, and then it was a pain to remove the socket and solder in >a new one. Of course, the worst were the ones drenched in "contact >cleaner" and WD40. Don't confuse with heat sink compound. I actually put silicon grease into sockets to improve contact. It is used by manufactures in many places that require improved contact. Heat sink compound is nasty stuff. It is not what I'm talking about. I have sockets that have 10-20 years of trouble free function with silicon grease in them. From experiments that I did years ago when working for Intel, silicon grease not only works well on sockets and edge connectors, it help switches as well. Especially those that have particularly high or low current. In the high current ones it helps to prevent arcing. The improved contact reduces contact heating. In the low current ones it reduces the need for contact scrubbing. About the only bad thing I can think of is that one might get it on the surface of a floppy disk. Any grease on the surface usually makes writing the disk problematic. I've never seen DC#4 cause a bad contact. I've seen many cases where it has improved it enough that problems of contact over heating are no longer an issue ( Molex connectors in pinball machines ). WD40 contains all kinds of junk. I've never had troubles soldering when the joint had silicon grease ( DC#4 ) on it. In fact, most cases, it almost works as well a flux by keeping the oxidation down ( Also done while at Intel ). The only reason Intel didn't use it after the experiments I did was because they feared that pre-labled parts would get this on them and the lables would not stay on ( a valid reason ). Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 16:55:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:55:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050314145145.V57617@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > All of the original AT controllers required two speed drives. Later > controllers added the 300K transfers. My REAL IBM controller (and as is documented in the AT Technical Reference Manual) did NOT require two speed drives. How much earlier than PRE-RELEASE are you talking about? Where are you located? Around here (west coast, California), FIRST there were single speed drives and THREE data transfer rate controllers. THEN, LATER, there were two speed drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Mar 14 16:57:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:57:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > The real gotya on the old machines... UPPER CASE ASCII ONLY. Actually, the switch to the eight bit byte (I am of the camp that a byte is 8 bits by default, then adjust to suit) was dictated not by characters, but by numbers - the vast majority of data in the 1960s was BCD. Six bit is not very efficient for handling BCD. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 17:04:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <10503142113.ZM9383@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <0503111825.AA04026@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <000701c5266a$5008a5a0$cf7ba8c0@MODEM> <10503112138.ZM2107@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503140912.ZM8027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> <000201c528d5$7f0c8840$9a3cd7d1@randylaptop> <10503142113.ZM9383@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050314150131.Q57617@shell.lmi.net> > > 2.88 mb controllers use it one way, some 1.44mb drives use it > another, some > > 5.25" drives use it for one thing other another. On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > 1.44MB drives, ie 3.5" drives, do not need to be told what density to > use; they use the media sense to detect that from the holes in the > diskette. Therefore if they use pin 2 at all, they usually use it to > signal to the controller whether the media loaded is HD or DD. On the early PS/2s, IBM used both 720K drives, and ones that they called "1.44M", that held 1.40625M (2*80*18*512) Unlike everybody else in the world, IBM did NOT have a media sensor! ... and therefore used pin 2. Using a 720 K diskette in one of IBM's 1.4M drives resulted in a not very reliable 1.4M. From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Mar 14 17:06:26 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:06:26 -0600 Subject: Byte sizes In-Reply-To: <20050314134715.R682@localhost> References: <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050314170329.0b74dee0@localhost> Off topic: What's really interesting is that the conversation below earned a rating of two chilli peppers from my mail program for possible offensive language! I looked hard for cuss words, naughty bits, rude implications, etc. and didn't see any. The message it is in reply to didn't earn any chillies. Hmmm.... At 01:56 PM 3/14/2005 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >>Any size from 0 to 36 bits. > > >Yeah, why is everyone so hung up on defining "byte"? It's not like >it's part of some natural order. It's whatever the designers made >up off the top of their head for some particular task. > >It's utterly arbitrary. There's varied interaction with the >'character' unit over time, but the two are not the same. >Sometimes they coincide; often they do not. > >And with UNICODE, who cares any more? Byte don't mean shit no >more, it's just an historic leftover. > >* When you ask how many bits in a byte, you have to ask "for what > machine?". > >6-bit characters encompass the old ITA2 (aka "baudot") teleprinter >codes, which were five bits (*) plus a state maintained in >parallel in both sender and receiver (aka FIGS and LTRS). Five >bits fits the roman alphabet 26 letters plus a few punctuation >characters. > > > >(*) Rarely did anyone people before approx. WWII consider the five >time intervals that make up the data portion of a >telegraph/teletype character to be "bits". That's a modern >interpretation. [Computing] A successful tool is one that was used to do something undreamed of by its author. --S. C. Johnson --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From elf at ucsd.edu Mon Mar 14 17:12:14 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:12:14 -0800 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Richard Bristol wrote: > (5) I don't burn more than 85% of the capacity > of a DVD. DVDs are a sandwich, lexan (polycarbonate) > on both sides, data layer chemistry in the middle. > The spiral starts on the inside (opposite LP records). > If you leave 3/4" unused at the outside edge, it will > take longer before the Ozone and 02 and other environmental > exposures that attack the data chemistry at the edges > of the lexan sandwitch actually reach your data. So on > a "4.7GB" disk which in real life could hold 4.3GB, I > burn 3.8GB. Interesting approach. Curious though ... why do the edges get attacked first? Are the disks slapped together in some sort of fashion such that there exists a potential breach at the edges? From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Mar 14 17:19:39 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:19:39 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16950.7179.201548.258195@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bj????rn" == Bj????rn writes: Bj????rn> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:26:23 +0100, Johnny Billquist Bj????rn> wrote: >> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 Bj?rn wrote: >> >>> A byte is the smallest INDIVIDUALLY addressable unit of data on a >>> system. >> Nonsense! Where did you get that? Bj????rn> From Donald Knuth. That's nice. But while Knuth is an authority on many things, he's not necessarily an authority on that. By that definition a PDP-8 byte would be 12 bits, which is clearly not how the term is used there. (Then again, on a CDC 6000 the term "byte" does mean 12 bits, it's the PPU's addressable unit. Hm.) >> Bah. A sixbit character can very well be a byte, it's just a >> question of if you choose to call it that. Byte addressable is >> not usable as a definition of a byte. Bj????rn> It does not matter if you do not find it usable, as long as Bj????rn> it IS the traditional definition. The PDP 10 came long after Bj????rn> it had been established. Huh? Knuth's "Fundamental Algorithms" came out well after the PDP-10 (never mind the earlier PDP-6, which is the same architecture). Bj????rn> The most interesting byte is the one Knuth used in his Bj????rn> abstract MIX machine, which he came up with when he was here Bj????rn> in Oslo. To drive home the point that bytes were not Bj????rn> dependent upon any particular hardware implementation, he Bj????rn> defined it as able to hold unspecified information, but at Bj????rn> least 100 different values. I would have thought most people Bj????rn> here had read his "Fundamental Algorithms"? Yes. That's a really cute definition, but it certainly has not been applied anywhere. paul From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 14 17:31:37 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:31:37 GMT Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1110833470.10973.51.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > I forsee four goals to make it useful: > > o Cheap CPLDs tend to cost between ?10 and ?20 each in 1-off, but you can stuff nearly all of the logic into just one of them. You could even make the board in-circuit reprogrammable if you wanted, but I'd be tempted to use an SRAM FPGA instead of a CPLD if I did that, simply because most FPGAs have open programming specs (it's something of a requirement - if you have to reload the fusemap every time you powercycle the chip, you're not going to want to drag the manufacturer's programmer around with you). > o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. Can you solder a 0.1" pitch PLCC socket? :) > o Easy / quick connectivity Parallel port then. I'd add "Portable across multiple platforms" which basically means "parport or nothing". Every desktop and laptop machine I've seen has had an IEEE-1284-compliant (or compliant to a reasonable degree) parallel port. > at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with > something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level > software would all be open source anyway!) "Here's the CPLD sources, the schematic, and the interface spec. Go forth and Have Fun." > Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have > parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me > to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). Me neither - software interfacing for USB is a total pig, not to mention the fact that you'll need some form of USB controller in the hardware. > Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): > > o Reading disks Easy - start when you get an index pulse, then stop when you get another pulse. I'd be tempted to make the stop pulse lag a bit though, just to make sure there's enough overlap to be reasonably sure that you've got all of the data. > o Writing back a disk image See above. > o Decoding disk data on host machine Synchronisation would be the hardest part of that. If you know where the bit boundaries are, you can just scan through the data and replace the flux-reversal sequences with binary bits. If you wanted to read an Amiga floppy, you'd have to use some form of circular buffer, find the sync marker, then move the data around in the buffer before decoding it. > o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy Building an MFM image may actually be easier than decoding one :) > Happily, that's probably order of complexity too, easiest first :) (I am > coming at this from a preservation point of view, rather than being able > to create disk images for use with emulators, say) You could decode the images into whatever format you wanted. It's just a question of software. I've got some digital design knowledge and I've got four weeks spare starting Friday - I might be able to look into designing something that would read disks. There should be a spare 3.5" drive around here *somewhere*... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Don't dispute death unless you've lived through it. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 17:44:35 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <35098.64.139.41.130.1110843875.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Bj?rn wrote: > It does not matter if you do not find it usable, as long as it IS the > traditional definition. > The PDP 10 came long after it had been established. The PDP-10 uses the PDP-6 architecture, which offered variable-sized bytes when it was designed in 1963. I do not think that any fixed byte size was firmly established at that time; in fact, available evidence suggest that a variable byte size was prevalent at the time. Even by the time of the first PDP-10 introduction in 1968, the size of the byte had not been standardized industry-wide, although it was moving in that direction. Thus the PDP-10, far from contradicting a traditional definition of byte, was in fact perpetuating the traditional definition. The first computer to use bytes with that name was the IBM 7030 Data Processing System (Stretch), which was designed from about 1957 to 1961 and introduced in 1961. Stretch used instructions that could address variable-sized fields that were subdivided into bytes of from 1 to 8 bits, though they sometimes referred to an entire field longer than 8 bits as a byte. IBM didn't standardize on an 8-bit byte until the introduction of the System/360 in 1964, and I'm not aware of any other vendors having standardized on 8 bit bytes before then. In fact, the PDP-6 is the only non-IBM machine from 1964 or earlier for which I've seen the manufacturer reference bytes at all. Eric References: PDP-6 Handbook, Digital Equipment Corporation, 1964 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp6/F-65_PDP-6_Handbook_Aug64.pdf Planning a Computer System, ed. Werner Buchholz, McGraw-Hill, 1962 http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-7030-Planning-McJones.pdf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 17:13:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:13:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <001201c52850$b0cc7050$db3dd7d1@randylaptop> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Mar 13, 5 10:45:41 pm Message-ID: > I have tried to research the issue further but can I find no authoritative > references to pin 2 being anything but an RPM select line. > > Other websites like mine do claim it is use for write current but provide no > references to show it. The IBM PC/AT Options and Adapters Techref supplement (what a title!) contains a section on the 'High Capacity Diskette Drive'. It defines pin2 as '-Reduced write' (the leading '-' meaning active low) and devines it as 'The inactive state of this signal indicates that high-density media is present requiring normal write currents, and the active state indicates low-density media is present, requiring a reduced write current.' The schematics only show the logic board, not the spindle motor, but I can fiond no speed-control connection to the spindle motor on the diagram. I can find a circuit connected to pin 2 of the interface connector that will control the write current. I have no evidence that this was ever used in a production drive, of course, but there is a document that supports that pin 2 is used to control the write current. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 17:25:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:25:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050314122716.038964b0@pop-server> from "Gene Ehrich" at Mar 14, 5 12:28:52 pm Message-ID: > >Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for > >yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind > >of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost > >2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. > > I would love to be able to connect a 5-1/4" external floppie drive via USP > to XP PRO or WIN98SE. Not what you're asking for at all, but it got me thinking... Somewhere I have a data sheet (itself probably 10 years old) for a chip that connected to a PC printer port and gave you an ISA slot on the other side. No, I don;t mean a chip that connects to an ISA slot and gives you a parallel port, I mean the reverse. You could, IIRC, hang 64K DRAM off it and do DMA transfers from the ISA slot to that DRAM, and then read/write that over the printer port (64K being the largest possible transfer using the normal PC DMA controller) -- I can't rememebr if the chip supported 16 bit word transfers, though (the PC/AT DAM system having some 16 bit channels that could transfer 64K words in a single operation). You could also, of course read/write any memory addrees or port. Somebody needs to come up with a simialr device for Useless Serial Botch. It would let you use a normal PC ISA floppy controller, for example. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 17:52:07 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050314223858.9CA2273029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050314223858.9CA2273029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20050314153434.P57617@shell.lmi.net> > > On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 13:59 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > (55-59) ++; > It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > You're -3 ? I sure hope not. I'm trying to not die for almost 10 more years. On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It's invalid C: > a.c:9: invalid lvalue in increment pseudocode, not C. C would require an lvalue that is validly parsed. increment the 55-59 element Born 3/14/1950 part-time FORTRAN programming and EAM in mid 1960s Schedule C's for last 40 years full-time FORTRAN and APL in 1970-1972 (GSFC) BA 1972, MLIS 1990, PhD-ABD 1995 Got out of aerospace during collapse, with pledge to come back when "individual computers" became practical (microprocessors, etc) Most S100 were still too expensive TRS-80 in 1978 hardware and software businesses IBM 5150 in 1981 Started teaching in 1981 full-time teaching since 1983, inherited desk and office from a teacher that I had had in 1967 Serious health problems last 10 years. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 16:58:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:58:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050313201136.00924c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 13, 5 08:11:36 pm Message-ID: > Ah! OK now I'm following you. Yes the 9845 PSU is a BEAST! I've worked on It's one of the most complex PSUs I've ever worked on. I am not sure if it's worse than the PSU in the 11/44, but ti sure comes close > a couple of them. I got lucky with my first one. The wires on the large > heavy inductor had sheared off at the PCB board so it wasn't hard to fix. Do you mean the black plastic block that's bolted to the metalwork that also holds the transformer for startup? That's part of the mains input filter, of course. Or one of the 2 main chopper transformers? Or one of the inductors on the output PCBs? I assume the first of those, and I really do wonder how on earth those leads would come off in shipping. > I'm still not sure how they (UPS) managed to mishandle it and cause the > wires to shear but not do any other damage. > > > > >There are no LEDs on the Integral PSU. The Integral PSU is a very > >conventional SMPUS, actually. The only odd feature is that triac to blow > >the fuse if you connect it to 230V mains when set to 115V. > > I saw that but wasn't sure what it was for. That's carrying protection > to extreme. I guess the thinking was that the Integral was a portable machine, and it would be likely to get plugged into the wrong mains for the selector switch setting. Plugging it into 115V mains when set to 230V does no damage, the reverse could do damage to the PSU, so they put the protection circuit in. It's overkill, perhaps, but this is an HP machine from the time when HP did things properly (unlike now :-(). Does your Integral service manual make any mention of the 6 pin header on the CPU board (Logic A PCB). From the labels, it would seem to be for connecting a signature analyser, the 'data' pin is actually the A23 address line. I susepct thrre was a service ROM cartridge that fits in place of the HPUX ROM too. > > > BTW Tony, if you don't object I'm going to save all these messages and > see about putting together a FAQ page for the IPC. I've been thinking of > putting up an IPC webpage for some time but haven't gotten around to it. No problem. My view is that if I post something to classiccmp, it's been made public (after all classiccmp is archived publically, I think). I therefore have no problem with my postings being made public in other ways. However, I do expect an acknowledgement somewhere on the web page or file... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 17:30:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:30:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy drive pin 2 question? In-Reply-To: <001401c528cc$28bb7360$6492d6d1@randylaptop> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Mar 14, 5 01:29:30 pm Message-ID: > The one and only standard the document gives for pin 2 is speed change. > > All of the original AT controllers required two speed drives. Later > controllers added the 300K transfers. According to the IBM Techref, the IBM PC/AT controller (which was actually a Western Digital card, of course) only ever used the 360rpm speed of the high-capacity (1.2M) drive. Pin 2 was a write-current select. I have never seen a PC/AT system which slowed the 1.2M drive down to read 360K disks. And as Pete said, there is certainly a need to reduce the write current to write to the 360K media. There's no way the drive can sense the type of media (there's no extra hole/notch as in 3.5" disks), that information has to come from the controller. And pin 2 was used to select the write current. -tony From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Mar 14 18:00:39 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:00:39 +0100 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anybody give me any information about this drive ? Would I for example be able to connect it to any more or less modern machine ? Thanks! Stefan Mansier. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 14 18:27:12 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:27:12 GMT Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <888dc24b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8 at popmail.ucsd.edu> "Eric F." wrote: > Curious though ... why do the edges get attacked first? Are the disks > slapped together in some sort of fashion such that there exists a potential > breach at the edges? Think about it - there's a 1" plastic hub in the center, followed by a ridge, then the data layer. On the outside of the disc there is no plastic hub/ridge to protect it - maybe 1/16" of "unused" dye, then the data itself. Also, a lot of the Taiwanese media manufacturers (read: CMC and crew) skimp on the amount of adhesive and enamel coat they use to seal the discs. That basically means you end up with a disc that will at best fail early, or at worst delaminate completely. I had a CMC-made "unbranded" blank that delaminated in a 24x CD-ROM drive, taking the drive on a one-way trip to silicon heaven. Truly awful discs. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Hey! Your Trakball is upside down! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 18:32:33 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:32:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503150032.QAA24291@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "9000 VAX" > >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:51:10 +0000, Jules Richardson >> >> What about cost? (irrespective of how the device physically connects to >> the host machine) >> >> I forsee four goals to make it useful: >> >> o Cheap >> o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. >> o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) >> o Easy / quick connectivity >> >> Catweasel seems to lose out on 1, 3, and 4 - and 2 isn't relevant in its >> case. Can't comment on how nice its software API is as I haven't looked >> at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with >> something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level >> software would all be open source anyway!) >> >> Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have >> parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me >> to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). >> >> Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): >> >> o Reading disks >> o Writing back a disk image >> o Decoding disk data on host machine >> o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy >> >> Happily, that's probably order of complexity too, easiest first :) (I am >> coming at this from a preservation point of view, rather than being able >> to create disk images for use with emulators, say) > >Luckly I have experience with both ADSP2181 and a CPLD/FPGA. I built >my own little board to read out the internal memory from an ADSP2181, >designed signal generation board with ADSP2181, and wrote thousands of >lines of ADSP2181 code. On the other hand, I built a QBUS MSCP SCSI >with Xilinx CPLD and now working on an Altera CPLD. > >I didn't read much of floppy controller but in my preliminary opinion, >CPLD/FPGA is a better fit. If you use a 2181 here, you utilize only >the (synchronous) serial port which can be easily built with a CPLD. A >CPLD on parallel port has another advantage, that you might be able to >eliminate a microcontroller which I guess is needed for a USB >sollution. I don't have knowledge of USB so please correct me if I am >wrong. > >vax, 9000 > Hi Vax What you say is true. I would suspect that it would be possible to do all of the work in a CPLD, even for the USB chip that I saw. Still, the ADI device has enough horse power to do a lot of data reduction. It also has the possibility to handle the writing back to a disk, including pre-comp. Again, all this has the possibility to be done in the CPLD as well but I think that incremental development in a software environment is easier than from a Verilog/VHDL level. I expected to use the processors ability to analyze the data to help to do data reduction from an over sampled input. This could be done on a PC with just the raw data as you state( again, even with the CPLD ). USB might not be fast enough to handle the over sampled data. By local data reduction, one can minimize the buffering requirements. In order to make a open source that all can use, you'd need to provide a compiler. ADI gives one an assembler that can be use for free. Still, if you went ahead and did this on your own, that would be great! I'm not sure if I could find the time to fiddle with it for at least a few months. All efforts here will be greatly appreciated. Having the code in Verilog/VHDL would also help to avoid obsolescent. Chips like the ADI2181 only have a few years before being obsoleted. Both should have the advantage that one can add enhancements as other types of disk media are added. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 14 18:33:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:33:08 +0000 Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <001e01c528e8$6d145560$2101a8c0@finans> References: <001e01c528e8$6d145560$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1110846788.10991.64.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 23:51 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: > The fact is, that the development of drives is so quick, that even if you > _could_ save a tape or disk or CD or whatever for 30 years, you wouldnt find > the proper drive, and even if you did, it wouldnt be supported anymore. > Let's go back 30 years; what were the dominant media at that time ? 1600 bpi > reel-to-reel tapes, 7.25 or 30 MB harddisk (IBM 2311/2314), and 8" floppy > discs. Some of my customers _still_ accept 8" disks and reels for financial > transactions. Philosophical question. As performance of a device goes up, does the need for more performance (by the average user) go down? In other words do we hit a point where the storage technology of the day is so good for what the typical/power user needs that there is no incentive for manufacturers to built anything better? Curious as to what people think. I'm sure they'll always be innovation in the lab and on specialist high-budget projects, but maybe one day they'll just be nowhere left to go for Joe Public. cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 18:46:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <41832.64.139.41.130.1110847573.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Eric asks about writable DVD media: > why do the edges get attacked first? Are the disks > slapped together in some sort of fashion such that there exists a > potential breach at the edges? Yes. They are laminated with adhesive, just as laser videodiscs were. The adhesive leaks O2 even when it's working well, and as it degrades it leaks worse. Laser videodiscs have higher mass, so the problems occur faster, but there's no reason to expect that the same problems won't happen to DVD media. With laser videodiscs, the problems do start closer to the outer edge, but they very rapidly (in a few weeks to a month) progress to affecting the entire disc. I expect that DVDs will behave similarly, though not quite as quickly. So not using the edge will gain you a little, but not a lot. Not enough that you should reduce your concern by any significant amount. Eric From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 14 18:42:13 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:42:13 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <20050314223858.9CA2273029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <1110838629.10973.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050314223858.9CA2273029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050314184134.04e09008@mail> At 04:38 PM 3/14/2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: >> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 13:59 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > (55-59) ++; >> >> You're -3 ? > > It's invalid C: > > a.c:9: invalid lvalue in increment Obviously you didn't cast correctly in order to avoid the error message. :-) - John From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 18:50:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Philip wrote: > CPLDs tend to cost between ?10 and ?20 each in 1-off, but you can stuff There must be one heck of a markup in the UK, then. Here in the US, you can buy a single 36-macrocell Xilinx XC9536XL for US$1.62, and a single 72-macrocell XC9572XL for US$3.09. Maybe you should order from Digikey and pay the international shipping rather than buying locally. These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you can download from the Xilinx web site, and a simple parallel port cable you can build yourself easily. Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 18:55:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:55:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503150055.QAA24298@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" ---snip--- >> >> o Reading disks > >Easy - start when you get an index pulse, then stop when you get another >pulse. I'd be tempted to make the stop pulse lag a bit though, just to make >sure there's enough overlap to be reasonably sure that you've got all of the >data. You need a little flexability here. I have a machine that is hard sectored and used 8 holes per sector. > >> o Writing back a disk image > >See above. It does need retiming and pre-comp added back in. Still, just a software issue. I like the DSP because it can actually analyze the particular media used and generate a more exacting pre-comp than even the best controller can. This would be great for archiving since the recreated disk can be better than the original. ---snip--- Go for it Phil!!!!! Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 14 19:31:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Stefan wrote: > Can anybody give me any information about this drive ? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/qume/ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Mar 14 19:42:57 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:42:57 -0500 Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions In-Reply-To: <200503141659.LAA5032406@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200503100428.XAA4695310@shell.TheWorld.com> <200503141659.LAA5032406@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <42363DA1.4080102@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: >>Megan, if you are reading this, might it be possible to expand the number >>of units to 128 or even 256? I seem to see at least one bit that is not >>being used and maybe even two bits. >> >> >Depends... where are you talking about getting the two bits? > > Jerome Fine replies: I would use the same general area as the other 6 bits. Looking around, one promising area is where the job number is kept. The high order bit seems the be unused - except that some code may depend on it being zero at all times. It would likely be easier to remove that dependency if the high bit for the job number field is always zero. In addition, since the job number is actually the ( job number * 2), i.e. the low order bit is always zero, then it might also be reasonable to add the extra code to bit clear both the high order and low order bits at the same time when the (job number * 2) is to be extracted. I am not saying there is a simple trivial answer (just as finding the second set of 3 bits was a bit tricky as well), just that it seems possible. I have not looked at other areas, but other areas in the queue entry might be possible as well. You do agree that it is the queue element that is the difficulty? Megan, do you have any other suggestions? Assuming that I am correct and that the job number field always has the high order and low order bits as zero, is it at least possible to work the way I have suggested? >>I know that naming would be a problem - what about: >> >>D00 -> D77: >>for the 128 unit device drivers, then add 8 more >>"hex" values to the last RAD50 character >>D08: -> D0F: >>... >>D78: -> D7F: >>for the 256 unit device drivers, then add 16 more >>values to the last RAD50 character >>D0G: -> D0V: >>... >>D7G: -> D7V: >> >uggh... I'd not want to see go this route. > > I did not say I liked the above suggestion, but do you have any other possibilities? A pure "octal" yields only 64 names which is the present solution. A pure "hex" WOULD yield 256 names, BUT the use of D00: -> DFF: would almost certainly conflict with a few other 2 character device names for the portion starting with DA0: -> DFF: Keeping the middle RAD50 characters at 0 -> 7 should mean that no conflict are possible with other 2 character device names which are NOT allowed an octal character for the second character, i.e. they must be one of the 26 alpha characters. YES!! My suggestion is not pretty! Do you have one that will work instead? Otherwise, perhaps at least 128 active RT-11 partitions would require only the third device name to be a "hex" character and that naming might be a bit more acceptable, i.e. D00: -> D7F: >>Since all the device names are RAD50, numbering is not really a problem. >>By keeping the middle character as an octal value, the PNAME2 table >>should still be happy. >> >You've got me on that, I would have to look at the code to see why >PNAME2 is an issue. > > I tend to observe that the P2NAME table assume that the second character is an octal character with the second character being allowed, if it is zero, to default to the second in the 2 character name in the PNAME table. If you can see any other possibility, then the "uggh" names that are suggested above would not be needed. >As for the number of disks... I find 64 unwieldy... I'd hate to have >to worry about 2 or 4 times that number on RT. I personally would >rather see RT be able to natively handle 32-bit blocks numbers before >it went this route... > I agree that 256 active RT-11 partitions which can cover 8 GBites is more than unwieldy. Since 64 active RT-11 partitions covers 2 GBytes, that should really be more than enough. HOWEVER, if you are really considering 32-bit block numbers, that is a 512 GByte hard drive with 65536 RT-11 partitions. Should be a snap! The map entry for each RT-11 partition is already 32 bits or 2 words and uses (WASTES?) 16 bits for the unit number, but allows only 8 bits (a byte) each for the port number and RT-11 partition number. It should no be much of a problem to swap the word for the unit number with the byte for the partition number. Since RT-11 already allows a 32-bit block number with ONLY 8 bits being used from the 8 bit RT-11 partition number, ... Do you get the point or do I need to spell out the extra details? If you are answering, I would be extremely useful to know if the first set of map entries in low memory are essential as opposed to the second set of map entries in high memory for the DUX.SYS device driver? I am always disappointed that the 64 unit DUX.SYS driver requires so much extra low memory for the extra entries in the map entry table. I never could quite understand why two tables are present, let alone if the one in lower memory might be located somewhere else and initialized into high memory during a LOAD or .Fetch from a separate area in the device driver outside of the portion which is copied to low memory? Perhaps both enhancements could be done at the same time, i.e. a 32-bit block number (16 bit partition number) and the elimination of the map entry table from low memory? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 19:47:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:47:23 -0500 Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <20050314144632.O57617@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503141742.JAA24133@clulw009.amd.com> <20050314144632.O57617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:47:26 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: > > >New maxim: when all else fails, re-seat. > > ... as has almost always been the maxim for Apple ]['s COMBOARDs, too... we used to tell all of our customers who had problems booting our boards (prior to initiating a connection to the other end, our software rebooted our own board and loaded the protocol engine image)... in the case of Qbus and Unibus boards, since the fingers are gold, it has to be due to oxide build up on the backplane pins. Probably 75% of the people who called in with hardware problems were able to get back on the air by reseating our card. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 19:48:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: longevity of media Message-ID: <200503150148.RAA24305@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I thought I should note here that all of the floppies that I originally created years ago have been readable. The only issues I've had with these is that the glue used on some envelopes inner linings seeps through the lining onto the disk or the envelope has been pinch in a stack so long that the disk doesn't turn. I've heard that the surfaces will begin to break down but so far, none of my disk have shown that to be true. My floppies go back to when ever the H89 first came out ( within a year after anyway ). I'd hoped that CDROMs could at least hold up that long. It looks like I'll be disappointed soon. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 19:52:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:52:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge Message-ID: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 23:51 +0100, Nico de Jong wrote: >> The fact is, that the development of drives is so quick, that even if you >> _could_ save a tape or disk or CD or whatever for 30 years, you wouldnt find >> the proper drive, and even if you did, it wouldnt be supported anymore. >> Let's go back 30 years; what were the dominant media at that time ? 1600 bpi >> reel-to-reel tapes, 7.25 or 30 MB harddisk (IBM 2311/2314), and 8" floppy >> discs. Some of my customers _still_ accept 8" disks and reels for financial >> transactions. > >Philosophical question. As performance of a device goes up, does the >need for more performance (by the average user) go down? > >In other words do we hit a point where the storage technology of the day >is so good for what the typical/power user needs that there is no >incentive for manufacturers to built anything better? > >Curious as to what people think. I'm sure they'll always be innovation >in the lab and on specialist high-budget projects, but maybe one day >they'll just be nowhere left to go for Joe Public. HI Hardly. The requirement for more space will continue. Serial data, such as CDROM's have some limits coming up but not the hunger for more data space. Access time is becoming a limiting factor that technology will sortly overcome( or we are doomed ). Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 14 19:57:00 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:57:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) Message-ID: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > > >Yes. They are laminated with adhesive, just as laser videodiscs were. >The adhesive leaks O2 even when it's working well, and as it degrades >it leaks worse. > Hi It sounds like the only way to deal with this is to store disk in an innert environment. N2 or argon are reasonable options. Only expose the disk to UV and O2 when actually used to recover data. They should last for 1000's of years this way. Dwight From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Mar 14 19:58:13 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:58:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <002201c528e2$88e07ae0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <002201c528e2$88e07ae0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > > Are you sure you're not thinking of Archive? I find more Archive 2150S > > drives than anything else in old machines. > > > FWIW, I've never seen Archives on IBM (I suppose you are thinking of AS/400, > S/36 and the likes), but loads of Tandbergs. Exactly. Almost all the older RS/6000 server-class systems had an IBM branded Tandberg QIC drive. I'm not familiar with the AS/400, but they might well have used them also. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 14 20:18:58 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:18:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050314181717.M68036@shell.lmi.net> > >Philosophical question. As performance of a device goes up, does the > >need for more performance (by the average user) go down? Performance tends to follow Moore's law. But "need" for performance follows Boyle's law, (particularly with MS software) and usually exceeds what is conveniently available. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Mar 14 20:18:46 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:18:46 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives Message-ID: <42364606.3070205@mdrconsult.com> I just received a pair of PerSci 8" floppy drives, with a PerSci 1070 S-100 controller (and a mountain of docs, including data sheets, sales literature, and schematics). Unfortunately, I won't have an S-100 system for a few more weeks. It's stuck in Arizona till I get out there to ship it. The question is, is this one of the drives that plays nicely with a PC FDC? I have a couple of older ISA IDE/FD controllers, and an Adaptec 1542 if I can dig it up. That would still entail getting one of the DBit cable adapters, but it would nicely solve the issue of an enclosure and PSU for this YE-Data YD-180. When I get a hance to make a detailed list of this documentation, I'll post it. I think that most of it's already out there, though. Doc From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Mar 14 20:39:01 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:39:01 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSX tape backup problem Message-ID: <42364AC5.2050402@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi everyone, Well, I am finally getting around to trying to recover some 26 9-track tapes I have been holding on to for at least 10 years. Some are closer to 25 years. I found out six of them had no data, and a bunch more I have been able to read and decode, including some RT-11 tapes and some VAX SIG tapes. Sorry this monologue won't make much sense to you non-DEC folks, but you might have ideas on converting from 800 to 1600 BPI anyway. Here is my dilemna. I have 6 tapes that look like they are 800 BPI, and were most likely written on an RSX-11 system. I have no 800 BPI setup, and if I did, it would be on a VAX, which may not be able to restore the savesets anyway. That is because I have a few more tapes that I can read (or at least dump) but I cannot unpack the savesets. It would appear that the tapes were written in the early days of VMS when the backup and restore utilities were really RSX-11 BCK/RST derivitives, and the current BACKUP program does not recognize the container file as a valid saveset. The label on the front of several tapes date them early 80's and talks about BCK format. The dump sort of looks like BCK stuff. The blocksize is 2064. I've had a couple of offers to try to recover the data, but I was checking to see if anybody was set up to easily read and recover the data, without a lot of reconfiguration or hassle. I'm open to suggestions. I suspect if I knew the layout of a BCK container/saveset I could unpack them myself (except for the 800 BPI stuff). Any ideas?? I also have an XXDP tape, labeled MSDP, which makes me think it is bootable. It would be nice to duplicate it, as it is not easily read to disk. The first block is 14 bytes, and the rest look like 512 bytes. And finally, I have a tape that is readable, is mountable under VMS and I can copy nearly everything off of. That is, the 400+ files up to the file that is marked HECK.BCK. That file is 2064 byte blocks, which makes me think it is also a BCK/RST format. Can't figure how I got it on the end of the tape and haven't figured out how to get it back. Cheers, Joe Heck From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 20:51:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:51:20 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <39437.64.139.41.130.1110829926.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050314215120.0388f1cd.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) "Eric Smith" wrote: > der Mouse replied to my description of PDP-10 byte addressing (0-36 > bits) and someone else's claim that a byte is the smallest addressable > unit of storage: > > That sounds a whole lot like a hardware-supported way of addressing > > an object of an arbitrary size in bits. And that would mean that > > bytes of any size *are* individually addressible. > > Any size from 0 to 36 bits. > > The problem with the "smallest addressable unit" definitition is that > it would mean that the byte size of a PDP-10 is *only* zero bits, > because that's the smallest. (Or one bit, if you can define it in a > way to rule out the zero bits case.) > > Also, the MC68000 has bit-manipulation instructions that can address > individual bits, but it is not considered to have one-bit bytes. > Lots of embedded controllers, including some of the 4-bit ones that I've programmed professionally (8 bit byte ??!!??) have bit manipulation instructions. This is one of those discussion threads where the stuff people bring up is more interesting than the actual issue of 'the size of the byte.' > Eric > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 20:50:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:50:29 -0700 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>The real gotya on the old machines... UPPER CASE ASCII ONLY. >> >> > >Actually, the switch to the eight bit byte (I am of the camp that a byte >is 8 bits by default, then adjust to suit) was dictated not by characters, >but by numbers - the vast majority of data in the 1960s was BCD. Six bit >is not very efficient for handling BCD. > > Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 bit sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity The IBM 360 and I think marketing ... bytes give you 4x bigger memory size, 1/4 the cost and 1/9 real $ savings over 36 bit words. Ben alias woodelf From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 14 20:56:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:56:58 -0500 Subject: HP Integral : running ! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050313201136.00924c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050314215658.00a59e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:58 PM 3/14/05 +0000, you wrote: >> Ah! OK now I'm following you. Yes the 9845 PSU is a BEAST! I've worked on > >It's one of the most complex PSUs I've ever worked on. I am not sure if >it's worse than the PSU in the 11/44, but ti sure comes close > >> a couple of them. I got lucky with my first one. The wires on the large >> heavy inductor had sheared off at the PCB board so it wasn't hard to fix. > >Do you mean the black plastic block that's bolted to the metalwork that >also holds the transformer for startup? That's part of the mains input >filter, of course. Or one of the 2 main chopper transformers? Or one of >the inductors on the output PCBs? I don't remeber which it was but it was an inductor and not a transformer. The thing was working before it was shipped and broken when it arrived here so UPS have done something rough. The wires didn't come out of the board, they were sheared off almost flush with the PCB and the stubs were still well soldered in. > >I assume the first of those, and I really do wonder how on earth those >leads would come off in shipping. > >> I'm still not sure how they (UPS) managed to mishandle it and cause the >> wires to shear but not do any other damage. >> >> > >> >There are no LEDs on the Integral PSU. The Integral PSU is a very >> >conventional SMPUS, actually. The only odd feature is that triac to blow >> >the fuse if you connect it to 230V mains when set to 115V. >> >> I saw that but wasn't sure what it was for. That's carrying protection >> to extreme. > > >I guess the thinking was that the Integral was a portable machine, and it >would be likely to get plugged into the wrong mains for the selector >switch setting. Plugging it into 115V mains when set to 230V does no >damage, the reverse could do damage to the PSU, so they put the >protection circuit in. It's overkill, perhaps, but this is an HP machine >from the time when HP did things properly (unlike now :-(). > >Does your Integral service manual make any mention of the 6 pin header on >the CPU board (Logic A PCB). From the labels, it would seem to be for >connecting a signature analyser, the 'data' pin is actually the A23 >address line. I'll have to look. I susepct thrre was a service ROM cartridge that fits in >place of the HPUX ROM too. There is. I have one. :-) > >> >> >> BTW Tony, if you don't object I'm going to save all these messages and >> see about putting together a FAQ page for the IPC. I've been thinking of >> putting up an IPC webpage for some time but haven't gotten around to it. > >No problem. My view is that if I post something to classiccmp, it's been >made public (after all classiccmp is archived publically, I think). I >therefore have no problem with my postings being made public in other >ways. However, I do expect an acknowledgement somewhere on the web page >or file... Not a problem. I'd already planned on that. I don't know if you want you e-mail address included or not or you want it included but made unreadable to the SPAMbots. Let me know what you prefer. Joe > >-tony > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 20:59:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:59:42 -0700 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <41832.64.139.41.130.1110847573.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <41832.64.139.41.130.1110847573.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42364F9E.6090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >Yes. They are laminated with adhesive, just as laser videodiscs were. >The adhesive leaks O2 even when it's working well, and as it degrades >it leaks worse. > >Laser videodiscs have higher mass, so the problems occur faster, but >there's no reason to expect that the same problems won't happen to >DVD media. With laser videodiscs, the problems do start closer to >the outer edge, but they very rapidly (in a few weeks to a month) >progress to affecting the entire disc. I expect that DVDs will >behave similarly, though not quite as quickly. So not using the >edge will gain you a little, but not a lot. Not enough that you >should reduce your concern by any significant amount. > > > But not writing near the edge will help with finger prints. Also the surface of some CD's can be easly scraped with a finger nail. I did that trying to get a CD out of a paper sleeve. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 21:07:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:07:31 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42365173.1060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >Philip wrote: > > >>CPLDs tend to cost between ?10 and ?20 each in 1-off, but you can stuff >> >> > >There must be one heck of a markup in the UK, then. Here in the US, >you can buy a single 36-macrocell Xilinx XC9536XL for US$1.62, and >a single 72-macrocell XC9572XL for US$3.09. Maybe you should order >from Digikey and pay the international shipping rather than buying >locally. > > > Digikey has a minum order. I know I just ordered a CPLD development kit from them. >These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you >can download from the Xilinx web site, and a simple parallel port >cable you can build yourself easily. > > If you have about $100 us you can get Atmel programimg CPLD kit. You need windows and 9 volt .5 amp wall wart to get started. A CPLD is about $10 us. Ben alias woodelf From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Mar 14 21:22:16 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:22:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 bit > sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity Very inefficient. I hope you are not serious. Back in the 1960s, most data was numeric, due to banking. It may still be the dominant form (with maybe porn mpgs a close second). Each field of a database might have 10, 12, perhaps 16 BCD characters. Why on Earth would you want a sign bit associated with each one? If the field even needed a sign, only one would be needed. Parity? That is the job of the memory controller - having the processor figure out parity is just a waste of CPU. You need to realize that back in the 1960, each bit was counted with a price tag. A medium sized mainframe might only have 64K with a few tens of megs on disk. A batch might take all night to run, with no time for fooling around with extra bits. Basically, sixbit died when it should have. The DEC 36 bit line suffered from really bad timing (the S/360 was being planned, unknown to DEC, when the PDP-6 was being wheeled out. The S/360 made the world 8 bits, and signed the PDP-6/10s death certificate.). > The IBM 360 and I think marketing ... bytes give you 4x bigger memory > size, 1/4 the cost and > 1/9 real $ savings over 36 bit words. I don't understand this - clarify? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Mar 14 21:47:28 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:47:28 -0600 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503142216.OAA24238@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503142216.OAA24238@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42365AD0.9090803@pacbell.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Jules Richardson" ... >>What about cost? (irrespective of how the device physically connects to >>the host machine) >> >>I forsee four goals to make it useful: >> >> o Cheap > > Hi > When one considers how much hardware one saves over a PIC solution, > the DSP is cheap. They are in the $10 range. Catweasel: $90-ish. That is its disadvantage, but it offers a lot of convenience that a $10 DSP (OK, plus $10 in random analog bits, plus $10 worth of sockets, and $xxx worth of time wirewrapping, etc). >> o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. > > A little tough here. 50 mil spaces surface mount. Some soldering > skills required. Catweasel wins this one hands down. Just plug it in. >> o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) > > No issue here. Except that it doesn't exist. A hypothetical thing has any advantage that you wish to confer on it. The catweasel design isn't open source, but I believe just about all the drivers are. >> o Easy / quick connectivity > > Although, most computers come with a parallel port, using > the port on a newer XP for other than normal purposes may be a pain. There are a number of drivers for linux/amiga/others that exist, and the driver for windows is coming along. Someone else has already suffered the pain for us. My own desire that motivated me to buy a catweasel was to collect and archive information. The fact that the collection was done on a "modern" machine (there are isa and pci versions of the card) doesn't bother me at all. >>Catweasel seems to lose out on 1, 3, and 4 - and 2 isn't relevant in its >>case. Can't comment on how nice its software API is as I haven't looked >>at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with >>something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level >>software would all be open source anyway!) #2 isn't relevant -- what do you mean? Sure, some people want to tinker with HW for the sake of tinkering with HW. I have no fear of electronics but with my limited time, I get more satisfaction in other activities. I'd rather spend a few $$ and save hours of effort collecting, building, troubleshooting so that I have time to do those other things. I suspect that I'm in the majority otherwise this project would have been done already. Even the lowest level software of the catweasel is open source. So there is no advantage in this respect for the putative design. >>Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have >>parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me >>to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). >> >>Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): >> >> o Reading disks > > Should be easy. > >> o Writing back a disk image > > I see only minor issues here ( pre-comp ) > >> o Decoding disk data on host machine > > Just requires some one to do it. These last three itmes were the main sticking point for a number of people. The catweasel should be able to handle just about any format; it is "just" a simple matter of software yet to be written. Yet it hasn't been done for many formats. >> o Modifying disk data on host machine, re-encoding back to floppy > > If one can do the above, this one comes along, almost > for free. The MK3 and earlier catweasels were deficient in their ability to write hard sectored disks efficiently, but MK4 should fix that. At the HW level read and writing are both simple; writing the flux pattern in software is easier than decoding it. Reading through a lot of the postings on this thread makes me think of somebody complaining that "linux is too big, bloated, and complicated, and redhat charges for their version too. let's write our own version that will be lean and mean and available to all for free." Thinking about the design is fun and the one who actually does it will have some rewards implementing it, but for most people, the already available solution will be superior to the proposed design even if it is ever done. Spending $60 more for a finished, professionally done board might be a showstopper for some people, but futzing with the building your own will preclude a great many more. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Mar 14 21:56:12 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 05 03:56:12 GMT Subject: Got Videotrax card working Message-ID: <0503150356.AA11201@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ethan Dicks wrote: > in the case of Qbus and Unibus boards, since the > fingers are gold, it has to be due to oxide build up on the backplane > pins. Aren't the backplane contacts also gold-plated? MS From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 22:34:34 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:34:34 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42365AD0.9090803@pacbell.net> References: <200503142216.OAA24238@clulw009.amd.com> <42365AD0.9090803@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:47:28 -0600, Jim Battle wrote: >Reading through a lot of the postings on this thread makes me think of >somebody complaining that "linux is too big, bloated, and complicated, >and redhat charges for their version too. let's write our own version >that will be lean and mean and available to all for free." Thinking >about the design is fun and the one who actually does it will have some >rewards implementing it, but for most people, the already available >solution will be superior to the proposed design even if it is ever >done. Spending $60 more for a finished, professionally done board might >be a showstopper for some people, but futzing with the building your own > will preclude a great many more. I didn't know what a catweasel was. Yes, I agree that it is the right solution. regards, vax, 9000 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 14 22:45:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:45:38 -0700 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42366872.30209@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 bit >>sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity >> >> > >Very inefficient. I hope you are not serious. > >Back in the 1960s, most data was numeric, due to banking. It may still be >the dominant form (with maybe porn mpgs a close second). > Lets call this multi-media to include music downloads. If I want porn rather get a DVD than a mpg. :) > Each field of a >database might have 10, 12, perhaps 16 BCD characters. Why on Earth would >you want a sign bit associated with each one? If the field even needed a >sign, only one would be needed. Parity? That is the job of the memory >controller - having the processor figure out parity is just a waste of >CPU. > > Well the 1620 was a variable length machine ... A sign/flag bit made more sence at the time since you only had as many BCD digits as you needed. >You need to realize that back in the 1960, each bit was counted with a >price tag. A medium sized mainframe might only have 64K with a few tens of >megs on disk. A batch might take all night to run, with no time for >fooling around with extra bits. > > > The extra bits were hidden but parity was the price you paid for core memory at the time for error checking. >Basically, sixbit died when it should have. The DEC 36 bit line suffered >from really bad timing (the S/360 was being planned, unknown to DEC, when >the PDP-6 was being wheeled out. The S/360 made the world 8 bits, and >signed the PDP-6/10s death certificate.). > > > I am not a IBM fan... I support 9 bit bytes. ( Bytes for a lack of better name ). The PDP-6/10's may of supported them but other than the CPU I am building I can't think of any other computer using them. (Well I got some of the hardware already ... 1'st build the case to hold the front panel) To clairfy about IBM and bytes from a marketing standpoint it was a way to misslead the potential computer buyers from my veiw point that with the new marketing terms -- byte vs words , 32 vs 36 bits so that IBM's products would look better compared to the 7 dwarfs at the time. Just like stating raw clock speed today for marketing. I can buy a N GHZ machine but can anybody tell me the real speed of instruction abc on data xyz? Ben alias woodelf From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 14 22:49:08 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:49:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <003d01c528de$3840f8c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca><200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <003d01c528de$3840f8c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200503150450.XAA25486@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [h]ere in California, the cultural and computing center of the > universe (you're suppose to laugh at this point), a "byte" was always > 8 bits, half-word was 16 bits (or a short-word) and a word was 32 > bits (or a long-word). This must be a different California from the one that developed 4.3BSD for the VAX, a machine on which a byte is 8 bits, a word 16, and 32 is a long (or more formally longword) - terminology inherited in large part (in toto?) from the PDP-11 and for some reason I do not understand not updated to match the VAX. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bmachacek at pcisys.net Mon Mar 14 22:50:58 2005 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:50:58 -0700 Subject: Age Message-ID: <001401c5291a$97eb5cc0$0200000a@xeon> Guess I might as well weigh in too. The first computer I worked with was a CDC 1604-A which uses the octal numbering scheme. I will be 102 in 5 days, the 19th of March. Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 23:08:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:08:11 -0500 Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <0503150356.AA11201@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503150356.AA11201@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 05 03:56:12 GMT, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > in the case of Qbus and Unibus boards, since the > > fingers are gold, it has to be due to oxide build up on the backplane > > pins. > > Aren't the backplane contacts also gold-plated? Not from what I can see from looking in them. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Mar 14 23:08:23 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:08:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <42366872.30209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Well the 1620 was a variable length machine ... A sign/flag bit made > more sence at the time since > you only had as many BCD digits as you needed. It is still very inefficient, with lots of wasted bits. It would not matter with a small machine like a 1620, but it does when the system gets larger. Even a small S/360 dwarfs a 1620. All those wasted bits add up. > The extra bits were hidden but parity was the price you paid for core > memory at the time > for error checking. Parity checking is the job of the memory controller, not the processor. In fact, I am having a hard time thinking of a processor that did its own parity checking in software (yes, I know any processor could do it, but did any really do it?). Even if the parity checking is a lowly 74180, like in a microcomputer - it is still not boggin down the processor. The processor really doesn't need to know about parity, unless things go bad. > I am not a IBM fan... I support 9 bit bytes. ( Bytes for a lack of > better name ). 9 is even more inefficient. > The PDP-6/10's may of supported them but other than the CPU I am building > I can't think of any other computer using them. Some Univacs. > To clairfy about IBM and bytes from a marketing standpoint it was a way to > misslead the potential computer buyers from my veiw point that with the new > marketing terms -- byte vs words , 32 vs 36 bits so that IBM's products > would > look better compared to the 7 dwarfs at the time. Going back a few days to a previous thread about books, I suggest you read pages 148 and 149 of *IBMs System 360 and Early 370 Computers*. You may then see that there was no conspiracy against sixbit. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Mar 14 23:48:11 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:48:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <200503150559.AAA06002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...Xilinx devices...] > These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you > can download from the Xilinx web site, I'm not sure it's really fair to call running someone else's binary-only software "zero-cost". That kind of risk is relatively expensive, in trouble and safeguards if all goes well, in putting the machine back together one way or another if not. If, as I fully expect to be the case[%], it's also software that runs only under closed-source licensed-for-$ operating systems, it's not anything like zero-cost, since it demands buying RTU the relevant OS. [%] What little I could find on the Xilinx webpages was not clear about downloading - it seems to want a login of some sort - but seemed to be all about XP, apparently meaning Windows XP. Perhaps I missed something because their pages are too lynx-hostile.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 00:01:42 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:01:42 +0800 Subject: IMSAI VDP-80 In-Reply-To: <002301c528cd$23bfdb70$a3881442@r2p0s6> References: <002301c528cd$23bfdb70$a3881442@r2p0s6> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:36:37 -0500, Mike wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > I've got a VDP-80 here that's in a little sorry shape... CRT problems, > cracked lid, few keys missing off kb etc... I can look for some docs and > pics if needed. Also got a VDP-44 here that works alot better. > It'd be great if you could post some pics of both the -44 and -80, so that at least people like me would recognize the parts if I ever stumbled into them.. /wai-sun From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 15 00:02:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 22:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Two on-topic posts at Slashdot today Message-ID: <20050315060241.16434.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> NPR interview with Donald Knuth at http://tinyurl.com/5zs35 and community efforts to save abandonware at http://tinyurl.com/5xk9p. - Evan Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 15 00:24:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:24:47 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > It sounds like the only way to deal with this is to store > disk in an innert environment. N2 or argon are reasonable > options. Only expose the disk to UV and O2 when actually > used to recover data. They should last for 1000's of years > this way. Am I the only one here who has never had a problem with CDR and DVD-R media? I burned my very first CD in 1995 and I can still read it. I keep all my CDs in closed CD folders in a dry environment. I keep wondering if people who have CDRs that exhibit "bitrot" have them in a humid environment, exposed to direct light or something. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 15 00:21:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:21:42 -0700 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42367EF6.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>Well the 1620 was a variable length machine ... A sign/flag bit made >>more sence at the time since >>you only had as many BCD digits as you needed. >> >> > >It is still very inefficient, with lots of wasted bits. It would not >matter with a small machine like a 1620, but it does when the system gets >larger. Even a small S/360 dwarfs a 1620. All those wasted bits add up. > > The 1620 is BCD serial ... slow but then lots less $$$ than a 360. Since I only got to know small computers like a PDP 8 and a IBM1130 I never had to deal with the bigger stuff. >Going back a few days to a previous thread about books, I suggest you read >pages 148 and 149 of *IBMs System 360 and Early 370 Computers*. You may >then see that there was no conspiracy against sixbit. > > > I never said a word about 6 bits ... I grumble about 11111111 base 0 bits. There is a lot of good reasions why we have 8 bits mostly because 4 bits work nice for MSI like alu's and shift registers. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 15 00:27:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:27:04 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503150559.AAA06002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503150559.AAA06002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42368038.9040502@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >I'm not sure it's really fair to call running someone else's >binary-only software "zero-cost". That kind of risk is relatively >expensive, in trouble and safeguards if all goes well, in putting the >machine back together one way or another if not. > > All free CAD software I have seen is windows based and getting more GUI all the time. With atmel software at least the software is small... most of the other stuff is much larger. While CUPL is crummy it does the job and fairly clear in just what is compiled. Ben alias woodelf From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 15 01:21:19 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:21:19 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <015901c5292f$958b8e40$ea781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > It sounds like the only way to deal with this is to store > > disk in an innert environment. N2 or argon are reasonable > > options. Only expose the disk to UV and O2 when actually > > used to recover data. They should last for 1000's of years > > this way. > > Am I the only one here who has never had a problem with CDR and DVD-R media? I > burned my very first CD in 1995 and I can still read it. I keep all my CDs in > closed CD folders in a dry environment. I keep wondering if people who have > CDRs that exhibit "bitrot" have them in a humid environment, exposed to direct > light or something. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ I think the only CDR's I had go bad were one I got careless in during use (leaving them out where the cats can scratch them). My first burner was a $1000+ HP 4020i way back in the middle 90's and CDs burned during that time still read fine ($6-7 a cd back then too). I used to get crazy with Stick-it-Right labels on the cd's (have the gold color under the paper). I keep most of the older CDs in CD audio books, but the one burned in 2000+ are usually just stacked in the spindles they came in (most with paper labels some without). From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Tue Mar 15 05:55:33 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:55:33 -0000 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <001e01c528e8$6d145560$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000301c52955$e53d83a0$4601a8c0@retrobbs.org> I'm going to start putting all my cd-r stuff on single layer DVD. By the time I'm done with that, I might be able to afford dual layer disks for my burner. Then blue laser will be out... Maybe I should just put it on two serial ata 120 gig hard drives. It might last longer between copies.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nico de Jong Sent: 14 March 2005 22:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge > Richard: > > I think Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from > > the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi, Taiyo Yuden, and Mitsumi. I've had long discussions with an archival specialist here in Denmark on the topic of what media to use for what purpose. The unanimous result was, that "archival copying" is a never ending job. One can always quarrel about the life of a media, but in practice this is a fight about the emperors beard : it is useles. The fact is, that the development of drives is so quick, that even if you _could_ save a tape or disk or CD or whatever for 30 years, you wouldnt find the proper drive, and even if you did, it wouldnt be supported anymore. Let's go back 30 years; what were the dominant media at that time ? 1600 bpi reel-to-reel tapes, 7.25 or 30 MB harddisk (IBM 2311/2314), and 8" floppy discs. Some of my customers _still_ accept 8" disks and reels for financial transactions. In my experience, the conclusion is that the more "modern" the media, the shorter the life span, e.g. 5.25" floppies : probably late 70's to mid 90'. Especially streamer tapes are a problem; some drives are only 1 generation backward compatible for writing, and maybe 3 or 4 for reading. As the capacity doubles more or less each year, the horror scenario is that you cannot read your own tapes after 3-4 years because of drive incompatibility. Nico From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Mar 15 07:11:14 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:11:14 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> References: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> Add one to the early 50s group. I held off posting because I dislike sending personal demographics to a public board, but I guess if anybody really cared how old I was, they could find out. Joe Heck > From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 15 08:37:05 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:37:05 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com><42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> <015901c5292f$958b8e40$ea781941@game> Message-ID: <005101c5296c$769f8620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> (Somebody mentioned that gold media was still available but expensive. Somebody else said that it was likely the best for longevity.) Rather than complain, how about mentioning how to obtain this "archivist grade" material? John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 08:49:18 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:49:18 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <16950.62958.877435.581317@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: Philip> In message <1110833470.10973.51.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Philip> Richardson wrote: >> I forsee four goals to make it useful: >> >> o Cheap Philip> CPLDs tend to cost between ??10 and ??20 each in 1-off, but you Philip> can stuff nearly all of the logic into just one of them. You Philip> could even make the board in-circuit reprogrammable if you Philip> wanted, but I'd be tempted to use an SRAM FPGA instead of a Philip> CPLD if I did that, simply because most FPGAs have open Philip> programming specs (it's something of a requirement - if you Philip> have to reload the fusemap every time you powercycle the Philip> chip, you're not going to want to drag the manufacturer's Philip> programmer around with you). Some of the better nonvolatile FPGAs also have open programming specs. In particular, there's the protocol called "Jam" (or was that "Jazz"?) used by Altera. It's not just open, it's also clean, well-designed, and easy to implement. >> o Easy / quick connectivity Philip> Parallel port then. I'd add "Portable across multiple Philip> platforms" which basically means "parport or nothing". Every Philip> desktop and laptop machine I've seen has had an Philip> IEEE-1284-compliant (or compliant to a reasonable degree) Philip> parallel port. I guess you haven't looked at Macs then. The problem with parallel ports is that they typically have up to four different modes, all of which have drawbacks. 1. Classic output-only mode. Not applicable here, of course. 2. PIO bidirectional mode. Works fine but it's VERY slow. Not just because of the PIO nature, but also because in this mode the port uses open collector signaling, so the rising edges are all defined by RC time constants. 3. ECP mode. This is a block transfer mode useful for printers, not obviously useable for anything else. 4. EPP mode. Nice, clean handshake protocol, with totem pole tristate signaling. Not quite so trivial either on the software or the hardware side, though. I did a CPLD implementation of #4, which seems to work. In the first PC where I used it I had to install an add-on card, though; the built-in port didn't support EPP. But the HDL for the state machine was fairly complicated, and getting rid of all the metastability issues (since there is no clock in any of these modes) wasn't trivial either. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 08:59:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:59:17 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSX tape backup problem References: <42364AC5.2050402@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <16950.63557.708067.83896@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "joe" == joe heck writes: joe> Here is my dilemna. I have 6 tapes that look like they are 800 joe> BPI, and were most likely written on an RSX-11 system. I have joe> no 800 BPI setup, and if I did, it would be on a VAX, which may joe> not be able to restore the savesets anyway. That is because I joe> have a few more tapes that I can read (or at least dump) but I joe> cannot unpack the savesets. ... Could you read them as straight streams of blocks, and produce a .TAP file from that, which you can then feed to RSX running in an emulator? Or write the data back out to another tape at a density that your RSX system supports? joe> I also have an XXDP tape, labeled MSDP, which makes me think it joe> is bootable. It would be nice to duplicate it, as it is not joe> easily read to disk. The first block is 14 bytes, and the rest joe> look like 512 bytes. That's a DOS format tape -- the 14 byte record is the file label. If it's bootable, then the next block is the boot program. You could read it and see if it looks like PDP11 code. A boot block would typically have either reset (5) or NOP (0240) in the first word. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 09:06:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:06:03 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy References: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 >> bit sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity William> Very inefficient. I hope you are not serious. William> Back in the 1960s, most data was numeric, due to banking. It William> may still be the dominant form (with maybe porn mpgs a close William> second). Each field of a database might have 10, 12, perhaps William> 16 BCD characters. Why on Earth would you want a sign bit William> associated with each one? If the field even needed a sign, William> only one would be needed. Parity? That is the job of the William> memory controller - having the processor figure out parity William> is just a waste of CPU. That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and the CPU. In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, connected by cables to the CPU cabinet. A wise designer would run parity on that interconnect. That's still true: high end "system on a chip" designs have ECC memory AND parity (at least) on the buses -- even if they only run inside the chip. I don't actually know if there was parity there. Probably yes, since there definitely was such a thing as a parity check stop error in the CPU. Oh, and of course processors don't ever figure memory parity in software, only in hardware, so "waste of CPU" can't apply. As for sign bit per digit, in the 1620 the "sign" bit serves two purposes -- on the least significant digit it's the sign of the number, on the most significant digit it's the "this is the last digit" marker. Not that the 1620 is all that efficient -- at 12 digits per instruction, code density was pretty low. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 09:22:44 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:22:44 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca> <200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca> <003d01c528de$3840f8c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> <200503150450.XAA25486@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16950.64964.430011.298598@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: der> This must be a different California from the one that developed der> 4.3BSD for the VAX, a machine on which a byte is 8 bits, a word der> 16, and 32 is a long (or more formally longword) - terminology der> inherited in large part (in toto?) from the PDP-11 and for some der> reason I do not understand not updated to match the VAX. "word" for 16 bits and "longword" for 32 bits IS the VAX terminology. The VAX kept the PDP-11 terminology for the simple reason that the VAX was supposed to be seen as an upward compatible extension of the PDP-11. That's clear from the PDP-11 instruction set emulation, of course. It's also clear from the data formats used -- not just the integer data but also F and D float come straight from the PDP-11, even though on a VAX those layouts look very contorted. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 09:27:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:27:26 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: Jim> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> It sounds like the only way to deal with this is to store disk in >> an innert environment. N2 or argon are reasonable options. Only >> expose the disk to UV and O2 when actually used to recover >> data. They should last for 1000's of years this way. Jim> Am I the only one here who has never had a problem with CDR and Jim> DVD-R media? I don't have enough experience with them yet. My suspicion is that choice of media is a big contributor. For example, I will no longer use Fuji media of any kind for any purpose under any circumstance, after ALL (100 percent) of my Fuji audio cassettes died within just a few years, while NONE of any other brand did. So if through luck or good judgement you pick competent media manufacturers, that should help a lot. paul From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 09:39:28 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:39:28 -0600 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <422A21ED.6060507@gjcp.net> <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: well, I guess I will go for oldest, 68 On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:11:14 -0500, joe heck wrote: > Add one to the early 50s group. I held off posting because I dislike > sending personal demographics to a public > board, but I guess if anybody really cared how old I was, they could > find out. > > Joe Heck > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From rimmer at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 14 17:41:22 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:41:22 +0100 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315004017.028d0e20@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anybody give me any information about this drive ? Would I for example be able to connect it to any more or less modern machine ? Thanks! Stefan Mansier. From hatfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 15 06:30:57 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (Fred Hatfield) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:30:57 -0600 Subject: Your age statistics Message-ID: <003101c5295a$d68f2cf0$0202a8c0@ORG> At the risk of tilting your age spectrum report, I must admit to possibly being the eldest computer nut on the list. I noticed a complete lack of cohorts in this age group, they must be either all deceased or devastated by Alzheimer's.... Fred Hatfield, age 76. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Mar 15 07:55:55 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:55:55 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: <0503150356.AA11201@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503150356.AA11201@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <37882.195.212.29.67.1110894955.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> in the case of Qbus and Unibus boards, since the >> fingers are gold, it has to be due to oxide build up on the backplane >> pins. > > Aren't the backplane contacts also gold-plated? > Mine aren't. I have seriously reduced the number of random freezes (hard disk light stays on, little red light on the controller comes on) by removing all the cards, cleaning the edge connectors with contact cleaner, buffing the surface with a pencil rubber, and reseating. Dissolves sticky brown smoke goo. Seems that the previous owner of my PDP was a fairly heavy smoker. Gordon. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 15 09:51:28 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:51:28 +0100 Subject: My Data General Nova 4/x page, update In-Reply-To: <20050312135611.U682@localhost> References: <20050312135611.U682@localhost> Message-ID: <42370480.1060108@hachti.de> Hello Tom, take a look at http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery and be happy about your tape drive's state..... I have just visited your nova page. Seen the photos. Your gallery thing is very similar to mine.... I have written a bash script which increases the (partially dynamic) generation of gallery pages with multiple size etc. Perhaps we could collaborate in that point? Try http://henning:muh at pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/test/admin.cgi?action=edit_desc and tell me if you like the idea (I know it's not new.... of course....) The controller..... I am still fighting against my reason..... Shipping is very expensive and I don't know if I will ever use the RTP stuff again because I have problems with my other cards: my digital input and output card don't do anything reasonable - and I cannot get any documentation. the only thing which works perfectly is the analog output (really cute device - sound card for the honeywell??) So PLEASE give me some time to think about it again. If you have already had costs, I will pay them in any case! Best regards, Philipp :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 15 10:21:21 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:21:21 -0700 Subject: decimal computing In-Reply-To: <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42370B81.4070603@jetnet.ab.ca> >That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and >the CPU. In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, connected bycables > to the CPU cabinet. A wise designer would run parity on that interconnect. >That's still true: high end "system on a chip" designs have ECC memory > AND parity (at least) on the buses -- even if they only run inside the chip. > I don't actually know if there was parity there. Probably yes, since > As for sign bit per digit, in the 1620 the "sign" bit serves two > purposes -- on the least significant digit it's the sign of the >number, on the most significant digit it's the "this is the last >digit" marker.Not that the 1620 is all that efficient -- at 12 digits per >instruction, code density was pretty low. I don't think that the code density was that bad since it was a two address instruction. If you consider at the time most computers had the power of a 4 function calculator with tiny amount of data memory the base machine with 20,000 digit memory was a lot of memory. What was real inefficient was converting from internal codes to external coding like printers, paper tape, punch cards all with different formats. (I don't have one, I just read the book about it) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:41:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:41:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mag Tapes was RE: Got Videotrax card working In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > > > > Are you sure you're not thinking of Archive? I find more Archive 2150S > > > drives than anything else in old machines. > > > > > FWIW, I've never seen Archives on IBM (I suppose you are thinking of AS/400, > > S/36 and the likes), but loads of Tandbergs. > > Exactly. Almost all the older RS/6000 server-class systems had an IBM > branded Tandberg QIC drive. I'm not familiar with the AS/400, but they > might well have used them also. I've found the Archive 2150S in a lot of Sun stuff, and most recently in the Stellar graphics supercomputer. Plus a lot in other machines but it's not worth the time to wrack my brain to remember which. Perhaps IBM was fond of Tandberg, but everyone else was fond of Archive. I have a guy I sell tape drives to in batches and most of what he requests are the Archive 2150S. He's a repair shop with lots of gubment contracts. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:43:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <42364606.3070205@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I just received a pair of PerSci 8" floppy drives, with a PerSci 1070 > S-100 controller (and a mountain of docs, including data sheets, sales > literature, and schematics). > > Unfortunately, I won't have an S-100 system for a few more weeks. > It's stuck in Arizona till I get out there to ship it. > > The question is, is this one of the drives that plays nicely with a > PC FDC? I have a couple of older ISA IDE/FD controllers, and an Adaptec > 1542 if I can dig it up. Does it have a standard data connector? This should be a 50-conductor edge conncetor. I have a Pertec drive with a proprietary connector. Pertec != PerSci but I thought I'd throw this out there. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Mar 15 11:16:11 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:16:11 +0100 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Thanks! Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? Would I need anything else ? Stefan. At 02:31 15-3-2005, you wrote: >Stefan wrote: > > Can anybody give me any information about this drive ? > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/qume/ ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 15 11:22:13 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:22:13 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503151604.j2FG4n4E011607@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503151722.j2FHMEXW002801@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I remain convinced that USB, not parallel, is the "right" way to go for interfacing a Universal Floppy Disk controller. The whole purpose of the device is to be a "bridge" between old and new. The "old" side is fixed, it's the drives we want to interface to. But the new side is "today's PCs", only "today" really doesn't mean "today" but really today and tomorrow. Parallel and serial ports are disappearing RIGHT NOW. Some new PCs -- most new notebooks -- already don't have them (and yes, I might want to use this with a notebook). It's 2005 now, and we are talking about designing a device that doesn't exist yet. What about 2008, 2009 ..... even 2015? USB interfaces essentially "started" in about 2003 and in my view will likely exist for about as long as RS-232 devices existed, e.g. decades. Why? What was RS-232 used in? Electronic equipment, LOTS of it, but almost NO consumer equipment. What is USB used in? Electronic equipment, lots of it. AND ... Digital Cameras, MP3 players, cell phones, GPS receivers .... the list is endless. USB is both just starting, and so completely ubiquitous (and, very importantly, in BOTH "lab" equipment AND "consumer" equipment) that it's going to be around for decades to come. Parallel port? The primary use has always been printers. But you can't even find a printer with a parallel port easily, and parallel ports in PCs are already starting to disappear. This is a device that we want to be useful now and in the future, and I firmly believe that any serious analysis will conclude that USB is the way to go. [Someone questioned if the speed was adequate. USB 1.x is 12 megabits per second, USB 2.x is 480 megabits per second. The target devices are floppy disk drives, to which the maximum write bitrate is 1 megabit per second. Clearly USB 2 can do absolutely anything that would be relevent, and there's not much, if anything, that USB 1 couldn't do.] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 15 11:37:53 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:37:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> from "joe heck" at Mar 15, 2005 08:11:14 AM Message-ID: <200503151737.j2FHbrCr010131@onyx.spiritone.com> > board, but I guess if anybody really cared how old I was, they could > find out. It's frightening to find out how easy it is to obtain that information now. My excuse for not sending it is I don't remember. Zane From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 15 11:45:47 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:45:47 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy Message-ID: <408509f408291b.408291b408509f@optonline.net> > Just like stating raw clock speedtoday for marketing. >I can buy a N GHZ machine but can anybody tell me > the real speed of instruction abc on data xyz? Sure, if you know all of the environmental issues (condition of pipeline, status of cache, etc). I have worked on a significant number of Pentium (and other pipelined multi-level cached) based systems for engineering projects, and *sometimes* we do have to actually still calculate this stuff out to prove that a design will work under various system and data conditions. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 15 11:50:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:50:32 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42372068.5080003@oldskool.org> Paul Koning wrote: > My suspicion is that choice of media is a big contributor. For > example, I will no longer use Fuji media of any kind for any purpose > under any circumstance, after ALL (100 percent) of my Fuji audio > cassettes died within just a few years, while NONE of any other brand > did. Hopefully you are saying that you will never buy Fuji audio cassettes ever again -- if you are saying you'll never buy ANY Fuji media of ANY kind ever again, that isn't exactly rational :-) BTW, how does an audio cassette "fail"? What exactly happened? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 15 11:52:14 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:52:14 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <000301c52955$e53d83a0$4601a8c0@retrobbs.org> References: <000301c52955$e53d83a0$4601a8c0@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <423720CE.4010604@oldskool.org> Mark Firestone wrote: > I'm going to start putting all my cd-r stuff on single layer DVD. By > the time I'm done with that, I might be able to afford dual layer disks > for my burner. Then blue laser will be out... Maybe I should just put > it on two serial ata 120 gig hard drives. It might last longer between > copies.... Although your reply was probably meant as sarcastic, it drives home the point that you should always have at least two copies of data that is important to you. If you copied all your CDs over to DVD and then discarded the CDs, that would be foolish. (Not directing this at you specifically, just in general.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 15 11:58:45 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:58:45 -0800 Subject: decimal computing References: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42370B81.4070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42372255.7F2F30CA@msm.umr.edu> woodelf wrote: > >That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and > >the CPU. In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, connected bycables > > to the CPU cabinet. A wise designer would run parity on that > interconnect. The 1620 I had had the memory stack pretty much in the area under the area of the machine with the console. Only box box. Perhaps a larger system with expansion memory or chassis had external, but the one we had in Lafayette, La had the memory in the box. only thing external was the reader punch and printer. > > >That's still true: high end "system on a chip" designs have ECC memory > > AND parity (at least) on the buses -- even if they only run inside > the chip. > > I don't actually know if there was parity there. Probably yes, since > > As for sign bit per digit, in the 1620 the "sign" bit serves two > > purposes -- on the least significant digit it's the sign of the > >number, on the most significant digit it's the "this is the last > >digit" marker.Not that the 1620 is all that efficient -- at 12 digits per > >instruction, code density was pretty low. > > I don't think that the code density was that bad since it was a two > address instruction. > If you consider at the time most computers had the power of a 4 function > calculator > with tiny amount of data memory the base machine with 20,000 digit memory > was a lot of memory. What was real inefficient was converting from > internal codes > to external coding like printers, paper tape, punch cards all with > different formats. > (I don't have one, I just read the book about it) An undergraduate that fell in love with the one we got up and running wrote a simulator that ran in Multics Basic, which was compiled, in an timeshare environment that ran 5 to 10 times faster than the original machine. Ran ASM and Fortran, since the school had decided to have one of the few multics machines with a card reader. As I remember, it was a documation that was hooked thru the DN355, but someone else might remember better Jim From lcourtney at mvista.com Tue Mar 15 12:05:40 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:05:40 -0800 Subject: decimal computing In-Reply-To: <42370B81.4070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Sorry, minor nit... > In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, connected bycables > to the CPU cabinet. The first 20K characters of memory resided in the CPU cabinet, up to 40K characters of optional add-on memory resided in the external cabinet. Cheers, Lee Courtney CHM 1620 Restoration Team Member > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:21 AM > To: General at mvista.com; Discussion at mvista.com:On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: decimal computing > > > >That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and > >the CPU. In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, > connected bycables > > to the CPU cabinet. A wise designer would run parity on that > interconnect. > >That's still true: high end "system on a chip" designs have ECC memory > > AND parity (at least) on the buses -- even if they only run inside > the chip. > > I don't actually know if there was parity there. Probably yes, since > > As for sign bit per digit, in the 1620 the "sign" bit serves two > > purposes -- on the least significant digit it's the sign of the > >number, on the most significant digit it's the "this is the last > >digit" marker.Not that the 1620 is all that efficient -- at 12 > digits per > >instruction, code density was pretty low. > > I don't think that the code density was that bad since it was a two > address instruction. > If you consider at the time most computers had the power of a 4 function > calculator > with tiny amount of data memory the base machine with 20,000 digit memory > was a lot of memory. What was real inefficient was converting from > internal codes > to external coding like printers, paper tape, punch cards all with > different formats. > (I don't have one, I just read the book about it) > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 15 12:29:19 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:29:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <200503151829.KAA24775@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Barry Watzman" > > >I remain convinced that USB, not parallel, is the "right" way to go for >interfacing a Universal Floppy Disk controller. > Hi Barry I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way. Still, I believe that development work should be done in an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind what the final product will be like. In other words, don't lock the design into one specific format. The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers for each machine it is connected to. These have to be specific to the USB device we use to interface with. RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine. I just wish that USB was that simple. Dwight From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Mar 15 12:31:23 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:31:23 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? Message-ID: I have a PDP-11/23 and would like to add a hard disk. Would the RQDX3 be the way to go? What do I need besides the board itself and an MFM drive? Obviously, I need some sort of cable to connect the two. Is there anything else I need? Will RT-11 V5 support an MFM drive on an RQDX3? From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Mar 15 12:51:26 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:51:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, > I have a PDP-11/23 and would like to add a hard disk. Would the RQDX3 > be the way to go? What do I need besides the board itself and an MFM > drive? Obviously, I need some sort of cable to connect the two. Is > there anything else I need? Will RT-11 V5 support an MFM drive on an > RQDX3? The RQDX3 is a great controller. Assuming you can get drives (not always easy!) you need the usual two cables, plus an RDRX distribution board, which splits out the signals. Many people just made a custom cable going from the RQDX3's 50-pin header to the drives, with some pullup R's added in. Failing that, I'd strongly suggest a SCSI controller if you can find (and afford) one, or, quite nice as well, an ESDI controller that does MSCP- it then basically presents the ESDI drive(s) as RAxx drives to the system. Personally, I use all of the above. ESDI is a very good middle way solution.. drives are available, cheap and fast. --f From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Mar 15 12:57:10 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:57:10 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do the drives for the RQDX3 have to be DEC drives or will any MFM drive do? It seems like ST225 drives are fairly easy to find. Anyone have an RQDX3 with cables and distribution board for sale? On Mar 15, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > David, > >> I have a PDP-11/23 and would like to add a hard disk. Would the RQDX3 >> be the way to go? What do I need besides the board itself and an MFM >> drive? Obviously, I need some sort of cable to connect the two. Is >> there anything else I need? Will RT-11 V5 support an MFM drive on an >> RQDX3? > The RQDX3 is a great controller. Assuming you can get drives (not > always easy!) you need the usual two cables, plus an RDRX distribution > board, which splits out the signals. Many people just made a custom > cable going from the RQDX3's 50-pin header to the drives, with some > pullup R's added in. > > Failing that, I'd strongly suggest a SCSI controller if you can find > (and afford) one, or, quite nice as well, an ESDI controller that > does MSCP- it then basically presents the ESDI drive(s) as > RAxx drives to the system. > > Personally, I use all of the above. ESDI is a very good middle > way solution.. drives are available, cheap and fast. > > --f > From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Mar 15 12:58:53 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:58:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: ontopicness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All, Due to the insane S/N ratio on this list and some fairly insulting comments from list members, I decided (quite a while ago) to unsub. For some reason I still get the list, but after wading through about 11,000 of these (I was away for a long time) I have just decided that the topicness is still an issue, so I'll leave again. Ontopic and/or personal email is welcomed. Offtopic, inflamatory or simply stupid content will be deleted without further comment... I've had it. Ed Sharpe: pse contact me off-list re the DPS, or its going to the scrapper. Michael Sokolov: ditto re the 6000. Dan Williams: I'll contact you offlist re the truckride. Oh.. I'm also to be found on the #classiccmp channel, although not always :) Cheers, Fred From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 13:12:49 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:12:49 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> The question is, is this one of the drives that plays nicely with a >>PC FDC? I have a couple of older ISA IDE/FD controllers, and an Adaptec >>1542 if I can dig it up. > > > Does it have a standard data connector? This should be a 50-conductor > edge conncetor. Looks like a standard 50-pin edge connector, yes. After reading a little in the owner's manual, it's MFM, dual density, so worst case I should be able to run it on an older PC-based FDC, right? Doc From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 13:11:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:11:25 -0600 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl><48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Stefan" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:16 AM > Thanks! > Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a > FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? > Would I need anything else ? > > Stefan. What are you trying to do with it? While technically it can be connected to most any desktop PC there are some very important things to keep in mind: It is extremely similar to 5.25" HD drives there are some important differences including but not limited to number of tracks, the 8" drive only has 77 tracks. Most modern PC's can not handle FM data (single density). If you are want to use it as another MSDOS drive I do not recommend it. Once formatted MS/PC DOS will read/write to it without any problems. The standard formatter will NOT work, after the 77th track the standard DOS formatter will try to continue to step out which can damage the drive. Some PC's may see it as only 40 tracks and not recognize that it handles "high-density" 500kbs. If you are trying to read/write classic disks such as CP/M disks you may find you need to be able to handle FM. To get around the FM "problem" there are several existing solutions: Buy a catweasel mk4. Find an older PC, many handle FM just fine but only trial and error will let you know. Some older add-on cards work with FM including some Adaptec ISA SCSI controllers with a floppy disk port. It may help to build a list of systems/boards that handle FM. I use a Compaq Prolinea 575e (P100). You will need a 34 to 50 pin cable. The pin-out is available on my website. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Mar 15 13:29:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:29:42 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42372068.5080003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <16951.14246.997642.870842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Leonard writes: Jim> Paul Koning wrote: >> My suspicion is that choice of media is a big contributor. For >> example, I will no longer use Fuji media of any kind for any >> purpose under any circumstance, after ALL (100 percent) of my Fuji >> audio cassettes died within just a few years, while NONE of any >> other brand did. Jim> Hopefully you are saying that you will never buy Fuji audio Jim> cassettes ever again -- if you are saying you'll never buy ANY Jim> Fuji media of ANY kind ever again, that isn't exactly rational Jim> :-) No, I meant media of any kind. Yes, that IS rational -- I feel that the lack of quality in one area is a predictor of lack of quality in other areas. Especially magnetic media of other kinds (e.g., DLT), but I choose to carry it over to CD/DVD media as well. Jim> BTW, how does an audio cassette "fail"? What exactly happened? Squeek squeek sounds coming from the player, and also on the playback sound, sufficient to obliterate the music. On all of them -- at least ten, probably more. I have probably 100 cassettes; no other brand, even cheap ones, have ever failed on me in that fashion. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 15 13:32:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:32:18 -0500 Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes... In-Reply-To: References: <42366872.30209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315142538.052a63e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: >Parity checking is the job of the memory controller, not the processor. In >fact, I am having a hard time thinking of a processor that did its own >parity checking in software (yes, I know any processor could do it, but >did any really do it?). 8085? There's a P bit in the condition code register (in 6809 speak) -- I think it's called the PSW -- Program Status Word? I'm just beginning learning assembly on my Tandy 10x/200 machines... Anyway, there are several arithmetic operations that automatically set the Parity bit and there are branch and return instructions that utilize the status of the P bit. > Even if the parity checking is a lowly 74180, like >in a microcomputer - it is still not boggin down the processor. The >processor really doesn't need to know about parity, unless things go bad. Altho it's not a *huge* need, it can be handy for serial I/O... that would be a function that uses parity, but is not reliant on the memory controller. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 13:43:30 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:30 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:12 PM > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>> The question is, is this one of the drives that plays nicely with a >>>PC FDC? I have a couple of older ISA IDE/FD controllers, and an Adaptec >>>1542 if I can dig it up. >> >> >> Does it have a standard data connector? This should be a 50-conductor >> edge conncetor. > > Looks like a standard 50-pin edge connector, yes. After reading a > little in the owner's manual, it's MFM, dual density, so worst case I > should be able to run it on an older PC-based FDC, right? > > > Doc The 277 is a fast repeat fast single sided floppy drive. The high-speed seek can be ignored but what can not be ignored is the track location. Being a dual drive both heads move at the same time, this can confuse some software. Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. The Persci's also have a slew of jumpers, it is best just to try it the way it is. The Persci's are very sensative, shipping often destroys them. To ship it you need a special cardboard shipping retainer to keep the heads from slamming back and forth. It also uses special wheat-lamps that burn out easily. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 15 13:47:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:47:10 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <42372068.5080003@oldskool.org> References: <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com> <42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> <16950.65246.556223.449005@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315144032.052c8320@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Paul Koning wrote: >>My suspicion is that choice of media is a big contributor. For >>example, I will no longer use Fuji media of any kind for any purpose >>under any circumstance, after ALL (100 percent) of my Fuji audio >>cassettes died within just a few years, while NONE of any other brand >>did. > >Hopefully you are saying that you will never buy Fuji audio cassettes ever >again -- if you are saying you'll never buy ANY Fuji media of ANY kind >ever again, that isn't exactly rational :-) [[ Insert lame attempt to keep this ontopic... ]]] That depends on the manufacturer... Memorex has sucked for 20 years - I've never had a good audio cassette, 5.25" floppy, 3.5" floppy, CDR, CDRW ad nauseum out of them, and even if they came out with a 23 googolbyte holographic storage disk and reader tomorrow, I wouldn't buy the frelling thing. :-O ;-) [[ End lame attempt... I *told* you it was lame! ]] However, I've had nothing but excellent luck with Fuji CD-Rs, and the last time I'd checked, they were OEMmed by Taiyo Yuden. For DVD-R, I've had very good luck with Ritek G03/G04/G05 disks (and Pioneer burners) ... but I'd like to hear where you could get some Gold DVD-Rs for archive as well. [[ Plug your ears, Tony! ;-) ]] I have a lot of Raw format pictures from my digital camera that I'd like to archive on something designed for archiving -- I'm also thinking of vacuum packing 'em before I put 'em in the safety deposit box... ;-) That, and I'd like to back up a lot of my classic info, as well... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Tue Mar 15 13:49:25 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:49:25 -0500 Subject: Your age statistics In-Reply-To: <003101c5295a$d68f2cf0$0202a8c0@ORG> References: <003101c5295a$d68f2cf0$0202a8c0@ORG> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050315144809.01d11ea0@pop.cogeco.ca> At 07:30 AM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >At the risk of tilting your age spectrum report, I must admit to possibly >being the eldest computer nut on the list. I noticed a complete lack of >cohorts in this age group, they must be either all deceased or devastated >by Alzheimer's.... > >Fred Hatfield, age 76. Fred, you are just approaching middle age! I just turned eighty. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 13:50:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:50:42 -0600 Subject: Handling FM disks on PC's References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl><48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130><6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <001201c52998$48f39d20$303dd7d1@randylaptop> I would like to make a list of cards/computers that can handle FM. I have two Compaq Prolinea 575e's (P100's) that work. Of course the Compati-cards are FM compatible. Can everyone that knows they have a setup that works please respond and tell what they use, please include the exact model number. When complete I will post the list on my website. Thanks, Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 15 14:00:15 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:00:15 -0000 Subject: Static damage was Re: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts References: <200503141712.JAA24088@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <005801c52999$9b4bd320$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >From: "Tom Jennings" > > > >CMOS isn't *THAT* sensitive; easy, benign, reasonable precautions > >are more than adequate. Ben, the days of early MOS/CMOS > >hypersensitivity to static are long gone. Even 1970's 4000 series > >had input-protection diodes. > > The 4051,4052 and 4053 were very static sensitive. But it > is try that most were relatively insensitive. Still, if you > are hitting a part with a spark large enough to make > a sound, you are most likely doing some damage, even if > it doesn't show right away. > Dwight > >From dvcorbin> >Duiring the '70s and '80s I worked at a company that made >many military and space grade components. A percentage >were de-lidded at the end of each lot and sent to a SEM >(Scanning Electron Microscope) to look for static damage, >that had NOT effected functionallity. If any (above a very >small threshold) was found, the ENTIRE lot was scrapped >[although they really became samples, lab grade, etc...] > > >It was AMAZING, the various craters and cracks that were >caused by static that you could not see, feel, or hear.... > >Wish I still had some of the prints.... The damage without imediate failure of components by static is known as "Latent Failure", and is a very real problem. These failures can show up as apparently random device failures for many years after the damage was done. As an example, one of the systems I look after is a remote control system for radio transmitters and receivers, and it uses CMOS ic's in FSK modems to send and receive control signals to the remote equipment. It was installed in around 1982, and soon gained a terrible reputation for reliability - if you went a day without a fault, you were doing well! When I joined the section in 1991, as the new boy, I was given this to look after :-( I, along with another new, young engineer implemented anti static precautions around the kit (they hadn't seen much CMOS before this, and where of the opinion that if it didn't fail imediatly, why was everyone making such a fuss...). After a couple of months, the failure rate dropped dramatically. The kit is still working (approaching its 25th year), and now it is rare to touch it from one anual maintenance to the next! Interestingly, the previous generation of radio remote control equipment (built around 1967, and still going strong!), used a qauntity of 74 series TTL, and despite no ESD precautions, has hardly had any of it's logic devices changed (wish I could say the same about the germanium transistors in the alarm shift register - a 24 bit serial in parallel out unit built with discrete components, and runing at around 4bits / second - you need a storage scope to fault find). I take ESD very seriously on all logic systems, especially classic ones - I would hate to accidentally "zap" that irreplaceable chip... Jim. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 15 14:08:40 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:08:40 +0000 Subject: Static damage was Re: OT Troubleshooting: Old computers with modern parts In-Reply-To: <005801c52999$9b4bd320$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <200503141712.JAA24088@clulw009.amd.com> <005801c52999$9b4bd320$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <423740C8.4040206@gjcp.net> Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >>>From: "Tom Jennings" >>> >>>CMOS isn't *THAT* sensitive; easy, benign, reasonable precautions >>>are more than adequate. Ben, the days of early MOS/CMOS >>>hypersensitivity to static are long gone. Even 1970's 4000 series >>>had input-protection diodes. >> >> The 4051,4052 and 4053 were very static sensitive. But it >>is try that most were relatively insensitive. Still, if you >>are hitting a part with a spark large enough to make >>a sound, you are most likely doing some damage, even if >>it doesn't show right away. >>Dwight >> I've changed an unholy amount of these in old analogue synthesizers. Ensoniq Mirages seem to be the worst for it. Gordon. From bv at norbionics.com Tue Mar 15 13:46:12 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:46:12 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <42367EF6.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42367EF6.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:21:42 +0100, woodelf wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Well the 1620 was a variable length machine ... A sign/flag bit made >>> more sence at the time since >>> you only had as many BCD digits as you needed. >>> >> >> It is still very inefficient, with lots of wasted bits. It would not >> matter with a small machine like a 1620, but it does when the system >> gets >> larger. Even a small S/360 dwarfs a 1620. All those wasted bits add up. >> > The 1620 is BCD serial ... slow but then lots less $$$ than a 360. > Since I only got to know small computers like a PDP 8 and a IBM1130 > I never had to deal with the bigger stuff. The 1620 was one of the first computers I used, but only at high-level (FORTRAN II). Compiling was interesting - put the source cards in the reader, punch out an intermediate deck, then pass both through for the second pass. I used it for my physics lab tests, plotted nice graphs on the Calcomp drum plotter. We also had a line printer making 50 lines per minute. I never saw one like it, characters were on quarter-circle segments which rotated back and forth. The Univac 1107 was a more impressive beast, with both a drum storage and a drum printer. One of my major goofs was when I first used the drum, not knowing that it did not write any end of file marker. Computer time was valuable in the sixties, and my program was reading from the drum for 20 minutes before the operator terminated it. My favourite old big iron is the NCR 315. I worked for NCR Norway, who hade one in their data processing center. The 315 was, of course, a BCD system. It had 12-bit bytes (which were calles slabs, since the byte term was not established when it was new), and 24-bit words. I just found a couple of old pictures of the operator looking helplessly at a mess of magnetic tape. The really cool thing was that most of the input came from OCR - cash register journals written with National Optical Font. Scanned by a rotating drum with a tiny diamond-shaped opening and a photomultiplier inside. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Tue Mar 15 14:04:27 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:04:27 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <16950.7179.201548.258195@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <16950.7179.201548.258195@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:19:39 +0100, Paul Koning wrote: > > Huh? Knuth's "Fundamental Algorithms" came out well after the PDP-10 > (never mind the earlier PDP-6, which is the same architecture). Hm - yes, I remember he got sidetracked by typesetting problems. It took a very long time before it hit the bookstores. I think we were writing MIX-simulators based on mimeographed excerpts, I did not get the book until long after I left university. And I suddenly realized I had been thinking of the DECsystem 10, not the PDP-10. This cold is giving me bitrot! -- Bj?rn From acme at gbronline.com Tue Mar 15 14:27:46 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:27:46 -0500 Subject: Age References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129><00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007><00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <3.0.6.32.20050313181023.00881700@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c5299d$73cac500$3d4f0945@acme> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe R. To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:10 PM Subject: Re: Age > At 09:05 PM 3/13/05 +0000, Pete wrote: > >On Mar 13 2005, 20:00, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > >> 55 listmembers have answered. > > > >I was going to send a reply, but it got a bit long, and the gremlins > >ate it while I left it lying around to be edited. +1 to the "50-54" > >category. > > Same here. I started a reply but it got too long so I gave up. Maybe this > age group should win a prize for laziness :-) > > Joe Okay, count me in as well for a) 50-54 b) reply got too long and c) laziness :-) Glen 0/0 From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 14:26:10 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:26:10 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com> <000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Doc Shipley" >> >> Looks like a standard 50-pin edge connector, yes. After reading a >> little in the owner's manual, it's MFM, dual density, so worst case I >> should be able to run it on an older PC-based FDC, right? > > > The 277 is a fast repeat fast single sided floppy drive. > > The high-speed seek can be ignored but what can not be ignored is the > track location. Being a dual drive both heads move at the same time, > this can confuse some software. > > Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? By the way, both your site and Herb Johnson's have been very helpful already. Thanks! > The Persci's also have a slew of jumpers, it is best just to try it the > way it is. So I've read. I also gathered that the jumpers are soldered 0-ohm resistors, not shunt blocks. Correct? > The Persci's are very sensative, shipping often destroys them. To ship > it you need a special cardboard shipping retainer to keep the heads from > slamming back and forth. It shipped with the retainer in place. And the original packing, and 2 thick binders of documentation. I wondered why he shipped it with only one insert, but if both heads move in concert, that makes more sense. > It also uses special wheat-lamps that burn out easily. Uhhh. Are there replacements available? Given the 277's temperament, I suppose I also need to see if the PerSci 1070 will drive non-PerSci drives.... Doc From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 15 14:31:21 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:31:21 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 ? In-Reply-To: <423740C8.4040206@gjcp.net> References: <200503141712.JAA24088@clulw009.amd.com> <005801c52999$9b4bd320$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <423740C8.4040206@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42374619.7060809@atarimuseum.com> No time like now to start preparing... So what is the status of VCF East this year? Approx date/month? Are we gonna have it at Sun again? It was nice having it there, but the logistics of security, sign-in and getting equipment in were rather rough. Curt From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 15 14:49:44 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:49:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes, still tastes like nothing In-Reply-To: References: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050315124841.K1589@localhost> I've heard of "off topic", and admit to extending some myself, but this thread at this point seems utterly "topic free". Can it move to cctalk? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 14:55:49 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:55:49 -0800 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <200503151737.j2FHbrCr010131@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> <200503151737.j2FHbrCr010131@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: When this survey started I really enjoyed the list of early computers used that people added. It would be both on topic and fun to continue. For me the first I used was an IBM 1130 in 1974 or 5. The first I bought was a Litton 1251 in 1983. I guess I did use a Wang 360 card programable calculator in 1969, that might count too. I already posted my age for the survey. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR US From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 15:22:44 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:22:44 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com><000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <005c01c529a5$248250f0$2a3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:26 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> From: "Doc Shipley" >>> >>> Looks like a standard 50-pin edge connector, yes. After reading a >>> little in the owner's manual, it's MFM, dual density, so worst case I >>> should be able to run it on an older PC-based FDC, right? >> >> >> The 277 is a fast repeat fast single sided floppy drive. >> >> The high-speed seek can be ignored but what can not be ignored is the >> track location. Being a dual drive both heads move at the same time, >> this can confuse some software. >> >> Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. > > I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the > line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? No problem with soldering, for crimping IDC connectors: before I got a crimper I used vises, for a vise with metal jaws I put in blocks of wood for cushioning. > By the way, both your site and Herb Johnson's have been very helpful > already. Thanks! > >> The Persci's also have a slew of jumpers, it is best just to try it the >> way it is. > > So I've read. I also gathered that the jumpers are soldered 0-ohm > resistors, not shunt blocks. Correct? On the Persci I hade it just used bare solid wire, a 0-ohm resister will work OK also. >> The Persci's are very sensative, shipping often destroys them. To ship >> it you need a special cardboard shipping retainer to keep the heads from >> slamming back and forth. > > It shipped with the retainer in place. And the original packing, and 2 > thick binders of documentation. > > I wondered why he shipped it with only one insert, but if both heads > move in concert, that makes more sense. >From the factory it only came with one, when you retain one head the other is held by the same yoke. >> It also uses special wheat-lamps that burn out easily. > > Uhhh. Are there replacements available? > > Given the 277's temperament, I suppose I also need to see if the PerSci > 1070 will drive non-PerSci drives.... S100 disk controllers are easy to get, Herb sells them. A Persci controller should work just fine with any SA800 drive but may require software changes and maybe one jumper (-TEST on 179X controllers). > Doc Randy www.s100-manuals.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 15:32:45 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:32:45 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <005c01c529a5$248250f0$2a3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com><000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> <005c01c529a5$248250f0$2a3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <4237547D.3050204@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Doc Shipley" > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:26 PM > >> Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> >>> From: "Doc Shipley" >>> > No problem with soldering, for crimping IDC connectors: before I got a > crimper I used vises, for a vise with metal jaws I put in blocks of wood > for cushioning. If I can find the IDC connectors, I may try that first. >> I wondered why he shipped it with only one insert, but if both heads >> move in concert, that makes more sense. > > > From the factory it only came with one, when you retain one head the > other is held by the same yoke. Right. So maybe this set's in in good shape. > S100 disk controllers are easy to get, Herb sells them. A Persci > controller should work just fine with any SA800 drive but may require > software changes and maybe one jumper (-TEST on 179X controllers). Very cool. I can't wait to get the Cromemco home. So many toys; so little time.... Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Mar 15 15:39:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:39:29 +0000 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com> <000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42375611.2090907@gjcp.net> Doc Shipley wrote: >> Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. > I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the > line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? Not got any doors in your house then? Gordon. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 15:44:00 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:44:00 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <42375611.2090907@gjcp.net> References: <423733B1.9030209@mdrconsult.com> <000801c52997$5caab8e0$303dd7d1@randylaptop> <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> <42375611.2090907@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42375720.6000208@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. > > >> I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the >> line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? > > > Not got any doors in your house then? More-or-less married these nine years, to a lady who's wise to my ways. It would be less painful by far to hunt down a crimper. Doc From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 15 15:53:43 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:53:43 -0500 Subject: VT-100 terminal wanted Message-ID: <002a01c529a9$756bfb70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Anyone out there have a working VT-100 terminal and keyboard they'd be interested in selling? I need to get one to replace one that I'm giving away with a system. If anyone has one for sale, send me a private reply to wacarder at usit.net. Thanks, Ashley From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 15 15:58:16 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:58:16 -0600 Subject: ProComm Plus Message-ID: <003701c529aa$19681d80$66406b43@66067007> Was someone looking for ProComm Plus awhile back? I found a copy on 3.5 FD today in the warehouse along with several manuals of different versions. Let me know what you need from it. John From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 15 16:05:58 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:05:58 -0500 Subject: VT-100 terminal wanted References: <002a01c529a9$756bfb70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <004f01c529ab$2b8cc780$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Anyone out there have a working VT-100 terminal > and keyboard they'd be interested in selling? I > need to get one to replace one that I'm giving away > with a system. > > If anyone has one for sale, send me a private > reply to wacarder at usit.net. I'm also open to trade. I have various old unibus stuff, primarily 11/34 parts and various misc. Ashley From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Mar 15 16:17:44 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:17:44 +0100 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315231310.0292d398@mail.zeelandnet.nl> At 20:11 15-3-2005, you wrote: >>Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a >>FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? >>Would I need anything else ? >> >>Stefan. > > >What are you trying to do with it? I have whole piles of various 8" floppies and I just want to read them, I dont perse need to write anything (nice to have but not necessary). >Buy a catweasel mk4. Was planning on buying one already so. >Find an older PC, many handle FM just fine but only trial and error will >let you know. Some older add-on cards work with FM including some Adaptec >ISA SCSI controllers with a floppy disk port. > > >It may help to build a list of systems/boards that handle FM. I use a >Compaq Prolinea 575e (P100). Have plenty of old controllers so should I have FDADAP I could perhaps make a list of which work and which dont. Hmm and ehmm, P100 old ? :) >You will need a 34 to 50 pin cable. The pin-out is available on my website. Well the FDADAP should also take care of that shouldn't it ? From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 15 16:13:50 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:13:50 -0500 Subject: Also still looking for a VT-50 Message-ID: <006801c529ac$450cd5f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> I'm also still looking for a VT-50 for my Wofford Witch computer center to add the authenticity factor to it. The VT52 terminals that I have are filling in quite nicely, and yes, they are a better terminal than the VT50, but I would like to find a working VT50 just to make a system a more authentic replica of the original 1978 computer center. Ashley From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 16:20:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:20:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <42364F9E.6090001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <41832.64.139.41.130.1110847573.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42364F9E.6090001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <36181.64.139.41.130.1110925200.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ben wrote: > But not writing near the edge will help with finger prints. Fingerprints have relatively little effect on CDs or DVDs, because the laser is tightly focused on the reflective layer, not the surface. Naturally it is still best to avoid getting figerprints on the disc as much as possible. I try to handle them only by the hub and outer rim. Note that for CDs (but not DVDs), dmage to the top (label-side) surface of the disk is *MUCH* more likely to cause problems than damage to the bottom, because the actual data surface is only under a thin layer of lacquer and silkscreening. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 16:24:14 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:24:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42365173.1060306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42365173.1060306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <37154.64.139.41.130.1110925454.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ben wrote: > Digikey has a minum order. I know I just ordered a CPLD development kit > from them. Anybody that can't find $25 worth of stuff they want to buy from Digikey isn't very serious about hardware hacking. > If you have about $100 us you can get Atmel programimg CPLD kit. You > need windows > and 9 volt .5 amp wall wart to get started. A CPLD is about $10 us. > Ben alias woodelf Why would you want to spend $100 plus $10/part for Atmel stuff, when you can the software for Xilinx CPLDs for free, build your own cable for under $10, and buy the chips for $1 to $3? Xilinx has a CPLD design kit for $50 that includes a board with two CPLDs, a JTAG programming cable, and the software and documentation on CD. http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_prodcat_product.jsp?title=design_kit Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Mar 15 16:28:01 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:28:01 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <36181.64.139.41.130.1110925200.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <41832.64.139.41.130.1110847573.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42364F9E.6090001@jetnet.ab.ca> <36181.64.139.41.130.1110925200.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42376171.3030805@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > I try to handle them only by the hub and outer > rim. I handle them only by the rim. I once handled a disc so much by both the hub and rim that I ended up getting the inner hub so oily (due to contact with my fingers) over time that it didn't spin at a consistent speed any more as the hub locking mechanism couldn't get a decent grip on it. It took me over an hour to figure out why the disc wasn't working consistently. Granted, this was in 1995-era DOS days, but still... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 16:34:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:34:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503150559.AAA06002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <200503150559.AAA06002@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <39114.64.139.41.130.1110926047.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote about Xilinx software: > These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you > can download from the Xilinx web site, der Mouse wrote: > I'm not sure it's really fair to call running someone else's > binary-only software "zero-cost". That kind of risk is relatively > expensive, in trouble and safeguards if all goes well, in putting the > machine back together one way or another if not. If I thought Xilinx software was going to do nasty stuff, I'd run it in a virtual machine set up for that purpose. Problem solved. It takes me less than a minute to dup an existing virgin virtual machine image for such purposes. By your sort of definition, no software is "zero cost". I was only referring to the purchase price. Perhaps "no charge" would be a better term, or maybe you'd disagree with that too. If you want to talk "total cost of ownership", I'd be delighted to see examples of other CPLD development software with lower TCO than the Xilinx stuff. > If, as I fully expect to be the case[%], it's also software that runs > only under closed-source licensed-for-$ operating systems, it's not You expect wrong. Xilinx software runs on Linux. Officially only on Red Hat Enterprise Linux, but it's actually nearly trivial to get it running on Fedora Core, and shouldn't be too difficult on other distributions. The current downloadable "no-charge" release, 6.3i, runs on Linux using Wine. However, if you order a CD of WebPACK 7.3i (and pay the shipping and handling fee), it includes a native Linux version, which will also be available for "no-charge" download within the next two weeks. > anything like zero-cost, since it demands buying RTU the relevant OS. I suppose if someone was handing out DVDs without requiring you to pay for them, you'd complain that they weren't "zero-cost" because you had to buy a DVD player or DVD-ROM drive to use them. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 16:37:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:37:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <005101c5296c$769f8620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200503150157.RAA24314@clulw009.amd.com><42367FAF.1070107@oldskool.org> <015901c5292f$958b8e40$ea781941@game> <005101c5296c$769f8620$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <39359.64.139.41.130.1110926250.squirrel@64.139.41.130> John wrote: > (Somebody mentioned that gold media was still available but expensive. > Somebody else said that it was likely the best for longevity.) > > Rather than complain, how about mentioning how to obtain > this "archivist grade" material? Google for "gold CD-R", perhaps with "Mitsui" or "Taiyo Yuden" as well. If you want gold media, be careful to study the vendor's web site to make sure that's what you're really buying, rather than silver-gold alloy or other junk. Caveat emptor. Silver-gold alloy reportedly does have better longevity than plain silver, but isn't nearly as good as plain gold. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 16:40:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:40:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <39635.64.139.41.130.1110926438.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Stefan wrote: > Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a > FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? Yes. > Would I need anything else ? Power supply, cables. If you want to read single density, a PC with a single-density-capable floppy disk controller. Many aren't, and the only sure way to tell is to try it. Eric From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 16:42:14 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:42:14 -0600 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl><48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130><6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl><000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315231310.0292d398@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <002201c529b0$3f503090$673dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Stefan" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:17 PM > At 20:11 15-3-2005, you wrote: >>>Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a >>>FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? >>>Would I need anything else ? >>> >>>Stefan. >> >> >>What are you trying to do with it? > > I have whole piles of various 8" floppies and I just want to read them, I > dont perse need to write anything (nice to have but not necessary). > >>Buy a catweasel mk4. > > Was planning on buying one already so. > > >>Find an older PC, many handle FM just fine but only trial and error will >>let you know. Some older add-on cards work with FM including some Adaptec >>ISA SCSI controllers with a floppy disk port. >> >> >>It may help to build a list of systems/boards that handle FM. I use a >>Compaq Prolinea 575e (P100). > > Have plenty of old controllers so should I have FDADAP I could perhaps > make a list of which work and which dont. Hmm and ehmm, P100 old ? :) > > > >>You will need a 34 to 50 pin cable. The pin-out is available on my >>website. > > Well the FDADAP should also take care of that shouldn't it ? If you already have the FDADAP then it's done, many 8" drives don't need TG43 (and none if you only want to read). If you don't already have an FDADAP you may not need it often just a 34 to 50 pin cable does it. Older 8" drives (funny to call one 8" drive older than another) needed a signal to know when it was writing past track 43 for reduced write current. Later drives were "smart" enough to know for themselves. This only applies to writing during reads this is ignored. The FDADAP has a PIC that keeps track of the current track to know when to assert (ground) TG43, for $40.00 it handles more drives than just a cable when writing plus the wiring is done for you. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Mar 15 16:55:16 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:55:16 -0800 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy References: <200503141205.j2EC2Qf0088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200503141651.LAA17963@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4235C997.3000100@jetnet.ab.ca><200503141913.OAA18778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><4235E3AA.90403@jetnet.ab.ca><003d01c528de$3840f8c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> <200503150450.XAA25486@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <002e01c529b2$0dd5cc80$6401a8c0@hal9000> Huh ? Please explain the difference between what Paul and I stated and what you wrote below. They all look the same to me.... ? Best regards, Steven C. > > [h]ere in California, the cultural and computing center of the > > universe (you're suppose to laugh at this point), a "byte" was always > > 8 bits, half-word was 16 bits (or a short-word) and a word was 32 > > bits (or a long-word). Steven C. > > This must be a different California from the one that developed 4.3BSD > for the VAX, a machine on which a byte is 8 bits, a word 16, and 32 is > a long (or more formally longword) - terminology inherited in large > part (in toto?) from the PDP-11 and for some reason I do not understand > not updated to match the VAX. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > "word" for 16 bits and "longword" for 32 bits IS the VAX terminology. > The VAX kept the PDP-11 terminology for the simple reason that the VAX > was supposed to be seen as an upward compatible extension of the > PDP-11. That's clear from the PDP-11 instruction set emulation, of > course. It's also clear from the data formats used -- not just the > integer data but also F and D float come straight from the PDP-11, > even though on a VAX those layouts look very contorted. > > paul From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Mar 15 17:03:29 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:03:29 +0100 Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <002201c529b0$3f503090$673dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050315010030.026e6c48@pop.xs4all.nl> <48246.64.139.41.130.1110850292.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315181358.03458ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <000201c52993$8c90fa50$5f92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.0.6.0.20050315231310.0292d398@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <002201c529b0$3f503090$673dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050316000307.02923170@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Sounds like a good project when I have moved hehe :) Thanks guys! At 23:42 15-3-2005, you wrote: >From: "Stefan" >Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:17 PM >>At 20:11 15-3-2005, you wrote: >>>>Hmm so, am I correct to think I could connect this quite simply to a >>>>FDADAP floppy disk adapter ? >>>>Would I need anything else ? >>>> >>>>Stefan. >>> >>> >>>What are you trying to do with it? >> >>I have whole piles of various 8" floppies and I just want to read them, I >>dont perse need to write anything (nice to have but not necessary). >> >>>Buy a catweasel mk4. >> >>Was planning on buying one already so. >> >> >>>Find an older PC, many handle FM just fine but only trial and error will >>>let you know. Some older add-on cards work with FM including some >>>Adaptec ISA SCSI controllers with a floppy disk port. >>> >>> >>>It may help to build a list of systems/boards that handle FM. I use a >>>Compaq Prolinea 575e (P100). >> >>Have plenty of old controllers so should I have FDADAP I could perhaps >>make a list of which work and which dont. Hmm and ehmm, P100 old ? :) >> >> >> >>>You will need a 34 to 50 pin cable. The pin-out is available on my website. >> >>Well the FDADAP should also take care of that shouldn't it ? > >If you already have the FDADAP then it's done, many 8" drives don't need >TG43 (and none if you only want to read). > >If you don't already have an FDADAP you may not need it often just a 34 to >50 pin cable does it. > >Older 8" drives (funny to call one 8" drive older than another) needed a >signal to know when it was writing past track 43 for reduced write >current. Later drives were "smart" enough to know for themselves. This >only applies to writing during reads this is ignored. > >The FDADAP has a PIC that keeps track of the current track to know when to >assert (ground) TG43, for $40.00 it handles more drives than just a cable >when writing plus the wiring is done for you. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Mar 15 17:02:21 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:02:21 -0800 Subject: Byte sizes, still tastes like nothing References: <200503141802.j2EI02XP092844@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050315124841.K1589@localhost> Message-ID: <003401c529b3$0b3143f0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Tom, Though I am inclined to agree with you in principle..... how can we discuss technology if we do not agree on the terminology? In Ham radio circles how could people discuss issues if everybody had a different concept on what a "Watt" was equal too? I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, just trying to express the importance of the "words" we use to describe things. If we had to explain the context of the usage of the terminology we used in every post, I would be the first to un-subscribe... I do understand your concerns. Best regards, Steven C. > I've heard of "off topic", and admit to extending some myself, but > this thread at this point seems utterly "topic free". > > Can it move to cctalk? > From river at zip.com.au Wed Mar 16 04:59:46 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:59:46 +1100 Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes... Message-ID: <013901c52a17$451efbc0$d926083d@river> Hi, >Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: >>Parity checking is the job of the memory controller, not the processor. In >>fact, I am having a hard time thinking of a processor that did its own >>parity checking in software (yes, I know any processor could do it, but >>did any really do it?). >8085? There's a P bit in the condition code register (in 6809 speak) -- I >think it's called the PSW -- Program Status Word? I'm just beginning >learning assembly on my Tandy 10x/200 machines... Anyway, there are several >arithmetic operations that automatically set the Parity bit and there are >branch and return instructions that utilize the status of the P bit. Yes, the 8080/8085/8086 series chips did parity checking. The PSW had a flag for odd/even parity. Naturally, the Z80, being a superset of the 8080, also had this ability. I assume that the later generations of x86 series chips, for backward compatability, also had the ability to check for parity. The TMS9900 series also did parity checking. >From a cursory glance at the status registers of the 6809 and 68000 processors, it appears these devices did not have inherent parity checking. river From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Mar 15 16:59:33 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:59:33 -0000 Subject: age References: <200503141202.j2EC2Qeu088316@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42359CF8.1040200@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <00b501c529b3$260e8de0$0200a8c0@geoff> Another one in the 50-55 category , actually I'm on the cusp of the next sub-group come April. The important thing is this group is young at heart ( wee-ell most of us :>). ) Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Pechter" To: Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:17 PM Subject: Re: age > Add another one to the 50-54... I'm 50 now hitting 51 in June. > > Bill > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 06:31:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:31:30 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42365AD0.9090803@pacbell.net> References: <200503142216.OAA24238@clulw009.amd.com> <42365AD0.9090803@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1110889890.12696.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 21:47 -0600, Jim Battle wrote: > Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. > > > > A little tough here. 50 mil spaces surface mount. Some soldering > > skills required. > > Catweasel wins this one hands down. Just plug it in. Turn off your running machine, open the case, hope you have a free slot (I certainly don't on this here desktop), start up, hope you don't have IRQ troubles (PCs don't seem to handle loaded PCI buses well). Take case off, unplug board when you want to go to a different site. Go through previous steps again. To me that's a lot more hassle than simply plugging in a *simple* device to the parallel port of a machine. Remember we're not talking about complex electronics here - couple of connectors, some RAM and a bit of glue logic and that's it. (I just thought of another bonus. The parallel - or USB - cable can probably be quite long, meaning the drives that you want to handle can be up on the desk, say. With the catweasel, you're limited to floppy bus length I assume which means hassle every time you want to use a different drive with it) > >> o Open 'source' (all schematics etc. available) > > > > No issue here. > > Except that it doesn't exist. A hypothetical thing has any advantage > that you wish to confer on it. I think Dwight meant 'no issue' as in, no problem releasing any schematics, source etc. I don't forsee the hardware design being that complex. Parallel port interfaces are easy (even I can do that bit ;) and driving the buffer memory shouldn't be difficult. Software-wise, remember that primary goal is archive of old media onto modern systems (and restore back to floppy). It doesn't need understanding of the data stream on the host machine to do that - it's essentially just save and replay. Maybe an hour to write and test code under each OS to do that. > The catweasel design isn't open source, but I believe just about all the > drivers are. Good. If at some stage someone writes a layer to take 'our' raw data stream and do clock separation etc. then we can just use those open- source drivers for manipulating specific format data. > My own desire that motivated me to buy a catweasel was to collect and > archive information. The fact that the collection was done on a > "modern" machine (there are isa and pci versions of the card) doesn't > bother me at all. I'm not knocking the catweasel although I know it sounds like I am. It's great if you have one or two formats you want to read/write, you know what drives you want to use, and you're just using a single machine. But the financial outlay might be discouraging to some people (particularly given the complexity of the board and lack of schematics). My goal with a parallel/USB solution is something cheap and cheerful and portable, primarily designed for archival purposes and not necessarily complete decoding. > #2 isn't relevant -- what do you mean? Sure, some people want to tinker > with HW for the sake of tinkering with HW. I have no fear of > electronics but with my limited time, I get more satisfaction in other > activities. I'd rather spend a few $$ and save hours of effort > collecting, building, troubleshooting so that I have time to do those > other things. I suspect that I'm in the majority otherwise this project > would have been done already. I see it as akin to something like the SGI keyboard convertor that's been mentioned on the list before (or several other "homebrew" type projects that are floating around). A bit of simple hardware that anyone with a few skills can quickly build - but there's potential for offering a ready-built board too if there's a low-volume market for it. But yes, it's more for the hardware people among us, not those who enjoy playing with software or machines in as-is configuration. As for not being done, I suspect it's because nobody's given it serious thought and assumed it to be more complicated than it is. We're all guilty of being sloppy about archival - I suspect a good 80% of collectors aren't in the hobby for the preservation aspect, they just want to play around with the machines. A project such as this is for the other 20% who want to preserve the hardware and software and keep it going for as long as possible. > [quick snip of things I agree with] > Reading through a lot of the postings on this thread makes me think of > somebody complaining that "linux is too big, bloated, and complicated, > and redhat charges for their version too. let's write our own version > that will be lean and mean and available to all for free." Yes. Except that it's a billion times more simple than taking on writing an OS :-) > Thinking about the design is fun and the one who actually does it will > have some rewards implementing it, but for most people, the already available > solution will be superior to the proposed design even if it is ever > done. Agreed on the design front. It'd be nice to build something and see the data being spat out at the other end; kind of like proof of concept code at the start of a software project. As for 'most people' I have no idea. I'm not sure how many catweasels have been sold and to what sort of people. But I think the catweasel and this cater for different markets anyway, so it's maybe unfair to compare the two. The only reason I've brought the catweasel into this is because I wanted something for the museum to archive all our media - and with a bit of work a MK4 could probably do the job. But that doesn't mean to say I'm not going to look into alternatives too. > Spending $60 more for a finished, professionally done board might > be a showstopper for some people, but futzing with the building your own > will preclude a great many more. More than likely :) That doesn't stop it from being a worthwhile project with its own benefits, though. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 09:13:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:13:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503151829.KAA24775@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way. > Still, I believe that development work should be done in > an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is > just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind > what the final product will be like. In other words, don't > lock the design into one specific format. > The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers > for each machine it is connected to. These have to be > specific to the USB device we use to interface with. > RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from > text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine. I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet. I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers that are over 30 years old. As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I agree. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 15 17:10:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:10:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and > the CPU. In the 1620, the memory is a separate cabinet, connected by > cables to the CPU cabinet. A wise designer would run parity on that > interconnect. That's still true: high end "system on a chip" designs > have ECC memory AND parity (at least) on the buses -- even if they > only run inside the chip. Most IBMs do quite a lot of checking on just about every datapath. I think this all started with the S/360. Many even have duplicate ALUs for checking. > Oh, and of course processors don't ever figure memory parity in > software, only in hardware, so "waste of CPU" can't apply. > > As for sign bit per digit, in the 1620 the "sign" bit serves two > purposes -- on the least significant digit it's the sign of the > number, on the most significant digit it's the "this is the last > digit" marker. But the original argument was that sixbit is great for numeric data. It is not, no matter how you look at it. How the 1620 popped up is still a little odd. Later IBM though dispose of the sign/marker bit - variable length words (BCD or character) were treated with a start address and a stop address (or a length). One has to be careful or a large addition could overwrite itself. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 15 17:13:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:13:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <42367EF6.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I never said a word about 6 bits ... I grumble about 11111111 base 0 bits. > There is a lot of good reasions why we have 8 bits mostly because 4 bits > work > nice for MSI like alu's and shift registers. I would think the other way around. MSI is mostly 4 bit multiples because the 8 bit byte is popular. 3 (or sometimes 5) bit devices are only used when there is no other choice. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Tue Mar 15 16:20:37 2005 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:20:37 -0700 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <42375FB5.2060203@mcdermith.net> Paxton Hoag wrote: >> When this survey started I really enjoyed the list of early computers >> used that people added. >> It would be both on topic and fun to continue. Good point... Already gave my age... Started in high school on an HP2000C timesharing system, followed by CDC 6400s at Kaman Sciences through the school district. In college CDC6600/6400, HP 2100 (RTE/2000E), PDP11/23 (Paper Tape) and PDP11/40 (Unix) machines, along with a lot of custom built microprocessor stuff. For a summer job worked on a Honeywell (formerly GE) 6000 system at Norad doing testing for the satellite tracking system... In "The Real World" PDP 11/70 (RSTS/E), HP 3000s, HP 1000s, IBM 360s, HP 9826/9836/300s, etc. etc. Then PCs came along -- well, became popular anyway... Bill McDermith There, _now_ it's on-topic -- sort of a history of computing kind of thing... From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Mar 15 17:15:56 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:15:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes... In-Reply-To: <013901c52a17$451efbc0$d926083d@river> Message-ID: > Yes, the 8080/8085/8086 series chips did parity checking. The PSW had a flag > for odd/even parity. Naturally, the Z80, being a superset of the 8080, also had this > ability. I assume that the later generations of x86 series chips, for backward compatability, > also had the ability to check for parity. > > The TMS9900 series also did parity checking. Did anyone really use these features much? It sort of sounds like a waste of gates, since most serial I/O parity is done by the UART. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Mar 15 17:19:16 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:19:16 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: References: <4236DEF2.2070109@splab.cas.neu.edu> <200503151737.j2FHbrCr010131@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050315181514.033a8700@pop-server> >For me the first I used was an IBM 1130 in 1974 or 5. The first computers that I used was when I started with IBM in 1964. 1. 1401 2. 7030 (Stretch) >The first I bought was a VIC 20 >I already posted my age for the survey. 70 next month ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Mar 15 17:21:11 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:21:11 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSX tape backup problem In-Reply-To: <16950.63557.708067.83896@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42364AC5.2050402@splab.cas.neu.edu> <16950.63557.708067.83896@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42376DE7.2090306@splab.cas.neu.edu> Yes, Paul, it has the 240 opcode in the right place. And I remember the MSDP tapes being bootable. But I have no way of making a copy of it, unless I mounted it wrong. EXCHANGE didn't recognize it as DOS-11, but I'll try again. If that works, then I should be able to read it in and write it back out to another tape. (and make a copy on the hard drive) Thanks for the insight. The problem with the BCK files is that they come in as 2064 byte blocks from the tape and VMS gets really upset when I try to write them to the disk. Haven't figured out how to deblock them enough to get them on to the system. The interesting part is that I would have expected them to be 2048 (512*4) but there is either a 16 byte header on each block, or each 512 byte record has 4 bytes (Integer) in the front for recordsize (something RMS would have stuck on there). And finally, yes, the first step for the (6) 800 BPI tapes is to ditto them to other tapes at 1600 BPI. Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >Could you read them as straight streams of blocks, and produce a .TAP >file from that, which you can then feed to RSX running in an emulator? >Or write the data back out to another tape at a density that your RSX >system supports? > >That's a DOS format tape -- the 14 byte record is the file label. If >it's bootable, then the next block is the boot program. You could >read it and see if it looks like PDP11 code. A boot block would >typically have either reset (5) or NOP (0240) in the first word. > > paul > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 15 17:17:00 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:17:00 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <37154.64.139.41.130.1110925454.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <42365173.1060306@jetnet.ab.ca> <37154.64.139.41.130.1110925454.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42376CEC.70007@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > >Why would you want to spend $100 plus $10/part for Atmel stuff, when you >can the software for Xilinx CPLDs for free, build your own cable for >under $10, and buy the chips for $1 to $3? > > > I did not want to make a cable up. In my case I was going for a product proven to work, rather than fiddle with a cable and other stuff. >Xilinx has a CPLD design kit for $50 that includes a board with two >CPLDs, a JTAG programming cable, and the software and documentation >on CD. > > I downloaded Amtel software first and kept it as I only have a 28k modem. Prelimary design work showed I'd need over 64 macrocells with 5 volt logic!. After I got the board it has a Zif style PLCC socket for easy insertion/removal a nice feature.Amtel 128 cell $13.00 xlinux 108 cell $17.00 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 15 17:10:55 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:10:55 GMT Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: David Betz "RQDX3 on an 11/23?" (Mar 15, 13:31) References: Message-ID: <10503152310.ZM12388@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 15 2005, 13:31, David Betz wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23 and would like to add a hard disk. Would the RQDX3 > be the way to go? What do I need besides the board itself and an MFM > drive? Obviously, I need some sort of cable to connect the two. Is > there anything else I need? Will RT-11 V5 support an MFM drive on an > RQDX3? A SCSI controller might be better, insofar as SCSI drives are easier to find. Unfortunately they tend to be expensive, and you need to be aware that some only support tapes, not disks. An RQDX3 should be fine if you can find a suitable drive. It needn't be a genuine DEC drive, as the formatter for the RQDX3 can be told what the drive parameters are. They're a pain to work out from scratch (I've done it) but the formatter contains tables for several standard drives, including one or two standard Seagate drives, and if you don't mind using less than 100% of the theoretical capacity, there's usually at least one table entry that will do. Avoid RQDX1 and RQDX2 boards, unless they're free, as they have a number of limitations. For example, RQDX1 doesn't pass grant signals, so it has to be the last device on the bus. RQDX1/2 are fussy about the drives; they have internal tables of drive parameters and play tricks to see what's connected. They're slower, too. You want to make sure you get the latest (or next-to-latest) RQDX3 firmware ROMs (not hard, and most have them anyway) and you'll need a bootable copy of XXDP and the formatter program (ZRQCxx). You also need either a signal distribution board, which splits out the signals from the 50-way connector on the RQDXn to the usual 34+20 ribbon connectors, and has provision for the front-panel buttons (which control online/offline and write-protect). I made my own (two versions), or you could just make up a fancy cable. You want the button panel, or a homemade substitute (you can get away with some jumpers and a pullup resistor or two, if necessary). Once formatted, for which you need XXDP and ZRQCxx, or a MicroVAX with its diagnostics, RT-11 V.5.x will recognise an RQDX controller and drive, but it needs to be V.5.03 or higher for an RQDX3 (earlier version of V5 have a bug that causes it to fail to initialise RQDX3 controllers properly -- though I wrote a patch if you need it). If you get an RQDX3, it can also control one or two RX33 floppies, which are rebadged TEAC FD-55-GFR 5.25" floppy drives. Layouts for my signal distribution board are on my website, along with a document listing the RQDX3 pinouts, and a bunch of ROM images: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.pdf http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ROMlist http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 17:28:48 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes... In-Reply-To: <013901c52a17$451efbc0$d926083d@river> References: <013901c52a17$451efbc0$d926083d@river> Message-ID: <45289.64.139.41.130.1110929328.squirrel@64.139.41.130> river wrote: > Yes, the 8080/8085/8086 series chips did parity checking. The PSW had a > flag for odd/even parity. Naturally, the Z80, being a superset of the 8080, > also had this ability. In that regard, the Z80 is not a proper superset of the 8080. The parity flag is usurped to act as an overflow flag after arithmetic operations. It is still partity after moves and logical operations. Eric From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 15 17:30:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:30:03 -0600 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller References: Message-ID: <001f01c529b6$edef5940$ac3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM > On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way. >> Still, I believe that development work should be done in >> an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is >> just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind >> what the final product will be like. In other words, don't >> lock the design into one specific format. >> The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers >> for each machine it is connected to. These have to be >> specific to the USB device we use to interface with. >> RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from >> text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine. > > I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in > consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development > products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system > devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet. > > I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is > computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and > allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers > that are over 30 years old. > > As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I > agree. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I keep forgetting, what is the most recommended way to hook up a dial up modem to Linux ;-) I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely required there are USB to serial adapters. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 15 17:40:52 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:40:52 -0700 Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42377284.3040700@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >Did anyone really use these features much? It sort of sounds like a waste >of gates, since most serial I/O parity is done by the UART. > > What about say a simple mag tape interface or bit bang type serial ports. 110 baud is so slow bit bang I/O works well. Ben alias Woodelf From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 17:47:05 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: References: <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <48032.64.139.41.130.1110930425.squirrel@64.139.41.130> William wrote: > Most IBMs do quite a lot of checking on just about every datapath. I think > this all started with the S/360. Many even have duplicate ALUs for > checking. That originated with the IBM 7030 Data Processing System (Stretch), introduced in 1961. It was also the first system to use ECC memory. Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 15 17:57:06 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: HHC Basic Status Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315155456.00b137a0@mail.30below.com> Been kinda busy (especially at home - which is where all the fun stuff is supposed to happen...) However, on Sunday, I did get enough of a chance to dead-bug connect 2 24-pin wirewrap sockets together, and wirewrap the legs - this made a hackish but working adapter for the HHC Roms. I read several different Roms into the PC, verified 'em, looked at .bin files and I can say that everything that looked like it should be text looked like text. The Basic ROM just came in today - and despite the lack of anti-stat looks to be in fair shape. It also looks like the seller put 2 dabs of epoxy on the chip so it couldn't be removed from the carrier and copied. (I say that because I could still smell the epoxy - Everything that I've ever epoxied stopped smelling after 2-3 weeks; a month at most.) Of course, my adapter doesn't give a whit about that... ;-) I'm looking to snipe an EPROM eraser on ePay tonite about 10pm EST... If I don't get that one tonite, I'm just gonna buy one so I'll be able to burn new EPROMs very soon. If anyone just wants the code and can make their own EPROMs, I'll have that available soon; prolly tonite. ;-) I'll keep in touch, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 15 18:04:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:04:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes... Message-ID: <200503160004.QAA24846@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >river wrote: >> Yes, the 8080/8085/8086 series chips did parity checking. The PSW had a >> flag for odd/even parity. Naturally, the Z80, being a superset of the 8080, >> also had this ability. > >In that regard, the Z80 is not a proper superset of the 8080. The >parity flag is usurped to act as an overflow flag after arithmetic >operations. It is still partity after moves and logical operations. > >Eric > > Hi Giving it some thought, the only compute application for parity that I can think of would be reverse bit swapping. This is generally done on an address though and might not be all that useful on a byte value. ( FFT's often need this function ). Dwight From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 15 18:08:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:08:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data General Nova 4/x -- update on Kermit Message-ID: <20050315152140.X1589@localhost> Well with Bruce's help (and a bit of actually paying attention to what I was doing) I got Kermit to compile -- properly -- on RDOS. Kermit for RDOS consists of about 20+ smaller source files, separately compiled, and linked with the linking loader. THe source is D.G. FORTRAN5, and the output of a seemingly-lost RATFOR preprocessor. Kermit was archived as one big file containing all of the sources, with comments to indicate where to break them into files: CCCCCCCCCCCCC STDIO.FT CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC C code here.... ... Bruce game me an awk script that does it, but since I don't have any way to get files in/out to RDOS (except open-loop "text download" through the console) I did it locally with an nspeed command, looks like teco: 1WMGRKERMIT.FR$GC$$ $ is escape key, ^T is Control-T, etc. < ... > is a loop; the semicolon is a conditional exit (if the search fails). N is "yank pages, copying to the output file, buffer-fulls of text until 'CCCCCCCCCCCCC ^T' is found". ^t means any number of space characters. The transmission line noise is really copying the current line, under the virtual cursor, to buffer 1, stripping the comments off the embedded filename and building a command to create anoutput file... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 15 16:59:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:59:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 14, 5 04:50:46 pm Message-ID: > These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you > can download from the Xilinx web site, and a simple parallel port > cable you can build yourself easily. The software may be 'free', but the machine to run it on, and the OS to run it under, most certainly aren't. And I do have an objection to trusting my design to a piece of binary-only software that I have no easy way of checking if it's doing the right thing (it's very difficult to be sure a CPLD or FPGA is doing the right thing under _all_ conditions). I would mind if they'd properly document the chips so I could write my one CAD software if I wanted to. But they don't. AFAIK there is no 100% documented CPLD or FPGA available (100% documented meaning you can go from design to chip without proprietary software or a proprietary programmer). Having hand-wired TTL running at over 50MHz and ECL at at least twice that, I'll stick to ways I can debug and that I know work. I've got enough TTL to last me for quite a time... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 15 17:36:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:36:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 15, 5 02:26:10 pm Message-ID: > > Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. > > I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the You cna crimp these connectors (presumably 34 pin header socket or edge connector and 50 pin edge connector) in a bench vice. And how anyone can do serious hardware hacking without a vice is beyond me (s/vice/vise/ across the Pond, I believe). > line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? Should work fine. I've passed floppy drive signals through an old, random-wired printer switchbox without problems (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 15 17:15:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:15:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9845 PSU (was HP Integral) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050314215658.00a59e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 14, 5 09:56:58 pm Message-ID: > >> a couple of them. I got lucky with my first one. The wires on the large > >> heavy inductor had sheared off at the PCB board so it wasn't hard to fix. > > > >Do you mean the black plastic block that's bolted to the metalwork that > >also holds the transformer for startup? That's part of the mains input > >filter, of course. Or one of the 2 main chopper transformers? Or one of > >the inductors on the output PCBs? > > I don't remeber which it was but it was an inductor and not a > transformer. The thing was working before it was shipped and broken when it There are a lot of small-ish inductors on the output PCBs, of course, but those would have been rattling around in the case if they'd come off the PCB. For those who've not seen this PSU, it's on 5 PCBs. At the top is a large board containing the mains input rectifiers and smoothing caps, the rectifiers for the (linear) startup supply, the 2 main chopper transformers, the current sense transformers, and not a lot else. Mains input comes into this board via a 4 way AMP connector, which mates with one strapped to the side of the PSU casing. Plugged into that are 2 output PCBs, one for the logic supplies, one for the mechanical supplies. These contain the smoothing caps, inductors, the chopper driver trnasistors, the crowbar (which operates on the printhead supply only, for some odd reason). These also plug into the main backplane in the base of the machine, and are the connection between the PSU and the reat of the machine. There's a chopper PCB that pluges into the top board and one of the output boards. It contains the 4 main chopper transistors (2 push-pull choppers), the fast-turn-off circuits, the pulse transformers to couple the drive to the choppers (all the control circuitry is on the output side of the isolation barrier). And there's the control PCB. 5 chopper control ICs (for the main choppers and the 3 switching regulators), the chopper ICs (PIC6xx series) for the output switching regulators, 3 quad comparators (protection circuit), 2 quad op-amps (assorted current sense and reference buffering functions), 2 TTL monostables (power-on Init/ signal), 2 3-terminal linear regulators (startup supplies), etc. As I said, complicated. I still want to know what the 'discharge tool' mentioned on the PSU case consists of. The instructions are to disconnect the mains, wait 5 minutes, insert the discharge tool into a pair of holes and then into a second pair of holes (these holes line up with pads on the top PCB connected to the termianls of the mains smoothing caps), then check they've discharged to < 25V. All I can add is that there's a fad 22k bleeder resistor across each of said capacitors, so I can't see any need for anything else... [Back to the Integral] > I susepct thrre was a service ROM cartridge that fits in > >place of the HPUX ROM too. > > There is. I have one. :-) Right. Does it do anything useful (in other words, can you find faults with it that you can't easilty find witnout it, but with a logic analyser?) > >No problem. My view is that if I post something to classiccmp, it's been > >made public (after all classiccmp is archived publically, I think). I > >therefore have no problem with my postings being made public in other > >ways. However, I do expect an acknowledgement somewhere on the web page > >or file... > > Not a problem. I'd already planned on that. I don't know if you want I didn't expect it to be a problem (and BTW, this applies to anyone on classiccmp who wants to quote something I've posted) > you e-mail address included or not or you want it included but made > unreadable to the SPAMbots. Let me know what you prefer. Well, I've posted my e-mail address un-mangled to a lot of places, so I don't think one more will make much difference... I don't really care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 15 17:20:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:20:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Mar 14, 5 10:22:16 pm Message-ID: > > > Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 bit > > sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity > > Very inefficient. I hope you are not serious. I don;t know much about IBM stuff, but I do know that the HP9100 calculator had 6-bit memory locations (this is obvious from the schematics of the memory data board, from the fact that the main CPU register (register '2', for some odd reason) is 6 bits wide, etc. These were used in 2 ways. Either to store a user keycode (there were 64 keys [1]), or to store a BCD digit. I seem ro rememebr in the latter case, the 2 extra bits were a sign bit and a blanking flag. [1] yes, I know the 9100B has 65 keys. 2 of them are wired electrically in parallel and send the same code. One is 'hyper', the other is one of the memory transfer functions. If that keyvcode is followed by a trig function, it's taken as 'hyper'., if it's followed by an address, it's the memroy function. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 15 17:52:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:52:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <37154.64.139.41.130.1110925454.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 15, 5 02:24:14 pm Message-ID: > Anybody that can't find $25 worth of stuff they want to buy from Digikey > isn't very serious about hardware hacking. The problem isn't finding $25 of stuff that I can use, it's finding another $25 when I've found I've forgotten to buy a 74LS00 or something like that.... Sure I can use the extra stuff I have to order later, but... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 18:16:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:16:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: <10503152310.ZM12388@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10503152310.ZM12388@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <51599.64.139.41.130.1110932162.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Peter wrote: > RT-11 V.5.x will recognise an RQDX controller and > drive, but it needs to be V.5.03 or higher for an RQDX3 (earlier > version of V5 have a bug that causes it to fail to initialise RQDX3 > controllers properly -- though I wrote a patch if you need it). Does the bug affect any other MSCP controllers? I'd be interested in looking at the patch to see what the RQDX3 does differently than other MSCP controllers. Eric From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 15 18:22:02 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:22:02 -0500 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <200503152338.j2FNchPt019837@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503160022.j2G0M2HI008208@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I have quite a bit of experience with these (and, by the way, I'm looking for one or two ....). The Persci drives for the most part are single full-size drives that accept two different media in the same drive. They are not quite the same thing as "dual drives" because there is only one head positioner for both drives. However, it's a huge voice coil and it's very fast (1 millisecond per track). The drives have a horrendous number of very, very different configuration achieved by about 4 dozen jumpers. There are several dozen "standard" configurations, and many of them are quite non-interchangeable. The interface is a standard 8" floppy interface (50-pin connector), and they can be used with most controllers ***IF*** they are properly jumpered/configured. However, some of their quirks are very, very unique. One is the single positioner, moving the head of the "A:" drive also moves the head of the "B:" drive, and vice-versa. This requires a different BIOS for Persci drives vs. a more conventional configuration of two separate drives. Another thing is seek timing. The seek speed is very, very fast, and the servo system is capable of dynamic acceleration and deceleration. To use this, which is all but mandatory, instead of sending step pulses at, say, 6 nSec. per pulse (track), the step pulses are sent at a VERY high rate, over 100,000 pulses per second. The drive buffers them, and dynamically accelerates the head to max speed for the seek, and dynamically decelerates it at the end of the seek. There is a new interface signal "seek complete" to tell you when the head has arrived at the desired track. This is totally different than a normal stepper motor drive, and requires both some minor hardware changes (which are supported by almost all LSI-based S-100 controllers, e.g. Western Digital) and some software changes. It's not difficult and it works well, BUT it means that a BIOS for a conventional stepper motor drive and a Persci drive are two separate BIOS'. These drives are a wonder to behold, the main board is huge (something like 200 square inches) and beautiful. But they are almost unserviceable, since parts are not available and they used some very unique components, and also they are quite fragile (there is a special insert required for shipment, and they are unlikely to survive shipment without that insert). I personally scanned all of the Persci service data on the 270/277 drives and they are up on Howard's site for download, so at least documentation is available. If you have any questions, I'll try to help, but if they are "dead" or grossly non-functional, the chances of resurrecting them are slim. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 18:26:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:26:40 -0600 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42377D40.2000200@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >> I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way. >>Still, I believe that development work should be done in >>an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is >>just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind >>what the final product will be like. In other words, don't >>lock the design into one specific format. >> The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers >>for each machine it is connected to. These have to be >>specific to the USB device we use to interface with. >>RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from >>text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine. > > > I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in > consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development > products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system > devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet. > > I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is > computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and > allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers > that are over 30 years old. For purposes of connecting old storage to new computers, Barry's point stands. The discussion here doesn't really include development hardware, low-level controllers or embedded systems. If I were going to design hardware for a "next-gen compaticard", it would not be on a serial port. I won't argue that serial is underrated, and it's true that it's not disappearing, but a rising percentage of commodity desktop systems come with no serial interface. It's the usual story that numbers, not quality, define success. USB is going to be "it" for a good long while. > As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I > agree. Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, we might consider ethernet. Even more universal than USB, doesn't exclude older systems, and only comes in three common connectors (that I can think of. A lot of the appliance-oriented microcontrollers and CPUs now have builtin ethernet, right? With microcoded TCP stacks and even DHCP clients. Plug your 8" floppy drives into your *network*.... I think that while the hardware costs would be higher, the development issues would be greatly reduced. Doc From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Mar 15 18:27:57 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:27:57 -0800 Subject: VT-100 terminal wanted Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050315161244.02277298@popmail.ucsd.edu> Ashley Carder wrote: > Anyone out there have a working VT-100 terminal > and keyboard they'd be interested in selling? I > need to get one to replace one that I'm giving > away with a system. Funny -- I was about to post the same "Wanted" message last week. Let me jump in line here behind Ashley for anyone out there with a working VT-100 terminal they feel like parting with (for $'s, or for trade). Contact me off-list. Eric F. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 15 18:30:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:30:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 14, 5 04:50:46 pm Message-ID: <53737.64.139.41.130.1110933039.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > These are easily programmed using zero-cost development software you > can download from the Xilinx web site, and a simple parallel port > cable you can build yourself easily. Tony wrote: > The software may be 'free', I specifically didn't use that word because it definitely is not "Free Software". > but the machine to run it on, and the OS to > run it under, most certainly aren't. I didn't pay any money for the Linux OS I run it on. And it will run (perhaps slowly) on cast-off Pentium machines that people simply throw away. When DECUS gives you a "free" C compiler for the PDP-11, do you complain about having to pay for the PDP-11 computer and the RT11 operating system? > And I do have an objection to > trusting my design to a piece of binary-only software that I have no easy > way of checking if it's doing the right thing The Xilinx FPGA Editor lets you see *exactly* how the resulting logic is wired in the device. However, unfortunately the FPGA Editor is not included in the no-charge dowloadable software; it's only in the paid version, which costs US$500 and up. > (it's very difficult to be > sure a CPLD or FPGA is doing the right thing under _all_ conditions). It's difficult to tell whether any collection of thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of gates are doing the right thing under all conditions, regardless of whether they're in an FPGA, or a bunch of 7400 NAND gates you've wire-wrapped. In fact, it's essentially impossible. > I would mind if they'd properly document the chips so I could write my > one CAD software if I wanted to. But they don't. AFAIK there is no 100% > documented CPLD or FPGA available (100% documented meaning you can go > from design to chip without proprietary software or a proprietary > programmer). There are plenty of completely documented CPLDs, and no completely documented FPGAs. Xilinx did completely document one FPGA family (XC5200? XC6200? I've forgotten). It didn't sell well, so they discontinued it. However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your own software working for one family, that family would have long since been discontinued. Eric From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 15 18:34:25 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <200503152338.j2FNchPt019837@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503160034.j2G0YQXW018997@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Ironically, the DVD-R media that I've had the best luck with -- and my experience with this brand has been superb, no failures, perfect burns, and perfect subsequent readability -- is a bargain private-label off-brand. It's "K-Hypermedia" brand, sold by OfficeMax (and, very rarely, by other retailers). I've gone through over 10 25-packs over a period of 2 years, 1x (which burn well at 2x on Pioneer burners) and 4X, and my experience with these has been wonderful. And they are cheap, sometimes on sale for as little as $5 for a 25-pack (more commonly $10 for a 25-pack). On my Pioneer A04 burner, I could burn the 1X media at 2x by default. On my A08, I had to get "hacked" firmware to allow me to select any burn speed with any media. But in both cases, 2x works fine for the nominally 1X media. I'm now also using 4X media with equally good results. [They have a DVD+R product as well, I have used one spindle of it, it was fine, but my experience suggests that when given a choice, "-" is the format to prefer. Cheaper, more available and more likely to be readable, not withstanding that the "propaganda" says just the opposite.] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 18:38:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:38:28 -0600 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <001f01c529b6$edef5940$ac3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <001f01c529b6$edef5940$ac3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <42378004.7000608@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:13 AM > >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >>> I tend to agree with you. We should be thinking this way. >>> Still, I believe that development work should be done in >>> an environment that is handy and convenient. The USB is >>> just a machine interconnect. One just has to keep in mind >>> what the final product will be like. In other words, don't >>> lock the design into one specific format. >>> The only issue I have with USB is that it requires drivers >>> for each machine it is connected to. These have to be >>> specific to the USB device we use to interface with. >>> RS-232 is generic enough that we could run things from >>> text files using simple terminal modes on almost any machine. >> >> >> I dispute Barry's assertion that serial is going away. Perhaps in >> consumer products it will be supplanted by USB. But in development >> products and applications, and low level controller and embedded system >> devices, it'll be around for quite a while yet. >> >> I'd argue that the serial port is the most under-rated device is >> computing. It is the most widely deployed communcations protocol and >> allows computers 1 month old to connect and transfer data to computers >> that are over 30 years old. >> >> As for Dwight's main argument that the interface is not the main focus, I >> agree. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> Festival >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> mputers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > I keep forgetting, what is the most recommended way to hook up a dial up > modem to Linux ;-) > > I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is > absolutely required there are USB to serial adapters. I have 2 PCs and 4 Macs without serial ports. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:46:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <423744E2.9010702@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > From: "Doc Shipley" > >> > >> Looks like a standard 50-pin edge connector, yes. After reading a > >> little in the owner's manual, it's MFM, dual density, so worst case I > >> should be able to run it on an older PC-based FDC, right? > > > > > > The 277 is a fast repeat fast single sided floppy drive. > > > > The high-speed seek can be ignored but what can not be ignored is the > > track location. Being a dual drive both heads move at the same time, > > this can confuse some software. > > > > Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. > > I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the > line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? The IDC connectors are forgiving with even crap tools. Just use a vise, some vice grips, or if you are lazy like me and don't want to fetch the proper tools, a blunt object with which you can hammer on the cap works. I start from each end until they are punched down, then finish the job by working from the middle outwards until the top of the connector is attached nice and firmly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:49:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:49:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF East 3.0 ? In-Reply-To: <42374619.7060809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > No time like now to start preparing... > > So what is the status of VCF East this year? Approx date/month? Are > we gonna have it at Sun again? It was nice having it there, but the > logistics of security, sign-in and getting equipment in were rather rough. Not sure. I made initial forrays into finding a location but nothing concrete so far. Sun is a no-go. Had an interest from the folks at the Boston Museum of Science but they flaked. Haven't given it much thought since. For the time being I'm focusing now on a VCF Midwest and trying to finish some time critical projects that are taking up all my time. When I do start thinking about it again, it will be whether or not I'm going to actually hold it this year since I have some other plans that take priority. Sorry to have to say that, but I just don't want to let anyone down. There's still the possibility to organize it from afar if I can get a local host, but there would only be a 50/50 chance I would actually attend myself. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:51:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4237547D.3050204@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > From: "Doc Shipley" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:26 PM > > > >> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> > >>> From: "Doc Shipley" > >>> > > No problem with soldering, for crimping IDC connectors: before I got a > > crimper I used vises, for a vise with metal jaws I put in blocks of wood > > for cushioning. > > If I can find the IDC connectors, I may try that first. Definitely get the IDC connectors, even if you have to mail order them. Soldering 50 conductor ribbon cable is not my idea of fun. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From yannetti at yannetti.com Tue Mar 15 18:53:59 2005 From: yannetti at yannetti.com (Bob Yannetti) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:53:59 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 61 References: <200503151830.j2FISJai013095@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001001c529c2$a6dd4380$5d02a8c0@Gateway> Hi Fred; Glad you signed on. I have been waiting for someone older than myself to speak up. Just didn't want to be the oldest. Born 1930 and I will be 75 in April. Started playing around with an Atwater Kent radio around 1939, went to a Radio Mech. course at a Vocational School , 1944 to 45. Left school and joined the Army where I served 5+ years as a brass pounder and comm. chief. Two years of which were at the Signal Corps Evans Lab. After the service went to work for the Navy, mostly on Shipboard radar and taught in their apprentice program ( Math and Physics ) Moved to the FAA when they opened their Research Center at Pomona, N.J. in 1960. Worked mostly on Radars and Auto Landing Systems. All Analog stuff. Was assigned to the ATC Labs in early 1970 and it didn't take long to realize I was in a "Mushroom Farm" so I went back to school for a degree in Information Science. That is when I got into computers. I remember the 1401, 7090, sigma 7 and the IBM 360's ( we called them 9020's ). the ATC program was being developed in JOVIAL. My language however was FORTRAM. Retired in 1981. Fred if you look hard enough you will find a few of us are still here. Bob Yannetti, age 74 going on 75 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 10:59:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:59:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Qumetrak 242 drive In-Reply-To: <39635.64.139.41.130.1110926438.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > If you want to read single density, a PC with a single-density-capable > floppy disk controller. Many aren't, and the only sure way to tell > is to try it. Speaking of which, what's a good test to try if you don't have a known FM encoded disk? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Mar 15 19:02:26 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:02:26 -0600 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423785A2.4050206@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Details on making a 34 to 50 pin cable can be found on my website. >> >> I've looked at that, but I don't have access to crimpers. Would the > > > You cna crimp these connectors (presumably 34 pin header socket or edge > connector and 50 pin edge connector) in a bench vice. And how anyone can > do serious hardware hacking without a vice is beyond me (s/vice/vise/ > across the Pond, I believe). I do have a vise (and several vices, too...) If I can find an IDC connector, I'll try that. Unfortunately, it's likely to be easier and cheaper to find an old SCSI cable with card-edge connector than a new component. >>line noise from a soldered strip-&-splice be excessive? > > > Should work fine. I've passed floppy drive signals through an old, > random-wired printer switchbox without problems (!). This is good. Doc From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 15 19:14:41 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data General Nova 4/x -- update on Kermit In-Reply-To: <20050315152140.X1589@localhost> References: <20050315152140.X1589@localhost> Message-ID: <20050315171001.R1589@localhost> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: oops! notes > CCCCCCCCCCCCC STDIO.FT CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC > C code here.... > ... (C in column 0 being a COMMENT in FORTRAN, not "C" language) > 1WMGRKERMIT.FR$GC$$ The above is from an xterm cut'n'paste during an edit session; the command contains errors. Here's the correct command: 1WMGRKERMIT.FR$GC$$ The (^) is how the editor shows where the cursor is, when you ask with the T command. The !I crap was where needed to add ;>GC... to the command. And in fact, the ; test is misplaced; it should follow the escape ($) that immediately follows the N...$ command. The script actually errored out after the last file was written; but since the job was done I didn't care at that point. For posterity, and some DG person will point it out... :-) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 11:40:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:40:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42377D40.2000200@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > For purposes of connecting old storage to new computers, Barry's > point stands. The discussion here doesn't really include development > hardware, low-level controllers or embedded systems. If I were going to > design hardware for a "next-gen compaticard", it would not be on a > serial port. I suppose it depends what hardware you're working with. Most of the systems that I use to dump data are old 486 or Pentium PCs. Even 386 and 286 machines are useful. And these are machines that will be around in droves for years to come. I can also stick an ethernet card in them with TCP/IP drivers and attach to my Windows XP server. My older PCs don't have USB, and even if I could plug in a USB PCI adapater (most of them also don't have PCI slots) I wouldn't have the drivers. At any rate, I don't think the point was pitting USB against serial but had more to do with not focusing on what tie you should wear when you're going to dig a hole. > I won't argue that serial is underrated Well, for our purposes, it's far more "universal" than USB. > Just to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, we might consider > ethernet. Even more universal than USB, doesn't exclude older systems, > and only comes in three common connectors (that I can think of. A lot Guess what? Serial includes even more systems and a serial connector can be wired up for any connection without much trouble, usually with just two wires. > of the appliance-oriented microcontrollers and CPUs now have builtin > ethernet, right? With microcoded TCP stacks and even DHCP clients. > Plug your 8" floppy drives into your *network*.... Have fun programming the drivers for that. At any rate, as long as we have USB to serial converters then that at least guarantees that people investing in contemporary hardware will still be able to connect to their vintage computers. And one other point that Dwight made that can't be ignored is that USB does require specific drivers for the device on the other end, as opposed to serial which is a just a simple, dumb data connection. Why does everything have to be "smart" anyway? I'll continue to prefer straight serial for some time to come. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ikvsabre at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 19:40:15 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:40:15 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <030420051850.9305.4228AE10000E72670000245922069997350603970A04040108@comcast.net> References: <030420051850.9305.4228AE10000E72670000245922069997350603970A04040108@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200503152040150390.25748C46@smtp.comcast.net> I know this is kind of an old discussion, but what is the big deal about \ vs. / ? Joe On 3/4/2005 at 6:50 PM swtpc6800 at comcast.net wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> All I want to know is who decided to use \ instead of / for >> directory separators (warming up the tar and holding feathers). > >I use Windows and Solaris. The driectory separator drives me batty. > >One thing that DOS got right is to retain the file date when >a file is copied to another directory. >------------------------------- >Michael Holley >www.swtpc.com >------------------------------- *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From ikvsabre at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 19:40:15 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:40:15 -0500 Subject: Who invented DOS? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050304195156.049b31c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200503152040150984.25748E97@smtp.comcast.net> Too bad Al Gore never said he invented the internet, although it is constantly attributed to him. He DID state that he was instrumental in legislation that led to DARPAnet becoming what we know today as the internet, which is factually true. Joe On 3/4/2005 at 7:52 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >I thought it was Gore... or was that the internet??? *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Mar 15 20:00:32 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:00:32 -0600 Subject: Advin Systems PAL/EPROM programmer Sailor-PAL Message-ID: <42379340.8090700@pacbell.net> I picked up an older pal/eprom programmed from Advin systems at Weirdstuff warehouse when I was in Sunnyvale recently, $5. I knew I was talking a risk, but for $5, who cares? This unit is labeled "SAILOR-PAL". Anyway, Advin is still around, and their web site has manuals and software for their programmers -- anything since 1996 or so. This unit is from 1986. Does anybody on this list happen to have documents or software for this programmer and is willing to share? I contacted Advin and their terse reply was: this system is no longer supported. Searching on google turned up a few references to this programmer but nothing useful. My main interest is as an EPROM reader, so even if it isn't perfectly calibrated, it should be fine for the purpose. If I can't come up with the software, I guess I'll do what I have done before: used a BASIC Stamp to drive the address pins and read the data pins. The programmer would just be more convenient is all. Thanks. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue Mar 15 20:04:55 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:04:55 EST Subject: Media Longitevity/Care Message-ID: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> Coming in on this a little bit late, but if you haven't checked out the Library of Congress you should. www.loc.gov/preserv gives you a basic run down of ways to care for archived materials, and the NIST/CLIR puts out Special Publication 500-252 "Care and Handling of CDs and DVDs - A Guide for Librarians and Archivists" (e-version available). Other tips- gold disks, AZO dye are reputed to last longer. The phenomenon of failure from the outside in has interesting possibilities- have software write a known pattern in the outermost section of the disc and pop up a warning when it starts to deteriorate. Hopefully this would give enough time to move data to another disk. - Scott Quinn From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 15 20:12:12 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:12:12 -0600 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:04:27 +0100 . Message-ID: <20050316021259.DEAN5558.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message , =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn? = writes: >Hm - yes, I remember he got sidetracked by typesetting problems. >It took a very long time before it hit the bookstores. I think we were >writing MIX-simulators based on mimeographed excerpts, I did not get the >book until long after I left university. Was it a translation issue? Volume 1 was originally published in 1968. The trigger for developing TeX was the galleys for the second edition of Volume 2. His reaction was that if his books were going to look like that, it was time to stop writing! Fortunately for us, there's probably no one better at mastering the history of a technology, distilling it to its essence and building a new application on it. The set of Vols 1-3 I got for high school graduation in '80 is all done pre-TeX even though Knuth had an early version running in '78. Brian L. Stuart From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 15 20:26:25 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:26:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <001f01c529b6$edef5940$ac3dd7d1@randylaptop> from "Randy McLaughlin" at Mar 15, 2005 05:30:03 PM Message-ID: <20050316022626.D6FF373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Randy McLaughlin once stated: > > I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely > required there are USB to serial adapters. For now. I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. -spc (Still using 10Base-2 at the house ... ) [1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM. I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go. [2] Keyboard, Video, Mouse From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 15 20:28:06 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:28:06 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423799B6.5050803@compsys.to> >Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >>I have a PDP-11/23 and would like to add a hard disk. Would the RQDX3 >>be the way to go? What do I need besides the board itself and an MFM >>drive? Obviously, I need some sort of cable to connect the two. Is >>there anything else I need? Will RT-11 V5 support an MFM drive on an >>RQDX3? >> >The RQDX3 is a great controller. Assuming you can get drives (not >always easy!) you need the usual two cables, plus an RDRX distribution >board, which splits out the signals. Many people just made a custom >cable going from the RQDX3's 50-pin header to the drives, with some >pullup R's added in. > Jerome Fine replies: While I agree that the RQDX3 is a great controller, unless the user has substantial hardware ability to connect a 50 pin cable to the hard drive(s) with 34 pin and 20 pin edge connectors, I suggest the use of a BA23 box which usually contains the panel for the distribution of the RX50 dual floppy drive and 2 MFM hard drives - although the front panel normally has buttons (READY / WRITE PROTECT) for just one hard drive. The BA123 box usually comes with the distribution board to handle the same RX50 floppy and 2 hard drives or up to 4 hard drives with no RX50 floppy - although you also require a SEPARATE assembly for the READY / WRITE PROTECT buttons for EACH hard drive. Being a person without hardware ability, I always choose the BA23 or BA123. >Failing that, I'd strongly suggest a SCSI controller if you can find >(and afford) one, or, quite nice as well, an ESDI controller that >does MSCP- it then basically presents the ESDI drive(s) as >RAxx drives to the system. > These days, the hard drives might actually cost more than the SCSI host adapter (controller). The "nice" part about a SCSI host adapter is the capacity of the hard drives which can be 4 GBytes for very low cost - a few dollars. ESDI controllers are also now very inexpensive, but at least ESDI hard drives are also very large (600 MBytes were standard), but might also be hard to find. >Personally, I use all of the above. ESDI is a very good middle >way solution.. drives are available, cheap and fast. > > I also use all of the above - when I use a real PDP-11. 99% of the time, I now use an emulator under Windows 98 SE since I require 132 character text lines under KED on RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Mar 15 20:33:33 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:33:33 -0800 Subject: Static damage was Re: OT Troubleshooting References: <200503141712.JAA24088@clulw009.amd.com><005801c52999$9b4bd320$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <423740C8.4040206@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <000701c529d0$8cc4a0c0$6401a8c0@hal9000> The reliance on ESD protection diodes is way over-sold. From EDN Dec,2004; "On a schematic, ESD-protection diodes resemble the diodes engineers sometimes use to limit overshoot and undershoot on a high-speed bus, but with one significant difference: the expected lifetime of the diode. An overshoot-limiting diode is huge compared with its ESD-protection cousin, and, because of its large size, the overshoot-limiting diode can absorb pulse after pulse of high-powered current transients, lasting essentially forever. ESD-protection diodes, on the other hand, are small, have limited strength, and aim to handle only a few events in their lifetime. " At Hughes we conducted (no pun intended) failure analysis on any electronic parts we thought may have been compromised (not just CMOS). The parts were de-capitated and scanned (as stated in the other thread). Equipment shot into space cannot tolerate latent defects, as in those days we didn't have a shuttle that could bring back the close orbit satellites. With the high density sub-mil geometry's in IC's now ESD is a huge problem. A lot of dies have "spark gaps" incorporated into the etch. Below is some typical and high end readings for ESD voltages (source: Fairchild ESD Application Note: AN-248). Person on carpet: 12,000 V (highest reading 39,000 V) Person on Vinyl : 4,000 V (highest reading 13,000 V) Person on workbench: 500 V (highest reading 3,000 V) 16 Pin DIPs in plastic box 3,500 V (highest reading 12,000 V) I think you get the idea. The diodes are normally tested at 400 Volts. After multiple ESD hits the diodes fail open and go to their maker. Best regards, Steven C. > Jim Beacon wrote: > > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > > > >>>From: "Tom Jennings" > >>> > >>>CMOS isn't *THAT* sensitive; easy, benign, reasonable precautions > >>>are more than adequate. Ben, the days of early MOS/CMOS > >>>hypersensitivity to static are long gone. Even 1970's 4000 series > >>>had input-protection diodes. > >> > >> The 4051,4052 and 4053 were very static sensitive. But it > >>is try that most were relatively insensitive. Still, if you > >>are hitting a part with a spark large enough to make > >>a sound, you are most likely doing some damage, even if > >>it doesn't show right away. > >>Dwight > >> > > I've changed an unholy amount of these in old analogue synthesizers. > Ensoniq Mirages seem to be the worst for it. > > Gordon. > From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 15 20:31:57 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:31:57 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42379A9D.7000604@compsys.to> David Betz wrote: > Do the drives for the RQDX3 have to be DEC drives or will any MFM > drive do? It seems like ST225 drives are fairly easy to find. Jerome Fine replies: I believe the ST225 is an RD31, but please do not rely on that!!!!!! Other advice has been provided on other e-mails. > Anyone have an RQDX3 with cables and distribution board for sale? Use a BA23 or BA123. The cables are then a standard 50 pin and the standard PC 20 pin and 34 pin with edge connectors. Normally, the BA23 are BA123 have the distribution boards. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 15 20:46:44 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:46:44 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: <51599.64.139.41.130.1110932162.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <10503152310.ZM12388@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <51599.64.139.41.130.1110932162.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <42379E14.6070307@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: >>Peter wrote: > >>RT-11 V.5.x will recognise an RQDX controller and >>drive, but it needs to be V05.03 or higher for an RQDX3 (earlier >>version of V5 have a bug that causes it to fail to initialise RQDX3 >>controllers properly -- though I wrote a patch if you need it). >> >Does the bug affect any other MSCP controllers? I'd be interested in >looking at the patch to see what the RQDX3 does differently than other >MSCP controllers. > Jerome Fine replies: HOWEVER, prior to V05.03 of RT-11, DU(X).SYS is unable to handle RT-11 partitions. Thus you are limited to 32 MBytes hard drives. Starting with V05.03 of RT-11, a hard drive can be up to 8 GBytes, although until V05.05 of RT-11, only 256 MBytes or 8 RT-11 partitions may be active at one time on all drives on the device driver. Starting with V05.05, 64 RT-11 partitions may be active on the device driver. NOTE that although a device driver can handle up to 4 controllers (different CSR / VECTOR pair), it is allowable to use a different device driver for each controller. Thus, if you have all of MFM, ESDI and SCSI controllers (or especially a few of each), you can have as many MSCP device drivers as controllers. I have run real DEC systems with as many as 8 MSCP device drivers (just to see if could be be done - far too many to keep track of under normal conditions). Naturally, each device driver MUST have a separate name PLUS if any are SYSGENed for more than 8 RT-11 partitions, each such device driver that can handle more than 8 RT-11 partitions much start with a different first letter. Do not choose "L" since that is reserved for the LD(X).SYS device driver. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 13:27:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <423785A2.4050206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I do have a vise (and several vices, too...) If I can find an IDC > connector, I'll try that. Unfortunately, it's likely to be easier and > cheaper to find an old SCSI cable with card-edge connector than a new > component. That's what I did. I cut off one end of the SCSI cable and crimped on a 34-pin IDC connector (this took some skill). I also had to cut off the key on the SCSI connector so that it would fit in the normally keyless 50-pin connector on the drive enclosure. If you're connecting directly to the drive itself then you'll probably need an edge connector. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 15 13:35:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050316022626.D6FF373029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Randy McLaughlin once stated: > > > > I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is absolutely > > required there are USB to serial adapters. > > For now. > > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. > > -spc (Still using 10Base-2 at the house ... ) > > [1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I > have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and > it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM. > > I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go. > > [2] Keyboard, Video, Mouse One single phrase of advice: Get to know all the computer recyclers in your area. At this point, computer recyclers are popping up all over the place, as there's money to be made with overseas re-sale and government subsidized recycling programs. These are the guys getting in literally tons of old PC crap every day/week. They're the ones that are going to have odd cables, connectors, gender changers, old parts you need like ISA cards, power supplies, keyboards, disk drives, even the occasional vintage bit of gear like Sun, DEC, SGI, etc. hardware. Forget Radio Shack, and forget eBay. The computer recyclers have what you need. Get to know them, befriend them, charm them, do something nice for them, offer them money, so that they'll be a good source for all kinds of stuff you can't find anywhere else. Better yet, start your own computer recycling business. It's fun and profitable, and if you do it right, people pay you to take stuff away from them. Amazing! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Mar 15 21:43:53 2005 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:43:53 -0800 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <42372068.5080003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <9E154108-95CD-11D9-8A2A-000502453125@eoni.com> NIST has a publication on the care and feeding of CD and DVD media under the title of: NIST Special Publication 500-252, Information Technology: Care and Handling Of CDs and DVDs -- A Guide for Librarians and Archivists Published October 2003. I have it in pdf should anyone care for it. Jim "We need a revolution." "Keep saying that and we'll need a lawyer, assuming they let us have one." Jan Steinman From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 22:01:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:01:01 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: <42379A9D.7000604@compsys.to> References: <42379A9D.7000604@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:31:57 -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > David Betz wrote: > > > Do the drives for the RQDX3 have to be DEC drives or will any MFM > > drive do? It seems like ST225 drives are fairly easy to find. Yes they are, and yes, they will work without modification, as will ST-251s. > Jerome Fine replies: > > I believe the ST225 is an RD31, but please do not rely on that!!!!!! Yes it is. The ST-251 formats up as an RD32. Since they have fewer heads than the full-height devices, they are not as fast (it's quick to switch heads, slower to move them), but they do work. In the specific case of the ST-225, RT-11 partition size won't be an issue because 21.4MB is less than 32MB, so don't worry about what version you are running, as long as it's new enough to have a DU driver. I have never used an RQDX3 except in a BA23 or BA123, but the schemes I've seen described in this thread to manufacture a direct RQDX3->hard drive should all work. If you can lay your hands on a BA23, however, that would greatly simplify things, as you would have the distribution wiring included, as well as a write protect switch and activity light (for one drive, at least... there's an uncommon BA23 front panel that _can_ support two hard drives and no floppies, or one can make some hardware mods... apologies if this is confusing... ignore it if you plan to use only one hard drive, and just know that it will work fine in a standard BA23). -ethan From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Mar 15 22:01:30 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:01:30 -0500 (est) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050316022626.D6FF373029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 15, 05 09:26:25 pm Message-ID: <200503160401.XAA03738@wordstock.com> And thusly Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner spake: > > [1] I have a KVM [2] switch that only uses PS/2 style connectors. I > have an older PC that uses the AT (fat) style keyboard connector and > it's a pain that I can't connect it up to the KVM. > > I tried finding the adapter at a local Rat Shack and no go. Sean, You want the AT-PS/2 Adapter pack - Cat # 26.148 Cheers, Bryan Pope From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 15 06:49:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:49:20 +0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <1110890960.12714.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 23:31 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <1110833470.10973.51.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I forsee four goals to make it useful: > > > > o Cheap > > CPLDs tend to cost between ?10 and ?20 each in 1-off, but you can stuff > nearly all of the logic into just one of them. You could even make the board > in-circuit reprogrammable if you wanted, but I'd be tempted to use an SRAM > FPGA instead of a CPLD if I did that, simply because most FPGAs have open > programming specs (it's something of a requirement - if you have to reload > the fusemap every time you powercycle the chip, you're not going to want to > drag the manufacturer's programmer around with you). You know way more about this side of it than me. ?10 - ?20 seems like a lot of money though, but as others said maybe us brits are being ripped off and buying overseas is a lot cheaper. > > o Simple to build by anyone with a few electronics skills. > > Can you solder a 0.1" pitch PLCC socket? :) Heh. Actually, soldering SMT stuff isn't too bad given the right iron and tip. So I'm game for anything there. > > o Easy / quick connectivity > > Parallel port then. I'd add "Portable across multiple platforms" which > basically means "parport or nothing". Every desktop and laptop machine I've > seen has had an IEEE-1284-compliant (or compliant to a reasonable degree) > parallel port. Is that bidirectional? Just a random thought, but the parallel port interface is going to be an 8 bit bus and a handful of control wires presumably (R/W, 'start', 'clock' etc.) (clock for clocking data between buffer and parallel; board should have its own onboard clock for data between buffer and floppy) Anyway, my random thought was that an 8 bit bus and a few control lines is probably right for interfacing to a USB chip too. So design a parallel port version with space for a header on the board; if people want a USB version they just plug a second board into the first that taps into the parallel bus and control lines. Likely no more expensive than designing a USB version from the ground up, but you get a parallel port version for free (and at leass cost than a USB version because you don't need the plug-in board) > > at it yet, but doubtless a bunch of us on this list could come up with > > something that'd cater for all tastes (plus the really low-level > > software would all be open source anyway!) > > "Here's the CPLD sources, the schematic, and the interface spec. Go forth and > Have Fun." Pretty much. See my other email to the list :) > > Personally I'm not a fan of a USB version though; I'd rather have > > parallel as pretty much any machine has a parallel port - USB limits me > > to newer PCs and Macs (plus software interfacing *might* be harder). > > Me neither - software interfacing for USB is a total pig, not to mention the > fact that you'll need some form of USB controller in the hardware. See above :) > > Priorities seem to me to be (highest first): > > > > o Reading disks > > Easy - start when you get an index pulse, then stop when you get another > pulse. I'd be tempted to make the stop pulse lag a bit though, just to make > sure there's enough overlap to be reasonably sure that you've got all of the > data. As Dwight says it's a bit harder for hard-sectored disks. I'd be tempted to say that v1 is soft-sectored only though as it'd be quicker to get something working as proof of concept; but v2 could follow on quickly with some extra logic to handle hard sectored media. > > o Decoding disk data on host machine > > Synchronisation would be the hardest part of that. If you know where the bit > boundaries are, you can just scan through the data and replace the > flux-reversal sequences with binary bits. > If you wanted to read an Amiga floppy, you'd have to use some form of > circular buffer, find the sync marker, then move the data around in the > buffer before decoding it. But it can be done. And archival rather than decoding's the primary goal anyway, so people can mess around with that once the basic hardware's going. I'll definitely try hacking some code together to do decoding when it gets to that stage; it'd be an interesting challenge. > You could decode the images into whatever format you wanted. It's just a > question of software. Long way off (need working hardware first!) but if the catweasel *drivers* are open source, it might make sense to have a software layer that mimics the catweasel API and allows us to use catweasel drivers reading / writing there; our software layer handles stuff like sync sep (which I gather on the catweasel is done in the hardware) > I've got some digital design knowledge and I've got four weeks spare starting > Friday - I might be able to look into designing something that would read > disks. There should be a spare 3.5" drive around here *somewhere*... Go for it. If you happen to be local (I'm near Cambridge) I've got access to many different types of drives and media. But yep, starting with a single 3.5" drive (and assuming it's the *only* drive connected to the hardware) would seem a good place to start. cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 15 22:52:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:52:44 -0500 Subject: Logical Devices UV Eprom eraser QUV-T8 deal? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315234557.039332b0@mail.30below.com> I need an EPROM eraser, and I found a Logical Devices UV Eprom eraser QUV-T8 for just under $100 shipped. Is this a good deal? I'll get it tonite if I'm not getting bent over... ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 15 23:03:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:03:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy In-Reply-To: <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <42364D75.30601@jetnet.ab.ca> <16950.63963.920858.839656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200503160506.AAA22701@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Umm 6 bits is perfect for BCD, look at IBM's 1620 : 4 bits BCD, 1 >>> bit sign flag/length flag 1 bit parity >> Parity? That is the job of the memory controller - having the >> processor figure out parity is just a waste of CPU. > That depends on whether you trust the datapath between the memory and > the CPU. If not, the place to put parity checking is on the CPU end of that datapath - not in programmer-visible data bits! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 16 00:34:39 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:34:39 -0500 Subject: Belay that last request... HHC info. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050316005257.0532a370@mail.30below.com> Awrighty... 1) I opened up a super-sized can of dammitallanyway, and found a used Spectroline PR-320T for about $30 more; $130 shipped, give or take. I *really* don't need that much of an eraser, but WTF - I guess I'm really loaded for bear now. (the sucker'll do 42 eproms in 6-11 minutes... or so the dox say) -- It's a $729 eraser new. 2) I read the HHC Basic eprom, it appears to have read good. Opening up the .bin file in goatpad [ erm; notepad ] I found the 2-letter error prefixen, the Microsoft Basic copyright thingy, and a reference to: NEIL K & HENRY L ... I'm guessing these are the programmers; or at least the guys who ported it over to the HHC. 3) So far, I have a list of people (4 currently) who want Basic chips... I think this is fair[1]; and should cover my costs & whatnot: First Basic chip: $8 - each additional Basic chip, $3 and US shipping of $3.50 (USPS Priority). I'll throw in 4 extra empty[2] chips for free if you want 'em. If you're not in the US, lemme know where ya live, and I'll quote ya the difference in shipping... but with such a small package, I doubt it would be much. (The last time I shipped something that small to Great Britain, it was less than /pounds 5, IIRC.) Trades may well still be an option, but I'm not willing to trade for an EPROM eraser anymore... ;-) I'm throwing in the double-padded mailers, static bags, other whatnot, etc... Anyway, lemme know what y'all think! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] If you don't think so, lemme know! [2] Now that I'll be able to make 'em forget en masse... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 16 01:35:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:17 -0800 Subject: OT: What is a .SC4 document? Message-ID: Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was written on a Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I think it was some sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can open it with? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 16 02:02:34 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:02:34 +0000 Subject: OT: SPAMMAGE: TEST Message-ID: <4237E81A.6040904@gjcp.net> Sorry about this. I suspect I've fallen off the list. Gordon. From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 02:10:18 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 02:10:18 -0600 Subject: OT: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:17 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was written on a > Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I think it was some > sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can open it with? At or about that time, there was a spreadsheet program named "SC" in it's 4.1 revision, at least according to this site: http://www.rocketaware.com/math/matrix/. It seems plausible that SC6.8 (available here: ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume23/sc6.8/ ) ...should be able to read such a beastie. If not, try 4.1 here: ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume11/sc4.1/ ...or a BSD port available here: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/math/sc/README.html Good Luck, -dhbarr. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 16 02:11:09 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:11:09 -0000 Subject: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was > written on a Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I > think it was some sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can > open it with? SuperCalc 4? I used to have a copy around here somewhere ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 02:11:56 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:11:56 +0800 Subject: OT: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it is SC, then it is a ASCII *nix-based spreadsheet using Curses. http://freshmeat.net/projects/sc/ p.s. SC is current version 7.x, so perhaps it was at v4.x during 1998? On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:35:17 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was written on a > Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I think it was some > sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can open it with? > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 16 02:28:10 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:28:10 GMT Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: "Eric Smith" "Re: RQDX3 on an 11/23?" (Mar 15, 16:16) References: <10503152310.ZM12388@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <51599.64.139.41.130.1110932162.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <10503160828.ZM13482@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 15 2005, 16:16, Eric Smith wrote: > Peter wrote: > > RT-11 V.5.x will recognise an RQDX controller and > > drive, but it needs to be V.5.03 or higher for an RQDX3 (earlier > > version of V5 have a bug that causes it to fail to initialise RQDX3 > > controllers properly -- though I wrote a patch if you need it). > > Does the bug affect any other MSCP controllers? I'd be interested in > looking at the patch to see what the RQDX3 does differently than other > MSCP controllers. It might. Basically the bug is that the driver assumes the SA register is zero, except during initialisation (when it returns various data in confirmation of the initialisation process, and one of four flag bits indicating which step it is performing) or in case of an error (when bit 15 is set). That's fine for an RQDX1 or RQDX2, but not for an RQDX3. On an RQDX3, SA will usually be found to contain a copy of the interrupt vector as well as the above flags/data. The MSCP docs don't actually say it should be zero other than the flag bits, just what certain flag bits mean. At certain points in the code, the SA register is checked to see if bit 15 is set (the error flag). However, the V5.01 code uses BNE, which of course branches if *any* bit is set, instead of BMI, which checks only bit 15. Here's my original (1994) patch, a file called DU.COR to patch DU.MAC: \ -23 ; ; Added (commented) fixes in 4 places, to use with RQDX3. ; Fixes concern use spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) wrote: > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter try http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=131+0410 or http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=131+0420 (both have the same picture, but one is male the other female. Either one costs $1.28 **vp From bqt at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 16 02:54:50 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:54:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: Parity Checking in CPUs (was: Byte sizes...) In-Reply-To: <200503152239.j2FMag8J017718@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503152239.j2FMag8J017718@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > >Parity checking is the job of the memory controller, not the processor. In > >fact, I am having a hard time thinking of a processor that did its own > >parity checking in software (yes, I know any processor could do it, but > >did any really do it?). > > 8085? There's a P bit in the condition code register (in 6809 speak) -- I > think it's called the PSW -- Program Status Word? I'm just beginning > learning assembly on my Tandy 10x/200 machines... Anyway, there are several > arithmetic operations that automatically set the Parity bit and there are > branch and return instructions that utilize the status of the P bit. Unless the 8085 differs from the Z80 (which both come from the 8080) this P-bit is used as parity very loosely speaking. It's actually P/V-bit. For arithmetic operations, it indicates overflow (V), while for logical operations it indicates parity of the result (P). Logic ops simply count the number of "1"s in the result, and set the P bit if the number is odd. Can be useful if you want to generate or check parity for data you're communicating. (Serial communication sometimes don't have hardware parity implemented for example). Parity for memory is never something dealt with by software. It would be a chicken and egg situation. > > Even if the parity checking is a lowly 74180, like > >in a microcomputer - it is still not boggin down the processor. The > >processor really doesn't need to know about parity, unless things go bad. > > Altho it's not a *huge* need, it can be handy for serial I/O... that would > be a function that uses parity, but is not reliant on the memory controller. Yes. But this is two different parity issues. Parity for memory is dealt with by hardware. Parity for communication might be dealt with by hardware or software. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 16 02:46:46 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:46:46 GMT Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: RQDX3 on an 11/23?" (Mar 15, 23:01) References: <42379A9D.7000604@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10503160846.ZM13517@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 15 2005, 23:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have never used an RQDX3 except in a BA23 or BA123, but the schemes > I've seen described in this thread to manufacture a direct RQDX3->hard > drive should all work. If you can lay your hands on a BA23, however, > that would greatly simplify things, as you would have the distribution > wiring included, as well as a write protect switch and activity light > (for one drive, at least... there's an uncommon BA23 front panel that > _can_ support two hard drives and no floppies, or one can make some > hardware mods... apologies if this is confusing... ignore it if you > plan to use only one hard drive, and just know that it will work fine > in a standard BA23). It's certainly easier and likely neater to use the real thing, if you have it. But if you want to "roll your" own, I already published my distribution board layout and the RQDXn pinout, and later today I'll put the M9058 RQDX distribution board layout and circuit, and the circuit diagram for the Write-Protect/Ready switch panel up as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 03:37:09 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:37:09 +0100 Subject: I still cannot send emails to cctalk, so this is a test Message-ID: <20050316093709.GU19265@lug-owl.de> Hi! I wasn't able to send emails to cctalk, so here's another test. I've even got some hardware to offer, but that's hard to do if one's emails just disappear... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 03:38:40 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:40 +0100 Subject: I still cannot send emails to cctech, so this is a test Message-ID: <20050316093839.GV19265@lug-owl.de> Hi! This is another test. I couldn't send emails to cctech either, but I've even got hardware to offer, which is hard if one cannot even send emails that reach their recipients... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 16 04:53:14 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:53:14 -0500 Subject: ProComm Plus Message-ID: <01C529EF.AA0B0A60@H76.C223.tor.velocet.net> -----------Original Message: Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:58:16 -0600 From: "Keys" Subject: ProComm Plus Was someone looking for ProComm Plus awhile back? I found a copy on 3.5 FD today in the warehouse along with several manuals of different versions. Let me know what you need from it. John ---------------------- That might have been me; thanks muchly, but I was (and still am) looking for a comm package called ProCALL. Anybody ever heard of it? Thanks, mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Mar 16 05:16:10 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:16:10 -0500 Subject: Byte sizes, still tastes like nothing Message-ID: <01C529EF.AAF606A0@H76.C223.tor.velocet.net> -------------Original Message: From: "Steven Canning" Subject: Re: Byte sizes, still tastes like nothing Tom, Though I am inclined to agree with you in principle..... how can we discuss technology if we do not agree on the terminology? -------------Reply: Doesn't look like we're about to _agree_ on this any more than anything else (except maybe our appreciation of Jay & the others toiling on our behalf); no shortage of opinions though... mike From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 06:03:31 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:03:31 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds Message-ID: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> Hi all! A friend of me got an intellec mds, with adaptors and two 8" FDDs, to be given to a good home. We've even found a "system" labeled floppy in one of the drives, but we've not attempted to switch on the machine. It stood on the board for about 10 years, so at least a PSU check and a bit of cleaning (for being unused for about 10 years it's however quite clean...). So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, please drop me an email. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From r.stek at snet.net Wed Mar 16 06:56:31 2005 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:56:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re; Age Message-ID: <20050316125631.98201.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> I'm 56.4166666... or thereabouts. I first programmed in high school in FORTRAN on an IBM 1620 and shortly thereafter in Autocoder on a 1401, around 1965-66. I still remmeber reading in a column in Popular Science that "scientists predict that in the future computers would be the size of shoe boxes..." Since I was a teenager and was already an expert on computers (and most everything else), I laughed at this silly idea... until 10 years later. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Mar 16 07:18:28 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:18:28 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds References: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <003101c52a2a$a4628440$2101a8c0@finans> Hi JB If nobody else wants it desperately, I volunteer. I'll be driving through Germany in may, so if that is not a problem I would be happy to pick it up, in exchange for a nice case of Danish "Eastern Brew". Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan-Benedict Glaw" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 1:03 PM Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds Hi all! A friend of me got an intellec mds, with adaptors and two 8" FDDs, to be given to a good home. We've even found a "system" labeled floppy in one of the drives, but we've not attempted to switch on the machine. It stood on the board for about 10 years, so at least a PSU check and a bit of cleaning (for being unused for about 10 years it's however quite clean...). So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, please drop me an email. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 07:19:56 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:19:56 -0500 Subject: Re; Age Message-ID: <42c0a6142c1279.42c127942c0a61@optonline.net> > I first programmed in high school in FORTRAN on an IBM > 1620 and shortly thereafter.... I read this as "...on an IBM **IN** 1620..." and thought we really had a winner on the oldest programmer.... ...oh, the coffee is ready....BRB.... From kandres at epssecurity.com Wed Mar 16 07:40:00 2005 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:40:00 -0500 Subject: Age??!! Message-ID: I didn?t reply to CCTech, I replied off list, but I am 50-54 also. Is a new compilation coming up? I?m curious. Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. HYPERLINK "mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com"mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 From kandres at epssecurity.com Wed Mar 16 07:57:58 2005 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:57:58 -0500 Subject: Age/History Message-ID: Paxton Hoag wrote: >> When this survey started I really enjoyed the list of early computers >> used that people added. >> It would be both on topic and fun to continue. Yes! Earliest experience SWTP. Bootloader binary from switches to run a cassette file loader. Vaguely remember an IMSAI something, Believe it was 8088. Also a weird little strip printer in a wood side case with smoked glass cover that went with either the SWTP or the IMSAI. Commodore PET ?Chiclet?, still have it, run issues. Ohio Scientific Superboard used as an embedded device for alarm system printing. Still have one, haven?t run in years. Dual 5.25 floppies in case that were connected to Superboard at one time in office. Most of what we did was cassette loaded due to field volatility of disk drives, (heavy handed field personnel). 8088 dedicated processor for audible coding of fire system and graphic LED displays. Various DEC over the years. 11/23 comes to mind. Think I still have manuals in a drawer with schematics for older DEC equipment here somewhere. Data General Micro Nova used as a central Station monitoring system. Have the processor, lost the 10 Meg disk drives. Big on serial ports, All printers and terminals were serial LSI?s. Had one of those for a while, Eventually caved to ?wife? and got rid of the terminal. Various embedded 8749 machines over the last 14 years. I tend to do the hardware and another gent here writes the code. I learned in 6502 machine code, completely missed the assembly era. I have no idea where I was. Then jumped into various compilers. Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. HYPERLINK "mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com"mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Mar 16 07:59:57 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:59:57 +0100 Subject: Age??!! References: Message-ID: <007101c52a30$704c69e0$2101a8c0@finans> It seems that some people were offended by the survey. This was of course not my intention, and I apologize to those were took offence. I will collect the ages a week or so more, and send a direct mail to everyone who has responded For the same reason, I would suggest that those who want to be aprt of the survey, send me a mail directly Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Andres" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: RE: Age??!! I didn?t reply to CCTech, I replied off list, but I am 50-54 also. Is a new compilation coming up? I?m curious. Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. HYPERLINK "mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com"mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 16 08:27:52 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:27:52 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSX tape backup problem References: <42364AC5.2050402@splab.cas.neu.edu> <16950.63557.708067.83896@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42376DE7.2090306@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <16952.17000.125000.167824@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "joe" == joe heck writes: joe> The problem with the BCK files is that they come in as 2064 byte joe> blocks from the tape and VMS gets really upset when I try to joe> write them to the disk. Haven't figured out how to deblock them joe> enough to get them on to the system. Strange. You shouldn't need to. If you tell RMS that you want fixed length records, length 2064, "spanned", it should accept what you have just fine. Or convert them to TAP format before writing them to disk... paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Mar 16 09:08:05 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 05 15:08:05 GMT Subject: Apology to the list Message-ID: <0503161508.AA14273@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Dear Fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I want to apologize for my recent behavior here. I'm sorry that I was pushed over the edge by John's innocent suggestions of using some more modern technology. I was clearly in the wrong state of mind when I wrote that the purpose of my life was in using old technology and nothing new and that I would shed blood (whether my own or anyone else's) over it. Of course no piece of technology, old or new, is worth shedding blood over. I don't know what came over me when I wrote that. Those who know me more closely know that I've been leaning more and more over to alternative spirituality and metaphysics and that technology of any kind, old or now, currently plays a very small part in my life. So certainly I'm not going to kill over it. But I promise I won't bring up any more off-topic stuff here. Technology can be fun, and even I am open to some modernisation. Like I'm trying to transition from a VT320 to a VXT X11 terminal. To bring this back on topic, I'll soon be working on a MOP server for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus for netbooting these VXTs, and getting X11R4 to run on my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hosts. Fun fun fun. Blessed Be everyone, MS From sheehan at sheehan.tzo.com Wed Mar 16 09:11:13 2005 From: sheehan at sheehan.tzo.com (Bill Sheehan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:11:13 -0500 Subject: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> SuperCalc was my first thought, but if I'm not mistaken, SuperCalc 4 goes back to the mid-80's and was pretty much forgotten by the early 90's. Also, I believe SuperCalc used .cal as an extension. According to this site, it's a RollerCoaster Tycoon scenario file: http://www.icdatamaster.com/s.html -- Bill On Mar 16, 2005, at 3:11 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was >> written on a Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I >> think it was some sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can >> open it with? > > SuperCalc 4? > > I used to have a copy around here somewhere ... > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Mar 16 09:12:28 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 05 15:12:28 GMT Subject: Apology to the list Message-ID: <0503161512.AA14287@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Forgot to add: yes, the Amish ARE peace-loving people, and I'm really trying to learn their way. I really am trying, it's just hard for me sometimes when I let myself go overboard. Blessed Be everyone again, and Blessed Ostara to those who know what it means :-) MS From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 09:19:04 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:19:04 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration Message-ID: <000f01c52a3b$7e5628e0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> I am supposed to be getting a TU56 DECtape unit today. I believe it was functional when it was retired, but it supposedly now has a grimy film on it. My plan is to assess its condition, then clean it up. I need to study the manual and technical drawings, but my question is: Can I easily test the mechanics, on/off switches, lamps, motors, etc, without hooking up the TC11? I think there is a local mode switch and wondered what all could be tested easily without hooking up the TC11. I will be studying the documentation to get a better idea about things. I have a TC11 that also needs to be cleaned up. It has a layer of dust on it and needs a couple boards, which should be here soon. The goal is to get it hooked up to my 11/40 eventually. I have a number of DECtapes. Thanks for any advice that anyone might have, Ashley From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 16 09:27:28 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:27:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> References: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> Message-ID: Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was > written on a Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I > think it was some sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can > open it with? According to this site, it might be a Sim City file: http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=sc4&Submit3=Go%21 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 09:31:07 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:31:07 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration Message-ID: <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> > Can I easily test the mechanics, on/off switches, lamps, motors, > etc, without hooking up the TC11? I think there is a local > mode switch and wondered what all could be tested easily > without hooking up the TC11. I will be studying the documentation > to get a better idea about things. I have a TC11 that also needs > to be cleaned up. It has a layer of dust on it and needs a couple > boards, which should be here soon. > I am also hoping to start firing up my PDP-8 and TU56 in the next few weeks [the lab is almost re-built!!!!!] so perhaps Ashley and I could coordinate our (limited) knowledge and run various tests in parallel.... From petouche at uci.edu Wed Mar 16 00:16:14 2005 From: petouche at uci.edu (Paul Touchette) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:16:14 -0800 Subject: Frieden calculator Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20050315221357.01aa1120@pop.uci.edu> Do you still have the calculator ? And perhaps a picture of it, as I really don't know what the ,model designation means. And finally, a manual of operation ? My interest is sentimental. Paul Touchette Paul E. Touchette, Psychologist Developmental Disabilities Service Department of Pediatrics University of California, Irvine voice: 714-957-5487 fax: 714-957-5354 petouche at uci.edu From sadolph at istop.com Wed Mar 16 06:14:43 2005 From: sadolph at istop.com (Steve Adolph) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:14:43 -0500 Subject: Logical Devices UV Eprom eraser QUV-T8 deal? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315234557.039332b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315234557.039332b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42382333.2010906@istop.com> i made one fo about 25$... http://www.mikeg2.freeserve.co.uk/eprom/eraser.html just don't look at the bulb. your eyes are a lot like germs to a germicidal UV bulb. Roger Merchberger wrote: > I need an EPROM eraser, and I found a Logical Devices UV Eprom eraser > QUV-T8 for just under $100 shipped. Is this a good deal? > > I'll get it tonite if I'm not getting bent over... ;-) > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson > zmerch at 30below.com | > > > From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 06:52:23 2005 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:52:23 -0000 Subject: Tektronix vector graphics terminal on eBay - USA Message-ID: If anyone on this list is interested, as a buy-it-now for $25, location Rio Rancho, NM United States. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2560430340 Tektronix TEK 4114 Engineering Work Station. Suit someone with loads of space! Regards, John From bv at norbionics.com Wed Mar 16 07:37:18 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:37:18 +0100 Subject: OT: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:35:17 +0100, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was written on a > Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I think it was some sort > of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can open it with? > Should be SuperCalc 4, a spreadsheet program sold by CA. In my opinion a lot better than Lotus 123, which was common at the time (late eighties). I might have SC4 for PC-DOS somewhere, I got a multi-licence for it at one time. No guarantee the diskette is still readable... -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Wed Mar 16 07:37:18 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:37:18 +0100 Subject: OT: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:35:17 +0100, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was written on a > Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I think it was some sort > of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can open it with? > Should be SuperCalc 4, a spreadsheet program sold by CA. In my opinion a lot better than Lotus 123, which was common at the time (late eighties). I might have SC4 for PC-DOS somewhere, I got a multi-licence for it at one time. No guarantee the diskette is still readable... -- Bj?rn From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Mar 16 09:29:15 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:15 -0600 Subject: VCF East 3.0 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When/where will the VCF Midwest be? -Bob >On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> No time like now to start preparing... >> >> So what is the status of VCF East this year? Approx date/month? Are >> we gonna have it at Sun again? It was nice having it there, but the >> logistics of security, sign-in and getting equipment in were rather rough. > >Not sure. I made initial forrays into finding a location but nothing >concrete so far. Sun is a no-go. Had an interest from the folks at the >Boston Museum of Science but they flaked. > >Haven't given it much thought since. For the time being I'm focusing now >on a VCF Midwest and trying to finish some time critical projects that are >taking up all my time. > >When I do start thinking about it again, it will be whether or not I'm >going to actually hold it this year since I have some other plans that >take priority. Sorry to have to say that, but I just don't want to let >anyone down. > >There's still the possibility to organize it from afar if I can get a >local host, but there would only be a 50/50 chance I would actually attend >myself. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From DawsoJ01 at unisourcelink.com Wed Mar 16 09:35:01 2005 From: DawsoJ01 at unisourcelink.com (Dawson, Jim (Itasca, IL)) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:35:01 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore Message-ID: Know anyone interested? It's in the Chicago area. Jim Dawson Manager of PC/LAN WEST (Mid-America, Central, Pacific S./Desert Mt., Pacific N.) Office 630-875-7950 Cell ph 708-363-1561 Fax 770-659-4683 or jim at 7706594683 From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Mar 16 10:03:48 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:03:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems Message-ID: <20050316160348.72B473BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Hi, I have returned to my HP9915B that blows its fuse as soon as you power it up. I followed Tony's advice and checked the two large capacitors (C46 and C58), and the PIC645 and they are all OK. I then checked the U30 (3524) in the chopper sense circuit and its OK as well. I checked the parts after removing them from the PCB to ensure that there was no interference by other components. So now I am really at a loss and wonder if anybody has any ideas. Best Regards **vp From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 16 10:15:23 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:15:23 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration References: <000f01c52a3b$7e5628e0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <16952.23451.982000.255854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> I am supposed to be getting a TU56 DECtape unit today. I Ashley> believe it was functional when it was retired, but it Ashley> supposedly now has a grimy film on it. Isopropyl alcohol to the rescue -- carefully scrub the heads and the tape guides (including the spring mounted side guides). Ashley> Can I easily test the mechanics, on/off switches, lamps, Ashley> motors, etc, without hooking up the TC11? I think there is a Ashley> local mode switch and wondered what all could be tested Ashley> easily without hooking up the TC11. I don't know to what extent, if any, this depends on having a controller hooked up, but... if you load a tape and turn on the drive, and observe that the motors establish tape tension and hold the tape steady (no creep) then a lot is working. Then you can hit the left/right switch and observe that the tape quickly accelerates to a steady motion, and just as quickly stops smoothly when you release the switch. paul From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Mar 16 10:16:00 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:16:00 +0100 (MET) Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Do the drives for the RQDX3 have to be DEC drives or will any MFM > > > drive do? It seems like ST225 drives are fairly easy to find. > > Yes they are, and yes, they will work without modification, as will ST-251s. DEC used Seagate ST225 (RD31) and ST251 (RD32) drives, various Seagate models for RD50 and RD51, three different vendors for the RD52 drive, two for the RD53 (Micropolis and ?) and then there's the RD54 (maxtor 2190) that comes in three flavors. So.. although the *format* must be DEC, this has nothing to do with the drive per se. You can format an ST251 as usual, and then "label" it as being an RD31. This will waste space, but other than that, it works fine. > Yes it is. The ST-251 formats up as an RD32. Since they have fewer The RD32 _is_ an ST251. > heads than the full-height devices, they are not as fast (it's quick > to switch heads, slower to move them), but they do work. In the This is true.. most (but not all) full-height drives are faster than their same-capacity half-height friends, because of what Ethan just explained. The same goes for drives with more sectors per track, obviously. All this -does- depend on the drives, though, its not a given. > I have never used an RQDX3 except in a BA23 or BA123, but the schemes > I've seen described in this thread to manufacture a direct RQDX3->hard > drive should all work. If you can lay your hands on a BA23, however, Yes, you can make such a cable easily, especially if you're only going to connect a single drive. PeteD posted the howto on it. --f From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 10:19:45 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:19:45 +0100 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050316161945.GD19265@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-03-16 10:35:01 -0500, Dawson, Jim (Itasca, IL) wrote in message : > Know anyone interested? It's in the Chicago area. Interested? Yes! ...but I guess shipping would kill me :( MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From allain at panix.com Wed Mar 16 10:21:41 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:21:41 -0500 Subject: Tektronix vector graphics terminal on eBay - USA References: Message-ID: <032f01c52a44$3d89a220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Tektronix 4114. Rio Rancho, NM I think I would drive up to 500 miles for such a thing. Unfortunately this distance is more like 2000 mi. Thanks very much for posting. John A. From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed Mar 16 10:38:33 2005 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore Message-ID: I am really close to this and I have storage space, but I don't know exactly what the 6400 is. I worked with an 11/780 in college, and that's too big for me to handle. A desk sized VAX (like a microVAX) would be fun to play with. Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dawson, Jim (Itasca, IL) Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 9:35 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore Know anyone interested? It's in the Chicago area. Jim Dawson Manager of PC/LAN WEST (Mid-America, Central, Pacific S./Desert Mt., Pacific N.) Office 630-875-7950 Cell ph 708-363-1561 Fax 770-659-4683 or jim at 7706594683 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 10:49:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:49:19 +0000 Subject: Tektronix vector graphics terminal on eBay - USA In-Reply-To: <032f01c52a44$3d89a220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <032f01c52a44$3d89a220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1110991759.14652.69.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 11:21 -0500, John Allain wrote: > > Tektronix 4114. Rio Rancho, NM > > I think I would drive up to 500 miles for such a thing. > Unfortunately this distance is more like 2000 mi. Just pretend there are four of them :) From allain at panix.com Wed Mar 16 10:52:29 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:52:29 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore References: Message-ID: <039301c52a48$8af12ac0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > but I don't know exactly what the 6400 is. > ...A desk sized VAX {?} not desk sized. More like 2'w x 3'd x 6'h, 300~400lb, and 208-volt type requirements. Very nicely laid out though, a lot of neat HW monitoring and management features not present in any desktop. John A. From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 11:02:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:02:25 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration References: <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> Message-ID: <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > Can I easily test the mechanics, on/off switches, lamps, motors, > > etc, without hooking up the TC11? I think there is a local > > mode switch and wondered what all could be tested easily > > without hooking up the TC11. I will be studying the documentation > > to get a better idea about things. I have a TC11 that also needs > > to be cleaned up. It has a layer of dust on it and needs a couple > > boards, which should be here soon. > > > > I am also hoping to start firing up my PDP-8 and TU56 in the next few weeks [the lab is > almost re-built!!!!!] so perhaps Ashley and I could coordinate our (limited) knowledge > and run various tests in parallel.... Yes, it is more fun (and educational!) if more than one person is working on the same project. Sharing knowledge, successes, and failures is a good thing. Keep me informed on your progress and I'll do likewise. Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 11:06:35 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:06:35 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration References: <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <007201c52a4a$83697440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > I am also hoping to start firing up my PDP-8 and TU56 in the next few weeks > [the lab is > > almost re-built!!!!!] so perhaps Ashley and I could coordinate our (limited) > knowledge > > and run various tests in parallel.... > > Yes, it is more fun (and educational!) if more than one person is working > on the same project. Sharing knowledge, successes, and failures is a > good thing. Keep me informed on your progress and I'll do likewise. David, do you have all the TU56 manuals and prints that you need? I have several TU56 manuals and the TC11 manual and prints (which would not apply to your PDP-8 implementation). Ashley From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 11:12:52 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:12:52 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration Message-ID: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> > David, do you have all the TU56 manuals and prints that you need? I > have several TU56 manuals and the TC11 manual and prints (which > would not apply to your PDP-8 implementation). > NO! [are they available on BitSavers????] From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 11:21:45 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:45 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600, Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > I am really close to this and I have storage space, but I don't know exactly what the 6400 is. > I worked with an 11/780 in college, and that's too big for me to handle. > A desk sized VAX (like a microVAX) would be fun to play with. It is desk size, if you lay it down. It is narrow and tall, but the volume is similar to that of a desk. vax, 9000 > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dawson, Jim (Itasca, > IL) > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 9:35 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore > > Know anyone interested? It's in the Chicago area. > > Jim Dawson > Manager of PC/LAN WEST (Mid-America, Central, Pacific S./Desert Mt., Pacific > N.) > Office 630-875-7950 > Cell ph 708-363-1561 > Fax 770-659-4683 or jim at 7706594683 > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 16 11:29:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:29:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Media Longitevity/Care Message-ID: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Saquinn624 at aol.com > >Coming in on this a little bit late, but if you haven't checked out the >Library of Congress you should. >www.loc.gov/preserv gives you a basic run down of ways to care for archived >materials, and the NIST/CLIR puts out Special Publication 500-252 "Care and >Handling of CDs and DVDs - A Guide for Librarians and Archivists" (e-version >available). Other tips- gold disks, AZO dye are reputed to last longer. >The phenomenon of failure from the outside in has interesting possibilities- >have software write a known pattern in the outermost section of the disc and >pop up a warning when it starts to deteriorate. Hopefully this would give >enough time to move data to another disk. > >- Scott Quinn > Hi This does require regular reading of the archived disk. This is not necessarily an easy thing to do. Dwight From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 11:37:29 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:37:29 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration References: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> Message-ID: <000601c52a4e$d40091f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > David, do you have all the TU56 manuals and prints that you need? I > > have several TU56 manuals and the TC11 manual and prints (which > > would not apply to your PDP-8 implementation). > > > > NO! [are they available on BitSavers????] Yep, here's what I found there: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-00-HRTC-D_TU56_Jul72.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-00-HRTC-D_TU56maint_73.pdf For your PDP-8 - TC08: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-08-H3DA-D_TC08_Jun70.pdf For my unibus PDP-11 : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/TC11man.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/TC11EngDngs.pdf Other related stuff is also in the /pdf/dec/dectape folder. Ashley From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Mar 16 11:54:37 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:54:37 -0600 Subject: Testing disk controller for FM compatability was Re: Qumetrak 242 drive References: Message-ID: <00fb01c52a51$3d4a6350$913dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:59 AM > On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >> If you want to read single density, a PC with a single-density-capable >> floppy disk controller. Many aren't, and the only sure way to tell >> is to try it. > > Speaking of which, what's a good test to try if you don't have a known FM > encoded disk? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Programs like anadisk & 22disk will give errors if you try to format at disk with FM encoding if the controller doesn't support it. Also when you do format it you can run anadisks scan to check it out. FM works on 3.5" disks (all standard media will allow formatting in FM) so you can test your controller without having to connect any other drives Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 16 11:59:29 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:59:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: SAGE manual In-Reply-To: References: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> Message-ID: Does anyone here know who owns the SAGE "Theory of Programming for AN/FSQ-7" manual on Bitsavers? http://bitsavers.vt100.net/ibm/sage/31P2-2FSQ7-112_SagePgmNov56.pdf I'd like to get some hi-res grayscale scans of the illustrations. I tried to contact Al Kossow, but haven't heard back. Alternately, if anyone has any other SAGE documentation not previously made available, please contact me off-list. Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 12:17:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:17:25 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration - more good info References: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> <000601c52a4e$d40091f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <001b01c52a54$68515fb0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > > David, do you have all the TU56 manuals and prints that you need? I > > > have several TU56 manuals and the TC11 manual and prints (which > > > would not apply to your PDP-8 implementation). > > > > > > > NO! [are they available on BitSavers????] > > Yep, here's what I found there: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-00-HRTC-D_TU56_Jul72.pdf > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-00-HRTC-D_TU56maint_73.pdf > > For your PDP-8 - TC08: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-08-H3DA-D_TC08_Jun70.pdf > > For my unibus PDP-11 : > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/TC11man.pdf > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/TC11EngDngs.pdf > > Other related stuff is also in the /pdf/dec/dectape folder. More good TU56 "tech-tips" documents can be found here. These appear to be from a DEC 1974 Field Service Technical Manual. http://www.pdp8.net/bklatt/TechTips.html Ashley From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 16 12:14:10 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:14:10 -0800 Subject: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0500 3/16/05, Mike Loewen wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Does anyone happen to know what a .SC4 file is. It was >>written on a Linux system in 1998 (most likely Red Hat), and I >>think it was some sort of spreadsheet. Any idea what I can >>open it with? > > According to this site, it might be a Sim City file: > >http://filext.com/detaillist.php?extdetail=sc4&Submit3=Go%21 Well, as the file is from 1998, and I wrote it, I know it's not a Sim City 4 file :^) Bj?rn suggested that it might be a SuperCalc 4 file, but I suspect Applixware or one of the free unix spreadsheet apps from that time are more likely. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 12:21:07 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:21:07 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds In-Reply-To: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> References: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20050316182107.GI19265@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-03-16 13:03:31 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote in message <20050316120331.GX19265 at lug-owl.de>: > So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, > Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, > please drop me an email. Some question for the aftermath, which I'd better had prepared beforehand. How is hardware transfer "normally" done on this list? Give it to the first person who replied (discriminating those who can only read emails once a day, or those that are currently asleep). Or shall I wait a week and cast a lot? ...or pick the one that actually offered money, hardware or beer in exchange? I (read that: my friend) don't want to make a fortune, it's only about finding a new, good home. So you who already replied to me, please do it once again with a suggestion how to solve my unpreparedness :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 16 12:21:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:21:31 -0800 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:21 PM -0500 3/16/05, 9000 VAX wrote: >On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600, Kapteyn, Rob wrote: >> I am really close to this and I have storage space, but I don't >>know exactly what the 6400 is. >> I worked with an 11/780 in college, and that's too big for me to handle. >> A desk sized VAX (like a microVAX) would be fun to play with. > >It is desk size, if you lay it down. It is narrow and tall, but the >volume is similar to that of a desk. Somehow I think he meant desktop sized :^) Unless of course he's planning to get a pair of BA123's or BA23's and put piece of plywood on top to use them as a desk :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Mar 16 12:44:32 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:44:32 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds In-Reply-To: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> References: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050316194334.03d64860@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I still have some drawings/documentation of Intel Intellec stuff, not completely for free but well just something small or something and it can go. Stefan At 13:03 16-3-2005, you wrote: >Hi all! > >A friend of me got an intellec mds, with adaptors and two 8" FDDs, to be >given to a good home. We've even found a "system" labeled floppy in one >of the drives, but we've not attempted to switch on the machine. It >stood on the board for about 10 years, so at least a PSU check and a bit >of cleaning (for being unused for about 10 years it's however quite >clean...). > >So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, >Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, >please drop me an email. > >MfG, JBG > >-- >Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . >+49-172-7608481 _ O _ >"Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen >Krieg _ _ O > fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B??rger" | im Internet! | im > Irak! O O O >ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Mar 16 12:37:29 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:37:29 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a6b8559f4ddd73d1813c5703b352c4d@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks everyone for your advise on using the RQDX3 with an 11/23! It looks like I'm in the market for the RQDX3 itself and a BA23 along with whatever cables are required to connect everything. I think I can probably come up with an appropriate MFM drive on my own. Anyone have any of this equipment they'd like to sell? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 16 12:48:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:48:51 -0600 Subject: VCF East 3.0 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42387F93.4030705@oldskool.org> Bob Brown wrote: > When/where will the VCF Midwest be? Oo! Please say Illinois! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 16 12:48:39 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:48:39 -0800 Subject: TU56 restoration In-Reply-To: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> References: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1110998919.6741.4.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 12:12 -0500, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > > David, do you have all the TU56 manuals and prints that you need? I > > have several TU56 manuals and the TC11 manual and prints (which > > would not apply to your PDP-8 implementation). > > > > NO! [are they available on BitSavers????] I have a fairly complete set (haven't checked to see what I *might* be missing) of TU55, TU56, TC11, TC01, TC08, etc. manuals. I think I've lent them to Al in the past for scanning so they should be available on BitSavers. If there's still something that's missing, let me and Al know and I can lend them to Al for scanning. -- TTFN - Guy From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 16 12:55:05 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:55:05 -0800 Subject: TU56 restoration References: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> <000601c52a4e$d40091f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: > For your PDP-8 - TC08: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DEC-08-H3DA-D_TC08_Jun70.pdf > A few more: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/DEC-08-I2AB-D_TC01_Jul69.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/TC01_MaintMan.pdf http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8prints/td8e.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/DECtapeSkewAdj.pdf http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/dec-8e-euzc-d.pdf http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/maindec-08-ditca-a-d.pdf Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 16 13:04:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds Message-ID: <200503161904.LAA25410@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jan-Benedict Glaw" > >On Wed, 2005-03-16 13:03:31 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw >wrote in message <20050316120331.GX19265 at lug-owl.de>: > >> So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, >> Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, >> please drop me an email. > >Some question for the aftermath, which I'd better had prepared >beforehand. How is hardware transfer "normally" done on this list? Give >it to the first person who replied (discriminating those who can only >read emails once a day, or those that are currently asleep). Or shall I >wait a week and cast a lot? ...or pick the one that actually offered >money, hardware or beer in exchange? > >I (read that: my friend) don't want to make a fortune, it's only about >finding a new, good home. So you who already replied to me, please do it >once again with a suggestion how to solve my unpreparedness :) Hi I would first wait for 24 hours. Next select out any that are willing to pay a rediculously high price or are willing to pick it up locally. Then write email to all those others that requested to let them know that they are not currently being considered. Of the selected group, request from each a description of why they believe they should be selected ( less than 1K words ). Make your choice then. Also let the others know that they were not selected as well but if the first person backed out, they might still have a chance. Just my thoughts Dwight PS wish I was in Germany. > >MfG, JBG > >-- >Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ >"Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O > fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B??rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O >ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 13:05:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:05:14 -0500 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: <4a6b8559f4ddd73d1813c5703b352c4d@xlisper.mv.com> References: <4a6b8559f4ddd73d1813c5703b352c4d@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:37:29 -0500, David Betz wrote: > Thanks everyone for your advise on using the RQDX3 with an 11/23! You're welcome. > It looks like I'm in the market for the RQDX3 itself and a BA23 along > with whatever cables are required to connect everything. I think I can > probably come up with an appropriate MFM drive on my own. It's certainly the easier route as long as you can find a BA23 for cheap/free. > Anyone have any of this equipment they'd like to sell? I do not, but once upon a time, one of the cheapest sources was MicroVAX-Is... just pull out the CPU and set it aside. One bonus is that uVAX-I memory is Qbus memory and works great with PDP-11 CPUs (unlike uVAX-II memory, which is PMI). Another bonus is that if one _wants_ to play with Ultrix-32 v1 or MicroVMS, you still have all the parts. You can literally pull the CPU and/or memory from a MicroVAX I/II and drop in a KDF11 or KDJ11 and required memory, and *bam* - a MicroPDP... -ethan From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 13:12:42 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:12:42 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <43a575243a68e6.43a68e643a5752@optonline.net> <1110998919.6741.4.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <004f01c52a5c$21536b00$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Is the H720 the correct power supply for the TC11/TU56 combo, as is indicated in some document I've looked at? I'm at work and don't have my notes. Are there other compatible DEC power supplies that will work with the TC11/TU56? Thanks, Ashley From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Mar 16 13:30:27 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:30:27 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds In-Reply-To: <200503161904.LAA25410@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503161904.LAA25410@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050316193027.GM19265@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-03-16 11:04:08 -0800, Dwight K. Elvey wrote in message <200503161904.LAA25410 at clulw009.amd.com>: > PS wish I was in Germany. Well, the box isn't all *that* large, but somewhat heavy. Maybe sending it with a ship will result in an "acceptable" price? Though, I don't know at all how expensive it is... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 13:34:02 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:34:02 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question Message-ID: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> > Is the H720 the correct power supply for the TC11/TU56 > combo, as is indicated in some document I've looked at? > I'm at work and don't have my notes. Are there other > compatible DEC power supplies that will work with the > TC11/TU56? > On a related note...any special concerns on an initial powerup of a TU-56 that has not been turned on for possibly 5+ years....?? From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 16 13:40:21 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:40:21 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 14:34 -0500, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > > Is the H720 the correct power supply for the TC11/TU56 > > combo, as is indicated in some document I've looked at? > > I'm at work and don't have my notes. Are there other > > compatible DEC power supplies that will work with the > > TC11/TU56? > > > > On a related note...any special concerns on an initial powerup of a > TU-56 that has not been turned on for possibly 5+ years....?? Any solid DC supplies that match the requirements of the TC11/TU56 should be fine. The TU56 on my 8-e has a non-DEC supply and it seems to work fine. Other than the usual caution about capacitors in power supplies, the TU56 does suffer from deterioration of the motor run capacitors (these are quite different than motor start caps). The often need to be replaced and are fairly expensive (I seem to recall that mine were $25/ea and there are 4). They are also a bit difficult to find. If anyone has any other suggestions (or sources for motor run caps), I'd be interested too. -- TTFN - Guy From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 13:55:29 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:55:29 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > On a related note...any special concerns on an initial powerup of a > > TU-56 that has not been turned on for possibly 5+ years....?? > > Any solid DC supplies that match the requirements of the TC11/TU56 > should be fine. The TU56 on my 8-e has a non-DEC supply and it seems to > work fine. Guy said: > Other than the usual caution about capacitors in power supplies.... Since I am fairly new to the hardware end of this stuff and just started messing with it less about 8 or 9 months ago, can you give me a little primer on the caution of capacitors in power supplies? Ashley From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 16 13:55:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:55:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF East 3.0 ? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050316195518.40821.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> They're planning for Indiana (Purdue U.). FYI, there are several other events (and related events still interesting to we nerds) listed on my web site. I plan to update the list again soon; submissions are encouraged! --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Bob Brown wrote: > > When/where will the VCF Midwest be? > > Oo! Please say Illinois! Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 16 14:12:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:12:16 -0800 Subject: Solved: What is a .SC4 document? In-Reply-To: References: <004b01c529ff$b6e18740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <74bbc51192b1478b76e1da1f2104f5a2@sheehan.tzo.com> Message-ID: It turns out that I missed spotting a key piece of info when I took a look inside of the file last night. It's a "StarCalc 4.0" file, which I believe means it was created with Star Office 4.0. So, I should be able to read it with Star Office once I load that on my Ultra 60. My thanks to everyone that helped! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Mar 16 14:46:25 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:46:25 -0800 Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: References: <4a6b8559f4ddd73d1813c5703b352c4d@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0500 3/16/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: >You can literally pull the CPU and/or memory from a MicroVAX I/II and >drop in a KDF11 or KDJ11 and required memory, and *bam* - a >MicroPDP... I've done the J-11 <--> uVaxII exchange with pretty good success. Having the Console Panel (in the back, CK-KA630-A) for the uVax seems to be a necessity; not needed for the J-11. I have not tried the F-11 in a generic BA23, though I would expect it to work. Will the J-11 correctly mate with the RUN/START/drive lock panel in the front? How is that best handled without an actual 11/23 or 11/23+ front panel? John From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed Mar 16 14:42:41 2005 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:42:41 -0600 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore Message-ID: I know that it's not a desktop. I have seen VAX installations as big as a semi trailer, and then I've seen the desk sized ones. So far I have limited my collection to "hobbyist" classics like my Altair and H8. But a "business" machine like a VAX could be cute too. Especially if it has a front panel with lots of lights and switches ? I tried to find photos on the web, but no quick success. Thanks, -Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 12:22 PM To: 9000 VAX; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-TopicPosts Subject: Re: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore At 12:21 PM -0500 3/16/05, 9000 VAX wrote: >On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600, Kapteyn, Rob wrote: >> I am really close to this and I have storage space, but I don't >>know exactly what the 6400 is. >> I worked with an 11/780 in college, and that's too big for me to handle. >> A desk sized VAX (like a microVAX) would be fun to play with. > >It is desk size, if you lay it down. It is narrow and tall, but the >volume is similar to that of a desk. Somehow I think he meant desktop sized :^) Unless of course he's planning to get a pair of BA123's or BA23's and put piece of plywood on top to use them as a desk :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 16 14:54:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:54:24 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore References: Message-ID: <16952.40192.188659.922772@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rob" == Rob Kapteyn writes: Rob> I know that it's not a desktop. I have seen VAX installations Rob> as big as a semi trailer, and then I've seen the desk sized Rob> ones. Rob> So far I have limited my collection to "hobbyist" classics like Rob> my Altair and H8. But a "business" machine like a VAX could be Rob> cute too. Especially if it has a front panel with lots of Rob> lights and switches ? Sorry, there aren't any VAXen with lights and switches. DEC got away from those somewhere in the PDP11 era. You could make your own, perhaps... :-) paul From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 16 14:55:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:55:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay Message-ID: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5173766870& It's quite overpriced, probably times 5 or times 10. I kindly and tactfully wrote to the seller explaining this, but of course I'll lack credibility with them. The seller ("gold-snipper") is a recycler in Portland OR, maybe someone could contact them and go visit? If they're bothering to list on eBay, that's a good sign. They know it might have some value other than by-weight. Who knows what else they have up there. There's a tape and an SMD interface, alarm/clock, and a lot of memory. I'd be interested in a memory card, maybe a basic IO, on the faint chance someone visits them, and gets a bargain on the whole box, and wants to part it out. Clearly it was chopped from some ssytem, there appears to be no cables etc. While it's missing peripherals, if someone could scrounge up a disk or floppy system it would be a decent 1970's-era mini. There's no shortage of software for it. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 16 14:58:03 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:58:03 -0000 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > But a "business" machine like a VAX could be cute too. > Especially if it has a front panel with lots of lights and > switches ? It has a keyswitch (and maybe a reset button). There's a TK70 too. > I tried to find photos on the web, but no quick success. http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=vax+6000&hl=en All VAX 6000 cabs look pretty much the same. If only I had the room ... ... and the power :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 15:03:34 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:03:34 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > > On a related note...any special concerns on an initial powerup of a > > > TU-56 that has not been turned on for possibly 5+ years....?? > > > > Any solid DC supplies that match the requirements of the TC11/TU56 > > should be fine. The TU56 on my 8-e has a non-DEC supply and it seems to > > work fine. > > Guy said: > > Other than the usual caution about capacitors in power supplies.... > > Since I am fairly new to the hardware end of this stuff and just started > messing with it less about 8 or 9 months ago, can you give me > a little primer on the caution of capacitors in power supplies? I am aware of the risk of shock because they can hold a charge for a while until they are discharged, but are there other things that I need to be cautious of? Can't they leak and ruin things, just like a battery? What else should we look out for related to the power supplies? Ashley From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 16 15:11:48 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:11:48 -0600 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <4238A114.2010700@mdrconsult.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > >>But a "business" machine like a VAX could be cute too. >>Especially if it has a front panel with lots of lights and >>switches ? > > > It has a keyswitch (and maybe a reset button). There's a > TK70 too. > > >>I tried to find photos on the web, but no quick success. > > > http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=vax+6000&hl=en > > All VAX 6000 cabs look pretty much the same. No, there's a rackmount version, too. Doc From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 16 15:12:22 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:12:22 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: From: "Guy Sotomayor" > Other than the usual caution about capacitors in power supplies, the > TU56 does suffer from deterioration of the motor run capacitors (these > are quite different than motor start caps). The often need to be > replaced and are fairly expensive (I seem to recall that mine were > $25/ea and there are 4). They are also a bit difficult to find. > > If anyone has any other suggestions (or sources for motor run caps), I'd > be interested too. I used a Vanguard BC-108 (108-130mfd 110-125VAC) to replace one of mine that had leaked. They shouldn't be hard to find. The physical form factor is different (smaller), so they don't look like the original equipment, though. I just wrapped it in tape until the diameter was sufficient for the original clamp :-). Vince From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 15:22:12 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:22:12 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: <4238A114.2010700@mdrconsult.com> References: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <4238A114.2010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:11:48 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > All VAX 6000 cabs look pretty much the same. > > No, there's a rackmount version, too. There is another version that I once saw on ebay. It has vax boards installed in a compact aluminum frame that was supposed to be used on one military plane. vax, 9000 From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Mar 16 15:25:14 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:25:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > > I am aware of the risk of shock because they can hold a charge for > a while until they are discharged, but are there other things that I > need to be cautious of? Can't they leak and ruin things, just like a > battery? What else should we look out for related to the power > supplies? Apart from the shock (and dangerous sudden-hi-energy discharge) risks - one thing to be aware of when 'bringing up' large analog power supplies is the condition where the filter capacitor(s), or other big electrolytic device, develops and internal short, or loses it's chemical polarization, and the esuing thermal rise causes the case to burst. Most big caps have built-in rupture vents, or a strategic 'crease' in the aluminum to keep this from becoming an explosion - but I have been the unfortunate recipient of more than one suddenly-exploding capacitor. Not counting the sheer terror of having something go BANG! right next to you, the larger units can store considerable energy, both pressure and electrical, and I've seen them do a lot of damage, especially the ones mounted upside-down, which have a tendency to launch off the chassis like a mortar shell and poke holes in walls. Then there's the hideous mess that all the 'guts' of the cap makes when they explode and puke up all over everything. So the moral of the story is to bring a long-dormant power supply up slowly, using a variac and loads, and to be vigilant for any signs of cap leakage, swelling, getting suddenly warm, or hissing sounds coming from one. Cheers John From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 16 15:25:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:25:55 -0800 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> Message-ID: > The seller ("gold-snipper") is a recycler in Portland OR, maybe > someone could contact them and go visit? "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no knowledge of Nova H/W. Vince From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 15:26:58 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:26:58 -0500 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: References: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <4238A114.2010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:22:12 -0500, 9000 VAX wrote: > > There is another version that I once saw on ebay. It has vax boards > installed in a compact aluminum frame that was supposed to be used on > one military plane. Sorry it might be a smaller Qbus vax, but not likely a 6000. > > vax, 9000 > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 16 15:28:19 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:28:19 -0600 Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: References: <002601c52a6a$d9b03170$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <4238A114.2010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4238A4F3.9020903@mdrconsult.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:11:48 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>>All VAX 6000 cabs look pretty much the same. >> >> No, there's a rackmount version, too. > > > There is another version that I once saw on ebay. It has vax boards > installed in a compact aluminum frame that was supposed to be used on > one military plane. I thought I had taken them down, but here are a couple of snapshots of the rackmount cabinet. http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k.jpg.html http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k_2.jpg.html I gave it to a friend who wanted it a lot more than I did. Doc From dan at marcal.com Wed Mar 16 10:17:16 2005 From: dan at marcal.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:17:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: I have a VAX 6400 that I don't want anymore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503161617.j2GGHGbJ002306@sun.marcal.com> Hi Jim, > Know anyone interested? It's in the Chicago area. I expect you'll get several responses, including mine. Whereabouts in Chicagoland is it, and what kind of shape is it in? Cheers, Dan From gsarno at nortel.com Wed Mar 16 11:01:33 2005 From: gsarno at nortel.com (Giuseppe Sarno) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:01:33 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. Message-ID: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218854CDC@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the serial/parallel port ? I have seen some info at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002642.html but I couldn't find more. Thanks. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Mar 16 15:35:49 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:35:49 +0100 Subject: Hardware offer: intellec mds References: <20050316120331.GX19265@lug-owl.de> <20050316182107.GI19265@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <004601c52a70$1f388a30$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jan-Benedict Glaw" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Hardware offer: intellec mds On Wed, 2005-03-16 13:03:31 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote in message <20050316120331.GX19265 at lug-owl.de>: > So basically, here's an intellec mds, untested, available in Bielefeld, > Germany, for free (excl. shipping costs). If anybody wants to get it, > please drop me an email. Some question for the aftermath, which I'd better had prepared beforehand. How is hardware transfer "normally" done on this list? -- I would try to find out which one of the bidders is going to make proper use of it. "Proper use" is not easily defineds, you should ask the bidder what he is going to use it for. Then it is up to you Nico From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 15:39:26 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:26 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question Message-ID: <44a272944a919b.44a919b44a2729@optonline.net> > So the moral of the story is to bring a long-dormant power > supply up slowly, using a variac and loads, and to be vigilant > for any signs of cap leakage, swelling, getting suddenly warm, > or hissing sounds coming from one. > The trick here being that the "HUGE" cap's are NOT part of a powersupply per se [which is external to the unit], but rather are part of the internal electronics [motor control]. From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 15:44:53 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:44:53 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Apart from the shock (and dangerous sudden-hi-energy discharge) risks - > one thing to be aware of when 'bringing up' large analog power supplies is > the condition where the filter capacitor(s), or other big electrolytic > device, develops and internal short, or loses it's chemical polarization, > and the esuing thermal rise causes the case to burst. Most big caps have > built-in rupture vents, or a strategic 'crease' in the aluminum to keep > this from becoming an explosion - but I have been the unfortunate > recipient of more than one suddenly-exploding capacitor. > > Not counting the sheer terror of having something go BANG! right next to > you, the larger units can store considerable energy, both pressure and > electrical, and I've seen them do a lot of damage, especially the ones > mounted upside-down, which have a tendency to launch off the chassis like > a mortar shell and poke holes in walls. > > Then there's the hideous mess that all the 'guts' of the cap makes when > they explode and puke up all over everything. > > > So the moral of the story is to bring a long-dormant power supply up > slowly, using a variac and loads, and to be vigilant for any signs of cap > leakage, swelling, getting suddenly warm, or hissing sounds coming from > one. John, Thanks for the vivid visual images! I suppose I've been lucky so far. Actually, most all of the stuff I've acquired has recently been powered on by someone else before it came into my hands, so if it was going to go BANG!, it probably would have done so before it came into my possession. I'd be interested in hearing any horror stories relating to exploding capacitors and more info on the proper caution that needs to be exercised when messing with old power supplies. Ashley From James at jdfogg.com Wed Mar 16 15:44:34 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:44:34 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DC0@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, > Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? > Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the > serial/parallel port ? Doesn't it have 8 inch diskette drives? From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 15:48:52 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:48:52 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. References: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218854CDC@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Message-ID: <011f01c52a71$f26d2f40$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, > Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? > Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the serial/parallel > port ? Try bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/820/ And thanks again to Al Kossow. What would we do without bitsavers? Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 16 16:00:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:00:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question Message-ID: <200503162200.OAA25505@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ashley Carder" > > >> > On a related note...any special concerns on an initial powerup of a >> > TU-56 that has not been turned on for possibly 5+ years....?? >> >> Any solid DC supplies that match the requirements of the TC11/TU56 >> should be fine. The TU56 on my 8-e has a non-DEC supply and it seems to >> work fine. > >Guy said: >> Other than the usual caution about capacitors in power supplies.... > >Since I am fairly new to the hardware end of this stuff and just started >messing with it less about 8 or 9 months ago, can you give me >a little primer on the caution of capacitors in power supplies? > >Ashley Hi Ashley There is an issue with dry tantalum capacitors blowing up. As far as I know, there is nothing that can be done other than hitting them with the power and replacing those that blow. It helps to have a power supply that can handle a momentary shorts or that is fused so it doesn't damage the supply. Wet electrolytics have a problem in that they tend to degrade over time. During normal running, they produce a small amount of gas that is intended to diffuse through the seal. This is a normal part of maintaining the capacitor. The problem is that when you turn one on that has been sitting for a few years, it can do one of two things. One is that it will reform the capacitor but out gas fast enough to burst the seal. This will cause total failure after a short period of time because of evaporated electrolyte. The next is that it will over heat and short. It will usually burst the seal as well. Not much to do here other than replace. One can reform old electrolytics that are still sealed by bringing the voltage up slowly. Here is where many have different opinions. Some say to use a variac and bring the voltage up slowly over many hours to days. I don't like this method but have used it successfully in the past. I prefer connecting the capacitors ( removed from the curcuit ) to a limiting source and allowing the voltage to float up as the capacitor forms. This is a good way to deal with capacitors that are screw mounted. I use a limited source that will allow no more than 5 to 10 ma or 1/4w ( which ever is first depending on voltage for larger capacitors ). Some computer grade capacitors are very leaky when good and may require more than 10 ma but I find few will recover with much more leakage. One should also take care with switching supplies. Many supplies will blow up if the input voltage is below the specified operating range for any length of time. Some switchers will do OK if there is no load and the input is low while some will go crazy with no load. For switchers you really have to form the capacitors by disconnecting and not using a variac. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 16:17:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> Message-ID: <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Scott wrote: > The phenomenon of failure from the outside in has interesting > possibilities- > have software write a known pattern in the outermost section of the disc > and > pop up a warning when it starts to deteriorate. Hopefully this would give > enough time to move data to another disk. It doesn't have to be a known pattern. There's so much error correction going on that as soon as you start detecting read errors (i.e., so many errors that the error correction fails), you know you've got problems. Writing all zeros, all ones, alternating bits or bytes, or random bits would all work equally well for this test, and if they read at all, there's no point in comparing the data to known values. The reason all zeros or all ones is a reasonable test is that the data goes through a scrambling process and is recorded with a DC-free code. No matter what your write, there ends up being a mix of pit lengths. (You could construct a pathological case, but it would actually be quite hard to do so and to write it with any guarantee that it comes out the way you expect.) Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 16:24:28 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:24:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Belay that last request... HHC info. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050316005257.0532a370@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050316005257.0532a370@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <58850.64.139.41.130.1111011868.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Roger wrote: > 2) I read the HHC Basic eprom, it appears to have read good. Opening up > the .bin file in goatpad [ erm; notepad ] I found the 2-letter error > prefixen, the Microsoft Basic copyright thingy, and a reference to: > NEIL K & HENRY L ... I'm guessing these are the programmers; or at > least the guys who ported it over to the HHC. Yes, almost certainly the ones that ported it. The core BASIC interpreter is almost certainly the same one used in the PET, AIM, Apple II, OSI, and all the other 6502 systems that ran MS BASIC. Neil K. is probably Neil Konzen. He ported CP/M to the Microsoft Softcard for the Apple II, and wrote the other system software for that. Later he was the technical lead for MS's Macintosh software. I don't have any guess for Henry L. Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 16 16:25:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question Message-ID: <200503162225.OAA25544@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ashley Carder" ---snip--- > >I'd be interested in hearing any horror stories relating to exploding >capacitors and more info on the proper caution that needs to be >exercised when messing with old power supplies. > >Ashley > > Hi When I used to work for Intel, we'd do incoming inspection on powersupplies. We had a box called the coffin that we'd power them up in. I'd never been at the test location when one went off but there were enough dents in the box from the inside to attest to the explosive forces. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Mar 16 16:37:41 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:37:41 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DC0@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <001e01c52a78$c8264300$c33dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "James Fogg" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 3:44 PM >> Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, >> Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? >> Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the >> serial/parallel port ? > > Doesn't it have 8 inch diskette drives? It could use either 8" or 5.25", it came with a single-density controller but there were a number of third party double-density upgrades. The 820 is a clone of the bigboard. I don't have any of Xerox's docs but I just got a huge pile of Micro-Cornucopia mags that have a lot of info on the 820. It is on my to be scanned pile which is large. Contact me off-list and I'll see if I can help. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 16:51:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:51:41 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <53737.64.139.41.130.1110933039.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <53737.64.139.41.130.1110933039.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050316175141.164f5dc7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:30:39 -0800 (PST) "Eric Smith" wrote: > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem > and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort > in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your own software working > for one family, that family would have long since been discontinued. > > Eric I would suspect that while there might be hundreds of thousands of man hours, that there just can't possible be hundreds of thousands of man *years* involved. Hundreds of thousands of man years is just frightening to think about. Maybe something like the Apollo mission. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 16 16:47:40 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:47:40 GMT Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: "John A. Dundas III" "Re: RQDX3 on an 11/23?" (Mar 16, 12:46) References: <4a6b8559f4ddd73d1813c5703b352c4d@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <10503162247.ZM15267@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 16 2005, 12:46, John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 2:05 PM -0500 3/16/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >You can literally pull the CPU and/or memory from a MicroVAX I/II and > >drop in a KDF11 or KDJ11 and required memory, and *bam* - a > >MicroPDP... > > I've done the J-11 <--> uVaxII exchange with pretty good success. > Having the Console Panel (in the back, CK-KA630-A) for the uVax seems > to be a necessity; not needed for the J-11. > > I have not tried the F-11 in a generic BA23, though I would expect it > to work. Will the J-11 correctly mate with the RUN/START/drive lock > panel in the front? How is that best handled without an actual 11/23 > or 11/23+ front panel? The DC_OK/RUN/START/HALT and drives LED/switch panel on the front is the same for all the microVAX and microPDP-11 series in a BA23. Only the badges get changed (they unclip). The DC OK and RUN LEDs, and the HALT and RESTART switches, connect directly to the backplane, and the drive switches/LEDs connect to the signal distribution board, which in turn would be connected to the RQDXn by a 50-way ribbon cable. The console panel on the back for the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-F is different to the microVAX one, of course. It has a 2-digit display, a DB25M instead of a DE9F, and only one rotary switch. Interestingly, it uses the same connectors and cables, so maybe it would work. The important bit would be the SLU cable, which is the 10-way ribbon. I expect that's the same, though I've never tried it. You can set the console baud rate, word size and parity with the DIP switches on the KDx11-B itself. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 16 16:53:06 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:53:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <200503162301.SAA27771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Thanks for the vivid visual images! > I'd be interested in hearing any horror stories relating to exploding > capacitors and more info on the proper caution that needs to be > exercised when messing with old power supplies. Well, I've never had a cap in a power supply go bang. But I did once put together a circuit and carelessly use a cap rated for about half the expected voltage - I was checking only the capacitance, my bad. It was working fine, only I started hearing this funny hissing noise. Just as I was deciding I should find out what was hissing, it blew. It was a small cap - somewhere in the 200?F/6V range - and didn't damage anything else, though it did spread a film of something unpleasantly oily over everything within a foot or so. There was also a rather impressive cloud of what looked like grey smoke but which I suspect was actually the oily substance. Based on what happened to that tiny one, I definitely would not want to be around one of the big ones going bang. That cap had only a couple of millicoulombs in it, and it still made an impressive enough bang that I was glad I was multiple feet away; one holding more like a coulomb or two I would much rather be in the other room for. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "cap pistol". :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 16 17:03:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:03:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. Message-ID: <200503162303.PAA25596@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Giuseppe Sarno" > >Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, >Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? >Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the serial/parallel >port ? > >I have seen some info at >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002642.html > but >I couldn't find more. > >Thanks. > Hi You didn't mention if you have a disk that boots and has PIP under CP/M on it. If you do, you can transfer information as ASCII like a BASIC source program or even transfer .COM files by first converting them to .HEX files and then using DDT on the 820 to move them to .COM files. If you are attempting to bootstrap with no disk, you'll have to check with others. One may be able to do it if it has a built in debug monitor. Of course, on can always write some of ones own code and replace one of the internal EPROMs. It is not as impossible as it sounds. You just have to explore a little. Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 17:04:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:04:51 -0500 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <888dc24b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <888dc24b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20050316180451.5f03e591.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:27:12 GMT Philip Pemberton wrote: > . . . I had a CMC-made "unbranded" blank that > delaminated in a 24x CD-ROM drive, taking the drive on a one-way trip > to silicon heaven. Truly awful discs. > Sometimes I wonder if the high-speed CD-ROM drives we all enjoy now are always as good as they're thought to be. I remember my first experience with a > 4x drive. I was used to the older drives which spin slower, and the new fast drive 'spun up' like there was a big noisy machine (there was) inside the PC Case. Perhaps there should be effort spent on a more reliable grade of CD-ROM technology that emphasizes reliability and long term life over rip-roaring speed. I can't help but think that spinning your important archival CDs at a 2x reading speed would be easier on them than the screaming fast rate most are read at now. Would the CMC-made "unbranded" blank have delaminated in a 2x drive? Probably not. Not that the particular CMC media should be 'championed' in any way, but spinning things faster is bound to accelerate deterioriation. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 16 17:02:03 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:02:03 -0800 Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 14:17 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Scott wrote: > > The phenomenon of failure from the outside in has interesting > > possibilities- > > have software write a known pattern in the outermost section of the disc > > and > > pop up a warning when it starts to deteriorate. Hopefully this would give > > enough time to move data to another disk. > > It doesn't have to be a known pattern. There's so much error correction > going on that as soon as you start detecting read errors (i.e., so many > errors that the error correction fails), you know you've got problems. > Writing all zeros, all ones, alternating bits or bytes, or random bits > would all work equally well for this test, and if they read at all, there's > no point in comparing the data to known values. > > The reason all zeros or all ones is a reasonable test is that the data > goes through a scrambling process and is recorded with a DC-free code. > No matter what your write, there ends up being a mix of pit lengths. > (You could construct a pathological case, but it would actually be > quite hard to do so and to write it with any guarantee that it comes > out the way you expect.) Actually you want to find patterns (and they do exist) that are pathological (ie worst case) for the encoder/decoder *and* for the error correction being used. Data CDROMs use an 8-14 encoding and 2 CIRSC's (Cross Interleaved Reed Soloman Codes) for error correction. An aspect of this is that the error correction that is chosen is (usually) based on the type and frequency of errors you expect (ie single random bits, runs of bad bits, etc). Things get dicey when the errors being encountered aren't what the original design anticipated. -- TTFN - Guy From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 17:10:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teamwork, and PDP-1 status (was Re: TU56 restoration) In-Reply-To: <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <65027.64.139.41.130.1111014639.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ashley wrote: > Yes, it is more fun (and educational!) if more than one person is working > on the same project. Sharing knowledge, successes, and failures is a > good thing. Definitely! I've found the team work on the PDP-1 project to be very rewarding. Previously Mike and I tried to get a PDP-11/70 working on our own, and although we did make a fair amount of progress (before his house burned down), it was very slow going. The PDP-1 is in many regards a more difficult machine to work on, yet the combination of skills and interests of the team make the project work much better. We still have sometimes gotten stuck on "grunt work", like the months we spent on reforming all the capacitors, but at times we've made very rapid progress. Latest PDP-1 status: We are now trying to repair a memory fault. When we first ran the memory diagnostics, all 12K worked. Now one 4K bank has problems. We think we've identified the faulty component, so next week we'll work on it. I'm probably going to have to write a different memory diagnostic; the one DEC supplied has to be loaded into the same 4K bank it is testing, which was required for it to work on 4K machines but is rather suboptimal otherwise. The Spacewar control boxes Ken built (with some minor help and/or hindrance from me) mostly worked OK last week, but the hyperspace buttons had a strange interaction with other buttons on both control boxes. The hyperspace inputs on the original cable from the PDP-1 were wired using diodes at the PDP-1 end so that the hyperspace buttons would activate both the rotate left and rotate right bits, which is how the software detects it (rather than using a distinct bit position). It appears that those diodes weren't working well (!), so Ken put 1N4148 diodes in the control boxes to serve the same function, and left the dedicated hyperspace control line open, and that seems to work better. There was some controversy over whether the control boxes should be wired to prevent manually pressing the rotate left and right buttons simultaneously from activating hyperspace. Some players don't like that because they do it accidentally when not meaning to enter hyperspace; I like it as a deliberate way to do so. At Peter Samson's suggestion, Ken rewired the rotates so that the CCW rotate switch is in series with the normally closed contact of the CW rotate, so that if you press both, CW takes precedence. We found a really nice display demo called "SNOWFLAKE", which produces hypnotic kaleidoscope-like images with sixfold symmetry (hence the name). Our initial attempts to use the light pen were unsuccessful. It is possible that this was just due to the sensitivity adjustment (a knob on the underside of the Type 30 CRT housing) being too low; at the time we didn't think to try to adjust it. We also need to test the programmatic intensity control, and the character generator. We don't have any diagnositics for the character generator, so I'll write something for that. Possibly I might use that as the status display for the new memory diagnostic. Next week we'll also continue trying to get the typewriter working again. There were mechanical faults which we believe are fixed, but then electrical issues cropped up. We expect the new belt for the BRPE paper tape punch to arrive next month, and it will be nice to get that going. I guess it's amazing that any of this 40-year-old stuff works at all, and not too surprising that various components are now failing. We're at the far end of the bathtub curve. We're hoping that the condition stabilizes soon. We have not yet run the system on voltage margins, which should help identify components that are likely to fail soon. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 16 17:08:04 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:08:04 GMT Subject: RQDX3 on an 11/23? In-Reply-To: Pete Turnbull "Re: RQDX3 on an 11/23?" (Mar 16, 8:46) References: <42379A9D.7000604@compsys.to> <10503160846.ZM13517@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10503162308.ZM15315@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 16 2005, 8:46, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 15 2005, 23:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I have never used an RQDX3 except in a BA23 or BA123, but the schemes > > I've seen described in this thread to manufacture a direct > RQDX3->hard > > drive should all work. > It's certainly easier and likely neater to use the real thing, if you > have it. But if you want to "roll your" own, I already published my > distribution board layout and the RQDXn pinout, and later today I'll > put the M9058 RQDX distribution board layout and circuit, and the > circuit diagram for the Write-Protect/Ready switch panel up as well. OK, done. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ DU.COR patch for DU.MAC to use RQDX3 under RT-11 V5.01 DUX.TXT explanation of above DistrOVL.ps component overlay for my RQDX distribution board DistrPCB.ps PCB layout artwork for above M9058_layout.ps component overlay for M9058 distr.board in BA123 M9058_schematic.ps schematic diagram for M9058 RQDXn_LEDs_switches.ps schematic of the WR.PROT + READY switches/LEDs RQDXn_pinout.ps list of pins and signal descriptions for RQDXn RX50_substitute.ps notes on using floppy drives other than RX50 The first two are flat-ASCII; all the files with ".ps" extensions are PostScript. If you don't have a PostScript viewer (eg Ghostscript or one of the Corel packages), you can send them straight to a PostScript printer. The ROM images for RQDX1, RQDX2, and RQDX3 are in http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ See the file "00ReadMe" for information, "ROMlist" for a table of part-numbers/module-numbers/versions, and "Wanted!" for, well, "wanted" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 17:17:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:17:20 -0500 Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <20050314181717.M68036@shell.lmi.net> References: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> <20050314181717.M68036@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050316181720.6122a4dc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:18:58 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > Performance tends to follow Moore's law. > But "need" for performance follows Boyle's law, > (particularly with MS software) > and usually exceeds what is conveniently available. > > I used to agree with this, that 'MS software' is more suceptible to 'featuritis' and the 'bloat' that bogs down old machines. There was for a long time the example of Linux as an OS that 'made better use of older hardware' by being cleanly designed and more tightly optimized. These days the bloat seems to have crept into the 'alternatives to Microsoft' in depressing ways that make it harder all the time to blame Microsoft. Office 2000 runs much smoother (and in a nominally usable fashion) on my old 486 laptop than the 'OpenOffice' alternative. The new 'Free' desktops bring old hardware to it's knees. I suspect it's all the C++ and suboptimal 'modern coding techniques' which foist off a LOT of the work to the hardware. I just can't feel honest anymore subscribing to a 'blame Microsoft' attitude. Of course, the proper approach is to run something clean and tight like NetBSD on the 486 laptop with a simple environment like good old tab window manager (now old enough to be on topic here!), and use the Classic UNIX writing/typesetting/composition tools. From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Mar 16 17:16:53 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:16:53 -0600 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050316171205.0ba48740@localhost> I replaced a electrolytic cap on a dead dog simple diode bridge, cap, and resistor PC board power supply once. There was an inductor on the board too, as I recall. Anyhow, I somehow managed to look at the polarity markings on the new cap twice and STILL solder it in backwards. It was marked on the negative side, where the old one had plus signs on the positive side. Turned it on and BANG! the aluminum cap hit the ceiling above the bench and squashed itself flat. There was confetti all over the place. If I had been leaning over it, you'd be callin' me one eye'd Jack. At 04:44 PM 3/16/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > Apart from the shock (and dangerous sudden-hi-energy discharge) risks - > > one thing to be aware of when 'bringing up' large analog power supplies is > > the condition where the filter capacitor(s), or other big electrolytic > > device, develops and internal short, or loses it's chemical polarization, > > and the esuing thermal rise causes the case to burst. Most big caps have > > built-in rupture vents, or a strategic 'crease' in the aluminum to keep > > this from becoming an explosion - but I have been the unfortunate > > recipient of more than one suddenly-exploding capacitor. > > > > Not counting the sheer terror of having something go BANG! right > next to > > you, the larger units can store considerable energy, both pressure and > > electrical, and I've seen them do a lot of damage, especially the ones > > mounted upside-down, which have a tendency to launch off the chassis like > > a mortar shell and poke holes in walls. > > > > Then there's the hideous mess that all the 'guts' of the cap makes when > > they explode and puke up all over everything. > > > > > > So the moral of the story is to bring a long-dormant power supply up > > slowly, using a variac and loads, and to be vigilant for any signs of cap > > leakage, swelling, getting suddenly warm, or hissing sounds coming from > > one. > >John, > >Thanks for the vivid visual images! I suppose I've been lucky so far. >Actually, most all of the stuff I've acquired has recently been powered on >by someone else before it came into my hands, so if it was going to go >BANG!, it probably would have done so before it came into my >possession. > >I'd be interested in hearing any horror stories relating to exploding >capacitors and more info on the proper caution that needs to be >exercised when messing with old power supplies. > >Ashley [Mind] It stands to the everlasting credit of science that by acting on the human mind it has overcome man's insecurity before himself and before nature. --Albert Einstein --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From djg at drs-c4i.com Wed Mar 16 17:36:48 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:36:48 -0500 Subject: TU56 restoration Message-ID: <200503162336.j2GName25589@drs-c4i.com> You will probably need to pull the hubs and clean and lubricate the spring loaded friction bushing behind the hubs. If you turn it by hand and it is quite stiff or springs back after you release the hub then they need cleaning. Most of the hubs are screws in the plastic so a easy to strip when tightining so don't over do it. They may come pre stripped. The manual goes into how to put the hubs on. Try somewhat tight and if they slip tighten some more. The screws are serrated head so may need to be replaced if slipping and worn. A little slipping won't hurt for initial testing but will wear the shaft long term. I used some epoxy thread repair material since some of mine were prestripped. It sort of worked but wasn't really strong enough. Putting in a helicoil might be better but I didn't go that far. The tape motion can be tested in local mode and the manual has adjustments for clean stopping. When no tape in installed both reels should turn in opposite directions. With a tape on it should not turn until you hit forward or backward. The lights may be burned out. They were sold as assemblies but they are a custom order now. You can open them up and carefully solder in a new bulb inside. I bought a couple similar bulbs from Mouser and picked the one I liked. Since mine had no good bulbs I can't say what was the closest match. The capacitors have been discussed. The 4 motor capacitors are obvious if they are going, junk will be coming out the vent. Altough after shipping it may of all broken loose. The power supply in the back also has a big capacitor in it for the motor drive voltage (36V?). It wouldn't hurt to reform that one. I haven't always reformed the capacitors most of the time its powered up ok but did have them fail in one item. I use the current limited supply method. Also note you provide either 5V or 10V, not both. I have a video of operation of my unit online if you need to see what it looks like running. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. Have any PDP-8 stuff you're willing to part with? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 16:35:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:35:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Mar 15, 5 08:51:17 am Message-ID: > Definitely get the IDC connectors, even if you have to mail order them. > Soldering 50 conductor ribbon cable is not my idea of fun. Another tip ; If, as here, you're making a cable with swapped-round connections, get the 'rainbow' multi-coloured cable, not the grey stuff. Being able to recognise wire 15 (it's the second green one) rather than counting, and probalby miscounting, for each one, is well worth the extra cost of the rainbow cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 16:48:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:48:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <53737.64.139.41.130.1110933039.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 15, 5 04:30:39 pm Message-ID: > Tony wrote: > > The software may be 'free', > > I specifically didn't use that word because it definitely is not > "Free Software". Agreed. > > > but the machine to run it on, and the OS to > > run it under, most certainly aren't. > > I didn't pay any money for the Linux OS I run it on. And it will I didn't realise there was a linux version out now. I've only ever seen Windows versions... > run (perhaps slowly) on cast-off Pentium machines that people simply > throw away. For the time, I have never been offered a Pentium machine. In fact I've never been offered a PC more powerful than a 286. On the other hand, all 4 of my PERQs, most of my PDP11s, most of my HP desktops, etc were free... > > When DECUS gives you a "free" C compiler for the PDP-11, do you > complain about having to pay for the PDP-11 computer and the > RT11 operating system? No, but there's a big different. The only real use for a PDP11 C compiler is to program PDP11s. If you don't have a PDP11, you probably don't want a C compiler for it. This is not the case for FPGA development tools (you could want to program an FPGA without owning any specific type of computer). And another difference was that if I want to program in C, I have a large choice of possible machines. I could use DECUS C on a PDP11. I could use GCC on just about anything. I could even try writing my own compiler (the C standard is available, albeit most certainly not free, the programming specs for many computers are available). But if I want to use these FPGAs, I have to use the manufacturer's software on their choice of computers. > > > And I do have an objection to > > trusting my design to a piece of binary-only software that I have no easy > > way of checking if it's doing the right thing > > The Xilinx FPGA Editor lets you see *exactly* how the resulting logic > is wired in the device. However, unfortunately the FPGA Editor is not > included in the no-charge dowloadable software; it's only in the paid > version, which costs US$500 and up. Having done battle with older Xilinx chips (and hated every minute of it! [1]), I found the editor to be absolutely essential to undo the damage done by the rest of the software. If that's not included, then IMHO the package is worthless for serious work. [1] This was about 10 years ago, on a high-spec PC for the time. A compilation cycle took _overnight_. Which meant that if I made a small change to the design I couldn't test if until the next morning. I could have hand-wired the darn design quicker. > > > (it's very difficult to be > > sure a CPLD or FPGA is doing the right thing under _all_ conditions). > > It's difficult to tell whether any collection of thousands, tens of > thousands, or hundreds of thousands of gates are doing the right thing > under all conditions, regardless of whether they're in an FPGA, or a > bunch of 7400 NAND gates you've wire-wrapped. In fact, it's > essentially impossible. But it's a darn sight easier if you can probe 'internal' signals... > > > I would mind if they'd properly document the chips so I could write my > > one CAD software if I wanted to. But they don't. AFAIK there is no 100% > > documented CPLD or FPGA available (100% documented meaning you can go > > from design to chip without proprietary software or a proprietary > > programmer). > > There are plenty of completely documented CPLDs, and no completely > documented FPGAs. You're saying there's a CPLD that I can program without using a single piece of proprietary software or a proprietary programmmer (In other words, I can start from my schematic/logic equations, turn it into the programming data, by hand if need be, and then get that into the chip without having to use anything undocuemtned)? Can you please tell me some familes/companies? > > Xilinx did completely document one FPGA family (XC5200? XC6200? I've > forgotten). It didn't sell well, so they discontinued it. XC6200 (there were going to be at least 2 chips the XC6216 and the XC6264). I got the data sheets and connected the UK distributors. By the time they thought they could get me some 'sample quantity' chips, the darn things had been discontinued. That's why I never used them/ > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem > and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort Sure. I am not saying I want to write the tools myself, but if the specs were available, I am sure some clever programmers would start writing open-sourcce versions (as has happened with so many other things!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 16:51:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:51:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <42378004.7000608@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 15, 5 06:38:28 pm Message-ID: > > I have never seen a modern PC without a serial port but if USB is > > absolutely required there are USB to serial adapters. > > I have 2 PCs and 4 Macs without serial ports. But presumably they do have USB ports, and as was just said, you can get USB (host) to RS232 (device) converters. The reverse is not, however, true. I have around 200 computers here. Over half of them have RS232 ports, many of the rest could have them fitted (but I don't have the right expansion card yet, and haven't got round to building something), or have ports that can trivially be converted to RS232 (e.g. 20mA current loop serial). Not one of them has a USB port, or AFAIK can take a USB port. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 17:19:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:19:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems In-Reply-To: <20050316160348.72B473BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Mar 16, 5 11:03:48 am Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > I have returned to my HP9915B that blows its fuse as soon as you > power it up. I am going to make some assumptions : 1) The fuse holds if you unplug the transformer connector from J6 on the mainboard (if not, then you've got shorted turns in the transformer or something like that. 2) You have schemaitcs. I only have the 9915A ones, which I think I gave you a copy of. If not, you can get them (reverse-engineered as always) from HPCC. > > I followed Tony's advice and checked the two large capacitors (C46 > and C58), and the PIC645 and they are all OK. I then checked the > U30 (3524) in the chopper sense circuit and its OK as well. > > I checked the parts after removing them from the PCB to ensure that > there was no interference by other components. > > So now I am really at a loss and wonder if anybody has any ideas. OK, what I'd do next : Pull JP6, JP3, JP5 (disconnect the main PSU outputs from the logic). Fuse still fails? Check CR19 (1N5401, connected form pin 1 on T2 to the +ve side of C46. If that's shorted, the crowbar wull necessarily fire and blow the fuse. While you're about it, check Q4 (crowbar SCR) and the zener connected to its gate. You'd feel really stupid if a short in the crowbar was the cause of all this. Fuse still blows? Remove the diode between pin 6 of T2 and the -12V line and the diode between pin 4 of T2 and the V+ line (RH side of sheet 1 of my CPU board schematic). With those lifted, the supply is reduced to a simple 12V one driving no load. If the fuse will hold now, I'd supsect (a) a short in one of the output regulators _and_ (b) a problem with the current sense circuit (round U31, LM311). Do you have an adjustable bench supply? If so, remove the transformer connector from J6, conenct the supply across C46, and slowly ramp it up. See what the +12VH output does (across C58). Does it just track the input, even when the input is just over 12V? Is U30 oscillating at all (look at TP2)? You removed Q5 (the PIC 645 chopper). Did the fuse hold with that out? If not, then you know there's a short either in the crowbar, or between the windings of T1 (current sense transformer), or CR19, but you should have checked that by now. If the fuse will hold with Q5 out, you could see if U30 is oscillating. Provide a temporary pull-up to TP2 (9V battery and resistor?), do you get drive pulses here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 16:59:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:59:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050316022626.D6FF373029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 15, 5 09:26:25 pm Message-ID: > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. -tony From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Mar 16 17:44:07 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:44:07 -0600 Subject: Teamwork, and PDP-1 status (was Re: TU56 restoration) In-Reply-To: <65027.64.139.41.130.1111014639.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050316173602.02460038@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 03:10 PM 3/16/2005 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: >Ashley wrote: > > Yes, it is more fun (and educational!) if more than one person is working > > on the same project. Sharing knowledge, successes, and failures is a > > good thing. > >Definitely! I've found the team work on the PDP-1 project to be very >rewarding. Previously Mike and I tried to get a PDP-11/70 working on >our own, and although we did make a fair amount of progress (before >his house burned down), it was very slow going. The PDP-1 is in many >regards a more difficult machine to work on, yet the combination of >skills and interests of the team make the project work much better. >We still have sometimes gotten stuck on "grunt work", like the months >we spent on reforming all the capacitors, but at times we've made >very rapid progress. > >Latest PDP-1 status: > >We are now trying to repair a memory fault. When we first ran the >memory diagnostics, all 12K worked. Now one 4K bank has problems. >We think we've identified the faulty component, so next week we'll >work on it. I'm probably going to have to write a different memory >diagnostic; the one DEC supplied has to be loaded into the same 4K >bank it is testing, which was required for it to work on 4K machines >but is rather suboptimal otherwise. > >The Spacewar control boxes Ken built (with some minor help and/or >hindrance from me) mostly worked OK last week, but the hyperspace >buttons had a strange interaction with other buttons on both >control boxes. The hyperspace inputs on the original cable from >the PDP-1 were wired using diodes at the PDP-1 end so that the >hyperspace buttons would activate both the rotate left and rotate >right bits, which is how the software detects it (rather than using >a distinct bit position). It appears that those diodes weren't >working well (!), so Ken put 1N4148 diodes in the control boxes >to serve the same function, and left the dedicated hyperspace control >line open, and that seems to work better. Do you have an original set of Spacewar control boxes? I'm curious if there was originally a dedicated hyperspace button or not. The control boxes on my Imlac never had a dedicated button and relied on the player to push both the turn buttons at the same time. I would think that you would want the controls to be historically accurate... >There was some controversy over whether the control boxes should >be wired to prevent manually pressing the rotate left and right >buttons simultaneously from activating hyperspace. Some players >don't like that because they do it accidentally when not meaning >to enter hyperspace; I like it as a deliberate way to do so. At >Peter Samson's suggestion, Ken rewired the rotates so that the CCW >rotate switch is in series with the normally closed contact of the >CW rotate, so that if you press both, CW takes precedence. > >We found a really nice display demo called "SNOWFLAKE", which >produces hypnotic kaleidoscope-like images with sixfold symmetry >(hence the name). > >Our initial attempts to use the light pen were unsuccessful. It >is possible that this was just due to the sensitivity adjustment >(a knob on the underside of the Type 30 CRT housing) being too low; >at the time we didn't think to try to adjust it. We also need to >test the programmatic intensity control, and the character generator. >We don't have any diagnositics for the character generator, so I'll >write something for that. Possibly I might use that as the status >display for the new memory diagnostic. > >Next week we'll also continue trying to get the typewriter working >again. There were mechanical faults which we believe are fixed, but >then electrical issues cropped up. > >We expect the new belt for the BRPE paper tape punch to arrive next >month, and it will be nice to get that going. > >I guess it's amazing that any of this 40-year-old stuff works at all, >and not too surprising that various components are now failing. We're >at the far end of the bathtub curve. We're hoping that the condition >stabilizes soon. We have not yet run the system on voltage margins, >which should help identify components that are likely to fail soon. Do you have any records which indicate the reliability of the machine from back in the day? I've always been under the impression that machines of that era were not terribly reliable and so perhaps expecting them to be so now is unrealistic. The progress that you all have made on the PDP-1 restoration is very impressive! I am totally jealous that I don't get a chance (due to geography) to visit and see the fun more frequently. I was out for VCF last year and did get to see the machine, which was quite a thrill. --tom >Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 16 17:45:19 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:45:19 GMT Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question" (Mar 16, 17:53) References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <200503162301.SAA27771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10503162345.ZM15464@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 16 2005, 17:53, der Mouse wrote: > Well, I've never had a cap in a power supply go bang. But I did once > put together a circuit and carelessly use a cap rated for about half > the expected voltage - I was checking only the capacitance, my bad. I've had two electrolytics fail spectacularly. The first was one that had just aged. It was a large PSU electrolytic in a valve[1] PA amplifier. I'd had the amp running several times, for an hour or so at a time, but on one occasion, it just blew. It made a loud hissing noise, and ejected a stream of white fumes. The second was a non-polarised electrolytic in an Atari monitor. The original had failed, so I looked through the catalogues for a similar type. The only one I found of the same capacitance and voltage claimed to have a suitably large ripple current capacity, but was quite a lot smaller than the original. I was a bit skeptical, but hey, technology moves on and capacitors get smaller every year, right? It lasted about 90 seconds. The bang was spectacular, and the amount of fibrous padding that came out of such a small space was really impressive. The ceiling still has the dent in it, but the monitor now has a polypropylene cap instead. [1] British for "vacuum tube" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 17:46:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:46:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> John Lawson wrote: > So the moral of the story is to bring a long-dormant power supply up > slowly, using a variac and loads, and to be vigilant for any signs of cap > leakage, swelling, getting suddenly warm, or hissing sounds coming from > one. Only for linear supplies! Don't do that with switchers. It's probably worthwhile to disconnect electrolytic capacitors and reform them separately first. There are tons of web pages about that, but the basic principle is to apply current-limited DC to it and slowly let it charge. If you apply rated voltage without current limiting, and it needs reformation, that's likely to cause it to fail catastrophically as John described. For a very overengineered approach to capacitor reformation which we used on the PDP-1 project, see the draft of the restoration procedure, the fifth document in this directory: http://pdp-1.org/Documents/RestorationProject/ For software that automates that procedure using an HP or Agilent programmable power supply, see: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/wrec/ Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 17:51:25 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:51:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050316175141.164f5dc7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <42342.64.139.41.130.1110847846.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <53737.64.139.41.130.1110933039.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <20050316175141.164f5dc7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <37839.64.139.41.130.1111017085.squirrel@64.139.41.130> I wrote: > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem > and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort > in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your own software working > for one family, that family would have long since been discontinued. Scott wrote: > I would suspect that while there might be hundreds of thousands of man > hours, that there just can't possible be hundreds of thousands of man > *years* involved. Yes, sorry, I meant man-hours. Only off by three orders of magnitude. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 17:53:54 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <20050316180451.5f03e591.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <888dc24b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20050316180451.5f03e591.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <38260.64.139.41.130.1111017234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Scott wrote: > Perhaps there should be effort spent > on a more reliable grade of CD-ROM technology that emphasizes > reliability and long term life over rip-roaring speed. As with all other PC components, there's effectively no market for higher quality. That is to say, not enough market to justify the engineering, manufacturing, and marketing efforts that would be necessary. Too many buyers are willing to put up with marginal junk. This is called a "trimuph of crapitalism". Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 17:58:04 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:58:04 +0000 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <200503162301.SAA27771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <200503162301.SAA27771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1111017484.14670.177.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 17:53 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > Thanks for the vivid visual images! > > > I'd be interested in hearing any horror stories relating to exploding > > capacitors and more info on the proper caution that needs to be > > exercised when messing with old power supplies. > > Well, I've never had a cap in a power supply go bang. Nor me, but a recent tale... I tried bringing that Sun 2/120 up the other day, and one of the big filter caps on the output side let go with an impressive hissing and *masses* of smoke. Funny thing was, it had been brought up after many years dormant on light load first (I didn't want to risk any of the boards in there!) and allowed to sit for a bit like that. Tested voltage levels and they were OK, so shut down and fitted all the boards. Back up again, all voltage levels OK. It ran like that for maybe 30 minutes, and only then did one of the big caps fail. Luckily they had safety valves otherwise it would have been a rather impressive explosion. Thing is, a variac wouldn't have helped at all - everything checked out. Things were up to temperature well before the cap blew, and there wasn't anything we did to put the PSU under any stress at the point when it broke (*unless* something died and shorted in one of the boards). So cautionary tale is not to stick your eyes near *any* big old caps in running equipment I suppose, no matter how good they are! I've replaced the dead cap (and its twin just to be sure) - the blown one failed as a dead short. Ran for about 30 mins on a dummy load and it was giving out useful voltages. This weekend I'll get to see if any boards in the machine were cooked by the failure, but I'm hopeful that the destroyed cap was the only casualty... cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 18:01:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:01:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Guy wrote: > Actually you want to find patterns (and they do exist) that are > pathological (ie worst case) for the encoder/decoder *and* for the error > correction being used. Basically by the time the data has been through three layers of ECC with interleave, the scrambler, and the EFM modulation, there's no way to guarantee that your pathological pattern will actually be pathological, because you don't know the initial phase relationship of any of the stages. In a carefully controlled lab environment with support from the design engineers you could do it, but as an end user of a black box (commercial CD/DVD writer) you can't, even armed with copies of the revelant standards, because you don't have enough visibility into the black box. By comparison, coming up with the pathological test cases for FM, MFM, M2FM, RLL (1,7) and (2,7), etc. is a piece of cake. For instance, one of the worst-case test patterns for MFM is the repeating byte sequence 6D, B6, DB (hexadecimal), which generates alternating short and long intervals between flux transitions with no medium length intervals. Though most test programs just repeated the first two bytes. Eric From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 16 18:09:28 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:09:28 -0000 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c52a85$9702d790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tony Duell wrote: > [1] This was about 10 years ago, on a high-spec PC for the > time. A compilation cycle took _overnight_. Which meant that > if I made a small change to the design I couldn't test if > until the next morning. I could have hand-wired the darn > design quicker. FWIW it still takes a good (8 hour) day to get one turnaround of the code for our FPGAs (and that's using high-spec PCs). This was true three years ago too, so I presume that, barring any great breakthrough, things will remain the same (at least for the complex sorts of FPGAs we[1] do). OTOH hand-wiring something equivalent would keep you occupied a bit longer than a day I should think :-) Antonio [1] I don't build FPGAs, I write the software to drive them and get some input into how they should behave. I still get to suffer the one-day turnaround though! -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 16 18:18:26 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay In-Reply-To: References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> Message-ID: <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: > "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no knowledge of > Nova H/W. Oh, I was just thinking generally. I don't know if he's absolutely convinced the thing is worth $600, or isn't sure and thought he'd try that, or just fishing, or what. It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit might illuminate that. And finally, if he becomes aware it's really not worth much money-wise (shipping alone will be $100), and will sell it to you 'cheap', you could probably part it out and recoup maybe $100 if you were so inclined. Like I said, I'd buy a memory or two, maybe another IO card. Unless you're a DG nut, or one lives near you, or doesn't mind paying for shipping, the chassis itself would probably get scrapped, sad to say. There's a regulated P.S. that slides into the chassis under the lowest board (CPU); there's a swing-out unreg supply in back; there's a backplane; there's the plastic front panel. Some "paddle card" plugs onto the backplane to the rear connectors. Those things could be removed and traded/sold off but for relatively peanuts, and shipping cheap (light). From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 18:19:22 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:19:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teamwork, and PDP-1 status (was Re: TU56 restoration) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050316173602.02460038@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <4343f16433f92a.433f92a4343f16@optonline.net> <006101c52a49$ee6e4370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <5.2.0.9.0.20050316173602.02460038@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <42268.64.139.41.130.1111018762.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tom asks: > Do you have an original set of Spacewar control boxes? I'm curious > if there was originally a dedicated hyperspace button or not. The The fate of the original boxes is unknown, but we have photos, drawings, and descriptions. There were two two-position lever switches, and a separate hyperspace button. However, various PDP-1 sites built their own boxes, which didn't necessarily resemble the "official" MIT ones. > Do you have any records which indicate the reliability of the machine > from back in the day? No. Since the components are now much older than their design life, they can be expected to have much lower MTBF than they used to. (MTBF is a statistical measure of failure rate while all specifications are met, including design life. The rated MTBF doesn't tell you anything about reliability beyond end of design life, though you can expect it to go *way* down.) Eric From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 16 18:27:11 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:27:11 -0800 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay [also found Removable disk parts] References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> Message-ID: <4238CEDF.A684830F@msm.umr.edu> same vendor has a 9766 disk pack in an auction as well. Another vendor, acpp, seems to have a lot of parts for those fixing either 10platter 300mb, or even the smaller capacity drives. They have media, heads and filters listed in auctions. also have website: http://www.computerfilters.com Jim Tom Jennings wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5173766870& > > It's quite overpriced, probably times 5 or times 10. I kindly and > tactfully wrote to the seller explaining this, but of course I'll > lack credibility with them. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 16 18:40:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:40:49 +0000 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <10503162345.ZM15464@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <010801c52a71$643e6950$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <200503162301.SAA27771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <10503162345.ZM15464@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1111020049.14670.184.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 23:45 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The second was a non-polarised electrolytic in an Atari monitor. The > original had failed, so I looked through the catalogues for a similar > type. The only one I found of the same capacitance and voltage claimed > to have a suitably large ripple current capacity, but was quite a lot > smaller than the original. I was a bit skeptical, but hey, technology > moves on and capacitors get smaller every year, right? That's bothering me for this Sun 2 where I've replaced the ageing PSU caps after one failed last week. The replacements (which I scrounged from the Colossus guys) are a heck of a lot smaller. But then it's a difference in technology of around 20 years... They've held together OK on a light load test, but it'll be interesting to see if they continue to do so under normal operating load. Unlike the large caps that they've replaced, the smaller newer ones appear to have no safety valve in the base, so it'll be an impressive noise if they do go. Luckily the PSU has a lot of metal around it... cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 16 18:43:22 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:43:22 -0500 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <003c01c52a85$9702d790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <0IDH00M6L0N535@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>FWIW it still takes a good (8 hour) day to get one turnaround >>of the code for our FPGAs (and that's using high-spec PCs). >>This was true three years ago too, so I presume that, barring >>any great breakthrough, things will remain the same (at least >>for the complex sorts of FPGAs we[1] do). Compensating effects... FPGA's getting more complicated at the same rate the (development system) processing capabilities are increasing??? Wonder how long with would take to gen the code for a 1986 FPGA on todays machine, or todays FPGA on a 1986 box........??? From spc at conman.org Wed Mar 16 18:54:57 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:54:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 16, 2005 10:59:13 PM Message-ID: <20050317005457.D30F173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. > > But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and > solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. What? And risk one of my precious IBM keyboards?! They're getting harder and harder to find nowadays (didn't find *any* at the last Ham fest [1]) and what ones I have left I'm not willing to experiment on. But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with a soldering iron and all that. Also, I've found a source for the IBM keyboards (AT or PS/2 style) still being made (although without the IBM logo) http://www.pckeyboard.com/ but they're *expensive* (although well worth it). -spc (The most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10) From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 16 19:02:10 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:02:10 -0800 Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <1111021330.6741.57.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 16:01 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Guy wrote: > > Actually you want to find patterns (and they do exist) that are > > pathological (ie worst case) for the encoder/decoder *and* for the error > > correction being used. > > Basically by the time the data has been through three layers of ECC with > interleave, the scrambler, and the EFM modulation, there's no way to > guarantee that your pathological pattern will actually be pathological, > because you don't know the initial phase relationship of any of the > stages. In a carefully controlled lab environment with support from > the design engineers you could do it, but as an end user of a black > box (commercial CD/DVD writer) you can't, even armed with copies of the > revelant standards, because you don't have enough visibility into > the black box. Sure you do. You know every transformation will be performed on the data to get it onto the media. And in the case of CDROMs I can say with certainty that the state of all of the stages is explicitly known. The derivation of the pathological pattern is based upon the transformations that will be performed on it to get it onto the media. It doesn't require *any* lab environment (just the right software and suitably compliant hardware...ie a CDwriter that allows "raw" writes). I've done this work. It's not easy and the math (finite fields) will blow your mind but it is certainly possible (obviously, we have an existence proof...the CDROMs themselves). > > By comparison, coming up with the pathological test cases for FM, MFM, > M2FM, RLL (1,7) and (2,7), etc. is a piece of cake. Agreed, mainly because the error correction in CDROMs is very strong (mainly because the raw error rate is relatively high). However, it still amazes me that CDROMs work at all! A 1X CDROM has 6Mb/s at the optical pickup (and don't start that it's 150KB/s or 170KB/s because both of those numbers are wrong)! > > For instance, one of the worst-case test patterns for MFM is the > repeating byte sequence 6D, B6, DB (hexadecimal), which generates > alternating short and long intervals between flux transitions with no > medium length intervals. Though most test programs just repeated the > first two bytes. Yes, simple interfaces with little error correction have simple pathological patterns. -- TTFN - Guy From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 16 19:27:18 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:27:18 -0800 Subject: FPGAs was USB Universal Floppy Disk controller References: <200503170047.j2H0kub7043084@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201c52a90$7682d4b0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Eric wrote: > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem > and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort > in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your own software working > for one family, that family would have long since been discontinued. Scott wrote: > I would suspect that while there might be hundreds of thousands of man > hours, that there just can't possible be hundreds of thousands of man > *years* involved. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 16 19:37:49 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:37:49 -0800 Subject: FPGAs was USB Universal Floppy Disk controller Message-ID: <000c01c52a91$ee4cc400$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Eric wrote: > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard problem > and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of development effort > in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your own software working > for one family, that family would have long since been discontinued. Scott wrote: > I would suspect that while there might be hundreds of thousands of man > hours, that there just can't possible be hundreds of thousands of man > *years* involved. Xilinx is putting in hundreds of man years this year alone. They have been at it for over 20 years so their development software amounts to 1000s of man years of work. (I was in the PLD/FPGA software development business from 1982 to 1997.) >From the Xilinx Web page http://www.xilinx.com/company/press/grounder.htm Headquartered in San Jose, California, Xilinx is a publicly traded company (NASDAQ: XLNX) with approximately 2,600 employees, with nearly half of its engineers dedicated to software development. Michael Holley (Sorry about the last blank message) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 19:43:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:43:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <1111021330.6741.57.camel@linux.site> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111021330.6741.57.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <50918.64.139.41.130.1111023791.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Guy wrote: > It doesn't > require *any* lab environment (just the right software and suitably > compliant hardware...ie a CDwriter that allows "raw" writes). I was assuming a "normal" CD-writer, which can't be assumed to support raw writes. Many CD-writers don't, and some that do claim to support raw writes do so incorrectly. If you can do raw writes, you can guarantee the alignment of the "data" to the subcode framing. Otherwise (with a non-raw-write-capable drive, you cannot, and thus you can't predict the complete details of the actual EFM sequence that will be written to disc. Though to be fair, that only will affect 14 channel code bits out of every 1372. But even after you've done all that, you're not going to find a way to generate any channel data pattern that is significantly more succeptible to externally induced error (e.g., oxidation) than what you will get from random data. That was my original point. > I've done this work. Why? I hacked my own software to read a CD based on raw preamp output, in order to investigate copy-protected discs, but what would the point be in developing anything that could generated a desired EFM channel pattern from application-level data, unless you were developing or validating a CD writer? Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 19:32:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:32:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <003c01c52a85$9702d790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Mar 17, 5 00:09:28 am Message-ID: > FWIW it still takes a good (8 hour) day to get one turnaround > of the code for our FPGAs (and that's using high-spec PCs). So not much better then. The FPGAs have presumably become more complex as the PCs to compile them get faster... > This was true three years ago too, so I presume that, barring > any great breakthrough, things will remain the same (at least > for the complex sorts of FPGAs we[1] do). > > OTOH hand-wiring something equivalent would keep you occupied > a bit longer than a day I should think :-) Oh yes. But the point it is took many, many, compiles to get the darn thing to work. I am sure I could have hand-wired it in less time than that. If you need to make a change to a hand-wired design, it takes, perhaps, 5 minutes. To do it to the FPGA design means another overnight compile. Maybe I am terminally clueless (well, I am, but...) , but I prefer to design a bit, build it, test it, design the next part, and so on. Doing that in an FPGA seems to be totally impractical with the long compile times. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 16 11:52:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:52:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Definitely get the IDC connectors, even if you have to mail order them. > > Soldering 50 conductor ribbon cable is not my idea of fun. > > Another tip ; If, as here, you're making a cable with swapped-round > connections, get the 'rainbow' multi-coloured cable, not the grey stuff. > Being able to recognise wire 15 (it's the second green one) rather than > counting, and probalby miscounting, for each one, is well worth the extra > cost of the rainbow cable. I'd have to agree with Tony. Even though I was able to successfully make a cable using the grey stuff, I had to check, and re-check, and check again, and check one more time before I committed the crimp to make sure I had it right. Even then, it's much easier if you can find a 50 conductor edge connector rather than going from a 50-pin IDC to 34-pin IDC like I did. But I did it this way because my drive enclosure has a 50-pin female IDC connector on it and the SCSI cable was already half of what I needed. Out of convenience, I ended up getting a 50 conductor edge connector and crimping it on to the cable an inch away from the 50-pin IDC so now the cable can be used on both connector types. It would also be easier to get an old floppy cable and cut off one end, then connect the 50 conductor connector to the end of that. The problem might be finding a long enough 34-conductor floppy cable. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 16 19:46:49 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:46:49 -0800 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: From: "Tom Jennings" > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: > > "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no knowledge of > > Nova H/W. > > Oh, I was just thinking generally. I don't know if he's absolutely > convinced the thing is worth $600, or isn't sure and thought he'd > try that, or just fishing, or what. > > It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was > aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial > businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit > might illuminate that. I've met him; he seems nice enough (bought a dual-rack 8e, with peripherals, from him once). It is clear that it is business for him -- he seems to make his money buying stuff at auction, selling what seems saleable, and scrapping the rest. He has a lot of space and seems to be very patient about storing items (that he thinks will be worth something) until a buyer can be found. > And finally, if he becomes aware it's really not worth much > money-wise (shipping alone will be $100), and will sell it to you > 'cheap', you could probably part it out and recoup maybe $100 if > you were so inclined. Like I said, I'd buy a memory or two, maybe > another IO card. If it were PDP-8 stuff, I'd try to see what he'd take for it, but I'm not very comfortable guessing what Nova stuff is worth. Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 16 19:38:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:38:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050317005457.D30F173029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Mar 16, 5 07:54:57 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. > > > > But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and > > solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. > > What? And risk one of my precious IBM keyboards?! They're getting harder What's the risk? FWIW, I did the PS/2 -> AT conversion on the IBM keyboard I am typing this on. I seem to rememnber I couldn't find the PS/2 pinout at the time I was doing it. I did (of course) have the PC/AT one. I opened up the keyboard and buzzed out 2 of the wires to the power pins of a known chip. Those I soldered to the right pair of pins on the DIN plug. The other 2 wires, clock and data, are both open-collector driven bidirectional TTL signals. You can try those one way round on the clock/data pins of the DIN plug, when it doesn't work ('press F1 to contine' :-)), power down and try them the other way round. > But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it > to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with > a soldering iron and all that. How about a hardware guy with a C compiler :-) -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 16 20:00:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:00:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <003c01c52a85$9702d790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Mar 17, 5 00:09:28 am Message-ID: <52125.64.139.41.130.1111024852.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tony wrote: > So not much better then. The FPGAs have presumably become more complex as > the PCs to compile them get faster... [...] > Oh yes. But the point it is took many, many, compiles to get the darn > thing to work. I am sure I could have hand-wired it in less time than > that. For a Spartan 3 FPGA (XC3S400), in less than five minutes I can compile a design that includes a 32-bit RISC processor core, a VGA controller, a PS/2 mouse controller, and an SDRAM interface. If I wanted to build the equivalent out of SSI/MSI chips, it would take me weeks if not months. > If you need to make a change to a hand-wired design, it takes, > perhaps, 5 minutes. To do it to the FPGA design means another overnight > compile. Depends on the change. If it's simple, the times might be comparable. For a complex change, doing it on the FPGA is much faster. For instance, suppose I decide that I want to change the load and store byte instructions to be little-endian rather than big-endian. With an HDL and FPGA, that's a simple change to somewhere between one and four lines of code, depending on the design style. With a hand-wired design it's at least 32 signals to be rewired, assuming that the relevant data path isn't used for anything else. If the data path is shared, it might require the addition of more buffers and the control logic to drive them. IF I want to do things like experiment with adding extra pipeline stages, the FPGA is an even bigger win. Eric From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 16 19:59:52 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:59:52 -0800 Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <50918.64.139.41.130.1111023791.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111021330.6741.57.camel@linux.site> <50918.64.139.41.130.1111023791.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <1111024792.6741.67.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-16 at 17:43 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Guy wrote: > > It doesn't > > require *any* lab environment (just the right software and suitably > > compliant hardware...ie a CDwriter that allows "raw" writes). > > I was assuming a "normal" CD-writer, which can't be assumed to > support raw writes. Many CD-writers don't, and some that do claim > to support raw writes do so incorrectly. The one's I've used have done a reasonably good job of it. In many cases it's the software that gets it wrong. > > If you can do raw writes, you can guarantee the alignment of the > "data" to the subcode framing. Otherwise (with a non-raw-write-capable > drive, you cannot, and thus you can't predict the complete details > of the actual EFM sequence that will be written to disc. Though to > be fair, that only will affect 14 channel code bits out of every 1372. > Yep. > But even after you've done all that, you're not going to find a way to > generate any channel data pattern that is significantly more succeptible > to externally induced error (e.g., oxidation) than what you will get > from random data. That was my original point. > > > I've done this work. > > Why? > > I hacked my own software to read a CD based on raw preamp output, in > order to investigate copy-protected discs, but what would the point > be in developing anything that could generated a desired EFM channel > pattern from application-level data, unless you were developing or > validating a CD writer? It was a while ago (1997). A certain company (who shall remain nameless) said that certain things w.r.t. CDROMs could only be done with their media and their writers. I took that as a challenge and was able to reproduce what they were doing with generic media and writers that were available. It required that I delve deeply into how the CDROM format worked and specifically the Reed-Soloman codes (since I was writing "raw", the writer wouldn't generate them, so I had to). I was able to write whatever I wanted (well there were limits) onto the CDROM. Even after I had done this and showed that my results were identical to theirs, I had their engineers telling me that it was impossible. Which only goes to prove: "The possible we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer". -- TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 16 20:02:22 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:02:22 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4238E52E.2010403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >Oh yes. But the point it is took many, many, compiles to get the darn >thing to work. I am sure I could have hand-wired it in less time than >that. If you need to make a change to a hand-wired design, it takes, >perhaps, 5 minutes. To do it to the FPGA design means another overnight >compile. > > It depends on how complex your design is. It is when you get about 80+% things slow right down. The biggest problem with FPGA's and CPLD's is getting the compiler to keep the same pin layout on the part between compiles or having a compile work when you assign your pin layout. IE: pin 45 clock; pin 35 io7 ... >Maybe I am terminally clueless (well, I am, but...) , but I prefer to >design a bit, build it, test it, design the next part, and so on. Doing >that in an FPGA seems to be totally impractical with the long compile times. > > > Well you can do that way too. Even with CPLD's you still have hardware ... Hammer saw saw saw drill curse .... I'm busy making the wooden box to hold the computer and front panel. >-tony. > > PS. Back on topic ... looking a digi-key catalog they have a lot USB to ABC development kits. A bit pricy like $200-$300 but it may be worth it if you can find a USB to uControler kit. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 16 20:06:43 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:06:43 -0700 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4238E633.5040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it >>to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with >>a soldering iron and all that. >> >> > >How about a hardware guy with a C compiler :-) > > > Wait till I build the hardware first ... then the %@$! compiler. Ben alias woodelf. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 16 20:12:20 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:12:20 -0600 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Was MagTapes) In-Reply-To: <20050316180451.5f03e591.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050314145210.0227d3f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> <888dc24b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20050316180451.5f03e591.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4238E784.2040709@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Sometimes I wonder if the high-speed CD-ROM drives we all enjoy now are > always as good as they're thought to be. I remember my first experience > with a > 4x drive. I was used to the older drives which spin slower, > and the new fast drive 'spun up' like there was a big noisy machine > (there was) inside the PC Case. Perhaps there should be effort spent > on a more reliable grade of CD-ROM technology that emphasizes > reliability and long term life over rip-roaring speed. I can't help but > think that spinning your important archival CDs at a 2x reading speed > would be easier on them than the screaming fast rate most are read at > now. This is a sound (no pun intended) theory, and Nero comes with software that can be used to limit the speed of your CDROM drive. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 16 20:14:52 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:14:52 -0700 Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4238E81C.8080405@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>Definitely get the IDC connectors, even if you have to mail order them. >>Soldering 50 conductor ribbon cable is not my idea of fun. > > > Another tip ; If, as here, you're making a cable with swapped-round > connections, get the 'rainbow' multi-coloured cable, not the grey stuff. > Being able to recognise wire 15 (it's the second green one) rather than > counting, and probalby miscounting, for each one, is well worth the extra > cost of the rainbow cable. Tony, of all the useful suggestions I've seen you make on this list, that's probably the coolest. I know my parts house *has* a few yards of multi-color 34-lead ribbon, and it likely wouldn't have occured to me to use it. I did borrow my boss's line-labeler, though. :) And I'm still planning to use it. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 16 20:15:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:15:29 -0700 Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <1111024792.6741.67.camel@linux.site> References: <8b.234d3a4e.2f68ee47@aol.com> <57776.64.139.41.130.1111011472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111014123.6741.34.camel@linux.site> <39543.64.139.41.130.1111017664.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111021330.6741.57.camel@linux.site> <50918.64.139.41.130.1111023791.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <1111024792.6741.67.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4238E841.90401@jetnet.ab.ca> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Which only goes to prove: "The possible we do immediately, the >impossible takes a little longer". > > Well lets get the quote right. "The difficult we do right away...the impossible takes slightly longer." Philo T. Farnsworth -- inventor of television. From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 16 20:20:12 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:20:12 -0500 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay In-Reply-To: <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: > > "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no > knowledge of > > Nova H/W. > > Oh, I was just thinking generally. I don't know if he's absolutely > convinced the thing is worth $600, or isn't sure and thought he'd > try that, or just fishing, or what. > > It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was > aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial > businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit > might illuminate that. Gold-snipper occasionally puts old computer stuff on ebay. I have bought a PDP-11 board or two from him before. Ashley From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 16 20:39:07 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:39:07 -0800 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay In-Reply-To: References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: At 5:46 PM -0800 3/16/05, vrs wrote: >If it were PDP-8 stuff, I'd try to see what he'd take for it, but I'm not >very comfortable guessing what Nova stuff is worth. I'm not either, I know zip about DG HW. I do know that what he's wanting for some of that DEC HW is rather unrealistic, at least for selling it on eBay. He looks to be attempting to get from dealer prices, while selling on eBay (which typically doesn't work). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 16 21:13:36 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:13:36 -0500 Subject: three and a quarter inch floppy? In-Reply-To: <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002401c5234a$cc451a40$2101a8c0@finans><001801c52350$8051d690$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop><002f01c523a6$fd4b9720$743dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050308040114.03425990@pop-server> <20050308143217.L96189@shell.lmi.net> <018a01c52436$bad23760$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4238F5E0.9060003@sbcglobal.net> Jim Beacon wrote: >>The later versions of the 3.5" use3d a higher coercivity disk, and held >>1.4M, instead of the previous 720K. >>There were some other variations of the 3.5" physical case, including a >>2.8M Berrium-Ferrite disk, and 20M Flopticals. >> >>-- >>Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com >>XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > > > Does anyone have one of the IBM 2.88M 3.5" devices - we had a couple of PS2 > machines with these in at work, but the drives disappeared (replaced with > 1.44M units). > > jim. I do believe I have an old Thinkpad with one of them 2.88 drives. Anybody want it? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 16 23:32:19 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:32:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix Message-ID: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something similar to what I'm looking for, but I wondered what other alternatives there were. Any architecture will do, but I'm particularly interested in minicomputer architectures for this project (DG, DEC, IBM, etc., would all be appropriate). Thanks for humouring my odd request ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Wed Mar 16 23:46:38 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:46:38 -0700 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost><20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: <008a01c52ab4$b350e430$ca66bccc@newhare> I have e.mailed and talked with "gold-snipper" in the past few years when he has had Nova- and Eclipse-related items available. I believe Vince is most accurate with his comment that it is a business for 'gold-snipper', he is looking for $ for the items, and patiently waiting for a buyer is okay with him. Bruce Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: http://www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:46 PM Subject: Re: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay > From: "Tom Jennings" > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: > > > "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no knowledge > of > > > Nova H/W. > > > > Oh, I was just thinking generally. I don't know if he's absolutely > > convinced the thing is worth $600, or isn't sure and thought he'd > > try that, or just fishing, or what. > > > > It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was > > aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial > > businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit > > might illuminate that. > > I've met him; he seems nice enough (bought a dual-rack 8e, with peripherals, > from him once). It is clear that it is business for him -- he seems to make > his money buying stuff at auction, selling what seems saleable, and > scrapping the rest. > > He has a lot of space and seems to be very patient about storing items (that > he thinks will be worth something) until a buyer can be found. > > > And finally, if he becomes aware it's really not worth much > > money-wise (shipping alone will be $100), and will sell it to you > > 'cheap', you could probably part it out and recoup maybe $100 if > > you were so inclined. Like I said, I'd buy a memory or two, maybe > > another IO card. > > If it were PDP-8 stuff, I'd try to see what he'd take for it, but I'm not > very comfortable guessing what Nova stuff is worth. > > Vince > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 17 00:00:12 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:00:12 -0800 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 9:32 PM -0800 3/16/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that >will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? > >I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something similar to >what I'm looking for, but I wondered what other alternatives there were. Any >architecture will do, but I'm particularly interested in minicomputer >architectures for this project (DG, DEC, IBM, etc., would all be appropriate). > >Thanks for humouring my odd request ^^ Actually it's an interesting question... RSX-11C on the PDP-11 comes to mind, I think that's the right RSX version, but it might require more RAM like 32k. Shoot, even Lunix on the C-64 requires 64k. Then again, maybe I'm thinking to new... What about TSS/8 on the PDP-8? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 00:09:32 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:09:32 +0800 Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: <20050316181720.6122a4dc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> <20050314181717.M68036@shell.lmi.net> <20050316181720.6122a4dc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:17:20 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > These days the bloat seems to have crept into the 'alternatives to > Microsoft' in depressing ways that make it harder all the time to blame > Microsoft. Office 2000 runs much smoother (and in a nominally usable > fashion) on my old 486 laptop than the 'OpenOffice' alternative. The > new 'Free' desktops bring old hardware to it's knees. I suspect it's > all the C++ and suboptimal 'modern coding techniques' which foist off a > LOT of the work to the hardware. I just can't feel honest anymore > subscribing to a 'blame Microsoft' attitude. Well, yes and no. Yes KDE and GNOME both are bloated. If you ever had the misfortune to run them on a P100, you'll know what I mean. If you're on a 486 lower system, you still can install Slack or Debian. Strip off X and all the libs completely and run in console mode. For paperwork, you can use troff (hey! it's ontopic), or Latex (ontopic too!) or sgmltools (I think ontopic but not sure). FWIW, I used to prepare papers and reports using DECdocument (precursor to SGML) on a uVaxII/GFX. And it didn't felt slow at all. Surely trying to open a document via OpenOffice on a P100 will be slower... /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 00:25:09 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:25:09 +0800 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:00:12 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:32 PM -0800 3/16/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that > >will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? > > uCOS-II. (http://www.ucos-ii.com) Real-time, pre-emptive multitasking, embedded. Comes with source-code, have to buy the book to be legal. Heck it even has a TCP/IP module. Quote (page 72) of the said book: "A minimal kernel for an 8-bit CPU that provides only scheduling, context switching, semaphore management, delays and timeouts should require about 1 to 3kB or code space." So theoretically it'd be possible to port this to a 16kW PDP. From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 17 00:34:43 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:34:43 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <021701c52abb$67ef8ad0$3a92a8c0@maggie> do a goole on "tiny unix" there was a port of mmu-less unix V5 or V6 that ran on LSI-11 - so it fit in 16KWords.. h Cameron Kaiser" asked: > Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that > will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? > > I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something similar to > what I'm looking for, but I wondered what other alternatives there were. Any > architecture will do, but I'm particularly interested in minicomputer > architectures for this project (DG, DEC, IBM, etc., would all be appropriate). > > Thanks for humouring my odd request ^^ > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 17 01:44:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:44:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay In-Reply-To: References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: <20050316233828.L849@localhost> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: >> It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was >> aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial >> businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit >> might illuminate that. > > I've met him; he seems nice enough (bought a dual-rack 8e, with peripherals, > from him once). It is clear that it is business for him -- he seems to make > his money buying stuff at auction, selling what seems saleable, and > scrapping the rest. Well he wrote me back and we've emailed a bit. He's knowledgeable, probably runs a successful business and may get the price he's asking for eventually. Good for him! I'm not in the business, as the exchange reminded me. To be blunt I was probably talking out of my ass re: it's value. I'll go back to my corner now. From bristol22 at softhome.net Thu Mar 17 01:54:15 2005 From: bristol22 at softhome.net (bristol22 at softhome.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:54:15 -0700 Subject: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R (Rewrite from original poster) Message-ID: I am the scoundrel that made the original post on this topic that opened a flood of discussion. Members brought up details that I never addressed; and I learned from everyone's posts. Thank you! This may be useless, beating a dead horse, and off topic. I am re-submitting here my original 6 point comment with corrections and links, and with ADDITIONS as points: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 to cover other areas people have brought up, etc. Richard Bristol ---------------------------------------------------------- Archival longevity of DVD and CD media may be a good topic for the computer preservationist. I have studied this quite a bit. My first conclusion, including from crude accelerated life and torture tests I made myself, is that the "100 year" claims some people made are likely baloney. A research article appeared in the German version of Q't magazine (unless I miss-spelled that), where they did some tests on raw error rate on just burned DVD+R media, using some $50,000 equipment. None of the media they tested had a low enough raw error rate to meet the requirements of the DVD+R standard. Yet they sell it. (Mitsubishi did the best.) Then there are many hobbiests looking at raw error rates on DVD media using Lite-On drives with firmware than can report on raw errors. For example, hobbiests measure and post on sites like: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Print.aspx?ArticleId=11657 My overall conclusion is that most DVD media on the market sold by no-names, and by the names Sony, Maxell, Memorex, 3M Imation, etc is not very good. These companies re-badge whaterver is cheapest this month from whatever factory. My least favorite factory is CMC Magnetics Corporation in Europe. Next worst in my view are some Korean and Taiwanese factories (K-Well, In Young, and Lead Data=Great Quality=GQ). TDK seems to be the only advertised brand that makes their own DVD-R that you can actually buy in a USA retail store (although one member said maybe they don't make it themselves), unless the store carries Verbatim. I just verified that Pioneer and Verbatim buy their media from the good Japanese companies, Mitsubishi (MCC), Taiyo Yuden (TY), and Mitsui. Anyway, Pioneer and Verbatim consistently have low raw error rates. A low error rate when freshly burned gives greater margin that as the errors increase as the media ages, error correction can still take care of it. Also, these companies have better engineering about the life span of the organic dyes and such used in the data layer. So when I want it to last, I do this: 1) Use a good burner with low raw error rate after burn/read and good media-to-other-machine cross compatibility. I used to recommend the Pioneer DVR-105 and below, but the DVR-107 and DVR-108 are poor at this. Now I recommend BenQ DW1620 ($52) DVD+-RW double layer drive. Most burners have new firmware you can flash even if you bought it yesterday. A lot of the effort in the new firmware is decreasing the error rate on some media, so it is often worth flashing it. 2) My first choice of media is either Pioneer or Verbatim DVD-R, followed by DVD+R from the same two makers. Third choice brand is TDK. I don't trust much else. Double sided and double layer DVD are a little imature at this point. 3) The freeware Windoze program DVDinfo.exe will tell you who made your mysterious media (reads it off the media). E.g. MCC001 is made by Mitsubishi. 4) All RW media (DVD-RW DVD+RW CD-RW) have poor archival life. Think about it: with RW, instead of burning a pit in the data layer, you are fooling around with glossy or matte finish depending on how quickly a melted liquid re-freezes. Official tests, and my own tests, show poor life. A little sunlight-UV can erase it. 5) I don't burn more than 85% of the capacity of a DVD. DVDs are a sandwich, lexan (polycarbonate) on both sides, data layer chemistry in the middle. The spiral starts on the inside (opposite LP records). If you leave 3/4" unused at the outside edge, it will take longer before the Ozone and 02 and other environmental exposures that attack the data chemistry at the edges of the lexan sandwitch actually reach your data. So on a "4.7GB" disk which in real life could hold 4.3GB, I burn 3.8GB. 6) DVD-R or DVD+R is better than CD-R, because it is a sandwich. DVD also has stronger error correction. CD-R often dies from the label side, by getting bumped against the drive tray, the jewel case, a pen... The paint layer that protects your data on the label side is very thin and fragile. CD-R also die from chemical errosion from ozone, fingers, marking pens, etc on the label side. I write on them only in the center no-data area. DVDs, being a sandwich, don't have those problems. 7) If you really care about it's archival life, hedge your bets by burning two copies, on DIFFERENT media. Select two good media types made by different companies. Each may have, just a guess, a 10% chance of self-destructing within 20 years. This would be because of a design or implimentation mistake. For example perhaps the sandwich adheasive includes a chemical that eventually reacts badly with the data, or some impurity in manufacturing at that time. If the two media are very different, their probabilty of failure approaches statistical indpendence; and if independent then the chance that both are unreadable would approach 0.1 * 0.1 or only a 1% chance. 8) Because the data is sandwiched in plastic, my belief is that single-layer single-sided DVD-R or DVD+R as a class will last longer then CD-R as a class. However, some applications require CD-R. For archival CD-R I have used extensively and can recommend "BASF by EMTEC" (Emtec in USA) "Ceram Guard" CD-R BASF CD-R74 Maxima Ceram DA (really made by Taiyo Yuden). (Beware some different Emtec/Basf CD-R are made by CMC and are poor.) However "Ceram Guard" is truely hard to buy in the USA. I bought mine for $2 each from the retail chain "Guitar Center" in person (guitarcenter.com). They were marked "for audio use" but that does not matter. They are NOT gold. Their feature is that a ceramic coating is vacumn sputter-coated on the labeled. You could probably use a ball point pen on it. They are by a mile the most sturdy CD-R I have ever seen. Unlike most CD-R, taps to the label side don't kill them. Out of about 1000 CD-R I have seen or used "in the field", I have seen about 25 dead CD-R's (that were once good) And 22 of those 25 were at least slightly abused. (Sun, moisture, tap on drive tray on label side when inserting, or tap on jewel case) Only 3 of 25 appeared to die from purely with "from the inside bit rot". Of those 3, 2 were made by one company: GQ Great Quality, Taiwan. So I am mostly interested in the label side coating. These ceramic coated disks are mentioned here: http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/basf.shtml BASF/Emtec also sells these as "archival" but I would want to know who made it for them before buying. They are real gold: BASF/Emtec CD-R Gold Digital Photo BASF/Emtec DVD+R Digital Video Gold Occasionally you can find "Kodak InfoGuard". They are expensive. They have a very tough label side, and use gold. They are semi-discontinued, and were sold to medical and business markets. If you have a Kodak "Picture CD" from film processing you may have one there. Kodak digital science InfoGuard, maker: Kodak Japan Limited, Phthalocyanine 1X - 4X Kodak Gold Ultima InfoGuard, maker: Kodak Japan Limited, Phthalocyanine 1X - 4X More practically speaking, you CAN actually buy Mitsui "MAM Gold CD-R" for about $1 each now. They use real gold, and have a decent paint layer they call "diamond coat". (But it's not anywhere near the toughness of "Ceram Guard" or even "InfoGuard".) Described for sale here: http://store.mam-a-store.com/standard---archive-gold.html 9) I don't know if high-spin readers contribute to media death. But too high a speed definitely contributes to "can't read Table of Contents" and "ECC Error" on read, and marginal quality burns. Plextor CD-R burners come with PlexTools(?) software specifically to slow them down. You can sometimes read a CD-R this way that otherwise can't be read on newer faster readers. To read a CD-R whose errors are too high for most all readers, I prefer these to read it: Plextor 4x CD-RW drive, or 12x (not 8x). Plextor 20x and above are not as good. Cheap and I have a few: Panasonic 12x just plain reader. Sometimes other 4x readers by NEC, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony. 10) I like to try, when burning, for the lowest raw-error-rate (that some machines can tell you when you read). Published tests show excessive speed hurts. My rule of thumb when burning is: Never exceed the lesser of the media's rated speed, or 2/3 of the burner's maximum speed. So if a CD-R burner will burn at 48x, and the media says it is 80x, I will burn it at around 12x or 24x. There is such a thing as too slow also, for a particular burner. The sweet spot gives you a lower raw error rate, and greater cross-compatibility when reading it on many different drives. 11) A disk that takes a long time to "settle" (usually light goes out) on insertion is a possible indication of a high error rate and likelyhood of complete table of contents failure later. 12) The free Windoze program md5summer.exe will generate a text file with .md5 ending for any directory tree of files. Each line in the file is the md5, a space, *, and then the pathname; one line per file. I put one of these .md5 files in the top level of my CD-R or DVD-R burns. Then, in Windoze a couple years later, double click that .md5 file and it does the opposite, and confirms the md5 of each file on the media. I have seen a few CD-Rs that were damaged, that in Windoze gave no error message at all when read, but the data read back was actually wrong. I use md5summer also before ftp etc. transfers. Will someone better informed say how this is best done and commonly done in linux and unix? Perhaps find . -exec md5sum '{}' \; > md5sum_list or something? And the checking later? Richard Bristol (the same guy who recently asked for help reading 9-track tar tapes) From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 17 02:16:39 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:16:39 -0600 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <42393CE7.1000201@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that > will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? Does it have to be Unix? If not, try Contiki (http://www.sics.se/~adam/contiki/). Website says code footprint is in the order of kilobytes, and RAM usage less than one hundred bytes. > I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something similar to I don't believe Contiki has been ported to PDP-11, although it already has been ported to embedded microcontrollers. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 17 02:21:53 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:21:53 -0600 Subject: OT: Longevity of DVD-R and CD-R / 2-Media Hedge In-Reply-To: References: <200503150152.RAA24309@clulw009.amd.com> <20050314181717.M68036@shell.lmi.net> <20050316181720.6122a4dc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42393E21.6070107@oldskool.org> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > If you're on a 486 lower system, you still can install Slack or > Debian. Strip off X and all the libs completely and run in console > mode. I used to run Slackware in X on my 386/40 so don't give up hope yet. Just don't run a bloated window manager like KDE or GNOME or Enlightenment, etc. I ran twm and Afterstep and was very happy, had a 1024x768 screen, too, and this was back in 1994. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 17 02:32:57 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050317001137.U849@localhost> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > This does require regular reading of the archived disk. This > is not necessarily an easy thing to do. I'd like to offer that there is no such thing as archival computer media. None. Dwight's comment is succinct; all offline storage needs to be checked. Literally all of it is rotting on the shelf. (For short-term backup, eg. data loss prevention, this logic doesn't apply so directly.) It's a lot of work to check archival data; nearly no one does it right, and it mostly amounts to spot checks (a valid method certainly but in itself an admission of the scope of the problem). I don't do "backups" per se; I keep everything on rotating spindles, aka hard disks in running systems. If you pause to consider what this means as a long-term solution, it sounds really precarious, because it is; but in fact it's *less precarious* than any form of offline storage because it is essentially 100% continuously monitored, embedded in a live computer. I have five computers in four physically distinct locations (three are >> 100 miles apart) with enough storage to hold literally all the computer-readable data I own. If you somehow think that tapes stored in a controlled vault is more reliable, or less susceptible to bit rot than rotating spindles, I believe you are wrong (and my every experience and observation says otherwise). Only fiche and paper are statically reliable. It's no crazier to think that my data (sic) will reside on a series of continuously operating computers for the next N decades than it is that a CD-R or DVD-R will last as long, or be readable N decades in the future. Yes, in one sense it makes me nervous. That's good! Dump tapes sitting in a closet or bank vault are rotting and becoming spectacularly incompatible; it just doesn't generally make people nervouse, but it should. Hard disk storage also neatly avoids the incompatible-media issue; it's continuously ported, incrementally. The translation issues are from M to M+1, far less than trying to deal with 8" floppies, 1/2" tape or other once-standard media. Also, for the moment at least, disks of tomorrow are chealer and larger than disks of today, neatly taking care of increasing data size (for how long this will hold out I don't know). Whether you have 10MB or 1 TB of data, it's still cheaper with rotating spindles. If you've really got a terabyte of data to reliably save, backup tape isn't cheaper -- if you include the longevity issue, of translating last-years tapes to next-years tape. Who does that? Not many... It's not about the medium, it's about the data. All of our mediums suck for archival purposes, except paper and fiche. Generally-speaking, our cultures don't directly care about preserving the future, and machine media is a narrower case of that. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 02:44:38 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:44:38 +0800 Subject: Re; Age In-Reply-To: <20050316125631.98201.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050316125631.98201.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:56:31 -0800 (PST), Robert Stek wrote: > I'm 56.4166666... or thereabouts. > Saver of Lost Sols Wow! I love it. This is one cool signature!! :-) /wai-sun From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 02:46:46 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:46:46 -0800 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050317001137.U849@localhost> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> Message-ID: <1111049206.8646.16.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 00:32 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > Hard disk storage also neatly avoids the incompatible-media issue; > it's continuously ported, incrementally. The translation issues > are from M to M+1, far less than trying to deal with 8" floppies, > 1/2" tape or other once-standard media. > > Also, for the moment at least, disks of tomorrow are chealer and > larger than disks of today, neatly taking care of increasing data > size (for how long this will hold out I don't know). > > Whether you have 10MB or 1 TB of data, it's still cheaper with > rotating spindles. If you've really got a terabyte of data to > reliably save, backup tape isn't cheaper -- if you include the > longevity issue, of translating last-years tapes to next-years > tape. Who does that? Not many... > > It's not about the medium, it's about the data. All of our mediums > suck for archival purposes, except paper and fiche. > Generally-speaking, our cultures don't directly care about > preserving the future, and machine media is a narrower case of > that. This reminds me that I read not too long ago that many of the super computer labs ship PCs between sites because it's *faster* to ship a working PC with 1TB of disk containing data than it is to transfer it over a long haul network (ie FedEx will get it there in ~24hrs...think about the bandwidth required to transfer 1TB in ~24hrs). Not to mention a whole lot cheaper! It also scales well!! :-) Reminds me of the saying "Don't underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes going at 60mph!". (And yes, I probably got that quote wrong too!). -- TTFN - Guy From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 02:54:07 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:54:07 +0800 Subject: Re; Age In-Reply-To: <42c0a6142c1279.42c127942c0a61@optonline.net> References: <42c0a6142c1279.42c127942c0a61@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:19:56 -0500, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > > I first programmed in high school in FORTRAN on an IBM > > 1620 and shortly thereafter.... > > I read this as "...on an IBM **IN** 1620..." and thought we really had a winner on the oldest programmer.... > > ...oh, the coffee is ready....BRB.... > > Heh. Not unless you're Connor McLeod, and if you are, make sure none of your customers have a sword.... :-) From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Mar 17 06:15:18 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:15:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for NeXT system software Message-ID: I have just come into possession of a NextStation, unfortunately sans media. Can anyone point me to where I can get iso images or CDs for this beast? It's got NextStep 3.3 installed, but it would be nice to have a means for recovery. Also looking for the development environment and/or docs. Thanks for any tips! Steve From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 06:45:41 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:45:41 +0000 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <42393CE7.1000201@oldskool.org> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <42393CE7.1000201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <26c11a64050317044524895a38@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:16:39 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking environment that > > will run in 16K or less, preferably with available source? > > Does it have to be Unix? If not, try Contiki > (http://www.sics.se/~adam/contiki/). Website says code footprint is in the > order of kilobytes, and RAM usage less than one hundred bytes. > > > I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something similar to > > I don't believe Contiki has been ported to PDP-11, although it already has been > ported to embedded microcontrollers. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > It's also been converted to the Amstrad CPC and the C64, it looks quite good. Dan From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 06:50:33 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:50:33 +0000 Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050310212652.00a71480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <7b05406638f9d9586cf07f3e69458b4b@k-huhn.com> <42310C70.8070802@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <575131af050317045021bc1003@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:13:19 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It would have been nice to see it continue, but after Apple bought > NeXT rather than Be, Inc. they sort of started to run out of steam. > I might be typing this on a dual 2Ghz G5 running Mac OS X, but I > can't help but thinking how much better the system would be if it had > been BeOS based, rather than OPENSTEP based. The good thing about > them buying NeXT was getting Steve Jobs back, but BeOS was a far more > efficient OS. And yes, I've run OPENSTEP and BeOS on the same system. I know what you mean, but after a few years, and actually building up an old PowerMac 7300/166 I got given for free with a load of bits off eBay - paying money for hardware, most unlike me! - and actually getting to *use* Mac OS X, I came to the conclusion that Apple did the right think. BeOS was gorgeous. My favourite PC OS ever. Everything I used to really like about systems like Acorn RISC OS, Psion EPOC and so on, or AmigaOS. Like those early proprietary 16-bit and 32-bit OSes, BeOS was small, blindingly fast, had a clean, simple GUI and came with an assortment of useful apps. It had a small but competent portfolio of useful software. Unlike most of them, it had networking and Internet capabilities built in, supported memory protection, virtual memory and multiprocessor hardware. And unlike any of them, it ran on cheap generic hardware, What's not to like? But whereas it would have made for a small and blisteringly fast Mac OS X, which with a bundled or integrated copy of SheepSaver would have happily run Classic MacOS & all its apps under the new OS, that's *all* it would have made. BeOS was unique. POSIX-like, but not Unix. Proprietary GUI but one with no unique advantages. Traditional C/C++ development model. Proprietary environment with all that that entails with programmers having to learn it. NextStep/OpenStep represented something different. Yes, all the clutter and kludge of Unix, but: - a new, simple development system using Objective C, Interface Modeller & a vast & comprehensive class library (arguably the best development system and tools for GUI apps there has ever been) - deep thorough object orientation - based on Unix, so familiar to millions of existing programmers, users and techies - based on /open source/ Unix, freeing Apple from the burden of developing & maintaining the entire OS on their own - a solid open networking system build deep into the OS - designed, like BeOS, by former Apple engineers - unlike BeOS, commercially successful (in a small way) for a decade in the open market on various hardware and software platforms - a new and revolutionary GUI based on Display Postscript (now Display PDF, but it's the same difference) - one that offers compelling advantages for designers, users and developers, with powerful new capabilities, but that's already based on known, widespread technology. Up front, BeOS would have made a better successor Mac OS. NextStep had to go through a lot of painful development to make it look and work like MacOS and the result was initially slow and clunky. However, /every/ successive release has made it sleeker and faster, bucking the trend of every other OS in the industry. But that's not what's important. What is important is that along with bringing over all the Mac developers with Carbon, it brought in lots of Unix developers with the Mach/BSD underpinnings, and tempted PC C coders with a different dialect of C, and Java coders with good Java support. Then to all of them it offered, /for free in the box/, the most remarkably polished and effective GUI development environment there is. Getting programmers behind a new OS is essential. It's paramount. That, I think, was the basis of Apple's decision. The result? OS X is by almost any standard the single most polished, friendly, usable, attractive, flexible desktop OS on the planet, and it's attracting lots of new and interesting software development. But by the same token, it's Unix, so if you want to drive it with EMACS and X tools from a /bash/ prompt, you can. BeOS could never have been that. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 17 07:38:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:38:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for NeXT system software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503171341.IAA11498@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have just come into possession of a NextStation, unfortunately sans > media. Can anyone point me to where I can get iso images or CDs for > this beast? It's got NextStep 3.3 installed, but it would be nice to > have a means for recovery. If that's all you're after, then netboot a diskless NetBSD/next68k setup and dd a copy of the disk. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 17 08:02:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Opinions? BeOS In-Reply-To: <575131af050317045021bc1003@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Mar 17, 5 12:50:33 pm" Message-ID: <200503171402.GAA12972@floodgap.com> > BeOS could never have been that. Bravo. I think that's probably the best summation of that I've read. Apple Confidential 2.0 talks in great detail about how Gassee blew the deal for BeOS and drove Apple into Jobs' offer instead. I do like BeOS, and one of these days I'll pick up a BeBox to play with. But I also agree that NeXTSTEP was the better choice. Heck, on all the ultrasound machines I've used up until about a year ago, the computers that downloaded them, read them and presented them to the viewer were all NeXTSTEP (on x86). That's spanning several hospitals over about a five year period. So, they're out there in the wild. ALi is gradually phasing them out and replacing them with conventional Wintel boxes, but the NeXT systems are still in wide use. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I've dedicated my life to linguini." ----- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 17 08:11:38 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <42393CE7.1000201@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 17, 5 02:16:39 am" Message-ID: <200503171411.GAA12876@floodgap.com> Thanks for the suggestions -- maybe I should be a little more specific. Jim L suggested Contiki, but actually Contiki is precisely *not* what I'm after (even though it's a quasi-multitasking environment for small systems); it's unsuitable for the task because: - source is in C (I should have specified I want assembler if possible) - it needs more than 16K to be useful anyway - it doesn't have a "classic" feel to it - it's not preemptively multitasking Also, I know Adam Dunkels well, he's a good guy, and I'll keep my pointy nose out of his active development. ;) Heinz suggested Tiny UNIX, which sounds like Mini UNIX. I googled for it, but all I get are tiny *Linux* distributions. Can anyone point me in the right direction? The closest suggestion to the feel I'm looking for was Zane's suggestions of RSX-11C for the PDP-11, or even better was TSS/8 for the PDP-8. The PDP-8 is actually an architecture very amenable to what I'm looking at doing. Do these have available assembler source? What other multitasking environments, Unixy or not, would be practical on a PDP-8 with 16kW or less? Or other similar mainframe? Thanks for all the suggestions; I should have been much more specific about what I was after. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best things in life are sold out. -------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Mar 17 08:16:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:16:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <200503171411.GAA12876@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Mar 17, 5 06:11:38 am" Message-ID: <200503171416.GAA12440@floodgap.com> > What other multitasking environments, Unixy or not, would be practical on a > PDP-8 with 16kW or less? Or other similar mainframe? Er, minicomputer, before I get lots of pokes and prods. Open mouth, insert Dr Pepper. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dihydrogen monoxide -- the leading environmental pollutant! www.dhmo.org --- From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 17 08:19:29 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:19:29 -0500 Subject: Bootstrapping modern file-transfer tools... In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:20:30 PST.) <20050310200408.D942@localhost> References: <20050310200408.D942@localhost> Message-ID: <200503171419.j2HEJTdJ028401@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm close to abandoning the Kermit source I have for Data General > RDOS... I got it from U Columbia's Kermit site; it's the FORTRAN5 > output of a RATFOR preprocessor, there's no RATFOR source, and > though it compiles, it seems to not talk to the console. Since it's > algorithmic output it's very hard to read. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/rsx84a/356040/aosker.rf Also URL hack; the doc and help files are there. De From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 08:58:46 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:58:46 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <002d01c52b01$d2830250$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > If anyone has any other suggestions (or sources for motor run caps), I'd > > be interested too. Vince said: > I used a Vanguard BC-108 (108-130mfd 110-125VAC) to replace one of mine that > had leaked. They shouldn't be hard to find. > > The physical form factor is different (smaller), so they don't look like the > original equipment, though. I just wrapped it in tape until the diameter > was sufficient for the original clamp :-). My TU56 arrived and I spent some time looking over it. It is missing a G742 module, but has a "homemade" card in its place. It is also missing two M941 jumper/extender cards. Otherwise it appears to be complete. I need a couple of empty take-up reels. Does anyone have any of these or the G742 or M941s? I don't want to waste decent DECtapes just to get empty reels. It is quite dusty and has some cat hairs on it. I'm thinking I should dis-assemble some of it and get rid of the dust that has adhered to most things. What's the best way to clean the backplane to restore it to what should be a functional, clean condition? I looked at the capacitors and they don't appear to have leaked (yet). I also discovered that it likely has not been powered on since 1989. Would it be prudent to go ahead and replace the capacitors, or should I use the "power up slowly" method described by others so the the capacitors can be re-formed? The tape spindles spin by hand and don't appear to be too tight. I will take pictures of the work-in-process and put on my web site at http://www.woffordwitch.com. I'll add a "Current Projects" link on the left-hand nav menu and add TU56/TC11 under there. I'd like to keep a log of everything. Perhaps others can use this information in the future. Ashley From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 17 09:09:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:09:23 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <002d01c52b01$d2830250$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: From: "Ashley Carder" > Vince said: > > > I used a Vanguard BC-108 (108-130mfd 110-125VAC) to replace one of mine that > > had leaked. They shouldn't be hard to find. > > > > The physical form factor is different (smaller), so they don't look like the > > original equipment, though. I just wrapped it in tape until the diameter > > was sufficient for the original clamp :-). > > My TU56 arrived and I spent some time looking over it. It is missing a > G742 module, but has a "homemade" card in its place. It is also missing > two M941 jumper/extender cards. Otherwise it appears to be complete. > I need a couple of empty take-up reels. Does anyone have any of these > or the G742 or M941s? I don't want to waste decent DECtapes just > to get empty reels. The jumper part of the M941 I can probably help with; I don't have any real M941, but I think the extender part is used with some test equipment or other. > It is quite dusty and has some cat hairs on it. I'm thinking I should > dis-assemble some of it and get rid of the dust that has adhered to most > things. What's the best way to clean the backplane to restore it to what > should be a functional, clean condition? Knowing where you got it, I'd guess those are dog hairs :-). Sorry no advice on removing it, except perhaps to try to gently vaccum it out. > I looked at the capacitors and they don't appear to have leaked (yet). > I also discovered that it likely has not been powered on since 1989. > Would it be prudent to go ahead and replace the capacitors, or should > I use the "power up slowly" method described by others so the the > capacitors can be re-formed? I though he had powered it up more recently than that (though probably for only a few minutes). Vince From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 17 09:38:13 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:38:13 -0800 Subject: Looking for NeXT system software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503170738.13610.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 17 March 2005 04:15, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > I have just come into possession of a NextStation, unfortunately sans > media. Can anyone point me to where I can get iso images or CDs for this > beast? It's got NextStep 3.3 installed, but it would be nice to have a > means for recovery. > > Also looking for the development environment and/or docs. I've got a bunch of NeXT's - and obtained additional OS and Application software from this firm. Rob - who runs the firm is dedicated to preserving and supporting NeXT... http://www.blackholeinc.com/ I have no relationship with this firm other than as a client. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 09:43:36 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:43:36 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Eric said: > It's probably worthwhile to disconnect electrolytic capacitors and > reform them separately first. There are tons of web pages about that, > but the basic principle is to apply current-limited DC to it and slowly > let it charge. If you apply rated voltage without current limiting, > and it needs reformation, that's likely to cause it to fail > catastrophically as John described. > > For a very overengineered approach to capacitor reformation which we > used on the PDP-1 project, see the draft of the restoration procedure, > the fifth document in this directory: > > http://pdp-1.org/Documents/RestorationProject/ I read the page on reforming capacitors. Quite a good document. Now I just need to take a refresher physics class so I can totally understand it. Actually, I've been reading some lately on all this stuff, because I don't like to mess with stuff that I don't understand. Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 17 01:51:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:51:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050317001137.U849@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > This does require regular reading of the archived disk. This > > is not necessarily an easy thing to do. > > I'd like to offer that there is no such thing as archival computer > media. None. > > Dwight's comment is succinct; all offline storage needs to be > checked. Literally all of it is rotting on the shelf. > > (For short-term backup, eg. data loss prevention, this logic > doesn't apply so directly.) > > It's a lot of work to check archival data; nearly no one does it > right, and it mostly amounts to spot checks (a valid method > certainly but in itself an admission of the scope of the problem). > > I don't do "backups" per se; I keep everything on rotating > spindles, aka hard disks in running systems. If you pause to > consider what this means as a long-term solution, it sounds really > precarious, because it is; but in fact it's *less precarious* than > any form of offline storage because it is essentially 100% > continuously monitored, embedded in a live computer. > > I have five computers in four physically distinct locations (three > are >> 100 miles apart) with enough storage to hold literally all > the computer-readable data I own. > > If you somehow think that tapes stored in a controlled vault is > more reliable, or less susceptible to bit rot than rotating > spindles, I believe you are wrong (and my every experience and > observation says otherwise). Only fiche and paper are statically > reliable. Your experience may differ, and you make very valid points and I dispute none of them. However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these discussions would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly so) when poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about all those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we need? I consistently read lots of data with nary a problem: 20-30 year old floppy disks (5.25" and 8"), 20-30 year old mag tapes, even 20 year old VHS tapes. And of course the punch cards don't count ;) I wouldn't doubt that newer media like CD-R has problems, but as long as you make incremental backups and also do as Tom says and keep your data "live" you should be fine. It also helps immensely in how you store your media. In a safe, dry, dark place that doesn't get wild temperature or humidity fluctuations: good deal. In a barn: not so good. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 10:00:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:00:25 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties on eBay. What would I need exactly? Ashley From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 17 10:08:15 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:08:15 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050317001137.U849@localhost> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> Message-ID: <4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > I'd like to offer that there is no such thing as archival computer > media. None. This is not disputed. > If you somehow think that tapes stored in a controlled vault is > more reliable, or less susceptible to bit rot than rotating > spindles, I believe you are wrong (and my every experience and > observation says otherwise). Only fiche and paper are statically > reliable. You are omitting cost. Tapes in a vault cost significantly less over 10 years than the cost of 4 live systems + replacement hard drives + network bandwidth + electricity for your method. Your method, unless I am misunderstanding you, has no revisioning. It protects against hardware failure, but how many revisions do you keep? What protects against you mistakenly deleting the wrong directory, etc.? I agree completely that archival data should be monitored in some fashion instead of being locked away forever. And, cost permitting, transferred to new media. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 17 10:12:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:12:44 -0500 Subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs In-Reply-To: <20050317005457.D30F173029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317110926.00b15178@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner may have mentioned these words: >It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > I'm having difficulty finding a PS/2 to AT keyboard adapter [1]. > > > > But that's just a connector change. Cut off the PS/2 mini-DIN plug and > > solder on a normal DIN plug, or vice versa. > > What? And risk one of my precious IBM keyboards?! They're getting harder >and harder to find nowadays (didn't find *any* at the last Ham fest [1]) and >what ones I have left I'm not willing to experiment on. > > But I've gotten a few solid leads on some adaptors (and yes, it's worth it >to me to buy the adaptors---nothing more dangerous than a software guy with >a soldering iron and all that. We keep 'em in stock here... Both ways, just in case. > Also, I've found a source for the IBM keyboards (AT or PS/2 style) still >being made (although without the IBM logo) > > http://www.pckeyboard.com/ > > but they're *expensive* (although well worth it). > > -spc (The most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10) The most I've paid is half that -- that's why I have several, "just in case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Mar 17 10:20:41 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:20:41 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question Message-ID: <469165a469017b.469017b469165a@optonline.net> > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different > varietieson eBay. What would I need exactly? > For re-forming the cap'sin my unit, my plan is to (hopefully this weekend), disconnect the screw terminals and use a programmable power supply [DC] applied direcly to the terminals. Current will be limited and the voltage slowly increased. If I can get the lab computer working, then it will be a nice slow smooth increase over a 12-24hr period. If I resort to adjusting the supplies manually I will end up making larger steps and watching the current..not as clean but still better than a full "bang". From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Mar 17 10:29:54 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:29:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties > on eBay. What would I need exactly? I am assuming here that you have removed the loads - all the other Stuff - and it's just the power supplies connected. There will be an overall power rating (usually in watts) for the whole unit, but the unloaded power supply will draw only a fraction of this. Variacs (powerstats, vari-trans, etc) are a class of transformer called 'autotransformers' - they are a single coil of wire with an adjustable 'tap' in the form of a moveable slider. The AC line goes from one end of the coil to the other, and the position of the tap determines how much power/voltage goes to the load. Variacs are wound for a certain maximum power level, and it is customary to specify them in amps. So in order to 'bring up' the power supplies, you need a Variac that will have the capacity to handle the current that the supply *itself* draws. And that is usually an amp or two for the bigger devices. There will be a bit of a surge, but you eliminate that by slowly turning up the voltage. There is the issue of how to know something is getting cranky during the turn-up process - the simplest method is probably to wire a common lamp of about 100 watts in *series* with one of the wires to the unit. If the lamp glows brightly right away, probably there's a short and you should investigate further. If the supply comes up with no problems (and is not loaded) then the 100W lamp should not glow very brightly, if at all. NOW- all that being said - if you get yourself a 10-amp Variac, it will serve you well in the future for Stuff like this. There are several designs out there that are 'packaged' - they have the Variac itself mounted in some kind of box with a nice cord and usually outlets to connect your load device to it. Some also have voltage and current meters - these are *very* handy and if you can find one that would be the best for this kind of work, IMHO. Here is the eBay listing of such a unit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50968&item=3880906377&rd=1 and right now it's at a decent price, too!! Cheers John From shanits at cygnus.stpp.soft.net Thu Mar 17 06:02:58 2005 From: shanits at cygnus.stpp.soft.net (Shaneit) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:32:58 +0530 Subject: CCTALK Message Format required Message-ID: <002501c52ae9$50bdcdd0$3a00a8c0@CYGNUS.COM> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, of late we have had been trying to develop a software for a London based music company which uses Jukeboxes that works on CC-TALK BACTA Protocol.We have tried our level best to find the Message Format which the cctalk understands both for serial and Parallel port interfaces , but unfortunately we couldnt find one.There were documents that made allusive expalination about the message formats but nothing in detail as to what all means in the colection of bytes that constitue a port communication. Can you on behalf of CCtalk respond back with a manual that addresses the same.Apart from that may I be obliged by one further level by you with any sample software program in any language that deals with CCTalk Messsge handling logic. I am eagerly looking forward for a positive response at your earliest convenience. Regards Shaneit Cygnus Software Pvt Ltd 568 Narayan Peth 4Th Floor Kesri Wada Pune - 411030 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 17 10:37:41 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:37:41 -0600 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317102605.0c022008@localhost> If you don't know how to wire it, you need one with a cord and outlets. The cord should end in a plug that matches the outlets in your part of the world, and the line (mains) voltage on the input side needs to match your line (mains) voltage. The outlet, or outlets, also need to look like the ones in your house or lab, but if the cord does... If you DO know how to wire it, then a difference of double (110vac variac in a 220vac part of the world, or vice versa) MAY be fixable by opening the thing up and changing the taps. I say MAY BE because some of them aren't. Aside from that, you'd need to know approximately how much juice you need, in amps, based on what you're going to plug into it. I see 10 amp units all over the place, that's a nice compact size for most anything except industrial stuff. In the US, most branch circuit breakers or fuses are 15 amps, (some 20) so you couldn't draw much more through your variac anyhow without blowing a fuse in your panel anyhow. Here's a monster I'd really love to own, man, metered, on-board breaker, 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11737&item=5963509609&rd=1 At 11:00 AM 3/17/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to >properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties >on eBay. What would I need exactly? > >Ashley At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 17 10:37:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:37:49 -0600 Subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317110926.00b15178@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317110926.00b15178@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4239B25D.2090201@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > The most I've paid is half that -- that's why I have several, "just in > case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts... Same here, although pckeyboard.com does have the only keyboard worth paying $100 for: The classic 101 with embedded trackpoint pointing device. These are a dream -- the trackpoint is very sensitive and responsive, and you never have to take your hands off of the keyboard. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Mar 17 10:59:27 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:59:27 -0500 Subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs Message-ID: <46b564f46b605f.46b605f46b564f@optonline.net> > ...and you never have to take your hands off of the keyboard. in most environments I work in the cord is not long enough to reach the mens room...so I don't think "never" really applies.... From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 17 11:26:01 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:26:01 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <5.1.0.14.2.20050317102605.0c022008@localhost> Message-ID: <002d01c52b16$64ea9fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! I now have Two nice machines (Tek scope, VT100) that blow fuses and have been dancing aound the issue to get one for a few weeks now. I'm not really an electronics guy but I've been led to believe that a variac is the single best thing to get to help remedy fuse blows. Any strong yes or no votes towards this decision? John A. From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 11:33:42 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1><009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <001b01c52b17$77fa9440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties > > on eBay. What would I need exactly? > There is the issue of how to know something is getting cranky during the > turn-up process - the simplest method is probably to wire a common lamp of > about 100 watts in *series* with one of the wires to the unit. If the lamp > glows brightly right away, probably there's a short and you should > investigate further. If the supply comes up with no problems (and is not > loaded) then the 100W lamp should not glow very brightly, if at all. > NOW- all that being said - if you get yourself a 10-amp Variac, it will > serve you well in the future for Stuff like this. There are several > designs out there that are 'packaged' - they have the Variac itself > mounted in some kind of box with a nice cord and usually outlets to > connect your load device to it. Some also have voltage and current meters > - these are *very* handy and if you can find one that would be the best > for this kind of work, IMHO. Here is the eBay listing of such a unit: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50968&item=3880906377&rd=1 > > and right now it's at a decent price, too!! Thanks for all the good info and the lessons on how to use this stuff. I looked at the one on ebay and it appears that the Watt meter does not work. Will that be a problem? Also, I did not see any place where I could plug a supply directly into this variac. I don't know if I'll need to do that. Based on all the info that you and others have provided, it looks like an option is to remove the capacitors from the unit and hook them up directly to the variac. Or is that not the right thing to do? Excuse me if I'm asking dumb questions, it's because I'm learning as I go. Ashley From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 11:25:56 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:25:56 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 11:00 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties > on eBay. What would I need exactly? If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors discussion was for electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run capacitors are AC. I'm not sure the reforming process would be the same (or if it is even possible). Anyone want to comment? -- TTFN - Guy From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 17 11:42:30 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:42:30 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <1111049206.8646.16.camel@linux.site> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> <1111049206.8646.16.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4239C186.3030104@mdrconsult.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 00:32 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > > This reminds me that I read not too long ago that many of the super > computer labs ship PCs between sites because it's *faster* to ship a > working PC with 1TB of disk containing data than it is to transfer it > over a long haul network (ie FedEx will get it there in ~24hrs...think > about the bandwidth required to transfer 1TB in ~24hrs). Not to mention > a whole lot cheaper! It also scales well!! :-) We have a client who owns what they call a "fleet" of SNAP servers that rotate between San Antonio, TX, Delaware (I think), and California. I haven't been involved with that contract in 3 years, but at that time they had about 16TB on the road on any given weekday. Doc From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Mar 17 11:44:25 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:44:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <002d01c52b16$64ea9fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <5.1.0.14.2.20050317102605.0c022008@localhost> <002d01c52b16$64ea9fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, John Allain wrote: >> 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! > > > I now have Two nice machines (Tek scope, VT100) that blow > fuses and have been dancing aound the issue to get one for a > few weeks now. I'm not really an electronics guy but I've been > led to believe that a variac is the single best thing to get to help > remedy fuse blows. Any strong yes or no votes towards this > decision? I have two or three of various sizes around the shop - they're very handy for a number of things apart from slow-starting of sleepy linear power supplies. Put 'variac' into eBay's search field - you'll see a good selection of them to choose from. One dealer has what looks like Taiwanese units of 20A capacity, and a meter and circuit breaker, for $110 but-it-now from Canada.... but there are a bunch of others just now. Also - fuses blowing in analog gear with linear (as opposed to 'switching' type power supplies can be caused by shorted rectifiers, couipling capacitors gone Horribly Wrong, a pinched wire that finally shorts - any number of things. One clue is how fast the fuse blows, and is it violent - is the inside of the fuse cartridge discolored and melted-looking, or is it just seperated? In other words, is it a hard, catastrophic short, or is an abnormally high load on the PS? To trouble shoot, you should be able to isolate the sections of the failing device from the power supply lines - as in basic triage for computers, add things back until the symptoms appear, et voila! there you are. Cheers John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 11:49:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:49:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care Message-ID: <200503171749.JAA26123@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One other thought is that one should have a way to transfer the raw data from what ever media you have. This allows one to have redundent information stored on the same media. If you depend on normal file systems, you run the risk of the file system not allowing you to access the data simply because a small part is damaged. I think most have been using normal file tools that are not dealing with things in this sense. Most of these types of systems have a weak link problem. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 17 11:55:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:55:50 +0000 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <001b01c52b17$77fa9440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <001b01c52b17$77fa9440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <1111082150.16570.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 12:33 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > Thanks for all the good info and the lessons on how to use this stuff. List wisdom poll - but isn't it also common practice to use an isolating transformer in series with the variac for safety reasons? In which case, you'll need one of those if you don't have one already (not been following the thread closeley, so you may have said you own one already) > Also, I did not see any place where I could plug a supply directly > into this variac. It looks identical to one we have at Bletchley actually, in which case the output is a socket on the opposite side of the case to the supply input cable (the latter being visible in the photo). I believe our one is rated at 6A, but I haven't tried it yet (and the only isolating transformer we have at present is only good for 3A anyway - we use that one with a matching 3A variac for testing stuff) cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 11:56:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question Message-ID: <200503171756.JAA26128@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ashley Carder" > >I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to >properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties >on eBay. What would I need exactly? > >Ashley > > Hi You can always use a voltage source and a limiting resistor. You don't need a variac ( although they are real handy ). Dwight From spc at conman.org Thu Mar 17 12:01:03 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:01:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kinda OT: Keyboard Adapters for PCs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317110926.00b15178@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 17, 2005 11:12:44 AM Message-ID: <20050317180104.7390273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: > > We keep 'em in stock here... Both ways, just in case. I have quite a number of them too. > > -spc (The most I've ever paid for an IBM keyboard was $10) > > The most I've paid is half that -- that's why I have several, "just in > case." A few don't work right, so I have lots of spare parts... Well, $10 was teh *most*, not the average. The $10 IBM keyboard (which I'm using now) black, with the mouse between the 'G' and 'H' keys (a very small joystick that looks like an eraser [1]) with the mouse buttons below the space bar. Most of the rest I paid around $1 to $2 for at past Ham Fests [2]. -spc (Now, if only laptops would have better keyboards ... ) [1] Well, on mine it's an actual eraser, as the original red ... um ... nipple? fell apart. [2] http://boston.conman.org/2005/02/05.1 - the most recent Miami Ham Fest and boy, was it a disapointment ... From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 17 12:08:06 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apology to the list In-Reply-To: <0503161508.AA14273@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503161508.AA14273@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050317100330.L849@localhost> Thanks Michael for this. It takes guts and a bit of moral vigor to apologize. No hard feelings here, certainly. Thanks! tomj On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 05 15:08:05 GMT > From: Michael Sokolov > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Apology to the list > > Dear Fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > I want to apologize for my recent behavior here. I'm sorry that I was > pushed over the edge by John's innocent suggestions of using some more > modern technology. I was clearly in the wrong state of mind when I wrote > that the purpose of my life was in using old technology and nothing new > and that I would shed blood (whether my own or anyone else's) over it. > > Of course no piece of technology, old or new, is worth shedding blood over. > I don't know what came over me when I wrote that. Those who know me more > closely know that I've been leaning more and more over to alternative > spirituality and metaphysics and that technology of any kind, old or now, > currently plays a very small part in my life. So certainly I'm not going to > kill over it. > > But I promise I won't bring up any more off-topic stuff here. Technology > can be fun, and even I am open to some modernisation. Like I'm trying to > transition from a VT320 to a VXT X11 terminal. To bring this back on topic, > I'll soon be working on a MOP server for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus for netbooting > these VXTs, and getting X11R4 to run on my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hosts. Fun > fun fun. > > Blessed Be everyone, > MS > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Mar 17 12:10:00 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Your method, unless I am misunderstanding you, has no revisioning. It protects > against hardware failure, but how many revisions do you keep? What protects > against you mistakenly deleting the wrong directory, etc.? Procedures. The mainframe folks have been doing this for alost 40 years (mostly) flawlessly. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 12:10:20 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:10:20 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <4239C186.3030104@mdrconsult.com> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> <1111049206.8646.16.camel@linux.site> <4239C186.3030104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:42:30 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 00:32 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > This reminds me that I read not too long ago that many of the super > > computer labs ship PCs between sites because it's *faster* to ship a > > working PC with 1TB of disk containing data than it is to transfer it > We have a client who owns what they call a "fleet" of SNAP servers > time they had about 16TB on the road on any given weekday. Yikes, brings new meaning to the term "Our System Crashed." Wonder what the insurance is on something like that.... -dhbarr. From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 17 12:20:10 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:20:10 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1><009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: From: "Guy Sotomayor" > On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 11:00 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties > > on eBay. What would I need exactly? > > If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors discussion was for > electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run capacitors are AC. I'm > not sure the reforming process would be the same (or if it is even > possible). > > Anyone want to comment? I thought the basic structure of the AC electrolytics was that of two matched DC electrolytics wired in series. If this is true, then I suppose a current limited AC supply might be able to reform them? Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 17 12:24:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:24:41 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1><009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <001b01c52b17$77fa9440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: From: "Ashley Carder" > Thanks for all the good info and the lessons on how to use this stuff. > I looked at the one on ebay and it appears that the Watt meter does > not work. Will that be a problem? Also, I did not see any place where > I could plug a supply directly into this variac. I don't know if I'll need > to do that. Based on all the info that you and others have provided, > it looks like an option is to remove the capacitors from the unit and hook > them up directly to the variac. Or is that not the right thing to do? > Excuse me if I'm asking dumb questions, it's because I'm learning as I go. As I understand it, the right tool for an electrolytic that has been removed from the equipment is a current-limited supply. I think the variac is for attempting to reform them in place, by reducing the AC line voltage to the power supply that they are a part of. Vince From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 17 12:27:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:27:18 -0600 Subject: 8" drive support on PC's References: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218854CDC@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Message-ID: <001001c52b1e$f770df70$1692d6d1@randylaptop> On the Nec 765 (Intel 8272) the direction pin is also use for reduced write current (TG43). When the step line pulses the direction pin controls the direction. All other times it is high if the track counter is 43 or less, low if the track counter is greater than 43. The current disk controllers are based on the 765. Does anyone know if the direction pin does the same on the newer clone chips? I have started looking at the datasheets but so far I have not found any reference to that function on "modern" parts. If it's true then the 34 to 50 pin cable I use (and others) can be made to include TG43 without using an adapter like FDADAP. It may turn out some do and some don't but since everyone is basically using the same licensed core I would expect all newer chips to act the same. The question is was TG43 support kept from the original 765? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 17 12:25:21 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <200503171411.GAA12876@floodgap.com> References: <200503171411.GAA12876@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4239CB91.5080902@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >What other multitasking environments, Unixy or not, would be practical on a >PDP-8 with 16kW or less? Or other similar mainframe? > > > Get a 6809... and run this ... UniFlex It may be more than 16kb but may give some ideas. http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ >Thanks for all the suggestions; I should have been much more specific about >what I was after. > > Ben alias woodelf. PS. Somebody please mirror the site ... Source code is rare. From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 17 12:39:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:39:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bootstrapping modern file-transfer tools... In-Reply-To: <200503171419.j2HEJTdJ028401@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20050310200408.D942@localhost> <200503171419.j2HEJTdJ028401@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20050317103905.R849@localhost> Thanks!!! Good find! On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Dennis Boone wrote: > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/rsx84a/356040/aosker.rf > > Also URL hack; the doc and help files are there. > > De > From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 17 12:52:09 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:52:09 -0600 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <002d01c52b16$64ea9fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <5.1.0.14.2.20050317102605.0c022008@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050317123212.0c01d700@localhost> Plugging them into a variac won't address the primary issue of What's Wrong With This Widget? It can help you find something that's getting real hot if you can switch the unit on at about 60-70 volts and ramp it up slowly, if that doesn't blow the fuse. But I'd check the obvious stuff first, and then troubleshoot the power supply, before trying the above. Check the blatantly obvious first: 1. Right fuse? 1a. Right current? 1b. Right type (slow blow vs. fast blow?) 2. Shorted big filter caps or diodes in the power supply? 3. Lost screws or other metal parts loose inside? Don't laugh. I've seen it. Item two is easy enough to find, but only in a relatively simple power supply. If the PS is linear, not a switcher, I'd try disconnecting it from everything else and troubleshooting it in isolation. If it's a switcher, it's much to difficult (for me) to repair. Switchers have small transformers (proportionate to the current they produce, and employ a high frequency oscillator. You shouldn't run a switcher without a load. You may let all the smoke out. For linear power supplies, try to isolate the power supply circuitry from the rest of the unit. Find the transformer, see if the input and output voltages (AC) are reasonable. Should be, transformer failure mode in 99.999% of cases is no juice at all. Can you find diodes? Or a bridge rectifier? It is any good? A shorted diode or bridge will kill the fuse. You might have to unsolder one end of the diode to test it. Clip something metalic onto the wire lead near the diode so the heat from desoldering it doesn't do further damage. If you don't have any clamp-on heatsinks, loop a rubber band around the handles of a small needle nose pliers and use that. Classic linear power supples may have a grounded center tap on the transformer, or not, perhaps two diodes, more likely four or a bridge. Look for a capacitor or several on the output of the rectification stage. Depending on what sort of regulation circuitry follows, they may/may not have big ugly electrolytics on the output of the rectifiers. If you can unsolder or unscrew one lead on the capacitors, if present, try metering them for shorts or really low impedance that doesn't float as the ohms battery in your meter charges the cap. If you can find the outputs of the power supply, and you've been living right and they are all socketed, and this is a linear, and you can plug it in and run it unplugged from the rest of the unit, and have proper voltage on all the outputs of the PS, then obviously something is smoked further into the unit. Bad luck. Look for evidence of heat damage (fried components, burned printed circuit board, etc.). At 12:26 PM 3/17/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! > > >I now have Two nice machines (Tek scope, VT100) that blow >fuses and have been dancing aound the issue to get one for a >few weeks now. I'm not really an electronics guy but I've been >led to believe that a variac is the single best thing to get to help >remedy fuse blows. Any strong yes or no votes towards this >decision? > >John A. [Computing] I have been told that _Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology_ was required reading at the Xerox PARC lab where OOP was invented, but this may be merely an urban legend. -- wilcoxb at cs.colorado.edu (Bryce Wilcox) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 13:07:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:07:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question Message-ID: <200503171907.LAA26152@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Allain" > >> 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! > > >I now have Two nice machines (Tek scope, VT100) that blow >fuses and have been dancing aound the issue to get one for a >few weeks now. I'm not really an electronics guy but I've been >led to believe that a variac is the single best thing to get to help >remedy fuse blows. Any strong yes or no votes towards this >decision? > >John A. > Hi If you've hit a capacitor hard enough to blow a fuse, it is not likely to recover through reforming. Reforming must be done before applying full voltage. Most issues of blowing fuses can be located by isolation and use of an ohm meter. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 13:11:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:11:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question Message-ID: <200503171911.LAA26157@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Guy Sotomayor" > >On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 11:00 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: >> I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to >> properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties >> on eBay. What would I need exactly? > >If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors discussion was for >electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run capacitors are AC. I'm >not sure the reforming process would be the same (or if it is even >possible). > >Anyone want to comment? >-- > >TTFN - Guy > > Hi AC electrolytics can be similarly reformed, using a current limited AC source. Many run capacitors are electrolytic but may also be large oil and paper. Most anything over 10 mf is probably an AC electrolytic. Dwight From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Mar 17 13:23:15 2005 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:23:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <001b01c52b17$77fa9440$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: Ashley Carder wrote, in part: > Based on all the info that you and others have provided, > it looks like an option is to remove the capacitors from the unit and hook > them up directly to the variac. Or is that not the right thing to do? Maybe I've become confused along the way - it's definitely happened before - but if you're looking at reforming electrolytic capacitors, I believe hooking them directly to the variac is definitely _not_ what you want. The idea is to feed the cap a trickle of DC current to get all the happy little electrolytes to slowly rebond themselves to the capacitor's plating, and as you get part of the cap restored you can then apply greater voltage so more rebonding can take place until eventually the capacitor is reformed to its full rating. There seem to be two standard ways of doing this, which may perhaps be creating some confusion since it's not always obvious which is being discussed; so for clarity I'll arbitrarily call them the bench method and the variac method. (Note to rest of list: if I basically screw up all the details on this, please tell me. I'm still new at it myself. ) The Bench Method: Remove the capacitor, hook it up to a variable-voltage DC bench power supply, find a way to limit the amount of current (either a current-limiting power supply, or a big fat resistor), and slowly (e.g., over the course of several long hours or days) turn the voltage output up on the power supply: Mains --> DC Power Supply --> Current-Limiting Resistor --> Cap ^-AC ^-low-voltage DC ^-low-current DC The Variac Method: Since cap reformation is usually an issue with old power supplies, and the power supplies are specifically converting AC voltages to DC, you can use the variac to supply the entire unit with ridiculously low AC voltage and let the power supply figure it out for itself. The variac voltage is gradually turned up over hours or days as before, and the capacitors in the old power supply all reform from the same source. (Doing this means one should also disconnect the power supply from the rest of the equipment, and put some sort of dummy load in its place, so you don't inadvertantly fry your classic equipment.) Mains --> Variac --> Old Power Supply --> Caps ^-AC ^-low-voltage AC ^-converts to DC internally The variac method is a little easier because you don't have to dig all the caps out of the machine, and you can skimp on the math; but it's less precise, harder to monitor and has the capacity to destroy more equipment much faster. I've done it once, and it worked, but as I've learned more I don't think I want to try using that method again. :) > Excuse me if I'm asking dumb questions, it's because I'm learning as I go. Yeah, well, as my numerous disclaimers above may indicate, _I'm_ sure as hell no expert. :) :) :) -O.- From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Mar 17 13:23:58 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:23:58 -0500 Subject: Age, My computing history. Message-ID: <4239D94E.6000608@splab.cas.neu.edu> For those that are interested. I sent my age previously, and was guilty of waiting too long. Hardware experience: somewhat chronological Some IBM EAM (machines) with the big patch boards Control Data Corp 6600 PDP 11/10 PDP-12 PDP-8 IBM 360 CDC 7200 IBM 370 PDP 11/34 PDP 11/44 PDP 11/60 Data General Nova 3 DG Nova 4 Some S100 bus stuff (Imsai, Altair, etc) Some STD bus stuff DEC LSI-11 DEC LSI-11/2 DEC LSI-11/23 Rockwell 6502 Zilog Z80 Intel 8080/8085 Zilog Z8 Motorola 68008 IBM PC IBM PC/XT DEC LSI-11/73 IBM PC/AT Basic Stamp 486, pentium, etc. Programming experience (not just using equipment) Assemblers: IBM 360 and 370 DEC PDP 8 and 12 DEC PDP-11 CDC 6600/7200 (Cyber 7200) Nova 3 and 4 6502 8080/8085 Z8 Z80 68000 Basic Stamp Higher level languages: (some not so proficient and some pretty forgotten by now) Cobol Fortran Basic, Visual Basic Dibol Pascal Turbo C C, C+, Visual C Java Perl Joe Heck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 17 13:27:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:27:02 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> <1111049206.8646.16.camel@linux.site> <4239C186.3030104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4239DA06.1060000@mdrconsult.com> David H. Barr wrote: > On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:42:30 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> >>>This reminds me that I read not too long ago that many of the super >>>computer labs ship PCs between sites because it's *faster* to ship a >>>working PC with 1TB of disk containing data than it is to transfer it > > >> We have a client who owns what they call a "fleet" of SNAP servers > > >>time they had about 16TB on the road on any given weekday. > > > Yikes, brings new meaning to the term "Our System Crashed." Wonder > what the insurance is on something like that.... The insurance in that case was basically irrelevant. Their insurance would cover the hardware replacement costs, period. That same company looked at insuring 400TB of current data (maybe 15% dynamic, but all of it needed online). The bottom line was that assigning a meaningful value is not possible. Even in terms of lost revenue, the formulae were, in Lloyd's of London's words, "necessarily subjective and inconclusive". Lloyd's were of course willing to insure against data loss anyway, for any amount the client wanted to set on it, at about 1/3 that amount per year. $client declined. FWIW, I don't agree that it's not possible to maintain reliable data backups. You can argue that they're never 100% foolproof, but nothing ever is or will be. My company does a lot of DRM and data protection (we're a Tivoli sales, service & education partner). I get to see and hear how a lot of shops handle their backups. Basically, it boils down to redundancy (with geographic separation), versioning and revisioning, and monitoring. Within sensible limits, the choice of media is entirely optional. Doc From rcini at optonline.net Thu Mar 17 13:44:10 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:44:10 -0500 Subject: S-100 SASI setup info needed Message-ID: <3ecffae3ecd20e.3ecd20e3ecffae@optonline.net> All: I'm longing to add a hard disk system to the Altair emulator. I came across a 3-part series in BYTE (March - May 1983) for a host-computer adapter manufactured by ASC Associates connected to a XEBEC-S1410 based 10mb SASI Winchester drive. In part 3 of the article, BYTE printes the complete CBIOS, but the article stops in the middle of the code around page 400 of the issue. I have a nearly-complete series of BYTEs and I haven't found a reference to the code in any subsequent issue. So, here's the question...does anyone have a copy of the complete CBIOS from the article *or* have a CBIOS for another XEBEC-based setup? Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Rich From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 17 13:52:19 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:52:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503171955.OAA13287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these discussions > would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly so) when > poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about all > those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we > need? In this vein, I recently dragged out an old Sun QIC drive to read a friend's tapes. The tapes must have been written something like 15 to 20 years ago, probably taken moderately but not especially good care of since then, and I can't recall any problems. (It was only several tens of megabytes, so it was no problem to shovel it around today once I had the bits on disk.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 17 14:04:37 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:04:37 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: Cameron> Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking Cameron> environment that will run in 16K or less, preferably with Cameron> available source? Does it have to be Unix? There are some real-time OSs that fit in that sort of space. You might take a look at MicroC/OS -- which is open source and documented in full in the book by its creator, Jean Labrosse. The only drawback I noticed is that it has the somewhat peculiar limitation that every task has a different priority, which is just the opposite of what I want. Another possibility would be to use FORTH. That had (cooperative) multitasking support for a very long time. Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code your own. It looks like this: for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } and each task simply does stuff for a while, then returns when it has nothing left to do or when it's time to give another task a shot at the CPU. That sort of system is very simple and very reliable. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 14:06:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:06:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive support on PC's Message-ID: <200503172006.MAA26190@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >On the Nec 765 (Intel 8272) the direction pin is also use for reduced write >current (TG43). > >When the step line pulses the direction pin controls the direction. All >other times it is high if the track counter is 43 or less, low if the track >counter is greater than 43. > >The current disk controllers are based on the 765. > >Does anyone know if the direction pin does the same on the newer clone >chips? I have started looking at the datasheets but so far I have not found >any reference to that function on "modern" parts. > >If it's true then the 34 to 50 pin cable I use (and others) can be made to >include TG43 without using an adapter like FDADAP. > >It may turn out some do and some don't but since everyone is basically using >the same licensed core I would expect all newer chips to act the same. The >question is was TG43 support kept from the original 765? > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Hi Randy See web page: http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html You'll note that it mentions that a normal PC does not supply the TG43 signal. Their adapter includes what looks like a uP to keep track of the current track to generate this signal for writing to 8 inch disk. If you were doing software to write 8 inch disk, I would guess that you could double up this function on the step direction wire. There is otherwise no signal to do this for you. Don Maslin's connection was primarily to be used for reading 9 inch disk. It may also be assuming that the drive has a built in track 43 sensor. I think this is were the confusion over pin 2 comes in. This is usually uses as a speed control on PC's but historically it was a write current control. Dwight From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 14:15:51 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:15:51 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: Message-ID: <003301c52b2e$1e04d3d0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Your explanations of the two methods all seems to make sense to me. But then again, I'm too new at this to know if it's good or bad! > The variac method is a little easier because you don't have to dig all > the caps out of the machine, and you can skimp on the math; but it's less > precise, harder to monitor and has the capacity to destroy more equipment > much faster. I've done it once, and it worked, but as I've learned more I > don't think I want to try using that method again. :) I've always just plugged the stuff in and it hasn't exploded (yet!). > > Excuse me if I'm asking dumb questions, it's because I'm learning as I go. > > Yeah, well, as my numerous disclaimers above may indicate, _I'm_ sure as > hell no expert. :) :) :) But I'm a dummy, just tryng to graduate to something else beyond dummy. I have a long ways to go to become an expert. There probably aren't enough years left in my lifespan to allow me to become an expert, but I may be able to get beyond dummy some time during my lifetime. Ashley From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 17 14:14:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:14:57 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix References: <42393CE7.1000201@oldskool.org> <200503171411.GAA12876@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16953.58689.470775.313868@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: Cameron> Thanks for the suggestions -- maybe I should be a little Cameron> more specific. Jim L suggested Contiki, but actually Cameron> Contiki is precisely *not* what I'm after (even though it's Cameron> a quasi-multitasking environment for small systems); it's Cameron> unsuitable for the task because: Cameron> - source is in C (I should have specified I want assembler Cameron> if possible) - it needs more than 16K to be useful anyway - Cameron> it doesn't have a "classic" feel to it - it's not Cameron> preemptively multitasking You didn't explain why it has to be preemptive. If possible, non-preemptive is often better. If you need pre-emptive, an RTOS is likely to be a good choice. uC/OS is one; there are other open source RTOS. Typically they will be in C. So compile it -- by hand if you don't trust the compiler. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Mar 17 14:26:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:26:25 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> <4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4239E7F1.4000901@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > And, cost permitting, > transferred to new media. As has been pointed out, that's rarely an issue in production environments. Info gets migrated to new storage _formats_ long before the current media's integrity comes into play. Sometimes that migration can be interesting. When I went to work at University of Texas, my department had a large file cabinet full of archives. A lot of that dept's publications are funded by state and federal money, so the research lab is required to archive all files and information associated with subsidized publications for 40 years. The first problem was that almost all their archives were on QIC-80 and QIC120, and the only tape drive in the building was a 4mm DDS drive. I had to go over to Surplus and scrounge a floppy-interface Q120 drive. Then I found that the first problem wasn't the main problem - nobody in the building knew how those tapes were made. Fortunately the QIC120 drive was in a 486 system, and the Surplus guy wouldn't let me strip it, so I ended up with the Jumbo software on its disk and that was what I needed. Then the other issue was the archived files themselves. Some of it was in PageMaker, some in Wordstar, some in MS-DOS .prn files, and a lot of it in AutoCAD r12 and a freeware DOS GIS tool whose name I've mercifully forgotten. I spent several hundred hours sorting backup sets, restoring them to disk, migrating files into current formats, and then archiving both current and original copies to 4mm tape. It made for some very soothing afternoons, hidden in my office. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 17 14:31:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:31:00 +0000 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1111091460.16570.58.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 11:23 -0800, O. Sharp wrote: > The Variac Method: Since cap reformation is usually an issue with old > power supplies, and the power supplies are specifically converting AC > voltages to DC, you can use the variac to supply the entire unit with > ridiculously low AC voltage and let the power supply figure it out for > itself. Caveat being that it'll only work with linear supplies, not switchers of course :-) (I know we're really only talking about linears here - but just for clarity!) cheers J. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 17 14:34:19 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:34:19 +0000 Subject: CCTALK Message Format required In-Reply-To: <002501c52ae9$50bdcdd0$3a00a8c0@CYGNUS.COM> References: <002501c52ae9$50bdcdd0$3a00a8c0@CYGNUS.COM> Message-ID: <4239E9CB.3050400@gjcp.net> Shaneit wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi, > of late we have had been trying to develop a software for a London based music company which uses Jukeboxes that works on CC-TALK BACTA Protocol.We have tried our level best to find the Message Format which the cctalk understands both for serial and Parallel port interfaces , but unfortunately we couldnt find one.There were documents that made allusive expalination about the message formats but nothing in detail as to what all means in the colection of bytes that constitue a port communication. Can you on behalf of CCtalk respond back with a manual that addresses the same.Apart from that may I be obliged by one further level by you with any sample software program in any language that deals with CCTalk Messsge handling logic. > I am eagerly looking forward for a positive response at your earliest convenience. > > Regards > Shaneit > Cygnus Software Pvt Ltd > 568 Narayan Peth > 4Th Floor Kesri Wada > Pune - 411030 > You haven't read very much of this mailing list, have you? Gordon. From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 17 14:41:12 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:41:12 -0600 Subject: S-100 SASI setup info needed References: <3ecffae3ecd20e.3ecd20e3ecffae@optonline.net> Message-ID: <002801c52b31$ac389b70$383dd7d1@randylaptop> From: Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:44 PM > All: > > I'm longing to add a hard disk system to the Altair emulator. I came > across a 3-part series in BYTE (March - May 1983) for a host-computer > adapter manufactured by ASC Associates connected to a XEBEC-S1410 based > 10mb SASI Winchester drive. > > In part 3 of the article, BYTE printes the complete CBIOS, but the > article stops in the middle of the code around page 400 of the issue. I > have a nearly-complete series of BYTEs and I haven't found a reference to > the code in any subsequent issue. > > So, here's the question...does anyone have a copy of the complete CBIOS > from the article *or* have a CBIOS for another XEBEC-based setup? > > Any help is appreciated. Thanks. > > Rich If you send me what you have I can see about re-creating it but a better idea might be to emulate the GIDE. Howard Harte's SuperIO controller is another option and the full CBIOS is available, it is extremely similar to the GIDE. I may have some Big-Board II info around, it used the XEBEC-based controller. In real life many found the Adaptec 4000 series to be better since in real life it remapped bad sectors out and there was an RLL version. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 17 14:56:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:56:13 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <4239E7F1.4000901@mdrconsult.com> References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost> <4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> <4239E7F1.4000901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4239EEED.8030406@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> And, cost permitting, transferred to new media. > > As has been pointed out, that's rarely an issue in production > environments. Info gets migrated to new storage _formats_ long before > the current media's integrity comes into play. Sorry, I implied new formats when I wrote "media" :-) My bad... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From willisjo at zianet.com Thu Mar 17 15:35:30 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:35:30 -0700 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <200503171955.OAA13287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200503171955.OAA13287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050317213530.64885.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Perhaps it's just me, but I have stacks upon stacks of 5.25" floppy disks that have been around since ~1981, still used regularly, and have yet to see one fail. Mostly Janus, Nashua, and Verbatim DataLife DS/DDs. However, it seems to take only my being within 15 feet of a 3.5" floppy to corrupt the data on it, even if it's a brand new disk... However, I am a tad concerned about what will happen to our prized hobby when such items as 9-track tapes, TK50s, and TU58 DECtape-IIs truly become absolute unobtainium. I suppose our good friend Warren will probably continue supplying us with VTserver for console boot media, but there's just nothing quite like loading up The Real Thing (tm)... A huge part of the retrocomputing experience for me, personally. Especially 9-track open-reel tapes... I'm not even going to go into the availability of such items as RD54s and RA81s... too depressing for a rainy windy afternoon in the southwest... John der Mouse writes: >> However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these discussions >> would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly so) when >> poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about all >> those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we >> need? John P. Willis From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 17 16:04:36 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:04:36 -0600 Subject: 8" drive support on PC's References: <200503172006.MAA26190@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002001c52b3d$54765dd0$d53dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 2:06 PM > >From: "Randy McLaughlin" >> >>On the Nec 765 (Intel 8272) the direction pin is also use for reduced >>write >>current (TG43). >> >>When the step line pulses the direction pin controls the direction. All >>other times it is high if the track counter is 43 or less, low if the >>track >>counter is greater than 43. >> >>The current disk controllers are based on the 765. >> >>Does anyone know if the direction pin does the same on the newer clone >>chips? I have started looking at the datasheets but so far I have not >>found >>any reference to that function on "modern" parts. >> >>If it's true then the 34 to 50 pin cable I use (and others) can be made to >>include TG43 without using an adapter like FDADAP. >> >>It may turn out some do and some don't but since everyone is basically >>using >>the same licensed core I would expect all newer chips to act the same. >>The >>question is was TG43 support kept from the original 765? >> >> >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com > > Hi Randy > See web page: > > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > > You'll note that it mentions that a normal PC does not > supply the TG43 signal. Their adapter includes what looks like > a uP to keep track of the current track to generate this > signal for writing to 8 inch disk. > If you were doing software to write 8 inch disk, I would guess that > you could double up this function on the step direction wire. > There is otherwise no signal to do this for you. > Don Maslin's connection was primarily to be used for reading > 9 inch disk. It may also be assuming that the drive has a built > in track 43 sensor. > I think this is were the confusion over pin 2 comes in. This > is usually uses as a speed control on PC's but historically > it was a write current control. > Dwight There is confusion over pin 2 use at least in my head. The first use was with the SA800 interface for reduced write current. Today on the 34 pin connector that is what it is now used for even for 3.5" drives. Traditionally the write current line was used completely differently from how it is used today. Traditionally it changed according to where on the disk the data is being written, for today's drives it is for the entire media. I finally found in one of the Micro-Cornucopia magazines more references to the 5.25" HD drives stating that they were designed to be two speed specific brands are listed. That with low speed they acted as quad density drives and with high speed they were similar to 8" drives. Twenty years after the fact it is difficult to find the truth about something no longer greatly used. That is a side issue to my question about 765 TG43 controls. On a real 765 it generates the reduced write signal and outputs it on the same controller pin as the direction signal. Today the 765 is emulated via VHDL code and I am curious as to whether the TG43 logic was kept. I can and will experiment on my systems but I would like to know if others are familiar with the issue. Obviously all PC's that use a real 765/8272 does generate the signal and does bring it out to the 34 pin connector, it just happened to be hidden on pin 18. I question if it is still there? The FDADAP states that "This signal is not normally provided by PC FDCs" obviously at the very least many did maybe all. The FDADAP does more than just generate TG43 it also greatly simplifies wiring. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 16:14:37 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <34281.64.139.41.130.1111097677.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ashley wrote: > I read the page on reforming capacitors. Quite a good document. Now > I just need to take a refresher physics class so I can totally understand > it. When the electrolytic capacitor is first manufactured, it has to go through a "forming" process to grow a thin layer of oxide on one electrode. This oxide layer is the dielectric. It is formed by application of current-limited DC. If the capacitor is unused for an extended period of time, the oxide layer breaks down. At that point if a DC voltage is applied that is not limited to a relatively low current, it will punch through at the point that the oxide is the thinnest, resulting in permanent damage. Provided that the capacitor has not failed either by leaking, the electrolyte drying out, or punch-through, applying current-limited DC will reform the oxide layer, restoring the capacitor to a useful state. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 16:18:35 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <34580.64.139.41.130.1111097915.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ashley wrote: > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different varieties > on eBay. What would I need exactly? If you're talking about the motor run capacitors, I don't think powering the TU56 up on a variac will reform them, because they're not wired in the same manner as power supply filter capacitors. I strongly recommend reforming them separately, for which you don't need a variac, but just a DC power supply and a series resistor (or a DC power supply with adjustable current limit). If you do buy a variac, be forewarned that it is NOT an isolation transform. It is an adjustable autotransformer, which means that the primary and secondary are actually the same winding, and there is no electrical isolation between the input and output. Therefore you have to be just as careful with things powered from a variac as with things powered directly by line voltage. Eric From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 17 16:10:57 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:10:57 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Used IBM equipment in Green Bay, WI USA Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050317161033.04f8eb78@mail> >Subject: Used IBM equipment in Green Bay >Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:43:34 -0500 >From: "Justin Nemeth" >To: > >John, >I have a customer in Green Bay looking to get sell, scrap, get rid of the following equipment I think they are fairly large boxes.. > >Let me know whether or not your interested > >Thanks > >Regards, >Justin Nemeth >ePlus Group, Inc. (Midwest) >Ph:630-790-2203 > > >Equipment: >IBM 3745-210 Communication Controller -- > with the following features: > (8) 1561 - Channel Adapters > (2) 4720 - Low Speed Scanner > (1) 4770 - Token-Ring Adapter Type 2 > (1) 4900 - Lic Unit > (6) 4911 - Lic Type 1 > (5) 4931 - Lic Type 3 > (1) 7100 - Storage Incement 4 MB > (2) 9720 - Basic Low speed Scanner > (1) 9763 - Tsst Board With Tra Option > (8) 9911 - Basic Lic Type 1 > > Approximate Date Available - April 2005 > > (2) IBM 9393-T82 Virtual Array Units > (1) 9393-X82 Virtual Array Unit > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 16:28:25 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:28:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <469165a469017b.469017b469165a@optonline.net> References: <469165a469017b.469017b469165a@optonline.net> Message-ID: <35449.64.139.41.130.1111098505.squirrel@64.139.41.130> dvcorbin wrote: > For re-forming the cap'sin my unit, my plan is to (hopefully this > weekend), disconnect the screw terminals and use a programmable power > supply [DC] applied direcly to the terminals. Current will be limited and > the voltage slowly increased. If I can get the lab computer working, then > it will be a nice slow smooth increase over a 12-24hr period. If I resort > to adjusting the supplies manually I will end up making larger steps and > watching the current..not as clean but still better than a full "bang". As long as there is an adjustable current limit, all you have to do is set the voltage to the rated capacitor voltage (or perhaps 10-20% higher, but some people dispute that, even though the manufacturer forms the capacitor to a much higher voltage), and set the current limit such that the capacitor cannot dissipate enough power to be damaged. This can be computed based on the rated leakage current. There is no need to programmatically control the supply voltage; the current limit will cause the voltage to ramp up at whatever rate maintains that current. Once the voltage reaches the voltage limit, watch the actual current being drawn. It should decline to below the rated leakage current. If the capacitor is in good condition, the initial rampup may occur fairly quickly, i.e., a few minutes. If it needs a lot of reforming, it may take hours. I wouldn't normally expect a capacitor that took more than a few hours to succeed at reforming. We used voltage programming on the PDP-1 project for two reasons, neither of which is strictly necessary. 1) The allowable reformation current is higher at lower voltages, e.g., 2V @ 30mA is the same power as 4V @ 15mA. However, setting the current limit as appropriate at a higher voltage, it will still reform properly unless the capacitor is in very poor condition, in which case it's probably not recoverable anyhow. 2) We wanted to log a lot of data on the reformation process. Although it's not clear that we've learned too much new or useful information from the logs. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 16:31:42 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <35815.64.139.41.130.1111098702.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Guy wrote: > If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors discussion was for > electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run capacitors are AC. I'm > not sure the reforming process would be the same (or if it is even > possible). Good point. I knew they weren't wired right across a DC output of a supply, so the variac approach won't work, but I didn't think about the use of AC capacitors. I don't think it's possible to reform AC electrolytics at all, but I'm not an expert on such things. Eric From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 15:55:22 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:55:22 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <42375FB5.2060203@mcdermith.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> <42375FB5.2060203@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <4239FCCA.1010503@sbcglobal.net> I never added mine to the list. Add one more to the 30 group. Got into this when I got my paws on a DEC Multia. I should check to see if that's on topic or not... Then there was the VaxStation 3100 m38, a DEC 3000/400, a Dec 4000 that I almost took home from work... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 17 17:09:30 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:09:30 GMT Subject: 8" drive support on PC's In-Reply-To: "Randy McLaughlin" "Re: 8" drive support on PC's" (Mar 17, 16:04) References: <200503172006.MAA26190@clulw009.amd.com> <002001c52b3d$54765dd0$d53dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <10503172309.ZM17867@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 17 2005, 16:04, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > There is confusion over pin 2 use at least in my head. The first use was > with the SA800 interface for reduced write current. Today on the 34 pin > connector that is what it is now used for even for 3.5" drives. > Traditionally the write current line was used completely differently from > how it is used today. Traditionally it changed according to where on the > disk the data is being written, for today's drives it is for the entire > media. Yes, that's right. > That is a side issue to my question about 765 TG43 controls. > > On a real 765 it generates the reduced write signal and outputs it on the > same controller pin as the direction signal. > > Today the 765 is emulated via VHDL code and I am curious as to whether the > TG43 logic was kept. I can and will experiment on my systems but I would > like to know if others are familiar with the issue. > > Obviously all PC's that use a real 765/8272 does generate the signal and > does bring it out to the 34 pin connector, it just happened to be hidden on > pin 18. I question if it is still there? Well, I looked at the data sheet for the WD37C65, which used to be fairly common, and the answer is "sort of". Pin 39 is the one that you'd be interested in. It's an output labelled "/RWC,/RPM" and when it's low, and the controller is in Base Mode, it says it causes a reduced write current when bit density is increased towards the inner tracks, being active when track > 28 (I think that refers to 40-track drives, which would be 56 on an 80-track drive). This is very similar to to the TG43 signal, except for being relative to a different track, but it's not on the same pin as /DIRECTION (Pin 31). I can't help wondering if "28" is a misprint for "23" or something like that, but I checked two separate printings of the data sheet and both said "28". It also says this function changes when in AT/EISA mode (it then becomes completely under program control, and appears to be intended to be used to set the density and/or speed for the whole disk) :-( However, if you have control over the FDC rather than letting the BIOS or DOS do it for you, you could make it do what you wanted. I also looked at the Intel 82078 FDC, which is a successor to the 8272, in either a 64-pin QFP package or a 44-pin PLCC, either 5V or 3.3V,. and it was an antecedent of many of the multi-I/O chips. Unfortunately it doesn't give enough detail. Lastly, I looked at the NatSemi DP8473. It has /DIRECTION on pin 4 (PLCC version), and /LC (low current) on pin 51. Pin 51 just goes high for HD media and low for SD/DD media (actually it goes low when 250kbps or 300kbps data rates are set, instead of 500kbps). So it doesn't look like that does what you'd want, either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:22:48 2005 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:22:48 -0800 Subject: LK401 Message-ID: <11c909eb05031715225aa807d8@mail.gmail.com> Quoth Paul Koning (i think), regarding LK401 some weeks back: >Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard >is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane >switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If >moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I >found this out the hard way. Does the same apply to LK401 keyboards? I have one with a non-functioning key (try resetting passwords on VMS when you can't get a 'Z'....), and the melted-post construction seems the same. Am I best just looking for a replacement and if so, anyone in the UK got a spare I can make an offer for? Be nice to the moderators and contact me off-list :) Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 17 17:26:03 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:26:03 -0600 Subject: 8" drive support on PC's References: <200503172006.MAA26190@clulw009.amd.com> <002001c52b3d$54765dd0$d53dd7d1@randylaptop> <10503172309.ZM17867@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002e01c52b48$d9dff520$7d92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 5:09 PM > Well, I looked at the data sheet for the WD37C65, which used to be > fairly common, and the answer is "sort of". Pin 39 is the one that > you'd be interested in. It's an output labelled "/RWC,/RPM" and when > it's low, and the controller is in Base Mode, it says it causes a > reduced write current when bit density is increased towards the inner > tracks, being active when track > 28 (I think that refers to 40-track > drives, which would be 56 on an 80-track drive). This is very similar > to to the TG43 signal, except for being relative to a different track, > but it's not on the same pin as /DIRECTION (Pin 31). I can't help > wondering if "28" is a misprint for "23" or something like that, but I > checked two separate printings of the data sheet and both said "28". > > It also says this function changes when in AT/EISA mode (it then > becomes completely under program control, and appears to be intended to > be used to set the density and/or speed for the whole disk) :-( > > However, if you have control over the FDC rather than letting the BIOS > or DOS do it for you, you could make it do what you wanted. > > I also looked at the Intel 82078 FDC, which is a successor to the 8272, > in either a 64-pin QFP package or a 44-pin PLCC, either 5V or 3.3V,. > and it was an antecedent of many of the multi-I/O chips. Unfortunately > it doesn't give enough detail. > > Lastly, I looked at the NatSemi DP8473. It has /DIRECTION on pin 4 > (PLCC version), and /LC (low current) on pin 51. Pin 51 just goes high > for HD media and low for SD/DD media (actually it goes low when 250kbps > or 300kbps data rates are set, instead of 500kbps). So it doesn't look > like that does what you'd want, either. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Yes I agree with what you said but it misses the point: Today density select is a general purpose IO pin, originally the 765 used the direction pin as a dual purpose pin. This dual purpose description is now gone but maybe not the action. There is no need for TG43 in todays PC's, at least not as far as the manufacturers are concerned. When the need for a "new" density select line came it was accomplished through a separate IO but was the old reduced current logic removed? Randy www.s100-manuals.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 17:36:15 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:36:15 -0500 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4239FCCA.1010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> <42375FB5.2060203@mcdermith.net> <4239FCCA.1010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <423A146F.10307@sbcglobal.net> David Woyciesjes wrote: > I never added mine to the list. Add one more to the 30 group. Got > into this when I got my paws on a DEC Multia. I should check to see if > that's on topic or not... > Then there was the VaxStation 3100 m38, a DEC 3000/400, a Dec 4000 > that I almost took home from work... > I should've clarified a little better... I got into computers back in college (1992, theatre arts major), for workstudy. It didn't become a job until after I dropped out of college in Dec '93. 1994 rolled around, and my job as a grill cook in a local deli wasn't paying the credit card bills... I got into the classic computing hobby when I got the Multia about 5 years ago. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Mar 17 15:42:10 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:42:10 -0000 Subject: Slightly OT ceramic caps - not in DECs References: <200503161729.JAA25277@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317001137.U849@localhost><4239AB6F.5090300@oldskool.org> <4239E7F1.4000901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <04f501c52b4a$387cbb80$0200a8c0@geoff> This was p[osted on the Tekscopes bulletin board , I thought it may be of interest here Geoff. Hello All, Thanks to all that provided info on the 2221A. The problem was the scope was totally dead. The failed part ended up being C945, a 0.1uF/50V monolithic cap that went to about 5 ohms resistance. This appears to be a decoupling cap on the power supply inverter transformer center-tap drive circuit. Very unusual that a ceramic cap went bad instead of a tantalum or electrolytic. Regards, Jim That is not quite as unusual for monolithic caps of that vintage. What you are seeing is silver dendrite growth through cracks in ceramic. When cap is abused, mechanically or thermally, the cap body (ceramic) cracks and in presence of humidity and electrical field, silver (out of ink which forms capacitor plates) leaches out along cracks and forms an irregular structure that somewhat looks like a net and shorts the cap. Decoupling caps usually clear up those shorts, but when not used often enough, or power supply folds down at a relatively low currents (what is frequently a case on power up) those shorts stay and just get beefed up over time. I have seen 50 A power supply being held in fold-down mode by those dendrites. In early 80s, when monolithic caps where new technology, they were accepted quite enthusiastically because of higher capacitance density and low ESR, both required for that new fungled thing called DRAM. Then came a rude surprise, discovery that few months after assembly, mysterious shorts would develop. Things looked so bad that there were even articles predicting that monolithic caps would never make a viable product. In days of through-the-hole components, radial and axial style monolithic caps were usually encapsulated into a rectangular (cylindrical for axial style) epoxy body, the same material as used for IC housing. The problem with epoxy body was, and still is, that water, or rather water vapor, penetrates along leads and supplies moisture for dendrite growth. To mitigate epoxy's package lack of hermeticity, a new type of package was introduced: glass encapsulated capacitor; that package was a variation on the one used for diodes. It was very expensive, but some companies would pay any price to get reliable decoupling cap; DEC was one of them. After around mid 80s, all DEC CPU and memory boards used only glass encapsulated caps. So do not be surprised that your cap failed, it happens all the time, less frequently now then it used to be, but it still happens. The usual scenario is that damaged caps form dendrites and when those caps are used as decoupling (across power supply lines) shorts get cleared. After few clearing iterations, there is no capacitance left, but no one is wiser, it is decoupling; you just end up with a noisy board. However, if cap is used on a signal line, usually there is not enough energy on such lines to clear shorts, signals end up being shorted to some other signals or ground and that is something that is not frequently suspected, so it is difficult to find. Regards Miroslav Pokorni From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 17 17:49:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:49:05 +0000 Subject: Age In-Reply-To: <4239FCCA.1010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <200503130831520652.434C3EF8@192.168.42.129> <00d601c527f8$140a5000$25406b43@66067007> <00a701c527fe$f44c6170$2101a8c0@finans> <10503132105.ZM6693@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4235B563.9010108@mcdermith.net> <42375FB5.2060203@mcdermith.net> <4239FCCA.1010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1111103345.16587.141.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 16:55 -0500, David Woyciesjes wrote: > I never added mine to the list. Add one more to the 30 group. Oh yeah, ditto - 30 here too, and I never got around to it either :-) Started out on a 48K Spectrum, which got me into programming. Went to a speccy +2 from there, then an Amiga. Gained an original IBM PC and an XT around 1990. After that I was on to Sun stuff (Sparc 1, 2 and 5) and the big Meiko computing surface I had access to at uni. Bought my first proper PC then too in order to hook up to the 'net and mess around with Linux (I just realised that its floppy drive still survives in my current desktop PC). I got into collecting Acorn stuff around that time, mainly because I was in the right place at the right time to get hold of things like my ARM evaluation kit and Cambridge Workstation, and it sparked my interest. Other interesting beasties followed on - DEC Rainbow, Commodore +4, lots more Acorn stuff (some pretty rare), RML 480Z fileserver, Tek XD88, NCR Tower 32. Diamond D5 wordprocessor, Philips P3800 mini. Gained a few more RML 480Z machines (seven) and a 380Z. Various Spectrums, VIC 20, another CBM +4. More Acorns. Memotech MTX500. Joined this list in 1998 :-) Got to play around with a whole host of SGI stuff around that time too - Indys, O200 and O2000 machines. Hit the motherlode of Torch stuff in umm 2002 I think; lots of machines and workshop spares / docs. Gained a Sun Ultra 1 last year, plus Nascom 2. Got rid of some stuff, but still have most of what I've collected over the years (probably about 50 machines or so) Been at Bletchley museum since late 2003, so since then I've pretty much had the pick of whatever hardware I want to mess around with. On the one hand it's great having about a thousand machines on tap, on the other there just aren't enough hours in the day and there's too much work to be done :-/ cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 17:51:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8" drive support on PC's Message-ID: <200503172351.PAA26236@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" ---snip--- > >Today density select is a general purpose IO pin, originally the 765 used >the direction pin as a dual purpose pin. > >This dual purpose description is now gone but maybe not the action. > >There is no need for TG43 in todays PC's, at least not as far as the >manufacturers are concerned. When the need for a "new" density select line >came it was accomplished through a separate IO but was the old reduced >current logic removed? > Hi Randy That is a good question? I would guess that it went the way of the FM ability. When they were looking for things to cut, a magnitude comparitor would have sticked out like a sore thumb. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 17 18:00:59 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slightly OT ceramic caps - not in DECs Message-ID: <200503180000.QAA26241@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Geoffrey Thomas" ---snip--- > >That is not quite as unusual for monolithic caps of that vintage. What you >are seeing is silver dendrite growth through cracks in ceramic. ---snip--- Hi This seems to be worse on the glass encapulated, "Mil Spec" capacitors. I've replaced quite a few of these. Many more than the older disc and epoxy ones. In pinball machines, failed disc caps are quite common on the switch sense lines. So, it seems that this is a common source of failure. Dwight From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Mar 17 18:19:18 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:19:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> > > If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors > discussion was for > > electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run > capacitors are AC. I'm > > not sure the reforming process would be the same > (or if it is even > > possible). Are these capacitors electrolytics at all? I thought that motor capacitors were generally oil-filled, but not electrolytic. --Bill From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 17 18:29:34 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:29:34 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "William Maddox" > > > The motor run > > capacitors are AC. I'm > > > not sure the reforming process would be the same > > (or if it is even > > > possible). > > Are these capacitors electrolytics at all? > I thought that motor capacitors were generally > oil-filled, but not electrolytic. They are oil-filled in my TU55, but they are electrolytic in my TU56. Vince From medavidson at mac.com Thu Mar 17 18:50:27 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:50:27 -0800 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > Hello, > > Lyle sent me the pics and I've put them on my site here: > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-001S.JPG > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-002S.JPG > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-004S.JPG > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-006S.JPG > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-009S.JPG > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-020S.JPG > > Hopefully someone will rescue this machine... > > Disclaimer: Not mine, no connection, etc. > > --tom > > > At 11:30 PM 2/4/2005 -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG >> picture I >> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the list >> server >> to handle. >> >> A very clean dual rack DG Eclipse MV/4000 is available in the SF Bay >> Area. >> [Removed - I've attached a picture] - and have several others with >> more >> detail which I'll be glad to email off-list to anyone interested. >> >> I've inspected the the Eclipse and it looks complete - with all >> cables, keys, >> etc. My guess is that its weight is close to 1000lbs(?). >> >> If you're interested in the critter, let me know and I'll email you >> the >> contact information. >> >> I do not have any relationship to the vendor other than as a >> customer. I just >> don't like to see beasties like this dismantled for parts or sold for >> scrap... >> >> Lyle >> -- >> Lyle Bickley >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> Just an FYI and an update... I'm in the final arrangements to purchase this machine... all that is left is to arrange the shipping. Fortunately, I'm local to the place that has it, so I'm paying them to deliver it to my house (it's reasonable enough that my renting a truck and moving it myself would cost more). For now, it's probably going in my garage, where I can inspect, clean and test the parts. As each piece is tested, I'll move it into my home office (after I make room) and continue from there. I guess everyone needs a restoration project to occupy their free time? :) I don't know the status of the disks, so I'm not even sure if it has an OS on it... if anyone has any pointers to an Eclipse RDOS or AOS/VS boot tape, I'd love to be put in touch with them! Thanks. Mark Davidson medavidson at mac.com From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 17 18:56:15 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:56:15 -0600 Subject: 8" drive support on PC's References: <200503172351.PAA26236@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000a01c52b55$4d8937a0$313cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 5:51 PM >>From: "Randy McLaughlin" > ---snip--- >> >>Today density select is a general purpose IO pin, originally the 765 used >>the direction pin as a dual purpose pin. >> >>This dual purpose description is now gone but maybe not the action. >> >>There is no need for TG43 in todays PC's, at least not as far as the >>manufacturers are concerned. When the need for a "new" density select >>line >>came it was accomplished through a separate IO but was the old reduced >>current logic removed? >> > > Hi Randy > That is a good question? I would guess that it went the > way of the FM ability. When they were looking for things > to cut, a magnitude comparitor would have sticked out > like a sore thumb. > Dwight I'm going to write some code that reads sectors at specific tracks. By monitoring pin 18 it will be easy to tell if it is still there. It may be that as you said it went the way of FM support, if so it would be OK as long as it wasn't removed well be FM support was removed :-) After all some still support FM maybe they still have a hidden TG43 support. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 17 18:14:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:14:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <52125.64.139.41.130.1111024852.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 16, 5 06:00:52 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > So not much better then. The FPGAs have presumably become more complex as > > the PCs to compile them get faster... > [...] > > Oh yes. But the point it is took many, many, compiles to get the darn > > thing to work. I am sure I could have hand-wired it in less time than > > that. > > For a Spartan 3 FPGA (XC3S400), in less than five minutes I can > compile a design that includes a 32-bit RISC processor core, a VGA > controller, a PS/2 mouse controller, and an SDRAM interface. And how long did it take you to design all those parts? (If you're just sticking pre-designed modules together, that's little more than PC assembling, and doesn't count :-)). I find I can design and debug _as I wire_. > > If I wanted to build the equivalent out of SSI/MSI chips, it would > take me weeks if not months. I suspect that the actual time in going from idea to working prototype is much the same in both cases. Or at least it was when I had to use FPGAs. > > > If you need to make a change to a hand-wired design, it takes, > > perhaps, 5 minutes. To do it to the FPGA design means another overnight > > compile. > > Depends on the change. If it's simple, the times might be comparable. > For a complex change, doing it on the FPGA is much faster. For instance, > suppose I decide that I want to change the load and store byte > instructions to be little-endian rather than big-endian. With an HDL That's not a change, it's a redesign :-). Seriously, I do like to have some idea of what I am trying to build before I start building it. > IF I want to do things like experiment with adding extra pipeline stages, > the FPGA is an even bigger win. And when it doesn't work, and you can't probe the relevant signal in the FPGA, the board of TTL/ECL is a much bigger win... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 17 18:18:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PerSci 277 floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4238E81C.8080405@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Mar 16, 5 07:14:52 pm Message-ID: > > > > Another tip ; If, as here, you're making a cable with swapped-round > > connections, get the 'rainbow' multi-coloured cable, not the grey stuff. > > Being able to recognise wire 15 (it's the second green one) rather than > > counting, and probalby miscounting, for each one, is well worth the extra > > cost of the rainbow cable. > > Tony, of all the useful suggestions I've seen you make on this list, > that's probably the coolest. Eeek. I nearly didn't post it, I thought it was so obvious that I'd be flamed for wasting bandwidth... It confirms that quote from 'Control the world with HPIL' -- 'Nothing is so obvious that somebody doesn't know it'. This is not a dig at you, of course, therer are many things I don't know. and many that I've learnt from this list. There'd be no point in being on this list if I knew everything. > > I know my parts house *has* a few yards of multi-color 34-lead > ribbon, and it likely wouldn't have occured to me to use it. For some reason, the rainbow cable normally starts with 'brown' (1), not 'black' (0). This sort-of annoys me, I've got so used to counting from 0.... (On the other hand I did celebrate the new Millennium at the right time...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 17 18:19:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:19:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <4238E841.90401@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Mar 16, 5 07:15:29 pm Message-ID: > > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > >Which only goes to prove: "The possible we do immediately, the > >impossible takes a little longer". > > > > > Well lets get the quote right. > "The difficult we do right away...the impossible takes slightly longer." > Philo T. Farnsworth -- inventor of television. Along with 2 quotes I always liked : 'Nothing is impossible -- apart from ski-ing through a revolving door' and 'Somebody these days claiming something is impossible is apt to be interrupted by some fool doing it' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 17 18:33:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:33:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <002d01c52b16$64ea9fe0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Mar 17, 5 12:26:01 pm Message-ID: > > > 20amps, wow. Someone give me this for christmas! > > > I now have Two nice machines (Tek scope, VT100) that blow > fuses and have been dancing aound the issue to get one for a > few weeks now. I'm not really an electronics guy but I've been > led to believe that a variac is the single best thing to get to help > remedy fuse blows. Any strong yes or no votes towards this > decision? I wouldn't actually use a variac for either... The Tek 'scope is prssumably a 500 series, and therefore valved. It's not going to do a lot if the heaters aren't up to temperature, therefore reducing the mains input is not going to help. Which fuse (AC input, or HT) does it blow, does it happen at swtich-on or when the HT relay pulls in? You may find that you can disable supplies by pulling the appropriate 6080 double triodes (but IIRC, the -150V supply must be kept for last, since the others use it as a reference), and then see if you can find out where the short it that way. The VT100 has a switching supply. A variac is not particularly useful there either -- the series lightbulb is more use. I use a couple of 100W 240V bulbs in series connected between the +ve side of the mains smoothing capacitor and the chopper transformer (I remember I had a to cut a track to do this). Most likely the chopper has failed, and taken out some low-value resistors with it. You really haven't a hope of fixing this without the schematics and a good understanding of what should go on. Rememebr that much of the circuitry -- including the chopper transistor -- is directly connected to the maisn, and lethal to touch (this thing generates about 340V from the mains by voltage-doubling the incoming 115V). Fortunately the control circuitry is on the isolated, output side, coupled to the chopper transistor by the round, black, pulse transformer, but it's still not pleasant to work on. I have done it, though. -tony From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 17 18:57:41 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:57:41 +1100 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 18/03/2005, at 7:04 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code > your own. It looks like this: > > for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } > > and each task simply does stuff for a while, then returns when it has > nothing left to do or when it's time to give another task a shot at > the CPU. That sort of system is very simple and very reliable. Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree here. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 19:27:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <52963.64.139.41.130.1111109233.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Paul Koning wrote: > Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code > your own. It looks like this: > > for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } That's only a very restricted case of cooperative multitasking, though it can nevertheless be useful and effective for many problems. In fact, this is the model used in the system I'm working on for my employer. In a normal cooperative multitasking case, you can write tasks that yield the CPU partway through their execution, and will resume where they left off, rather than always resuming at the beginning. (For the case of exactly two such tasks, this is known as "coroutines".) This means that each task has to have it's own stack, and any additional state that the compiler uses (e.g. local variables) must be saved and restored on a task switch. There is no way to portably implement that in standard C, although in practice it can be done with setjmp() and longjmp() on most platforms. (Technically that depends on behavior of setjmp() and longjmp() beyond what is guaranteed by the C standard.) Many people have gotten the idea that cooperative multitasking is "bad", or that it isn't "real" multitasking. In reality, there are many scenarios in which cooperative multitasking is a better solution than preemptive multitasking. Either type can get you into trouble if you're not careful. Eric From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 17 19:36:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:36:04 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> On 18/03/2005, at 7:04 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can >> code your own. It looks like this: >> >> for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } >> >> and each task simply does stuff for a while, then returns when it >> has nothing left to do or when it's time to give another task a >> shot at the CPU. That sort of system is very simple and very >> reliable. Huw> Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree Huw> here. Depends on what you're doing. If you want to run large workstation applications, then you want a real Unix-style OS. The original question was for a very small multitasking system, which to me sounded more like an embedded/RTOS type of application. That's where the cooperative style often works better. One benefit of cooperative, rather than preemptive, scheduling is that the scheduling properties and liveness properties of the various tasks are very obvious. If reliability demands that everything gets a slice of time, then cooperative multitasking, without priority, is a great way to get the job done. Yes, sometimes priorities are needed. But all too often, priorities are used to hide the fact that the builder didn't analyze the job sufficiently, and simply hacked the priorities until things seemed to work in test. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 17 19:55:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <54655.64.139.41.130.1111110912.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Paul wrote: > all too often, priorities > are used to hide the fact that the builder didn't analyze the job > sufficiently, and simply hacked the priorities until things seemed to > work in test. True. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen other engineers trying to set the priority of their task higher than those of other tasks just because they have some vague idea that their task is "important", rather than any understanding of actual relationships between the tasks. A good rule of thumb is that in the absence of a rational basis for one task having a higher priority than another, all tasks should have the same priority. Far too often a person's intuitive idea of what the relative task priorities should be is wrong. Eric From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 17 20:47:27 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:47:27 -0500 Subject: Virtual TU56 restoration project? Message-ID: Is anyone interested in helping me do the TU56/TC11 restoration as a "virtual restoration project"? I know you California guys can get together in person and meet and work on your PDP-1 restoration. I'm stuck here in South Carolina and don't have a face-to-face group to interact with. I'm going to add a projects page to my site, and add the TU56 project under that. I've taken some pictures of it the way it is today, which is pretty much how it arrived, except that I've located a couple cards that were missing. I don't know if anyone has ever done anything like this remotely in a "virtual mode" before, but the idea of a team project sounds interesting to me. David in New York could restore his TU56 in parallel. In my current job I work daily with a team in India. We never see one another face-to-face except when an occasional developer comes to the U.S. to spend some time learning our procedures and processes. We are able to accomplish our goals with teams working on opposite sides of the globe. Several folks have already privately been in correspondence with me and have already been a big help. You know who you are. If anyone's interested, let me know. The project would have a plan that folks could help me put together, to do things in a reasonable and logical order. Things like clean the backplanes, check the flip-chips, re-form the capacitors, etc. I don't know what would be in it for everyone else, other than to know that you helped when it finally spins up a DECtape and can read and write to it as the unit is connected to one of my PDP-11s. Call me crazy if you wish. I suppose I've been involved in too many group projects over the past 20 years and this seems like a fun opportunity to try out the group/team concept in a different way. Ashley From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Mar 17 20:56:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:56:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <35815.64.139.41.130.1111098702.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: > Good point. I knew they weren't wired right across a DC output of a > supply, so the variac approach won't work, but I didn't think about > the use of AC capacitors. I don't think it's possible to reform > AC electrolytics at all, but I'm not an expert on such things. Motor start capacitors tend to be far more beefy* than filter caps, so I would doubt any of them would ever need reforming, unless they are REALLY pushing the age envelope (as in 100 years). I have never heard of nor have seen a motor start cap blow due to "deforming" (although I have seen some blow due to bad seals at the lugs, making either moisture get in or dielectric get out. That is a different failure mode, however.), and I have been around quite a lot of old motor start caps. If the caps looks good (look at the seals), it very likely is good. *Due to the harsh electrical environment they tend to be subjected to. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Mar 17 20:58:40 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:58:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Are these capacitors electrolytics at all? > I thought that motor capacitors were generally > oil-filled, but not electrolytic. Nearly all are oil, but every so often you see an electrolytic version. The oil caps will likely be good long after we are gone. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 21:32:18 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:32:18 -0600 Subject: Virtual TU56 restoration project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:47:27 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > Is anyone interested in helping me do the > TU56/TC11 restoration as a "virtual restoration > project"? I know you California guys can get > together in person and meet and work on your > PDP-1 restoration. I'm stuck here in South > Carolina and don't have a face-to-face group > to interact with. > > I'm going to add a projects page to my site, > and add the TU56 project under that. I've > taken some pictures of it the way it is today, > which is pretty much how it arrived, except > that I've located a couple cards that were > missing. > > I don't know if anyone has ever done anything > like this remotely in a "virtual mode" before, > but the idea of a team project sounds interesting > to me. David in New York could restore his > TU56 in parallel. In my current job I work > daily with a team in India. We never see one > another face-to-face except when an occasional > developer comes to the U.S. to spend some time > learning our procedures and processes. We are > able to accomplish our goals with teams > working on opposite sides of the globe. > > Several folks have already privately been in > correspondence with me and have already been > a big help. You know who you are. > > If anyone's interested, let me know. The > project would have a plan that folks could > help me put together, to do things in a > reasonable and logical order. Things like > clean the backplanes, check the flip-chips, > re-form the capacitors, etc. I don't know > what would be in it for everyone else, other > than to know that you helped when it finally > spins up a DECtape and can read and write to > it as the unit is connected to one of my > PDP-11s. > > Call me crazy if you wish. I suppose I've > been involved in too many group projects over > the past 20 years and this seems like a fun > opportunity to try out the group/team concept > in a different way. > > Ashley Sounds like a fun time to do the occasional video linkup. Somehow using new technology to restore very old technology smacks of the irreverent just enough to be fun. -dhbarr. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 17 21:33:00 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:33:00 -0600 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <04a901c52b6b$2f9cd6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> it was written... > can you give me > a little primer on the caution of capacitors in power supplies? Yeah, I'll give you a primer on the capacitors on the TU56.... to get replacements is about $70 each! For the four motor run caps anyways. I'll get to refurbing my TU56 "Someday". Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 17 21:38:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:38:58 -0600 Subject: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay References: <20050316124714.R1033@localhost> <20050316161050.J1033@localhost> Message-ID: <053e01c52b6c$05062bc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've talked to goldsnipper before. He definitely thinks it's worth that kind of money. He may still be on this list, not sure. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: D.G. Nova/4 on ePay > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: > >> "gold-snipper" is nearby -- I could contact him, but I have no knowledge >> of >> Nova H/W. > > Oh, I was just thinking generally. I don't know if he's absolutely > convinced the thing is worth $600, or isn't sure and thought he'd > try that, or just fishing, or what. > > It also seemed to be a heads-up that gold-snipper at least was > aware of classic collectors; whether a friend, impartial > businessmammal, or bloodthirsty shark, I don't know, and a visit > might illuminate that. > > And finally, if he becomes aware it's really not worth much > money-wise (shipping alone will be $100), and will sell it to you > 'cheap', you could probably part it out and recoup maybe $100 if > you were so inclined. Like I said, I'd buy a memory or two, maybe > another IO card. > > Unless you're a DG nut, or one lives near you, or doesn't mind > paying for shipping, the chassis itself would probably get > scrapped, sad to say. > > There's a regulated P.S. that slides into the chassis under the > lowest board (CPU); there's a swing-out unreg supply in back; > there's a backplane; there's the plastic front panel. Some "paddle > card" plugs onto the backplane to the rear connectors. Those > things could be removed and traded/sold off but for relatively > peanuts, and shipping cheap (light). > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 17 21:49:51 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:49:51 -0600 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> Message-ID: <070101c52b6d$8d525520$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote... >>> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG picture I >>> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the list >>> server >>> to handle. Not too much for it to handle, it just refused. The server is configured to not allow any attachments. Jay From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 17 21:50:04 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:50:04 -0800 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> Message-ID: <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Mark, I think you're in luck - when I checked the critter a month and a half ago it had a physically "big" Hard Disk installed. Keep us informed as to your progress!1 Cheers, Lyle n Thursday 17 March 2005 16:50, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Lyle sent me the pics and I've put them on my site here: > > > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-001S.JPG > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-002S.JPG > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-004S.JPG > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-006S.JPG > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-009S.JPG > > http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-020S.JPG > > > > Hopefully someone will rescue this machine... > > > > Disclaimer: Not mine, no connection, etc. > > > > --tom > > > > At 11:30 PM 2/4/2005 -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG > >> picture I > >> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the list > >> server > >> to handle. > >> > >> A very clean dual rack DG Eclipse MV/4000 is available in the SF Bay > >> Area. > >> [Removed - I've attached a picture] - and have several others with > >> more > >> detail which I'll be glad to email off-list to anyone interested. > >> > >> I've inspected the the Eclipse and it looks complete - with all > >> cables, keys, > >> etc. My guess is that its weight is close to 1000lbs(?). > >> > >> If you're interested in the critter, let me know and I'll email you > >> the > >> contact information. > >> > >> I do not have any relationship to the vendor other than as a > >> customer. I just > >> don't like to see beasties like this dismantled for parts or sold for > >> scrap... > >> > >> Lyle > >> -- > >> Lyle Bickley > >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. > >> http://bickleywest.com > >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > Just an FYI and an update... > > I'm in the final arrangements to purchase this machine... all that is > left is to arrange the shipping. Fortunately, I'm local to the place > that has it, so I'm paying them to deliver it to my house (it's > reasonable enough that my renting a truck and moving it myself would > cost more). > > For now, it's probably going in my garage, where I can inspect, clean > and test the parts. As each piece is tested, I'll move it into my home > office (after I make room) and continue from there. I guess everyone > needs a restoration project to occupy their free time? :) > > I don't know the status of the disks, so I'm not even sure if it has an > OS on it... if anyone has any pointers to an Eclipse RDOS or AOS/VS > boot tape, I'd love to be put in touch with them! > > Thanks. > > Mark Davidson > medavidson at mac.com -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 17 22:15:33 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:33 +1100 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <39d11151b3dcc0075cda207248a2c772@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 18/03/2005, at 12:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: > > Huw> Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree > Huw> here. > > Depends on what you're doing. > > If you want to run large workstation applications, then you want a > real Unix-style OS. > > The original question was for a very small multitasking system, which > to me sounded more like an embedded/RTOS type of application. That's > where the cooperative style often works better. I suspect a lot depends on how much control over the total environment you have. For a small embedded/RTOS you probably have (or at least should have) total control. If you don't you're depending on the writer of one (or more) of the processes "doing the right thing". Now probably they will try to do this, but any subtle bug may lead to one of the processes failing to relinquish the CPU and then "bad things happen (TM)" - this was the typical Mac experience. Of course, having said that, Macs worked remarkably well for many years. > One benefit of cooperative, rather than preemptive, scheduling is that > the scheduling properties and liveness properties of the various tasks > are very obvious. If reliability demands that everything gets a slice > of time, then cooperative multitasking, without priority, is a great > way to get the job done. Are the risks in preemptive scheduling just ones of complexity? I guess that it is much harder to "prove" that this type of scheduler is going to to the right thing at the right time. I know that, for example, the scheduler for VMS has gone from a couple of pages of assembler to something like 75 pages of BLISS! > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From medavidson at mac.com Thu Mar 17 22:30:24 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:30:24 -0800 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <315468dcf8c689ba552f0d3a6ca7c8e7@mac.com> Lyle-- Yes, I saw it had at least one fixed disk installed... I believe Terry told me, though, that the machine was wiped before they got it in the warehouse. I'm just hoping I can find a copy of RDOS or AOS to install on it. Mark On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Mark, > > I think you're in luck - when I checked the critter a month and a half > ago it > had a physically "big" Hard Disk installed. Keep us informed as to > your > progress!1 > > Cheers, > Lyle > > > n Thursday 17 March 2005 16:50, Mark Davidson wrote: >> On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Tom Uban wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Lyle sent me the pics and I've put them on my site here: >>> >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-001S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-002S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-004S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-006S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-009S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-020S.JPG >>> >>> Hopefully someone will rescue this machine... >>> >>> Disclaimer: Not mine, no connection, etc. >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> At 11:30 PM 2/4/2005 -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG >>>> picture I >>>> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the >>>> list >>>> server >>>> to handle. >>>> >>>> A very clean dual rack DG Eclipse MV/4000 is available in the SF Bay >>>> Area. >>>> [Removed - I've attached a picture] - and have several others with >>>> more >>>> detail which I'll be glad to email off-list to anyone interested. >>>> >>>> I've inspected the the Eclipse and it looks complete - with all >>>> cables, keys, >>>> etc. My guess is that its weight is close to 1000lbs(?). >>>> >>>> If you're interested in the critter, let me know and I'll email you >>>> the >>>> contact information. >>>> >>>> I do not have any relationship to the vendor other than as a >>>> customer. I just >>>> don't like to see beasties like this dismantled for parts or sold >>>> for >>>> scrap... >>>> >>>> Lyle >>>> -- >>>> Lyle Bickley >>>> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >>>> http://bickleywest.com >>>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> >> Just an FYI and an update... >> >> I'm in the final arrangements to purchase this machine... all that is >> left is to arrange the shipping. Fortunately, I'm local to the place >> that has it, so I'm paying them to deliver it to my house (it's >> reasonable enough that my renting a truck and moving it myself would >> cost more). >> >> For now, it's probably going in my garage, where I can inspect, clean >> and test the parts. As each piece is tested, I'll move it into my >> home >> office (after I make room) and continue from there. I guess everyone >> needs a restoration project to occupy their free time? :) >> >> I don't know the status of the disks, so I'm not even sure if it has >> an >> OS on it... if anyone has any pointers to an Eclipse RDOS or AOS/VS >> boot tape, I'd love to be put in touch with them! >> >> Thanks. >> >> Mark Davidson >> medavidson at mac.com > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 22:39:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:39:58 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:20:10 -0800 "vrs" wrote: > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > > On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 11:00 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > I do not own a variac, so I will need to get one of these to > > > properly reform the TU56 capacitors. I see several different > > > varieties on eBay. What would I need exactly? > > > > If I'm not mistaken the whole reforming capacitors discussion was > > for electrolitic capacitors (ie DC). The motor run capacitors are > > AC. I'm not sure the reforming process would be the same (or if it > > is even possible). > > > > Anyone want to comment? > > I thought the basic structure of the AC electrolytics was that of two > matched DC electrolytics wired in series. If this is true, then I > suppose a current limited AC supply might be able to reform them? > > Vince I doubt if a motor capacitor is made up out of a back-to-back electrolytic pair. Usually, motor capacitors are some form of 'oil filled' capacitor or modern variant, and are non-polarized. Usually not of a high enough value to need to be an electrolytic design. I have the 'perfect instrument' for testing and restoring capacitors. It's a US Navy LCR bridge that has built in charging power supply. So you can install a capacitor onto the 'unknown' terminals, charge it up to as high as 400 volts DC, while measuring the leakage current. You can then measure it's capacitance and quality while charged to said voltage. It's intended for tube-era parts, but will work fine for lower voltages. The best device to check out and 'form up' electrolytics of lower voltages (IMHO) is a regular constant-voltage/constant-current bench supply. You set it up to the working voltage for the capacitor, then turn the current limiting very low and attach the capacitor. If the capacitor is 'good' it should charge up to the supplie's set voltage and stop drawing current. If it draws current for awhile, you're not going to 'rush' current into it and cause damage. Important to remember when charging capacitors up is that they then have a fairly high 'instantaneous' current capability. If you charge, for instance, a 4700 uF capacitor up to 40 volts, care should be taken not to short it out. Discharge it slowly through a resistance, say 10K ohms or so. You might 'melt' whatever shorting item you use if you just crowbar it, and the hot metal can burn. Fooling around in the lab, we used to hang big 'computer grade' capacitors (I had a 470,000 uF one) across regular 'low current' bench supplies to 'arc weld.' You can melt copper wire with a part like that 'trickle' charging up to 40 volts on an ordinary supply. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 22:52:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:52:09 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. In-Reply-To: <200503162303.PAA25596@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503162303.PAA25596@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050317235209.49536614.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:03:38 -0800 (PST) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Giuseppe Sarno" > > > >Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, > >Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? > >Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the > >serial/parallel port ? > > > >I have seen some info at > >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002642.html > > >ml> but I couldn't find more. > > > >Thanks. > > > > Hi > You didn't mention if you have a disk that boots and > has PIP under CP/M on it. If you do, you can transfer > information as ASCII like a BASIC source program or even > transfer .COM files by first converting them to .HEX > files and then using DDT on the 820 to move them > to .COM files. > If you are attempting to bootstrap with no disk, you'll > have to check with others. One may be able to do it > if it has a built in debug monitor. > Of course, on can always write some of ones own code > and replace one of the internal EPROMs. It is not > as impossible as it sounds. You just have to explore > a little. > Dwight > > I used to have a Xerox 820 ages ago, and presently have a BigBoard that I've yet never powered up. It should have a monitor ROM on it and will power up to a monitor prompt that you can boot CP/M from. Alternatively, you can run monitor commands and (I think) punch in your own code from the keyboard. I have (I think, somewhere, haven't seen them in quite awhile) a full set of prints and docs for my BigBoard. It was originally used as a 'controller' in an industrial setting, so when I got it, it didn't have the original monitor ROM in it, but I acquired an image and burned one. But like I said, I've never powered mine up. Someday it needs to have a drive, monitor, keyboard, etc. attached. I believe, but again it's been years, that you can bring it up using a keyboard and the onboard video controller, or from a console (serial terminal) attached to one of the COM ports. I'd be very happy for anybody who knows more about these systems to correct me on any of the above. I haven't run a Xerox 820 since about 1987. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 22:54:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:54:23 -0500 Subject: FPGAs was USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <000c01c52a91$ee4cc400$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000c01c52a91$ee4cc400$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <20050317235423.37bcd60d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:37:49 -0800 "Michael Holley" wrote: > Eric wrote: > > However, I don't *really* think you want to spend the rest of your > > life writing your own FPGA development software. It's a hard > > problem and there are hundreds of thousands of man-years of > > development effort in the Xilinx software. By the time you got your > > own software working for one family, that family would have long > > since been discontinued. > > Scott wrote: > > I would suspect that while there might be hundreds of thousands of > > man hours, that there just can't possible be hundreds of thousands > > of man*years* involved. > > Xilinx is putting in hundreds of man years this year alone. They have > been at it for over 20 years so their development software amounts to > 1000s of man years of work. (I was in the PLD/FPGA software > development business from 1982 to 1997.) > >From the Xilinx Web page > http://www.xilinx.com/company/press/grounder.htm > > Headquartered in San Jose, California, Xilinx is a publicly traded > company (NASDAQ: XLNX) with approximately 2,600 employees, with nearly > half of its engineers dedicated to software development. > > Michael Holley > (Sorry about the last blank message) > Agreed, but they'd have to operate for centuries to put in 'hundreds of thousands of man years' or hire a heck of a big development staff. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 22:59:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:59:42 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050317235942.444ec52a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:00:12 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:32 PM -0800 3/16/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Does anyone know a true (not a homebrew hack) multitasking > >environment that will run in 16K or less, preferably with available > >source? > > > >I was looking at Mini-UNIX for the PDP-11 and that's something > >similar to what I'm looking for, but I wondered what other > >alternatives there were. Any architecture will do, but I'm > >particularly interested in minicomputer architectures for this > >project (DG, DEC, IBM, etc., would all be appropriate). > > > >Thanks for humouring my odd request ^^ > > Actually it's an interesting question... > > RSX-11C on the PDP-11 comes to mind, I think that's the right RSX > version, but it might require more RAM like 32k. Shoot, even Lunix > on the C-64 requires 64k. > > Then again, maybe I'm thinking to new... What about TSS/8 on the > PDP-8? > > Zane > Back when I was in college, we ran FOCAL on a PDP-8 that didn't have a heck of a lot of Core and it could support people on terminals (ASR-33s) located at several spots on campus. I think what is being inquired about is more properly called a Timesharing System. The hardware needed to attach multiple people up to, say, a 6502 processor made into a timesharing system would be fairly simple, but could get silly, as the terminals people would use to connect to it would probably have more powerful processors in them than the 6502 in the main computer itself. Unless something like teletypes were used. From jimmydevice at verizon.net Thu Mar 17 23:08:20 2005 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:08:20 -0800 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <39d11151b3dcc0075cda207248a2c772@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <39d11151b3dcc0075cda207248a2c772@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <423A6244.4060902@verizon.net> Huw Davies wrote: > > On 18/03/2005, at 12:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: >>>>>> >> >> Huw> Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree >> Huw> here. >> >> Depends on what you're doing. >> >> If you want to run large workstation applications, then you want a >> real Unix-style OS. >> >> The original question was for a very small multitasking system, which >> to me sounded more like an embedded/RTOS type of application. That's >> where the cooperative style often works better. > > > I suspect a lot depends on how much control over the total environment > you have. > > For a small embedded/RTOS you probably have (or at least should have) > total > control. If you don't you're depending on the writer of one (or more) > of the > processes "doing the right thing". Now probably they will try to do > this, but > any subtle bug may lead to one of the processes failing to relinquish > the CPU > and then "bad things happen (TM)" - this was the typical Mac experience. > > Of course, having said that, Macs worked remarkably well for many years. > >> One benefit of cooperative, rather than preemptive, scheduling is that >> the scheduling properties and liveness properties of the various tasks >> are very obvious. If reliability demands that everything gets a slice >> of time, then cooperative multitasking, without priority, is a great >> way to get the job done. > > > Are the risks in preemptive scheduling just ones of complexity? I guess > that it is much harder to "prove" that this type of scheduler is going > to to the right thing at the right time. I know that, > for example, the scheduler for VMS has gone from a couple of pages of > assembler > to something like 75 pages of BLISS! > >> > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > > The advantage of a preemptive scheduler is that a dead process will not block a task swich. This problem, as observed by other list members, should not occure in a properly designed system. But what isystem is properly designed after you have more than one developer working on it? Jim Davis, From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 17 23:26:33 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:26:33 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1><009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1><1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> <20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > I thought the basic structure of the AC electrolytics was that of two > > matched DC electrolytics wired in series. If this is true, then I > > suppose a current limited AC supply might be able to reform them? > > > > Vince > > I doubt if a motor capacitor is made up out of a back-to-back > electrolytic pair. Usually, motor capacitors are some form of 'oil > filled' capacitor or modern variant, and are non-polarized. Usually not > of a high enough value to need to be an electrolytic design. These are 100uf 55VAC, IIRC, and definitely electrolytic. I had one that squirted goo (which had gone all crusty). Vince From spc at conman.org Thu Mar 17 23:41:24 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:41:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 18, 2005 12:14:30 AM Message-ID: <20050318054124.D8EE373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > For a complex change, doing it on the FPGA is much faster. For instance, > > suppose I decide that I want to change the load and store byte > > instructions to be little-endian rather than big-endian. With an HDL > > That's not a change, it's a redesign :-). Seriously, I do like to have > some idea of what I am trying to build before I start building it. > > > IF I want to do things like experiment with adding extra pipeline stages, > > the FPGA is an even bigger win. > > And when it doesn't work, and you can't probe the relevant signal in the > FPGA, the board of TTL/ECL is a much bigger win... Just an observation, but this is reminding me so much of the arguments I've read about Assembly vs. C ... -spc (Or now, about C++ vs. Perl ... ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 17 23:53:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:53:39 -0700 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <04a901c52b6b$2f9cd6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <04a901c52b6b$2f9cd6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <423A6CE3.8090403@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: >Yeah, I'll give you a primer on the capacitors on the TU56.... to get replacements is about $70 each! For the four motor >run caps anyways. > Just what are the caps? ... digs thru surplus catalogs... :) Ben alias woodelf From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 18 00:01:35 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:01:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <39d11151b3dcc0075cda207248a2c772@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Mar 18, 2005 03:15:33 PM Message-ID: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Huw Davies once stated: > > Are the risks in preemptive scheduling just ones of complexity? I guess > that it is much harder to "prove" that this type of scheduler is going > to to the right thing at the right time. I know that, > for example, the scheduler for VMS has gone from a couple of pages of > assembler > to something like 75 pages of BLISS! The biggest risk is still CPU starvation. The AmigaOS (at least up through 1.3) used a simple round-robin with priority scheduler. Dead simple to implement but can lead to process starvation (three CPU bound tasks, two at priority 100, the third at 0---the one at 0 would not be scheduled; the other two would switch off though). But generally speaking the two styles of multitasking just shove the complexity around---in cooperative the complexity is handed off to the application programmer, while in preemptive, it's handed off to the systems programmer. -spc (Hmmm ... Linux 2.0 has 1800 lines in sched.c, while 2.4 has only 1300 ... ) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 18 00:12:10 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:12:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> <20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200503180646.BAA25972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Important to remember when charging capacitors up is that they then > have a fairly high 'instantaneous' current capability. Very true. There's a reason railgun power supplies tend to be capacitor banks which are slowly charged and very quickly discharged. (Railguns, at least conventional railguns, demand very high current for a very short time - mega-amps for milliseconds.) > You might 'melt' whatever shorting item you use if you just crowbar > it, and the hot metal can burn. Right. There's a reason high-power computer supplies have labels showing slashed-circle "no!" signs over watches and rings: they are entirely capable of turning a metallic object like a ring or watch red-hot right on your hand. If you're really unlucky, it can simultaneously spot-weld it to whatever it touched and fail to overload trip (.1 ohm contact resistance at 5 volts draws only 250 watts, which is not that much to an even moderately beefy computer power supply). I once deliberately tripped a mains breaker by shorting hot to ground with a screwdriver. It made an impressive crack! sound, and even more impressive was that the screwdriver shaft was vaporized half through - probably a couple of grams of steel gone. Not something I'm going to repeat; it gave me a good deal more respect for such things. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jimmydevice at verizon.net Fri Mar 18 01:02:38 2005 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:02:38 -0800 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <423A7D0E.3040702@verizon.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: I'm going to post this, it's probably full of typos and editing loops, but It's St. Paddy's I implemented this system on a 68008 in asm/forth in 1991 after I stole the idea from a paper about a scheduler implemented by SUN.. It took about 40 lines of 68K ASM, The tasker included hard realtime timer events and interrupts with a 10 MS resolution. If you want me to post it, just ask. With comments, it's about 200 lines? A quanta bid scheme will eliminate this kind of problem. Every process bids, with a execution urgency bid on the next quanta of CPU time. The bids for all processes are accumulated at each task swap and the high bidder wins the quanta. The winning processes bid is reset to zero. If a process needs more CPU, it can raises it's bid, allowing for simple dynamic load scheduling. Of course, you must compute the bid range assuring that no processes are locked out for too long a period. This can also solve the problem of a hiigher priority task waiting on a lower priority task. I don't see how, when all processes are assured execution, that starvation is a problem with a properly designed tasker, eg, not round robin, but priority. Old Tech, has problems, but in a controlled environment, works great. Jim Davis. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Mar 18 01:18:24 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:18:24 +1100 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <7bc852fbec8d7466391f15489cd593a1@kerberos.davies.net.au> Well moving back on-topic a little.... I would have thought that there were a number of timesharing operating systems written for the PDP-11 above and beyond those written by DEC. The reason being that -11s were relatively cheap and the architecture isn't too bad compared with some other architectures popular at the same time (ooh, I can feel the flames coming from miles away :-). Now I wouldn't want to write an operating system in assembler, but if you had to, an -11 (or even better a VAX) wouldn't be the worst choice. I can think of two "well known" operating systems written for the -11. These are xinu (http://www.cs.purdue.edu/research/xinu.html) and solo (http://web.syr.edu/~pbhansen/html/biography.html). xinu is written in c and solo in Concurrent Pascal. I remember reading Per Brinch Hansen's "The Architecture of Concurrent Programs", which includes the complete program text of the Solo operating system and suddenly all the concepts of operating system design I had were crystalized into knowledge. Another book on my list of "need to finds".... Another (even more interesting) operating system is Hydra written for the CMU* "Beowulf" of PDP-11s. See http://research.microsoft.com/users/GBell/CGB%20Files/ Cmmp%20CMU%20Multiminiprocessor%20Computer%207108%20c.pdf Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jimmydevice at verizon.net Fri Mar 18 01:21:36 2005 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:21:36 -0800 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <423A7D0E.3040702@verizon.net> References: <20050318060136.2ABFA73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <423A7D0E.3040702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <423A8180.6080408@verizon.net> jimmydevice wrote: > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I'm going to post this, it's probably full of typos and editing loops, > but It's St. Paddy's > > I should mention that all interrupts were handled with an ISR and then defered to a high priority process The internals: A linked list of process control blocks, each containing the register state of each process, The process priority (bid), the accumulated bid, a countdown timer ( preempts all bids at T-0) and a link to the next process control block. Sorry, St Patricks Day... ;-0 Jim Davis. > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Mar 18 01:39:43 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 05 07:39:43 GMT Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care Message-ID: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > However, I am a tad concerned about what will happen > to our prized hobby when such items as 9-track tapes, > TK50s, and TU58 DECtape-IIs truly become absolute > unobtainium. As I have stated many times before, I believe the solution is for us to open our own factories to make them. MS From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Mar 18 01:42:00 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:42:00 +0100 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113609@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Jay wrote: > Yeah, I'll give you a primer on the capacitors on the TU56.... to get > replacements is about $70 each! For the four motor run caps anyways. > > I'll get to refurbing my TU56 "Someday". I hope to bring my TU56 back to life this year too ...! One note on the ### motor capacitors. AFAIK there is a difference between motor *start* caps and *run* caps. If I am wrong I would like to know, else what is the difference? - Henk, PA8PDP. From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 18 01:43:53 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:43:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pornscope. (fwd) Message-ID: <20050317234050.M1284@localhost> It's not-quite-on-topic but it's a well-developed evolutionary dead-end; a platypus display. It *could* be done on old gear... >From Tim Pozar: Vector drawings on an o'scope using a sound card on a computer.... http://www.sensi.org/~svo/pr0nscope/ From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 18 03:23:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:23:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050318010236.E1284@localhost> [a bunch of replies all in one] On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these > discussions would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly so) > when poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about all > those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we > need? That's true. It's not like 100% of all media rots to nothing. But "finding" old media that's still readable is different from "archiving". > I consistently read lots of data with nary a problem: 20-30 year old > floppy disks (5.25" and 8"), 20-30 year old mag tapes, even 20 year old > VHS tapes. And of course the punch cards don't count ;) No offense, but you're in the business of doing so :-) Only a minority of even us can read and convert old formats, even when readable. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> If you somehow think that tapes stored in a controlled vault is >> more reliable, or less susceptible to bit rot than rotating >> spindles, I believe you are wrong (and my every experience and >> observation says otherwise). Only fiche and paper are statically >> reliable. > > You are omitting cost. Tapes in a vault cost significantly less over 10 > years than the cost of 4 live systems + replacement hard drives + network > bandwidth + electricity for your method. My assertion is that it's a false economy; besides bit-rot, there's future (near-guarenteed) incompatibilities, and if enough time passes in multiple media (papertape... 1/2" mag tape... DC300... 3740... QIC... etc) In fact, with Moore's Law and related continuous hard disk is *far cheaper*. It's just that you're not deferring the cost to your future inlaws! > Your method, unless I am misunderstanding you, has no revisioning. It > protects against hardware failure, but how many revisions do you keep? What > protects against you mistakenly deleting the wrong directory, etc.? That's what filesystems are for. I also extended a rotating backup scheme I found on the net, that uses hard links and an intentional feature of rsync; it fully saves N copies of the data with true incremental changes with only about 10% more diskspace than the original files themselves, for data that changes at a "reasonable" rate of change (per week, say). (Example: I have a big RAID server that has 5 weeks of 100% snapshots; the original data is about 360GB, 5 weeks worth is about 500GB. http://wps.com/temp/rotate-backup > I agree completely that archival data should be monitored in some fashion > instead of being locked away forever. And, cost permitting, transferred to > new media. On rotating spindles, this is continuous... On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > One other thought is that one should have a way to > transfer the raw data from what ever media you have. > This allows one to have redundent information stored > on the same media. If you depend on normal file systems, > you run the risk of the file system not allowing you > to access the data simply because a small part is > damaged. Hence multiple, ordinary servers, physically separate. The chances of all of them developing a bad disk simultaneously is exceedingly low. If one of my servers craps a disk, that machine is repaired; data from the other server(s) is automatically (cron) copied to it. Self-healing. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: >>>> This reminds me that I read not too long ago that many of the super >>>> computer labs ship PCs between sites because it's *faster* to ship a >>>> working PC with 1TB of disk containing data than it is to transfer it >> Yikes, brings new meaning to the term "Our System Crashed." Wonder >> what the insurance is on something like that.... > > The insurance in that case was basically irrelevant. Their insurance would > cover the hardware replacement costs, period. No point in insuring the data contained in the disk drives in the computer in the back seat; it's just a copy. On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Then the other issue was the archived files themselves. Some of it was in > PageMaker, some in Wordstar, some in MS-DOS .prn files, and a lot of it in > AutoCAD r12 and a freeware DOS GIS tool whose name I've mercifully forgotten. THen there's that! Added to the top of media recovery ("who's got a 200bpi UNIVAC drive?") it generally means that the data is simply "lost". (Few think to "SAVE-AS" plain ASCII for posterity; I rarely do.) > I spent several hundred hours sorting backup sets, restoring them to disk, > migrating files into current formats, and then archiving both current and > original copies to 4mm tape. It made for some very soothing afternoons, > hidden in my office. And they only did it because it was required by law! I'm seriously planning on printing out my website on paper. Laugh, but it might be one of the few copies that survives long term. That is, if I can find a printer that produces real output. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Mar 18 03:04:12 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:04:12 +0000 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:57:41 +1100." <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <200503180904.JAA21179@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Huw Davies said: > > On 18/03/2005, at 7:04 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code > > your own. It looks like this: > > > > for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } > > > > and each task simply does stuff for a while, then returns when it has > > nothing left to do or when it's time to give another task a shot at > > the CPU. That sort of system is very simple and very reliable. > > Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree here. But MacOS, and Windows =< 3, were not well designed systems in that respect. In particular ISTR that they did not force a task switch on all calls to in/out functions, which has an impact on performance among other things. There was a discussion about this in the Forth newsgroup recently. (I use pre-OS-X Macintoshes...) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 17 20:34:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:34:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: New DS/DD floppy 10-pack for $1.99 Message-ID: http://www.affordablesurplus.com/floppy_drives_main.asp Plus other semi-useful PC/Apple stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Mar 18 05:05:51 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:05:51 +0100 Subject: LK401 In-Reply-To: <11c909eb05031715225aa807d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb05031715225aa807d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050318110551.GA19265@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-03-17 15:22:48 -0800, Pete Edwards wrote in message <11c909eb05031715225aa807d8 at mail.gmail.com>: > Quoth Paul Koning (i think), regarding LK401 some weeks back: > > >Then again, if it's a stuck key or something like that, the keyboard > >is beyond repair. LK201 keyboards are cheesy low quality membrane > >switches that cannot be disassembled or cleaned or repaired. If > >moisture ever gets in them, your only option is to scrap the board. I > >found this out the hard way. > > Does the same apply to LK401 keyboards? I have one with a It does. > non-functioning key (try resetting passwords on VMS when you can't get > a 'Z'....), and the melted-post construction seems the same. Am I best > just looking for a replacement and if so, anyone in the UK got a spare > I can make an offer for? Be nice to the moderators and contact me > off-list :) LK201 and LK401 are (from the software point of view) mostly identical. In fact, after a LK401 powers on, it's in LK201 mode and won't actually send scancodes for the additional key(s) until it's switched to LK401 mode. So I guess you'd even use a LK201 to fix your password.. LK[24]01 keyboards are somewhat "common" on ePay, should be easy to get one there if you cannot find another source. If you cannot find one _at_all_, I'd probably write you a small emulator for this keyboard to be used with any other machine which features a serial port... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From James at jdfogg.com Fri Mar 18 06:33:33 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:33:33 -0500 Subject: Pornscope. (fwd) Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DD7@sbs.jdfogg.com> > It's not-quite-on-topic but it's a well-developed > evolutionary dead-end; a platypus display. It *could* be done > on old gear... > > >From Tim Pozar: > > Vector drawings on an o'scope using a sound card on a computer.... > > http://www.sensi.org/~svo/pr0nscope/ WAY too much time on their hands :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 18 07:41:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:41:36 +0000 Subject: Pornscope. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20050317234050.M1284@localhost> References: <20050317234050.M1284@localhost> Message-ID: <1111153296.18465.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-17 at 23:43 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > It's not-quite-on-topic but it's a well-developed evolutionary > dead-end; a platypus display. It *could* be done on old gear... > > >From Tim Pozar: > > Vector drawings on an o'scope using a sound card on a computer.... > > http://www.sensi.org/~svo/pr0nscope/ Haha! That's rather... insane :) Shame there's not an included script for converting a vector-based image format though - I don't think porn would go down too well at the museum, but getting it to display other things would make for a nice little gimmick. We've got quite a few classic 'scopes kicking around - just need to choose a classic machine to drive it... cheers Jules From m_thompson at ids.net Fri Mar 18 08:06:06 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:06:06 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSX tape backup problem In-Reply-To: <42364AC5.2050402@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20050318090606.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> Hi Joe, I have an 800/1600/6250 bpi HP SCSI tape drive on a Sun system. I have the tape image tools on the server so I can make PDP10 boot tapes. I should be able to make *.TAP images of your tapes. At 09:39 PM 3/14/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > Well, I am finally getting around to trying to recover some 26 >9-track tapes I have been holding on to for >at least 10 years. Some are closer to 25 years. I found out six of >them had no data, and a bunch more I >have been able to read and decode, including some RT-11 tapes and some >VAX SIG tapes. Sorry this >monologue won't make much sense to you non-DEC folks, but you might have >ideas on converting from 800 >to 1600 BPI anyway. > >Here is my dilemna. I have 6 tapes that look like they are 800 BPI, and >were most likely written on an RSX-11 >system. I have no 800 BPI setup, and if I did, it would be on a VAX, >which may not be able to restore the >savesets anyway. That is because I have a few more tapes that I can >read (or at least dump) but I cannot unpack >the savesets. It would appear that the tapes were written in the early >days of VMS when the backup and restore >utilities were really RSX-11 BCK/RST derivitives, and the current BACKUP >program does not recognize >the container file as a valid saveset. > >The label on the front of several tapes date them early 80's and talks >about BCK format. The dump sort of looks >like BCK stuff. The blocksize is 2064. > >I've had a couple of offers to try to recover the data, but I was >checking to see if anybody was set up to easily >read and recover the data, without a lot of reconfiguration or hassle. >I'm open to suggestions. I suspect if I knew >the layout of a BCK container/saveset I could unpack them myself (except >for the 800 BPI stuff). Any ideas?? > >I also have an XXDP tape, labeled MSDP, which makes me think it is >bootable. It would be nice to duplicate >it, as it is not easily read to disk. The first block is 14 bytes, and >the rest look like 512 bytes. > >And finally, I have a tape that is readable, is mountable under VMS and >I can copy nearly everything off of. >That is, the 400+ files up to the file that is marked HECK.BCK. That >file is 2064 byte blocks, which makes >me think it is also a BCK/RST format. Can't figure how I got it on the >end of the tape and haven't figured >out how to get it back. > >Cheers, > >Joe Heck > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From m_thompson at ids.net Fri Mar 18 08:08:12 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:08:12 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <1110117640.24111.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> I have a running 2/120 and 2/50 client. Let me know if you need some help with yours. http://users.ids.net/%7ethompson/Sun/vcf-east-2.0.html At 02:00 PM 3/6/2005 +0000, you wrote: > >Unearthed a Sun 2/120 yesterday (CPU cabinet plus disk cabinet plus mono >screen) but unfortunately no sign of a keyboard or mouse. > >Anyone know if a later Sun keyboard and mouse can be wired via an >adapter to work? We've got a couple of Sun 3 keyboards & mice kicking >around which would be enough to test the machine out at least. > >Both the keyboard and mouse connectors on the Sun 2 are 6-pin RJ45-style >connectors (they're probably not called RJ45 in this case as they're >smaller, but you get the idea). > >Actually, I have a feeling that the mouse on our Sun 3/50 uses the same >connector (where it plus into the back of the keyboard) so that might be >the exact right part. The keyboard on the 3/50's a DB15 though... > >cheers > >Jules > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 18 08:19:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:19:57 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16954.58253.213000.850631@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Are these capacitors electrolytics at all? I thought that motor >> capacitors were generally oil-filled, but not electrolytic. William> Nearly all are oil, but every so often you see an William> electrolytic version. The oil caps will likely be good long William> after we are gone. There are motor start caps and motor run caps. The former have much higher capacitance and are only connected for a few seconds during motor start. So my understanding is that start caps are often electrolytic because you can get away with it, while run caps are not because they are subjected to AC full time. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 18 08:35:15 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:35:15 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <39d11151b3dcc0075cda207248a2c772@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <16954.59171.485000.377274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> On 18/03/2005, at 12:36 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> One benefit of cooperative, rather than preemptive, scheduling is >> that the scheduling properties and liveness properties of the >> various tasks are very obvious. If reliability demands that >> everything gets a slice of time, then cooperative multitasking, >> without priority, is a great way to get the job done. Huw> Are the risks in preemptive scheduling just ones of complexity? Huw> I guess that it is much harder to "prove" that this type of Huw> scheduler is going to to the right thing at the right time. I Huw> know that, for example, the scheduler for VMS has gone from a Huw> couple of pages of assembler to something like 75 pages of Huw> BLISS! It's not so much the correctness of the scheduler itself that's the issue. The real issue is the correctness of the decisions it makes. That depends primarily on the settings you assign to the processes. For complex schedulers (like VMS) it also depends on all the various dynamic adjustments it makes, which are typically very hard to understand. The result is that you often end up with a system whose dynamic properties are not known and perhaps not even knowable. For a timesharing system, that's not so bad; if it doesn't act right, people just grumble a bit. For a real time system, it's a bigger issue. If somet things don't get done on time -- or not at all -- the result can be that the system doesn't do the job it was designed to do. A real world example (names omitted): a decade or so ago, there were routers whose designers thought that the job of a router is to forward packets. So they made packet forwarding the top priority. Unfortunately, that's a misunderstanding. The job of a router is to have an up to date view of the network topology, and to communicate that to the other routers. Its *secondary* job is to forward packets. What happened is that a routing loop formed -- which is normal. But there were enough packets circulating in the routing loop that the forwarding process was taking 100% of the CPU time. So the route update process didn't run, so the routing loop was persistent rather than transient as it is supposed to be. Result: the network was down until the operators could shut down enough routers to break the loop. To avoid this, you have to realize that routers are real time systems and that every process in it must be guaranteed a non-zero fraction of the system resources. (That's the absolute minimum -- a better answer is to set specific non-zero lower bounds on the per process resources.) This is why, in a previous life when I built routers, I used single priority non-preemptive schedulers (sometimes as simple as the "for loop" one I showed) to schedule the router functions. The result was that they were stable and reliable and operated correctly under all loads, including overloads. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Mar 18 08:54:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:54:41 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113609@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050318095441.00a803d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:42 AM 3/18/05 +0100, you wrote: >Jay wrote: >> Yeah, I'll give you a primer on the capacitors on the TU56.... to get >> replacements is about $70 each! For the four motor run caps anyways. >> >> I'll get to refurbing my TU56 "Someday". > >I hope to bring my TU56 back to life this year too ...! > >One note on the ### motor capacitors. >AFAIK there is a difference between motor *start* caps and *run* caps. >If I am wrong I would like to know, else what is the difference? > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > AFIK there's no basic difference in the two types but they do have different voltage and capacitance ratings. Dig up one of the OLD electrical machinery text books from the 40s or 50s. They usually had good descriptions of that kind of thing. the modern text books don't say crap about motors. Joe From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 18 08:58:59 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:58:59 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> <16954.58253.213000.850631@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >> Are these capacitors electrolytics at all? I thought that motor > >> capacitors were generally oil-filled, but not electrolytic. > > William> Nearly all are oil, but every so often you see an > William> electrolytic version. The oil caps will likely be good long > William> after we are gone. > > There are motor start caps and motor run caps. The former have much > higher capacitance and are only connected for a few seconds during > motor start. So my understanding is that start caps are often > electrolytic because you can get away with it, while run caps are not > because they are subjected to AC full time. What you are saying is consistent with what I see on most sites selling these things. There, "run" caps are generally oil, and "start" caps are generally electrolytic. The exception being the occasional "start/run" cap, whatever that is. The original caps in the TU56 are high capacitance, and clearly electrolytic. But they appear to be wired for continuous phase shifting duty. Hence some of the people on the list insisting that they are "run" caps, and that the beefier, more expensive "run" cap should be used. Finding a 100uf oil-filled "run" cap is not easy, and they tend to be expensive (as Jay pointed out). Unfortunately, I do not have any insight as to whether the relatively inexpensive electrolytics can be used, or whether the expensive oil-filled caps are needed. The TU55 uses a 7uf oil capacitor in this role, which again argues for a "run" capacitor, except the values are wildly different. Is it possible "start" caps were used in the TU56 to save $$, but are being derated somehow so they can be used as "run" caps?? Vince From rickb at bensene.com Fri Mar 18 09:13:18 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:13:18 -0800 Subject: RK05 Help Message-ID: <20050318151317.C7F942C002@pail.bensene.com> Hello, I have two RK05J drives, both exhibiting the same problem. They are *not* currently connected to a system. I have them on the bench cleaning them up and getting them ready to connect to a PDP 8/e system after a long period of storage. There is the I/O terminator card installed in the proper slot in the drive electronics backplane. When the drives are powered up, the "power" and "load" lights are on, and the door release is activated so that the door can be opened and a disk pack inserted. However, the blower motor that provides the air circulation for the drive never starts up. I've checked both blower motors to assure that they are not seized, and the both spin very freely. I traced the power wires from the blower motor to a barrier strip, where I checked for 110V AC power, and there's nothing there. So, somewhere in the circuitry, something isn't right. Any ideas? Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 18 09:16:10 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:16:10 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question References: <3.0.6.32.20050318095441.00a803d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Joe R." > >One note on the ### motor capacitors. > >AFAIK there is a difference between motor *start* caps and *run* caps. > >If I am wrong I would like to know, else what is the difference? > > > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > AFIK there's no basic difference in the two types but they do have > different voltage and capacitance ratings. Dig up one of the OLD > electrical machinery text books from the 40s or 50s. They usually had good > descriptions of that kind of thing. the modern text books don't say crap > about motors. The only difference that I can find documented is that apparently "start" caps are not rated for continuous duty, and "run" caps are. So, as I understand it, the point that Jay made essentially seems to boil down to the question of whether a "start" capacitor used as a replacement would hold up in the operating environment of the TU56. Not knowing anything about the failure modes of motor capacitors, I have no idea. Vince From bv at norbionics.com Fri Mar 18 01:53:46 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:53:46 +0100 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:51:42 +0100, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Your experience may differ, and you make very valid points and I dispute > none of them. However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these > discussions would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly > so) > when poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about > all > those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we > need? > I think the problem is that arcival quality is a very demanding thing. 99% reliability jus is not good enough for that, but it is plenty for most of us. You just do not rely one a single copy. You can always read things most people would just write off if you're willing to pay. IBAS will read your erased disks and tapes, even if severely fire or chemically damaged. Just getting an estimate will cost you a few thousand dollars, though. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Fri Mar 18 01:53:46 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:53:46 +0100 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:51:42 +0100, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Your experience may differ, and you make very valid points and I dispute > none of them. However, I find that media is much more sturdy than these > discussions would indicate. We tend to gripe very loudly (and rightly > so) > when poor quality backup media takes our data with it. But what about > all > those times we go back to our old backups and thankfully find what we > need? > I think the problem is that arcival quality is a very demanding thing. 99% reliability jus is not good enough for that, but it is plenty for most of us. You just do not rely one a single copy. You can always read things most people would just write off if you're willing to pay. IBAS will read your erased disks and tapes, even if severely fire or chemically damaged. Just getting an estimate will cost you a few thousand dollars, though. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Fri Mar 18 07:33:46 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:33:46 +0100 Subject: Byte sizes (was Re: 2.8M 3.5' floppy (was: three and a quarter loppy?) In-Reply-To: <20050316021259.DEAN5558.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> References: <20050316021259.DEAN5558.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:12:12 +0100, wrote: > In message , > =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn? > = writes: >> Hm - yes, I remember he got sidetracked by typesetting problems. >> It took a very long time before it hit the bookstores. I think we were >> writing MIX-simulators based on mimeographed excerpts, I did not get the >> book until long after I left university. > > Was it a translation issue? Volume 1 was originally published > in 1968. No, we did not use translations. It was more a question of how things were done at the University of Oslo. It was customary to publish a compendium for each course, at least for those new subjects which did not have good enough textbooks yet. Those eventually developed into books. I'm not sure of the chronology here. I think the MIX project was on the CDC-3300. We got one of the first CDC-3300s made, but I do not remember the date. It would have been around the time Volume 1 was being finished, I guess. I know the Simula compiler was finished in 1969, and of course a development version existed in 1967, but at first only on the UNIVAC. My only involvment in the Simula project was to use the beta compiler and dutifully reporting bugs, otherwise I was programming in Algol. That made me very grateful to Knuth, because he had made a workable scheme to get input and output in Algol 60. -- Bj?rn From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 18 10:16:48 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:16:48 -0500 Subject: Traditional minicomputer expendables... In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:25:39 PST.) <20050310202034.H942@localhost> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> Message-ID: <200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > * non-lint swabs for cleaning hard disk heads. I've googled a > bunch of likely suspects, intended for the electronics industry, > of appropriate size, but does anyone use such a thing you've found > to be suitable, before I leap into the terrifying unknown (all of > $9.95's worth)? Obviiously to be dunked in 99% isopropyl. We used Texwipe products for cleaning tape heads, the platter chambers of removable drives, etc. in the mid-late 80's. Not sure we ever actually used them on disk heads. They make swabs on sticks, as well as wipes, a kazillion variations. > * "Rotron Filtercoat". Sticky aerosol goo you spray onto aluminum > mesh filters to trap dust. My lab is really dusty. The rack has a > nice airbox at the bottom with noisy fan. Any suggestions as to a > replacement for this long-lost product or workalike? We occasionally used Endust for this kind of thing. De From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Mar 18 10:50:07 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:50:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <16954.58253.213000.850631@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > There are motor start caps and motor run caps. The former have much > higher capacitance and are only connected for a few seconds during > motor start. So my understanding is that start caps are often > electrolytic because you can get away with it, while run caps are not > because they are subjected to AC full time. Very true, but either case is pretty hostile, electrically (especially on larger motors). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Mar 18 10:56:07 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:56:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Unfortunately, I do not have any insight as to whether the relatively > inexpensive electrolytics can be used, or whether the expensive oil-filled > caps are needed. "Normal" electrolytics (as in inexpesive filter caps) probably will not work well at all. They probably would not last long, anyway. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 18 11:15:59 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:15:59 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: Message-ID: From: "William Donzelli" > > Unfortunately, I do not have any insight as to whether the relatively > > inexpensive electrolytics can be used, or whether the expensive oil-filled > > caps are needed. > > "Normal" electrolytics (as in inexpesive filter caps) probably will not > work well at all. They probably would not last long, anyway. Sure, but how long would an electrolytic rated for motor start applications be expected to last? Those are still 10x cheaper than the oil-filled jobs. Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 18 11:31:32 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix Message-ID: <200503181731.JAA26725@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >Paul wrote: >> all too often, priorities >> are used to hide the fact that the builder didn't analyze the job >> sufficiently, and simply hacked the priorities until things seemed to >> work in test. > >True. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen other engineers >trying to set the priority of their task higher than those of other >tasks just because they have some vague idea that their task is >"important", rather than any understanding of actual relationships between >the tasks. > >A good rule of thumb is that in the absence of a rational basis for >one task having a higher priority than another, all tasks should have >the same priority. Far too often a person's intuitive idea of what >the relative task priorities should be is wrong. > >Eric > > Hi If it is important enough to need immediate attention, it should be interrupt driven and not a general task. Many confuse interrupts with tasks. I suspect this is mostly because most preemptive systems use the interrupts to switch task( not very efficient in a RTOS ). Even in a non-preemptive, one can have some priority. Management of the task queue can give similar effects. Dwight From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Mar 18 11:31:46 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:31:46 EST Subject: looking for R3010 Message-ID: <9.4031ca34.2f6c6a82@aol.com> Does anyone on the list have a spare R3010 FPU that they would be willing to sell or swap for? please contact off-list -Scott Quinn From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Mar 18 10:12:49 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:49 -0500 Subject: vt278 References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Hi people; I found a couple of damaged/parts-scavenged qbus boards which I was able to identify as vt278 (decmate) cpu boards. I searched the web and came upon documentation at bitsavers and elsewhere. So it is pdp8-based, using the Harris chips. 1) I found the parts-layout and parts list and have been able to identify most of the missing chips, except for the one labeled "E63" in the parts layout schematic, near the center of the board. This chip is not explained in the parts list. Does anybody know what it is? (it is the 18 pin chip to the left of pin 1 of the lower D3-6121-9A chip, which in turn is the lowermost of the four 40 pin DIP chips by Harris; this is when looking at the component side with the slot tabs pointing downwards) 2) Can one use this board to run older pdp8 software? Can one connect a terminal to the printer port with some special cable, supply power to the board and have the thing come back alive and talk to the terminal? I don't have a qbus backplane, so I was just thinking about repairing the board, repopulate it and connect power at the appropriate points. (the diagrams are at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/, file MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf) -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at nospanners.ieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Mar 18 11:39:22 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:39:22 EST Subject: RS/6000 drive questions Message-ID: Does anyone have a discription of how drives are mounted in a 7012/7030 RS/6k with the 2 front accessible 5-1/4 bays? (not the case with the card-edge connector for narrow SCSI) I think I need some type of sled or cage, but I don't know how it attaches or the IBM lingo for it (so Google doesn't work). - Scott Quinn From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Mar 18 11:39:49 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:39:49 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <52963.64.139.41.130.1111109233.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050318122612.03a09680@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Eric Smith may have mentioned these words: >Paul Koning wrote: > > Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code > > your own. It looks like this: > > > > for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } > >That's only a very restricted case of cooperative multitasking, though >it can nevertheless be useful and effective for many problems. True... [snip] >Many people have gotten the idea that cooperative multitasking is "bad", >or that it isn't "real" multitasking. It isn't! ;-) Joking, but having used a pre-emptive multitasking OS on an 8-bit machine for a lot of years, which ran better / more stable, heck - quicker than Win31 on a 386, one may be able to see why I have a bit of a jaundiced eye towards cooperative multitasking systems... ;-) Which is why I'm still kind of surprised no-one's brought it up yet: OS-9 for the 6809 CPU. Granted, it's for a micro and not a mini (but heck, so's winders, MacOS & AmigaOS) but there is a freeware version out with source and everything (and the last updates were less than a year ago, and there's nightly CVS snapshots available) here: http://www.nitros9.org/ Originally, NitrOS9 was a set of patches to use the enhanced capabilities of the 6309 under OS-9 Level 2 - but they've basically rewritten the OS around the patches, not only for Level 2, but even backported it to Level 1, which will run on the coco 1 and 2, and possibly even the Dragon. Oh, and it's even rather unix-like! ;-) I had OS-9 Level 1 easily running in 24Kbytes (altho 64K RAM was necessary in the computer), and IIRC just to see if I could do it, I had a bootdisk that shoehorned it into 16K, but there were precious few modules in memory for that. It's written in 6809/6309 assembly, so that might get you started... > In reality, there are many >scenarios in which cooperative multitasking is a better solution than >preemptive multitasking. Either type can get you into trouble if you're >not careful. That's kinda like saying "Sword swallowing can get you into trouble if you're not careful..." ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Mar 18 11:45:30 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:45:30 +0100 Subject: looking for R3010 In-Reply-To: <9.4031ca34.2f6c6a82@aol.com> References: <9.4031ca34.2f6c6a82@aol.com> Message-ID: <20050318174530.GN19265@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-03-18 12:31:46 -0500, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote in message <9.4031ca34.2f6c6a82 at aol.com>: > Does anyone on the list have a spare R3010 FPU that they would be willing to > sell or swap for? please contact off-list That's the FPU part of a R3000, as used in DECstations or early SGI Indigos, isn't it? I'd solder one out, but that's somewhat destructive... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Mar 18 11:50:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:50:25 -0600 Subject: Cromemco software - ROS References: <200503162303.PAA25596@clulw009.amd.com> <20050317235209.49536614.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000a01c52be2$fad95ec0$e83cd7d1@randylaptop> I am in the process of archiving as much Cromemco software & manuals as possible (and multiple versions). One piece of software is ROS, Cromemco Resident OS containing an assembler. I have a disassembly from SIGM but it was corrupted. I've pieced it togather as well as possible but there are two small sections missing. I can probably re-create it but I thought I'd ask others first. If anyone has a copy of the software or a manual let me know. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Mar 18 11:55:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:55:56 -0700 Subject: RS/6000 drive questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423B162C.3060206@mdrconsult.com> Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have a discription of how drives are mounted in a 7012/7030 RS/6k > with the 2 front accessible 5-1/4 bays? (not the case with the card-edge > connector for narrow SCSI) I think I need some type of sled or cage, but I don't > know how it attaches or the IBM lingo for it (so Google doesn't work). You want the "Diagnostic Information for Micro Channel Bus Systems" from here: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/pseries/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.pseries.doc/hardware.htm The TinyURL version might be easier.... http://tinyurl.com/5kq9v That document should have case parts breakdowns for all the 7012 series, and probably the 7030s. Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 18 12:07:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question Message-ID: <200503181807.KAA26750@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" ---snip--- > >What you are saying is consistent with what I see on most sites selling >these things. There, "run" caps are generally oil, and "start" caps are >generally electrolytic. The exception being the occasional "start/run" cap, >whatever that is. I believe that refers to how it is used. During the start, it is connected to a high current coil but during run, is is connected to a high resistant one to create phase shift. > >The original caps in the TU56 are high capacitance, and clearly >electrolytic. But they appear to be wired for continuous phase shifting >duty. Hence some of the people on the list insisting that they are "run" >caps, and that the beefier, more expensive "run" cap should be used. Most likely to make the motor run smoother, as though there were more phases to the AC. ---snip--- Dwight From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 18 12:14:57 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:14:57 -0800 Subject: vt278 References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost><200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: > 1) I found the parts-layout and parts list and have been able > to identify most of the missing chips, except for the > one labeled "E63" in the parts layout schematic, > near the center of the board. This chip is not explained > in the parts list. Does anybody know what it is? > (it is the 18 pin chip to the left of pin 1 of the lower D3-6121-9A > chip, which in turn is the lowermost of the four 40 pin DIP chips > by Harris; this is when looking at the component side with > the slot tabs pointing downwards) Mine has an empty socket there. Looks from how it is wired that it is meant to take another m1-6322-9, like the three above it. (Perhaps an option ROM?) > 2) Can one use this board to run older pdp8 software? Yes (some). > Can one connect a terminal to the printer port with > some special cable, supply power to the board and > have the thing come back alive and talk to the terminal? I don't think it wants to talk there (without extensive firmware work). It wants to plug into the terminal backplane (which I am sure is *not* qbus), with a keyboard plugged into it. > I don't have a qbus backplane, so I was just thinking about > repairing the board, repopulate it and connect power at the > appropriate points. >From what I have read, that could be a challenge. It would probably be easier to build a compatible video adapter and keyboard stuff for it. The floppy is an RX01 with a special cable, IIRC. Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 18 12:27:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:27:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix Message-ID: <200503181827.KAA26756@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Huw Davies" ---snip--- > >Are the risks in preemptive scheduling just ones of complexity? I guess >that it is much harder to "prove" that this type of scheduler is going >to to the right thing at the right time. I know that, >for example, the scheduler for VMS has gone from a couple of pages of >assembler >to something like 75 pages of BLISS! >> Hi Huw I think it is more about predictability. Large preemptive systems can lock up in unpredictable ways. They are hard to confirm as operating correctly under all conditions since the number of permutations of conditions is so large. This makes them dangerous for critical systems. Most non-preemptive system are easier to find bugs because they tend to fail right away if there is such a flaw. Also, preemptive taskers often have to save greater amounts of information since they may break a task at in opportune points. For a general purpose OS, preemptive makes sense. For RTOS is really doesn't. As an example of simplicity, for an embedded machine, I used a non-preemptive tasker to run 50 pid controls, a keypad, paper printer log and a LCD display. This was all easily handled with a single 2MHz Z80. Dwight From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 18 12:48:55 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:48:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050318122612.03a09680@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 18, 2005 12:39:49 PM Message-ID: <20050318184855.9212173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: > > I had OS-9 Level 1 easily running in 24Kbytes (altho 64K RAM was necessary > in the computer), and IIRC just to see if I could do it, I had a bootdisk > that shoehorned it into 16K, but there were precious few modules in memory > for that. Too bad QNX isn't open source---the kernel for that is about 8K for the Pentium version (and most of that is probably due to the code being aligned along cache boundaries (32 bytes I think)). It's small size is primarily due to what it does, which isn't much---just task switching, memory management, interrupt service routines and message passing. Everything else (including device drivers, file systems, etc) are handled by userland processes. -spc (It's a very cool OS that fortunately, *is* on topic for this list) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 18 12:53:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:53:12 -0700 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: References: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> <16954.58253.213000.850631@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <423B2398.10203@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: >What you are saying is consistent with what I see on most sites selling >these things. There, "run" caps are generally oil, and "start" caps are >generally electrolytic. The exception being the occasional "start/run" cap, >whatever that is. > >The original caps in the TU56 are high capacitance, and clearly >electrolytic. But they appear to be wired for continuous phase shifting >duty. Hence some of the people on the list insisting that they are "run" >caps, and that the beefier, more expensive "run" cap should be used. > >Finding a 100uf oil-filled "run" cap is not easy, and they tend to be >expensive (as Jay pointed out). > > > Well they are more around I think do to the vacumm tube audio field and may want to look there. http://www.percyaudio.com/ some nice NEW caps here. Still about $50 for 100uf. >The TU55 uses a 7uf oil capacitor in this role, which again argues for a >"run" capacitor, except the values are wildly different. Is it possible >"start" caps were used in the TU56 to save $$, but are being derated somehow >so they can be used as "run" caps?? > > > > > From ICS at Core.com Fri Mar 18 14:07:22 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:07:22 -0500 Subject: RK05 Help References: <20050318151317.C7F942C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <008301c52bf6$7508fe40$312fc4d8@icsdevelopment> Is there a safety lock switch (perhaps on the back) that is normally activated when installed in a rack that is not activated now while it is on the bench? Thanks, George Wiegand Vintage Data General Computer Hobbyist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Bensene" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:13 AM Subject: RK05 Help > Hello, > > I have two RK05J drives, both exhibiting the same problem. > They are *not* currently connected to a system. I have them on the bench > cleaning them up and getting them ready to connect to a PDP 8/e system after > a long period of storage. > > There is the I/O terminator card installed in the proper slot in the drive > electronics backplane. > > When the drives are powered up, the "power" and "load" lights are on, and > the door release is activated so that the door can be opened and a disk pack > inserted. However, the blower motor that provides the air circulation for > the drive never starts up. I've checked both blower motors to assure that > they are not seized, and the both spin very freely. I traced the power > wires from the blower motor to a barrier strip, where I checked for > 110V AC power, and there's nothing there. So, somewhere in the > circuitry, something isn't right. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Fri Mar 18 12:41:50 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:41:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, vrs wrote: > > by Harris; this is when looking at the component side with > > the slot tabs pointing downwards) > > Mine has an empty socket there. Looks from how it is wired that it is meant > to take another m1-6322-9, like the three above it. (Perhaps an option > ROM?) Good, then I was probably looking for a chip that was never there. > > 2) Can one use this board to run older pdp8 software? > > Yes (some). great, I will probably ask for more clarification on this later on.. > > > Can one connect a terminal to the printer port with > > I don't think it wants to talk there (without extensive firmware work). It > wants to plug into the terminal backplane (which I am sure is *not* qbus), > with a keyboard plugged into it. Ok. It's been a while since I've had a Qbus card in my hands and this card really looked like one. Too bad that it won't accept a diagnostics terminal like the microvaxen. Unfortunately I did not find the rest of the terminal. > >From what I have read, that could be a challenge. It would probably be > easier to build a compatible video adapter and keyboard stuff for it. The > floppy is an RX01 with a special cable, IIRC. There's a socket for a 5037 video crt controller in the card (which is also missing). What is the 1/4" plug connector for? Carlos. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 18 14:03:22 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:03:22 GMT Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question" (Mar 18, 10:07) References: <200503181807.KAA26750@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10503182003.ZM19927@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 18 2005, 10:07, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "vrs" > >There, "run" caps are generally oil, and "start" caps are > >generally electrolytic. The exception being the occasional "start/run" cap, > >whatever that is. > > I believe that refers to how it is used. During the start, > it is connected to a high current coil but during run, is > is connected to a high resistant one to create phase shift. > > >The original caps in the TU56 are high capacitance, and clearly > >electrolytic. But they appear to be wired for continuous phase shifting > >duty. Hence some of the people on the list insisting that they are "run" > >caps, and that the beefier, more expensive "run" cap should be used. > > Most likely to make the motor run smoother, as though there > were more phases to the AC. Simplified explanation: In "capacitor-start, capacitor-run" motors, which run from single-phase AC, there are two sets of coils. The coils need to be fed with AC out of phase with each other to cause the motor to rotate. The AC supply is fed directly to one set of coils, and through the capacitors to produce the phase shift for the second set of coils. To start the motor, you need lots of current and a big phase shift, so the "start" capacitor in parallel with the "run" capacitor is a high value. A centrifugal switch in the motor disconnects that once it gets to some fraction of its nominal speed, and then only the "run" capacitor is left in series with the second set of coils. Capacitors passing AC have an impedance, analagous to resistance but frequency dependant, so they dissipate energy proportional to their impedance and the square of the current. The "start" capacitor is only in circuit for a short time, so it doesn't need to be as robust as the "run" capacitor, which will be dissipating energy all the time the motor is running. Of course if the load on the motor is low, so is the current, so the capacitors may not need to handle too much energy once it's running normally. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 18 14:08:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:08:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <54893.64.139.41.130.1111176490.squirrel@64.139.41.130> > I found a couple of damaged/parts-scavenged qbus boards which > I was able to identify as vt278 (decmate) cpu boards. It's either not a Qbus board, or it's not a VT278 board. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Mar 18 14:39:42 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:39:42 -0600 Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <008301c52bf6$7508fe40$312fc4d8@icsdevelopment> References: <20050318151317.C7F942C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050318143733.02340d58@mail.ubanproductions.com> AFAIK, the RK05 will not function without a controller attached. There are motor control relays which provide power to both the blower and the spindle motor and will likely not engage until the power supplies are valid, ACLO and DCLO are inactive, etc. --tom At 03:07 PM 3/18/2005 -0500, George Wiegand wrote: >Is there a safety lock switch (perhaps on the back) that is normally >activated when installed in a rack that is not activated now while it is on >the bench? > >Thanks, >George Wiegand >Vintage Data General Computer Hobbyist >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rick Bensene" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:13 AM >Subject: RK05 Help > > > > Hello, > > > > I have two RK05J drives, both exhibiting the same problem. > > They are *not* currently connected to a system. I have them on the bench > > cleaning them up and getting them ready to connect to a PDP 8/e system >after > > a long period of storage. > > > > There is the I/O terminator card installed in the proper slot in the drive > > electronics backplane. > > > > When the drives are powered up, the "power" and "load" lights are on, and > > the door release is activated so that the door can be opened and a disk >pack > > inserted. However, the blower motor that provides the air circulation for > > the drive never starts up. I've checked both blower motors to assure that > > they are not seized, and the both spin very freely. I traced the power > > wires from the blower motor to a barrier strip, where I checked for > > 110V AC power, and there's nothing there. So, somewhere in the > > circuitry, something isn't right. Any ideas? > > > > Thanks, > > Rick Bensene > > The Old Calculator Web Museum > > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Mar 18 14:42:29 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:42:29 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. Message-ID: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi All, after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my 11/45. The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, but a couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this normal? (I'm using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a slower one). After reducing the machine to its basics, I found I could load an address from the front panel, but not write or examine any location successfully. The address and data lines became active, but the processor then goes into a pause state. I found that the MSYN line was not being asserted, and it appears that one ic on the Unibus controller (M8106) is not providing the correct ouput - grounding the scope probe will force the line, and the processor completes its bus cycle (Yes the inputs to the ic are correct!). I have found a spare serviceable UBC, so I'll try that when I next get chance, and if that fixexs the fault, I'll repair mine. Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Mar 18 14:48:35 2005 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:48:35 -0600 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) Message-ID: I think one thing everyone forgets is there are appropriate high and low tech options for each archiving task. Example #1 About 10 years ago one of the university medical groups decided to scrap their old billing computer and I was tasked to come up with an archive media. I looked at microfiche, microfilm, and paper. Cost was a consideration. We also had a "large" dataproducts chain printer not being used. We finally decided on paper since we knew we would be going through 2 new billing systems in 4 years. Sorted all of the accounts by SSN and then printed out 57 boxes of green bar and placed it all in binders. Advantages It's a lot harder to loose a binder of greenbar than one microfiche. We would have to purchase a microfilm reader and capital expenditures were considered once a year. We had 10 clerks that might want to find an account, parallel usage easy. Disadvantages Lots of moving of binders sometimes to find the correct one, clerks just happened to find me when they needed to move a bunch. Nearly went deaf listening to printer. My time was not a consideration I was equivalent to a graduate student. Example #2 We collected thirty 12" CMSI optical disks of x-ray images from a medical scanner, 1 GB per disk. This was the required archive media for the system. We initially tried to move the data via thick cable DECNET and via a coax based Thomas Conrad Network systems network. Transfer was very slow. Decided to purchase an additional 12" drive and interface it to our MicroVax II, the dreaded sneakernet was then implemented. Our 9-track tapes would hold one 40 MB image per tape if we wanted to save any manipulated images. I offered to copy the disks from the 12" opticals to CD's however the hospital had film and decided that was sufficient. 12" media and drives are now long obsolete. I assume they still have the packs and no disk drives. Example #3 We still have 8" floppy, dat tapes, MO disks and CD's from different medical devices. I usually try to hang on to the tape drives when for example a mobile MRI scanner leaves. Biggest problem is that some of the disks are not file structured in the normal sense. They are some manufacturer's proprietary internal format. There is a standard but it's no help to understand usage of data. What do you do about numbers, special characters and non English characters in a patient last name? Mike From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Mar 18 15:16:52 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:16:52 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050318151520.02410b40@mail.ubanproductions.com> Nice detective work Jim. Unless your "spare" UBC is known good and has the same revision as your defective card, I would suggest replacing the IC on your card and proceeding with the diagnosis. Otherwise, you may just replace one set of symptoms with another. --tom At 08:42 PM 3/18/2005 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All, > >after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my 11/45. > >The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, but a >couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this normal? (I'm >using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a slower one). > >After reducing the machine to its basics, I found I could load an address >from the front panel, but not write or examine any location successfully. >The address and data lines became active, but the processor then goes into a >pause state. I found that the MSYN line was not being asserted, and it >appears that one ic on the Unibus controller (M8106) is not providing the >correct ouput - grounding the scope probe will force the line, and the >processor completes its bus cycle (Yes the inputs to the ic are correct!). > >I have found a spare serviceable UBC, so I'll try that when I next get >chance, and if that fixexs the fault, I'll repair mine. > >Jim. > >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From wacarder at usit.net Fri Mar 18 15:15:34 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:15:34 -0500 Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050318143733.02340d58@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I agree with Tom's statements. I had two RK05s that I messed with standalone for a while and things did not seem to work properly. When I cabled them up to the RK11D in the PDP-11, everything was fine and they worked perfectly. I may have had the exact same problem that you describe when I tried to test things with standalone drives. Motors didn't run, etc. until the drive was properly attached to a valid controller (in my case RK11D). If you really get stuck and need to see what controls supplying power to the blower, RK05J engineering drawings are on bitsavers at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/RK05J_schem_Mar78.pdf Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Uban > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 3:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RK05 Help > > > AFAIK, the RK05 will not function without a controller attached. There are > motor control relays which provide power to both the blower and > the spindle > motor and will likely not engage until the power supplies are valid, ACLO > and DCLO are inactive, etc. > > --tom > > At 03:07 PM 3/18/2005 -0500, George Wiegand wrote: > > >Is there a safety lock switch (perhaps on the back) that is normally > >activated when installed in a rack that is not activated now > while it is on > >the bench? > > > >Thanks, > >George Wiegand > >Vintage Data General Computer Hobbyist > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Rick Bensene" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:13 AM > >Subject: RK05 Help > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have two RK05J drives, both exhibiting the same problem. > > > They are *not* currently connected to a system. I have them > on the bench > > > cleaning them up and getting them ready to connect to a PDP 8/e system > >after > > > a long period of storage. > > > > > > There is the I/O terminator card installed in the proper slot > in the drive > > > electronics backplane. > > > > > > When the drives are powered up, the "power" and "load" lights > are on, and > > > the door release is activated so that the door can be opened > and a disk > >pack > > > inserted. However, the blower motor that provides the air > circulation for > > > the drive never starts up. I've checked both blower motors > to assure that > > > they are not seized, and the both spin very freely. I traced > the power > > > wires from the blower motor to a barrier strip, where I checked for > > > 110V AC power, and there's nothing there. So, somewhere in the > > > circuitry, something isn't right. Any ideas? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rick Bensene > > > The Old Calculator Web Museum > > > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > > > > > > From mcesari at comcast.net Fri Mar 18 15:38:03 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:38:03 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> On Mar 18, 2005, at 1:42 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: > Hi All, > > after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my > 11/45. > > The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, > but a > couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this > normal? (I'm > using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a slower > one). > > After reducing the machine to its basics, I found I could load an > address > from the front panel, but not write or examine any location > successfully. > The address and data lines became active, but the processor then goes > into a > pause state. I found that the MSYN line was not being asserted, and it > appears that one ic on the Unibus controller (M8106) is not providing > the > correct ouput - grounding the scope probe will force the line, and the > processor completes its bus cycle (Yes the inputs to the ic are > correct!). > > I have found a spare serviceable UBC, so I'll try that when I next get > chance, and if that fixexs the fault, I'll repair mine. > > Jim. > > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at > WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK If that fast spike looks like: 5v _|___|____ | | | | 0v ________ ... or similar, this can (will) cause intermittent problems when you load the system with usage like installation, compiles, etc. Especially when the spikes bottom out at less than 2.5v. We saw this cause very "odd" system crashes on 11/70's. Components on the h744 regulators started to degrade, `cause DEC pushed these to the limit. We replaced the two output electrolytic caps, the output (power) transistor, and the two disc caps that should be at the mate-n-lock that should go from 5v to ground. (These are an ECO from the late `70's.) If the spikes persisted, we also replaced the remaining components on the heat sink, the big filter cap, and the bridge rectifier. This procedure came from several months of test and experimentation. In the field, we (AT&T self maint. org.) generally replaced h744's with h7441's. (I can't believe I can remember this! But then again, I can remember the details of RP06 maintenance, too. Fun times!) Mike From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 18 15:39:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:39:46 -0600 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <423B4AA2.4030002@oldskool.org> Huw Davies wrote: > >> Come to think of it, cooperative multitasking is trivial, you can code >> your own. It looks like this: >> >> for {;;} { task1(); task2(); task3; /* etc */ } >> >> and each task simply does stuff for a while, then returns when it has >> nothing left to do or when it's time to give another task a shot at >> the CPU. That sort of system is very simple and very reliable. > > Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree here. Or any DOS-based version of Windows (ie Windows 1.0/286/386/3.x/95/98/ME). These were all "round-robin" if I am not misremembering... (I certainly remember one application crashing and not passing control to the rest of the services well enough :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 18 15:44:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:44:11 -0600 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <52963.64.139.41.130.1111109233.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <52963.64.139.41.130.1111109233.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <423B4BAB.4020803@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Many people have gotten the idea that cooperative multitasking is "bad", > or that it isn't "real" multitasking. In reality, there are many > scenarios in which cooperative multitasking is a better solution than > preemptive multitasking. Either type can get you into trouble if you're > not careful. This much is true. For one, race conditions are practically non-existant if it's designed right. And a cooperative kernel lends itself to architectures that don't support interrupts. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 18 15:45:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:45:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <64205.64.139.41.130.1111182304.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jim wrote: > after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my 11/45. > > The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, but a > couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this normal? > (I'm using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a They are switching power supplies, so there will be some high frequency noise. I'm not sure what the typical switching frequency is, though I'd guess that it would be in the 100-200 KHz range; maybe Tony Duell knows. Anyhow, one would expect some very high frequency spikes occurring at the interval of the switching frequency. But the spikes shouldn't have very high amplitude; if they do, it's possible that you have some bad filter capacitors. I'm out of my element on analog stuff, so hopefully someone else can help you more. Eric From wacarder at usit.net Fri Mar 18 15:53:44 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:53:44 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> Message-ID: Mike Cesari said: > If that fast spike looks like: > > 5v _|___|____ > | | > | | > > 0v ________ > > ... or similar, this can (will) cause intermittent problems when you > load the system > with usage like installation, compiles, etc. Especially when the spikes > bottom out at > less than 2.5v. We saw this cause very "odd" system crashes on 11/70's. > Components on > the h744 regulators started to degrade, `cause DEC pushed these to the > limit. > We replaced the two output electrolytic caps, the output (power) > transistor, and the > two disc caps that should be at the mate-n-lock that should go from 5v > to ground. > (These are an ECO from the late `70's.) > etc..... What does ECO mean? Ashley From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Mar 18 16:18:53 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:18:53 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. References: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01f901c52c08$7866f120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Mike Cesari" > > 5v _|___|____ > | | > | | > > 0v ________ > > ... or similar, this can (will) cause intermittent problems when you > load the system > with usage like installation, compiles, etc. Especially when the spikes > bottom out at > less than 2.5v. We saw this cause very "odd" system crashes on 11/70's. Mike, thats the little beastie! I figured there must be a couple of ceramic caps to catch them somewhere. I'll dig around and see if I can change them. Thanks Jim. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 18 16:25:18 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:25:18 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: References: <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050318162441.05143750@mail> At 03:53 PM 3/18/2005, Ashley Carder wrote: >Mike Cesari said: >> (These are an ECO from the late `70's.) >> etc..... > >What does ECO mean? "Engineering change order". An official modification to the design. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 18 16:32:43 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:32:43 -0600 Subject: Light pens? Message-ID: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> I have two IBM Model 5150s (one original rev, and a rev b). I think I've explored every single inch of the hardware except for light pens -- I would really like to experiment with one and write some software that interfaces with one. Does anyone know: 1. What light pens were available and for which PCs? (I also own Tandy 1000s, and they have "light pen" ports too) 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? I've already tried googling and searching usenet -- the only references I can find are companies selling light pens for modern machines, and tech info that states the obvious (ie. "The IBM PC supported a light pen"... yeah, thanks :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Mar 18 16:32:57 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:32:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > > What does ECO mean? Engineering Change Order - used to make a modification to a device that's already in production.... cut and lift U20/pin 6, run a wire from R51 to U33/pin4, add a 100K 1/8W resistor from the junction of Q7/E to the + side of C141... stuff like that. Cheers John From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Mar 18 16:37:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:37:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <423B4AA2.4030002@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 18, 5 03:39:46 pm" Message-ID: <200503182237.OAA11828@floodgap.com> > > Anyone who's used a Macintosh before OS-X might want to disagree here. > > Or any DOS-based version of Windows (ie Windows 1.0/286/386/3.x/95/98/ME). > These were all "round-robin" if I am not misremembering... (I certainly > remember one application crashing and not passing control to the rest of the > services well enough :-) This is getting off-topic, and heaven forbid I would say anything nice about Windows, but 32-bit tasks in 9x are preemptively multitasking. It's only the 16-bit ones that are still cooperative. However, there was poor isolation between the two worlds and a single 16-bit task behaving badly could (because of the way system resources and mutexes are employed) still cause trouble for 32-bit tasks even though they're supposed to be in their own little hell, as far as the scheduler is concerned. Actually, 98SE is the only version of Windows I don't mind ... well, okay, I can tolerate 2000 also. *awaits giant LART for the topic diversion* -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 16:40:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:40:04 -0500 Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:14:57 -0800, vrs wrote: > > 2) Can one use this board to run older pdp8 software? > > Yes (some). The version of OS/8 for that board is termed "OS/278" - there are some fundamental differences with how that design implements the console IOT instructions and how those same instructions were implemented on older machines. As a result, most code that talks to the console terminal needs to be updated to work with any DECmate. It's a trivial change to the code, but if it is not done, IIRC, old code either clears the recently sent character or fails to notice that a new character is available or something equally dire. In any case, unmodified OS/8 will not work properly on a DECmate. > > Can one connect a terminal to the printer port with > > some special cable, supply power to the board and > > have the thing come back alive and talk to the terminal? > > I don't think it wants to talk there (without extensive firmware work). It > wants to plug into the terminal backplane (which I am sure is *not* qbus), > with a keyboard plugged into it. Not as far as I know... the console firmware expects a certain device environment to be present. Now... unlike the later DECmates, it _might_ be possible to tap off of the CPU board the right signals to talk to an external terminal, but it won't be off the printer port. It wouldn't be the right device pair (03/04), anyway, for applications to work. The part I don't remember is how much of the VT100 circuitry is on the DECmate I CPU board... In the case of a VT103 (with a _real_ Qbus), 100% of a VT100 is present inside the case, and there's an optional internal card to plug into an odd white socket on the VT100 board that lets you reach internal signals, removing the requirement for external serial cabling for the CPU in the VT103, but the DECmate I is not the same design. If one establishes how much of the VT100 part is on the CPU board, one could make a better determination about how much stuff has to be hung off the DECmate I board to make it work. Since I think the DEC keyboard plugs right into the CPU card, IIRC, I would expect that one would at least have to use a VT100-compatible keyboard as a start, but perhaps one could just attach a frequency-compatible mono monitor to the CPU board and have a system. There are other options possible, so many of those edge finger signals are designed to talk to things like the communications option board (4 extra serial ports?) or the RL02 controller. I'd _love_ to get the RL02 controller for my DM I, but I've never seen one for sale. :-( > > I don't have a qbus backplane, so I was just thinking about > > repairing the board, repopulate it and connect power at the > > appropriate points. > > >From what I have read, that could be a challenge. It would probably be > easier to build a compatible video adapter and keyboard stuff for it. The > floppy is an RX01 with a special cable, IIRC. The cable is well documented, and there are two types - one is DC37-to-DB25 for a single drive, another is a Y cable with *two* DB-25 ends. One typically set the DM I on top of a pedestal-mount RX02 setup that has room for one or two complete RX02 mechanisms. It's available with a hang-on-the-front keyboard tray, or a hang-on-the-front (now the side) desktop bracket. I have the desk and desktop bracket with mine. In that configuration, the RX02 drives face the user. From my rummaging around years ago, I am fairly certain that one can dismantle a rack-mount RX02 and install it in a DM pedestal, but I haven't tried that personally. It _is_ all the same parts, but it _might_ need a longer cable harness for internal power. AFAIK, DEC only had one pinout for RX02 signals over a DB25 cable... There seems to be one DB25F-to-Berg 40 board, one or two of which can be found in the DM pedestal, and one can be found in the MINC-11 tabletop RX02 enclosure. So if one has a MINC-11 with drives, one can borrow the drives for use with a DECmate I. WPS-8 was much more commonly used with the DECmate I than any other OS that I am aware of. If you don't need to read WPS disks, I can't imagine why one would subject oneself to such a product for modern production use, but twenty years ago, people did write papers, letters, etc. with WPS-8, and it will still do so today. I would only recommend it as an exercise for the curious... it is not even close to WYSIWYG, and the manuals are quite thick. If you do determine that you could provide power (probably +5VDC and a couple alternate voltages for RS-232 like +/-12VDC at low amperage), and it's possible to tap off some sort of RS-170-compatible video signal, it's likely that you could put this bare board to use as an expansionless DECmate I... if there are any active video circuits in the remander of the DECmate I, though, you'd have to provide them somehow. I suppose one could recode the firmware, but that wouldn't be a simple task to reverse-engineer the ROMs to the point that one could make the necessary changes. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 16:42:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:42:21 -0500 Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:41:50 -0500 (EST), Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Ok. It's been a while since I've had a Qbus card in > my hands and this card really looked like one. Too bad that > it won't accept a diagnostics terminal like the microvaxen. It may have the same shaped edge fingers as a Qbus card, but it's not Qbus. > Unfortunately I did not find the rest of the terminal. That's a shame. > There's a socket for a 5037 video crt controller in the card (which is > also missing). Hmm... there you go... that answers my earlier question... it wants to generate its own video... if you can find a replacement 5037, you could probably tap off the other end of that circuit and feed it to a VR201 or any other "standard" NTSC / RS-170 mono monitor. > What is the 1/4" plug connector for? VT100 keyboard. -ethan From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Mar 18 16:46:27 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:46:27 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <64205.64.139.41.130.1111182304.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050318163932.024e6cc8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Eric wrote: >Jim wrote: > > after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my 11/45. > > > > The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, but a > > couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this normal? > > (I'm using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a > >They are switching power supplies, so there will be some high frequency >noise. I'm not sure what the typical switching frequency is, though I'd >guess that it would be in the 100-200 KHz range; maybe Tony Duell knows. >Anyhow, one would expect some very high frequency spikes occurring at >the interval of the switching frequency. But the spikes shouldn't have >very high amplitude; if they do, it's possible that you have some bad >filter capacitors. The switching frequency of these supplies is in the neighborhood of 10KHz, which I'm guessing at based on my memory of the last time I listened to one whine/whistle. Are you sure that you don't have a ground loop in your scope setup? Have you isolated your ground plug wire on your scope? What is the amplitude of the spike? --tom From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Mar 18 16:42:56 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:42:56 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1111185776.7649.11.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 16:53 -0500, Ashley Carder wrote: > > What does ECO mean? > ECO = Engineering Change Order It basically means that after the product was released, there were changes that need to be applied and ECO's are used to track the changes. Each ECO is numbered (in some way). ECO's can be fairly trivial such as changing some writing on a label, others can be fairly involved. If you're a software type, think "patch". When you see a system, it may have tags that indicate what ECO's have been applied. Some ECO's can be applied in the field, some have to be done at the factory. There is usually a fair amount of documentation surrounding ECO's. -- TTFN - Guy From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Mar 18 17:02:09 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:02:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems Message-ID: <20050318230209.992D23BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Thanks Tony for the advice: > Fuse still blows? Remove the diode between pin 6 of T2 and the -12V line > and the diode between pin 4 of T2 and the V+ line (RH side of sheet 1 of > my CPU board schematic). With those lifted, the supply is reduced to a > simple 12V one driving no load. I did so and the fuse held. I meassured the +12V line and it gave me close to 12V (+11.98V). I also reconnected CR13 (the one at pin 6 of T2) and got the -12V and -5V supplies as well. Unfortunately, when connecting the other diode (CR12, pin 4 of T2), the fuse blows. > I'd supsect (a) a short in one of the output regulators _and_ (b) a > problem with the current sense circuit (round U31, LM311). Any ideas on how to debug this? Thanks **vp BTW I have another question related to another 9915 with PSU probs. What would cause the -12V supply to produce only around -5V (i.e. the volatages on either side of the 332 Ohm resistor are around -5V (not equal, but close). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 17:11:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:11:43 -0500 Subject: Is there a "field guide" for older TI memory boards? Message-ID: I was going through the basement at my old place today and ran across some boards that I bought at Dayton a large number of years ago. They all seem to be RAM boards of one type or another, one marked "24K", the other "8K w/ECC", loaded with different amounts of TI4060 RAM chips (approx the same package dimensions as, say, 5101 SRAMs). I don't have a net connection there at the moment, and I didn't have my camera with me, or I'd have taken pictures to post, but I thought I'd start by asking if anyone knows of a repository of TI board pictures like some of the Qbus field guides that are out there. I could then do a little browsing to figure out what these are from. One guess is that these look like what I've been reading about on the list recently about the TI990(?). They look newer than the boards in my TI980, and a little larger than those. I also found what look to be like TI laptop parts - a couple of daughter cards that seem to be some kind of video controller, and more of a main board, but without a CPU. I have no particular use for them except as a source of parts. If these sound interesting to anyone here, I can do a little more digging and/or take down part numbers and take pictures. No CPU or I/O cards, sorry. -ethan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Mar 18 17:30:32 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:30:32 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. References: <01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com><01e901c52bfb$03fe24a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050318163932.024e6cc8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <021b01c52c12$7b46d400$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tom Uban" > > The switching frequency of these supplies is in the neighborhood of 10KHz, > which I'm guessing at based on my memory of the last time I listened to > one whine/whistle. > > Are you sure that you don't have a ground loop in your scope setup? Have > you isolated your ground plug wire on your scope? What is the amplitude > of the spike? > > --tom > Tom, it's not ground loop type noise - it is not present on all of the 5V supplies. I suspect that a couple of the supplies are faulty, but I wasn't sure if the spikes were a normal function of loading the supplies. I found that the lightly loaded supplies have more ripple than the heavily loaded units, and wondered if the spikes were apparent only under certain loading conditions, but from Mike's reply, it would seem that it is a known fault condition. Jim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 17:53:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:53:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <20050318151317.C7F942C002@pail.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 18, 5 07:13:18 am Message-ID: > > Hello, > > I have two RK05J drives, both exhibiting the same problem. > They are *not* currently connected to a system. I have them on the bench > cleaning them up and getting them ready to connect to a PDP 8/e system after > a long period of storage. > > There is the I/O terminator card installed in the proper slot in the drive > electronics backplane. > > When the drives are powered up, the "power" and "load" lights are on, and > the door release is activated so that the door can be opened and a disk pack > inserted. However, the blower motor that provides the air circulation for > the drive never starts up. I've checked both blower motors to assure that > they are not seized, and the both spin very freely. I traced the power > wires from the blower motor to a barrier strip, where I checked for > 110V AC power, and there's nothing there. So, somewhere in the > circuitry, something isn't right. Any ideas? IIRC one of the 2 relays on top of the PSU chassis (rear left) controls the blower, the other one controls the spindle. And the blower relay is controled by one of the pwoer fail signals. You'll need the prints, of course, but that might give you a place to start looking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 18:02:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:02:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <64205.64.139.41.130.1111182304.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 18, 5 01:45:04 pm Message-ID: > > Jim wrote: > > after a few days frustration, I have got a little further with my 11/45. > > > > The power supplies checked out OK with respect to ripple and output, but a > > couple have them have the odd VERY fast spike on them - is this normal? > > (I'm using a 100MHz 'scope - I suspect they may not be visible on a > > They are switching power supplies, so there will be some high frequency > noise. I'm not sure what the typical switching frequency is, though I'd > guess that it would be in the 100-200 KHz range; maybe Tony Duell knows. I don't, but I think it's lower than that. 50kHz? > Anyhow, one would expect some very high frequency spikes occurring at > the interval of the switching frequency. But the spikes shouldn't have > very high amplitude; if they do, it's possible that you have some bad > filter capacitors. I would suspsect the output filter capacitors. If those go high ESR, yuo will get spikes on the output, maybe even enough to trip the crowbar. Oh, and WRT the UDC card. IIRC, there are at least 2 revisions, and there's a backplane mod you have to do (adding another clock signal) if you replace an early one with a late one. Personally, I'd stick with the card I know has worked in that machine, and change the defective chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 18 18:08:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:08:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 18, 5 04:32:43 pm Message-ID: > > I have two IBM Model 5150s (one original rev, and a rev b). I think I've > explored every single inch of the hardware except for light pens -- I would > really like to experiment with one and write some software that interfaces with > one. Does anyone know: > > 1. What light pens were available and for which PCs? (I also own Tandy 1000s, > and they have "light pen" ports too) I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a persistance). It does work on most CGA monitors As regards machines that could take light pens. The Sirius could (or at least there's a light pin input on the user port header). There's a light pen signal on the analogue port of the BBC micro (I have the Torch lightpen for the Beeb, it's not exactly simple!). The FTS88 could take one as an option too (there's a header on the diagnostic LED board. Obviously the GT40 does. As does the Vectrex. And I think the Atari 400, 800, etc. The Gemini has a lightpen socket (which happens to be the same pinout as the connector between the Torch lightpen and its interfae box, hmmm). The HH Tiger has a lightpen connector > > 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but they do work. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 18 18:47:14 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:47:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: References: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 18, 5 04:32:43 pm Message-ID: <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tony wrote: > I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the > light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a > persistance). Long persistence phospor doesn't preclude the use of a light pen, it just introduces some limitations on the usage model. The DEC Type 30 and 340 displays as used on the PDP-1 through PDP-10 use a P7 phosphor which has very high persistence, yet light pens were commonly used with them. Eric From vrs at msn.com Fri Mar 18 18:49:37 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:49:37 -0800 Subject: Light pens? References: Message-ID: > > 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? > > No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. > There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were > plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet > Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but > they do work. There are a couple on ePay at the moment, too. Vince From wacarder at usit.net Fri Mar 18 18:50:47 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:50:47 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <1111185776.7649.11.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > ECO = Engineering Change Order > > It basically means that after the product was released, there were > changes that need to be applied and ECO's are used to track the changes. > Each ECO is numbered (in some way). ECO's can be fairly trivial such as > changing some writing on a label, others can be fairly involved. > > If you're a software type, think "patch". > > When you see a system, it may have tags that indicate what ECO's have > been applied. Some ECO's can be applied in the field, some have to be > done at the factory. There is usually a fair amount of documentation > surrounding ECO's. Thanks for the explanation. A former DEC employee told me the other day that the RK05 was DEC's "most ECO'd" product. Ashley From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Mar 18 20:21:47 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:21:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 18, 5 04:32:43 pm <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wrote: >> I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the >> light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a >> persistance). > > Long persistence phospor doesn't preclude the use of a light pen, it > just introduces some limitations on the usage model. The DEC Type 30 > and 340 displays as used on the PDP-1 through PDP-10 use a P7 phosphor > which has very high persistence, yet light pens were commonly used with > them. > > Eric > You can cheat with P7 and other double layer phosphors by using a blue filter as they have a medium or short persistance blue phosphor and a very long persistance yellow or orange phosphor. Peter Wallace From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Mar 18 20:44:01 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:44:01 -0800 Subject: Light pens? References: Message-ID: <004201c52c2d$823ffff0$6401a8c0@hal9000> I have an Honest-to-God Atari made light pen in my hand. It has a DB-9 female connector made to be plugged into an Atari 400, 600, 800, etc. front panel "I/O port" ( used for more than just "joysticks" ). I would be willing to part with it for only "half" of a song... Best regards, Steven C. ( Southern California, USA ) > > > > I have two IBM Model 5150s (one original rev, and a rev b). I think I've > > explored every single inch of the hardware except for light pens -- I would > > really like to experiment with one and write some software that interfaces with > > one. Does anyone know: > > > > 1. What light pens were available and for which PCs? (I also own Tandy 1000s, > > and they have "light pen" ports too) > > I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the > light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a > persistance). It does work on most CGA monitors > > As regards machines that could take light pens. The Sirius could (or at > least there's a light pin input on the user port header). There's a light > pen signal on the analogue port of the BBC micro (I have the Torch > lightpen for the Beeb, it's not exactly simple!). The FTS88 could take > one as an option too (there's a header on the diagnostic LED board. > Obviously the GT40 does. As does the Vectrex. And I think the Atari 400, > 800, etc. The Gemini has a lightpen socket (which happens to be the same > pinout as the connector between the Torch lightpen and its interfae box, > hmmm). The HH Tiger has a lightpen connector > > > > > 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? > > No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. > There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were > plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet > Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but > they do work. > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:30:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:30:37 -0500 Subject: itsy bitsy Unix In-Reply-To: <54655.64.139.41.130.1111110912.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <200503170532.VAA18444@floodgap.com> <16953.58069.196174.190699@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0e170687829af97c0bc5fa23aec75c56@kerberos.davies.net.au> <16954.12420.266975.157594@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <54655.64.139.41.130.1111110912.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:55:12 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > True. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen other engineers > trying to set the priority of their task higher than those of other > tasks just because they have some vague idea that their task is > "important", rather than any understanding of actual relationships between > the tasks. Heh... I remember back in the days of VMS 3.x when they gave our backup operator SETPRI and recoded the backup script to prompt for a task priority... our backup person quickly figured out that 32 was the largest acceptable number. Unfortunately, that was hgher than the disk or tape ACP (ancillary control process)... from what someone else told me, we had weeks of trashed backups before things were discovered because the backup process would yank buffers away from the disk process before they were really full. Just because one _can_ elevate a process priority does not make it a good thing to do, especially around high and low limits... -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 18 22:05:23 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:05:23 -0500 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <004201c52c2d$823ffff0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <004201c52c2d$823ffff0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <423BA503.6060200@atarimuseum.com> I've got a crate of them (cream colored and all black)... Its finding a boxed, mint condition Lightpen softwae package for the CX-70 cream colored light pen that is truly worth its weight in gold. Curt Steven Canning wrote: >I have an Honest-to-God Atari made light pen in my hand. It has a DB-9 >female connector made to be plugged into an Atari 400, 600, 800, etc. front >panel "I/O port" ( used for more than just "joysticks" ). I would be >willing to part with it for only "half" of a song... > >Best regards, Steven C. ( Southern California, USA ) > > > > >>>I have two IBM Model 5150s (one original rev, and a rev b). I think >>> >>> >I've > > >>>explored every single inch of the hardware except for light pens -- I >>> >>> >would > > >>>really like to experiment with one and write some software that >>> >>> >interfaces with > > >>>one. Does anyone know: >>> >>>1. What light pens were available and for which PCs? (I also own Tandy >>> >>> >1000s, > > >>>and they have "light pen" ports too) >>> >>> >>I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the >>light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a >>persistance). It does work on most CGA monitors >> >>As regards machines that could take light pens. The Sirius could (or at >>least there's a light pin input on the user port header). There's a light >>pen signal on the analogue port of the BBC micro (I have the Torch >>lightpen for the Beeb, it's not exactly simple!). The FTS88 could take >>one as an option too (there's a header on the diagnostic LED board. >>Obviously the GT40 does. As does the Vectrex. And I think the Atari 400, >>800, etc. The Gemini has a lightpen socket (which happens to be the same >>pinout as the connector between the Torch lightpen and its interfae box, >>hmmm). The HH Tiger has a lightpen connector >> >> >> >>>2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? >>> >>> >>No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. >>There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were >>plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet >>Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but >>they do work. >> >>-tony >> >> >> > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005 From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Fri Mar 18 22:57:47 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:57:47 -0500 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I have two IBM Model 5150s (one original rev, and a rev b). I > think I've > > explored every single inch of the hardware except for light > pens -- I would > > really like to experiment with one and write some software that > interfaces with > > one. Does anyone know: > > > > 1. What light pens were available and for which PCs? (I also > own Tandy 1000s, > > and they have "light pen" ports too) > > I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the > light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a > persistance). It does work on most CGA monitors > > As regards machines that could take light pens. The Sirius could (or at > least there's a light pin input on the user port header). There's a light > pen signal on the analogue port of the BBC micro (I have the Torch > lightpen for the Beeb, it's not exactly simple!). The FTS88 could take > one as an option too (there's a header on the diagnostic LED board. > Obviously the GT40 does. As does the Vectrex. And I think the Atari 400, > 800, etc. The Gemini has a lightpen socket (which happens to be the same > pinout as the connector between the Torch lightpen and its interfae box, > hmmm). The HH Tiger has a lightpen connector > > > > > 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? > > No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. > There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were > plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet > Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but > they do work. > > -tony > There was also a light pen for the Commodore 64 that came with software called Picasso's Revenge (if I remember correctly). It hooked up through the standard Joystick port on those systems and actually works fairly well. Probably to simplistic for those on this list but it is another option available. Greg >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 18 15:19:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: KJ Instruments Model 506 Disk Drive Analyzer Message-ID: I picked up a KJ Instruments Model 506 Disk Drive Analyzer. It's a tester for MFM drives. On the front are the data and power connectors for a standard MFM drive, plus knobs, switches, LED displays, etc. On the back are two DB-25 connectors. Has anyone got a manual by some remote chance? Has anyone ever used one of these? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Mar 18 23:14:51 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:14:51 -0500 Subject: a "field guide" for older TI memory boards Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050318234810.02feb090@mail.degnanco.net> Ethan, I wrote the post about the TI 9900 processor cards. What are the dimensions of the cards, and how many pins? I have two ram boards that may be similar to yours, perhaps a little older based on the RAM chip numbers you list below (assuming smaller number means older). I have the details of my TI 9900-related stuff on http://vintagecomputer.net/ti/TI-990-101/readme.txt. Here is a URL of pdf links to TI-related hardware http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/ti/ and try http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/ in the event that you have a card originally from an expansion unit for a 99 4/a. If you can read Japanese, this page appears to have some info as well http://www.orchid.co.jp/computer/hardware/parts/tms9900.html Bill >I was going through the basement at my old place today and ran across >some boards that I bought at Dayton a large number of years ago. They >all seem to be RAM boards of one type or another, one marked "24K", >the other "8K w/ECC", loaded with different amounts of TI4060 RAM >chips (approx the same package dimensions as, say, 5101 SRAMs). I >don't have a net connection there at the moment, and I didn't have my >camera with me, or I'd have taken pictures to post, but I thought I'd >start by asking if anyone knows of a repository of TI board pictures >like some of the Qbus field guides that are out there. I could then >do a little browsing to figure out what these are from. >One guess is that these look like what I've been reading about on the >list recently about the TI990(?). They look newer than the boards in >my TI980, and a little larger than those. >I also found what look to be like TI laptop parts - a couple of >daughter cards that seem to be some kind of video controller, and more >of a main board, but without a CPU. >I have no particular use for them except as a source of parts. If >these sound interesting to anyone here, I can do a little more digging >and/or take down part numbers and take pictures. >No CPU or I/O cards, sorry. >-ethan ------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 23:47:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:47:58 -0500 Subject: a "field guide" for older TI memory boards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050318234810.02feb090@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050318234810.02feb090@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:14:51 -0500, B. Degnan wrote: > Ethan, > I wrote the post about the TI 9900 processor cards. What are the > dimensions of the cards, and how many pins? I have two ram boards that may > be similar to yours, perhaps a little older based on the RAM chip numbers > you list below (assuming smaller number means older). I have the details > of my TI 9900-related stuff on > http://vintagecomputer.net/ti/TI-990-101/readme.txt. OK... I don't have an exact count, but my cards have _two_ sets of edge fingers, each set *well* over 44 pins, perhaps as many as 100 each. From what I've been reading, I don't think these are from a TI 990... I would have to guess they are from something older, as the RAMs are 4kbits, and from what I can tell, the TI 900 is from later than the 4kbit RAM era. I guess the next step is to get some pictures online and go from there. Thanks for the pointers to the TI resources. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 19 00:01:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:01:31 -0600 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: References: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 18, 5 04:32:43 pm <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <423BC03B.3000209@oldskool.org> Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> Long persistence phospor doesn't preclude the use of a light pen, it >> just introduces some limitations on the usage model. The DEC Type 30 >> and 340 displays as used on the PDP-1 through PDP-10 use a P7 phosphor >> which has very high persistence, yet light pens were commonly used with >> them. > > You can cheat with P7 and other double layer phosphors by using a blue > filter as they have a medium or short persistance blue phosphor and a > very long persistance yellow or orange phosphor. Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can someone explain to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback mechanism if drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get coordinates for where the pen is touching? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 19 00:13:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:13:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <423BC03B.3000209@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 5 00:01:31 am" Message-ID: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> > Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can someone > explain > to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback mechanism if > drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get > coordinates for where the pen is touching? I can tell you how the C64 does it, and I'm sure the principle is broadly applicable. The VIC-II knows at any given point in time which pixel coordinate the raster beam is currently at. Within the light pen is a sensor which can pick up the presence of the beam. The screen is being updated 60 times per second (NTSC), so unless you get the pen off within that 1/60th of a second, at some point the raster beam will be within view of the light pen's sensor. When this happens, a triggering signal is sent to the VIC-II, which latches the current X/Y position of the beam (and therefore the pen) into its registers. Once read, the registers reset for another read. Since this all happens in literally a jiffy or two, there is a lot of jitter and so the C64 PRG recommends sampling and averaging over a few frames before using the generated coordinates. There can be additional switches present for more functions. The Inkwell Systems 170C that I use with my C128 has a simple single switch in the pen nib which is triggered when depressed, but the pen location can still be tracked with the pen held sufficiently close to the screen to see the beam, even without the switch activated. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx ---------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 19 00:53:24 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:53:24 -0500 Subject: ISA Connectors References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a 16 bit one? I was toying with the idea of expanding my Amiga 2000 (with 286 bridgeboard) from 2x16 and 2x8bit to 4x16bit ISA slots and installing a SCSI card, video card, network card, and something else. The 2000 has the pinholes for the connector so installing the edgeboard should not be that big of a deal. Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. Any ideas? has anybody else bothered to try this? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 19 01:18:03 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:18:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISA Connectors In-Reply-To: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200503190719.CAA13836@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot > into a 16 bit one? > Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit > slots are all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. But mightn't desoldering one and cutting off all but the appropriate piece? A dremel or a hacksaw should do fine. I realize it wouldn't be as nice as getting the proepr connector, but I'd expect it to _work_.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Mar 19 01:59:36 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:59:36 +0100 Subject: ISA Connectors References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <000f01c52c59$98803e20$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Teo Zenios" > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a > 16 bit one? I have a small backplane with 4x 16bit ISA slots and 1 8 bit. The 16 bit slots physically consists of the normal 8 bit plus a separate edgeboard for the last 8 bits. If you cant find the parts locally, you can mail me, and have the backplane for the price of the postage Nico From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Mar 19 02:04:27 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:04:27 +0000 Subject: ISA Connectors In-Reply-To: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <423BDD0B.70308@gjcp.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a > 16 bit one? > > I was toying with the idea of expanding my Amiga 2000 (with 286 bridgeboard) > from 2x16 and 2x8bit to 4x16bit ISA slots and installing a SCSI card, video > card, network card, and something else. The 2000 has the pinholes for the > connector so installing the edgeboard should not be that big of a deal. > Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are > all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. > > Any ideas? has anybody else bothered to try this? > Yes, desolder the whole edge connector (I used a hot air paint stripper), and cut the bit you want off with a sharp hacksaw. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 02:39:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:39:03 -0500 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <423BC03B.3000209@oldskool.org> References: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <423BC03B.3000209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:01:31 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can someone explain > to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback mechanism if > drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get > coordinates for where the pen is touching? On the machines I'm familiar with (VLSI video chip like a 6545 or C= VIC-II), the video chip has a light pen input which looks for a pulse from a phototransistor which may or may not have a press-to-the-screen-to-read or a squeeze switch on the pen body (to keep it from firing when it's not meant to). When the chip sees the pulse, it latches its internal row/column counters to a register that can be read after the fact by user software. Some chips (like the VIC-II) can generate an IRQ when that occurs (the initial version of the VIC-II chip, on the C= proto run had a flaw that when they warmed up, they would generate spurious IRQs and hose the machine). The only requirement is that the beam produce a bright enough flash to cause the phototransistor to fire deterministically. From memory, that typically required the application to put something visible to humans as well on the screen. I've seen check boxes, etc., when used to capture simple user input (YES/NO...) I do not know if it's possible to have a dark area of the screen fire the phototransistor or not. -ethan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Mar 19 08:06:27 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:06:27 -0500 Subject: IBM Filing Assistant ??? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050319090255.03733880@pop-server> A friend has a large number of 3-1/2" HD diskettes with IBM Filing Assistant files on them. Does anyone know of a way to open and read those files so that they can be brought in to a current database program or spreadsheet? From allain at panix.com Sat Mar 19 08:39:23 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:39:23 -0500 Subject: KJ Instruments Model 506 Disk Drive Analyzer References: Message-ID: <003401c52c91$727b7220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Has anyone got a manual by some remote chance? Not me, It might help to publish a photograph URL for people to look at. The control labels could possibly be used to reverse-engineer its operation. John A. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 19 08:56:37 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:56:37 -0700 Subject: PerSci Docs list Message-ID: <423C3DA5.1010607@mdrconsult.com> Here's a list of the docs that came with the INFO 2000 disk setup, aka PerSci 277 double drive and 1070 disk controller. I know most of this is already available online, but I can scan any of it on request. PERSCI 1070 INTELLIGENT FLOPPY DISK CONTROLLER 12 pg. glossy by Robert A. Stevens Reprint of an article from Sept 1977 /Interface Magazine/ AN ADVANCED DISC-BASED SYSTEM 4 pg. glossy by Michael Busch and Dan Gaines From same magazine issue INFO 2000 DISK SYSTEM 8 pg. sales brochure for Heathkit H8 Digital Group All S-100 Computers PerSci Mass Storage Systems - Specifications 2 pg. glossy PerSci Model 70 Diskette Drive - Specifications " PerSci Model 277 Dual Diskette Drive - Specifications " USERS MANUAL Intelligent Diskette Controller Model 1070 ~40 pg. April, 1978 PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS Intelligent Diskette Controller Model 1070 22 pg. June, 1977 WESTERN DIGITAL MOS/LSI FD1771 APPLICATION NOTE FLOPPY DISK FORMATTER/CONTROLLER 20 pg. March, 1978 Installation and Maintenance Manual Duak Diskette Drive Model 277 44 pg. July 1977 Logic & Schematic Diagram Diskette Drive Models 270/272/277 31 pg. January, 1978 Product Specification Diskette Drive Model 277 24 pg. January, 1978 Installation and Maintenance Manual Duak Diskette Drive Model 70 Series 39 pg. October 1976 Product Specification Diskette Drive Model 70 24 pg. January 1977 Product Specification Diskette Drive Model 299B 36 pg. not dated USERS MANUAL Dual Density Controller Model 1170 62 pg. March 1980 Doc PerSci, Inc. Product Price List 1 pg. November 18, 1977 From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Mar 19 08:58:54 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:58:54 -0600 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050319085803.0243e700@mail.ubanproductions.com> Speaking of light pens, I would love to find a light pen for my Imlac. Here is the data sheet that I have for the one which I believe was used at the time: http://ubanproductions.com/ImlacDocs/lightpendata.pdf --tom From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 10:13:21 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:13:21 -0500 Subject: ISA Connectors In-Reply-To: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:53:24 -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a > 16 bit one? > > I was toying with the idea of expanding my Amiga 2000 (with 286 bridgeboard) > from 2x16 and 2x8bit to 4x16bit ISA slots and installing a SCSI card, video > card, network card, and something else. The 2000 has the pinholes for the There are 8 bit SCSI card (I once sold my two 8 bit SCSI card for $5), 8 bit video card and 8 bit ethernet card. vax , 9000 > connector so installing the edgeboard should not be that big of a deal. > Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are > all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. > > Any ideas? has anybody else bothered to try this? > > From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sat Mar 19 10:19:50 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:19:50 -0500 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:01:31 -0600, Jim Leonard > wrote: > > Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can > someone explain > > to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback > mechanism if > > drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get > > coordinates for where the pen is touching? > > On the machines I'm familiar with (VLSI video chip like a 6545 or C= > VIC-II), the video chip has a light pen input which looks for a pulse > from a phototransistor which may or may not have a > press-to-the-screen-to-read or a squeeze switch on the pen body (to > keep it from firing when it's not meant to). When the chip sees the > pulse, it latches its internal row/column counters to a register that > can be read after the fact by user software. Some chips (like the > VIC-II) can generate an IRQ when that occurs (the initial version of > the VIC-II chip, on the C= proto run had a flaw that when they warmed > up, they would generate spurious IRQs and hose the machine). > > The only requirement is that the beam produce a bright enough flash to > cause the phototransistor to fire deterministically. From memory, > that typically required the application to put something visible to > humans as well on the screen. I've seen check boxes, etc., when used > to capture simple user input (YES/NO...) I do not know if it's > possible to have a dark area of the screen fire the phototransistor or > not. > > -ethan > It must be able to somehow. I have used a light pen on a Commodore 64 with a Graphics Program called Picasso's Revenge and have drawn on the screen with it even on a completely black background. Not sure how it does it though. Greg >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Mar 19 10:44:03 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:44:03 -0500 Subject: VMEbus help Message-ID: <0IDL0068UYHIOA@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, I finally got a VME Bus for me to start experimenting. I want to connect this to my Ultrasparc 2 using my Performance Tech Sbus-to-VME controller. Unfortunately, I am a total newbie when it comes to VME. I got a VERO-BICC Vme chassis that apparently once held a Force CPU. There are a bunch of connectors on the VME backplane itself. Also, how does one even set up these guys? The chassis has 5 VME slots. I want to use the Performance Tech as the master controlling the VME Bus? and connect 2 (or more) transtech/inmos VME boards.... Thanks, Ram From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 19 10:39:19 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:39:19 GMT Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: "GManuel \(GMC\)" "RE: Light pens?" (Mar 19, 11:19) References: Message-ID: <10503191639.ZM22027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 19 2005, 11:19, GManuel \(GMC\) wrote: > It must be able to somehow. I have used a light pen on a Commodore 64 with a > Graphics Program called Picasso's Revenge and have drawn on the screen with > it even on a completely black background. Not sure how it does it though. It's just a question of sensitivity. The black portions of the screen are rarely quite black, because the electron beam is not quite turned off. Thus a suficciently sensitive lightpen can still detect the spot as it scans past the pen's location. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Mar 19 11:03:27 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <10503191639.ZM22027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10503191639.ZM22027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 19 2005, 11:19, GManuel \(GMC\) wrote: > >> It must be able to somehow. I have used a light pen on a Commodore 64 > with a >> Graphics Program called Picasso's Revenge and have drawn on the > screen with >> it even on a completely black background. Not sure how it does it > though. > > It's just a question of sensitivity. The black portions of the screen > are rarely quite black, because the electron beam is not quite turned > off. Thus a suficciently sensitive lightpen can still detect the spot > as it scans past the pen's location. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Also, light pen software can create a moving lighted spot for the pen to track over dark screen areas... Peter Wallace From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 19 11:10:36 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:10:36 -0600 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <423C5D0C.8050304@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The VIC-II knows at any given point in time which pixel coordinate the > raster beam is currently at. Within the light pen is a sensor which can > pick up the presence of the beam. Does that mean the screen must be non-black for a light pen to work? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 19 04:11:35 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:11:35 +0100 Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <423B570B.20304@oldskool.org> from \"Jim Leonard\" at Mar 18, 5 04:32:43 pm <52458.64.139.41.130.1111193234.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:47:14 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wrote: >> I can tell you that although the MDA card has a light pen connector, the >> light pen certainly doesn't work on the 5151 monitor (far too long a >> persistance). > > Long persistence phospor doesn't preclude the use of a light pen, it > just introduces some limitations on the usage model. The DEC Type 30 > and 340 displays as used on the PDP-1 through PDP-10 use a P7 phosphor > which has very high persistence, yet light pens were commonly used with > them. > There were some tricks with LP displays. One was to generate "sensitive" fields with a rather dark background which was set to black for every second frame. The decay was shorter for very dark areas to start with, and to make it work with a cheap pen you just halved the refresh frequency. -- -bv From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Mar 19 11:48:35 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:48:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Selectric elements on eBay Message-ID: $4.99 buy-it-now: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41816&item=7501668925 6 of 'em... Cheers John From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 19 11:58:49 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:58:49 -0800 Subject: IBM Selectric elements on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503190958.49093.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Thanks, John. Grabbed 'em. Lyle On Saturday 19 March 2005 09:48, John Lawson wrote: > $4.99 buy-it-now: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41816&item=750166892 >5 > > 6 of 'em... > > > Cheers > > John -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 19 12:07:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <423C5D0C.8050304@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Mar 19, 5 11:10:36 am" Message-ID: <200503191807.KAA14092@floodgap.com> > > The VIC-II knows at any given point in time which pixel coordinate the > > raster beam is currently at. Within the light pen is a sensor which can > > pick up the presence of the beam. > > Does that mean the screen must be non-black for a light pen to work? As far as the C64 goes, "black" isn't quite black. There's some residual light generated, and the light pen will pick it up. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- W. von Braun From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Mar 19 12:18:27 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:18:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Selectric elements on eBay In-Reply-To: <200503190958.49093.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200503190958.49093.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Thanks, John. Grabbed 'em. Most excellent! What The List is for... Cheers John From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 19 12:43:01 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:43:01 -0800 Subject: ISA Connectors In-Reply-To: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> References: <200503190613.WAA16108@floodgap.com> <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050319104242.050f5eb0@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:53 PM 3/18/2005, you wrote: >Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a >16 bit one? > >-Snip- >Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are >all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. > >Any ideas? has anybody else bothered to try this? one word, Xacto saw :) From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Mar 19 13:05:01 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:05:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems Message-ID: <20050319190501.39FD73BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Yipppeeee! The 9915B now works. My remaining worry is that I do not know why! After removing things to allow me to check them in isolation and then putting them back, I started providing power to the different parts of the PSU. First the +12V supply worked, then the -5V and -12V supplies worked, then the +6V, and finally the +5V. Every time I expected the fuse to blow, but it didn't. So now the whole thing works fine. The 9915A still does not work, but I have found that C45 (the thin tall 390uF capacitor connected to pin 4 of transformer T2 via diode CR12) is shorted. That removes power to the V+ supply taking out the +6V and the +5V supplies. Now all I need is a replacement for C45 and I am in business. Many many thanks Tony. BTW the first time I looked at the 9915 motherboard I freaked out, because the PSU is all over the place. In some cases analog components are located right next to the digital logic. But with Tony's help and his schematics, I managed to map my way around the board. Now when I look at some part on the underside, I know which components are on the other side. Like an adventure game that you have played many times and have the layout in your mind. Real fun. **vp From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Mar 19 14:16:26 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:16:26 -0500 Subject: ASR-33... Message-ID: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Just spent the early afternoon trying to adjust my one working (out of 3) teletypes to print a decent imprint. New Ribbons, Clean Type Cylinder, Good Impact Pad. still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the page... Any ideas???? From william.layer at comcast.net Sat Mar 19 14:33:32 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:33:32 -0600 Subject: Friden 130 cover removal Message-ID: <20050319143332.0d988cd6.william.layer@comcast.net> Maybe a little OT, but.. I just laid hands on a Friden EC-130 calculator, and I'll be darned if I can figure out how to take the top cover off of it. The cover *seems* to come off by sliding forward, but there are a pair of pins in the rear that keep it in place. I've tried to flex the cover enough to clear the pins, but the resistance encountered is more than I am comfortable with. How does this thing come off? -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From cctech at randy482.com Sat Mar 19 14:37:36 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:37:36 -0600 Subject: ASR-33... References: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <000801c52cc3$80ed5710$8b3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "David V. Corbin" Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:16 PM > Just spent the early afternoon trying to adjust my one working (out of 3) > teletypes > > to print a decent imprint. New Ribbons, Clean Type Cylinder, Good Impact > Pad. > > > > still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the > page... > > > > Any ideas???? There is a list that specializes in Teletypes, greenkeys. Start here: http://www.rtty.com/greenkeys.htm Randy www.s100-manuals.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Mar 19 14:54:07 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:54:07 +0100 Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050319215305.035ba060@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hmm I have manuals for an ASR-33, they are available for swap against ASR-35 manuals, so well, if you should happen to have them perhaps you can help me and I can help you ? At 21:16 19-3-2005, you wrote: >Just spent the early afternoon trying to adjust my one working (out of 3) >teletypes > >to print a decent imprint. New Ribbons, Clean Type Cylinder, Good Impact >Pad. > > > > still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the >page... > > > >Any ideas???? > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 15:05:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:05:09 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net> <1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site> <009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site> <20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050319160509.252bd01d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:26:33 -0800 "vrs" wrote: > > > I thought the basic structure of the AC electrolytics was that of > > > two matched DC electrolytics wired in series. If this is true, > > > then I suppose a current limited AC supply might be able to reform > > > them? > > > > > > Vince > > > > I doubt if a motor capacitor is made up out of a back-to-back > > electrolytic pair. Usually, motor capacitors are some form of 'oil > > filled' capacitor or modern variant, and are non-polarized. Usually > > not of a high enough value to need to be an electrolytic design. > > These are 100uf 55VAC, IIRC, and definitely electrolytic. I had one > that squirted goo (which had gone all crusty). > > Vince > The capacitors could be oil-filled, hence the 'goo' they'd squirt. Said oil might be nasty and carcinogenic, mind you. (PCBs) But 100uF is rather high for it to be a non-electrolytic. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 19 14:57:10 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:57:10 GMT Subject: Star Trek update Message-ID: <10503192057.ZM22542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> If anyone's interested, I've recently updated my Star Trek page somewhat. More BASIC versions, a little more blurb, and Java and Z-code versions at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ As always, corrections, additions, and comments are welcome. Anyone got a FORTH or APL version? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 15:25:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:25:31 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: References: <20050318001918.29039.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> <16954.58253.213000.850631@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:58:59 -0800 "vrs" wrote: > Finding a 100uf oil-filled "run" cap is not easy, and they tend to be > expensive (as Jay pointed out). > Often, older oil-filled capacitors will have the 'nasty' oil in them containing carcingenic PCBs, which is part of what makes oil-filled caps hard to find. I've often pondered on that fact with the big caps one sees at surplus stores. I.e.: which are the ones that transform your home into a mini-superfund site if you cut them open? From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 15:28:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:28:45 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 18 Mar 05 07:39:43 GMT msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > willisjo at zianet.com wrote: > > > However, I am a tad concerned about what will happen > > to our prized hobby when such items as 9-track tapes, > > TK50s, and TU58 DECtape-IIs truly become absolute > > unobtainium. > > As I have stated many times before, I believe the solution is for us > to open our own factories to make them. > > MS I suspect, rather than 'factories', that it would be similar to being a 'gunsmith.' There are plenty of artisan machinists who make all sorts of complex machinery. There's an active hobby of making hobby steam and gasoline engines, for instance. It's a role for craftsmen, not industrial workers. (Industrial workers by design know little about what they're doing). From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 15:31:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:31:03 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - Power supply question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050318095441.00a803d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113609@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <3.0.6.32.20050318095441.00a803d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050319163103.6621841d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:54:41 -0500 "Joe R." wrote: > At 08:42 AM 3/18/05 +0100, you wrote: > >Jay wrote: > >> Yeah, I'll give you a primer on the capacitors on the TU56.... to > >get > replacements is about $70 each! For the four motor run caps > >anyways.> > >> I'll get to refurbing my TU56 "Someday". > > > >I hope to bring my TU56 back to life this year too ...! > > > >One note on the ### motor capacitors. > >AFAIK there is a difference between motor *start* caps and *run* > >caps. If I am wrong I would like to know, else what is the > >difference? > > > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > AFIK there's no basic difference in the two types but they do have > different voltage and capacitance ratings. Dig up one of the OLD > electrical machinery text books from the 40s or 50s. They usually had > good descriptions of that kind of thing. the modern text books don't > say crap about motors. > > Joe > I work at a place right now that makes motors, and motor-based timers. These days all the motors are imported from Asia. There's a great bookshelf in the lab that has all the old classic 'electric motor' textbooks. A rather dusty shelf, I might add. This is also the place that uses a Commodore SX64 to test electric water-valves, incidentally. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 19 15:32:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:32:27 +0000 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> Message-ID: <1111267947.20170.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-03-18 at 09:08 -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > I have a running 2/120 and 2/50 client. Let me know if you need some help > with yours. Well, it turned out to be a rather successful day with the machine. All of the boards proved to be OK despite the power supply explosion the other day. The replacement caps in the PSU seem to be holding and doing their job. When it got to be time to check out the disk cabinet, the PSU in that checked out OK (apart from one noise supression cap letting go). So, hooked it up to the disk and powered it up without the CPU. No horrible noises (except for the case fans - bearings are shot), and the drive ready LED came on. So far so good. Hadn't found any external SMD cables at that point, so took the case sides off and ran ribbon cables directly from the CPU cardcage to the SMD drive. Hooked up a vt420 terminal on the first serial board, and fired it all up - success! It's running SunOS 4.03 - after an initial fsck it booted to multi-user mode. The Ethernet card may be a source of trouble. It seems to want something that provides an external heartbeat - we hooked up a DEC hub to get around that problem, which stopped the "no carrier" messages on the console. However, it's still throwing up "Ethernet jammed" messages - and ideas what that's about? Also, the disk isn't perfect. It's thrown up a couple of unrecoverable ECC errors during the time we've had it running, so there are definitely one or two bad blocks on the drive. We've got spare SMD drives if needs be. Maybe SunOS has a bad block scanning / remapping command that can be used post-install? (Probably not though - it usually seems to be an install-time thing) Still, it seems happy enough. No sign of the proper console keyboard, but then using the 19" mono screen and a terminal console just for input seems to be working just fine, so that's no big deal... cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 15:37:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:37:44 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: References: <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050319163744.78803b91.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:53:44 -0500 "Ashley Carder" wrote: > > What does ECO mean? > > Ashley > > It can also mean Expensive Change Order, i.e. you've got 500 heart monitors out there in use at 247 clinics worldwide, and a shock hazard is identified that requires a retrofit. It almost always involves sucky meetings, and staff being pulled off worthwhile projects to fix old stuff. And prodigeous amounts of paperwork. (I used to joke about initiating an ECO that just incrememts all part-numbers company-wide by one). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 19 15:36:47 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:36:47 -0700 Subject: other hobbies In-Reply-To: <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <423C9B6F.4090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >I suspect, rather than 'factories', that it would be similar to being a >'gunsmith.' There are plenty of artisan machinists who make all sorts >of complex machinery. There's an active hobby of making hobby steam and >gasoline engines, for instance. > > > I've heard of steam not gasoline engines as a hobby.Now when was the last time you heard of anybody building say a "horse-less wagon" for moving your "steam powered Analytical engine" around the country. >It's a role for craftsmen, not industrial workers. (Industrial workers >by design know little about what they're doing). > > But back to magnetic tape, don't think you can re-create that with out alot of machinery. The big problem is often the chemical process on the plasic or binder/magnetic stuff is trade secrets. From acme at gbronline.com Sat Mar 19 15:46:07 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:46:07 -0500 Subject: VaxStation parts needed References: Message-ID: <027c01c52ccd$0f801fe0$ae4f0945@acme> 54-19288 (-01) SCSI/FDI adapter 4MB DSIMM Please contact me off-list TIA, Glen 0/0 From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Mar 19 15:53:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:53:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Often, older oil-filled capacitors will have the 'nasty' oil in them > containing carcingenic PCBs, which is part of what makes oil-filled caps > hard to find. I've often pondered on that fact with the big caps one > sees at surplus stores. I.e.: which are the ones that transform your > home into a mini-superfund site if you cut them open? The oil found in some* caps is carcinogenic, but it is really not all that bad if you spill a little on yourself. You really need to be exposed to the stuff for a very long time for the cancer spectre to come up. About the worst you could do to yourself with a little spill is a good slip on the floor and a sore behind. The real danger of oil caps is when they burn - the resulting fumes are NOT nice (dioxin compounds, I think). Just the little oil in a few motor start (errrr...run) caps won't really cause too many problems. If the caps are burning, which they do not do well, probably plenty of other things are buring with them, at which point you have a serious fire and plenty of other fumes to worry about. * A large percentage are not PCB filled. Just because a cap doesn't say "NO PCBS", does in mean it has them. Many non-PCB caps were made before the "NO PCBS" label came into force. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vrs at msn.com Sat Mar 19 16:15:29 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:15:29 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <442f3aa442e9d8.442e9d8442f3aa@optonline.net><1111002021.6741.16.camel@linux.site><009601c52a62$1b654370$f71b0f14@wcarder1><00f101c52a6b$9e5672a0$f71b0f14@wcarder1><37247.64.139.41.130.1111016772.squirrel@64.139.41.130><006f01c52b08$15e32e70$f71b0f14@wcarder1><009201c52b0a$6f265e60$f71b0f14@wcarder1><1111080356.8646.18.camel@linux.site><20050317233958.6ea336e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050319160509.252bd01d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: "Scott Stevens" > "vrs" wrote: > > These are 100uf 55VAC, IIRC, and definitely electrolytic. I had one > > that squirted goo (which had gone all crusty). > > > > Vince > > > > The capacitors could be oil-filled, hence the 'goo' they'd squirt. Said > oil might be nasty and carcinogenic, mind you. (PCBs) > > But 100uF is rather high for it to be a non-electrolytic. Yeah, and the 'goo' was like hardened plaster. I think it must have been off-white and pasty when it came out. I imagine the oil-filled caps look rather different when they leak. Vince From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 19 16:44:27 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:44:27 -0800 Subject: Friden 130 cover removal In-Reply-To: <20050319143332.0d988cd6.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050319224426.115912C002@pail.bensene.com> Congratulations on finding a wonderful calculating relic. At each rear bottom corner, there is a screw. It is a captive screw. Use an appropriate sized flat-bladed screwdriver and unscrew these screws until they drop down but don't fall out. Once the screws have dropped down, slide the cover forward, then lift up at the rear, and the cover will come free. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Layer > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:34 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Friden 130 cover removal > > Maybe a little OT, but.. > > I just laid hands on a Friden EC-130 calculator, and I'll be > darned if I can figure out how to take the top cover off of it. > > The cover *seems* to come off by sliding forward, but there > are a pair of pins in the rear that keep it in place. I've > tried to flex the cover enough to clear the pins, but the > resistance encountered is more than I am comfortable with. > > How does this thing come off? > > -- > > --------------------------------------------- > -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- > --------------------------------------------------- > -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- > -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- > -------------------------------- > From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Mar 19 16:45:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:45:59 -0500 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16956.43943.89000.592842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Often, older oil-filled capacitors will have the 'nasty' oil in >> them containing carcingenic PCBs, which is part of what makes >> oil-filled caps hard to find. I've often pondered on that fact >> with the big caps one sees at surplus stores. I.e.: which are the >> ones that transform your home into a mini-superfund site if you >> cut them open? William> The oil found in some* caps is carcinogenic, but it is William> really not all that bad if you spill a little on William> yourself. You really need to be exposed to the stuff for a William> very long time for the cancer spectre to come up. About the William> worst you could do to yourself with a little spill is a good William> slip on the floor and a sore behind. William> The real danger of oil caps is when they burn - the William> resulting fumes are NOT nice (dioxin compounds, I William> think). Just the little oil in a few motor start William> (errrr...run) caps won't really cause too many problems. If William> the caps are burning, which they do not do well, probably William> plenty of other things are buring with them, at which point William> you have a serious fire and plenty of other fumes to worry William> about. If I remember right, dioxins are substances known to be extremely dangerous to guinea pigs, slightly toxic to rats, and maybe not at all to most other mammals... The most important property of PCBs and dioxins is that they provide infinite employment to lawyers of all kinds. William> * A large percentage are not PCB filled. Just because a cap William> doesn't say "NO PCBS", does in mean it has them. Many William> non-PCB caps were made before the "NO PCBS" label came into William> force. That makes sense. I thougth PCBs were used because of nice thermal properties -- which is great for power transformers, but not so obviously important for capacitors. paul From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 19 17:00:50 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:00:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Star Trek update In-Reply-To: <10503192057.ZM22542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 19, 5 08:57:10 pm" Message-ID: <200503192300.PAA11886@floodgap.com> > If anyone's interested, I've recently updated my Star Trek page > somewhat. More BASIC versions, a little more blurb, and Java and > Z-code versions at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ > > As always, corrections, additions, and comments are welcome. I'll have to send you the C64 versions I have. There's a ShareData disk that has three PD versions on it, in increasing order of complexity and difficulty, although they share the same basic algorithm and game play. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 19 17:00:03 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:00:03 GMT Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse?" (Mar 19, 21:32) References: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> <1111267947.20170.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503192300.ZM22790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 19 2005, 21:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > The Ethernet card may be a source of trouble. It seems to want something > that provides an external heartbeat - we hooked up a DEC hub to get > around that problem, which stopped the "no carrier" messages on the > console. However, it's still throwing up "Ethernet jammed" messages - > and ideas what that's about? Have you got the "SQE Test" turned on on your transceiver? You have to turn it off if you have the transceiver connected to a repeater (which is probably what your DEC hub is). What the SQE test does is send a test signal after every frame, to test the collision detect circuitry, but the repeater will see this as a real collision and will send a jam signal. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 19 17:18:50 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:18:50 -0600 Subject: Star Trek update References: <10503192057.ZM22542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000c01c52cda$067fab10$ae3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Pete Turnbull" Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 2:57 PM > If anyone's interested, I've recently updated my Star Trek page > somewhat. More BASIC versions, a little more blurb, and Java and > Z-code versions at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ > > As always, corrections, additions, and comments are welcome. > > Anyone got a FORTH or APL version? > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I noticed you don't list the best SOL-20 version, TREK80. It's on my website in the mirror of Jim's SOL-20 archive. I have a cassette with it also. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 19 17:43:55 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:43:55 +0000 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <10503192300.ZM22790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> <1111267947.20170.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503192300.ZM22790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1111275835.20170.50.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-03-19 at 23:00 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 19 2005, 21:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > The Ethernet card may be a source of trouble. It seems to want > something > > that provides an external heartbeat - we hooked up a DEC hub to get > > around that problem, which stopped the "no carrier" messages on the > > console. However, it's still throwing up "Ethernet jammed" messages - > > and ideas what that's about? > > Have you got the "SQE Test" turned on on your transceiver? You have to > turn it off if you have the transceiver connected to a repeater (which > is probably what your DEC hub is). What the SQE test does is send a > test signal after every frame, to test the collision detect circuitry, > but the repeater will see this as a real collision and will send a jam > signal. We couldn't get it to work with any transceiver we tried (SQE test was off, FWIW), whether hooked up to a hub or not - it still gave a complaint about heartbeat at startup and then subsequent "no carrier" errors (and the "Ethernet jammed" errors). However, with one of these DEC "hubs", connected via 15-pin AUI cable, it was happier - at least the hearbeat / no carrier errors went away - but we were still getting the "Ethernet jammed" messages. As said in a private mail just now though, we'd had this problem with our PDP 11/84 - on the advice of an ex-DEC chap, it'd only talk to one of these DEC units rather than any kind of AUI-equipped hub (or a transceiver). On a whim we tried the same with the Sun, and it seems to have improved matters. But maybe "Ethernet jammed" is just Sun's way of saying that it's trying to communicate with the outside world and nothing anywhere is reachable - in other words it's just a software thing rather than it indicating any kind of hardware prob. Personally I'm just amazed how little work the machine needed :) Apart from four capacitor smoking events and one explosion it all went really well - I'm particularly amazed that the hard disk was still operational. It seems it was last powered up in 1991. Hats off to Sun for allowing a terminal to be used as input whilst output still goes to the framebuffer - I don't think modern Suns do that (it's keyboard/framebuffer or terminal, no mix 'n match) cheers Jules From william.layer at comcast.net Sat Mar 19 17:49:06 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:49:06 -0600 Subject: Friden 130 cover removal In-Reply-To: <20050319224426.115912C002@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050319143332.0d988cd6.william.layer@comcast.net> <20050319224426.115912C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20050319174906.3dc78fed.william.layer@comcast.net> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:44:27 -0800 "Rick Bensene" wrote: > Congratulations on finding a wonderful calculating relic. > > At each rear bottom corner, there is a screw. It is a captive screw. Use > an appropriate sized > flat-bladed screwdriver and unscrew these screws until they drop down but > don't fall out. > Once the screws have dropped down, slide the cover forward, then lift up at > the rear, and > the cover will come free. Thanks a lot Rick, I fiddled with it for an hour.. Overall, it seems to be working fine. I brought it up slowly on my variac, over the course of an hour. At full line voltage (120 RMS), it's drawing about 300mA - this seems good to me. Aluminum parts of the case are a little spotty, but that should clean up.. maybe a little Nev-r-dull? The rest cleaned up fine with a rag and some 409. I do hear a little whine from the CRT's oscillator(s), is that anything to be concerned about? Lastly, the blue plastic screen is cracked in two. Any suggestions for a replacement? Seems like generic blue plexi to me. Thanks again!! Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Mar 19 15:54:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:54:19 -0500 Subject: IBM Filing Assistant ??? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050319090255.03733880@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050319165419.0092c890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm pretty sure that I have an original IBM Filing Assistant SW package. That would at least allow you to read the disk. You should be able to "print" to a ASCII file. Then you can then import it into anything that you like. OR Have you looked at the raw data files? Is the data readable? if so how are the fields delimited? I used to convert a lot of raw files to other formats using Lotus 123 V2.01 and Dbase II+. Even if they can't read the FA database directly, they have a LOT of options in their Import commands. You can import data from fixed width fields or fields delimited with ANY character without much trouble. Joe At 09:06 AM 3/19/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >A friend has a large number of 3-1/2" HD diskettes with IBM Filing >Assistant files on them. > >Does anyone know of a way to open and read those files so that they can be >brought in to a current database program or spreadsheet? > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 17:58:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:58:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <017c01c52c1d$8759a500$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> from "vrs" at Mar 18, 5 04:49:37 pm Message-ID: > > > > 2. Does anyone have any light pens for sale or trade? > > > > No, but it's not hard to make one if you don't require high resolution. > > There was at least one design in 80-micro for the Tandy 1000. There were > > plenty of designs for the Beeb (most of them use the Honeywell 'Sweet > > Spot' devices). Thoese were not as good as the Torch one I mentioned, but > > they do work. > > There are a couple on ePay at the moment, too. It may be worth mentioning that microcomputer light pens tend to be somewhat interchabeable. They need either +5V, +12V, or both as power, The actual light pen signal is a pulse that occurs when the light pen detects light from the CRT screen, it's almost always TTL level, and the only possible problem here is that it's the wrong polarity, which can be trivially fixed with a 74x04 inverter. If there's a pushbutton switch on the light pen, most likely it just grounds the appropraite wire when pressed. DEC lightpens (at least the one on my GT40) are different. They're just the phototransistor, the amplifier, etc, is inside the display. Microcomputer lightpens tend to put the electronics in the pen or its interface box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 18:08:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:08:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Light pens? In-Reply-To: <423BC03B.3000209@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 19, 5 00:01:31 am Message-ID: > Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can someone explain > to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback mechanism if A light pen is beaically a small light detector (normally a phototransistor) that detects the ligth from the screen. Since the image on the screen is scanned (either as a raster, or as vectors), you get a pulse from the light pne output as the part of the image that the light pen is aimed at is being refreshed. Typcially, on raster scan systems (like almsot all microcomputers), the CRT controller takes the light pen signal and uses it to latch the current video RAM address, or the X/Y coordinates, or something like that. The latched values can then be read out by the processor. > drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get It can't. Period. Any comptuer/light pen that claims to is doing one of 2 things. Either displaying, say, a 3*3 array of pixels under the light pen, and the computer moves said pattern to keep the middle pixel under the light pen (this is how a lot of vector displays did it -- if the light pen posiition is 'lost' for any reason, it was typical to sweep a line across the screen, then down the screen, to find it again) Or more likely, the 'black' screen isn't totally black, but a very dark grey or something. Dark enough that _you_ don't notice it, but the light pen does -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 18:11:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISA Connectors In-Reply-To: <000d01c52c50$58d929c0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Mar 19, 5 01:53:24 am Message-ID: > > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a > 16 bit one? Isn't it just a standard 0/1" pitch edge connector? It shouldn't be hard to get. > > I was toying with the idea of expanding my Amiga 2000 (with 286 bridgeboard) > from 2x16 and 2x8bit to 4x16bit ISA slots and installing a SCSI card, video > card, network card, and something else. The 2000 has the pinholes for the > connector so installing the edgeboard should not be that big of a deal. > Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are > all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. IIRC, there's sigificant space between the 2 parts of the connector, so it should be possible to cut your desoldered connector apart and use only the '16 bit' part. Or can't you desolder the '8 bit' connectr from the Amiga and remplace the lot with one of the connectors from the old motherboard? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 18:24:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:24:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems In-Reply-To: <20050319190501.39FD73BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Mar 19, 5 02:05:01 pm Message-ID: > > > Yipppeeee! The 9915B now works. My remaining worry is that I do not Excellent... > know why! After removing things to allow me to check them in isolation > and then putting them back, I started providing power to the different > parts of the PSU. First the +12V supply worked, then the -5V and -12V > supplies worked, then the +6V, and finally the +5V. Every time I expected > the fuse to blow, but it didn't. So now the whole thing works fine. I _hate_ faults like that. There almost certainly is something wrong, and it'll come back at the wrong moment. However, it's difficult, if not impossible, to find a fault that's not there at the time, so all you can do is wait... > > The 9915A still does not work, but I have found that C45 (the thin tall > 390uF capacitor connected to pin 4 of transformer T2 via diode CR12) is > shorted. That removes power to the V+ supply taking out the +6V and > the +5V supplies. RIght. And doubtless really loads T2, either triggering the current limit circuit, or at the very least pulling other supplies down. > > Now all I need is a replacement for C45 and I am in business. HP really loved to use silly value capacitors in their PSUs for no good reasons as dar as I can see. The tolerance on an electrolytic is typically something like +/-20%, or even +50%/-20%. Which makes me wonder why I have a PSU board with an assortment of 5600uF and 6000uF caps on it. As another example, the 9845 PSU contains som 810uF caps -- 820uF is a prefered value. Hmmm... I, therefore, wouldn't worry too much about getting an exact replacement for C45. I would think a 470uF would be fine. > > Many many thanks Tony. > > BTW the first time I looked at the 9915 motherboard I freaked out, > because the PSU is all over the place. In some cases analog components At least HP did provide some links to disconnect the 3 main PSU outputs from the rest of the machine.. Incidetnally, the 9915 PSU is by no means the most complex HP computer supply I've seen. That honour goes to the 9845..... > are located right next to the digital logic. But with Tony's help and > his schematics, I managed to map my way around the board. Now when I If anyone else needs them, they're now on a CD-ROM with many other reverse-enginnered HP calculator scheamtics. You get it from Dave Colver (secretary+hpcc.org), IIRC it costs \pounds 15.00, and I think he can take Paypal (unlike me, he deosn't mind new ideas :-)). Here's a list of what you get : chargers/eramco_pp Portable Plus car charger (Eramco) chargers/hp82028 chargers/hp82054 Car charger chargers/hp82055 Woodstock car charger desktops/hp110 `Portable' desktops/hp86b desktop computer, external video monitor desktops/hp87 HP87 and HP87XM desktop computers desktops/hp9100b First generation RPN desktop desktops/hp9810 Second generation RPN desktop desktops/hp9815 RPN desktop calculator desktops/hp9825 First HPL desktop (also covers 9831 BASIC desktop) desktops/hp9830 First BASIC desktop desktops/hp9915 Industrial control computer (based on HP85) desktops/integral Portable unix machine handhelds/classic/hp35 First handheld scientific handhelds/classic/hp45 Second handheld scientific handhelds/classic/hp55 Scientific with timer handhelds/classic/hp65 First handheld programmable handhelds/classic/hp67 Handheld programmable handhelds/classic/hp70 Simple financial handheld handhelds/classic/hp80 Financial handheld handhelds/hp48sxKeyboard HP48SX keyboard matrix handhelds/printing_classic/hp46 Printing 45 handhelds/printing_classic/hp81 Printing 80 (with many more functions) handhelds/spice/hp32e Non-continuous memory Spice (other 3xE are similar) handhelds/spice/hp33c Continuous memory Spice (other 3xC are similar) handhelds/sting/hp10a Printing adding machine handhelds/sting/hp19c Programming printing calculator handhelds/topcat/hp91 Printing scientific calculator handhelds/topcat/hp92 Printing financial calculator handhelds/topcat/hp95c Never-released printing programmable calculator handhelds/topcat/hp97sio I/O module part of HP97S handhelds/voyager/hp16c Programmer's calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp21 Scientific calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp22 Financial calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp25 Programmable calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp25c Continuous memory programmable calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp27 Financial and scientific calculator handhelds/woodstock/hp29c Continuous memory programmable calculator peripherals/hhp_eprom EPROM box for HP41 peripherals/hp2671g HPIB Thermal printer peripherals/hp7440hpib HPIB ColourPro plotter peripherals/hp7470opt003 HPIL Plotter peripherals/hp7475 HPIB Plotter peripherals/hp82104 Card reader for HP41 peripherals/hp82143 Dedicated thermal printer for HP41 peripherals/hp82162 HPIL thermal printer peripherals/hp82168 HPIL modem peripherals/hp82440a IR thermal printer peripherals/hp82440b IR thermal printer peripherals/hp82985 Portable Plus video interface peripherals/hp9114a HPIL disk drivc peripherals/hp9114b HPIL disk drive peripherals/hp98034 HPIB interface for HP9825 peripherals/hp98035 Real time clock module for HP9825 peripherals/hp98036 RS232 interface for HP9825 peripherals/hp9866 Thermal printer for 9800-series peripherals/hp9877 External tape drive for HP9825 peripherals/hp9878 Expansion chassis for HP9825 peripherals/rsu Eramco MLDL unit for HP41 peripherals/rsu2 Eramco MLDL for HP41 (card reader case) peripherals/wand75d Wand for the HP75D -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 19 18:27:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:27:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> from "David V. Corbin" at Mar 19, 5 03:16:26 pm Message-ID: > > Just spent the early afternoon trying to adjust my one working (out of 3) > teletypes > > to print a decent imprint. New Ribbons, Clean Type Cylinder, Good Impact > Pad. > > > > still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the > page... A few thoughts in no particular order : Isn't there a front-back platten adjustment affects print density (particularly if the platten is too far back). A new ribbon -- is it really NOS? -- could have dried out in storage OK, if it's not those, then I'd check the print hammer carefully, In particular, you want to check the spring tension, and strip down the carriage and clean off any gummy lubricant. The hammer has to move freely to give a good 'wack' to the sylinder. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 19 18:49:12 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:49:12 GMT Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse?" (Mar 19, 23:43) References: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> <1111267947.20170.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503192300.ZM22790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1111275835.20170.50.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503200049.ZM23029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 19 2005, 23:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > We couldn't get it to work with any transceiver we tried (SQE test was > off, FWIW), whether hooked up to a hub or not - it still gave a > complaint about heartbeat at startup and then subsequent "no carrier" > errors (and the "Ethernet jammed" errors). The complaint about "heartbeat" is because the interface is expecting to see the SQE test appear a few bit times after the end of the frame. "Ethernet jammed" might mean it's seeing a continuous jam signal, or at least sees a jam signal when it listens to the wire to see if it can transmit. A jam signal is what a repeater puts on the wire when it detects a collision (and it would see the SQE test signal as a collision). It's an alternating set of 1s and 0s that lasts 96 bit times, as I recall (an ordinary station can also generate a jam signal but not such a long one), and the object of that is to force everything to see a collision and back off. Now it so happens that 96 bit times is also the interframe gap length, so if you have a repeater with a transceiver set to do SQE tests, it sends an SQE test starting a few bit times into the IFG, then generates a jam which will still be there slightly after the end of the IFG, just when the station might be checking for carrier again. Have you got another repeater somewhere with a transceiver on it? Or are you missing a terminator so that the voltage is out of spec and might look like a collision? > As said in a private mail just now though, we'd had this problem with > our PDP 11/84 - on the advice of an ex-DEC chap, it'd only talk to one > of these DEC units rather than any kind of AUI-equipped hub (or a > transceiver). On a whim we tried the same with the Sun, and it seems to > have improved matters. I've had various DEC machines, like my 11/83, attached to both thickwire and thinwire with non-DEC transceivers and never had a problem. I do check the SQE test, though :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Mar 19 19:11:01 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:11:01 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423CCDA5.8050001@compsys.to> >McFadden, Mike wrote: >I think one thing everyone forgets is there are appropriate high and low >tech options for each archiving task. >[Snip] > Jerome Fine replies: I think you addressed the long term problem, but did not discuss the solution. Some have mentioned it, perhaps the solution needs to be emphasized AGAIN! >From what I understand, if any files need to be kept and accessed for more than 2 to 3 years, the only way to be sure is to actually copy the files AGAIN as often as is found necessary with any given media at that stage in the cycle. A cycle can be anywhere from 1 year to 20 years depending on how long the current media last and how long drives are available to read the current media. As soon as either the current media start to degrade or the drives are no longer manufactured, then it is time to shift to new media (of the same type) or new drives using the different media. Over the past 20 years, I have noticed that I have needed to shift from tapes to magneto optical media and now to DVDs. I expect that within 10 years I may again need to shift. The key is to always keep a bit ahead of the problem rather than waiting until the problems such as NASA has with old tapes that can no longer be read with tape drives that rarely work in any case. Since media seems to change more quickly these days than previously, it just may be necessary to adopt a 2 to 3 year cycle and make additional backups to ensure that the files are not ever lost for as long as the files are considered useful. Fortunately, since storage capacity is becoming larger and larger, the problems for a given set of files actually become smaller. For example, I still use a Pentium III (started in 2002). Initially, I settled for a CD burner, but that was already too small from the start for my system for easy archives since my backup image files were about 1 GByte. Even after 3 years as I have been able to eliminate redundant files, the backup image is still over 800 MBytes. Fortunately, about 2 years ago, the DVD burners (I use a P05) fell to within almost reasonable cost (for a hobby budget) and I started to share a drive every 4 months at which point I copied 4 monthly backup images to the DVD-R. Repeating every 4 months means I use only 3 DVD-R blanks a year which is a very reasonable yearly cost. I just mention my personal experience as an example. Other users will have their own requirements. By the way, I originally started on a PDP-11 with RX03 being my primary backup (not mentioned above). After about 5 years I shifted to the TK25 (DC600A tapes of 50 MBytes) followed by the TK70 (tapes of 290 MBytes). Since all backup files were 32 MBytes of 32 MByte RT-11 partitions (without compression), the TK70 was a big improvement. After I switched to a magneto optical backup (Sony SMO S-501), the big advantage was that I could update the SMO media with just the few changes and then verify the complete media against the 8 RT-11 partitions per each side of the SMO media. When I shifted to using E11 under Windows 98 SE, the same SMO media could be used as backup on Pentium systems. When the DVD burner finally became economical, in addition to the files under the FAT32 directory for Windows 98 SE, I also made a backup of the PDP-11 files which currently occupy only a single DVD. One additional suggestion is that before I burn the backup images to the DVD, I also make up a file with the 4 MD5 values for the 4 image files. This ensures that when I verify that the files can still be read that the files are also correct - assuming that the file with the MD5 values can also be read. I ensure that by keeping all MD5 files on line and writing all of them to all future backup DVDs. What I suspect I will end up doing is after 4 years is to make up a DVD with 4 backup image files from December 31st of each year which will allow me to downgrade the importance of the monthly backup files. AGAIN, the key point is that an archived file can't be assumed to be readable after more than 2 or 3 years. It must be verified in some manner - as in my example by checking that the MD5 value is still correct. And after 4 or 5 years, it is also probably prudent to make a more recent copy such as I have suggested. And finally, after 10 years, it is probably essential to consider switching to the current media and drives if they are no longer being manufactured. Naturally, all the other aspects of making multiple copies and not filling the complete DVD also apply. Probably the only new items I have really mentioned is the use of the MD5 value and to emphasize that archived files must be periodically verified to be sure that they are still readable BEFORE they degrade. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 19 19:30:33 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:30:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/45 partial success. In-Reply-To: <20050319163744.78803b91.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <1c957d2772c2fc836fa11b31fc8b252c@comcast.net> <20050319163744.78803b91.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33262.64.169.63.74.1111282233.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Scott wrote: > I used to joke about initiating > an ECO that just incrememts all part-numbers company-wide by one. I've seen cases where releasing a new firmware revision requires nearly fifty new part numbers assigned, and over five hundred signatures on all the resulting engineering documents (including but not limited to ECOs). The firmware release has to be signed off, which might take five signatures. Suppose there are eight EPROMs involved. Each one gets a new part number assigned for the new revision, and each of those has an ECO that needs seven signature. The EPROMs go on a daughterboard, so the BOM and parts placement diagrams have to be revised, each of which needs another seven signatures. The motherboard into which the daughterboard plugs in needs its parts list and BOM revised, for another seven. The parent card cage assembly needs its parts list and BOM revised, for another seven. The chassis parts list and BOM are revised... the system parts list and BOM is revised... the ship list is revised... the customer documentation is revised... and I think I missed a bunch of other things in the chain as well. Oh yeah, there was paperwork for the part number assignment for the new revisions of all the subassemblies and assemblies. And updated test specifications and procedures. And that's for a product that was not for use in medical or life- critical applications, and that didn't need any certifications other than the usual UL and FCC Part 15. It turned out that there was *much* less paperwork involved in releasing a software update that shipped as a separate "product", to be installed by the customer or an FE. At one time I thought that perhaps a higher level assembly parts list and BOM should refer to the "most recent revision" of a subassembly, but after a little more thought I realized that doing it that way would be disasterous because you'd completely lose traceability. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 19 19:33:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <16956.43943.89000.592842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16956.43943.89000.592842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <33287.64.169.63.74.1111282381.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Paul wrote: > If I remember right, dioxins are substances known to be extremely > dangerous to guinea pigs, slightly toxic to rats, and maybe not at all > to most other mammals... I'm sure that's very comforting to Viktor Yushchenko, who is suffering from dioxin poisoning. Eric From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Mar 19 19:40:25 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:40:25 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: Message-ID: <000701c52ced$ca1f3000$6401a8c0@hal9000> I've found C and H surplus here in California to be an excellent source for all kinds of semi-exotic parts ( like capacitors ) for old Tek and HP test equipment, old computers, Tesla Coils and Ham Radio gear. Their link is below and they have a great catalog they'll send you for free. If you call them they will do there best to help you and not just try to get you off the phone. They are located in Pasadena and will ship to just about anywhere ( except the International Space Station ). Best regards, and good luck, Steven C. From rickb at bensene.com Sat Mar 19 21:15:23 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:15:23 -0800 Subject: Friden 130 cover removal In-Reply-To: <20050319174906.3dc78fed.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050320031523.AC50B2C002@pail.bensene.com> > Thanks a lot Rick, I fiddled with it for an hour.. You bet. You're not the only one whose been perplexed by this mystery. > > Overall, it seems to be working fine. I brought it up slowly > on my variac, over the course of an hour. Very good idea. > At full line > voltage (120 RMS), it's drawing about 300mA - this seems good > to me. Sounds fine. > Aluminum parts of the case are a little spotty, but > that should clean up.. maybe a little Nev-r-dull? The Nev-R-Dull might clean it up a little. It's probably aluminum corrosion which pits the surface a bit, and it'll probably never be as nice as the original surface, but the Nev-R-Dull will make it look better. > The rest > cleaned up fine with a rag and some 409. 409 is amazing for cleaning up the goo that collects on these old machines. I've also found that unscented baby wipes also work very well for cleaing keyboard goo. > > I do hear a little whine from the CRT's oscillator(s), is > that anything to be concerned about? I wouldn't worry about it. Probably a little acoustic noise from the plates in the CRT. > > Lastly, the blue plastic screen is cracked in two. Any > suggestions for a replacement? Seems like generic blue plexi to me. It is, but it's a thin piece, and pretty flexible. Yours probably just got dried out and cracked. I'd check a place like Tap Plastics or the like to see if you can find something similar. > > Thanks again!! > Sure. Always like to help out folks who rescue these great old machines. BTW, I finally was able to pull my Friden 130 and 132 out of storage on Friday, and brought them over to the shop and powered them up one at a time with the Variac over the course of half an hour. They hadn't been run in over a year, and were in a nice version of one of those rental storage places (very clean, insulated, but not heated). I was happy to find that both machines came up just fine. -Rick From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Mar 19 21:59:26 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:59:26 +1100 Subject: USB Universal Floppy Disk controller In-Reply-To: <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200503141955.LAA24189@clulw009.amd.com> <1110833470.10973.51.camel@weka.localdomain> <1777bd4b4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <08e41a3dd653638921e1c25662e46395@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/03/2005, at 10:31 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Parallel port then. I'd add "Portable across multiple platforms" which > basically means "parport or nothing". Every desktop and laptop machine > I've > seen has had an IEEE-1284-compliant (or compliant to a reasonable > degree) > parallel port. Well my preferred laptop (ie the one I spent my money on, rather than my work one) doesn't have a parallel port. Of course, I can always use a Linux box instead. Additionally, aren't there issues with "modern" Windows operating systems and parallel ports? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 19 22:43:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:43:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh System 7 recreation Message-ID: Done completely in Flash. Pretty damn amazing: http://myoldmac.net/webse-e.htm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Sat Mar 19 23:25:36 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:25:36 -0800 Subject: Low-Level PC Formatting Using Debug Commands Message-ID: <423D0950.80BB0C92@rain.org> I just ran across this and thought it might be of interest for anyone doing a low level format on a PC (not AT) type controllers. It was taken from a February 13, 1989 issue of Tech Times that appears to be a ComputerLand Confidential publication (this is a copy.) My usual procedure was to unassemble C800:5 or C800:6 and G=????:? the address that was a jmp instruction. I've never used the :800 or tried to format a Xebec controller. ******************* Company Debug Command Adaptec -G=C800:CCC DTC -G=C800:5 Omti -G=C800:6 Western Digital -G=C800:5 or -G=c800:800 Xebec Series of commands -l322 -l321 -o322 0 -l321 -o320 04 -0320 00 -o320 00 -0320 00 -0320 05 -0320 07 (use 17 if embedded servo dr) At this point, the LED on the drive should come on to indicate that the drive is formatting. When the light goes off, coninue: -l321 -l320 The last entry should get 00 status back, indicating a successful format. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 01:34:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:34:29 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:28:45 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 18 Mar 05 07:39:43 GMT > msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > > As I have stated many times before, I believe the solution is for us > > to open our own factories to make them. > > I suspect, rather than 'factories', that it would be similar to being a > 'gunsmith.' There are plenty of artisan machinists who make all sorts > of complex machinery. Hmm... Drivesmith... one problem, of course, is that the tolerances for hard drives are somewhat tighter than for strictly mechanical devices such as steam engines and guns. I know people who make both (steam and guns), but I would seriously hesitate to make any sort of drive bits newer than, say, an RK05. Having said that, someday I know I'll have to face at least one round of this... I have several DF32 drives that I expect have seriously worn plating (I've only ever tested the electronics, but I _have_ spun the platters up and down, 20 years ago, long before I knew it could cause a problem). Getting a replacement platter fashioned and turned to suitable smoothness is completely within the realm of accessible tools for steam engines, etc. It's really no worse than turning a brake rotor. My only real concern is _plating_ the platter. Setting up an electroplating rig is easy enough (I copper plated a number of nickels and quarters as a lad ;-) presuming one can a) come up with an acceptable formula for the coating, and b) gain access to the various soluable compounds to mix up a batch of plating solution. Even when that's done, one still has to construct the timing track generator, but at least that's well documented, so one could build the real deal from old DEC bits, or one could simulate a formatter with modern circuitry... the timing pulses are not that bad. Vince and I have also kicked around what it would take to build a modern solid-state replacement for just the rotating media (there's already a prototype 74LS replacement for the entire 4-drive assembly)... it's honestly easier to replicate the entire drive assembly (since that can be done with 100% digital circuits), but the whole point would be to have a modern replacement _just_ for the platter and possibly the heads. Extending the need for a drivesmith to eventually encompass replacements for, say, 200GB rotating media is left as an exercise for the reader. :-) -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 20 01:45:49 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:45:49 +0000 Subject: other hobbies In-Reply-To: <423C9B6F.4090407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> <423C9B6F.4090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <423D2A2D.8060901@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > But back to magnetic tape, don't think you can re-create that with out > alot of machinery. > The big problem is often the chemical process on the plasic or > binder/magnetic stuff > is trade secrets. Surely you could use cheap commodity tape, like VHS video tape? Obviously this woul only work for machines that use up to 1/2" tape. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 20 01:54:06 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:54:06 +0000 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Having said that, someday I know I'll have to face at least one round > of this... I have several DF32 drives that I expect have seriously > worn plating (I've only ever tested the electronics, but I _have_ spun > the platters up and down, 20 years ago, long before I knew it could > cause a problem). Getting a replacement platter fashioned and turned What about RL02s? Are they meant to be left alone once mounted and run up, or can you treat them like big Zip disks? > to suitable smoothness is completely within the realm of accessible > tools for steam engines, etc. It's really no worse than turning a > brake rotor. My only real concern is _plating_ the platter. Setting Turning brake discs is something I've never understood. They're cheap. They're your *brakes*. If the disc is scored or corroded, *throw the pair away*. For the amount of hassle that's involved, it's just not worth doing it twice. > up an electroplating rig is easy enough (I copper plated a number of > nickels and quarters as a lad ;-) presuming one can a) come up with an > acceptable formula for the coating, and b) gain access to the various I thought the coating was sprayed on? Looking at the edge of an RL02, there are clear "dribble marks" where it's run down the side of the disk. > soluable compounds to mix up a batch of plating solution. Even when > that's done, one still has to construct the timing track generator, > but at least that's well documented, so one could build the real deal > from old DEC bits, or one could simulate a formatter with modern > circuitry... the timing pulses are not that bad. I did wonder about such a thing. I'm still trying to get my head round the DF32 timing for my PDP8 emulator. Gordon. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 20 02:31:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:31:55 -0500 Subject: ISA Connectors References: Message-ID: <006801c52d27$5036f2c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:11 PM Subject: Re: ISA Connectors > > > > Can you still buy the 18x2 pin edgeboard that makes an 8 bit ISA slot into a > > 16 bit one? > > Isn't it just a standard 0/1" pitch edge connector? It shouldn't be hard > to get. > > > > > I was toying with the idea of expanding my Amiga 2000 (with 286 bridgeboard) > > from 2x16 and 2x8bit to 4x16bit ISA slots and installing a SCSI card, video > > card, network card, and something else. The 2000 has the pinholes for the > > connector so installing the edgeboard should not be that big of a deal. > > Looking through my old 486 motherboards I noticed that they 16 bit slots are > > all 1 piece, so desoldering one of them wont work. > > IIRC, there's sigificant space between the 2 parts of the connector, so > it should be possible to cut your desoldered connector apart and use only > the '16 bit' part. Or can't you desolder the '8 bit' connectr from the > Amiga and remplace the lot with one of the connectors from the old > motherboard? > > -tony I ended up just cutting the '16 bit' part away from the connector and installed them in the Amiga (I just used a dremel tool to cut half way into the connector and made a clean snap). Since I was in there I did the lithium battery hack so my RTC works again. Now to see about getting the cards installed and working. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Mar 20 08:10:31 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:10:31 -0500 Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>Isn't there a front-back platten adjustment affects print density >>(particularly if the platten is too far back). The platen adjustment for horizontal (located on the right side of the platen when looking from the front of the machine) is already at its foremost location. >>A new ribbon -- is it really NOS? -- could have dried out in storage I have tried both "New Original" [actual date unknown, but sealed] as well as hand winding a current (bought from Staples) calculator ribbon of the correct width (height?) unto an empty TTY reel. No difference between the two, although when handling the calculator ribbon it seemed a lot less "inky" than I remember TTY ribbons to be [though that was 20+ years ago... >>OK, if it's not those, then I'd check the print hammer carefully, In >>particular, you want to check the spring tension, and strip down the >>carriage and clean off any gummy lubricant. The hammer has to move freely >>to give a good 'wack' to the sylinder. Well, it gave my finger a good "wack" when I put my finger where it did not belong!. I do not have the proper tools to measure tension (or other forces), but everything seems clean and free... Stephan: I have some of the original manuals, plus copies from bitsavers. Having and being able to follow are two different things..... Randy: Going to check out the link your provided....thanx! From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 08:29:55 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:29:55 +0800 Subject: RRD40 troubleshooting Message-ID: Awhile back I was looking for a caddy for my RRD40, but the ones I found and received (thanks Joe) weren't for the RRD40 but for RRD42. RRD40 takes a weird plastic-only caddy that looks like a pair of pincers, precariously pinching a CD at the edges...(anybody who'd like a pic can email me offlist). Anyway, my RRD40 I discovered unfortunately was nonfunctional *sigh* :-{ The caddy with VMS7.1 was jammed inside and I had to strip the drive down to the internal unit to extricate the caddy and CD. There doesn't seem to be an EJECT button for the RRD40???? So after I've extricated the caddy/CD by raising the motor/spindle clamp manual, I discovered I cannot insert/load the caddy/CD with raising the spindle clamp. Of course I could only do that with a topless unit... I could only conclude that the load/eject mechanism is kaput.... Any clues anybody? Or time to look for another RRD40.... /wai-sun p.s. I had hopes for the RRD40 to be a boot device for my u/VAXen... From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Mar 20 03:47:36 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:47:36 +0000 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> References: Message-ID: <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > What about RL02s? Are they meant to be left alone once mounted and run > up, or can you treat them like big Zip disks? Try to make adapter to convert from one interface to IDE interface and use CF card. Smallest is 8MB all the way to 8GB and price is good on 1GB and below. If one knows well with SD stuff, great! > Turning brake discs is something I've never understood. They're cheap. > They're your *brakes*. If the disc is scored or corroded, *throw the > pair away*. For the amount of hassle that's involved, it's just not > worth doing it twice. Agreed. > > up an electroplating rig is easy enough (I copper plated a number of > > nickels and quarters as a lad ;-) presuming one can a) come up with an > > acceptable formula for the coating, and b) gain access to the various > > I thought the coating was sprayed on? Looking at the edge of an RL02, > there are clear "dribble marks" where it's run down the side of the disk. > > > Gordon. Platters are very hard high quality aluminum alloys, sliced from big round cast log, ground flat then lapped on large machines. The Fe powder is very fine dust ground up and mixed with thin epoxy and squirted on slowly rotating platter near hub in one revolution and application of Fe mix stops then spun high rpm to spread the coating & fling excess off. Again same process to apply special lube that stays on the platters since the coating is very smooth and wears smooth if it was honed. This explains why the lube get worn off if the Fe coated HD is run too hot for too long, causes the heads to stick at shut down and cooled down. This squirt & fling off spin process is still done with clear coating for the CDs. Done in 2 seconds. SPLAT! Light grey to very dark grey, even reddish plating is usually cobalt or something else ferrous. Plated on with platters rotating to get even coating. Many you can see light spots where holding fixtures was. You don't want very smooth platter for plated platters. Sticks to heads for low density types. It's finely honed like you do with cylinders in engines. In high density HDs like 10 GB and up per platter, the rest of platter is left very mirror-smooth except landing and taking off area (near hub) is laser roughened on purpose after plating process. Cuts down on start up current demands and easier to get heads to take off and land softly. Others left the rest of platter mirror smooth and use ramps to park the heads off the platters. Done routinely in notebook 2.5" HDs and 1" and smaller. Many use this also on many 3.5" platters models as well. I recall that Lapine 3.5" HDs (MFM) was the first one to use ramps built into spring structure of head arm to get heads off the platters in mid 80's. I had few of those and platters were smooth plated type and very stiction-y. Startup: Stepper moves parked heads assembly pushing the fork of rods towards pivot area and locked by a claw on the sprung soleoid coil. Power loss the soleoid simply loses power lets go of that claw that releases rods assembly. Rods assembly is sprung so it pivots out and heads simply get off the still spinning platters, no need to use stepper like seagate does. Clever design. Uses free band driven stepper. Some platters are made of glass. Stopped using this stuff after problems surfaced on 3.5" size. Remember the IBM deathstar era for several generations? But still used on many 2.5" and less diameters. Toshiba I know for sure exlusively use glass platters in their portable HDs. Cheers, Wizard From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 20 08:50:54 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:50:54 -0000 Subject: RRD40 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00b601c52d5c$39524020$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Awhile back I was looking for a caddy for my RRD40, but the ones I >found and received (thanks Joe) weren't for the RRD40 but for RRD42. >RRD40 takes a weird plastic-only caddy that looks like a pair of >pincers, precariously pinching a CD at the edges...(anybody who'd like >a pic can email me offlist). Well the caddy is supposed to be a beige plastic "antlers" AND a transparent plastic "case". If you only have one part, maybe that's your problem. IIRC to insert the disc (which is held by the "antlers" inside the "case" you push the "case" into the drive "antlers" first. Then you withdraw the "case" and the "antlers" + CD stay inside. The "antlers" have DATA written on one side - the CD data (non-label) side has to be on this side. The case is inserted with the CD label side uppermost. As the Haynes manual would say, "Extraction is the reverse of the above" There are two LEDs on the front. The lower one indicates power present, the other indicates a CD inserted. >Anyway, my RRD40 I discovered unfortunately was nonfunctional *sigh* :-{ I suspect it WAS perfectly functional. Whether it is functional now is another matter :-) >The caddy with VMS7.1 was jammed inside and I had to strip the drive >down to the internal unit to extricate the caddy and CD. There doesn't >seem to be an EJECT button for the RRD40???? No eject button needed! >I could only conclude that the load/eject mechanism is kaput.... >Any clues anybody? Or time to look for another RRD40.... >From your description, you are obviously missing a case. > p.s. I had hopes for the RRD40 to be a boot device for my u/VAXen... If you have nothing faster (TU56, paper-tape etc. :-)) then it will happily work as a boot device for MicroVAX 3100 systems. It would probably work for MicroVAX I/II systems as well, if you have an appropriate interface card (either Qbus SCSI or a KRQ50). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 09:24:58 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:24:58 +0800 Subject: RRD40 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <00b601c52d5c$39524020$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <00b601c52d5c$39524020$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:50:54 -0000, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Well the caddy is supposed to be a beige plastic "antlers" AND a > transparent plastic "case". If you only have one part, maybe that's > your problem. Yeah I'm caseless..... :-( > > IIRC to insert the disc (which is held by the "antlers" inside > the "case" you push the "case" into the drive "antlers" first. > Then you withdraw the "case" and the "antlers" + CD stay inside. Hmm...the antlers/CD were jammed inside with the antlers facing the frontpanel/user... > > The "antlers" have DATA written on one side - the CD data (non-label) > side has to be on this side. The case is inserted with the CD label > side uppermost. Yup I saw that. > > As the Haynes manual would say, "Extraction is the reverse of the > above" > > There are two LEDs on the front. The lower one indicates power present, > the other indicates a CD inserted. Power LED is fine. I can get the CD present LED to light up but manually inserting the CD in, so sensors should be OK. > > >Anyway, my RRD40 I discovered unfortunately was nonfunctional *sigh* > :-{ > > > From your description, you are obviously missing a case. Err...you would have a case handy would you? :-} > > > > p.s. I had hopes for the RRD40 to be a boot device for my u/VAXen... > > If you have nothing faster (TU56, paper-tape etc. :-)) then it will > happily work as a boot device for MicroVAX 3100 systems. It would > probably work for MicroVAX I/II systems as well, if you have an > appropriate interface card (either Qbus SCSI or a KRQ50). Yeah I have the KRQ50... Do you have the pinouts of the LMS interface connectors (10pin and 16pin) behind the CD? /wai-sun From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Mar 20 09:58:49 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:58:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for NeXT system software In-Reply-To: <200503170738.13610.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200503170738.13610.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 17 March 2005 04:15, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > > I have just come into possession of a NextStation, unfortunately sans > > media. Can anyone point me to where I can get iso images or CDs for this > > beast? It's got NextStep 3.3 installed, but it would be nice to have a > > means for recovery. > > > > Also looking for the development environment and/or docs. > > I've got a bunch of NeXT's - and obtained additional OS and Application > software from this firm. Rob - who runs the firm is dedicated to preserving > and supporting NeXT... > > http://www.blackholeinc.com/ > > I have no relationship with this firm other than as a client. According to their web site, they're asking $299.00 for the developer CD. I'm a serious hobbyist, but not THAT serious... If anyone with the NextStep 3.3 development CD and a CD burner has a few minutes on their hands, please contact me privately. I've already located the documention, BTW. I was given a box containing NextStep 3.3 "for Intel" along with the unit, and have since discovered that this contains binaries for NeXT hardware along with the i386. So, all set in that department. Steve From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 20 04:36:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:36:09 +0100 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <33287.64.169.63.74.1111282381.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16956.43943.89000.592842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33287.64.169.63.74.1111282381.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:33:01 +0100, Eric Smith wrote: > Paul wrote: >> If I remember right, dioxins are substances known to be extremely >> dangerous to guinea pigs, slightly toxic to rats, and maybe not at all >> to most other mammals... > > I'm sure that's very comforting to Viktor Yushchenko, who is suffering > from dioxin poisoning. > The clue here is that media want you to believe there is a single substance called "dioxin", just like this dangerous "atom" thing. Dioxins are as different as, say, alcohols or acids. I understand from a friend who is doing research in biochemistry, that a couple of dioxins are harmful to people. They are not all that easy to produce. On the other hand, anything is harmful in big enough doses. I think Yushenko got a dose several million times what you get from working all your life in an incinerator. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 20 04:36:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:36:09 +0100 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question In-Reply-To: <33287.64.169.63.74.1111282381.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <20050319162531.412cab27.chenmel@earthlink.net> <16956.43943.89000.592842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33287.64.169.63.74.1111282381.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:33:01 +0100, Eric Smith wrote: > Paul wrote: >> If I remember right, dioxins are substances known to be extremely >> dangerous to guinea pigs, slightly toxic to rats, and maybe not at all >> to most other mammals... > > I'm sure that's very comforting to Viktor Yushchenko, who is suffering > from dioxin poisoning. > The clue here is that media want you to believe there is a single substance called "dioxin", just like this dangerous "atom" thing. Dioxins are as different as, say, alcohols or acids. I understand from a friend who is doing research in biochemistry, that a couple of dioxins are harmful to people. They are not all that easy to produce. On the other hand, anything is harmful in big enough doses. I think Yushenko got a dose several million times what you get from working all your life in an incinerator. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 20 04:47:25 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:47:25 +0100 Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:24:35 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > HP really loved to use silly value capacitors in their PSUs for no good > reasons as dar as I can see. The tolerance on an electrolytic is > typically something like +/-20%, or even +50%/-20%. Which makes me wonder > why I have a PSU board with an assortment of 5600uF and 6000uF caps on > it. As another example, the 9845 PSU contains som 810uF caps -- 820uF is > a prefered value. Hmmm... > Given what I know of HP engineering, I suspect that there is a reason for the differences. In a power supply, it is not only the capacitance that matters. The slightly lower value might be what you get when you make a lower reactance version of the same capacitor. Or it might be a more rugged version, or a higher temperature version. This might even be something the manufacturer had not planned for, but the HP engineers discovered during component testing and qualification. -- -bv From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 20 04:47:25 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:47:25 +0100 Subject: HP9915B with PSU problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:24:35 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > HP really loved to use silly value capacitors in their PSUs for no good > reasons as dar as I can see. The tolerance on an electrolytic is > typically something like +/-20%, or even +50%/-20%. Which makes me wonder > why I have a PSU board with an assortment of 5600uF and 6000uF caps on > it. As another example, the 9845 PSU contains som 810uF caps -- 820uF is > a prefered value. Hmmm... > Given what I know of HP engineering, I suspect that there is a reason for the differences. In a power supply, it is not only the capacitance that matters. The slightly lower value might be what you get when you make a lower reactance version of the same capacitor. Or it might be a more rugged version, or a higher temperature version. This might even be something the manufacturer had not planned for, but the HP engineers discovered during component testing and qualification. -- -bv From edward at groenenberg.net Sun Mar 20 08:07:52 2005 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:07:52 +0100 Subject: Difference between M8728 & M8750 Message-ID: <423D83B8.2A96766C@groenenberg.net> Hi All, Anybody able to tell me the difference between the M8728 (11/70 MOS memory board) and the M8750 (11/750 MOS Memory board) or why DEC decided to assign 2 numbers to it (the M8750 has this number stamped on the handle, but the board bears the number M8728!) Thanks, Ed -- edward at groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '05 GSX-R1000 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Mar 20 10:55:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:55:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) In-Reply-To: <423CCDA5.8050001@compsys.to> Message-ID: > The key is to always keep > a bit ahead of the problem rather than waiting until > the problems such as NASA has with old tapes that > can no longer be read with tape drives that rarely > work in any case. This is a myth. Every bit of every mission is available on CD-ROM. The original telemetry tapes are crap, but the data was pulled off them many years ago. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 11:01:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:01:11 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:54:06 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... I have several DF32 drives that I expect have seriously worn plating... > > What about RL02s? Are they meant to be left alone once mounted and run > up, or can you treat them like big Zip disks? RL02s are frequently mounted/dismounted, changed, etc. It's somewhat common on a stable system to leave the system pack mounted, but changing data packs is quite ordinary. The heads never rest on the platters, so there's no question of wearing off the oxide. When it _does_ happen, it's a head crash. > I thought the coating was sprayed on? Looking at the edge of an RL02, > there are clear "dribble marks" where it's run down the side of the disk. An RL02 platter is a modern-style oxide-and-binder-coated thin aluminum platter. A DF32 disk is a nearly 1cm-thick hunk of steel with a chrome-like plating. One problem with the DF32 is that repeated spin up/spin-down cycles wear through the plating. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 11:08:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:08:03 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) In-Reply-To: References: <423CCDA5.8050001@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:55:42 -0500 (EST), William Donzelli wrote: > > The key is to always keep > > a bit ahead of the problem rather than waiting until > > the problems such as NASA has with old tapes that > > can no longer be read with tape drives that rarely > > work in any case. > > This is a myth. Every bit of every mission is available on CD-ROM. The > original telemetry tapes are crap, but the data was pulled off them many > years ago. The story I heard about NASA data retrieval issues from someone who was involved with the project to later convert old media to new, had nothing to do with manned missions... the ground-based data that was collected from the rig that bounced a laser off of the tray of bicycle reflectors on the moon, recorded to 7-track tapes. One of my collegues described setting up a PDP-11 with a SCSI controller and supervising a grad student as they ran something on the order of 45,000 lbs of 7-track tape through the machine and onto a drawer of 8mm tapes. I was told the story in 1995... not sure exactly when it was supposed to have taken place, but sometime after 8mm tapes were in common use (we were using Exabyte 8505s at the time, FWIW). -ethan From mcesari at comcast.net Sun Mar 20 11:38:15 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:38:15 -0700 Subject: Difference between M8728 & M8750 In-Reply-To: <423D83B8.2A96766C@groenenberg.net> References: <423D83B8.2A96766C@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <81406a4c461125b2b7be6dea0e32a52a@comcast.net> On Mar 20, 2005, at 7:07 AM, Edward wrote: > Hi All, > > Anybody able to tell me the difference between the M8728 (11/70 MOS > memory board) > and the M8750 (11/750 MOS Memory board) or why DEC decided to assign 2 > numbers > to it (the M8750 has this number stamped on the handle, but the board > bears > the number M8728!) > An M8728 is 64K x 39 bits (256KB + ecc) and works in both 11/750 and 11/70. The M8750 is 256K x 39 bits (1MB + ecc) and works only in the 750. The same PCB was used with minor modifications and higher density DRAMs. DEC didn't always catch and/or care about such details. Mike "minor modifications" (from memory) involves removing the extra power traces required for MK4116's and adding the extra address lines for the 64Kbit chips. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 11:51:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:51:13 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:47:36 +0000, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Try to make adapter to convert from one interface to IDE interface > and use CF card. Smallest is 8MB all the way to 8GB and price is > good on 1GB and below. If one knows well with SD stuff, great! Flash isn't a perfect replacement for rotating magnetic media for any OS that has a swap partition... heavy use will begin to deplete regions of the Flash media. Before anyone says that it will take "X million years..." I want to comment that I've seen it happen myself in heavy use situations... specifically, I rigged up an old Olympus camera as a webcam for my "EarthDial". I used this camera because it was the end of summer at the South Pole and there wasn't time to get get something more suitable before our 8 month winter started. The camera was controllable via RS-232 serial line and gphoto. The one weakness was its 8MB SmartMedia storage. I took several thousand pictures, one every 5 minutes for several weeks. As the weeks wore on, the capacity of the card diminished by about 5%. Also... I happen to have a small stack of 4MB CF cards. I've never seen any with lower capacity than that (in full-sized PCMCIA form-factor, I happen to have 2.5MB cards, and ISTR there were 1MB cards). The low end doesn't matter for a theoretical RL02 replacement... those are 10MB. In the case of the DF32, we've looked at battery-backed SRAM, not CF. The one end-to-end (not platter-only) replacement project uses a 40-pin potted SRAM/battery combo like the clock/SRAMs in a SPARCstation, but much larger. With RAM sizes, etc, it's not absurd to consider SRAM for an RK05 or RL01, but by the time you get to RL02 sizes, board size and component expenses start to climb. > Platters are very hard high quality aluminum alloys... Nice description of modern platters... I knew some of that stuff, but not the details. Certainly relevant to the issue of someday folks like us having to manufacture replacements. Unfortunately, not as relevant to the more immediate requirement to make or re-make DF32 platters, which are not like aluminum/glass platters. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 20 12:02:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:02:11 -0700 Subject: other hobbies In-Reply-To: <423D2A2D.8060901@gjcp.net> References: <0503180739.AA18436@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20050319162845.733c2521.chenmel@earthlink.net> <423C9B6F.4090407@jetnet.ab.ca> <423D2A2D.8060901@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <423DBAA3.5020300@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Surely you could use cheap commodity tape, like VHS video tape? > Obviously this woul only work for machines that use up to 1/2" tape. > Cleap tape DON'T work. Now how long do you expect VHS to last with DVD players $50? > Gordon. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 20 12:08:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:08:19 -0700 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423DBC13.50001@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>The key is to always keep >>a bit ahead of the problem rather than waiting until >>the problems such as NASA has with old tapes that >>can no longer be read with tape drives that rarely >>work in any case. >> >> > >This is a myth. Every bit of every mission is available on CD-ROM. The >original telemetry tapes are crap, but the data was pulled off them many >years ago. > > > I thought the problem was they got the data ... but lost the software to read the encoded data from the tapes ... I think this was mars lander data. Ben alias woodelf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 12:32:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:32:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 20, 5 02:34:29 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:28:45 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Mar 05 07:39:43 GMT > > msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > > > As I have stated many times before, I believe the solution is for us > > > to open our own factories to make them. > > > > I suspect, rather than 'factories', that it would be similar to being a > > 'gunsmith.' There are plenty of artisan machinists who make all sorts > > of complex machinery. > > Hmm... Drivesmith... one problem, of course, is that the tolerances > for hard drives are somewhat tighter than for strictly mechanical > devices such as steam engines and guns. I know people who make both > (steam and guns), but I would seriously hesitate to make any sort of > drive bits newer than, say, an RK05. Agereed. I think that _most_ mechanical parts for classic computers could be made ina good home workshop, with the exception of disk/tape heads, and probably bits for inside HDAs. That still leaves a lot that could be made. I certainly think that any part for, say, an ASR33 could be made at home. It may not least as long as the original, but do you really need to run the machine 24/7? :-) Which, alas, leaves storage devices as the main problem. Apart from heads, I think parts for floppy drives could be made at home. Hard drives are a lot worse. Even things like the spindle for an RK05 would be a serious project (does that one have a ferrofluid seal in it? Some drives certainly do). > > Having said that, someday I know I'll have to face at least one round > of this... I have several DF32 drives that I expect have seriously > worn plating (I've only ever tested the electronics, but I _have_ spun > the platters up and down, 20 years ago, long before I knew it could > cause a problem). Getting a replacement platter fashioned and turned > to suitable smoothness is completely within the realm of accessible > tools for steam engines, etc. It's really no worse than turning a > brake rotor. My only real concern is _plating_ the platter. Setting Sure. I suspect you could skim the surface of the existing platter rather than start from new (I can't believe the thickness is very critical). Of course you would have to replate it. > up an electroplating rig is easy enough (I copper plated a number of > nickels and quarters as a lad ;-) presuming one can a) come up with an > acceptable formula for the coating, and b) gain access to the various I thought it was mostly nickel, but I am not sure. > soluable compounds to mix up a batch of plating solution. Even when Indeed. I know the gold plating is not something to try at home... (the only reasonable method uses gold cyanide..). If you could find out what metal(s) the plating consisted of, you could probably find details of the chemicals to use in some of the old books on workshop methods or electrical engineering that Lindsay have reprinted. I am pretty sure I've got this info somewhere. > that's done, one still has to construct the timing track generator, > but at least that's well documented, so one could build the real deal > from old DEC bits, or one could simulate a formatter with modern > circuitry... the timing pulses are not that bad. > > Vince and I have also kicked around what it would take to build a > modern solid-state replacement for just the rotating media (there's > already a prototype 74LS replacement for the entire 4-drive > assembly)... it's honestly easier to replicate the entire drive > assembly (since that can be done with 100% digital circuits), but the > whole point would be to have a modern replacement _just_ for the > platter and possibly the heads. And it would probably be even eaiser to get the whole machine, storage and all, into a couple of FPGAs, or as a software emulator... I guess I am odd, but I feel that the peripherals are as much a part of classic computing as the CPU. Sure it can be fun to design new peripherals for the classics, to link CF cards to a PDP8 or whatever. It's also good to keep the origianl peripherals running. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 20 12:38:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:38:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: other hobbies In-Reply-To: <423D2A2D.8060901@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Mar 20, 5 07:45:49 am Message-ID: > > woodelf wrote: > > > But back to magnetic tape, don't think you can re-create that with out > > alot of machinery. > > The big problem is often the chemical process on the plasic or > > binder/magnetic stuff > > is trade secrets. > > Surely you could use cheap commodity tape, like VHS video tape? My worry would be that the coercivity is almost certain to be wrong. I can rememeber when fooling around with reel-to-reel video recorders that if you used 'high band' tape on a 'low band' machine you got almost no signal off the tape. I have also been told that 1/2" computer tape makes lousy video tape (by somebody who tried it in an N1500), I suspect the reverse is also true. And anyway, how much longer do you expect to find VHS tapes on sale just anywhere? > Obviously this woul only work for machines that use up to 1/2" tape. As regards slittling the tape, classic camera enthusiasts (another of _my_ hobbies) routinely slit film down to make it fit obscure cameras (e.g. turn 120 into 127). This is in one respect easier than tape (film is thicker and stiffer), in aother respect harder (you have to do it in total darkness). Tyipcally, you make up a jig to hold a couple of razor blades the right distance apart, and run the film over them -- often using a 'junk' camera, like a Box-Brownie (for 120 or 620 input), some 35mm compact (for 35mm input, to make subminature film), etc. Doubtless a similar idea could be made for magnetic tape. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 13:58:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:58:22 -0600 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) Message-ID: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I finally found the info on suggested TU-56 cap repair from the guy who actually did it with these parts. Here is what he had to say: > The capacitors are from www.newark.com part number 89F2059 with bracket > 81F3218 > > These must be replaced in pairs. > > Attached is a JPG of the mounting plate made from a 1/16" thick aluminum > plate. The image should be to scale. The height is 5" and width is 4.3" > > The plate is attached using 0.5" 8-32 standoffs from www.digikey.com part > number 8427K > > You will also need 1/4 and 3/8 8-32 screws. Note that the caps he found & used are slightly different size than the originals, hence a different mounting plate and brackets. Hope this helps everyone! I can put the .jpg file refered to up if people want to see that too. Jay West From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 20 14:08:40 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:08:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan wrote: > Flash isn't a perfect replacement for rotating magnetic media for any > OS that has a swap partition... heavy use will begin to deplete > regions of the Flash media. Before anyone says that it will take "X > million years..." Not millions of years, but more than a few. > I want to comment that I've seen it happen myself in > heavy use situations... specifically, I rigged up an old Olympus > camera as a webcam for my "EarthDial". I used this camera because it > was the end of summer at the South Pole and there wasn't time to get > get something more suitable before our 8 month winter started. The > camera was controllable via RS-232 serial line and gphoto. The one > weakness was its 8MB SmartMedia storage. I took several thousand > pictures, one every 5 minutes for several weeks. As the weeks wore > on, the capacity of the card diminished by about 5%. That's because "SmartMedia" is a horrible misnomer. It really should be called "DumbMedia", because there's no intelligence in the card at all. So it does no wear levelling. CF and SD cards have a built-in intelligent controller that performs wear levelling automatically. Some (or all?) cards also have automatic replacement of bad blocks with spares. They will last much longer than SmartMedia in an environment that rewrites certain blocks frequently, such as swap space. They'll still eventually were out, of course, but it will take quite a while. The exact details of the wear-levelling and bad block replacement are unspecified by the CF and SD standards. Similarly to the SCSI and ATA standards, CF and SD just present a logical array of good blocks, with the geometry details hidden. Different manufacturers may have different algorithms. Sandisk has a white paper describing theirs in general terms. If I were buying a card for a high-wear application, I'd want to buy a well-known reputable brand such as Sandisk or Lexar, rather than the cheapest off-brand card at Frys. Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 14:15:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:15:21 -0600 Subject: Flash longevity References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net><20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <00a701c52d89$8b050a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... >They'll still eventually were out, of course, but > it will take quite a while. ... snip .. > > If I were buying a card for a high-wear application, I'd want to buy a > well-known reputable brand such as Sandisk or Lexar, rather than the > cheapest off-brand card at Frys. Uh... no. Set up a swap partition on a lexar flash drive. You won't get more than a month of use at best. I've done it. Twice. Jay From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Mar 20 14:29:24 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:29:24 -0600 Subject: Flash longevity References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net><20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <00a701c52d89$8b050a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000801c52d8b$853defa0$1a3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jay West" Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 2:15 PM > It was written.... >>They'll still eventually were out, of course, but >> it will take quite a while. > > ... snip .. >> >> If I were buying a card for a high-wear application, I'd want to buy a >> well-known reputable brand such as Sandisk or Lexar, rather than the >> cheapest off-brand card at Frys. > > Uh... no. Set up a swap partition on a lexar flash drive. You won't get > more than a month of use at best. I've done it. Twice. > > Jay Flash drives have a large but limited number of erases. They make great solid state drives but not for swap devices. For a classic system needing a small number of mb of swap space RAM is the best answer. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 14:44:46 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:44:46 -0600 Subject: Flash longevity References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net><20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74><00a701c52d89$8b050a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000801c52d8b$853defa0$1a3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <00b001c52d8d$a711fde0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > Flash drives have a large but limited number of erases. They make great > solid state drives but not for swap devices. For a classic system needing > a small number of mb of swap space RAM is the best answer. Ugggg... sorry. It wasn't a swap partition I created in flash. It was an OS install partition (to install the OS FROM, not to). I was learning the intricacies of "label & newfs" at the time, and had quite a few attempts in a short interval but the lexar drive died. This happened again to a second one in short order. So the "writing" I was doing was formatting and loading, not general use. It didn't hold up well in this application at all. Based on my own experience, I would only use flash for emergency storage, not for something I planned to read a bunch - let alone write. Using it as a daily backup regimin wouldn't be good either. Then again, maybe I just had two bad devices in a row. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 14:46:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:46:11 -0600 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00b901c52d8d$d9b31cc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It would appear they are cheaper than $70 bucks each. I think what had stuck in my brain was I knew they needed to be replaced in pairs, and with one bad one I knew I'd need two - so my brain recalled the total price ($70 for two, not one). Regards, Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 20 15:00:44 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:00:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity In-Reply-To: <00b001c52d8d$a711fde0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net><20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74><00a701c52d89$8b050a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000801c52d8b$853defa0$1a3cd7d1@randylaptop> <00b001c52d8d$a711fde0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <33962.64.169.63.74.1111352444.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > It wasn't a swap partition I created in flash. It was an OS > install partition (to install the OS FROM, not to). I was learning the > intricacies of "label & newfs" at the time, and had quite a few attempts > in a short interval but the lexar drive died. This happened again to a > second one in short order. Strange. I've done a lot of that sort of thing on Sandisk CF and SD cards with no trouble. And I have used a 2GB Sandisk CF as a swap partition on a laptop for more than nine months with no observed ill effects. > Then again, maybe I just had two bad devices in a row. Possible, but seems unlikely. I'm not sure how else to explain it though. Overwriting an entire partition in a CF multiple times to do installations *from* shouldn't cause any significant wear. Eric From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 20 15:39:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:39:01 -0500 Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? Message-ID: <20050320213900.MBIQ11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> H guys, Couple of weeks ago, I was contacted by a guy who said he had seen my site, and has an "Black Apple" (Bell and Howell edition of Apple II for schools) that he would like to sell. Says condition is "unknown", and that the monitor does not work. From correspondance with him, I have determined that he has the main unit, two drives of which one is B&H label (no boxes for the hardware), the dead monitor, no docs, and "lots of software" which is all copies except for one original boxed game. Said I was one of several people he had contacted, and asked for a "bid" - I responded by asking him for a price - he said $150, which I thought was high, and considering that I would have to ship it here (US -> Canada), I said "thanks but no thanks", and asked him to let me know if he lowered his price (because I would like to have a B&H Apple in the collection again)... He's left me on his mailing list, and since than has reported that he had an offer for $500, then $1000, and this morning he says he has an offer for $2000. I corresponded with him again and he says: >ok right now got offer for 2000 from people in uk. have 2 different people >in uk that want it for good money. This seems completely ludicrous to me --- I know B&H Apples are considered desirable by some, but $2000 (and shipping from US->UK)!!! ??? Smells like a scam... (?) Whats a B&H Apple worth these days? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Mar 20 15:51:42 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:51:42 +0100 Subject: MS Word 2.0 GE edition manual Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050320225137.0398ed20@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Anyone interested in a user guide for Microsoft Word 2.0 specially made for GE (General Electric) ? Its basically a normal manual with 848 pages but with a GE cover and the text "GE Business Use Only" on it. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Mar 20 15:51:48 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:51:48 -0600 Subject: Flash longevity References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net><20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><33924.64.169.63.74.1111349320.squirrel@64.169.63.74><00a701c52d89$8b050a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000801c52d8b$853defa0$1a3cd7d1@randylaptop><00b001c52d8d$a711fde0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33962.64.169.63.74.1111352444.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <000e01c52d97$07d79e10$2e92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Eric Smith" Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:00 PM > Jay wrote: >> It wasn't a swap partition I created in flash. It was an OS >> install partition (to install the OS FROM, not to). I was learning the >> intricacies of "label & newfs" at the time, and had quite a few attempts >> in a short interval but the lexar drive died. This happened again to a >> second one in short order. > > Strange. I've done a lot of that sort of thing on Sandisk CF and SD > cards with no trouble. And I have used a 2GB Sandisk CF as a swap > partition on a laptop for more than nine months with no observed ill > effects. > >> Then again, maybe I just had two bad devices in a row. > > Possible, but seems unlikely. I'm not sure how else to explain it > though. Overwriting an entire partition in a CF multiple times to > do installations *from* shouldn't cause any significant wear. > > Eric To my knowledge (which may be wrong) is that the reads are unlimited, it is the erasing that causes problems. Using the drive as a worm device should be perfect for it. CF cards are 5v tolerant devices and may be sensitive to over-voltage, if you are running it at 5v a current limiting resistor might be a good idea. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Mar 20 11:03:14 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:03:14 +0000 Subject: Flash longevity In-Reply-To: <000e01c52d97$07d79e10$2e92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050320215925.LDJP1567.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > > > Eric > > To my knowledge (which may be wrong) is that the reads are unlimited, it is > the erasing that causes problems. > > Using the drive as a worm device should be perfect for it. > > CF cards are 5v tolerant devices and may be sensitive to over-voltage, if > you are running it at 5v a current limiting resistor might be a good idea. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > Yes, I'm aware of the limited number of writes yet it is still useful technology to use on classics as well as new stuff. Flash, is written in blocks. To write anything it has to erase first then write data onto it (like blowing a EPROM). I'd use larger flash capacity and use brand names especially SanDisk. For heavy use. FRAM is very slow to develop. Come on, it is better technology to come along... Cheers, Wizard From m_thompson at ids.net Sun Mar 20 16:01:04 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:01:04 -0500 Subject: Sun 2/120 keyboard and mouse? In-Reply-To: <1111267947.20170.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> <3.0.5.32.20050318090812.00a7a210@mail.ids.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20050320170104.0508c400@mail.ids.net> >Also, the disk isn't perfect. It's thrown up a couple of unrecoverable >ECC errors during the time we've had it running, so there are definitely >one or two bad blocks on the drive. We've got spare SMD drives if needs >be. Maybe SunOS has a bad block scanning / remapping command that can be >used post-install? (Probably not though - it usually seems to be an >install-time thing) The disk program that you are looking for is "format". If you plug on a second SMD drive, and it is one of the models used by Sun, then you can select the appropriate model, select the partition table to use, and format/verify the drive. A 124MB drive takes hours to format and verify. There are two SMD controller boards that will work in your system. The 450 is limited to less than 1024 cylinders, the 451 will work with larger drives. Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From cb at mythtech.net Sun Mar 20 16:11:34 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:11:34 -0500 Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? Message-ID: >He's left me on his mailing list, and since than has reported that he had >an offer for $500, then $1000, and this morning he says he has an offer for >$2000. I corresponded with him again and he says: >>ok right now got offer for 2000 from people in uk. have 2 different people >>in uk that want it for good money. > >This seems completely ludicrous to me --- I know B&H Apples are considered >desirable by some, but $2000 (and shipping from US->UK)!!! There is on on eBay right now, known working, although not with black drives (but with a working Apple II drive, there are two black B&H drives also available for $20 each in another auction). $355 with 15 bids and 20 hours remaining. The pics aren't loading for me, but the description says it is near mint condition. I could see it getting up to $500 before it closes, but $2000... I'd be surprised. The $150 price he asked was probably a good price (I'd have likely taken him up on that price). But whether he really has $2000 offers vs he is just claiming that to make you feel bad for passing on $150 deal (and possibly hoping you are an ignorant collector who will suddenly think the thing is worth thousands and offer him $2500 for it). But who knows, there has been some insane prices on things recently. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Sun Mar 20 16:15:02 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:15:02 -0500 Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? Message-ID: >$355 with 15 bids and 20 >hours remaining. The pics aren't loading for me, but the description says >it is near mint condition. I could see it getting up to $500 before it >closes, but $2000... I'd be surprised. Oh yeah, and one sold last week on ebay (no drives, not tested) for $182... so IF the guy really has an untested unit he is able to sell for $2000... he is one lucky SOB. -chris From vrs at msn.com Sun Mar 20 16:22:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:22:41 -0800 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > I finally found the info on suggested TU-56 cap repair from the guy who > actually did it with these parts. Here is what he had to say: > > > The capacitors are from www.newark.com part number 89F2059 with bracket > > 81F3218 > > > > These must be replaced in pairs. Thanks! The capacitors seem to be basically the same as the ones currently on eBay (auction 7500675454 or 7501263567) for about $10. It is interesting to see a part number for the mounting clamp (though $1.80 each seems a little steep). > > Attached is a JPG of the mounting plate made from a 1/16" thick aluminum > > plate. The image should be to scale. The height is 5" and width is 4.3" > > > > The plate is attached using 0.5" 8-32 standoffs from www.digikey.com part > > number 8427K > > > > You will also need 1/4 and 3/8 8-32 screws. I assume we screw the plate into place in the TU56 using the standoffs, and it has holes in it for the capacitor clamp? Or does it bolt directly the TU56, with the clamp on standoffs? Seems like the Ebay caps, the mounting plate, and the clamps would make for a pretty affordable solution. Newark has a $25 minimum order (to escape the $5 penalty). If desired, I could order enough of the clamps to meet the minimum order, then ship them to people who want them. Or someone could try to find them at Home Depot or somewhere . (A 2.5" inside diameter circular clamp shouldn't be impossible to find.) (I think I will order a few capacitors and experiment with mounting hardware.) Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Mar 20 16:24:29 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:24:29 -0500 Subject: Catweasel (MK3) floppy controller question.. Message-ID: <200503201724.29496.pat@computer-refuge.org> I figure this might be a decent place to ask.. Does anyone know of a program I can use (preferably under Linux, but DOS would probably work as well) to read a flux-transition level image off a disk using a catweasel card? I'm trying to read some 2.4MB (5.25") floppies from an IBM 3174 controller (using an 2.4MB floppy drive), and am able to read in 1.2MB floppies using cw2dmk just fine, but it doesn't do so well at processing the (aparently) mixed-density floppy I've been screwing with since yesterday. Using the "testhist" program included with cw2dmk, I can get information about the "unreadable" tracks, but cw2dmk won't process them. I'm trying to make a backup image of a disk so that I'm not screwed when the disk stops being readable... For those interested, it appears that "2.4MB" floppy drives are 96 TPI just like 5.25" DS/HD drives, but they support a higher bit rate. Here's what testhist tells me for a "normal" HD track: mii-300:/usr/src/cw2dmk-3.4# ./testhist 0 0 0 1 2 Reading track 0, side 1... 0: 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 8: 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000003 000001 16: 000008 000005 000002 000005 000012 000006 000010 000479 24: 003590 012073 083091 150788 000112 000013 000004 000004 peak 0: mean 26.52101, sd 0.67534 peak 1: mean 41.56100, sd 1.04145 peak 2: mean 55.25931, sd 0.90741 drive speed approx 360.943152 RPM MFM data clock approx 510.486128 kHz And for a higher density "2.4MB" track: mii-300:/usr/src/cw2dmk-3.4# ./testhist 0 0 1 1 2 Reading track 1, side 1... 0: 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 8: 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000000 000324 000605 16: 000579 000472 006881 107754 120911 001047 000736 000639 24: 000743 000819 000079 000019 000003 000005 000000 000006 peak 0: mean 19.51057, sd 0.82054 peak 1: mean 33.65562, sd 1.27275 peak 2: mean 48.29739, sd 0.48487 drive speed approx 374.227723 RPM MFM data clock approx 653.668108 kHz I don't care so much about being able to interpret the data that's there as much as just being able to make a duplicate of the disk which is acceptable to the 3174 controller when this disk bites the dust. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 20 16:31:29 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:31:29 GMT Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? In-Reply-To: Dave Dunfield "$2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ?" (Mar 20, 16:39) References: <20050320213900.MBIQ11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <10503202231.ZM25304@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 20 2005, 16:39, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Couple of weeks ago, I was contacted by a guy who said he had seen my site, > and has an "Black Apple" (Bell and Howell edition of Apple II for schools) > I responded by asking him for a price - he said $150 > He's left me on his mailing list, and since than has reported that he had > an offer for $500, then $1000, and this morning he says he has an offer for > $2000. I corresponded with him again and he says: > >ok right now got offer for 2000 from people in uk. have 2 different people > >in uk that want it for good money. There's one on eBay right now, in good condition, with working drives, at $355 Canadian with 19 hours to go. I've seen them go a little higher. I can't imagine why anyone would pay very much more than that, and I suspect he's not had any offer near $2000. If he had, and you'd already told him you weren't interested at $150, why would he bother to contact you again? Anyway, don't forget you'd pay VAT and possibly import duty if you bought one from the States. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Mar 20 17:23:16 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:23:16 -0500 Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? Message-ID: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Oh yeah, and one sold last week on ebay (no drives, not tested) for >$182... so IF the guy really has an untested unit he is able to sell for >$2000... he is one lucky SOB. I'll let ya know if he says the sale actually went through (I asked him to keep me posted). I corresponded with the guy a few times back and forth when he first contacted me, to help him figure out what he had... My "gut feel" is that he's not trying to scam, but he may be getting scammed - I sent him to one of the fraud sites to read up on scams involving buyers offering unrealistic prices. I personally take Ebay prices with a big grain of salt --- In looking for the Black Apple you mentioned, I noticed a "@@LOOK@@ ***RARE*** Original Macintosh 128" up to $250 ... (I bought a near-mint Mac (128) with a nice carry bag, external floppy drive and other goodies for $19 (Cdn) at a local goodwill shop a couple of months back). And I do have to add shipping ($50+ on something this big) plus taxes, duty, brokerage and currency conversion to anything I purchase from the states, so I felt $150 (base) and the aggrevation of getting it here was not worth it to me. But, I agree that someone who REALLY wanted it and/or didn't know better might pay a few hundred ... (especially if they are an Ebay type). It wasn't until it went over $500 and then $1000 that I really started to think that he might be getting scammed. Anyone have advice to pass on to him - anyone used agents/services to perform an overseas transaction more safely etc.? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 20 17:40:05 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:40:05 -0600 Subject: Low-Level PC Formatting Using Debug Commands In-Reply-To: <423D0950.80BB0C92@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050320153947.00c16d28@localhost> This works if the card has a formatter in ROM located at that address. Many Western Digital cards did. To check if it's likely to work, examine the code at that address and see if it looks like a jmp or not. If it's all text or nothing that looks like valid code, attempting to execute it might send your machine into oblivion until the next hard reset. I've also encountered some Adaptec cards with a different scheme: C800:0CCC. If you have a Western digital controller that is smart enough to coexist with another WD controller, it should install its ROM at a secondary address; the formatter would then likely be at CA00:5 I have a tech note from the Kaypro 2000 Base Unit that also specifies the C800:5 address for the formatter. I believe they used a WD controller. There is also a note that reads "If the fixed disk controller board has a ROM of its own, there should be no jumper in J11 on the Kaypro 2000 base unit mainboard." I take this to mean that some versions of the HD controller didn't have ROMs. I have the original WD docs that came with some of the Western digital controllers back in the day when user's guides actually had some real information in them. On-board BIOS Formatters, XT and AT hard disk and Hard / Floppy disk controller cards: (in DEBUG) WD1002-WAH, WD1003-WAH, and -WA2 versions, 16-bit, MFM, see note 1, but no apparent onboard formatter WD1002A-WX1, MFM, for the IBM XT (or AT with "superBIOS" ROMS), drive number in AH, interleave in AL, g=C800:5 WD1002S-WX2A, MFM, for the IBM XT (or AT with "superBIOS" ROMS), drive number in AH, interleave in AL, g=C800:5 WD1002-27X, RLL, 8-bit, but F000 feature has no ROM, others use g-C800:5 to format WD1002A-27X, RLL, 8-bit, similar to above but with SuperBIOS (allows dynamic entry for drive parms etc) WD1002-FOX, Floppy/Floppytape controller, no ROM WD1003V-MM1 and -MM2: 16-bit MFM, No ROM WD1003V-SR1, -SR2, RLL, 16-bit, see note 2 WD1004-27X, WD1004A-27x, RLL controller for 8-bit slots, SuperBIOS II formatter at C800:5 WD1005-WAH, ESDI, 16-bit, apparently no onboard formatter WD1006V-SR1 and SR2: RLL, for 16-bit (AT), g=CC00:5 (not C800:5) but see note 2 WD1006V-MM1 and MM2: MFM, for 16-bit (AT), ???? May have no formatter? WD1006-WAH, MFM, 16-bit, supports 1:1 interleave, no on-board ROM or formatter; use WDFMT.EXE or OnTrack WD1006S-WAH similar to WD1006-WAH WD1007A-WA2 and WAH, ESDI drives, 16-bit, g=C800:5 but see note 1 WD1007A-WA4: ESDI, 16-bit, 1 serial port, 1 parallel, fdc controller, notes 1 & 2 WDXT-GENx, docs unreadable, may be the same as CMS HCWDXTGEN instructions Adaptec ACB-1072, RLL, rumored to have a formatter, address=? Adaptec ACB-1070A, RLL, rumored to have a formatter, address=? (full length card) Adaptec 2002A, MFM, Note weird address: g=C800:0CCC CMS HCWDXTGEN, MFM, 8-bit, note 1 (W21 & W22), g=C800:5 Data Technology DTC-5280CRA, MFM, 16-bit, FDC, no formatter Data Technology DTC-5187-1 or 5187-AT, 16-bit, RLL, g=C800:5, but note 1 (W3) and note 2 (W2) National Computer LTD NDC-5427, MFM, JP1 1-2 if 0-8 heads, 2-3 if 9-16 heads, I have some other jumper settings Omti 5520A/5520B, MFM, 8-bit, jumper configured, W7 out (BIOS enabled) W9 out (BIOS at C800) g=C800:6 Omti 5527A/5527B, RLL, 8-bit, jumper configured, W7 out (BIOS enabled) W9 out (BIOS at C800) g=C800:6 Seagate ST11M, 8-bit, MFM, note 1 (W1), g=C800:5, note 3 Seagate ST11R, 8-bit, RLL, note 1 (W1), g=C800:5, note 3 Xebec ??? MFM I have jumpers for drive size Note 1: BIOS ROM address depends on jumper settings, W1, W2, W3 on WD1007A (2-3, 2-3, and ON by default). Others use different jumpers. Note 2: BIOS ROM can be disabled: E.g. If jumper J2 is installed on WD1006V-SRx, (W2 on WD1003V) no on-board formatter or other features. Others use different jumpers. Note 3: Be prepared to enter the drive's defect map At 09:25 PM 3/19/2005 -0800, you wrote: >I just ran across this and thought it might be of interest for anyone >doing a low level format on a PC (not AT) type controllers. It was taken >from a February 13, 1989 issue of Tech Times that appears to be a >ComputerLand Confidential publication (this is a copy.) My usual >procedure was to unassemble C800:5 or C800:6 and G=????:? the address >that was a jmp instruction. I've never used the :800 or tried to format >a Xebec controller. > >******************* > >Company Debug Command >Adaptec -G=C800:CCC >DTC -G=C800:5 >Omti -G=C800:6 >Western Digital -G=C800:5 or > -G=c800:800 >Xebec Series of commands > -l322 > -l321 > -o322 0 > -l321 > -o320 04 > -0320 00 > -o320 00 > -0320 00 > -0320 05 > -0320 07 (use 17 if embedded servo dr) >At this point, the LED on the drive should come on to indicate that the >drive is formatting. When the light goes off, coninue: > -l321 > -l320 >The last entry should get 00 status back, indicating a successful >format. [Sex] The only people who make love all the time are liars. --Telly Savalas (b. 1924) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 18:06:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:06:48 -0600 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <010101c52da9$e071e250$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> vrs wrote... > Thanks! The capacitors seem to be basically the same as the ones > currently > on eBay (auction 7500675454 or 7501263567) for about $10. ...snip... > Seems like the Ebay caps, the mounting plate, and the clamps would make > for > a pretty affordable solution. Note that the caps in my TU56 are electrolytic. They are not oil filled. The two on ebay you mentioned are oil filled. I have no idea if that makes a difference or not. Jay From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 20 12:11:59 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:11:59 +0100 Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:10:31 +0100, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> Isn't there a front-back platten adjustment affects print density >>> (particularly if the platten is too far back). > > The platen adjustment for horizontal (located on the right side of the > platen when looking from the front of the machine) is already at its > foremost location. > I'm not familiar with the ASR-33, but from the Siemens 32e I remember that the hard-rubber roller platen got too hard with age. That caused poor print quality. -- -bv From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Mar 20 18:20:47 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:20:47 -0500 Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... Message-ID: Well, unexpected by me anyway. I've built a data sep circuit from that schematic I asked for advice on earlier. Works like a champ. I tied the circuit into a piece of ribbon cable so that I could pretty much attach any drive I wanted to try with it plus still be able to keep my OSI more-or-less unmodified and use the original drive. The drives I am using are a pair of Toshiba FDD 5451s. After testing each drive individually, I attached another IDC card edge connector to my setup and tried again. Nothing worked! Not only did it not work, it trashed the diskette I was testing with. Went back to one at a time and everything worked again. After a good bit of trying to figure out what was wrong, I discovered that the +5 volt pin in the power connector I was using for the #2 (B) drive had pushed out of the nylon plug so that the drive was unpowered. Having either of the drives unpowered on the cable caused the other drive to screw up. The two drives cooperate just fine when both have power. I don't remember ever seeing this kind of problem before... I seem to remember having unpowered drives hanging off of cables with no ill effects. I guess that some of the signals (write gate for instance) must be getting pulled low by the unpowered unit. Is this normal floppy behavior and I'm just remembering wrong? Thanks, Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 18:20:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:20:54 -0500 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) In-Reply-To: <010101c52da9$e071e250$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <010101c52da9$e071e250$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:06:48 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Note that the caps in my TU56 are electrolytic. They are not oil filled. The > two on ebay you mentioned are oil filled. > > I have no idea if that makes a difference or not. Probably not as long as the oil stays on the inside... :-) -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 20 18:26:52 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:26:52 -0600 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <011a01c52dac$ae0fc0e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> vrs wrote... > I assume we screw the plate into place in the TU56 using the standoffs, > and > it has holes in it for the capacitor clamp? Or does it bolt directly the > TU56, with the clamp on standoffs? the plate jpg is located at www.ezwind.net/jwest Jay From vrs at msn.com Sun Mar 20 18:56:50 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:56:50 -0800 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) References: <009001c52d87$2bdf3350$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <011a01c52dac$ae0fc0e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > vrs wrote... > > I assume we screw the plate into place in the TU56 using the standoffs, > > and > > it has holes in it for the capacitor clamp? Or does it bolt directly the > > TU56, with the clamp on standoffs? > > the plate jpg is located at www.ezwind.net/jwest Interesting. Seems like there should be more holes (assuming the one plate is for both caps). What's the resolution on that picture? 300dpi? (Maybe if I could print it to scale it would help me visualize how it is used.) Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 20 19:39:28 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:39:28 -0800 Subject: [OT] Neo Geo cabinet problem Message-ID: I've got a 4 slot Neo Geo cabinet that is starting to act flaky. It's always had problems if I put to many new games (I'm guessing the higher bit games take more power), and now I've seen the video freak out a couple times in the last week. The first time it looked like it was rolling (I rushed over and turned it off so am not totally sure. This last time I was playing a game and it shifted left and jaggy, but then when I finished the game it popped back to normal, and seems to have stayed that way for a while. Anyone have any ideas? I'm suspecting it's either the powersupply, or possibly the 4-slot motherboard. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 20 20:44:40 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:44:40 -0500 Subject: Star Trek update In-Reply-To: <10503192057.ZM22542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10503192057.ZM22542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <423E3518.8030106@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: >If anyone's interested, I've recently updated my Star Trek page >somewhat. More BASIC versions, a little more blurb, and Java and >Z-code versions at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ > >As always, corrections, additions, and comments are welcome. > >Anyone got a FORTH or APL version? > Jerome Fine replies: If you check the following address, you will find a number of references to very old Star Trek versions. While Tom Almy has replied that he did not keep the original FORTRAN versions which he worked with back in the 1970s (unfortunately very few people realized at the time how important it was to archive older software), at least I saved and archived one of the original RT-11 SST.SAV and SST.DOC files which it seems that Tom Almy may have produced using V03B of RT-11. http://www.almy.us/sst.html These two files are presently hosted at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/rt11/games/ Note that the original date which I found on my copy of an 8" floppy was December 18th, 1978. Note also that on Tom's site there is a link to the files SST.EXE and SST.DOC (sstdos.zip) which can be played in a DOS box. As far as I can remember, SST.EXE and SST.SAV (December 18th, 1978 from RT-11) seem to play exactly the same. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 20 21:15:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:15:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050320191351.K8471@localhost> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, David V. Corbin wrote: > to print a decent imprint. New Ribbons, Clean Type Cylinder, Good Impact > Pad. > still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the > page... R U sure that the print hammer is any good? Unless you've replaced it, they turn to crap. Self-adhesive "bump-on" 'rubber' feet (really plastic) seem to be the thing that works. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 23:49:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:49:23 -0500 Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> References: <20050310202034.H942@localhost> <200503181616.j2IGGm42009566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <423AFE01.7D4A86C@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:49 -0500, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Hi people; > > I found a couple of damaged/parts-scavenged qbus boards which > I was able to identify as vt278 (decmate) cpu boards... > > Can one connect a terminal to the printer port with > some special cable, supply power to the board and > have the thing come back alive and talk to the terminal? > > (the diagrams are at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/, > file MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf) Carlos, >From looking at the prints, I can see where the video chip pumps out H sync, V sync, and video to the edge fingers... the board also needs +5, +12 and -12 (for the DRAMs, among other uses). It's been years since I tore apart a VT100 (was turning two dead ones into one live one), but there's nothing magical about them... the video board schematic is in the VT278 drawings. If you didn't want to muck around inside a real VT100, you'd need a mono video monitor that can handle the sync rates for 80 col and 132 col, whatever they happen to be (never poked at the video signals with an o-scope, so can't even hazard a guess). If you decide that it would be too much trouble to get that 'naked' VT278 board working, feel free to let me know... I wouldn't mind a spare for my DECmate I. -ethan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 21 00:09:07 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 06:09:07 GMT Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: "Bill Sudbrink" "Unexpected floppy behavior..." (Mar 20, 19:20) References: Message-ID: <10503210609.ZM26044@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 20 2005, 19:20, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > After a good bit of > trying to figure out what was wrong, I discovered that the > +5 volt pin in the power connector I was using for the #2 (B) > drive had pushed out of the nylon plug so that the drive was > unpowered. Having either of the drives unpowered on the cable > caused the other drive to screw up. The two drives cooperate > just fine when both have power. I don't remember ever seeing > this kind of problem before... I seem to remember having unpowered > drives hanging off of cables with no ill effects. I guess that > some of the signals (write gate for instance) must be getting > pulled low by the unpowered unit. Is this normal floppy > behavior and I'm just remembering wrong? Usually that's OK. Is perhaps the one without power also the one with the terminators, or do neither have terminators? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon Mar 21 05:29:46 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:29:46 -0000 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: Message-ID: <004d01c52e09$83337c60$0200a8c0@geoff> http://www.vintage-radio.com/projects/capacitor-reformer.shtml Above is link to a circuit for a capacitor reformer with details for use in the states on 110v. Geoff. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Mar 21 06:21:05 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:21:05 -0500 Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: <10503210609.ZM26044@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Mar 20 2005, 19:20, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > After a good bit of > > trying to figure out what was wrong, I discovered that the > > +5 volt pin in the power connector I was using for the #2 (B) > > drive had pushed out of the nylon plug so that the drive was > > unpowered. Having either of the drives unpowered on the cable > > caused the other drive to screw up. The two drives cooperate > > just fine when both have power. I don't remember ever seeing > > this kind of problem before... I seem to remember having unpowered > > drives hanging off of cables with no ill effects. I guess that > > some of the signals (write gate for instance) must be getting > > pulled low by the unpowered unit. Is this normal floppy > > behavior and I'm just remembering wrong? > > Usually that's OK. Is perhaps the one without power also the one with > the terminators, or do neither have terminators? > Ah, yes, in each of my tests, the unpowered drive was set for DS2 (drive B) and TM (termination) and was at the end of the cable. But, I thought that the termination was to ground? From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 06:27:55 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:27:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... Message-ID: <20697603.1111408075601.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> termination is 150 ohms (for 5.25" floppy drives) to +5vdc... one of the reasons that one drive only can be terminated otherwise the output drives can't handle the current and if there is no termination then there is not a valid logic high level. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink Ah, yes, in each of my tests, the unpowered drive was set for DS2 (drive B) and TM (termination) and was at the end of the cable. But, I thought that the termination was to ground? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Mar 21 07:38:34 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:38:34 -0500 Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: <20697603.1111408075601.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Steve Thatcher wrote: > From: Bill Sudbrink > > > Ah, yes, in each of my tests, the unpowered drive was set for > > DS2 (drive B) and TM (termination) and was at the end of the > > cable. But, I thought that the termination was to ground? > > termination is 150 ohms (for 5.25" floppy drives) to +5vdc... one > of the reasons that one drive only can be terminated otherwise > the output drives can't handle the current and if there is no > termination then there is not a valid logic high level. > That "splains" it then. Thanks! Bill From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 07:53:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:53:03 -0500 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20050321085303.14611eac.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:51:13 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:47:36 +0000, jpero at sympatico.ca > wrote: > > Try to make adapter to convert from one interface to IDE interface > > and use CF card. Smallest is 8MB all the way to 8GB and price is > > good on 1GB and below. If one knows well with SD stuff, great! > > Flash isn't a perfect replacement for rotating magnetic media for any > OS that has a swap partition... Well, depending on the age of the hardware, it might be best to just replace the 'swap' partition/area of the hard drive being emulated with modern, cheap DRAM memory. The swap area doesn't have to be non-volatile, after all. This depends, of course, on it being possible to specify where swap is located, and not to just blindly use a flash drive as a plug-in HD replacement. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 08:12:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:12:16 -0500 Subject: Low-Level PC Formatting Using Debug Commands In-Reply-To: <423D0950.80BB0C92@rain.org> References: <423D0950.80BB0C92@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050321091216.6564a210.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:25:36 -0800 Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just ran across this and thought it might be of interest for anyone > doing a low level format on a PC (not AT) type controllers. It was > taken from a February 13, 1989 issue of Tech Times that appears to be > a ComputerLand Confidential publication (this is a copy.) My usual > procedure was to unassemble C800:5 or C800:6 and G=????:? the address > that was a jmp instruction. I've never used the :800 or tried to > format a Xebec controller. > > ******************* > > Company Debug Command > Adaptec -G=C800:CCC > DTC -G=C800:5 > Omti -G=C800:6 > Western Digital -G=C800:5 or > -G=c800:800 > Xebec Series of commands > -l322 > -l321 > -o322 0 > -l321 > -o320 04 > -0320 00 > -o320 00 > -0320 00 > -0320 05 > -0320 07 (use 17 if embedded servo dr) > At this point, the LED on the drive should come on to indicate that > the drive is formatting. When the light goes off, coninue: > -l321 > -l320 > The last entry should get 00 status back, indicating a successful > format. I remember that old Xebec routine. It was always a little nerve-wracking as you got no feedback until deep into the procedure. I have a file folder full of old hard drive/controller lore that one day I should scan and make available. If I am remembering correctly, the Xebec controller was the one originally used in the IBM-XT machines. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Mar 21 05:08:26 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:08:26 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Low-Level PC Formatting Using Debug Commands In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050320153947.00c16d28@localhost> References: <423D0950.80BB0C92@rain.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20050320153947.00c16d28@localhost> Message-ID: <45639.195.212.29.83.1111403306.squirrel@195.212.29.83> >>ComputerLand Confidential publication (this is a copy.) My usual >>procedure was to unassemble C800:5 or C800:6 and G=????:? the address >>that was a jmp instruction. I've never used the :800 or tried to format >>a Xebec controller. >>Xebec Series of commands >> -l322 [snip] I've done this on an original IBM XT with the 20M MFM drive. It works. Gordon From william.layer at comcast.net Mon Mar 21 09:50:13 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:50:13 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:23:16 -0500 Dave Dunfield wrote: > I personally take Ebay prices with a big grain of salt --- In looking for the > Black Apple you mentioned, I noticed a "@@LOOK@@ ***RARE*** Original Macintosh > 128" up to $250 ... (I bought a near-mint Mac (128) with a nice carry bag, > external floppy drive and other goodies for $19 (Cdn) at a local goodwill shop > a couple of months back). Just a few random comments: - 'Rare' Mac128.. The original 128K Mac is the unit that put Macintosh on the map, and tho I haven't got production numbers handy, it's clear that a goodly number of these were made. That said, it is the *first* one, and from a collecting standpoint, is a good piece to have. - What's rarer, is to find a 128 that is un-tampered. Vast portions of the 128s eventually got a 512 or 512e motherboard (FatMac) - others just got the 512/512e PROMs which enabled them to work with additional software, and to boot directly from the Mac Serial Hard Disk, which is itself much rarer than the 128. So, I'd tend to think that an untampered 128, with no scars from ham-fisted 'cracking' and a serial hard drive is fairly 'rare'. Devils in the details, as usual. - About 'Mac Crackers'; there is some confusion here. Some outlets sell a long Torx driver as a 'Mac Cracker', and while you do need this tool to open the case, this is not a Mac cracker. The real 'Cracker' is a little tool not unlike a sping-loaded woodworking clamp which is used to seperate the case halves without leaving ugly scars from prying. I've always used a wood clamp. - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. - My favorite eBay canard re: Macs is the "I opened it up to have a look, and it's SIGNED on the back cover!!!!". Of course, they are all signed up until the Classic era (I think the sigs went away with the new case, but I could be wrong). Like I said, random. -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 10:03:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:03:56 +0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 09:50 -0600, William Layer wrote: > - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, ignorance, > greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't that much more > 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the pricing, Goodwill > and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the cheap. We've all had > impossibly lucky finds at these places.. Except that such stores don't really exist over this side of the pond any more - they've all been forbidden from selling electrical goods by the health & safety morons (as in "Oh my God, it plugs into the wall - that's *dangerous* and someone might sue us"). Actually, given that our current stupid compensation culture seems to have jumped the pond from the US, I'm quite surprised such places exist over there too. I'm not sure where old computers go to die over here any more. I suppose a lot of them find homes with the recyclers, who put them on ebay in the hope of making 10x the actual value, or just crush them for the gold value. Grumble. cheers Jules From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Mar 21 10:16:48 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:16:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flash longevity Message-ID: <20050321161648.8D4F03BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "Jay West" wrote: > Ugggg... sorry. It wasn't a swap partition I created in flash. It was an OS > install partition (to install the OS FROM, not to). [...] This is very weird, although some automated installations perform a defect scan on the "target drive" and this will destroy the Flash. I tend to install the OS on a RAM disk and then dd the image to the Flash. If your system has vnconfig(8) you can create the RAM disk very easily, although you can get the same effect using VMWAre. **vp From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 10:30:35 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:30:35 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:03:56 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 09:50 -0600, William Layer wrote: > > 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the pricing, Goodwill > > and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the cheap. We've all had > > impossibly lucky finds at these places.. > any more - they've all been forbidden from selling electrical goods by > the health & safety morons (as in "Oh my God, it plugs into the wall - > that's *dangerous* and someone might sue us"). Goodwill has a mission to sell refurbished and gently used goods at whatever price the market will bear, in order to finance jobs and rehabilitation for economically, physically, mentally, or otherwise disadvantaged individuals. As part of that process, it is their duty to try and eliminate all risks inherent in the resale of donated goods (in this case, classic or neo-classic computers). In that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to reliably destroy all possibly sensitive data and to eliminate all potentially hazardous parts; therefore many Goodwills are simply refusing computer donations at this point. It should also be noted that many individuals regard Goodwill as a dumping ground for broken trash. While it is true that one man's trash can sometimes be another man's treasure, for the most part every man's trash is just that. For all these reasons and more, Goodwills across the world are having an increasingly hard time dealing with outmoded technology, and some must needs simply wash their hands of the whole mess. David H. Barr Sys / Net Admin. Oklahoma Goodwill Industries, Inc. PS: Not offended or preaching; just advocating an alternate viewpoint. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Mar 21 10:38:14 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:38:14 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: <4ef38dd4eec1e9.4eec1e94ef38dd@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- David H. Barr wrote: >>>outmoded technology, and some must needs simply wash their hands of >>> the whole mess. Alas, you are correct. But things can be a little better if.... a) Collectors such as those on this list make themselves known to organizations such as TheGoodwill b) "Managers" at the various facilities at least let people know of the existance of others who would / might have an interest in the items Not always possible...but always worth a try. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 21 11:19:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:19:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller Message-ID: I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical descriptions of the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that describes it. I wonder why this is? Does anyone have any good suggestions for reference material on this subject? I've got Beneath Apple DOS, which is of course excellent, and the Bag of Tricks manual (which rehashes a lot of what's in BAD), but nothing outside of those really describes the disk controller circuitry at an even lower level. I want to know what's going on in the PROMs, and why the certain rules of encoding data are why they are (i.e. first bit of every disk byte must be set, no more than one set of consecutive zeros in any byte, etc.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 21 11:20:02 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:20:02 -0700 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050321085303.14611eac.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20050321085303.14611eac.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <423F0242.6010407@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >Well, depending on the age of the hardware, it might be best to just >replace the 'swap' partition/area of the hard drive being emulated with >modern, cheap DRAM memory. The swap area doesn't have to be >non-volatile, after all. > > > Why not just get more ram and forget swap space. :) I think swap space needs to be non volitile on the system, the PDP/8 comes to mind where you have to swap memory around. Also some operations may need to be continued after a power falure rather than restarted like calculating PI to xxx decimal places. >This depends, of course, on it being possible to specify where swap is >located, and not to just blindly use a flash drive as a plug-in HD >replacement. > > > Ben alias woodelf From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Mar 21 11:25:20 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:25:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for PERQ Message-ID: <20050321172520.55095.qmail@web90109.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Hi, I used a PERQ 1 some time ago, and it would be great to get one of these old machines up and running again. Does anyone have one of these for sale/trade/etc? I'm based in CA but can also collect from the UK (I visit quite frequently). Cheers Ian. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 11:28:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:28:12 +0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4ef38dd4eec1e9.4eec1e94ef38dd@optonline.net> References: <4ef38dd4eec1e9.4eec1e94ef38dd@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1111426092.22456.41.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 11:38 -0500, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > David H. Barr wrote: > > > > >>>outmoded technology, and some must needs simply wash their hands of > >>> the whole mess. > > Alas, you are correct. But things can be a little better if.... > > a) Collectors such as those on this list make themselves known to organizations such as TheGoodwill I've tried that one here and it just doesn't work unfortunately. The people in the individual stores are willing enough - plus they often understand that items might be historically significant, rare etc. Problem is that they still have to play by the rules of the organisation that they work for, which is worried about being sued if someone electrocutes themselves on something sold by their organisation (sadly, "sold as seen" doesn't seem to carry any weight in this country any more). Hence all they can do is recommend that people take electrical items to the local tip, or try and sell them privately through the local paper (which luckily *is* still legal here :-) There is still one goodwill-type place in the nearby city that can accept electrical goods apparently; I assume they send them all off for PAT testing and then apply an appropriate markup to them before selling them. Unfortunately going to that particular store is too much of a detour for me to justify, and it's rare I'll need to head into the city for anything else. So my experience has been that the individuals running the stores are willing and everything, but simply unable to bend the rules set out by those up top somewhere (who in turn are probably following some rules set by the Government - or even further afield within the EU). It's a shame if it means historically interesting / important items get junked (whether they happen to be computers or not!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 11:38:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:38:11 +0000 Subject: Tek XD88 images and stuff Message-ID: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> I threw together some *really* quick pages about my Tek XD88 at: http://www.patooie.com/comps/tek/index.html I *think* it's all legal HTML and all the links work. No guarantee about typos though, it was late when I wrote most of the text :-) Off-list comments about any rendering issues are welcome (particularly Firefox / IE users), as I've only got Opera here to test with. I suspect I'll maybe need to incorporate stylesheet stuff so that fonts will render reasonably consistently across platforms / browsers. Coincidentally, I found a pile of "What's new in Computing" magazines at the weekend from the late 80's / early 90's - I've found a few little snippets about the XD88 line there which I'll have to scan in and incorporate. cheers J. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 21 11:47:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:47:28 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> William Layer wrote: > - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am clearly looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my local area? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Mar 21 11:50:42 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:50:42 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: <20050321175041.EJYW16092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Just a few random comments: > > - 'Rare' Mac128.. Twas not my intention to bring about a argument on the value of Macs - I simply happned upon one while looking for the B&H AppleII and used it as an example - I can site many examples of Ebay items which have gone fairly well over what I consider to be a reasonable value for the item. > - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, ignorance, >greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't that much more >'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the pricing, Goodwill >and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the cheap. We've all had >impossibly lucky finds at these places.. With anything as old and varied as the items we collect, price/value is really in the eye of the beholder, and can vary all over the map. I happened to mention Goodwill because it was the last place I picked up a Mac 128 (and it was a true 128) - Saw three of them go in a local newsgroup last year for under $20 each, and could have used that example ... Also seen them go for much higher on Ebay ... Very rarely do I see an item sell in local market for higher than Ebay, but very often the other way around - I still assert that Ebay prices should be viewed either with skepticism, or at least as a marker for the high end of the scale. The sad truth is that much of the material that we value and collect is considered worthless by the majority of people - many of the items in my collection were donations, including some that I would place a decent $$$ value on - Ebay manages to reach enough people that somebody somewhere wants it, and by virtue of the way it works, it sells at the highest price that they are willing to pay (or at least just above the highest price that the next bidder would have paid) - that doesn't mean that these prices are indicitave of a reasonable average value for an item. By the same token, Goodwill represents the lowest end of the scale (after all, someone GAVE it to them) - the true average value for an item will probably lie somewhere in between Goodwill and Ebay. > - My favorite eBay canard re: Macs is the "I opened it up to have a look, and >it's SIGNED on the back cover!!!!". Of course, they are all signed up until the >Classic era (I think the sigs went away with the new case, but I could be wrong). IIRC, the sigs were in the Original, Fat and the Plus, which are all essentially the same plastics (with vents on top) - with the SE and forced air cooling, the plastics changed and the sigs were dropped - Classics are the third style of small mac plastics (also without sigs). Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Mon Mar 21 11:49:58 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:49:58 -0000 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c52e3e$66be3a40$0000fea9@retrobbs.org> I've got the DOS Manual, and I used to have Beneath Apple DOS... If you want more detail than that, you might have to email Woz... I mean, he designed the whole thing... He may be the only one who knows... And, being Woz, he might even answer you. Ah, a *real* OS... I'm getting verklempt... Mark -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: 21 March 2005 17:19 To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical descriptions of the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that describes it. I wonder why this is? Does anyone have any good suggestions for reference material on this subject? I've got Beneath Apple DOS, which is of course excellent, and the Bag of Tricks manual (which rehashes a lot of what's in BAD), but nothing outside of those really describes the disk controller circuitry at an even lower level. I want to know what's going on in the PROMs, and why the certain rules of encoding data are why they are (i.e. first bit of every disk byte must be set, no more than one set of consecutive zeros in any byte, etc.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mcesari at comcast.net Mon Mar 21 11:55:39 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:55:39 -0700 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:19 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical > descriptions of > the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to > think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that > describes it. I wonder why this is? > > Does anyone have any good suggestions for reference material on this > subject? I've got Beneath Apple DOS, which is of course excellent, and > the Bag of Tricks manual (which rehashes a lot of what's in BAD), but > nothing outside of those really describes the disk controller > circuitry at > an even lower level. I want to know what's going on in the PROMs, and > why > the certain rules of encoding data are why they are (i.e. first bit of > every disk byte must be set, no more than one set of consecutive zeros > in > any byte, etc.) > > -- > Check out Aaron Heiss' Apple ][ page. Especially the Apple ][ tech notes (posted with Apple's permission). You'll have to dig for the disk controller info. http://web.pdx.edu/~heiss/ Mike From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 21 12:33:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:33:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... Message-ID: <200503211833.KAA28651@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >Well, unexpected by me anyway. I've built a data sep circuit >from that schematic I asked for advice on earlier. Works like >a champ. I tied the circuit into a piece of ribbon cable so >that I could pretty much attach any drive I wanted to try with >it plus still be able to keep my OSI more-or-less unmodified >and use the original drive. The drives I am using are a pair >of Toshiba FDD 5451s. After testing each drive individually, >I attached another IDC card edge connector to my setup and >tried again. Nothing worked! Not only did it not work, it >trashed the diskette I was testing with. Went back to one >at a time and everything worked again. After a good bit of >trying to figure out what was wrong, I discovered that the >+5 volt pin in the power connector I was using for the #2 (B) >drive had pushed out of the nylon plug so that the drive was >unpowered. Having either of the drives unpowered on the cable >caused the other drive to screw up. The two drives cooperate >just fine when both have power. I don't remember ever seeing >this kind of problem before... I seem to remember having unpowered >drives hanging off of cables with no ill effects. I guess that >some of the signals (write gate for instance) must be getting >pulled low by the unpowered unit. Is this normal floppy >behavior and I'm just remembering wrong? > >Thanks, >Bill > Hi Bill Remember, things are active low. If the terminator was unpowered, it will pull the write gate to active ( trashing the disk ). If the drive that is unpowered is not the one with the terminator, it may not have been able to pull the lines high enough. Still, an unpowered drive should load the lines some. This is not a good thing. Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 21 13:22:10 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:22:10 -0500 Subject: Tek XD88 images and stuff In-Reply-To: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <423F1EE2.4080302@atarimuseum.com> Jules, Very cool machine, I never knew Tektronics ventured into computers, I thought they just did scopes... Very nice tour of the machine, screenshots and the insides, nice piece of h/w Curt Jules Richardson wrote: >I threw together some *really* quick pages about my Tek XD88 at: > > http://www.patooie.com/comps/tek/index.html > >I *think* it's all legal HTML and all the links work. No guarantee about >typos though, it was late when I wrote most of the text :-) > >Off-list comments about any rendering issues are welcome (particularly >Firefox / IE users), as I've only got Opera here to test with. I suspect >I'll maybe need to incorporate stylesheet stuff so that fonts will >render reasonably consistently across platforms / browsers. > >Coincidentally, I found a pile of "What's new in Computing" magazines at >the weekend from the late 80's / early 90's - I've found a few little >snippets about the XD88 line there which I'll have to scan in and >incorporate. > >cheers > >J. > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005 From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Mar 21 13:36:14 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:36:14 -0000 Subject: PDP 11/45 Further success! (and a question) Message-ID: <001701c52e4d$3f40d4a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi All, I replaced the UBC today (I found a serviceable spare of the same version in our works stores, last tested 1994....), and I can now key in a program, examine it and run it. I now need to concentrate on the PSU, before I start putting the rest of the cards back. I must also repair my UBC, in case work decides they want theirs back (unlikely, but you can never tell with bean counters). Now a question, I used the light flasher program: location contents opcode 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 001006 000005 reset 001010 000775 br -4 and it will run, however, I don't see the data lights "chase" across the console. If I single step, the program performs as expected, with the data lights going across the panel (data switch in "Data Paths" position). Also, if I run the program and halt it, the light appear at a different data bit depending on how long I let the program run (I can continue the program and it will move to a different bitn at the next halt). Am I doing something stupid, or are the bulbs just too slow to display the data? (I suppose it could be a function of the power supply fault, but I don't think it would manifest itself in this way). Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Mar 21 13:51:05 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:51:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care (Long perhaps OT) In-Reply-To: <423DBC13.50001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I thought the problem was they got the data ... but lost the software to > read the encoded > data from the tapes ... I think this was mars lander data. That it may be - lost format. As far as Mars lander - well, RCS has some of the tapes... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 21 14:06:43 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:06:43 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca><20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00c801c52e51$82aa1360$05406b43@66067007> All the "Goodwill" stores here in Houston carry computer items and so do the ones in the TwinCities (MN). John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > William Layer wrote: >> - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, >> ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't >> that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing >> the pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for >> the cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. > > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for > "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had > anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am clearly > looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my local > area? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 14:06:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:06:08 +0000 Subject: Tek XD88 images and stuff In-Reply-To: <423F1EE2.4080302@atarimuseum.com> References: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <423F1EE2.4080302@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1111435568.22438.60.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 14:22 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Jules, > > Very cool machine, I never knew Tektronics ventured into computers, > I thought they just did scopes... Yep, that's what most people think - the XD series were seriously nice machines if my /10 is anything to go by. I'd love to find a /30 with hardware 3D, but the chances of that are somewhere around zero! > Very nice tour of the machine, screenshots and the insides, nice > piece of h/w Thanks :) It was remarkably quick to get something up on the web actually - the main stumbling block was just deciding on a layout, so I just went for a keep it simple approach. I've got photos already for a lot of my other oddball stuff, so it's motivation to get that online now too :-) cheers Jules From kapteynr at cboe.com Mon Mar 21 14:05:52 2005 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:52 -0600 Subject: Light pens? Message-ID: I have a "home made" light pen on my Altair. There was an article in one of the early BYTE magazines on how to do it. It is just a phototransistor stuck into a fat ballpoint pen body on a long wire. The circuitry is very simple -- you adjust a threshold at which the transistor triggers an processor interrupt. When you get the interrupt, you software reads the scan position of the monitor from a register in the video card. The Cromemco VDM-1 allows this. We had a very simple drawing program that read the pen position and toggled the background color of characters underneath. -Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 6:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Light pens? > Okay, now my age and lack of experience is going to show: Can someone explain > to me exactly *how* a light pen works? What is the feedback mechanism if A light pen is beaically a small light detector (normally a phototransistor) that detects the ligth from the screen. Since the image on the screen is scanned (either as a raster, or as vectors), you get a pulse from the light pne output as the part of the image that the light pen is aimed at is being refreshed. Typcially, on raster scan systems (like almsot all microcomputers), the CRT controller takes the light pen signal and uses it to latch the current video RAM address, or the X/Y coordinates, or something like that. The latched values can then be read out by the processor. > drawing on, say, a completely black screen? How does the computer get It can't. Period. Any comptuer/light pen that claims to is doing one of 2 things. Either displaying, say, a 3*3 array of pixels under the light pen, and the computer moves said pattern to keep the middle pixel under the light pen (this is how a lot of vector displays did it -- if the light pen posiition is 'lost' for any reason, it was typical to sweep a line across the screen, then down the screen, to find it again) Or more likely, the 'black' screen isn't totally black, but a very dark grey or something. Dark enough that _you_ don't notice it, but the light pen does -tony From news at computercollector.com Mon Mar 21 14:26:34 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:26:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050321202635.86308.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> I'd just call the stores and ask: http://locator.goodwill.org/ --- Jim Leonard wrote: > William Layer wrote: > > - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, > ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't > that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the > pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the > cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. > > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for "goodwill" > stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had anything > computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am clearly looking in > the > wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my local area? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 14:27:57 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:27:57 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <00c801c52e51$82aa1360$05406b43@66067007> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> <00c801c52e51$82aa1360$05406b43@66067007> Message-ID: William Layer wrote: > >> - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, > >> ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't > >> that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing > >> the pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for > >> the cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. Jim Leonard wrote: > > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for > > "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had > > anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am clearly > > looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my local > > area? Jon Keys wrote: > All the "Goodwill" stores here in Houston carry computer items and so do the > ones in the TwinCities (MN). Yes, it is a regional decision. OK Goodwill Ind., for instance, will accept and attempt to refurbish and resell anything at or above PII or G3. That is to say, I personally will do so, in my "copious free time." I also keep an eye out for oddball stuff and have it listed on eBay, such as some Panasonic beastie with about 20 Disney video games I recently saw, or the Atari 800(400?) with a BASIC cart. When I indicated that many Goodwills have given up, I forgot to mention that I personally have not. -dhbarr. From news at computercollector.com Mon Mar 21 14:39:20 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050321203920.82202.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> That piqued my curiousity. So I just called the Goodwill hq's media department; they're allegedly calling me back soon. Going to seek clarification on their thoughts about collecting/collectors. --- "David H. Barr" wrote: >>>> Yes, it is a regional decision. Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 21 14:43:52 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:43:52 -0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503212042.j2LKg5cg009549@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 21 March 2005 16:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > > Actually, given that our current stupid compensation culture > seems to have jumped the pond from the US, I'm quite > surprised such places exist over there too. There *are* charidee shops here that will take in 'pre-loved' computer gear, St.Oswalds being the first one that springs to mind....I did quite well out of our local branch when I was unemployed and became their sort of 'expert' on what to give to me and what to put in the local auctions :) a From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 21 14:53:02 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:53:02 -0600 Subject: Light pens? References: Message-ID: <001801c52e57$fd078c90$3a3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Kapteyn, Rob" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:05 PM >I have a "home made" light pen on my Altair. > > There was an article in one of the early BYTE magazines on how to do it. > It is just a phototransistor stuck into a fat ballpoint pen body on a long > wire. > The circuitry is very simple -- you adjust a threshold at which the > transistor triggers an processor interrupt. > When you get the interrupt, you software reads the scan position of the > monitor from a register in the video card. > The Cromemco VDM-1 allows this. > > We had a very simple drawing program that read the pen position and > toggled the background color of characters underneath. > > -Rob I am in the process of setting up a cromemco "museum" webpage. I have never heard of a Cromemco VDM-1, can you give details of the card? I am interested in: Date of manufacture. Display characteristics (how many pixels etc). What major chips were used. Was it DMA based like the Cromemco Dazzler or did it have RAM or RAM bus. Was there OS support. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 15:01:42 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:01:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Flash longevity In-Reply-To: <20050321161648.8D4F03BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20050321161648.8D4F03BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <36130.64.139.41.130.1111438902.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jay wrote about flash problems: > It wasn't a swap partition I created in flash. It was an > OS install partition (to install the OS FROM, not to). [...] Vassilis wrote: > This is very weird, although some automated installations perform > a defect scan on the "target drive" and this will destroy the Flash. A defect scan will overwrite the contents of flash (perhaps a few times), but it won't "destroy the flash", it will just lose the contents. Even without wear levelling, each flash sector is good for at least tens of thousands of writes, and usually hundreds of thousands. Eric From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 15:11:41 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:11:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? Message-ID: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't resist... Dan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Mar 21 15:23:22 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <423F3B4A.6010400@atarimuseum.com> http://www.cray-cyber.org/ Thats a good place to start... Curt Dan Williams wrote: >I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know >anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs >and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't >resist... > >Dan > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 15:33:37 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Sellam wrote: > I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical descriptions of > the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to > think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that > describes it. I wonder why this is? Because Apple considered it somewhat proprietary. Though there's a patent on it: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4210959.pdf There's also a patent on the later IWM chip, which was basically a single chip version with a few improvements: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4742448.pdf > I want to know what's going on in the PROMs, You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. Out of print, of course, but you can get a copy for the low, low price of only $250 from an Amazon used seller. > and why > the certain rules of encoding data are why they are (i.e. first bit of > every disk byte must be set, The bits shift in from the right, and there's no counter. The only way you can tell that the complete "nybble" has been read is that the MSB of the shift register is set. > no more than one set of consecutive zeros in any byte, etc.) The restriction on no more than one consecutive zero (with the older 13-sector state machine), or no more than two consecutive zeros (with the newer 16-sector state machine) is required because the state machine cannot reliably discrimiate the length of a long period of time with no transitions. For example, it couldn't accurately distinguish four empty bit times on a drive that was slightly fast from three empty bit times on a drive that was slightly slow. For the 13-sector state machine, there could never be two consecutive zeros, and there were 34 valid nybbles that met that criterion. Two of those, D5 and AA, were used for provide a unique pattern for the start of address and data marks. The remaining 32 are used to encode 5 bits of data (2**5 == 32). The 16-sector state machine was redesigned to allow it to accurately discriminate slightly longer delays between transitions, allowing the use of two consecutive zero bits, but never three or more. There are 81 valid nybbles with that constraint. This is not enough to encode seven bits, but it is enough for six (2**6 == 64). Even with the extra two codes used for marks, only 66 nybble values are required, so 17 of the 81 have to be chosen as invalid. By adding the somewhat arbitrary prohibition of two double-zeros in a nybble, the number of valid nybbles is reduced to 72, which is still 6 more than necessary. A few more are also eliminated; I don't recall whether there was an easily stated criterion that was used to eliminate the remaining 6. When I say "somewhat arbitrary", that's not completely true. One of the criterion for choosing which of the 81 possible nybbles should be used for the actual data encoding is that it had to be possible in a very small amount of 6502 code to generate the decode table, because that had to be done in the 256-byte boot PROM along with the rest of the code needed to enable drive 0, recalibrate (seek to track 0), find sector 0, read it in, and jump to it. Both the 13-sector and 16-sector disk boot PROMs are amazing examples of virtuoso 6502 programming. But then, basically everything about the Disk II controller design and software is incredibly amazing. Eric From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 21 15:36:44 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:36:44 -0000 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003401c52e5e$14f43780$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know >anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs >and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't >resist... I think trying to get a Cray up one flight of stairs, never mind three, must surely count as on-topic! Anyway, by the time you've got it up the stairs, it *will* be 2006 .... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 21 15:45:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:45:11 +0000 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1111441511.22438.75.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 22:11 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know > anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs Weighs 635Kg apparently... :) Not exactly a light piece of hardware! No idea whether they're 3-phase or not... Where's it come from by the way? Most machines from this class usually came from interesting places... cheers Jules From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Mar 21 15:50:26 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:50:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical descriptions of > > the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to > > think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that > > describes it. I wonder why this is? > > Because Apple considered it somewhat proprietary. Though there's > a patent on it: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4210959.pdf > > There's also a patent on the later IWM chip, which was basically > a single chip version with a few improvements: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4742448.pdf > IMHO, this is a good example of proper application of patent law. Unlike some of the complete garbage getting accepted currently, the GCR technique was a non-obvious, unique method for dealing with a system of hardware, software and mechanical devices that is not 100% predictable (speed variations, bit dropouts, etc.) Just my 0.02.. Steve From gsarno at nortel.com Mon Mar 21 09:20:03 2005 From: gsarno at nortel.com (Giuseppe Sarno) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:20:03 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. Message-ID: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218A8645B@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Hi , Thanks for your answer. I should now have a disk with the system and PIP (I don't know whether it would boot though, I haven't tested it yet) Anyway I was looking at how I could use PIP to transfer the data but I only managed to find some examples Using the AUX: connector which I think is CP/M 3 (+) and not 2.2 which is the version on the 820. Do you know more on how I can use the PIP command ? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwight.elvey at amd.com] Sent: 16 March 2005 23:04 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: Sarno, Giuseppe [MOP:GM15:EXCH] Subject: Re: Xerox 820 documentation. >From: "Giuseppe Sarno" > >Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, >Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? >Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the >serial/parallel port ? > >I have seen some info at >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002642.html > >but I couldn't find more. > >Thanks. > Hi You didn't mention if you have a disk that boots and has PIP under CP/M on it. If you do, you can transfer information as ASCII like a BASIC source program or even transfer .COM files by first converting them to .HEX files and then using DDT on the 820 to move them to .COM files. If you are attempting to bootstrap with no disk, you'll have to check with others. One may be able to do it if it has a built in debug monitor. Of course, on can always write some of ones own code and replace one of the internal EPROMs. It is not as impossible as it sounds. You just have to explore a little. Dwight From bv at norbionics.com Mon Mar 21 09:42:27 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:42:27 +0100 Subject: archiving data, was RE: Media Longitevity/Care In-Reply-To: <20050321085303.14611eac.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <423D2C1E.3020709@gjcp.net> <20050320144348.BVRM1899.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20050321085303.14611eac.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:53:03 +0100, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:51:13 -0500 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:47:36 +0000, jpero at sympatico.ca >> wrote: >> > Try to make adapter to convert from one interface to IDE interface >> > and use CF card. Smallest is 8MB all the way to 8GB and price is >> > good on 1GB and below. If one knows well with SD stuff, great! >> >> Flash isn't a perfect replacement for rotating magnetic media for any >> OS that has a swap partition... > > Well, depending on the age of the hardware, it might be best to just > replace the 'swap' partition/area of the hard drive being emulated with > modern, cheap DRAM memory. The swap area doesn't have to be > non-volatile, after all. > > This depends, of course, on it being possible to specify where swap is > located, and not to just blindly use a flash drive as a plug-in HD > replacement. > The best practice is to not use swap if you use a flashdrive. Even the newest flash generation will fail early if it gets written to too often. Each block of NAND flash can be rewritten up to a million times. This may seem to be a lot until you start doing your figures. It is the most frequently changed block that will cause the drive to fail, and that will be in the file system structures. Even with the best case scenario, the drive will wear out within two years. -- Bj?rn From tim at tim-mann.org Mon Mar 21 11:05:51 2005 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:05:51 -0800 Subject: Catweasel (MK3) floppy controller question.. Message-ID: <20050321090551.62ee76a8@giga.mumblefrotz.org> > Does anyone know of a program I can use (preferably under Linux, but DOS > would probably work as well) to read a flux-transition level image off a > disk using a catweasel card? I'm trying to read some 2.4MB (5.25") > floppies from an IBM 3174 controller (using an 2.4MB floppy drive), and > am able to read in 1.2MB floppies using cw2dmk just fine, but it doesn't > do so well at processing the (aparently) mixed-density floppy I've been > screwing with since yesterday. Using the "testhist" program included > with cw2dmk, I can get information about the "unreadable" tracks, but > cw2dmk won't process them. I'm trying to make a backup image of a disk > so that I'm not screwed when the disk stops being readable... If you give testhist one more argument (a filename), it will dump the Catweasel's sample buffer to that file. That's a flux-transition level image. I don't have anything that will write such an image directly back to a disk, though. You could write a program to do it by removing most of the guts from dmk2cw. However, I don't know how readable such a disk would be. I don't really trust a process that doesn't include decoding the data, doing retries if it has a bad CRC, manually trying read-postcompensation (-o flag to cw2dmk) if that still doesn't work, and writing the data back with write-precompensation. If this data is just MFM in an IBM/ISO-style format at a higher clock rate, you probably can read it with cw2dmk by playing with enough of its options. You'll need -1 and -2 to set lower thresholds between short, medium, and long intervals (they should be about halfway between the peaks that testhist gives you), and -l to make the DMK track length twice as long as for a 1.2 MB disk. You may need to play with -o too, especially if you can read lower track numbers but higher ones keep getting CRC errors. I'd also suggest using the highest (28.322 MHz) Catweasel clock rate for these disks, seeing that you have a MK3. (The MK1 doesn't support this rate.) You'll need to give 4 as the clock rate to testhist to get a new set of peaks, and then give the -c 4 option to cw2dmk. There's still not a way to write this image back, though, as dmk2cw doesn't offer enough control from the command line. After you find a set of parameters that work in cw2dmk, define a new kind_desc in kind.h and recompile. You can then write disks that use these parameters with dmk2cw, and more conveniently read them in cw2dmk using one -k option instead of all the individual options I listed above. Feel free to email me if you need more help. -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From websupport at degnanco.com Mon Mar 21 12:09:04 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:09:04 -0500 Subject: Low-Level PC Formatting Using Debug Commands Message-ID: I have been looking for this information for a long time. I have an XT that had never been initialized, now I can proceed. Up to this point I had no success. Thank you! Bill Degnan > >> >> I just ran across this and thought it might be of interest for anyone >> doing a low level format on a PC (not AT) type controllers. It was >> taken from a February 13, 1989 issue of Tech Times that appears to be >> a ComputerLand Confidential publication (this is a copy.) My usual >> procedure was to unassemble C800:5 or C800:6 and G=????:? the address >> that was a jmp instruction. I've never used the :800 or tried to >> format a Xebec controller. >> >> ******************* >> >> Company Debug Command >> Adaptec -G=C800:CCC >> DTC -G=C800:5 >> Omti -G=C800:6 >> Western Digital -G=C800:5 or >> -G=c800:800 >> Xebec Series of commands >> -l322 >> -l321 >> -o322 0 >> -l321 >> -o320 04 >> -0320 00 >> -o320 00 >> -0320 00 >> -0320 05 >> -0320 07 (use 17 if embedded servo dr) >> At this point, the LED on the drive should come on to indicate that >> the drive is formatting. When the light goes off, coninue: >> -l321 >> -l320 >> The last entry should get 00 status back, indicating a successful >> format. > >I remember that old Xebec routine. It was always a little >nerve-wracking as you got no feedback until deep into the procedure. I >have a file folder full of old hard drive/controller lore that one day I >should scan and make available. > >If I am remembering correctly, the Xebec controller was the one >originally used in the IBM-XT machines. > >------------------------------ -- E N D -- From stuart at zen.co.uk Mon Mar 21 15:53:30 2005 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (stu) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:53:30 -0000 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001c52e60$6bbcf190$e100000a@dimension4700> http://www.spikynorman.dsl.pipex.com/CrayWWWStuff/Cfaqp1.html#TOC6 As for getting it up a flight of stairs.... good luck! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Williams" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:11 PM Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? >I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know > anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs > and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't > resist... > > Dan From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 21 15:52:10 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:52:10 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c001c52e60$3c09cae0$3a92a8c0@maggie> check to see if it's missing the hard drives.. I think MFM/EDSI and the boot tapes are rare... needs 220 single phase .. try googling there's s guy with a nice set of pictures.. ..weigh about 1200+ lbs - hehe - suggest you put them on concrete! heinz "Dan Williams" wrote To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? > I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know > anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs > and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't > resist... > > Dan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 21 15:50:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:50:56 -0700 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20050321202635.86308.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050321202635.86308.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <423F41C0.8070009@jetnet.ab.ca> Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >I'd just call the stores and ask: http://locator.goodwill.org/ > >--- Jim Leonard wrote: > > >>William Layer wrote: >> >> >>> - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, >>> >>> >>ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices aren't >>that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' doing the >>pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk for the >>cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. >> >> This may be soon in the past ... In Alberta,Canada the goverment is taxing NEW computers ( and other electronic equipment ) for recycling and paying out $$$ for the old stuff. While most of the stuff is PC's thet soon will dry up quickly. Ben alias woodelf From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Mar 21 16:10:51 2005 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:10:51 -0600 Subject: RS/6000 drive questions Message-ID: Is it like a F30? I have a RS/6000 running AIX with a DDS2 DAT tape and CD-ROM drive running right behind me. It has a 3 1/2" floppy mounted on edge in the right most position, a SCSI CD-ROM drive mounted on edge next to the floppy, a DDS2 DAT tape drive and then an empty position. I'll attempt to find the manual. Thanks Mike From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 16:19:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <46622.64.139.41.130.1111443551.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Sellam asked about details of Apple Disk II GCR encoding. I wrote: > By adding the somewhat arbitrary > prohibition of two double-zeros in a nybble, the number of valid > nybbles is reduced to 72, which is still 6 more than necessary. A > few more are also eliminated; I don't recall whether there was an > easily stated criterion that was used to eliminate the remaining 6. Now I remember. They added the requirement that there *must* be a pair of consecutive one bits in the nybble, not counting the MSB. They don't require that for the address/data field marker bytes (D5 and AA). But that requirement leaves exactly 64 valid nybble values, which can encode six bits, and it does it in such a way that the boot PROM can easily generate the decode table. There's a GPL'd C program on my web site that shows how a table of valid nybbles can be programmatically generated: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/diskii_nybble/ The output from the program is: 13 sector nybbles: 0: ab ad ae af b5 b6 b7 ba bb bd 10: be bf d6 d7 da db dd de df ea 20: eb ed ee ef f5 f6 f7 fa fb fd 30: fe ff 16 sector nybbles: 0: 96 97 9a 9b 9d 9e 9f a6 a7 ab 10: ac ad ae af b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 20: b9 ba bb bc bd be bf cb cd ce 30: cf d3 d6 d7 d9 da db dc dd de 40: df e5 e6 e7 e9 ea eb ec ed ee 50: ef f2 f3 f4 f5 f6 f7 f9 fa fb 60: fc fd fe ff Eric From m_thompson at ids.net Mon Mar 21 16:29:00 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:29:00 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20050321172900.00a7b1f0@mail.ids.net> I hope that you will have some help dragging it up the stairs. It's about 5 ft high and wide and about 4 feet deep. The RICM has an EL98: http://ricm.museum.com/collections/cray/el98.html At 10:11 PM 3/21/2005 +0100, you wrote: >I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know >anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs >and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't >resist... > >Dan > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Mar 21 16:42:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:42:49 -0500 Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200503211742.49607.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 21 March 2005 16:11, Dan Williams wrote: > I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know > anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of > stairs and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I > couldn't resist... If you don't have any luck there, I'll send some shippers to come get it. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Mar 21 16:47:20 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:47:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help out a museum? Message-ID: <51481.127.0.0.1.1111445240.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> I got the following via email a bit ago: ---[ SNIP ]--- I'm trying to fill out a display that I am organizing for a local museum. I need the following: Apple I. Apple II, IMSAI 8080, ALTAIR, Mark-8, IBM 5100, HP 9830, Arkay CT-650, Minivac 601, SIMON. (They do not have to be working.) Any help you can give me in acquiring these PCs will be appreciated. Thanks, Jim ---[ SNIP ]--- Jim is collecting for the Anderson County History Museum and can be reached at jc3435NOSPAM at charterNOSPAM.net - removing the obvious. Some of what he's looking for is improbable, but some is more common. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 21 16:46:04 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:46:04 GMT Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6025544f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone have any good suggestions for reference material on this > subject? I did a massive search a few years ago for exactly what you're looking for. IIRC I ended up with about 20MB of stuff, which is all on backup CDs at the moment. I don't think I ever found a detailed circuit description or a copy of the PROMs though. I could fish out the CD and put the stuff I've got online if you wanted to take a look at it. Speaking of PROMs, I still haven't found a source of bipolar PROMs.. those things seem to be like rocking horse manure. I even tried a couple of "obsolete component specialists" - all turned a blank. I think TI still make them, but only for the military, and they were about $40 each last time I checked. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... He's alive, Jim. Should I shoot him again? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 21 16:54:17 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:54:17 GMT Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <1111426092.22456.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4ef38dd4eec1e9.4eec1e94ef38dd@optonline.net> <1111426092.22456.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <09e6544f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1111426092.22456.41.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > items to the local tip, or try and sell them privately through the local > paper (which luckily *is* still legal here :-) Don't get me started on those things.. I (once) tried to sell an oscilloscope and a fairly old PC. Despite giving them the correct "category numbers" (hell, I even used a typewriter to type out the advert - there was no possible way to misread the details on the form), the computer ended up in the "Bric-a-brac" section and the scope ended up in the "Wanted" section (even though it was a for-sale ad). They even managed to get my phone number wrong... That after five weeks waiting for the ads to actually appear... Ebay sometimes works better, but in my experience it's a breeding ground for those on the lower end of the evolutionary ladder. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Salvation is only a Beer Bottle away... From fernande at internet1.net Mon Mar 21 17:09:54 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:09:54 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <423F5442.5060303@internet1.net> GoodWill is a proper noun.... it is the name. I think it's a US only organization. If your outside th US, that's why you've never seen one. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jim Leonard wrote: > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for > "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had > anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am > clearly looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my > local area? From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 17:24:02 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:24:02 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050321182402.7eb06874.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:30:35 -0600 "David H. Barr" wrote: > As part of that process, it is their duty to try and eliminate all > risks inherent in the resale of donated goods (in this case, classic > or neo-classic computers). In that, it is becoming increasingly > difficult to reliably destroy all possibly sensitive data and to > eliminate all potentially hazardous parts; therefore many Goodwills > are simply refusing computer donations at this point. > > It should also be noted that many individuals regard Goodwill as a > dumping ground for broken trash. While it is true that one man's > trash can sometimes be another man's treasure, for the most part every > man's trash is just that. For all these reasons and more, Goodwills > across the world are having an increasingly hard time dealing with > outmoded technology, and some must needs simply wash their hands of > the whole mess. > > David H. Barr > Sys / Net Admin. > Oklahoma Goodwill Industries, Inc. > > PS: Not offended or preaching; just advocating an alternate viewpoint. I've known Goodwill managers to have a simple answer 'Eight Dollars a Ton' as to why they refuse donations of certain items. The Eight Dollars is the disposal cost for having things they deem unsalable (or things they assume will be unsalable) hauled away. The $8/ton comes from the mid '80's though. It's probably significantly higher now. -Scott From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 21 17:34:11 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:34:11 GMT Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050320232315.NIFE11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <138d584f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1111421036.22438.28.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Except that such stores don't really exist over this side of the pond > any more - they've all been forbidden from selling electrical goods by > the health & safety morons (as in "Oh my God, it plugs into the wall - > that's *dangerous* and someone might sue us"). Yep. Same thing over here in Leeds. "Omygaaawd, that's like, so daaaaangerous... It plugs into the mains..." That said, I think there was a court case a while back.. someone sued a company because he got a static-shock off one of their products. His own damn fault for wearing synthetic fibre clothing on a dry day, but he got some stupid compensation payout anyway... I'd have fined him ?5,000 and told him to stop wasting time. If you ask me, H&S should be scrapped - let natural de-selection solve the problem. Evolution in action. If you don't know what I mean, see Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Today is cancelled due to lack of interest! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 21 17:32:38 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:32:38 GMT Subject: Anyone know anything about crays ? In-Reply-To: Dan Williams "Anyone know anything about crays ?" (Mar 21, 22:11) References: <26c11a64050321131125338712@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10503212332.ZM27692@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21 2005, 22:11, Dan Williams wrote: > I am getting an el98 cray from 1996 (I know it's OT). Anyone know > anything about these ?. I can't wait to take it up 3 flights of stairs > and I might need to slowly break it to the missus. But I couldn't > resist... Stairs? I have a friend, not far from here, who has two EL98s and a "small" T3E. They don't do stairs ;-) The 17" monitor on the top of the one in this picture: http://www.austinfs.fsnet.co.uk/machines/cray_el98.html will give some idea of scale. That's the smaller of the pair. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 21 17:46:12 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:46:12 -0500 Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? References: Message-ID: <05f101c52e70$2aa81300$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > IF the guy really has an untested unit he is able to sell for > $2000... he is one lucky SOB. I like the positive attitude. In general, the eBay bashing here tends to get really tedious. John A. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Mar 21 17:49:43 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:49:43 -0600 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. References: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218A8645B@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Message-ID: <003e01c52e70$ab5ab2f0$193dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Giuseppe Sarno" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:20 AM > Hi , > Thanks for your answer. > I should now have a disk with the system and PIP (I don't know whether it > would boot though, I haven't tested it yet) > > Anyway I was looking at how I could use PIP to transfer the data but I > only > managed to find some examples > Using the AUX: connector which I think is CP/M 3 (+) and not 2.2 which is > the version on the 820. > > Do you know more on how I can use the PIP command ? > > Thanks. You can convert any binary file to intel hex and use pip to save the file, LOAD.COM will then convert the hex file back to binary. CP/M documentation is available from (including pip docs): http://www.cpm.z80.de/ Gaby's site is also useful to make sure you have clean copies of all the utilities. MOVCPM.COM usually has the manufacturers CBIOS built in and should not be changed unless you are familiar with installing your own. Lately I have seen two requests for CP/M help on comp.os.cpm that ended up being corrupted copies of STAT.COM. One was CP/M 2.2 the other was CP/M-68K both found what they needed from Gaby's site. The first thing you should copy is a file transfer program (modem software). There are lots of programs for that (modem7, move-it, etc). Move-it is available on my site. If you are interested in CP/M you may want to try out comp.os.cpm. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From william.layer at comcast.net Mon Mar 21 17:59:21 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:59:21 -0600 Subject: [OT] Neo Geo cabinet problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050321175921.405c512f.william.layer@comcast.net> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:39:28 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I've got a 4 slot Neo Geo cabinet that is starting to act flaky. > Anyone have any ideas? I'm suspecting it's either the powersupply, > or possibly the 4-slot motherboard. Ok, some generic advice that may or may not be helpful. Connect a good DVM (if you have a fast DVM that has peak/valley hold, that is even better) to the main power supply of the unit. I assume that the 'power supply' actually derives several different voltages, so you may have to repeat this for each individual 'supply' to find the culprit. If a supply is already out-of-spec at 'idle' that's good; it's easy to spot it and fix it. Low voltages are typically due to bad electrolytic caps, bad regulators, or associated components (resistors, zener references etc). Otherwise, test it under load. If you have a game or games that will make the unit fail reliably (I love that term), that is great. Put them in place and start monitoring your power supplies; find the one(s) that sags or goes out-of-spec under load. This is where a meter with hold features is nice, it can spot fluctuations that your eye (or the sampling / display rate of the meter) cannot. If it seems to be the motherboard slots, they can be cleaned. There was a product line called 'The Eliminator' for cleaning video game systems, that used a piece of fiber material the same thickness as the card slot, wrapped in a material made by 3M that was paper thin, very strong, and could burnish contacts. You could scrap one of these and carefully use it to clean the contacts; even better, I'd like to know a 3M part number for the stuff; then you could make your own neo-geo sized cleaner. Maybe they already exist? -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:46:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Mar 20, 5 07:20:47 pm Message-ID: > > Well, unexpected by me anyway. I've built a data sep circuit > from that schematic I asked for advice on earlier. Works like > a champ. I tied the circuit into a piece of ribbon cable so > that I could pretty much attach any drive I wanted to try with > it plus still be able to keep my OSI more-or-less unmodified > and use the original drive. The drives I am using are a pair > of Toshiba FDD 5451s. After testing each drive individually, > I attached another IDC card edge connector to my setup and > tried again. Nothing worked! Not only did it not work, it > trashed the diskette I was testing with. Went back to one > at a time and everything worked again. After a good bit of > trying to figure out what was wrong, I discovered that the > +5 volt pin in the power connector I was using for the #2 (B) > drive had pushed out of the nylon plug so that the drive was > unpowered. Having either of the drives unpowered on the cable > caused the other drive to screw up. The two drives cooperate > just fine when both have power. I don't remember ever seeing > this kind of problem before... I seem to remember having unpowered > drives hanging off of cables with no ill effects. I guess that > some of the signals (write gate for instance) must be getting > pulled low by the unpowered unit. Is this normal floppy > behavior and I'm just remembering wrong? It would be expected by me if the drive cable terminator was also losing power (e.g. if the drive that lost power was the one with the termination resistor pack fitted). The correct way to drive the signal lines (both on the drives and on the controller) is with open-collector drivers, pulled up/terminated by 150 ohm resistors to +5V at the far end of the cable (outputs from the controller), or at the controller (outputs from the drive). If the former terminator loses power, then there will almost certainly be a low enough resistance from the terminator supply to ground (e.g. through the rest of that drive's electronics) to assert some or all of the signals, in particular write gate.... Hence the trashed disk. The use of open-cpllector drives means it should be safe to power down individual drives without causing signals to be asserted. I had a similar occurance with an ST506 hard disk system. This machine (a PERQ) used totam pole (or 3-state) drives onto the drive bus, not opne-collector. The problem was partly my fault (I was running a somewhat Heath Robinson set-up with the DIB (disk interface board) and drive running on top of the machine, etc. Anyway, the DIB's power connector fell out, the totam-pole drives then provided logic 0 levels to some of the drive control lines, and wiped out the only bootable POS G.7 (24 bit version) disk that I have... Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:48:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:48:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 20, 5 07:20:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:06:48 -0600, Jay West wrote: > > Note that the caps in my TU56 are electrolytic. They are not oil filled. The > > two on ebay you mentioned are oil filled. > > > > I have no idea if that makes a difference or not. > > Probably not as long as the oil stays on the inside... :-) This is not really my field, but I would think you could always replace an electrolytic by a non-electrolytic (such as an oil-filed capacitor), but not necessarily the reverse. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 21 17:53:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: vt278 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 21, 5 00:49:23 am Message-ID: > >From looking at the prints, I can see where the video chip pumps out H > sync, V sync, and video to the edge fingers... the board also needs > +5, +12 and -12 (for the DRAMs, among other uses). It's been years > since I tore apart a VT100 (was turning two dead ones into one live > one), but there's nothing magical about them... the video board > schematic is in the VT278 drawings. If you didn't want to muck around > inside a real VT100, you'd need a mono video monitor that can handle > the sync rates for 80 col and 132 col, whatever they happen to be > (never poked at the video signals with an o-scope, so can't even > hazard a guess). Well, since the VT100 has a BNC connector on the back that outputs something close to RS-170 video, I'll guess that the horizontal sync rate is 15570Hz and the vertical 60Hz :-) Combining the 2 syncs and the video to make a composite signal is a not a difficult problem. If necessary, start looking at the schematics of some 1980's home computers to see how they did it (typically XOR the syncs to get a composite sync, then a couple of transsitors to combine that with the video). -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 19:06:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:06:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: References: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Mar 20, 5 07:20:47 pm Message-ID: <63468.64.139.41.130.1111453611.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tony wrote about floppy drives: > The correct way to drive the signal lines (both on the drives and on the > controller) is with open-collector drivers, pulled up/terminated by 150 > ohm resistors to +5V at the far end of the cable (outputs from the > controller), or at the controller (outputs from the drive). Note that one is supposed to use 48 mA drives. Suggested drivers are the 7438 quad 2-input NAND buffer, or the 7406 or 7407 hex inverting or non-inverting buffer. The 74LSxx, 74HCxx, 74HCTxx, etc. "equivalents" are NOT acceptable, as they have significantly lower rated drive current. Fortunately the 7406, 7407, and 7438 are still being manufactured, even though many other "plain" TTL parts have been discontinued. It is recommended to use 7414 schmitt-trigger inverters or equivalent as the receivers. For this, a 74LS14 is acceptable. Other 74xx14 parts will probably work, though most of them have less hysteresis than the 7414 and 74LS14 so they may be less tolerant of noise. > The use of open-cpllector drives means it should be safe to power down > individual drives without causing signals to be asserted. Provided that the drive uses interface circuits that present a high impedance when powered down. Not all drives do that, so it is not generally recommended to power down some drives on the bus while using others. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 19:15:33 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:15:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 20, 5 07:20:54 pm Message-ID: <64149.64.139.41.130.1111454133.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Tony wrote: > This is not really my field, but I would think you could always replace > an electrolytic by a non-electrolytic (such as an oil-filed capacitor), > but not necessarily the reverse. Assuming the capacitance and voltage ratings are the same, that would probably be true unless the circuit required a minimum or maximum ESR. Electrolytic capacitors generally have a much higher ESR than non-electrolytic types, though there are some new (expensive) low-ESR electrolytics. Most of the time it is OK to replace a capacitor with one that has lower ESR. An example where that is not true is filter capacitors on low-dropout (LDO) linear voltage regulators; LDOs have both minimum and maximum ESR requirements for the output filter capacitor, and in some cases the input filter as well, and exhibit oscillation and other instabilities outside the specified ESR range. That's why I still prefer normal (non-LDO) linear regulators wherever LDO is not required. Typically where moderately high capacitance is required with low ESR, solid tantalum capacitors are used, however there are some potential problems with tantalums so they are best avoided when not necessary. (And they are relatively expensive.) Tantalum capacitors will fail in a particularly spectacular fashion if reverse-biased. One day when we arrived at work, there was a 3/4-inch hole burned through our multi-thousand-dollar prototype PCB, and a charred spot on the workbench below it. Although there was not enough evidence left to prove it, we believe that a tantalum capacitor had been installed backwards. Eric From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Mar 21 19:23:37 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:23:37 GMT Subject: Tek XD88 images and stuff In-Reply-To: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111426691.22456.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1111426691.22456.49.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I threw together some *really* quick pages about my Tek XD88 at: > > http://www.patooie.com/comps/tek/index.html Nice machine. What struck me was the keyboard layout - it looks a lot like the keyboard layout I've seen on VTs. My F1+ uses a similar layout (only with an inverted-T cursor pad instead of the square blob on the Tek). And there's me thinking that Tek only made testgear (and at one point colour printers)... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... As I said before, I never repeat myself. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 21 20:01:23 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:01:23 -0600 Subject: classic cmputer siting Message-ID: <01a201c52e83$0ca9df60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> 7:50pm CST, The Weather Channel on Charter cable tv, "Storm Stories" Sighted in background, two data general Nova 3's in nice blue racks :) Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 21 20:04:59 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:04:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: classic cmputer siting In-Reply-To: <01a201c52e83$0ca9df60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <01a201c52e83$0ca9df60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <34185.64.139.41.130.1111457099.squirrel@64.139.41.130> > Sighted in background, two data general Nova 3's in nice blue racks :) So in your posting, you cited a sighting of a site with classic computers. :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 21 20:15:31 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:15:31 -0600 Subject: classic cmputer siting References: <01a201c52e83$0ca9df60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <34185.64.139.41.130.1111457099.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <01b301c52e85$0775b5d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > So in your posting, you cited a sighting of a site with classic > computers. :-) Well, the occupants of that site are no doubt familiar with the term "Storm Chasers", so I assume they'll have some idea what's going on when I show up on their doorstep disguised as a CE with a large van. Jay From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 21 20:22:55 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:22:55 -0600 Subject: Book inside out Message-ID: <001101c52e86$102ee010$40406b43@66067007> I was given a book the other day called "inside out" Microsoft - In Our Own Words. have not read it yet just turned few pages, anyone on the list have this or read it? John From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 20:47:52 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:47:52 +0800 Subject: PDP 11/45 Further success! (and a question) In-Reply-To: <001701c52e4d$3f40d4a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <001701c52e4d$3f40d4a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:36:14 -0000, Jim Beacon wrote: > Hi All, > > Now a question, I used the light flasher program: > > location contents opcode > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 > 001006 000005 reset > 001010 000775 br -4 > > and it will run, however, I don't see the data lights "chase" across the LOL! :-) Filaments simply needs time to warm up.... Just put in a pause/dummy loop after the "rol". /wai-sun From rcini at optonline.net Mon Mar 21 21:12:30 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:12:30 -0500 Subject: Book inside out In-Reply-To: <001101c52e86$102ee010$40406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000201c52e8c$fefdeb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Yes. I'm about 2/3 the way through. I read in-depth the contributions from names I recognize; the others I skimmed. I find the typography and layout hard to read -- like Wired magazine when it first came out. I like the stories from the early days. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Keys Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:23 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp Subject: Book inside out I was given a book the other day called "inside out" Microsoft - In Our Own Words. have not read it yet just turned few pages, anyone on the list have this or read it? John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Mar 21 21:28:44 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:28:44 -0500 Subject: classic cmputer siting In-Reply-To: <34185.64.139.41.130.1111457099.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <0IDQ007RXHMNGG@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>>> Sighted in background, two data general Nova 3's in nice blue racks :) >> So in your posting, you cited a sighting of a site with classic >> computers. :-) How ex-citing! From cctech at randy482.com Mon Mar 21 22:04:43 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:04:43 -0600 Subject: DDD drive alignment References: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <002701c52e94$4c5714a0$7a3cd7d1@randylaptop> Does anyone know of any "cheap" DDD alignment systems? I had a URL to a canadian outfit but I lost it. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 21 22:23:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:23:47 -0600 Subject: Book inside out In-Reply-To: <000201c52e8c$fefdeb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000201c52e8c$fefdeb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <423F9DD3.30800@oldskool.org> Richard A. Cini wrote: > Yes. I'm about 2/3 the way through. I read in-depth the contributions from > names I recognize; the others I skimmed. I find the typography and layout > hard to read -- like Wired magazine when it first came out. I like the > stories from the early days. Is there any indication that this book is a reaction to Andy H.'s Apple book? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:52:30 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:52:30 +0800 Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: <63468.64.139.41.130.1111453611.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <63468.64.139.41.130.1111453611.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:06:51 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Note that one is supposed to use 48 mA drives. Suggested drivers are > the 7438 quad 2-input NAND buffer, or the 7406 or 7407 hex inverting > or non-inverting buffer. The 74LSxx, 74HCxx, 74HCTxx, etc. > "equivalents" are NOT acceptable, as they have significantly lower > rated drive current. Fortunately the 7406, 7407, and 7438 are still How low? 2x? What if one were to parallel the drivers (perhaps in piggyback manner)? /wai-sun From news at computercollector.com Mon Mar 21 23:45:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:45:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Goodwill stores Message-ID: <20050322054522.60641.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Heard back from the Goodwill spokeswoman. Obviously she doesn't know much about our hobby, but she sounded genuinely interested. Here's what she had to say, as published in this week's Computer Collector Newsletter... -------------------------------------------- >> WELCOME TO THE COMPUTER COLLECTOR NEWSLETTER >> W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com >> Vol. 4, #12: March 21, 2005: News/opinion, tidbits, classifieds > > This week's issue: > 1. Goodwill stores > 2. Custom Apple II games > 3. Amiga East 2005 > 4. Slide rule retro > > **************************************** > We really want to hear from you! What's unique about your collection? > What article topics should we explore? What crazy experience did you > have with a vintage machine, now or when it was new? Please tell us > what is on your mind at news at computercollector.com. > > **************************************** > NEWS & OPINION > > Recently there's been discussion of finding vintage computers at > Goodwill stores, via the classiccmp.org's cctalk mailing list. How > can we as collectors ensure that significant items aren't disposed of? > > Goodwill Industries International, the umbrella organization for 200 > independent agencies, does not set master policies for the operations > of its 1,874 stores in the U.S., 75 in Canada, and one online (the > address is http://www.shopgoodwill.com, but it's up to each store to > determine which items are posted). About two-thirds of the stores > accept computers, although there is no master list of which stores > specifically. The only way to find out is to contact the stores -- > information is at http://locator.goodwill.org and (800)664-6577. > > But what can computer collectors do to salvage, say, a pre-release > prototype of an IBM 5100? "Shop early and shop often" is the approach > taken by collectors of most sorts, spokeswoman Christine Bragale > noted. Bargains for computer collectors are especially likely to be > found at the Goodwill Computer Works stores in Santa Ana, Calif. > (http://www.ocgoodwill.org/computer_works/index.html) and Austin, > Texas (http://www.austincomputerworks.org/contact.html) -- the Austin > location even has its own computer museum slated to re-open in May. > > Store managers are generally alert for valuables, at least since > someone found an original Picasso etching in a $3 throwaway pile a few > years ago, Bragale said. "The donations attendant who had sorted it > saw a broken frame and a picture of a nude," hardly something Goodwill > would normally carry, she explained. Luckily that was noticed in time > and sold at auction, she said. Vintage computer hobbyists are > encouraged to volunteer for sorting duty at their local stores. > > *************************************** > BOOKS FROM THE CCN STAFF: > > >> Buy your copy of "Collectible Microcomputers" directly from author > Michael Nadeau: http://www.classictechpub.com. This amazing book > includes more than 700 computers with details and pricing. > > >> "Computer Collector Newsletter's Guide to U.S. Computer Museums, > 2005 Edition". Booklet examines 21 museums and includes GPS > coordinates. It costs $6 ($10 for two), with $1 S&H per every two > copies. PayPal to news at computercollector.com. > > >> Christine Finn's "Artifacts: An archeologist's year in Silicon > Valley" is the story of the change from farmlands to high-tech. Buy > it directly from MIT Press at http://tinyurl.com/6rllz (also see > Christine's blog http://traumwerk.stanford.edu:3455/ChristineFinn/9). > > **************************************** > This week's vintage gaming news from Armchair Arcade > (http://www.armchairarcade.com): > > -- Do you remember Mystery House, the classic Apple II game from > Sierra? Now you can play custom versions; the details are at > http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/news.php?extend.277. > > **************************************** > TIDBITS > > -- Amiga East 2005 will be held May 28-29 at the Marriott Courtyard > adjacent to New York City's LaGuardia airport. This year is the > Amiga's 20th anniversary. Tickets are $20 per day or $25 for both > days. For more information please visit http://tinyurl.com/3nwzr. > > -- First I thought the binary wristwatches at ThinkGeek.com were the > coolest ones around (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/6a17/). > Then I thought the new PalmOS wristwatch from Fossil took the top > honor (http://tinyurl.com/5canr). Now I'm into ThinkGeek's slide rule > watch (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/74ce/zoom/). How cool > is this!? Which would you rather have? (And will it run CP/M?) > > **************************************** > CLASSIFIEDS > > This week's classifieds are sponsored by the Vintage Computer > Marketplace at marketplace.vintage.org. > > For sale: > 1. Full Apple III Setup: > http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/viewtopic.php?t=1674 > 2. Vic 20 setup: > http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/viewtopic.php?t=1671 > 3. Commodore 64 lot: > http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/viewtopic.php?t=1668 > > Wanted: > 1. Commodore Pet: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/pet2001.shtml > 2. Commodore 1084 monitor bezel: > http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/viewtopic.php?t=1673 > > **************************************** > SPONSORED LINKS: > > >> For more buy/sell/trade opportunities, please visit the Vintage > Computer Forum at www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum. > > >> VintageTech provides services such as patent litigation support, > prior art research, vintage computer consulting, movie and photography > props, media and data conversion, appraisals, and sales brokering. > Visit us: www.vintagetech.com. > > >> Special thanks to EvenLink LLC for sponsoring our domain name and > e-mail hosting. Please visit http://www.evenlink.com for details. > > **************************************** > HAPPY VINTAGE COMPUTING! ----------------------------------------------------- Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! - It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address - Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com - We're approaching 700 readers: win a prize! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 00:28:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:28:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unexpected floppy behavior... In-Reply-To: References: <63468.64.139.41.130.1111453611.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <34446.64.169.63.74.1111472903.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote about the 7438/7406/7407 buffers: > The 74LSxx, 74HCxx, 74HCTxx, etc. > "equivalents" are NOT acceptable, as they have significantly lower > rated drive current. Wai-Sun wrote: > How low? 2x? About 24 mA (vs. the needed 48 mA) for 74LS, less for 74HC and HCT. 74S is pretty good, but I don't remember the numbers. > What if one were to parallel the drivers (perhaps in piggyback manner)? That would probably work. Can't really be guaranteed, since if Vol is lower on one driver than the other, the load won't be balanced between the two. If using a 7438/7406/7407 is really a problem for you, there are various more modern alternatives. For instance, a 74ABT125 or 74ABT126 can be used as a quad 64 mA open collector driver, by tying the inputs to ground and using the enables as the data input. However, 74ABT outputs will have much faster edges than plain 74xx, which in this application is not a particularly good thing. The 7438, 7406, and 7407 are actually quite good for this application. They are just about as close to bullet-proof OC drivers as you're going find. Eric From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Mar 22 06:11:48 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:11:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for NextStep 3.3 Developer CD Message-ID: All, Can someone with a copy of the NextStep 3.3 Developer CD help me out? If so, please contact me off-list. Steve From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 22 06:44:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:44:04 -0500 Subject: DDD drive alignment In-Reply-To: <002701c52e94$4c5714a0$7a3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050322074404.00946ce0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What is a "DDD Alignment System"? I have a couple of Brikon 723s and a Sony alignment controller. The Brikon stuff shows up fairly regularly on E-bay and usually sells cheap. Joe At 10:04 PM 3/21/05 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know of any "cheap" DDD alignment systems? > >I had a URL to a canadian outfit but I lost it. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 22 06:52:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:52:57 -0500 Subject: New Find: Tektronix 4052 +++ Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050322075257.00945560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> My Tektronix magnetism is still working. Yesterday I got a call from one of my sources to tell me that they had a new load of stuff but they added that they thought it was all "crap". Went out there anyway and they first thing that I found was a Tektronix 4052 computer :-). Dug a little further and found a Tektronix 4631 Hardcopy unit and two Tektronix 8" disk drives :-) :-) :-) AFIK this is the first set of disk drives that anyone has ever found for a 4052 and only the second set of disk drives for ANT 405x computer. Eveything was in surprisingly good condition. One key had been knocked off the keyboard but I found it in the pile and it didn't look like the keyswitch was broken. I didn't find the interconnecting cables but the 4052 uses a regular GP-IB cable to talk to the master disk drive and a straight through cable to connect the two disk drives. I haven't looked to see what the hardcopy unit uses. Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 22 07:18:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:18:56 +0000 Subject: New Find: Tektronix 4052 +++ In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050322075257.00945560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050322075257.00945560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1111497536.24242.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-22 at 07:52 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > My Tektronix magnetism is still working. Yesterday I got a call from one > of my sources to tell me that they had a new load of stuff but they added > that they thought it was all "crap". Went out there anyway and they first > thing that I found was a Tektronix 4052 computer :-). Dug a little further > and found a Tektronix 4631 Hardcopy unit and two Tektronix 8" disk drives > :-) :-) :-) Nice. We've got one of those 4631 hardcopy units, but nobody with any knowledge about them (is there any particular Tek they're supposed to be used with?) We've got a 4052, but the faceplate's smashed. I've not investigated whether it's just a piece of coloured glass / perspex (and so easily replaceable) or whether it's far more serious and may write off the whole unit :-( > AFIK this is the first set of disk drives that anyone has ever found for > a 4052 and only the second set of disk drives for ANT 405x computer. What model? We've got a Tek 4097 GPIB disk unit. Twin drives IIRC, but I'm not at the museum to check and I don't think I have any photos here on local disk. Nope. > keyswitch was broken. I didn't find the interconnecting cables but the 4052 > uses a regular GP-IB cable to talk to the master disk drive and a straight > through cable to connect the two disk drives. Hmm, interesting. Maybe I'm misremembering our unit having twin drives. I haven't seen any kind of slave disk unit though, just this 4097. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:19:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: $2000 Black Apple (?) - scam ? In-Reply-To: <20050320213900.MBIQ11552.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > He's left me on his mailing list, and since than has reported that he had > an offer for $500, then $1000, and this morning he says he has an offer for > $2000. I corresponded with him again and he says: > >ok right now got offer for 2000 from people in uk. have 2 different people > >in uk that want it for good money. > > This seems completely ludicrous to me --- I know B&H Apples are considered > desirable by some, but $2000 (and shipping from US->UK)!!! Please, for the last time, these things are not rare, and not even that special (and this from a guy who, above all else, loves Apple stuff). > Smells like a scam... (?) Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from a scam. > Whats a B&H Apple worth these days? Whatever someone is willing to pay. His $150 start price was already too high. Maybe $100, but it would have to be in IMMACULATE condition and come with a bunch of extras. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brian.russell at iclway.co.uk Mon Mar 21 16:58:06 2005 From: brian.russell at iclway.co.uk (brian.russell) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:58:06 -0000 Subject: Looking for PERQ Message-ID: <006801c52e69$99f45ea0$a51f2850@oemcomputer> Hi Ian, I have just now managed to re-establish my link to cctech-classiccmp and found you posting. My reply has already been sent. yes, I still have two PERQs that I will be getting rid of once I have got the software archived. Regards, Brian. From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 22 01:00:03 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:00:03 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Control Data 160-A, 8090 or 8092 Message-ID: <423FC273.8020700@ix.netcom.com> Now that I have the time, I would love to restore a 160-A. I'm in the market for CDC systems or parts of that vintage. Any one on this list have any of the computers, paper tape equiment or typewriter? Numbers like 161, 162, 168, 169, 350, 8090, 808X,etc. I know that the Museum in Mountain View has one, but they have indicated they are not ready to restore it yet. Any one know where there are some other dealers or individuals who might have these systems? Billy Pettit From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Mar 22 07:55:36 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:55:36 -0500 Subject: Book inside out Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF391@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Jim: No, not at all...the timing is off. I think that the Inside Out book was keyed off of Microsoft's 25th anniversary, while Andy's book came out in December. Incidentially, Microsoft was founded as a partnership on September 5, 1975. A search on Amazon reveals that the publication date of "Inside Out" was September, 2000 while "Revolution in the Valley" has a publication date of December 1, 2004. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:trixter at oldskool.org] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:24 PM To: rcini at optonline.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Book inside out Richard A. Cini wrote: > Yes. I'm about 2/3 the way through. I read in-depth the contributions from > names I recognize; the others I skimmed. I find the typography and layout > hard to read -- like Wired magazine when it first came out. I like the > stories from the early days. Is there any indication that this book is a reaction to Andy H.'s Apple book? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:32:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:32:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <20050321095013.13b987db.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, William Layer wrote: > - 'Rare' Mac128.. The original 128K Mac is the unit that put Macintosh > on the map, and tho I haven't got production numbers handy, it's clear > that a goodly number of these were made. That said, it is the *first* > one, and from a collecting standpoint, is a good piece to have. The later model of the 128K Mac has an emblem on the back that says "Macintosh 128", which is to differentiate it from the "Macintosh 512" model that Apple began producing. An original "original" Mac will not have that emblem. > - What's rarer, is to find a 128 that is un-tampered. Vast portions of > the 128s eventually got a 512 or 512e motherboard (FatMac) - others just > got the 512/512e PROMs which enabled them to work with additional > software, and to boot directly from the Mac Serial Hard Disk, which is > itself much rarer than the 128. So, I'd tend to think that an untampered > 128, with no scars from ham-fisted 'cracking' and a serial hard drive is > fairly 'rare'. Devils in the details, as usual. I agree. > - While eBay prices are to be taken as a general mix of legtimacy, > ignorance, greed, stupidity and outright scamming, Goodwill prices > aren't that much more 'helpful' either. Unless they have a good 'picker' > doing the pricing, Goodwill and their ilk have a mission to sell old junk > for the cheap. We've all had impossibly lucky finds at these places.. I agree. If you want an average "value" then you should consult with an appraiser. I happen to know one ;) > - My favorite eBay canard re: Macs is the "I opened it up to have a > look, and it's SIGNED on the back cover!!!!". Of course, they are all > signed up until the Classic era (I think the sigs went away with the new > case, but I could be wrong). Yeah, and I have a //gs SIGNED BY WOZ!! L@@K R at RE!!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:33:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:33:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <1111421036.22438.28.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Except that such stores don't really exist over this side of the pond > any more - they've all been forbidden from selling electrical goods by > the health & safety morons (as in "Oh my God, it plugs into the wall - > that's *dangerous* and someone might sue us"). > > Actually, given that our current stupid compensation culture seems to > have jumped the pond from the US, I'm quite surprised such places exist > over there too. Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay high disposal fees. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:37:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:37:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for > "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that had > anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am clearly > looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in my local > area? Try looking in the phone book under "Thrift Stores". The privately owned, for-profit chains are actually where you're more likely to find interesting old computer stuff. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:45:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <001401c52e3e$66be3a40$0000fea9@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mark Firestone wrote: > I've got the DOS Manual, and I used to have Beneath Apple DOS... If you > want more detail than that, you might have to email Woz... I mean, he > designed the whole thing... He may be the only one who knows... > > And, being Woz, he might even answer you. It might be interesting to ask him someday as I might get some insight not available anywhere else, but this assumes he still remembers all the fine details. I did finally find a good description in _Understanding the Apple II_ by Jim Sather from Quality Software (with a forward by Steve Wozniak). 45 pages alone on the disk controller circuitry and software. Woohoo! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 09:56:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > I am pretty surprised that I can't find any good technical descriptions of > > the Apple ][ disk controller. It's not in the DOS manual and, come to > > think of it, I can't think of any publication Apple came out with that > > describes it. I wonder why this is? > > Because Apple considered it somewhat proprietary. Though there's > a patent on it: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4210959.pdf > > There's also a patent on the later IWM chip, which was basically > a single chip version with a few improvements: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/patent/us/4742448.pdf Interesting. > > I want to know what's going on in the PROMs, > > You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe > Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. Out of print, of course, but > you can get a copy for the low, low price of only $250 from an Amazon > used seller. While that's a good book, it has nothing on the disk controller. See my previous message for a better selection. > > and why > > the certain rules of encoding data are why they are (i.e. first bit of > > every disk byte must be set, > > The bits shift in from the right, and there's no counter. The only > way you can tell that the complete "nybble" has been read is that the > MSB of the shift register is set. How...lame. There's a specific number of cycles that it takes to assemble an 8-bit byte. Why can't one just go off this timing to determine when a full byte is read? And if this is possible, then does that mean that one can really store a byte that doesn't have the MSB set, and subsequently read it back? > The restriction on no more than one consecutive zero (with the older > 13-sector state machine), or no more than two consecutive zeros (with > the newer 16-sector state machine) is required because the state > machine cannot reliably discrimiate the length of a long period of > time with no transitions. For example, it couldn't accurately > distinguish four empty bit times on a drive that was slightly fast > from three empty bit times on a drive that was slightly slow. I see. And this is where I'm confused. Beneath Apple DOS shows diagrams that indicate there's a clock pulse between every data bit. So either that diagram is wrong, and there are no clock pulses, or my understanding of disk drive technology prevents me from understanding why the controller can't use the clock pulses to determine whether 3 or 4 zero bits have passed under the head. > The 16-sector state machine was redesigned to allow it to accurately > discriminate slightly longer delays between transitions, allowing the > use of two consecutive zero bits, but never three or more. There are > 81 valid nybbles with that constraint. This is not enough to encode > seven bits, but it is enough for six (2**6 == 64). Even with the extra > two codes used for marks, only 66 nybble values are required, so 17 of > the 81 have to be chosen as invalid. By adding the somewhat arbitrary > prohibition of two double-zeros in a nybble, the number of valid > nybbles is reduced to 72, which is still 6 more than necessary. A > few more are also eliminated; I don't recall whether there was an > easily stated criterion that was used to eliminate the remaining 6. According to my reading (in Beneath Apple DOS), you can only have *one pair* of consecutive zeros in any one byte, but it was not clear if that was a hardware constraint or an artificial constraint to pare down the number of "legal" values. > When I say "somewhat arbitrary", that's not completely true. One > of the criterion for choosing which of the 81 possible nybbles should > be used for the actual data encoding is that it had to be possible in > a very small amount of 6502 code to generate the decode table, because > that had to be done in the 256-byte boot PROM along with the rest of > the code needed to enable drive 0, recalibrate (seek to track 0), find > sector 0, read it in, and jump to it. Both the 13-sector and 16-sector > disk boot PROMs are amazing examples of virtuoso 6502 programming. I've stated this on numerous occasions myself :) > But then, basically everything about the Disk II controller design > and software is incredibly amazing. In the top ten great hacks of all time, this is certainly one of them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 10:02:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:02:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help out a museum? In-Reply-To: <51481.127.0.0.1.1111445240.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Erik Klein wrote: > I got the following via email a bit ago: > > ---[ SNIP ]--- > I'm trying to fill out a display that I am organizing for a local museum. > I need the following: > > Apple I. Apple II, IMSAI 8080, ALTAIR, Mark-8, IBM 5100, HP 9830, Arkay > CT-650, Minivac 601, SIMON. (They do not have to be working.) > > Any help you can give me in acquiring these PCs will be appreciated. I spoke to Jim as well, and wished him much luck. Basically, he got his list from here: http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml Most of the computers he lists are either impossible to find or were never manufactured (i.e. the SIMON and Mark-8 were kits), or are beyond the budget of his country museum (Apple-1). I explained all this to him and offered additional assistance, but he went away quietly. That he still might be at it tells me he didn't believe me, I suppose. Oh well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Tue Mar 22 10:27:17 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:27:17 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: >Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, >mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay high >disposal fees. The one that used to be near me didn't sell computers because of support issues. They started out selling them, then found that no matter how much they marked it "all sales as is and final", people would come back and ask for support getting the machine to work correctly. So they started tossing the computers that were donated, and selling the rest of the items that came with it (monitor, keyboard, mouse, cables, printers, software, speakers... anything but the CPU itself). Alas, they don't exist any more, the owner of the building felt a Salvation Army store wasn't the right "image" for his property... so he kicked them out. I was sad for a while, but now a japanese resturant is going into the building, so I'm happy again. (now if I can just find another goodwill type store in the area to start visiting) -chris From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Mar 22 10:56:12 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:56:12 -0600 Subject: DDD drive alignment References: <0IDN007FNLZZPI@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <3.0.6.32.20050322074404.00946ce0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003201c52f00$131e3760$483cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Joe R." Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 6:44 AM > What is a "DDD Alignment System"? I have a couple of Brikon 723s and a > Sony alignment controller. The Brikon stuff shows up fairly regularly on > E-bay and usually sells cheap. > > Joe After re-reading my post I realize anyone unfamiliar with it can be confused. DDD - Digital Diagnostic Diskettes is a system that runs on a computer to align disk drives without a scope. > > > At 10:04 PM 3/21/05 -0600, you wrote: >>Does anyone know of any "cheap" DDD alignment systems? >> >>I had a URL to a canadian outfit but I lost it. >> >> >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 22 11:03:16 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:03:16 -0800 Subject: New Find: Tektronix 4052 +++ References: <3.0.6.32.20050322075257.00945560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1111497536.24242.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42404FD4.69C85E04@msm.umr.edu> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Nice. We've got one of those 4631 hardcopy units, but nobody with any > knowledge about them (is there any particular Tek they're supposed to be > used with?) any way to get the consumables for these. I recall some special roll of paper, plus a liquid fixing material. didnt they come out wet? The ones I saw had a special crt with one bright line that displayed the contents of the line being read from the master display, as the storage crt was flooded to read back its phosphor. maybe these units are newer or didnt have the storage tube and instead had graphical display memory to do the same work. The displays were were always interesting, but in my experience the phosophor would wear out and not work as sharp. jim From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 22 11:13:24 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:13:24 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050322110742.052d6f00@mail> At 09:37 AM 3/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Try looking in the phone book under "Thrift Stores". The privately owned, >for-profit chains are actually where you're more likely to find >interesting old computer stuff. That's true around here, too. There are also non-Goodwill charity shops with their own (different) policies. I think all of these places suffer (from out collecting perspective) from subjective or uninformed policies about all goods - not just computer stuff. I see some charity shops run by senior-citizen volunteers around here who routinely toss what they consider to be "junk" (like old household goods) yet would fetch a good price if they marketed them correctly. I routinely see graniteware (speckled-paint metal pans) and other 100-year-plus tin items in the dumpster. Meanwhile, they're trying to sell 15-year-old mono monitors for $15. But as with all of these places, eBay now serves as a convenient metric to help determine what's valuable and what price to put on the tag. If there's a name on the label, they can search for it. - John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 22 12:21:40 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:21:40 -0500 Subject: DDD drive alignment In-Reply-To: <200503221800.j2MI0M9P022975@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503221821.j2MILeXW007705@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> A "DDD Alignment System" is an alignment system using a "Digitial Diagnostic Disk(ette)" The DDD is a very special diskette that has various tracks and sectors recorded on the disk intentionally misaligned. By knowing how the disk was made (which sectors were misaligned, in which direction, and by how much), and by seeing which sectors can and cannot be read, the exact alignment status of a drive can be tested without an oscilloscope or any other test equipment. All that you need is the DDD disk and a software program that matches the disk and the disk controller of the target system. Dysan made these, and perhaps others did also. I have some here for 8" and 5.25" drives. They are good for checking the alignment, but they are kind of useless for actually adjusting it if it's off. However, my recollection is that they ALSO have the analog "cats eye" tracks on them for alignment with an oscilloscope. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 12:36:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:36:03 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050322133603.795e1046.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:37:15 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > This is just killing me: What are common names/organizations for > > "goodwill" stores? I have never once been to a goodwill place that > > had anything computer-related, only clothing for the most part. I am > > clearly looking in the wrong places!! Where should I be checking in > > my local area? > > Try looking in the phone book under "Thrift Stores". The privately > owned, for-profit chains are actually where you're more likely to find > interesting old computer stuff. > > -- Don't make the mistake of not knowing that Goodwill Industries is privately owned. It's a non-profit, but it's a privately held business. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 12:41:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:41:24 -0500 Subject: Help out a museum? In-Reply-To: References: <51481.127.0.0.1.1111445240.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20050322134124.4d6c05d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:02:58 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Erik Klein wrote: > > > I got the following via email a bit ago: > > > > ---[ SNIP ]--- > > I'm trying to fill out a display that I am organizing for a local > > museum. I need the following: > > > > Apple I. Apple II, IMSAI 8080, ALTAIR, Mark-8, IBM 5100, HP 9830, > > Arkay CT-650, Minivac 601, SIMON. (They do not have to be working.) > > > > Any help you can give me in acquiring these PCs will be appreciated. > > I spoke to Jim as well, and wished him much luck. Basically, he got > his list from here: > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml > > Most of the computers he lists are either impossible to find or were > never manufactured (i.e. the SIMON and Mark-8 were kits), or are > beyond the budget of his country museum (Apple-1). I explained all > this to him and offered additional assistance, but he went away > quietly. That he still might be at it tells me he didn't believe me, > I suppose. > > Oh well. > > -- Perhaps with his 'it doesn't have to be working' comment he could use some help producing replicas. If it's an educational museum display, I mean, and not a collection. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 12:44:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:44:10 -0500 Subject: Book inside out In-Reply-To: <423F9DD3.30800@oldskool.org> References: <000201c52e8c$fefdeb40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <423F9DD3.30800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050322134410.69ad388d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:23:47 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Yes. I'm about 2/3 the way through. I read in-depth the > > contributions from names I recognize; the others I skimmed. I find > > the typography and layout hard to read -- like Wired magazine when > > it first came out. I like the stories from the early days. > > Is there any indication that this book is a reaction to Andy H.'s > Apple book?-- What? There was a similar book out earlier on Xerox PARC?? (rim-shot) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 12:43:26 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: >> You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe >> Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. Sellam wrote: > While that's a good book, it has nothing on the disk controller. See > my previous message for a better selection. Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The Disk Controller". And pages 9-1 through 9-45 seem to give a detailed explanation of how it works. But I guess this must just be a particularly strange side effect of the drugs that I'm not taking. >> The bits shift in from the right, and there's no counter. The only >> way you can tell that the complete "nybble" has been read is that the >> MSB of the shift register is set. > How...lame. There's a specific number of cycles that it takes to assemble > an 8-bit byte. No, there aren't. The disk drive operates asynchronously to the computer, and motor speed variations of both the drive that wrote the disk and the drive that's reading it affect it a lot. > Why can't one just go off this timing to determine when a > full byte is read? And if this is possible, then does that mean that one > can really store a byte that doesn't have the MSB set, and subsequently > read it back? Not reliably. > I see. And this is where I'm confused. Beneath Apple DOS shows diagrams > that indicate there's a clock pulse between every data bit. So either > that diagram is wrong, and there are no clock pulses, The authors of Beneath Apple DOS had no clue whatsoever as to what was going on at that level, so they apparently just assumed that it worked the same as other disk controllers in that regard. There are no clock bits. That's the whole point of GCR. Fortunately they understood the higher-level stuff, so the rest of the book is much more accurate. > According to my reading (in Beneath Apple DOS), you can only have *one > pair* of consecutive zeros in any one byte, but it was not clear if that > was a hardware constraint or an artificial constraint to pare down the > number of "legal" values. Artificial constraint. The hardware (w/ the 16 sector state machine) can deal with any nybble that has the MSB set, and no more than two consecutive zeros. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 12:58:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:58:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <32998.64.169.63.74.1111517897.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: > Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in > front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The > Disk Controller". Yes, I was in fact hallucinating. I grabbed the wrong book. Eric From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 22 12:58:45 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:58:45 -0500 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller Message-ID: <20050322185845.PEG16092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>> You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe >>> Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. >> While that's a good book, it has nothing on the disk controller. See >> my previous message for a better selection. >Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in >front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The >Disk Controller". And pages 9-1 through 9-45 seem to give a detailed >explanation of how it works. But I guess this must just be a >particularly strange side effect of the drugs that I'm not taking. Um .. don't really want to get into a discussion on your drug habits or what visions they may be causing you .. but what edition of the book do you have? - Mine (first edition, first printing -- 1983) Has only chapters 1-8 (no 9) and makes no mention of the disk controller... [I looked when Sellam first asked for information] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Mar 22 13:05:10 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:05:10 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> My local Goodwill stores still have some computer stuff. However, I notice lots of printers, and monitors. I suspect they are tossing many of the actual computers. I asked one of the employees about it. He said they they could only sell them for about 99 cents..... I'm thinking that's better than throwing them away! Besides, I bet they could get more than 99 cents for many of them. If they don't put them out, they are garunteeing they won't sell them. I suppose it's also possible that they actually do get more printers and monitors than cpus. Thinking about it now, I gave Goodwill about 3 or 4 printers last year, but no cpus. They do have cpus sometimes, but they're usually old store bought PC's or very old no name PCs, or older Macs. I haven't seen a Microchannel PS/2 or an Apple // in a long time. I've never seen anything like a Vax or Sun equipment at Goodwill. They always seem to have a few old crappy monitors..... do they breed? I've found a few nicer ones. In fact, this 17" Dell with Trinitron tube came from Goodwill. It was $30. I also got my HP LJ 4L from Goodwill. It was only $5, with manual, and in nice shape! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, > mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay high > disposal fees. > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 22 13:15:31 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:15:31 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> Message-ID: <00c501c52f13$85872d80$42406b43@66067007> It must be the area you live in, I have gotten Sun's, Next's, Vax, HP's, AS400's and missed on some SOL's plus a few other S100 systems at my local Goodwill. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" <"Discussion at internet1.net"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > My local Goodwill stores still have some computer stuff. However, I > notice lots of printers, and monitors. I suspect they are tossing many of > the actual computers. I asked one of the employees about it. He said > they they could only sell them for about 99 cents..... I'm thinking that's > better than throwing them away! Besides, I bet they could get more than > 99 cents for many of them. If they don't put them out, they are > garunteeing they won't sell them. > > I suppose it's also possible that they actually do get more printers and > monitors than cpus. Thinking about it now, I gave Goodwill about 3 or 4 > printers last year, but no cpus. They do have cpus sometimes, but they're > usually old store bought PC's or very old no name PCs, or older Macs. I > haven't seen a Microchannel PS/2 or an Apple // in a long time. I've never > seen anything like a Vax or Sun equipment at Goodwill. > > They always seem to have a few old crappy monitors..... do they breed? > I've found a few nicer ones. In fact, this 17" Dell with Trinitron tube > came from Goodwill. It was $30. I also got my HP LJ 4L from Goodwill. It > was only $5, with manual, and in nice shape! > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, >> mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay high >> disposal fees. >> > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Mar 22 13:19:17 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:19:17 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: <52f061152f4851.52f485152f0611@optonline.net> > John Keys wrote: > It must be the area you live in, I have gotten Sun's, Next's, Vax, > HP's, AS400's and missed on some SOL's plus a few other > S100 systems at my local Goodwill. Getting ready to move to wherever John Lives.... which would be???? From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 22 13:24:50 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:24:50 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <52f061152f4851.52f485152f0611@optonline.net> Message-ID: <00dc01c52f14$d2ec7390$42406b43@66067007> I'm in Houston and the local Salvation Army auctions off computers 5 days a week at their warehouse. I stopped going because the prices and the number of people coming to get computers was too high. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill >> John Keys wrote: >> It must be the area you live in, I have gotten Sun's, Next's, Vax, >> HP's, AS400's and missed on some SOL's plus a few other >> S100 systems at my local Goodwill. > > Getting ready to move to wherever John Lives.... which would be???? > > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Mar 22 13:23:45 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:23:45 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050322110742.052d6f00@mail> References: <423F08B0.3010206@oldskool.org> <6.2.1.2.2.20050322110742.052d6f00@mail> Message-ID: <424070C1.5070306@internet1.net> John Foust wrote: > I think all of these places suffer > (from out collecting perspective) from subjective or uninformed policies > about all goods - not just computer stuff. I can agree with that. > > I see some charity shops run by senior-citizen volunteers around here who > routinely toss what they consider to be "junk" (like old household goods) > yet would fetch a good price if they marketed them correctly. I routinely > see graniteware (speckled-paint metal pans) and other 100-year-plus tin > items in the dumpster. Meanwhile, they're trying to sell 15-year-old > mono monitors for $15. Sometimes older people don't understand that something that was common or low cost when they were young, is hard to find and worth something now. My grandmother had an small dining room table that she used as a computer desk. The computer was useed solely for a database of customer names for her mail order business. She mostly retired from it, and no longer wanted the table. I wanted it, and she said I could have it. It's wood... veneered, but still all wood, probably from the 30's or 40's, I'm guessing. When my friend and I went to pick it up, it took a little bit of manuvering to get it out of the house. My grandmother suggested several times that I really didn't need it, and that we could just cut it up with a chainsaw, burn it, and that would take care of that. She now has a smaller made in China plastic table in it's place. I think things that she sees as a hassle or difficult, she thinks is a hassle or difficult for anybody. She sort of projects her feelings toward something on other people, and evaluates the situation from there. I love her, but she frustrates me too no end somethinge :-) Oh well, the table is in my basement now. When I get finished refinsihing the top it's coming upstairs. It will be my new computer desk...... with room for my scanner, unlike my current set up. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Tue Mar 22 13:36:46 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:36:46 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <00dc01c52f14$d2ec7390$42406b43@66067007> References: <52f061152f4851.52f485152f0611@optonline.net> <00dc01c52f14$d2ec7390$42406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <424073CE.5090207@internet1.net> Wow, that would be cool! My local Salvation Army just has PC's at too high a price. They don't seem to be carrying many any more. Although, they don't seem to be carrying much of anything but cloths right now. That could be driven by the fact that they are about to open a new much larger store very soon, so they could be holding back merchandise at the warehouse so they don't have to move it 3 times. I say three time, since they always move the stuff twice. For some reason, they ship all the donations to the out of town warehouse for pricing and distribution... even big stuff like furniture. Seems very inefficient to me. Unless maybe it's a space issue. The back room in the current store is tiny. I feel like a dork, for being excited about the opening of the new store on April 2nd :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Keys wrote: > I'm in Houston and the local Salvation Army auctions off computers 5 > days a week at their warehouse. I stopped going because the prices and > the number of people coming to get computers was too high. From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 14:20:14 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:20:14 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <424073CE.5090207@internet1.net> References: <52f061152f4851.52f485152f0611@optonline.net> <00dc01c52f14$d2ec7390$42406b43@66067007> <424073CE.5090207@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:36:46 -0500, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I'm in Houston and the local Salvation Army auctions off computers 5 > > days a week at their warehouse. I stopped going because the prices and > > the number of people coming to get computers was too high. > Wow, that would be cool! My local Salvation Army just has PC's at too > high a price. They don't seem to be carrying many any more. Although, > they don't seem to be carrying much of anything but cloths right now. > since they always move the stuff twice. For some reason, they ship all > the donations to the out of town warehouse for pricing and > distribution... even big stuff like furniture. Seems very inefficient Speaking as a Goodwill employee, I can tell you that a lot of these places don't exist to make money per se. Instead, the focus is often on providing as many jobs for as many kinds of disadvantaged people as possible. If we can break even and employ 30 people, or turn a small profit and employ 20, we're going to choose the "less efficient" way every time. This is doubly true when we can provide a sheltered, supervised workshop environment (such as your "out of town factory") to people who cannot by themselves hold a job or interact with others socially. To remain somewhat on topic: what would the list recommend for teaching people who've never touched a computer how to distinguish at a glance between "junk" and "stuff"? I'd like to turn computing paraphenalia into a bigger revenue stream, but it's always an educational issue. Currently my method is to have them save anything that looks like a "computer" or a "monitor" that they can't cover diagonally with both hands stretched out side by side (approx. 18" diagonal). Printers, scanners, speakers, joysticks, keyboards, mice, cuecats... I just don't know how to deal with by proxy. I know for a fact I've lost several "video games" such as a Vic20 and an Odyssey this way, as well as about 10 Sun pizza boxes. On the bright side, I've refurbished most of the office machines at Goodwill with scrounged parts, and managed to sell a few complete systems as well. -dhbarr. From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Mar 22 14:45:11 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:45:11 -0700 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <00c501c52f13$85872d80$42406b43@66067007> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <00c501c52f13$85872d80$42406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <424083D7.3020306@theriver.com> > Keys wrote: > >> It must be the area you live in, I have gotten Sun's, Next's, Vax, >> HP's, AS400's and missed on some SOL's plus a few other S100 systems >> at my local Goodwill. John > Not only where you live, as many corporations get rid off thier old equipment to liquidaters or, if they don't take them, then to the goodwill,. etc.. So if you live in a fairly large city you'll not only see donations from individuals, but also companies and corporations. If you are going "goodwill hunting", then I suggest try going directly to the main warehouse/sorting facility for your area. Many cities with lots of goodwill stores have a central warehouse. At the warehouse is where larger donations (in some case , all donations) are sorted. Here in Tucson the warehouse is in an industrial area, and large lots are commonly sold through auctions or bulk buying. Where you might see one to a dozen computers or electronic goods at one store, here there will be hundreds and even thousands of computers along with the peripherals. I've picked up a microvaxII, various suns, even ultra's as well as P3's. While the old unix and apple equipment will go real cheap, there is lively bidding for anything above a pentium2 or G3. A corporation dumped about 100 P3's on the goodwill warehouse a few months ago and were gone inside an hour. mainly to one bidder Check for the Salvation Army or Goodwill warehouse nearest you and see if and when they have there auctions and or bulk buying. The good stuff never even reaches the local goodwill stores. Cheers Tom > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" > > To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" > <"Discussion at internet1.net"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > > >> My local Goodwill stores still have some computer stuff. However, I >> notice lots of printers, and monitors. I suspect they are tossing >> many of the actual computers. I asked one of the employees about >> it. He said they they could only sell them for about 99 cents..... >> I'm thinking that's better than throwing them away! Besides, I bet >> they could get more than 99 cents for many of them. If they don't >> put them out, they are garunteeing they won't sell them. >> >> I suppose it's also possible that they actually do get more printers >> and monitors than cpus. Thinking about it now, I gave Goodwill about >> 3 or 4 printers last year, but no cpus. They do have cpus sometimes, >> but they're usually old store bought PC's or very old no name PCs, or >> older Macs. I haven't seen a Microchannel PS/2 or an Apple // in a >> long time. I've never seen anything like a Vax or Sun equipment at >> Goodwill. >> >> They always seem to have a few old crappy monitors..... do they >> breed? I've found a few nicer ones. In fact, this 17" Dell with >> Trinitron tube came from Goodwill. It was $30. I also got my HP LJ >> 4L from Goodwill. It was only $5, with manual, and in nice shape! >> >> Chad Fernandez >> Michigan, USA >> >> >> >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >>> Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, >>> mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay >>> high >>> disposal fees. >>> >> >> > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Mar 22 14:48:41 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:48:41 -0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503222046.j2MKkTwh024829@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 22 March 2005 15:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > > Yeah, and I have a //gs SIGNED BY WOZ!! L@@K R at RE!!! I have a ][GS that really WAS signed by the man himself. He also dedicated it to the previous owner on the inside of the lid..... The previous owner, I should add, used to run an apple history website for several years in the 90s.... a From gsarno at nortel.com Tue Mar 22 10:56:41 2005 From: gsarno at nortel.com (Giuseppe Sarno) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:56:41 +0100 Subject: Xerox 820 documentation. Message-ID: <588B15E2E2B1D41180B800508BF934F218BACC49@bmdhd6.europe.nortel.com> Re-sending as error reported: Sorry if you got it twice. Hi , Thanks for your answer. I should now have a disk with the system and PIP (I don't know whether it would boot though, I haven't tested it yet) Anyway I was looking at how I could use PIP to transfer the data but I only managed to find some examples Using the AUX: connector which I think is CP/M 3 (+) and not 2.2 which is the version on the 820. Do you know more on how I can use the PIP command ? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwight.elvey at amd.com] Sent: 16 March 2005 23:04 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: Sarno, Giuseppe [MOP:GM15:EXCH] Subject: Re: Xerox 820 documentation. >From: "Giuseppe Sarno" > >Hi I own an Old Xerox 820 machine, >Can anyone help to find documentation for it ? >Also is there a way to download programs onto it using the >serial/parallel port ? > >I have seen some info at >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002642.html > >but I couldn't find more. > >Thanks. > Hi You didn't mention if you have a disk that boots and has PIP under CP/M on it. If you do, you can transfer information as ASCII like a BASIC source program or even transfer .COM files by first converting them to .HEX files and then using DDT on the 820 to move them to .COM files. If you are attempting to bootstrap with no disk, you'll have to check with others. One may be able to do it if it has a built in debug monitor. Of course, on can always write some of ones own code and replace one of the internal EPROMs. It is not as impossible as it sounds. You just have to explore a little. Dwight From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Mar 22 13:54:52 2005 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:54:52 -0500 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF39A@mail10.congressfinancial.com> ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. First Vice President Wachovia Capital Finance 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) Does someone have this available as a PDF? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller I wrote: >> You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe >> Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. Sellam wrote: > While that's a good book, it has nothing on the disk controller. See > my previous message for a better selection. Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The Disk Controller". And pages 9-1 through 9-45 seem to give a detailed explanation of how it works. But I guess this must just be a particularly strange side effect of the drugs that I'm not taking. >> The bits shift in from the right, and there's no counter. The only >> way you can tell that the complete "nybble" has been read is that the >> MSB of the shift register is set. > How...lame. There's a specific number of cycles that it takes to assemble > an 8-bit byte. No, there aren't. The disk drive operates asynchronously to the computer, and motor speed variations of both the drive that wrote the disk and the drive that's reading it affect it a lot. > Why can't one just go off this timing to determine when a > full byte is read? And if this is possible, then does that mean that one > can really store a byte that doesn't have the MSB set, and subsequently > read it back? Not reliably. > I see. And this is where I'm confused. Beneath Apple DOS shows diagrams > that indicate there's a clock pulse between every data bit. So either > that diagram is wrong, and there are no clock pulses, The authors of Beneath Apple DOS had no clue whatsoever as to what was going on at that level, so they apparently just assumed that it worked the same as other disk controllers in that regard. There are no clock bits. That's the whole point of GCR. Fortunately they understood the higher-level stuff, so the rest of the book is much more accurate. > According to my reading (in Beneath Apple DOS), you can only have *one > pair* of consecutive zeros in any one byte, but it was not clear if that > was a hardware constraint or an artificial constraint to pare down the > number of "legal" values. Artificial constraint. The hardware (w/ the 16 sector state machine) can deal with any nybble that has the MSB set, and no more than two consecutive zeros. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 22 15:28:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:28:43 +0000 Subject: Getting into debugger on Apollo machines Message-ID: <1111526923.24576.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Before I go insane, can someone tell me the magic key sequence used to get into the mnemonic debugger at startup on Apollo machines? (Specifically a 425t, but I expect it's the same sequence on all flavours) I managed it - once, after much random tapping, and thought it was a simple double return that did it. Made the mistake of rebooting so I could move the machine to a more useful position, then discovered that it *wasn't* a double return. Nothing in the manuals (install / owner's guide, anyway) saying how to do it - they only mention how to do it from a machine that's already booted into the OS. The machine's sitting there trying to load across the network when it can't find an OS on local disk, which I don't want it to do - I've put an empty disk in there *because* I want to install an OS on it from local tape. There must be some way to interrupt it in order to get into the debugger. Grrr! (I could pull the token-ring board, but I have a feeling it's trying to boot across the onboard Ethernet anyway, not token-ring, so it wouldn't help) Maybe if I leave it long enough (like, more than the 20 mins I've given it already) it'll time out... cheers Jules From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Tue Mar 22 15:35:17 2005 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:35:17 +0100 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype Message-ID: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> Hi folks, I am currently modifying my Teletype ASR33 into a LT33 according to the DEC specifications to work with my PDP-8/L. Does someone know what is a Thyractor (GE 6RS20SP4B4) ? Some kind of voltage clamping device ?. How could I make one, using, for instance a pair of thyristors or a pair of zenner diodes ? Many thanks,. Philippe Sonnet From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 15:57:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:57:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > >> You want the book "The Apple II Circuit Description", or "The Apple IIe > >> Circuit Description", by Winston Gayler. > > Sellam wrote: > > While that's a good book, it has nothing on the disk controller. See > > my previous message for a better selection. > > Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in > front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The > Disk Controller". And pages 9-1 through 9-45 seem to give a detailed > explanation of how it works. But I guess this must just be a > particularly strange side effect of the drugs that I'm not taking. Yes, the drugs you are taking are so good that you're reading the title of your book, which is "Understanding the Apple II" by Jim Sather, as, "The Apple II Circuit Description". Pass the mushrooms! > > I see. And this is where I'm confused. Beneath Apple DOS shows diagrams > > that indicate there's a clock pulse between every data bit. So either > > that diagram is wrong, and there are no clock pulses, > > The authors of Beneath Apple DOS had no clue whatsoever as to what was > going on at that level, so they apparently just assumed that it worked > the same as other disk controllers in that regard. > > There are no clock bits. That's the whole point of GCR. Ok, this is what I thought. And I haven't read far enough into UNDERSTANDING THE APPLE II to have dispelled that rumor. > Fortunately they understood the higher-level stuff, so the rest of > the book is much more accurate. Right. > > According to my reading (in Beneath Apple DOS), you can only have *one > > pair* of consecutive zeros in any one byte, but it was not clear if that > > was a hardware constraint or an artificial constraint to pare down the > > number of "legal" values. > > Artificial constraint. The hardware (w/ the 16 sector state machine) > can deal with any nybble that has the MSB set, and no more than two > consecutive zeros. Ok, cool. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 15:59:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:59:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <32998.64.169.63.74.1111517897.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > Oh. I suppose I must be hallucinating when I look at this copy in > > front of me. The table of contents lists chapter 9 as being "The > > Disk Controller". > > Yes, I was in fact hallucinating. I grabbed the wrong book. Haha :) Anyway, _The Apple II Circuit Description_ was the first book I thought of and looked at, but was somewhat dismayed to find it didn't have anything on the disk controller. I only found _Understanding the Apple II_ because it was sitting there on the shelf right next to my copy of _Beneath Apple DOS_ ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 16:09:55 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:09:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not sure what to go for? My requirements would be 1) It has to be a 70's design 2) It needs to be reasonably compact 3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' with a c compiler as an option. 4) My budget is not huge <$1000 Any recommendations? Cheers Ian. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 16:10:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:10:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, David H. Barr wrote: > To remain somewhat on topic: what would the list recommend for > teaching people who've never touched a computer how to distinguish at > a glance between "junk" and "stuff"? I'd like to turn computing > paraphenalia into a bigger revenue stream, but it's always an > educational issue. Currently my method is to have them save anything > that looks like a "computer" or a "monitor" that they can't cover > diagonally with both hands stretched out side by side (approx. 18" > diagonal). Hi David. I have a great suggestion for you: arrange for the head corporate office to purchase 100 copies of Michael Nadeau's price guide: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764316001/qid=1111529326/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-8585115-5005562?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 ...and ship them to 100 stores around the country. Have each store use the guide to pick out highly valued computers and put them on the shelves for sale. Then keep track of how many of them actually sell. At the end of a trial period (say 6 weeks), see if the additional income pays for the 100 copies of the book (they can order direct from the publisher for a volume discount). Seriously. It would be a win-win for everyone. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 22 16:14:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:14:31 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Control Data 160-A, 8090 or 8092 In-Reply-To: <423FC273.8020700@ix.netcom.com> References: <423FC273.8020700@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <424098C7.1090302@atarimuseum.com> Billy, Let me know how you do so far as CDC resources, I am also looking for a small CDC system, but most importantly I'd like to find spares and replacement parts for my CDC-97xx's Curt Billy Pettit wrote: > Now that I have the time, I would love to restore a 160-A. I'm in the > market for CDC systems or parts of that vintage. > > Any one on this list have any of the computers, paper tape equiment or > typewriter? Numbers like 161, 162, 168, 169, 350, 8090, 808X,etc. > > I know that the Museum in Mountain View has one, but they have indicated > they are not ready to restore it yet. > > Any one know where there are some other dealers or individuals who > might have these systems? > > Billy Pettit > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 16:15:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not > sure what to go for? My requirements would be > > 1) It has to be a 70's design > 2) It needs to be reasonably compact > 3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > with a c compiler as an option. > 4) My budget is not huge <$1000 > > Any recommendations? PDP 11/03 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 22 16:23:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:23:30 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an 80's system, hmmmmm.... Curt silvercreekvalley wrote: >I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not >sure what to go for? My requirements would be > >1) It has to be a 70's design >2) It needs to be reasonably compact >3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > with a c compiler as an option. >4) My budget is not huge <$1000 > >Any recommendations? > >Cheers > >Ian. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 16:28:44 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45345.64.139.41.130.1111530524.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Ian > I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not > sure what to go for? My requirements would be > > 1) It has to be a 70's design > 2) It needs to be reasonably compact > 3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > with a c compiler as an option. > 4) My budget is not huge <$1000 > > Any recommendations? The PDP-11/34 is a fairly compact 1970s design and can run 7th Edition Unix. "budget is not huge" is the sticking point. If you get lucky, maybe you'll find someone giving away a suitable system. If you have to buy it piece by piece, (CPU, memory, disk controller, disk drive), it most likely will cost far more than $1000. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 16:32:15 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45549.64.139.41.130.1111530735.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Curt wrote: > You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or > a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an > 80's system, hmmmmm.... The 11/83 is a Qbus system. There aren't any "hybrid" systems. You were perhaps thinking of the 11/84 and 11/94 Unibus systems, which use the same CPU modules as the 11/83 and 11/93 Qbus systems. But when those modules are used in the 11/84 and 11/94 backplane, there is *NOT* a Qbus present. There is a somewhat-Qbus-like bus, but it is not compatible with Qbus either electrically or in terms of bus protocol. Anyhow, none of those meet the "70's design" criteria Ian specified. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 16:32:15 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <45549.64.139.41.130.1111530735.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Curt wrote: > You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or > a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an > 80's system, hmmmmm.... The 11/83 is a Qbus system. There aren't any "hybrid" systems. You were perhaps thinking of the 11/84 and 11/94 Unibus systems, which use the same CPU modules as the 11/83 and 11/93 Qbus systems. But when those modules are used in the 11/84 and 11/94 backplane, there is *NOT* a Qbus present. There is a somewhat-Qbus-like bus, but it is not compatible with Qbus either electrically or in terms of bus protocol. Anyhow, none of those meet the "70's design" criteria Ian specified. Eric From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 22 16:37:13 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:37:13 -0000 Subject: Which PDP? References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <00d101c52f2f$b22896a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or > a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an > 80's system, hmmmmm.... > > Curt > the /45 and /55 are Unibus machines............ You could try a PDP 11/34, or do you want the classic "lights and switches" front panel? Jim. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 22 16:44:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:44:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <00d101c52f2f$b22896a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> <00d101c52f2f$b22896a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <46761.64.139.41.130.1111531472.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Jim wrote: > the /45 and /55 are Unibus machines............ Not compact, though. They take up about half of a DEC rack for just the CPU and memory (no peripherals). Eric From drb at msu.edu Tue Mar 22 16:45:25 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:45:25 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:28:44 PST.) <45345.64.139.41.130.1111530524.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <45345.64.139.41.130.1111530524.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200503222245.j2MMjP36027798@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > "budget is not huge" is the sticking point. If you get lucky, maybe > you'll find someone giving away a suitable system. If you have to buy > it piece by piece, (CPU, memory, disk controller, disk drive), it > most likely will cost far more than $1000. It's doable, I think. An 11/34A CPU box with cards, power supply, some cables, programmer's front panel, untested, just went on eBay for $203 a few minutes ago. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7501604120 Assuming it turns out to be reasonably working, you'd need additional cables (I'm guessing, but seems a good bet), and disk drives. De From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Mar 22 17:32:08 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Except that such stores don't really exist over this side of the pond > > any more - they've all been forbidden from selling electrical goods by > > the health & safety morons (as in "Oh my God, it plugs into the wall - > > that's *dangerous* and someone might sue us"). > > > > Actually, given that our current stupid compensation culture seems to > > have jumped the pond from the US, I'm quite surprised such places exist > > over there too. > > Charity shops in the US are increasingly not carrying computer goods, > mainly because if they end up being unsaleable crap they have to pay high > disposal fees. I'm seeing this here in our area as well. Salvation Army policy is "no computers" since early this year. Steve From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Mar 22 17:44:43 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:44:43 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4240ADEB.3020806@compsys.to> >silvercreekvalley wrote: >I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not >sure what to go for? My requirements would be >1) It has to be a 70's design >2) It needs to be reasonably compact >3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > with a c compiler as an option. >4) My budget is not huge <$1000 >Any recommendations? > > Jerome Fine replies: If I am not mistaken, the PDP-11/23 might have been released just before 1980. It would have arrived in cabinet containing 2 RL02 drives. If the PDP-11/23 arrived a bit later, then the PDP-11/03 would likely qualify instead. Most likely, you can find someone who is running out of space and wants to discard their RL02 drives and cabinet if you are patient. The question is how you are going to use the system and why 1979 is a cutoff? If you can allow models into the mid 1980s, then a much smaller PDP-11/73 in a BA23 box using 5 1/4" hard drives or even SCSI drives (although a Qbus host adapter is usually still expensive). What are you reasons for the 1979 cutoff and how will you use the PDP-11? You will probably need a VT100 as the terminal, although that may also not qualify in which case a VT52 would be OK. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Mar 22 17:48:58 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:48:58 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <52f061152f4851.52f485152f0611@optonline.net> <00dc01c52f14$d2ec7390$42406b43@66067007> <424073CE.5090207@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4240AEEA.6050209@internet1.net> David H. Barr wrote: > Currently my method is to have them save anything > that looks like a "computer" or a "monitor" that they can't cover > diagonally with both hands stretched out side by side (approx. 18" > diagonal). I don't get it.... what does covering with both hands diagonally do? > > Printers, scanners, speakers, joysticks, keyboards, mice, cuecats... I > just don't know how to deal with by proxy. I know for a fact I've lost > several "video games" such as a Vic20 and an Odyssey this way, as well > as about 10 Sun pizza boxes. On the bright side, I've refurbished > most of the office machines at Goodwill with scrounged parts, and > managed to sell a few complete systems as well. When you say lost, what do you mean..... it went into the dumpster? Why can't all of it go onto the sales floor? It seems to me that as long as it doesn't have razor blades sticking out of it, there's no harm in at least trying to sell something. If it's a questionable item, as far as, a sale goes, pull it after a few days, or lower the price. If it doesn't work give the buyer 7 days to return it, as long as it they have a receipt. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 18:06:47 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Thanks for the suggestions. The 79 cutoff is really because I have a modest but working collection of machines from 1980-1990 (UNIX workstations) so I've got that covered. I thought I'd turn my attention to pre 1980's hardware before it becomes really difficult to track down and PDP is probably the obvious choice. The 11/34 looks a good choice at this stage? Regards Ian. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Mar 22 18:07:33 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:07:33 -0500 Subject: New Find: Tektronix 4052 +++ Message-ID: <200503230007.j2N07Xc30470@drs-c4i.com> > Nice. We've got one of those 4631 hardcopy units, but nobody with any > knowledge about them (is there any particular Tek they're supposed to be > used with?) > I used a 4052 many years ago with the dual floppy. I think the 46x1 devices are all compatible. The one 4611 that was around back then printed a different size image than the 4631's. They should work with a 4010-1 or later storage tube terminal. They also has 613 monitors that they would also work with. I have a 4631 sort of. I purchased is as that and thats what the plate says but somebody put the 4632 video interface board in it so I can't use it with my 4010-1. Anybody have a junk 4631 I could get the board from? Or a 46x1 they don't want? >any way to get the consumables for these. I recall some special roll of >paper, plus a liquid fixing material. didnt they come out wet? > The 46x1 used dry silver paper which was exposed by the single line CRT in the hard copy unit then developed with heat. The I think the 3m 7?? silver paper will also work. Tek number may be 006-1603. The stuff has a shelf life so you probable won't get good copies with the old stuff from ebay etc I haven't been able to try my out of date roll. I don't know if anybody still makes the paper but a new roll used to be >$100. It was also used for microfiche printers. From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 22 18:10:04 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:10:04 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: Message-ID: <00f401c52f3c$a9d37d00$3a92a8c0@maggie> 11/03 ? forget it . no mmu - won't run real (v6,7) unix.. a 34 might be a better bet. Wasn't the 35 small-packaged 40/45? heinz Selllam wrote: >> Re: Which PDP? >> > On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, silvercreekvalley wrote: > > > I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not > > sure what to go for? My requirements would be > > > > 1) It has to be a 70's design > > 2) It needs to be reasonably compact > > 3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > > with a c compiler as an option. > > 4) My budget is not huge <$1000 > > > > Any recommendations? > > PDP 11/03 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 22 18:13:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:13:45 +0000 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> References: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1111536825.24576.102.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-22 at 16:06 -0800, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I have a modest but working > collection of machines from 1980-1990 (UNIX > workstations) so I've got that covered. Anything interesting? (by interesting I mean strange / unusual - I'm sure they're all interesting to you or you wouldn't have them!) Good luck with the PDP hunt! cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 17:52:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:52:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) In-Reply-To: <64149.64.139.41.130.1111454133.squirrel@64.139.41.130> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 21, 5 05:15:33 pm Message-ID: > (And they are relatively expensive.) Tantalum capacitors will fail > in a particularly spectacular fashion if reverse-biased. One day > when we arrived at work, there was a 3/4-inch hole burned through our > multi-thousand-dollar prototype PCB, and a charred spot on the > workbench below it. Although there was not enough evidence left to > prove it, we believe that a tantalum capacitor had been installed > backwards. May not have been.... I've had tantalum capacitors 'go up' for no good reason, they burn spectacularly give off a large cloud of smoke, and often the remains on the boasrd is glwoing red-hot at the end. When I say 'no good reason', I mean I've had PCBs that have been used for say 5 years, then stuck on the shelf for a few months, then they go up a day or so after putting the board back in service. They certainly weren't fitted backwards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 18:00:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:00:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New Find: Tektronix 4052 +++ In-Reply-To: <1111497536.24242.15.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Mar 22, 5 01:18:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-03-22 at 07:52 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > > My Tektronix magnetism is still working. Yesterday I got a call from one > > of my sources to tell me that they had a new load of stuff but they added > > that they thought it was all "crap". Went out there anyway and they first > > thing that I found was a Tektronix 4052 computer :-). Dug a little further > > and found a Tektronix 4631 Hardcopy unit and two Tektronix 8" disk drives > > :-) :-) :-) > > Nice. We've got one of those 4631 hardcopy units, but nobody with any > knowledge about them (is there any particular Tek they're supposed to be > used with?) If it's the one I am thinking of, it connects up via a DA15 cable. It should work with any Tekky storage terminal (or 4051, 4052, which are based on storage termainals), although I think for some systems the hard copy connector (and a little PCB inside with some electronics on it) was actually an option that may not be installed. The hard copu unit contains a sepecial 1-dimensional CRT (if you see what I mean ;-). The image on the storage target in the terminal is read out by raster-scanning it (!), and fed to said CRT. A piece of sensitised paper is moved past the front of the CRT, and thus the image is built up on the paper. There's some chemical fixing and heat drying too, but that's not too complicated. I seem to rememebr the main problem is getting -- and affording -- the special paper. > > We've got a 4052, but the faceplate's smashed. I've not investigated > whether it's just a piece of coloured glass / perspex (and so easily > replaceable) or whether it's far more serious and may write off the > whole unit :-( What ever you do, don't throw out _any_ 405x parts. There are people looking for spares, options, etc. That said, the front plate is just plastic. If the CRT is OK, it can be replaced. It _is_ the implosion guard for the CRT, so take care! If the CRT is damaged, you may well find one from a 4000-series storage terminal will work. -tony From rickb at bensene.com Tue Mar 22 18:26:38 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:26:38 -0800 Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <20050318151317.C7F942C002@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20050323002638.CA7BE2C00A@pail.bensene.com> OK, some time back I wrote about a couple of RK05J drives that I have, which were connected up to a PDP 8/e, via RK8E. A few folks wrote back and said that the drive had to be connected to a controller to come up. Not so. It won't "READY" a disk, but it has enough brains locally to fire up the blower motor, light the LOAD light, unlock the drive door to allow a cartridge to be put in, and once a cart is inserted, allows it to be spun up, but the heads will never load and the drive will never go READY without the controller attached. Last time everything was powered up (over a year ago), though I was having problems with the RK8E, the drives worked fine. They powered up, blower motors ran, and you could load a cartridege, spin it up, and the drive would go ready. I could issue seeks and reads and writes...but there'd be data errors when doing so, as it appears that there's a stuck bit somewhere in the RK8E. All that aside, it's been a little over a year, and I've pulled the machine out of storage and am in the process of trying to get it back into running condition. The 8/e seems happy. I powered it up over a long period of time with a Variac, watching the main supply voltages come up, and all went well. The 2 4K core planes seem to be fine, and the 16K solid state RAM board also seems fine. I can exam/deposit stuff, toggle in small programs (light chasers, etc.), and they work fine, and reliably over time. The problem is the RK05's. I've disconnected them from the RK8E, have installed the terminator card in one drive. I power it up, and the blower motor doesn't start. But, the POWER and LOAD lights light up on the front panel, and the drive door unlocks with a clunk. I've checked all the power supply voltages (+15, -15, +5) under load, and they all are within spec, with minimal ripple. The "CONTROL & INTERLOCK" board in the electronics package in the drive has the circuitry that controls the blower motor. There is a "safety" relay which gets pulled in when all of the DC power supplies are good, which is done by some circuitry on this board. The result is a "DC OK" signal, which is active when the drive is powered up. A derivative of this signal drives a driver that energizes the "Safety Relay", which has multiple contacts. One set of contacts applies power to the blower motor, and others do things like dump the charge in the NiCd battery pack into the head windings to do the emergency head retract when power dies. I've traced the circuitry from the DC OK signal generated on the CONTROL & INTERLOCK board, all the way through the harnesses and to the relay, and from the relay to the motor, and all are healthy. The safety relay does pull in as expected when he unit is powered up. However, the blower motor will not run. I've checked the relay contacts...they are fine. 120VAC is present on two of the three wires that go into the blower motor. There is a 5uf motor start capacitor that, from what I can tell, seems fine. But...the motor doesn't spin. The funny part is that both RK05's act this way. I'm puzzled. The motors aren't seized -- they spin very freely. I've put an ohmmeter across the windings of the motor and there are no shorts or opens. I'm really stumped! Could the start capacitor be bad? I don't know much about how these types of AC motors work. I swapped the start capacitor with one from another "parts hulk" drive that I have, and it didn't make any difference. Any ideas, anyone? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 22 18:24:55 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:24:55 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <00f401c52f3c$a9d37d00$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: > 11/03 ? forget it . no mmu - won't run real (v6,7) unix.. > a 34 might be a better bet. Wasn't the 35 small-packaged 40/45? > heinz The 11/35 is the same CPU as the 11/40, and it did come in a 10 1/2" chassis as an option, but the CPU card set is *quite difficult* to find spares for. The standard 10 1/2" chassis isn't set up to hold a lot. I have one that is sickly and it has a CPU backplane, an early 9-slot core memory backplane, and a 4-slot core memory backplane. Even if you tried to replace the core memory backplanes with a standard unibus backplane such as the DD11-DK so you could use more modern MOS memory and add an RL02 controller or something like that, you could not plug the backplane into the power supply without reworking the power supply connectors. The old blinking lights PDP-11s are not easy to come by, and if you do find one you will likely have to pay lots of $$$$ for it. I think an 11/34 is a better choice if you want a 70s model PDP-11 to start out with. I actually have a spare 11/34A that I might be interested in selling once I fix what I believe is a power supply problem. Spares for the 11/34 are also fairly obtainable. Ashley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 18:37:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:37:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <20050323002638.CA7BE2C00A@pail.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 22, 5 04:26:38 pm Message-ID: > a cartridge to be put in, and once a cart is inserted, allows it to be spun > up, but > the heads will never load and the drive will never go READY without the > controller > attached. Are you sure? It's been a long time since I've done this, but I thought an '05 would load the heads without a controller connecteed, provided there's a pack installed, power is good, etc. > The safety relay does pull in as expected when he unit is powered up. OK, so far, so good. > However, the blower motor will not run. I've checked > the relay contacts...they are fine. 120VAC is present on two of the > three wires that go into the blower motor. There is a 5uf motor start > capacitor that, from what I can tell, seems fine. But...the motor > doesn't spin. The funny part is that both RK05's act this way. > I'm puzzled. The motors aren't seized -- they spin very freely. > I've put an ohmmeter across the windings of the motor and there > are no shorts or opens. > > I'm really stumped! Could the start capacitor be bad? I don't know Could well be. It's actually a 'run' capacitor I think (there's no starting relay for the blower motor). Baiscally, the motor has 2 windings. One is directly across the 120V AC input. The other has the capacitor in series, 120V AC across the lot. The result is that the currents in the 2 windings are not in phase with each other (due to the capacitor in series with one of them). These windings magnetise alternate poles in the motors stator, so you get 2 out-of-phase magnetic fields in the stator, which appears a a 'revolving' magnetic field. In effect the rotor is dragged round by this field (yes, this is a simplification, but it should give an idea as to what's going on). > much about how these types of AC motors work. I swapped the start > capacitor with one from another "parts hulk" drive that I have, and > it didn't make any difference. > > Any ideas, anyone? What I would do now : Remove a blower (disconnect the 3 leads at the barrier strip, undo the 4 allen-head screws hoding it in place, take it out. Strip it down. THe ring round the intake comes off by some self-tapping screws under the foam. Then the impeller comes out by undoing the setscrew. Then a coupleof nuts to hold the motor to tbe blower housing. The motor also comes aaprt (4 little metal clips). Pull out the rotor and bearings. Look at the windings. Damaged insulation is, alas, common on these motors. Shorted turns will mess things up, alas. It's then put the motor back together and wire it up on the bench with the staring capapcitor. Try powering it up. Measure the voltages across the 2 windgs (one should be 120V, the other somewhat less due to the capacitor, but certainly not zero). Try a new capacitor if you can get one. Capacitors do go off, even when not in use. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 18:54:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:54:34 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> References: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:06:47 -0800 (PST), silvercreekvalley wrote: > I thought I'd turn my attention to pre 1980's > hardware before it becomes really difficult > to track down and PDP is probably the obvious > choice. For 1970s PDPs, the easiest to aquire would be something in a PDP-11 or PDP-8. Since you want a unix-like OS with a C compiler, that pretty much pushes out the -8. > The 11/34 looks a good choice at this stage? 11/34s are among the cheapest PDP-11s from the 1970s (presuming you don't get a haul-it-away deal). The CPU, memory, and some peripherals fits in one BA-11 cabinet (10.5" tall, 19" wide, rack depth), but one can add a second BA-11 if one really needs more than 3 backplanes. The max memory is 256K (18-bit addressing), which is enough for something like a v7 or a XINU, but would be a bit cramped for 2.9BSD. Disks are probably going to be your biggest problem... the RK05 was a common disk in the 11/34 era, at 2.5MB per drive (4 drives per controller). v7 might fit, but 2.9BSD will be _really_ cramped. RL02s may be easier to locate, but they are 1980s tech essentially, and even at 10MB, are a bit on the small side for UNIXy work (but are great for RT-11, etc.) I never did solve my Unibus disk issue for non-MSCP disks... UDA50s are not impossible to find, but the disks tend towards the heavy side compared to, say, ESDI disks. It matters less to me than it used to, since it's possible now to use MSCP disks with 2.9BSD (formerly, one had to go to 2.11, and that required a split I&D machine, of which I have few). If an 11/23 is not too new (it might be 1979), it's a nice choice because a) it's 22-bit (except for rev A boards)allowing up to 4Mb of RAM, b) it _is_ compact, c) it's expensive, but a Qbus SCSI card is easier to find than a Unibus SCSI card. They are also somewhat common (I got my first one in 1986 for a whopping $300, then used that to do work on a contact that was my bread and butter for two years) An 11/23 w/RLV11 (requires CD-capable backplane) or RLV21 and a couple of RL02s is a nice PDP-11 system, and fits in a 42" tall rack. Not sure you could get all of that for under a grand these days, but it's a place to start. -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 22 19:02:55 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:02:55 -0800 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAF39A@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <4240C03F.E6735A16@msm.umr.edu> I didn't see a few things mentioned in this thread, which may be in the books, but not yet on the list. the disk controller attempted to invent soft sector disks, that is format disks without using the hardware sector markers, or the index mark. It did this all in software. If you have a hardware index mark, you always know where to start counting to calculate the same spot on the track every revolution. Without that you have to have headers written for every sector, and read headers and calculate the sector number before the data starts if the sector is the desired one. This calls for higher performance hardware or firmware than one needs to have with just hard sectoring. Also, there is something that becomes a monster with the hard drives of long ago, which had what was called RF coming up the cable, not data bits, called the write splice, or write problem. old disk drives had various schemes to do seeking, from track to track, but saved a lot of money by only doing a serial data stream to and from the heads (with some restrictions). If you are doing soft sectoring, you have to put your controller logic in the mode to be reading the rf from the drive to sending it in a hurry when your header ended to write the sector. The apple 2 disks could use any type of 5 1/4" media without anything but the format written on it by the formatting program. Remember a lot of media companies tried to jack up the price of goods by having special preformatted disks, and so did the vendors around the time that the apple ][ came into existance. It was a good thing that the apple people at least didnt do this initially, though they learned to do so with hard drives, and continue to this day to make it difficult to use anything but their own drives with system. Jmi "Cini, Richard" wrote: From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 22 19:04:11 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:04:11 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > For 1970s PDPs, the easiest to aquire would be something in a PDP-11 > or PDP-8. Since you want a unix-like OS with a C compiler, that > pretty much pushes out the -8. > > > The 11/34 looks a good choice at this stage? > > 11/34s are among the cheapest PDP-11s from the 1970s (presuming you > don't get a haul-it-away deal). The CPU, memory, and some peripherals > fits in one BA-11 cabinet (10.5" tall, 19" wide, rack depth), but one > can add a second BA-11 if one really needs more than 3 backplanes. > The max memory is 256K (18-bit addressing), which is enough for > something like a v7 or a XINU, but would be a bit cramped for 2.9BSD. > > Disks are probably going to be your biggest problem... the RK05 was a > common disk in the 11/34 era, at 2.5MB per drive (4 drives per > controller). v7 might fit, but 2.9BSD will be _really_ cramped. > RL02s may be easier to locate, but they are 1980s tech essentially, > and even at 10MB, are a bit on the small side for UNIXy work (but are > great for RT-11, etc.) > > I never did solve my Unibus disk issue for non-MSCP disks... UDA50s > are not impossible to find, but the disks tend towards the heavy side > compared to, say, ESDI disks. It matters less to me than it used to, > since it's possible now to use MSCP disks with 2.9BSD (formerly, one > had to go to 2.11, and that required a split I&D machine, of which I > have few). > > If an 11/23 is not too new (it might be 1979), it's a nice choice > because a) it's 22-bit (except for rev A boards)allowing up to 4Mb of > RAM, b) it _is_ compact, c) it's expensive, but a Qbus SCSI card is > easier to find than a Unibus SCSI card. They are also somewhat common > (I got my first one in 1986 for a whopping $300, then used that to do > work on a contact that was my bread and butter for two years) > > An 11/23 w/RLV11 (requires CD-capable backplane) or RLV21 and a couple > of RL02s is a nice PDP-11 system, and fits in a 42" tall rack. Not > sure you could get all of that for under a grand these days, but it's > a place to start. I also have a nice working 11/23 that I'm thinking about selling. I can put it in a short rack with an RL02 drive. It already has the controller for the RL01/RL02 drives, as well as the RX02 controller. It has a multiplexer, so you could run multiple terminals if you wanted to. I can also configure the 11/34A with a DZ11 multiplexer, if you want to run multiple terminals on a unibus machine. If you (or anyone else) is interested in either the 11/34A or the 11/23, contact me off-list. Thanks, Ashley wacarder at usit.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Mar 22 19:10:45 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:10:45 -0800 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <200503222046.j2MKkTwh024829@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4240C215.4071B93D@msm.umr.edu> One thing that Goodwill is starting to do, as I suspect everyone will is to start to refuse CRT donations. Some idiot in the gooverment decided that they are toxic waste, and should not be included in the normal disposal stream so now in CA we cannot simply discard them. This sounds good, but as usual with government solutions was not well thought out. By requiring you to pay a fee to simply dump a CRT that you don't want, you've given the user the choice of being good and paying it, or finding a back yard or vacant lot and tossing it. I predict that now, rather than having people turn them into goodwill on a donation, and having goodwill (and other such places that take in things like this) unwanted systems will now start to appear in places where they can do harm if broken open. I understand that with motor oil and other stuff you wanted to keep it out of the refuse stream, but with most trash areas no days having recycling, you could have dumped it in the recycle bin and had it go thru a center that at least would allow them to be plucked out of the landfill stream. And you could actually pay places like goodwill to take them, and get them ready for recycle by doing such things as breaking out the crt's and electronics and putting them in separate streams of refuse, with only the CRT's going to a special place, since the electronics have much more value. But right now, I don't think that even here in Orange county where there is a pretty enlightened goodwill operation, there is a recycling operation like this going on, as they have had to start refusing them. so, soon you all will discover that you are all horrible hoarders of toxic waste, in line with gun owners who have "arsenals" and will make the headlines when you croak, and your old computers have to be disposed of by unenlighened relatives, who discover that they would have to pay a fortune to dispose of all of them. Jim Adrian Graham wrote: From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 22 19:10:09 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:10:09 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <45549.64.139.41.130.1111530735.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> <45549.64.139.41.130.1111530735.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <4240C1F1.6080900@atarimuseum.com> Eric, Thanks for the clarification, my mistake, I thought my old 11/84 was Uni and Qbus CPU/Bridge in the same system, so I thought it meant it was a dual bus system outside of the Qbus cards in it. Curt Eric Smith wrote: >Curt wrote: > > >>You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or >>a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an >>80's system, hmmmmm.... >> >> > >The 11/83 is a Qbus system. There aren't any "hybrid" systems. > >You were perhaps thinking of the 11/84 and 11/94 Unibus systems, which use >the same CPU modules as the 11/83 and 11/93 Qbus systems. But when those >modules are used in the 11/84 and 11/94 backplane, there is *NOT* a Qbus >present. There is a somewhat-Qbus-like bus, but it is not compatible with >Qbus either electrically or in terms of bus protocol. > >Anyhow, none of those meet the "70's design" criteria Ian specified. > >Eric > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005 From James at jdfogg.com Tue Mar 22 19:32:35 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:32:35 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFB@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I'd like to include a PDP in my collection, but not sure what > to go for? My requirements would be > > 1) It has to be a 70's design > 2) It needs to be reasonably compact > 3) I'd like to run something 'unix like' > with a c compiler as an option. > 4) My budget is not huge <$1000 > > Any recommendations? I'd vote for the 11/23, mostly because it was the last of the 70's (1979), they were produced in large numbers and are compact. Most were built with the (then) brand-new RL02 drives. The design continued for many years and lots of DEC and non-DEC boards are available for neat things like MFM drives large ammounts of memory. I have one I got for free, exactly as pictured here with VT101 and LA36 DecWriter-II printing terminal... http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1979-2.htm The link says Microsoft, but it's Gordon Bells page. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 22 19:49:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:49:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4240C215.4071B93D@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, jim stephens wrote: > Some idiot in the gooverment decided that they are toxic waste, > and should not be included in the normal disposal stream so now > in CA we cannot simply discard them. What "idiot" decided that lead and mercury were toxic to humans and were leeching into the water tables? Probably an informed one. > This sounds good, but as usual with government solutions was not > well thought out. By requiring you to pay a fee to simply dump a > CRT that you don't want, you've given the user the choice of being > good and paying it, or finding a back yard or vacant lot and tossing > it. I predict that now, rather than having people turn them into > goodwill on a donation, and having goodwill (and other such places > that take in things like this) unwanted systems will now start to > appear in places where they can do harm if broken open. Recycling companies in California (and elsewhere) have been charging people to drop off monitors for at least 4 years now. Guess what? People are paying the fees and not bitching. Furthermore, I don't see any televisions or monitors dumped in fields. Your belated prediction hasn't panned out. Most people realize it's for the good of the environment and ultimately their health and well-being. That's surely worth a measley $10, no? The fee was initially instituted by companies when the state declared CRTs as hazardous waste. It took years of bungling for California to finally come up with a plan to reimburse recyclers for their time and expense in recycling CRTs so that consumers could recycle monitors without having to pay a fee. Now, whenever you buy a new computer, you pay an additional recycling fee for the display. In 5 or so years, when you're ready to upgrade or toss the display, you are supposed to just be able to take it somewhere and drop it off. It works kind of in the same way that bottle and can recycling does. Unfortunately, the program is probably not going to work and it's going to take a while to iron out some serious bugs (this is what happens when the morons we "elect" to represent us cave in to special interests rather than acting in the public interest). > And you could actually pay places like goodwill to take them, and > get them ready for recycle by doing such things as breaking out the > crt's and electronics and putting them in separate streams of refuse, > with only the CRT's going to a special place, since the electronics > have much more value. Goodwill and other thrift stores never charged for taking stuff. As we've been discussing, they used to take in computers and monitors but when it started to cost them to dispose of the stuff they couldn't sell they stopped taking them. As far as I know, Goodwill was never in the business of CRT dismantling (although they could and should be in my opinion). Lastly, the CRT (whole and undamaged) is actually more valuable than the electronics. Unless the monitor still works, the electronics are almost worthless. > so, soon you all will discover that you are all horrible hoarders of > toxic waste, in line with gun owners who have "arsenals" and will > make the headlines when you croak, and your old computers have > to be disposed of by unenlighened relatives, who discover that > they would have to pay a fortune to dispose of all of them. I wouldn't be so dramatic. True, they would represent a hassle for someone who had to dispose of them in the event of one's untimely demise. But it's no different than figuring out what to do with any of the contents of one's home when one passes. Some stuff you can sell; some you can throw away at no cost; and other stuff you have to pay to get rid of. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 22 19:47:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:47:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 22, 5 07:54:34 pm Message-ID: > Disks are probably going to be your biggest problem... the RK05 was a > common disk in the 11/34 era, at 2.5MB per drive (4 drives per > controller). v7 might fit, but 2.9BSD will be _really_ cramped. Actaully 8 drives per controller, but even so it's crampped. And 8 RK05 drives take up a heck of a lot of space! > RL02s may be easier to locate, but they are 1980s tech essentially, > and even at 10MB, are a bit on the small side for UNIXy work (but are > great for RT-11, etc.) What abnot the RK06/RK07 (14MB and 28MB per drive repsectively, I think, up to 8 drives per controller). Probably actually 1980's units, but still top-loading demountable drives, 2 platters in the pack (3 data surfaces, 1 servo surface). Electronics is loads of simple chips (TTL, op-amps, etc). If you understand the servo in one of those, you've got somewhere ;-) > If an 11/23 is not too new (it might be 1979), it's a nice choice > because a) it's 22-bit (except for rev A boards)allowing up to 4Mb of > RAM, b) it _is_ compact, c) it's expensive, but a Qbus SCSI card is > easier to find than a Unibus SCSI card. They are also somewhat common > (I got my first one in 1986 for a whopping $300, then used that to do > work on a contact that was my bread and butter for two years) Be aware that the 11/34 (And the 11/35, 11/40, 11/45 that others have recomended) are traditional 1970's designs, all TTL and small PROMs. The 11/23 is an LSI design with the CPU in a few DEC custom ICs. This is a real minus point against the 11/23 for me. -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Mar 22 20:18:13 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: Getting into debugger on Apollo machines References: <1111526923.24576.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000f01c52f4e$92549b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Isn't there a switch for this? I seem to recall older Apollo's had a sort of 'diag / normal' toggle... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Getting into debugger on Apollo machines > > Before I go insane, can someone tell me the magic key sequence used to > get into the mnemonic debugger at startup on Apollo machines? > (Specifically a 425t, but I expect it's the same sequence on all > flavours) > > I managed it - once, after much random tapping, and thought it was a > simple double return that did it. Made the mistake of rebooting so I > could move the machine to a more useful position, then discovered that > it *wasn't* a double return. > > Nothing in the manuals (install / owner's guide, anyway) saying how to > do it - they only mention how to do it from a machine that's already > booted into the OS. > > The machine's sitting there trying to load across the network when it > can't find an OS on local disk, which I don't want it to do - I've put > an empty disk in there *because* I want to install an OS on it from > local tape. There must be some way to interrupt it in order to get into > the debugger. Grrr! > > (I could pull the token-ring board, but I have a feeling it's trying to > boot across the onboard Ethernet anyway, not token-ring, so it wouldn't > help) > > Maybe if I leave it long enough (like, more than the 20 mins I've given > it already) it'll time out... > > cheers > > Jules > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 22 20:28:51 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:28:51 -0600 Subject: Cray Research Inc. - Memorabilia and Brochures Message-ID: <019e01c52f50$0ecca930$42406b43@66067007> Check what went for over $200, I had for awhile at $15. :-( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7142492992&ssPageName=ADME:B:ON:US:4 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 22 20:42:36 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:42:36 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFB@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <013001c52f51$f968f970$3a92a8c0@maggie> Well.. if you're going to go QBUS LSI - why not go all the way and get a usable machine!? forget a low end 11/23 with only 128Kw of ram and for for an 11/73 (or the like) 4 megs ram. a nice small enclosure, can use RQD series controllers and MFM (yuck) drives, KDA50 and DSSI, or better yet SCSI disks. You can get a DELQA ether card, a serial mux and you'll have a modernish unix with TCP/IP & a real PDP11 underneath, without it taking 3KWatts to to run or weigh a ton! ... within your 1K budget! A good place to start might be to pick up a MVII and decserver500 (11/53) Else, a good blinkenlights machine will run you between $600-1200 without much disk... -h somebody wrote: > > Any recommendations? > > I'd vote for the 11/23, mostly because it was the last of the 70's > (1979), they were produced in large numbers and are compact. Most were > built with the (then) brand-new RL02 drives. The design continued for > many years and lots of DEC and non-DEC boards are available for neat > things like MFM drives large ammounts of memory. > > I have one I got for free, exactly as pictured here with VT101 and LA36 > DecWriter-II printing terminal... > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1979-2.htm > > The link says Microsoft, but it's Gordon Bells page. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 22 21:03:43 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:03:43 -0600 Subject: Emailing Woz: (was Re: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4240DC8F.5040003@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mark Firestone wrote: > > > >>I've got the DOS Manual, and I used to have Beneath Apple DOS... If you >>want more detail than that, you might have to email Woz... I mean, he >>designed the whole thing... He may be the only one who knows... >> >>And, being Woz, he might even answer you. >> >> I can vouch that he does answer his email, as of the 4th of this month: -------- Original Message -------- Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 06:32:59 -0800 To: Jim Brain From: Steve Wozniak Subject: Re: FW: I seek a Yes/No answer from the Woz >"Chuck Peddle was so sure of his idea [for a personal computer] >that he allied with Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft and >father of the popular BASIC interpreter, to buy up Apple. This >took place almost at the same time when Commodore bought MOS >Technology. Wozniak and Jobs wanted back then 150,000 dollars >for Apple, but Peddle and Gates could only raise two thirds of >the required funds." > > >http://www.mergetel.com/~blitz/C64/cpeople.html > >I cannot find a secondary source for this tidbit of information, and I >thought Woz might remember if such an encounter of one similar >happened. Unfortunately, this would have been in '77 or so, before the >AppleII, and before or maybe just after Commodore bought MOS Technology, >where Chuck Peddle worked. Ridiculous. We invited Chuck Peddle to uur garage and showed him the Apple ][ prototype. Chuck thought it was pretty good. We went to Commodore and talked primarily with Andre Sousan. We were told that Chuck wanted to do his own thing and that he could do better than us at reaching the cheap needs of customers. Jack Tramiel, the Commodore president, was talked by Chuck into shooting for cheapness. Steve Jobs was trying to talk Commodore into buying the Apple ][ for a large amount, like hundreds of thousands of dollars. I felt weird to hear this because I had done the whole design and very little existed besides that, and I had not been privy to talk of such big numbers. Steve Jobs also wanted Commodore to hire us along with the proposed deal. The deal was never on paper and never concrete, as to how much. We were told that Check Peddle was the instrumental force in passing on this deal. Andre Sousan himself shortly thereafter left Commodore and came to Apple, saying that we had the right (and better) computer. -- Best regards, Steve (ok a new size tv) ```````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur ----------------- I posted to comp.sys.apple2 and comp.sys.cbm. Of course, the note set off a chain: -------- Original Message -------- From: Brian Bagnall To: Subject: Fw: Steve Wozniak Comments Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:20:19 -0600 Hi Jim, I sent Wozniaks comments to Chuck Peddle... and now he wants to contact Wozniak himself to talk about what really happened! That's kind of exciting. In his mind I think he feels he was not responsible for turning down the Apple II. - Brian >Subject: Re: Steve Wozniak Comments > __________________ > > > > How did you reach Woz. I want to straighten this out with him when > I was > at apple we had a good relationship. We went to Reno gambling > together so > I disappointed in his response. It is likely he misunderstood what > happened with tramiel and of course Andre should have believed that > apple > was better. > Frankly there was no serious discussion of a deal just an idea that > didn't > happen. > chuck --------------------------------------- I await any word on whether the two got together and sorted it out. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From wacarder at usit.net Tue Mar 22 21:17:55 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:17:55 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tony said: > Actaully 8 drives per controller, but even so it's crampped. And 8 RK05 > drives take up a heck of a lot of space! and don't forget that they weigh about 125 pounds apiece. 8 RK05s is about a half ton! I used to pick up those RK05s off the floor and rack them myself until I found out what that does to a 47-year old back. I was in the bed for almost the entire month of November from injuring my back lifting RK05s and racking them by myself! Ashley From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 22 21:54:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers Message-ID: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> According to Mobile PC magazine: http://www.mobilepcmag.com/features/2005_04/birthofnotebook.html Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Mar 22 22:08:17 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:08:17 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4240EBB1.8060909@atarimuseum.com> Gee... lets just completely overlook the Apple Mac Portable and mention the Powerbook 100 instead... The Tandy 100 could've gotten a mention, even the Atari Portfolio could've gotten a mention too. Its times like this, you want to roll those mags up and shove it up the editors arse !!! ;-) Curt Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >According to Mobile PC magazine: http://www.mobilepcmag.com/features/2005_04/birthofnotebook.html > >Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net > >*** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter >- 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! >- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all >- W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005 From allain at panix.com Tue Mar 22 22:08:54 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:08:54 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFB@sbs.jdfogg.com> <013001c52f51$f968f970$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <008101c52f5e$08313100$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I came in to the thread late but it looks like Jerome gets the prize. 11/23: 1979. 11/73: 1984 I believe the poster said compact so the 11/34 could be too large for his requirements but it is so legendary that it probably deserves special consideration, when it has the programmers panel it gets to be pretty cool to show. 1976 vintage. Staying with the 11/23 has the advantage of having an allowably small disk drive be within period. Approximate weights: 11/23 with drive, about 100 lbs. 11/34: 110 lbs plus 110 lbs for disk, give or take. Depends on what you mean by compact. Just put the '34 in two boxes. John A. And I've lifted them all. From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue Mar 22 22:23:36 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:23:36 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Attn PC Convertible Collectors In-Reply-To: <000f01c52f4e$92549b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: I have just revieved an IBM 5145 Monitor that appears to be in great shape. Case is in good condition (some smudges that will probably clean right off) and I do get lights a screen flicker when I turn it on. I do not have a PC Convertible to connect it to for testing however. But, judging by the condition of the unit my bet is that it is working just fine. Information I have been able to find about this item is below: IBM 5145 PC CONVERTIBLE COLOR DISPLAY MODEL 1 The 5145 is a 13-inch (measured diagonally) color display that displays in medium resolution (320 x 200). It is designed for those customers whose application requirements will be satisfied by that resolution. It is attached to the system unit via the CRT Display Adapter (#4020). The display stand, an AC power cord, and a signal cable that connects the 5145 to the CRT Display Adapter are provided with the 5145. The display includes a speaker for external audio output. The 5145 will display business and graphics data in 40 x 25 character mode. In 80 x 25 character mode, the 5145 can be used for word processing and text applications. My Question is, is there any interest in this item for anyone on this list? If so, please contact me directly at gmanuel At gmconsultingNOSPAM dot net (formatted correctly of course and removing the obvious spam discourager lol). I got it as part of a lot and am willing to let it go real cheap (based on prices I have seen for them at liquidators and such) + shipping. Or even possibly a even up trade for something of interest. (No I am not expecting a fortune or an Altair for it LOL. You will find I am quite a resonable fellow to deal with.).I am located just outside Philadelphia, PA. US only though sorry. Greg Manuel >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 22 23:15:28 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:15:28 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <4240EBB1.8060909@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >Gee... lets just completely overlook the Apple Mac Portable Oh, they didn't overlook it - check page 5 under their "Flops" listing... :-/ They have an awfully shoddy way of considering "flops but technically advanced so it's good" like the Gavilan SC, but "flops but technically advanced so it's still a flop" like the IBM Thinkpad 701C (Think Butterfly keyboard - the only laptop keyboard that even came *close* to the keyboard on my Tandy 200.) > and mention the Powerbook 100 instead... The Tandy 100 could've gotten > a mention, It did (but just barely) at the same time as the Epson HX-20... but their supposed facts of "but 16K didn't get you far, even in 1982..." Pffft. 16K was a darned good start back then, and the Tandy 100 could go to 32K without trouble; much more depending on how much you wanted to spend on 3rd party schtuff. They did totally err on another thing - the first "full clamshell" laptop was the Tandy 200, which came out in '85, 4 years before the NEC UltraLite. > even the Atari Portfolio could've gotten a mention too. Or the STacy... >Its times like this, you want to roll those mags up and shove it up the >editors arse !!! ;-) Or just not buy it. ;-) Their idea of the 13 "critical machines" to me is disappointing - The Sony Picturebook at best has had minimal market impact and is rarely seen outside Japan; they whine about the Mac Portable's price of $7000 yet $3000 for an underpowered machine is OK (ooOOoo but it's got a webcam!) Pfft. They're idiots, plain and simple. Keep moving, nothing to see here... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 22 23:17:16 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:17:16 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFB@sbs.jdfogg.com> <013001c52f51$f968f970$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <018301c52f67$94fc8040$3a92a8c0@maggie> epay's got a lovely 11/34(prob a or c) two rack system going for 880$ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5178288415&rd=1 looks like tektronix test system - the cpu box looks fully loaded possibly with the fp11 and or 11/34c cache board, 2RLs and a DEC 9 track tape drive, controllers, semi ram., two short racks. you should be able to squeeze these into a single tall rack if you're careful. Should run Unix V7 quite nicely! h From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 23 00:42:45 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:42:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Mar 23, 5 00:15:28 am" Message-ID: <200503230642.WAA15700@floodgap.com> > Their idea of the 13 "critical machines" to me is disappointing - The Sony > Picturebook at best has had minimal market impact and is rarely seen > outside Japan; they whine about the Mac Portable's price of $7000 yet $3000 > for an underpowered machine is OK (ooOOoo but it's got a webcam!) Pfft. > They're idiots, plain and simple. And they also forgot the first colour portable, the SX-64. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We won. Every computer in the world is basically a Mac now. -- S. Wozniak -- From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Mar 22 19:27:53 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:27:53 GMT Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12cce64f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I did finally find a good description in _Understanding the Apple II_ by > Jim Sather from Quality Software (with a forward by Steve Wozniak). 45 > pages alone on the disk controller circuitry and software. Woohoo! I wouldn't mind seeing that myself... Anyone got a PDF of the relevant pages? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... The surest way to be late is to have plenty of time. From James at jdfogg.com Wed Mar 23 05:09:31 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:09:31 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFE@sbs.jdfogg.com> > epay's got a lovely 11/34(prob a or c) two rack system going for 880$ > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it em=5178288415&rd=1 > looks like tektronix test system - the cpu box looks fully > loaded possibly with the fp11 and or 11/34c cache board, 2RLs > and a DEC 9 track tape drive, controllers, semi ram., two short racks. > you should be able to squeeze these into a single tall rack > if you're careful. > Should run Unix V7 quite nicely! Oh the temptation! It's 2 hours away from me (no shipping). From James at jdfogg.com Wed Mar 23 05:14:49 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:14:49 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2DFF@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Gee... lets just completely overlook the Apple Mac Portable > and mention > the Powerbook 100 instead... The Tandy 100 could've gotten > a mention, > even the Atari Portfolio could've gotten a mention too. > > Its times like this, you want to roll those mags up and shove > it up the editors arse !!! ;-) Magazine writers are Journalism and English majors. They are one paycheck away from "would you like fries with that?" The relentless drumbeat of deadlines makes them desperate to fill their little part of the magazine with anything that sounds good, or it's fry grease for them. After a while they begin to believe their swollen ego. It's not just computer mags, look at all the hopelessly simplified (or wrong) psychological advice given in women's magazines. From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Mar 23 05:24:38 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:24:38 +0100 Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1B6A@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > > epay's got a lovely 11/34(prob a or c) two rack system > going for 880$ > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > em=5178288415&rd=1 > > looks like tektronix test system - the cpu box looks fully > > loaded possibly with the fp11 and or 11/34c cache board, 2RLs > > and a DEC 9 track tape drive, controllers, semi ram., two > > short racks. > > you should be able to squeeze these into a single tall rack > > if you're careful. > > Should run Unix V7 quite nicely! > > Oh the temptation! It's 2 hours away from me (no shipping). Indeed. Judging the two Over-The-Top connectors, the CPU must be the 11/34A, because it has installed the floating point _and_ the cache option. The only worry about this configuration is the condition of the TU10. The capstan roller in the top of the TU10 tape drive can be bad. The rollers in both TE16's of mine have gone goo. The rubber ring that clamps the mounted tape can be worn too, but I have heard a story that, if the ring is not to bad, you can revitalise it in warm water. I've never done that (yet) though... - Henk, PA8PDP. From James at jdfogg.com Wed Mar 23 05:38:19 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:38:19 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E03@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Indeed. Judging the two Over-The-Top connectors, the CPU > must be the 11/34A, because it has installed the floating > point _and_ the cache option. > The only worry about this configuration is the condition of > the TU10. The capstan roller in the top of the TU10 tape > drive can be bad. The rollers in both TE16's of mine have gone goo. > The rubber ring that clamps the mounted tape can be worn too, > but I have heard a story that, if the ring is not to bad, you > can revitalise it in warm water. I've never done that (yet) though... I don't have the $900 to rescue this (I'm not sure I even have the mortgage this month), but if it goes unbid (how likely is that?) I'm going to contact the seller and see if we can work something out. The 11/34 was my first PDP contact (in college) and I have yet to own one. I have two great loves (both unfulfilled), an 11/34 and a DG Nova/Eclipse/MV. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 23 06:23:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:23:09 +0000 Subject: What are they worth? was Re: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: References: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42415FAD.5010401@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > An 11/23 w/RLV11 (requires CD-capable backplane) or RLV21 and a couple > of RL02s is a nice PDP-11 system, and fits in a 42" tall rack. Not > sure you could get all of that for under a grand these days, but it's > a place to start. > > -ethan > I've got an OEM 11/73, with (mostly) OEM cards, originally built by Baydel. It's got a couple of ST506 drives, probably about 30M each, and two RL02s plus a spare drive, and about a dozen carts. There's quite a lot of interesting software. I suspect I got a good deal - it cost me a 19" Sun monitor and some beer. Any idea how much that's worth? As far as I can tell, it's about as good a PDP-11 system as you're going to get into the back of a large hatchback... Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 06:56:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:56:38 +0000 Subject: Getting into debugger on Apollo machines In-Reply-To: <000f01c52f4e$92549b20$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <1111526923.24576.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <000f01c52f4e$92549b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1111582598.877.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-22 at 21:18 -0500, Bob Shannon wrote: > Isn't there a switch for this? > > I seem to recall older Apollo's had a sort of 'diag / normal' toggle... Yep - the 4xx machines have a switch on the front; it's on the back for DN3000 and DN3500 machines. It was just the install manual that was confusing me, as it says "make sure you're *not* in service mode to install the OS" - but it seems that being in service mode is the only way of getting into the debugger in order to kick off the OS install :-) Actually, the only way the manual mentions getting to the debugger prompt is from a running copy of the OS. I assume that Apollo shipped their machines with a copy of the OS installed, and installing onto blank media was a service call (which probably makes sense as I bet you weren't supposed to put your own drives in there, but buy them through Apollo) That or they helpfully left the "install from blank media" bit out of the manual :-) I'll try starting in service mode and then flicking to normal mode when I get the debugger prompt before kicking the install off. That just doesn't seem logical to me though - personally I'd expect the machine to always be in service or normal mode between boots, not able to flick between the two under user control. At least once I have one machines set up with an authorised area I can install the others over the network from the first, which'll save a lot of hassle :-) cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Wed Mar 23 08:22:55 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:22:55 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E03@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <004601c52fb3$cf2cd340$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > (I'm not sure I even have the mortgage this month), > but if it goes unbid (how likely is that?) A system like this typically goes for $300-$500, on eBay. So I'd say that there's a good but less than 50% chance for it being unbid upon. BTW I found my 11/34 for $100 in 1999. Keep looking around off of eBay. John A. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Mar 23 08:40:24 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:40:24 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <200503230642.WAA15700@floodgap.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> <200503230642.WAA15700@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050323094004.03254a90@pop-server> At 01:42 AM 3/23/2005, you wrote: >And they also forgot the first colour portable, the SX-64. No they didn't it was in the article towards the end ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 23 08:41:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:41:57 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? References: <20050322220955.70158.qmail@web90106.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <16961.32821.453198.581413@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: curt> You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even curt> numbered) or a Qbus system (odd numbered) .. Huh? You can't deduce the bus type from the parity of the model number. 11/03, 23, 73, 83 are Qbus 11/04, 05, 10, 15, 20, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70, 74, 84 are Unibus paul From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 23 08:57:34 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:57:34 -0500 Subject: TU10 vs TE10 Message-ID: <002201c52fb8$a5c53560$f71b0f14@wcarder1> What's the difference between a TU10 and a TE10 DEC magtape drive? Ashley From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 09:17:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:17:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS lives Message-ID: <20050323151723.51377.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/03/17/177217.shtml?tid=16 Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 22 23:47:04 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:47:04 -0800 Subject: Age & Intro (Long Winded) Message-ID: <424102D8.1020706@ix.netcom.com> After reviewing the last month's messages on the cctech archive web site, thought I should introduce myself. I'm racing up to 63 - wish it went slower, but that's life. My first computer was in the Army in 1960 - an analogue manual input job on a mortar tracking radar. That was at Ft. Monmouth; after that, I was transferred to Restone Arsenal, Alabama and trained on the "Jukebox". It was a vacuum tube computer with a fixed disk main memory used in targeting the Redstone Missile. (I think it was made by Autonetics, but 45 year old memories aren't reliable.) Right after learning the Jukebox, was transferred to the Pershing and trained on a transistor drum memory targeting computer made by Martin Marietta in Orlando. It was exciting, learning all this "new" technology. Transistors were just getting accepted for mil spec programs. We even had a class from RCA for something they called Integrated circuits - the first commercial family of ICs. Was RTL. I still have the data sheets they gave us some place in the garage. After Uncle Sam, I went to Minneapolis to work for Control Data. That was mid-1963 - was trained on the 160-A and 1604. At that time, CDC didn't make its own peripherals, so we used IBM 523s, 088s and Ampex tape units. The first 160s used Ferranti paper tape readers (with thyrotrons) and Teletype punches. The typewriter was a model B IBM with a Soroban encoder. A few months later, Normandale Ops came up with the 606 tape units, followed by the 405 card reader, 415 card punch and 350 paper tape reader. More equipment to learn and support. They also repackaged the 160 in an industrial cabinet and called it the 8090. A smaller division called IDP (Inductrial Data Products) created a tiny 8 bit version called the 8092 for some telecommunication systems they were doing for ARPA. Used teletypes and 101 Bell modems. (Some arguments abput it being the first PC like computer.) They also sold it to a company called Rabinow who made the first commercial OCR scanners. (Biggest customer was the IRS - who had a policy of auditing anybody who worked on their equipment.) Since I was a customer engineer in the Minneapolis area, I had to support all of these new products. I started a new way of life - new product training every few months, then working on the buggy new products from the prototype on. Eventually, I logged more than 5000 hours of class room training on CDC and other vendors products! All the CDC peripherals, plus IBM for unit record, Ampex tapes, Analex printers, Holly Printers, Bryant Drums, IBM 1311 and 2311 disks, flexowriters, Selectrics, Teletype readers, punches, Model 32, 33 and 35 I/O printers, Bell 101 and 301 modems, etc. As CDC grew, they bought out other computer operations. So those of us in the field were also expected to support the Bendix G-15, RPC-4000, LPG-30, etc. It seemed inpossible to stay current - there were just so many systems coming out. For example, in 1964, I had training on the 6600. And a few months later, trained on the 3600. Said training consisted of weeks in the classroom followed by working on the assembly line debugging the systems after they were built. One bright light manager even had the idea to save money by using us to support software since we were already in the field. That way, his programmers didn't have to deal with customers. It didn't take long for this brainstorm to crash; but a bunch of us were also trained on the software, especially the 3300 MSOS and MOS. Over the next 12 years, I stayed in field support, first as an engineer then Tech Support. Was moved around constantly: Atlanta; Huntsville; Houston; The Hague, Holland; London, England; Detroit; Mississauga, Ontario Canada. At this point, I left field support and was in R&D on a machine called the Star-65. It was to be a smaller model of the Star 100. The development was in Canada (Mississauga). When the Star was killed, we did a rush program called Cyber 170, CDC's first all IC machine. After 4 years in the lab, I longed to get back to the field side, so transferred to Oklahoma City and worked on the Magnetic Periphersals' 14" cartridge drives. Then the 8" Lark; the 940X floppies; and finally on the 5" inch Wren series. After 23 years at CDC, I hired on with Fujitsu and moved to Silicon Valley. Managed a group of enginers who supported the peripheral products at OEM sites, primarily Sun and Tandem. My area was disks, tapes, MOs, printers and scanners. Fujitsu faded away, so after 8 years I moved over to Quantum. Again working on disks. Supported all the top 10 OEMs, but primarily Apple and Compaq. It was a matrix style company, so I was also on new Product Teams, getting new drives through the qualification process. Most of these were SCSI-2 and SCSI-3 3.5". Though we did have one 5.25" called the BigFoot. (A infamous legend in its own right.) Finally, a chance came up to get away from hard drives. I joined Philips and managed a group supporting their OEM customers using Philips CD and DVD recorders and media. This was sheer joy - new technology with fun applications. The design work was in Eindhoven, Holland and Hasselt, Belgium so there were some great trips. Initially, the manufacturing was in Gyor, Hungary which was also a fabulous place to visit. Even had to set up lab full of Xboxes and test all the new games to see that they worked on the DVD-ROM! Eventually, Philips exited the designing and manufactuing end. All that is left is a small sales force. The rest of us in the Sunnyvale group scattered. And now some of us old timers are relaxing and thinking of the past. Time for grand children and travel. It was fun being on the cutting edge for 45 years. I miss it. Need something to keep my mind busy. --------------------------------- So that's it for the classic side. Except to add that I saved all of the manuals on equipment I worked on. Eventually, I had to thin them out and dumped a lot of the wire lists, software manuals, periperal manuals, SPAM boxes and general papers. Excepting the 160-A/8090/8092/5101 systems. I always loved them, so kept all the hardware, software, listings, tapes, cards, etc. I think I still have schematics of every computer I worked on, but my garage is a solid mass of books and electronics. Before I can retire and move, it has to shrink by 90%. So I've been looking for a home for it. --------------------------------- I always wanted to have a home system, so in the late 60's I designed a TTL 160-A. There were already several amateur computer groups active - ACS was the most productive. They had a newsletter out that had several designs using TTL and DTL. One used some DEC modules. And then came the famous Radio Electronics article on the Mark 8. It was a great milestone - a real home computer. I promptly sent off for it. Bought an 8008, for $160! But we had started our family that year, so hobbies were put on hold. 30+ years later, 4 kids are raised, through University and raising their own families. Time to play again. I still have the virgin Mark 8 PCBs. In fact they are still in the box they came in! Along with all the components, bought new and never used. I would occasionally pick up micro computers and PCs as they came out, but most are now long gone. I kept a few just because they were small: Kim, Sym, Ebka, PAIA, MicroProfessor, etc. I think I still have all the manuals and software too. I dumped the TRS-80s, Amigas, Ataris, and early PCs. There is still a little of SWTP 6800 stuff left, including some of the TV Typewriters. And most of the assembly manuals. I also keep most of the books, magazines and newsletters from that era. But my PDP-8s are in the Oklahoma City landfill, along with all the discarded CDC manuals, and half a dozen other minis of that era. At that time, I made a little money on the side by rebuilding Teletypes. When we moved, my spare parts and extra 33s went to the highest bidder: $100 for 10 machines and several hundred pounds of spare parts. The calculator collection went too, sadly. I had two working Friden 130/132s. I still mourn their loss. I had picked up a lot of data manuals, parts and ICs, but also dumped them at OkCity. And then started again in California. But it wasn't organised collecting so there is only a hodge podge of products and books filling the garage. Promised my wife I'd clean it out this year, a chore I'm really dreading ----------------------------- I apologise for the long message. Some other people not on the list will also get this. Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 23 09:52:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:52:53 +0000 Subject: BeOS lives In-Reply-To: <20050323151723.51377.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323151723.51377.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1111593173.895.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-23 at 07:17 -0800, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/03/17/177217.shtml?tid=16 Does it run on a BeBox though? No use unless it runs on the proper hardware! :-) cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Mar 23 10:03:38 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:03:38 -0500 Subject: Which PDP? Message-ID: <556ab865567068.5567068556ab86@optonline.net> > >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: > > curt> You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even > curt> numbered) or a Qbus system (odd numbered) .. > > Huh? You can't deduce the bus type from the parity of the model > number. > > 11/03, 23, 73, 83 are Qbus > 11/04, 05, 10, 15, 20, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70, 74, 84 are Unibus > > paul > > Actually that would be the "modulus 2" not parity. 03-even 23-odd 73-odd etc... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 23 10:19:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: What are they worth? was Re: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <42415FAD.5010401@gjcp.net> References: <20050323000647.57718.qmail@web90103.mail.scd.yahoo.com> <42415FAD.5010401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <42419705.3040908@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I've got an OEM 11/73, with (mostly) OEM cards, originally built by > Baydel. It's got a couple of ST506 drives, probably about 30M each, > and two RL02s plus a spare drive, and about a dozen carts. There's > quite a lot of interesting software. > > I suspect I got a good deal - it cost me a 19" Sun monitor and some > beer. Any idea how much that's worth? As far as I can tell, it's > about as good a PDP-11 system as you're going to get into the back of > a large hatchback... > But alot of you collectors got the machines since you knew about what to collect at the right time and place. I still dind it intersting the 11 is still going strong and the all the other bigger DEC machines and workstations are much less popular for collecting. Also living in Canada does have shipping problems so even if a real 11* showed up that I could afford I could never get it here. > Gordon. Ben alias woodelf * Something that is not crippled do to marketing factors. From william.layer at comcast.net Wed Mar 23 10:32:38 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:32:38 -0600 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050323103238.7dc159e0.william.layer@comcast.net> To borrow from a recent (and broadly offensive) film comedy: "This article missed the point, more than Michael Bay missed the mark, when he made Pearl Harbor. This article needs a rewrite more than Ben Affleck needs acting school, he was terrible in that film." On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:15:28 -0500 Roger Merchberger wrote: > It did (but just barely) at the same time as the Epson HX-20... but their > supposed facts of "but 16K didn't get you far, even in 1982..." Pffft. 16K > was a darned good start back then, and the Tandy 100 could go to 32K > without trouble; much more depending on how much you wanted to spend on 3rd > party schtuff. They also totally ignored the Epson PX-4 and PX-8 CPM laptops, which were very interesting and underapprecaited machines. > They did totally err on another thing - the first "full clamshell" laptop > was the Tandy 200, which came out in '85, 4 years before the NEC UltraLite. The comments on the UltraLite are beyond idioic. I guess the (original) external floppy drive that I have with my Nec UltraLite qualifies neither as 'moving parts' nor a 'floppy drive'. Finally, did any of you go to see Pearl Harbor? I've seen better film on a bathtub. ;-) -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 23 10:30:28 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050323094004.03254a90@pop-server> from Gene Ehrich at "Mar 23, 5 09:40:24 am" Message-ID: <200503231630.IAA16094@floodgap.com> > > And they also forgot the first colour portable, the SX-64. > No they didn't it was in the article towards the end Oh, you're right. Oops, I skipped right over it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Mar 23 10:57:34 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:57:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > You should also consider if you want a Unibus system (even numbered) or > a Qbus system (odd numbered) or a hybrid like an 11/83.. though thats an > 80's system, hmmmmm.... The even/odd numbering is only valid for the later systems. Also, an 11/83 is not a hybrid, its a QBus CPU, and system. You meant to say 11/84, which has the same CPU, and a Unibus bridge board. --f From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 23 10:59:20 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:59:20 +0100 Subject: ASR-33... In-Reply-To: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDM00J3U89LMH@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4241A068.2080801@hachti.de> Hi, > still just getting a very light (almost unreadable) character on the > page... I have had the same problem. > Any ideas???? There are two thinks I did to make my ASR33 print well: Replace the old "Gummi" thing on the hammer with something else - must have the right thickness and WEIGHT, try out. Mustn't be hard, of course. The second thing is that I rewound my printer hammer's spring one more turn. But that was not tooo easy. You have do disassemble parts of the printing mechanism. But: My ASR prints fine now. Regards, Philipp :-) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Mar 23 11:04:44 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:04:44 +0100 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> References: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> Message-ID: <4241A1AC.2000809@hachti.de> Hi, > I am currently modifying my Teletype ASR33 into a LT33 according to the > DEC specifications to work with my PDP-8/L. Does someone know what is a > Thyractor (GE 6RS20SP4B4) ? Some kind of voltage clamping device ?. > How could I make one, using, for instance a pair of thyristors or a pair > of zenner diodes ? Hey, look at the function of the little relay card in the ASR - and build something similar. I have two of this modifies ASRs, it's really nothing special.... Regards, Philipp. From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 11:07:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:07:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050323170752.3785.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> So how of you out there saw my name in this RE: message and groaned, "not again..."? Hey, Mr. Fogg: I'm a reporter and a pretty serious computer collector, too. So, if it makes your tiny brain happy, go ahead believing that anyone who isn't in high-tech must not be as smart as you; that any idiot can be a good writer and researcher; that I spend my day like the papparazzi desperate to fill pages; and that it's all to inflate my ego. Oh, and that I'm one step from selling fries at McDonalds, that sure was clever of you. But you know what? When your computer company has layoffs, that will be something to write about too. Maybe then you'll be selling fries, or worse, reduced to helping stupid users at Fry's. At least they won't off-shore your job, you moron. --- James Fogg wrote: > > Gee... lets just completely overlook the Apple Mac Portable > > and mention > > the Powerbook 100 instead... The Tandy 100 could've gotten > > a mention, > > even the Atari Portfolio could've gotten a mention too. > > > > Its times like this, you want to roll those mags up and shove > > it up the editors arse !!! ;-) > > Magazine writers are Journalism and English majors. They are one > paycheck away from "would you like fries with that?" The relentless > drumbeat of deadlines makes them desperate to fill their little part of > the magazine with anything that sounds good, or it's fry grease for > them. After a while they begin to believe their swollen ego. > > It's not just computer mags, look at all the hopelessly simplified (or > wrong) psychological advice given in women's magazines. > > Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 23 11:37:18 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:37:18 -0800 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype References: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> Message-ID: > I am currently modifying my Teletype ASR33 into a LT33 according to the DEC > specifications to work with my PDP-8/L. Does someone know what is a > Thyractor (GE 6RS20SP4B4) ? Some kind of voltage clamping device ?. > How could I make one, using, for instance a pair of thyristors or a pair of > zenner diodes ? thyractor: "A marketing name by DAVIS, the thyractor was a combination of a low loss choke (the reactor) and a thyristor." I know NTE still markets a replacement for the 6RS20SP5B5 (but not the 4B4). Unfortunately, I don't have the detailed specs for the 4B4. On the other hand, I think it is just a handy voltage clamp to keep the semiconductor circuits from seeing the inductive spikes from the TTY. Shouldn't be too hard to come up with something else that would work. Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 23 11:42:37 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:42:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: BeOS lives In-Reply-To: <20050323151723.51377.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> from "Computer Collector Newsletter" at Mar 23, 2005 07:17:22 AM Message-ID: <200503231742.j2NHgceb016731@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/03/17/177217.shtml?tid=16 Do you happen to realize how long Yellow Tab has been selling Zeta? It's been around since at least 2002, and I think they've been selling it since 2003. http://www.yellowtab.com Also, lets not forget OpenBeOS, which is now known as Haiku http://www.haiku-os.org/ For completeness, we shouldn't leave out BeOS Max. http://www.bebits.com/app/3892 Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 23 11:46:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:46:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: code for the 4004 Message-ID: <200503231746.JAA29828@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I have a friend that is working on some 4004 stuff. He is looking for the binary code for the prom set called A0750-A0758. Does anyone have this kind of stuff in their old ISIS disk collection? I believe this was mainly used on the SIM4-02 boards. If course, any software for the 4004 and/or the SIM4-01/-02 boards would be great as well. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 23 11:54:35 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:54:35 -0500 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype References: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> <011d01c52fce$f6666000$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <16961.44379.101138.486052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "vrs" == vrs writes: >> I am currently modifying my Teletype ASR33 into a LT33 according >> to the vrs> DEC >> specifications to work with my PDP-8/L. Does someone know what is >> a Thyractor (GE 6RS20SP4B4) ? Some kind of voltage clamping device >> ?. How could I make one, using, for instance a pair of thyristors >> or a pair vrs> of >> zenner diodes ? vrs> thyractor: "A marketing name by DAVIS, the thyractor was a vrs> combination of a low loss choke (the reactor) and a thyristor." vrs> I know NTE still markets a replacement for the 6RS20SP5B5 (but vrs> not the 4B4). Unfortunately, I don't have the detailed specs vrs> for the 4B4. vrs> On the other hand, I think it is just a handy voltage clamp to vrs> keep the semiconductor circuits from seeing the inductive spikes vrs> from the TTY. Shouldn't be too hard to come up with something vrs> else that would work. If it's a voltage clamp, then either back to back zeners, or a MOV should work. MOV might be the better choice since they are explicitly designed as protective devices. Zeners would be ok in the larger sizes, but the small ones may be fragile enough that they don't do well in this application. paul From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 23 12:12:07 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:12:07 -0500 Subject: AS400 for auction Message-ID: <200503231812.j2NIC7V6029357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> There's an AS400 in an auction in Grand Rapids. Current bid, $50. Auction ends tonight at 8:00 ET. This is the liquidation of the assest of the company which was busted by the feds last year for massive investor fraud. http://www.biddingatauction.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=795843156 FWIW, De From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Mar 23 12:12:44 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:12:44 -0800 Subject: History of notebook computers References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> <20050323103238.7dc159e0.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4241B19C.9BB4CF3F@msm.umr.edu> The missed the atrona which ran cpm and msdos both and was much smaller than the compaq they had in the article. I think that some of the choices in this article may be skewed by the fact that journalists have their own peculiar needs in portables. I think they use such units as will support the text preparation and transmission functions they need, and don't tend to require a full functionality of a desktop as can be obtained today. I have seen articles as recently as in the last couple of years of using small tandy portables to enter stories on and transmit them by modem being used by some reporters. I would guess it is sort of like the same as figuring you are comfortable with your underwood, and not going to be forced to change. JIm From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 23 12:24:00 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:24:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: <200503231824.KAA29839@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I meant to jump in earlier when we were talking about the data formats on disk but got side tracked with work ( ick! ). It was mentioned that one could have no more than two concecutive zeros. It was mentioned that this was a speed issue of the disk. Actually there is another reason. The level of the signal from the disk is constantly changing. Think of driving over a rough road and you want to count the rocks but not the larger bumps. If you just set a fixed threshold on the shocks, every time you went over a bump, you would miss a bunch of small rocks while the suspension system was absorbing the larger bump. Now, if you made the system track the slower larger stuff, you could ignore the large bump and still see the rocks. The problem is that the system now sees the occational rock when there was none for some time because it is drifting along. By making sure that there are occational rocks, the system can stay adjusted to be most sensitive to the rocks without having false detects. The disk read is the same, it needs to see data from the disk surface to keep the threshold detection circuit from having false detects from noise and random level shifts. Dwight From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 23 12:54:05 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:54:05 -0600 Subject: More Books today Message-ID: <00b001c52fd9$b1238170$18406b43@66067007> The DHL truck came with 77 more books today and there were many good titles in the boxes. I picked two to pull for reviewing, digital PDP-11 Architecture Handbook 1983 and TTL Cookbook by Don Lancaster 1976 (fifth printing). From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 23 13:09:45 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050323110633.M1481@localhost> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > They did totally err on another thing - the first "full clamshell" laptop was > the Tandy 200, which came out in '85, 4 years before the NEC UltraLite. Morrow I think had a CP/M-80 fully battery-powered, fold-up clamshell computer before even that. Computer magazines are pretty consistently worthless today -- they know only about sales. They could be selling wicker baskets, same difference. New! Improved! Same but no different! > Their idea of the 13 "critical machines" to me is disappointing - The Sony > Picturebook at best has had minimal market impact and is rarely seen outside > Japan; But Sony is probably a big advertiser. It's pretty much as simple as that. If you don't pick at it, it doesn't hurt :-) From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 13:18:56 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:18:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050323191856.13321.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> I fully agree that the article wasn't very good, but Tom, I know you're more reasonable than this: you're directly accusing the magazine of including Sony because they are an advertiser?? C'mon... --- Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Computer magazines are pretty consistently worthless today -- they > know only about sales. They could be selling wicker baskets, same > difference. New! Improved! Same but no different! > > > Their idea of the 13 "critical machines" to me is disappointing - The Sony > > Picturebook at best has had minimal market impact and is rarely seen > outside > > Japan; > > But Sony is probably a big advertiser. It's pretty much as simple > as that. > > > > > If you don't pick at it, it doesn't hurt :-) > > Evan's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From kurt at k-huhn.com Wed Mar 23 13:24:36 2005 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:24:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323170752.3785.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 <20050323170752.3785.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8660.198.180.131.22.1111605876.squirrel@webmail.k-huhn.com> On Wed, March 23, 2005 12:07, Computer Collector Newsletter said: > > Hey, Mr. Fogg: I'm a reporter and a pretty serious computer collector, > too. > So, if it makes your tiny brain happy, go ahead believing that anyone who > isn't > in high-tech must not be as smart as you; that any idiot can be a good > writer > and researcher; that I spend my day like the papparazzi desperate to fill > pages; and that it's all to inflate my ego. Oh, and that I'm one step > from > selling fries at McDonalds, that sure was clever of you. But you know > what? > When your computer company has layoffs, that will be something to write > about > too. Maybe then you'll be selling fries, or worse, reduced to helping > stupid > users at Fry's. At least they won't off-shore your job, you moron. > Why is it that every time someone says the least thing "boo" about the media, you get your panties in a twist? Give it a rest. He's entitled to his opinion. And uh, I would hold off on the insults to James Fogg. You have no idea what his situation is, nor are you ever likely to - at least with that attitude. -- Kurt Huhn "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!" kurt at k-huhn.com -- Patches O'Houlihan From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 13:34:13 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about fast food workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct intolerance. He might as well have been talking about a race or religion or nationality -- which surely would not have been tolerated here. --- Kurt Huhn wrote: > > Why is it that every time someone says the least thing "boo" about the > media, you get your panties in a twist? Give it a rest. He's entitled to > his opinion. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 13:35:44 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:35:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <12cce64f4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I did finally find a good description in _Understanding the Apple II_ by > > Jim Sather from Quality Software (with a forward by Steve Wozniak). 45 > > pages alone on the disk controller circuitry and software. Woohoo! > > I wouldn't mind seeing that myself... Anyone got a PDF of the relevant pages? I'll try to scan it in but it won't be anytime soon. I'm off on a trip for a week starting Friday and when I get back I'll probably have forgotten about it, so remind me :) Anyway, I'll put it up on the web somewhere but will give out the URL to only people who asked for it so I don't get flamed by idiots. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 23 14:07:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:07:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: References: <42409AE2.9010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <51169.64.139.41.130.1111608447.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Fred wrote: > The even/odd numbering is only valid for the later systems. It's perfectly simple. If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg. You simply collect his note before lunch, after you've done your scripture prep, when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes onto the lower peg, greet the visitors, and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed. Oops, strike that. I meant: It's perfectly simple. The models that end in "3" are Qbus. > Also, an 11/83 is not a hybrid, its a QBus CPU, and system. You meant > to say 11/84, which has the same CPU, and a Unibus bridge board. Note that while the KDJ11-B CPU is used in both Qbus (11/83) and Unibus (11/84) systems, that when installed in an 11/84, it does NOT use Qbus. The processor bus in an 11/84 is similar but NOT identical to Qbus. There is a signal on the PMI connector that tells the KDB11-B which type of system it is installed into, and thus which kind of bus to use. Thus the KTJ11-B bridge is NOT a Qbus-to-Unibus bridge, but rather a KDJ11-B-special-bus-to-Unibus bridge. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 23 14:14:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200503231824.KAA29839@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503231824.KAA29839@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <51791.64.139.41.130.1111608891.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Dwight wrote: > It was mentioned that one could have no more than > two concecutive zeros. It was mentioned that this > was a speed issue of the disk. Actually there is > another reason. The level of the signal from the disk > is constantly changing. Think of driving over a rough > road and you want to count the rocks but not the > larger bumps. If you just set a fixed threshold > on the shocks, every time you went over a bump, > you would miss a bunch of small rocks while the > suspension system was absorbing the larger bump. That's true, although actually three or even four consecutive zeros seem to work reliably enough on a Disk II with the 16-sector controller state machine, provided that you keep the motor speed reasonably constant. It just won't work well for interchange, or on the same machine over a longer period of time. The time constant on the threshold detection isn't fast enough for just a few extra bit times without a transition to shift it very much. In principle, with much more complex (and bigger) prenibblization and postnibblization code the Disk II could have used 80 nybble values to encode a 256-byte sector into 324 nybbles rather than 342, but that would not have been enough to get even a single additional sector per track. Eric From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 23 14:28:07 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:28:07 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers References: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801c52fe6$d3c761d0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector Newsletter" To: "Kurt Huhn" ; ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: RE: History of notebook computers > It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to > indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about fast food > workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct intolerance. He > might as well have been talking about a race or religion or nationality -- > which surely would not have been tolerated here. > > --- Kurt Huhn wrote: > > > > > Why is it that every time someone says the least thing "boo" about the > > media, you get your panties in a twist? Give it a rest. He's entitled to > > his opinion. Please don't compare intolerance of somebody's skin, the place they happened to be born in, and the religion thrust on them by their parents (they didn't have a choice) with the intolerance of a career somebody decided to take in their 20's after actively going to school to accomplish this vocation. People complaining about the media are not the same type of people who join the KKK, get it? From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 23 14:47:09 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:47:09 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <4241B19C.9BB4CF3F@msm.umr.edu> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> <20050323103238.7dc159e0.william.layer@comcast.net> <4241B19C.9BB4CF3F@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4241D5CD.5020502@mdrconsult.com> jim stephens wrote: > The missed the atrona which ran cpm and msdos both and was > much smaller than the compaq they had in the article. > > I think that some of the choices in this article may be skewed by > the fact that journalists have their own peculiar needs in portables. > > I think they use such units as will support the text preparation and > transmission functions they need, and don't tend to require a full > functionality of a desktop as can be obtained today. > > I have seen articles as recently as in the last couple of years of using > small tandy portables to enter stories on and transmit them by > modem being used by some reporters. I would guess it is sort of > like the same as figuring you are comfortable with your underwood, > and not going to be forced to change. I'm writing a book on my eMate, although I'm not sure why. I didn't learn on an eMate, didn't have or use one when they were current, have zero nostalgic or habit-related reason to run it. But the words come out better on that teensy little screen. :^) Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 23 14:49:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:28 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Chad Fernandez wrote: > I suppose it's also possible that they actually do get more printers and > monitors than cpus. Thinking about it now, I gave Goodwill about 3 or 4 > printers last year, but no cpus. They do have cpus sometimes, but > they're usually old store bought PC's or very old no name PCs, or older > Macs. I haven't seen a Microchannel PS/2 or an Apple // in a long time. With all this talk of Goodwill (and thank you for educating me, guys!), I decided to check one out. They had lots of computer equipment on the shelves, but it broke down thusly: 50% 15" VGA monitors 30% Packard Bell or other similar trash PCs 10% keyboards 5% Printers (all inkjet) 5% Software (mostly games, early CDROM junk, the few good ones were incomplete) I'll keep checking every month, though. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 23 14:46:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:46:17 -0700 Subject: More Books today In-Reply-To: <00b001c52fd9$b1238170$18406b43@66067007> References: <00b001c52fd9$b1238170$18406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <4241D599.8070201@jetnet.ab.ca> Keys wrote: > The DHL truck came with 77 more books today and there were many good > titles in the boxes. I picked two to pull for reviewing, digital > PDP-11 Architecture Handbook 1983 and TTL Cookbook by Don Lancaster > 1976 (fifth printing). > . > Umm did you also get a bookshelf to hold your new books? Let us know if you got any good duplicates for sale. Ben alias woodelf From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 23 14:57:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:57:40 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4241D844.60604@mdrconsult.com> Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to > indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about fast food > workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct intolerance. He > might as well have been talking about a race or religion or nationality -- > which surely would not have been tolerated here. It might help your case if you didn't: A) Keep resorting to personal insults, and B) Keep proving the stereotype. Congratulations, Mr. Reporter! You're the very first Classic Computers list member ever to make my killfile. Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 23 15:00:54 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:00:54 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <010701c52feb$68a76cb0$18406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > With all this talk of Goodwill (and thank you for educating me, guys!), I > decided to check one out. They had lots of computer equipment on the > shelves, but it broke down thusly: > > 50% 15" VGA monitors > 30% Packard Bell or other similar trash PCs > 10% keyboards > 5% Printers (all inkjet) > 5% Software (mostly games, early CDROM junk, the few good ones were > incomplete) > > I'll keep checking every month, though. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > You almost have to stop each day as good things do not last long. Here in Houston some people sit in the Goodwill all day for 8 hours getting the stuff as it is being put out. There are fights sometime. From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 15:14:15 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:14:15 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Jim Leonard wrote: > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > monitors than cpus. Thinking about it now, I gave Goodwill about 3 or 4 > > printers last year, but no cpus. They do have cpus sometimes, but > > they're usually old store bought PC's or very old no name PCs, or older > > Macs. I haven't seen a Microchannel PS/2 or an Apple // in a long time. > With all this talk of Goodwill (and thank you for educating me, guys!), I > decided to check one out. They had lots of computer equipment on the shelves, [snip] What you see there is what is unsellable, usually. The "good stuff" is typically snatched up on the same day it is donated, leaving trash on the shelves. This is why I attempt to visit all 11 of my stores on at least a monthly basis to tell them what to mark down and what to toss out. Obviously I'm not always successful. And those "trash PC's" are what I run the company systems on. I figured it was better to do it that way and get $5 licenses from techsoup (Microsoft for nonprofits) than to pay exorbitant fees to Dell, MS, HP, etc. pentium1 and below get turned into routers or scrap, anything below 500mhz gets turned into a lab terminal, and everything better gets put on someone's desk. If there's a complete system with manuals, software, and peripherals I try to do a fresh install and sell it at one of the stores, or on eBay. Trying desparately to bring this back on topic: what do you think a fair price would be for a 14 or 15" monitor? What about keyboards, mice, assorted cords, old software? I know someone mentioned a "price guide" at about $20 a pop; I'll try and include a few of those on next years' budget. I guess since -you- are the most likely people to buy this sort of thing, how much would you be willing to pay? -dhbarr. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Mar 23 15:45:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:45:16 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4241E36C.5000701@oldskool.org> David H. Barr wrote: > Trying desparately to bring this back on topic: what do you think a > fair price would be for a 14 or 15" monitor? What about keyboards, > mice, assorted cords, old software? I know someone mentioned a "price > guide" at about $20 a pop; I'll try and include a few of those on next > years' budget. I guess since -you- are the most likely people to buy > this sort of thing, how much would you be willing to pay? Me personally, I won't pay over a dollar a diagonal inch for anything under 17" monitors unless it is in particular good condition or desirable by me (for example, an IBM CGA monitor that is quite clean and working, or a specific Dell 14" fixed-frequency monitor that matches my Dell 386sx16 case, keyboard, and mouse... etc.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 23 15:58:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:58:22 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4241E36C.5000701@oldskool.org> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> <4241E36C.5000701@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050323165822.37e337e7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:45:16 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Me personally, I won't pay over a dollar a diagonal inch for anything > under 17" > monitors unless it is in particular good condition or > desirable by me (for example, an IBM CGA monitor that is quite clean > and working, or a specific Dell I'm nearly ready to pay serious money for a clean working original IBM EGA monitor, if I could find one. I have an original IBM AT with EGA card, and it seems criminal to even power it up with some crappy clone VGA card in it. . . From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 23 16:06:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:06:57 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <4240C215.4071B93D@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050323170657.6e928e29.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:49:27 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Some stuff you can sell; some you > can throw away at no cost; and other stuff you have to pay to get rid > of. > Here in central Indiana I pay $15 a month for weekly trash pickup, and they (so far) have hauled away anything I've put out there. There have been weeks after big auctions when I've put out up to 7-10 CRTs. Which get sorted downstream, I am fairly certain. (the hauling company has 'Salvage' in the company name) Sure am glad I live in poor ignorant flyover country sometimes. (Wish the previous owner of our land hadn't used the ditch out at the back of the field by the railroad track as a dump for so long, though.) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 23 16:22:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:22:43 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6667@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050323172243.0092c3d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:34 AM 3/23/05 -0800, news at computercollector.com wrote: >It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to >indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about I take it that that should be "above" and not "about". I would think that someone that claims to be a news reporter would be more careful about their wording. Things like that are exactly what gives reporters and the like the image of being a bunch of incompetent boobs. fast food >workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct intolerance. That's not intolerance. It's his opinion and he's entitled to it. He >might as well have been talking about a race or religion or nationality -- >which surely would not have been tolerated here. Tolerance includes tolerating the opinions of others, something that you've obviously never managed to do. I for one am tired of your whinny complaints everytime someone criticizes the news media or the article's author in this case. Grow up! Joe > >--- Kurt Huhn wrote: > >> >> Why is it that every time someone says the least thing "boo" about the >> media, you get your panties in a twist? Give it a rest. He's entitled to >> his opinion. > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Mar 23 16:39:51 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 05 22:39:51 GMT Subject: History of notebook computers Message-ID: <0503232239.AA27918@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Joe R. wrote: > Things like that are exactly what gives reporters and the > like the image of being a bunch of incompetent boobs. ^^^^^ Boobs? Isn't our Mr. Reporter male? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) MS From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 17:04:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050323230422.76330.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Hey, if you agree with Fogg's assertion that ALL of the media are hardly qualified to ask "you want fries with that?", then I really don't give a (bleeped out) what you think. --- Doc Shipley wrote: > Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to > > indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about fast food > > workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct intolerance. He > > might as well have been talking about a race or religion or nationality -- > > which surely would not have been tolerated here. > > It might help your case if you didn't: > > A) Keep resorting to personal insults, and > > B) Keep proving the stereotype. > > Congratulations, Mr. Reporter! You're the very first Classic > Computers list member ever to make my killfile. > > > Doc > > From James at jdfogg.com Wed Mar 23 17:07:29 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:07:29 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E0C@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Hey, Mr. Fogg: I'm a reporter and a pretty serious computer > collector, too. > So, if it makes your tiny brain happy, go ahead believing > that anyone who isn't in high-tech must not be as smart as > you; that any idiot can be a good writer and researcher; that > I spend my day like the papparazzi desperate to fill pages; > and that it's all to inflate my ego. Oh, and that I'm one > step from selling fries at McDonalds, that sure was clever of > you. But you know what? > When your computer company has layoffs, that will be > something to write about too. Maybe then you'll be selling > fries, or worse, reduced to helping stupid users at Fry's. > At least they won't off-shore your job, you moron. My company did have massive layoffs - 2 years ago - due to Microsoft buying them. With 20 years of broad enterprise experience I've yet to be re-employed. I have a terminal illness that is beginning to show physical signs that HR people ask about, so re-employment is not likely. I cannot perform the job of fry chef as I cannot stand for more than an hour. In my blanket generalization of *magazine* writers (not newspaper reporters and book writers) I never made a claim of specific intelligence. In fact I labeled them as Journalism and English majors, not idiots that can't get a college degree. But my statement stands - they typically don't have the background to fully understand what they are writing about. Most magazine articles are written in a style that presents the author as someone knowledgeable in the subject of the article (a difference from reporters who present what they find and how they found it). Book authors usually *are* knowledgeable in the subject, and often partner with a writer to better present the material in a professional and understandable manner. My inclusion of a reference to fast-food workers was actually a vague reference to the stabs at certain professions such as Journalism/English repeatedly made in the comic strip "Dilbert". Some professions, such as music, acting and writing, have a stigma of early-career joblessness (how many actors were waiters?). It was a bit harsh, and I apologize. This has nothing to do with technocracy or elitism. I don't expect a lawyer or physician to build or fix their computer systems and I don't practice law or medicine. Consumer-grade tech magazines have become a vast wasteland of simplifications and brain-candy. I think the expectations placed on magazine writers are unrealistic and driven by profit and advertiser appeasement. And I am glad that there are people like you around who can write authoritatively on a subject that non-tech people have trouble understanding. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 23 17:19:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:19:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323103238.7dc159e0.william.layer@comcast.net> References: <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <20050323035458.59403.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050322235919.0590eea0@mail.30below.com> <20050323103238.7dc159e0.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20050323151704.M69861@shell.lmi.net> > They did totally err on another thing - the first "full clamshell" laptop > was the Tandy 200, which came out in '85, 4 years before the NEC UltraLite. I first saw a working Gavilan ("clamshell") at NCC in Anaheim in 1983. It was in the air-conditioned main building - I heard that people DIED in the tent out back! From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 23 17:41:36 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:41:36 +0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4241FEB0.4010900@gjcp.net> David H. Barr wrote: > And those "trash PC's" are what I run the company systems on. I > figured it was better to do it that way and get $5 licenses from > techsoup (Microsoft for nonprofits) than to pay exorbitant fees to Why not use one of the free Unix-workalikes? Gordon. From news at computercollector.com Wed Mar 23 17:31:32 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050323233132.47160.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> >>> It was a bit harsh, and I apologize. Thank you. Same here. >>> And I am glad that there are people like you around who can write authoritatively on a subject that non-tech people have trouble understanding. Well, that's just buttering me up. Thank you though. :) >>> I think the expectations placed on magazine writers are unrealistic and driven by profit and advertiser appeasement. There are always a minority of publications with lax ethics, as there are always a minority of companies with lax ethics in any business. Please don't let that or a famous case here and there lead you to think we're all a bunch of bastards. (Last time this topic came up, I used the analogy of "how would full-time computer nerds like it if I said you're all a bunch of socially clueless acne-face loners," which totally backfired on me because a few people replied and said "well that would be accurate...") Jay: I'm done now. :) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 23 17:34:27 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:34:27 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050323173334.04b8c608@mail> At 02:49 PM 3/23/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >With all this talk of Goodwill (and thank you for educating me, guys!), I decided to check one out. They had lots of computer equipment on the shelves, but it broke down thusly: Yes, and that's because they have someone who's considered smart enough to save the good stuff. The IMSAI and the Lisa went straight to the dumpster because they weren't PC enough. As for the theory that the IMSAI and the Lisa were there but sold immediately because they were spotted by a knowing Goodwill customer - I consider that far less probable. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 23 17:38:50 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:38:50 -0600 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050323173805.048dc818@mail> At 01:34 PM 3/23/2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason to >indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about fast food >workers. Don't make me start telling tales out of school about Jerry Pournelle or John Dvorak. Please, somebody mention Nazis so this thread can die a happy death. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 23 17:49:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:49:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050323153609.G69861@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > say that we're one notch about (S.I.C.) fast food workers. It seems a little harsh for Mr. Reporter to say that magazine writers are NOT a notch above fast food workers. Most writers that I've known (I've even done a trivial amount myself) ARE above fast food workers. And why are we denigrqating fast food workers? Regardless of who is writing it, MOST histories of events within our times are heavily biased towards our own experiences. For example, Cringely's history consists of barely ANYTHING other than Apple, IBM PC. Since I didn't get into Commodore microcomputers (I did have a few of their calculators) until the Amiga, MY telling of the history of micros would have only a cursory mention of the Pet, Vic 20, and 64, all of which were arguably important milestones. Failing to include the Otrona is sad, but few people were aware of its existence at the time, despite its beautiful design, and being the target of IBM legal action for the use of the Charlie Chaplin character in an ad. BTW, how do you think Chaplin would have felt about his heirs selling his character to IBM?? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 17:07:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:07:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Which PDP? In-Reply-To: from "Ashley Carder" at Mar 22, 5 10:17:55 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony said: > > Actaully 8 drives per controller, but even so it's crampped. And 8 RK05 > > drives take up a heck of a lot of space! > > and don't forget that they weigh about 125 pounds apiece. 8 RK05s is > about a half ton! I used to pick up those RK05s off the floor and rack > them myself until I found out what that does to a 47-year old back. I Oh, I rack them myself, but I'm not afraid to take 'em apart first. I remove the covers, front panel, PSU, spindle, spindle motor, blower, positioner, logic module, etc. The empty chassis is quite easy to lift, putting the bits back in doesn't take long either. Did the same when getting my RK07s onto their stands. They come apart from the top downwards, when you get the electronics, disk housing, etc out of the way, the main chassis, complete with spindle, spindle motor, positioned, etc, comes out with just 3 bolts. The base pan is quite easy to lift onto the stand, agqain it all goes back together in a few minutes. And the RA60. A fried delivered one using his pick-up truck (a 1947 Fordson IIRC). I took one look at it (the drive) and decided there was no way I could get that thing into the house and upstairs on my own. So I grabbed the toolkit and took it apart on the back of the truck. Again, the main chassis comes out with little work and is liftable, so is the casing and the various electronic parts. -tony From fernande at internet1.net Wed Mar 23 18:29:24 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:29:24 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <424209E4.9060305@internet1.net> David H. Barr wrote: > Trying desparately to bring this back on topic: what do you think a > fair price would be for a 14 or 15" monitor? Monitors: $5 for existing, $5 more for being clean, $5 more for a flat (trinitron) tube..... so $5 to $15 for a 15" and below. I would consider that a movem on out price, which is what you'd want, I think. If I can find one at all, a 17" will get $30 to $40 easy. > What about keyboards, General crap keyboards $1 to $2, tops. My local Goodwill stores have a set price for them, but I don't know what it is anymore. IBM Model M, $5, more of it's a nice clean one. > mice, assorted cords, old software? I think my local GW has mice under a buck, but I'm not sure. Software is usually on a few dollars, I think, but they keep it behind glass, now, and since it's mostly games I don't pay attention. Cables are usually unpriced because they were supposed to go with the printer that someone already bought :-) A buck or two probably. > I know someone mentioned a "price > guide" at about $20 a pop; I'll try and include a few of those on next > years' budget. I guess since -you- are the most likely people to buy > this sort of thing, how much would you be willing to pay? The price guide doesn't sound real practical too me, but maybe if you've got a few sharper people in a few of the stores.... I don't know accurate price guides are anyhow. We don't really want Ebay type prices at Goodwill. To me, Goodwill is sort of like a garage sale..... something maybe worth a lot, but if it's in a garage sale, the seller isn't getting what it's truly worth in the items proper market. I know I've referenced my local Goodwill stores here quite a bit, but unless they're going through and chucking the stuff right off the shelves every other week, they're selling it. Granted they do have some things that move slower than others, like earlier styled monitors. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Mar 23 18:40:29 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:40:29 -0500 Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42420C7D.4010104@nktelco.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the >>use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. >> >> > >A general comment. When I don't have the right extender, or in cases like >this when you can't use one, what I generally do is solder some wires to >useful points on the board, put the board back in, and probe the free >ends of the wires. Don't try this on fast stuff, but for the 8/e it >should be fine. > > I thought of that... Just don't relish the idea... You do what you gotta do though. >-tony > > > I did some tests with the various EAE instructions and it seems that when the main timing generator is stopped, either the EAE timing generator does not start or it does not restart the main timing generator. Any instruction that hands off control seems to hang the processor. -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Mar 23 19:01:14 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:01:14 -0500 Subject: pdp8/e Problems: KE8-E EAE debugging In-Reply-To: References: <422FA630.10803@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4242115A.4010608@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:43:12 -0500, Charles H. Dickman > wrote: > > >>I added support to SPCWR3.PA for the VC8/I. >> >>http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp8/VC8/SPCWR3_vc8i.PA >> >> > >Nice! Thanks! > > > It was nothing really... :-) >>This requires an EAE and now I find out that my untested EAE does not work. >> >> > >Doh! I didn't even think of that. :-( I don't have a single EAE for >_any_ machine. > > > This version does use the EAE. I have another that is MUCH simpler that does not seem to need EAE. >The closest I could think about getting would be to bum some M-series >boards from a working machine/disk controller and stuff them in my -8/i, >but ISTR there are a few wire changes to make as well, so I think I'd >rather not do that if I thought I'd have to remove it. In any case, I don't >have a genuine VC8/I in the first place, or it might be attractive to try. > >Ah, well... maybe _someday_ I'll run across the parts I need to pull this off. > > From what I saw in the 8/I printset, you need 3 cards: two A607, and one M701 or A701 (one place its and A and another place its an M). The A607 might be generic, but the M701 is very specifically the VC8/I display controller. >>I got a copy of MAINDEC-8E-D0LB-D which is EAE test 1 and it locked up >>pretty much the same way. I removed the EAE and the diagnostic halted at >>a reasonable place insteading of locking up. >> >> > >Sounds ominous. > > > It seem like there is something wrong with the timing generator in the EAE. Since NOTHING works when the EAE timing generator is needed, maybe it is something simple. :-) >>This not gonna be easy to fix. The over-the-top connectors prevent the >>use of an extender card, so I can't probe anything easily. >> >> > > > Lately what I need most is time... > >-ethan > -chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Mar 23 19:17:37 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:17:37 -0500 Subject: unibus tape controller - pertec + tmscp? Message-ID: <200503240117.j2O1HbSh019228@mwave.heeltoe.com> Just curious, Does anyone on the list have an extra unibus tape controller which has a pertec interface and emulate tmscp? I believe both emulex and dilog made such things. If anyone has one collecting dust and would like to bargain, please email me. I have an TS05 I'd like to try out. thanks! -brad From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Mar 23 19:46:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:46:32 -0500 Subject: TU10 vs TE10 References: <002201c52fb8$a5c53560$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <16962.7160.671000.429903@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> What's the difference between a TU10 and a TE10 DEC magtape Ashley> drive? I don't remember a TE10. There's a TE16, which as far as I remember is a TU16 with the mechanics made more user-friendly (easier tape loading and all that). Looking at the RSTS code, there is no trace of TE10 in there, so it looks like the difference is invisible to software. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 23 19:50:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:50:41 -0500 Subject: SBUS & ATM cards available Message-ID: <200503232050.41466.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got the following available for $5/card + shipping: * 16 FORE SBUS SBA-200 UTP ATM card * 4 FORE SBUS PCA-200 UTP ATM card * 2 SUN SBUS ATM-155 UTP ATM card 501-2795 * 1 SUN SBUS GX framebuffer (CG6) 501-2018 (double-wide card) * 1 SUN SBUS framebuffer (CG6) 501-1481 (double-wide) * 1 SUN SBUS GX framebuffer (CG6) 501-1672 * 1 SUN SBUS framebuffer (CG6) 501-2325 * 3 SUN SBUS GX fameebuffer (CG6) 501-2922 * 4 SUN SBUS MG1 ECL framebuffer 501-1419 * 3 SUN SBUS AUI/BNC Ethernet card 501-1881 * 1 Interphase SBUS ATM card w/SC fibre connectors * 2 FORE EISA ESA-200 UTP ATM card * 1 FORE EISA ESA-200 SC/Fibre ATM card I'm in West, Lafayette, IN, US, zip 47906. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 23 20:04:59 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:04:59 -0500 Subject: unibus tape controller - pertec + tmscp? In-Reply-To: <200503240117.j2O1HbSh019228@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > Just curious, > > Does anyone on the list have an extra unibus tape controller which has a > pertec interface and emulate tmscp? > > I believe both emulex and dilog made such things. > > If anyone has one collecting dust and would like to bargain, please > email me. > > I have an TS05 I'd like to try out. > > thanks! > > -brad I have some type of emulex unibus boards. I have never bothered to figure out what they are. I'll pull them out and get the model numbers off them. Do you know how to identify these boards? Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:09:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:09:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200503231824.KAA29839@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > The disk read is the same, it needs to see data > from the disk surface to keep the threshold detection > circuit from having false detects from noise and random > level shifts. Dwight, Thanks for the clarification. It's very interesting, and does explain a lot! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Wed Mar 23 20:11:49 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:11:49 -0500 Subject: TU10 vs TE10 In-Reply-To: <16962.7160.671000.429903@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: > > Ashley> What's the difference between a TU10 and a TE10 DEC magtape > Ashley> drive? > > I don't remember a TE10. There's a TE16, which as far as I remember > is a TU16 with the mechanics made more user-friendly (easier tape > loading and all that). > > Looking at the RSTS code, there is no trace of TE10 in there, so it > looks like the difference is invisible to software. > > paul The tape drive that's currently on ebay with the 11/34 in the short cabinet has a label that says TE10 on the back. The seller sent me some pictures that appear to say TE10, and he says it's a model TE10. Take a look at ebay item 5178288415. Looks like a TU10 with different style buttons on the control panel. Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:15:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:15:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <51791.64.139.41.130.1111608891.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > In principle, with much more complex (and bigger) prenibblization and > postnibblization code the Disk II could have used 80 nybble values to > encode a 256-byte sector into 324 nybbles rather than 342, but that > would not have been enough to get even a single additional sector per > track. It would have if it wasn't decided that 80 or so synchronization bytes were absolutely necessary between each sector. I still don't quite understand what reasoning went into that particular aspect of the design. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:18:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:18:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <4241D844.60604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Congratulations, Mr. Reporter! You're the very first Classic > Computers list member ever to make my killfile. I object! I thought I had that singular distinction. Let it be known that I consider this an insult. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:19:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:19:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <010701c52feb$68a76cb0$18406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Keys wrote: > You almost have to stop each day as good things do not last long. Here in > Houston some people sit in the Goodwill all day for 8 hours getting the > stuff as it is being put out. There are fights sometime. Wow, and I thought I had no life... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:21:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, David H. Barr wrote: > Trying desparately to bring this back on topic: what do you think a > fair price would be for a 14 or 15" monitor? What about keyboards, > mice, assorted cords, old software? I know someone mentioned a "price > guide" at about $20 a pop; I'll try and include a few of those on next > years' budget. I guess since -you- are the most likely people to buy > this sort of thing, how much would you be willing to pay? $5 for a 14-15" VGA monitor is not unreasonable. People are literally paying to get rid of them now. What Goodwill should do is palletize all the thousands of CRTs they could be getting and selling them to overseas refurbishers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:32:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:32:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323153609.G69861@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > BTW, how do you think Chaplin would have felt about his heirs selling his > character to IBM?? If I ever become famous (preferably NOT for something like mass murder) I'm going to get a lawyer to draw up a document insisting that if my heirs do sell my image it will only be to appear in beer commercials with young bikini-clad hotties hanging off me like cheap jewelry. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 23 20:40:21 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:40:21 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42422895.50101@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> Congratulations, Mr. Reporter! You're the very first Classic >>Computers list member ever to make my killfile. > > > I object! I thought I had that singular distinction. Let it be known > that I consider this an insult. Nah, I think I started to killfile you once, and then decided you're too much fun. In an auto-wreck-by-the-road sort of way.... Doc From vcf at siconic.com Wed Mar 23 20:41:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:41:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <424209E4.9060305@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I know someone mentioned a "price > > guide" at about $20 a pop; I'll try and include a few of those on next > > years' budget. I guess since -you- are the most likely people to buy > > this sort of thing, how much would you be willing to pay? > > The price guide doesn't sound real practical too me, but maybe if you've > got a few sharper people in a few of the stores.... I don't know > accurate price guides are anyhow. We don't really want Ebay type prices > at Goodwill. I suggested the price guide, and the price guide I specifically suggested was Michael Nadeau's _Collectible Microcomputers_. I assisted with the editing of the pricing in that book, and I regularly appraise all manner of computer collectibles for varied purposes, and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows my feelings about eBay by now (summary: eBay bad), so it should most certainly go without saying that the book does NOT proffer "eBay" prices. Looking up a computer model in a price guide and picking a price out of the price range suggested, or in the very least using it as a general guide for selecting a price is, I believe, a few steps below designing rockets. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 23 20:43:26 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:43:26 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers References: Message-ID: <004201c5301b$4183bcd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:32 PM Subject: RE: History of notebook computers > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > BTW, how do you think Chaplin would have felt about his heirs selling his > > character to IBM?? > > If I ever become famous (preferably NOT for something like mass murder) > I'm going to get a lawyer to draw up a document insisting that if my heirs > do sell my image it will only be to appear in beer commercials with young > bikini-clad hotties hanging off me like cheap jewelry. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > So commercials with Sellam and a gay rugby team? Better make sure you get a good lawyer and be very specific! From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 23 21:33:29 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:33:29 -0500 Subject: HP "Field Guide" ? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323215721.02e405c8@mail.netsync.net> Is there a "field guide" for HP 9000/300 systems like we have for DEC? I would like to find more info on, for example, the 98547A RGB video interface, 7958B Opt 550 disk drive unit, etc. Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, but smaller) which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the part number: A3057674-11. It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go through the edge connector. Can't find anything while searching on the A3057 portion of the p/n (Axxxx is a type of part numbering scheme HP used for some boards and stuff) nor on many combinations of parts of the p/n. Thanks for your help. BTW, while perusing the 'Net through Google looking for DEC SCSI boards I found an RQZX1 (M5977) for Unibus for 'only' $2999.00 through a reseller . A Qbus RQZX1 was pegged at the same price. Geeez, my wife is hoping to get only $2500 for her used 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee with 106k. Maybe they'll take a swap plus a few bucks for either one? :-) Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer Antique Wireless Association, Inc. Jamestown, New York USA email: cfandt at netsync.net Electronic/Electrical Historian URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 23 21:30:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:30:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <51791.64.139.41.130.1111608891.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <53627.64.139.41.130.1111635001.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Sellam wrote: > It would have if it wasn't decided that 80 or so synchronization bytes > were absolutely necessary between each sector. I still don't quite > understand what reasoning went into that particular aspect of the > design. Suppose you format a disk on a Disk II that is 10% fast. Now you stick the disk in a drive that is 10% slow, and write a sector. The 342 nibbles of the data field will take up the space on the disk that was formerly used by 417 nibbles on the disk, or the 342 nibbles of the data field plus 75 nibbles of the gap. And I've ignored the header and trailer bytes, and the new self-sync written in the gap and after the end, so it's actually worse than that. As it is, 80 nibbles of gap isn't quite enough to allow for +/-10% speed variation and leave still leave enough self-sync bytes, but if they reduced it, writing a sector might overwrite the address field of the next sector, rendering that sector unreadable (even though the data field of that sector would still be intact). They couldn't fit 17 sectors without seriously compromising the allowable speed tolerance. Some copy-protected games crammed in more by writing one giant sector per track. Eric From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 23 21:46:33 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:46:33 -0500 Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 Message-ID: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Noob warning. Can anyone help me identify the part numbers of the cable(s) which would be used to connect an RX50 to an RQDXn (mine's a 3) in a BA23 case? Say an 11/53 or 11/73 type of machine? Thanks, De From william.layer at comcast.net Wed Mar 23 22:00:57 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:00:57 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <010701c52feb$68a76cb0$18406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20050323220057.135970d1.william.layer@comcast.net> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:19:30 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Keys wrote: > > > You almost have to stop each day as good things do not last long. Here in > > Houston some people sit in the Goodwill all day for 8 hours getting the > > stuff as it is being put out. There are fights sometime. > > Wow, and I thought I had no life... In the good (bad) old days, there was this place in Lauderdale called "Digger's Delight", which was part of the local Goodwill stores. Big concrete warehouse with a dirt parking lot, and the staff would (literally) bring the goods out by the gaylord, as they were processed. There were regulars there, the same folks you saw everytime you went in. It didn't take long to form the opinion that this was the only context in which these people were ever, in their entire lives, referred to as 'regular'. They would descend upon the goods in a manner not inconsistent with a pack of hyenas staking a fresh kill. There were arguments, fights, and items smashed out of spite or contempt. Come for the stuff, stay for the spectacle. I nabbed a lot of good things there over time, but it was usually an unpleasant interaction, to say the least. I typically left muttering something to myself along the lines of 'trash fighting over trash', or something even less flattering. I miss that place. Bill-- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From fernande at internet1.net Wed Mar 23 22:02:48 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:02:48 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42423BE8.4030600@internet1.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looking up a computer model in a price guide and picking a price out of > the price range suggested, or in the very least using it as a general > guide for selecting a price is, I believe, a few steps below designing > rockets. No it's not rocket science, but I never cease to be amazed at what some people find difficult. If a person doesn't know about something, or have any interest in it, and possibly won't give much attention to detail, you'll end up with Apple //s priced as Apple 1s because they're both Apples. Granted, you aren't going to find an Apple 1 at Goodwill, but it could be Macs and Apple //s, or some other brand. Furthermore, they'll be no telling them any different because they looked it up in the book! In other words, for someone outside the realm of classic/used computers the book is taken as law, if even applied to the correct model, when the book is actually only a guide understood by someone inside the realm of classic computers. Besides, Goodwill isn't the place to buy classic computers, its the place to buy old stuff other people didn't want. They may have a classic computer, but I'm not going to give them a classic computer price, because Goodwill doesn't specialize selling in classic computers. They specialize in selling old stuff other people don't want, and they've treated it as such..... they probably know nothing about it, they haven't tested it beyond possibly trying to power it up. They got it handed to them buy someone that pulled up in a car, asked the person if they wanted a receipt, plopped it into a cart, and later someone shot it with a price gun and plopped it on a shelf next to the pile of cheap cameras, and then 2 customers picked it up shook it, and a third put a hair dryer on top of it, because the hair dryer was in the way of them looking at a Lloyd cassette deck. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From allain at panix.com Wed Mar 23 22:20:41 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:20:41 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: Message-ID: <006c01c53028$d80bbc40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > $5 for a 14-15" VGA monitor is not unreasonable. BTW if people in the NY,NJ,CT,MA area are looking for such things let me know. I regularly route 1~3 of them a month to charity, typically with a working P1 system. John A. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Mar 23 22:27:36 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:27:36 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <010701c52feb$68a76cb0$18406b43@66067007> <20050323220057.135970d1.william.layer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <006e01c53029$cfacfc20$45406b43@66067007> They moved it to St. Paul and called G-TOO, I think it's still open but it's not the same. They auction off the computer stuff in silent auctions. Most times they never bring it out because of the fights there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Layer" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:19:30 -0800 (PST) > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Keys wrote: >> >> > You almost have to stop each day as good things do not last long. Here >> > in >> > Houston some people sit in the Goodwill all day for 8 hours getting the >> > stuff as it is being put out. There are fights sometime. >> >> Wow, and I thought I had no life... > > In the good (bad) old days, there was this place in Lauderdale called > "Digger's Delight", which was part of the local Goodwill stores. Big > concrete warehouse with a dirt parking lot, and the staff would > (literally) bring the goods out by the gaylord, as they were processed. > > There were regulars there, the same folks you saw everytime you went in. > It didn't take long to form the opinion that this was the only context in > which these people were ever, in their entire lives, referred to as > 'regular'. They would descend upon the goods in a manner not inconsistent > with a pack of hyenas staking a fresh kill. There were arguments, fights, > and items smashed out of spite or contempt. Come for the stuff, stay for > the spectacle. > > I nabbed a lot of good things there over time, but it was usually an > unpleasant interaction, to say the least. I typically left muttering > something to myself along the lines of 'trash fighting over trash', or > something even less flattering. > > I miss that place. > > Bill-- > > --------------------------------------------- > -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- > --------------------------------------------------- > -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- > -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- > -------------------------------- > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 01:41:30 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:41:30 +0800 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <16961.44379.101138.486052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit> <011d01c52fce$f6666000$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <16961.44379.101138.486052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:54:35 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > If it's a voltage clamp, then either back to back zeners, or a MOV > should work. MOV might be the better choice since they are explicitly > designed as protective devices. Zeners would be ok in the larger > sizes, but the small ones may be fragile enough that they don't do > well in this application. > I agree. MOVs are designed to be dirt-easy and robust to boot. If I were to do it, I'd parallel a couple of 5W zeners BEHIND a suitably sized MOV just to be on the safe side. /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 01:43:15 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:43:15 +0800 Subject: More Books today In-Reply-To: <00b001c52fd9$b1238170$18406b43@66067007> References: <00b001c52fd9$b1238170$18406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:54:05 -0600, Keys wrote: > Architecture Handbook 1983 and TTL Cookbook by Don Lancaster 1976 (fifth Ooh ooh. Don Lancaster book. :-) Gimme a hoot if you have duplicates for any of Don's books. /wai-sun From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 01:59:08 2005 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:59:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Gift Catalog Message-ID: <20050324075908.35012.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> I was playing with an old copy of Acrobat at work and created a pdf of an old Apple Gift Catalog I had laying around. Thought I'd let anyone interested know about it. It was interesting seeing how many items in it I had picked up at one time or another. You can find it in my Apple 2 area at http://www.trailingedge.com/apple2/ in the "History" section as "Old Apple Gift Catalog". Side note, are there other options for creating a pdf like this or is getting my own copy of Acrobat it? Thanks From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Mar 24 02:45:47 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:45:47 +1200 Subject: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype References: <000201c52f27$0b36add0$2301a8c0@solsevfit><011d01c52fce$f6666000$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com><16961.44379.101138.486052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <06e601c5304d$dfaf4d70$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wai-Sun Chia" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 7:41 PM Subject: Re: "Thyractors" on the DEC LT33 modified ASR33 Teletype > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:54:35 -0500, Paul Koning > wrote: > >> If it's a voltage clamp, then either back to back zeners, or a MOV >> should work. MOV might be the better choice since they are >> explicitly >> designed as protective devices. Zeners would be ok in the larger >> sizes, but the small ones may be fragile enough that they don't do >> well in this application. >> > > I agree. MOVs are designed to be dirt-easy and robust to boot. If I > were to do it, I'd parallel a couple of 5W zeners BEHIND a suitably > sized MOV just to be on the safe side. > > /wai-sun Seems to be not well known that MOVs die - slowly but inevitably - with use. Every time they shunt a surge, they shorten their useful life. The harder they work, the shorter their life. If they are known to be earning their keep, they should be routinely replaced to maintain the required/designed protection level. For a low power application like this I'd be inclined to use back-to-back (in series opposing) zeners with suitable ratings. Make 'em big enuff and they'll last forever. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 18/03/2005 From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Mar 24 02:58:17 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:58:17 +0000 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:58:22 EST." <20050323165822.37e337e7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200503240858.IAA20001@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Scott Stevens said: > I'm nearly ready to pay serious money for a clean working original IBM > EGA monitor, if I could find one. I have an original IBM AT with EGA > card, and it seems criminal to even power it up with some crappy clone > VGA card in it. . . I was in the same position when my (Samsung) EGA monitor died (now fixed...) and I came across a _mono_ ega monitor, labelled "Indus", that apparently came from some point-of-sale installation, which stood in in the meantime. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 24 03:15:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 03:15:58 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <4241FEB0.4010900@gjcp.net> References: <42406C66.5060208@internet1.net> <4241D658.6010502@oldskool.org> <4241FEB0.4010900@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4242854E.90207@oldskool.org> >> And those "trash PC's" are what I run the company systems on. If they work for you, then that's fine. I've had way too many odd hardware problems and general incompatibility with Packard Bell clones that I've completely stopped touching them, let alone use them. About the only thing Packard Bell did right was bundle Geoworks Ensemble instead of Windows, but that is where I'll end my involvement in this thread. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 24 05:08:04 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:08:04 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:32:56 PST." Message-ID: <200503241108.j2OB84sq009139@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: ... >do sell my image it will only be to appear in beer commercials with young >bikini-clad hotties hanging off me like cheap jewelry. see. that's *just* the kind of thing that will keep you out of a kill file. as we say in chat-land, "ROTFLMAO!" -brad From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 24 06:44:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:44:08 -0500 Subject: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323215721.02e405c8@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050324074408.00abb100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:33 PM 3/23/05 -0500, you wrote: >Is there a "field guide" for HP 9000/300 systems like we have for DEC? I >would like to find more info on, for example, the 98547A RGB video >interface, 7958B Opt 550 disk drive unit, etc. There's no HP Field Guide that I know of. Several times I've statrted to put up some webpages about some of the more popular HP units but I never finished it. > >Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide >assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, >but smaller) FWIW The small cards are called "DIO" or "DIO-I" cards. The larger cards are called "DIO-II" cards. I don't remember what DIO stands for though. But I could probably find out if it matters. which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the >part number: A3057674-11. > >It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O >processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go >through the edge connector. Can't find anything while searching on the >A3057 portion of the p/n (Axxxx is a type of part numbering scheme HP used >for some boards and stuff) nor on many combinations of parts of the p/n. Darn! I've seen those cards but I can't remember what they are. I'll have to go check the HP catalogs but they're across town so it will be at least a couple of days before I can. Joe > >Thanks for your help. > >BTW, while perusing the 'Net through Google looking for DEC SCSI boards I >found an RQZX1 (M5977) for Unibus for 'only' $2999.00 through a reseller >. A Qbus RQZX1 was pegged at the same >price. Geeez, my wife is hoping to get only $2500 for her used 1993 Jeep >Grand Cherokee with 106k. Maybe they'll take a swap plus a few bucks for >either one? :-) > >Regards, Chris F. > >NNNN > > >Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer >Antique Wireless Association, Inc. >Jamestown, New York USA > email: cfandt at netsync.net > Electronic/Electrical Historian > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 24 07:24:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:24:13 -0500 Subject: HP "Field Guide" ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:33 PM 3/23/05 -0500, you wrote: > >Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide >assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, >but smaller) which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the >part number: A3057674-11. > >It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O >processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go >through the edge connector. Can't find anything while searching on the >A3057 portion of the p/n (Axxxx is a type of part numbering scheme HP used >for some boards and stuff) nor on many combinations of parts of the p/n. Darn! I've seen those cards but I can't remember what they are. OK I finally got the grey matter working and I remember what those cards are. They're DOS coprocessor cards. Yes, your HP can run MS-DOS. Somewhere I have some of the cards but I never found software for them. If you got a drive with your system, look at it carefully and see if it has the necessary SW. If you find the SW, I'd love to get a copy. Joe From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Thu Mar 24 06:17:13 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:17:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323215721.02e405c8@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide > assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, > but smaller) which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the > part number: A3057674-11. > It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O > processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go It could be a Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, meant for models 310, 320, 330 or 350. Requires HPUX 5.1 or later. The card pn is 98286A, the software pn is 98531A and the combined package pn is 98286S. carlos. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at dontspammeieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 24 08:15:28 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:15:28 -0500 Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> Dennis Boone wrote: >Can anyone help me identify the part numbers of the cable(s) which >would be used to connect an RX50 to an RQDXn (mine's a 3) in a >BA23 case? Say an 11/53 or 11/73 type of machine? > > Jerome Fine replies: The BA23 normally arrives (i.e. has as standard hardware) a distribution panel for the RX50 dual floppy drive and RD5n hard drives. A 50 pin flat cable with a female header at both ends is used to connect the controller (RQDX3 in your case) to this distribution panel. The distribution panel has a 40 pin connection available in approximately the centre (although only the connection headers are visible through holes in the bulkhead between the distribution panel and the area which holds the floppy and / or hard drives). The cable to be used is a 40 pin cable with a female header at both ends and usually about 10" in length (when used in a BA23). For the hard drive (usually only one in a BA23 - although 2 hard drives can be accommodated if you know how), a standard 20 pin cable and 34 pin cable with a female header at one end (distribution panel) and an edge connector at the other end (hard disk drive). In all cases, the cables are the same as used in a PC. Sorry, I do not have the DEC cable part numbers. Be careful! The first (only if you are using only one) hard disk drive uses DS3. The RX50 rarely needs any settings changed - I would not know how if asked since I have never used more than a single (dual) RX50. In most cases, a BA23 is used with a quad CPU board which contains boot ROMs. This is not required, but is much more convenient. The 11/73 requires separate memory. The 11/53 contains on board memory, but allows additional memory in the normal manner. Be sure to wire wrap all memory correctly. With an 11/73, only 3 boards are required since there is a single DL type port (quad 11/73 of course) on the 11/73. You will need the appropriate cabinet kit. The second board is memory and the third board is the RQDX3. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 08:20:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:20:40 +0000 Subject: Emulating tapes/disk via linux/*bsd ? Message-ID: <1111674040.2356.34.camel@weka.localdomain> Quick check to see if anyone's ever tried this. (where "tried" = "written some code to do so") In theory one could hook up a system running linux/*bsd with a SCSI controller present acting as a target rather than initiator, and have the machine pretend to be a tape drive, hard disk etc. I have no idea if the linux / *bsd kernels (or card drivers) support running as a target, or if the necessary hooks are present into user- land (eg. via 'sg') to allow user code to do the emulation, though. Just thought I'd ask if anyone's attempted to do it before... (personally I can write sg device code, but I'm by no means a kernel hacker) cheers J. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 08:31:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:31:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <42422895.50101@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Nah, I think I started to killfile you once, and then decided you're > too much fun. In an auto-wreck-by-the-road sort of way.... Yeah, those are ... a hoot. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 08:32:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <004201c5301b$4183bcd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > If I ever become famous (preferably NOT for something like mass murder) > > I'm going to get a lawyer to draw up a document insisting that if my heirs > > do sell my image it will only be to appear in beer commercials with young > > bikini-clad hotties hanging off me like cheap jewelry. > > So commercials with Sellam and a gay rugby team? Better make sure you get a > good lawyer and be very specific! Well, as long as they're hot. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Mar 24 08:36:56 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:36:56 +0100 Subject: Emulating tapes/disk via linux/*bsd ? In-Reply-To: <1111674040.2356.34.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111674040.2356.34.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050324143655.GP31898@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-03-24 14:20:40 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote in message <1111674040.2356.34.camel at weka.localdomain>: > I have no idea if the linux / *bsd kernels (or card drivers) support > running as a target, or if the necessary hooks are present into user- > land (eg. via 'sg') to allow user code to do the emulation, though. Linux doesn't feature target mode SCSI, but at some time, there were at least some patches available for at least some controllers. Some folks tried to do IP-over-SCSI. I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that at least one of today's BSDs ships along with target mode. IIRC it's even used in some embedded storage systems. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 08:38:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:38:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <53627.64.139.41.130.1111635001.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Suppose you format a disk on a Disk II that is 10% fast. Now you stick > the disk in a drive that is 10% slow, and write a sector. The 342 > nibbles of the data field will take up the space on the disk that was > formerly used by 417 nibbles on the disk, or the 342 nibbles of the > data field plus 75 nibbles of the gap. > > And I've ignored the header and trailer bytes, and the new self-sync > written in the gap and after the end, so it's actually worse than > that. > > As it is, 80 nibbles of gap isn't quite enough to allow for +/-10% speed > variation and leave still leave enough self-sync bytes, but if they > reduced it, writing a sector might overwrite the address field of the > next sector, rendering that sector unreadable (even though the data > field of that sector would still be intact). > > They couldn't fit 17 sectors without seriously compromising the > allowable speed tolerance. If you're drive is spinning at 330RPM (10% fast) or 270RPM (10% slow) then your disk drives are so out of whack that you should *EXPECT* to have major problems. > Some copy-protected games crammed in more by writing one giant sector > per track. Right, but it shows it was possible. And there are tricks that one can employ, such as on the fly testing of the drive speed to adjust DOS timing loops, to ensure reliable writes at a more granular level. At least that's the theory I'm going to set out to prove. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 08:44:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:44:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <42423BE8.4030600@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Besides, Goodwill isn't the place to buy classic computers, its the > place to buy old stuff other people didn't want. They may have a > classic computer, but I'm not going to give them a classic computer > price, because Goodwill doesn't specialize selling in classic computers. > They specialize in selling old stuff other people don't want, and > they've treated it as such..... they probably know nothing about it, > they haven't tested it beyond possibly trying to power it up. They got > it handed to them buy someone that pulled up in a car, asked the person > if they wanted a receipt, plopped it into a cart, and later someone shot > it with a price gun and plopped it on a shelf next to the pile of cheap > cameras, and then 2 customers picked it up shook it, and a third put a > hair dryer on top of it, because the hair dryer was in the way of them > looking at a Lloyd cassette deck. Since Goodwill gets offered so much of this stuff and then refuses because they don't think they can sell it, I was offering a suggested solution (to a GW representative of sorts) on how they might do it. If you want to see old computers sold for cheap through Goodwill, why not offer solutions also? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 08:55:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 06:55:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Gift Catalog In-Reply-To: <20050324075908.35012.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > I was playing with an old copy of Acrobat at work and > created a pdf of an old Apple Gift Catalog I had > laying around. Thought I'd let anyone interested know > about it. It was interesting seeing how many items in > it I had picked up at one time or another. You can > find it in my Apple 2 area at > http://www.trailingedge.com/apple2/ in the "History" > section as "Old Apple Gift Catalog". Oooh, I want the latch-hook rug kit! Too cool! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 24 08:57:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:57:28 -0500 Subject: Emulating tapes/disk via linux/*bsd ? References: <1111674040.2356.34.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16962.54616.0.551253@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Quick check to see if anyone's ever tried this. (where "tried" Jules> = "written some code to do so") Jules> In theory one could hook up a system running linux/*bsd with a Jules> SCSI controller present acting as a target rather than Jules> initiator, and have the machine pretend to be a tape drive, Jules> hard disk etc. Jules> I have no idea if the linux / *bsd kernels (or card drivers) Jules> support running as a target, or if the necessary hooks are Jules> present into user- land (eg. via 'sg') to allow user code to Jules> do the emulation, though. I've heard of targets for iSCSI, which of course is just SCSI over a different type of cable. Since a lot of OS (including Linux) support iSCSI initiators, if you need SCSI emulation without weird hardware hacking, an iSCSI target may be a good way to go. I don't have pointers to specific examples handy. paul From korpela at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 11:01:09 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:01:09 -0800 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:43:26 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > > I see. And this is where I'm confused. Beneath Apple DOS shows diagrams > > that indicate there's a clock pulse between every data bit. So either > > that diagram is wrong, and there are no clock pulses, > > The authors of Beneath Apple DOS had no clue whatsoever as to what was > going on at that level, so they apparently just assumed that it worked > the same as other disk controllers in that regard. > > There are no clock bits. That's the whole point of GCR. Either that or they read the patent application.... In the patent, Woz describes the (13 sector) nybble format as being interleaved data and clock bits, with the clock bits all set to 1. While this has a different meaning than clock bits in an [M]FM controller, you can still think of them as clock bits. I would assume the patent text is an accurate description of what Woz said he designed. Eric From adamg at pobox.com Thu Mar 24 00:56:47 2005 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:56:47 -0500 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller Message-ID: <20050324065646.GA94817@silme.pair.com> Some good info and references have already been posted, but another place to look is "Beneath Apple ProDOS" (the follow-up to "Beneath Apple DOS"). It covers GCR, nibblizing and the state machine, and includes a dump of the PROM. It references "Understanding The Apple II", which I do not have, so I don't know if their content is orthogonal. Also, I remember hearing that there's some info in the manual that came with the Disk ][. -- Adam From bpechter at monmouth.com Thu Mar 24 09:37:12 2005 From: bpechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:12 -0500 Subject: TE10/TU10\ Message-ID: <4242DEA8.5080000@monmouth.com> > > > Message: 3 Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:11:49 -0500 From: "Ashley Carder" > Subject: RE: TU10 vs TE10 To: "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: > Content-Type: > text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >>>>>>>> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> Ashley> What's the difference between a TU10 and a TE10 DEC magtape >>> Ashley> drive? >>> >>> I don't remember a TE10. There's a TE16, which as far as I remember >>> is a TU16 with the mechanics made more user-friendly (easier tape >>> loading and all that). >>> >>> Looking at the RSTS code, there is no trace of TE10 in there, so it >>> looks like the difference is invisible to software. >>> >>> paul >> >> > >The tape drive that's currently on ebay with the 11/34 in the short >cabinet has a label that says TE10 on the back. The seller sent >me some pictures that appear to say TE10, and he says it's a model >TE10. Take a look at ebay item 5178288415. Looks like a TU10 >with different style buttons on the control panel. > >Ashley > The TE10 uses the TE16 transport with a Unibus TM11 interface. The TU10 used the TU16 transport with the Unibus TM11 interface. The TE16 is the redesigned version of the TU16 with a better tape path, auto-rewind to BOT after tape load etc. The TE10 is the better unit although both are the same spec 800bpi/1600bpi (IIRC) and 45ips (or is it 45ips rewind speed?). I used to do a lot of Field Service on the DEC tape drives and the TE16 was pretty reliable -- with only the tape locking mechanism breaking (same part as one of the Kennedy drives). Bill Bill From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Mar 24 10:08:00 2005 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:08:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple Gift Catalog In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050324160800.75434.qmail@web81008.mail.yahoo.com> I really wanted that too, instead I ended up with someone very sweet at the time who saw it, knew I wanted it and went off and made one herself for me. Still have it and still love it. :) --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com > wrote: > > > I was playing with an old copy of Acrobat at work > and > > created a pdf of an old Apple Gift Catalog I had > > laying around. Thought I'd let anyone interested > know > > about it. It was interesting seeing how many > items in > > it I had picked up at one time or another. You > can > > find it in my Apple 2 area at > > http://www.trailingedge.com/apple2/ in the > "History" > > section as "Old Apple Gift Catalog". > > Oooh, I want the latch-hook rug kit! > > Too cool! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 10:55:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <20050324065646.GA94817@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Adam Goldman wrote: > Some good info and references have already been posted, but another > place to look is "Beneath Apple ProDOS" (the follow-up to "Beneath Apple > DOS"). It covers GCR, nibblizing and the state machine, and includes a > dump of the PROM. It references "Understanding The Apple II", which I do > not have, so I don't know if their content is orthogonal. I expected the info in BAP to be identical to that in BAD, so I didn't bother looking. Shame on me. I'll check out my copy of BAP to see if there are any additional insights. Thanks for the tip! > Also, I remember hearing that there's some info in the manual that came > with the Disk ][. None. I've looked. Or at least, I've looked in the DOS Manual, which came with the Disk ][. Was there any other? Perhaps one of those smaller booklets that Apple used to send out with their hardware in the 1977-1978 timeframe? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 10:57:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:57:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > There are no clock bits. That's the whole point of GCR. > > Either that or they read the patent application.... In the patent, > Woz describes the (13 sector) nybble format as being interleaved data > and clock bits, with the clock bits all set to 1. While this has a > different meaning than clock bits in an [M]FM controller, you can > still think of them as clock bits. I would assume the patent text is > an accurate description of what Woz said he designed. I haven't had a chance to read the patent yet but this description might be, shall we say, a "figurative" description of what's going on at the physical level? Everything I know so far would preclude the possibility of there being clock bits interleaved with the data bits, as Eric confirmed. Otherwise, there would be no point to the GCR method. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 24 11:17:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:17:17 GMT Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: Cables for RX50 in BA23" (Mar 24, 9:15) References: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10503241717.ZM3639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24 2005, 9:15, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote: > > >Can anyone help me identify the part numbers of the cable(s) which > >would be used to connect an RX50 to an RQDXn (mine's a 3) in a > >BA23 case? Say an 11/53 or 11/73 type of machine? > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > The BA23 normally arrives (i.e. has as standard > hardware) a distribution panel for the RX50 dual > floppy drive and RD5n hard drives. A 50 pin flat > cable with a female header at both ends is used to > connect the controller (RQDX3 in your case) to this > distribution panel. The distribution panel has a > 40 pin connection available in approximately the > centre (although only the connection headers are > visible through holes in the bulkhead between the > distribution panel and the area which holds the > floppy and / or hard drives). The cable to be used > is a 40 pin cable with a female header at both ends > and usually about 10" in length (when used in a BA23). Actually it's a 34-way cable, just like the 34-way cable used for a PC 3.5" drive, though without the "twist" that most PC drive cables have. The RX50 uses an almost-standard SA400-style interface . -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 24 11:28:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:28:41 -0500 Subject: Emulating tapes/disk via linux/*bsd ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:20:40 GMT." <1111674040.2356.34.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503241728.j2OHSf8t024279@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > >In theory one could hook up a system running linux/*bsd with a SCSI >controller present acting as a target rather than initiator, and have >the machine pretend to be a tape drive, hard disk etc. > >I have no idea if the linux / *bsd kernels (or card drivers) support >running as a target, or if the necessary hooks are present into user- >land (eg. via 'sg') to allow user code to do the emulation, though. I have *really* wanted to do this to emulate disks for some odd scsi machines I have (disk which have nonstandard block sizes - don't ask). I looked really hard and found some things close, but not quite. No actual code, however. There was some talk about doing in the linux world. I have not found anything working, however. I did find a commercial product but I think it was tape oriented. Ideally I'd like a linux kernel module which worked with a common scsi card. I'd be most happy if the module/driver would allow me to write the actual target code in userland. Please let me/us know if you find anything. I know it can be done but don't have the time to write a driver. I could swear I did see some hacks to a qlogic card which came close. -brad From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Mar 24 11:29:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill Message-ID: <200503241729.JAA00426@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >Sellam wrote: >> It would have if it wasn't decided that 80 or so synchronization bytes >> were absolutely necessary between each sector. I still don't quite >> understand what reasoning went into that particular aspect of the >> design. > >Suppose you format a disk on a Disk II that is 10% fast. Now you stick >the disk in a drive that is 10% slow, and write a sector. The 342 >nibbles of the data field will take up the space on the disk that was >formerly used by 417 nibbles on the disk, or the 342 nibbles of the >data field plus 75 nibbles of the gap. > >And I've ignored the header and trailer bytes, and the new self-sync >written in the gap and after the end, so it's actually worse than >that. > >As it is, 80 nibbles of gap isn't quite enough to allow for +/-10% speed >variation and leave still leave enough self-sync bytes, but if they >reduced it, writing a sector might overwrite the address field of the >next sector, rendering that sector unreadable (even though the data >field of that sector would still be intact). Of course, when did you see a drive that is anywhere near 10% off in speed? Even the older belt drives could hold better than +-5%. 5% is over one strobe maker per second ( for the older disk with stobe marks ). The newer drives with electronic commutating can hold much better than that. Dwight > >They couldn't fit 17 sectors without seriously compromising the >allowable speed tolerance. > >Some copy-protected games crammed in more by writing one giant sector >per track. > >Eric > > From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 24 11:59:31 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:59:31 -0800 Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050324175932.E22A82C00A@pail.bensene.com> Well, as Tony surmised, the blower motor itself was bad. The odd part is that there were two RK05's in the system, and both of the blower motors were toast. I'm wondering if there was something environmental about the storage (dry, insulated/sheetrocked garage, but no heat) that did something to the motors that caused them to die in both drives. I took the blower motor from the parts drive, and it was fine. It was made by a different manufacturer, and seemed much more robust. I now have one drive that will work. I'm hoping that I can, with the procedure Tony mentioned for tearing the motors down, perhaps cobble together another motor, or perhaps take the motor to a motor repair place and see if the windings can be repaired. It's interesting that in order to remove the blower motor, you have to destroy the foam seal that seals the motor to the electronics bay, in order to get to the fourth allen head cap screw that secures the motor to the drive base. I have to improvise and make my own new foam filter I put the good motor back in the drive. The 2nd drive, as it turns out, also had the upper head crashed at some point in time, it has a lot of oxide on it, and shows signs of getting hot, so to get that 2nd drive running (once the blower motor issue is resolved), I'll have to replace the top head. My question now is, do the heads have to be replaced in sets, or can one head be replaced? Once a head is replaced, does the drive have to be aligned in any way? I've read the head replacement procedure, and it suggests it, but I don't have an RK05 alignment pack, which pretty much precludes doing that. Is there a chance that just replacing the head, being careful to make sure it is properly seated and that the torque on the holddown set screws is correct, that the drive will "just work"? I have a good set of heads from the 'scrap' drive. By the way, an RK05 drive will indeed load the heads, go READY and give "ON CYL" status with no controller connected, so long as the terminator is installed in the last slot of the electronics backplane in the drive, and a good cartridge is installed. Now that I have one drive that seems healthy, the next step is to figure out what is going on with the RK8E...it seems that one bit in all reads from the drive is stuck on. Probably a bad bus driver, I hope. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 24 12:13:08 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:13:08 -0600 Subject: Apple Gift Catalog In-Reply-To: <20050324075908.35012.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050324120949.0c2f2030@localhost> I have an open source print driver for winders that makes a pdf out of anything you can print. It acts like a printer to any win program that can print. http://sector7g.wurzel6.de/pdfcreator/index_en.htm At 11:59 PM 3/23/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Side note, are there other options for creating a pdf >like this or is getting my own copy of Acrobat it? > >Thanks [Science] The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't. --Ernest (1st Baron) Rutherford (1871-1937) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Mar 24 12:03:35 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:03:35 -0800 Subject: AS400 and baby 36's for free References: <200503231812.j2NIC7V6029357@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <424300F7.74A1FCCE@msm.umr.edu> One of the 36's was salted with games and so forth by a bunch of old sysprogs. Most probably work. they were used for qa up to 2 years ago at a company that used to have software for them. I have several 36's and an old generation AS400 available for pickup in Los Angeles, along with twinax terminals, etc. You must pick up and I will just meet you, cleaning out storage locker. Hurry, will be closing it out hopefully this month. Dennis Boone wrote: From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Mar 24 13:16:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:16:58 -0500 Subject: History of notebook computers In-Reply-To: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050323193413.7466.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050324141658.2f126731.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:34:13 -0800 (PST) Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > It's one thing to comment on a specific article, but there's no reason > to indict a whole group of people and say that we're one notch about > fast food workers. That is not only incredibly stupid, it's direct > intolerance. He might as well have been talking about a race or > religion or nationality -- which surely would not have been tolerated > here. > > --- Kurt Huhn wrote: > > > > > Why is it that every time someone says the least thing "boo" about > > the media, you get your panties in a twist? Give it a rest. He's > > entitled to his opinion. It's not clear why somebody who questions the ethics of _one_ media outlet is automatically assumed to be questioning the ethics of _all_ media outlets. Enough said, I hope. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 24 13:37:08 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <40028.64.139.41.130.1111693028.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Eric wrote: > Either that or they read the patent application.... In the patent, > Woz describes the (13 sector) nybble format as being interleaved data > and clock bits, with the clock bits all set to 1. The patent does not describe the 13-sector format at all!!! It only describes an 11-sector non-GCR format that was never used by any software Apple actually publicly released. The patent is describing FM encoding, not GCR. The Disk II controller is capable of FM encoding, by explicity using only nibble patterns that have bits 7, 5, 3, and 1 set. In released versions of DOS, FM encoding is only used for the address field. There's no point in using GCR for the address field, as it only stores four bytes. So if the authors of Beneath Apple DOS based their description on the, patent, they clearly didn't actually understand it. For one thing, the hardware does not EVER automatically generate those clock bit, as Beneath Apple DOS claims. It doesn't do it if you write FM, and it doesn't do it if you write GCR. (The controller has no idea which you're using.) Nothing in the patent suggests that the hardware inserts clock bits. In fact, the patent pretty clearly explains that those clock bits are generated by software using the appropriate bit patterns. By the way, the reason that the 13-sector and 16-sector GCR data patterns, in which 8 channel bits are used to encode 5 or 6 data bits, are called nibbles (or nybbles) is a carryover from the FM format in which the 8 channel bits encode 4 data bits, a classical 4-bit nybble. > I would assume the patent text is > an accurate description of what Woz said he designed. It's an accurate description of the hardware, and of one way for software to use it. If you're writing a book about the product that actually shipped, you should: 1) Not assume that it works exactly the same way as a patent disclosure. 2) If you're going to use the patent as a source, take the time to actually understand what it says. Eric From fernande at internet1.net Thu Mar 24 13:59:14 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:59:14 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42431C12.3010703@internet1.net> I did offer some pricing suggestions. My biggest suggestion is to try and sell all of it, or at least a larger percentage than is currently done. Almost all of it should sell, at the right price. If there is error in the price it should be on the low side, not the high side, because the goal is too sell it, not have sit, and the only cost that needs to be covered is the handling cost. I just don't think a price guide is practical due to the volume that Goodwill sees, besides the other drawbacks I mentioned before. To someone outside the realm of classic computers the tendency will be to try and use the guide all the time, not use it at all, or mis-apply it. Using the guide all the time, can mean that if it's not in the guide, then it gets tossed, which would be a bad thing. I agree with you, in that it's not rocket science, but I don't think the application of a price guide would be done effectively, at Goodwill. I could be wrong, but from what I see locally, it's what I think. I do realize you are trying to help, and I appreciate your suggestions and input. You obviously don't want all the goodies tossed out either! It's just that I disagree with your suggestion of a price guide :-) Something else that David could try, would be to get a copy for himself, and right down a summary, in the form of a sheet or two, that each stores uses to price things, computer related. Like a quick reference sheet. It wouldn't be all inclusive, obviously, but I think it would get used more often than a book, yet not be taken as law, either. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Since Goodwill gets offered so much of this stuff and then refuses because > they don't think they can sell it, I was offering a suggested solution (to > a GW representative of sorts) on how they might do it. If you want to see > old computers sold for cheap through Goodwill, why not offer solutions > also? From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 24 14:16:11 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:16:11 -0500 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130><32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <40028.64.139.41.130.1111693028.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <03b001c530ae$529ada10$3a92a8c0@maggie> speaking of the beast - there is such a controller up on epay for 5$ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5176376632&rd=1 From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 24 14:50:39 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:50:39 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Market Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> This is a bit of a shameless plug but hmm its not off-topic so ;-) Been expanding my page a bit and this is the latest addition http://www.mansier.net/classifieds_1_3/ Any suggestions for more categories are welcome. You can ofcourse also offer any swap's there or give away's. As long as its about vintage computer stuff. Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 14:49:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:49:18 +0000 Subject: argh Message-ID: <1111697358.2356.98.camel@weka.localdomain> wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah click click click... I'm sure QIC-24 tape drives were designed for the sole purpose of driving me insane :/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 24 15:15:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:15:30 -0500 Subject: argh In-Reply-To: <1111697358.2356.98.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111697358.2356.98.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42432DF2.1060702@atarimuseum.com> Irwin tape drives too ;-) Curt Jules Richardson wrote: >wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh >waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah click click click... > >I'm sure QIC-24 tape drives were designed for the sole purpose of >driving me insane :/ > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 24 15:31:13 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:31:13 -0500 Subject: Dead Quadra 950 References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <40028.64.139.41.130.1111693028.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <03b001c530ae$529ada10$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <001c01c530b8$d84cba70$0500fea9@game> Anybody happen to have a working Mac Quadra 950 power supply they don't need? The one in my unit died. Located in the US. Thanks From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 24 15:32:05 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:32:05 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Market In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> Stefan, That looks very visually pleasing, but honestly there is already marketplace.vintage.org and the wanted/for sale forums on vintage-computer.com Does the group really need to thin itself out even more across another site? Curt Stefan wrote: > This is a bit of a shameless plug but hmm its not off-topic so ;-) > Been expanding my page a bit and this is the latest addition > http://www.mansier.net/classifieds_1_3/ > Any suggestions for more categories are welcome. You can ofcourse also > offer any swap's there or give away's. As long as its about vintage > computer stuff. > > Cheers, > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 15:34:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:34:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <42431C12.3010703@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I did offer some pricing suggestions. My biggest suggestion is to try > and sell all of it, or at least a larger percentage than is currently > done. Almost all of it should sell, at the right price. If there is I don't want to speak for Goodwill, and this thread is pretty much a nuisance by now, but this is naive and unrealistic. You're right that "almost all of it should sell", but there's only so much shelf space, there's only so much time you're willing to have crap cluttering your shelves, and there's only so much profit (or none at all, or even a loss) in the prices it would take to sell most of the PC crap that comes through the door. Goodwill stores are not setup to sell used commodity PC dreck. The whole purpose of suggesting the price guide was to sort out the GEMS from the majority of the crap that comes through (i.e. use it first as a field guide to understand what you have), then choose an appropriate price. > error in the price it should be on the low side, not the high side, > because the goal is too sell it, not have sit, and the only cost that > needs to be covered is the handling cost. Retail sales is more complicated than this. > Something else that David could try, would be to get a copy for himself, > and right down a summary, in the form of a sheet or two, that each > stores uses to price things, computer related. Like a quick reference > sheet. It wouldn't be all inclusive, obviously, but I think it would > get used more often than a book, yet not be taken as law, either. So using a price guide to identify specific computers that already has a suggested price range to choose from is too complicated, but sending out a "summary sheet" to all the stores that asks the same employees you just finished saying aren't capable of utilizing a price guide to apply totally subjective rules to select and price computers is not? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 15:42:41 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:42:41 -0600 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: <42431C12.3010703@internet1.net> Message-ID: As the originator of this branch of off-topic-shenanigans, I hereby declare this portion of the thread finished. Take it back to the floppy timing discussion, and thanks for all the fish. ?grin? -dhbarr. On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:34:06 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I did offer some pricing suggestions. My biggest suggestion is to try > > and sell all of it, or at least a larger percentage than is currently > > done. Almost all of it should sell, at the right price. If there is > > I don't want to speak for Goodwill, and this thread is pretty much a > nuisance by now, but this is naive and unrealistic. You're right that > "almost all of it should sell", but there's only so much shelf space, > there's only so much time you're willing to have crap cluttering your > shelves, and there's only so much profit (or none at all, or even a loss) > in the prices it would take to sell most of the PC crap that comes through > the door. Goodwill stores are not setup to sell used commodity PC dreck. > > The whole purpose of suggesting the price guide was to sort out the GEMS > from the majority of the crap that comes through (i.e. use it first as a > field guide to understand what you have), then choose an appropriate > price. > > > error in the price it should be on the low side, not the high side, > > because the goal is too sell it, not have sit, and the only cost that > > needs to be covered is the handling cost. > > Retail sales is more complicated than this. > > > Something else that David could try, would be to get a copy for himself, > > and right down a summary, in the form of a sheet or two, that each > > stores uses to price things, computer related. Like a quick reference > > sheet. It wouldn't be all inclusive, obviously, but I think it would > > get used more often than a book, yet not be taken as law, either. > > So using a price guide to identify specific computers that already has a > suggested price range to choose from is too complicated, but sending out a > "summary sheet" to all the stores that asks the same employees you just > finished saying aren't capable of utilizing a price guide to apply totally > subjective rules to select and price computers is not? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 24 15:50:20 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:50:20 +0100 Subject: Vintage Computer Market In-Reply-To: <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324224743.03343690@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hmm can't say I dont agree with you that there are already several more of these sites, perhaps even better but this is a bit of a try out for myself and also a replacement for something I am using now which attracts a few people every now and then. But what fun is it without any adverts ey ;-) Stefan. At 22:32 24-3-2005, you wrote: >Stefan, > > That looks very visually pleasing, but honestly there is already > marketplace.vintage.org and the wanted/for sale forums on > vintage-computer.com Does the group really need to thin itself out even > more across another site? > > >Curt > > >Stefan wrote: > >>This is a bit of a shameless plug but hmm its not off-topic so ;-) >>Been expanding my page a bit and this is the latest addition >>http://www.mansier.net/classifieds_1_3/ >>Any suggestions for more categories are welcome. You can ofcourse also >>offer any swap's there or give away's. As long as its about vintage >>computer stuff. From lcourtney at mvista.com Thu Mar 24 16:02:48 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:02:48 -0800 Subject: argh In-Reply-To: <42432DF2.1060702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: HP 9144/9145 :-[ Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 1:16 PM > To: General at smtp4.suscom.net; and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: argh > > > Irwin tape drives too ;-) > > > Curt > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > >wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh > >waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah click click click... > > > >I'm sure QIC-24 tape drives were designed for the sole purpose of > >driving me insane :/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Mar 24 16:50:31 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:50:31 -0500 Subject: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42434437.9040200@internet1.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I don't want to speak for Goodwill, and this thread is pretty much a > nuisance by now, but this is naive and unrealistic. You're right that > "almost all of it should sell", but there's only so much shelf space, > there's only so much time you're willing to have crap cluttering your > shelves, and there's only so much profit (or none at all, or even a loss) > in the prices it would take to sell most of the PC crap that comes through > the door. Goodwill stores are not setup to sell used commodity PC dreck. How can any loss from selling something cheap, be more expensive than tossing it? If it's tossed, there is zero money coming in, and the trash load is higher. Goodwill sells commodity PC stuff all the time, locally. If it's cheap enough, it will sell.....thats not naive and unrealistic. Shelf space could be a problem, but that will vary greatly store by store. >>error in the price it should be on the low side, not the high side, >>because the goal is too sell it, not have sit, and the only cost that >>needs to be covered is the handling cost. > > > Retail sales is more complicated than this. Goodwill makes money by selling volume. The more they sell the better. The product is free, the cost is lights, heat, ac, labor, trash disposal, etc. They're all pretty much fixed, unless donations skyrocket. Labor may change a bit, if the outgoing product is changed from trash to sales. > So using a price guide to identify specific computers that already has a > suggested price range to choose from is too complicated, but sending out a > "summary sheet" to all the stores that asks the same employees you just > finished saying aren't capable of utilizing a price guide to apply totally > subjective rules to select and price computers is not? I don't believe the majority of Goodwill employees have the interest, knowledge, patience, or time to go looking in a book for every computer that goes through Goodwill, only to find out that it's only worth $10, or it's not in the book, or to have it priced at $150, but only worth $15 because they mis-identify it, and they have to get a rack of jeans out on the sales floor. A sheet of guide lines can tell them, the monitors a small one, it's clean, and it says Trinitron, $15... bam they're done, next item. Let's see, it says Mac, the screen is part of it, it's pretty dirty, $10, bam done, next item. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 24 17:02:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:02:07 +0000 Subject: Apollos and tape drives... Message-ID: <1111705327.2356.128.camel@weka.localdomain> For the archives, as this might save someone else a lot of messing around one day :-) Was struggling to get a 400t to install from tape as it'd always die with "(open_input_volume) Unable to open volume. (unrecognized error status 28000B)" after doing a tape retension when loading from the boot tape. It was driving me nuts as I'd tested the drive and media elsewhere and it was fine, plus it was reading CALENDAR / INVOL / DOMAIN_OS from the boot tape fine. I spent a long time messing around with SCSI cabling, double and triple checking devices ID's etc. As a last resort I tried my 150MB SCSI tape drive - I've known it to be a little flakey with reads sometimes, but I just wanted to see if behaviour was different. Guess what - it's worked fine! The 150MB drive is a little newer than my 60MB one. All I can think of is that the 60MB drive takes a little too long to become ready again after the retension for the Apollo's liking, and it times out. Maybe it'd be fine on a slower machine (DN3000 / DN3500 say) but it isn't up to the job on a 400 series system. Anyway, maybe this'll save someone a bit of pain one day (it takes around 15 minutes each to run invol and calendar from tape and well over 30 for domain_os, so it's rather a slow process to keep on having to do! - I've probably run through it ten times in the last 2 days trying to figure out what was going on) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 17:20:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:20:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT and lame...don't read! Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <42434437.9040200@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > The product is free, the cost is lights, heat, ac, labor, trash > disposal, etc. They're all pretty much fixed, unless donations > skyrocket. Labor may change a bit, if the outgoing product is changed > from trash to sales. Sales are not free. There's a cost of doing business. You really need to read a book on business principles or take a local community college course on it. Better yet, start your own business to learn first hand. > > So using a price guide to identify specific computers that already has a > > suggested price range to choose from is too complicated, but sending out a > > "summary sheet" to all the stores that asks the same employees you just > > finished saying aren't capable of utilizing a price guide to apply totally > > subjective rules to select and price computers is not? > > I don't believe the majority of Goodwill employees have the interest, > knowledge, patience, or time to go looking in a book for every computer > that goes through Goodwill, only to find out that it's only worth $10, > or it's not in the book, or to have it priced at $150, but only worth > $15 because they mis-identify it, and they have to get a rack of jeans > out on the sales floor. First of all, have you ever seen Michael Nadeau's book? It's not, you should buy a copy (as should anyone at all interested in collecting vintage computers). It's pretty comprehensive. Second, if you really think it's quicker and more efficient for them to read and interpret a sheet of "guidelines" that will be obsolete and require re-publication and re-distribution every few months then you have never managed people before. > A sheet of guide lines can tell them, the > monitors a small one, it's clean, and it says Trinitron, $15... bam > they're done, next item. Let's see, it says Mac, the screen is part of > it, it's pretty dirty, $10, bam done, next item. Does it work? Do they know? Do they know how to test it? Did they test it 100%? Are all the colors present? Is there any distortion or is any part of the screen out of focus? What kind of dot pitch does it have? What's its maximum resolution? Did they test all the video modes for that monitor? Does it require degaussing? Did they burn it in for 24 hours to catch problems that only manifest themselves after continuous operation? Is all this worth $10 to $15? If it doesn't work, then what? Pay $10 to $15 to get rid of it? That's the current going rate in much of the US. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Mar 24 17:25:12 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:25:12 -0500 Subject: FT: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's Message-ID: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Hi, Due to my inability to read a EPay auction correctly, I'm now the "proud" owner of 25 CompacTape tapes. I was looking for CompacTape II's for my TK70 drive.. (oops) Anyone want to trade feel like trading some TK70's for my TK50's? No, I'm not looking for a 1:1 swapping ratio, though I'm not going to complain if it were. :-> All I was looking for was 6-10 CompacTape II's tapes to putter around w/ on my VAX. I also need to admit, I've not tried reading any of these tapes to see if they're good. All but one have their cases. They "look" reasonably well stored to me if that means anything. Dayton OH area. Would kinda prefer to avoid overseas shipping. (sorry) Prefer replies off list: dholland at woh.rr.com (Though honestly, I'm not entirely certain I'm proposing is a fair trade - so friendly comments to that effect will be listened to.) thanks, David From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 24 16:05:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:05:41 -0500 Subject: argh In-Reply-To: References: <42432DF2.1060702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050324170541.00955e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:02 PM 3/24/05 -0800, Lee wrote: >HP 9144/9145 :-[ ???? What's wrong with the 9144? I've used them and they work well. I've even booted systems from them. Slow but it works! The 9145s should be ok but the 32 track tapes are hard to come by. Joe > >Lee Courtney > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum >> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 1:16 PM >> To: General at smtp4.suscom.net; and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: argh >> >> >> Irwin tape drives too ;-) >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh >> >waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah click click click... >> > >> >I'm sure QIC-24 tape drives were designed for the sole purpose of >> >driving me insane :/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 >> > From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 24 17:55:02 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:55:02 -0500 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 08:24 24-03-05, Joe R. said something like: >At 10:33 PM 3/23/05 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide > >assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, > >but smaller) which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the > >part number: A3057674-11. > > > >It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O > >processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go > >through the edge connector. Can't find anything while searching on the > >A3057 portion of the p/n (Axxxx is a type of part numbering scheme HP used > >for some boards and stuff) nor on many combinations of parts of the p/n. > > Darn! I've seen those cards but I can't remember what they are. > > > > OK I finally got the grey matter working and I remember what those cards >are. They're DOS coprocessor cards. Yes, your HP can run MS-DOS. Somewhere >I have some of the cards but I never found software for them. If you got a >drive with your system, look at it carefully and see if it has the >necessary SW. If you find the SW, I'd love to get a copy. That's indeed correct Joe. Thanks very much. Can run MS-DOS?! Kinda like putting cheapest, low performance tires on your classic Corvette, IMO :-) Carlos had indicated in his message just before yours that it could be the Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A. I pulled the CPU box out, pulled the card and indeed it says 98286-6xxxx in the etch on the solder-side of the card. I fetched my 1989 HP catalog and found a whole page on just the Series 300 DOS Coprocessor. Back then, HP came out with their version of an office automation software system called "NewWave" for IBM PC ATs. They apparently wanted to enable the 9000/200 and /300 workstations to be integrated into an IBM PC AT software environment. Hence, the 9826A. Now, the next problem is to get the machine running so I can see if the Coprocessor s/w even exists for you Joe. I lack a correct monitor for the fixed frequency output of the RGB card. The card is a 98547A which has three BNC connectors; sync on green. I've got an old and HEAVY 19" display in poor condition stored down in the back garage and cannot get to it because its literally buried under boxes of 'stuff' and a large group of early car radios I've kept for parts and/or restoration. Not sure if the thing would sync to the HP's fixed freq output anyway. The two fixed freq monitors specified for the 98547A are the HP 98751A (19") or HP 98785A (16"). The machine was found at the Dayton Hamvention back in 1999. The HP 9000/375 CPU box, HP 7958B 152 Mb hard disk, and the HP 9144A tape drive had been removed from some sort of military transit case. There's a US government NSN number stenciled on the side of the CPU box. I'm going to check with some of my military radio collector friends to see what it translates to. The fellow who had bought it earlier that day wanted just the case and I got the three HP boxes for $20 or $30. No KB, mouse or other items were with it then. The system probably was never issued to the field judging from the pristine cleanliness of everything. The CPU module was a 9000/340 (98574) but had been upgraded, according to a sticker upon it, to a 9000/375 which uses a 68040 CPU chip. Great! Since the purchase, I've been trying to find a way to view the RGB output on a typical VGA monitor that would sync to the output. I've gathered most everything else needed: keyboard and mouse came from a list member & three RGB coax cables came home from the Rochester Hamfest several years ago. Not a single page of documentation though, and I'm one to try to fully document my collection if possible. Just the HP catalogs are on hand. I found my HP/UX 5.5, BASIC/UX 5.5 and HP/UX 7.0 distro tapes, all still in shrinkwrap and their licence certificates, that I had squirreled away for a rainy day. I think Linux and one or two of the BSD's have been ported to run on this system. Anybody have the HP Pascal 3.1 or 3.2 system? Just last week in one of my occasional searches for a video solution, I found this RGB-to-VGA adapter product: http://www.magenta-research.com/products/products/product_set3/VideoAdapters.html Hmmm, yeah. Just right! So, I inquired about the price. They emailed back $695.00 (gulp!!!) Take a look at that little thing! $695?? Well, I guess I'll keep looking ):-\ Anybody have ANY ideas or a source of an *affordable* RGB-to-VGA adapter?? I don't think this has been discussed here before, has it? Whatever it would be will probably strip the H & V sync off the green signal output and send them to the appropriate pins on the HD15 VGA connector. I might even be tempted to build my own adapter if I could lay my hands on all the tech specs for both the HP's RGB output signals and the VGA input signal requirements of a contemporary VGA monitor. I'm like a Tony Duell on stuff like this: if I have time and technical resources at hand I can roll my own. Again, IF I have time :-\ This would help at least one or two others on the list too, I suppose. How about documents -user manuals, tech data, service manuals, etc.?? Anything at all around in paper or .pdf for any of this h/w? Nothing on bitsavers.org. Anybody have HP 9000 websites? Thanks for your input. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer Antique Wireless Association, Inc. Jamestown, New York USA email: cfandt at netsync.net Electronic/Electrical Historian URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 24 18:21:21 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:21:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: FT: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's In-Reply-To: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <61673.64.139.41.130.1111710081.squirrel@64.139.41.130> > Anyone want to trade feel like trading some TK70's for my TK50's? IIRC, the TK50 and TK70 use *exactly* the same media, with a different format. You can bulk-erase them and reformat them for either. Eric From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 24 18:31:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:31:13 -0500 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050324193113.00932820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:55 PM 3/24/05 -0500, you wrote: >Upon the date 08:24 24-03-05, Joe R. said something like: >>At 10:33 PM 3/23/05 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> >Also, in my 9000/375 there is a board which fits into a smaller card guide >> >assy (i.e., it is not the same physical size as the CPU and video modules, >> >but smaller) which has a paper sticker with several numbers including the >> >part number: A3057674-11. >> > >> >It has an 80286 CPU chip on it which leads me to think its some sort of I/O >> >processor (?). No connector headers on the board; all connections go >> >through the edge connector. Can't find anything while searching on the >> >A3057 portion of the p/n (Axxxx is a type of part numbering scheme HP used >> >for some boards and stuff) nor on many combinations of parts of the p/n. >> >> Darn! I've seen those cards but I can't remember what they are. >> >> >> >> OK I finally got the grey matter working and I remember what those cards >>are. They're DOS coprocessor cards. Yes, your HP can run MS-DOS. Somewhere >>I have some of the cards but I never found software for them. If you got a >>drive with your system, look at it carefully and see if it has the >>necessary SW. If you find the SW, I'd love to get a copy. > >That's indeed correct Joe. Thanks very much. Can run MS-DOS?! Kinda like >putting cheapest, low performance tires on your classic Corvette, IMO :-) HP also made the Viper and HyperViper cards. They plug into PCs and will run HP software. I guess they were trying to cover all the bases. > >Carlos had indicated in his message just before yours that it could be the >Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A. I pulled the CPU box out, pulled the >card and indeed it says 98286-6xxxx in the etch on the solder-side of the >card. > >I fetched my 1989 HP catalog and found a whole page on just the Series 300 >DOS Coprocessor. Back then, HP came out with their version of an office >automation software system called "NewWave" for IBM PC ATs. They apparently >wanted to enable the 9000/200 and /300 workstations to be integrated into >an IBM PC AT software environment. Hence, the 9826A. > >Now, the next problem is to get the machine running so I can see if the >Coprocessor s/w even exists for you Joe. > >I lack a correct monitor for the fixed frequency output of the RGB card. >The card is a 98547A which has three BNC connectors; sync on green. I've >got an old and HEAVY 19" display in poor condition stored down in the back >garage and cannot get to it because its literally buried under boxes of >'stuff' and a large group of early car radios I've kept for parts and/or >restoration. Not sure if the thing would sync to the HP's fixed freq output >anyway. The two fixed freq monitors specified for the 98547A are the HP >98751A (19") or HP 98785A (16"). I doubt the 98547 will work with your card. I have an old ADC VGA PC-type monitor that also has RGB inputs and it does sync up to some of the HP cards including the 98751 IIRC. All of the HP video cards have different scan rates and resolution so you just have to try them to see if they work with the VGA monitors. If you have any other HP video cards you could try one of them if the installed one doesn't work. If you can't figure it out you could always send the drive to me and I'll hang it off of one of my systems. In fact I have a couple of HP 9000/362s that I need to try out. They use VGA monitors and and PS-2 keyboards. > >The machine was found at the Dayton Hamvention back in 1999. The HP >9000/375 CPU box, HP 7958B 152 Mb hard disk, and the HP 9144A tape drive >had been removed from some sort of military transit case. There's a US >government NSN number stenciled on the side of the CPU box. I'm going to >check with some of my military radio collector friends to see what it >translates to. An NSN won't tell you much other than the country of origin and manufacturer. It won't tell you ANYTHING about the intended usage. Most (all?) of HP's stuff is already in the government supply system and has already been assigned NSNs and can be ordered off the shelf (pre-approved). A common item like a computer could go into ANYTHING. OTOH the military nomenclature may tell you a lot including what system it's a part of. There is at least one website that breaks down the nomenclature. (I used to specify test and support equipment for the US and Canadian Armys in a former life.) The fellow who had bought it earlier that day wanted just >the case and I got the three HP boxes for $20 or $30. No KB, mouse or other >items were with it then. The system probably was never issued to the field >judging from the pristine cleanliness of everything. > >The CPU module was a 9000/340 (98574) but had been upgraded, according to a >sticker upon it, to a 9000/375 which uses a 68040 CPU chip. Great! > >Since the purchase, I've been trying to find a way to view the RGB output >on a typical VGA monitor that would sync to the output. I've gathered most >everything else needed: keyboard and mouse came from a list member & three >RGB coax cables came home from the Rochester Hamfest several years ago. Not >a single page of documentation though, and I'm one to try to fully document >my collection if possible. Just the HP catalogs are on hand. > >I found my HP/UX 5.5, BASIC/UX 5.5 and HP/UX 7.0 distro tapes, all still in >shrinkwrap and their licence certificates, that I had squirreled away for a >rainy day. I think Linux and one or two of the BSD's have been ported to >run on this system. Anybody have the HP Pascal 3.1 or 3.2 system? I do. I also have several versions of BASIC and a couple of versions of HPL. > >Just last week in one of my occasional searches for a video solution, I >found this RGB-to-VGA adapter product: >http://www.magenta-research.com/products/products/product_set3/VideoAdapter s.html >Hmmm, yeah. Just right! > >So, I inquired about the price. They emailed back $695.00 (gulp!!!) Take >a look at that little thing! $695?? > >Well, I guess I'll keep looking ):-\ > >Anybody have ANY ideas or a source of an *affordable* RGB-to-VGA adapter?? >I don't think this has been discussed here before, has it? > >Whatever it would be will probably strip the H & V sync off the green >signal output and send them to the appropriate pins on the HD15 VGA >connector. I might even be tempted to build my own adapter if I could lay >my hands on all the tech specs for both the HP's RGB output signals and the >VGA input signal requirements of a contemporary VGA monitor. I'm like a >Tony Duell on stuff like this: if I have time and technical resources at >hand I can roll my own. Again, IF I have time :-\ This would help at >least one or two others on the list too, I suppose. > >How about documents -user manuals, tech data, service manuals, etc.?? >Anything at all around in paper or .pdf for any of this h/w? Nothing on >bitsavers.org. Anybody have HP 9000 websites? There is a BSD website that describes a lot of the high end HP 9000/300 hardware. Sorry but I don't have the URL any more. I have some stuff posted about the 9800 and 9000 200 series but litle about the 9000/300. I do have a LOT of docs that include material about the 9000/300, HP-UX, HW configuration manuals, Pascal, HPL, BASIC and more. Joe > >Thanks for your input. > >Regards, Chris F. > >NNNN > >Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer >Antique Wireless Association, Inc. >Jamestown, New York USA > email: cfandt at netsync.net > Electronic/Electrical Historian > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Mar 24 18:31:45 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:31:45 -0500 Subject: Totally OT and lame...don't read! Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42435BF1.4070309@internet1.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Sales are not free. There's a cost of doing business. You really need to > read a book on business principles or take a local community college > course on it. Better yet, start your own business to learn first hand. Do you refer to taxes? I don't see how selling something cheaply is more cost effective than throwing the same item out. As far as college..... already busy with Differential Equations and Physics. > First of all, have you ever seen Michael Nadeau's book? It's not, you > should buy a copy (as should anyone at all interested in collecting > vintage computers). It's pretty comprehensive. I haven't seen it. I was actually pondering that a bit over dinner. > > Second, if you really think it's quicker and more efficient for them to > read and interpret a sheet of "guidelines" that will be obsolete and > require re-publication and re-distribution every few months then you have > never managed people before. I don't see them as going obselete that quickly. We're talking bottom of the market, here. Prices don't change that quickly at that point. > >>A sheet of guide lines can tell them, the >>monitors a small one, it's clean, and it says Trinitron, $15... bam >>they're done, next item. Let's see, it says Mac, the screen is part of >>it, it's pretty dirty, $10, bam done, next item. > > > Does it work? Do they know? Do they know how to test it? Did they test > it 100%? Are all the colors present? Is there any distortion or is any > part of the screen out of focus? What kind of dot pitch does it have? > What's its maximum resolution? Did they test all the video modes for > that monitor? Does it require degaussing? Did they burn it in for 24 > hours to catch problems that only manifest themselves after continuous > operation? Is all this worth $10 to $15? They don't need to check all that, it's only a $5, 10, or $15 monitor. If they checked all that the cost would go up, and they wouldn't be able to sell it. My local Goodwill store actually allow returns, btw. If I were to buy a monitor that didn't work, I'd have seven days to return it, as long as I had my reciept, so in a way my local Goodwill turns me into the testing person, whcih doesn't cost them. > > If it doesn't work, then what? Pay $10 to $15 to get rid of it? That's > the current going rate in much of the US. I think most places around here just toss them. I realize your in CA, and you have more restictions. Thinking back at our previous comments to each other. I think we are both assuming different situations of use of the guide and application of the guide. I'm assuming mostly older PC stuff with occasionally something interesting, where the unilateral application of the guide would be useless. Maybe you are assuming a higher percentage of interesting items, and the application of the guide only when the employee recognizes it as a non-PC, or at least something out of the ordinary? If the second case is closer to your position, maybe both of us are right (potentially)..... my way for the PC stuff, your way for the more interesting stuff. We probably should close off this thread, as it is kind of off-topic now. That being said, I have enjoyed it. If you want to fire back once more, send it ito me directly. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 17:51:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:51:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Mar 24, 5 09:15:28 am Message-ID: > Be careful! The first (only if you are using only one) > hard disk drive uses DS3. The RX50 rarely needs any > settings changed - I would not know how if asked since > I have never used more than a single (dual) RX50. There is a single, unmarked, jumper on the seek/interface PCB in the RX50 -- the one mounted verticalled at the back of the drive that the interface cables plug into. It's normally unjumpered. Jumering it will change the drive selects from 0,1 to 2,3. I don't know if that's what needs to be done, but it seems likely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 24 18:48:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:48:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK05 Help In-Reply-To: <20050324175932.E22A82C00A@pail.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Mar 24, 5 09:59:31 am Message-ID: > > Well, as Tony surmised, the blower motor itself was bad. The odd part > is that there were two RK05's in the system, and both of the blower motors > were toast. I'm wondering if there was something environmental about the > storage (dry, insulated/sheetrocked garage, but no heat) that did something The insulation on those motors is not brilliant to say the least. We have particular problems over here, because it has to stand 240V -- the motoe may only have 120V between the ends of its windings, but there's 240V bwetween one end and chassis ground when the drive is set for 240V mains. I've had the darn things catch fire. Do you have a megger? If so, I'd stick it on the dead motors (windings to frame) and see what happens. > to the motors that caused them to die in both drives. I took the blower > motor > from the parts drive, and it was fine. It was made by a different > manufacturer, > and seemed much more robust. I now have one drive that will work. > I'm hoping that I can, with the procedure Tony mentioned for tearing > the motors down, perhaps cobble together another motor, or perhaps take > the motor to a motor repair place and see if the windings can be repaired. The bad news is that the stator laminations are spot-welded into the case, and only one end plate is removeable. Rewinding that would be an 'interesting' project, therefore. > > It's interesting that in order to remove the blower motor, you have > to destroy the foam seal that seals the motor to the electronics bay, in > order > to get to the fourth allen head cap screw that secures the motor to the > drive I seem to rememeber there is a way to get a tool onto that screw, maybe you need a ball-ended allen key or something, which can be used at an angle. Or maybe you can just push a normal key past the foam, and if the latter is in good condition (which it won't be now), it'll just deform out of the way. > base. I have to improvise and make my own new foam filter I put the good > motor back in the drive. FWIW, taht foam seal is not essential by any means. I've run plenty of drives without it. > > The 2nd drive, as it turns out, also had the upper head crashed at some > point in time, it has a lot of oxide on it, and shows signs of getting hot, > so to get > that 2nd drive running (once the blower motor issue is resolved), I'll You may have to replace it, it may just need a really good clean (I've heard that even quite badly mangled heads will clean up anf fly again). > have to replace the top head. My question now is, do the heads have > to be replaced in sets, or can one head be replaced? Once a head is You can replace a single head. Of ocurse you replace the assembly (head, spring leaf, mounting block), but you don't need to replace the other head as well. > replaced, > does the drive have to be aligned in any way? I've read the head Yes. In fact if you remove a head you need to do the alignment even if you put the same head back in again. > replacement > procedure, and it suggests it, but I don't have an RK05 alignment pack, > which > pretty much precludes doing that. Is there a chance that just replacing the > head, being careful to make sure it is properly seated and that the torque > on the holddown set screws is correct, that the drive will "just work"? It'll work, but you won't be able to use the packs in any other drive, or vice versa (this is, of course, an 'interchangeability adjustment' -- a drive with misaligned heads will read its own packs). There are 2 screws for each head. One clamps the head tail into the positioner carriage. The other forces the head forwards as you screw it in. The procedure is to loosen the first one, back out the second one, push the head as far into the positioner as you can, then with the alignment pack loaded, slowly screw in the second one until the head is aligned. Clamp up the first one, then back out the second one a bit (it'll have no effect), to prevent it moving the head later due to thermal expansion, etv. Therefore, if you then remove the head you haven't a hope of getting it back in the right place without an alignment pack. > I have a good set of heads from the 'scrap' drive. > > By the way, an RK05 drive will indeed load the heads, go READY and give > "ON CYL" status with no controller connected, so long as the terminator > is installed in the last slot of the electronics backplane in the drive, and > a good cartridge is installed. Thought so. By 'good cartridge', all the drive checks for is the sector pulses from the hub notches. It doesn't matter whart's on the disk (there's no servo, or clcok track, or anything like that). -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Mar 24 20:25:02 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:25:02 -0500 Subject: FT: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's In-Reply-To: <61673.64.139.41.130.1111710081.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <61673.64.139.41.130.1111710081.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <1111717502.20548.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Not by what I read on the NetBSD FAQ: http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html Can you reformat TK50 tapes as TK70s (top) Once you erase a TK50 you can use it in a TK70 drive and vice versa, but the TK50 and TK70 tape material is different, and the write current of the TK70 drive is different (lower). This is not recommended, and should be used for temporary storage for which you will suffer no pain if lost. David On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 16:21 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > > Anyone want to trade feel like trading some TK70's for my TK50's? > > IIRC, the TK50 and TK70 use *exactly* the same media, with a different > format. You can bulk-erase them and reformat them for either. > > Eric From vcf at siconic.com Thu Mar 24 20:52:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:52:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT and lame...don't read! Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill In-Reply-To: <42435BF1.4070309@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Sales are not free. There's a cost of doing business. You really need to > > read a book on business principles or take a local community college > > course on it. Better yet, start your own business to learn first hand. > > Do you refer to taxes? I don't see how selling something cheaply is > more cost effective than throwing the same item out. Everything costs money. Time, employees, power, water, phone, advertising, shelf space, rent, and taxes. No matter what business you're in, you have these costs, but they are especially critical in sales. > > First of all, have you ever seen Michael Nadeau's book? It's not, you > > should buy a copy (as should anyone at all interested in collecting > > vintage computers). It's pretty comprehensive. > > I haven't seen it. I was actually pondering that a bit over dinner. Don't you think you should get a copy and read it before debating my suggestion? > > Second, if you really think it's quicker and more efficient for them to > > read and interpret a sheet of "guidelines" that will be obsolete and > > require re-publication and re-distribution every few months then you have > > never managed people before. > > I don't see them as going obselete that quickly. We're talking bottom > of the market, here. Prices don't change that quickly at that point. You may not see it but I do. A monitor that someone may pay $15 for today will probably be worthless in 3-6 months. And just as the working life of contemporary technology is shrinking, the after-life of that technology is also shrinking. > > Does it work? Do they know? Do they know how to test it? Did they test > > it 100%? Are all the colors present? Is there any distortion or is any > > part of the screen out of focus? What kind of dot pitch does it have? > > What's its maximum resolution? Did they test all the video modes for > > that monitor? Does it require degaussing? Did they burn it in for 24 > > hours to catch problems that only manifest themselves after continuous > > operation? Is all this worth $10 to $15? > > They don't need to check all that, it's only a $5, 10, or $15 monitor. So you're saying they're going to take untested junk and expect people to pay $5-$15 for it? That's entirely unrealistic. > If they checked all that the cost would go up, and they wouldn't be able > to sell it. My local Goodwill store actually allow returns, btw. If I > were to buy a monitor that didn't work, I'd have seven days to return > it, as long as I had my reciept, so in a way my local Goodwill turns me > into the testing person, whcih doesn't cost them. It costs them to have to deal with you on both the sale and the return. That takes time, and time is money. So if they sell you something that's broken, they just wasted money twice. From what I know, Goodwill does not put untested junk on their shelves. If they did, their shelves would be full of junk, sales would drop off considerably because customers would lose faith in Goodwill and not want to take a chance buying something that may end up being junk (whether they can return it or not) and Goodwill would go broke spending all their time on returns. No, this will not work. > I think most places around here just toss them. Not for long. > would be useless. Maybe you are assuming a higher percentage of > interesting items, and the application of the guide only when the > employee recognizes it as a non-PC, or at least something out of the > ordinary? That's where this whole thread came from. We weren't talk about commodity PC crap, but even then, your model won't work. > If the second case is closer to your position, maybe both of > us are right (potentially)..... my way for the PC stuff, your way for > the more interesting stuff. Nope, your way would send GW into bankruptcy. > We probably should close off this thread, as it is kind of off-topic > now. That being said, I have enjoyed it. If you want to fire back once > more, send it ito me directly. I'm done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 24 21:08:10 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:08:10 -0500 Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:15:28 EST.) <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> References: <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200503250308.j2P38Ab4003006@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The BA23 normally arrives (i.e. has as standard hardware) a > distribution panel for the RX50 dual floppy drive and RD5n hard drives. > A 50 pin flat cable with a female header at both ends is used to > connect the controller (RQDX3 in your case) to this distribution > panel. The distribution panel has a 40 pin connection available > in approximately the centre (although only the connection headers > are visible through holes in the bulkhead between the distribution > panel and the area which holds the floppy and / or hard drives). > The cable to be used is a 40 pin cable with a female header at both > ends and usually about 10" in length (when used in a BA23). > > Any other questions? Brilliant as usual, Jerome, thanks! With this info, part numbers aren't necessary. The distribution panel you're referring to is an M9058? Or is there a non-backplane variant I haven't encountered yet? De From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 24 21:10:41 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:10:41 -0500 Subject: Emulating tapes/disk via linux/*bsd ? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:28:41 EST.) <200503241728.j2OHSf8t024279@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200503241728.j2OHSf8t024279@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200503250310.j2P3AfkN003085@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I have *really* wanted to do this to emulate disks for some odd scsi > machines I have (disk which have nonstandard block sizes - don't ask). It looks like Fujitsu did some work for Linux a couple of years ago. Other sources claim Linux lacks the target-mode middle layer. FreeBSD is supposed to be able to do this, however. De From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 24 22:01:36 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:01:36 -0500 Subject: Totally OT and lame...don't read! Re: Rare Apples, eBay, Goodwill References: <42435BF1.4070309@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002e01c530ef$58088ec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > We probably should close off this thread, as it is kind of off-topic > now. That being said, I have enjoyed it. >>> If you want to fire back once more, send it ito me directly. <<<< Best thing anyone has said to an OT... ever. John A. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 24 22:11:05 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:11:05 -0500 Subject: FT: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's In-Reply-To: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <42438F59.6090708@compsys.to> >David Holland wrote: >Due to my inability to read a EPay auction correctly, I'm now the >"proud" owner of 25 CompacTape tapes. I was looking for CompacTape >II's for my TK70 drive.. (oops) > >Anyone want to trade feel like trading some TK70's for my TK50's? > > Jerome Fine replies: As has already been stated, it is possible to BULK ERASE a used TK50 media and then use it as a TK70. Since I have done that many times, I know it is possible. It is also possible to used a completely NEW TK50 media as a TK70. If the TK50 is totally blank, then the TK70 will also be happy. I have done that as well, although ONLY once or twice since it was rare to find an unused TK50 media. At one point, there was a web page providing the characteristics of all DLT media which included TK50 and TK70. The magnetic and physical properties are IDENTICAL. The only 2 differences are: (a) CompacTape usually have a brown ID and CompacTape II usually have a blue ID (b) DEC always charged substantially more for the media with a blue label Finding a bulk eraser may not be easy. I also tried it with a large magnetic from an old speaker - about 10 lb. It seems to work, but takes about 5 times as long. On the other hand, the bulk eraser I user had a cycle life of only ONE tape at a time after which it took about 10 minutes to cool down. I was also told that if I had attempted to bulk erase until it actually did overheat (the bulk eraser, not the tape), then the life span of the bulk eraser was greatly reduced. As for the TK70 tape drive, when used with the TKQ70 controller and a reasonable blocking factor (I believe that BUP in RT-11 used 8192 bytes per record), I was able to archive about 280 MBytes per media. What was even more important was that the WRITE speed was twice (in FULL streaming mode) that for a TK50 drive. EVEN MORE IMPORTANT was that when I did a VERIFY (I do a VERIFY 99% of the time what I do an archive) the time was usually equal the the WRITE time - I assume that the TKQ70 controller has a buffer and firmware which is able to continue streaming with the next record on the TK70 while the comparison was performed with the current record. As long as the next READ took place within a reasonable time limit (maybe before the end of the record was reached), the TK70 tape drive was able to continue in streaming mode. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 24 22:12:18 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:12:18 -0500 Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: <10503241717.ZM3639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> <10503241717.ZM3639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42438FA2.70200@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Jerome Fine replies: >>> The BA23 normally arrives (i.e. has as standard >>> hardware) a distribution panel for the RX50 dual >>> floppy drive and RD5n hard drives. A 50 pin flat >>> cable with a female header at both ends is used to >>> connect the controller (RQDX3 in your case) to this >>> distribution panel. The distribution panel has a >>> 40 pin connection available in approximately the >>> centre >> > >Actually it's a 34-way cable, just like the 34-way cable used for a PC >3.5" drive, though without the "twist" that most PC drive cables have. > Jerome Fine replies: As usual, you are correct. I suspect that my error would have been noted as soon as the attempt to actually plug the 40 pin cable into the 34 pin header of the RX50. As for the lack of a twist, I seem to remember that the twist was only after the first connection, i.e. on the second connection. Since there is only a single connection to the RX50, if I am correct, the twist would not affect anything. And finally, on the PC I use, there are indeed two floppy drives with A: being a 3 1/2" drive with a header and B: being a 5 1/4" drive with an edge connector - although the actual cable in question has 5 connectors: (a) a header at one end for the motherboard (b),(C) both an edge connector and header in front of the "twist" for the first drive with only the header being used for the A: drive (d),(e) both an edge connector and header after the "twist" for the second drive with only the edge connector being used for the B: drive I beg forgiveness for using a PC, but I really use the PC to run RT-11! And the B: floppy drive is used as an RX50 - well a single RX50. This use of old RT-11 software is getting weird when I think of the first PDP-11/05 I used 30 years ago to run V2.0B RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Mar 24 22:21:24 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:21:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP9134A 4.6MB HD on eBay Message-ID: for $2.99 (yup - 3 bux) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=5179025649 Cheers John From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Mar 24 22:32:28 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:32:28 -0500 Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4243945C.5050901@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>Be careful! The first (only if you are using only one) >>hard disk drive uses DS3. The RX50 rarely needs any >>settings changed - I would not know how if asked since >>I have never used more than a single (dual) RX50. >> >> >There is a single, unmarked, jumper on the seek/interface PCB in the RX50 >-- the one mounted verticalled at the back of the drive that the >interface cables plug into. It's normally unjumpered. Jumering it will >change the drive selects from 0,1 to 2,3. I don't know if that's what >needs to be done, but it seems likely. > > Jerome Fine replies: As usual, the expert knows a bit more. Do you need to remove the case to find the jumper? The last time I removed the case was to toss the RX50 and insert TWO RX33 drives instead. These are (for those who know) standard HD 5/14" PC drives, but of a specific make and model. Others who remember (remember I am 66 years old now) can provide the information. I added a Y power connector and used a 34 pin (did I get it correct this time?) PC floppy cable without the "twist". There was a 34 pin female header at one end and 2 edge connectors at the other end daisy chained to the 2 5 1/4" floppy drives. The first drive is (I am still using them) jumpered for 0, the second for 1. Naturally an RQDX3 is REQUIRED to use the RX33. What is EXTREMELY unusual is that DEC allows the RT-11 command: FORMAT DU0: which actually can perform a LLF (Low Level Format) on RX33 media which then have an LLF identical to the HD 1.2 MByte PC media per 80 tracks with 16 blocks per track and double sided. I must admit that the only other time I removed the RX50 case was to give one that did not work to my grandson. I had rescued about 50 from a dumpster and could not use them all. He was very angry that day and used a big hammer to convert the RX50 into very small pieces. It was such fun that he stopped being angry. It seemed like a good cause at the time. I still have 25 more RX50 drives to toss after I removed the bottom black plastic. For personal pickup in Toronto!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Mar 24 22:48:10 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:48:10 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... Message-ID: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Apologies up front. I have a (potentially) wonderful PDP-8/e with TU-56 and RK05 just begging for attention (as soon as I can get ONE of my ASR-33's to behave properly). I WANT to spend time on that machine. I also have and sbc-6120 I want to get OS/8 up on for the MARCH show. Still the "real world" makes demands. Yet another weekend supporting (gasp) modern systems. But some of the things that strike me are..... It STILL takes the same amount of time for a system to boot.. It STILL takes the same amount of time to format a disk.. It STILL takes the same amount of time to install a (basic) OS It STILL takes the same amount of time to customize the OS ..I can keep ranting... Amazing, the more things change.the less they do.. [I KNOW the original saying is different]. Thanks again David.. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 24 23:18:15 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:18:15 -0800 Subject: PDP 8/e Front Panel Lamp Replacement In-Reply-To: <16961.44379.101138.486052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050325051814.7FAC52C00A@pail.bensene.com> Hi, all, While I've been tinkering with the PDP 8/e I just took out of storage, I've found that a couple of the front panel bulbs are burned out. I know that this has been discussed here before, but does anyone have a clue where I can get replacements that will work? I understand that the bulbs are type T1, 14V @ 0.40A, with .125 pin spacing, and 0.75 tall. I have a DEC part number, but, of course, that today is useless. I've searched around the net some, but can't find anything like that. I've worked around it by taking the bulbs from the extended address page lights and using them as replacements, but I'd like to get all the lights working again. At least now the 12 address and 12 "status" lights, along with the "RUN" light work. Any help appreciated. Thanks, Rick Bensene P.S., I don't want to switch it over to LED's or anything like that, I want to keep it as original as I can. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Mar 24 23:28:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:28:16 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> David V. Corbin wrote: > It STILL takes the same amount of time for a system to boot.. > It STILL takes the same amount of time to format a disk.. > It STILL takes the same amount of time to install a (basic) OS > It STILL takes the same amount of time to customize the OS Not really surprising: As much as computing power has increased, software complexity has increased right along with it. Everything you mentioned is a software issue. There are exceptions for both past and future, of course (for example, MS-DOS boots in 10 seconds off of a Shugart... and there are modern OSes that boot in 30 seconds and positively scream) but you get the idea. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 23:35:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:35:38 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 23:28:16 -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > David V. Corbin wrote: > > It STILL takes the same amount of time for a system to boot.. Yep... a 30 cps printer still takes minutes to belch out the startup text for VMS and/or UNIX... (I used to keep about 6 LA36s and LA100s loaded with paper and ribbons for various machines we had at work... I was glad when we no longer cared about a paper record and switched to VT100s at a higher baud rate). -ethan From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 24 23:40:04 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:40:04 -0800 Subject: PDP 8/e Front Panel Lamp Replacement References: <20050325051814.7FAC52C00A@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > While I've been tinkering with the PDP 8/e I just took out of storage, > I've found that a couple of the front panel bulbs are burned out. > > I know that this has been discussed here before, but does anyone have > a clue where I can get replacements that will work? Some people have had some luck with my page: http://mysite.verizon.net/res1ac3j/id9.html > I understand that the bulbs are type T1, 14V @ 0.40A, with .125 pin > spacing, and 0.75 tall. I have a DEC part number, but, of course, that > today is useless. I've searched around the net some, but can't find > anything like that. I don't think that is the correct voltage for an 8/e bulb, though it is about right for an 8/i bulb. I believe the 8/e uses 10V bulbs, though many seem to have been rlamped with 8/i bulbs, for some reason. (Perhaps the dimmer presentation was acceptable, and the higher voltage bulbs lasted longer?) I believe the original 8/e bulb was equivalent to the CM2309. Those are not easy to find these days, but the CM7371 are readily available, and should work OK (and have a longer lifespan, too). (The 8/e lamps are already socketed, so you lucked out there.) Vince From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 25 00:10:35 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:10:35 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <0IDW0067J944HM@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>As much as computing power has increased, software >>complexity has increased right along with it. Everything >>you mentioned is a software issue. Many of them are. Others are just economies of scale. Consider disdk formatting. If you look at MB/S then today's drives are MUCH faster. If yuou look at "how long does it take to format this new drive", then the answer is about the same. In this case it is a pure hardware/physics issue... [3 drives formatted...2 to go...then the install] From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 01:03:40 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:40 +0800 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <0IDW0067J944HM@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> <0IDW0067J944HM@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:10:35 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: > Others are just economies of scale. Consider disdk formatting. If you look > at MB/S then today's drives are MUCH faster. If yuou look at "how long does > it take to format this new drive", then the answer is about the same. Well, I can offer an exception, but it is surely OT... :-} ReiserFS. It "formats" the disks the same amount of time regardless of the disk size/capacity, so format time is O(1) wrt to capacity. This is my personal experience too, I've used 4G, 9G and 20G disks with ReiserFS. It all "formatted" less than 5s. Not an expert, just a user, but AFAIK it only formats the space require for its internal journal and some metadata. In Linux, you just, pluck in a raw disk, and do a: #mkfs -t reiserfs /dev/sda1 and that's it, typically done below 5s. OTOH, if you use ext2/ext3....well... /wai-sun From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Mar 25 01:18:10 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:18:10 +0100 Subject: argh References: <1111697358.2356.98.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <002c01c5310a$ccab0080$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jules Richardson" Subject: argh > > wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh > waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah wuuuuuuuh waaaaaaah click click click... > > I'm sure QIC-24 tape drives were designed for the sole purpose of > driving me insane :/ > It looks like the job was well done :-)) Nico From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 25 04:10:25 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:10:25 GMT Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: Cables for RX50 in BA23" (Mar 24, 23:12) References: <200503240346.j2O3kXqc007706@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4242CB80.5040300@compsys.to> <10503241717.ZM3639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42438FA2.70200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10503251010.ZM5303@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24 2005, 23:12, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >Actually it's a 34-way cable, just like the 34-way cable used for a PC > >3.5" drive, though without the "twist" that most PC drive cables have. > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > As usual, you are correct. I suspect that my > error would have been noted as soon as the attempt > to actually plug the 40 pin cable into the 34 pin > header of the RX50. Yes, it would have been obvious and probably not caused any confusion. I only posted the followup in case anyone else who'd not seen the distribution panel went looking for a cable in advance, really. > As for the lack of a twist, I seem to remember that > the twist was only after the first connection, i.e. > on the second connection. Since there is only a > single connection to the RX50, if I am correct, > the twist would not affect anything. That's right. I've used cables like that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 25 04:27:49 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:27:49 GMT Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: "David V. Corbin" "Totally OT, but frustrated....." (Mar 24, 23:48) References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24 2005, 23:48, David V. Corbin wrote: > But some of the things that strike me are..... > It STILL takes the same amount of time [ for lots of things ] I've just come back from a network conference (http://www.ja.net/conferences/networkshop/index.html) where we had a wonderful talk from Vint Cerf (see http://www.mci.com/cerfsup particularly the presentation about the Internet and IT which has some of the same slides he used yesterday). He made the point that in several decades we've seen hardware get bigger and faster by several orders of magnitude, but software hasn't done anything of the sort. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Mar 25 04:41:32 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:41:32 +0100 Subject: TE10/TU10\ Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1B79@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > The TE10 uses the TE16 transport with a Unibus TM11 interface. > The TU10 used the TU16 transport with the Unibus TM11 interface. > > The TE16 is the redesigned version of the TU16 with a better > tape path, auto-rewind to BOT after tape load etc. > > The TE10 is the better unit although both are the same spec > 800bpi/1600bpi (IIRC) and 45ips (or is it 45ips rewind speed?). > > I used to do a lot of Field Service on the DEC tape drives > and the TE16 was pretty reliable -- with only the tape locking > mechanism breaking (same part as one of the Kennedy drives). > > Bill Hmmm, what are my options when the thin "rubber" layer of the capstan roller went goo, Bill? Capstan roller might not be the correct term, it is the roller that transports the tape to the upper (pick-up) reel. On both my TE16 drives the rubber has become *very* sticky, so I am listening for any solution ... - Henk, PA8PDP. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 25 05:21:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:21:30 +0000 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1111749690.3827.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 23:48 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: > But some of the things that strike me are..... > > It STILL takes the same amount of time for a system to boot.. Thin clients do a little better usually. Beats me what the heck a modern PC's BIOS does on startup by the way to make it take so long. > It STILL takes the same amount of time to format a disk.. Unless you're on a thin client... > It STILL takes the same amount of time to install a (basic) OS Umm... thin client...? ;) > It STILL takes the same amount of time to customize the OS Hmm, on a > 1 scale a you-know-what can be useful there too as the customisation's only done once. Don't things like Norton Ghost take care of imaging a Windows OS between machines? Or do they only work when the source and target drives are the same size? And of course in the Unix world cloning a disk is easy as all the tools are already there. Bad block checking at OS install time is a necessity though - only solution I can think of there is to keep the OS on a small drive or partition. Memory tests on a "real" system need to be thorough at boot time too for obvious reasons; no way around that unfortunately - although an OS that had the option of testing memory that it needed to load into then background-testing the rest post-boot *might* be handy to people. Of course servers that need x MB of memory usually start up all the services that require that much memory at boot time, so it doesn't help much. Different for desktops though; 90% of the time I'm using about 30% of the RAM in this PC... I miss the days of the 8-bit "desktop" machines (CMB/Sinclair etc.) - turn it on and it's ready, no messing around... cheers J. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 05:31:06 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:31:06 -0000 Subject: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's In-Reply-To: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <003701c5312e$237f7760$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Due to my inability to read a EPay auction correctly, I'm now the >"proud" owner of 25 CompacTape tapes. I was looking for CompacTape >II's for my TK70 drive.. (oops) As others have mentioned, all you need to do is bulk erase them and they'll work perfectly well. If they are official release tapes, you might consider imaging their contents before bulk-erasing ... you never know, you might have some interesting software! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Mar 25 05:33:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:33:51 +0000 Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 23:48 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: > ... So what's the slowest classic machine to boot (to the point where a user can start using the machine, say)? Modern paranoia checks for correct PSU voltages etc. don't count! :-) I mean time as it would have taken when the machine was new, including time to physically load any tapes etc. (and standard period checks are of course OK) Our PDP 11/84 was rather horrendous when it came to loading Ultrix from its RA81, but I'm sure there must be *much* worse out there. Seems to me that the 70's and early 80's were the worst; more recent machines did a little better. Our Elliott 803 and Marconi TAC (both circa 1960) take a while as everything has to warm up and voltages have to be checked (via built-in panel meters though), but they're still quick as there's no resident code to load... (although I suppose by the book the first things done would be to run memory / CPU test progs, which would take a while to go through) cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Mar 25 05:46:21 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:46:21 -0500 Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <0IDW0056EON9KH@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>So what's the slowest classic machine to boot (to the point where a user >>can start using the machine I would have to say it was the lab's PDP-8 back in the mid 70's. Boot was 1) Toggle in RIM Loader Bootstrap 2) Load RIM Loader Paper Tape 3) Load BIN Loader Paper Tape 4) Load FOCAL Paper Tape 5) Load Application Paper Tape All from a good ol' ASR-33.... From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Mar 25 06:43:18 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:43:18 GMT Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1111750431.3842.23.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Modern paranoia checks for correct PSU voltages etc. don't count! :-) Paranoia checks wouldn't be necessary if PSUs weren't commonly made for cheapness. It takes no more than a few comparators to check the voltages and even that's "too expensive" or "impractical"... I've seen PC PSUs that use a 555 to generate the POWER_GOOD signal (they literally wait a second before asserting POWER_GOOD, even if the power lines are well out of spec)! Later, -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Oh no not again. That Holodeck is always breaking down. - Picard. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Mar 25 07:04:30 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:04:30 GMT Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <1111749690.3827.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111749690.3827.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <0c3f2e514d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1111749690.3827.11.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Thin clients do a little better usually. Beats me what the heck a modern > PC's BIOS does on startup by the way to make it take so long. Mostly delays. The Award BIOS, for example, gives the hard drives 5 seconds EACH to initialise, plus another 5 seconds for the controller to initialise. If there's nothing on the IDE/ATA bus, it takes 25 seconds (or sometimes longer) for the BIOS to finally decide that there's nothing there. Then there's PnP initialisation and all the insane power checks. Some BIOSes take an average of the supply voltages over the course of 3-7 seconds... > Umm... thin client...? ;) Um... Server for thin client? > Don't things like Norton Ghost take care of imaging a Windows OS between > machines? Or do they only work when the source and target drives are the > same size? And of course in the Unix world cloning a disk is easy as > all the tools are already there. Ghost has this rotten tendency of falling over without erroring out, scrambling the destination drive in the process. You don't find out that the copy failed until you try and read from the destination drive. I've had much better luck with "dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/hdb1 bs=32M". The partitions don't even have to be the same size - run resize.reiserfs (IIRC) and/or FAT Resizer after the clone and the inodes/FATs/superblocks are updated to match the new partition geometry. > Memory tests on a "real" system need to be thorough at boot time too for > obvious reasons In my experience, the BIOS memory checks are worse than useless (false sense of security). The only surefire RAM check is MemTest86 left for a few hours in "burn in" mode. > Different for desktops though; 90% of the time I'm using about 30% > of the RAM in this PC... I guess you're using Linux or BSD then. [fx: checks headers]. Hmm. Ximian Evolution. That'll be Linux with GNOME then. > I miss the days of the 8-bit "desktop" machines (CMB/Sinclair etc.) - > turn it on and it's ready, no messing around... [fx: Brrrr-Bip!] Acorn MOS Acorn 1770 DFS BASIC > Gotta love the BBC Micro.. a boot time of less than a second, 1MHz Bus port, User port, onboard floppy controller, printer port, RS423, and a 6502 CPU. The height of expandable hardware (ignoring, perhaps, the Apple II, but I've never even seen one of those so I can't really comment). I would however like to get an Apple II for my collection (or what I laughably call a 'collection'), assuming my Microvitec Cub653 can sync to its video output. If it's standard PAL- or NTSC-resolution RGB, it should only be a case of bodging up an adapter cable. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 25 07:53:02 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:53:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Televideo 950 docs In-Reply-To: <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have a set of schematics for a Televideo 950 terminal? Mine powers up and beeps, but there's no video. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Mar 25 08:28:14 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:28:14 -0500 Subject: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's In-Reply-To: <003701c5312e$237f7760$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <003701c5312e$237f7760$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1111760894.22974.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Hmm, ok all. I'll go slink back under my rock now. ;) I'll see if I can't pick up some form of bulk eraser from MCM, after I check the contents a little closer.. Thanks, David On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 11:31 +0000, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >Due to my inability to read a EPay auction correctly, I'm now the > >"proud" owner of 25 CompacTape tapes. I was looking for CompacTape > >II's for my TK70 drive.. (oops) > > As others have mentioned, all you need to do is bulk erase them > and they'll work perfectly well. > > If they are official release tapes, you might consider > imaging their contents before bulk-erasing ... you never > know, you might have some interesting software! > > Antonio > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 25 09:13:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:13:26 -0500 Subject: FT: Would like to trade some TK50 ->TK70's References: <1111706712.19393.18.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <42438F59.6090708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <16964.10902.127155.873349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> Finding a bulk eraser may not be easy. I also tried it with Jerome> a large magnetic from an old speaker - about 10 lb. It seems Jerome> to work, but takes about 5 times as long. On the other hand, Jerome> the bulk eraser I user had a cycle life of only ONE tape at a Jerome> time after which it took about 10 minutes to cool down. ... Radio Shack sold bulk erasers that fit that description. If you can find a friendly radio station nearby, they may still have a bulk eraser. They all used to, and those are commercial grade machines that work quickly and won't die on you. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 25 09:16:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:16:16 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... References: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> <0IDW0067J944HM@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <16964.11072.670618.486656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> Others are just economies of scale. Consider disdk David> formatting. If you look at MB/S then today's drives are MUCH David> faster. If yuou look at "how long does it take to format this David> new drive", then the answer is about the same. Why would you format a drive, in the sense of writing all the blocks? There is no longer any such thing as a "low level format". So unless you're desperate to get rid of the manufacturing test pattern, you might as well do a 30 second "quick format" to initialize the file system. paul From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Fri Mar 25 09:37:33 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:37:33 -0500 Subject: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives Message-ID: <4244303D.4000703@splab.cas.neu.edu> I am getting rid of my 9 track tape drives. All drives are Cipher 880, 890, or 990. None are SCSI. I have one Kennedy I promised to ship to England. I also have 4 formatters for the older style drives. It is all going in the dumpster. If anybody wants it, let me know and we can make arrangements for you to pick the stuff up. If you need more info, let me know as well, off list. Oh, yes, one is a Cipher 910640, which is the upright style, the others are all the pizza-oven style. If I have forgotten and already promised some of this stuff to certain people, now is the time to speak up! Any manuals that I had are still with Al, but they may be on bitsavers by now. Cheers, Joe Heck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 25 10:14:08 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:14:08 -0500 Subject: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:37:33 EST." <4244303D.4000703@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <200503251614.j2PGE8V7030795@mwave.heeltoe.com> joe heck wrote: >I am getting rid of my 9 track tape drives. All drives are Cipher 880, >890, or 990. None are SCSI. >I have one Kennedy I promised to ship to England. I also have 4 >formatters for the older style drives. >It is all going in the dumpster. If anybody wants it, let me know and >we can make arrangements for you I'll take them! Well, I'll take any with pertec interfaces which can read 800, 1600, 3200 and 6520. Or any combo there of. and, I'll come pick them up :-) -brad Brad Parker +1-781-483-3101 From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Mar 25 10:20:04 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:20:04 -0500 Subject: Linux SCSI Target Mode driver for Adaptec SCSI cards In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:37:33 EST." <4244303D.4000703@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <200503251620.j2PGK48Y031123@mwave.heeltoe.com> I found this on sourceforge Linux SCSI Target Mode driver for Adaptec SCSI cards http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-scsi-tm/ Upon casual inspection, it looks like the right thing. But it's not for the faint of heart. I have no idea if it works, but it looks right. I think I'll fire up a box with the proper scsi card and see if I can get it to pretend it's a disk. -brad From CPUMECH at aol.com Fri Mar 25 10:21:51 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:21:51 EST Subject: Televideo 950 docs Message-ID: <194.3b5cf939.2f75949f@aol.com> Take a look at the Bi-polar cap on the monitor bd. C306 usually a 22ufNP. Televideo's are known for the to overheat and fail. From Mark at Misty.com Fri Mar 25 10:23:55 2005 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:23:55 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050325162355.GA2015@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 10:50:57AM -0500, Andrew Erlanger wrote: > Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone > has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. > > Thanks, Andy Erlanger Do you need 8" or 5"? Somewhere I have some 8" ones, which I used with my 820-II motherboard and homebrew case/drives/monitor/keyboard setup. I'd actually really like to find an 820-II some day. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From aserlanger at earthlink.net Fri Mar 25 09:50:57 2005 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (Andrew Erlanger) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:50:57 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II Message-ID: Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. Thanks, Andy Erlanger From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Mar 25 10:56:36 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:56:36 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect old tax software programs? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050325114942.00cd19b0@mail.degnanco.net> I have a lot of old tax preparation programs, multiple OS formats mostly in the "newer vintage" timeframe, but some older stuff too. I thought I remembered someone posting a notice looking for accounting software. I plan to re-use the disks for scratch, especially the newer 5 1/4" PC format software, if I do not get any takers. If interested contact me - billdeg at aol dot com. -Bill From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Mar 25 13:42:18 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:42:18 +0100 Subject: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives References: <200503251614.j2PGE8V7030795@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <001c01c53172$c13ab4d0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Brad Parker" Subject: Re: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives > joe heck wrote: > >I am getting rid of my 9 track tape drives. > I'll take them! > > Well, I'll take any with pertec interfaces which can read 800, 1600, > 3200 and 6520. > > Or any combo there of. > > and, I'll come pick them up :-) > Does that include Denmark ? I have some Qualstar 1052's, doing 1600 and 3200 bps. Even a spare readformatter board (brandnew) Nico From bob at applegate.org Fri Mar 25 13:43:09 2005 From: bob at applegate.org (Bob Applegate) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:43:09 -0500 Subject: Various Intel tool manuals free for cost of shipping Message-ID: <034f01c53172$e0234dd0$bb2119ac@pcapplegatep> I've got some manuals, but NO DISKS for some older Intel tools; the stuff is taking up room on my limited cube desk space. It is possible that the disks will eventually turn up, but don't count on it. Anyway, I have these manuals, all in good shape, all in their original slide-in boxes as a four-box set. The copyrights appear to be all from 1988. * Intel ASM386 Macro Assembler Operating Instructions for DOS Systems * Intel iC-86/286/386 Compiler User's Guide for DOS Systems * Intel386 Family System Builder User's Guide This has two boxes. The caveats? A few... * YOU pay all shipping. I'll ship, send you a UPS tracking number and a total, then you pay via check, money order or PayPal. * YOU agree to add it to a museum, use for personal use, etc. You may NOT just turn around and sell them on eBay. If you've got some unwanted KIM-1 stuff, I'd be more than happy to exchange this Intel stuff for your KIM material! I hope to be at TCS in a few weeks and would consider delivering them in person. Questions? Just ask! Thanks Bob ------------------------------------------------- Bob Applegate Senior Software Engineer Embedded Development Group Ulticom, Inc 856-787-2761 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 25 14:45:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:45:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <16964.11072.670618.486656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> <0IDW0067J944HM@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <16964.11072.670618.486656@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200503252051.PAA02406@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Why would you format a drive, in the sense of writing all the blocks? To change fundamental aspects such as sector size; to get the bad block detection and remapping that accompanies it - to name just two. > There is no longer any such thing as a "low level format". What do you think a FORMAT UNIT command does, then? On the handful of occasions I've had call to use it, it's certainly acted as though it's doing what it's supposed to. > So unless you're desperate to get rid of the manufacturing test > pattern, you might as well do a 30 second "quick format" to > initialize the file system. Which of course is not formatting at all, and should not be called formatting; it is more honestly called making a filesystem. (This is one of the botches I lay at the door of MS-DOS and its relatives: they rolled formatting and filesystem construction into the same program in the beginning, with floppies, and then when moving to fixed disks, they kept the same name but dropped the actual formatting functionality. As a result, we now have a whole population that confuses formatting with making filesystems.) But the original poster's basic point stands: it takes roughly the same amount of time to format a "big disk" now as it took to format a "big disk" then, or to make a filesystem on a "big disk" now as it took to make a filesystem on a "big disk" then. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Mar 25 15:00:51 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:00:51 -0800 Subject: Release 0.6 of PDP-11 SIMH for Mac OS X Message-ID: Folks not interested in DEC PDP-11s and SIMH may want to ignore this. However for those interested in PDP-11s that have Mac OS X, I am pleased to announce that a Mac OS X-specific port of the PDP-11 simulation of SIMH is available for download. Please use the following URL to access the instructions and .dmg file: This application is a port of PDP-11 simulation only of SIMH V3.3-2 (the current release) to the Macintosh OS X environment. The application requires a G3 or newer with OS 10.2 or later in order to execute properly. Features of the application include: - Built-in complete VT100 emulation. No need to use Terminal.app to access the console or run the simulation. The VT100 supports copy & paste between applications. Emulation is very complete and has been tested with TECO/VT, KED, and EDT. - Built-in PDP-11 front console panel. The panel emulates a PDP-11/70 console and can appear in one of three variants. All switches are functional except S INST/S BUS CYCLE. Almost all lights are functional. Keyboard equivalents are available for all console switches. The Console also has an optional "speedometer." - Interface to SIMH is either through SCP commands in the VT100 window or Macintosh native menus and dialogs. - Dynamic tool tips (formerly balloon help) are supported in all windows and dialogs. - On-line help and documentation. - The application looks for a fixed configuration file (~/.simh-pdp11rc) at startup. All file commands may specify relative paths with ~ or ~user. - The application can optionally spool LPT output to a PostScript printer, simulating greenbar paper, as the simulation creates it. - The application supports Processor Services allowing other applications to send commands to the VT100 or Console windows. Copy and paste is supported in the VT100 window. Drag and drop will be supported in future releases. - The application provides desktop icons for tape container files (.tap). Tapes (.tap and .tk50) can be attached while the simulation is executing by double clicking on the files. [This capability soon to be added for disk container files as well.] Please enjoy and send any feedback directly to me. Thanks, John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Mar 25 15:29:04 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:29:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Televideo 950 docs In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050324214756.0291bb38@pop.xs4all.nl> <424331D5.6030100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200503252130.QAA02591@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone have a set of schematics for a Televideo 950 terminal? > Mine powers up and beeps, but there's no video. I don't, but I have some 950s if anyone wants them. (I'm no longer using them for anything; I'd be happy to get rid of them, even happier if they went to someone who actually has a use for them.) I might even be able to rip one apart and trace the pc boards enough to construct a schematic, but that depends on them not doing things like 6-layer pc boards. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 15:53:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <4243A170.7020505@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050325135109.K19127@shell.lmi.net> > David V. Corbin wrote: > > It STILL takes the same amount of time for a system to boot.. > > It STILL takes the same amount of time to format a disk.. > > It STILL takes the same amount of time to install a (basic) OS > > It STILL takes the same amount of time to customize the OS On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Not really surprising: As much as computing power has increased, software > complexity has increased right along with it. Everything you mentioned is a > software issue. Very simply, Boyle's law (software expands to use all available resources) outpaces Moore's law (performance doubles every 18 months) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 16:03:03 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:03:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > several decades we've seen hardware get bigger and faster by several > orders of magnitude, but software hasn't done anything of the sort. Software HAS gotten bigger. Software has gotten SLOWER. "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) "If it isn't fast enough, throw hardware at it." - MICROS~1 From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Mar 25 16:37:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:37:58 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will Fred> again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 25 16:39:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:39:25 -0700 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4244931D.6090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > >>several decades we've seen hardware get bigger and faster by several >>orders of magnitude, but software hasn't done anything of the sort. >> >> > >Software HAS gotten bigger. >Software has gotten SLOWER. > >"Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." > - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) >"If it isn't fast enough, throw hardware at it." > - MICROS~1 > > > I think the problem is nobody DOC's assembly langauge programming or have a GUI that you can use with bare hardware. I think software has kept the same speed, because the value of Memory size VS memory speed has been mostly constant. Ben alias woodelf. PS. -- MICROS-1 must be origin of system crashes. :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 25 16:22:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:22:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cables for RX50 in BA23 In-Reply-To: <4243945C.5050901@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Mar 24, 5 11:32:28 pm Message-ID: > >There is a single, unmarked, jumper on the seek/interface PCB in the RX50 > >-- the one mounted verticalled at the back of the drive that the > >interface cables plug into. It's normally unjumpered. Jumering it will > >change the drive selects from 0,1 to 2,3. I don't know if that's what > >needs to be done, but it seems likely. > > > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > As usual, the expert knows a bit more. Hardly an expert... I jsut got to know the insides of the RX50 when getting my 'bow working again. > > Do you need to remove the case to find the jumper? Yes. But that's easy to do. Just remove the mouting plate (4 screws) and the case will sldie off (it's held on by the same screws). Nothing springs out either. > I must admit that the only other time I removed > the RX50 case was to give one that did not work > to my grandson. I had rescued about 50 from a > dumpster and could not use them all. He was very > angry that day and used a big hammer to convert > the RX50 into very small pieces. It was such Argh!!! Why didn't you teach your grandson something useful. There's a perfectlu good DC motor in there which can be run off batteries. And the stepper motor. And a couple of visible LEDs.... Kids these days are never taught to hack anything, which is presumably why so few of them ever do. Oh well... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 17:03:54 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:03:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will > again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? The biggest reason why I don't think that I should retire yet - I teach an assembly language class. They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Mar 25 17:13:06 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:13:06 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2d9c447875ea46b01d230ac5c7e40f3f@xlisper.mv.com> Care to share it with us? It sounds intriguing. On Mar 25, 2005, at 6:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will >> again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) > > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? > > The biggest reason why I don't think that I should retire yet - > I teach an assembly language class. > > > They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. > > They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote > out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, > and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 25 17:16:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:16:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Release 0.6 of PDP-11 SIMH for Mac OS X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, John A. Dundas III wrote: > Folks not interested in DEC PDP-11s and SIMH may want to ignore this. > However for those interested in PDP-11s that have Mac OS X, I am > pleased to announce that a Mac OS X-specific port of the PDP-11 > simulation of SIMH is available for download. Please use the > following URL to access the instructions and .dmg file: > > Hi John. Nice work! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 25 17:18:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:18:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... Message-ID: <200503252318.PAA01185@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will >> again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) > >On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? > >The biggest reason why I don't think that I should retire yet - >I teach an assembly language class. > > >They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. > >They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way >but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote >out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, >and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. Hi I don't believe that the Turing test does recursion. If that is so, they would have to believe that they just proved that it couldn't be calculated on a computer with or without recursion. An intersting exception to the Turning test? Dwight > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 25 17:31:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:31:41 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <200503252318.PAA01185@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503252318.PAA01185@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050325173110.04b032c0@mail> At 05:18 PM 3/25/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I don't believe that the Turing test does recursion. >If that is so, they would have to believe that they just >proved that it couldn't be calculated on a computer >with or without recursion. An intersting exception to >the Turing test? Turing test? The one where he wants to sort the men from the women? - John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Mar 25 17:47:34 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:47:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... Message-ID: <200503252347.PAA01197@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Foust" > >At 05:18 PM 3/25/2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> I don't believe that the Turing test does recursion. >>If that is so, they would have to believe that they just >>proved that it couldn't be calculated on a computer >>with or without recursion. An intersting exception to >>the Turing test? > >Turing test? The one where he wants to sort the men from the women? > >- John > > Oops! I meant the Turing machine used as a test for computability. Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 25 17:47:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:47:56 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <0c3f2e514d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111749690.3827.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <0c3f2e514d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <4244A32C.8060205@oldskool.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > The only surefire RAM check is MemTest86 left for a few hours > in "burn in" mode. You can't trust this 100%. We had a problem with a SuperMicro board; database kept getting scrambled occaisionally. Ran memtest86 on burn-in mode for 24 hours -- never found a problem -- boot back into the OS and bam, scrambled data again. When we replaced one of the memory sticks as a last ditch effort, it fixed the problem. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 18:18:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:18:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <200503252318.PAA01185@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503252318.PAA01185@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050325160733.C22527@shell.lmi.net> [Clancy and Harvey] > >They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. > >They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > >but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote > >out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, > >and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, David Betz wrote: > Care to share it with us? It sounds intriguing. On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I don't believe that the Turing test does recursion. > If that is so, they would have to believe that they just > proved that it couldn't be calculated on a computer > with or without recursion. An intersting exception to > the Turning test? It's been a bunch of years, and I don't remember the wording of the problem, other than that I could resolve it into traversing all locations of a 6 by 6 array. They also apparently teach their students that recursion is the only way to calculate factorial, Fibonacci sequence, prime numbers, subdirectory trees, etc. "To a man who has a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." "To a man with MICROS~1 tools, the whole world looks like a thumb." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lab at lincolnbaxter.com Fri Mar 25 18:34:52 2005 From: lab at lincolnbaxter.com (Lincoln A. Baxter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:34:52 -0500 Subject: Sun Sparc 1+ workstation FREE Message-ID: <1111797292.13116.210.camel@lws> Hi All, I have a Sum Sparc 1+ workstation, w kbrd, optical mouse, extern 1 gig Disk, Monitor (1200x1024), that will eventually find its way to the local recycle bin, if someone doesn't want it. The battery on the CPU board is dead, so the system does not remember how to boot. The system as SunOS 4.1.x loaded on it. ( From the new prompt: boot sd 0,2,0 or something like that ) It was last booted probably in 1998 or 99. The system is located in Philadelphia area (19460 zip code). All you have to do, is arrange to have it packed and shipped, or pick it up. Original packing materials are not available. Please reply off list if you are interested. Lincoln From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 25 18:36:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:36:50 -0500 Subject: Free uVax/PDP-11 systems, SCSI controllers, etc., Washington DC area Message-ID: <4244AEA2.nail7BW11H1YA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Free in the Washington DC area, you pick up only, will not ship: KA650-based uVax III in rack-mount BA213, with SCSI controller, 9-track 1600/6250 drive, SCSI disk drives, SCSI CD-ROM, all in H960 (6-foot) rack. Q-bus system with 11/73 (KDJ11B) CPU, SCSI controller, 9-track 1600/6250 drive, SCSI disk drive, SCSI tape drive, all in H960 (6-foot) rack. Several DSD-440 dual 8" floppy systems and controllers. All the associated cables, power controllers, etc., to run the above systems. A five-foot non-DEC rack. etc. First-come, first served. SCSI controllers not available separately. You'll need a really big station wagon or mini-van or small truck to fit the racks. E-mail me at my regular address, shoppa at trailing-edge.com, if interested. Stuff available for pick-up on evenings and this weekend. Tim. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Mar 25 18:40:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:40:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? Well, maybe "nearly nobody" should be dropped into that quite in place of just "nobody". Assembly language isn't dead, just REALLY close. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spc at conman.org Fri Mar 25 19:31:47 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:31:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4244A32C.8060205@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Mar 25, 2005 05:47:56 PM Message-ID: <20050326013147.8F29273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > The only surefire RAM check is MemTest86 left for a few hours > > in "burn in" mode. > > You can't trust this 100%. We had a problem with a SuperMicro board; database > kept getting scrambled occaisionally. Ran memtest86 on burn-in mode for 24 > hours -- never found a problem -- boot back into the OS and bam, scrambled data > again. When we replaced one of the memory sticks as a last ditch effort, it > fixed the problem. I've found that compiling the Linux kernel to be an excellent test of a system. -spc (And if GCC failed compiling the kernel, it was almost always a sign of bad memory ... ) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Mar 25 19:55:48 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:55:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Software HAS gotten bigger. > Software has gotten SLOWER. > > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." > - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) > "If it isn't fast enough, throw hardware at it." > - MICROS~1 I lost all respect for one of our programmers when after explaining why I implemented a feature a certain way because it was faster, she asked "Why don't you just run it on a faster computer?" Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lab at lincolnbaxter.com Fri Mar 25 20:05:47 2005 From: lab at lincolnbaxter.com (Lincoln A. Baxter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:05:47 -0500 Subject: Sun Sparc 1+ workstation FREE In-Reply-To: <1111797292.13116.210.camel@lws> References: <1111797292.13116.210.camel@lws> Message-ID: <1111802748.13111.212.camel@lws> On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 19:34 -0500, Lincoln A. Baxter wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a Sum Sparc 1+ workstation, w kbrd, optical mouse, extern 1 gig > Disk, Monitor (1200x1024), Correction: 1280x1024 (sorry) > that will eventually find its way to the > local recycle bin, if someone doesn't want it. The battery on the CPU > board is dead, so the system does not remember how to boot. The system > as SunOS 4.1.x loaded on it. > > ( From the new prompt: boot sd 0,2,0 > or something like that ) > > It was last booted probably in 1998 or 99. > > The system is located in Philadelphia area (19460 zip code). All you > have to do, is arrange to have it packed and shipped, or pick it up. > Original packing materials are not available. > > Please reply off list if you are interested. > > Lincoln > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Mar 25 20:06:37 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:06:37 -0500 Subject: Commodore Adding Machine plus FREE stuff to get rid of Message-ID: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> Okay here's the deal. I bought this Commodore 202 adding machine from Goodwill a few years ago, I think for $2.00. I promised it to someone for 7.00 plus shipping, but I never got around to making it happen. I can't recall who I promised it to, Though. If I promised to you, please let me know if you still want it, or not. I want to get it out of my way .... I box it up and ship it this time! It does have a piece broken out of the case by the plug. I don't know if it works as I've never tried plugging it in. Free: 2 72-pin 4 meg simms, marked "ASSY IN USA POWMEM" 1 IBM 7024-113 wide scsi case, that I think is only good for 3.5" single ended drives. The board that has the external connectors on it says "Single Ended EPOW". It's dis-assembled. The inside bottom part of the chassis has some corrosion on it.... not rust, it's whitish and is from when I tried soaking off some sticky stuff off of it, it should clean up. I never did get all the sticky stuff off. The rest of it is very nice. I'd use it myself, but I need a case for 5.25" FH drives, not a 3.5" drive. Please respond privately. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From william.layer at comcast.net Fri Mar 25 20:20:32 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:20:32 -0600 Subject: TU-56 capacitor repair (part numbers) In-Reply-To: References: <64149.64.139.41.130.1111454133.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: <20050325202032.671465c3.william.layer@comcast.net> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:52:00 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Although there was not enough evidence left to > > prove it, we believe that a tantalum capacitor had been installed > > backwards. > > May not have been.... I've had tantalum capacitors 'go up' for no good > reason, they burn spectacularly give off a large cloud of smoke, and > often the remains on the boasrd is glwoing red-hot at the end. I'll second that notion; tantalums are really nasty parts. Used incorrectly, any part might fail, but as time has gone by, my impression of tantalum parts is about like 'ticking time-bomb'. I've seen more than several burninate for no real reason. -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 25 20:30:54 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:30:54 -0800 Subject: DEC Paper Tape On EBay Message-ID: <4244C95E.9020301@ix.netcom.com> Don't know if this is of interest or not: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5763091474&rd=1 I know eBay is not popular here, but I rarely see these boxes any more. Even regular oiled 1" tape is down to a few niche dealers. Billy From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 25 20:53:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:53:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <0IDW0056EON9KH@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IDW0056EON9KH@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <20050325185133.N1175@localhost> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, David V. Corbin wrote: > I would have to say it was the lab's PDP-8 back in the mid 70's. Boot was > > 1) Toggle in RIM Loader Bootstrap > 2) Load RIM Loader Paper Tape > 3) Load BIN Loader Paper Tape > 4) Load FOCAL Paper Tape > 5) Load Application Paper Tape > > > All from a good ol' ASR-33.... I worked at a place once that had three core cards. On one was the editor, or whatever, on another was the compiler/assembler, and the third stayed resident as work or storage space. ASR33 console of course. APparently to book EDSAC involved climbing a flight of stairs. From tomj at wps.com Fri Mar 25 21:06:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote > out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, > and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. That's because youre a real programmer and understand what a computer is. None of our (actually very smart and some even experienced) grad students actually know what a computer is. I don't think hardly anyone does. We had a little robotics project, a bunch of little controllers that take commands from a big host, and they wanted to write it all in Java, threading, tasks, etc. I showed the programmer how to do non-blocking parallel tasks (serial command string
and a PWM task driving pneumatic actuators) using a simple one-byte state variable and a dispatch table. They'd absolutely never heard of such a thing. We did this in a PIC. The lightbulb went on in the programmer kid's head -- on an unrelated project he used the state variable thing in a c++ prog and got his program done faster and it ran faster than all the threaded junk with interprocess communications. Well duh. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Mar 25 21:58:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:58:52 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: > Assembly language isn't dead, just REALLY close. I fully disagree; compilers output assembly. As long as there are compilers, there will be assembly. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 25 22:02:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:02:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jim wrote: > I fully disagree; compilers output assembly. As long as there are > compilers, there will be assembly. Some compilers output assembly. But many output only machine code, which is NOT the same thing. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 25 22:06:50 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:06:50 -0700 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <4244DFDA.6030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >Jim wrote: > > >>I fully disagree; compilers output assembly. As long as there are >>compilers, there will be assembly. >> >> > >Some compilers output assembly. But many output only machine code, >which is NOT the same thing. > >Eric > > Now REAL programming in machine code does require the real blinking lights... :) Ben alias woodelf From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 25 22:49:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:49:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC Message-ID: Ok, starting over here since there's been a long hiatus since the last time I messed around with this. I'm experimenting with different 8" disks trying to figure out what's going on. First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M 5.25" drive. Second, the 8" drive can successfully format/read/write an 8" drive when I have the BIOS configured for a 5.25" 1.2M drive. My drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link to the manual they scanned, and now I can't find that person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm so sorry!) But at any rate, of the 3 measley links that come back from Google, I see that this drive is DSDD. Still don't know if it can do FM however. I have some 8" disks in both CP/M and DOS 2.11 format from my NEC APC. They both read fine on the NEC APC. I'm trying to read targeted sectors using debug. With the CP/M disk, I try to L 0 0 0 1 (Load at address 0, drive 0, sector 0, 1 sector) and get: Not ready reading drive A Ok, so I try L 0 0 1 1 and after a longer pause get: General failure reading drive A Hmm, I'm still new to this, but this seems like a density issue. Tried on the DOS 2.11 disk and got the exact same errors on both read attempts. I formatted an 8" disk under DOS, then tried L 0 0 0 1 from debug and successfully load the sector into memory. What's interesting is if I try to read sector 0 from the NEC DOS disk and get the "Not ready reading drive A (Abort, Retry, Fail)" error, then immediately put in my known readable formatted DOS disk and hit R)etry, I get the same error ("Not ready reading drive A"). If I abort and then retry, it works fine. Or if I wait at the Abort, Retry, Fail prompt for a little while then retry, it also works. Hmmm.... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Mar 25 23:03:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:03:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Update: I was using one of those tape drive extender cables so I could easily swap the cables between my 8" drive and my normal 3.5/5.25 drives and it was missing pin 2. I connected the 8" cable directly to the controller and now I'm getting slightly different results. When I now try to load any sector from debug I am getting a sector not found error. I downloaded a utility that shows the RPM of the drive. With the DOS formatted disk in the drive it shows the RPM at 360. If I put in either of the NEC CP/M or DOS disks, it errors out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 23:08:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:08:44 -0500 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:49:01 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > 5.25" drive. Are you sure about this? I thought the only difference between 160K disks and 180K disks was 8 sectors per track vs 9 sectors per track. I don't remember an FM/MFM difference (but I could easily be wrong). > Second, the 8" drive can successfully format/read/write an 8" [disk]... > Still don't know if it can do FM however. FM vs MFM is a controller issue, not a drive issue. The drive should be fine, even if it weren't a Tandon 848 (which is a fine drive... I have one in a Dataram Qbus chassis with a Dataram Qbus controller). Unfortunately, I can't give you any specific help with your 8"-on-a-PC problem... I have limited CP/M experience on 8"-equipped machines (I have one, but haven't played with it)... mostly, I've used 5.25" disks on Kaypros, and RX01s and RX02s... not what you are looking for. Someone here mentioned a utility (IIRC) that should tell you for certain if your floppy controller can do FM... I can't remember exactly what that is, but I would expect _that_ to be the way to go. Also, if you are doing this with an older motherboard (no onboard floppy controller in particular), it might be easier to be sure exactly what FDC you are using. All I can suggest is to focus more on your choice of FDC and application software and less on the floppy mechanism itself. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 25 22:25:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:25:58 -0600 Subject: DEC Paper Tape On EBay References: <4244C95E.9020301@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <01f301c531c2$6fe3be60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Billy wrote... > Don't know if this is of interest or not: Yes, it is. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5763091474&rd=1 (paper tape fanfold DEC on ebay) > I know eBay is not popular here, but I rarely see these boxes any more. Ebay is very popular here. People just don't like to admit it ;) > Even regular oiled 1" tape is down to a few niche dealers. Yes, but... 10.50 starting price is a tad high, westnc is about 7 bucks per reel, but that's not fanfold. More to the point, I have a fairly good supply of DEC brand fan-fold blank tape. I want to keep the bulk of it, but, I'd be open to trading a box or two for something interesting. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 25 22:29:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:29:21 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net><10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01f401c531c2$700242e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." >> - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) I do, darn near daily. Idiots. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 25 22:43:07 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:43:07 -0600 Subject: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives References: <200503251614.j2PGE8V7030795@mwave.heeltoe.com> <001c01c53172$c13ab4d0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <01f601c531c2$7037aac0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... >> joe heck wrote: >> >I am getting rid of my 9 track tape drives. My 9914 is on the fritz, probably the ADP board. Does anyone have a spare 9914 that works, or at least one with a known good ADP board? Jay West From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Mar 25 23:13:17 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:13:17 -0600 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC References: Message-ID: <000601c531c2$88cab690$2d92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:49 PM > Ok, starting over here since there's been a long hiatus since the last > time I messed around with this. > > I'm experimenting with different 8" disks trying to figure out what's > going on. > > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > 5.25" drive. By 160K I assume you are refering to DOS 2+ 160K MFM format using 250kbs transfer rate. This absolutely proves your system can handle MFM, I could have guessed that without looking. > Second, the 8" drive can successfully format/read/write an 8" drive when I > have the BIOS configured for a 5.25" 1.2M drive. My drive is a Tandon TM > 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link to the manual they scanned, and now I > can't find that person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm so sorry!) > But at any rate, of the 3 measley links that come back from Google, I see > that this drive is DSDD. Still don't know if it can do FM however. > > I have some 8" disks in both CP/M and DOS 2.11 format from my NEC APC. > They both read fine on the NEC APC. > > I'm trying to read targeted sectors using debug. > > With the CP/M disk, I try to L 0 0 0 1 (Load at address 0, drive 0, sector > 0, 1 sector) and get: > > Not ready reading drive A > > Ok, so I try L 0 0 1 1 and after a longer pause get: > > General failure reading drive A > > Hmm, I'm still new to this, but this seems like a density issue. > > Tried on the DOS 2.11 disk and got the exact same errors on both read > attempts. > > I formatted an 8" disk under DOS, then tried L 0 0 0 1 from debug and > successfully load the sector into memory. > > What's interesting is if I try to read sector 0 from the NEC DOS disk and > get the "Not ready reading drive A (Abort, Retry, Fail)" error, then > immediately put in my known readable formatted DOS disk and hit R)etry, I > get the same error ("Not ready reading drive A"). If I abort and then > retry, it works fine. Or if I wait at the Abort, Retry, Fail prompt for a > little while then retry, it also works. > > Hmmm.... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] The possible problems are innumerable. Start by using 22disk to try and read an APC double density disk. You can try to format an 8" SSSD disk from the PC and copy files to it. Make sure you are running a real DOS and not a shell from within windoze. Make sure you are using 22disk version 1.42. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 25 23:15:35 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:15:35 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Some recently mentioned that they had a significant amount of Cromemco software, if that person would be willing to allow me to make dup's of their disks I would appreciate it, I have a CP/M system with both 5.25" and 8" disks on it so I can handle reading both types, I have a Z2 that I'd like to get up and running again and I would really like to get copies of CDOS and any Cromemco specific utils, thanks. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Mar 25 23:21:40 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:21:40 -0500 Subject: Annex Terminal Servers... In-Reply-To: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4244F164.6030702@atarimuseum.com> Anyone here familiar with Annex Terminal Servers, I have a pair of them, I only plan to use one so if anyone is interested let me know... Meanwhile... I have one unit up and working like a charm on my vax system so I can use my PC to control the console port over my LAN. The Annex Term server is working fine on my local subnet, however for some reason it will not talk across from a remote system on another subnet through my firewall/router... I have successfully connected to a Win 2K Telnet server that I set to the same IP, so I know the firewall port forward settings are fine and the port is open on 23 and communicating... however the Annex term server seems to see the traffic, but just wont allow a cross subnet connection to occur... Does anyone have any familiarity with Bay Networks Annex term servers? Is it possible to communicate across multiple subnets to/from this unit? I had hoped to give remote access to my Vax to a friend of mine, he and I have been working on restoring numerous 9 Tracks and RL02's and I'd hope to have given him remote access without having to tie up an entire PC to do the job, any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.1 - Release Date: 3/23/2005 From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Mar 26 00:03:39 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:03:39 -0600 Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4244FB3B.6030303@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 23:48 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>... > > > So what's the slowest classic machine to boot (to the point where a user > can start using the machine, say)? The obscure Wang 3300 took around 40 minutes to get it into BASIC. I couldn't believe these numbers myself but I have had multiple first hand accounts, including from a Wang sales guy, that it was true. It took longer if there was a read error, which wasn't too infrequent, and you didn't know it until the end of those 40 minutes. It was a multi-step tape loading process. I haven't updated my web site on the 3300 in a long time, and I need to fix it to correct my attempts to refute that 40 minute boot time: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/3300.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 26 00:07:08 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:07:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8' drive on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33982.64.169.63.74.1111817228.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote: > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > 5.25" drive. 160K PC format is single-sided double-density (MFM), 8 sectors per track of 512 bytes each, so that doesn't tell you anything about the FM capability of the controller, or lack thereof. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 26 00:15:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: <000601c531c2$88cab690$2d92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:49 PM > > Ok, starting over here since there's been a long hiatus since the last > > time I messed around with this. > > > > I'm experimenting with different 8" disks trying to figure out what's > > going on. > > > > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > > 5.25" drive. > > By 160K I assume you are refering to DOS 2+ 160K MFM format using 250kbs > transfer rate. This absolutely proves your system can handle MFM, I could > have guessed that without looking. Ok, silly me. I thought a 160K disk would be FM, not MFM. > The possible problems are innumerable. > > Start by using 22disk to try and read an APC double density disk. Doesn't work. I have an unregistered version of 1.44. I have a registered version of 1.2x (something like that) but I can't find it. I tried all kinds of different formats for the hell of it and none work. > You can try to format an 8" SSSD disk from the PC and copy files to it. How? DOS doesn't allow you to do this. Don't have a Linux box handy. Don't have time. For fuck's sake, didn't anyone ever write any decent DOS utilities to do this shit? (Yes, I know I am whiny, but I'm tired.) > Make sure you are running a real DOS and not a shell from within windoze. Of course: DOS 6.22. The last true DOS. The only OS MS ever did that was actual pretty stable and robust. > Make sure you are using 22disk version 1.42. 1.44 unregistered. The problem still remains I don't know if my controller handles FM. I don't even know if this is my problem, or if I even need my controller to handle FM. The disks I'm trying to read purport to be double density anyway. What the hell am I rambling about? I have no idea. I'm lame. I'm going home. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 26 00:31:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:31:03 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Jim wrote: > >>I fully disagree; compilers output assembly. As long as there are >>compilers, there will be assembly. > > Some compilers output assembly. But many output only machine code, > which is NOT the same thing. The point is that humans understanding low-level machine code is and always will be around. Saying that assembly is "dead" or "near death" is just short-sighted. I know several people other than myself in professional programming positions who use assembly all the time for critical inner loops where the compiler either doesn't optimize correctly, or doesn't know how because the program drives a new piece of hardware. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 26 00:38:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:38:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jim wrote: > The point is that humans understanding low-level machine code is and > always will be around. I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines with no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there be anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? Will they even be simple enough that it's possible to understand them the way we can understand a microprocessor today? But I agree with your point that assembly language is not dead, or even "nearly dead". Though it certainly seems to be much less used relative to other languages than it was even just ten years ago. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 26 00:52:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:52:04 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <42450694.7070905@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after > the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines with > no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there be > anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? Will they even > be simple enough that it's possible to understand them the way we can > understand a microprocessor today? Hundreds of years from now, there will be a new definition of "low level", and people will still understand and work with it. ("High level" in that time period is probably Star Trek-ian talking directly to the computer.) > But I agree with your point that assembly language is not dead, or > even "nearly dead". Though it certainly seems to be much less used > relative to other languages than it was even just ten years ago. *Much* is opinion, and gives away your viewpoint as outside professional programming industries. Is it used less? Depends on what you're trying to build. I find myself using assembly *more* than I did 20 years ago simply because I understand it better (and understand what my compiler doesn't). Is it used 100% to build applications? No; free C compilers and free OSes means that you never need to construct an application completely from scratch ever again. But I think you're omitting the use of in-line assembly for critical loops -- while in-line assembly may be less than 1% of a program, it can provide 50% of the optimization (above the algorithm itself, obviously) and is very much in use. There is an eleven-billion-dollar industry that uses assembly in every single one of its products, but mentioning it on this list is most likely a cardinal sin so I won't mention it (no, it's not porn). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 26 00:52:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:52:24 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050326015224.18797d6f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:58:52 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > > Assembly language isn't dead, just REALLY close. > > I fully disagree; compilers output assembly. As long as there are > compilers, there will be assembly. Furthermore, there are machines for which a stack-intensive environment like C just will not do the job. What comes to mind to me are some of the PIC and the tinier 6805 controllers, i.e. programming environments where you might have from 32-512 bytes of Read/Write memory for ALL your data needs. When you've got an app for a controller and the part can't cost more than fifty cents, you code it in Assembly Language. -Scott From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 26 01:05:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:05:04 -0600 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC References: Message-ID: <001201c531d2$2681c860$773cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 12:15 AM > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:49 PM >> You can try to format an 8" SSSD disk from the PC and copy files to it. > > How? DOS doesn't allow you to do this. Don't have a Linux box handy. > Don't have time. For fuck's sake, didn't anyone ever write any decent DOS > utilities to do this shit? (Yes, I know I am whiny, but I'm tired.) > >> Make sure you are running a real DOS and not a shell from within windoze. > > Of course: DOS 6.22. The last true DOS. The only OS MS ever did that was > actual pretty stable and robust. > >> Make sure you are using 22disk version 1.42. > > 1.44 unregistered. > > The problem still remains I don't know if my controller handles FM. I > don't even know if this is my problem, or if I even need my controller to > handle FM. The disks I'm trying to read purport to be double density > anyway. What the hell am I rambling about? I have no idea. I'm lame. > I'm going home. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I sent you a copy of 22dsk142 off list, it is required for 8" support. I repeat 22disk v1.42 is required for 8" support. Using 22disk v1.42 try and format an 8" SSSD disk, then still using 22disk v1.42 copy some files to it. 22disk v1.44 is OK for 5.25" support, even from a window in Win9X but it does not work right with 8" drives! If 22disk v1.42 gives you errors with SSSD you may not have a controller that supports FM. Get anadisk and test an APC disk to try and read it. Go to my website and check out the disk & disk drive page. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 26 01:11:55 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:11:55 -0600 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <002301c531d3$1b3cd840$773cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:15 PM > Hi, > > Some recently mentioned that they had a significant amount of Cromemco > software, if that person would be willing to allow me to make dup's of > their disks I would appreciate it, I have a CP/M system with both 5.25" > and 8" disks on it so I can handle reading both types, I have a Z2 that > I'd like to get up and running again and I would really like to get copies > of CDOS and any Cromemco specific utils, thanks. > > > > Curt I have one copy of CDOS posted on my site but it is messed up. I will be posting different CDOS files etc very soon (hopefully this weekend). I have a few different CDOS's, application software (assembler, 2 different basics, etc), 2 different CROMIX OS's, and more. The problem with Cromemco is the first track is formatted FM even on double density disks. Many PC's can not write bootable Cromemco disks. Dave Dunfield is working on some software that sends Cromemco disk images over a serial port to Cromemco's RDOS to create disks with any PC that has a serial port. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 26 01:15:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:15:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <42450694.7070905@oldskool.org> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42450694.7070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <34192.64.169.63.74.1111821300.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jim wrote: > Hundreds of years from now, there will be a new definition of "low level", > and people will still understand and work with it. Possibly. But it likely won't be anything at all like assembly language. I wrote about the prevalence of assembly language programming: >> certainly seems to be much less used >> relative to other languages than it was even just ten years ago. Jim wrote: > *Much* is opinion, Sure, it's opinion. I don't have solid numbers, and I don't know where to get them. But I'd be willing to wager real money that if well-researched figures on this subject existed, they would show that there are at least a thousand times more lines of code written worldwide per year in languages other than assembler, than there are in assembler. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the factor was over a million or even ten million. And I'm fairly sure that whatever the ratio is, it's larger than it was ten years ago, and still on an upward trend. > and gives away your viewpoint as outside professional > programming industries. I've been a programmer for 29 years now, professionally for more than 20 of that. Much of that has been in embedded systems, which in general are *more* likely to use assembly than software for general purpose computing. I even write a lot of assembly myself for microcontrollers. But even so, I *still* see that the industry as a whole appears to be using a very much lower percentage of assembly code than it was ten years ago. > Is it used less? Depends on what you're trying > to build. I find myself using assembly *more* than I did 20 years ago > simply because I understand it better (and understand what my compiler > doesn't). I understood assembly well back then, and still do now. Yet I write a much lower percentage of my code in assembly now than I did back then. Why? Because it's rarely necessary, and even though I'm fluent in assembly language, I still have better productivity in C or Ada. When profiling shows that an inner loop is a bottleneck, sure I'll consider recoding it in assembly. And when I'm writing timing-critical code to control hardware, which I've done plenty of (e.g., generate an NTSC composite color video signal in real time entirely in software), I'll do it in assembly. When I'm writing test routines for the PDP-1 restoration project, or for my own PDP-8, PDP-10, and PDP-11 systems, I do that in assembly. But for me, and for most programmers, those are the exceptions, not the rule. > while in-line assembly may be less than 1% of a program, it can > provide 50% of the optimization (above the algorithm itself, obviously) > and is very much in use. I never said that it wasn't still in use. But a program that uses 1% assembly code today probably would have been written using more like 5% assembly code ten years ago. Eric From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 01:43:36 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:43:36 -0500 Subject: my computer "museum" Message-ID: I have only 5 computers that are older than 10 years. But none is older than 20 years. It can barely be called a 'museum', but hey, at least it's on-line. http://www.wintersweet.com/computermuseum/ vax, 9000 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Mar 26 03:23:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 04:23:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <42450694.7070905@oldskool.org> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <42450694.7070905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200503260931.EAA15258@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There is an eleven-billion-dollar industry that uses assembly in > every single one of its products, but mentioning it on this list is > most likely a cardinal sin so I won't mention it (no, it's not porn). No, porn is probably *well* over $11G. (Assuming you mean per year.) I recently played all the way through Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, and the making-of video that you can watch when you've beat the game has, among other things, someone saying that their game engine contains some large number of lines of assembler. I don't remember the number, but it was large - 100K, 1M, 10M, something like that. I'm not sure whether to be impressed that they wrote something that big in assembly and made it that solid (I've found *one* bug in the game, and it's a level design bug, not a code bug), or horrified that they wrote the whole thing, rather than just the hotspots, in assembly. Perhaps both. Of course, I doubt that your 11-gigabuck industry is PS2 games, nor evey console games - and I would guess that assembly isn't in "every one" of either, though probably close to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Mar 26 05:23:21 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:23:21 GMT Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <01f401c531c2$700242e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <01f401c531c2$700242e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5cd2a8514d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <01f401c531c2$700242e0$6400a8c0 at HPLAPTOP> "Jay West" wrote: > It was written... > >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." > >> - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) > I do, darn near daily. Idiots. Same here. PIC assembler, not x86 assembler, but it's still assembler. Compilers really don't work very well on RISC microcontrollers (in my experience anyway). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Shoot your program and put it out of its memory! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 26 05:41:07 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:41:07 GMT Subject: Annex Terminal Servers... In-Reply-To: "Curt @ Atari Museum" "Annex Terminal Servers..." (Mar 26, 0:21) References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244F164.6030702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <10503261141.ZM7433@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 26 2005, 0:21, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone here familiar with Annex Terminal Servers I have one at work, where it was used mainly to provide dialup access, offering both telnet and PPP. I also have one at home, where it presently connects to a couple of terminals, a couple of SGI consoles, a PDP-8, and will eventually connect a few more consoles (when I make up the cables). It has reasonable security so my eventual aim is to have it accessible from the Internet, for much the same reason you want to hook up your Vax. I wouldn't connect it to the internet until you have set up the security. > I have one unit up and working like a charm on my vax system so I can > use my PC to control the console port over my LAN. The Annex Term > server is working fine on my local subnet, however for some reason it > will not talk across from a remote system on another subnet through my > firewall/router... You probably don't have all the configuration set up. I have the manuals, about 9" of shelf space, and the remote management software. You don't actually need that management software, but it does make life easier. My guess is that you don't have the gateway address (and/or subnet mask) correctly set. I assume you know to use the "su" command from the CLI to the superuser prompt, then the "admin" command to get to the admin mode, and "show annex all" (etc) to see the configuration? You need that to set the subnet mask (and many other things). You don't set a default gateway like that, though. The annex uses its routing table for that, and you can either set a static route using the "route" command or by putting the route(s) you want in the "gateways" section of the config file which it loads when it boots. You can display the routes using "netstat -r" and "netstat -C". After I compiled the software, I corrected a few of the manpages and wrote a few extra ones, which I'll send you by private email. In the meantime, here's a few useful URLs: http://www25.nortelnetworks.com/library/rannex/relnotes/R10.1A-Release_Notes.html http://www.ofb.net/~jheiss/annex/ http://lost-contact.mit.edu/afs/net.mit.edu/project/afs32/andrew/netdev/sun4_413/usr/var/spool/erpcd/bfs/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 26 06:13:00 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:13:00 +0100 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050326121300.GA15682@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 03:03:54PM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will > > again." - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley) > > On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > Wrong, and wrong. Where did they get that bizarre notion? > > The biggest reason why I don't think that I should retire yet - > I teach an assembly language class. > > > They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. > > They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > but recursion". If they claim any such bullshit then they obviously weren't paying attention during class. Any recursive algorithm can be implemented as an iterative solution. At worst by emulation of the recursion stack, but usually much better. Recursive algorithms are often more elegant and easier to implement. Unfortunately they tend to blow up the stack if one throws sufficiently large datasets at them. At which point one switches to a non-recursive implementation ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Mar 26 06:23:53 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:23:53 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:31:47 EST." <20050326013147.8F29273029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200503261223.j2QCNrWf014956@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > > I've found that compiling the Linux kernel to be an excellent test of a >system. > > -spc (And if GCC failed compiling the kernel, it was almost always a > sign of bad memory ... ) This is true, but I've had systems that rebuilt kernels all day long and still had bad memory. The true test for me is running an entire NetBSD build for a different architecture (say, "vax' :-) This is what kick up a bad memory problem for me. (I have to say, they NetBSD folks have done an amaxing thing - you can build for any architecture on any posix machine. a nice trick.) but don't worry, I run quasijarus on my vax :-) -brad From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Mar 26 06:20:26 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:20:26 +0100 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <4244A32C.8060205@oldskool.org> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111749690.3827.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <0c3f2e514d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <4244A32C.8060205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050326122026.GB15682@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 05:47:56PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >The only surefire RAM check is MemTest86 left for a few hours > >in "burn in" mode. > > You can't trust this 100%. Of course you can't. It only tests a limited set of patterns - those which are expected to be best for triggering faults - but it simply _cannot_ test all possible patterns. memtest86 is a positive only checking tool: it can only detect the presence of memory errors, but cannot prove their absence. Especially since there are some rather "interesting" failure modes for memory cells. > We had a problem with a SuperMicro board; > database kept getting scrambled occaisionally. Ran memtest86 on burn-in > mode for 24 hours -- never found a problem -- boot back into the OS and > bam, scrambled data again. When we replaced one of the memory sticks as a > last ditch effort, it fixed the problem. Usually compiling a very large software package under Linux is a good memory stress test for finding faults. Traditionally, one used the full Linux kernel compile run for that, but nowadays I would also add a full compile of OpenOffice to that. If any SISEGVs are being thrown during compile, then the memory is highly suspect. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Mar 26 06:36:28 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:36:28 -0500 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC References: Message-ID: <001a01c53200$6fb52b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Head load timing problem?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:49 PM Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC > > Ok, starting over here since there's been a long hiatus since the last > time I messed around with this. > > I'm experimenting with different 8" disks trying to figure out what's > going on. > > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > 5.25" drive. > > Second, the 8" drive can successfully format/read/write an 8" drive when I > have the BIOS configured for a 5.25" 1.2M drive. My drive is a Tandon TM > 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link to the manual they scanned, and now I > can't find that person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm so sorry!) > But at any rate, of the 3 measley links that come back from Google, I see > that this drive is DSDD. Still don't know if it can do FM however. > > I have some 8" disks in both CP/M and DOS 2.11 format from my NEC APC. > They both read fine on the NEC APC. > > I'm trying to read targeted sectors using debug. > > With the CP/M disk, I try to L 0 0 0 1 (Load at address 0, drive 0, sector > 0, 1 sector) and get: > > Not ready reading drive A > > Ok, so I try L 0 0 1 1 and after a longer pause get: > > General failure reading drive A > > Hmm, I'm still new to this, but this seems like a density issue. > > Tried on the DOS 2.11 disk and got the exact same errors on both read > attempts. > > I formatted an 8" disk under DOS, then tried L 0 0 0 1 from debug and > successfully load the sector into memory. > > What's interesting is if I try to read sector 0 from the NEC DOS disk and > get the "Not ready reading drive A (Abort, Retry, Fail)" error, then > immediately put in my known readable formatted DOS disk and hit R)etry, I > get the same error ("Not ready reading drive A"). If I abort and then > retry, it works fine. Or if I wait at the Abort, Retry, Fail prompt for a > little while then retry, it also works. > > Hmmm.... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Mar 26 07:17:06 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:17:06 -0500 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: <000601c531c2$88cab690$2d92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <000601c531c2$88cab690$2d92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <424560D2.4000406@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > You can try to format an 8" SSSD disk from the PC and copy files to it. > Make sure you are running a real DOS and not a shell from within > windoze. Make sure you are using 22disk version 1.42. Is v1.42 still available online anywhere? Can it still be registered? I'm pretty sure I only have v1.44 myself. Doc From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Mar 26 07:30:49 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:30:49 -0500 Subject: DEC Paper Tape On EBay In-Reply-To: <4244C95E.9020301@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <0IDY003GMO5CEI@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>Don't know if this is of interest or not: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=576309147 4&rd=1 >>I know eBay is not popular here, but I rarely see these boxes any more. >>Even regular oiled 1" tape is down to a few niche dealers. Overpriced. I picked up a CARTON (off eBay) a few months ago for little over double the (starting) price this person wants for one box. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Mar 26 07:31:53 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:31:53 -0500 Subject: Free, I'm scrapping tape drives In-Reply-To: <4244303D.4000703@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <0IDY001KMO745J@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >>I am getting rid of my 9 track tape drives. All drives are Cipher 880, >>890, or 990. None are SCSI. Where are you located???? From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Mar 26 08:10:13 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:10:13 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org> <33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424501A7.101@oldskool.org> <34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> At 12:38 AM 3/26/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after >the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines with >no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there be >anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? Sure. Sellam's and Tony's heads will be preserved in jars and still talking. I saw it on TV in a show about the future. - John From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Mar 26 08:38:59 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:38:59 -0500 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435CF3@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf at siconic.com] > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:49 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC > > 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link to the manual they > scanned, and now I > can't find that person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm > so sorry!) I've resent the service manual in PDF format. If anyone else wants it, let me know. It is VERY large, and I'm sure some will gripe that I didn't OCR it, or scan at lower resolution, or etc, etc, ... My response - scan it yourself then... For me: storage is cheap, bandwidth is cheap, time is what I don't have enough of. Kelly From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Mar 26 08:41:57 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:41:57 -0500 Subject: Annex Terminal Servers... In-Reply-To: <10503261141.ZM7433@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244F164.6030702@atarimuseum.com> <10503261141.ZM7433@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <424574B5.1000105@atarimuseum.com> Hi Pete, Right on the money! I didn't set the gateway address, that was why it was receiving packets and not responding back, its working perfectly now, I VNC'd to one of my outside boxes, open a telnet session to the IP and viola! I got the cli prompt and accessed the port the Vax is on and it responded. Curt Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Mar 26 2005, 0:21, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >>Anyone here familiar with Annex Terminal Servers >> >> > >I have one at work, where it was used mainly to provide dialup access, >offering both telnet and PPP. I also have one at home, where it >presently connects to a couple of terminals, a couple of SGI consoles, >a PDP-8, and will eventually connect a few more consoles (when I make >up the cables). It has reasonable security so my eventual aim is to >have it accessible from the Internet, for much the same reason you want >to hook up your Vax. I wouldn't connect it to the internet until you >have set up the security. > > > >>I have one unit up and working like a charm on my vax system so I can >>use my PC to control the console port over my LAN. The Annex Term >>server is working fine on my local subnet, however for some reason it >>will not talk across from a remote system on another subnet through >> >> >my > > >>firewall/router... >> >> > >You probably don't have all the configuration set up. I have the >manuals, about 9" of shelf space, and the remote management software. > You don't actually need that management software, but it does make >life easier. > >My guess is that you don't have the gateway address (and/or subnet >mask) correctly set. I assume you know to use the "su" command from >the CLI to the superuser prompt, then the "admin" command to get to the >admin mode, and "show annex all" (etc) to see the configuration? You >need that to set the subnet mask (and many other things). > >You don't set a default gateway like that, though. The annex uses its >routing table for that, and you can either set a static route using the >"route" command or by putting the route(s) you want in the "gateways" >section of the config file which it loads when it boots. You can >display the routes using "netstat -r" and "netstat -C". > >After I compiled the software, I corrected a few of the manpages and >wrote a few extra ones, which I'll send you by private email. In the >meantime, here's a few useful URLs: > >http://www25.nortelnetworks.com/library/rannex/relnotes/R10.1A-Release_Notes.html > >http://www.ofb.net/~jheiss/annex/ > >http://lost-contact.mit.edu/afs/net.mit.edu/project/afs32/andrew/netdev/sun4_413/usr/var/spool/erpcd/bfs/ > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.3 - Release Date: 3/25/2005 From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Mar 26 08:43:34 2005 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:43:34 -0600 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org><33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74><424501A7.101@oldskool.org><34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> Message-ID: <002801c53212$303f1d90$6401a8c0@barton> It's not entirely out of the question, after all, how many of you have the knowledge of metalurgy to make any metal tool from say... the Bronze age, or Iron, or make gun powder, sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain the raw materials, and build the contraption that they used to make it? My point is, the more complicated any system gets, the root origins of it's discovery become lost relying upon others to specialize and obtain it for you. We are a special case, we have seen it's origins and were present for the begining of the Bronze age equivilant of computers, the next generation won't even know what assembly is, they've been taught it's all binary. That's how they would start if all came to an end and then machine language would have to be reborn again, and would be, but at the cost of "re-inventing the wheel" ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 8:10 AM Subject: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated..... > At 12:38 AM 3/26/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >>I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after >>the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines with >>no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there be >>anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? > > Sure. Sellam's and Tony's heads will be preserved in jars > and still talking. I saw it on TV in a show about the future. > > - John > From dmabry at mich.com Sat Mar 26 08:47:42 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:42 -0500 Subject: SIG/M diskettes Message-ID: <4245760E.50108@mich.com> I just received some 8" diskettes that I "won" on e-pay. I was only buying used SSSD diskettes, but when they arrived they contained files. They are SIG/M #81 through #120 and #161 through #176. My question is this. Are these files already archived and preserved for the "community" or should I spend some time (lots of time, actually) and get the files to a CD or something similar so those of us who are interested in CP/M history have them? I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to spend this time if it is already done. Thanks, Dave Mabry Intel MDS tinkerer From rcini at optonline.net Sat Mar 26 09:31:26 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:31:26 -0500 Subject: SIG/M diskettes In-Reply-To: <4245760E.50108@mich.com> Message-ID: <003101c53218$e09cbf20$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Some SIG/M files are contained on the Walnut Creek CDROM on retroarchive.com but I never looked closely enough at them to see if theirs is a complete set. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave Mabry Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 9:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SIG/M diskettes I just received some 8" diskettes that I "won" on e-pay. I was only buying used SSSD diskettes, but when they arrived they contained files. They are SIG/M #81 through #120 and #161 through #176. My question is this. Are these files already archived and preserved for the "community" or should I spend some time (lots of time, actually) and get the files to a CD or something similar so those of us who are interested in CP/M history have them? I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to spend this time if it is already done. Thanks, Dave Mabry Intel MDS tinkerer From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Mar 26 09:20:43 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:20:43 GMT Subject: Annex Terminal Servers... In-Reply-To: "Curt @ Atari Museum" "Re: Annex Terminal Servers..." (Mar 26, 9:41) References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244F164.6030702@atarimuseum.com> <10503261141.ZM7433@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <424574B5.1000105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <10503261520.ZM7849@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 26 2005, 9:41, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Right on the money! I didn't set the gateway address, that was why > it was receiving packets and not responding back, its working perfectly > now, I VNC'd to one of my outside boxes, open a telnet session to the IP > and viola! I got the cli prompt and accessed the port the Vax is on > and it responded. Well done :-) I must admit that it takes a while to get one's head around all the annex config stuff, and figure out what gets set where. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 26 09:46:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:46:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: <001a01c53200$6fb52b20$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > Head load timing problem?? Interesting, I switched to using an MPI Model 42 drive that I previously set aside and it is exhibiting the same results as the Tandon drive. The only difference was that it would not automatically engage the heads, so I would push down on the head level manually :) Anyway, some nice people (thanks Randy and Kelly!) sent me some good stuff and I've had a good round of sleep, so I'll tackle it again later this morning. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Sat Mar 26 10:43:32 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:43:32 +0100 Subject: SIG/M diskettes References: <4245760E.50108@mich.com> Message-ID: <001701c53222$f4d517d0$1502a8c0@ACER> Spend the time with no doubt. The collection don't appears to be complete, at least in the Internet. I downloaded a good lot in the past but I remember clearly that some of them aren't available. Oh, send a note when you could obtain something, please. I continue the search :-) Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mabry" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: SIG/M diskettes > I just received some 8" diskettes that I "won" on e-pay. I was only > buying used SSSD diskettes, but when they arrived they contained files. > They are SIG/M #81 through #120 and #161 through #176. > > My question is this. Are these files already archived and preserved for > the "community" or should I spend some time (lots of time, actually) and > get the files to a CD or something similar so those of us who are > interested in CP/M history have them? > > I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to spend this time if it is > already done. > > Thanks, > Dave Mabry > Intel MDS tinkerer > > From rimmer at xs4all.nl Fri Mar 25 11:44:20 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:44:20 +0100 Subject: Wanted : Manual for Philips 350 Series Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050325184328.03efdf38@pop.xs4all.nl> I am looking for a manual for the Philips 350 series for someone. If anyone has one or a copy or pdf etc, please let me know. Thanks! Stefan. From bv at norbionics.com Fri Mar 25 11:43:18 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:43:18 +0100 Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <1111750431.3842.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:33:51 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 23:48 -0500, David V. Corbin wrote: >> ... > > So what's the slowest classic machine to boot (to the point where a user > can start using the machine, say)? Modern paranoia checks for correct > PSU voltages etc. don't count! :-) I mean time as it would have taken > when the machine was new, including time to physically load any tapes > etc. (and standard period checks are of course OK) > Most old computers I used had power-on sequencing and testing of some kind, but it never amounted to a significant part of startup time. Typically less than half a minute, I'd say. The boot time was highly dependent on how much stuff they had to get loaded before the system was useable. Our HP-3000 would get drives ready, journals checked, MPE and databases loaded and terminals ready to use in about 20 minutes. The 260/50, on the other hand, would need some 45 minutes for a full IPL. That was until IMS and TSO/ISPF was available for us poor users. -- -bv From dwhit at dwhittaker.com Fri Mar 25 11:29:09 2005 From: dwhit at dwhittaker.com (dwhit) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:29:09 -0700 Subject: MicroVax? Message-ID: <001801c53160$27b14e80$088e4044@nunuav9kgtf9t5> Anyone able to tell me what the best source for a ?po boy? to find a MicroVax? Thanks -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.2 - Release Date: 3/25/2005 From korpela at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 13:15:21 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:15:21 -0800 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:55:02 -0500, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > Just last week in one of my occasional searches for a video solution, I > found this RGB-to-VGA adapter product: > http://www.magenta-research.com/products/products/product_set3/VideoAdapters.html > Hmmm, yeah. Just right! > > So, I inquired about the price. They emailed back $695.00 (gulp!!!) Take > a look at that little thing! $695?? What's the horizontal scan rate? Is it sync on green (RGsB), separate composite sync, or separate sync? If the horizontal rate is above 30 kHz, it's probably going to work OK with a VGA monitor. All you need to do is get the sync separated. A small circuit board with an LM1881, an 74LS00 and a few resistors and capacitors should to the job. I recently built a sync combiner separater for a bunch of 15 kHz horizontal machines that are video switched. Some have composite sync, some have separate. I can send the schematic if anyone is interested. If they have scan rates below 30kHz you'll need a scan doubler. For 15 kHz Horz, 60Hz vert machines you can get a board from Atlas Amusements that will do the job. (They call it their CGA to VGA converter, but it's really an analog 15kHz RGB to VGA converter. The price is about $100. They sell it for installation in arcade video games.) Eric From korpela at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 13:19:52 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:19:52 -0800 Subject: Good description of Apple ][ disk controller In-Reply-To: <40028.64.139.41.130.1111693028.squirrel@64.139.41.130> References: <41033.64.139.41.130.1111440817.squirrel@64.139.41.130> <32898.64.169.63.74.1111517006.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <40028.64.139.41.130.1111693028.squirrel@64.139.41.130> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:37:08 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Eric wrote: > > Either that or they read the patent application.... In the patent, > > Woz describes the (13 sector) nybble format as being interleaved data > > and clock bits, with the clock bits all set to 1. > > The patent does not describe the 13-sector format at all!!! It only > describes an 11-sector non-GCR format that was never used by any software > Apple actually publicly released. That's what I get for relying on memory. My bad. Eric From adamg at pobox.com Fri Mar 25 21:46:51 2005 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:46:51 -0500 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? Message-ID: <20050326034651.GA23973@silme.pair.com> Many SVGA monitors are happy to take a sync-on-green signal as long as the sync frequencies are in range. Check your monitor docs, or try it. -- Adam From bv at norbionics.com Sat Mar 26 06:49:53 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:49:53 +0100 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IDW00FCU5AGTK@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> <10503251027.ZM5333@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20050325135945.M19127@shell.lmi.net> <16964.37574.103000.463040@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050325145625.X19127@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:03:54 +0100, Fred Cisin wrote: ... > > They're LISP (actually "SCHEME") fanatics. > > They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > but recursion". While they were keying it in in Scheme, I wrote > out a non-recursive solution (with a 2D array) in C, BASIC, FORTRAN, > and I got halfway through writing the COBOL form. > I once programmed quicksort in RPG-II (because we did not have an assembler for the System 3, IBM wanted lots of money for it. -- -bv From allain at panix.com Sat Mar 26 11:30:53 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:30:53 -0500 Subject: MicroVax? References: <001801c53160$27b14e80$088e4044@nunuav9kgtf9t5> Message-ID: <020301c53229$9081c9c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Anyone able to tell me what the best source > for a ?po boy? to find a MicroVax? Right now it looks like Tim Shoppa. Since shipping is a great cost factor it might help to mention Approximately where you live. Also I might have one. John A. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Mar 26 11:50:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:50:21 -0600 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? Message-ID: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> Has anyone ever wired up a reset button/switch for their IBM PCs? I find myself powering down-then-up my 5150 three times a day when all it needs is a hard reset to reboot a hung machine. I've searched the web and usenet archives for such a design or specs but haven't found anything. If I could soldier a few wires to a pushbutton, I feel like I would less harsh to the machine... Or, does it not really matter? Is it not a big deal to power down, then power up (after 5 second delay) a 5150 or 5160? I know IBM PCs were built well, but I am unwilling to find out *how* well :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Mar 26 12:10:07 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:10:07 EST Subject: RGB on VGA monitor Message-ID: If you have a decent monitor, the sync on green should not be an issue. Older Macs and many workstations (SGI, all 3w3) run sync-on-green. If you do a search on "connecting PC monitors to SGIs" or similar it should tell you known monitors that work SOG. In any case, it's probably much cheaper to find a used monitor that supports SOG than to buy a box. Sony's monitors are a good bet (have 2, one OEMed by Radius, one by IBM, both work Sync-On-Green. -Scott Quinn From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Mar 26 12:21:11 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:21:11 -0800 Subject: SIG/M diskettes In-Reply-To: <4245760E.50108@mich.com> (Dave Mabry's message of "Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:42 -0500") References: <4245760E.50108@mich.com> Message-ID: <200503261821.j2QILBBU064134@lots.reanimators.org> Dave Mabry wrote: > I just received some 8" diskettes that I "won" on e-pay. I was only > buying used SSSD diskettes, but when they arrived they contained > files. They are SIG/M #81 through #120 and #161 through #176. Directories for those volumes do exist on the Walnut Creek CD/ROM, and they do contain files. If you don't have a copy of the CD-ROM handy, you could check this out via . -Frank McConnell From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:54:27 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:54:27 +0000 Subject: RGB on VGA monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6405032610546b7e3511@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:10:07 EST, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > If you have a decent monitor, the sync on green should not be an issue. Older > Macs and many workstations (SGI, all 3w3) run sync-on-green. If you do a > search on "connecting PC monitors to SGIs" > or similar it should tell you known monitors that work SOG. In any case, it's > probably much cheaper to find a used monitor that supports SOG than to buy a > box. Sony's monitors are a good bet (have 2, one OEMed by Radius, one by IBM, > both work Sync-On-Green. > > -Scott Quinn > The Playstation FAQ has a great list of monitors that do sync-on-green. I know it's OT but apparantly linux for the Playstation will only install on one. It's a good reference though. http://playstation2-linux.com/sog.php Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Mar 26 13:54:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:54:16 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... Message-ID: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> We've got a Sun 4/330 which has bit 6 stuck high in every character output on the console. I don't suppose anyone has schematics for these boards or know how the serial hardware works, do they? The machine looks to be booting OK, so it appears address & data buses are fine - but at the point where characters must be loaded into a parallel register and converted to serial for output it's falling over... I suspect the machine's hard-wired to use only serial port A as console, but either way I couldn't get hold of the right cable to see if the other three serial ports are OK (the latter three being 9-pin male, whilst port A is 25 pin male) I can't think of any line settings, faulty voltage rails etc. that'd cause bit 6 to be stuck high, so I'm assuming it's a hardware fault... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 26 14:04:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:04:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050326114958.Q34522@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > First, the basics: I know my controller can handle FM because I was able > to successfully copy all the files off an old 160K PC disk in my 1.2M > 5.25" drive. Sorry, but 160K MS-DOS diskettes are NOT FM. They are MFM with a 250K data transfer rate at 300 RPM, or a 300K data transfer rate at 360 RPM. > Second, the 8" drive can successfully format/read/write an 8" drive when I > have the BIOS configured for a 5.25" 1.2M drive. My drive is a Tandon TM > 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link to the manual they scanned, and now I > can't find that person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm so sorry!) > But at any rate, of the 3 measley links that come back from Google, I see > that this drive is DSDD. Still don't know if it can do FM however. The 848 CAN do FM. Whether or not your disk controller can remains to be seen. BUT,... I don't remember whether the 848 can read "normal" 8" single sided. Look at the index hole position of a SS and a DS 8" diskette. Does the 848 have one, or two, index sensors? 'course if the diskettes that you formatted as 1.2M are the same type of diskettes, then that has already been confirmed. > I have some 8" disks in both CP/M and DOS 2.11 format from my NEC APC. > They both read fine on the NEC APC. APC CP/M diskettes could be SSSD, OR DSDD. The MS-DOS 2.11 from the APC should be DSDD. > I'm trying to read targeted sectors using debug. > With the CP/M disk, I try to L 0 0 0 1 (Load at address 0, drive 0, sector > 0, 1 sector) and get: > Not ready reading drive A > Ok, so I try L 0 0 1 1 and after a longer pause get: > General failure reading drive A > Hmm, I'm still new to this, but this seems like a density issue. "General Failure" (wasn't he in 'Nam?) does usually mean a density issue. It is usually caused by an error #2 (address mark not found) from the BIOS, although it literally means "none of the above" - an error occurred that was not in the list of errors that DOS understands. BUT,... DEBUG's L... command is really only for reading MS-DOS diskettes; it will attempt to determine WHICH MS-DOS format it is looking at first, and will give incorrect error messages for anything else, although it will SOMETIMES correctly say "Probable Non-DOS diskette". "General Failure" is usually density, recording method, or blank disk. "Sector Not Found" means right density and MFM, but the expected sector number isn't there. "Not Ready" USUALLY means it didn't see enough index pulses. Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 26 14:06:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:06:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050326120543.N34522@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Update: > When I now try to load any sector from debug I am getting a sector not > found error. It's seeing sectors! Prob'ly different sector numbering, OR different size sectors -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 26 14:11:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:11:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050326120738.O34522@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Are you sure about this? I thought the only difference between 160K > disks and 180K disks was 8 sectors per track vs 9 sectors per track. > I don't remember an FM/MFM difference (but I could easily be wrong). Only thing that you are wrong about, is thinking that you might be wrong. > Also, if you are doing this with an older motherboard (no onboard > floppy controller in particular), it might be easier to be sure > exactly what FDC you are using. The "real" IBM FDC, and most others with a 765 chip, are hard wired for MFM, and needs some [minor] modifications to be able to do FM. Look for a 37C65 chip. > All I can suggest is to focus more on your choice of FDC and > application software and less on the floppy mechanism itself. If you suspect DRIVE problems, you could try hanging the drive on the NEC, and see if it works there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fernande at internet1.net Sat Mar 26 14:30:26 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:30:26 -0500 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? In-Reply-To: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> References: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4245C662.7050409@internet1.net> Jim, I've never done it, but remembered reading about it. I've looked up the procedure in Upgrading and Repairing PC's by Mueller. Find the 8284a (82284 in the AT) timer chip in the PC. When pin 11 is shorted to ground momentarily it will start the reset process. Also shorting the "power good" line from the power supply will do the same thing. The power good pin is supposed to be P8-1. Whether it's a warm reset or a cold reset depends on the memory contents of a certain memory location. Doing a Cntrl-Alt-del sets it up for warm resets from there on out. If you work with early PC's, Muellers book should be on your list of books to buy. I actually have 2, but different revisions, since the contents are a bit different in each. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jim Leonard wrote: > Has anyone ever wired up a reset button/switch for their IBM PCs? I > find myself powering down-then-up my 5150 three times a day when all it > needs is a hard reset to reboot a hung machine. I've searched the web > and usenet archives for such a design or specs but haven't found > anything. If I could soldier a few wires to a pushbutton, I feel like I > would less harsh to the machine... > > Or, does it not really matter? Is it not a big deal to power down, then > power up (after 5 second delay) a 5150 or 5160? I know IBM PCs were > built well, but I am unwilling to find out *how* well :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 26 14:45:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? In-Reply-To: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> References: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050326123532.I34522@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Has anyone ever wired up a reset button/switch for their IBM PCs? I find > myself powering down-then-up my 5150 three times a day when all it needs is a > hard reset to reboot a hung machine. I've searched the web and usenet archives > for such a design or specs but haven't found anything. If I could soldier a > few wires to a pushbutton, I feel like I would less harsh to the machine... > Or, does it not really matter? Is it not a big deal to power down, then power > up (after 5 second delay) a 5150 or 5160? I know IBM PCs were built well, but > I am unwilling to find out *how* well :) Sure You'll also need to load a tiny bit of code into memory. If you short the two pins of the ISA bus (one on each side) that are closest to the bracket, you will generate a non-maskable interrupt. The IBM 5150 Floppy disk controller has room on the bracket for a small button (or jack for a button on a cable), and has convenient plate through holes for the correct pins. By installing your own TSR nmi handler, you can use a push button to force a jump to code that you leave in memory. There used to be a free-ware package called NMIEXIT that would let you stuff any .COM file into memory and be able to force a jump to it, such as a warm boot, cold boot, DEBUG.COM, etc. (REAL .COM file, NOT a .EXE that has been RENAMED into a .COM such as newest DOS .COMs) Brett Salter (Periscope) made some real nice hardware debuggers using that technique, with debounce of the button, write protectable RAM, etc. If you can't find NMIEXIT, remind me on Monday or Wednesday. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Mar 26 14:54:39 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:54:39 -0500 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? Message-ID: <20050326205439.LFJB11674.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Find the 8284a (82284 in the AT) timer chip in the PC. When pin 11 is >shorted to ground momentarily it will start the reset process. Also >shorting the "power good" line from the power supply will do the same >thing. The power good pin is supposed to be P8-1. I recall at one time having an original IBM PC/AT with a reset switch wired to ground the "power good" line. It worked fine, and was still working when I got rid of it ... I don't know if all power supplies would tolerate this - might be a good idea to put a small resistor in series with the PS output so that you are not shorting it directly. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Mar 26 14:59:57 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:59:57 -0600 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC References: <000601c531c2$88cab690$2d92d6d1@randylaptop> <424560D2.4000406@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000801c53246$c88ab440$133cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 7:17 AM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> You can try to format an 8" SSSD disk from the PC and copy files to it. >> Make sure you are running a real DOS and not a shell from within >> windoze. Make sure you are using 22disk version 1.42. > > Is v1.42 still available online anywhere? Can it still be registered? > > I'm pretty sure I only have v1.44 myself. > > > Doc http://www.gaby.de/edownl.htm Randy www.s100-manuals.com From fernande at internet1.net Sat Mar 26 14:56:36 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:56:36 -0500 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? In-Reply-To: <20050326205439.LFJB11674.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050326205439.LFJB11674.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4245CC84.5080707@internet1.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Find the 8284a (82284 in the AT) timer chip in the PC. When pin 11 is >>shorted to ground momentarily it will start the reset process. Also >>shorting the "power good" line from the power supply will do the same >>thing. The power good pin is supposed to be P8-1. > > > I recall at one time having an original IBM PC/AT with a reset switch > wired to ground the "power good" line. It worked fine, and was still > working when I got rid of it ... I don't know if all power supplies > would tolerate this - might be a good idea to put a small resistor in > series with the PS output so that you are not shorting it directly. > > Regards, Oh Yeah, Muellers book did suggest a small resisiter.... 1/4 watt between 1K ohms and 2.7K ohms. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From wayne.smith at charter.net Sat Mar 26 15:25:37 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:25:37 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 19, Issue 92 In-Reply-To: <200503260523.j2Q5NLhv069311@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002e01c5324a$5f229dc0$6501a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:49:01 -0800 (PST) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > My drive is a Tandon TM 848-02. Someone e-mailed me a link > to the manual they scanned, and now I can't find that > person's e-mail nor remember who it was (I'm so sorry!) But > at any rate, of the 3 measley links that come back from > Google, I see that this drive is DSDD. Still don't know if > it can do FM however. Not sure it this is what you're looking for, but here is the service manual for the TM 848-2 - perhaps this is the same as the "02": http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tandon/TM848_service_1982.pdf From spc at conman.org Sat Mar 26 15:53:54 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:53:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050326121300.GA15682@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Mar 26, 2005 01:13:00 PM Message-ID: <20050326215354.6839F73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Alexander Schreiber once stated: > > > They demo'd an example that "can not possibly be solved in ANY way > > but recursion". > > If they claim any such bullshit then they obviously weren't paying > attention during class. Any recursive algorithm can be implemented > as an iterative solution. At worst by emulation of the recursion > stack, but usually much better. Recursive algorithms are often more > elegant and easier to implement. Unfortunately they tend to blow up the > stack if one throws sufficiently large datasets at them. At which point > one switches to a non-recursive implementation ;-) Scheme is required to recognize tail recursion (where the last thing the function does is call itself) and convert it into a loop. I personally felt that recursion was always oversold and that there were very *few* occasions where it was needed (but where it was needed, it was very elegant). I felt that way mainly because of the examples used to teach recursion---they were always the Fibonacci sequence or some other trivial example that would work just as well with loops. A much better example (I felt) was expression parsing: := '+' := '*' := | '(' ')' := '0' ... '9' But sadly, that was only taught during compilers class. -spc (The example above could be done in a loop ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 26 15:55:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:55:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slow boot times (Was: Re: Totally OT, but frustrated.....) In-Reply-To: <20050325185133.N1175@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 25, 5 06:53:14 pm Message-ID: > APparently to book EDSAC involved climbing a flight of stairs. The version I heard (from MVW himself, no less) was that you had to climb stairs between the room where you punched the tape and the room where EDSAC itself was (and therefore where you took the tape to read it in). After going up and down stairs a few times, he invented the idea of an interactive debugger. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 26 15:57:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:57:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 25, 5 07:06:40 pm Message-ID: > That's because youre a real programmer and understand what a > computer is. None of our (actually very smart and some even > experienced) grad students actually know what a computer is. I > don't think hardly anyone does. OK (and this came up in some private e-mail when discussing the major off-topic threads here). What is a computer? Becasue I certainly don't have an exact definition. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 26 16:06:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:06:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 26, 5 08:10:13 am Message-ID: > > At 12:38 AM 3/26/2005, Eric Smith wrote: > >I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after > >the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines with > >no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there be > >anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? > > Sure. Sellam's and Tony's heads will be preserved in jars > and still talking. I saw it on TV in a show about the future. I'm not sure what use my head would be without arms/hands to type in replies and/or discover new ways of maintaining these machines.... :-) However, this does remind me of a fairly important point. Many of us have discovered useful tricks, have sketched out otherwise unobtainable schematics, and so on. It would be a great pity if all this was lost in the event of said person passing away. Most of us (I hope) have made formal or informal arrangements as to what happens to our collection should this happen. But have you made arrangements to preserve your hacks too? I would suggest recording everything as far as possible -- and labelling it with whatever machine it goes with. And making it be known that in the event of your death, every bit of paper should be examined by a clueful hacker. And yes, I have done the latter (in the event of my death, my entire collection goes to a trusted friend who knows to check every last bit of paper for useful clues as to what I was doing. Anyone likely to be informed of my death knows to contact this person should it be necessary. And he knows to contact my other friends should he need more help).... -tony From nerdware at ctgonline.org Sat Mar 26 17:36:11 2005 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:36:11 -0600 Subject: Free to a good home - Apple NetTalk connector kit Message-ID: <42459D8B.4041.D9ED5C@localhost> Still in the box. Contains the connector, cable, and barrell connector. It's small and light -- postage will probably be under $2. Let me know, or it gets tossed. Thanks. Paul Braun nerdware at laidbak.com Visit NerdWare on the Web at www.laidbak.com/nerdware From acme at gbronline.com Sat Mar 26 17:57:02 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:57:02 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4245F6CE.3000505@gbronline.com> Once upon a time Joe Rigdon gave me an 820-II and Don Maslin sent me an 8" CP/M disk set for it. When I ran out of time and space I gave the machine -- and as far as I can remember, the disks -- back to Joe. Hey Joe, still got those disks? Glen 0/0 Andrew Erlanger wrote: > Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone > has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. > > Thanks, Andy Erlanger > > > From river at zip.com.au Sat Mar 26 18:26:02 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:26:02 +1000 Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! Message-ID: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> Hi, I've got a few old SC/MP-II chips and I decided to try and do something with them. It appears that only 2 of the chips actually work, but I've just proto-typed a small system with 4K ROM, 4K RAM, an 8251 USART and an 8255 PPI. I got the comms going yesterday and the PPI is fine. Excellent old vintage stuff. I forgot how cumbersome the SC/MP instruction set was, but it's fun trying to code around its deficiencies. I've got a listing of the original KITBUG for the SC/MP, but I'm going to expand on it to provide more functionality. I'll try and base the monitor off the old Intel 8080 SBC monitor. When she's all done then I'll wire-wrap it onto a single board and put it in a nice display box. I like these things to work, as opposed to collecting chips to sit and gather dust. This brings me to a question. Does anyone know any chip brokers that sell a small number of chips to hobbyists? I've tried a few but they seem uninterested in selling small numbers and to private buyers. I don't understand this 'cos I doubt there will be orders for thousands of old chips like the SC/MP from businesses - and rather then sit and collect dust at least the brokers could sell some of their stock to private buyers. river From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Mar 26 18:58:41 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:58:41 -0800 Subject: Starting over with 8" drive on PC In-Reply-To: <20050326114958.Q34522@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050326114958.Q34522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050326165738.03a655a0@mail.zipcon.net> At 12:04 PM 3/26/2005, you wrote: >BUT,... >I don't remember whether the 848 can read "normal" 8" single sided. >Look at the index hole position of a SS and a DS 8" diskette. >Does the 848 have one, or two, index sensors? >'course if the diskettes that you formatted as 1.2M are the >same type of diskettes, then that has already been confirmed. Tandon TM848-02's can read both 8" single and 8" double sided, that is the drive that Tandy put into their model 12, 16 and 6000's (used to have one of each) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Mar 26 19:46:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:46:42 -0500 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> Message-ID: <20050326204642.46910e70.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:57:16 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > That's because youre a real programmer and understand what a > > computer is. None of our (actually very smart and some even > > experienced) grad students actually know what a computer is. I > > don't think hardly anyone does. > > OK (and this came up in some private e-mail when discussing the major > off-topic threads here). What is a computer? Becasue I certainly don't > > have an exact definition. > > -tony > I thought a computer was a man, or woman, who specialized in computing sums and other mathematical calculations. At least that's what my 1920 Funk & Wagnells says. Being more on-topic, there is a lot of historical Data Processing equipment out there that can not be considered 'a computer.' IBM had a thriving business in punched card equipment decades before the first stored-instruction digital computer. Is a 68HC11 microprocessor a 'computer' if I use it in multi-chip mode, with some sort of serial terminal arrangement that allows user input and programmability, but NOT a computer if I use it in single-chip mode and the on-chip serial port is just used to read logged values from the on-chip A/D? -Scott From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 26 21:57:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:57:30 -0700 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42462F2A.3040502@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >... would suggest recording everything as far as possible -- and labelling >it with whatever machine it goes with. And making it be known that in the >event of your death, every bit of paper should be examined by a clueful >hacker. And yes, I have done the latter (in the event of my death, my >entire collection goes to a trusted friend who knows to check every last >bit of paper for useful clues as to what I was doing. Anyone likely to be >informed of my death knows to contact this person should it be necessary. >And he knows to contact my other friends should he need more help).... > > > And always use a scratch monkey before testing any neural implants. :) >-tony > > From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Mar 26 23:36:36 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:36:36 -0500 Subject: Definition of a Computer (was: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >OK (and this came up in some private e-mail when discussing the major >off-topic threads here). What is a computer? Becasue I certainly don't >have an exact definition. I always heard it defined (and seemed the most logical/sensible to me) as: "A computer is a device which can perform arithmetic _and_ logical functions without the aid of a human." Several of my earlier computing textbooks put it in this manner, explained why it was so (see below) and it's always worked for me. That said, a 4-function calculator was not a computer (if that's all the underlying hardware could handle[1]), but just about any programmable calculator was, if it had any type of control looping abilities, as that's the "logical function" aspect of the definition. This was further broken down to two types of computers: general purpose computers and special purpose computers. General purpose computers are those that can be reprogrammed for different tasks by the end user; special purpose computers are those that serve only one purpose (or set of purposes) and cannot be changed without major modifications to the device. (Think high-end thermometer computer or databank-type digital watch...) That's the way I see it, but as my father-in-law used to say, "I may just be full of condensed milk." Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] If the hardware itself could perform logical functions, but was programmed in such a way that the "end user device" for lack of a better term could not, then it was still considered a computer, but a "special purpose computer" as mentioned above. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 00:37:45 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:37:45 +0800 Subject: DT1712-32DI-PG Unibus In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Anyone have the docs on this DT1712-32DI-PG (Unibus) module by Data Translation? Apparently it's either a AD or DA or both, and it's supposed to be DEC compatible, but as to which DEC module it's compatible with...? /wai-sun From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 27 00:38:13 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:38:13 -0800 Subject: SIG/M diskettes Message-ID: <424654D5.A7FDD660@rain.org> I just took a look at the SIMTEL arechives on the Walnut Creek CP/M disk, and they appear to have all the disks (judging by the directors) up through volume 310. Take a look at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/sigm.txt if you want to see what has already been saved from the SIG/M archives. For some reason, I can't ftp the sigm.txt file and the amount that gets transferred before it chokes varies each time I do it. The txt file there currently has most of the listings but is missing some stuff at the end. But in any case, it appears that what you have has already been saved. If you do take a look at the list, note that there *are* some typos in the list. > I just received some 8" diskettes that I "won" on e-pay. I was only > buying used SSSD diskettes, but when they arrived they contained files. > They are SIG/M #81 through #120 and #161 through #176. > > My question is this. Are these files already archived and preserved for > the "community" or should I spend some time (lots of time, actually) and > get the files to a CD or something similar so those of us who are > interested in CP/M history have them? > > I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to spend this time if it is > already done. > > Thanks, > Dave Mabry > Intel MDS tinkerer > From bmachacek at pcisys.net Sun Mar 27 01:30:31 2005 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:30:31 -0700 Subject: Vacuum Tubes Message-ID: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> Just thought I'd let the listees know that while visiting my local parts and equipment store today (which carries a large amount of discontinued and surplus items of all types), I noticed there was a whole aisle of electronic vacuum tubes there. Guess it's been there for quite a while, I just hadn't noticed it before. I looked at several of the tubes and saw that the addresses listed on the boxes contained no ZIP codes, so I figure that a good part if not all of these tubes are vintage items from back in the '50s or '60s. I have no idea what prices they have on these items as most of the stuff is unmarked, but I know from buying other items there, their prices are usually pretty reasonable. If anyone has any needs of vintage vacuum tubes, contact me off list and I be glad to check on them for you. I saw RCA, GE, and Sylvania there to mention a few and I believe most were for TVs and Radios, but who knows what else I may find there. I'm not an electronics person so I don't know what distinguishes one tube type from another. Let me know if I can be of help to anyone out there. Bill bmachacek at pcisys.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Mar 27 02:17:24 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:17:24 +0100 Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:26:02 +1000." <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> Message-ID: <200503270817.JAA26461@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, river said: > Hi, > > I've got a few old SC/MP-II chips and I decided to try and do something with them. > > It appears that only 2 of the chips actually work, but I've just proto-typed a small > system with 4K ROM, 4K RAM, an 8251 USART and an 8255 PPI. I got the > comms going yesterday and the PPI is fine. Excellent old vintage stuff. Excellent! I've a soft spot for the old SC/MP, and I still have my old Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) Mk14, which still works. Before that I had a home-brew system based on a board produced by a local firm here. This was about 1976/7 > > I forgot how cumbersome the SC/MP instruction set was, but it's fun trying > to > code around its deficiencies. I've got a listing of the original KITBUG for > the > SC/MP, but I'm going to expand on it to provide more functionality. I'll > try and > base the monitor off the old Intel 8080 SBC monitor. > The instruction set has an elegant simplicity :-) It makes position independent code easy though, and I wrote an operating system for the Mk14 that allowed me to load numbered programs from tape, with auto-run if required, multiple resident programs (in 1K ram!), and would recover the memory vacated by deleted programs. Good fun... I did start to write an emulator, the basics of which I prototyped and it works, but other projects got in the way. Not sure where the code is now. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 03:14:02 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:14:02 -0500 Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! In-Reply-To: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> References: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:26:02 +1000, river wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a few old SC/MP-II chips and I decided to try and do something with them. > > It appears that only 2 of the chips actually work, but I've just proto-typed a small > system with 4K ROM, 4K RAM, an 8251 USART and an 8255 PPI. I got the > comms going yesterday and the PPI is fine. Excellent old vintage stuff. Nice... I don't have any SC/MP chips, but I do have some INS8073s, which should be an SC/MP chip, but with Tiny Basic in ROM. I have a 3"x5" vintage SBC with one, and a few loose chips. My board is an MC-1N, for which I did eventually track down a copy of the manual last year from the original vendor. I have permission to distribute it from the copyright holder, even! Unfortunately, the MC-1N seems to be an obscure board... the rev I have is unusual now (there were later versions of the board with the same sort of I/O, but with a different microprocessor). For the record, the MC-1N has a 2K SRAM (6116), a clock/calendar chip, a ROM socket, and an 8255 with all 3 ports brought out the front. It's a nice little system that is just enough over minimal to be kinda fun. Unfortuately, the 74S188 memory decode PROM doesn't allow for more than 4 banks of 2K of SRAM. I _think_ a 16V8 GAL will work there, if I lift the pullups (the 74S188 is O.C.) I don't have any blank 74S188s, or I'd just blow one with a truth table that decodes the max amount of RAM on a single select so it'd be trivial to use a 62256 (32K x 8) I did get mine fired up with a terminal last year, and entered a few BASIC programs to give it a whirl... It'd be possible to do a Star Trek game on it (with more RAM), but I don't know if the BASIC could handle a text adventure (most Tiny BASICs aren't excellent at string maniupulation). -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 04:03:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! In-Reply-To: References: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> Message-ID: <34060.64.169.63.74.1111917807.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan wrote: > Nice... I don't have any SC/MP chips, but I do have some INS8073s, > which should be an SC/MP chip, but with Tiny Basic in ROM. The INS8070 is essentially a SC/MP III, though National didn't call it that. IIRC, it's not quite compatible with the SC/MP II (INS8060). The INS8073 is the version of the INS8070 with 2.5K "NIBL BASIC" in ROM. Eric From dogas at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 27 05:50:43 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 06:50:43 -0500 Subject: show segment comming on in minutes References: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> <34060.64.169.63.74.1111917807.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <001401c532c3$369d57e0$12881442@r2p0s6> heard 2nd hand... Currently on History Channel's Lost and Found program, US Eastern timezone, next story after Jumbo the Elephant... ENIACish story. FX: searching for vcr remote. ;) - Mike From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Mar 27 05:58:25 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 06:58:25 -0500 Subject: Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> References: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050327065336.01c93f00@pop.cogeco.ca> At 02:30 AM 3/27/2005, you wrote: >Just thought I'd let the listees know that while visiting my local parts >and equipment store today (which carries a large amount of discontinued >and surplus items of all types), I noticed there was a whole aisle of >electronic vacuum tubes there. Guess it's been there for quite a while, I >just hadn't noticed it before. I looked at several of the tubes and saw >that the addresses listed on the boxes contained no ZIP codes, so I figure >that a good part if not all of these tubes are vintage items from back in >the '50s or '60s. I have no idea what prices they have on these items as >most of the stuff is unmarked, but I know from buying other items there, >their prices are usually pretty reasonable. If anyone has any needs of >vintage vacuum tubes, contact me off list and I be glad to check on them >for you. I saw RCA, GE, and Sylvania there to mention a few and I believe >most were for TVs and Radios, but who knows what else I may find >there. I'm not an electronics person so I don't know what distinguishes >one tube type from another. Let me know if I can be of help to anyone out >there. > >Bill >bmachacek at pcisys.net > Back in the fifties and sixties tv manufacturers had a nasty habit of installing new odd ball tubes in their yearly models. Any one in the tv repair business had to stock a few of each, and if you never saw one of the sets, you never got rid of the tubes, I have several boxes of them. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca From dogas at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 27 06:10:05 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 07:10:05 -0500 Subject: Heathkit twins References: Message-ID: <006101c532c5$ea06fdc0$12881442@r2p0s6> Looks like Heathkit took some shortcuts on serial numbering. This auction for an ET-6800 popped up on my ebaydar: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5178153804& rd=1 .. has the same SN as my ET-6800 seen at http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/Hk01.jpg Anyone else have one that's NOT a serial #8? I'd like to bid on the ebay one but getting them both together might blow up the universe or something. ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 06:12:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:12:27 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout Message-ID: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone happen to know the organisation of a SunOS 4.x hard drive? Looking at the disklabel under Linux, I get the following: | Disk /dev/sdb (Sun disk label): 15 heads, 131 sectors, 1701 | cylinders Units = cylinders of 1965 * 512 bytes | | Device Flag Start End Blocks Id System | /dev/sdb1 0 48 47160 0 Empty | /dev/sdb2 48 152 102180 0 Empty | /dev/sdb3 0 1701 1671232+ 0 Empty | /dev/sdb4 152 264 110040 0 Empty | /dev/sdb7 264 1701 1411852+ 0 Empty (ignoring the 'empty' - think that must be a bug in Linux fdisk as I know there's a valid OS on the disk) Googling shows the first entry to be the root partition on such a drive, second entry to be swap, third to be the whole disk entry, and the rest to presumably be aux partitions... However, obviously some space is taken up by the partition table itself, so the first (root) partition can't start at block zero. What I'm trying to find out is the offset that it does actually start at, so that I can mount the root partition from Linux. Hopefully someone knows, if not it's trial and error time... :-) ta Jules From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 07:14:25 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:14:25 +0100 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a640503270514d96ff3f@mail.gmail.com> I crossposted this on the sun rescue list, somethere should be able to help. Dan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Mar 27 07:41:10 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:41:10 -0500 Subject: SIG/M diskettes In-Reply-To: <424654D5.A7FDD660@rain.org> References: <424654D5.A7FDD660@rain.org> Message-ID: <4246B7F6.nailDGZ1NZ3T3@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I just took a look at the SIMTEL arechives on the Walnut Creek CP/M > disk, and they appear to have all the disks (judging by the directors) > up through volume 310. There are a couple of entries from a couple of floppies that were "expurgated" from the SIMTEL archives after some controversy broke out over the ownership of the files. I think these are mostly CPMUG things and not SIG/M, but it's been so long that I cannot remember what the controversy was. Tim. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 07:52:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:52:18 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <26c11a640503270514d96ff3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a640503270514d96ff3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1111931538.6585.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 14:14 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > I crossposted this on the sun rescue list, somethere should be able to help. Thanks. The Sun board in question is the front-end for an early 1990's DSP-based RAP 'supercomputer', so it'd be nice to try and get it running again! cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 27 07:04:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:04:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Definition of a Computer (was: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 27, 5 00:36:36 am Message-ID: > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > >OK (and this came up in some private e-mail when discussing the major > >off-topic threads here). What is a computer? Becasue I certainly don't > >have an exact definition. > > I always heard it defined (and seemed the most logical/sensible to me) as: > > "A computer is a device which can perform arithmetic _and_ logical > functions without the aid of a human." Ah, but analogue computers don't perform logical functions.... And how much 'aid' does ther human have to provide? Most machines need to be turned on ;-). Often a human selects what program to run and what inputs to give it. > > Several of my earlier computing textbooks put it in this manner, explained > why it was so (see below) and it's always worked for me. > > That said, a 4-function calculator was not a computer (if that's all the > underlying hardware could handle[1]), but just about any programmable Yes, but to divide two floating-point numbers requires quite a sequence of operations (you try working out how to do it on a machine without even a full adder... [2]). Does that count as 'performing arithmetic and logical functions without the aid of a human'? [2] OK, not a 4-function machine, but this does describe the HP9100. > calculator was, if it had any type of control looping abilities, as that's > the "logical function" aspect of the definition. I think this illustrates my point. It's easy to find things that are definitely computers (the PDP11 in the next room, for example, the PC I am typing this on), and things that are certainly not computers (the camera sitting on top of said PC). THe problem comes with the boarderline cases -- like the programmable calculator with no looping constructs other than an automatic return-to-start at the end of the program. -tony From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Mar 27 08:56:56 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:56:56 -0500 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050324193113.00932820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050324193113.00932820@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050326210537.028706c0@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 19:31 24-03-05, Joe R. said something like: > > > > >anyway. The two fixed freq monitors specified for the 98547A are the HP > >98751A (19") or HP 98785A (16"). > > I doubt the 98547 will work with your card. The card *is* a 98547A. The 98751A and 98785A are the only two monitors listed in the '89 catalog (and mentioned on one or two online sources) as being compatible. > I have an old ADC VGA PC-type monitor that also has RGB inputs and it >does sync up to some of the HP cards including the 98751 IIRC. All of the >HP video cards have different scan rates and resolution so you just have to >try them to see if they work with the VGA monitors. If you have any other >HP video cards you could try one of them if the installed one doesn't work. > > If you can't figure it out you could always send the drive to me and >I'll hang it off of one of my systems. In fact I have a couple of HP >9000/362s that I need to try out. They use VGA monitors and and PS-2 >keyboards. I thought of having to do that if I had not found a way to drive a VGA monitor from the 98547A. That would help you extract the DOS Coprocessor software (and perhaps allow a drive image to be made for my backup). > > > > >had been removed from some sort of military transit case. There's a US > >government NSN number stenciled on the side of the CPU box. I'm going to > >check with some of my military radio collector friends to see what it > >translates to. > > An NSN won't tell you much other than the country of origin and >manufacturer. It won't tell you ANYTHING about the intended usage. Most >(all?) of HP's stuff is already in the government supply system and has >already been assigned NSNs and can be ordered off the shelf (pre-approved). >A common item like a computer could go into ANYTHING. OTOH the military >nomenclature may tell you a lot including what system it's a part of. There I understand a little bit about the NSN nomenclature and its limitations in this case, but knowing the *system* from whence it came may let me find more documentation on LOGSA or elsewhere as to what it was used for (if its not still classified). > >I found my HP/UX 5.5, BASIC/UX 5.5 and HP/UX 7.0 distro tapes, all still in > >shrinkwrap and their licence certificates, that I had squirreled away for a > >rainy day. I think Linux and one or two of the BSD's have been ported to > >run on this system. Anybody have the HP Pascal 3.1 or 3.2 system? > > I do. I also have several versions of BASIC and a couple of versions of >HPL. Ahhhh, yes, HPL. About 19-20 years ago I used to be nearly fluent in it on the HP9825. Lots of interesting stuff could be done with that machine and HPL if you put your mind to it. What type of media would that be on? > >How about documents -user manuals, tech data, service manuals, etc.?? > >Anything at all around in paper or .pdf for any of this h/w? Nothing on > >bitsavers.org. Anybody have HP 9000 websites? > > There is a BSD website that describes a lot of the high end HP 9000/300 >hardware. Sorry but I don't have the URL any more. I have some stuff posted >about the 9800 and 9000 200 series but litle about the 9000/300. I do have I have to admit it had been at least 14 months since I did concentrated searching upon the Web for 9000/300 stuff. A few things floated to the surface yesterday as follows . . . I just discovered this URL which has collated a bunch of info including some extracted from the HP 9000 Workstations Configuration Guide: http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/HPIB.shtml . BTW, this is the *first* time I ever saw mention of a 9000/332 workstation like I used to manage on a couple of really complex metrology machines at a previous workplace. They were used primarily as instrument controllers and data processing systems and probably were not thought of as being in the same league as the 320's, 340', 350's, etc. HP's Workstation Pascal 3.2 and some assembler (for the critically timed data collection routines) were the languages my German engineering colleagues used to write the application. Got a copy or two of the application source code around the house somewhere. This URL has some important info on the two monitors the 98547A RGB card drives: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-hp300/1996/03/28/0004.html . And this URL hits upon the subject matter of which we are discussing now: http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/vgamonitor.html . This is in line with the same thinking I had and that Eric J. Korpela had described with regard to making an RGA-to-VGA adaptor box -although I hadn't gotten to thinking about that good old LM1881 sync separator chip yet. All of those URLs did not come up directly from Googling on terms specific to their content but rather very indirectly after drilling down through two, three or four linking URLs found on previous pages in the searching. Takes a LOT of time hunting through webpages like had been done to stumble onto the above URLs, but it sure is rewarding occasionally like this has just been. >a LOT of docs that include material about the 9000/300, HP-UX, HW >configuration manuals, Pascal, HPL, BASIC and more. Golly Joe, I wish paper like that could be scanned for Al's site which would be a great resource for other HP 9000/300 enthusiasts. Lots o' work of course, but I would volunteer to help if it ever came to pass. I need to get my scanner setup and learn how to create .pdf files from the scans. I've got other docs that I feel could be an important addition to bitsavers.org anyway. I would especially like to find paper or .pdf copies of the HP 9000 *hardware* manuals and the Workstations Configuration Guide. Regards, Chris F. NNNN ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Treasurer Antique Wireless Association, Inc. 31 Houston Avenue Jamestown, New York Phone: +716-488-1722 14701-2627 USA email: cfandt at netsync.net Electronic/Electrical Historian URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Mar 27 09:51:57 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:51:57 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503271051.57457.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 27 March 2005 07:12, Jules Richardson wrote: > However, obviously some space is taken up by the partition table > itself, so the first (root) partition can't start at block zero. What > I'm trying to find out is the offset that it does actually start at, > so that I can mount the root partition from Linux. Actually, the root partition does start at sector 0. With a sun disk label, it's always on sector 0, and usually overlaps with the first partition. Thus, the filesystem is supposed to not occupy the first sector of its partition, which is the same for how PCs work (the first sector is usually called the 'boot sector' in PC land; in Sun land, the partition table/disk label and 'boot sector' can overlap, as there is no 'master' boot sector for the disk (ala the PC's MBR), thanks to the intelligence of the Sun's boot prom). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 27 10:05:05 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:05:05 -0600 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone happen to know the organisation of a SunOS 4.x hard drive? > > Looking at the disklabel under Linux, I get the following: > > | Disk /dev/sdb (Sun disk label): 15 heads, 131 sectors, 1701 > | cylinders Units = cylinders of 1965 * 512 bytes > | > | Device Flag Start End Blocks Id System > | /dev/sdb1 0 48 47160 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb2 48 152 102180 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb3 0 1701 1671232+ 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb4 152 264 110040 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb7 264 1701 1411852+ 0 Empty > > (ignoring the 'empty' - think that must be a bug in Linux fdisk as I > know there's a valid OS on the disk) The ID of 0 and the "Empty" System label mean that fdisk doesn't recognize the partition type, or more likely in this case, the ID field in the partition/slice table at all. It doesn't refer to whether there's data or filesystem on the slice. > However, obviously some space is taken up by the partition table itself, > so the first (root) partition can't start at block zero. What I'm trying > to find out is the offset that it does actually start at, so that I can > mount the root partition from Linux. Given the output of fdisk, I'm going to guess that your Linux kernel doesn't support the SunOS 4 filesystem type. I've got an email out to a friend who just installed on a 3/60 yesterday, so mayhap he can shedsome light on this. Meantime, see if your kernel has "sysv" filesystem support. I have a glimmer of a memory that that's what you'll need. ;) Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 10:09:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:09:45 -0500 Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! In-Reply-To: <34060.64.169.63.74.1111917807.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> <34060.64.169.63.74.1111917807.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 02:03:27 -0800 (PST), Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote: > > Nice... I don't have any SC/MP chips, but I do have some INS8073s, > > which should be an SC/MP chip, but with Tiny Basic in ROM. > > The INS8070 is essentially a SC/MP III, though National didn't call > it that. IIRC, it's not quite compatible with the SC/MP II (INS8060). > The INS8073 is the version of the INS8070 with 2.5K "NIBL BASIC" in ROM. Ah... thanks for the extra detail... didn't realize there were multiple versions of the SC/MP. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 10:41:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:41:54 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 10:05 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Given the output of fdisk, I'm going to guess that your Linux kernel > doesn't support the SunOS 4 filesystem type. I've got an email out to a > friend who just installed on a 3/60 yesterday, so mayhap he can shedsome > light on this. Meantime, see if your kernel has "sysv" filesystem > support. I have a glimmer of a memory that that's what you'll need. ;) Ahh, that's interesting. I expected it to be an ffs-derived format - in other words using a type of 'ufs' under linux and supplied with a "ufstype=sun" flag to the mount prog. A quick test reveals that I do have sysv filesystem support compiled in, but mount is no happier trying to mount the system as sysv :-( (Incidentally I noticed that linux fdisk defaults to reporting the blocks count in 1024-byte blocks, rather than the 512-byte blocks that the disk itself is using) >From what Patrick says, it should just work assuming I have the filesystem type right; the root partition is the first on the disk and incorporates the partition table, so has an offset of 0. Maybe support under Linux is a little broken (I know already that ufs/sun makes assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in some places) Hmmm... cheers Jules From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Mar 26 11:56:12 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:56:12 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <002801c53212$303f1d90$6401a8c0@barton> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org><33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74><424501A7.101@oldskool.org><34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> <002801c53212$303f1d90$6401a8c0@barton> Message-ID: <36308.195.212.29.75.1111859772.squirrel@195.212.29.75> > It's not entirely out of the question, after all, how many of you have the > knowledge of metalurgy to make any metal tool from say... the Bronze age, > or > Iron, or make gun powder, sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain > the > raw materials, and build the contraption that they used to make it? That's a silly question to ask on this list, isn't it? Gordon. From Tim at rikers.org Sat Mar 26 12:42:33 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:42:33 -0600 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe Message-ID: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> Hello list. I signed up and did the confirmation but did not yet receive a join msg. I presume the moderator will have to approve this msg. My first exposure to computers was using an HP TSB system. I'm interested in at least trying to get this going in an emulator. I started a wiki page on my progress: http://rikers.org/wiki/FirstComputer Seems most folks used 2000A on a dual cpu 2100S setup with dial in terminals. Our setup was not like this. The computer room had a 3 terminals hooked up to an HP-2114 series machine. I'm not sure about which model, but the front panel looked just like what I see in online pictures like: http://d116.com/vcf/east/1.0/hp2114a.jpg There were 2 crt terminals that each had 5k of working space. I seem to recall that the card reader and teletype had 2k or 3k each. I'm not sure if that was bytes or words. Perhaps it could have been an hp-2114c running ACCESS 2000E? I saw a post about the manual being available: http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctech/2004-July/032447.html and the the E series system works: http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctech/2003-November/022100.html Can someone hook me up with the pieces I need? I'm currently running SIMH with the hpbasic (basic1.abs) image. There are things that are missing like "DIM A$[100]" does not work on that version. On our setup with the single 2114 box, we did not have to login. Everyone shared the same disk storage area. I don't recall anyone having a username at all. there were just the 4 (2 crt, tty, and card reader) terminals. I recall folks kept forgetting to clear the current program before typing in a new one and then getting a mix of two programs. I don't recall the commands, but it seems to me you could be on a crt and tell the system to read from the card reader, then run a stack of cards and the program would be loaded into your memory intead of just being run and output to the printer. I do recall that stored files that started with an "!" were hidden from listings. I think there were 2 disks. One that was removeable and one that was not. They were locked in the cabinet and never removed. On another topic, since BZFlag is now over 10 years old, Does that make it Vintage? ;-) Are all you SGI folks using it? I have an old Indy here (IP22, 8bit) which I've been meaning to get it running on, but I'm missing OS CDs, compilers and such. If anyone can help out, that would be nice. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Mar 27 03:46:59 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:46:59 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <01C53288.4CA43C60@H89.C223.tor.velocet.net> That would be yours truly; I had sent you a note off-list but didn't get a reply. I've been copying/archiving some of it in PC format and sending it to Randy for his Cromemco archive/museum (see his reply yesterday), so contact him or me off-list & we'll see what we can do. Note that Cromemco had at least 6 different (more or less [in]compatible) OS's which may or may not be useful to you depending on what cards you have in that Z2 (although CDOS is more or less the lowest common denominator). Also, as Randy mentioned, if using PC-DOS format images, you may have trouble with the oft-discussed FM/MFM issue. mike -------------------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 00:15:35 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Hi, Some recently mentioned that they had a significant amount of Cromemco software, if that person would be willing to allow me to make dup's of their disks I would appreciate it, I have a CP/M system with both 5.25" and 8" disks on it so I can handle reading both types, I have a Z2 that I'd like to get up and running again and I would really like to get copies of CDOS and any Cromemco specific utils, thanks. Curt From andy at erlangerresearch.com Sun Mar 27 09:54:42 2005 From: andy at erlangerresearch.com (Andy Erlanger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:54:42 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II Message-ID: <0IE0003PUPJ3FL@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I'm going to be bidding on a system with 5.25" drives, so I guess that's what I'd need., even though I think the 8" drives are cooler. Thanks, Andy From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 27 10:57:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:57:20 -0600 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4246E5F0.5060809@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 10:05 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Given the output of fdisk, I'm going to guess that your Linux kernel >>doesn't support the SunOS 4 filesystem type. I've got an email out to a >>friend who just installed on a 3/60 yesterday, so mayhap he can shedsome >>light on this. Meantime, see if your kernel has "sysv" filesystem >>support. I have a glimmer of a memory that that's what you'll need. ;) > > > Ahh, that's interesting. I expected it to be an ffs-derived format - in > other words using a type of 'ufs' under linux and supplied with a > "ufstype=sun" flag to the mount prog. Actually, that's my bad. A little googling reveals that v4.x is indeed ufs. > (Incidentally I noticed that linux fdisk defaults to reporting the > blocks count in 1024-byte blocks, rather than the 512-byte blocks that > the disk itself is using) That confuses the students in my Linux classes as well, since fdisk reports in 1024-byte blocks even on ext partitions that have 4096-byte-block filesystems. :) >>From what Patrick says, it should just work assuming I have the > filesystem type right; the root partition is the first on the disk and > incorporates the partition table, so has an offset of 0. Maybe support > under Linux is a little broken (I know already that ufs/sun makes > assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in some places) > > Hmmm... It looks like the endian issue may be your problem. Don't have another SPARC to hang the disk from? Doc From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun Mar 27 11:24:30 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:24:30 -0600 Subject: Paper for TI Silent 700? Message-ID: <31rd41t3c51ttuhuk8d0vulfgq0pah7nj9@4ax.com> I just acquired a nice TI Silent 700 terminal and am looking for a source of the (thermal) paper rolls. thanks Charles From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 12:29:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:29:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503271841.NAA14973@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone happen to know the organisation of a SunOS 4.x hard > drive? Well, I've worked with SunOS 4 quite a bit, in a previous job. > Looking at the disklabel under Linux, I get the following: > | Disk /dev/sdb (Sun disk label): 15 heads, 131 sectors, 1701 > | cylinders Units = cylinders of 1965 * 512 bytes > | > | Device Flag Start End Blocks Id System > | /dev/sdb1 0 48 47160 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb2 48 152 102180 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb3 0 1701 1671232+ 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb4 152 264 110040 0 Empty > | /dev/sdb7 264 1701 1411852+ 0 Empty > (ignoring the 'empty' - think that must be a bug in Linux fdisk as I > know there's a valid OS on the disk) Note that Sun disklabels (certainly Sun disklabels of that era) do not have any partition typing. > Googling shows the first entry to be the root partition on such a > drive, second entry to be swap, third to be the whole disk entry, and > the rest to presumably be aux partitions... Normally, yes. I don't think root _had_ to be the a partition, or swap b, but those certainly were the normal way. c being the whole-disk partition was, I think, not optional. > However, obviously some space is taken up by the partition table > itself, so the first (root) partition can't start at block zero. Not true, actually. The partition table occupies sector 0 of the drive (actually, only part of the first sector, but the whole first sector is given over to it). Any bootable partition has bootcode in sectors 1 through 15. SunOS 4's filesystem, like the Berkeley FFS that it basically is, avoid doing anything with the first 16 sectors on its partition specifically to make room for bootcode (and, later, partition tables - the 16-sector carveout dates back to real BSD, farther back than on-disk partition tables). Yes, this means wasting 8K of space on partitions that are neither bootable nor first-on-disk, but that was apparently considered acceptable. Furthermore, Sun disklabels, while they store partition sizes as sector counts, store partition start points as cylinder counts, so you can't easily just skip the first 16 sectors - you'd have to skip the whole first cylinder. (You could, today, lie in the sector and track counts to get small cylinders, but back then, if you did that your disk likely wouldn't work right - some disks were addressed by triples rather than linear block numbers.) > What I'm trying to find out is the offset that it does actually start > at, so that I can mount the root partition from Linux. As in the disk label. If your Linux system can't mount it, it must not support that filesystem type. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 13:16:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:16:11 -0500 Subject: Paper for TI Silent 700? In-Reply-To: <31rd41t3c51ttuhuk8d0vulfgq0pah7nj9@4ax.com> References: <31rd41t3c51ttuhuk8d0vulfgq0pah7nj9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20050327141611.6a811004.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:24:30 -0600 Charles wrote: > I just acquired a nice TI Silent 700 terminal and am looking for a > source of the (thermal) paper rolls. > thanks > Charles > > Have you tried thermal fax paper? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 13:11:14 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Maybe support under Linux is a little broken (I know already that > ufs/sun makes assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in > some places) Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be big-endian. Your Linux FFS support has to be prepared for big-endian data structures on disk, which if you're on a little-endian architecture like i386 it may not be. That presumably-root partition is only some 46 megabytes. If you can get a dd image of it to me (offlist!), I can poke at it; I've written a bunch of tools for working with such things. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 13:15:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:15:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <36308.195.212.29.75.1111859772.squirrel@195.212.29.75> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org><33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74><424501A7.101@oldskool.org><34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> <002801c53212$303f1d90$6401a8c0@barton> <36308.195.212.29.75.1111859772.squirrel@195.212.29.75> Message-ID: <200503271922.OAA15153@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...], how many of you have the knowledge of metalurgy to make any >> metal tool from say... the Bronze age, or Iron, or make gun powder, >> sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain the raw materials, >> and build the contraption that they used to make it? Anyone who's read _Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen_ knows how to make gunpowder (well, anyone who's bothered to remember the details). Myself, I'm not sure I can keep it straight which ingredient is which, but I remember the 75:15:10 ratio, so it's at most six tries. :) As for metallurgy, well, no. But I could probably reinvent rudimentary cast iron with at most a few years' work; I expect the hardest part to redevelop would be extracting iron from ore. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Mar 27 13:44:23 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:44:23 -0500 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42470D17.4050808@compsys.to> Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > >> OK (and this came up in some private e-mail when discussing the major >> off-topic threads here). What is a computer? Becasue I certainly >> don't have an exact definition. > > I always heard it defined (and seemed the most logical/sensible to me) as: > "A computer is a device which can perform arithmetic _and_ logical > functions without the aid of a human." > Several of my earlier computing textbooks put it in this manner, > explained why it was so (see below) and it's always worked for me. Jerome Fine replies: I was told the following definition of a computer about 45 years ago: SPEEDY MORON! I find that it still fits (GRIN)!! In fact, until successful AI is developed, it will continue to fit - with the emphasis being more on the SPEEDY as opposed to the MORON. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Mar 27 11:45:10 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:45:10 +0200 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050327194510.2f7d79fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:12:27 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone happen to know the organisation of a SunOS 4.x hard drive? [...] > However, obviously some space is taken up by the partition table > itself, so the first (root) partition can't start at block zero. What > I'm trying to find out is the offset that it does actually start at, > so that I can mount the root partition from Linux. SunOS 4 is BSD and uses the BSD FFS. This in turn doesn't use the first 8 kB (16 blocks) in a slice. The first 8 kB (in slice a) are reserved for the disklabel(5) and first stage boot code. Therefore slice a starts at sector 0. You may try to use NetBSD to mount those disks. In the days of NetBSD 1.4 I mounted a SunOS 4 drive from NetBSD/sparc without any trouble. NetBSD uses the same disklabel(5) layout as Sun and the file system is AFAIK just the same. (Nevertheless I recommend to mount read only or to make a image backup before mounting read / write.) It should be easy to boot your sun3 or sun4 machine diskless with NetBSD from a Linux box. If you use a litle endian machine with NetBSD to analyze the disk read options(4) about FFS_EI. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From fernande at internet1.net Sun Mar 27 13:49:06 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:49:06 -0500 Subject: Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> References: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <42470E32.5000808@internet1.net> Let me guess..... Pembletons in Fort Wayne, Indiana? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Bill Machacek wrote: > Just thought I'd let the listees know that while visiting my local parts and equipment store today (which carries a large amount of discontinued and surplus items of all types), I noticed there was a whole aisle of electronic vacuum tubes there. Guess it's been there for quite a while, I just hadn't noticed it before. I looked at several of the tubes and saw that the addresses listed on the boxes contained no ZIP codes, so I figure that a good part if not all of these tubes are vintage items from back in the '50s or '60s. I have no idea what prices they have on these items as most of the stuff is unmarked, but I know from buying other items there, their prices are usually pretty reasonable. If anyone has any needs of vintage vacuum tubes, contact me off list and I be glad to check on them for you. I saw RCA, GE, and Sylvania there to mention a few and I believe most were for TVs and Radios, but who knows what else I may find there. I'm not an electronics person so I don't know what distinguishes one tube type from another. Let me know if I can be of help to anyone out there. > > Bill > bmachacek at pcisys.net > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 13:51:58 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:51:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: The SC/MP... it lives! In-Reply-To: References: <00d301c53263$8fbe6d60$5b24083d@river> <34060.64.169.63.74.1111917807.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <32904.64.169.63.74.1111953118.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: >> The INS8070 is essentially a SC/MP III, though National didn't call >> it that. IIRC, it's not quite compatible with the SC/MP II (INS8060). >> The INS8073 is the version of the INS8070 with 2.5K "NIBL BASIC" in ROM. Ethan wrote: > Ah... thanks for the extra detail... didn't realize there were > multiple versions of the SC/MP. In the interest of completeness, then, I'll note that the part number of the original SC/MP was "ISP-8A/500". The SC/MP II was known as both "ISP-8A/600" and "INS8060"; AFAIK it started as the former and was changed to the latter, perhaps because they decided that having punctuation in part numbers wasn't such a hot idea. Similarly, the National Semiconductor PACE ("Processing And Control Element", the world's first single-chip 16-bit microprocessor, PMOS, 1974) had the part number "IPC-16A/500", but the later NMOS version is the "INS8900". Eric From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 13:58:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:58:19 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050327145819.4f8a990d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > > Maybe support under Linux is a little broken (I know already that > > ufs/sun makes assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in > > some places) > > Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be > big-endian. Your Linux FFS support has to be prepared for big-endian > data structures on disk, which if you're on a little-endian > architecture like i386 it may not be. > I have a question about this that might be answerable by somebody here. Awhile back I had a drive from an RS/6000 system and was attempting to figure it out and get into it. I decided that I would need to use another big-endian system to copy the drive onto an image file to poke around in it. So I mounted the (SCSI) drive on a Sparc box here (everybody should have a lunchbox sparc around for such purposes) running NetBSD and used the dd command to make an image. Would it have made a difference if I'd used a little-endian system to image the drive? My impression has been that it would have, but it's not something I know a lot about (I'm dyslexic enough in real life without extending it to hard drives and filesystem endianess) -Scott From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 13:56:57 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:56:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: another hp2100 wannabe In-Reply-To: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tim wrote about HP 2000 Time Shared BASIC: > Seems most folks used 2000A on a dual cpu 2100S setup with dial in > terminals. 2000A only uses a single CPU, as did 2000B and 2000E. The dual-CPU versions are 2000C, 2000C' (aka High-Speed 2000C), 2000F, and 2000/Access. > Perhaps it could have been an hp-2114c running ACCESS 2000E? 2000E and 2000/Access are two completely independent things. I'm not sure whether 2000E would run on a 2114, but 2000/Access will not, as it requires two 2100 or two 21MX (M- or E-series) CPUs. > On our setup with the single 2114 box, we did not have to login. > Everyone shared the same disk storage area. I don't recall anyone having > a username at all. there were just the 4 (2 crt, tty, and card reader) > terminals. I recall folks kept forgetting to clear the current program > before typing in a new one and then getting a mix of two programs. I > don't recall the commands, but it seems to me you could be on a crt and > tell the system to read from the card reader, then run a stack of cards > and the program would be loaded into your memory intead of just being > run and output to the printer. That doesn't sound like any of the 2000 TSB variants. More likely it was a standalone multi-user BASIC. > I do recall that stored files that started with an "!" were hidden from > listings. That also doesn't sound like 2000 TSB. Eric From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Mar 27 13:56:55 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:56:55 -0800 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (der Mouse's message of "Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:11:14 -0500 (EST)") References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200503271956.j2RJutiE002274@lots.reanimators.org> der Mouse wrote: > Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be > big-endian. Even a SunOS 4.* filesystem written by a Sun 386i? -Frank McConnell From spc at conman.org Sun Mar 27 14:01:22 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:01:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271841.NAA14973@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Mar 27, 2005 01:29:28 PM Message-ID: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > Googling shows the first entry to be the root partition on such a > > drive, second entry to be swap, third to be the whole disk entry, and > > the rest to presumably be aux partitions... > > Normally, yes. I don't think root _had_ to be the a partition, or swap > b, but those certainly were the normal way. c being the whole-disk > partition was, I think, not optional. I always wondered why that was (and I think NetBSD wants it the same way---I seem to recall setting up the partitions like that on the HP/Apollos I have (but that are currently in storage at the moment)). It's such an odd arrangement (to me). -spc (Can't imagine *why* partition C needs to be the whole disk ... ) From tomj at wps.com Sun Mar 27 14:02:28 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Starting over with 8' drive on PC In-Reply-To: <33982.64.169.63.74.1111817228.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <33982.64.169.63.74.1111817228.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050327114947.M1175@localhost> There's no need to resort to magic and reading tea leaves with this stuff. NO IBM PC SYSTEM EVER SUPPORTED SINGLE-DENSITY FLOPPIES. EVER. You can probably coerce some controllers -- as mentioned by others -- into doing it. 160K is double-density (MFM). Do the math! You can get within 10% or so of knowing the formatted track capacity of any floppy by knowing any other floppy of similar physical specs. * 8" sssd: 247K. 26, 128-byte sectors, 77 tracks: KNOWN. OK, double density? About twice that. * I can't recall, and am too lazy to look up (see my waving hand) ibm feces 160k specs; but do that and calc same way. Single-density (FM) 5.25" floppies have about 85K byte capacity per side ("everyone" uses 250KHz). Nearly no one ever used those (cc- list threads accounting for every SSSD 5.25" system ever made, please post to cctalk :-) The head-load "issue" is also a crock. The head load/settle time is spec'd by the drive manufacturer. "Most" 8" drives have more head junk mass, and are slower to head load. If you don't wait long enough the heads are bouncing over the media while you're tryint to read and it causes havoc. This also was covered in this list. One cheap-skate way to test if this is an issue is to clip-lead HEAD LOAD so that the heads are loaded all the time. Presto! It will wear the disks out much faster but will be fine for 10 minutes of testing. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 27 14:09:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:09:03 -0700 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <42470D17.4050808@compsys.to> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <42470D17.4050808@compsys.to> Message-ID: <424712DF.5000904@jetnet.ab.ca> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > SPEEDY MORON! > > I find that it still fits (GRIN)!! In fact, until > successful AI is developed, it will continue to fit - > with the emphasis being more on the SPEEDY as opposed > to the MORON. So just what now is AI? Also if SI-FI predicts the future the AI hardware needs more work since the only thing in the future now that blinking lights are gone are Live SEX TOYs that you find every where. Well I guess the new def of a computer would be FAST BLOND! No wait ... most of them have pink hair ... sigh. Joking aside was not much of early analog computer and mechanical devices research based of simple ideas like feedback that was only thought to be a function of human or natural origin. Ben alias woodelf. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 27 14:19:24 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:19:24 -0600 Subject: SunOS Help Message-ID: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> I have two boot format QIC-24 tapes with SunOS 4.1.1 Sun-4c SUNBIN and OpenWindows version 2 on them per the tape labels. They are dated Jan 15, 1991 and I wanted to know what machines can I load and run this software on? Thanks John From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 27 14:29:43 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Definition of a Computer (was: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050327122755.V48294@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I always heard it defined (and seemed the most logical/sensible to me) as: > "A computer is a device which can perform arithmetic _and_ logical > functions without the aid of a human." "A computer terminal is not some clunky old television with a typewriter in fron of it. It is an interface where the mind and body can connect with the universe and move bits of it about." - Douglas Adams From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 27 14:29:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:29:49 -0700 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <424717BD.3060706@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (Can't imagine *why* partition C needs to be the whole disk ... ) > > It needs to 'C' the whole disk. All this talk of disks and MSDOS reminds me of when I was looking at primeval C online a few days back and the UNIX directory entry was something like char name[14], short unsigned int inode. While I don't know how big a unix disk block is that is still about the range of DOS's limit of 32 MEG/ disk. It is only once you got windows DID C take up the whole disk and small computing became BLOATWARE. The same thing in hindsight seems to be what happened with the VAX, and the 11 dropped. It does seem odd that DEC had the better product with the PDP-11 and UNIX 10 years before PC's came out yet missed the Personal Computer market totally. Ben alias woodelf. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Mar 27 14:52:44 2005 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:52:44 -0800 Subject: SunOS Help In-Reply-To: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> References: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> sun4c is sparcstation 1, sparcstation 2, sparcstation ipc, sparcstation ipx, possibly sparcstation 5 if i am remembering correctly.... and another possibility is sparc classic. At 12:19 PM 3/27/2005, you wrote: >I have two boot format QIC-24 tapes with SunOS 4.1.1 Sun-4c SUNBIN and >OpenWindows version 2 on them per the tape labels. They are dated Jan 15, >1991 and I wanted to know what machines can I load and run this software >on? Thanks John From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 14:45:29 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:45:29 +0100 Subject: SunOS Help In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> References: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <26c11a6405032712451a746978@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:52:44 -0800, Geoff Reed wrote: > sun4c is sparcstation 1, sparcstation 2, sparcstation ipc, sparcstation > ipx, possibly sparcstation 5 if i am remembering correctly.... and another > possibility is sparc classic. > I thought the 5 was a 4m. Netbsd says these are sun4c's * SPARCstation/server 1 * SPARCstation/server 1+ * SPARCstation/server 2 * Sun ELC * Sun IPC * Sun IPX * Sun SLC Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 14:56:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:56:21 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1111956981.6603.63.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 14:11 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > Maybe support under Linux is a little broken (I know already that > > ufs/sun makes assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in > > some places) > > Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be > big-endian. Your Linux FFS support has to be prepared for big-endian > data structures on disk, which if you're on a little-endian > architecture like i386 it may not be. Actually I used the Sun UFS support under Linux to mount one of the partitions from my Tek XD88 (once I'd manage to reverse-engineer the partition format) - that's despite the 88k CPU being big endian (I assume!) whilst my desktop PC will be little endian. The only thing that screwed up under Linux were the file timestamps - everything else seemed to be OK. I assume that the spec for FFS must dictate byte-order in most places where it's necessary... > That presumably-root partition is only some 46 megabytes. If you can > get a dd image of it to me (offlist!), I can poke at it; I've written a > bunch of tools for working with such things. I've had a couple of offers along similar lines - I really need to check there's no sensitive data on the machine first, though :-( *If* I can get the 4/330 board with the broken console port itself running, then at least I can check the data and then upload the root partition image so people can mess with it. (FWIW Linux doesn't support the various UFS-type systems in anything but read-only mode; my main aim was to get a raw image of the Sun's drive backed up - which I've done - I'm just trying to mount it out of curiousity to see if it can be done!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 15:04:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:04:31 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <20050327145819.4f8a990d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050327145819.4f8a990d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1111957471.6603.71.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 14:58 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) > der Mouse wrote: > > > > Maybe support under Linux is a little broken (I know already that > > > ufs/sun makes assumptions about the endian-ness of the filesystem in > > > some places) > > > > Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be > > big-endian. Your Linux FFS support has to be prepared for big-endian > > data structures on disk, which if you're on a little-endian > > architecture like i386 it may not be. > > > > I have a question about this that might be answerable by somebody here. > > Awhile back I had a drive from an RS/6000 system and was attempting to > figure it out and get into it. > > I decided that I would need to use another big-endian system to copy the > drive onto an image file to poke around in it. So I mounted the (SCSI) > drive on a Sparc box here (everybody should have a lunchbox sparc around > for such purposes) running NetBSD and used the dd command to make an > image. > > Would it have made a difference if I'd used a little-endian system to > image the drive? Generally, no. 'dd' just copies raw bytes as it sees them; it knows nothing of any structure on top of the raw data (such as a filesystem layout). It's only the code that you may then use to analyse the image which needs to worry about byte order where necessary. However, there do seem to be caveats. When I pulled raw data off my NCR Tower's drive I had to swap bytes before anything made sense, but I think that's an exception to the rule rather than the norm. FWIW, 'dd' supports the 'swab' argument to swap adjacent pairs of bytes. Why it's called swab rather than swap, I don't know - must have been done that way for a reason... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 15:10:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:10:17 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <1111957817.6603.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 15:01 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Normally, yes. I don't think root _had_ to be the a partition, or swap > > b, but those certainly were the normal way. c being the whole-disk > > partition was, I think, not optional. > > I always wondered why that was (and I think NetBSD wants it the same > way---I seem to recall setting up the partitions like that on the HP/Apollos > I have (but that are currently in storage at the moment)). It's such an odd > arrangement (to me). I think it's done to enable things like whole disk backups, where the size of the usable data area on the disk might not always be the entire addressable range of the drive (spare sectors, things optimised for cylinder boundaries resulting in some wastage etc.). Plus of course ST412 type drives don't have any notion of any "get drive geometry" command like SCSI does. Most machines of the era seem to support / require a "whole disk" entry (from memory it's entry #6 rather than #3 on my Tek) Why it's the third entry on Suns I don't know. Maybe it's something odd like OS bootable tapes support a condensed table with less entries than a disk or something... From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Mar 27 15:09:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:09:59 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050327145819.4f8a990d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1111957471.6603.71.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16967.8487.511000.470842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> FWIW, 'dd' supports the 'swab' argument to swap adjacent pairs Jules> of bytes. Why it's called swab rather than swap, I don't know Jules> - must have been done that way for a reason... Because that's the opcode symbol for the PDP11 instruction that SWAps Bytes, I would think. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 15:14:57 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:14:57 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <4246E5F0.5060809@mdrconsult.com> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246E5F0.5060809@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1111958097.6603.82.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 10:57 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > (Incidentally I noticed that linux fdisk defaults to reporting the > > blocks count in 1024-byte blocks, rather than the 512-byte blocks that > > the disk itself is using) > > That confuses the students in my Linux classes as well, since fdisk > reports in 1024-byte blocks even on ext partitions that have > 4096-byte-block filesystems. :) Sure, at the filesystem level disk blocks might be combined - I'm just surprised that fdisk doesn't report the block counts using the block size of whatever media it's dealing with. It obviously knows that it's dealing with a disk that uses 512-byte blocks, but it still shows the block counts as though they were 1024 byte blocks. Just struck me as odd! I'll be back at the museum tomorrow where I've left the DSP supercomputer system that this hard disk is part of, so hopefully I'll have a chance to do some more work on it and try to fix its console port. Darn thing's too big to bring home with me! :-) cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Mar 27 16:11:43 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:11:43 +0100 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <200503271922.OAA15153@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4244DDFC.1030403@oldskool.org><33842.64.169.63.74.1111809772.squirrel@64.169.63.74><424501A7.101@oldskool.org><34089.64.169.63.74.1111819103.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> <002801c53212$303f1d90$6401a8c0@barton> <36308.195.212.29.75.1111859772.squirrel@195.212.29.75> <200503271922.OAA15153@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <42472F9F.1090205@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >>>[...], how many of you have the knowledge of metalurgy to make any >>>metal tool from say... the Bronze age, or Iron, or make gun powder, >>>sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain the raw materials, >>>and build the contraption that they used to make it? > > > Anyone who's read _Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen_ knows how to make > gunpowder (well, anyone who's bothered to remember the details). > Myself, I'm not sure I can keep it straight which ingredient is which, > but I remember the 75:15:10 ratio, so it's at most six tries. :) On the basis that posting the recipe would probably make those readers in the less politically-free parts of the world into terrist suspec's, I will keep quiet on that one. > As for metallurgy, well, no. But I could probably reinvent rudimentary > cast iron with at most a few years' work; I expect the hardest part to > redevelop would be extracting iron from ore. Heat iron ore with charcoal. The carbon reduces the oxygen, leaving you with fairly poor quality iron. This is called "carburisation". You can then batter that about until you get wrought iron. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 16:15:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:15:10 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1111961710.6585.110.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 14:11 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > That presumably-root partition is only some 46 megabytes. If you can > get a dd image of it to me (offlist!), I can poke at it I've got further. Linux Sun UFS support is a little braindead; it doesn't know to assume that the first 16 blocks of the filesystem are special and so skip over them - it expects meaninful data right from block zero. Hacking the first 16 blocks from my test filesystem image has got around that problem... ... now mount's complaining because the filesystem is marked as unchecked (which is true - last shutdown was unclean due to us having a bust console port on the Sun). Unfortunately there's no option to override and just try mounting anyway. Presumably there's a flag somewhere in the superblock that I could change to indicate that the filesystem's OK, but finding it might be tricky. I need to fix that console port, get a running machine, then take an image of the checked disk I think! cheers J. From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 27 16:28:30 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:28:30 -0800 Subject: Apple 9500 Power supply Message-ID: <4247338E.9060907@ix.netcom.com> Someone recently asked for an Apple 9500 power supply. Who - and do you still need it? I saw a 9500 at the bottom of a pile in the garge today. Don't know what kind of shape it is in, but think it was working when last powered up. Billy From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Mar 27 16:42:20 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:42:20 -0500 Subject: Apple 9500 Power supply References: <4247338E.9060907@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <04ea01c5331e$465b2120$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Pettit" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 5:28 PM Subject: Apple 9500 Power supply > Someone recently asked for an Apple 9500 power supply. Who - and do you > still need it? I saw a 9500 at the bottom of a pile in the garge today. > Don't know what kind of shape it is in, but think it was working > when last powered up. > > Billy > I was asking about a Quadra 950 power supply, maybe that is what you are referring to? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 16:58:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:58:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <20050327194510.2f7d79fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050327194510.2f7d79fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200503272300.SAA17149@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You may try to use NetBSD to mount those disks. In the days of > NetBSD 1.4 I mounted a SunOS 4 drive from NetBSD/sparc without any > trouble. NetBSD uses the same disklabel(5) layout as Sun and the > file system is AFAIK just the same. In the 1.4 days these were within epsilon of true. They are less so now (NetBSD now keeps a BSD label on the disk, with the Sun label kept around just for PROM bootcode compatability, and NetBSD ffs has evolved significantly beyond the SunOS 4.x filesystem), but I think that even NetBSD-current can grok Sun-labeled disks and UFS filesystems. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 17:01:15 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:01:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503271956.j2RJutiE002274@lots.reanimators.org> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200503271956.j2RJutiE002274@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200503272303.SAA17171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be >> big-endian. > Even a SunOS 4.* filesystem written by a Sun 386i? Woo, I forgot about the roadrunner. A 386i-written filesystem will quite likely be little-endian. (While I haven't actually checked, I don't think Sun had endianness-independent UFS. But it's not too implausible that they had always-byteswapped-UFS support on the 386i, for compatability with 68k/SPARC filesystems.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 17:03:42 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:03:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050327200122.DB61D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200503272309.SAA17207@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Normally, yes. I don't think root _had_ to be the a partition, or >> swap b, but those certainly were the normal way. c being the >> whole-disk partition was, I think, not optional. > I always wondered why that was (and I think NetBSD wants it the same > way---I seem to recall setting up the partitions like that on the > HP/Apollos I have (but that are currently in storage at the moment)). NetBSD actually doesn't care what the partition table says in the c partition; the drivers simply ignore the partition table when accessing the c partition. I suspect Sun did the same thing, but I wasn't quite sure enough to come right out and say so. > It's such an odd arrangement (to me). The only odd thing, to me, is why it's the third of eight partitions that's the whole-disk partition. > -spc (Can't imagine *why* partition C needs to be the whole disk ... ) Compatability, that's about it. You could define RAW_PART to 7 in NetBSD and build yourself a system on which partition h is the whole disk and partition c is a perfectly vanilla partition. (You could set RAW_PART to 0 and get partition a as the whole-disk partition, even, but given the way the ROM bootcode defaults to using the a partition from the disklabel, that could be, um, confusing.) Having RAW_PART at all is a rather ugly kludge. The sane way to do it is to have separate devices for the whole disk and for the partitions, somewhat akin to the wedges that have been talked about (in NetBSD - I think one of the other BSDs already has something of the sort). But back when partitioning was first invented, I doubt anyone thought much about that, and now we're stuck with legacies. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun Mar 27 17:09:47 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:09:47 -0600 Subject: Silent 700 connector pinout? Message-ID: Thanks to several suggestions from cc members, I found that thermal fax paper on rolls is easy to find, for my "new" Texas Instruments Silent 700 terminal. However, I am not having as much luck finding a manual on-line. At least not for a reasonable price. The data connector on the back is a 15 pin D-sub male, (not 25 pin) and the unit specifically is a model 745 (with the acoustic couplers). Does anyone have the connector pinout? thanks Charles From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 27 17:14:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:14:47 +0000 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <200503272303.SAA17171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200503271956.j2RJutiE002274@lots.reanimators.org> <200503272303.SAA17171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1111965287.6585.120.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 18:01 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > >> Yes, if the filesystem really is a SunOS 4.* filesystem, it will be > >> big-endian. > > Even a SunOS 4.* filesystem written by a Sun 386i? > > Woo, I forgot about the roadrunner. A 386i-written filesystem will > quite likely be little-endian. Linux certainly treats the two as seperate - with a 'sun' UFS type for normal machines and a 'sunx86' type for the 386i, so I suspect you're right there. cheers J. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 17:10:14 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:10:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS Help In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> References: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <200503272314.SAA17234@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [quoting order repaired manually -dM] >> I have two boot format QIC-24 tapes with SunOS 4.1.1 Sun-4c SUNBIN >> and OpenWindows version 2 on them per the tape labels. [...] I >> wanted to know what machines can I load and run this software on? > sun4c is sparcstation 1, sparcstation 2, sparcstation ipc, > sparcstation ipx, possibly sparcstation 5 if i am remembering > correctly.... and another possibility is sparc classic. The Classic is 4m, as is the SS5. At least according to the jwbirdsa Sun hardware reference as served by sunhelp.org. The only sun4c machines listed there: 1, SLC, IPC, 1+, 2, ELC, IPX. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Mar 27 17:14:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:14:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111956981.6603.63.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <200503271915.OAA15122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1111956981.6603.63.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200503272317.SAA17260@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I assume that the spec for FFS must dictate byte-order in most places > where it's necessary... I don't think it does. I think all, and certainly within epsilon of all, multi-byte quantities are stored in host-native byte order. (Assuming, of course, that you haven't mounted it with opposite endianness, on systems that can. And, of course, it's possible that someone has built an implementation that *always* swaps, eg as I spectulated Sun may have done for the 386i.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Mar 27 18:39:23 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:39:23 -0500 Subject: SunOS 4.x boot disk layout In-Reply-To: <1111958097.6603.82.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111925547.6585.26.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246D9B1.9030605@mdrconsult.com> <1111941714.6603.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <4246E5F0.5060809@mdrconsult.com> <1111958097.6603.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4247523B.7060201@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 10:57 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>>(Incidentally I noticed that linux fdisk defaults to reporting the >>>blocks count in 1024-byte blocks, rather than the 512-byte blocks that >>>the disk itself is using) >> >> That confuses the students in my Linux classes as well, since fdisk >>reports in 1024-byte blocks even on ext partitions that have >>4096-byte-block filesystems. :) > > > Sure, at the filesystem level disk blocks might be combined - I'm just > surprised that fdisk doesn't report the block counts using the block > size of whatever media it's dealing with. It obviously knows that it's > dealing with a disk that uses 512-byte blocks, but it still shows the > block counts as though they were 1024 byte blocks. Just struck me as > odd! I'm allowed to say this, as a long-time Linux supporter and bigot. A LOT of Linux tools are "dumbed-down" to be accessible to people like I was when I first used it. I had a little DOS experience, no Unix or under-the-covers network or security knowledge at all, and the user-friendly mods and shortcuts made it much easier and much less foreign. Think about root's home directory in most Linux distributions - /root exists because noobs like me were running the system day-to-day as root, and mucking up the real root directory. > I'll be back at the museum tomorrow where I've left the DSP > supercomputer system that this hard disk is part of, so hopefully I'll > have a chance to do some more work on it and try to fix its console > port. Darn thing's too big to bring home with me! :-) I'd think you'd find a way.... ;) Doc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Mar 27 18:56:32 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:56:32 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <4245F6CE.3000505@gbronline.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yeah, but they're 8" and I believe he needs 5 1/4". Andy, where are you located? Joe At 06:57 PM 3/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >Once upon a time Joe Rigdon gave me an 820-II and Don Maslin sent me an >8" CP/M disk set for it. When I ran out of time and space I gave the >machine -- and as far as I can remember, the disks -- back to Joe. > >Hey Joe, still got those disks? > >Glen >0/0 > >Andrew Erlanger wrote: >> Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone >> has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. >> >> Thanks, Andy Erlanger >> >> >> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 27 19:00:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:00:15 -0600 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> <32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> Seems most folks used 2000A on a dual cpu 2100S setup with dial in >> terminals. To which eric replied > 2000A only uses a single CPU, as did 2000B and 2000E. Actually, 2000A and 2000E were the single cpu versions. 2000B was definitely a dual cpu configuration, sold at least initially on a 2116 for the main cpu and a 2114 for the "I/O processor". While a variety of matchups were possible, TSB was most commonly seen as dual 2100 cpus (one 2100A and one 2100S), or dual 21MX cpu's. > The dual-CPU versions are 2000C, 2000C' (aka High-Speed 2000C), > 2000F, and 2000/Access. And 2000B. >> Perhaps it could have been an hp-2114c running ACCESS 2000E? I'm not sure 2000E would run on a 2114. It just might. 2000/Access wouldn't run on a 2114, at least with only the 2114 cpu. >> On our setup with the single 2114 box, we did not have to login. >> Everyone shared the same disk storage area. I don't recall anyone having >> a username at all. there were just the 4 (2 crt, tty, and card reader) >> terminals. I recall folks kept forgetting to clear the current program >> before typing in a new one and then getting a mix of two programs. I >> don't recall the commands, but it seems to me you could be on a crt and >> tell the system to read from the card reader, then run a stack of cards >> and the program would be loaded into your memory intead of just being >> run and output to the printer. This sure doesn't sound like TSB. It isn't the standalone HP basic either. I don't believe I've heard of any HP basic system quite like that. Perhaps something written by a university? Jay West From gordt at gordtulloch.com Sun Mar 27 19:00:16 2005 From: gordt at gordtulloch.com (gordt at gordtulloch.com) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:00:16 -0600 Subject: Sup'R'Mod II docs? Message-ID: Hi all: I just got an old //e with a Sup'R'Mod II RF modulator - I hooked it up as expected to the TV (my 3 year old loves Moon Patrol in mono, so I figured he'll love it more in color ;) but no joy - anyone out there got docs for this? A scan would be lovely, mail would be fine and compensated. Let me know, thx! Regards, Gord From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 27 19:45:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:45:59 -0600 Subject: Fw: PDP-11 Emulator Message-ID: <00d601c53337$e4679a60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was sent the following from a guy in russia, about a PDP11 emulator written for DOS in 1992. I have placed the file on classiccmp at the following URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/MISC/ The file is called rt11.tar.gz and the uncompressed files are visible as well. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aceler" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 4:33 AM Subject: PDP-11 Emulator >I have a freeware DEC PDP-11 (originally, FODOS) emulator, written by A. > Poletaev in 1992 for DOS, with some programs. But readme is in russian. > From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 27 19:52:59 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:52:59 -0600 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? In-Reply-To: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327194129.0aab0950@localhost> Not too hard. I used to do this all the time. The clock chip actually has a reset input pin. We used to just slam it to the ground rail but that was slightly destructive-- better to ground it through a 100 to 500 ohm resistor or so. For AT class machines, the clock chip is an 82284 (18-pin dip). For the 5150 I think it's a 8284. Either way, the reset pin is # 11. In a pinch, I used to used the tip of a screwdriver to short it to the next (pin 10) pin. At 11:50 AM 3/26/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Has anyone ever wired up a reset button/switch for their IBM PCs? I find >myself powering down-then-up my 5150 three times a day when all it needs >is a hard reset to reboot a hung machine. I've searched the web and >usenet archives for such a design or specs but haven't found anything. If >I could soldier a few wires to a pushbutton, I feel like I would less >harsh to the machine... > >Or, does it not really matter? Is it not a big deal to power down, then >power up (after 5 second delay) a 5150 or 5160? I know IBM PCs were built >well, but I am unwilling to find out *how* well :) >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." -- Sir Winston Churchill --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Mar 27 20:17:09 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:17:09 -0600 Subject: Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327201505.0ab23348@localhost> I have nearly 1000 radio and TV (and some exotic) tubes (valves to you Brits) that I'd dearly love to peddle to someone. Problem is, they're not in boxes, most of them, and testing them would take years, even though I have the gear to do so. Unboxed (=unknown condition) tubes are apparently worth very little. At 12:30 AM 3/27/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Just thought I'd let the listees know that while visiting my local parts >and equipment store today (which carries a large amount of discontinued >and surplus items of all types), I noticed there was a whole aisle of >electronic vacuum tubes there. Guess it's been there for quite a while, I >just hadn't noticed it before. I looked at several of the tubes and saw >that the addresses listed on the boxes contained no ZIP codes, so I figure >that a good part if not all of these tubes are vintage items from back in >the '50s or '60s. I have no idea what prices they have on these items as >most of the stuff is unmarked, but I know from buying other items there, >their prices are usually pretty reasonable. If anyone has any needs of >vintage vacuum tubes, contact me off list and I be glad to check on them >for you. I saw RCA, GE, and Sylvania there to mention a few and I believe >most were for TVs and Radios, but who knows what else I may find >there. I'm not an electronics person so I don't know what distinguishes >one tube type from another. Let me know if I can be of help to anyone out >there. > >Bill >bmachacek at pcisys.net > Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." -- Sir Winston Churchill --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Mar 27 20:26:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:26:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050327201505.0ab23348@localhost> Message-ID: > I have nearly 1000 radio and TV (and some exotic) tubes (valves to you > Brits) that I'd dearly love to peddle to someone. Problem is, they're not > in boxes, most of them, and testing them would take years, even though I > have the gear to do so. Unboxed (=unknown condition) tubes are apparently > worth very little. What are the exotic types? Anyway, yes box lots like this are worth very little. Series string TV and radio tubes (those dumb voltage types) are nearly all worthless. Others have some value, but we are talking cents per tube. For example, when I buy box lots (I do this quite a bit), I will pay about two cents per miniature "boatanchor" tubes (those used in ham radios from the 50s and 60s), maybe four cents per octal and loctal "boatanchor" types, maybe five cents for metals, and maybe eight cents for big pin types (the 30s types). Even then, I often reject many box lots due to too much crap. That, or the price plummets from there. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dancohoe at oxford.net Sun Mar 27 20:40:01 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:40:01 -0500 Subject: Silent 700 connector pinout? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c5333f$711bca10$6501a8c0@dcohoe> > > However, I am not having as much luck finding a manual on-line. At > least not for a reasonable price. The data connector on the back > is a 15 pin D-sub male, (not 25 pin) and the unit specifically is > a model 745 (with the acoustic couplers). > > Does anyone have the connector pinout? > > thanks > Charles > The S-700 side of the connector has two separate sets of data connections, one for the keyboard/printer and one for the acoustic coupler. An option was a cable which branched to two DB25's for connection to each part of the terminal. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Terminal Cable Function | Connector(P1) Termination P2 & P3 --------------------------------------------------------------------- P1-9 P2-1 Protective Ground | P1-13 P2-2 Transmit Data | P1-12 P2-3 Receive Data |KeyBoard P1-10 P2-4 +12 Volts to RTS |& Printer P1-1 P2-7 Signal Ground |EIA P1-11 P2-8 Data Carrier Detect | P1-15 P2-20 Data Terminal Ready | P1-8 P3-3 Receive data | P1-3 P3-2 Transmit Data | P1-1 P3-7 Signal Ground |Acoustic P1-2 P3-8 Carrier Detect |Coupler P1-9 P3-1 Protective Ground |EIA P1-6 P3-5 Clear to send | P1-7 P3-6 Data Set Ready | I have the manual and could scan some more pages if necessary. Dan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Mar 27 11:21:06 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:21:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050326080901.04c25af0@mail> from "John Foust" at Mar 26, 5 08:10:13 am Message-ID: <32081.195.212.29.67.1111944066.squirrel@195.212.29.67> >> >> At 12:38 AM 3/26/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >> >I'm not sure I buy that either. Hundreds of years from now (or after >> >the singularity), when most machines are designed by other machines >> with >> >no human intervention other than stating the requirements, will there >> be >> >anyone who understands the lowest level of how they work? >> >> Sure. Sellam's and Tony's heads will be preserved in jars >> and still talking. I saw it on TV in a show about the future. > > I'm not sure what use my head would be without arms/hands to type in > replies and/or discover new ways of maintaining these machines.... :-) Simple. Neural implant, with a USB adaptor in the bottom of the jar. Gordon. From bv at norbionics.com Sun Mar 27 12:00:35 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:00:35 +0200 Subject: Reset switch for IBM 5150/5160? In-Reply-To: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> References: <4245A0DD.2070506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:50:21 +0100, Jim Leonard wrote: > Has anyone ever wired up a reset button/switch for their IBM PCs? I > find myself powering down-then-up my 5150 three times a day when all it > needs is a hard reset to reboot a hung machine. I've searched the web > and usenet archives for such a design or specs but haven't found > anything. If I could soldier a few wires to a pushbutton, I feel like I > would less harsh to the machine... > I have a number of reset devices which I made for a special application (keyboardless PCs), but they only work like a keyboard reset. It is, actually, a Z8 which pretends to be a keyboard. The early PCs did not like to start without a keyboard. > Or, does it not really matter? Is it not a big deal to power down, then > power up (after 5 second delay) a 5150 or 5160? I know IBM PCs were > built well, but I am unwilling to find out *how* well :) We had a couple of short power failures some time in the eighties. One-second dips, any kind of power disturbance was very uncommon here in Norway, so it was a memorable event. The IBMs and a Commodore PC-20 were the only PC-type equipment which did not even have a hiccup. I think they still had properly designed power supplies. -- -bv From andy at erlangerresearch.com Sun Mar 27 13:24:10 2005 From: andy at erlangerresearch.com (Andy Erlanger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:24:10 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II Message-ID: <0IE0005GVZ821D@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> (Previously posted in html, my apologies). I'm going to be bidding on a system with 5.25" drives, so I guess that's what I'd need, even though I think the 8" drives are cooler. Thanks, Andy From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Mar 27 15:58:01 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:58:01 +0100 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > We've got a Sun 4/330 which has bit 6 stuck high in every character > output on the console. I don't suppose anyone has schematics for these > boards or know how the serial hardware works, do they? There's a Zilog serial chip, quite close to the serial connector. If it's just bit 6 that's faulty, it sounds like a fault in that chip (in the parallel section). I think it's a Z8530. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From Tim at rikers.org Sun Mar 27 20:27:55 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:27:55 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic Message-ID: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> From what I hear, the system I used was not one of the TSB series. I'm still interested in trying it out. I don't see binaries online anywhere. Can someone point me to them? I never did any admin on the systems as a student. I only had access using BASIC. I have booted up SIMH with the hp basic stand alone, and it's similar but lacks some features our system had like string variables. http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/basic1.abs I see on jeffs site the source tapes for 22255 "Four user BASIC". Perhaps this is the system we were running? 2 CRTs, one ASR-33 and a card reader would mean 4 users, correct? http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/index.html Anyone willing to give be instructions on how to get the files assembled? I would think I'd load something like the "extended assember" via PTR: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/siotapes/extasmb.abs jump someplace? and then feed in each of the basic tapes on the same PTR? My experience has been with Linux on all kinds of hardware, from x86 servers and desktops to alpha, sparc, ia64, mips, ppc, sh3, and many arm systems. Most recent work is with ARM boxes. I was deeply involved with the SHarp Zaurus release while working at Lineo (or Embedix, or Metroworks, or whatever they call themselves now). I have simh up and running. Not the same without the blinking lights. Perhaps Jay's emulator will have blinking lights? We did a version of VNC for the Zaurus that had a "skin" which was a scanned image of the device. I envision the same interface on an emulator. click the buttons with the mouse, turn the key to lock/unlock, Would be nice to have a tape reader with audio and perhaps a mag tape too. ;-) There used to be some internet accessable simh access systems running. Are they still? I notice that simh just loops like the actual machine would. This means it eats up 100% cpu all the time. Seems to me that should get hacked somehow to detect "idle" states, and select() someplace for a short ammount of time instead of looping all the time. If I ran the simulator on my Zaurus it would suck the battery dry in no time. We can't have that can we? ;-) Well, thanx in advance for the help. I look forward to trying out the 4 user basic environment and see if it's what I recall. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 21:04:09 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <33858.64.169.63.74.1111979049.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tim wrote: > I see on jeffs site the source tapes for 22255 "Four user BASIC". [...] > Anyone willing to give be instructions on how to get the files > assembled? I would think I'd load something like the "extended assember" > via PTR: > > http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/siotapes/extasmb.abs It might be possible to cross-assemble with with asm21: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/asm21/ Thus far I've only tested asm21 for assembling the HP 2000C' sources, so I don't know how well it will work for other programs. But it runs on an machine with Perl, so it may be easier than using a 21xx resident assembler. Eric From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun Mar 27 21:11:15 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:11:15 -0600 Subject: Sup'R'Mod II In-Reply-To: <200503280300.j2S30e9M096874@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503280300.j2S30e9M096874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0dte41drc7ah1t6lgm03cpbgsuel70m028@4ax.com> The only thing I remember about these ancient boxes is that they used UHF Channel 33. If you're hooked up to VHF Channel 3 or 4 you won't see anything... -Charles On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:00:49 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >From: gordt at gordtulloch.com >Subject: Sup'R'Mod II docs? >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Hi all: > >I just got an old //e with a Sup'R'Mod II RF modulator - I hooked it up as >expected to the TV (my 3 year old loves Moon Patrol in mono, so I figured >he'll love it more in color ;) but no joy - anyone out there got docs for >this? A scan would be lovely, mail would be fine and compensated. Let me >know, thx! > >Regards, > Gord From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 21:39:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:39:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: another hp2100 wannabe In-Reply-To: <008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> <32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote about HP 2000 Time Shared BASIC: > 2000A only uses a single CPU, as did 2000B and 2000E. Jay wrote: > Actually, 2000A and 2000E were the single cpu versions. 2000B was > definitely a dual cpu configuration, sold at least initially on a 2116 > for the main cpu and a 2114 for the "I/O processor". Oops, you're right. My own web page has the correct info, but my memory is terrible. Tim wrote: >>> Perhaps it could have been an hp-2114c running ACCESS 2000E? I wrote: >> I'm not sure whether 2000E would run on a 2114 and Jay wrote: > I'm not sure 2000E would run on a 2114. It just might. Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. How much memory can a 2114 be equipped with? That's another potential problem with trying to use a 2114 for either 2000A or 2000E, or as a system processor for the dual-processor versions. The 2114 might also be short on I/O slots, though it has enough to be an I/O processor for 2000B and 2000C. Eric From dan at ekoan.com Sun Mar 27 22:01:35 2005 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:01:35 -0500 Subject: Bubble memory board Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050327225824.08042dc0@mail.marcal.com> At the Northrop-Grumman (nee TRW) swap meet yesterday I bought what appears to be an 8-bit ISA bubble memory card. It's labeled as a circuit lab UL-82094. I've got photos of the board at http://decodesystems.com/help-wanted/bubble-memory-board.html Does anyone have any documentation and/or drivers for this board? Cheers, Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 27 21:58:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:58:03 -0600 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote... > Oops, you're right. My own web page has the correct info, but my > memory is terrible. My memory is worse, I had to go dig through manuals to know. My mental run queue is only about 3 entries deep these days :) > Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, > because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point > microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. Aha, but there WAS floating point available for the 2116. A separate rackmount box. I have no clue if it had the same interface as the later FP options. > How much memory can a 2114 be equipped with? That's another potential > problem with trying to use a 2114 for either 2000A or 2000E, or as a > system processor for the dual-processor versions. The 2114 might also > be short on I/O slots, though it has enough to be an I/O processor > for 2000B and 2000C. Very good points. I'm not going to dig up the answers unless someone has a 2114 they are trying to get running ;) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 27 16:20:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:20:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper for TI Silent 700? In-Reply-To: <31rd41t3c51ttuhuk8d0vulfgq0pah7nj9@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Mar 27, 5 11:24:30 am Message-ID: > > I just acquired a nice TI Silent 700 terminal and am looking for a > source of the (thermal) paper rolls. Have you tried thermal fax paper? It works great in HP thermal printers. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 27 22:25:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: another hp2100 wannabe In-Reply-To: <002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <34081.64.169.63.74.1111983923.squirrel@64.169.63.74> I wrote: > Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, > because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point > microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. Jay wrote: > Aha, but there WAS floating point available for the 2116. A separate > rackmount box. I have no clue if it had the same interface as the later FP > options. But I wrote "require the floating point *microcode*" (emphasis added). The 2152A floating point processor would not work with any version of TSB. I *think* a 21MX F-series (with hardware floating point) could probably be used as the system processor for 2000E, 2000F, or 2000/Access, but I don't have proof. I just cleaned up my 2000 TSB model comparison chart a bit, though it may still have some errors. It can be seen at: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/hp/2000/models.html Eric From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 27 22:56:10 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:56:10 -0600 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74><002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <34081.64.169.63.74.1111983923.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <003701c53352$75c6b9e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote... > I just cleaned up my 2000 TSB model comparison chart a bit, though it > may still have some errors. It can be seen at: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/hp/2000/models.html Great job Eric, Kudos!!! Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Mar 27 23:29:37 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:29:37 -0800 Subject: Paper for TI Silent 700? References: <31rd41t3c51ttuhuk8d0vulfgq0pah7nj9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42479641.8629EF2E@msm.umr.edu> Charles wrote: > I just acquired a nice TI Silent 700 terminal and am looking for a > source of the (thermal) paper rolls. > thanks > Charles As another poster said, thermal fax paper works, just get the smaller diameter rolls to start with in case you have a small paper compartment. It worked for me last time I added paper to my silent 700's From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 01:44:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:44:47 -0500 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:58:01 +0100, John Honniball wrote: > There's a Zilog serial chip, quite close to the serial connector. > If it's just bit 6 that's faulty, it sounds like a fault in that > chip (in the parallel section). I think it's a Z8530. Suns (as well as old Macintoshes, etc.) do use Z8530s for serial ports. Depending on the vintage of Sun, it's likely to be in a PLCC package, though. Dunno much about the Sun 3 line, so I can't say. I do have some experience with the Z8530... they were shipped in several speed increments (we used to use the 4MHz version on our later COMBOARDs), so make sure if you find/pull a replacement that the speed matches. I _think_ 8MHz was the fastest version made. -ethan From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Mar 28 05:01:49 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:01:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Xerox 820-II Message-ID: <24071392.1112007709362.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> you can buy "brand new" copies of CP/M for the 820 from California Digital. The last time I checked they had gotten rid of most everything except CP/M and a few other things. http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm what their website doesn't mention is that it was for the Xerox 820 and it is 5 1/4" format. I don't know about compatibility between individual Xerox machines though. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Andy Erlanger Sent: Mar 27, 2005 2:24 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Xerox 820-II (Previously posted in html, my apologies). I'm going to be bidding on a system with 5.25" drives, so I guess that's what I'd need, even though I think the 8" drives are cooler. Thanks, Andy From aserlanger at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 21:26:53 2005 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (Andy Erlanger) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:26:53 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0IE100DQALKUPQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I'm on Long Island, New York. You guys are probably in CA, right? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:57 PM To: acme at gbronline.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox 820-II Yeah, but they're 8" and I believe he needs 5 1/4". Andy, where are you located? Joe At 06:57 PM 3/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >Once upon a time Joe Rigdon gave me an 820-II and Don Maslin sent me an >8" CP/M disk set for it. When I ran out of time and space I gave the >machine -- and as far as I can remember, the disks -- back to Joe. > >Hey Joe, still got those disks? > >Glen >0/0 > >Andrew Erlanger wrote: >> Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone >> has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. >> >> Thanks, Andy Erlanger >> >> >> > From Tim at rikers.org Mon Mar 28 00:03:17 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:03:17 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <33858.64.169.63.74.1111979049.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> <33858.64.169.63.74.1111979049.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <42479E25.9030604@Rikers.org> Eric Smith wrote: > It might be possible to cross-assemble with with asm21: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/asm21/ > > Thus far I've only tested asm21 for assembling the HP 2000C' sources, > so I don't know how well it will work for other programs. But it > runs on an machine with Perl, so it may be easier than using a > 21xx resident assembler. Thanx! The files are on: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/ I tried it out with asm21 and found a few things: I first removed the tape wrappings from the text files (of course) and then combined them all. Then I found that 22255-08.txt has some garbage on line 11 and 12: - STB BFAD2 SAVE ADDRESS - JMP WCONT MOVE IN AND PROCESS + STBFAD2 SAVE ADDRESS + P WCONT MOVE IN AND PROCESS there are odd chars in the term names: - } elsif ($str =~ s/^([a-zA-Z.?%\#\$][0-9a-zA-Z.?%\/=\#\$]*)//) { + } elsif ($str =~ s/^([a-zA-Z.?%\#\$\&\[\/@\^\!][0-9a-zA-Z.?%\/=\#\$\&\[\/@\^\!]*)//) { I suspect that change should just be made to asm21.pl Once compiled, it loads up into simh but running does not seem to do much of anything. I suspect it wants the earlier "dumb" mux? Perhaps it's just expecting things in different slots. I'll hack on it more, but I'm open to suggestions. I'll keep posting things on the wiki from time to time: http://rikers.org/wiki/FirstComputer -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 28 10:53:15 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:53:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Votrax 'Type 'N Talk' PSU Message-ID: <5694.62.177.191.201.1112028795.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Available for $5 + shipping, a Votrax 'Type 'N Talk' PSU (120V/60Hz/50W). PSU has a DIN style 5 prong audio plug for the unit, and is in good shape. If interested, contact me directly Ed From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Mar 28 10:12:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:12:15 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <0IE100DQALKUPQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050328111215.00abc8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Nope, I'm in Florida. I was thinking that if you were close I'd loan you some 8" drives. But they're heavy so I doubt you'd want to ship them, especailly both ways. Joe At 10:26 PM 3/27/05 -0500, you wrote: >I'm on Long Island, New York. You guys are probably in CA, right? > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Joe R. >Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:57 PM >To: acme at gbronline.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Xerox 820-II > > Yeah, but they're 8" and I believe he needs 5 1/4". > > Andy, where are you located? > > Joe > > >At 06:57 PM 3/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >>Once upon a time Joe Rigdon gave me an 820-II and Don Maslin sent me an >>8" CP/M disk set for it. When I ran out of time and space I gave the >>machine -- and as far as I can remember, the disks -- back to Joe. >> >>Hey Joe, still got those disks? >> >>Glen >>0/0 >> >>Andrew Erlanger wrote: >>> Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone >>> has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. >>> >>> Thanks, Andy Erlanger >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Mar 28 11:01:46 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:01:46 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Votrax 'Type 'N Talk' PSU Message-ID: <27706096.1112029307310.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> sounds great. Let me know. Thanks. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: quapla at xs4all.nl Sent: Mar 28, 2005 11:53 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Votrax 'Type 'N Talk' PSU Available for $5 + shipping, a Votrax 'Type 'N Talk' PSU (120V/60Hz/50W). PSU has a DIN style 5 prong audio plug for the unit, and is in good shape. If interested, contact me directly Ed From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 28 11:07:23 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:07:23 -0500 Subject: DEC/CMD QBUS CQD-223/T - question about ROMs References: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050328111215.00abc8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003801c533b8$9c270890$3a92a8c0@maggie> anyone have both a CQD-223/T and CQD-223/M or CQD-223/MT ? are they the same boards with only different ROMS/EPROMS? Makes sense to have the same hardware and enable TSCP, MSCP based on model/options or different firmware. Anybody know? thanks -h From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 11:13:35 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:13:35 +0100 Subject: Dssi Cables Message-ID: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> I might have asked this on here before a while back..... But does anyone on here have any dssi-->hsd cables. I've got a storage rack which has the potential to be 12x9gb scsi storage for my vaxcluster. But I have the wrong cables. The cables I have go between (I think) 2 hsd devices. I need a couple of cables to connect to a 4000, can anyone help. Thanks Dan From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 11:13:57 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:13:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC/CMD QBUS CQD-223/T - question about ROMs In-Reply-To: <003801c533b8$9c270890$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050328111215.00abc8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <003801c533b8$9c270890$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <32891.64.169.63.74.1112030037.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Heinz wrote: > anyone have both a CQD-223/T and CQD-223/M or CQD-223/MT ? > are they the same boards with only different ROMS/EPROMS? On the Unibus boards, the difference was a decode PAL, and the EPROMs were the same. I suspect the Qbus boards would have done the same, but I've never examined them. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 12:41:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:41:12 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 02:44 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:58:01 +0100, John Honniball > wrote: > > There's a Zilog serial chip, quite close to the serial connector. > > If it's just bit 6 that's faulty, it sounds like a fault in that > > chip (in the parallel section). I think it's a Z8530. > > Suns (as well as old Macintoshes, etc.) do use Z8530s for serial > ports. Depending on the vintage of Sun, it's likely to be in a PLCC > package, though. Just to confirm - Zilog parts labelled Z0853006PSC (SCC) are the same as AMD part AM8250H-6 ? (I would think so) This Sun board has two AMD parts which run the four serial ports (plus a third which looks to handle keyboard and mouse) I've identified whch of the three on the board is responsible for the console port (and faulty). However, I've got a Sun "Comm Processor II" board in a Sun 3/150 which has eight of the Zilog ICs on board. We don't need that many ports for anything, so I'm tempted to do a swap (if I don't find a surplus AMD chip in my spares bin). Earlier I cut the A/-B track (which selects which of the two ports on the SCC chip to use) and diverted it via an inverter, so that when the Sun 4/330 thought it was accessing the console port it was actually was using the second serial line - hooked up the physical console to the second port then, but no change in the garbled output. So basically that confirms the the SCC chip is broken, and that the parallel - serial conversion is common to both ports on the chip (which is understandable). I was hoping for a quick win though :) Time to get the desoldering equipment out I think... cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 28 12:45:00 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:45:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I might have asked this on here before a while back..... > But does anyone on here have any dssi-->hsd cables. I've got a storage > rack which has the potential to be 12x9gb scsi storage for my > vaxcluster. But I have the wrong cables. The cables I have go between > (I think) 2 hsd devices. I need a couple of cables to connect to a > 4000, can anyone help. I might have - can you give me part numbers? I know I rescued a lot of DSSI stuff in the past but they might not have the right ends..... cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 12:45:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:45:28 -0500 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:41:12 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Just to confirm - Zilog parts labelled Z0853006PSC (SCC) are the same as > AMD part AM8250H-6 ? (I would think so) I do not know what the AMD equivalent of a the Zilog part is, sorry. One thing I _did_ notice is that the Zilog part you listed should be the 6MHz version (4, 6 and 8 are the ones I'm familiar with). Obviously, one can use either a 6Mhz or 8Mhz where a 6MHz is called for. > This Sun board has two AMD parts which run the four serial ports (plus a > third which looks to handle keyboard and mouse) That makes sense (the Z8530 for kb and mouse). -ethan From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 28 12:49:02 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:49:02 -0500 Subject: Dssi Cables References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c533c6$d06a5d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Since you last asked the question I was able to find one of the following DSSI cables: BC22Q-09. It connects from the "old style" DSSI to the newer one. I don't believe that SCSI (as you have mentioned) can be addressed on a DSSI system without active electronics. What you may be referring to is that some DEC made some RF/RZ drives, which could speak both protocols. > I need a couple of cables to connect to a 4000, can anyone help You can enter "BC22Q" into the search-engines. John A. From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Mon Mar 28 12:55:28 2005 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:55:28 +0200 Subject: Bubble memory board In-Reply-To: <200503281801.j2SI0s4a003422@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503281801.j2SI0s4a003422@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42485320.8000501@xs4all.nl> >At the Northrop-Grumman (nee TRW) swap meet yesterday >I bought what appears to be an 8-bit ISA bubble memory card. >It's labeled as a circuit lab UL-82094. > >I've got photos of the board at >http://decodesystems.com/help-wanted/bubble-memory-board.html > >Does anyone have any documentation and/or drivers for this board? > > Documentation on the bubble chip set is at http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/pc5000/doc/ > >Cheers, > >Dan > > > Fred Jan From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 13:10:48 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:10:48 +0100 Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <00ae01c533c6$d06a5d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> <00ae01c533c6$d06a5d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <26c11a6405032811106dabb876@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:49:02 -0500, John Allain wrote: > Since you last asked the question I was able to find one of the following > DSSI cables: BC22Q-09. > It connects from the "old style" DSSI to the newer one. I don't believe that > SCSI (as you have mentioned) can be addressed on a DSSI system > without active electronics Should of been more clear, they are disk packs which have scsi-->dssi boards in them. What you may be referring to is that some > DEC made some RF/RZ drives, which could speak both protocols. > > > I need a couple of cables to connect to a 4000, can anyone help > > You can enter "BC22Q" into the search-engines. > > John A. > > I was looking at this website. http://www.seadec.com/iqBCcables_1.html The cable I have is a bc29s-06, this has 2 identical connectors at each end, they are called hsd cables on this website. That it what I need for the storage rack. The other end needs to go into a 4000. The connector you suggested is label on there as an sf 200 cable. Is this the same as hsd ? Thanks Dan From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 28 13:14:55 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:14:55 -0800 Subject: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch In-Reply-To: <42485320.8000501@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050328191454.0678C2C00B@pail.bensene.com> Hi, All, I've got a DEC PC04 punched tape reader/punch that I've been working on getting running on my PDP 8/e. The punch seems to work well. The reader, on the other hand, has a problem. The 2^2 bit is always stuck low. So, I started tracing things down, and found that the phototransistor in the read head at that bit position is 'dead'. Problem is, the reader uses an array of 10 phototransistors, (8 for data holes, one for sprocket hole detection, and the last for detecting an "out of tape" condition) arranged in a linear array with 0.10 spacing, with built in lens bubbles. There's no way to substitute just the one failed phototransistor. I can't find anyone online that has anything similar to this array avaialble. I'm hoping someone out there has experienced a similar situation, and may have some ideas as to how I can get the reader working 100% again. I want to run all of the MAINDEC diagnostic tapes on the CPU, but it's tough without the reader. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Mar 28 13:36:33 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:36:33 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? In-Reply-To: <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> <32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050328143325.03297210@pop-server> I have the opportunity to purchase a TRS-80 Model III computer. It looks very good, has two 5-1/4" floppies and (she says) worked the last time it was turned on. She is asking $50. Is that a fair price? What should it be worth? From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 28 13:46:45 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:46:45 -0500 Subject: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch References: <20050328191454.0678C2C00B@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <006801c533ce$dfa32de0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Rick, see if you can track down the schematics and verify that it's actually the photo-transistor element that's dead. It could merely be a loose wire, or a bad component in the buffer/amplifier comparator/filters in each of the channels. The surest way to be sure would be to put a scope right on the lead of the sensor array's output. Typically phototransistor would be pulled up to +V supply by a resistor and optionally biased by another resistor on the base. Check those two resistors and the make sure nothing is shorting the collector's output - then trace that bit back all the way to the interface buffer to the omnibus. good luck! -h Rick Bensene wrote: > I've got a DEC PC04 punched tape reader/punch that I've been working > on getting running on my PDP 8/e. > > The punch seems to work well. > > The reader, on the other hand, has a problem. The 2^2 bit is always stuck > low. So, I started tracing things down, and found that the phototransistor > in the read head at that bit position is 'dead'. > > Problem is, the reader uses an array of 10 phototransistors, (8 for data > holes, > one for sprocket hole detection, and the last for detecting an "out of tape" > condition) > arranged in a linear array with 0.10 spacing, with built in lens bubbles. > There's no way to substitute just the one failed phototransistor. > From news at computercollector.com Mon Mar 28 13:53:40 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (news at computercollector.com) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:53:40 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050328143325.03297210@pop-server> Message-ID: <200503281952.j2SJqtBf004755@dewey.classiccmp.org> Mike Nadeau's book "Collectible Microcomputers" says 25-75, so 50 sounds fair. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Ehrich Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? I have the opportunity to purchase a TRS-80 Model III computer. It looks very good, has two 5-1/4" floppies and (she says) worked the last time it was turned on. She is asking $50. Is that a fair price? What should it be worth? From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 14:07:14 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:07:14 -0500 Subject: DEC/CMD QBUS CQD-223/T - question about ROMs In-Reply-To: <003801c533b8$9c270890$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050328111215.00abc8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <003801c533b8$9c270890$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:07:23 -0500, Heinz Wolter wrote: > anyone have both a CQD-223/T and CQD-223/M or CQD-223/MT ? > are they the same boards with only different ROMS/EPROMS? > Makes sense to have the same hardware and enable TSCP, MSCP > based on model/options or different firmware. Anybody know? > thanks -h > I bought a CQD-243/T and plan to replace the EPROM to make a fortune. The problem is that I don't have the CQD-243/M or MT. vax, 9000 From ericj at speakeasy.org Mon Mar 28 14:08:51 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Dan Williams wrote: > I might have asked this on here before a while back..... > But does anyone on here have any dssi-->hsd cables. I've got a storage > rack which has the potential to be 12x9gb scsi storage for my > vaxcluster. But I have the wrong cables. The cables I have go between > (I think) 2 hsd devices. I need a couple of cables to connect to a > 4000, can anyone help. If you're referring to BC29R cables I ordered some last month from www.seadec.com at about $75 each, which was the best price I'd found. I used them for (hsd05 <-> vax 4000) and (hsd05 <-> uvax 3800). >From the cables reference guide at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html it looks like the difference between the BC29R and the BC22Q is that the BC22Q has a straight connector on the micro-ribbon side whereas the BC29R has a right-angle connector. I have no BC22Q cables so I can't check. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 14:11:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <45338.207.145.53.202.1112040698.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jules wrote: > Just to confirm - Zilog parts labelled Z0853006PSC (SCC) are the same as > AMD part AM8250H-6 ? (I would think so) No. I wasn't aware that AMD had ever made the 8250, but if they did, it's definitely not equivalent to a Z8530. The AMD equivalent is the Am8530, though there are also improved variants like the Am9530H and Am85230. The 8250 is a single serial port chip which was used in the early IBM PCs and compatibles. Later it was replaced by the 16450, 16550, and 16550A. Eric From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 28 14:12:01 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:12:01 -0800 Subject: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch In-Reply-To: <006801c533ce$dfa32de0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <20050328201200.E120E2C00A@pail.bensene.com> I have verified that the phototransistor element itself is dead. Everything else through the interface to the Omnibus is fine. I've even swapped the wiring at the phototransistor array so that a different channel of the amplifier board was hooked up to the phototransistor, and it was still dead. It seems odd that a phototransistor would fail, but it's pretty clear at this point that it is, which puts me in the bind of trying to find another phototransistor array. Thanks for the help, though. -Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Heinz Wolter > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch > > Rick, see if you can track down the schematics and verify > that it's actually the photo-transistor element that's dead. > It could merely be a loose wire, or a bad component in the > buffer/amplifier comparator/filters in each of the channels. > The surest way to be sure would be to put a scope right on > the lead of the sensor array's output. > Typically phototransistor would be pulled up to +V supply by > a resistor and optionally biased by another resistor on the > base. Check those two resistors and the make sure nothing is > shorting the collector's output - then trace that bit back > all the way to the interface buffer to the omnibus. > good luck! -h > > Rick Bensene wrote: > > I've got a DEC PC04 punched tape reader/punch that I've > been working > > on getting running on my PDP 8/e. > > > > The punch seems to work well. > > > > The reader, on the other hand, has a problem. The 2^2 bit > is always > > stuck low. So, I started tracing things down, and found that the > phototransistor > > in the read head at that bit position is 'dead'. > > > > Problem is, the reader uses an array of 10 phototransistors, (8 for > > data holes, one for sprocket hole detection, and the last for > > detecting an "out of > tape" > > condition) > > arranged in a linear array with 0.10 spacing, with built in > lens bubbles. > > There's no way to substitute just the one failed phototransistor. > > > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 14:38:18 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:38:18 +0100 Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a64050328123813bc3ebb@mail.gmail.com> > If you're referring to BC29R cables I ordered some last month from > www.seadec.com at about $75 each, which was the best price I'd found. > I used them for (hsd05 <-> vax 4000) and (hsd05 <-> uvax 3800). > > >From the cables reference guide at > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html > it looks like the difference between the BC29R and the BC22Q is > that the BC22Q has a straight connector on the micro-ribbon side whereas > the BC29R has a right-angle connector. I have no BC22Q cables so I can't > check. > > Yep that's the cable I want. If anyone needs any bc29s cables these are vax 6000/7000/10000 to a hsd controller. I have 6 surplus. I'll see if I can find some in the UK now I know what I am looking for. Thanks Dan From classiccmp at ultra-gonzos.de Mon Mar 28 13:48:17 2005 From: classiccmp at ultra-gonzos.de (Florian Mayer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:48:17 +0200 Subject: Bell + Howell IDB 2000 Message-ID: <42485F81.8040400@ultra-gonzos.de> Hi folks, I recently aquired a Bell and Howell IDB 2000 system with three workstations. The boot/data CDROMs (9) came with it. It seems that it is an early network computing system. The computing power is in the workstations, but they do not have any drives. They have to boot from the fileserver. The fileserver starts up but the workstations won't boot. I hooked up a laptop with a sniffer software into the Bell and Howell network (standard Ethernet). The workstation sends a kind of request (propietary, not even TCP/IP) but does not get a reply. I hooked up a serial terminal to the console of the server and got a menu system. The interesting menus (system administration, configuration etc.) are protected with a password. The password has to be standard because the server boots from a pressed cdrom. Does anybody have expieriences with these computers? p.s. One of the worksations has the label Siemens EPC 2000, but looks the same as the Bell + Howell. best regards Flori From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Mar 28 14:50:30 2005 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (R. F. Schaefer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:50:30 -0500 Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> Witchy wrote: >>I might have asked this on here before a while back..... >>But does anyone on here have any dssi-->hsd cables. I've got a storage >>rack which has the potential to be 12x9gb scsi storage for my >>vaxcluster. But I have the wrong cables. The cables I have go between >>(I think) 2 hsd devices. I need a couple of cables to connect to a >>4000, can anyone help. > > > I might have - can you give me part numbers? I know I rescued a lot of > DSSI stuff in the past but they might not have the right ends..... Think you might have something that starts out `BC21M-'? I'm pretty sure that's what I need to connect an RX400 to a VAX 4200, the second part is just the length. > > cheers > Bob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 28 14:56:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:56:43 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <45338.207.145.53.202.1112040698.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <45338.207.145.53.202.1112040698.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1112043403.8423.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 12:11 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Jules wrote: > > Just to confirm - Zilog parts labelled Z0853006PSC (SCC) are the same as > > AMD part AM8250H-6 ? (I would think so) > > No. I wasn't aware that AMD had ever made the 8250, but if they did, > it's definitely not equivalent to a Z8530. The AMD equivalent is > the Am8530, Argh! I meant the AM8530 - got a brain full of different chip numbers at the moment :-( Anyway, you told me what I wanted to know, even if I didn't ask properly ;) I've found I've got *one* Zilog 8530 in my box of spares... but it doesn't have any kind of speed rating on it (which may mean it's only 4MHz). Still, I'll take the dead AMD one off the Sun board, stick a socket on there and give this found one a try. If not I'll have to desolder a good 6MHz Zilog chip from the Sun comms board and use that... cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Mar 28 15:01:56 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:01:56 -0500 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> It got dropped off this afternoon -- Now I actually have to learn about the durned thing... ;-) It's SCSI (of course) with a 2G hard drive & CD-ROM reader ( I have a 2x burner that may work well in it...) -- it has an S3-Virge based VGA card with what appears to be 2 outputs; it's weird as it seems to be a 2-piece card with one interface on each card, and each card plugging into 1/2 of a Zorro slot (At least that's what I assume they are...) and the cards have a small bridge-cable between them. It might be a CyberVision 64/3D based on the description of that board, but I'm not sure, as it has no picture. It's got the stock A3640 processor card, but I do not know the speed of the CPU as it's got a heatsink on it -- I'll have to spark 'er up when I get a chance, but that may not be for a couple of weeks or so... All the RAM slots are full, so it would prolly have 16Meg onboard (I'm guessing) - but no extra ZorroIII boards for memory... It also seems to have some onboard video with a DF?23P but no monitor or anything - I'm assuming they did not use that video port. Other than the VGA card, it seems stock or nearly so - most slots are empty, it does not have a network card or modem... ... And Holymygoodness, the sucker's not even ontopic! It was made by "QuikPak Corp." and was made in January of '98!!! :-O So, if you're gonna whack me on the 10-year rule, just unread this message back to the beginning and forget you opened it. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 28 15:01:26 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:01:26 -0600 Subject: one more time... Facit software? Message-ID: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm looking for DOS (or dare I say unix) based software to control my facit N4000 punch. Yes, I can do it all via the front panel, but I'd like to find a copy of wncedit or something - as I understand it that software will start the punch, read in the binary and store it in a file, then burp the file back out to the device at a later time to recreate the tape. If anyone has such software I'd appreciate contact off-list. Otherwise, I'm gonna start writing something. Jay West From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 28 15:00:59 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:00:59 -0500 Subject: Dssi Cables References: Message-ID: <03ce01c533d9$3effd2c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I have no BC22Q cables so I can't check. BC22Q the newer DSSI connector is straight, and will match an SF200/SF7x. the older DSSI connector is rt-angle to fit under the cover of an E.G. uV 3400,3900. I could use a good catalog or other URL to images of all the connector types, but it sounds right. I call the newer DSSI connector, informally, a "mini centronics" and the older a "mini-IDC", if that helps to illustrate at all. John A. From allain at panix.com Mon Mar 28 15:02:45 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:02:45 -0500 Subject: Dssi Cables References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com><1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> Message-ID: <03d401c533d9$7e0c9200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Think you might have something that starts out `BC21M-'? Both ends are the same connector there. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 28 15:08:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sup'R'Mod II docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050328130143.X70545@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 gordt at gordtulloch.com wrote: > I just got an old //e with a Sup'R'Mod II RF modulator - I hooked it up as > expected to the TV (my 3 year old loves Moon Patrol in mono, so I figured > he'll love it more in color ;) but no joy - anyone out there got docs for > this? A scan would be lovely, mail would be fine and compensated. Let me > know, thx! The Sup'R'Mod II was an RF modulator. It has a 4 pin inline berg connector to input composite video and power (as used on Apple ][, IBM CGA, etc.), and has an "RCA Phono" jack for output of UHF video on channel 33. If you have a "modern" TV, with "Video IN", then yank out the RF mod, and connect directly. Do NOT connect the phono of the Sup'R'Mod to the Video input. Otherwise, with an older TV, connect the phono jack of the Sup'R'Mod to the UHF antenna connections of the TV. Tune the TV to UHF channel 33. NOT "cable" 33. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Mar 28 11:27:55 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:27:55 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> Tim Riker wrote: > > From what I hear, the system I used was not one of the TSB series. I'm > still interested in trying it out. I don't see binaries online anywhere. > Can someone point me to them? > > http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/basic1.abs > Files with the "ABS" extension are compiled files. I don't have the ABS documentation in front of me but the format is not very complex. You can download the cross compiler at: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/emulator/hpasm.c (saves files in ABS format) and figure out exactly what the format is. The real trick is getting the file loaded into the HP1000. Depending on which I/O cards and loader ROMS you have, you can load the data either serially or in parallel. When I first started playing with the 1000's I built a Paper Tape Emulator and used it for loading files including HPBASIC. This involved building a parallel interface between my PC and the 1000. It worked OK but, I found it was really clumbsy. So, I went the serial route. To load files serially I wrote a perl script to parse the ABS file and send it as HEX-ASCII to a serial I/O card in the 1000. Since my 1000 already had a loader ROM for a serial data terminal, I didn't have to to do anything on the HP1000 side. If you don't have the serial ROM, you can write a serial I/O routine and toggle it in whenever you want to load the file. If you wanna build hardware, go the parallel route. If you wanna build software, go the serial route. Either way works. SO... Here's an update on my latest tinkerings with the 1000's. How bout a HPIB hard drive that can boot a HP1000 and/or a Z80 STD BUS system and share files between them. That's right, two completely different computers sharing the same HD. Obviously the binaries can't be shared but they can use the same file system and share non-binary files. When completed, I should be able to write a BASIC program on the Z80 system, save it to disk in ASCII format, boot the HP1000 from the same disk, load and run the program... Hmmm... Now If I just had a GPIB card for my linux box ;-) Now that's what I call a DUAL BOOT system! See Yas, SteveRob From andy at erlangerresearch.com Mon Mar 28 11:30:31 2005 From: andy at erlangerresearch.com (Andy Erlanger) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:30:31 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <24071392.1112007709362.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0IE200I9LOMFKO@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Cool - looking into it. Thanks -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Thatcher Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 6:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox 820-II you can buy "brand new" copies of CP/M for the 820 from California Digital. The last time I checked they had gotten rid of most everything except CP/M and a few other things. http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm what their website doesn't mention is that it was for the Xerox 820 and it is 5 1/4" format. I don't know about compatibility between individual Xerox machines though. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Andy Erlanger Sent: Mar 27, 2005 2:24 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Xerox 820-II (Previously posted in html, my apologies). I'm going to be bidding on a system with 5.25" drives, so I guess that's what I'd need, even though I think the 8" drives are cooler. Thanks, Andy From Tim at rikers.org Mon Mar 28 13:43:45 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:43:45 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <42485E71.2000105@Rikers.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > Files with the "ABS" extension are compiled files. I don't have the ABS > documentation in front of me but the format is not very complex. You can > download the cross compiler at: > http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/emulator/hpasm.c (saves files in ABS > format) and figure out exactly what the format is. Thanx, I posted later on that I used the perl assember here: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/asm21/ and got it assembled. The C version above did not work well for me. > > The real trick is getting the file loaded into the HP1000. Depending on > which I/O cards and loader ROMS you have, you can load the data either > serially or in parallel. actually I'm using simh at this point. loading the "tape" was no problem at all. Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the tty port number info. Does it just want a slot number? looks like simh defaults to tty in slot 11, but I don't understand what the code is looking for: PTSBS CLC 0 TURN OFF ALL DEVICES LIA 1 LOAD I/O ADDRESS OF TTY AND .63 MASK TO LOWER 6-BITS STA B PUT ADDRESS IN B-REGISTER ARS,ARS SHIFT TO BITS (5-3) ARS SZA I/O ADDRESS >7? JMP ZGO YES-INITIALIZE PREPARE BASIC TTY * HLT 55B INVALID I/O ADDRESS HALT JMP PTSBS TRY AGAIN more info on the wiki page: http://rikers.org/wiki/FirstComputer -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From James at jdfogg.com Mon Mar 28 15:44:49 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:44:49 -0500 Subject: Bubble memory board Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E4F@sbs.jdfogg.com> > >I've got photos of the board at > >http://decodesystems.com/help-wanted/bubble-memory-board.html > > > >Does anyone have any documentation and/or drivers for this board? In your help wanted section, the Executone cards. Are you aware that these are a part of a phone system? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 28 15:48:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:48:59 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> <42485E71.2000105@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000601c533df$f325c6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote... > and got it assembled. The C version above did not work well for me. The C version on taurus has some problems. The perl version works well, so I'm echoing your experience. > Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the tty > port number info. Does it just want a slot number? It wants the slot number enteres in the S register (LIA is an I/O from the switch register). The fact they are masking to the lower six bits tells me to set S register bits 5-0 to the select code of the tty. Jay West From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 15:55:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:55:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jay wrote: > I'm looking for DOS (or dare I say unix) based software to control my > facit N4000 punch. Yes, I can do it all via the front panel, but I'd like > to find a copy of wncedit or something - as I understand it that software > will start the punch, read in the binary and store it in a file, then burp > the file back out to the device at a later time to recreate the tape. Does that software do some magic that can't be done with cat, cp, or dd? On the PDP-1 project, we're using a DSI Reader/Punch on loan from Al Kossow. I think it's an NC2400, but I'm not sure. Anyhow, to read a tape, I use a script that does an stty on the serial port to put it in raw mode, RTS/CTS flow control, and 2400 bps, then just does a "cat /dev/ttyS0 >somefile.bin". I start the tape, then hit control-C when it's done reading. To write a tape back out, I use another script that does the same stty but at 300 bps, then does a "cat somefile.bin >/dev/ttyS0". If I want extra leader or trailer, a "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/ttyS0 bs=1 count=120" or the like can be put in the script. I had to use 300 bps for punching because it appears that the Linux serial driver doesn't respond quickly enough to CTS to avoid dropped bytes :-( It works fine at 300 bps, though. [*] I'm sure this is nowhere near as fancy as whatever wncedit does, but it seems to work for me. Is the Facit N4000 so "smart" that it needs more hand-holding or something? Eric [*] Back when I worked at Telebit, we made sure that our products dropped RTS or CTS (depending on which side we were on) well before we ran out of buffer room, because there are *MANY* devices and computers out there that can't quickly respond to RTS or CTS being dropped, and will still send a bunch more bytes. And we also made sure that our own products *would* respond to RTS or CTS being dropped within two character times. But the NC-2400 apparently is not willing to buffer a few extra bytes that dribble in after it drops CTS. :-( From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 28 16:19:50 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:19:50 -0800 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >It got dropped off this afternoon -- Now I actually have to learn >about the durned thing... ;-) Sweet! What version of Amiga OS is it running? Sounds like the main thing you need for it is an accelerator board with RAM expansion capabilities. My lowly A3000 Desktop only has the basic 68030 CPU, 18MB RAM, 4GB HD, Picasso IV Video, and 10Base2 Ethernet. But I've upgraded all the chips, and put Amiga OS 3.9 on it. I must confess I'm very tempted by the new Amiga One's, especially the Mini-ITX board with Amiga OS 4.0, but can't justify the cost since it would only be a toy for me. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 16:20:34 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:20:34 +0100 Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <03d401c533d9$7e0c9200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> <03d401c533d9$7e0c9200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <26c11a6405032814207304a899@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:02:45 -0500, John Allain wrote: > > Think you might have something that starts out `BC21M-'? > > Both ends are the same connector there. > > John A. > > If the 4000/200 has the same dssi connector as a 4000/500. Then that is the right cable. The connectors are the same. I use one for the same purpose. Dan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 28 16:35:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:35:55 -0500 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <013701c533e6$8ac750e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:19 PM Subject: Re: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! > >It got dropped off this afternoon -- Now I actually have to learn > >about the durned thing... ;-) > > Sweet! What version of Amiga OS is it running? Sounds like the main > thing you need for it is an accelerator board with RAM expansion > capabilities. > > My lowly A3000 Desktop only has the basic 68030 CPU, 18MB RAM, 4GB > HD, Picasso IV Video, and 10Base2 Ethernet. But I've upgraded all > the chips, and put Amiga OS 3.9 on it. > > I must confess I'm very tempted by the new Amiga One's, especially > the Mini-ITX board with Amiga OS 4.0, but can't justify the cost > since it would only be a toy for me. > > Zane > > > -- > -- My fastest Amiga is my A1200 With 68030/50 FPU and 18MB ram. The system boots from the internal 3.2GB drive in a few seconds. OS 3.0 isn't too bad either. I use them mostly for gaming and to play around with their OS. I was surprised how speedy my a12000 was (just a 7mhz 68000). From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 28 16:52:31 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:52:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> Message-ID: <4599.192.168.0.3.1112050351.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> I might have - can you give me part numbers? I know I rescued a lot of >> DSSI stuff in the past but they might not have the right ends..... > > Think you might have something that starts out `BC21M-'? I'm pretty > sure that's what I need to connect an RX400 to a VAX 4200, the second > part is just the length. I'm thinking you mean an R400X DSSI expansion box, if so then yep I can do one of those. If you send me some contact details off-list we can sort something out. cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 28 16:56:39 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:56:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4661.192.168.0.3.1112050599.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > It got dropped off this afternoon -- Now I actually have to learn about > the > durned thing... ;-) I am all of the jealous and I'm still kicking myself for passing over a 4000-030 several years ago because it didn't have a keyboard :-\ It was only 15 english pounds as well...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 28 17:00:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:00:22 -0800 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! In-Reply-To: <013701c533e6$8ac750e0$0500fea9@game> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> <013701c533e6$8ac750e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0500 3/28/05, Teo Zenios wrote: >My fastest Amiga is my A1200 With 68030/50 FPU and 18MB ram. The system >boots from the internal 3.2GB drive in a few seconds. OS 3.0 isn't too bad >either. I use them mostly for gaming and to play around with their OS. I was >surprised how speedy my a12000 was (just a 7mhz 68000). Actually a base A1200 would be a 680EC20 running at 14Mhz. The A500 was a 7Mhz 68000, and at least with the base Amiga OS 1.x, it's surprisingly fast, even off of floppy. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Mar 28 17:19:18 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:19:18 -0500 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> <013701c533e6$8ac750e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <015201c533ec$911d4480$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 6:00 PM Subject: Re: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! > At 5:35 PM -0500 3/28/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > >My fastest Amiga is my A1200 With 68030/50 FPU and 18MB ram. The system > >boots from the internal 3.2GB drive in a few seconds. OS 3.0 isn't too bad > >either. I use them mostly for gaming and to play around with their OS. I was > >surprised how speedy my a12000 was (just a 7mhz 68000). > > Actually a base A1200 would be a 680EC20 running at 14Mhz. The A500 > was a 7Mhz 68000, and at least with the base Amiga OS 1.x, it's > surprisingly fast, even off of floppy. > > Zane > > > -- A typo, was referring to the A2000 at 7mhz ( recently upgraded to a 68030/40 GVP board), it has OS 1.3 while the A1200 has 3.0. One of these days I need to get ahold of some 2.0 roms for the 2000. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Mar 28 17:41:24 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:41:24 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050328143325.03297210@pop-server> References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org> <32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <6.2.1.2.2.20050328143325.03297210@pop-server> Message-ID: <42489624.9080706@pacbell.net> Gene Ehrich wrote: > I have the opportunity to purchase a TRS-80 Model III computer. It looks > very good, has two 5-1/4" floppies and (she says) worked the last time > it was turned on. > > She is asking $50. > > Is that a fair price? > > What should it be worth? > > > I tried to sell a perfectly good model 4 without any discoloration and all keys, no burn in for $40 at VCF a couple years ago and it didn't sell. On the other hand, I've seen them go for close to $100 on ebay at times. $50 isn't unfair. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 28 17:48:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question Message-ID: MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a need to put more than this. Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? Some sort of patch or utility? Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the root? Another question: When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: drive to a network drive. At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. Does anyone know how to accomplish this? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From river at zip.com.au Mon Mar 28 17:52:31 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:52:31 +1000 Subject: Help! SC/MP Programming Question Message-ID: <00e001c533f1$3ad80e20$9021083d@river> Hi, I have a small issue with printing out the ASCII char set, from $20 to $7E inclusive. The 8251 initialisation is okay 'cos I ran a small program to print a single char to the TTY and it worked fine. So, I thought I'd expand on this to transmit the printable ASCII char set to the TTY (actually, Hyperterm). However, it jusat transmits spaces. I've tried a few variations and it never prints the chars properly. I'm figuring that there is a problem with my logic, but as I don't have a SC/MP programming manual and I can't see the forest due to the trees, I'm hoping someone here on this list with some SC/MP programming knowledge maybe able to offer some assistance. The P1 register is pointing to the 8251 data port, and 1(1) points it to the control/status port. ktest: ldi $20 ;First char is ASCII 'space' kt1: xae ;temp save in E-reg/exchange the A and E regs kt2: ld 1(1) ;get UART status ani $01 ;Tx Ready? jz kt2 ;No, keep checking lde ;Yes, get char st (1) ;Tx the char scl ;carry = 1 adi $00 ;add 0 + carry xae ;save to E reg lde ;move back to A reg xri $7f ;gone too far? jz ktest ;yes, start at SPACE again jmp kt1 ;no, print it Basically, I load the A reg with ASCII $20 (SPACE) and save it to the E reg. Then I check the 8251 TX Ready flag and when ready I get the ASCII char from the E reg and transmit it. The char is still in the A reg after the transmission, so I set the carry bit and add $00 (ie incrementing the A reg). I then save this value in the E reg and then load it back to the A reg - thereby both A and E regs have the same value. I then check if I have hit the end by destroying the A reg with the XRI instruction. If I haven't hit the end ($7F) yet, I go back to "kt1", whcih relaods the A reg with the char and then it goes on to print this char. If it's at the end then it goes back to "ktest" to start back at ASCII $20 and does it over again. I've done this heaps of time with the 8080 processors and don't know why it's not doing it with the SC/MP. Also, I have some SC/MP listings about and one of them has "LD @0(P2)" instruction. >From what I know, and this maybe totally wrong, the "@" is an auto-increment/auto- decrement bit and you must specify the displacement for the inc/dec. If this is the case, then what does the "0" that immediately follows the "@" do? I would expect to see a value other than "0" to ensure the P2 register is inc/dec by the appropriate amount. Please, old SC/MP dudes, any help would be greatly appreciated. river From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 28 17:58:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... Message-ID: <200503282358.PAA03121@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bill Girnius" > >It's not entirely out of the question, after all, how many of you have the >knowledge of metalurgy to make any metal tool from say... the Bronze age, or >Iron, or make gun powder, sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain the >raw materials, and build the contraption that they used to make it? Let me see, volcanic vent for the yellow stuff. Fireplace for the black stuff. Need some horses and some soil with a high potassium content for the white stuff. Nothing real difficult. I think in a pinch ( with my car ) I could find these things. Still, it is true that as technology gets more complicated, it takes quite a few people with knowledge in specific areas to create the complete item. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 18:06:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:06:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64775.207.145.53.202.1112054806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Sellam wrote: > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > need to put more than this. Hey! Weren't you one of the people complaining that cctalk isn't a PC support forum? Anyhow, I think you can do it if you use something other than the DOS format command to create the filesystem. For instance, with the Linux utility "mkdosfs", you can specify "-r root-dir-entries". The man page says that the default is 112 or 224 for floppies, and 512 for hard disks. It doesn't say anything about what the upper limit might be. I just tried it using a floppy image file rather than a real floppy disk. I created the image file like this: $ dd if=/dev/zero of=floppy.img bs=1024 count=1440 1440+0 records in 1440+0 records out First I tried the default format: $ /sbin/mkdosfs -v floppy.img mkdosfs 2.8 (28 Feb 2001) floppy.img has 2 heads and 18 sectors per track, logical sector size is 512, using 0xf0 media descriptor, with 2880 sectors; file system has 2 12-bit FATs and 1 sector per cluster. FAT size is 9 sectors, and provides 2847 clusters. Root directory contains 224 slots. Volume ID is 42489a44, no volume label. The I tried using the "-r" option to specify more root directory entries: $ /sbin/mkdosfs -v -r 1024 floppy.img mkdosfs 2.8 (28 Feb 2001) floppy.img has 2 heads and 18 sectors per track, logical sector size is 512, using 0xf0 media descriptor, with 2880 sectors; file system has 2 12-bit FATs and 1 sector per cluster. FAT size is 9 sectors, and provides 2797 clusters. Root directory contains 1024 slots. Volume ID is 42489a4e, no volume label. I don't have a real blank floppy disk handy to test, so I did the next best thing. I mounted the image as a virtual drive A with VMware. Windows XP sees it as a floppy just fine. In a Linux directory that is exported as a Samba share, I created 676 files that each contain one byte: $ dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=676 | split -b 1 676+0 records in 676+0 records out In Windows, I copied the 676 files to the A drive. It worked fine. So Windows XP apparently can deal with a floppy with a root directory larger than 512 entries, if you can create one somehow. If you aren't able to run the Linux mkdosfs command yourself, I can send you a ZIP file containing an otherwise empty floppy image created as described above, and you can use rawrite.exe or equivalent to write it onto a real floppy disk. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 18:13:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:13:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <64775.207.145.53.202.1112054806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <64775.207.145.53.202.1112054806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <65420.207.145.53.202.1112055216.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote about Linux mkdosfs on a 1440K floppy: > It doesn't say anything about what the upper limit might be. It appears that the practical upper bound is 2694 directory entries, which leaves 2694 clusters available for allocation to files. Any more directory entries, and you wind up with fewer clusters than directory entries, thus you can't have all of the directory entries actually in use for non-zero-length files. On the other hand, due to the volume label, and the use of multiple directory entries to represent long file names, more than 2694 directory entries might actually be useful. I can't really imagine why anyone would want that many files in a single root directory on a floppy disk, though. Eric From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Mar 28 18:23:52 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:23:52 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328182300.0b86d360@localhost> Why can't you create a subdirectory? If you fudge it somehow, chkdsk will say that it's broken and offer to fix it. At 03:48 PM 3/28/2005 -0800, you wrote: >MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a >need to put more than this. > >Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? >Some sort of patch or utility? > >Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the >root? > >Another question: > >When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute >the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I >might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: >drive to a network drive. > >At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file >entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > >Does anyone know how to accomplish this? > >Thanks! > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." -- Sir Winston Churchill --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 18:44:55 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:44:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328182300.0b86d360@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328182300.0b86d360@localhost> Message-ID: <36386.207.145.53.202.1112057095.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tom wrote: > If you fudge it somehow, chkdsk will > say that it's broken and offer to fix it. Wanna bet? I "fudged it somehow" using the Linux mkdosfs utility. Here's the output from Windows XP chkdsk: The type of the file system is FAT. Volume Serial Number is 4248-9A4E Windows is verifying files and folders... 6 percent completed. .... 12 percent completed. 19 percent completed. 25 percent completed.. 32 percent completed.. 38 percent completed... 44 percent completed... 51 percent completed... 57 percent completed.... 64 percent completed.... 70 percent completed..... 76 percent completed..... 83 percent completed..... 89 percent completed...... 96 percent completed...... File and folder verification is complete. Windows has checked the file system and found no problems. 1,432,064 bytes total disk space. 346,112 bytes in 676 files. 1,085,952 bytes available on disk. 512 bytes in each allocation unit. 2,797 total allocation units on disk. 2,121 allocation units available on disk. I suppose it's possible that earlier versions of MS-DOS chkdsk could complain, but I doubt that they do. The on-disk structures are all correct according to Microsoft's published documentation on the FAT file system format. In the olden days (DOS 2.x), OEMs were *expected* to define new disk geometries, etc., so it's not surprising that the code is smart enough to use the parameters in the boot block, and follow the FAT chain for the root directory, rather than actually having a hard-coded constant. It's just the format command that is somewhat inflexible. Eric From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Mar 28 18:55:26 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:55:26 EST Subject: Bell + Howell IDB 2000 Message-ID: <8d.23de021d.2f7a017e@aol.com> In a message dated 3/28/2005 3:49:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, classiccmp at ultra-gonzos.de writes: I recently aquired a Bell and Howell IDB 2000 system with three workstations. Sounds interesting. I work at B+H (now Bowe Bell + Howell) and never heard of it. I'll ask around. -- I am not willing to give up my liberties for the false promise of 'security' or, in other words, go check out www.bordc.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 28 19:29:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:29:44 -0600 Subject: one more time... Facit software? References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote... > Does that software do some magic that can't be done with cat, cp, or dd? Nope, not at all. Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. I figured there was already apps to do this... but in a pinch I have done just what you said. Jay From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 20:04:51 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:04:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jay wrote: > Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that > would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin > to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. I use Emacs Hexl-mode for that. I've thought about compiling GNOME Hex Editor (ghex), but never have gotten around to it: http://library.n0i.net/linux-unix/applications/x/gnome/ghex/ I haven't tried DataWorkshop (written in Java), but it looks pretty nice: http://www.dataworkshop.de/ Maybe it would be reasonable to add paper-tape support to one of those. A search for "hex editor" on freshmeat.net turns up quite a few other programs as well, including at least four GPL'd text/curses-based editors. Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Mar 28 20:09:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: another ebay great Message-ID: <200503290209.SAA03141@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I just saw someone auctioning a motorola MC4004. I suspect that some will think it is an Intel 4004 but I guess they'll soon find out that it is just a simple cmos part. Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Mar 28 20:19:25 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:19:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: another ebay great In-Reply-To: <200503290209.SAA03141@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > I just saw someone auctioning a motorola > MC4004. I suspect that some will think it is > an Intel 4004 but I guess they'll soon > find out that it is just a simple cmos part. MTTL, not CMOS. MC4004s are not fun to find. Real Motorola CMOS adds a 1 before the 4000. Still, not a processor. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 28 20:27:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:27:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: another ebay great In-Reply-To: <200503290209.SAA03141@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503290209.SAA03141@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <43824.207.145.53.202.1112063220.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Dwight wrote: > I just saw someone auctioning a motorola > MC4004. I suspect that some will think it is > an Intel 4004 but I guess they'll soon > find out that it is just a simple cmos part. Even if they did expect a simple CMOS part, they'll still be disappointed, because the MC4004 is a TTL part! Motorola had a 4000 series of TTL parts before the SN7400 series became established. So when they introduced their equivalent of the RCA CD4000 series CMOS, they called it the MC14000 series. I can't find any reference to a CD4004 at the moment, but if there was one, and Motorola made an equivalent, they would have called it an MC14004. I've seen this problem occur more often when someone wants a CD4024 and gets an MC4024, or vice versa. The former is seven stage binary counter, but the latter is a dual VCO. Eric From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Mar 28 20:30:37 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:30:37 -0500 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <000b01c53407$4c46f020$0100a8c0@screamer> 2114's top out at 8 K words. As far as I can tell, there never was a 2114C shipped. Both A's and B's came stock with 4K, and 8K was an option ( very common on the B's). Also 2114A's don't have DMA, but B's do, but only a single channel. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: another hp2100 wannabe >I wrote about HP 2000 Time Shared BASIC: >> 2000A only uses a single CPU, as did 2000B and 2000E. > > Jay wrote: >> Actually, 2000A and 2000E were the single cpu versions. 2000B was >> definitely a dual cpu configuration, sold at least initially on a 2116 >> for the main cpu and a 2114 for the "I/O processor". > > Oops, you're right. My own web page has the correct info, but my > memory is terrible. > > Tim wrote: >>>> Perhaps it could have been an hp-2114c running ACCESS 2000E? > > I wrote: >>> I'm not sure whether 2000E would run on a 2114 > and Jay wrote: >> I'm not sure 2000E would run on a 2114. It just might. > > Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, > because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point > microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. > > How much memory can a 2114 be equipped with? That's another potential > problem with trying to use a 2114 for either 2000A or 2000E, or as a > system processor for the dual-processor versions. The 2114 might also > be short on I/O slots, though it has enough to be an I/O processor > for 2000B and 2000C. > > Eric > > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Mar 28 20:32:57 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:32:57 -0500 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000f01c53407$9f7d94b0$0100a8c0@screamer> The 2114 was my first vintage HP, and still has my favorite front panel of any HP mini, the touch sensitive front panel really light my fire. No floating point, no microcode of any form actually, just random logic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 10:58 PM Subject: Re: another hp2100 wannabe > Eric wrote... >> Oops, you're right. My own web page has the correct info, but my >> memory is terrible. > My memory is worse, I had to go dig through manuals to know. My mental run > queue is only about 3 entries deep these days :) > >> Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, >> because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point >> microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. > Aha, but there WAS floating point available for the 2116. A separate > rackmount box. I have no clue if it had the same interface as the later FP > options. > >> How much memory can a 2114 be equipped with? That's another potential >> problem with trying to use a 2114 for either 2000A or 2000E, or as a >> system processor for the dual-processor versions. The 2114 might also >> be short on I/O slots, though it has enough to be an I/O processor >> for 2000B and 2000C. > Very good points. I'm not going to dig up the answers unless someone has a > 2114 they are trying to get running ;) > > Jay > > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Mar 28 20:35:13 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:35:13 -0500 Subject: another hp2100 wannabe References: <4245AD19.1030702@Rikers.org><32921.64.169.63.74.1111953417.squirrel@64.169.63.74><008601c53331$80df9e80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><33965.64.169.63.74.1111981157.squirrel@64.169.63.74><002a01c5334a$579f47a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <34081.64.169.63.74.1111983923.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <001301c53407$f045f860$0100a8c0@screamer> F-series floating point op-codes are unique to F-series machines. But all 21MX class machines have slower floating point instructions that use the same op codes as the 2100 floating point option. I suspect that this is what 2000/Access would be using. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:25 PM Subject: Re: another hp2100 wannabe >I wrote: >> Now that I think about it more, I'm fairly certain that it won't, >> because 2000E (and 2000F and 2000/Access) require the floating point >> microcode that is not available for the 2114/2115/2116. > > Jay wrote: >> Aha, but there WAS floating point available for the 2116. A separate >> rackmount box. I have no clue if it had the same interface as the later >> FP >> options. > > But I wrote "require the floating point *microcode*" (emphasis added). > The 2152A floating point processor would not work with any version > of TSB. > > I *think* a 21MX F-series (with hardware floating point) could probably > be used as the system processor for 2000E, 2000F, or 2000/Access, but I > don't have proof. > > I just cleaned up my 2000 TSB model comparison chart a bit, though it > may still have some errors. It can be seen at: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/hp/2000/models.html > > Eric > > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Mar 28 20:40:42 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:40:42 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> <42485E71.2000105@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <001e01c53408$b4c3a2f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Be careful with HPASM, its very broken! It does not parse combined opcodes correctly at all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: hp2114 basic > Steve Robertson wrote: >> Files with the "ABS" extension are compiled files. I don't have the ABS >> documentation in front of me but the format is not very complex. You can >> download the cross compiler at: >> http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/emulator/hpasm.c (saves files in ABS >> format) and figure out exactly what the format is. > > Thanx, I posted later on that I used the perl assember here: > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/asm21/ > > and got it assembled. The C version above did not work well for me. > >> >> The real trick is getting the file loaded into the HP1000. Depending on >> which I/O cards and loader ROMS you have, you can load the data either >> serially or in parallel. > > actually I'm using simh at this point. loading the "tape" was no problem > at all. > > Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the > tty port number info. Does it just want a slot number? looks like simh > defaults to tty in slot 11, but I don't understand what the code is > looking for: > > PTSBS CLC 0 TURN OFF ALL DEVICES > LIA 1 LOAD I/O ADDRESS OF TTY > AND .63 MASK TO LOWER 6-BITS > STA B PUT ADDRESS IN B-REGISTER > ARS,ARS SHIFT TO BITS (5-3) > ARS > SZA I/O ADDRESS >7? > JMP ZGO YES-INITIALIZE PREPARE BASIC TTY > * > HLT 55B INVALID I/O ADDRESS HALT > JMP PTSBS TRY AGAIN > > more info on the wiki page: > > http://rikers.org/wiki/FirstComputer > > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Mar 28 20:41:56 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:41:56 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com><42485E71.2000105@Rikers.org> <000601c533df$f325c6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002201c53408$e09a04a0$0100a8c0@screamer> The bootstrap wants the I/O slot number in bits 11 thru 6. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 4:48 PM Subject: Re: hp2114 basic > Tim wrote... >> and got it assembled. The C version above did not work well for me. > The C version on taurus has some problems. The perl version works well, so > I'm echoing your experience. > >> Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the tty >> port number info. Does it just want a slot number? > It wants the slot number enteres in the S register (LIA is an I/O from the > switch register). The fact they are masking to the lower six bits tells me > to set S register bits 5-0 to the select code of the tty. > > Jay West > > From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Mar 28 20:54:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:54:07 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4248C34F.90604@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > need to put more than this. I seem to remember that the limit is actually 224. > Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? > Some sort of patch or utility? Nope. But 224 isn't an unreasonable limit because even on a 1.44MB each file would be limited to no more than about 6K-7K apiece. > Another question: > > When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute > the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I > might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: > drive to a network drive. Checking 6.22 right here... works fine (I did "subst d: c:\"). So yes, you can. > At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file > entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. SUBST won't help you do this unless you don't use a floppy at all, like: subst a: c:\temp ...which works fine. My question is: Why? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Mar 28 15:41:41 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:41:41 +0100 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Just to confirm - Zilog parts labelled Z0853006PSC (SCC) are the same as > AMD part AM8250H-6 ? (I would think so) No, the AMD part is an Am8530. The 8250 is something different. > I've identified whch of the three on the board is responsible for the > console port (and faulty). However, I've got a Sun "Comm Processor II" > board in a Sun 3/150 which has eight of the Zilog ICs on board. We don't > need that many ports for anything, so I'm tempted to do a swap (if I > don't find a surplus AMD chip in my spares bin). I have four Z8530APC chips here, if you want one. > Earlier I cut the A/-B track (which selects which of the two ports on > the SCC chip to use) and diverted it via an inverter, so that when the > Sun 4/330 thought it was accessing the console port it was actually was > using the second serial line - hooked up the physical console to the > second port then, but no change in the garbled output. No change? That's odd. > So basically that > confirms the the SCC chip is broken, and that the parallel - serial > conversion is common to both ports on the chip (which is > understandable). Erm, no the serial/parallel conversion isn't common to both ports on the chip. If it was, you wouldn't be able to set the two ports to different baud rates, for example. The two channels of the 8530 are completely separate. This implies that some buffer chip that feeds to 8530 is faulty. It may be a 74LS244, and 74LS245 or something similar. Try to trace bit 6 of the 8530's data bus back to a buffer. > Time to get the desoldering equipment out I think... Not so fast! Check that buffer first! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 28 22:05:48 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:05:48 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question References: Message-ID: <019f01c53414$98210be0$2a406b43@66067007> See below. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:48 PM Subject: Obscure DOS question > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > need to put more than this. > > Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? > Some sort of patch or utility? > Use subdirectories. No way in DOS to get around the root limit. There are no limits, except the available disk space, on the number of files and subdirectories in any other directory. > Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the > root? > > Another question: > > When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute > the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I > might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: > drive to a network drive. > Subst was used to make your "B" drive look like the "A" drive to the computer. "SUBST A:B:\" > At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file > entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > > Does anyone know how to accomplish this? > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 22:12:40 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:12:40 -0500 Subject: SunOS Help In-Reply-To: <200503272314.SAA17234@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <010c01c5330a$46319030$26406b43@66067007> <6.2.1.2.2.20050327125105.068f4d60@mail.zipcon.net> <200503272314.SAA17234@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:10:14 -0500 (EST), der Mouse wrote: > The Classic is 4m, as is the SS5. At least according to the jwbirdsa > Sun hardware reference as served by sunhelp.org. And according to the classic I have in the other room... :-) > The only sun4c machines listed there: 1, SLC, IPC, 1+, 2, ELC, IPX. That sounds right... Pretty much, the SPARC2 and down (performance-wise) were the sun4c machines. -ethan From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Mar 28 22:56:39 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:56:39 -0500 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <019f01c53414$98210be0$2a406b43@66067007> References: <019f01c53414$98210be0$2a406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <4248E007.9080907@jcwren.com> I wasn't reading the previous posts, but this caught my eye. Tell me why you can't alter the disk parameter block to support more? Up to 65535, by my reckoning. , specifically, offset 11h. Other than possibly DOS 3.3 not having the same layout. --jc Keys wrote: > See below. John > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:48 PM > Subject: Obscure DOS question > > >> >> MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a >> need to put more than this. >> >> Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? >> Some sort of patch or utility? >> > Use subdirectories. No way in DOS to get around the root limit. > There are no limits, except the available disk space, on the number of > files and subdirectories in any other directory. > >> Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the >> root? >> >> Another question: >> >> When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute >> the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I >> might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: >> drive to a network drive. >> > Subst was used to make your "B" drive look like the "A" drive to the > computer. "SUBST A:B:\" > >> At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file >> entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. >> >> Does anyone know how to accomplish this? >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> Festival >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> mputers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> >> > > From roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 01:29:55 2005 From: roger161uk at yahoo.co.uk (Roger Bisson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:29:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fwd: Byte Magazines Message-ID: <20050329072956.86178.qmail@web86910.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Some time ago, I sent the following message to the list regarding a collection of Byte Magazines that I was considering getting rid of. A couple of people did express interest in receiving some of them but I didn't pursue the matter at the time due to workload. However, I'd now like to clear my shelves so if you are interested could you please let me know ... See below for a list of the copies available. Best regards, Roger --- Roger Bisson wrote: > Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:52:16 +0000 (GMT) > From: Roger Bisson > Subject: Byte Magazines > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I have the following issues of Byte Magazine. > > Unfortunately, they take up a fair amount of space > on > my office shelves and, as a result, I am > contemplating > getting rid of them: despite them containing loads > of > good information, I just don't have time for it > anymore :-( > > Anyway, individual copies are available if anybody > has > a collection with missing copies and, I am happy to > send larger numbers of copies to anybody interested > in > them, the only provision is that postage and packing > must be paid, at cost (or thereabouts), by the > receiver. > > If I receive numerous contacts for specific copies > of > magazines, or for specific series I may place the > magazine or series on eBay or another auction site > as > a means to resolving the contention, proceeds going > to > a local old folks home. > > All are in good condition, although clearly some are > in better condition than others. I herewith > enumerate > all copies, as I do not have a complete set - > certain > months/years are missing. > > January 1988 > December 1989 > May 1989 > September 1989 > February 1990 > March 1990 > April 1990 > June 1990 > January 1991 > April 1991 > July-December 1991 > January-November 1992 > January-December 1993 (except February, July and > October) > January-December 1994 > January-December 1995 (except for August) > January-December 1996 > February-December 1997 > January-April 1998 > July 1998 > > Best regards, > > Roger > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 04:55:59 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:55:59 +0800 Subject: Totally OT, but frustrated..... In-Reply-To: <200503282358.PAA03121@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200503282358.PAA03121@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:58:25 -0800 (PST), "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "Bill Girnius" > > > >It's not entirely out of the question, after all, how many of you have the > > >knowledge of metalurgy to make any metal tool from say... the Bronze age, > or > >Iron, or make gun powder, sure you know what's in it, but can you obtain > the > >raw materials, and build the contraption that they used to make it? > > Let me see, volcanic vent for the yellow stuff. Fireplace > for the black stuff. > Need some horses and some soil with a high potassium content > for the white stuff. > Nothing real difficult. I think in a pinch ( with my car ) I > could find these things. > Still, it is true that as technology gets more complicated, > it takes quite a few people with knowledge in specific areas > to create the complete item. > Dwight > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 05:25:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:25:24 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1112095524.9507.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 22:41 +0100, John Honniball wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Earlier I cut the A/-B track (which selects which of the two ports on > > the SCC chip to use) and diverted it via an inverter, so that when the > > Sun 4/330 thought it was accessing the console port it was actually was > > using the second serial line - hooked up the physical console to the > > second port then, but no change in the garbled output. > > No change? That's odd. > > > So basically that > > confirms the the SCC chip is broken, and that the parallel - serial > > conversion is common to both ports on the chip (which is > > understandable). > > Erm, no the serial/parallel conversion isn't common to both ports > on the chip. Hmm... curious. I'd downloaded the datasheet for the chip and it wasn't clear either way so figured I'd try the inverter trick. > This implies that some buffer chip that feeds to 8530 is > faulty. If they are totally seperate channels (no common internal buffering first, say) then yep, it looks that way. There's no buffers immediately by the serial logic, so I'll look further afield. I've only got the board here with me, not the machine, so can't do any work under load conditions - but then I'm pretty sure we don't have any bus extension boards that'd fit this Sun board anyway (it's extremely deep - much more than I've typically seen on machines with a cardcage) cheers Jules From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Mar 29 05:43:01 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:43:01 +1000 Subject: Visiting Bristol UK In-Reply-To: <422B5BCF.6030406@gifford.co.uk> References: <8d853f0ae2ec64383ed835e4f479a4d7@kerberos.davies.net.au> <422B5BCF.6030406@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <877ba67dc39bfd52966d71b887e18d06@kerberos.davies.net.au> John, > Huw Davies wrote: >> Can anyone recommend some Classic Computer related things to do near >> Bristol UK? > > I can suggest a few geeky things (Industrial Museum, Concorde Museum, > various junk shops) but not a great deal specifically Classic > Computing. > Apart from the Stoke Gifford Computer Museum, of course :-) Apologies for not replying earlier - work is just insane right now (worse than normal even). OK, you've given me a list of Bristol based things to do - thank you. I'm guessing you're based in Stoke Gifford :-) I think I'm just down the road (OK, I'm fairly sure given that I'm visiting the HP offices in Bristol). Always up to buying a local a beer (or two). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Mar 29 06:16:22 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:16:22 -0500 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... Message-ID: <20050329121621.FTDB16559.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Erm, no the serial/parallel conversion isn't common to both ports >> on the chip. > >Hmm... curious. I'd downloaded the datasheet for the chip and it wasn't >clear either way so figured I'd try the inverter trick. > >> This implies that some buffer chip that feeds to 8530 is >> faulty. > >If they are totally seperate channels (no common internal buffering >first, say) then yep, it looks that way. There's no buffers immediately >by the serial logic, so I'll look further afield. Even though there is (obviously) separate parallel/serial shift registers inside the chip for each channel, I am assuming that the parallel data bus enters the chip through only one set of pins - it is entirely possible that the input gate, or some internal buffer common to both channels has failed. An easy test would be to trigger on chip select, scope the affected data bit on the bus inputs, and write patterns to the chip with the affected bit in both hign and low positions - it should be very easy to determine if the data bit is making it to the chip or not. If yes, replace the device, if no, move to the next upstream component and repeat the test (all the while keeping triggering on the device chip select). It should be a very easy matter to identify the defective device in this fashion - no need to remove anything other than whatever device is defective. Even if you don't have an extender board, it is far easier to tack a lead on to points you want to test than to be removing and replacing entire devices in the hope of being lucky. -- Just MHO. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 06:35:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:35:35 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <20050329121621.FTDB16559.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050329121621.FTDB16559.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1112099735.9507.22.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 07:16 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Even if you don't have an extender board, it is far easier to tack a lead > on to points you want to test than to be removing and replacing entire devices > in the hope of being lucky. -- Just MHO. Yep, I was thinking that too. Wish I'd tried to bring the whole machine home now! I wonder if I can power the board here... far as I know it's standard VME bus and probably doesn't need any strange voltages (just lots of current - there's a huge amount of silicon on the board). Only question is whether it'll get upset not being connected to a backplane (which would contain a handful of pull-up / pull-down resistors etc.). Other than the bus issue it's a totally self-contained board, so I'd be able to fault-find on it under powered conditions on the bench. From majordomo1 at cox.net Tue Mar 29 06:35:53 2005 From: majordomo1 at cox.net (majordomo1 at cox.net) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 7:35:53 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? Message-ID: <20050329123553.QOXZ21504.lakermmtao06.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> In 1982, Radio Shack sold it for $2495 + tax. There are many things that it can't do that more modern computers will, but it will do word processing, database, spreadsheet, communication, educational programs, games, etc, but not the internet. > > From: Gene Ehrich > Date: 2005/03/28 Mon PM 02:36:33 EST > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: TRS-80 Model III ??????? > > I have the opportunity to purchase a TRS-80 Model III computer. It looks > very good, has two 5-1/4" floppies and (she says) worked the last time it > was turned on. > > She is asking $50. > > Is that a fair price? > > What should it be worth? > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 29 07:16:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 08:16:08 -0500 Subject: GPIB on Linux Re: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> References: <42476BAB.1020100@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050329081608.00ae1c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 PM 3/28/05 -0500, SteveRob wrote: Hmmm... Now If I just had a GPIB card >for my linux box ;-) What kind of system are you running Linux on? I probably have a GP-IB card for it. Joe > >Now that's what I call a DUAL BOOT system! > >See Yas, >SteveRob > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 08:32:48 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:32:48 +0100 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af05032906326cd341ab@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:48:14 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > need to put more than this. It's not an MS-DOS limit, it's a FAT16 limit. Applies to all OSs using FAT16. FAT32 supports unlimited entries in the root dir. You could use MS-DOS 7.1, extracted from Win95OSR2 or later, or a recent version of DR-DOS or maybe even FreeDOS. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 29 09:09:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:09:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <64775.207.145.53.202.1112054806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Sellam wrote: > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > > need to put more than this. > > Hey! Weren't you one of the people complaining that cctalk isn't > a PC support forum? Excuse me. There's a MAJOR difference between an MS-DOS 3.3 question of which there is little info available online (yes, I looked) and an XP question of which there is TONS of info online. Let's not play semantical games, please. > If you aren't able to run the Linux mkdosfs command yourself, I can > send you a ZIP file containing an otherwise empty floppy image > created as described above, and you can use rawrite.exe or equivalent > to write it onto a real floppy disk. Thanks for the offer, but I'd need to format a hard drive thusly. This is a decent solution if I can't come up with anything else. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 09:20:28 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:20:28 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: <64775.207.145.53.202.1112054806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:09:26 -0800 (PST), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > Sellam wrote: > > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > > > need to put more than this. > > If you aren't able to run the Linux mkdosfs command yourself, I can > > send you a ZIP file containing an otherwise empty floppy image > > created as described above, and you can use rawrite.exe or equivalent > > to write it onto a real floppy disk. > Thanks for the offer, but I'd need to format a hard drive thusly. This is > a decent solution if I can't come up with anything else. The image could be mailed and rawritten to a floppy (or turned into a bootable .iso), and something like Ghost for Unix could be used to expand the filesystem to the appropriate hard disk. At least, I -think- that could work if one booted G4U off a CD if the filesystem was on a floppy or vice versa. -dhbarr. PS: Just a reminder not to be confuse about Ghost for Linux, an apparently non-credited rip of Ghost for Unix. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Mar 29 09:22:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <4248C34F.90604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > > need to put more than this. > > I seem to remember that the limit is actually 224. It's definitely 512 on DOS 3.3. > > Another question: > > > > When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute > > the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I > > might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: > > drive to a network drive. > > Checking 6.22 right here... works fine (I did "subst d: c:\"). So yes, > you can. Hmm, cool. > > At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file > > entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > > SUBST won't help you do this unless you don't use a floppy at all, like: > > subst a: c:\temp > > ...which works fine. I'm not using floppies at all. This is with hard disks. > My question is: Why? I'm restoring files from VHS backup tapes. The files were all originally stored and backed up from the root directory. On the tapes I used to test my process, none had more than 512 files archived. The backup software only restores *to the same exact drive and path* that the files were archived from (in this case C:\). I'm running into some tapes that have more than 512 files backed up frm the root directory. These were done back in the 1980s. I can't figure out how they did it, but there they are. Once a backup is made, you cannot add to the backup, so that's not how they did it. Anyway, what I am trying to do so that we don't have to make two runs on each tape (each tape takes 2 hours to dump) is to re-map the C: drive to a directory so that we can overcome the 512 entry limit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Mar 29 09:32:47 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:32:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP64120A Emulator on eBay Message-ID: Seems to have some pods and connectors with it... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51234&item=5763167777 $39.95 min bid - no bids yet. Also this seller has an HP Server/Workstation pair of the same apparent vintage... Cheers John From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Mar 29 10:43:22 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:43:22 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <42485E71.2000105@Rikers.org> References: <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200503291643.j2TGhN3C014179@mail.bcpl.net> On 28 Mar 2005 at 13:43, Tim Riker wrote: > Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the > tty port number info. I've had a look at Jeff's page and a quick look at the software. There are two parts to the BASIC system: the interpreter itself, and a "preparer" that configures the interpreter for the specific hardware on which it will run. You run the preparer, which reads the unconfigured interpreter in via paper tape, configures it, and punches a new tape that is ready to run on the specified hardware setup. Thereafter, you just load the prepared tape and run it. Source files 1-9 assemble into the preparer, and 10-17 into the interpreter. After assembly, the preparer is loaded (e.g., on SIMH), the I/O slot number of the teletype is entered into the S register ("deposit S 11" for SIMH), and the program is started at location 2 ("run 2"). It will print "PHOTO READER I/O ADDRESS?" and a whole bunch of other configuration questions. You can verify this by using the pre-assembled "prepare.abs" and "hpbasic.abs" files on Jeff's page. If the above doesn't work using the files you assembled, then I'd suspect an assembly problem or transcription error in the source files. Note that the interpreter doesn't use the MUX device (SIMH's 12920A implementation), but only the 12531C TTY device. It supports four terminals via four TTY cards. However, SIMH supports only one of each device, so you'll only be able to use a single TTY. Finally, and not to chase you away from here :-), but there's a SIMH users' mailing list, where questions such as the issue of SIMH using 100% of the CPU time have been discussed in some detail. Subscription instructions are available via the "Help with SIMH" link from the main SIMH Web page. -- Dave From gordt at gordtulloch.com Tue Mar 29 10:46:37 2005 From: gordt at gordtulloch.com (gordt at gordtulloch.com) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:46:37 -0600 Subject: Sup'R'Mod II docs? In-Reply-To: <20050328130143.X70545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Duh - right, I wasn't tuning to UHF, thanks for the replies! cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote on 03/28/2005 03:08:55 PM: > On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 gordt at gordtulloch.com wrote: > > I just got an old //e with a Sup'R'Mod II RF modulator - I hooked it up as > > expected to the TV (my 3 year old loves Moon Patrol in mono, so I figured > > he'll love it more in color ;) but no joy - anyone out there got docs for > > this? A scan would be lovely, mail would be fine and compensated. Let me > > know, thx! > > The Sup'R'Mod II was an RF modulator. It has a 4 pin inline berg > connector to input composite video and power (as used on Apple ][, IBM > CGA, etc.), and has an "RCA Phono" jack for output of UHF video on channel > 33. > > If you have a "modern" TV, with "Video IN", then yank out the RF mod, and > connect directly. Do NOT connect the phono of the Sup'R'Mod to the Video > input. > > Otherwise, with an older TV, connect the phono jack of the Sup'R'Mod to > the UHF antenna connections of the TV. Tune the TV to UHF channel 33. > NOT "cable" 33. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From micheladam at theedge.ca Tue Mar 29 10:52:52 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:52:52 -0700 Subject: Obscure DOS question Message-ID: <6984e96f330f.42492574@theedge.ca> How about using a later version of DOS, and having it masquerade as 3.3 if need be? The version being reported to a program by the OS can be changed on an individual program basis for compatibility purpose, so you might remove the 512 file limit without too much hassles. I beleive MS DOS 5 and up have this facility. I certainly remember using it for some AT&T STARLAN drivers way back... Michel Adam micheladam at theedge dot ca ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 8:22 am Subject: Re: Obscure DOS question > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. > I have a > > > need to put more than this. > > > > I seem to remember that the limit is actually 224. > > It's definitely 512 on DOS 3.3. > > > > Another question: > > > > > > When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently > substitute> > the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 > allowed this, although I > > > might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to > redirect the C: > > > drive to a network drive. > > > > Checking 6.22 right here... works fine (I did "subst d: c:\"). > So yes, > > you can. > > Hmm, cool. > > > > At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of > 512 file > > > entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > > > > SUBST won't help you do this unless you don't use a floppy at > all, like: > > > > subst a: c:\temp > > > > ...which works fine. > > I'm not using floppies at all. This is with hard disks. > > > My question is: Why? > > I'm restoring files from VHS backup tapes. The files were all > originallystored and backed up from the root directory. On the > tapes I used to test > my process, none had more than 512 files archived. The backup > softwareonly restores *to the same exact drive and path* that the > files were > archived from (in this case C:\). I'm running into some tapes > that have > more than 512 files backed up frm the root directory. These were done > back in the 1980s. I can't figure out how they did it, but there they > are. > > Once a backup is made, you cannot add to the backup, so that's not how > they did it. > > Anyway, what I am trying to do so that we don't have to make two > runs on > each tape (each tape takes 2 hours to dump) is to re-map the C: > drive to a > directory so that we can overcome the 512 entry limit. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 29 11:22:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: another ebay great Message-ID: <200503291722.JAA03535@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >Dwight wrote: >> I just saw someone auctioning a motorola >> MC4004. I suspect that some will think it is >> an Intel 4004 but I guess they'll soon >> find out that it is just a simple cmos part. > >Even if they did expect a simple CMOS part, they'll still be >disappointed, because the MC4004 is a TTL part! > >Motorola had a 4000 series of TTL parts before the SN7400 series >became established. So when they introduced their equivalent >of the RCA CD4000 series CMOS, they called it the MC14000 series. > >I can't find any reference to a CD4004 at the moment, but if there >was one, and Motorola made an equivalent, they would have called it >an MC14004. > >I've seen this problem occur more often when someone wants a CD4024 >and gets an MC4024, or vice versa. The former is seven stage binary >counter, but the latter is a dual VCO. > >Eric > > Yep, my error. I forgot the 14xxx as both you and William pointed out. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Mar 29 11:35:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? Message-ID: <200503291735.JAA03540@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >Eric wrote... >> Does that software do some magic that can't be done with cat, cp, or dd? >Nope, not at all. > >Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that >would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin to >a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. I figured there was already apps to >do this... but in a pinch I have done just what you said. > >Jay > > > Hi Jay In DOS, I use XTREE. It has a HEX edit mode. It doesn't allow inserting, only replacing. Dwight From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 29 12:13:15 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:13:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Mar 29, 2005 07:09:26 AM Message-ID: <20050329181316.3F49373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > > If you aren't able to run the Linux mkdosfs command yourself, I can > > send you a ZIP file containing an otherwise empty floppy image > > created as described above, and you can use rawrite.exe or equivalent > > to write it onto a real floppy disk. > > Thanks for the offer, but I'd need to format a hard drive thusly. This is > a decent solution if I can't come up with anything else. I did a similar thing to format a 120M harddrive for a laptop. I was able to fdisk the harddrive in question, but couldn't format it. So on my Linux system, I made a file the appropriate size of the partition (using "dd" and /dev/zero), then ran the appropriate mkfs command over the file, then mounted it, copied what I needed, umounted it, zipped it up (it fortunately fit on a floppy) and was able to decompress and write it to the harddrive on the laptop. From there I was able to bootstrap the rest of the way. -spc (Did have to recompile my Linux system to support mounting of files) From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue Mar 29 12:57:05 2005 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:57:05 -0000 Subject: RTP IO controllers (Computer Products, Fort Lauderdale) In-Reply-To: <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> References: <4214F7D0.1040306@gjcp.net> <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> Message-ID: <42320115.6010408@worldonline.nl> RTP makes very reliable IO equipment for use in plants and laboratories. The Universal controller can be connected to a wide variety of computers using a module that plugs into the bus of the computer. One can also use an ethernet module or a module with a serial line (DIOC) I did a number of projects where I used DIOCs to couple it with PDP-11 computers, a Foxboro SMS computer and a GE Mark V. The great advantage being that when you change the type of computer you use, the plant wiring can be left unchanged. The great reliability of the RTP stuff ment that even when the computer is worn out, you can leave the RTP in place. Factory experience was that maintenance people completely forgot the RTP gear because it practically never stopped working and bewilderment set in when it once in a while failed. Very convenient is also that after 10 or more years it was perfectly possible to get spare parts. RTP is not for planned obsolescence I would not be surprised at all if spare parts still could be obtained for your stuff. Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hello, > > I am looking for information about IO controllers made by "Computer > Products Inc., Fort Lauderdale". > > The controllers are normally named "RTP XXXX/XX" where X are numbers. > The company who produced these controllers (now RTP corp. > www.rtpcorp.com) is still around and uses its "RTP BUS". But they don't > give me any information about the bus. > > Who has this kind of hardware in one of his old minicomputers (exept Tom > Jennings who will send me over his controller)? > Who has ANY documentation for these controllers? > Who knows someone who could have... etc. > > Pictures of my controllers can be found here: > > http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp1.jpg - My two devices > http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp2.jpg - A label > http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp3.jpg - first device's cards > http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp4.jpg - second device's cards > > Thank you very much, > > Philipp :-) > > From willisjo at zianet.com Tue Mar 29 13:03:18 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:03:18 -0700 Subject: My Amiga 4000T has arrived!!! In-Reply-To: <015201c533ec$911d4480$0500fea9@game> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050328153456.00b16588@mail.30below.com> <013701c533e6$8ac750e0$0500fea9@game> <015201c533ec$911d4480$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050329190318.84087.qmail@halo.zianet.com> This has made me miss my Amiga! It's not hooked up right now, but the current Amiga setup is a PowerTowered 4000-'060/50 with 48mb RAM, with Video Toaster 4000 and an X-Surf Ethernet board, 4GB internal hd, SyQuest drive, and CD-ROM. It's got a pair of 1084 monitors and a 19" y/c plus monitor (3 monitors for VT's control/preview/program). I took it down because I couldn't find a timebase corrector for a price that I could justify. Would love to have a working VT setup though. I've also got a pair of A2000HD systems that are in storage presently. I just need to rent warehouse space with climate control and lots o' power... hmm, raised floors would be nice too... From bob at jfcl.com Tue Mar 29 13:17:05 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:17:05 -0800 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel Message-ID: <000001c53493$e85a8350$0401010a@gizmo> Does anybody have an Altair 8800b that they'd be willing to disassemble and scan the faceplate? That's all :-) Or maybe somebody has already done this? I'd like to find a nice high resolution scan of the 8800b front panel if I can. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Mar 29 13:26:03 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 29 Mar 2005 20:26:03 +0100 Subject: Help! SC/MP Programming Question In-Reply-To: <00e001c533f1$3ad80e20$9021083d@river> References: <00e001c533f1$3ad80e20$9021083d@river> Message-ID: <1112124363.21810.14.camel@ljw.me.uk> Well, since I don't see any more qualified replies: On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 00:52, river wrote: > Hi, > > I have a small issue with printing out the ASCII char set, from $20 to $7E inclusive. > (snip) > xri $7f ;gone too far? > jz ktest ;yes, start at SPACE again > jmp kt1 ;no, print it Shouldn't this be jmp kt2? But even so I don't think this would give you all-spaces as output, maybe $20 $5f $1f ... or something. > Also, I have some SC/MP listings about and one of them has "LD @0(P2)" instruction. > >From what I know, and this maybe totally wrong, the "@" is an auto-increment/auto- > decrement bit and you must specify the displacement for the inc/dec. If this is the case, > then what does the "0" that immediately follows the "@" do? I would expect to see a > value other than "0" to ensure the P2 register is inc/dec by the appropriate amount. I am sure that @0(Px) is wrong, it should be @1(Px). Looking in my (not very) trusty Osborne book, it has @0(Px), I wouldn't trust it. I have some nice old EA article here, they use @1(Px). Maybe there is some reason to use @0(Px) in place of 0(Px)? > Please, old SC/MP dudes, any help would be greatly appreciated. Not sure if this counts as help... gets walking stick and shuffles off... -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 29 13:28:06 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:28:06 -0600 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel References: <000001c53493$e85a8350$0401010a@gizmo> Message-ID: <00bb01c53495$76e5cbb0$18406b43@66067007> Check this out http://www.computercloset.org/MITSAltair8800b.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Armstrong" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:17 PM Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel > > Does anybody have an Altair 8800b that they'd be willing to disassemble > and scan the faceplate? That's all :-) Or maybe somebody has already > done > this? I'd like to find a nice high resolution scan of the 8800b front > panel > if I can. > > Thanks, > Bob Armstrong > > > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Mar 29 13:29:03 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:29:03 -0500 Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I've had pretty good luck hexediting w/ khexedit (part of KDE). It does have a insert/delete mode. Albeit that involves Linux/KDE, and is fairly fat. I believe "hiew" is available for DOS that works reasonably as well. The demo version may be enough for what you need. David On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 18:04 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > Jay wrote: > > Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that > > would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin > > to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. > > I use Emacs Hexl-mode for that. > > I've thought about compiling GNOME Hex Editor (ghex), but never have > gotten around to it: > http://library.n0i.net/linux-unix/applications/x/gnome/ghex/ > > I haven't tried DataWorkshop (written in Java), but it looks pretty nice: > http://www.dataworkshop.de/ > > Maybe it would be reasonable to add paper-tape support to one of those. > > A search for "hex editor" on freshmeat.net turns up quite a few other > programs as well, including at least four GPL'd text/curses-based > editors. > > Eric From bob at jfcl.com Tue Mar 29 14:24:28 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:24:28 -0800 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel In-Reply-To: <00bb01c53495$76e5cbb0$18406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000a01c5349d$4faa2e30$0401010a@gizmo> Umm.. Close, but not quite. I was hoping for something bigger and more detailed. I can't even read all the text on this one. Thanks, Bob Armstrong -----Original Message----- From: Keys [mailto:jrkeys at concentric.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:28 AM To: bob at jfcl.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel Check this out http://www.computercloset.org/MITSAltair8800b.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Armstrong" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:17 PM Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel > > Does anybody have an Altair 8800b that they'd be willing to > disassemble and scan the faceplate? That's all :-) Or maybe somebody > has already done this? I'd like to find a nice high resolution scan > of the 8800b front panel > if I can. > > Thanks, > Bob Armstrong > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 14:31:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:31:47 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1112128307.9507.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 22:41 +0100, John Honniball wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > This implies that some buffer chip that feeds to 8530 is > faulty. It may be a 74LS244, and 74LS245 or something similar. > Try to trace bit 6 of the 8530's data bus back to a buffer. Right, no buffer unfortunately. It'd appear that one of the big LSI chips handles the data bus to the SCC 8530 chips, which is also common to the clock IC, the board's ID PROM, and also an octal D-type flip-flop IC (as an input). the latter's responsible for latching the diagnostic LEDs on the edge of the board I think. I'd be surprised if the system would boot (which it appears to be doing fine) if the LSI chip was busted and the machine couldn't talk to the ID PROM (and probably the RTC chip too), but I suppose it's possible. I don't recall it having lamp #6 of the diag LED array jammed on either. So, it's *probably* the SCC but I think I'll take the board back to the museum next time I'm there and as Dave said, stick a 'scope on it just to be certain. One SCC drives serial ports A and B, and another drives C and D. Unfortunately it's probably more trouble than it's worth to try and fool the system into swapping those over via a few hack wires on the board to see if it fixes things - as there's an interrupt chain it's not as easy as just swapping chip select lines. cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 29 14:32:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <575131af05032906326cd341ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af05032906326cd341ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34485.207.145.53.202.1112128321.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Liam wrote: > It's not an MS-DOS limit, it's a FAT16 limit. No, it isn't. FAT16 doesn't care, as I've demonstrated. From acme at gbronline.com Tue Mar 29 14:40:22 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:40:22 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <0IE100DQALKUPQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IE100DQALKUPQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <4249BD36.40708@gbronline.com> Andy Erlanger wrote: > I'm on Long Island, New York. You guys are probably in CA, right? Don't I wish. Glen 0/0 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 29 14:38:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:38:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <34485.207.145.53.202.1112128321.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <575131af05032906326cd341ab@mail.gmail.com> <34485.207.145.53.202.1112128321.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <35004.207.145.53.202.1112128690.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > Liam wrote: >> It's not an MS-DOS limit, it's a FAT16 limit. I wrote: > No, it isn't. FAT16 doesn't care, as I've demonstrated. Correction. I previously demonstrated that FAT12 doesn't care. I've now done a second experiment and determined that FAT16 also can have well over 512 root directory entries. It's all a matter of getting the file system formatted that way, which the usual MS-DOS format command won't. Eric From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Mar 29 14:29:13 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:29:13 +0100 Subject: Help! SC/MP Programming Question In-Reply-To: Your message of "29 Mar 2005 20:26:03 BST." <1112124363.21810.14.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200503292029.VAA32029@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Lawrence Wilkinson said: > I am sure that @0(Px) is wrong, it should be @1(Px). Looking in my (not > very) trusty Osborne book, it has @0(Px), I wouldn't trust it. I have > some nice old EA article here, they use @1(Px). Maybe there is some > reason to use @0(Px) in place of 0(Px)? I'm sure yoy're right, I've never seen @0(Px) used anywhere as far as I can remember. Also, remember that if the displacement is zero or positive it's added _after_ the contenets of the address have been fetched/stored, if the displacement is negative it's added _before_ the operation. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Mar 29 10:46:17 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:46:17 +0100 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <1112095524.9507.15.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> <1112095524.9507.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42498659.5050103@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > I've only got the board here with me, not the machine, so can't do any > work under load conditions - but then I'm pretty sure we don't have any > bus extension boards that'd fit this Sun board anyway (it's extremely > deep - much more than I've typically seen on machines with a cardcage) Sun's so-called VME boards are much bigger than real VME boards, both in height and width. I have some card "frames" here that allow you to plug ordinary VME cards into Suns, if you need any. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From websupport at degnanco.com Tue Mar 29 14:11:14 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:11:14 -0500 Subject: Obscure DOS question Message-ID: Have you tried using the append command? You can put ~512 files in the root and then the rest in directories, but the OS will treat all files within the append "path" as being from the same place. By using the append command, you can tell the OS to look in the other directories without having to declare the directories in your code. It sounds like each file name is unique so it should work (?) append a:;a:\1;a:\2 -Bill > >MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a >need to put more than this. > >Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? >Some sort of patch or utility? > >Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the >root? > >Another question: > >When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute >the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although I >might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect the C: >drive to a network drive. > >At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file >entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > >Does anyone know how to accomplish this? > -- E N D -- From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 29 14:47:19 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:47:19 -0500 Subject: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73 References: <4214F7D0.1040306@gjcp.net> <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> <42320115.6010408@worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <005601c534a0$807f3840$3a92a8c0@maggie> M8190, 2 megs ram, rqdx3 controller.. booted Jonathon E.'s modified vtserver to run boot.dd and the ZRQCH0.BIN dumped in E11 from xxdp25.rl02 pathed for boot.dd.. then tried to format a proper (sadly prev. PC formatted) RD54 on an M9058 distrib. card (one drive, DS set to DS3, and terminated) (I've also got all 4WP/drive ready switches/leds attached but none show activity on bootup.. so it looks like ZRQCH0 never even talks to the RD54) ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00006 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 Fatal Controller Error During Initialization. ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00006 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 002 PC: 105742 Fatal Controller Error During Initialization. ZRQC EOP 1 2 TOTAL ERRS Anyone know what these error messages below mean? Am I using the wrong image for an RQDX3 - maybe ZRQCH0.BIN wants an RQDX2? I googled around, looked on bitsavers but couldn't find any explanation. damn - I wish I had a qbus scsi controller or at least a vaxstation2000! Anybody up to putting an IDE drive ON QBUS via a DRV11? Regards heinz From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Mar 29 15:03:40 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:03:40 +0200 Subject: HP Lamps Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I just found two small lamps in a HP packaging and was wondering if someone knew for which system these are ? Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT Anyone any idea's ? It came with a bunch of HP1000 items. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.mansier.net From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Mar 29 15:06:09 2005 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:06:09 -0600 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector Message-ID: My wife has made the mistake of asking me what I wanted for my birthday. Most of the suggestions I could make she wouldn't be able to understand or find. This led me onto a thought process about the ideal "computer play area". Insulated 20' X 20' room one wall entirely covered in shelving raised floor extreme airconditioning oversized chair with U-shaped table for work area power strips everywhere tools for anything phone to call and order more "stuff" refrig for food and drink no need to sleep Enough money to buy any classic computer I desired and no interruptions for work or chores. These were the last thoughts I had as I drifted off to sleep. Maybe I'll work on this dream a little more tonight. I've heard that some prisoners develop an alternate world with activities that keep them sane. Mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 15:16:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:16:16 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <42498659.5050103@gifford.co.uk> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> <1112095524.9507.15.camel@weka.localdomain> <42498659.5050103@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <1112130976.9490.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 17:46 +0100, John Honniball wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've only got the board here with me, not the machine, so can't do any > > work under load conditions - but then I'm pretty sure we don't have any > > bus extension boards that'd fit this Sun board anyway (it's extremely > > deep - much more than I've typically seen on machines with a cardcage) > > Sun's so-called VME boards are much bigger than real VME boards, > both in height and width. I gather from poking around that the top two backplane connectors follow the accepted VME standard pinout, but the bottom connector is the one that carries the power on Sun machines and is proprietary... unfortunately it'd be the bottom one I'd need to know in order to power up the board away from the machine! > I have some card "frames" here that > allow you to plug ordinary VME cards into Suns, if you need any. Hmm, I can't immediately think of a use for them to be honest. Our Sun 2 is multibus, and our 3/50 is just an all-in one thing. They'd fit our 3/150, but that's reasonably tricked out with goodies already. The machine with this 4/330 board in it only has one slot free on it; the rest are crammed full of boards with the number-crunching DSP processors on (4 processors per board, and I believe 16MB of DRAM per processor - it's a monster!). cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 29 15:18:15 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <20050329131746.S890@localhost> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, David Holland wrote: >> Jay wrote: >>> Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that >>> would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin >>> to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. vi has a hex mode; probably the dos version does too. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 29 15:21:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:21:37 +0000 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112131297.9490.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 15:06 -0600, McFadden, Mike wrote: > one wall entirely covered in shelving You can never have enough shelving. The amount of shelvable things always expands to fill the shelving available (with 20% still left over in a pile on the floor) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 29 15:27:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:27:02 -0600 Subject: one more time... Facit software? References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202><004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202><1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <20050329131746.S890@localhost> Message-ID: <004d01c534a6$0e4278e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > vi has a hex mode; probably the dos version does too. Yeahhhhhhh but I was gonna get fancy and write something that displays the tape words in HP format, along with the assembly mnemonics :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 29 15:28:25 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:28:25 -0600 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector References: Message-ID: <005201c534a6$3e389c00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Mike wrote... > Insulated 20' X 20' room > one wall entirely covered in shelving > raised floor > extreme airconditioning > oversized chair with U-shaped table for work area > power strips everywhere > tools for anything > phone to call and order more "stuff" > refrig for food and drink > no need to sleep > > Enough money to buy any classic computer I desired and no interruptions > for work or chores. If your wife allows/provides this, let me know - it'd be time to upgrade to a new model *GRIN* Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 29 15:29:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:29:55 -0600 Subject: HP Lamps References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <005701c534a6$738dde60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Stephan wrote... > Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V > Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT > > Anyone any idea's ? It came with a bunch of HP1000 items. I have not taken the time to look up these part numbers yet, but my guess would be lamps for the pushbuttons in a 7970 tape drive, and perhaps the load point tape sensor? Jay West From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 29 15:35:28 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:35:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41091.207.145.53.202.1112132128.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Mike wrote about his desired birthday present: > Insulated 20' X 20' room Make that about 40' x 80'. > one wall entirely covered in shelving OK, but I'll still need a separate room for the library, with much more shelving. > refrig for food and drink Not in the computer room, please. > no need to sleep It's possible that the necessary technology for this already exists. The US Army has conducted a test of a drug that seems to avoid the need for sleep *without* a reduction of mental ability or incidence of psychotic behavior. > I've heard that some prisoners develop an alternate world with > activities that keep them sane. Perhaps for a sufficiently loose definition of "sane". I'd try to avoid doing that. It's one thing to wish for it, and quite another to pretend you have it. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 29 15:37:19 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:37:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: <005201c534a6$3e389c00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005201c534a6$3e389c00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <41524.207.145.53.202.1112132239.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jay wrote: > If your wife allows/provides this, let me know - it'd be time to upgrade > to a new model *GRIN* Wrong emoticon -- I think you mean *GDR* (Grin, duck, and run) Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 29 15:39:42 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:39:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <004d01c534a6$0e4278e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202><004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202><1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <20050329131746.S890@localhost> <004d01c534a6$0e4278e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <41841.207.145.53.202.1112132382.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > Yeahhhhhhh but I was gonna get fancy and write something that displays the > tape words in HP format, along with the assembly mnemonics :) That seems like something that could easily be added to DataWorkshop, if you don't mind developing in Java. It already has a framework for multiple views of your data. http://freshmeat.net/projects/dataworkshop/ Eric From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Mar 29 15:52:51 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:52:51 +0100 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector References: <1112131297.9490.59.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00c401c534a9$a87cdd80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Don't forget 3 phase power for those larger machines, and a proper computer room floor so that you can hide all the cables - it would be a shame to trip over a cable and break a computer (or your neck....) Jim. From news at computercollector.com Tue Mar 29 15:52:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (news at computercollector.com) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:52:41 -0500 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200503292151.j2TLpSjF021366@dewey.classiccmp.org> Your dream room sounds great. But for some real-world gift ideas, check out the buyer's guide on my web site: http://news.computercollector.com -- click where it says "Click here" (intuitive, huh?)... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of McFadden, Mike Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:06 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector My wife has made the mistake of asking me what I wanted for my birthday. Most of the suggestions I could make she wouldn't be able to understand or find. This led me onto a thought process about the ideal "computer play area". Insulated 20' X 20' room one wall entirely covered in shelving raised floor extreme airconditioning oversized chair with U-shaped table for work area power strips everywhere tools for anything phone to call and order more "stuff" refrig for food and drink no need to sleep Enough money to buy any classic computer I desired and no interruptions for work or chores. These were the last thoughts I had as I drifted off to sleep. Maybe I'll work on this dream a little more tonight. I've heard that some prisoners develop an alternate world with activities that keep them sane. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 29 15:53:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:53:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: <005201c534a6$3e389c00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005201c534a6$3e389c00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050329135244.L99373@shell.lmi.net> > If your wife allows/provides this, let me know - Does she have a sister? From mcesari at comcast.net Tue Mar 29 16:08:30 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:08:30 -0700 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector In-Reply-To: <00c401c534a9$a87cdd80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <1112131297.9490.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <00c401c534a9$a87cdd80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1626368f71e4761a2683627dc7f00908@comcast.net> On Mar 29, 2005, at 2:52 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: > Don't forget 3 phase power for those larger machines, and a proper > computer > room floor so that you can hide all the cables - it would be a shame > to trip > over a cable and break a computer (or your neck....) > > Jim. > Ah, but that's what overhead power and cable ways are for. More flexible, too. Mike (Who will be happy to never have to futz with cables under raised flooring again.) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Mar 29 16:08:54 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:08:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP Lamps In-Reply-To: <005701c534a6$738dde60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> <005701c534a6$738dde60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Jay West wrote: > Stephan wrote... >> Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V >> Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT >> >> Anyone any idea's ? It came with a bunch of HP1000 items. > I have not taken the time to look up these part numbers yet, but my guess > would be lamps for the pushbuttons in a 7970 tape drive, and perhaps the load > point tape sensor? Spot on. Photosense Head PCA, page 79: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/hp/tape/07970-90886_7970drws_Nov76.pdf The display lamps are 2140-0209 (14V). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From James at jdfogg.com Tue Mar 29 16:20:11 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:20:11 -0500 Subject: Birthday gifts for the computer collector Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E57@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I've heard that some prisoners develop an alternate world > with activities that keep them sane. > > Mike I do this now! Is this a bad thing? From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 29 16:35:34 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:35:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <20050329131746.S890@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Mar 29, 2005 01:18:15 PM Message-ID: <20050329223535.4F50873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tom Jennings once stated: > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, David Holland wrote: > > >> Jay wrote: > >>> Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that > >>> would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin > >>> to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. > > vi has a hex mode; probably the dos version does too. vi has a hex mode? Really? -spc (And here I've been using it for 16 years and *still* learn something new about it ... ) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 29 16:37:30 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:37:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: David Holland "Re: one more time... Facit software?" (Mar 29, 14:29) References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <1112124543.14592.13.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <10503292337.ZM15408@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 29 2005, 14:29, David Holland wrote: > I've had pretty good luck hexediting w/ khexedit (part of KDE). It > does have a insert/delete mode. > > Albeit that involves Linux/KDE, and is fairly fat. > On Mon, 2005-03-28 at 18:04 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: > > Jay wrote: > > > Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps something that > > > would read the data into a file, and let you edit it with something akin > > > to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. > > > > I use Emacs Hexl-mode for that. I use "hexedit", one of the curses-based ones. Lightweight, extendable. On my SGI Indy/Irix 5.3, the binary is 25328 bytes. http://merd.sourceforge.net/pixel/hexedit.html http://merd.net/pixel/hexedit-1.2.10.src.tgz -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Mar 29 16:37:43 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:37:43 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050329163003.0c07d688@localhost> Append allows FCB-oriented file opens to "succeed" if the append.exe TSR is loaded and you've mentioned the directory where the files actually live in an APPEND command line. You can't actually write more files than the file structure supports if APPEND is all the extra help you've got. Some of my notes say that APPEND is incompatible with BACKUP. Presumably that's the DOS 3.3 version of BACKUP (and APPEND) since I'm reading printed DOS 3.3 docs here. At 03:11 PM 3/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Have you tried using the append command? You can put ~512 files >in the root and then the rest in directories, but the OS will treat >all files within the append "path" as being from the same place. >By using the append command, you can tell the OS to look in the >other directories without having to declare the directories in your >code. It sounds like each file name is unique so it should work >(?) > >append a:;a:\1;a:\2 > >-Bill > > > > >MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I have a > >need to put more than this. > > > >Was there ever a way to put more than 512 files in the root directory? > >Some sort of patch or utility? > > > >Did previous or subsequent versions of MS-DOS allow more entries in the > >root? > > > >Another question: > > > >When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently substitute > >the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed this, although >I > >might be confusing that with the ability of LANtastic to redirect >the C: > >drive to a network drive. > > > >At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 file > >entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > > > >Does anyone know how to accomplish this? > > > > > > > >-- E N D -- [SF] Some of the colonists objected to having an anatomically correct android running around without any clothes on --Juliana Soong (Inheritance) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From hachti at hachti.de Tue Mar 29 16:46:07 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:46:07 +0200 Subject: PDP8/L Paper tapes online Message-ID: <4249DAAF.3000604@hachti.de> Hello, PDP8-enthusiasts! I recently got a very complete looking set of paper tapes for the PDP8/L. All tapes are read in and ready for download on http://pdp8.hachti.de . Feel free to copy and/or mirror the files. I would be glad to see my tape images on bitsavers etc. Good night, Philipp :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 29 16:55:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:55:33 -0600 Subject: PDP8/L Paper tapes online References: <4249DAAF.3000604@hachti.de> Message-ID: <003301c534b2$6a4b4cf0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Philipp wrote... > All tapes are read in and ready for download on http://pdp8.hachti.de . > Feel free to copy and/or mirror the files. I would be glad to see my tape > images on bitsavers etc. Al; Let me know if you're going to add them to bitsavers, if not, I'll mirror them on classiccmp. Jay From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 29 17:11:53 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:11:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73 In-Reply-To: "Heinz Wolter" "formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73" (Mar 29, 15:47) References: <4214F7D0.1040306@gjcp.net> <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> <42320115.6010408@worldonline.nl> <005601c534a0$807f3840$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <10503300011.ZM15500@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 29 2005, 15:47, Heinz Wolter wrote: > M8190, 2 megs ram, rqdx3 controller.. > booted Jonathon E.'s modified vtserver to run boot.dd and > the ZRQCH0.BIN dumped in E11 from xxdp25.rl02 pathed for boot.dd.. > then tried to format a proper (sadly prev. PC formatted) RD54 > on an M9058 distrib. card (one drive, DS set to DS3, and terminated) > (I've also got all 4WP/drive ready switches/leds attached but none show > activity on bootup.. so it looks like ZRQCH0 never even talks > to the RD54) > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00006 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 > Fatal Controller Error During Initialization. > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00006 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 002 PC: 105742 > Fatal Controller Error During Initialization. > > ZRQC EOP 1 > 2 TOTAL ERRS > > Anyone know what these error messages below mean? Am I using > the wrong image for an RQDX3 - maybe ZRQCH0.BIN wants an RQDX2? No, ZRQC is specifically for an RQDX3, and H0 is the proper version for an RD54. It wouldn't work with an RQDX2 (you need ZRQBCx for that). Have you got the correct ROMs in the RQDX3? Correct jumper settings (standard address set on W1-W11, W12-W17 not fitted, W23 should have jumpers between 1-2 and 3-4 for most firmware versions)? Which connectors do you have the drive connected to (should be J1 and J5)? Do you have the terminator resistor pack on the drive itself? "Fatal Controller Error" sounds like the controller isn't doing what the diagnostic expects. Does the RQDX3 pass the self-test? It has a small LED on it; that should go out about 3 seconds after power-up if it passes the selftest. If it doesn't, disconnect the drive and try the power-up selftest again. I've never run ZRQC (or indeed most XXDPv2 diagnostics) the way you're doing it. Are you sure that works? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 29 17:29:13 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:29:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73 In-Reply-To: "Heinz Wolter" "formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73" (Mar 29, 15:47) References: <4214F7D0.1040306@gjcp.net> <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> <42320115.6010408@worldonline.nl> <005601c534a0$807f3840$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <10503300029.ZM15519@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 29 2005, 15:47, Heinz Wolter wrote: > M8190, 2 megs ram, rqdx3 controller.. > booted Jonathon E.'s modified vtserver to run boot.dd and > the ZRQCH0.BIN dumped in E11 from xxdp25.rl02 pathed for boot.dd.. > then tried to format a proper (sadly prev. PC formatted) RD54 > on an M9058 distrib. card (one drive, DS set to DS3, and terminated) One more thought... some of the manuals say to set the drive to DS3. With an M9058 it shouldn't matter; the drive selects are all tied together on each of J1, J2, J3, J4, each of which is fed by a separate drive select from J12 (the 50-way connection to the RQDX3). For example, J1-26 is fed from J12-30, which is DrvSel.3. Except that there's a removable link for each connector, between DS0 (pin 26) and DS1/2/3 (pins 28/30/32 - DS1/2/3 are hardwired together); make sure that link hasn't been removed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Mar 29 17:49:51 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:49:51 -0500 Subject: HP Lamps In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200503292349.j2TNnqA4001965@mail.bcpl.net> On 29 Mar 2005 at 23:03, Stefan wrote: > Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V > Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT The HP 1000 "CE Handbook" says that this is the "photo sense" lamp for a 7970B/E tape drive (i.e., the BOT/EOT reflective sensor). See page 71-1 of: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/5950-3767_M-E-F_CEhbk_Jul84.pdf -- Dave From rschaefe at gcfn.org Tue Mar 29 14:03:54 2005 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (R. F. Schaefer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:03:54 -0500 Subject: Dssi Cables In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405032814207304a899@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640503280913321dee02@mail.gmail.com> <1256.192.168.0.3.1112035500.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42486E16.6000509@gcfn.org> <03d401c533d9$7e0c9200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <26c11a6405032814207304a899@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4249B4AA.1020605@gcfn.org> Dan Williams wrote: > > If the 4000/200 has the same dssi connector as a 4000/500. Then that > is the right cable. The connectors are the same. I use one for the > same purpose. I hunted down the part number a few years ago, I'm pretty sure it's right. The VAX is in the back of the room currently, so it'd be a pretty big job to check. It's in the same (or very similar) chassis as the R400x. > > Dan > Bob From ericj at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 29 18:32:15 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73 In-Reply-To: <10503300011.ZM15500@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've never run ZRQC (or indeed most XXDPv2 diagnostics) the way you're > doing it. Are you sure that works? I used the same method to format an rd54 a few weeks ago. It worked fine for me. Thanks to Jonathan Engdahl for providing the details at: http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/xxdp.htm From cctech at randy482.com Tue Mar 29 18:42:04 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:42:04 -0600 Subject: PDP8/L Paper tapes online References: <4249DAAF.3000604@hachti.de> <003301c534b2$6a4b4cf0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002a01c534c1$4eeb67b0$b93cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jay West" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:55 PM > Philipp wrote... >> All tapes are read in and ready for download on http://pdp8.hachti.de . >> Feel free to copy and/or mirror the files. I would be glad to see my tape >> images on bitsavers etc. > > Al; > > Let me know if you're going to add them to bitsavers, if not, I'll mirror > them on classiccmp. > > Jay I downloaded a couple of Cromemco paper-tape files from bitsavers. They are in binary format and include nulls (00). There is no load information. To use them you need to figure out the starting byte and the load location. If the original tape wasn't homogenous then the file is totally useless. If anyone posts any more files it would help to keep them in Intel hex format or what ever format was used by the original tapes. I happen to know that Cromemco set out tapes in Intel hex format. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Mar 29 19:10:56 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:10:56 -0800 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel In-Reply-To: <000001c53493$e85a8350$0401010a@gizmo> Message-ID: <012801c534c5$5713bc40$6e7ba8c0@p933> I have one for the 8800 (http://www.vintage-computer.com/altair8800.shtml - bottom of the page) but I doubt it's what you need. If I had a B I'd be happy to pull it and scan it. . . :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:17 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel Does anybody have an Altair 8800b that they'd be willing to disassemble and scan the faceplate? That's all :-) Or maybe somebody has already done this? I'd like to find a nice high resolution scan of the 8800b front panel if I can. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From tomj at wps.com Tue Mar 29 19:57:18 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" Message-ID: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. Man I wish I had a collection of pre-1980 DATAMATIONs! From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: KLUDGE The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly matched parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every computer contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the users and wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If there are enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition is not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. -- F. Gruenberger [Said book found at abebooks...] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 29 19:48:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:48:41 -0500 Subject: RTP IO controllers (Computer Products, Fort Lauderdale) In-Reply-To: <42320115.6010408@worldonline.nl> References: <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> <4214F7D0.1040306@gjcp.net> <421506E1.3010401@hachti.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050329204841.00964460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:35 PM 3/11/05 +0100, you wrote: >RTP makes very reliable IO equipment for use in plants and laboratories. >The Universal controller can be connected to a wide variety of computers >using a module that plugs into the bus of the computer. One can also >use an ethernet module or a module with a serial line (DIOC) I did a >number of projects where I used DIOCs to couple it with PDP-11 >computers, a Foxboro SMS computer and a GE Mark V. The great advantage >being that when you change the type of computer you use, the plant >wiring can be left unchanged. The great reliability of the RTP stuff >ment that even when the computer is worn out, you can leave the RTP in >place. Factory experience was that maintenance people completely forgot >the RTP gear because it practically never stopped working and >bewilderment set in when it once in a while failed. >Very convenient is also that after 10 or more years it was perfectly >possible to get spare parts. RTP is not for planned obsolescence >I would not be surprised at all if spare parts still could be obtained >for your stuff. > >Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I am looking for information about IO controllers made by "Computer >> Products Inc., Fort Lauderdale". >> >> The controllers are normally named "RTP XXXX/XX" where X are numbers. >> The company who produced these controllers (now RTP corp. >> www.rtpcorp.com) is still around and uses its "RTP BUS". But they don't >> give me any information about the bus. FWIW I've seen a LOT of cards of this type and always wondered about them. But I've never heard of "Computer Products Inc." or seen any complete systems. I'm located about 150 - 200 miles from Ft. Lauderdale. Joe >> >> Who has this kind of hardware in one of his old minicomputers (exept Tom >> Jennings who will send me over his controller)? >> Who has ANY documentation for these controllers? >> Who knows someone who could have... etc. >> >> Pictures of my controllers can be found here: >> >> http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp1.jpg - My two devices >> http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp2.jpg - A label >> http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp3.jpg - first device's cards >> http://h316.hachti.de/img/rtp4.jpg - second device's cards >> >> Thank you very much, >> >> Philipp :-) >> >> > > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 20:37:58 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:37:58 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> Message-ID: Actually the term goes back much further than that. Back in the early days of flying machines the French were in the forefront of aircraft design. In the early days the use of a "stick" to control the flying surfaces used various levers and lines. The French used a system whereby the "stick" was connected to a bell shaped device with lines connected to both the forward and aft sides of the bell that controlled the elevators and lines connected to the right and left sides of the bell to control the ailerons. When the bell was pushed forward at the top the forward edge went down and the line was extended and the rear edge went up, pulling on that line. This deflected the elevator..etc...etc... This was a rather unwieldy system to say the least....but hell, what would you expect from the French? The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as a cloche or later as a Kludge. On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings wrote: > I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think > it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the > standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. > > Man I wish I had a collection of pre-1980 DATAMATIONs! > > From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: > > KLUDGE > > The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an > article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). > The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly > matched parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every > computer contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the > users and wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If > there are enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". > > By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, > documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition > is not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has > accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". > > The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a > kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the > articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited > by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. > > -- F. Gruenberger > > [Said book found at abebooks...] > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From ericj at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 29 22:13:52 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not > un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the > Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as a cloche or > later as a Kludge. Interesting. I'd always assumed it was a corruption of some form of the German word 'kluge' (clever). From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 29 22:54:14 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:54:14 -0800 Subject: origins of "kludge" Message-ID: <424A30F6.6030609@ix.netcom.com> > From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: > > KLUDGE > > The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an > article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). > The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly > matched parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every > computer contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the > users and wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If > there are enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". > > By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, > documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition > is not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has > accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". As others have mentioned, the origin much older. There was a long thread on this someplace, maybe in Datamation, about the origin. It was certainly in use before WWII by maintainers of the punched card devices. It showed up in writing in a few articles during the '50's. > The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a > kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the > articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited > by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. > > -- F. Gruenberger I shall certainly try to find the book. I loved those articles. Read all of them when they came out. I still have two of them that I tore out of Datamation. Scans of them would be perfect for the readers of this list. I especially remember "How To Maintain A Kludge" subtitled "Craftily!" Paraphrasing, they had a hall of fame maintenance engineer who talked a customer into using a Kludge Komputer for 6 months even though it had a broken power on switch. Billy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Mar 29 22:51:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:51:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200503300500.AAA23408@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not >> un-similarly to kludge. Well, "cloche" is lacking the plosive, but perhaps it's not too unlikely a distortion. > Interesting. I'd always assumed it was a corruption of some form of > the German word 'kluge' (clever). The Jargon File entry for `kludge' seems to derive it from a Scots word, though it does include a nod towards the German. See http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/K/kludge.html (and kluge.html, which contains not only some description of `kluge' but a good deal of interesting historical material - amusingly, I somehow managed to pick up both the -d- spelling and the /klooj/ pronunciation, to the point that anything else looks/sounds wrong to me). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Wed Mar 30 00:45:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> Message-ID: <20050329224420.B747@localhost> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Actually the term goes back much further than that. See? :-) > Back in the early > days of flying machines the French were in the forefront of aircraft > design. In the early days the use of a "stick" to control the flying Got proof? From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Mar 30 01:13:59 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:13:59 +1000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> Message-ID: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 30/03/2005, at 11:57 AM, Tom Jennings wrote: > I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think > it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the > standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. Well kludge has been in common use in Queensland (Australia) since at least the early 1900s as the name of an outside toilet. This probably pre-dates any computing reference :-) In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 01:24:12 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:24:12 -0800 Subject: Obscure DOS question References: Message-ID: <001501c534f9$78d408b0$6401a8c0@hal9000> I have an original Microsoft MS-DOS (3.3) User's Guide / User's Reference (in the original box) which clearly states on page 34; "The maximum number of files or directories that the root directory may contain is "usually" 112 for a double-sided, double-density, 5.25-inch floppy disk. The maximum number of entries in the root directory of a 1.44 megabyte, 3.5-inch floppy disk is 224. This maximum capacity for a root directory depends upon "how" the disk is formatted. The number of subdirectories on a disk is not restricted." No mention of hard drives on this particular subject. (Internal quotes were added for emphasis). Sometimes information exists if you know where to look. As with all Microsoft "documentation" you have to try to decipher what the hell they are really trying to say...... Steven C. > Sellam wrote: > Excuse me. There's a MAJOR difference between an MS-DOS 3.3 question of > which there is little info available online (yes, I looked) and an XP > question of which there is TONS of info online. From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 01:32:43 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0800 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg References: Message-ID: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? 1. Boot machine 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 3. A list of system programmers is displayed Steven C. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 01:33:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:33:56 -0500 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0800, Steven Canning wrote: > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > 1. Boot machine > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed My real C128 is in a box elsewhere, but VICE v1.14 gives me a CPU Jam @ $7E97 when try this. Perhaps this depends on 'unimplemented' opcodes and the VICE core isn't perfectly emulating them? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 01:33:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:33:56 -0500 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0800, Steven Canning wrote: > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > 1. Boot machine > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed My real C128 is in a box elsewhere, but VICE v1.14 gives me a CPU Jam @ $7E97 when try this. Perhaps this depends on 'unimplemented' opcodes and the VICE core isn't perfectly emulating them? -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Mar 30 01:35:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:35:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun 4/330 with faulty serial interface... In-Reply-To: <42498659.5050103@gifford.co.uk> References: <1111866856.5619.27.camel@weka.localdomain> <42472C69.6030305@gifford.co.uk> <1112035272.8482.10.camel@weka.localdomain> <42487A15.3080104@gifford.co.uk> <1112095524.9507.15.camel@weka.localdomain> <42498659.5050103@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <200503300736.CAA04011@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Sun's so-called VME boards are much bigger than real VME boards, I thought they *were* "real VME boards", just for a different and somewhat less common VME spec (9U instead of 6U). Was I confused? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Mar 30 01:42:07 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:42:07 +0100 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050330084053.02190ec0@slave> At 08:32 30/03/2005, you wrote: >Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > >1. Boot machine >2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 >3. A list of system programmers is displayed Vice says: BREAK PC SR AC XR YR SP ; 08000 71 0E 2D 06 F7 This is running in 40 col mode. Cheers, Ade. From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Mar 30 02:00:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:00:04 -0600 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <001e01c534fe$7f5e2120$1a92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:33 AM > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:32:43 -0800, Steven Canning > wrote: >> Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? >> >> 1. Boot machine >> 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 >> 3. A list of system programmers is displayed > > My real C128 is in a box elsewhere, but VICE v1.14 gives me a CPU Jam > @ $7E97 when try this. > > Perhaps this depends on 'unimplemented' opcodes and the VICE core > isn't perfectly emulating them? > > -ethan Please post to cctalk or cctech but not both, it goes to the same place so it ends up doubling. Randy From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Mar 30 02:01:27 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:01:27 +0100 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> Huw Davies wrote: > > On 30/03/2005, at 11:57 AM, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think >> it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the >> standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. > > > Well kludge has been in common use in Queensland (Australia) since at > least the early 1900s as the name of an outside toilet. This probably > pre-dates any computing reference :-) > > In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 02:05:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:05:29 -0500 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <001e01c534fe$7f5e2120$1a92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> <001e01c534fe$7f5e2120$1a92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:00:04 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Please post to cctalk or cctech but not both, it goes to the same place so > it ends up doubling. Yeah... sorry about that... it was unintentional... I did a "reply all" and didn't notice that it was going to both lists. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:26:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:26:14 -0500 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? Message-ID: I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings to stdout. Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? Thanks, -ethan From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Mar 30 04:50:31 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:50:31 +0200 Subject: HP Lamps In-Reply-To: <200503292349.j2TNnqA4001965@mail.bcpl.net> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> <200503292349.j2TNnqA4001965@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050330124841.03465698@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Ahaaa :-) Not that I have any use for them though, so if anybody wants them, they are available for swap. Stefan. At 01:49 30-3-2005, you wrote: >On 29 Mar 2005 at 23:03, Stefan wrote: > > > Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V > > Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT > >The HP 1000 "CE Handbook" says that this is the "photo sense" lamp for a >7970B/E tape drive (i.e., the BOT/EOT reflective sensor). See page 71-1 >of: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/5950-3767_M-E-F_CEhbk_Jul84.pdf > > -- Dave ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Mar 30 06:38:05 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:38:05 -0600 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <424A9DAD.70601@mdrconsult.com> Steven Canning wrote: > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > 1. Boot machine > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed I have a C128D I need to pull out anyway. I'll try this this evening if nobody gets to it before. Doc From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Mar 30 06:51:30 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:51:30 +1000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 30/03/2005, at 6:01 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. > Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid > toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't understand much of the dialog :-) But yes, I'd agree, it's probably based on a Scottish word - wrong part of the Celtic languages for me to understand.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Mar 30 07:09:20 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:09:20 +1000 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55c390986fd8347a8d84a1bbcaaba70f@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 30/03/2005, at 8:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR > there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least > BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command > line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings > to stdout. > > Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? bcd, ppt? See http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi? query=bcd&sektion=6&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+5.3-RELEASE+and+Ports Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 30 07:52:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:52:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <424A9DAD.70601@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Mar 30, 5 06:38:05 am" Message-ID: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> > > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > > > 1. Boot machine > > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed > > I have a C128D I need to pull out anyway. I'll try this this evening > if nobody gets to it before. Actually, it's SYS 32800,123,45,6. You will need to be in BANK 15. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 30 07:54:45 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: from Huw Davies at "Mar 30, 5 10:51:30 pm" Message-ID: <200503301354.FAA15276@floodgap.com> > > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. > > Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid > > toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my > housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't > understand much of the dialog :-) I like the bit where they subtitle it during the party. ^_^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop ----------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 08:36:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:36:26 +0000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:51 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > On 30/03/2005, at 6:01 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. > > Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid > > toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my > housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't > understand much of the dialog :-) Try reading the book - it's entirely written in the same style as spoke Scottish, so is extremely heavy going. (I don't mind the dailogue in the film, but the book made my brain hurt!) Back on topic, does the correct pronunciation of kludge contain the 'd', or is it silent? 98% of people here in the UK seem to pronounce the d, but I've heard a few who don't. Mind you, 'bodge' is an equivalent and more commonly heard over here than kludge. cheers Jules From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 08:48:59 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:48:59 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:36:26 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 22:51 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 30/03/2005, at 6:01 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. > > > Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid > > > toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my > > housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't > > understand much of the dialog :-) > Back on topic, does the correct pronunciation of kludge contain the 'd', > or is it silent? 98% of people here in the UK seem to pronounce the d, > but I've heard a few who don't. Mind you, 'bodge' is an equivalent and > more commonly heard over here than kludge. Two separate words with different pronunciation, as per the jargon file and earlier discussion here. Kludge (kl-uh-j) and Kluge (kl-oo-j). I was surprised to find that a) I was wrong in assuming they were net-variants of the same term, and b) anyone would care to differentiate. -dhbarr. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 08:55:18 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:55:18 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Well, since the modern meaning of kludge has nothing to do with a toilet and much to do with a messed up arrangement, it would seem the reference to the French makes more sense. Also the French is from the 1910s so is about as early as any other. On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:01:27 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Huw Davies wrote: > > > > On 30/03/2005, at 11:57 AM, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >> I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think > >> it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the > >> standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. > > > > > > Well kludge has been in common use in Queensland (Australia) since at > > least the early 1900s as the name of an outside toilet. This probably > > pre-dates any computing reference :-) > > > > In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, > > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. Since > we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid toilet - > think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > Gordon. > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Mar 30 08:59:52 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Mar 30, 5 02:36:26 pm" Message-ID: <200503301459.GAA18976@floodgap.com> > Back on topic, does the correct pronunciation of kludge contain the 'd', > or is it silent? 98% of people here in the UK seem to pronounce the d, > but I've heard a few who don't. Mind you, 'bodge' is an equivalent and > more commonly heard over here than kludge. Strictly speaking, the "j" sound is composed of /d/ and /ch/ anyway. You might be observing someone over-emphasising the initial /d/. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Mar 30 09:06:53 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:06:53 +0100 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> References: <424A9DAD.70601@mdrconsult.com> <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050330160401.021c3ec0@slave> At 14:52 30/03/2005, you wrote: > > > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > > > > > 1. Boot machine > > > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > > > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed > > > > I have a C128D I need to pull out anyway. I'll try this this evening > > if nobody gets to it before. > >Actually, it's SYS 32800,123,45,6. You will need to be in BANK 15. That worked.... Output is: [quote begins] Brought to you by... Software: Fred Bowen Terry Ryan Von Ertwine Herdware: Bil Herd Dave Haynie Frank Palaia Link arms,don't make them. [quote ends] See a screen-grab here: http://helmies.org.uk/images/vice_c128_egg.jpg Cheers! Ade. From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Mar 30 10:39:49 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:39:49 +0100 Subject: Pinout/Replacement for Floppy Drive on HP 9133 Message-ID: <20050330134510.80DA039456@linux.local> Hi, i have a HP 9133 floppy/hard drive unit where the floppy disk drive doesn't operate anymore (it returns read errors only) ... ... my first idea was to use a replacement drive from a 9122C/D unit, but those, that i own, have another pinout; the 9122 have only one 34 ? pin connector whereas the 9133 floppy has two connectors, one standard power supply and another one having 26 pins. Are those somehow interchangeable ? Thanks Bernd From kth at srv.net Wed Mar 30 09:48:10 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:48:10 -0700 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> Huw Davies wrote: > > Well kludge has been in common use in Queensland (Australia) since at > least the early 1900s as the name of an outside toilet. This probably > pre-dates any computing reference :-) > > In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, We know you furriners don't know how to speak english properly, unlike us Americans [;)], so, how do you pronounce "judge" in Queensland? joo-j, jud-j, ju-ah-j, ja-j, ??? From kth at srv.net Wed Mar 30 09:55:58 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:55:58 -0700 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: <55c390986fd8347a8d84a1bbcaaba70f@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <55c390986fd8347a8d84a1bbcaaba70f@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <424ACC0E.6030705@srv.net> Huw Davies wrote: > > On 30/03/2005, at 8:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR >> there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least >> BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command >> line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings >> to stdout. >> >> Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? > > > bcd, ppt? Under RedHat9 Linux, its /usr/games/ppt for paper tape, /usr/games/bcd for cards, and /usr/games/morse for morse code. I believe these files came (were stolen) from bsd. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 30 10:28:48 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:28:48 -0800 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112200128.7938.6.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 05:26 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR > there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least > BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command > line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings > to stdout. > > Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? Banner? -- TTFN - Guy From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Mar 30 10:44:33 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:44:33 +0100 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050330174403.0223aec0@slave> At 16:48 30/03/2005, Kevin Handy wrote: >We know you furriners don't know how to speak english properly, unlike >us Americans [;)], so, how do you pronounce "judge" in Queensland? >joo-j, jud-j, ju-ah-j, ja-j, ??? I believe that in England, Judge is usually pronounced "M'lud"..... ;) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 30 11:34:04 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:34:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73 In-Reply-To: Eric Josephson "Re: formatting an RD54 with on a pdp11/73" (Mar 29, 16:32) References: Message-ID: <10503301834.ZM17051@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 29 2005, 16:32, Eric Josephson wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > I've never run ZRQC (or indeed most XXDPv2 diagnostics) the way you're > > doing it. Are you sure that works? > > I used the same method to format an rd54 a few weeks ago. > It worked fine for me. > > Thanks to Jonathan Engdahl for providing the details at: > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/xxdp.htm Yes, I remembered Jonathan's page just about the moment I hit "send" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Mar 30 11:42:44 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:42:44 -0500 Subject: Universal floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503280300.j2S30e9M096874@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200503301742.j2UHghHI003482@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Ok, so we've been discussing various ideas for a universal floppy disk controller. I bought (E-Bay) a used Microsolutions "Backpack" external parallel port floppy disk drive, it's a 3.5" 1.44MB drive. Internally, it is a standard drive (with a 34-pin standard interface) and a floppy to parallel port interface card. The question is -- and it's really a software question -- If I connect a 5.25" drive to the interface (using the standard 34-pin interface) will the device (or, perhaps more to the point, will it's drivers) work? I believe that they actually made a 5.25" model (with a 1.2 meg drive), but I have not been able to find one. The Format program that comes in the software packet has documentation suggesting that it can format a 1.2 meg and even a 360k drive, and I'm guessing that the interface card is the same for the 5.25" and 3.5" models. This might be the answer to being able to access 5.25" drives on a "modern" PC. It would be really cool if 22Disk would work with a drive connected to this thing. I plan to do some testing in the next week or so. It still doesn't solve the eight-inch problem, however. [I know, there's a chance that the controller could be made to work with 8" drives using a funky cable -- but first things first, 5.25" drives.] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 30 11:45:09 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:45:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape?" (Mar 30, 5:26) References: Message-ID: <10503301845.ZM17069@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30 2005, 5:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR > there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least > BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command > line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings > to stdout. > > Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? ppt(6) for paper tape form, bcd(6) for punch cards. In Seventh Edition, BSD, SunOS 4, and some Linux distros. I think I have the Seventh Edition source here somewhere if you want it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 30 11:56:40 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:56:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: origins of "kludge"" (Mar 30, 14:36) References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30 2005, 14:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > Back on topic, does the correct pronunciation of kludge contain the 'd', > or is it silent? 98% of people here in the UK seem to pronounce the d, > but I've heard a few who don't. Mind you, 'bodge' is an equivalent and > more commonly heard over here than kludge. "Bodge" doesn't mean the same thing at all. You're probably thinking of "botch", which means (v) to screw something up, or (n) something which is screwed up. "Kludge" means to make something work, but in an inelegant or clumsy fashion. "Bodge", however, means to adjust or adapt something carefully to fit, perhaps in a way not originally intended; "bodgers" were originally people who did the final fitting of parts to machines and the like. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 30 12:18:56 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: using a DRV11 to run an IDE drive? References: <000301c534fa$a9614640$6401a8c0@hal9000> <424A9DAD.70601@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <006001c53554$eff40980$3a92a8c0@maggie> I've seen an old PC trick that uses the printer port and custom cable to bit-bash interface an IDE hard drive or cdrom using a dos .sys driver. Anyone think it's possible to do the same with a DRV-11 for the pdp11? Features: built in BAR/WCR/CSR circuits, 16 bits in, 16 out. 6 function bits, Attention/Ready/Cycle Request/Bust handshake bits etc Perhaps a small pld or fpga could use the spare handshake or function bits to latch the 3 address bits for the IDE and generate the chip select/read-write etc while the 16 bit input and output busses could be joined via tri-state buffers... I'ts not a replacement for a scsi controller, but it beats hunting down the hard to find bus interface chips and provides a proven already working basic interface. I've got a dozen of the QBUS (and a few UNIBUS) DRx11 boards if someone is interested in fooling with the idea. As a side note - I recall UW's CCNG CE dept fashioned an early MP cluster called using DRV11s to connect LSI11-2s in the 80's. regards -h From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Mar 30 12:34:42 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:34:42 -0500 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <200503301800.j2UI0MhC031685@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050330131327.03032ca0@mail.degnanco.net> I believe you mean: SYS 32800,123,45,6 The text is (note the "herdware" is intentional): Brought to you by... Software: Fred Bowen Terry Ryan Von Ertwine Herdware: Bil Herd Dave Haynie Frank Palaia Link arms, don't make them. I took a quick picture and posted it ... http://vintagecomputer.net/commodore/128/easter_egg.jpg -Bill > > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > > > 1. Boot machine > > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 12:42:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:42:59 -0500 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: <55c390986fd8347a8d84a1bbcaaba70f@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <55c390986fd8347a8d84a1bbcaaba70f@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:09:20 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 30/03/2005, at 8:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > ... ISTR there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX... > > that could take a string... and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings > > bcd, ppt? Yep... those are them. Thanks! Seems that the machines I have access to do not have the old Berkely Games loaded. I might have found them sooner, otherwise. -ethan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Mar 30 05:48:55 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:48:55 +0100 Subject: New book Message-ID: <200503301148.MAA04400@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I've just received my copy of a new BBC/Granta book "Electronic Brains, Stories from the dawn of the Computer Age", author Mike Hally. ISBN 1 86207 663 4 I've not read it yet, but from a quick flip through it looks like an interesting, non-technical, account of the early years of computers in the USA, UK, Russia and Australia. Just thought you might be interested... Interest in classic/old computers seems to be entering the mainstream these days. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 12:50:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:50:10 +0000 Subject: Universal floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <200503301742.j2UHghHI003482@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200503301742.j2UHghHI003482@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <1112208610.11317.24.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 12:42 -0500, Barry Watzman wrote: > This might be the answer to being able to access 5.25" drives on a "modern" > PC. Semi-related, but I took one of their backpack CDROM interfaces apart a few years ago - it was all totally custom ICs inside, plus I know Microsolutions wouldn't publish any details on the control protocol. I expect you'll find the same thing with the floppy drive version. > It would be really cool if 22Disk would work with a drive connected to > this thing. I *expect* it's a pretty standard FDC chip and a bit of buffer / control parallel-port interface circuitry implemented on a custom chip - I doubt they'd go to the trouble of buffering raw tracks etc. and using the associated memory to do that. Which means you're probably limited to the same MFM formats that a normal PC FDC is capable of, and nothing more. Linux *might* support the backpack floppy drive; I can't remember... cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 12:52:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:52:41 -0500 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg In-Reply-To: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> References: <424A9DAD.70601@mdrconsult.com> <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:52:35 -0800 (PST), Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Actually, it's SYS 32800,123,45,6. You will need to be in BANK 15. Thanks, Cameron... that does it... works fine with VICE 1.14 (and probably other versions as well). -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Mar 30 12:51:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:51:49 -0500 Subject: Century Data Systems T-50 disks Message-ID: <200503301351.50090.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I picked up a bunch (5) of Century Data T-50s, (also labelled as "Diva" disk systems), which seem to be multi-platter 54.7MB removable 14" disk-pack drives. Of course, I didn't get any of the disk packs to go with them. My questions are: 1) Does anyone have any available disk packs, or know if they're interchangable with something else that is availble? 2) Does anyone want (some of) them? I don't want to give them up for nothing, but I'm not looking to get too much out of them, and I'd rather give them to someone who finds them useful than let them sit around, especially since I don't have any disk packs (yet). The drives are 150-200lbs each, and are rated at 4A at 208-240V (60Hz IIRC). There's a detailed manual on bitsavers about them: http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/centuryData/76205-902_tridentSpec_Nov80.pdf I also have the T2000 disk excerciser and T2001 head alignment boxes for the drives. I have no idea if any of this works; it was probably in storage for 10+ years, and the drives date back to about 1980. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Mar 30 13:00:12 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:00:12 +0200 Subject: using a DRV11 to run an IDE drive? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1B92@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Yes, it is possible to connect a DRV11 to an IDE disk drive. However, you must compromise. I connected a IDE disk drive to some simple parallel ports of the I/O Board. But it is PIO mode only, no DMA, so not really fast but it works. The lowest level software is fairly easy. Check www.pdp-11.nl and click on the link "Home-brew PDP-8". You can download the 6809 source code which even resembles (a little) PDP-11 mnemonics. I thought to get it working with 8 bits, but it is a lot easier if you have a 16-bit data path. That means 16 inport bits and 16 outport bits. Further you need a few (6?) extra output lines for control. So perhaps one DRV11 is just not sufficient, but I would say: yes, you can connect an IDE drive to one (or two) DRV11's. BTW, if an IDE hard disk works, I found out that a Compact Flash Card with IDE adapter works just fine too. Solid state disk on your PDP-11! - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 30-3-2005 20:18 Subject: using a DRV11 to run an IDE drive? I've seen an old PC trick that uses the printer port and custom cable to bit-bash interface an IDE hard drive or cdrom using a dos .sys driver. Anyone think it's possible to do the same with a DRV-11 for the pdp11? Features: built in BAR/WCR/CSR circuits, 16 bits in, 16 out. 6 function bits, Attention/Ready/Cycle Request/Bust handshake bits etc Perhaps a small pld or fpga could use the spare handshake or function bits to latch the 3 address bits for the IDE and generate the chip select/read-write etc while the 16 bit input and output busses could be joined via tri-state buffers... I'ts not a replacement for a scsi controller, but it beats hunting down the hard to find bus interface chips and provides a proven already working basic interface. I've got a dozen of the QBUS (and a few UNIBUS) DRx11 boards if someone is interested in fooling with the idea. As a side note - I recall UW's CCNG CE dept fashioned an early MP cluster called using DRV11s to connect LSI11-2s in the 80's. regards -h From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Mar 30 13:08:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:08:28 -0600 Subject: Universal floppy disk controller References: <200503301742.j2UHghHI003482@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <003c01c5355b$df0a56e0$193dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Barry Watzman" Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 11:42 AM > Ok, so we've been discussing various ideas for a universal floppy disk > controller. > > I bought (E-Bay) a used Microsolutions "Backpack" external parallel port > floppy disk drive, it's a 3.5" 1.44MB drive. > > Internally, it is a standard drive (with a 34-pin standard interface) and > a > floppy to parallel port interface card. > > The question is -- and it's really a software question -- If I connect a > 5.25" drive to the interface (using the standard 34-pin interface) will > the > device (or, perhaps more to the point, will it's drivers) work? > > I believe that they actually made a 5.25" model (with a 1.2 meg drive), > but > I have not been able to find one. The Format program that comes in the > software packet has documentation suggesting that it can format a 1.2 meg > and even a 360k drive, and I'm guessing that the interface card is the > same > for the 5.25" and 3.5" models. > > This might be the answer to being able to access 5.25" drives on a > "modern" > PC. It would be really cool if 22Disk would work with a drive connected > to > this thing. I plan to do some testing in the next week or so. It still > doesn't solve the eight-inch problem, however. [I know, there's a chance > that the controller could be made to work with 8" drives using a funky > cable > -- but first things first, 5.25" drives.] 22disk directly handles the FDC and ignores any devices attached as device drivers (except as to/from MSDOS). To use this would require figuring it out and writting all of your own software. I would expect it to be many times harder than making your own. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Mar 30 13:28:11 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:28:11 -0500 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel In-Reply-To: <200503301800.j2UI0MhC031685@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050330135030.0300dd00@mail.degnanco.net> Here are some digital pictures of my 8800b, they are not perfect, but I hope they will do. The camera lens creates a slight fish-eye effect unfortunately. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/altair8800b/pic1.jpg (taken by earlier owner) http://www.vintagecomputer.net/altair8800b/hi-res_front1.gif http://www.vintagecomputer.net/altair8800b/hi-res_front.jpg http://www.vintagecomputer.net/altair8800b/hi_res_front2.jpg http://www.vintagecomputer.net/altair8800b/hi-res_front_withdrive.gif Bill From Tim at rikers.org Tue Mar 29 15:27:14 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:27:14 -0600 Subject: Needed: HiRes scans of an Altair 8800b front panel In-Reply-To: <000a01c5349d$4faa2e30$0401010a@gizmo> References: <000a01c5349d$4faa2e30$0401010a@gizmo> Message-ID: <4249C832.3010208@Rikers.org> http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_altair_8800b_mainframe.asp has one that clearer, but not color and missing the logo bits -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From websupport at degnanco.com Tue Mar 29 17:08:58 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:08:58 -0500 Subject: Obscure DOS question Message-ID: Is that true of an entire drive or just the directory? >You can't actually write more files than the >file structure supports if APPEND is all the extra help you've got. > How about some fancy DOS batch file programming and use of LHA (a small compression program) to unpack and re-pack files only when needed on the fly? bill From mike at ambientdesign.com Tue Mar 29 22:23:12 2005 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:23:12 +1200 Subject: origins of "kludge" References: Message-ID: <00af01c534e0$2ff3e980$3d00a8c0@falco> > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not > > un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the > > Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as a cloche or > > later as a Kludge. > Interesting. I'd always assumed it was a corruption of some form > of the German word 'kluge' (clever). Me too. And I've seen a few etymologies/timelines that agree with that, the 'cloche' thing sounds a little far-fetched. But you never know... Here's a good summary of fairly official sources on this one: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kludge M. From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 29 23:03:52 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:03:52 -0500 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424A30F6.6030609@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200503300502.j2U52oaP025726@dewey.classiccmp.org> "The New Hacker's Dictionary", third edition, p. 272, states that kluge may date to 1919, from Kluge -- pronounced clew-gee -- the co-owner of a printing company. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Billy Pettit Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: origins of "kludge" > From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: > > KLUDGE > > The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an article > "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). > The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly matched > parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every computer > contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the users and > wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If there are > enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". > > By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, > documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition is > not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has > accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". As others have mentioned, the origin much older. There was a long thread on this someplace, maybe in Datamation, about the origin. It was certainly in use before WWII by maintainers of the punched card devices. It showed up in writing in a few articles during the '50's. > The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a > kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the > articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited > by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. > > -- F. Gruenberger I shall certainly try to find the book. I loved those articles. Read all of them when they came out. I still have two of them that I tore out of Datamation. Scans of them would be perfect for the readers of this list. I especially remember "How To Maintain A Kludge" subtitled "Craftily!" Paraphrasing, they had a hall of fame maintenance engineer who talked a customer into using a Kludge Komputer for 6 months even though it had a broken power on switch. Billy From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Mar 30 11:29:43 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:29:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of 'kludge' In-Reply-To: References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <32966.195.212.29.67.1112203783.squirrel@195.212.29.67> > > On 30/03/2005, at 6:01 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. >> Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid >> toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my > housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't > understand much of the dialog :-) The film is set in Edinburgh, and most of the actors are from Edinburgh. The people from the, uhm, less salubrious parts of Edinburgh (most of it, really) have a particularly impenetrable accent. Where I come from, up the far north-west, there isn't really an accent at all. Everyone thinks I was either a BBC newsreader or I went to a posh school (I did neither). The bit in the club where it was subtitles was because they were almost inaudible over the music *and* talking in a heavy dialect. Gordon. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 30 14:47:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:47:20 -0500 Subject: Pinout/Replacement for Floppy Drive on HP 9133 In-Reply-To: <20050330134510.80DA039456@linux.local> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050330154720.0079e390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:39 PM 3/30/05 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, >i have a HP 9133 floppy/hard drive unit where the floppy disk drive doesn't operate anymore >(it returns read errors only) ... >... my first idea was to use a replacement drive from a 9122C/D unit, Which model was it, a D, S or C? The S has a single DD drive, the D has two DD drives and the C has two QD drives. The drive in the C model is very different from the ones used in the S and D. Joe but those, that i own, >have another pinout; the 9122 have only one 34 ? pin connector whereas the 9133 floppy >has two connectors, one standard power supply and another one having 26 pins. Are those >somehow interchangeable ? > >Thanks Bernd > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 15:22:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:22:16 +0000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1112217736.11317.35.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 30 2005, 14:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Back on topic, does the correct pronunciation of kludge contain the > 'd', > > or is it silent? 98% of people here in the UK seem to pronounce the > d, > > but I've heard a few who don't. Mind you, 'bodge' is an equivalent > and > > more commonly heard over here than kludge. > > "Bodge" doesn't mean the same thing at all. You're probably thinking > of "botch", which means (v) to screw something up, or (n) something > which is screwed up. "Kludge" means to make something work, but in an > inelegant or clumsy fashion. "Bodge", however, means to adjust or > adapt something carefully to fit, perhaps in a way not originally > intended; "bodgers" were originally people who did the final fitting of > parts to machines and the like. Interesting - I've never heard that before. All the people I've known (until now! :) use bodge and kludge interchangeably, whilst as you say botch is something of a completely inferior class :-) I suppose it's more that I've always known people use kludge for any type of addition / fix / enhancement which wasn't forseen by the original designer - whether an elegant one or not! cheers J. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Mar 30 15:27:56 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:27:56 -0500 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <424B19DC.3000800@internet1.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > "Bodge" doesn't mean the same thing at all. You're probably thinking > of "botch", which means (v) to screw something up, or (n) something > which is screwed up. "Kludge" means to make something work, but in an > inelegant or clumsy fashion. "Bodge", however, means to adjust or > adapt something carefully to fit, perhaps in a way not originally > intended; "bodgers" were originally people who did the final fitting of > parts to machines and the like. From watching JunkYard Wars, or Scrap Heap Challenge as it is called in the UK, I thought Bodge was about the same as kludge, too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 15:23:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:23:19 +0000 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112217799.11317.37.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 18:08 -0500, Degnan Co. wrote: > Is that true of an entire drive or just the directory? > > >You can't actually write more files than the > >file structure supports if APPEND is all the extra help you've got. > > > > How about some fancy DOS batch file programming and use of LHA (a > small compression program) to unpack and re-pack files only when > needed on the fly? Didn't Stacker work with floppies as well as hard disks? ;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 15:31:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:31:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Mar 30, 5 05:13:59 pm Message-ID: > In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, I've also picked up the 'klduge' spelling and pronounciation. When I've got some piece of hardware going by dead-bugging in a totally different chip, of when I've manange to get 2 machines talking to each other by cutting an RS232 cable in half and joining the wires with a chocolate block [1], I've been known to paraody a line of Gilbert and Sulivan 'For I have a kludge, and a good kludge too' :-) [1] One of those plastic screw terminal blocks. Don't laugh, I actually did this once when I had to get two machines communicating and all I had was a pair of pliers and a small screwdriver... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 15:47:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:47:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pinout/Replacement for Floppy Drive on HP 9133 In-Reply-To: <20050330134510.80DA039456@linux.local> from "Bernd Kopriva" at Mar 30, 5 05:39:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > i have a HP 9133 floppy/hard drive unit where the floppy disk drive > doesn't operate anymore > (it returns read errors only) ... If the heads are still good [1], these drives can often be repaired. I have unofficial schematics for the FC9 and FC16 logic boards in front of me... > ... my first idea was to use a replacement drive from a 9122C/D unit, > but those, that i own, Something is sort-of telling me that the 9122C/D is a high density unit. You might get the drive to work, you might not. > have another pinout; the 9122 have only one 34 ? pin connector whereas > the 9133 floppy > has two connectors, one standard power supply and another one having > 26 pins. Are those > somehow interchangeable ? I have pinouts for some of these connectors : The 26 pin one (FC9, FC16 PCB) 1 Motor On/ --o o-- DS0/ Disk Chagne/ --o o-- DS1/ Change Rst/ --o o-- Step Direction/ Gnd --o o-- Step/ Gnd --o o-- Write Data/ Gnd --o o-- Write Gate/ Gnd --o o-- Head Load/ Gnd --o o-- Side Sel/ Gnd --o o-- Index/ Gnd --o o-- Track 00/ Gnd --o o-- Write Prot/ Gnd --o o-- Read Data/ Gnd --o o-- Ready/ Note that the DSn/ lines are binary encoded, not 1-of-n as on most other drives! This may not matter on a single-drive system. Power : 1 o-- +5V o-- Gnd o-- Gnd o-- +12V I have a pinout for a version of the 34 pin connector, used on the MP=-F52W-50 drive (FC26 PCB). I don't know if this applies to your unit (this drive is a double-density unit), but here you are anyway. 1 Change Reset/ --o o-- Dosk Change/ +5V --o o-- LED/ +5V --o o-- DS3/ +5V --o o-- Index/ +5V --o o-- DS0/ +5V --o o-- DS1/ Gnd --o o-- DS2/ Gnd --o o-- Motor On/ Gnd --o o-- Step Dir/ Gnd --o o-- Step/ Gnd --o o-- Write Data/ Gnd --o o-- Write Gate/ Gnd --o o-- Track 00/ Gnd --o o-- Write Prot/ +12V --o o-- Read Data/ +12V --o o-- Side Sel/ +12V --o o-- Ready/ Note that there are _many_ soldered links on this PCB. You can swap round the functions of pins 2 and 34, you can make all the odd-numbered pins ground (and have a separate 4 pin power connector), add motorised eject (with the input on pin 1) etc, etc, etc. The pinout I've given corresponds to the drive used in the HP9114B. Hope that is of some use to you -tony From dhbarr at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 16:06:38 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:06:38 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:31:25 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > > In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, > chip, of when I've manange to get 2 machines talking to each other by > cutting an RS232 cable in half and joining the wires with a chocolate > block [1], I've been known to paraody a line of Gilbert and Sulivan > [1] One of those plastic screw terminal blocks. Don't laugh, I actually > did this once when I had to get two machines communicating and all I had > was a pair of pliers and a small screwdriver... For testing a chip's output, (keyboard controller, I think), I cut and soldered the strands of an IDE cable to each of the 25 pins, and then fanned the other end out on a strip of duct tape. I duct taped the duct tape (odd thing to say) sticky side up to a bit of pasteboard, sharpied in some labels, and had filled in a graph paper with all printables in the ~150 combos pretty quickly. Oh yeah, now I remember why. Needed something to translate from 8-way joystick to keyboard presses for an emulator. Since this is now only remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? -dhbarr. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Mar 30 16:14:58 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:14:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Universal floppy disk controller Message-ID: <200503302214.OAA04656@clulw009.amd.com> Hi The external boxes that have tape drives would have to have a FDC in them. These tape drives were designed to be paralleled with the wires to a floppy. I'd suspect that the older ones may have the right kind of controller but may have a clock speed issue. Dwight >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Wed, 2005-03-30 at 12:42 -0500, Barry Watzman wrote: >> This might be the answer to being able to access 5.25" drives on a "modern" >> PC. > >Semi-related, but I took one of their backpack CDROM interfaces apart a >few years ago - it was all totally custom ICs inside, plus I know >Microsolutions wouldn't publish any details on the control protocol. I >expect you'll find the same thing with the floppy drive version. > >> It would be really cool if 22Disk would work with a drive connected to >> this thing. > >I *expect* it's a pretty standard FDC chip and a bit of buffer / control >parallel-port interface circuitry implemented on a custom chip - I doubt >they'd go to the trouble of buffering raw tracks etc. and using the >associated memory to do that. Which means you're probably limited to the >same MFM formats that a normal PC FDC is capable of, and nothing more. > >Linux *might* support the backpack floppy drive; I can't remember... > >cheers > >Jules > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 30 16:07:12 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:07:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: origins of "kludge"" (Mar 30, 16:27) References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <424B19DC.3000800@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10503302307.ZM17533@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30 2005, 16:27, Chad Fernandez wrote: > From watching JunkYard Wars, or Scrap Heap Challenge as it is called in > the UK, I thought Bodge was about the same as kludge, too. Meanings tend to evolve with common usage. Just as "kludge" is becoming less derogatory in some circles, so "bodge" becomes more so, especially as with "precision engineering", the art of the bodger (in the sense of someone employed as such) disappears. "Botch" still means something that fails to work, "bodge" works, "kludge" works, but is ugly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 17:32:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:32:35 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <24071392.1112007709362.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <24071392.1112007709362.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050330183235.1335d266.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:01:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Steve Thatcher wrote: > you can buy "brand new" copies of CP/M for the 820 from California > Digital. The last time I checked they had gotten rid of most > everything except CP/M and a few other things. > > http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm > > what their website doesn't mention is that it was for the Xerox 820 > and it is 5 1/4" format. I don't know about compatibility between > individual Xerox machines though. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher > I have a 'Big Board' system board. Is it likely this CP/M package would run on it? It's either a Xerox 820 'clone' or the Xerox is a 'clone' of it. Mine is a board that was used for years at Sperry in an embedded controller app and I replaced the original Monitor ROM into it a few years ago. It has the 50 pin Drive connector, but that can be worked around. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 17:36:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:36:26 -0500 Subject: one more time... Facit software? In-Reply-To: <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <008801c533d9$4fd1da80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <53469.207.145.53.202.1112046900.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <004401c533fe$cac0a620$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <43050.207.145.53.202.1112061891.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050330183626.6d84fc2a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:04:51 -0800 (PST) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Jay wrote: > > Was just looking for something more high level, and perhaps > > something that would read the data into a file, and let you edit it > > with something akin to a hex editor, then punch back out, etc. > > I use Emacs Hexl-mode for that. > > I've thought about compiling GNOME Hex Editor (ghex), but never have > gotten around to it: > http://library.n0i.net/linux-unix/applications/x/gnome/ghex/ > > I haven't tried DataWorkshop (written in Java), but it looks pretty > nice: > http://www.dataworkshop.de/ > > Maybe it would be reasonable to add paper-tape support to one of > those. > > A search for "hex editor" on freshmeat.net turns up quite a few other > programs as well, including at least four GPL'd text/curses-based > editors. > > Eric > For people familair with the vi editor, there is a 'binary' version of it called 'bvi' out there. It's an official 'package' on NetBSD and should build from source easily on any UNIX type system. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 17:46:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:46:44 -0500 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: <4248C34F.90604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > MS-DOS 3.3 has a limit of 512 entries in the root directory. I > > > have a need to put more than this. > > > > I seem to remember that the limit is actually 224. > > It's definitely 512 on DOS 3.3. > > > > Another question: > > > > > > When using the SUBST command in MS-DOS, you cannot aparently > > > substitute the C: drive. I seem to recall that MS-DOS 6.0 allowed > > > this, although I might be confusing that with the ability of > > > LANtastic to redirect the C: drive to a network drive. > > > > Checking 6.22 right here... works fine (I did "subst d: c:\"). So > > yes, you can. > > Hmm, cool. > > > > At any rate, what I'm trying to do is overcome the limit of 512 > > > file entries in an MS-DOS 3.3 root directory. > > > > SUBST won't help you do this unless you don't use a floppy at all, > > like: > > > > subst a: c:\temp > > > > ...which works fine. > > I'm not using floppies at all. This is with hard disks. > > > My question is: Why? > > I'm restoring files from VHS backup tapes. The files were all > originally stored and backed up from the root directory. On the tapes > I used to test my process, none had more than 512 files archived. The > backup software only restores *to the same exact drive and path* that > the files were archived from (in this case C:\). I'm running into > some tapes that have more than 512 files backed up frm the root > directory. These were done back in the 1980s. I can't figure out how > they did it, but there they are. > Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of C: does. This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst ?) From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Mar 30 17:52:21 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:52:21 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <42483E9B.AFCDDD0A@mindspring.com> <200503291643.j2TGhN3C014179@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <000d01c53583$849e1e30$0100a8c0@screamer> I don't think this information is at all correct. For HP's stand-alone BASIC... The PBS program allows you to reconfigure the BASIC SYSTEM binary image for non-standard hardware. The BASIC SYSTEM image is a complete stand-alone basic (single user only). It assumes you have a 12531 series serial interface in slot 11, and a reader in slot 12. It will run perfectly well without using PBS under this hardware config. This basic will run on any HP 1000 series CPU from the 2114 up to F-series machines, but not the A and L class CPU's. The source on the 2100 archive site is for a multi-user basic, not HP's 1968 stand-alone basic. These are two completely different peices of software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Bryan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:43 AM Subject: Re: hp2114 basic > On 28 Mar 2005 at 13:43, Tim Riker wrote: > >> Now I'm stumped on getting it bootstrapped. Not sure where to put the >> tty port number info. > > I've had a look at Jeff's page and a quick look at the software. There > are > two parts to the BASIC system: the interpreter itself, and a "preparer" > that configures the interpreter for the specific hardware on which it will > run. You run the preparer, which reads the unconfigured interpreter in > via > paper tape, configures it, and punches a new tape that is ready to run on > the specified hardware setup. Thereafter, you just load the prepared tape > and run it. > > Source files 1-9 assemble into the preparer, and 10-17 into the > interpreter. After assembly, the preparer is loaded (e.g., on SIMH), the > I/O slot number of the teletype is entered into the S register ("deposit S > 11" for SIMH), and the program is started at location 2 ("run 2"). It > will > print "PHOTO READER I/O ADDRESS?" and a whole bunch of other configuration > questions. > > You can verify this by using the pre-assembled "prepare.abs" and > "hpbasic.abs" files on Jeff's page. If the above doesn't work using the > files you assembled, then I'd suspect an assembly problem or transcription > error in the source files. > > Note that the interpreter doesn't use the MUX device (SIMH's 12920A > implementation), but only the 12531C TTY device. It supports four > terminals via four TTY cards. However, SIMH supports only one of each > device, so you'll only be able to use a single TTY. > > Finally, and not to chase you away from here :-), but there's a SIMH > users' > mailing list, where questions such as the issue of SIMH using 100% of the > CPU time have been discussed in some detail. Subscription instructions > are > available via the "Help with SIMH" link from the main SIMH Web page. > > -- Dave > > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Mar 30 17:54:39 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:54:39 -0500 Subject: HP Lamps References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050329230327.02dff9d8@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001101c53583$d6e8dc20$0100a8c0@screamer> Hmm, 2114's, 2115's, and 2115's all use higher voltage lamps for their front panels. I'm stumped on where a 5-volt bulb would be used, unless its the small solder in bulb that goes on the parity error option for a 2116. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: HP Lamps > Hi, > > I just found two small lamps in a HP packaging and was wondering if > someone knew for which system these are ? > Part number is 2140-0203 and the text on it says LAMP, INCAND. 5V > Written with a marker on the packag is STICKER LAMP and LOAD POINT > > Anyone any idea's ? It came with a bunch of HP1000 items. > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.mansier.net > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 30 17:56:09 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:56:09 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4248C34F.90604@oldskool.org> <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050330175355.04bac3e0@mail> At 05:46 PM 3/30/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some >higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? > Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of >C: does. >This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst?) We seem to be going around in circles on this one. I'll also wonder if it fails because there's no COMMAND.COM (or other system files) to reload on the suggested SUBST folder, and that it might succeed if it's there. Another trick might be to set up networking and share the C: root, and remove files dynamically as they show up during the restore process. - John From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Mar 30 18:04:08 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:04:08 -0500 Subject: origins of "kludge" References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> Message-ID: <002301c53585$29c55d50$0100a8c0@screamer> Um, bellcranks are still used to control planes today. It works perfectly well in my Cherokee 180. I think your way off base here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "Tom Jennings" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:37 PM Subject: Re: origins of "kludge" > Actually the term goes back much further than that. Back in the early > days of flying machines the French were in the forefront of aircraft > design. In the early days the use of a "stick" to control the flying > surfaces used various levers and lines. The French used a system > whereby the "stick" was connected to a bell shaped device with lines > connected to both the forward and aft sides of the bell that > controlled the elevators and lines connected to the right and left > sides of the bell to control the ailerons. When the bell was pushed > forward at the top the forward edge went down and the line was > extended and the rear edge went up, pulling on that line. This > deflected the elevator..etc...etc... > > This was a rather unwieldy system to say the least....but hell, what > would you expect from the French? > > The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not > un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the > Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as a cloche or > later as a Kludge. > > > > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings > wrote: >> I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think >> it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the >> standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. >> >> Man I wish I had a collection of pre-1980 DATAMATIONs! >> >> From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: >> >> KLUDGE >> >> The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an >> article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). >> The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly >> matched parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every >> computer contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the >> users and wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If >> there are enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". >> >> By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, >> documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition >> is not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has >> accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". >> >> The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a >> kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the >> articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited >> by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. >> >> -- F. Gruenberger >> >> [Said book found at abebooks...] >> > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > UltraVan #257 > CAL - 27 #221 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 30 18:09:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:09:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: from "David H. Barr" at Mar 30, 5 04:06:38 pm Message-ID: > joystick to keyboard presses for an emulator. Since this is now only > remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless > hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the > same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? This is probably on-topic. I did it almost 20 years ago, and it relates to a classic computer peripheral. I was given a Commodore 2023 printer (GPIB interface) because the bottom pin of the printhead was broken. Not having a printer on my PET, I wanted to get it going, but no way could I afford a new printhead [1]. So I did a real kludge. I shorted the outputs of the bottom and next-to-bottom drivers together, disconnecting the coil for the broken pin, so that both drivers operated the next-to-bottom pin. The result was a strange-looking, but readable font, and it sure beat copying down listings from the screen by hand. [1] It's actually the same as an Epsom printhead -- TX70 (or is it TX80) I think. I was given a large box of Epsom spares at a radio rally (basically, I was buying all the ancient computer stuff, and the chap gave me this rather than carry it home) with a suitable head in it, but I've never bothered to replace it. More fun to keep the kludge, I guess. Other kludges would include using a 6B pencil to repair the key contacts in a TRS-80 M4 keyboard, using 2lb fishing line as the transfer corona guard in Canon CX and SX printers, the 4 AA cells in a holder to replace the expensive lithium battery in this PC/AT (no, they don't last as long, but they're a lot cheaper to replace and easier to get), and more that I'll remember later. -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Mar 30 18:20:48 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:20:48 +0100 Subject: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? Message-ID: <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, Really pushing the boundaries of on-topicness here, but I've just been watching Die Hard (fairly good film as far as "omigod! he's got a gun! blast him!" type films go) and spotted what appeared to be a CDC rack in the background of the "computer room" scenes (well it certainly had "CONTROL DATA" printed vertically up one side). Coloured grey with blue doors and text. Anyone know what they are/were, just for curiosity's sake? I'd check google, but for some reason my router is refusing to forward HTTP (damn NAT keeps falling over). Later, -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Censorship is something ?????? ???? I do ??? like! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 30 19:09:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:09:52 +0000 Subject: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 01:20 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi folks, > Really pushing the boundaries of on-topicness here, but I've just been > watching Die Hard (fairly good film as far as "omigod! he's got a gun! blast > him!" type films go) and spotted what appeared to be a CDC rack in the > background of the "computer room" scenes (well it certainly had "CONTROL > DATA" printed vertically up one side). Coloured grey with blue doors and > text. Anyone know what they are/were, just for curiosity's sake? I'm sure I asked that same question the last time it was on TV - and if not, I meant to! :-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 30 19:32:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:32:47 -0500 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:06 PM 3/30/05 -0600, you wrote: Since this is now only >remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless >hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the >same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? I think my worst kludge was on the VW dune buggy that I built while in high school. I was running it in a cross country race one day and the trottle cable broke. In those days I always carried a roll of stainless steel safety wire (the modern equivelent of baling wire) so I broke out the safety wire and ran it out the back of the car and tied it to the trottle on the carburator. I held the roll in one hand and pulled on it to operate the trottle and drove with the other hand. I forget how I managed the shift lever! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Mar 30 19:37:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:37:48 -0500 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <002301c53585$29c55d50$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050330203748.0094c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm not so sure. I've never seen a bell shaped bellcrank (in fact, i don't even know why they call them that). I don't think what Tom was describing was a bellcrank. Joe At 07:04 PM 3/30/05 -0500, Bob wrote: >Um, bellcranks are still used to control planes today. > >It works perfectly well in my Cherokee 180. > >I think your way off base here. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Cc: "Tom Jennings" >Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:37 PM >Subject: Re: origins of "kludge" > > >> Actually the term goes back much further than that. Back in the early >> days of flying machines the French were in the forefront of aircraft >> design. In the early days the use of a "stick" to control the flying >> surfaces used various levers and lines. The French used a system >> whereby the "stick" was connected to a bell shaped device with lines >> connected to both the forward and aft sides of the bell that >> controlled the elevators and lines connected to the right and left >> sides of the bell to control the ailerons. When the bell was pushed >> forward at the top the forward edge went down and the line was >> extended and the rear edge went up, pulling on that line. This >> deflected the elevator..etc...etc... >> >> This was a rather unwieldy system to say the least....but hell, what >> would you expect from the French? >> >> The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not >> un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the >> Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as a cloche or >> later as a Kludge. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:57:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Jennings >> wrote: >>> I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think >>> it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the >>> standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. >>> >>> Man I wish I had a collection of pre-1980 DATAMATIONs! >>> >>> From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: >>> >>> KLUDGE >>> >>> The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an >>> article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). >>> The definition is given as "an ill-sorted collection of poorly >>> matched parts, forming a distressing whole". The design of every >>> computer contains some anomalies that prove to be annoying to the >>> users and wghich the designer wishes he had done differently. If >>> there are enough of these, the machine is called a "kludge". >>> >>> By extention, the term has come to be applied to programs, >>> documentation, and even computer centers, so that the definition >>> is not "an ill-conceiverd and hence unreliable system that has >>> accumulated through patchwork, expediancy, and poor planning". >>> >>> The first kludge article triggered five others ("How to maintain a >>> kludge", etc) in subsequent issues of _DATAMATION_. Four of the >>> articles may be found in the book _FAITH, HOPE AND PARITY_ edited >>> by Josh Moshman, Thompson Book Company, 1966. >>> >>> -- F. Gruenberger >>> >>> [Said book found at abebooks...] >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jim Isbell >> "If you are not living on the edge, well then, >> you are just taking up too much space." >> W5JAI >> UltraVan #257 >> CAL - 27 #221 >> > > > From dancohoe at oxford.net Wed Mar 30 20:11:16 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:11:16 -0500 Subject: Century Data Systems T-50 disks In-Reply-To: <200503301351.50090.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <006101c53596$ec2e7000$6501a8c0@dcohoe> Pat said....... > The drives are 150-200lbs each, and are rated at 4A at 208-240V (60Hz > IIRC). There's a detailed manual on bitsavers about them: > > http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/centuryData/76205-902_tri > dentSpec_Nov80.pdf > > I also have the T2000 disk excerciser and T2001 head > alignment boxes for > the drives. I have no idea if any of this works; it was probably in > storage for 10+ years, and the drives date back to about 1980. > Check the M. Farris site at http://www.mfarris.com/pack/cdc1.html looks like they are used on some CDC drives and likely others that I didn't look for yet. regards, Dan From william.layer at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 20:23:35 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:23:35 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <10503302307.ZM17533@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <424B19DC.3000800@internet1.net> <10503302307.ZM17533@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050330202335.2b09c366.william.layer@comcast.net> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:07:12 +0100 (BST) Pete Turnbull wrote: > Meanings tend to evolve with common usage. Just as "kludge" is > becoming less derogatory in some circles, so "bodge" becomes more so, > especially as with "precision engineering", the art of the bodger (in > the sense of someone employed as such) disappears. "Botch" still means > something that fails to work, "bodge" works, "kludge And let us not forget "The Artful Bodger".. the title given to a hints & tips / kinks & dodges column in a British journal; nor the term 'kink' as applied to a quick & dirty fix, sometimes called a 'dodge'. Could 'bodge' possibly be coined from the combination of 'bright', 'bastard', 'bugger' or 'bollocks' and 'dodge'? Gotta love Engrish. -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From william.layer at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 20:58:09 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:58:09 -0600 Subject: Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> References: <002001c5329e$df11e280$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <20050330205809.187ebbed.william.layer@comcast.net> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:30:31 -0700 "Bill Machacek" wrote: > Just thought I'd let the listees know that while visiting my local parts and equipment store today (which carries a large amount of discontinued and surplus items of all types), I noticed there was a whole aisle of electronic vacuum tubes there. As several others may have pointed out, you really need to know what you are buying whem it comes to old vacuum tubes. Most of the TV & Radio types were produced in legion, and plentiful stocks remained after the parts were obsoleted. The primary markets for vintage tubes, are fourfold: 1) Audiophiles, seeking rare manufactures of common types of audio tubes. 2) Antique radio enthusiasts, seeking hard-to-find types for old radios; manufacture can be of great interest, but less important to those who just want to get a piece working. 3) HAM enthusiasts, seeking hard-to-find and common types for RF power amps. 4) Repairers or enthusiasts of old instrumentaion / control / lab equipment, seeking generally common types of various manufacture. Having worked with, built and repaired tube equipment for over a decade, I can tell you that you really need to *know* what you are looking at when buying old tubes. The minutia are on a par with, but not quite as historically involved, as Japanase (Nihonto) swords. A small suitcase can literally hold either a fortune (might as well be crisp $100 bills) or be a suitable boat-anchor. As a sidenote, factory tube production went on up until the late 1980's or early 1990's in the USA, mostly for military contract use. Some of the tubes made during this late era were close to the best ever of their types.. I can think of the JAN/PHILIPS 6SN7GTA and 5814A as examples. Military tubes however, can be a real canard for the audiophile. Most people assume that a 'military grade' tube will be superior in audio performance to a similar civilian type; nothing could be further from the truth. As examples, the military types 6189 and 12AT7WA compare to civilian 12AU7 and 12AT7 respectively; but as audio tubes, they sound totally dreadful - literally, like breaking glass. In these lines, the term "JAN" refers to "Joint Army-Navy". On the converse, the afforementioned 5814A and 6SN7GTA compare to 12AU7 and 6SN7 civilian types, and are exceptional devices in terms of sonic performance. You can never tell until you sit down and objectively listen to them. Yep, I rambled. -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:24:30 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:24:30 -0600 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Well, mine was similar in that it involved a car. A 1962 Mercedes Benz that I was driving across the Sonoran Desert in northern Mexico. Suddenly the engine quit and all I could see for miles was sand and some very near starved Brahman cattle. The fuel pump diaphragm had sprung a major leak and no longer pumped gas. In the trunk I had some luggage. In the luggage were my wife's shower cap, some fingernail polish and some dental floss. I cut out a new diaphragm from the shower cap, glued it to the old diaphragm with fingernail polish and tied it to the center shaft with several wraps of dental floss. Then with more fingernail polish I sealed the gasket between the halves and put it all together. 45 minutes later I was on my way to Mazatlan. When I got there I started scouring the parts store for a new fuel pump but couldn't find one. Two weeks later when I got back to the states I had forgotten about the repair. I drove the car for another TWO (2) years and never thought about that repair again. I sold the car and to this day I would love to have been there when the first mechanic took that pump apart and saw that pretty flowered diaphragm. On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:32:47 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > At 04:06 PM 3/30/05 -0600, you wrote: > Since this is now only > >remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless > >hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the > >same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? > > I think my worst kludge was on the VW dune buggy that I built while in > high school. I was running it in a cross country race one day and the > trottle cable broke. In those days I always carried a roll of stainless > steel safety wire (the modern equivelent of baling wire) so I broke out the > safety wire and ran it out the back of the car and tied it to the trottle > on the carburator. I held the roll in one hand and pulled on it to operate > the trottle and drove with the other hand. I forget how I managed the shift > lever! > > Joe > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:47:42 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:47:42 +0800 Subject: Beautiful DECmate on eBay Message-ID: This is a beautiful specimen. On a pinetop worktable with FOUR RX01/02 floppies!! Starting at $200..someone please save this!! http://tinyurl.com/6p9mp /wai-sun From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 21:49:30 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:49:30 -0800 Subject: Popular Electronics Magazine Message-ID: <000a01c535a4$aae748c0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> For those of you that answered over 50 on the age question, you probably grew up reading Popular Electronics magazine. (For the U.S. folks anyway.) In the five year period between 1967 and 1971, Southwest Technical Products Corp. (SWTPC) published over 50 articles in Popular Electronics written by Daniel Meyer, Don Lancaster, Louis Garner and others. The idea was to write a construction article then sell the circuit board and kit of parts. Daniel E. Meyer started DEMCO in 1964 and incorporated as SWTPC in 1967. The company lasted until 1986 and had over 100 employees the 1970s. Don Lancaster was not an employee, he just got royalties. Around 1975 SWTPC came out with computer and terminal kits. Don Lancaster was turning out Cookbooks by then (RTL, TTL, CMOS, etc) and started doing musical projects for PAIA. They parted ways. I have been collecting old issues of Popular Electronics and Radio Electronics and scanning a selection of SWTPC projects. This is a history of kits like FM wireless microphones, reverb adapters, musical instruments, audio amps, strobe lights, digital clocks, and digital test equipment. Most of the members of this list have built several of these things over the years. For example, there are some Nixie tube projects in Feb 1970, Dec 1970 and Feb 1971. I have almost finished with Popular Electronics and have posted them to my web site. I will add to the Radio Electronics page next. (Thanks to Jay West for providing the space.) I am scanning the magazines at 300 dpi and storing them as tiff files. I downsize them to 150 dpi JPG files for the web. I have over 1.5 GB of magazine tiff files. I will make them available on a DVD ROM for those who want them. My whole web site will fit on a CD-ROM. I will provide details on how to get these in a few weeks. (I am not looking to make any money on this.) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/magazines.htm I also have a 1971 SWTPC catalog with a list of which Popular Electronics issue each product came from. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Catalog7/Catalog.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Mar 30 21:58:33 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:58:33 -0500 Subject: Popular Electronics Magazine In-Reply-To: <000a01c535a4$aae748c0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000a01c535a4$aae748c0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <424B7569.6060809@atarimuseum.com> Nice work Michael, thats a lot of work. Curt Michael Holley wrote: > For those of you that answered over 50 on the age question, you > probably grew up reading Popular Electronics magazine. (For the U.S. > folks anyway.) > > In the five year period between 1967 and 1971, Southwest Technical > Products Corp. (SWTPC) published over 50 articles in Popular > Electronics written by Daniel Meyer, Don Lancaster, Louis Garner and > others. The idea was to write a construction article then sell the > circuit board and kit of parts. Daniel E. Meyer started DEMCO in 1964 > and incorporated as SWTPC in 1967. The company lasted until 1986 and > had over 100 employees the 1970s. Don Lancaster was not an employee, > he just got royalties. > > Around 1975 SWTPC came out with computer and terminal kits. Don > Lancaster was turning out Cookbooks by then (RTL, TTL, CMOS, etc) and > started doing musical projects for PAIA. They parted ways. > > I have been collecting old issues of Popular Electronics and Radio > Electronics and scanning a selection of SWTPC projects. This is a > history of kits like FM wireless microphones, reverb adapters, musical > instruments, audio amps, strobe lights, digital clocks, and digital > test equipment. Most of the members of this list have built several of > these things over the years. For example, there are some Nixie tube > projects in Feb 1970, Dec 1970 and Feb 1971. > > I have almost finished with Popular Electronics and have posted them > to my web site. I will add to the Radio Electronics page next. > (Thanks to Jay West for providing the space.) I am scanning the > magazines at 300 dpi and storing them as tiff files. I downsize them > to 150 dpi JPG files for the web. I have over 1.5 GB of magazine tiff > files. I will make them available on a DVD ROM for those who want > them. My whole web site will fit on a CD-ROM. I will provide details > on how to get these in a few weeks. (I am not looking to make any > money on this.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/magazines.htm > > I also have a 1971 SWTPC catalog with a list of which Popular > Electronics issue each product came from. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Catalog7/Catalog.htm > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/2005 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Mar 30 22:11:47 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:11:47 -0500 Subject: Beautiful DECmate on eBay References: Message-ID: <00f101c535a7$c2167770$3a92a8c0@maggie> that link is broken.. it's really Decmate with PDP-8 Computer Item number: 5180062401 "Wai-Sun Chia" waisun.chia at gmail.com wrote: > This is a beautiful specimen. > On a pinetop worktable with FOUR RX01/02 floppies!! > Starting at $200..someone please save this!! From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Mar 30 22:40:17 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:40:17 -0800 Subject: Commodore 128 Easter Egg References: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <003301c535ab$bcc08320$6401a8c0@hal9000> Thanks to Cameron and Bill D. for pointing out my keyboard virus (i.e. typo: 32800 vs. 32400) for the Easter Egg. Best regards, Steven C. > > Does anybody have a Commodore 128 or a VICE emulator to try this ? > > > > 1. Boot machine > > 2. Type: SYS 32400,123,45,6 > > 3. A list of system programmers is displayed > > I have a C128D I need to pull out anyway. I'll try this this evening > if nobody gets to it before. >Actually, it's SYS 32800,123,45,6. You will need to be in BANK 15. From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 30 22:53:21 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:53:21 -0800 Subject: Popular Electronics Magazine Message-ID: <424B8241.8080100@ix.netcom.com> Michael, I think you are providing a great service. And your web site is an excellent example for all of us trying to save a little history of computers. Thank you. Count me in as one willing to buy any CD or DVD you produce. Do you have the issue that reviewed the PAIA 8700? I don't remember if it was RE or PE. But I do remember buying the computer from the reviewer. Then visiting the designer and finding he had also designed a EPROM burner and monitor to go with it. Don't know if it was ever released. The pace was so fast in those days that single boards machines were outpaced by the many systems. Billy From vrs at msn.com Wed Mar 30 22:53:27 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:53:27 -0800 Subject: PDP8/L Paper tapes online References: <4249DAAF.3000604@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann" > Hello, PDP8-enthusiasts! > > I recently got a very complete looking set of paper tapes for the PDP8/L. > All tapes are read in and ready for download on http://pdp8.hachti.de . > Feel free to copy and/or mirror the files. I would be glad to see my > tape images on bitsavers etc. Looks like they are there now. My collection just went up, too. Here's a link to an HTML index for mine (the index links to the images on bitsavers). http://mysite.verizon.net/res1ac3j/id21.html Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 23:25:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:25:06 -0500 Subject: Beautiful DECmate on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:47:42 +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > This is a beautiful specimen. > On a pinetop worktable with FOUR RX01/02 floppies!! The only thing about this DECmate I that is out of the ordinary is the second set of floppies... the pedestal and "pine top" are bog standard. My DECmate I happens to have the less common full desktop - one removes the keyboard tray from the pedestal, and replaces it with a tabletop bracket, then bolts on a 1m x 1.5m desktop that only has one set of legs (i.e., it would fall over if not attached to the DM I drive pedestal). One then puts the DECmate CPU on the desktop and sits with the drives facing the front, on the right side. > Starting at $200..someone please save this!! Not me... it's too rich for my blood, especially when one considers shipping (Montana is _way_ too far to drive). > http://tinyurl.com/6p9mp This did not work for me... I extracted the auction number (5180062401) and searched for it to find it. -ethan From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Mar 31 00:21:41 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:21:41 -0800 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <200503310022.j2V0M0KL036910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004d01c535b9$ea82cdf0$6501a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:23:12 +1200 > From: "Mike van Bokhoven" > Subject: Re: origins of "kludge" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <00af01c534e0$2ff3e980$3d00a8c0 at falco> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > The French word for "bell" is "cloche" which is pronounced not > > > un-similarly to kludge. Thus, this word was bastardized by the > > > Americans and an unwieldy arrangement came to be known as > a cloche or > > > later as a Kludge. > > Interesting. I'd always assumed it was a corruption of some form > > of the German word 'kluge' (clever). > > Me too. And I've seen a few etymologies/timelines that agree > with that, the > 'cloche' thing sounds a little far-fetched. But you never know... > > Here's a good summary of fairly official sources on this one: > > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kludge > > > M. That's probably correct. In the 1990s I retained Cal. Berkeley math wiz Elwyn Berlekamp as an expert on Reed-Solomon coding and he told me that "kludge" was a rough contraction of "collossal" and "huge". From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 31 01:29:50 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:29:50 +1000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> Message-ID: <1fe30a04e805ec819683280a2f5050c7@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 31/03/2005, at 1:48 AM, Kevin Handy wrote: > Huw Davies wrote: > >> >> Well kludge has been in common use in Queensland (Australia) since at >> least the early 1900s as the name of an outside toilet. This probably >> pre-dates any computing reference :-) >> >> In Queensland it's pronounced to rhyme with judge, > > We know you furriners don't know how to speak english properly, unlike > us Americans [;)], so, how do you pronounce "judge" in Queensland? > joo-j, jud-j, ju-ah-j, ja-j, ??? Rhymes with kludge :-) OK, jud-j, certainly not joo-j. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 31 01:31:59 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:31:59 +1000 Subject: origins of 'kludge' In-Reply-To: <32966.195.212.29.67.1112203783.squirrel@195.212.29.67> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <32966.195.212.29.67.1112203783.squirrel@195.212.29.67> Message-ID: On 31/03/2005, at 3:29 AM, gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >> >> On 30/03/2005, at 6:01 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. >>> Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid >>> toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. >> >> You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my >> housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't >> understand much of the dialog :-) > > The film is set in Edinburgh, and most of the actors are from > Edinburgh. > The people from the, uhm, less salubrious parts of Edinburgh (most of > it, > really) have a particularly impenetrable accent. Well that explains it. When I was last in Edinburgh I dropped into a pub (it was a hot day) and had an entertaining discussion with a local (I didn't understand a word). Apparently (according to the barman) he was offering to buy me a drink and got slightly annoyed that I didn't appear to want to accept. Just a simple language problem... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 31 01:34:30 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:34:30 +1000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <424B19DC.3000800@internet1.net> References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424A5CD7.5090008@gjcp.net> <1112193386.11317.5.camel@weka.localdomain> <10503301856.ZM17085@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <424B19DC.3000800@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5bb4ceaf53c3b193cd80698e9f38dd1c@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 31/03/2005, at 7:27 AM, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> "Bodge" doesn't mean the same thing at all. You're probably thinking >> of "botch", which means (v) to screw something up, or (n) something >> which is screwed up. "Kludge" means to make something work, but in an >> inelegant or clumsy fashion. "Bodge", however, means to adjust or >> adapt something carefully to fit, perhaps in a way not originally >> intended; "bodgers" were originally people who did the final fitting >> of >> parts to machines and the like. > > From watching JunkYard Wars, or Scrap Heap Challenge as it is called > in the UK, I thought Bodge was about the same as kludge, too. My usage (remember I lived in the UK when I was young) would be that a bodge would be a crude, inelegant, possibly temporary, fix where as a kludge is a more elegant work around for a problem. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 31 01:38:22 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:38:22 +1000 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <5b3e14b16a3186f88f7cbad9588bb822@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 31/03/2005, at 8:06 AM, David H. Barr wrote: > Oh yeah, now I remember why. Needed something to translate from 8-way > joystick to keyboard presses for an emulator. Since this is now only > remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless > hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the > same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? A three phase double adapter. Even more scary was that the voltages on each of the two sockets differed by 10s of Volts even though they were wired directly together. Still I managed to run two VAX-8800s with it (temporarily you understand). In this case, temporarily might be longer than normal practice might indicate was prudent :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Mar 31 01:51:30 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:51:30 -0500 Subject: Drivers for Old Mac Nubus Cards (from 1993 and before) References: <20050329174922.L890@localhost> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <424ACA3A.2010902@srv.net> <1fe30a04e805ec819683280a2f5050c7@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <009c01c535c6$737a9fa0$0500fea9@game> I have a bunch of cards for old Nubus Macs I can't find drivers for. Anybody happen to have ones for these cards?: Spectral Innovations, Inc 1993 macDSP II/C Rev B (DSP Card) Nuport II by Micronet FCCID:HEQ297NP Model: NP-2 1991 By Micronet tech, Inc P/N 9101675-02 (50 Pin SCSI card, only driver I seen was password protected) Sigma Designs 1991 DoubleUp Rev 2.11 Roms: DUAM2 2.00 (Hardware disk compression board) Storm technology, In 1992 SCNB-1.0 (another DSP card) Supermac 1991 1002259-001A Spigot Nubus Version 1.0 ROM ASSY:0007532-0001 Rev A (The first Supermac Spigot video capture card with just 1 RCA input for video, I found some kind of OS 6 driver but not sure about it) Thanks From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Mar 31 02:18:41 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:18:41 +0100 Subject: GE Terminet cassette drive Message-ID: <200503310818.JAA14893@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, On UK eBay atm there's a cassette drive for a GE Terminet. We used Terminets in our place, but I don't recall ever seeing a cassette drive, anyone know anything about them? If it's stays cheap I might put in a bid just for the interest, and mebbe I'll find a Terminet one day... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5764161596&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 31 03:45:18 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:45:18 -0500 Subject: rsx11m v3.0 default account ? References: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> <003301c535ab$bcc08320$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <016a01c535d6$59458950$3a92a8c0@maggie> I've picked up a an rd53 and it happens to have rsx11m 3.0 with decnet and a basic +2 compiler. Before overwriting the drive with bsd, I'd like to logon and see what's there- are there any default accounts I could try or is there a way to break the startup and bypass login? I remember vms had a boot with parm altauth table ;) h From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 04:21:17 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:21:17 +0800 Subject: rsx11m v3.0 default account ? In-Reply-To: <016a01c535d6$59458950$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200503301352.FAA13684@floodgap.com> <003301c535ab$bcc08320$6401a8c0@hal9000> <016a01c535d6$59458950$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: Before you format it, perhaps it is a good idea to preserve the contents with a dd and put it up on a website somewhere? This will be good for people who wants to try RSX-11/M (like me :-) but don't have the media.. On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 04:45:18 -0500, Heinz Wolter wrote: > I've picked up a an rd53 and it happens to have > rsx11m 3.0 with decnet and a basic +2 compiler. From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Mar 31 06:28:28 2005 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 06:28:28 -0600 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002a01c535ed$2462c060$6401a8c0@barton> My kludge was on a Mac SE 30 I had been given for free, it was my first mac in the collection. It wouldn't boot, took it apart, problem was obvious, last stick of RAM wasn't snapped in because one side of the little plastic clips was broken off. Wanting to see if it worked, I took a Q-tip, snapped both heads of so it was just long enough to hold the stick upright against the back of the MB chassis. This was performed in 1996, it still runs today like that :) From d_l_mcd at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 07:30:38 2005 From: d_l_mcd at hotmail.com (Dan McDonald) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:30:38 -0500 Subject: C64 and Vic-20 Stuff Available near Salem, Oregon Message-ID: My Dad is on a cleaning-out binge, and he is ready to landfill several boxes of C-64 and Vic-20 stuff. If anybody could make better use of it, please email me and I'll get you in touch with him. This is for you-pick-it-up-only, no shipping available. A small donation to him would be appreciated, but he really just wants to get rid of the stuff. He is between Dallas and Monmouth, Oregon. Salem is about 22 miles East from there. Here is his description: --------------- Commodore stuff. Lots of it. Boxes of it. 64 and vic 20. stuff like: RUN commodore mags in late 80's; programmers reference guide; maybe a dozen games, Q-bert e.g.; COMREX CR 220 dot matrix printer (in box) Some commodores are in origional boxes. power supplies, game controllers. --------------- email me at: danmNO at soverSPAM.net or d_l_mcd at hotmail.com There's also a Friden electro-mechanical calculator and a bunch of other stuff. It's all going to the landfill soon if nobody goes to get it. Happy Spring Cleaning, Dan McDonald Bellows Falls, Vermont USA From tim at tim-mann.org Wed Mar 30 22:38:46 2005 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:38:46 -0800 Subject: origins of "kludge" Message-ID: <20050330203846.0bb6e049@giga.mumblefrotz.org> > I know this could be the start of YET ANOTHER thread "Oh I think > it's older than that..." but to avoid that, let's raise the > standard from opinion/hearsay to printed word. > > From _ENCYCLOPEDIA OF COMPUTER SCIENCE_(Van Nostrand), 1976: > > KLUDGE > > The word "kludge" is a term coined by Jackson Granholm in an > article "How to design a kludge" in _DATAMATION_ (February 1962). Yep, it's way older than that. According to the Jargon File (which has also appeared in print in various editions, and which I'd trust a lot more than some random Van Nostrand "encyclopedia"), the above would be a reasonable statement if you replace "coined" by "popularized": kluge ... The variant 'kludge' was apparently popularized by the Datamation article mentioned under kludge; it was titled How to Design a Kludge (February 1962, pp. 30, 31). ... For all the details, see http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/K/kluge.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/K/kludge.html -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From allain at panix.com Thu Mar 31 09:40:44 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:40:44 -0500 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <005f01c53608$0117c360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Well, mine was similar in that it involved a car. A 1962 Mercedes Warning... Subject Drift. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 31 09:57:19 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:57:19 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <000d01c53583$849e1e30$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> On 30 Mar 2005 at 18:52, Bob Shannon wrote: > I don't think this information is at all correct. > > For HP's stand-alone BASIC... I'm unclear here; to what specifically is "this information" above referring? You describe the operation of an HP product, but the program on Jeff's site isn't an HP product. The source starts off with: * TIME-SHARE BASIC DRIVERS AND MONITOR * * KILE B. BAKER * JOHN S. SHEMA * * DATA RECORDING CENTER * * MONTANA STATE UNIVERSITY ...and it appears on HP's LOCUS ("Library of Contributed User Software") tape as items 22255-60001 and 22255-60002. So we're speaking of two different products. > It assumes you have a 12531 series serial interface in slot 11, and a > reader in slot 12. It will run perfectly well without using PBS under > this hardware config. HP BASIC might, but the MSU BASIC under discussion won't. See, for example, the "CHIN1" routine in source file 6: LIA 0 LOAD CHARACTER [...] OTB 0 NO, OUTPUT TTY BOARD COMMAND STC 0,C START INPUT All of the I/O instructions default to select code 0 and must be configured to the actual TTY select code. > The source on the 2100 archive site is for a multi-user basic, not > HP's 1968 stand-alone basic. Yes. > These are two completely different peices of software. Hence my confusion with your first sentence. -- Dave From kth at srv.net Thu Mar 31 10:01:01 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:01:01 -0700 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4248C34F.90604@oldskool.org> <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <424C1EBD.20707@srv.net> Scott Stevens wrote: >On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> >> >>I'm restoring files from VHS backup tapes. The files were all >>originally stored and backed up from the root directory. On the tapes >>I used to test my process, none had more than 512 files archived. The >>backup software only restores *to the same exact drive and path* that >>the files were archived from (in this case C:\). I'm running into >>some tapes that have more than 512 files backed up frm the root >>directory. These were done back in the 1980s. I can't figure out how >>they did it, but there they are. >> >> >> > >Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some >higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? > Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of >C: does. > >This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst >?) > > 1. If you had one of the multi-user dos clones, you could then move the files out of the root directory while it was loading new ones in. You'd have to be careful not to move one that was being created. Maybe you could write a TSR that would do that for you under normal DOS. 2. Does FreeDOS (http://freedos.org) have something that would help? Maybe a different file system. From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 31 10:39:50 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:39:50 -0600 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331102450.0b92bd28@localhost> Maybe this doesn't count as a kludge... Once I was riding my cycle down to a guy's house to help him get HIS cycle started. In the alley was some busted pavement and gravel, and going less than a mile an hour, with my big tool case strapped behind me, I dumped the bike... ...and broke my foot. I couldn't walk, put weight on it, or anything. My buddy was storing the bike at a friend's house, who wasn't home. He'd walked. No car. Scratched my head, figured it was my right foot, so as long as I made darn sure I shifted all to way down to first (with my left foot) before I stopped, I could ride home. I needed my left foot on the ground, so left-foot (rear wheel) braking was pretty much out of the question, but once slowed down, I could hold the bike with the front brakes using might right hand. Once my foot was on the ground, how was I going to shift unless I was already moving and could balance? By stopping in first and holding the clutch in at stoplights. I rode over to Columbia hospital's ER, put the machine on its side stand, and hopped on one foot to the intake desk, hopped up onto the desk and sat on it looking down at the admitting clerk. She was not amused. Got X-rays and taped it up, told to get it casted tomorrow, made it almost all the way home without forgetting to stop in first gear... arrrg. Had to lay down on the tank, transferring my left hand to the clutch, reach my right all the way down to the gear shift, foot shrieking in pain, and drop it into gear. Couldn't even drive a car with the cast-- but I could ride the KZ! and I did. All summer. At 09:24 PM 3/30/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Well, mine was similar in that it involved a car. A 1962 Mercedes >Benz that I was driving across the Sonoran Desert in northern Mexico. >Suddenly the engine quit and all I could see for miles was sand and >some very near starved Brahman cattle. The fuel pump diaphragm had >sprung a major leak and no longer pumped gas. > >In the trunk I had some luggage. In the luggage were my wife's shower >cap, some fingernail polish and some dental floss. I cut out a new >diaphragm from the shower cap, glued it to the old diaphragm with >fingernail polish and tied it to the center shaft with several wraps >of dental floss. Then with more fingernail polish I sealed the gasket >between the halves and put it all together. > >45 minutes later I was on my way to Mazatlan. When I got there I >started scouring the parts store for a new fuel pump but couldn't find >one. Two weeks later when I got back to the states I had forgotten >about the repair. I drove the car for another TWO (2) years and never >thought about that repair again. I sold the car and to this day I >would love to have been there when the first mechanic took that pump >apart and saw that pretty flowered diaphragm. > >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:32:47 -0500, Joe R. wrote: > > At 04:06 PM 3/30/05 -0600, you wrote: > > Since this is now only > > >remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless > > >hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the > > >same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? > > > > I think my worst kludge was on the VW dune buggy that I built while in > > high school. I was running it in a cross country race one day and the > > trottle cable broke. In those days I always carried a roll of stainless > > steel safety wire (the modern equivelent of baling wire) so I broke out the > > safety wire and ran it out the back of the car and tied it to the trottle > > on the carburator. I held the roll in one hand and pulled on it to operate > > the trottle and drove with the other hand. I forget how I managed the shift > > lever! > > > > Joe > > > > > > >-- >Jim Isbell >"If you are not living on the edge, well then, >you are just taking up too much space." >W5JAI >UltraVan #257 >CAL - 27 #221 Question _your own_ authority. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Mar 31 10:58:54 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:58:54 +0100 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <1112217799.11317.37.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1112217799.11317.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <424C2C4E.4010606@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Didn't Stacker work with floppies as well as hard disks? ;-) Yes, and it worked with RAM disks too. So if you wanted to compress a lot of files up more-or-less instantly for sending somewhere, set up a Stackered ramdisk, then pap the Stacker volume file over the wire... Gordon. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Mar 31 11:03:11 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:03:11 +0100 Subject: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <221d5b544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1112231392.11253.43.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm sure I asked that same question the last time it was on TV - and if > not, I meant to! :-) Heh. I've just spent the last hour looking for photos of some CDC machines to compare against. Nothing :-/ Going by the timeframe, I'd guess it was one of the later CDC Cyber machines, but the ?1,000,000 question is which one... Aaanyway, I've just bought a copy of "PET and the IEEE-488 interface" for a little under ?8 (due to arrive in a few days - mwahaha), not to mention the big box of surplus electronic bits that cost me ?55... Speaking of which.. has anyone got some spare 10-32 bolts and locking washers? I need at least ten of each. They seem to be like gold dust in the UK - all the suppliers I've tried only carry the metric M-series and imperial -BA series. Failing that, the contact details for someone in the UK that stocks 10-32 hardware would be most appreciated :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Flash Gordon exposed himself to all sorts of danger. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 11:46:41 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:46:41 +0200 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong with this. Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.mansier.net From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 11:47:04 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick ethernet) terminator ? Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.mansier.net From dhbarr at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 12:01:30 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:01:30 -0600 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan wrote: > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick ethernet) > terminator ? Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI transcievers, vampire clamps, and so forth? -dhbarr. PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's on it and a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking about the same things? From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 31 12:08:51 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:08:51 -0500 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong > with this. I believe it's an extender board used with a PDP-11/34 FP11-A Floating Point unit, but I don't really know anything else about it or if it can be used for other purposes. Ashley From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 31 12:11:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:11:38 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <16972.15706.420000.346981@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan writes: Stefan> This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you Stefan> guys; is this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a Stefan> 10base5 (thick ethernet) terminator ? Maybe, but maybe not. It looks more like a used "N" type coax connector, crimp style, that has had the cable pulled off. But you can't actually tell from this end; if it's a used connector, the back end would be open (you could look into the guts). If it's a terminator, the back end would look like a closed metal cylinder, inside of which is a 50 ohm resistor. You can check with an ohm-meter -- you should see 50 ohms between the pin and the cylindrical contact. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 31 12:13:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:13:34 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <16972.15822.320000.745518@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David H Barr writes: David> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan David> wrote: >> This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is >> this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick >> ethernet) terminator ? David> Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI David> transcievers, vampire clamps, and so forth? Yes, but the cable is 50 ohm coax, roughly the size of RG-8, with N connectors. David> PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's David> on it and a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking David> about the same things? Indeed. If you have BNC connectors, then you have 10Base2 ("Thinnet"). And the thing on the end is a terminator, not a reflector -- its job is to PREVENT reflections... paul From James at jdfogg.com Thu Mar 31 12:16:03 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you > guys; is this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a > 10base5 (thick ethernet) terminator ? This is an "N" type connector. I thought 10base5 used PL259's (single unshielded pin in the center, screw shell). From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 31 12:15:33 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:15:33 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200 Stefan wrote: > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick > ethernet) terminator ? Yes. At least it has the type N connector usually found on the RG213 style cable used for thick Ethernet. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 31 12:15:55 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:15:55 -0800 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200503311015.55702.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 31 March 2005 09:46, Stefan wrote: > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong > with this. This is an extender board for testing an 11/34A floating point processor. You put the FP Processor (FP11-A,M8267) on an extender board, connect the W9042 to the CPU, use the over-the-top connector between the W9042 and the FP11-A and you have the only practical way to test an FP11-A on an extender board!!! You have a great find. They are fairly rare. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wacarder at usit.net Thu Mar 31 12:14:14 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:14:14 -0500 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if > they belong > > with this. > > I believe it's an extender board used with a PDP-11/34 FP11-A > Floating Point unit, but I don't really know anything else about it or if > it can be used for other purposes. > > Ashley An extender board is typically used to bring the signals from the backplane up to a height where you can access them with a scope or voltmeter or put in a special debugging card with lights, etc. It makes testing and debugging easier. Others who have dealt with these things more that I have can offer a more detailed explanation. Ashley From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 31 12:17:36 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:17:36 -0800 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: From: "Stefan" > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong > with this. Is it one of these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5176602331&rd=1 If so, I gather it is an extender board used to help bring an FP-11A out to where you can debug it. Here's an FP-11A: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5178659218&rd=1 So I assume it has something to do with the connectors on the top of it. Sorry I can't help more, but I'm not much of an expert on PDP-11s (though I do have an 11/34A I haven't done anything with yet...). Vince From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 12:29:26 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:29:26 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331202838.03442008@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hehe, could be I am mixing a dozen different things here... :-P I have several of these and some of them say 50 Ohm. At 20:01 31-3-2005, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan wrote: > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this > > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick ethernet) > > terminator ? > >Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI transcievers, >vampire clamps, and so forth? > >-dhbarr. > >PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's on it and >a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking about the same >things? ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 31 12:28:57 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:28:57 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? The cable side tip doesn't look like its a cap with a resistor in it, looks like a standard tip with a cable pulled off of it. Curt Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200 >Stefan wrote: > > > >>This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this >>http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick >>ethernet) terminator ? >> >> >Yes. At least it has the type N connector usually found on the RG213 >style cable used for thick Ethernet. > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 31 12:32:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:32:26 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <16972.16954.947832.928747@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "James" == James Fogg writes: >> Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? >> >> This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is >> this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick >> ethernet) terminator ? James> This is an "N" type connector. I thought 10base5 used PL259's James> (single unshielded pin in the center, screw shell). Absolutely not. PL259 connectors suck far too much for that application. The Ethernet spec in available at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/ethernet/ -- it has all the details. paul From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Mar 31 12:42:56 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:42:56 -0800 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200503311042.56343.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 31 March 2005 10:17, vrs wrote: > From: "Stefan" > > > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong > > with this. > > Is it one of these? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5176602331 >&rd=1 That indeed is one (that I purchased ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 12:58:51 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:58:51 +0200 Subject: Extender Board (5012447D) In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194340.028ea6a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331205656.03462178@mail.zeelandnet.nl> At 20:17 31-3-2005, you wrote: >From: "Stefan" > > Can anybody tell me what an Extender Board is ? > > It has part number 5012447D (with behind it also the text W9042). > > It also comes with two 70-11411-1D cables but I dont know if they belong > > with this. > >Is it one of these? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5176602331&rd=1 Yup, spot on. The text on the back is a little different but the board itself and also the cables look 100% identical!! Thanks for the help guys!! If anybody is interested in it btw, let me know, willing to swap or something (since I don't have any DEC machines anymore). Stefan. http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 31 12:58:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:58:17 -0800 Subject: TermiCette Model 3120 Magnetic Tape Unit Message-ID: <424C4849.F3418F08@rain.org> Has anyone heard of this unit? I've done a Google search with no hits. In putting together my collection of documentation, I ran across this manual. Thanks! From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 31 13:15:13 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:15:13 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? It can't be Twinax - Hence the name, Twinax has 2 center conductors, which come out to 2 center pins, not just one. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 31 13:38:42 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:38:42 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050331213842.3699f647.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:28:57 -0500 "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? This is a N connector for sure. I own thick Ethernet transceivers, cables, terminators etc. with this connectors and I also use N connectors for my WLAN antennas. BTW: You can use N-to-BNC adapters and connect thick to thin Ethernet this way. This is not covered by any Ethernet standard, but it works. (At least for the short cables I used when I tried this.) > The cable side tip doesn't look like its a cap with a resistor in it, > looks like a standard tip with a cable pulled off of it. Yes, it may be a connector for RG58 style cable. But a terminator should be easy to distinguish from a connector by looking at the backside. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 31 13:49:10 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:49:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: "David H. Barr" "Re: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ?" (Mar 31, 12:01) References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <10503312049.ZM19457@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 31 2005, 12:01, David H. Barr wrote: > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan wrote: > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this > > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick ethernet) > > terminator ? > > Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI transcievers, > vampire clamps, and so forth? To be picky, DIX != thick Ethernet, or more exactly DIX != 10base5. 10base5 uses thick coax but it works slightly differently to DIX. Yes, they use AUI cables and transceivers with a DA15 connector with that horrible slidelock, and they use vampire clamps on some of the taps (last time I fitted one was for a demo two weeks ago), but the "Ethernet" cable is the thick coax, with N connectors. > PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's on it and > a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking about the same > things? You mean a terminator. And the BNCs are thinnet, aka cheapernet, 10base2. Same speed as 10base5, but shorter (185m per segment instead of 500m), and with fewer allowed active connections per segment, and different rules about spacing the taps, which are BNC T-pieces. If Stefan's N connector has a 50-ohm resistor in it, it's a 10base5 terminator. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 14:14:39 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:14:39 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <20050331213842.3699f647.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> <20050331213842.3699f647.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331221404.036e7fd8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I'm 100% convinced now from all the reply's that these indeed are terminators. Thanks all!! Stefan. At 21:38 31-3-2005, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:28:57 -0500 >"Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > > Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? >This is a N connector for sure. I own thick Ethernet transceivers, >cables, terminators etc. with this connectors and I also use N >connectors for my WLAN antennas. > >BTW: You can use N-to-BNC adapters and connect thick to thin Ethernet >this way. This is not covered by any Ethernet standard, but it works. >(At least for the short cables I used when I tried this.) > > > The cable side tip doesn't look like its a cap with a resistor in it, > > looks like a standard tip with a cable pulled off of it. >Yes, it may be a connector for RG58 style cable. But a terminator should >be easy to distinguish from a connector by looking at the backside. >-- > > >tsch??, > Jochen > >Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 14:21:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:21:43 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:28:57 -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? The > cable side tip doesn't look like its a cap with a resistor in it, looks > like a standard tip with a cable pulled off of it. Twinax has two conductors... that's why it's called 'twin-ax'... Twin Axial Conductors. The picture looks to me like an N connector (which _was_ one of the connectors used for 10Base5 terminators and intrusive taps). Not sure if that is a terminator or not, but as already pointed out, if you get 50 ohms between the center conductor and the shell, that will show it for sure. -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 31 14:27:40 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:27:40 -0600 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl><20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><424C4169.5010702@atarimuseum.com><20050331213842.3699f647.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331221404.036e7fd8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <000a01c53630$16137070$0b7ba8c0@randylaptop> From: "Stefan" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:14 PM > I'm 100% convinced now from all the reply's that these indeed are > terminators. > Thanks all!! > > Stefan. You can be 110% sure by measuring resistance between tip and shield, ~50ohms and it's a terminator. Randy From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 31 14:38:07 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:07 -0600 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> No. Thicknet used N connectors. It was (as someone else pointed out) not the one that used BNC connectors (That's thinnet or 10Base-2) nor Tees (Also 10Base-2). It was (is-- I still have a spool of it!) 50 ohm coax with N connectors, and paint marks at every meter boundary. You had to terminate each run of thicknet end each end (that's two ends, for those who are counting). You had to tap it with a vampire tap ONLY ON THE 1 METER MARKS using a tap drill tool that would core into the shield and expose the center conductor. You had to be very careful not to nick the center conductor too much, or you would cause an impedance "bump" at that point, and partial reflections. You also had to use a good tap tool, not a cheapo, so as to make clean holes, because god help you if you got stray braid in the hole and shorted it. With the tap in place, a transceiver was bolted to it, usually I used Cabletron, Lantronix, or DEC. Then you carefully made sure the "heartbeat" switch was OFF, plugged in a 15-pin AUI ("DIX" = DEC Intel Xerox, I think) cable, which ran to a concentrator of some kind. We were using DEC DEQNA or DEMPR products, as I recall. One of them fanned out into a large number of thinnet runs. I'm still looking for specs on thicknet cable-- I know the characteristic impedance is 50 ohms, but if I knew the velocity factor and losses at VHF (144 - 148 mhz) and UHF (430 - 450 MHz) I could use the stuff for my amateur radio hobby. As it is, it's gathering dust. HTH, Tom At 01:16 PM 3/31/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? > > > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you > > guys; is this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a > > 10base5 (thick ethernet) terminator ? > >This is an "N" type connector. I thought 10base5 used PL259's (single >unshielded pin in the center, screw shell). [Aging] No woman should ever be quite accurate about her age. It looks so calculating. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 31 14:42:19 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:42:19 -0600 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <10503312049.ZM19457@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"David H. Barr" <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331144140.0ac24f20@localhost> At 08:49 PM 3/31/2005 +0100, you wrote: >On Mar 31 2005, 12:01, David H. Barr wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan >wrote: > > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is >this > > > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick >ethernet) > > > terminator ? > > > > Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI transcievers, > > vampire clamps, and so forth? > >To be picky, DIX != thick Ethernet, or more exactly DIX != 10base5. > 10base5 uses thick coax but it works slightly differently to DIX. > Yes, they use AUI cables and transceivers with a DA15 connector with >that horrible slidelock, and they use vampire clamps on some of the >taps (last time I fitted one was for a demo two weeks ago), but the >"Ethernet" cable is the thick coax, with N connectors. > > > PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's on it >and > > a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking about the same > > things? > >You mean a terminator. And the BNCs are thinnet, aka cheapernet, >10base2. Same speed as 10base5, but shorter (185m per segment instead >of 500m), and with fewer allowed active connections per segment, and >different rules about spacing the taps, which are BNC T-pieces. > >If Stefan's N connector has a 50-ohm resistor in it, it's a 10base5 >terminator. Honestly, it does looks like one brand of 10Base5 terminate we used. [Humor] I got stopped by a cop the other day. He said, "Why'd you run that stop sign?" I said, "Because I don't believe everything I read." --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 31 14:58:24 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:58:24 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> References: <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <424C6470.7010502@atarimuseum.com> Ah, I always thought it was because of the pair of connectors you had to hook up to the 5250 terminals. Curt Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: > >> Looks kinda big, you sure thats not the end of a Twinax cable? > > > It can't be Twinax - Hence the name, Twinax has 2 center conductors, > which come out to 2 center pins, not just one. > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein > zmerch at 30below.com | > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/2005 From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Mar 31 15:11:25 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:11:25 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331144140.0ac24f20@localhost> References: <"David H. Barr" <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331144140.0ac24f20@localhost> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331231037.03381e10@mail.zeelandnet.nl> The brand of these is Transradio (and no, they did not only make RF stuff, they also made computer stuff :-) ) At 22:42 31-3-2005, you wrote: >At 08:49 PM 3/31/2005 +0100, you wrote: >>On Mar 31 2005, 12:01, David H. Barr wrote: >> > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:04 +0200, Stefan >>wrote: >> > > This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is >>this >> > > http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick >>ethernet) >> > > terminator ? >> > >> > Err, wasn't thicknet (DIX) the one with DB-15 / AUI transcievers, >> > vampire clamps, and so forth? >> >>To be picky, DIX != thick Ethernet, or more exactly DIX != 10base5. >> 10base5 uses thick coax but it works slightly differently to DIX. >> Yes, they use AUI cables and transceivers with a DA15 connector with >>that horrible slidelock, and they use vampire clamps on some of the >>taps (last time I fitted one was for a demo two weeks ago), but the >>"Ethernet" cable is the thick coax, with N connectors. >> >> > PS: That connector looks odd to me. My coax net has BNC T's on it >>and >> > a reflector on the end. Maybe we're not talking about the same >> > things? >> >>You mean a terminator. And the BNCs are thinnet, aka cheapernet, >>10base2. Same speed as 10base5, but shorter (185m per segment instead >>of 500m), and with fewer allowed active connections per segment, and >>different rules about spacing the taps, which are BNC T-pieces. >> >>If Stefan's N connector has a 50-ohm resistor in it, it's a 10base5 >>terminator. > >Honestly, it does looks like one brand of 10Base5 terminate we used. > > > > > > > >[Humor] I got stopped by a cop the other day. He said, "Why'd you run >that stop sign?" I said, "Because I don't believe everything I read." > --Steven Wright >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Mar 31 15:08:37 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:08:37 -0500 Subject: Century Data Systems T-50 disks In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:51:49 EST." <200503301351.50090.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200503312108.j2VL8cc8027401@mwave.heeltoe.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >So, I picked up a bunch (5) of Century Data T-50s, (also labelled as >"Diva" disk systems), which seem to be multi-platter 54.7MB removable T-80's or T-300's would be very interesting. That's what the MIT CADR used. I'm not sure what the difference between a T-80 and T-50 is, except capacity. >From what I've been able to pick up people are worried about the media on the disk platters failing. If the disk exercisor & head alignment box will work with a T-80 or a T-300 I will make you an offer (privately). I hold out hope of finding a workable T-80 or T-300. -brad From phirkel at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 31 15:10:16 2005 From: phirkel at sympatico.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:10:16 -0500 Subject: AS/400 P03 Questions Message-ID: Hi folks. I recently acquired an AS/400 P03 "Advanced Portable." This is my first real piece of IBM Midrange hardware, and I have not a clue how to interface with it. I know the OS is a PITA on its own to deal with, but I figure I'll solve one problem at a time. So, I was just wondering, does anybody have any manuals for this sucker (preferably in PDF form!) or know where I can grab them from? There is not a sign of the English manuals for this machine on IBM's website at all. Also, I was wondering if anybody knew how I would go about interfacing with this machine. The DE9 ports on the back of it are definitely not serial ports, and the only other port on it is a SCSI port. Am I missing some cards for this machine? It would almost appear as though the original owner pulled some interface cards for it, but I could be mistaken. Any help would be appreciated! Phil. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Mar 31 15:15:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:15:45 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <424C6470.7010502@atarimuseum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331161222.04852fb8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: >Ah, I always thought it was because of the pair of connectors you had to >hook up to the 5250 terminals. Googling around, I found a good big picture of a Twinax female->female connector: http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;TWINAXF-F;6 And a decent picture of the associated male Twinax terminator: http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;L0209;28 That's Twinax... ;-) Quite often nowadays, Twinax is run on pins 4 & 5 of an Ethernet cable, and have a Twinax Balun on either end... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From acme at gbronline.com Thu Mar 31 15:27:47 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:27:47 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Okay, so out of curiosity I found the listing for the Decmate on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5180062401&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Now, this is a pretty cool looking critter. Please bear in mind that I'm essentially an 8-bit micro guy, and I have no experience with larger machines except for a VaxStation(not counting PC crap, of course). I've always considered getting a larger machine but have never had the space, or the wiring, or the tact required to convince my better half that having such a machine in the house would be a good thing. However, the Decmate has a number of appealing qualities: Small size -- will fit in my HideOut (computer room) "Somewhat" PDP-8 compatible -- a whole new world for me Affordable -- even with shipping it's within my budget Attractive appearance -- looks like a computer my wife can relate to instead of some gargantuan refugee from a '50s sci-fi movie On the other hand, I have some questions (I did a little Googling and have more to do, but I know there are folks here who can answer my questions quickly and accurately): Is it a fair value at $200 plus (probably) another $200 for shipping? Is technical documentation available? What OSes will run on it? (OS/8 ?) Are they available for download? What software, languages, assemblers, etc. are available? How compatible is it with the PDP-8 -- ie, will it run PDP-8 software? Does it have a free serial port so I can download software onto a PC and then serial-transfer it to the Decmate? How expandable is it? What sort of bus does it have? What are the Decmate's disadvantages? Is there a better machine I should hold out for which is small and in the same price range? If it has problems, are there people on this list who will help me troubleshoot the thing (I have a 'scope, logic probe, meter, soldering tools, etc.)? Any and all feedback is really appreciated. Glen 0/0 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Mar 31 16:11:53 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:11:53 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> Message-ID: <20050401001153.23d32cac.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:07 -0600 Tom Peters wrote: > I'm still looking for specs on thicknet cable-- I know the > characteristic impedance is 50 ohms, but if I knew the velocity factor > and losses at VHF (144 - 148 mhz) and UHF (430 - 450 MHz) I could use > the stuff for my amateur radio hobby. As it is, it's gathering dust. AFAIK thick Ethernet cable is more or less RG213. Typical values are 8 dB / 100 m attenuation at 150 MHz and 15 dB / 100 m at 450 MHz and a velocity factor of 0.66. So it should be good enough at least for VHF and depending on length even for UHF. Many OMs use thick Ethernet cable to connect short wave antennas. But make sure that the thick Ethernet cable is unused when you put it outside. Water soaking into the cable through old vampire tap holes is a funny failure to debug. ;-) Ahh, and keep in mind that these cables usually are not UV resistent, so sun light will destroy the outer jacket! Cover the cable if used outside to avoid direct sun light. I have a 50 m spool of Belden 9880 cable. This was special made for thick Ethernet. It has 4 shildings (braid - foil - braid - foil) a foam PE dielectric. Due to the extensive shilding and the same outer diameter as RG213 the dielectric is thiner. So Belden used foam dielectric to compensate this and get the same specs as RG213. I intend to use it to connect my short wave antenna once I get my licence... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 31 16:15:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:15:26 -0500 Subject: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <221d5b544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:03 PM 3/31/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message <1112231392.11253.43.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I'm sure I asked that same question the last time it was on TV - and if >> not, I meant to! :-) > >Heh. I've just spent the last hour looking for photos of some CDC machines to >compare against. Nothing :-/ > >Going by the timeframe, I'd guess it was one of the later CDC Cyber machines, >but the ?1,000,000 question is which one... > >Aaanyway, I've just bought a copy of "PET and the IEEE-488 interface" for a >little under ?8 (due to arrive in a few days - mwahaha), Here's one for $9.67 . I don't know what that is in pounds but it is located in the UK, if it had been in the US I would have bought it already. not to mention the >big box of surplus electronic bits that cost me ?55... > >Speaking of which.. has anyone got some spare 10-32 bolts and locking >washers? What kind, spiral, internal teeth, external teeth or ? I have tons of that stuff. Good aerospace quality parts that I get from taking military surplus equipment apart. Joe I need at least ten of each. They seem to be like gold dust in the >UK - all the suppliers I've tried only carry the metric M-series and imperial >-BA series. Failing that, the contact details for someone in the UK that >stocks 10-32 hardware would be most appreciated :) > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Flash Gordon exposed himself to all sorts of danger. > From vrs at msn.com Thu Mar 31 16:26:42 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:26:42 -0800 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: > Small size -- will fit in my HideOut (computer room) > "Somewhat" PDP-8 compatible -- a whole new world for me > Affordable -- even with shipping it's within my budget > Attractive appearance -- looks like a computer my wife can relate to > instead of some gargantuan refugee from a '50s sci-fi movie Well, sort of halfway between :-). There are also smaller, cheaper DECmates, too. My experience is mostly with the DECmate III. (Hopefully someone will correct me if something I say doesn't apply to the DECmate I.) > On the other hand, I have some questions (I did a little Googling and > have more to do, but I know there are folks here who can answer my > questions quickly and accurately): > > Is it a fair value at $200 plus (probably) another $200 for shipping? That's a subjective call. However, if I didn't already have two (well, one and a half, really), I'd be interested. > Is technical documentation available? Yes. Too lazy to look up the URLs, but they aren't hard to find. I think the hardware info (at least) is available at bitsavers. > What OSes will run on it? (OS/8 ?) Are they available for download? There's a special version of OS/8 for DECmates, I think one of the other OSes also runs on DECmates, but can't remember offhand which it was. It usually comes with a word processing system. Yes. I downloaded a bunch of floppy images a while back. The trick will probably be getting something to write the funky 8" floppies. > What software, languages, assemblers, etc. are available? > How compatible is it with the PDP-8 -- i.e., will it run PDP-8 software? There is a silly incompatibility in the keyboard interface that can cause characters to be lost with some programs, and I found a bug in the console output firmware on a DECmate III that required a 1-word patch to Focal '69 to work around. There is no EAE (extended arithmetic instructions) in a DECmate I, and that software will hang if you try to use it. Also, a lot of software used to use the switch registers, and used to halt to let you look at the lights or change the switches. None of that will work, since the DECmate I cannot continue from a halt. (Since there aren't any switches or lights, you likely wouldn't try to run that stuff anyway.) Most of the programming languages and sort of mainstream stuff will probably run (possibly with minor tweaks). All the process control and funky hardware stuff is (naturally) hopeless. > Does it have a free serial port so I can download software onto a PC and > then serial-transfer it to the DECmate? It should, but you might need a DP278 board. I think the 12 bit Kermit stuff is used for this kind of file transfer. > How expandable is it? What sort of bus does it have? I understand there was an RL02 controller, and some COM (DP278) boards, for the DECmate I. > What are the DECmate's disadvantages? Various minor software incompatibilities, mostly with the console interface. Most of them have been well documented. > Is there a better machine I should hold out for which is small and in > the same price range? The DECmate II is about the size of a large old fashioned PC-AT. The DECmate III is smaller (makes a fine stand for the monitor), but has no second drive bay, so you get just the dual floppy drive it comes with. Both of these use 5.25" floppies in RX50 format instead of 8" floppies in RX01 format like the DECmate I. Both come with a communications port. IIRC, both these machines take coprocessor options which can run some flavor of CP/M. The DECmate II takes an option for a MFM hard disk. These option cards are pretty hard to find, if they don't come with the DECmate when you buy it. > If it has problems, are there people on this list who will help me > troubleshoot the thing (I have a 'scope, logic probe, meter, soldering > tools, etc.)? Should be. I've used my DECmate III a bit, debugged around some compatibility issues, etc. I haven't got 'round to trying out my DECmate I, though. Vince From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 31 16:20:51 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:20:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: Tom Peters "RE: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ?" (Mar 31, 14:38) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> Message-ID: <10503312320.ZM19772@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 31 2005, 14:38, Tom Peters wrote: > It was (is-- I still have a spool of it!) 50 ohm coax with N connectors, > and paint marks at every meter boundary. You had to terminate each run of > thicknet end each end (that's two ends, for those who are counting). > > You had to tap it with a vampire tap ONLY ON THE 1 METER MARKS using a tap > drill tool that would core into the shield and expose the center conductor. Actually, every 2.5m, not every meter. > I'm still looking for specs on thicknet cable-- I know the characteristic > impedance is 50 ohms, but if I knew the velocity factor and losses at VHF > (144 - 148 mhz) and UHF (430 - 450 MHz) I could use the stuff for my > amateur radio hobby. As it is, it's gathering dust. It varies very slightly from maker to maker and even batch to batch, so if it's that critical you'll need to measure it. Indirectly, the 802.3 standard says 0.78; my tables show Belden 9880 VF is 0.78-0.82, attn 1.3dB/ft @ 100MHz, 2.8dB/ft @ 400Mz, 4.5dB/ft @ 1GHz. Sometimes people use RG-8, though, which has VF 0.66, and higher losses. Surely 144-148 millihertz is VLF, not VHF? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 31 16:42:45 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:42:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <3248.192.168.0.3.1112308965.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Okay, so out of curiosity I found the listing for the Decmate on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5180062401&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Now, this is a pretty cool looking critter. Damn right, if I was that side of the pond I'd be all over it. I would say just buy it and bask in the knowledge that you've saved a pretty good bit of DEC kit. Even my Missus said that it looked like an interesting machine and she's seen my MINC out in the garage :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 31 16:41:29 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:41:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ?" (Apr 1, 0:11) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> <20050401001153.23d32cac.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10503312341.ZM19823@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1 2005, 0:11, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:07 -0600 > AFAIK thick Ethernet cable is more or less RG213. Typical values are 8 > dB / 100 m attenuation at 150 MHz and 15 dB / 100 m at 450 MHz and a > velocity factor of 0.66. Too slow. The velocity factor for thick Ethernet is supposed to be around 0.78. You can use RG213 or even RG8 but the maximum size of your network would be slightly shorter, to allow for slightly longer round-trip delays. > Ahh, and keep in mind that these cables usually are not UV resistent, so > sun light will destroy the outer jacket! Cover the cable if used > outside to avoid direct sun light. I believe you can (could) get plenum-rated cable that has a Teflon outer instead of PVC. Teflon is resistant to UV. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Mar 31 16:53:24 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:53:24 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> <20050401001153.23d32cac.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <16972.32612.18019.258074@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: Jochen> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:07 -0600 Tom Peters Jochen> wrote: >> I'm still looking for specs on thicknet cable-- I know the >> characteristic impedance is 50 ohms, but if I knew the velocity >> factor and losses at VHF (144 - 148 mhz) and UHF (430 - 450 MHz) I >> could use the stuff for my amateur radio hobby. As it is, it's >> gathering dust. Jochen> AFAIK thick Ethernet cable is more or less RG213. Typical Jochen> values are 8 dB / 100 m attenuation at 150 MHz and 15 dB / Jochen> 100 m at 450 MHz and a velocity factor of 0.66. The Ethernet spec says 0.77, not 0.66 -- foam dielectric, after all. (0.66 is the usual value for solid polyethylene dielectric.) It also says max of 8.5 dB attenuation per 500 meters (i.e., 1.3 dB/100m) at 10 MHz; there isn't a VHF spec. Then again, it's high grade cable, I'd expect it to do well. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 31 17:09:25 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:09:25 -0500 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331161222.04852fb8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331161222.04852fb8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <424C8325.6070500@atarimuseum.com> Man I'm getting old.... I used to install that stuff back in 89-91 and I've like totally forgotten all about it :-) Curt Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Curt @ Atari Museum may have mentioned these words: > >> Ah, I always thought it was because of the pair of connectors you had >> to hook up to the 5250 terminals. > > > Googling around, I found a good big picture of a Twinax female->female > connector: > > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;TWINAXF-F;6 > > And a decent picture of the associated male Twinax terminator: > > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;L0209;28 > > That's Twinax... ;-) > > Quite often nowadays, Twinax is run on pins 4 & 5 of an Ethernet > cable, and have a Twinax Balun on either end... > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch at 30below.com > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 3/30/2005 From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Mar 31 17:12:16 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:12:16 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> The original poster is running HPBASIC, not MSU Basic. And clearly the source code is not for HPBASIC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Bryan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:57 AM Subject: Re: hp2114 basic > On 30 Mar 2005 at 18:52, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> I don't think this information is at all correct. >> >> For HP's stand-alone BASIC... > > I'm unclear here; to what specifically is "this information" above > referring? > > You describe the operation of an HP product, but the program on Jeff's > site > isn't an HP product. The source starts off with: > > * TIME-SHARE BASIC DRIVERS AND MONITOR > * > * KILE B. BAKER > * JOHN S. SHEMA > * > * DATA RECORDING CENTER > * > * MONTANA STATE UNIVERSITY > > ...and it appears on HP's LOCUS ("Library of Contributed User Software") > tape as items 22255-60001 and 22255-60002. So we're speaking of two > different products. > > >> It assumes you have a 12531 series serial interface in slot 11, and a >> reader in slot 12. It will run perfectly well without using PBS under >> this hardware config. > > HP BASIC might, but the MSU BASIC under discussion won't. See, for > example, the "CHIN1" routine in source file 6: > > LIA 0 LOAD CHARACTER > [...] > OTB 0 NO, OUTPUT TTY BOARD COMMAND > STC 0,C START INPUT > > All of the I/O instructions default to select code 0 and must be > configured > to the actual TTY select code. > > >> The source on the 2100 archive site is for a multi-user basic, not >> HP's 1968 stand-alone basic. > > Yes. > > >> These are two completely different peices of software. > > Hence my confusion with your first sentence. > > -- Dave > > From william.layer at comcast.net Thu Mar 31 17:24:42 2005 From: william.layer at comcast.net (William Layer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:24:42 -0600 Subject: Worst kludge Re: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3.0.6.32.20050330203247.00947360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050331172442.7b9ae70e.william.layer@comcast.net> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:24:30 -0600 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I sold the car and to this day I > would love to have been there when the first mechanic took that pump > apart and saw that pretty flowered diaphragm. > I really need to stop skimming posts by reading them from finish to start.. "He used his wife's WHAT?!" ... ok, it was a shower cap, whew. -- --------------------------------------------- -. William W. Layer .- -. St. Paul, MN USA .- --------------------------------------------------- -. Cheif bottlewasher, Atma-Sphere Music Systems .- -. http://www.atma-sphere.com .- -------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 31 16:55:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:55:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050330203748.0094c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Mar 30, 5 08:37:48 pm Message-ID: > > I'm not so sure. I've never seen a bell shaped bellcrank (in fact, i > don't even know why they call them that). I don't think what Tom was I believe the name comes from the fact that bellcranks were used to 'turn the corner' on the mechancial wires that operated house bells, etc. -tony From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Mar 31 18:04:05 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 01:04:05 +0100 Subject: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0ba681544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: [ PET GPIB book ] > Here's one for $9.67 > n=PET++IEEE-488&sortby=2>. I don't know what that is in pounds but it is > located in the UK, if it had been in the US I would have bought it already. About ?5 plus postage. Not a significant amount less than what I paid for the copy I've got on order. [ 10-32 bolts ] > What kind, spiral, internal teeth, external teeth or ? I have tons of > that stuff. Good aerospace quality parts that I get from taking military > surplus equipment apart. I need a minimum of 10x 10-32 UNF threaded bolts (aka "machine screws"), 3/8in length (or 1/2in) and locking washers. I have absolutely no idea what type of washer, but I'd guess it would be the variety with internal teeth. Basically I just need enough 10-32 bolts to hook five of these capacitors up. The problem being that 10-32 is a standard size in the USA, but apparently not in the UK. "I love industry standards. Everyone should have one." Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Procrastination means never having to say you're sorry. From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Mar 31 18:30:42 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:42 -0600 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <10503312341.ZM19823@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> <20050401001153.23d32cac.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331182851.0c1e9e88@localhost> This is classic frozen yellow garden hose- typical yellow jacket. So not teflon, probably. I suppose if I inspect it closely I might find the old classifications: CMP for plenum, CMR for riser, CM for neither, right? At 11:41 PM 3/31/2005 +0100, you wrote: >On Apr 1 2005, 0:11, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:38:07 -0600 > > > AFAIK thick Ethernet cable is more or less RG213. Typical values are >8 > > dB / 100 m attenuation at 150 MHz and 15 dB / 100 m at 450 MHz and a > > velocity factor of 0.66. > >Too slow. The velocity factor for thick Ethernet is supposed to be >around 0.78. You can use RG213 or even RG8 but the maximum size of >your network would be slightly shorter, to allow for slightly longer >round-trip delays. > > > Ahh, and keep in mind that these cables usually are not UV resistent, >so > > sun light will destroy the outer jacket! Cover the cable if used > > outside to avoid direct sun light. > >I believe you can (could) get plenum-rated cable that has a Teflon >outer instead of PVC. Teflon is resistant to UV. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York [Humor] I like this new idea of voodoo acupuncture. You don't have to go anywhere, you just walk down the street, and all of a sudden, "Ah!" --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Mar 31 18:46:07 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:46:07 -0500 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200504010046.j310k9W2026853@mail.bcpl.net> On 31 Mar 2005 at 18:12, Bob Shannon wrote: > The original poster is running HPBASIC, not MSU Basic. Well, I'm confused. From: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-March/042135.html ...Tim wrote: "Thanx! The files are on: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/ "I tried it out with asm21 and found a few things.... [...] Once compiled, it loads up into simh but running does not seem to do much of anything." I gathered that he was trying to run the MSU BASIC that he assembled from the source files (although I now see that the binaries there don't match the sources, so my comment about verifying the assembly by comparison with the binaries was in error). -- Dave From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Mar 31 19:13:10 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:13:10 -0500 Subject: Looking for MS Money version 3 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D02@mail.catcorner.org> Copy right is 1996, so it is almost on topic. Does anyone have an install disk for this? A very good friend of mine needs to move his data to a new computer this weekend and he can't find his install disk. What amazes me is that he's been running this since 1996 without losing data once. Thanks for any help, (let the scolding begin) Kelly From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 31 19:23:54 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:23:54 -0500 Subject: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featuredin "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <0ba681544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I can get the screws and washers and send them to you for the cost of postage if you can't find them there but I'm in the US so postage will cost a few bucks depending on how fast you want them. Do you need any nuts or anything to go with them? Joe At 01:04 AM 4/1/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >[ PET GPIB book ] >> Here's one for $9.67 >> > n=PET++IEEE-488&sortby=2>. I don't know what that is in pounds but it is >> located in the UK, if it had been in the US I would have bought it already. > >About ?5 plus postage. Not a significant amount less than what I paid for >the copy I've got on order. > >[ 10-32 bolts ] >> What kind, spiral, internal teeth, external teeth or ? I have tons of >> that stuff. Good aerospace quality parts that I get from taking military >> surplus equipment apart. > >I need a minimum of 10x 10-32 UNF threaded bolts (aka "machine screws"), >3/8in length (or 1/2in) and locking washers. I have absolutely no idea what >type of washer, but I'd guess it would be the variety with internal teeth. > >Basically I just need enough 10-32 bolts to hook five of these capacitors up. >The problem being that 10-32 is a standard size in the USA, but apparently >not in the UK. > >"I love industry standards. Everyone should have one." > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Procrastination means never having to say you're sorry. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Mar 31 19:46:59 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:46:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331161222.04852fb8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.0.6.0.20050331194652.028ea930@pop.xs4all.nl> <20050331201533.295bc0f7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331141411.04977bd0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331161222.04852fb8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200504010149.UAA24257@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Googling around, I found a good big picture of a Twinax > female->female connector: > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;TWINAXF-F;6 > And a decent picture of the associated male Twinax terminator: > http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/fullpic?7gsZHtYu;L0209;28 Those are actually pages that contain the pictures. The pictures themselves, for anyone who wants just them, turn out to be at http://www.connectworld.net/iecnet/images/jpeg/L0209.jpg and .../jpeg/TWINAXF-F.jpg. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Mar 31 20:10:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: <0IE100DQALKUPQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050327195632.0092fa90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050331211004.0093e7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Andy, Did you find what you were looking for yet? I went and checked today and found a big pile of 820 disks. I gave all the Xerox stuff away a couple of years ago but I still pick the stuff up when I find it and I had accumulated a lot bigger pile than I realized. Joe At 10:26 PM 3/27/05 -0500, you wrote: >I'm on Long Island, New York. You guys are probably in CA, right? > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Joe R. >Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:57 PM >To: acme at gbronline.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Xerox 820-II > > Yeah, but they're 8" and I believe he needs 5 1/4". > > Andy, where are you located? > > Joe > > >At 06:57 PM 3/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >>Once upon a time Joe Rigdon gave me an 820-II and Don Maslin sent me an >>8" CP/M disk set for it. When I ran out of time and space I gave the >>machine -- and as far as I can remember, the disks -- back to Joe. >> >>Hey Joe, still got those disks? >> >>Glen >>0/0 >> >>Andrew Erlanger wrote: >>> Looking around desperately for cp/m disks for the Xerox 820-II. If anyone >>> has these to share or for sale I'd be very grateful. >>> >>> Thanks, Andy Erlanger >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 31 20:28:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:28:48 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The original poster was talking about MSU basic. Not HP basic. Jay From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Mar 31 20:50:25 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:50:25 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It has a problem with part of it: There is a volume called INTCPM that is corrupted. If anyone else has a copy please let me know, it was part of the DynaSig archive that Don Maslin kept. I am also looking for any documentation for it. What I have works but only looks at one drive, later I'll see what I can do to get it to do more. I intend to get it running on the Imsai Series 2. I have lots of Psystem files on my site if anyone is interested. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From gtoal at gtoal.com Thu Mar 31 20:52:57 2005 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:52:57 -0600 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: <200503311529.j2VFStRq043458@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200503311529.j2VFStRq043458@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <424CB789.mailEGO11I6KN@gtoal.com> and/or papertape?~p I've been out of town and am catching up on a backlog, but a quick grep of my mailbox seems to indicate that no-one has posted this link yet: http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/ G PS Unfortunately there's a small bug caused by him mishandling protection against data injection attacks: you can't enter Algol60 code or anything else with single quotes in it :-( ... e.g. http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/?val='BEGIN' From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:17:27 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:17:27 +0800 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 5:27 AM, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Okay, so out of curiosity I found the listing for the Decmate on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5180062401&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Now, this is a pretty cool looking critter. Yeah. It's a beautiful specimen of early 80s DEC engineering / > > Is it a fair value at $200 plus (probably) another $200 for shipping? > Is technical documentation available? Well that depends on who you're talking too. These are I think the only 3 docs available online for the DECmate (VT278) system. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP01237_278sys_jun81.pdf http://pdp-8.org/scans/an/ek/ek-vt278-hr-001.pdf > What OSes will run on it? (OS/8 ?) Are they available for download? It runs OS278, different enough that AFAIK most OS8 software won't run. The incompatibilities is mainly due to the non-standard non-OMNIBUS hardware boards that it uses. The below is a part of Doug Jone's superb FAQ on PDP8 and it's variants. A new feature was introduced in the 6120 microprocessor: The Group I OPR combination RAL RAR was defined as R3L, or rotate accumulator 3 places left, so that byte swap (BSW) is equivalent to R3L;R3L. RTR RTL remained a no-op, as in the 6100. Also, the EAE operations not implemented in the basic CPU cause the CPU to hang awaiting completion of the operation by a coprocessor. Unfortunately, no EAE coprocessor was ever offered. The printer port offered software baud-rate selection compatable with the VT78 baud-rate selection scheme. The dual-port data communications option was flexible but completely incompatable with all previous PDP-8 serial ports. The console and printer ports are not fully compatable with the earlier PDP-8 serial ports. Specifically, on earlier serial interfaces, it was possible to test flags without resetting them, but on the DECmate machines, testing the keyboard input flag always resets the flag as a side effect. In addition, on the console port, every successful test of the flag must be followed by reading a character or the flag will never be set again. It was not possible to continue from a halt without restarting the machine. The large amount of device emulation performed by the CPU in supporting screen updates severely limits the ability of the system to run in real time. Don't know whether OS278 is available or not or for which media. Have to look for it by yourself. > What software, languages, assemblers, etc. are available? > How compatible is it with the PDP-8 -- ie, will it run PDP-8 software? > Does it have a free serial port so I can download software onto a PC and > then serial-transfer it to the Decmate? Depends on whether it has the optional DP278 board which provides 2 serial ports. > How expandable is it? What sort of bus does it have? Takes in 3 slots at the back (these are not regular OMNIBUS slots, it's proprietary to the DECmate). Slot 1: CPU board + floppy + printer + keyboard Slot 2: Optional (typically DP278 serial controller) Slot 3: Optional (typically RL278 disk controller) The DP278 and RL278 are quite rare nowadays. If your unit doesn't already have them, you'd be hard pressed (at least your wallet will) to find them. Another one of DECmate's advantage is that: You get a VT100 free! :-) [Caveat: This is only if you have a DP278 board. Otherwise you'd have no where to connect it to the host...] > What are the Decmate's disadvantages? > Is there a better machine I should hold out for which is small and in > the same price range? I don't know, but to me: - DECmate 1...wow! Such character, and it's soooo 70s :-) - DECmate 2.. eh? Looks like a PC AT? - DECmate 3.. Is that a computer or an external disk unit? > If it has problems, are there people on this list who will help me > troubleshoot the thing (I have a 'scope, logic probe, meter, soldering > tools, etc.)? The prints/schematics are available. /wai-sun From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:48:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:48:48 -0500 Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: <424CB789.mailEGO11I6KN@gtoal.com> References: <200503311529.j2VFStRq043458@dewey.classiccmp.org> <424CB789.mailEGO11I6KN@gtoal.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 9:52 PM, Graham Toal wrote: > I've been out of town and am catching up on a backlog, but a quick > grep of my mailbox seems to indicate that no-one has posted this > link yet: > > http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/ I did see that, but I was not after a GIF rendering of a punch card... I'm really after ASCII-art renderings. The specific program I was looking for is 'ppt' from the BSD games collecton. I'd be somewhat more interested in Jonathan's 'punchcard' if source were made available. I could write one myself with Tom Boutell's GD library, but, honestly, why re-invent the wheel. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:59:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:59:09 -0500 Subject: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <221d5b544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 5:15 PM, Joe R. wrote: > >Aaanyway, I've just bought a copy of "PET and the IEEE-488 interface" for a > >little under ?8 (due to arrive in a few days - mwahaha), Excellent. A good book if one wants to understand the GPIB at the handshake level (or the 6502-code level). It's obviously PET oriented, so the character-level detail won't directly apply to understanding how HP devices work, but it does do a good job of illustrated how talkers, listeners, secondary addresses, etc., all work. -ethan From bv at norbionics.com Thu Mar 31 13:20:50 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:20:50 +0200 Subject: Popular Electronics Magazine In-Reply-To: <000a01c535a4$aae748c0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000a01c535a4$aae748c0$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 05:49:30 +0200, Michael Holley wrote: ... > > I have almost finished with Popular Electronics and have posted them to > my web site. I will add to the Radio Electronics page next. Oh, thank you! I have been lamenting the loss of my Radio Electronics collection - I just have moved a couple of times too often. > (Thanks to Jay West for providing the space.) I am scanning the > magazines at 300 dpi and storing them as tiff files. May I suggest PNG instead of TIFF? It is a much more compact format, and designed for the web. It is also unfettered by patents and possible royalties. -- -bv From rimmer at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 31 11:37:54 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:37:54 +0200 Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050331193625.02934c78@pop.xs4all.nl> This is probably gonna be a really easy question for you guys; is this http://www.mansier.net/10base5terminator.jpg a 10base5 (thick ethernet) terminator ? Thanks! Stefan. From Tim at rikers.org Thu Mar 31 17:24:46 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:24:46 -0600 Subject: hp2114 basic In-Reply-To: <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <424C86BE.7080405@Rikers.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > The original poster is running HPBASIC, not MSU Basic. > > And clearly the source code is not for HPBASIC. Well running HPBASIC, but trying to run MSU basic instead. I'll get it working when I have more time to put into it. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From tomj at wps.com Thu Mar 31 20:30:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:30:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) Message-ID: <20050331182333.E740@localhost> Last week, in the middle of debugging Kermit (and making headway) the 6070 disk dropped dead (I think the technical word for it is 'sh*t the bed'). I was operating it remotely (ssh to host machine w/minicom) so I couldn't see that the power-OK led went out. Unloaded the heads, powered off, checked for massive damage, etc, powered on, no POWER OK or LOAD. Off for the night. Next day, powered on OK, (power OK led on), LOAD, READY (headload OK) but can't boot; the bootstrap always seems to get wiped out whne the machine shutsdown badly. Can't write bootstrap (from tape). Diags failed; long story short, all of the disk logic seems good, media is fine (whew!), seek and format, but no read-data at all -- can't read sector address headers post-format. All four surfaces the same, so it's not heads or stuff up to the input mux, diags seem to think it's likely in the disk drive. I hope to put the 'scope on it tomorrow and begind debug. The power-OK failure bugs me, though if some driver was able to drag a power supply out of spec for many minutes you'd think there would be evidence of, let's say, excessive power consumption (aka smoke'n'flames). This ain't CMOS. We'll see. Lost a bit of work, but everything was backup onto tapes (multiple tape files each tape, plus multiple tapes). Can't wait til Kermit is running! From bv at norbionics.com Thu Mar 31 04:12:14 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (bv at norbionics.com) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:12:14 +0200 Subject: origins of "kludge" Message-ID: <200504011219.j31CJWBu058181@dewey.classiccmp.org> -- Bj?rn